WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1327 - Tony Hawk

Episode Date: May 2, 2022

Tony Hawk walked into Marc's garage on a broken leg, the result of a recent skateboarding trick gone wrong. It's everything about Tony that's on display in the new documentary Tony Hawk: Until The Wheels Fall Off, distilled down to one cracked femur. Tony and Marc talk about why it's so hard to stop doing what you love, the fear of being seen as washed up, and the feeling of being a kid and finding something that you know you want to do for the rest of your life. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life.

When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney Plus. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing with cannabis legalization. It's a brand new challenging marketing category.

legalization. It's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Lock the gate!

Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fucking ears? What's happening? It's me it's me mark marin i'm uh i'm still out there i'm still out here i'm in a hotel room it's a beauty though i love this place the hewing hotel is that what it is in minneapolis is that where i always stay at the hewing it's really uh i don't know man there's something that i'm noticing about hotel especially because

i'm staying at relatively nice ones that if you stay at a really nice hotel and you're a road person or you spend a lot of time on the road it's it's fucking beautiful you're like you get in the room you're like oh man this is great i don't mind being here at all Madison, Wisconsin what was that? That was the Barrymore Theater great time this is who I am it's what I do, it's what I've always done and right now I seem to be full minded into it

with no resistance and complete control and total comfort and the shows have been all in, all in for like two hours. I love not having an opener. It's fucking joy to just go out there,

settle people down, get them, you know, focused and, and just do like a whole show because it's starting to unfold as a full arced show. Just emotionally. There's a lot of up and down to it so Madison was great then I drove on into Milwaukee and I've talked about

this I think the last time I was there years ago that's a great city the audiences that come out to see me in the Midwest really are great audiences. They're good people. Like people that come out to see me in the Midwest are some of the nicest, smartest. They know how to be an audience and they appreciate and understand performance every fucking night. Madison was amazing.

And Milwaukee, what I was going to say is that cities seems to have come along. I don't know, going back to these cities after COVID, the ones that were sort of kind of building themselves up before the last time I was here. I didn't know if they would be leveled by COVID. But Milwaukee actually seems like it's starting to happen even more. There's something about these old kind of industrial cities. And then I went to, where did it go? Back to Chicago.

Kit was there, met me there. She has family there. And also my mother's oldest friend and her husband and their son. Sons all live there. So it was kind of, I was able to hook up with Kit, drove in from Milwaukee. And yeah, I did the Chicago thing.

I went to Lou Malnati's it's the old standby and here's the thing I know people have their favorite restaurants in these places I go whatever that's where I go people like you ought to try other places why I like the people there I get treated well there and I know what I'm going to get you can be loyal to whatever you want you can have your choice I've tried a couple other places years ago I'm going to get. You can be loyal to whatever you want. You can have your choice. I've tried a couple other places years ago. I've been to Chicago a lot, but I got to be honest with you.

I go to Lou Malnati's because I know what I'm going to get and I like it. Lou Malnati's salad and that fucking buttercress, that first bite of Lou Malnati's deep dish, whether even you think it, some people don't even think it's pizza.

I don't give a fuck. I don't give a fuck what it is. I only get it there and it's the only place it exists in my mind but that butter crust pizza on that deep dish with that first little hint of yeast to it almost it's fucking amazing so I did that I did it I did the lose and it was great I didn't eat I couldn't eat again for the rest of the day but that's all right but the show in chicago at the vic which is a place i recorded a special and a place also that i've played many times was better than it's ever been i don't know how to explain it you know whatever i've worked my whole life to do i'm doing and i'm fucking good at it and i i don't even like saying

that that's the other thing that that's sort of freaking me out is I'm not a person that's going to continue to be sort of like cranky or angry or hard on myself because I think that it makes me funnier or that I don't believe that being unhappy or being miserable is somehow where I need to be in order to do the work I do. Usually it's just the way I am. But I realized something the other day in one of my meditative card rides and after talking to some fans is that if I'm really happy and I feel good about myself, I'm intolerable. Okay. It's like the way I talk, it's just sort of like, yeah, I am pretty amazing. I know it's great that I'm so good. And like, just just like it's not exactly that but it would just when i hear myself being happy about who i am and my place in the world and my

work i would not want to be talking to me you it's just contemptible i'd rather people say that guy's difficult that guy's an asshole uh or like you know very intense you know i keep my distance except for the people that really know me uh and they're just sort of like yeah he's you know he's up and down but i've been pretty level for a long time but when i hear myself really sort of be satisfied or content or experience joy i would i'd want to punch that guy in the face if that guy was me but i guess that just brings us around back around to this self-flagellation thing but like the tone of it maybe i'm just uncomfortable with it but if i'm not mistaken it would be unbearable for somebody to to listen to and i know a lot of people who know me and who you know are rooting for me or whatever

are uh you know they're like we just want you to be happy i'm like do you though because it's not it's it's it's hard to hand it's hard to listen to me satisfied happy or or okay with myself it's really um really just totally open-hearted. It's really difficult to put up with. But that might just be speaking for me. I don't know. More will be revealed, as they say, in the recovery racket. Today on the show, I talked to Tony Hawk, the skateboarder.

He's probably the most famous skateboarder in the world. Even if you don't know anything about skateboarding, you know who Tony Hawk is because he's probably the the most famous skateboarder in the world even if you don't know anything about skateboarding you know who tony hawk is because he's been everywhere for like 30 years the x games the tony hawk pro skater video games jackass his company birdhouse all of it and he's the subject of this new documentary tony hawk until the wheels fall off which you can watch on hbo max i don't know anything about skateboarding yeah i i didn't know i didn't know i i lived through it you know it happened in my lifetime we knew that tony was available like months and months ago but i'm like i don't know anything about that shit my brother was kind of into skateboarding it's so not my life it's so not

my world i'm not the guy that look if i'm'm going to take risks that are life-threatening, it's going to be emotional. It's not going to be physical. I don't want to break. And like, you know, if something gets too intense, you know, or out of control, like if it's on wheels or on skis, like generally I'll sort of like check out and just wait till I hit the wall. So and I do that emotionally. It's not as dangerous. But when you sort of like just relax into not being able to control skis or a skateboard or parachute or, you know, climbing a rock with your fingers and no rope and you just give up, then, you know, you're in trouble. You're in trouble. Like I've talked about it before,

but I think that if I was hanging off a cliff and it was a life or death situation, there was nowhere to, no one there to help me. You know, the idea that like, you know, would I sort of like find that amazing inner strength and physical ability to pull myself back up on top and survive? I think I would sort of be like, I don't know. And I would just slowly kind of like let it happen. Just let go.

So I stay away from those challenges, the ones that require wheels or ropes or skis or or you know any size wheel but so i didn't know that i didn't think that i could really have anything to talk to him about to tony but then i watched a doc and i realized like there's something about his compulsive nature that i identify with there's something i identify with him as a as a person there's an intensity there so I was like fuck it yeah let's uh let's give it a try let's let's let's have a conversation and it was uh it was it was pretty great and you'll hear that in just a second but oh my god so these shows so I got a show tonight I'm recording this a couple days early I gotta shower shit I gotta drink

some coffee I gotta I gotta be over at the Pantages. Minneapolis tonight. Been here many times. It's just also weird to realize how many times I've been to these places. I don't think time is flying by, but it's happening, people. It's getting away from us on so many levels. And I'm going to talk to Tony about this, about I think, you know, just about the nature of aging and continuing to to sort of throw yourself down the ramp, man, on wheels. The documentary Tony Hawk until the wheels fall off is now available on HBO Max. And this is me back at home in the garage studio talking to Tony Hawk. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence.

Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know, we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations,

how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Are you self-employed? Don't think you need business insurance? Think again. Business insurance from Zensurance is a no-brainer for every business owner because it provides peace

of mind. A lot can go wrong. A fire, cyber attack, stolen equipment, or an unhappy customer suing you. That's why you need insurance. Don't let the, I'm too small for this mindset, hold you back from protecting yourself. Zensurance provides customized business insurance policies starting at just $19 per month. Visit Zensurance today to get a free quote. Zensurance provides customized business insurance policies starting at just $19 per month. Visit Zensurance today to get a free quote. Zensurance, mind your business. Fuck. I'm watching the latest Jackass movie. Let's go backwards from that. Because I didn't realize until I was talking to my producer today that those guys, it's all intrinsically connected to skateboarding. Oh, absolutely.

And punk rock to a degree, but mostly to skateboarding. It just seems like the logical extension of skateboard culture, if you get rid of the board, is just destroying yourself. Yeah, but for the sake of humor yeah i know i know but like but there there's a point with some of that stuff where it's like i'm not sure that bull bit was funny yeah you know like it didn't even seem necessary i mean steve-o was sort of like why are we doing this and i remember him telling me when they when they first started filming and he said who not still uh steve oh steve yeah yeah and he said uh the only rule i had was no more concussions and the very first

uh thing they shot he got concussed yeah but like that bull but how did you get tied in with those what is the the back history of like that crew and skateboarding uh so that crew essentially started with big Brother magazine, which was a really edgy skateboard magazine. And edgy to the point of a fault because no one wanted to advertise with them because they were just dissing everyone.

Oh, so they were, oh, okay. So it was just total like, fuck you. Everything. Yeah. Okay. Including companies that were paying them for ads. Right. But they started doing videos and their videos were filled with hijinks and that's where knoxville came in but he wasn't a skateboarder not a skateboarder but he he he had some mutual friends and he offered to do some of their video stuff and he would do anything yeah they loved him he's that guy i dare you so he famously i think probably the the spark to that was he did

the um self-defense uh testing where he was you know he did this mace in his face and then and then he eventually he did the bulletproof vest and when he shot himself with a bulletproof vest it was like these guys are the craziest they'll do anything we need to make this a thing yeah and then at the same time bam was doing his skate videos in pennsylvania with a lot of hijinks now how does he rank as a skater oh he was super good in his heyday yeah oh yeah absolutely yeah i mean it's it's it's weird because skating is so subjective and bam didn't really compete okay so all of his stuff was on video but he was great yeah no competing though no and that's that

that's true for a lot of skaters oh yeah yeah there's only a core group of you nuts that did the competition well in my era it was it was necessary yeah because that was the only way to get any sort of recognition or or really to get any sort of gathering right because it was such a small scene now social media right youtube right you don't have to it it's weird there is a shift where none of that stuff the established methods of recognition yeah you know through either corporate sponsorship or awards don't matter anymore right because you can kind of just make your own world right but at the same time, there is a hardcore group

of competitors that are super technical and very consistent and that's what they do. Right. They go compete, they win big money, they're in the Olympics

and all that. That's right. It all exists. Yeah. The Olympics are a big deal still. Well, that was the first time skateboarding was in the Olympics.

When was it, last year? Yeah. And what was your sense of pride around that? I thought it was cool. I wasn't a big fan of the format, especially with the street event. Yeah, why? Because the way they do it, it's not like a routine. It's more you get five chances at one trick.

Yeah. And so it was a lot of just bailing. And the general public did not understand that concept. Hardcore skaters understand it. Right. That you could just keep going until you get it? Yeah. But people don't necessarily want to watch that?

No. I mean, imagine some other sport where you watch an ice skater trying to do a- Try again. Yeah, try again. You quadruple. Nope. We're going to try that one. Run it back.

I wonder why they did that With skateboarding That was the format They had come up with With the street That was working pretty well And They just carried it over

But with the park event Which was more The bowl And the pool Yeah That was like You have You have a 45 second routine

Or a 50 second routine Yeah And if you fall You're penalized But Right Cause it seemed like that was more traditional it seems that uh like in terms of format in some ways it's most like gymnastics yes right yeah yeah uh in that you know there are moves and there are things that

they can judge you on your technique or what you bring to it or how you stylize a trick that everybody else you know that anyone can do right right that's exactly it yeah but it's just less compulsory it's not like there are certain sets of tricks that have to be none so okay so the filmmaking like so going back with bam and those guys who were the filmmakers that came out of that thing out of uh you know the skating thing well so so bam was doing these these sort of videos comedic videos not not a lot of height some hijinks but but also some just sort of scripted stuff. He was really, you know, he was a creative force.

And so it was Spike. Spike Jones brought the two together because he was involved with Big Brother magazine and the videos. He saw what Bam was doing and he packaged it and brought it to MTV. Okay. That's how that all came together.

And I think that's how Spike started, period. Wasn't he a, was he a still photographer? He was a still photographer. He was actually a- For Big Brother? Before Big Brother, he took photos for a kind of underground skate magazine called Homeboy.

Oh, okay, yeah. But he was big into BMX. Right. So he was actually a BMX photographer and BMX writer. Right. And so those worlds were somewhat connected and then became this obvious, very successful photographer through that. Okay. And then started doing all this other stuff through, he started, helped start Girl Skateboards.

Yeah. Lakai Shoes. Yeah. So all of their videos had this spike magic to them. Oh, okay. Where they were doing CGI, they got Owen Wilson doing cameos, Jack Black,

and it was like, wait a second, what is going on here? But so there's always been this network of people that are established in different fields that came through skateboarding.

I think so. That came through you guys. It came through whatever you know, skateboarding. I think so. That came through you guys. It came through whatever the generation was before you. Because, like, look, I'm not that kind of risk taker, you know. I'll take emotional risks and do comedy, but I can't do, I'm not the skateboard guy. But I watched a documentary and I was like, you know, because I remember you came up as a potential guest. And I'm like, I don't know anything about that. But when you watch the doc, it's not like, I don't know anything about that.

But when you watch the doc, it's not really about that somehow. It's about you. Yeah, but also I think that, I hope that the message of what skateboarding is comes through in that. Of course. Yeah, the history's there. The history's there,

but it's also, it's this individual pursuit, but there's a community around it. Yeah. And it's all DIY. Right. of it from from the get-go You know just in terms of figuring out tricks building places to skate well. Yeah, just in videos that the this sort of almost vandalizing First the vandalizing nature of it originally to get you know jump over walls and skate in empty pools

Yeah, was you know that was DIY walls and skate in empty pools. Yeah. Was, you know, that was DIY and also punk rock. It all kind of matched up. Yeah. But in terms of, I think the reason why I found it interesting is that, you know, I, how old are you? I'm 53. You're 53. Okay.

I'm 58. And, you know, I don't always know why I continue doing things. Yeah. And I, you know, like I go out and I do it. I do the stand-up. I keep pushing and I don't know what. But you do as well. Again, yours is much more dangerous.

But do you- As I found out very recently. Yeah, what'd you do? I broke my femur. Wow. Seven weeks ago. Exactly seven weeks ago. That's the top bone. Yeah.

If I was going to do it, I went big. Yeah, how'd you do that? Just doing a trick that I do quite often. For anybody or just for yourself? Were you alone when this happened? No, I was skating with friends, but we were challenging ourselves to sort of do it in a different way.

And when I went, the trick is the McTwist. You saw the documentary so you might understand it's like a it's like a 540 spin yeah um but i didn't have enough speed going into it the one that you're you're pursuing the entire documentary no no no that's a 900 yeah yeah yeah okay this is something you've done a million times yes yeah yeah um i'd like to think that i put in my 10 000 hours in yeah uh but I didn't have enough speed going into it, which I knew and accepted. And in my younger days, that was never a problem.

I could just ball up and spin faster and make it work. And before I knew it, I didn't compensate like that, like I used to. And my board was on the wall before I was ready for it. And suddenly I found myself trying to sort of fix it. And next thing I know, I'm sliding across the bottom with my leg literally dragging behind me. I mean, I knew it right away.

And it was really shocking. That it was broken, yeah. So how many times you broke the leg? That's it. That's the first time. Yeah. Now, what do you attribute the issue you had? I mean, the way you talk about it, it seems like when you're in the trick or when you attribute this the issue you had i mean like i it's the way you talk about

it it seems like like when you're in the trick or when you're in the moment that it's almost like slow motion where you have time to adjust and you're that conscious of it uh i think what i attribute is is that i i anticipated that i could fix it like i could in my younger days yeah and i don't usually i don't mess with that trick yeah you know what i mean like everything's got to be sort of on point as i go into it because i do know that it can't be dangerous and so every other time that i've been doing that trick i'd say in the last four years yeah i know that i got plenty of speed i got the right takeoff i got the grab everything all systems go and in this instance i just was like i still got it yeah and i don't and i pay the price and

i do feel like there's there's a big lesson for me in it and especially that was one of the themes of the doc is like how how far can you guys take this um at your age yeah and it's like yeah i i can't i can't just think my twists are gonna going to happen if everything's not perfect. Yeah, perfect. Well, I think when you were a kid, I mean, I thought it was all pretty interesting. I don't know how much you dig around in yourself emotionally to figure out why you do things. Not much. But you know it's an option.

Yes, yeah. And I think that I understand it better now than I used to. And especially for me, the more eye-opening thing about that was hearing my peers and also my mentor, Stacy, talk about it with such great concern. And I guess I never wanted to hear that so i blocked it out yeah and but you heard it it's loud and clear yeah and how does that and the message is you know he's got this compulsive problem where he's just gonna keep killing himself yeah and and i i don't like i i don't have a death wish but i do i do feel like i kind of feel like at this point i was flying too close to the sun.

With the femur? Yeah, before that. I mean, in the last year or so, I've been kind of progressing my tricks. Like I've actually been learning a lot of stuff. Yeah. And without concern of what the consequences of that could be. Yeah. And then I paid the price.

But do you know what I mean? Like, I think I was more that I had this sort of blind faith that everything was fine and I'm just gonna keep going upward with my trajectory of trying to figure out new maneuvers and new techniques. And then at some point, and ironically, I literally broke my leg the day the trailer dropped for the documentary.

You know? And you're like, wait, we can add something. Let's go back to the edit. Yeah. This is the end. I found the ending. I hope not. I hope it's not the end.

No, it doesn't seem like it. You seem to be getting around all right. It's a nice cane with the bird skull on top. I found that on Etsy. You did? Yeah. It's pretty uh menacing but when you were like when you were a kid i i found it i mean your parents had you way late

yes very much so by surprise yeah and what's the age difference between you and the next sibling uh my brother is 13 years older than me right so that and everyone's still around right everyone's still not my parents but my siblings yeah yeah so you were just as like you know single kid in the in in the in the sort of like being raised by grandparents by yeah for the most part and did you find i mean emotionally in that situation you were sort of on your own right i was yeah i um and but but it wasn't like my parents were neglectful and they were very supportive right and my dad was he was driving me to baseball and and eventually to the skate park so he was supportive i think he was just thankful that i found something to focus my energy on because i was so i would have been diagnosed as hyperactive or add or something

like that right um and i was so just always moving and always wanted to go. And so it was always like, he was just exhausted. Both of them. And they're old. Both of them. Yeah. But my mom was working for the most part during the day. So my dad was the one who was sort of-

Dealing with the manic kid. Yes. Yeah. And like, but like, did it ever get to be problematic? Because like the one thing that interested me, like when, is that the kind of pressure you put on yourself? I mean, cause that's not necessarily ADHDhd or add no no no i i mean and i i want to be careful in in you know saying i'll be diagnosed with something like that no but i mean it's

probably true i mean you're not saying that you would have been but you know my day it's 70 so everyone said oh he's hyperactive but then they say you're also like a too smart right yeah that too but i don't i don't know if that played into my my approach to skating i think my approach to skating was i want to figure out how to do this and i want to do it at all costs and and i'll take the time but were you good at other sports and the hits i was okay i was just small so i wasn't it wasn't that i wasn't good i just i just didn't didn't have the size to make a big difference. But you knew you wanted to be athletic. You didn't go another way. You weren't going to be the guitar player or whatever. No. Well, I did play violin a lot until I got serious about skating.

How were you on the violin? I was actually pretty good. My teacher would have me play these sort of extracurricular events on the weekends. And that's when it came to a head because he wanted me to play at this event. And I said, I have to fly to Jacksonville to go to this competition. Yeah. And he said, well, you can't have both.

Oh, it would have been amazing if you kept both. Yeah. A violin virtuoso and a skateboard virtuoso. I do miss it. I miss being L.A. And I tried to pick it up again. You did? Yeah, it would have been amazing if you kept both. Yeah. A violin virtuoso and a skateboard virtuoso. I do miss it. I miss being L. And I tried to pick it up again. You did? Yeah, it didn't work.

Not there. So you tried baseball. You tried what else? Yeah, basketball. Basketball? Yeah. Now, at that time, like, I don't, like, again, like, because I don't know skateboarding, but it was, there were, there was a group. There were people doing it.

Sure. A certain way. Yeah. And that no one really knew about. It was just a strange little crew, right? Yeah. Well, when I got into it, it was the end of the 70s era. How old were you?

About 10. Okay. And the 70s era would have been who? Like the Dogtown Z-Boys. So that's where Stacey came out? Tony Alba, Stacey Peralta, yeah. Jay Adams. And what was their notoriety? How did you know about them? have been who like uh the dogtown z boys so that's where stacy alva stacy peralta yeah um jay adams and and what was their notoriety how did you know about them because they were the they were the pool skaters they're the ones who pioneered the whole pool so that was thrasher magazine in that

day it was actually skateboarding magazine it just started right because i remember my brother was kind of into it and he had he didn't have a big board he had like a bonsai board was that a thing yeah i remember those but he never really got that far into it um i i think that it was because my brother was a surfer so i knew of it through my brother yeah he he skated like you and where were you growing up where was it in san diego okay so that that that would be where it would happen uh yeah and then and then i got a. I started riding around my neighborhood as transportation. Eventually got to go to the skate park, the local skate park. Yeah, were you grabbing on to cars with the board?

No. You didn't do that? I wasn't that confident, no. And I mean, the boards were so sketchy. They were so, like the trucks were so small, you're gonna get speed wobbles no matter what. Right, now they weren't doing shows or anything, right? No, but the skate park in our town was called Oasis.

Yeah. It was fairly prominent, so- Was it new? It had been around for a year or two by the time I got there. Okay, yeah. And then they would have events, so a lot of the pros would come to the events. Yeah. And then I got to see all those guys.

Yeah. Which blew my mind. And were I got to see all those guys. Yeah. Which was, blew my mind. And were the videos happening yet? No. It was just, it was just live. You get,

because I guess I'm trying to kind of get a sense of what it, because like, not unlike punk rock, or even like certain elements of standup comedy, which I'm doing, there's guys that only, the people who love it know. And it's not a huge bunch of people,

right? Right. I mean, it had to be. It was very, and little did I know, when I got into it, and it's not a huge bunch of people right right i mean it had it was a very small and and what little did i know when i got into it and really dove into it it was shrinking exponentially during that time so there was like this weird expansion when it first got recognition when they built the first wave of skate parks yes and then as i got into it all those parks

were closing up they were too many kids breaking things just liability yeah well liability and and it would just fill out a style liability so the parks would couldn't afford it they get oh the insurance yeah no shit yeah well that makes sense i don't remember that being talked about the doc but that's like that would make complete sense how many lawsuits can you absorb i mean what once the first kids parents sue the park, it's over. Probably, yeah. But also, it was falling out of style, too. It was very much considered a trend in the way that Frisbees or Yo-Yos were. Really? Even with those guys flying out of pools like that?

Yeah, because it was just like, oh, here's your toy. It's a skateboard. And then once you're... I mean, I remember when I got to junior high, people were like, you still skate? Right. Like, didn't you grow out of that? Yeah, but I guess the thing is that those people didn't know the extent to which people were really skating. Because it would seem to me that if guys are flying out of pools and doing flips, there's going to be a lot of kids who are going to be like, what the fuck?

That's funny you say that, because that's what i always thought when i was a kid yeah and all through the years especially the sort of dead years i didn't understand why it wasn't more popular i was like these guys are they're evil kenevil yeah they're flipping around in the air like this is incredible and why why doesn't anyone care well why didn't they i can't answer that that. I mean, at some point, at some point, I think skating fell out of style, it fell out of fashion and went through its cycle of popularity. And in that low point was a revolution

of techniques and moves. And that's when people started, literally started to fly out of pools. Okay, so like during the dead time, the hard cores. So I would say like 81, 1980 to like 83, 84 is when all this stuff was happening. And this was in the Valley.

I mean, this was not in the peak. This was during the time. Yes. So, so what happened was, you know, everyone was skating.

Some kids took to it. Some kids didn't, some kids were better than others, but the people that were, you know, where it was a calling like yourself and what was ever left of the old crew and some of the guys you started with, was that during that time where no one seemed to give a shit, you took it to another level personally. And then all of a sudden when people came back, there were these handful of guys that were doing insane shit. Yeah.

And the equipment had changed. The styles had changed. How did that evolve? Who started fixing the trucks and the boards? It was just more out of functionality. When I did podcasting, there was no podcasting. Right. Not much, right?

Right. So when you did boards, were you guys meeting with guys who were making boards? We worked with, well, Stacy was the one who put me on the team. And we definitely worked with Stacy. And his partner was George Powell, who was also an innovator of products. Right. So Stacy's team was what? What was that called?

Bones Brigade. So he's kind of retired at that point? He's retired as a pro skater. Right. Okay. And then he curated this team. And this is 80? He started that in, I think it was 81 82 okay i got on the team

let's see 80 yeah 81 i got i got on 81 so was there but but this was the beginning right there wasn't really a bunch of teams everywhere was there there were maybe three big big there were three companies that were surviving yeah um and so it like, it was Palo Peralta, GNS, Santa Cruz, and Vision. Those were sort of the big four. And they had teams. They had teams, yeah. And so in terms of technology, you guys would kind of...

We were just sort of, as tricks would evolve, it would be like, well, I need a longer nose to do that like to keep my front foot on yeah so then we would extend the nose and it was like but now it looks like a shovel so now we gotta maybe we should sort of side cut it and you know it was just all like that yeah and we're all over the place yeah but did did it level off board technology yes it did yeah and uh all right so when you're doing this so when it's this weird time where it's not popular but you're did you feel the day where you're like this is my life that's hard to say because when i turned pro i was 14 and all that meant was that i was competing in

a different category for a hundred dollars for first place so it wasn't like i thought i chose this career and i was young enough to know that not a career but you you but i but i i wanted to be yes the answer is i i wanted to be but i but i knew the reality of i can't make a living like that like if i'm an adult right but but were you really thinking about a living no no i mean like it's like, it seems to me that when something is your calling, all you're presented with is the lack of choice for the rest of your life. Yeah. But also, the expectations then,

especially with my parents, was like, well, you're going to go to college. Sure. And you're going to figure out this job. And it was like, well, all I really want to do is this. And then I got lucky in that when I was reaching my last years of high school, things started to blow up. What was it about it though?

Like, you know, I can guess the answer, but I mean, like outside of like a lot of documentation in the movie and of you being hard on yourself and not giving up uh you know what made it worthwhile was it just that oh that the the the creativity of it and what it what it provided me like when i would go figure out a new trick or a new technique that buzz that i've i didn't have nothing else compared to that. And I mean, that was the dragon I've been chasing the whole time.

Right. That feeling, like when I first made a trick, it was halfway up the wall. It was, you know, of a pool. I had to reach down and grab my board on the way up and like maneuver it around. But I did this trick that had never been done. And when I did it and I landed, I was like, holy shit.

Like I just wrote a song. Yeah. And I'm 11. Right. Like that was unreal. A hit. It wasn't a hit, but I liked it. But no one else had ever done it before.

No one had done it, yeah. You're like an astronaut. You made it to the planet. I did feel like that. And so then when it started to evolve and I started to build on that, that was it. Like I was stuck in it. And well, yeah, well, that's the thing, man. I mean, like whatever you would have been diagnosed with as a kid,

the only thing that's going to make you feel present and connected is that feeling of elation when you complete something, right? Yes. And like I said, and probably chased it to a fault. Well, I mean, but that's what you know addicts do yeah yes I think that's the word that no one wanted to say especially

in the doc yeah well looks like some of those guys tried a lot of addictions some of them look like they live pretty hard but I think that's just part of the character of it you know if you have that thing that you know you have that singularity of focus and that compulsive need to perfect a thing and then, you know, fly. I mean, once you learn how to fly.

Oh, that was it. Are you kidding me? Like when I first did an aerial out of a pool, that was another moment where it was like, I'm just doing this forever. There's nothing that it compares to. I'm laughing with joy for you. Yeah. Yeah, you know, because it seems to me that even at this age or however long

it's going to take you to get on your feet, even if you just do the simpler tricks, you can still kind of fly when you want. Oh, I do. I'm looking forward to just getting a baseline of tricks and I'll be fine with that. Yeah. I mean, fine with that. Yeah. I mean, I truly will be content.

It's called, I think they call it maintenance in the recovery game, you know? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I don't want to go too, I just want, you know, I just want, you know, trick maintenance. There's a trick that I do, that I did whenever I would first get to my ramp.

Yeah. Super basic trick, just sort of lets me feel out how my body is doing. Yeah. It's basically like I slide along the tail on the coping. Yeah. And nowadays, like all I want to do is that. Oh, yeah. I just want to do a tail slide.

That's it. And you can just go do it, right? No, not yet. Well, I mean, but like before this happened, you could do it. Oh, yes. You mean right now with your injury? That's what I, yeah, that's what i'm driving towards how many times are you stepping

on the board right now uh i mean just to feel it out i have yeah a few and i paid the price actually i was almost i was almost done with this cane last week i was i was probably walking half the time without it yeah and then I stepped on my skateboard on Friday and pushed it too far. And I had to step off. The problem was I had to step off and I stepped off on my bad leg. Oh, and you went down?

Came home and my wife's like, what the fuck's wrong with you? How many times have you heard that? A lot in the last six weeks. Not usually before that. She's very supportive and understanding. And she grew up skating. She's from Detroit, punk rocker.

She grew up skating too, so she gets it. The woman that you came with? Kathy is her name? Yeah, Kathy. And this is the fourth wife? Yes. Oh, good. Keep trying, you keep trying. No, we got it.

This is it? I figured it out. Good, that's good. so what struck me too about the other guys who i didn't know and i and i imagine i don't know how many people listening to this show will will be like how the fuck does he not know steve caballero or whatever his name is his name yep and these guys was that some they have they all have such distinct personalities and such specific approaches to understanding why they do what they do. But they're not unlike you in that they clearly many of them are still doing it. Not to the degree that you are, but they all look up to your ability and the things you've contributed.

But they all have a certain, you know, understanding of why and how and what they're doing. Yeah. And they can't, none of them can stop. understanding of why and how and what they're doing yeah and they can't none of them can stop you know what's amazing to me is that that crew stacy put us together when we were in our early teens and all those guys all those guys who's the mystical guy uh rodney mullen that guy's something i just had dinner with him last night you did yeah he's. And you've known him since you were 14? Oh, since I was 12. Yeah. Yeah.

And because we both had, we were, you know, we had different styles of skating. We were both very much in the same mindset of how to do it. Yeah, I felt that. But there was something about him that almost, it almost seemed like it was like some sort of Zen practice. Oh, yeah. No, he's like a super genius and very philosophical. Yeah.

I mean, he really is like so smart to the point of being hired for think tanks and stuff. Oh really? Yeah, he's on a different level, yeah. Like what kind of smart? What does he do for think tanks? I think just ideas. Oh really?

And yeah, at some point they were asking him to start curating exhibits for Smithsonian. Oh, really? Yeah. So that's interesting. So he's sort of some sort of savant, some sort of genius guy. Yes, yeah.

And you're highly intelligent. So now I've just been dealing with this with peers from my past. So when you guys, how often do you hang out? Oh, the other skaters? Well, you and him in particular. We try. I'd say it's rare rare every few months or so.

Oh, really? Yeah. But there's no distance, right? No, no. We jump right back in, yeah. Right. For what? 40 years?

40 years, yeah. That's crazy. Yeah. But I guess- What I was going to say is- Yeah, I'm sorry. That whole crew of skaters, so many skaters have come and gone and sure ran into personal issues and and yeah all of these skaters that stacy put together are all still skating and all kind of made it through

the fire which is just amazing what is there like 10 of them eight of them um there's i would say there's six core of us that were the bones brigade yeahade. Yeah. Who are all, like I said, still around. That's Steve, Kristen, Rodney, Lance. Rodney, Lance. Yeah, Neil doesn't skate so much, but he wasn't a Bones Brigade guy. Mike? Mike McGill is still skating. And Dwayne? I think, well, Dwayne has come against some hardships and some physical issues.

But I do see clips of him skating still. Yeah, and was he one of them? Was he a Bones Brigade guy? No, he was before. Oh, he was. He was the generation right before. Yeah, because I like that whole thread of tension between his perception of you and his life.

Oh, yeah. It looked like he's run into some fairly heavy obstacles. Yeah, and I hope he can get through it. Well, I thought that was kind of a beautiful moment in the documentary where it wasn't so much that he conceded, but there's a humbling that happens with age and life where you look at things differently and maybe correctly. And he was sort of like, yeah, he's all right.

and he sort of was sort of like, yeah, he's all right, you know? But yeah, so all these guys still do it, but they all sort of look at you, except for Rodney, who seems to understand intrinsically why you keep doing it. Yeah, because he does. He does.

That's the thing, is Rodney still skates every single day. He just doesn't do it in public because he feels like his skills are fading a bit. Yeah. And he said it to me privately, like I don't want to rot in public. Right, oh sure, none of us do.

And, but I asked him last night, I was like, are you still skating? He's like, yeah. I mean, I know he's still skating, but I wanted to know if he was still skating as regularly. He's like, so Rodney is like a vampire. He only sleeps during the day. He goes out skating at midnight every night

and is done at like 3 or 4 a.m. Where does he do it? In parking lots. Oh, really? And has run into some scary situations. Oh, really? Because he's just out downtown LA or wherever in the middle of the night. Well, he seems Because he's just out downtown LA or wherever in the middle of the night.

Well, he seems like he's doing something like, it's almost like a dance of some kind. Like he doesn't, he's not flying off of walls. No, no, no. But all of those tricks. It's very personal. Yeah, it's very personal, yes.

Huh. But I mean, he really, he created half of the modern skateboard tricks. He did. In terms of what kids do with their board under their feet on flat ground. Huh. But I mean, he really, he created half of the modern skateboard tricks. He did. In terms of what kids do with their board under their feet on flat ground.

Right. That's all Rodney. Oh, really? Yeah. And you've created most of the aerial stuff? A lot of it, yeah. But I feel like Rodney's

contributions are much more, resonate much further because a kid, like a kid gets a skateboard, they wanna learn how to kick flip. Yeah. They don't wanna learn how to McTwist,

they wanna learn how to kick flip. They have to do that first, the kick flip. Rodney created the kick flip. He did. Yeah. We used to call it a magic flip. Yeah. Because we didn't understand how he did it.

Yeah. So we're like, what, how did that flip? He goes, oh, you know, it was like, it's magic. Did you figure it out? Well, yeah, eventually, yes. But now most of the skate community has figured it out. Yeah. But I mean, were those times like,

did you all like, were you all kind of standing around going like, wait, how'd you do that? Oh, yes. Yeah. Well, that was the weird thing. In those days, freestyle was more considered dancing

and just not cool because we were skating pools. We were doing aerials. We were grinding. more considered dancing and just not cool. Because we were skating pools. We were doing aerials. We were grinding. We were risking our lives. And then these guys are doing pirouettes and stuff. But there was something about Rodney that when a freestyle contest would happen,

everyone's just kind of scattered and wandering off and whatever. And they would say, next up is Rodney Mullen. Everyone would come back. Oh, really? Yeah. Everyone. And they would say, next up is Rodney Maughan. Everyone would come back. Oh, really? Yeah. Everyone. And everyone would stop what they're doing.

Like the skate park was all the bowls and stuff. Everyone stopped skating all the bowls and they would just watch Rodney. Really? Because we knew it was something special and something so progressive that we couldn't even grasp what it was. Uh-huh. And all you kind of wildcats out there flying into the air will come to watch this guy. It's just going to be him and his board. Uh-huh. And all you kind of wildcats out there, you know, flying into the air, come to watch this guy that's just going to be him and his board. Yeah.

Wow. But there was also some tension between the old timers and you flying around, right? Yeah, because, well, I just didn't, I didn't really have the strength or the size to do the things that they were doing the way they did them. Which was what? to do the things that they were doing the way they did them. Which was what? Well, basically when they would do aerials, they would reach down and grab their board

before they got to the top and then yank it out. And I didn't have the bulk or the strength to do that at any sort of height that meant anything, that was significant. So I figured out how to get into the air without grabbing my board and then grab it at the peak. Yeah.

And it was just out of desperation. It wasn't like I thought I was revolutionizing how to do this. It was just more like, that's the only way I can do it. Right. And then at some point, the older skaters,

one of them gave an interview in the magazine. They said, what do you think about Tony Hawk? He's like, oh, I mean, he just cheats. Like he always into his aerials and then, and then he can grab it however way. Like, and I was thinking, but I was thinking like,

isn't that good that I can grab it different ways. Yeah. I don't understand. You know, but it was crushing to, you know what I mean? It wasn't like I was fighting for it. He was more of the voice that people are going to hear.

But that, but that's interesting because that happens in every field where, you know, people get dug in. I mean, it wasn't like I was fighting for it. He was more the voice that people were going to hear. But that's interesting because that happens in every field where people get dug in, you know, and this is the way we do it. Right. And then when new kids come, they're like, fuck that. We do it the real way. Yeah. We're hardcore.

But it wasn't like I was fighting against that. No, no. I just was like, okay, I guess they don't like it, but I don't have a choice. Well, yeah, but that's half the problem with the country is because these old guys are still holding us to this course that is ridiculous. Right.

But I mean, it's just the nature of... But how many of those old guys came around to your way? I feel like most of them were just already stuck in their style. Oh, really? Yeah. So they stuck by that line? um i feel like most of them were just already stuck in their style oh really so like even with so they stuck by that line um yeah there was a there was a pretty clear separation of generations yeah and so the newer generation was was all about doing all these and they held

to the line of like they still i don't think i don't think that they wanted to but did they defend it still? No. As time went on, they- No, it was just more like, this is how we- Yeah, this is what we do. So I learned it when I was 12 and now I'm 20 something and I'm- I can't do that? Yeah. It gets scarier.

Even in your 20s, it gets scarier. Well, I think it's just trying to completely revamp how you skate. But that's interesting though because it's like, you think of it that way because you had to understand how they did it in order to do what you did. But that's interesting though because it's like you think of it that way because you had to understand how they did it in order to do what you did. Right. But I imagine

it's mostly fear on their at some point. I don't know. I can't speak for him. No, I know. But I think that there are things

that I see new skaters do where I think man, if I had learned that technique Right. growing, it would be totally different and I cannot snap into that. Like this, like now, kids now?

Yeah. No kidding. Yeah. There are things that they do where I'm like, that's- Like what? Well, for instance, when they skate bowls and ramps and stuff, there's a trick called a disaster, which is basically on your way in, you hit the bottom of your board.

Yeah. And it's called a disaster because you can easily hang up your trucks and it's just a one-way trip to the bottom. Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, that's why they call it a disaster. Yeah, yeah. And these guys do disasters in a millisecond.

Like you see their board, you can tell it hits, but it's like they never stopped moving. And when I did disasters as a kid and into my 20s, I stopped up there and pondered it and then came in. There's no way I can just learn how to do it quickly the way these guys have and the way that they did it from the get-go. Right.

Huh. That's just one example. I'm getting into the weeds weeds there, but I'm just you know, that's nobody I mean, but but why couldn't you just throw a switch and just do it I think it's because I I also have the the benefit of Experience and and fear of what can happen Yeah And these guys have been doing it and and have this rhythm that does not concern them. Right. And I don't have that rhythm.

And if I screw that up, I'm getting KO'd. Like there's no question. Right. I don't even mess with disasters anymore. Like I don't even do them slow or fast. Well, that's good. Yeah. Good for you.

You're able to give those up. Yes. So now you guys are all making these trips in this dead zone of like lack of popularity. What turned it all around? Was it the videos first? Yeah, I think so. You know what? A big catalyst was Back to the Future.

Really? Yeah. Huh. Because the Michael J. Fox character, he does that thing where he rips off the scooter handles and rides it like a skateboard. Oh, right. Yeah, yeah.

He presents the future to them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then they had a couple of guys that were pro skaters doing stunt doubling who were doing jumps

and ollies and things and kids saw that and that was their first introduction to modern skateboarding. So they were like, this is the future. This is the future.

Yeah, yeah. And a lot of them went out and bought the exact same board he was riding so but you guys were already doing it at that we were already doing it but it brought a whole new generation in and then as that was their gateway and then as they came in they saw what was what was really going on what's that what was the board oh it was uh it was like a basically a big store uh it was called a valterra yeah but it's kind of thing you'd buy at target okay not at a skate shop bigger than a bonsai though bigger than a bonsai yeah i mean it was a good entry level board but it was just one of those ones that's like it's like oh your very first bike was a schwinn from right yeah yeah from costco so those were going, they were hitting the streets with those boards. Yeah.

And then, and then, like I said, it sort of brought them in and then, and then they eventually got better. But it really seems like the kind of sport, which it is now, uh, that, you know, in order to really do the cool shit, I mean, you've got to take some risks. And I imagine a lot of kids buy the board and they do a couple of things and then they just get intimidated or bored and they put it away. So like in order to find that core group of crazy minded kids that are going to do that shit. I mean, I would imagine that's the minority. Yes and no.

I think that some people just found a comfort zone and stuck with it because they loved they loved the the culture around it yeah yeah as much as they loved the skating aspect of it well it's like i like that and that in the movie even when you're when your dad was like running those tournaments and stuff that you're really competing against yourself and everybody was relatively supportive yes i mean i obviously you know you each had issues but like it seems like whether you admitted it or not you would all watch each other and be kind of like whoa you know oh yeah and also it was in in those early days that was the only time we all got to be together yeah because there were there were these pockets of skate scenes through the u.s but not many of them so we would

get to skate with the texas dudes and the florida crew and then it was all we're all finally together for a weekend so it was more like whoa did you see what that one dude was doing yeah yeah and feeding off each other oh that's great yeah and when your dad was involved with the tournaments did you ultimately end up very close to him? As close as I could get to a war veteran that was in the Navy that grew up during the Great Depression. Yeah, and was also much older then. And much older, yeah.

He just wasn't warm and fuzzy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He never said, I love you. He wasn't like, but I think in his eyes, he showed it through his actions. Which was to set up the, what was his contribution to skateboarding? He was the one who organized

what became known as the National Skateboard Association. He got all of the main companies, skate companies to band together and to give money to put on an event. Okay. So he was the one who was was the the organizer of getting that he never made any money from it right um but he did get everyone to agree on a time and a place and and funding and prize money and you know putting up banners do you think that that that

what do you think drove that was it was it primarily the fact that you he knew that you were going to donate give your life to this no matter what and he wanted to substantiate it somehow like do he wanted to be like well i'll i'll do everything i can to make this a business in a way or a sport i i think it was more i don't think he saw saw it as a big picture like that yeah he saw this group of of misfit kids yeah who were good kids who had no sense of belonging anywhere else and all found each other because that was that was my friends i mean my friends were they had mohawks and stuff like in the early 80s yeah yeah um and he saw that they were all good kids and they found this thing that they identified with that was an extension of themselves, but there was a community around it

and he just saw it was disorganized completely. So that was the goal for him was just like, I need a place for all these skaters to feel like they belong. Right, because I imagine that being a guy that that been through what he'd been through and also sort of understanding discipline to a certain degree and what what it meant for for kids to to have a team or to have you know uh support like that because i imagine alongside of misfit kids you're like these kids could get into trouble oh sure yeah and plenty did yeah

yeah but it was really i mean you know to his credit he like i said he was he was much older generation and and he put on these events and embraced the chaos yeah yeah um you know as much as he was trying to organize it yeah it was you know it was punk blasting out the speakers and and people like not taking their turns and going after time. And, and as much as he was trying to contain that, he enjoyed it. Yeah.

Yeah. That's good. But there was so, there was some resentment on behalf of the other competitors that you were, you had the fix that he had the fix. Oh, always. Yeah.

Always. Yeah. That was always very hard because they were down on you because your dad ran things and you were winning. And, always. Yeah, that was always very hard. Because they were down on you because your dad ran things and you were winning. And I was winning and yeah, it was like, oh, you're getting more practice. No, I show up for my time practice. You guys are all sleeping.

Like that was the thing is that it's not that I get more practice. What's that? You were driven. Yeah, I was driven, but also like I played by the rules that were set forth. You guys didn't wake up in time for your practice session and now you're trying to squeeze into the last one it's not my fault you know that that was the argument right but they i in as old men they've all seemed to found a lot of appreciation for your father

yeah very much so yeah yeah and and uh it seems like they're that bygones are bygones around uh you know sure yeah absolutely yeah that's good yeah yeah all right so after back to the future that's when the videos happen um yeah that was around the same era and then it blows up right yeah in a big way um especially late late 80s like 86 to 89 because those videos were like you know any kid could get them and everyone had a vhs and it was like you know it was like the best thing they've ever seen in their life copying them and they're they're taping them together you know it was it was awesome or stealing them from skate shops yeah that's the way to do it and then it became this huge thing now did it was that the the upward trajectory to to

the video game and everything no no that was uh that era ended very abruptly around 1991 with the bmx bikes um no it just again it was the skate parks the skate parks there was there was a whole new crop of skate parks bigger ramps and things um yeah but almost all of them were private and and they were built by in wood and skating fell out of fashion again and there's rotting wood liability insurance was too much and and so and liability it was even more litigious then i mean we're talking about late 80s everyone's suing everyone some kid snuck into my ramp that ramp you saw in the documentary broke his elbow and then his dad sued me what i mean that was the 80s yeah you know that giant thing you built yeah uh-huh yeah he went without

permission i was in europe yeah and i came home to get served papers of velocity what happened with it uh my my homeowner's insurance covered it, but then dropped me. Wow. So it was still your responsibility somehow. Yeah. You couldn't- Wild. Yeah. It was the 80s.

It was just like- But you couldn't, the guy was trespassing, right? Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. But that didn't matter. It didn't matter because I guess it's an attractive nuisance. That's what I learned.

An attractive nuisance? Yeah. What does that mean? Well, you can see it from the highway. So the kid couldn't help himself yeah like i'm drawn to it like a magnet i must go drop in on the 12-foot ramp so so it all fell apart again and now you're what 20 uh i was 23 24 and then what happens what do you do with your life um keep making tricks i uh well i skated the ramps as long as i could until they finally just

were destroyed yeah i mean like and weathered and i couldn't afford to resurface them nor could i afford the property they were on so i uh i refinanced my house and started a skate company with the equity that i pulled out of it yeah um and then that did That did what? Sold it. I sold the house. What did the skate company do? We got a team together. So that's when I finally quit the Bones Brigade. I went on on my own. I got my own team together.

Yeah. Because I felt like if one thing I had through all those years was an eye for talent, the way that Stacey did. Sure. And so I put together a team that was largely considered one of the best talented teams of skateboarding.

And even though the industry was super small, sales were nominal. Yeah. But I thought, I'm in my 20s now. I have to move away from being a pro skater. And so I'm going to move into a position like Stacey did. Right. And what wife are you on at that point? What's that?

Which wife are you on at that point? Yeah. Well, that's right when my first child was born. Okay. So now you had responsibilities. I'm married. I have a child on the way. Yeah.

And two mortgages, one that I can afford. Yeah. And it was like, I got to figure this out. I got to make ends meet. So I sold that house and just recalibrated my expenses and my way of living and did whatever i could yeah and and how and what ultimately happened um you're doing competitions it was nice and you're still uh yeah but the competitions were were few and far between with very little prize money yeah i think i think the the extent of what i was then, rollerblading was big right then.

Oh. Early 90s, right? So that was the fun. But it's funny, like with the bikes and with something like rollerblading, like literally anyone can do either of those things. Skateboarding, not so much. Sure, but, and so it became hugely popular.

Huge, right. But the silver lining of that was that I was still a known name in skateboarding. So I got invited as a special guest to all these rollerblade events where it was like, they had half pipes and they, you know, they were doing the same types of stuff we were doing. And it was like, and special guest skateboarder, Tony Hawk. And so I actually, I kind of cruised along for about a year with that income.

Well, I mean, I would imagine that even like that the skateboard ultimately is going to win out because people watching that, it's sort of like, well, skates are skates, but this guy's flying. Yeah, but they were also flying. I mean, you know,

they were starting to, and that was the craze. And so, what are you going to do? Yeah. Hey, I was just stoked to be getting paid to skate. That's all that mattered to me.

It was like, I still get to skate. So you were a special guest and they were paying you. I was a special guest. At one point, we were doing demos in Six Flags parking lots. Yeah.

Three shows a day for a hundred bucks. That's nothing. But that- It was something. That paid the rent. It was something. Yeah. Wow.

That's a lot. That's like paying your dues. So then what changes, man? X Games. Yeah. X Games came in 95. That's before paying your dues. So then what changes, man? X Games. Yeah. X Games came in 95. That's before the video? When's the video?

Yeah. Well, so X Games came in 95, started to hit a stride around 97, 98. But that was almost like, that looked like a circus to me. Sure. Like when you guys were touring that thing, it looked crazy. Oh, no, you're talking about Huck Jam. That was my tour. That was my arena tour. was later okay x games was like the you know extreme so it was

it was bmx and it was motocross and it was rollerblading and it was um right sky surfing and bungee jumping and climbing it was all one thing yeah and. And so, but, but luckily the, the sort of runaway hits or the sports that, that seemed to resonate were skateboarding and BMX. Right. So we had got a big boost from that and I was still, I was still skating well, you know, making up tricks. So I rode that wave. Yeah.

And then 97 is when I started working on a video game with activision yeah and then 99 when it was it was a month no it was two months from being released yeah is when i had my big uh the 900 at at the x games which is totally spontaneous but it was like that's when you that's when it happened for the first time yeah so that happened we were just a few months away from the release of the first game

yeah and so I had to email the the the studio yeah the game studio and say hey you guys

I was at X Games and I just did this trick and I feel like it would it would be an omission if you didn't have it in the game even though I know

you're done with you know you have to submit games way early before release because they have to be approved by all the console manufacturers right so they're in beta of of sending it to the console manufacturers and i remember the same day i got an email from the president of neversoft and he's like we're way ahead of you you fucking rule yeah and they they put it in there yeah they knew you were gonna get it they didn't know i was gonna get it but they watched it live okay and so i see okay so they're like we got by the next day they're already trying to figure out how to include this new trick in the game and they did to their credit well i mean i see again like i didn't grow up gaming but like even the the woman i'm with who's in her 30s she's like i played that game everyone had that it was wild it was it

turned into a massive hit it came with the console had that it was wild it was it turned into a massive hit it came with the console is that how that worked it was first released on playstation okay yeah and then went out to what was in the time n64 dreamcast and then everything yeah and that was that was the life changer the game yes yeah absolutely yeah because you had a piece of it yeah yeah it changed my life completely. Yeah. How so? It just gave me freedom. Yeah.

Money. Yeah. Well, but money, obviously, but also just the, and the agency to say no. Right. Where I was- The $300 parking lot gigs? Dude. I was, yeah. I mean, I was definitely still in that mode.

And it was like, what do you need? Yeah. I'll be a consultant on that. I'll do this. And sure. And then, and then it was suddenly like, oh, I don't need to do that to make a living. Sell yourself out for cheap. Sure, or just spread myself so thin.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so that's when, I mean, I knew 99 was probably gonna be my last year competing anyway because at that point in my life, I'd done it 20 years. And you'd won everything. Most of the big events, the vert events. And like you kept winning vert events.

Yeah, and it was just like, it was like Rodney, like am I gonna rot in public? Am I gonna, you know, am I gonna burn out? But I imagine there was

a bunch of kids who were like, God damn it. Tony's on, oh, he's gonna, fuck. I don't know.

Maybe in the vert events. But then, the success of the video game the following year was a huge boost. And that's when I decided to do that big arena tour. That looked crazy. It was crazy. It looked like a three-wing fucking...

It was. It was wild. And it was huge, right? Huge success. So you go from the video game and you make choices and then you put together this punk rock circus. We had Devo play at two of our shows. And flying bikes and skates?

Flying BMX, motocross, and skateboarding, yeah. I know, yeah, there were actual motorcycles going through the air. Some of that stuff looked like three Evel Knievels all at once. It was really crazy. It was the choreography. We would spend two weeks in an airplane hangar in riverside yeah figuring out how to time everything because it very much was like andy said if you if you're not in the right place the right time a motorcycle is going to hit you right yeah and he wins yeah in that

battle did anyone get hurt yeah yeah surprisingly i i did every show i mean we did that we did that tour for four five five summers and you're still getting the juice you're still getting off on it i mean like you know it was the best that was when i was definitely in the groove yeah and like and it was fun it was so fun and and that was is that what led to the uh the the end of your first marriage second second yeah yeah Just, what was it, like, if it's not, if it's not too personal,

because it definitely isn't covered in the doc, it's just all of a sudden, like, he's got a lot of kids, and we only met this, you know. Oh, yeah.

Well, I have four of my own, and then two stepkids. Okay. But all are adult age, except for my daughter's 13. But like, with the,

like, I know in show business, and I know in certain other jobs, like, you know, relationships are hard. Is there a thread that dissolved all of them like was it a thing that you couldn't change yeah and i just i i didn't want to face myself too and and would obviously pass blame and whatnot and also just just choices and and um at some point you know drinking and partying and and seeking uh attention in unhealthy ways and and really just but but only because i wasn't

willing to just accept who i was well that's the same with the boarding right in a way what you know it's like you know it's hard to sit with yourself but it's easier i guess if you're flying and you don't have to think about it um yeah and and and compulsive behavior in general compulsive behavior and it's just at some point you're riding so high you don't think of any of of the fallout yeah of what that you know and and and chasing this yeah this dream that no one has even created yet. Yeah. Right?

And then, and I have kids and I'm not really giving them my full time. Or if I am, I'm not really, you know, it's just like, like at some point through those years, I was a Disneyland dad. Yeah. How bad did the booze and shit get? It didn't, it wasn't, it was distracting. I never let it really affect me so much that like I couldn't perform. Well, I guess that's the one benefit of being addicted to skateboarding, first and foremost, is that you don't want to do anything that's going to fuck that up. I saw my peers, how it affected them when they went hard.

Drugs and stuff, yeah. Yeah, and they lost their skills. And so I was always very aware that, but at the same time, if we had a great show, then we're going out partying. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that was just all nonsense. Well, I think you made a sort of, you talked about it a little bit, but I kind of lost the thread in the doc. Did you do some sort of treatment thing? I did, yeah.

For what? Just because I felt like I kept making those same choices and this compulsive behavior at an age when should have this all figured out right so what was that like what was the treatment um just sort of how how do i deal with all of the success but be of an effective father an effective partner right um and it was when was when Kathy and I had first started dating and I felt like I've got to figure this out. I mean, in my whole life, like everything I ever wished for or wanted

is right here in front of me. Yeah. And I keep making these choices that I'm not proud of. Right. And I need to figure out how to hone in on that and do it for, and feel good about it. Yeah. And that was it.

And I just needed, I needed to go somewhere with no distractions. So you got some tools together for yourself? I did, yeah. Some cognitive work? Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I mean, I leaned into it heavily. Well, you must be, you're a disciplined guy. So, I mean. I think that was probably one of the breaking points for me or one of the epiphanies I had, where it was just like, you can accomplish almost anything on a skateboard. accomplish this with your life that you you haven't been able to figure it out for decades and did you feel did you find yourself experiencing like a lot of uh

whatever you were holding in the grief and all yeah yeah yes yeah very much and it kind of came out in bits and pieces and yes wow yeah you feel better oh yeah it was like i it was it was like there was this this release of of baggage that i felt it physically and it was like oh now i have a foundation to build up something that i i want to be proud that i that i want to do that i am proud of and that i can be way more effect i I mean, it's crazy how when you get that clarity, how much more productive you can be. Yeah, well, I mean, when you're not running from yourself where all your energy is not going into that innately

and you can make choices around that, I guess the threat of it is that once you find yourself grounded in yourself and you have that weight, I imagine the thinking around doing things that are destructive that you needed to do in order to keep doing what you do, it's a different thinking. Oh, yeah. And I can't even imagine going down that path anymore. That's good because, I mean, you're older.

Older, yeah, but also I think just um I got the tools I got I got the tools to figure it out and and um support and and I mean and my wife is she's amazing she already kind of had it figured out that's great her her own life and and um she believed in me and then that in itself was enough that's great and you were able to make it right with all the kids i like to think so i mean they're all most of them are they're they're all at the house except my daughter um but uh three or uh two are out of college yeah um three are still in college and then my daughter is going into high school next year. Yeah, she got the best version, I guess, huh? Yeah, I don't like to dwell on that.

Yeah, but yeah. Yeah, I think it was probably hardest for my oldest son because he saw all the shifting around, and he was getting shifted around himself. But he's doing great. Are you close? What's that? You're close?

Yeah, yeah. That's great. And when you say's that you're close yeah yeah that's great yeah and uh and do like when you say you don't like to dwell on that do you dwell on things like oh that's good no there's no trick in your brain no no i mean i dwell on skate tricks that's what i'm sure yeah yeah yeah still oh yeah yeah it's kind of sad because i was working on a video project before i got hurt yeah and every thought about skating goes towards that like am i gonna be able to finish that video you know what i mean not am i gonna be able to get back on my skateboard am i gonna be able to do these basic tricks am i gonna be able to do something enough to make that video

worthwhile yeah yeah and is it all you or you got? It's all me, yeah. Oh, wow. And what's the angle on the video? Well, you saw my ramp. Yeah. You see there's a gap in the ramp. The indoor one? The indoor ramp, yeah.

You see there's a gap in it. Oh yeah, I do, yeah, yeah. So I was doing only tricks over that gap. Right. And a lot of them. Did you go through one? Did you hurt yourself on it? I shot through the middle of it, yeah.

Yeah, okay, yeah. You would think I know where it is by now, but yeah, there's one shot of me. So it's all you using the gap? It's all tricks over the gap, yeah. Okay. And a lot of them are ones that I hadn't done before or tricks that I'm just learning, but I took it over the gap.

Yeah. And so now it's like, I don't feel like I have enough to warrant putting out a video. Sure. And so I don't know how long this is going to take. Right. Or if I'm ever going to get back to doing the concert.

Well, can't you just do one of those, like, you know, kind of YouTube releases or like, you know? It's all YouTube releases. All of it. Yeah. Oh, yeah. There's no... But you can't do bits and pieces of it?

Why? Because it, you know... I need something more complete. Nothing in there on its own is a standout. Okay. It's more of a, you know. You're moving towards something. Yes, exactly.

And where is skateboarding as a business now and as a sport? It's in the Olympics. Is it popular again? Are you, you know? Yeah. There's a lot more support. There's a lot more resources. And you helped build a lot of parks too, didn't you?

Yeah. Yeah, with our foundation, the Skate Park Project. And that's working too still? Yeah. I mean we we've helped fund over 900 skate parks now and and kids are doing it oh i mean those those facilities if you go if you go to a skate park in daylight yeah it's getting used yeah and you can't say that for every sports facility right right right because it's like it's one of those beautiful things that a kid can just be like I'm going to go. Yeah.

Yeah. Or early in the morning it's dads with their little kids or moms sending their toddler out before it's crowded. Do you feel like

you've given a gift to the world to a degree? Do you feel like you've helped? Is there a part of you that appreciates the service that you did?

Because it feels like you did. That's the work i'm most proud of yeah is the skate parks because that's where i found my sense of self yeah was at the skate park is where i spent most of my time when i wasn't in school i'd go out of school straight to the park until they closed every night and i found my sense of of community and my sense of purpose there and i felt like when i finally had some success and a voice that could affect change that's the best i could do with it is to provide the same facilities for kids not that they have to they're not training grounds yeah it's not like we're trying to make pros it's more like here's a place for everyone to gather right and do tricks and do this thing that you're getting kicked out

of public facilities. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You don't have to jump a wall. Yeah. Or get a ticket. Yeah. Well, great talking to you, man. Oh, thanks for having me.

It was fun. Tony Hawk, that was intense. He's intense. I enjoyed it. The documentary, Tony Hawk Until the was intense. He's intense. I enjoyed it. The documentary Tony Hawk Until the Wheels Fall Off is now available on HBO Max. No music today. Soon.

I've got to go shoot Reservation Dogs next week. All week. In Oklahoma. I've got a part. I've got a part on the show. Boomer lives. Monkey and La Fonda. Cat angels everywhere.

All right. Talk to you later. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a

highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m.

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