WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1323 - Robert Eggers

Episode Date: April 18, 2022

Robert Eggers was never into Vikings or hand-to-hand combat or macho stuff. And yet he just made the Viking movie to end all Viking movies, filled with brutal violence and macho posturing. But as he tells Marc, making The Northman was all in the service of his quest to transmit the sublime. Robert and Marc talk the meticulous attention to detail he brings to his films, how he's fascinated by the search for belief amidst ritual and fantasy, and how he grew up loving comic books but would now rather make movies like The Witch and The Lighthouse than a superhero story.  Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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nicks what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast broadcasting from a hotel room. I'm recording this early in the morning, and I feel as though I have to watch my volume. I have to be careful as to how loud I am. I don't want to disturb the other guests. I don't think these walls are that thin. It's an old-ass hotel, but I don't think the walls are that thin. I don't know. I don't know what people tolerate. Generally, I find that people in hotel rooms tolerate a lot.

I do. I do. Sometimes there's nothing you can do about things, even though you feel entitled to be treated a certain way or to have things work out. That's my life lesson for today. Sometimes your expectations, even though they seem reasonable, will not be met and you'll get fucked somehow. And you kind of got to suck it up now because there's very little recourse anymore on almost

any level. Now, I don't know if that's an indicator that society is breaking down, but something is. Or maybe it was just always shitty. I don't know. I don't think so. I don't know. What am I talking about? How are you? I'm sorry sorry what's going on are you okay how was breakfast you didn't eat breakfast why didn't you eat breakfast you should always eat a little something it's good it's an

important meal i've heard it's the most important meal of the day i forego it myself sometimes but i understand so look robert eggers is on the show now he directed the witch and the lighthouse the new film i'm sure you've heard coming is called the northman i saw it it might be genius might be a film genius guy definitely has the uh the kind of uh focus and control over what he wants to come through that camera and for you to, comes from a theatrical background, directing stage productions, doing costume and set design, which helps explain

some of his meticulous attention to detail. But nonetheless, it is a character thing. But I tell you, I will tell you this. I watched all the movies. Now, look, I watched The Lighthouse twice when it came out. I thought it was visionary in some ways. But I went and watched The Witch, his first movie, which I thought was amazing.

Truly amazing in terms of the story, which I'm not a big horror guy or folktale guy. Folktale is more than horror, but I guess they kind of feed one another in certain situations, but the attention to detail, to language, to structure, and to even architecture and tools, ceramics, holes, digging, fences, the forest, costumes, the weirdness. I enjoyed it. And I watched this new film, The Northmen, which is like, wow, holy fuck. You curious about Vikings? Well, you're about to know about Vikings. holy fuck, you curious about Vikings? Well, you're about to know about Vikings. And it's an exciting, bloody shit show,

beautifully shot and amazingly acted and historically almost perfect. I had some experience with Vikings. I was hoping to be part Viking, as some of you recall from my conversations after I visited Scandinavia. But it's nice to have some context and understand that no matter how glorious they may seem, not a great bunch in terms of morality, necessarily. But, you know, they had their own ways, their own religions. I'm not going to ramble

on speculatively about Vikings. I'm just saying the movie's great and I like talking to Robert Eggers. So I'm out in it. I'm recording this in Providence. I will tell you about what happened. I will tell you about, I will tell you because I mean it's an indicator about me but it's also like, I felt I got to call myself out.

So I fly from LA. I leave mid-afternoon because I knew I was just going to land rent the car and drive to uh nyack from jfk so now loyalty for some reason i was pretty loyal to american airlines for a long time now all of a sudden because i have an amex card of a certain type i can use the club at delta americans more expensive So I'm trying to save some money somehow Even though I don't essentially need to It's always good to be thrifty

I have a brain that does that But now I fly Delta Not great It wasn't great this time I flew first class It was an old plane It was a little janky Is that the word I want?

Couldn't get the video to work And you could just feel the age of it The technology of the seats Like when I pushed a button to recline, it was like, gung, gung, gung, gung, gung, gung, gung. And I was like, whatever. Again, I should be nothing but grateful that I have the life I have. I'm not complaining in a genuine way.

These are just, maybe I am, but I'm calling myself out because it's bullshit, man. I'm the luckiest guy in the world. But gung, gung, gung, g the luckiest guy in the world but it was just and you know how come the monitor doesn't work i don't want to be an asshole and i know i can't i don't want to be that guy but but there's part of you that thinks in terms of value or what you deserve right and maybe people can't relate to this but i my screen wasn't working and i had a five-hour flight ahead of me and i wanted to re-watch a movie i didn't really like and so like

i i i really had to decide whether i was going I didn't really like. And so like, I, I, I really had to decide whether I was going to go up to the flight attendant and go like, you know, my, uh, there's someone we can get the video working. And then in my brain went to like composing an email to Delta. It's like, what is first class about? If I can't watch a movie, I didn't really want to watch just because I have the time. So that was the beginning of the problem with my brain, and this only happens in certain situations, and I don't like it, now, again, loyalty, I rent cars at Hertz, they're not the cheapest, they're probably the worst, I don't know much about it, it's just something I've done for a long time, and I'm a gold member, I don't know what that means really, other than I can see my

name on a board, I generally don't have to go to the counter, both of those things are exciting, especially if you travel a lot, hey, look, I'm on the board. What space am I? So I walked a mile and a half to go to the rental car center and I go to the Hertz and it's like 10, it's like 11 at night. I see my name on the board.

And I also saw there was a Hasidic family there. The man was at the counter and the woman with, I think, around seven kids and she couldn't have been 40 was standing there with this, you know, this full arc of age groups of kids was standing there with a look on her face. That was a mixture between PTSD, exhaustion, and just existential displacement. That's what I saw. And she was pregnant again and she and her pregnancy looked exhausted and i don't want to judge anybody but i felt it was heavy because you know i'm a jew

they're jews the difference between us is a lot of kids outfits wigs hats you know ritual but but in that moment happy passover by the way but in that moment i thought this woman's in trouble and this is sad and horrible and uh i'm just gonna walk by her and get my car and then I thought for a minute like maybe I can save her maybe I can save her and then I think my brain went what and then I went out to the parking place I went out into uh the lot to get the car oh yeah I forgot to mention I'm presidential circle what does that mean I don't know I think it just means that you can pick your own car, which is actually more of a challenge

than just getting a car. I like a full or mid-sized car generally. Sometimes I'll get a small car, but not usually. And president circle, I don't know how I got in it or what it means or if it's really a good thing, but they usually have about five, six, maybe 10 mid-sized or full-size cars and you pick it which means for me you never think that you've picked the right car you make your

decision you get in you drive a half hour and you're like fuck why didn't I get the other thing but I get out there and there's two cars in the presidential circle area their trunks are open I'm like I'm about to get in one and there's a guy walking around there's no other cars in this lot and i'm like why can't i get this car he's like those are premium upgrades i'm like i'm presidential circle he's like well premium upgrades are you know that's the next level up and i'm like what does that even fucking mean can i just take this car he's like no they're premium upgrades so in my mind i'm like all right so i'm getting fucked here this is some sort of racket someone's on the take why can't i just have one of these cars i mean how am I not important?

And I'm starting to get angry. And I'm like, all right, so fine. I'm president circle. Where are the cars? He's like, we don't have any cars. I'm like, what does that even fucking mean? I'm on the board. I'm president circle.

He's like, I know, but there's no cars. I'm like, where are the cars? He's like, they're coming. And I'm like, when? What does that mean? He's like, well, they're upstairs and they got to wash them. they gotta wash them like how long and now i think it should be noted here i got nowhere to really go i just want to be you know driving it's late he's like i don't know 15 minutes a half hour i'm like what the fuck is this now and now i'm the yelling man roll with his rolling bag

you know just screaming you know bearded yelling old man in the empty parking lot at hertz at jfk just sort of like this is bullshit where are the fucking cars how does this a business and and then you know the guys like i'm they're coming i'm like when and then i go back over to the cars that are premium upgrade like i'm just like in my mind i'm like i'm just gonna fucking take one of these cars. I don't give a shit. And I roll angrily over there. The guy, the kid's just watching me. And I roll angrily over there to those two cars.

And both, all the doors are locked. So now I'm the angry man who has made a decision to take a stand, take a car, doors are locked, and I check all the doors. So that doesn't work. And then I roll back and I'm like, well, what the fuck are we going to do? Where's my car? And then I pick up my phone. I'm holding it. And I'm like, you know what? I'm going to call Hertz. And who am I going to talk to at Hertz? That was the lamest, most impotent thing I could do. Like, I'm going to call Hertz now and take care of this. I'm like,

I'll be on hold for an hour and a half. And we even get a human being for a half hour, maybe. So make a choice. You want to stand there as cars go by waiting for herds to pick up i could have gone back in but there was a line in there and i have to you know the orthodox lady and their family was there which made me sad but now i'm thinking like i got time to perhaps save the lady maybe i should like in the 15 minutes to half an hour that i'm waiting for a car to come down going let me take you away from this let's go i can get us out of here and just i'll take the kid the one that's in your belly let's just go let's just go you're you're in trouble you're in trouble call my mother from the car mom I met a Hasidic lady a Jewish woman and we're having a baby we're driving

to Florida so 15 minutes go by and I'm just fuming and standing there with this guy who was not being met you know he was being understanding but I was fuming and first car that comes down is like a half an suv i think it's a ford eco sport but it looked new and i you know and i and i was like it comes down i'm like can i plug my phone into that because i can't can i plug my phone into that because that's very important to me that i can get car play and the guy's like yeah but it's not the guy's like, yeah, but it's a small car. So I don't give a fuck. I'm taking it. I'm taking it.

Like, I'm winning. Like, this is my declarative kind of like, fuck you. I'm taking this car. And I drove off. And it might as well have been a tricycle. I might as well have been on a tricycle, flipping the guy off, ringing the little bell. Bling, bling, bling, bling.

Fuck you, man. I won. I won. I won. It's not a bad car. The idea was driving up here to Providence and I did the entire way. I was like, I should have just waited.

Maybe I'll stop at another Hertz and traded it. But the entitlement of it, it's a fine car. It's all fine. I just have that brain. It's like everyone else got a better thing than me. Oh my God, it's so stupid. I did that brain it's like everyone else got a better thing than me oh my god it's so stupid i did almost two hours hour 54 in providence last night was spectacular columbus columbus theater it's a great show for me but i don't know what i'm expecting like i i feel like i'm out here doing the driving on my own just going up there hammering it out heroically for what the joy of doing it the joy of doing it right that's what it is the joy of doing it

so look uh robert eggers i i it was it was good i'm glad we talked. It was intense. He's an intense fellow, but I think he's a tremendously gifted filmmaker, and I'm excited to see how his work unfolds. The Northman, his newest film, opens in theaters this Friday, April 22nd. This is me talking to Robert Eggers. It's hockey season, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So, no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice? Yes, we deliver those. Goaltenders, no.

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Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations,

how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category. And what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. I had avocado on toast in L.A. this morning. Can you believe it?

What a fucking shock. Have you, have you, is that an unusual thing for you to eat? Or is it just the fact that you did it in L.A. and it seems to fit a certain stereotype of our horrible city? Both. Do you eat it regularly? Not super regularly. I, but, but, you know.

Yeah. I had to give up on avocados. Well, there's a lot of them about here. Yeah. Yeah. But then there's all, everything that's going with it politically. Yeah. Politically, culturally, I think. Also.

I don't know about the politics of avocados. Well, I guess it's all the the drug lords owned avocados. Oh, is that true? Yeah. And then I've been in Europe, and you can't really. In London, it's- No avocados. Well, they have them, but they're not very good.

No. Well, some of them are bad here, which is why I got out of it. It wasn't on principle because they were drug lord avocados, but they were just inconsistent. Yeah. And then you go to a nice place you're probably staying a nice hotel where you're like this is an amazing avocado and then you're like where the fuck do they get those yeah and then if you're conspiracy minded people they're aligned with the drug lords clearly clearly for the high-end avocados clearly but uh but you never

you're not out here unless you're doing this huh no yeah not if i can help it so the last time you were out here was around the lighthouse that's right yeah so a couple years ago before the pandemic before the pandemic yeah and uh how's it feel i mean i just got here um like because i was doing press in europe for two weeks yeah and so i'm a little bit turned around oh yeah but trying to take it in stride as willem defoe reminded me and and Alex Skarsgård in Rome, we're not fucking coal miners. So it's all right. He always has little tidbits of wisdom, that Dafoe. Where do you live, though?

At the moment, I live in New Hampshire, but that's temporary. Didn't you grow up around there? I grew up there, yeah. What town? I grew up in Lee, which is of little distinction, but I'm living in a town called Portsmouth that's nice. No, I know about that place. I started my comedy career up in that area.

I was just there. I was in Laconia. Oh, yeah. Yeah, in the middle. I guess that's sort of in the middle. Yeah, yeah. And it's one of these small, weird towns that's trying to kind of revive itself. But driving through that area, because I'd done so much of my early comedy work in those states,

it's kind of, it's beautiful but sad somehow. I agree. Yeah, I used to, I did community theater in Laconia growing up. I was probably at that theater. Oh, really? What theater was it? You don't remember? I don't remember.. I was probably at that theater. Oh, really? What theater was it? You don't remember? I don't remember.

But it was like a real theater. Yeah. It must have been that. There's only one theater there. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then there is another one in Wolfboro that I did stuff in as well. But Laconia Playhouse? Yeah, I think that was it.

Yeah, it's right there on that water. And I stayed at the Best Western Plus. And that was the best hotel they had. I'm sure it was. So your life is dug in there. It had the impact. The New England thing. The New England thing, yeah.

But how did you grow up? Your dad was, he was where? So my dad was at the University of New Hampshire. Okay, a teacher. Well, he became the provost. What does a provost do? It's like the president, basically. Vice president, basically. The standard bearer

for the school? I mean, you know, he's an administrator. Oh, that's it? He was an administrator. What did he teach? Shakespeare. Oh, really? So did you get infused with that? Very much so. Really? All the way through your beginning of life, your dad. For someone to teach Shakespeare, they've got to believe that it's pretty important.

So you must have been fed it pretty early on. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I remember being six and watching Olivier's Richard III and thinking, he's cool. He's kind of like Captain Hook. I can get into this. Richard III and thinking, like, he's cool. He's kind of like Captain Hook. I can get into this.

And seeing, like, Titus Andronicus on stage and thinking it was scary as fuck. And then, luckily, that was followed by A Midsummer Night's Dream. And that was fun. That was fun, yeah. So you understood it. I think I was brought up in an environment where no one expected me. No one said, you won't be able to understand this right but it was just a given yeah you know i mean and this is what we do in this house yeah it wasn't you know and it wasn't like shameful if i'd be like what the what was that but but it was

just sort of you know this is that you know you want a peanut butter sandwich this is like we have this is what we have yeah you know it was Yeah. And your mom was an academic as well. She eventually had a kid's theater company when I was like around 12. She started a kid's theater company, but she wasn't it was an actress and a dancer before I was born in New York. So was it a dream fulfilled or she got out before? I mean, like, was she a working dancer and actor? I mean, she was on One Life to Live and had, like, a recurring role. You know, she had some success.

Pre-procedural New York regular acting gigs. Yes. Yeah. So she was on the soaps. Yeah. Uh-huh. But she wasn't a bitter person around uh acting she no i mean she she was full of uh life yeah yeah well that's good and this is like an exciting

environment to grow up in academics and people who embrace the arts progressive people i imagine yeah and it's i mean it's weird because rural New Hampshire is rural New Hampshire. There's a type of townie in New England that's pretty intense. Yeah. I mean, and I didn't understand growing up that the town that I lived was basically college professors and then more or less rural poor. Right. Yeah. I could really feel

it when i was driving through this time more than i ever noticed when i haven't been here in years i think though thanks to like our last president yeah that you know i mean so yeah my wife and i are both from new hampshire yeah and it is more divisive and in some ways more small-minded than when we grew up the way sure you know in some ways it's not more small-minded but in some ways more small-minded than when we grew up the way sure you know in some ways it's not more small-minded but in some ways it is and it's their lines drawn now well that's the thing and and and it's like you get going to get gas and seeing some like pretty horrific bumper stickers that were around when i was a kid yeah kind of rage against right uh you know liberals indeed yeah it's you know it's uh it's weird or whatever their concept

of liberals are exactly woke people whatever that means yeah whatever that means yeah the tribalization of it is just the the possibility of dehumanization to the point of lack of empathy becomes kind of a pressing right now the the the uh the momentum of uh what seems to be fascism is very real. Yeah. Yeah. Do you have siblings? I do. Yeah.

I've got younger brothers that are twins. Yeah. Oh, really? Yeah. Was that weird? Yeah, it was weird. Like, my first feature has creepy twins. Yeah, it did.

I was just thinking about that. Yeah. Those are like the creepiest i've seen since the shining at least cool well yeah they're based on my brothers it was the syncopation of them that got creepy sure and i guess that's something that happens with twins naturally yeah i mean they my brothers they're identical they're fraternal but they but they look quite a lot of life and but yeah they spoke their own language. Really? Yeah. So now where does he appreciate,

when do you start kind of formulating a vision? Where does it come from? Because it seems that, you know, I don't know if it's a specific vision or an auteur thing, but I mean, when you make a movie, you seem to be very deliberate and know exactly what you're heading, you know, what you want.

So where does that, and what is the, it seems like this last movie, the new one, which I watched, and The Witch, there's a common thread there. There's a supernatural, there's folklore, there's, you know, myth to a degree, right? Yeah, I mean, I'm not very, I stick to what I like, I stick to what I like. I stick to what I know.

But yeah, but I mean, but these are like, there's something about the supernatural and the mythic that kind of must have blown your mind at some point when you were a kid, right? Yeah. I mean, there's nothing that, there's not like a single moment. It wasn't like, you know, the doors of perception opened and everything changed. But I mean, you know, I don't know. Like, people ask me about this stuff, like, all the time. They do?

Yeah, you know, and I think something that I've been saying lately, which seems to work, is that, you know, growing up in a secularized society, there's not a lot, you know, of the sublime, you know, around. So being enamored of the past and with, we'll just talk about The Northman, this Viking movie. Sure. Like, you know, I was never into Vikings. The macho stereotype put me off. We just talked about my childhood a little bit, but you can imagine, like, I was a sensitive kid.

Yeah. Like, you know, sure, I liked Conan the Barbarian, but, like, this macho stuff. You didn't like metal music? I like it now, but growing up, I mean, growing up, like, as a kid, kid, kid, I, like, listened to show tunes, which I can't stand, but, stand but but you know i you know if you did why was that because your mom yeah it was in the house it was in and your performance

if you're doing theater like in a rural area like most of it's going to be musical how old were you i started doing that like starting in elementary school so that was where you were going to laconia to do that that uh yeah theater yeah yeah. Well, that was an adult theater. Oh, okay. And I think we did Hello, Dolly there. And yeah. But you must have liked it at the time. I loved it at the time, yeah.

But now, like- You feel traumatized now? Well, I just, a lot of what I'm into now is kind of a reaction to what I was into as a kid. Like, you know would i liked musicals and i and you know and i liked spielberg and george lucas i mean there's nothing wrong with spielberg and george lucas but you know sure but like that was what what i grew up with and also this disney idea that like every dream you can wish can come true. Now, like, by the way, thanks for that false idea. Yeah.

Because like, I think I couldn't have survived childhood without it. But that's also a parenting idea. Sure. Yeah. But it's also something that's like not real. Of course not. You know. But what are you going to do to a kid?

It's not going to work out. Good luck. You're on your own. Yeah, 100%. But I do think that, you know i i do think you can still maybe tell a fairy tale with a little bit of moral ambiguity that can still be good for a kid uh but but i but um but yeah shakespeare well that's for sure well but that's interesting the idea of secular in that you know because when you're just sort of living in a progressive home

where you make you know where education is is a premium and you're not you're not you're not having a religious life because a lot of those questions is sort of like around hope and and realizing dreams for for people who have belief systems it's sort of tempered by this idea that on the bottom line we're going to be okay sure yeah sure but when you don't have that i guess at a certain age you're like holy shit yeah i'm alone yeah totally so yeah but but but but like having uh having living in a religious uh or mythological system where every single thing around you is imbued with significance is appealing to me. But, you know, that can happen with just paranoia. True.

Yeah. I mean, well, my wife, who's a clinical psychologist, was working on a paper about, you know, folk customs and OCD, you know. I do a joke about that, that like, you know, ritual is OCD. Yeah, for sure. It's like intentional OCD yeah to maintain some sort of stability or emotional stability

yeah so she found that to be true yeah yeah and what was that paper for is it published no it's not it turned into something else now she's writing a book about well I don't know if she wanted me to say this but she's writing a book no all right well it's the same with with the popularity of conspiracy theories that's it that's an untethered world that seems to kind of come back around to Christianity and Jew hate.

But somehow, you know, that is a mythological system. Yeah. It's fleeting and not as well-founded as the Nordic religions or Scandinavian stuff. But it fills the same void. It does, yeah. I mean, look, the only reason why I can see that everyone's so obsessed with superheroes is that that's like the pagan pantheon for today.

And people like the Comic-Con becomes these great religious festivals where people impersonate the gods that they worship. Right. I mean, it's like... But I think what's missing, though, and I agree with that, but the fact that it's a cultural phenomenon

and it is based in a certain amount of fan culture and they know on some level they're not real. So in order for it to be like an effective system, they would have to believe it. Yeah, well, that's too uncomfortable and too vulnerable for today's culture.

Is that what it is? I don't know. It sounds good. That sounds like a good sentence to say. No, I know, but no, I was just like, I'm curious because I think about this stuff all the time.

I mean, there are people that have dug in beliefs around fairly predictable gods that have been around for a long time and they kind of twist and turn those to accommodate them but i don't know what the kids or the culture is really about or how fleeting it is but i know that the fan culture around that stuff and the rituals around that stuff is aggressive and real and i guess fanaticism is kind of a religious thing yeah but

but what's missing is the idea of genuine belief in that in that thing. Right. True. True. And that's and that and I guess that's what I'm trying like searching. This sounds precious, but maybe searching for in the work that I do. definition of sublime is but i think like even like going back to to the witch like in watching that you know that whatever's in your brain where whatever your resources were whatever you're drawing from it doesn't matter if it's something specific but the artfulness of of the composition and whatever attention you pay to detail in and of itself filmically is is uh that in and of itself is a sublime thing so whatever you're doing narratively to approach filmically, is that in and of itself is a sublime thing. So whatever you're doing narratively to approach the sublime is that story thing. But it seems like just in terms of the film itself, you have an intention.

Yeah, well, I mean, the hope, and I'm not saying that I'm achieving this, but the hope is that the whole thing is uh cinema and that like all you know you know the atmosphere is is is an accumulation of all these details of all the the research in the you know physical various multitude of the of the period world but also what's going on what the belief system is and then more importantly within that is is the story and then you know where me and my dp jaron place the camera is very specific and we shoot single camera and we don't shoot a lot of coverage so so the idea is that you know is that we're just

we're constantly pushing forward with one organic thing that is like the film. You know, it should all be one piece. You know, sometimes we get it, you know, not always, but that's what we're kind of striving for. And also because of the attention to the detail and what all these things are saying is that when you frame something like that, you know, it kind of comes off the screen as something almost familiar aesthetically it kind of comes off the screen as something almost familiar aesthetically in painting or whatever has been captured before of that time.

And you must pay so much attention to detail that it rings sort of true to that. Like even in The Witch, which is, they're both in my mind more than The Lighthouse because The Lighthouse has a lot of bits and pieces to it that don't fit together the same way to me. Sure. Yeah. I mean, yeah. But there are moments in that where they look like Flemish painting, you know, where she's in that barn with her head on the table. It looks like a, what's it, the pearl earring guy. Yeah. Vermeer. Yeah. Right. So you're thinking that lighting wise, right? Yeah. I mean, to some degree, like, you know, if you have someone in 17th century clothing and there's light coming out of one window,

like, because that's what would be... No, I get that, yeah. It's going to look like a Vermeer. But yes, like, me and Jaron and my collaborators, we are cognizant of the history of Western art and study it and admire it and consider it. Yeah. You know, for sure.

Yeah. Well, that's good. I mean, but this is like, this is part of it. That's why it's hard. It's difficult for directors to talk about this stuff and why I don't talk to a lot of directors and why directors are wary, you know, to discuss their work, you know, because they want people to take in what they're going to take in. Do you know what I mean? Sure. Yeah. Because, you know, it's hard not to be like to say that you did all these things on purpose,

because as a director, there's a certain element of aesthetic vision and cinematic vision and leadership stuff that all have to come together that you can't really just say like, oh, yeah, that's exactly the intention we had was to make it look like a vermeer painting yeah for sure for sure for sure but like going back to what you're saying before in this this seeming spite towards your younger self uh what was a transition moment where you know you were a song and dance man as a kid and perfectly happy and excited what broke you to to to sort of kind of become more cynical? There was a lot of small things, but like the two, you know, two of the biggest things were two male mentors. One was this Latvian-American painter, Hyman Bloom, who seemed like a wizard to me and was very i didn't totally understand this at the time i was very into the occult and theosophy and would you find his stuff well he was doing a show at the university of new hampshire because he lived in new hampshire and he

became he kind of like we we met him my parents met him and became friends with him but i but you know he was doing these gigantic like six or eight foot tall charcoal drawings of demons on astral planes and i was pretty blown away how old were you 10 and at the time like i was at the time i was into comic books and stuff and i was drawing them and he gave me uh an albrecht durer book and a book of Martin Schongauer and some other Northern Renaissance guys. Like woodcuts? Yeah, woodcuts and engravings. And he was like, you know, if you can draw these,

you can draw anything. And that sort of was like, I practically took all my comic books and set them on fire. You know, not, I didn't, you know, but I did literally kind of put them in file cabinets and became obsessive. And then the other thing was this guy who ran a theater called the Edwin Booth. And his name was Edward Langlois.

And he did sort of like, you know, the Duchess of Malthy and True West, like in a storefront theater in Dover, New Hampshire. And he saw me in a high school play and cast me in a storefront theater in Dover, New Hampshire. And he saw me in a high school play and cast me in a show that he was doing. And then later on, I did a senior directed play with my friend, Ashley Kelly-Tata, who now directs Experimental Opera. I did a play of Nosferatu. And he saw that and brought it to his theater to do a slightly more professional version of it and you know and i think if there was anything still left over of uh commercial tastes it kind of died with that nosferatu oh yeah yeah because of uh uh what specifically in the story do you think well i just think it was just it was like um it was it

was just we we were doing something different and yeah and and and also you know ed's taste was was seemed to me to be very sophisticated and and elite and uh and it kind of just you know changed the lens in which I viewed things. Blew your mind. Blew my mind. Yeah. It's an amazing thing when that happens. And I think it can still happen.

It must happen for you. Maybe not as dramatically. No, no. It can't happen the way that it did in your childhood through your 20s. I think it kind of, you know, after 25, it happens less and less. But it's interesting when something's put in your head that makes you reconfigure how you see everything for sure and i and i'm sure like i think that i think that for me i need to be in a pretty dark place

in order to be ready for something really big to to shake me and you know now oh now not not then right now like i need to be like in a place where of of near despair to then be like awoken to something new well well i guess you know because even even if i see a movie that like really fucking surprises me and inspires me yeah like nothing's going to inspire me the way the films did when i was younger you know when i hadn't seen as much stuff and what was uh what was being introduced to you as films you know post your uh your kind of a rebirth into darkness there you know outside of commercial films well so in high school it was still you know there wasn't a lot of stuff available in rural new hampshire so like you know so tim burton was like a god of someone who was

doing something different and then but then oh wow terry gilliam like that's really interesting in rural New Hampshire. So like, you know, so Tim Burton was like a god of someone who was doing something different. But then, oh wow, Terry Gilliam, like that's really interesting. Oh, David Lynch, what's that about? And like Julie Tamer's Titus

was at the video store. Oh, oh, oh, oh. You know, but then when I moved to New York, like then I... Where'd you go to New York? How old were you? 17, 18.

I was like an acting conservatory. So that was the deal. You were going to do the acting. Well, I wanted to direct, but I had terrible grades. I didn't know how I would become a director. And getting into this acting conservatory got me out of Cal Hampshire and into New York. Now, the grade thing, was it just because you weren't interested in certain things and interested in others? I was interested in acting and playing music and drawing and what do you play uh i played bass in various bands punk bands

no no uh i we it was started out as a classic rock cover band oh yeah and then like a blues band and then i and then i had like a kind of large kind of kind of funk band and then and a small jazz ensemble that I played with and and I thought I was I was maybe going to go to Berkeley actually but then Nosferatu like I got accepted to Berkeley to play bass but then when Nosferatu happened I that's when I knew that that was what I knew. Wow Nosferatu killed everything about your childhood. But you know yeah that's cool. No, I know, I know. Because you must have been

a pretty good bass player to get into Berklee. I was good enough to get into Berklee, but I really wasn't, I was good enough, I would work, I work hard at the things that I care about,

but I wasn't really cut out to be a musician. But I'm really grateful to that. I'm really grateful to, like, Mr. LaForce's music history class in high school, because, like, you know, the Northmen, the score, to that i'm really grateful to like mr laforce's music history class in high school because like you know the you know the northman the score like you know none of my movies work without the score

right but the northman being this such a big film like i think it's two hours and 15 minutes and we robin carolyn and seb gainsborough composed two hours of music. Yeah. And I need to be able to communicate with these guys. Yeah. And thankfully I can. Right. You know. Because of that. Because of that.

The integration of everything that came before. Yes. Huh. So how much theater did you do other than that Nosferatu that was stuff that you felt was, you know, within this new point of view? Were you able to?

I did some Shakespeare. I did some Ionesco. At that theater? At that theater. And then basically I was like a working actor in New York doing off, off, off, off, off, off Broadway, playing a lot of Shakespearean villains. And then I kind of felt like, you know,

the directors that were directing me, I couldn't be worse than them. So then me and my friends, like we started our own theater company. In New York. In New York. And we're kind of doing that kind of thing. And when you say that the painter.

Hyman Bloom. Hyman Bloom. Is he still around? No, he died. He lived to be almost 100 or maybe 100. Do you own some of his work? A little bit, yeah. Yeah.

Now, when you say that you found out later or that he was into the occult was that because like when you first realized that that stuff's going on i mean i was in my 20s and i and if you have an open mind to it it is kind of a mind fucker so to what degree did that enter your brain um i think uh i mean this was like shocking to me like in a new yorker article but but what just just like my jerry and my dp like asked me what my biggest fears were and one of them is like believing you know uh because i think period well i this is both this because now we're saying like we're really are saying i want to believe and now i'm saying well believing leads you know but but can lead to madness you know i mean like absolutely you know i mean and that's well

that's what the witch is about well sure you know and and i think i mean that's certainly what the lighthouse is about yeah and uh whatever that's about but but i think you know most occultists like unless they are 100 charlatans like and end up mad and penniless you know because once you believe it's real right and and then you're all of a sudden you're uh a pariah you know what you know whether you see it that way or not. Yeah. You probably see yourself as a seer, but you know. Yeah. But there's just people looking at you going like,

what is that guy yelling about? Yeah, totally. So that's a fear. Sure. You don't want to be the yelling guy. Well, I mean, when I was researching one film, I was like getting really, really, really, really, really deep into stuff. And I remember I was on this airplane being like,

oh yeah, of course, oh yeah of course like of course these spiritualists weren't talking to dead people they were talking to elemental spirits obviously and then i was like fuck dude like you need to calm down gotta pull it back a little bit yeah well i mean there was it probably was just the logic of these stories yeah yeah yeah not like you know like i know i talked to elemental yeah. Not like, you know, like, I know, I talk to elemental spirits. Yeah, but you know, then you realize it's a slippery slope.

No, I know, I got, I was, you know, I cocaine-ed myself into psychosis. Yeah. You know, when I was a kid for a couple years and everything was connected, man. Yeah. And it made solid sense. Yeah, yeah.

I see the signs. Yeah. But the weird thing is, is that not not unlike filmmaking if you get enough people to believe you can bend reality to your will i mean it doesn't mean it's real but i mean that momentum that you know is fascism or anything else or or even you know nationalism of any kind or even you know any religion you're bending reality and you're bending people's will to comply with this thing. That is a way to have interpret.

But when you do, let's just go through. I want to talk about all the movies if we can. I think we can. There's not a million of them. There's three. There's three. Yeah. So The Witch, what is the seed?

I mean, what is like, you know, this is, where did it grow from? I had made some short films, finally made one that wasn't terrible. My most terrible short film that I'm ashamed of, someone posted it online somehow. I don't know. Did you try to rid the world of it? I tried, but it appeared like a month ago or something like that.

Where was it? It had to be somebody who, because I submitted to a bunch of festivals, only got into one because it was so bad. So maybe somebody was like, oh gosh, like... I have this. I have this. I really don't know.

I really don't know. Anyway, and I started writing features after a different short film that had some momentum. But everything I wrote was to... Basically, the scripts I was writing were to genre-less. And so The Witch was my attempt to write something in a definable genre uh that i could still be myself and i would thought okay well i'm not gonna have any money so i'm gonna have to probably make it in my proverbial parents backyard so it should be in new england

what's the archetypal new england spook witches and and you know and i'd grown up really interested in this and grown up because of my dad thinking and and you know and i'd grown up really interested in this and grown up because of my dad thinking about like you know people who grew up during the reign of queen elizabeth were tromping around like as puritans in the woods behind my house and uh you know and those were kinds of the things that were the seed of of the witch and also the seed of america yeah like it's you know pre like there was some you know weirdos here pre-revolution i mean no i mean the people the the the pilgrim fathers as they call them england were crazy you know these people were on the one hand like the intelligentsia but

on the other hand like religious fanatics total cult weirdness yeah new land yeah absolutely absolutely i mean they were coming here because they were weird where they were right you know and the and the the pilgrims as opposed to people who started the massachusetts bay colony they went to you know to fucking the netherlands they went to the netherlands uh because they could have religious freedom there but then they were like all these people are way too liberal. Like, we can't go here. So they all decided that they would, you know. Go where there was nobody.

Yeah, well, to the quote, new world, where there's quote, nobody, aside from, you know, all the native people. Right. So, okay. So that was the setting. And then you start to put together. Okay, so that was the setting. And then you start to put together.

So how does the sort of attention to what you talked about before, this continuity idea that not a lot of cutting, slow movement in big shots. And I imagine to build that barn and stuff must have been something. Yeah. I mean, look, basically I like doing things historically accurate accurately or attempting to there doesn't make it better but it is what i like to do um because it it i feel that it grounds me in the film and i and i also feel that it's in some ways it's a shortcut to having as many details as possible because you don't have to waste time inventing things you can just like find them, you know,

it's not like, what's the coolest chair. It's like, let's make a museum replica of that chair. So you, oh, really? So you have,

you know, you have people using old timey tools and stuff. Yeah. With the, with the witch, it was small enough that we were really able to build it like kind of the way they built it for the most part. Yeah.

Uh, and certainly everything, anything that was, uh, on screen was made with period techniques. And everything in their house, I knew every object that would be in their house based on wills and inventories,

again, because the world was so small. And luckily, people like movies. So even on my first film i had some really great historians uh advising on the film and willing to talk with me and my production designer and costume designer uh on you know how to do it right and now when when you tell a crew that you're going to do it that way are they excited or are they like wow well it's it's you know with the witch um you, the production design team is really excited, costume department is really excited. But in general, you know, it was my first film and we were trying to do some weird things.

And I think I had to prove myself. So there were certain, some people in the crew were really excited and some people were like, who do these punks think they are? Right. You know? Yeah. And then with The Lighthouse, it was a different story because i was established and then also nova scotia was having a hard time uh with the film industry so so basically how so well they they had taken away some tax incentives so people weren't making films right there yeah so basically it was like okay this guy knows what he's doing and we also want to like prove that we know how to make films really well in Nova Scotia, you know, and then on the Northman, like I made two movies that prove myself. But at the same time, now I'm talking, we're talking about a $70 million movie versus like a three and a half or $11 million movie. And, you know, and so, you know and and we had a very very very experienced

crew i'm still working with my same heads of department that i've been working with the whole time you know but with these experienced crew members who worked on game of thrones and ridley scott and and you know and would say like well this is how you do a scene like this and we would say thank you that's great that you know that's how you do a scene like this but occasionally we'd have to say well but not on this one. Yeah. Not on this one. Was there like tension? No, because these guys are professional,

but, but, but certainly maybe quietly, some people were like, who do these kids think they are? You know, but hopefully there will be even less of that. But I didn't feel that.

I didn't feel that. Honestly, the crew was awesome. And I think they were excited that we were doing something different. And you work with several of the same actors because you like them, I imagine. It's like that woman, what is her name? Anya. Anya Taylor-Joy, yeah.

To see her as a kid and then to see her as an adult, like how old was she in The Witch? She turned 18 the day before we started shooting. Oh, okay. Yeah. You say that defensively. Did I? She was old enough. She was old Oh, okay. Yeah. You say that defensively. Did I? She was old enough. She was old enough to do...

Yeah. Well, yeah, I mean, she's got some... Like, in The Northman, there was definitely something devastating about her without doing very much. She... You know, she's got a lot of power, and she's able to be ethereal and grounded at the same time, and she also, like, you know, she's, uh, she's got a lot of power and she's able to be ethereal and grounded at the same

time. And she also like, you know, imbues the text with a ton of subtext, you know? Yeah. Uh, I mean, that's how she was able to do that early modern English so well. And when she was a kid in, in the witch, you know, and, and here she doesn't have the same amount of dialogue, which he's still able, like, you know, a small line she doesn't have the same amount of dialogue which he's still able like you know a small line can be just a big gut punch i mean she's extremely talented well that's interesting about imbuing uh you know subtext because it seems like that's what all your actors do they have to be able to do that yeah certainly i mean with this film there's a lot less dialogue than in my other films so yeah in the northman so you definitely have to do that but i think in some ways like i will compliment myself and to say to say that it

was well cast you know it was well cast and and because the characters in some ways are archetypes like alexander skarsgård believing that he's a a viking looking like he's a Viking, in this landscape, with this horrible weather, with this heightened dialogue, kind of just needs to say the lines. You know what I mean? And it's working. Sure. So you really got that English in The Witch. I mean, you really went out of your way to talk to the academics on how to present that. Yes.

Yeah. So tell me, going into the lighthouse what was the seed of that well took a long time for anyone to want to make the witch and at some point i thought i'm never going to make the witch i need to make a smaller movie and my brother had an idea for a ghost story in a lighthouse uh and he was wanting to write but but and basically it wasn't working out so i asked him if i could steal the idea so i was trying to write, but, but, and basically it wasn't working out. So I asked him if I could steal the idea. So I was trying to write something cheaper and smaller, but then I realized you can't have a lighthouse movie without a storm, which was going to be more expensive.

So then I shelved that idea. But then after the witch came out, I was trying to do these big studio projects. There were things that came from me that I wrote, but they were big. And I just didn't have the, uh, the clout to have to kind of have any kind of power at all. And so, so I called him my they were big, and I just didn't have the clout to have any kind of power at all.

And so I called my brother and said, let's work on the lighthouse on the side so that I have a backup because I have a feeling like none of these are going to happen. What were the other ones? I was doing a big medieval knight movie. Oh, yeah. And then Nosferatu. Right. And so then, and also like a Rasputin miniseries. None of those are happening.

Not at the moment. But yeah, so then, so we started working on the lighthouse together. But when he said, you know, ghost story in a lighthouse, I pictured this crusty, dusty, musty, rusty, black and white, boxy aspect ratio movie. I didn't know what the story would be, but I had the vibe and the atmosphere in my head. And so then we kind of went from there. And what is it about to you? I mean, it became a movie about toxic masculinity, which wasn't sort of the intention. It was just trying to make a story about two lighthouse keepers and one that goes crazy.

But there's something about identity. There's there's a lot of things, you know, but but it is it was deliberately meant to be an obscure movie. And it is sort of, I recognize that it's kind of one scene over and over and over again with slightly higher stakes. But it's interesting to me, somebody as decisive and meticulous, and I guess this happens when you direct or when you write or anything, like directing, putting that thing together, you don't know what it's going to reveal to you ultimately, no matter how much control you have over it. Well, but the other thing too is that i'm never trying to make a movie with

a message because the whole my whole sort of sort of my whole sort of way in is like how do i present the mindset of the people in this world in this period without judgment you know without judgment and just put it out there now i understand that there's certain things that i'm showing about myself even though i'm trying to not show anything about myself about you as the artist yeah i mean like you know when i one of the first journalists i spoke to in france was said you know you don't in the northman you don't you always all the sexual violence is implied you don't show it and that's saying something to me about me even though i'm saying like i'm showing the viking

mindset without judgment but to the degree that i'm successful like you know when it when i made the witch you could still email me but then a lot of like crazy people started about what uh just people saying i was like stealing their dreams and stuff like that when you do when you yeah but before but leave that out yeah i had you know kind satanists saying like you believe what i believe right you know and also kind conservative christians saying you believe what i believe you know that felt good yeah because it was a broad varied well but also again like it's like presenting it without judgment that's what i mean yeah yeah you got a lot of input from a lot of interesting areas well i get that i i get the and and also like i i think that i just before so i don't forget it in in the witch there seems to

be an appreciation and it's in the same with the new movie and probably in the lighthouse a bit of nature and the power of it, you know, it's not in the lighthouse. No, the whole movie is like outdoors. And you know, yeah,

but I mean, I'm just, I guess I'm romanticizing because like, you know, Iceland and the hills of new England are, are, are, you know,

the, the, that, but I, but, but I do, but I do think that in all of my work are, you know, that, it's a difference. But I do think that in all of my work, it's more like nature's, to me, is expressed more like a 19th century romantic painter where, like,

I'm in awe of it, but it can kill you. Right, that's exactly it. You know. But that, you know, but you integrate that. I mean, she rises into the trees. And in Northman, I got to see that tree of life a few times. And in the lighthouse, yeah. I mean, I guess I just picture that it was just this brutal thing that was always there.

You weren't moving through it as much in my head. Well, no, because you're stuck on an island. But in the Northmen, because I thought it was amazing. I loved it. Right away, because of the intensity of the violence and the savagery of it, and then also the mention of Kiev just in passing, it does resonate brutally with what's going on in the world. Yeah. Like, it doesn't have context in terms of the politics, but in terms of violence, it resonates in a very deep, disturbing way because of what's happening now in the Ukraine. Yeah, I mean, we, you know, I set Act II originally in the British Isles, and Alexander Skarsgård, this is, you know, three years ago or whatever, said, you know, we've seen that a lot. Like, let's go to the land

of the ruse uh instead and i you know and this this sounds like an awkward thing to say now but it's true but like i i'm really into ukrainian folk culture and so i was excited to do that you know and and and yeah we had we obviously we had no idea that, that, you know, that like having Act Two in the film be an ancient Ukraine was going to mean what it means. Yeah. You know, and, and I think, you know, again, I mentioned that I was never into Vikings and what, and it was going to Iceland, not a newsflash that the landscapes there are incredible but they were so like awe-inspiring that they led me to pick up the icelandic sagas and that's what got me into this culture and to see like oh this is a complex culture it's a culture of incredible technology like their world was as much smaller than we think because of their ships and because of the trade routes and it was a

culture of cultural fusion and religious fusion you know i mean in terms of tribals well in terms of in terms of fashion and really like like different religious traditions would would shift and change along these borders i mean and this is not religious but just this is just you know fashion who cares but but you know amleth's medallion that he wears is an arab coin you know but the stereotypes that made me not interested in vikings in the first place like were true as well so yes they're incredible but really incredible poets and visual artists but this but also this patriarchal extreme violent culture is horrifying but then you say we haven't changed we have not changed at all and that is uh

you know the most depressing the most depressing thing that that human nature may be barbaric and the possibility of change is futile in a way almost. It is futile. It's 100% futile. Like there's nothing you have to be a pessimist as a realist. You know, just open your eyes. Or at the very least a cynic. But you have to choose to be an optimist anyway. You have to always fight against it.

Right. I mean, if I wasn't an optimist, like, against my better judgment, I couldn't get out of bed. Sure. But that's that darkness you talk about that kind of inspires you in a way. That is where the catharsis happens. Yeah. Yeah. The catharsis happens.

Yeah. Yeah. Is to get some sort of vision that will enable you to have the, I don't know if you call it hope, but at least the idea that you can hold that stuff back. Yeah. Right? The will to do. Right. Right. To bend reality into your, you know what I'm saying?

What you do is occult, almost. Sure. Sure. Filmm almost. Sure. Sure. Filmmaking. Yeah. I mean, there is a way and there is a magic to it. I mean, like, let's be real. Sure.

Of course. Of course. I mean, that's why there's, like, so many people are dealing with celluloid again. I mean, the idea of film. Yeah. And there is something. Me too. You did it.

Yeah. And you love it. I do. So these stories, though, I mean, like, I'm not a Shakespearean guy, but, you know, I was talking to my buddy Sam Lipsight, and he brought it to my attention that, and I think it's in some of the press as well, that this was one of the sources of Hamlet. Yeah, this Scandinavian folktale, Hamlet, was, I mean, you know, the primary plot is is from the scandinavian source which by the way i didn't know you didn't which i was so fucking embarrassed oh yeah like it just i don't know i guess did your dad know i'm sure he did but saxo grammaticus doesn't sound very nordic so i guess like reading it danish saxo grab it because like whatever it just didn't lodge in my head yeah uh

but the great thing is is that everybody knows this story everybody knows this story and like yeah like this movie deliberately has an incredibly simple plot because i wanted to be able to explore and share with broader audiences like the ritual culture and the mythological culture and the religious culture in a way that you can't usually do in movies this size. I don't think everybody knows the end, though. No, no, no. I mean, you know, it's not Hamlet. Well, but I think that...

The struggle. The basic story. The revenge journey. The basic revenge journey you get, you know? Right, right. So hopefully you're not lost when severed heads are talking in people's minds or whatever. Well, that's just the fun part. But tell me about the research on this because I like the supernatural element of it.

I think it weaves in well. It doesn't seem ridiculous. And right at the opening of the movie, you know you're the shot is i i is a volcano about to go right which is just a vision of the future yeah but uh and also the landscape's amazing but i thought you wove together the myth and and what appears to be a a very studied um vision of what life was like. Yeah, and I think, I mean, so, you know, I'm working with like the greatest Viking archaeologists

and historians like on the planet. You are? Yeah, on this movie. Are they there? Where are they? You know. Do they teach at colleges? Yeah, yeah.

Like Neil Price is in Sweden and Terry Gunnell is in Iceland and Joanna Friedrichsdottir, who's Icelandic, I think she's in Oslo. So you reached out to these people while you were writing? Yeah, so we had once, so Sean, who's like this incredible Icelandic poet and novelist. The co-writer? He's the co-writer. Basically, like, I think, I'm working on something with Sean that has nothing to do with Vikings or Iceland.

Like, he's a Brilliant brilliant incredible writer. So you met him before you met him before Yeah, I had this idea before I had before I had this idea, but then once once this was good like what happened was Start thinking of Vikings to that trip to Iceland, which is the trip where I also met Shion Okay, yeah, Then a couple years later, Alexander Skarsgård and I have lunch. Yeah. And he says, like, I've been dreaming about making a Viking movie since I was a kid, and I've been trying really hard the past five or ten years to do it. And so I kind of walked away saying, well, let's try to make a Viking movie together.

So then I knew I needed an Icelandic co-writer. Yeah. Because, you know, even the Icelanders icelanders and most allergic to vikings knows what viking saga characters they're directly related to uh-huh and uh and they you know many contemporary icelanders still believe in land spirits and fairies so someone who grew up in that cultural milieu i i needed and so that was shown so anyway once this movie became more real and we had a good script then we started sharing it with these historians who gave us more feedback and they worked with us all through production you know and and mostly in prep uh but sometimes we'd be on set saying like you know what how do

we do this burial mound you know or whatever whatever it is like you know like whatever it is and and and right up to the very end the the last title card of the film that is subtitled the northman yeah actually says the saga of amleth or amleth the saga and uh and after we i'd finished the movie i'd like left london everything was done neil price emails me there's a there's a rune typo on the final title card of the movie. Really? Yeah, so we had to go in and fix that. Wow.

He caught it. He caught it. He would have been probably the only one. He said there was about 40 people who would notice. Thank God you got that right. But in terms of your experience with, it seems like this guy the guy you wrote it with what's his name so his his writing moved you before anything else i mean you you know you like his stuff you know he had a story where someone's dying and they're having this religious

reverie in their death of understanding everything while they're shitting their pants and remembering they left the stove on huh come on so you love that's the next movie yeah it takes place in one room what what did you uh in in doing this thing because like i visited i was in sweden briefly and was able to go see that ship that they have preserved there in stockholm you know the one uh which i i don't know anything about viking culture and i and i went to see some of the other ships and stuff but you start to really realize like holy shit these guys really had it together on some level yeah but the burial mound stuff and that ceremony that you got like that was devastating yeah and that's that so basically there is a an Arab ambassador named Ibn Fadlan who saw a Viking funeral.

Their god was probably Othin, so the ship was cremated so that it would go up to Valhall. Here, their god is Freyr, so it's a burial. But in any case, other than that, it's the same. It's what Fadlan described, including the sacrifice of the enslaved woman to be his wife because he didn't have one. Oh, okay. So that was what that was. I mean- What if he did have a wife? Would she have been sacrificed?

There are ideas that maybe that was the case sometimes. But, you know, Neil Price, who's one of the historians we worked with, likes to say that, like, all these burials have different stories, but we don't know what the stories of all of them are. Right, what begat what? I mean, the Egyptians did that too, in a way. Does one come from the other, or was there a mingling that you know?

Did you talk about that? About Egyptians specifically, no, but obviously there are things in... Oh, the journey with bring your stuff. Well, yeah, bring your stuff. But it's interesting how, like, we talk about these trade roads and the fact that these ships moved around. There's traditions in medieval Iceland that are surrounding the undead that still happen in 20th century Romania. The same thing. it's it's interesting

it just sticks right yeah and that well that's the you know the depth of that i i imagine that something about what you were talking about when we started in terms of uh you know secular country and and sort of like you know being you know marvel movies and everything else is that like if you don't like and i'm a jew that doesn't practice but this stuff runs deep and it runs back far like a long time you know and in very small ways it kind of has a life that keeps going even if you don't practice yeah so i imagine some of this stuff that you said at the beginning your your quest to to at least you know engage or or transmit the sublime you're you're drawing from these this in this movie in particular in and in the first one these resources that are

kind of ancient very and you know and and i wonder if you uh do you feel like you you hit it a little bit? The sublime with this movie? You know... When you look at it. I cannot watch The Witch because I'm proud of it and I'm not saying it's shitty or anything and I'm very proud of the performances, but it was my first film and I couldn't get what was in my imagination

onto the screen fully. But which part? The supernatural part? Just in general, it just doesn't live up to my expectations. Okay. The lighthouse, I have a feeling, I can see that you're maybe on the fence about the lighthouse, but on the- No, no, I loved it.

It was hard for me to- I loved a lot of it, and I liked the know I liked the dynamic between them and I liked the lighthouse I just can't keep it together in my head you also don't have to like the lighthouse no no no I'm just saying

the through line's different yeah well there's the through line is like not very much of a through line right but that was really

I mean that's so close to what I had in my brain yeah so like I'm very proud of that right now this film is kind of mixed.

Like some things I'm super, like really how I imagined it and some things not just because the scale was so exponentially larger that like I couldn't quite reach what I was reaching for.

And so I look forward on the next film to kind of scale it back a bit and learn what I learned, like use what I learned on The Northman to be able to kind of. Yeah. But I think, I feel like you did the landscape justice.

Thank you. Did you? Yeah. For the most part, for the most part, but it's just, it's like, um,

it's certain like intangible things. Sure. But, but are they solvable problems to you? Um, like, is it like a thing you watch it and you're like, if I... Yeah, I mean, now that I've made The Northman, I could make it again a lot better, but I already made it.

So like too late, you know, that ship has sailed. I mean, you know, Ethan Hawke was there the day we rewrapped and he put his arms around me and Jaron. He's like, well, congratulations, guys. I mean, man, you guys did everything you could possibly do in a movie in this movie so like now you can do anything i mean you can't do car chases and like helicopters stuff but you want to do that anyway rob you know and jaron and i look each other's like yeah now we know how to make this movie yeah right this one yeah yeah but but but you know but like like thank god that i don't know how to do everything thank god like I'm stretching myself and learning and have something to, like, strive for.

You know, like, Olem Klimov, after he made Come and See, was like, well, can't make a better move than that. I guess it's time for me to, like, you know, pack up my bags. Did he? No, I mean, that's it. That was the end, you know? Yeah. It's so rare that an artist of any kind really has that moment confidently. If, yeah, I think that, I think, I think if you feel like you're, like, in ship shape, you're probably sunk.

Yeah, right. But in terms of shooting, like, how much did, because I watched The Silent, the old witch. Do you remember? Like, how much did, like, earlier films Silent, The Old Witch. Do you remember? How much did earlier films... Like Hexen? Yeah, Hexen. So, there are moments in your composition and when you shift from

these wider, longer shots to the framing in intimate shots, that strikes me as sort of Silent era-ish. Do you find you're a fan of that stuff? Yeah, I'm definitely a big fan of silent cinema, and also, I mean, you know, Hitchcock, who came up in silent cinema, you know, would always, and I do this too, would always, you know,

watch his movies, like, without any sound to make sure that you can, like, follow it. And that's what helps it be, like, imagistic and cinematic. Yeah, and I find that they what helps it be like imagistic and and cinematic yeah and i and i find that they're like i like that in the bookends of your films there's a a circle of dancing naked people that's important yeah seems seems to be like like nudity and fire like yeah yeah but that's like old old timey stuff man yeah um and also i congratulations on that's like old timey stuff, man. Yeah. And also, congratulations on that turn. Like, Nicole Kidman's turn in this movie, in the character, was kind of, she really fucking did it, man.

Well, that's one of the scenes that I'm very proud of. Dude, that was fucking good. Thank you. Yeah. Is your dad around still? Yeah. Oh, he is. So, what's his input? What does he say about your work? Out? Yeah. Oh, he is. Yeah. So what's his input?

What does he say about your work? I'm kind of curious. Your parents? I mean, look, I'm lucky to have incredibly supportive parents. Yeah. I mean, I was talking to this guy who's really massive in the industry, who's like around 80 years old, and he was sculpting as a kid. Yeah. And his father would just like smash his shit

and just totally discourage him. Yeah. And to see that the strength, the ego strength that this guy had to get to where he is in the industry today is like amazing. I had the opposite. I had like support. Yeah um what is the next thing

you think uh i'm just i unfortunately have to be elusive because i keep running my over the years i've run my mouth off about things i'm trying to do and they don't happen and then i feel like right awkward and i'm having to like you know well let me ask you about this nosferatu uh sure obsession what you know what was left undone with the other two or three versions of it well they just i mean the that fell apart twice you know it's like your movie did my but i mean but i'm talking about the movies why why oh why bother yeah yeah i mean maybe maybe the ghost of more now is is saying, drop it, buddy. Like, I made a masterpiece, like, that, you know, influenced all of cinema. Herzog, because of, like, German history and, like, German cinema history,

had the right and needed to do that, like, as a sort of part of his personal path. And, like, forget about it. Uh-huh. Like, forget about it. Yeah. Maybe he is saying that. I guess you'll just have to figure that out. Yeah. But thanks for talking, man. It was good talking to you. Yeah, it was a pleasure. Thank you. There you go. Huh? I'm telling you, the guy might be a genius.

The Northman opens in theaters this Friday, April 22nd. For all my tour dates and things and stuff, go to WTFpod.com. Okay? No music today. I'm going to give you a break. I'm giving myself a guitar break. Boomer lives. Monkey and La Fonda.

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Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means.

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