WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1328 - Nicole Holofcener

Episode Date: May 5, 2022

Nicole Holofcener has trouble breathing. She finds herself holding her breath for too long, which could be a result of allergies or a byproduct of sleep apnea. But it's also an apt metaphor for the life of an independent filmmaker. Nicole and Marc talk about what it takes to make films with small budgets, casting conundrums, and deeply personal subject matter. They discuss the films she wrote and directed like Walking and Talking, Lovely and Amazing, and Enough Said, as well as her contributions to The Last Duel and her reasons for continuing to work on episodic television shows. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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T's and C's apply. Lock the gates! All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck nicks? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron.

This is my podcast, WTF. Welcome welcome to it i'm broadcasting awkwardly uh from a hotel in tulsa oklahoma awkwardly because the main room of this room was too bouncy i'm a little sensitive to the bounce the sound bounce it's a little better in here so i'm propped up on a chair in front of a dresser in the bedroom of this suite talking to you. You all right? Today on the show, I talked to Nicole Holofcenter. She's a writer, director of films like Walking and Talking, Friends with Money, Lovely and Amazing, Enough Said. She also wrote the screenplay for Can You Ever Forgive Me with Melissa McCarthy and co-wrote The Last Duel with Matt Damon and Ben Affleck. She also directed TV shows like Parks and Rec, Inside Amy Schumer, One Mississippi,

and Orange is the New Black. My late girlfriend, Lynn Shelton, was a big fan of Nicole Holofcener. Always talked about her movies. I watched many of her movies. of Nicole Holofcener. Always talked about her movies. I watched many of her movies. I actually had a brief conversation with her about perhaps bringing to life a script

that Lynn and I had been writing for years. But I never really followed through with that. I don't know really what to do with that. There's a pain to it. There's something special about it remaining the thing that we did and not necessarily realizing it without her so she'll she'll i will talk to her shortly i yeah i think i i must have come

through here at some trek across the country because i think this this road this interstate turns into i-40 at some point which which cuts right into New Mexico. I must have drove across Oklahoma through the top of Texas on into New Mexico at some point, because oddly, I do remember Oral Roberts University just sitting out there in the middle of what seems like a plains area. I mean, there are other buildings. There's downtown Tulsa, but there's this massive tower that I believe belonged to Oral Roberts University. I don't know if it's still called Oral Roberts University, but there's a series of towers

that I remembered seeing and I remembered looking up. So I must have made the trek and I've been here for a day and it's been kind of eventful, I guess, but everything's an event when you're in a new place. kind of eventful i guess but everything's an event when you're in a new place uh i arrived got the car from the airport and we drove by massive protests out in front of uh of city hall here in oklahoma because i believe the governor as of the day before yesterday uh enacted some sort of draconian shit show anti-abortion legislation in preparation for the great pulling of the rug out from under all the women of this country that is poised to happen. As fascism creeps in, it's really all we should be talking about and the environment, but it doesn't seem to be the broader cultural discussion. It's more of a Kardashian thing or, you know,

what's going on in the, the world of, of fiction. I took a, a lift yesterday out to, I went, I need to go to Whole Foods, stock up on some,

some stuff because I immediately got it into my head that, that everything's got to change. Everything's got to change. If I'm going to be on the road, I can't just eat like nothing matters. I've got to take care of myself. I've been in and out of that, taking care of myself on the road, not taking care of myself. But I really had shifted into, as of yesterday, I was like, I'm going to do it.

So I took a car out to a Whole Foods. It must have been a half hour away. And it was fine. But the ride out there, the guy who drove me was a nice guy. You know, Oklahoma dude. And, you know, you get to talking. I got to talking. He seemed real nice. He's telling me a little bit about the city.

We discussed as we were driving that Oral Roberts University, which is apparently the tower, he told told me is supposed to be the height of uh noah's ark and he says i know the bible pretty well and i think that's about right and i'm like that seems big and he said yeah it took 120 years to build that and i said well that must have been a few generations he's like no uh know, they live longer than I'm like, okay. Well, then the other question is, how do you keep employers? How do you employ people for that long over an arc of 120 years to keep people in a, in the job?

I'm just assuming that was tricky. And he laughed at that, which maybe only when I get laughs from people that are truly believers at things that are just about logic, it makes me believe that they kind of know that it's kind of bullshit but i don't know there's no reason to push it but i'm always happy when i get the laugh uh from the uh from the deep believers because it was logical and it made sense in modern terms that that's fucking ridiculous but nonetheless i brought up the fact that they built an arc i think in kentucky somewhere at the creation museum wherever that is he said yeah he'd heard about that but we're just talking it was a varied conversation and and we talked a lot

you know about barbecue sort of got into i asked how everybody fared here with the pandemic and if things were bouncing back and he said well i don't know we didn't really there wasn't that big of a shift because we didn't uh stop and then as time you know as the conversation went on you know he said did he think he might he might have had it a month or so ago the new one but you know he wasn't sure that you know he hadn't been vaxxed and that you know the people he worked with all during the pandemic, no one got it and no one was wearing masks until the mandate. But there was no tone of anger or anything. There was just a matter of factness to it.

And this guy seemed like a reasonably nice guy. And then we got to talking about just how I kind of said, well, it looks like we're gonna be dealing with this stuff. And then just matter of fact, we brought up, up he just matter of fact we brought up a meeting that took place with the CDC the WDHO and the global leaders in Wuhan about about pandemic management you know within you know weeks of the pandemic starting suggesting that it was some sort of conspiracy that they couldn't possibly have been meeting just to discuss the possibility of

something that was bound to happen but but okay it was and i said to him i said well you know it seems that you know as viral strains bacterial strains become more antibiotic resistant, that these things are going to happen, that these diseases, these viruses and bacterias are going to evolve and adapt, not unlike any other organism, and they're going to get worse and more persistent. And he goes, exactly, like that MRSA and a couple other things we talked about. But again, the logic was was there but not applied to the possibility that the pandemic was just a pandemic and not some sort of global conspiracy

meant to do what i'm not sure kill everybody but then we talked about food some more and it was one of those things that you you come away from where you're like well that guy was a nice guy and it was actually i hadn't had a conversation with a guy that uh has profoundly different beliefs than i do about everything but you know we kind of met somewhere around you know brisket and chicken but it didn't feel volatile and i don't think any progress was made but uh he was he was an okay human with a a pretty wrong-minded way of looking at the world okay so i'm here shooting an episode of reservation dogs which i'm thrilled about and last night i went out with uh sterling harjo the producer and creator, and Bobby Wilson, the guy who wrote my episode, and Britt Hensel. And we went to a beautiful little restaurant

called Lowood here in Tulsa. It was great. So that's what I'm here doing. I'm going to shoot some reservation dogs. And it was so fucked up, man. I'm talking to Sterling, and he told me, and I knew this, that Sam Kennison's grave is here,

and I owe kennison something you know i need there's there's possibility for full closure because like many you don't know the story and if i just tell you this it's going to sound weird and out of context without you knowing the story but you know when i was a younger person and i was a doorman at the comedy store you know i had a falling out with Kennison you know after spending hours and hours you know hanging out with him doing his coke and listening to him ramble on about the universe but uh I had a big falling out with him and he and it started with him pissing on my bed because I let a satanist uh hang out in there so Sam wouldn't

kick his ass long story so Sam wouldn't kick his ass. Long story. So Sam wouldn't kick his ass. But nonetheless, he peed on my bed. And I never slept in it again since. And I shortly left Los Angeles in a fury of cocaine psychosis. Now, the point is that I always sort of made a promise to myself that I would piss on Kennison's grave to get closure. I've since sort of altered that fantasy because I've let it go and I've processed it.

But Sterling brought it up to me last night that Kennison's grave is here. And I'm like, holy shit, I'm supposed to pee on that. And it's not that I didn't learn things from Sam, but it's payback as a bitch. And if anyone was a fan and a supporter of revenge on an almost satanic basis, it was Sam. And I think that ultimately he would appreciate it. And he's got it coming to some degree.

But like I said, I've let it go. But now I've got to sort of like sit with it. So that's sort of happening. That might happen. I'll let you know if I do find a way to go pee on Kennison's grave. Believe me, this is just a debt. It's not even personal anymore.

It's just something that I need to do. I might need to do it. We'll see. Yeah, I got gotta really process this you know is it is it a good thing for me to go pee on a grave do i need to do that have i grown past that i don't know so right now uh nicole holliff center i just reached out to her because i was thinking about her because i was thinking about lynn And then Michaela Watkins brought it up to me. Well, Michaela called me and said she was looking to cast something in her new movie and I might be good for it. So Michaela mentioned my name.

And then I thought like, I got to call her or reach out to see if she wants to do the show. Yeah. So this is me talking to Nicole Hollell center who did not cast me in her new movie but that's okay you know things happen i might have been perfect for it doesn't matter that kind of stuff doesn't matter in show business and i you know i turned down stuff too who knows what could have happened that didn't but i do know that i talked to nicole howell center and uh this And this is that. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category.

And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+.

We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here,

you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. I can tell you, I don't breathe. What do you mean you don't breathe? Like, when I'm doing one of these and I can tell because I have this on,

I hold my breath when I talk. I hold my breath a lot. Me too. You do? All day. And at night I have apnea. You have apnea? Yeah.

Do you wear a machine? No, I wear a really attractive blue mouth guard. With a tube in it? No, it just juts your bottom forward like this. Oh, my God. It opens up. I hold my breath. I find I hold my breath when I talk.

Because I think if I breathe properly, I'd probably cry all the time. I don't know what your problem is. No, I think the same thing. I've been tempted to take a breathing class. Really? But I'm kind of afraid. Move the mic in. Are you recording me already?

Sure. Of course. What do you mean? I thought you'd say, okay, go. What do you mean? Like there would be an intro? No. Yeah.

Don't be nervous. It's just a conversation. How are your headset? Fine? Yeah, it's fine. Am I good for you? Yeah, you sound good. Yeah. Okay. be nervous. It's just a conversation. How are your headset? Fine? Yeah, it's fine. Am I good for you? Yeah, you sound good. Yeah.

Okay. I just, I'm weird. I never had allergies, but I have them now. I mean, the last few days have been a little weird. Do you have them? I do. Were you fucked up for the last couple of days? No.

You didn't notice? Kind of normal. Really? I have tissue boxes in every corner of my house. So you wouldn't know if the last two days were bad or any worse than last week. Right. Probably not. Right.

Yeah. No. I usually don't do anything for them, but I had this Flonase leftover, like prescription Flonase. That's good. Yeah. I have one of those. And a Zyrtec. Uh-huh.

I take a Zyrtec every day. You do? Yes. And it helps? Yeah. Yeah. Well, so that's why I think all of a sudden I sound so clear to myself. Good. So breathing. Yeah. Yeah, well, so that's why I think, like, all of a sudden I sound so clear to myself. Good.

So breathing. Yeah, so I'll talk, and then occasionally I'll have to. You realize I haven't breathed? Yep. So why don't you take a breathing class? I'm afraid. Afraid of what, crying? Like what you said, I'll just never be able to get up again.

Because that's. Or pass out. Because, like, when I think about just letting it go yeah what's all that emotion right and i've had that i think it's always been that way i've always been a breath holder me too me too um yeah are you mouth are you mouth breather no i am so i guess i win you do your worst i mean, I love to sing. Yeah. But when I sing, like, my throat closes up, like, in the middle of a song.

I can't go past. Your throat? Oh, you can feel it? Yeah. I've been singing in public lately, like, in front of people at Largo and stuff to overcome the fear of that vulnerability. It's a vulnerability thing, the choking and the not breathing. Isn't it actually like a real thing that you need training to learn how to open up these pipes?

Can you sing at home alone without it closing up on you? Oh, yeah. That. Right? True. So, no, it's all fear-based and it's self-consciousness. And to me, there's something, nothing's more vulnerable than singing for some reason. I don't know why that is.

I don't feel that way. Oh, I do. It's terrifying to me. Are you a good singer? No, I'm okay. Sing me a tune. No, I'm okay. I mean, I can do it.

But like the last time I sang, we tried to get through jealous guy uh by john lennon and i did it in rehearsal and i know i can do it but i choked uh during performing it i couldn't hit the notes right and i was so annoyed but i knew the audience knew me and they were willing you know i just said look i i can't go home not knowing i didn't hit that note i'll be too it'd be awful. So we're going to do it again. Yeah, good. And they loved it, I'm sure.

Sure. Yeah. Yeah, they like when people fuck up. Fail, yeah. Yeah, I used to sing with Lynn actually a bit. She liked to sing a lot. And she was a very good singer. I know. I watched her birthday video.

Oh, yeah. Of her singing all those songs. She was great. Yeah, and I sent you that script that her and I wrote over five years. I'm sorry I didn't get back to you, but I just, I couldn't, I couldn't, I couldn't follow through on it yet or something. But I like this story.

You were with her for five years? We knew each other a long time. I mean, we knew each other since she did the podcast, right? So like 2015 or 16, I can't remember what it was. And that's when we sort of started engaging. And, you know, one of the ways we would spend time together is to write that fucking script. An excuse, you mean. Right.

Yeah. Over the years. Mm-hmm. So, you know, and it got very close to, you know, getting near done. And I still picture it and I still have a lot of, like, ideas about how that thing can work and where it would go. But that was, it's pretty close to, the story's all there. Mm-hmm. and I still have a lot of ideas about how that thing can work and where it would go. But it's pretty close. The story's all there.

And then somebody put it in my head that I should finish it with somebody else and she's such a fan of yours, so I thought, well, I'm going to send it to you. And then I did. And I think you liked it, right? I did like it very much. I was happy to proceed. I mean, I felt honored in many ways. Well, it's still here. It's still possible.

If you're willing to go for it again. Maybe it's tough. I don't know if it's tough. It's like, it's about, like, I know that the issue with her and I was just that, like, you know, I would make her laugh all the time, right? And I don't know that what's in there in that script when I read it over again, how much of the comedy needs to be there. And I think that, I mean, I don't know, your approach to comedy, I think, is different.

I don't know that Lynn really did too many comedies other than that last one, which was kind of wacky. In watching some of your stuff, like, I guess the reason that I'm interested to talk outside of, you know, where you come from in the background is like, you seem to have a of you know where you come from in the background it's like you seem to have a you know you have a point of view that's evolving and you have specific things that you want to achieve with movies right i suppose yeah unconsciously well i guess it's just relative to you is like wherever you're at in your life right pretty much yeah but

when where did you come from? New York City. So you're a New York City person? Mm-hmm. You grew up there? I did, until I was 12. And then my family moved to Westwood in Los Angeles. Really? Yeah.

But my formative years, at least certain ones, were New York, for sure. In the city? Yeah. It's so rare to meet people that grew up in New York City. It's exciting. Yeah. So your family's in the arts, right? Yes. All of them have been. Yeah. Like what? How? What did your mom do? Well, my mom was not until later. She became a set decorator

later in life and did a bunch of wonderful films. Yeah, like which ones? Sophie's Choice. Really? Yeah. Radio Days. Yeah. So she became a good set decorator. Yeah, she did.

She was very talented. Where did that come from, though? What did she do when you were growing up? Well, she was a secretary and worked at a travel agency. She was an actress when she was younger, actually. In movies? She quit. No, plays and television when she was really young.

Like child actor? Yeah. Yeah. And then older. And then a little bit older. And she hung out with James Dean. He asked her out on a date. Did she go?

No, she was afraid of him. She said, this guy's too creepy for me. Creepy James Dean. Creepy. He was creepy. And she told her best friend, you know, he's really cool

but he's creepy and then her best friend ended up being with him for a long time. Really? Because she liked creepy. Creepy and weird. Yeah.

Intense and creepy. Yeah. Some people like intense and creepy. I think I do. Yeah, sure. I think I've always been intense but the creepy is I shifted a bit.

I'm not as creepy as I used to be. I don't think I was ever, I don't think I was a bit. I'm not as creepy as I used to be. I don't think I was ever creepy. I think I was angry, as I was putting. All right. So, okay. But I'm no James Dean. So, your mom didn't go out with James Dean?

No, she didn't. She married my father, Larry Hall of Center, instead. Yeah. What's that guy do? Did he do? At that time, he was a lyricist, and he booked the Merv Griffin show, and he wrote for your show of shows. He was a booker on the Merv Griffin show and he wrote for your show of shows he was a booker on the Merv Griffin show yeah and he wrote for your show shows with Danny Simon and all those guys yeah no kidding I don't think for very long um but he did and he wrote lyrics to

some theater and acted and uh throughout his, he became a sculptor. I would say that sculpting was his most successful endeavor. Really? Yeah. He has this big sculpture in London on Bond Street of Churchill and Roosevelt sitting on a bench, life-size, and it's where tourists go and sit between them and take pictures. Oh, really? Yeah.

So it's been photographed more than anything he's ever done. Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. First thing it'll come up. That's interesting, though, like that people just, I like the idea that people like when they switch jobs, they don't ever think of like doing something mundane or with more security.

No. No, I'm going to try something harder. Right. Yeah. I mean, I'm that way, too, but I think it's an artistic sentiment. I don't think that normal people would never do that, whatever normal is. I know. No, sometimes I think, oh, I can't make movies anymore.

I'm just going to become an actress. Like, that's wise. Yeah, good choice. Yeah. You can go read for the people that cast your movies. Exactly. Just throw me in something. Yeah.

Is really, that's your plan B in your mind? No, I couldn't act. I can't. I mean, I think I can act, but I'm too timid to act. Timid? Stage fright, yeah. You're afraid you're not going to breathe or your throat's going to close up? I'm bad, and I can't remember my own lines when I'm watching my own scene being filmed.

I think the trick, and I'm no genius actor, but I think that if you can not be self-conscious while you're doing it in the middle of all those people, then that's like 70% of it. Yeah. It's amazing to me. Amazing. I don't know how it happens where you can just lock in. I don't either. And people do plays, you know, three-hour plays. Well, that's a different thing than memorizing.

Yeah. That's different. It's like another species to me so okay so your parents that's what they did that's what they did and then

yeah my mom ended up marrying my stepfather yeah who produced movies what was that guy's name Charlie Joffe Charlie Joffe

I remember seeing Charlie Joffe what he was up there well I had a weird I had a weird meeting with Jack Rollins oh tell me I remember seeing Charlie Jaffe. What? He was up there. Well, I had a weird meeting with Jack Rollins once. Oh, tell me. But I remember meeting Charlie Jaffe in Montreal at the Montreal Comedy Festival. It must have been in the 90s. And I remember he had some sort of a protege, a woman who was like running his office or something.

I just remember there was someone who worked for his production company. Do you know who I'm talking about? No. That was sort of a big deal. I don't know. But he was like, he was a big presence, that guy. Yeah, yeah. You know, and he was sort of holding court,

and it was very intimidating because you know. It was, yeah. Well, you know that name from all the movies. Right. You know, Rollins and Jaffe. It was just like, if you were a Woody Allen fan, when you could be, it was just always there. Yeah. You know?

Yeah. And he managed a lot of comics, so. Yeah, a lot of that. Dick Cavett he managed, right? He managed Woody. He managed. Robin Williams. Oh, yeah, that's right.

For a while. Billy Crystal. So, what was it like? How old were you when she married that guy? I was eight. So, he was like your stepdad? Yeah. For real?

He was like another dad, at least for a while. They split up when I was 17, but stayed close. And I stayed close with him. And he put me through grad school and college. Really? And was a terrific mentor. Yeah. Well, so you were around that show business.

That's real show business. I was. Your whole life. Well, yeah, that period. Sure. Well, what was that like? What was the scene? I mean, what was the scene?

Were people at the house? There was people at the house. There was a lot of coke. Oh, really? A lot of coke. No kidding. Just around? It was the 80s.

Yeah? And the adults then would just do it in public. I remember I had a cousin who worked for Yves Saint Laurent. He's an accountant. And we were at some birthday party for my grandfather. And he's like doing blowout dessert. Like, it was nothing. I know.

Well, people wore spoons around their necks. So little vials. It was nothing. So there was a lot of coke. And I felt, unfortunately, I always felt too young to really have the kind of fun I wanted to have with these people. Yeah. Because, you know, I was 18 or something, 17. Right.

And I wanted to be 25 so I could hang with Robin as an adult. Right. And all these people as an adult. With Robin Williams? Yeah. He was around? Yeah. Oh.

Yeah. Young Robin. He was sweet. Really sweet. And I was privileged to see him do stand-up in the beginning of his career. In New York or here? Both. Probably more here.

Comedy store. Yeah, that's where he came down. Okay, so you were how old when they moved out here? I was 12 when we moved to Los Angeles. Jaffe lived out here? No, we all lived in New York. And then he moved out here to do more managing and to produce. He wanted to produce TV and movies here, not just Woody.

Right. So that's why you moved because you moved. Yeah. So that was what year? 1972. Oh, my God. Why? So you saw the beginning of all of it.

You would have seen Robin at the Comedy Store in like the late 70s. Yes, exactly. Right. So that's when all that started, when those stars were beginning to happen. Yeah. Yeah, it was thrilling. It was thrilling. Oh, I can't believe it.

I don't know. You know, I got to meet, you know, people I really wanted to meet. That was the best part. When you were like 18 or 19 or 20? Yeah, maybe a little younger. That was the best part. When you were like 18 or 19 or 20? Yeah, maybe a little younger. Like, I remember meeting John Travolta at like the, I don't remember.

Maybe I was like 17, you know. Yeah. And he got me jobs as a production assistant, maybe one or two. Oh, yeah? On what? Those are formative. No kidding. Find out what you're good at and what you're not good at.

Did you? Oh, I was such a bad PA. It's the worst because it's humiliating. Very. And when you're the producer's kid or you know you got your job through nepotism, they run you around. Yeah. But also, I'm too logical. Like they would say, you know, go on that corner and stop traffic.

Yeah. And there was no traffic. Right. You just got to go stand there. So just go stand there. And I'd say, well, why? There and stop traffic. Yeah. And there was no traffic. Right. You just got to go stand there. So just go stand there. And I'd say, well, why? There's no traffic. And it's like, just shut up and go stand there.

Right. You know, so the logic of it made me, you know, furious. And did you, because of that, do you treat your PAs better than that? Oh, so nice. I know their names. I offer them coffee. Yeah. Sometimes I walk by and they won't look up.

And it's like, come on, guys. I'm not, you know, I don't know who, Scorsese or whoever. Look, have eye contact. So what were you PA on? I was a PA on one of Woody's lighter films, a Midsummer Night's Sex Comedy. I was a PA or apprentice editor on Hannah and Her Sisters. Apprentice editor. So that was sort of what you were heading for uh maybe yeah i was just sinking dailies and stuff like that but at that point i knew i wanted to do something in film but i thought it could be

production design or editing it didn't even occur to me to do or to write yeah i always loved writing what so what was like how much did like rollins and joffrey have to do with the movies at that point like really you know in terms of later in the you know like later not so much did you learn anything about production at that time did you understand how it was all structured and all that no oh and i wasn't interested either i'm still not very interested in pretty yeah he's just like who's going to give me money exactly and why aren't they yeah yeah yeah what do i gotta do so is this where you learned or did you go to school i went to school um i went to no i went well i went to many undergraduate schools

um yeah uh it took me six years to get a bachelor's degree. It took me five. Okay. Only because I just wanted to stay one more year so I could drink more and do drugs. That's a good reason. Sure. I was just confused. I mean, I was confused too. Yes, but faster. Much faster.

In five, you were confused for five. I was confused for six. Where'd you go? Which ones did you go through? I started at Sonoma State, then I at uh Sentinoma State and I went to San Francisco State then I went to NYU and graduated

From NYU? Yeah. I took uh that's I started taking film classes Yeah. and graduated

with a terrible terrible short film that was painful to make and I thought I can't do this. What was that? It was actually about me and my sister visiting my father in the country on weekends.

It was called Every Other Weekend in a Month in the Summer, and it was bad, and I had kind of a panic attack the entire time I was making it. And so I thought, well, I can't do this. So that was a concern that because of the reasons why you were having it, you wouldn't be able to do it direct. Correct. Why were you having it? Just because everything was so...

I don't know. I was overwhelmed. I just wasn't ready. And I also felt like I needed to know everything. And the DP who shot my short, short you know was a jerk and you know an asshole dp guy and um but i was just in college yeah you had an asshole dp oh yeah oh they start young yeah well i always went before i started making any television or being part of it yeah i thought that the director had to do everything. And I guess it's really relative to how you delegate, you know, responsibility and who you trust.

I mean, but I imagine you do have to have a handle on most things. Sure. But eventually you learn how to trust your DP or trust, you know, the other people. Yeah. Yeah. But I know what I want and I know what I don't want and that is very helpful. What were you gunning for

at the beginning? Because I watched some of the first movie, the first feature, Walking and Talking, recently. I mean, when you were doing a short, what was it you were trying to do

and who was your influences? I don't know. You don't know. I can't answer any of that. Any of it. Even what the story story was just you just picked a story. I picked this really personal story about my sister and I visiting my father and the horrible routine oh and I had a stepmother who disliked my sister and myself dearly and so it was about her kind of making our visit to my dad really crummy. So in some ways, you know, it was sort of a template for.

Totally. For everything you've done. Everything I've done. And in fact, my stepmother had started to talk about her sex life and how with my father. It was very disappointing, you know, when I was like nine how with my father it was very disappointing. You know, and I was like nine. Yeah. So it was traumatic

and that's what the movie was about. Yeah. Yeah. Isn't it weird that there's no, like my father before he got the brain problem, whatever the hell's happening,

there's just no, there's no statute, the statute of limitations runs out at some point when people get a certain age as to what they can and can't tell their kids. Yes. And it's a very jarring thing because they don't realize it. And that's sort of where that joke that I've been working on about, you know, gaslighting and parenting come from. Is that like when they divulge this stuff, you're like, well, if I had known that. Right.

I could have made entirely different decisions for myself like what well i mean look well well it's not about decisions but like i knew on some level i think you know after a certain point that my dad was a philandering you know guy uh you know and i've had my own issues with that but like you know stuff that he has told me I'm like holy shit I mean you know this has been going on for that long and all that stuff all the stuff that they hid from you is implanted in you

the behavior like they can't they can't hide well I don't have to know about their sex life for it to impact me my sex life no you don't have to know but like it does like what that did was shine some light on my father's character right right so you know i

knew he was you know bipolar i knew he was selfish but you know some of the stuff he told me i'm like oh you're a fucking monster no wonder i felt bad all the time right yeah could give a shit yeah i mean i have kids and and sometimes they'll ask me a question and without thinking, I'll just answer it. And then the look on their face. How old are they? Like they're 24. Okay.

So slowly, you know, they're asking me things about private things. When they were kids? They started when, I don't know. About when they were kids? Oh, yeah. Stuff like when we were. Yeah. Yeah. or before.

I mean, I'm divorced, so they're finding things out about our marriage that never occurred to them to ask. And sometimes I just blurt out an answer and I see their face and it's like they were not ready to hear that answer. Right. What was I thinking? Right. Yeah. Well, they're adults they are and they're different from one another like one asks more questions than the other often so they're different

people so like i like all right so when did you start when did you overcome whatever yeah like what's interesting to me in terms of looking at the stuff you've done is like, I think the last time I talked to you, you were going or just back from writing with Ben Affleck and Matt Damon. Were you just going to Ireland? I don't remember when I sent you that script. Were you back? Because it was middle of COVID, but it was. I have no idea. Okay.

But like, you know, you did that thing. And I love that movie. You did? I did. And I don't think they could have made it without love that movie. You did? I did. Good. And I don't think they could have made it without you. Right. In terms of your point of view.

Well, politically, they also couldn't have made it without me. Well, I get that. But still, like, you know, I don't know that you could trust those two guys to, you know, conceive of a woman's point of view. Or Ridley. Right. You know, so like, any of that, I have to assume, was your input. Yes, it was.

So then when I look at that, which should have been a big movie, but I think, I don't know what the fuck happened. It just tanked. I know, but I talked to Ridley about it, and I think they didn't know how to sell it. And he was like, I don't remember what he said, but he didn't think that was it. Because it's a nice grown-up movie that kind of retrofits some real issues that are relevant now into an amazingly timeless story. I couldn't imagine it would be anything but a success, really. And it got good reviews. Yeah.

I just really think people didn't know what to do with it. They saw Coming Attraction and they were like, maybe I'm done with the Game of Thrones business. I don't know what they – Yeah, yeah. But it's a very sophisticated movie. So when I saw that and then kind of looking back through, you know, how you've handled your career in terms of, you know, doing your own movies, but writing and directing on other people's stuff and directing, obviously, it's a job you do sometimes. Yes, for TV. Yeah.

Yeah. And that's just the way you got to be. Yeah. In order to keep, you know, doing what you want to do. Practicing and making money. I mean, those way you got to be. Yeah. In order to keep doing what you want to do. Practicing and making money. I mean, those are good things to direct. Sure. How did you overcome the fear?

Well, I graduated and I thought, okay, I'm just going to be a writer. I'm going to try to be a writer. So I was writing a bunch of scripts. And then I met these people who had gone to Columbia Film School. Yeah. Through some friends. And they said what a great school it was. And they were working writers.

And they suggested I go there. And so I did. And as soon as I got there, it was the right place. And you have to direct videos of your work and other people's work. It's part of the screenwriting program, too. And I found myself to be good at it and confident. It was smaller and more manageable. Videos as a way to learn?

Yeah, short films. Yeah, like scenes. Instead of like doing 16 millimeter and processing. A $20,000 16 millimeter student film that sucked. I mean, what a waste of everything. Right, right, right. So videos is almost. Oh, no, that wasn't that one.

That much money but yeah um so practice yeah they're so they just needed a lot of practice and i and i found that i was good and that i loved doing it and i had some great teachers and so i made a short film coming out of there and you like that one? the guy and it was in new york and it was really fun really fun and it turned out pretty well um and it you know it got me i think got me an agent yeah and i so i just then i wrote a few scripts that got nowhere for other things or for myself and then movies whole movies yeah but they didn't go anywhere and then i wrote walking and talking, and I met Ted Hope, who was starting Good Machine in New York, which was the place to be if you want to make an independent film. Was this the beginning of independent films, kind of?

Well, in that era. Was this during the boom? Yeah, it was. They'd just done Ed Byrne's movie and Hal Hartley's movies. Oh, yeah. It was like Living in Oblivion. Yeah. Yeah.

Tom DiCillo. Right. And Hal Hartley was the, what was his first movie? Trust and Unbelievable Truth with, yeah. Adrienne Shelley. Adrienne Shelley. Who I went to college with briefly. You did?

Yeah. She was lovely, huh? I knew her husband. Yeah. And I knew her a little bit. Yeah. Terrible. Jesus huh? I knew her husband, yeah, and I knew her a little bit. Terrible. Jesus, terrible story. Unreal.

So that was sort of like the middle of the wave of independent filmmaking. Yeah, I was really in the right place at the right time. It also took me six years to make the movie after I'd written it and met with Ted. For Walking and Talking? Yeah. And, well, it seems like some of that stuff is in there, the unrequited love business and understanding relationships. It seems like that's, but like I said before,

it seems to be sort of a through line through all the movies. I don't guess we ever really nail it, do we? I hope not because I'd have no material. So when you did that, because you definitely, I try to watch what choices directors make and how they handle actors. And it seems like the way you write is very, it's a naturalistic thing, and it takes a certain type of actor to be able to do it. It's not, the difference between, it's really kind of amazing the difference between a standard mainstream movie and a movie that someone has a little more freedom to do. There are scenes in that one, in Walking and Talking, that are very naturalistic. And I imagine, were they improv'd any of them?

Probably not. I mean, well, I wouldn't say a whole scene, but a line here or two, sure. I mean, Liev was great at it, and Keener was. Everybody was. Yeah. So if some actor says a terrific line while we're shooting, I keep it. That's great. Yeah.

I mean, I gave them the freedom to do that. But basically stick to the script. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Otherwise, it would be chaos. And was that... Well, no one knew who Keener was, right?

She'd been in Johnnyny suede and living in oblivion yeah but so but walking talking i think was she kind of broke out of that one right that was like a big maybe i can't take credit for what about he had been in some he had been in the day trippers greg mottola's movie oh yeah i just watched that recently too it's good it is good yeah so i saw him in that i went to school with greg i was friends with greg and um we're at columbia yeah he was one of them yeah what's he doing now didn't he do a big movie recently yeah i think i don't know right now he's in portugal posting pictures i don't know if he's on vacation or not yeah but um yeah he's made some great stuff and and hey super bad and h yeah i i haven't talked to anne no but i mean like she was in that movie that was kind of early in her trip

too right very yeah she was kind of more of an unknown yeah yeah and i had to cast people who were kind of up and coming yeah i'd seen uh kevin corrigan in the slums of beverly hills oh yeah he well he's like the new york indie actor guy like he's kind of shows up he's ever present for about a decade i know yeah right yeah yeah and he was in i put him in um please give too yeah he's so unique what happens so you put this movie together it takes you six years to make. Yeah. Now, is there any input? Do you show it to your stepdad? Yeah. I remember he was very critical because it had a lot of explicit sex in it, more than what ended up in the film. I mean, I rewrote it essentially for six years. So he didn't like that. He didn't like reading that.

So he didn't like that. He didn't like reading that. Otherwise, when he saw the crappy film I made at NYU, he did say, I think you should think about doing something else, Nick. He did. And then by the time I made Walking and Talking, he was a full believer. Oh, yeah? Completely supportive. Supportive? Yeah.

So what happens then? Because I don't really understand. Like, I know, like, I kind of know how indie film works. But, like, you've done a lot of them. So after walking and talking, was there, like, were there people willing to bank on you? Barely. Barely. I mean, it did well.

It got great reviews. But, yeah, it was really hard to get financing for my second movie. It didn't take six years. Did you have it written already? Lovely and amazing? No. No, definitely not. I do one script at a time like every four years.

That's okay? Well, no. But I am who I am. You have some acceptance around that? Yeah. I mean, it's not broken. Yeah. I wish that I had made and will make a lot more movies, but I don't see myself doing that.

Why? Because I don't have a lot of ideas that I want to see through. Yeah. That I want to live with for three years. What determines that? Just a feeling? Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. I mean, if I think I have an idea, I'll sort of sort through my notes and write. And then if it's boring or stupid, I give it up. Yeah. So, yeah. And I just don't have inspiring ideas very often. Well, I mean, it did walking and talking at least. It seems like that got you in the door with directing television. Right. Walking and talking. Yeah, it did everything that I wanted it to do.

I got right after that, my first directing television job was Sex in the City, and only because they saw Walking and Talking. Okay. I got some residual checks yesterday from Sex and the City. Really? Still, yeah. Are they still, like, meaty or no? Mostly, like, 300, 400, sometimes more. That's nice.

It's fantastic. Yeah, it's great. Yeah. I mean, that's a long time ago. Well, then I imagine that being able to do that and move kind of job to job a bit with TV directing, it takes the pressure off finding that idea to do the next movie. It does. And it gives me practice because I direct movies so infrequently. It's like, oh, do I remember how to talk to an actor?

Was it giving you practice? Did you have to sort of frame it like that way at some point? Did you have to convince yourself that it's giving you practice as opposed to standing in the way of you making another movie? Yeah. Yeah, this is good practice for my next film, whenever that might be. Right, right. Yeah. But you always think about making the movie.

Yes. You don't think like, oh, I'm just going to direct television. No, no. But if that ends up happening to me in my old age, I'll take it. But Lovely and Amazing, it was worth the wait. It was a bigger movie. Actually, I got less money for Lovely and Amazing. Didn't it get more attention?

Yes, definitely. It definitely got more attention. Right, that was Lionsgate and it was still only like a million dollars, but I think it's a more mature effort. And like Jake Gyllenhaal was like 12 years old? Yeah, he was 20.

He was 20? He turned 21 right around that time. That's crazy how young he looks. Yeah, because he is young. I know. They all are. I mean Keener's in that one too? Yeah, and Emily Mortimer and Derm. They all are. I mean. Keener's in that one, too. Yeah, and Emily Mortimer. Dermot Mulroney. Dermot's in it, and yeah.

And Clark Gregg. And that guy that I like, that James LeGros guy. Oh, yeah. Like, what happened to that guy? I always liked seeing him, like in Drugstore Cowboy. I thought he was amazing. He was. And then he'd show up here and there.

Yeah. And then it just, I don't know. He's a really was amazing. He was. And then he'd show up here and there. Yeah. And then it just, I don't know. He's a really good actor. He is. And a really nice guy. I don't know. Who knows? Yeah.

It turns out when you ask that about people now, they've done a million things and you just didn't. You have no idea. Yeah. Everyone's doing a million things. Or they're just enjoying their lives and, you know, not necessarily making movies or whatever. I mean, he's a country boy.

How about Dorf? Like coming out of nowhere. Like Stephen Dorf. Yeah. Not necessarily making movies or whatever. I mean, he's a country boy. How about Dorf? Like, coming out of nowhere. Like, Stephen Dorf. I mean, he's not in your movie. Oh. But, like, you just reminded me. Like, he's out there and Malibu loves his life. And then he's, like, right now, after whatever the hell he's been through or whatever, wherever his career went, he's doing the best work of his entire life.

In what? In the True Detective. Oh, I didn't see it. Oh, my God god he's fucking amazing wow and i just great fucking amazing like i was watching and i'm like who is that and they're like it's dorf i'm like what and i had to interview him but i just watched uh old old henry did you see old henry with tim blake nelson that weird little western no dwarfs in that is a heavy and he's fucking great. Wow. I'm sorry.

I don't want to get all excited. But people should see that old Henry movie. Okay. I love Tim Blake Nelson. It's a classic story. It's a classic Western story based on a classic Western story in a way. But if you don't know the twist, it's worth seeing. Okay.

I don't know it. So don't tell me. You should watch it. Do you like Westerns? No. Okay, good. You'll love it then. No country for old men. That's my idea of Western.

That was the extent. What do you like? What are the movies that were like, oh my God? Slasher films. Come on. Oh, oh my God. I mean, so many movies. I mean, Spike Jonze's movies and Charlie Kaufman's movies.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah movies and i mean i grew up loving woody and albert brooks albert and james brooks and um james brooks yeah you know uh yeah hal ashby is one of my favorites i met him once i made a fool out of myself what happened when was this oh i was really young and i was just I think I was maybe 18 years old. And I didn't know what he looked like. And Harold and Maude, of course, was my favorite movie. And I was introduced to him. And this is Hal Ashby.

And I just lost my shit. Your? Oh, my God. I think I pounded the table he was sitting at. Yeah. But he was fine. I've done that. Yeah.

Haven't we all? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. I did it last week with keith richards the second time really the second time i interviewed him this was on zoom and i was still like oh my god you know so how was he with that it's great he just like on a smirked he's great you know he's like you know a lot of these guys who are such uh you know kind of menacing presences are just like you're turning into sweet old men

yeah finally yeah it's the best thing i don't know how you can interview all the people you do and keep your wits about you what do you mean well not that you're not you mean not lose my shit yeah like that i mean if you listen to the first interview i kind of lost my shit but i was still you know engaging you could speak yeah and i was and this one too. I was very obsessed with this hat, which to the point, his people got mad at me. Like, stop talking about the hat? Yes. And I was like, Keith, where do you get these beanies? Because he's like, he looks great right now.

I don't know why I think that. When I was a kid, I wanted to have Keith Richards' guitar, but at this point, he's like, what, is he 80? And he's wearing a beanie, and I'm like, I got to get a Keith beanie. He got them at Urban Outfitters like everybody else. No, it turns out he didn't. He turns out, of course, he got them at a place that sells $400 cashmere beanies. And they sent him a case.

I don't know how it worked for him, but I had to pay for two. You paid $800 for some lame beanies? I did. And they're not even here yet. I can't even tell you if they're the right ones. I just hope they're the right ones. They look good. Even if I don't wear them.

Well, I had to because I shared it with the world, my obsession with the beanie. So I have to follow through whether I want to or not. Even though the world would be like, what the fuck is wrong with you? You spend $800. Spoiled idiot. I got no kids. Yeah. Even though the world would be like, what the fuck is wrong with you? Yeah, you spoiled idiot. I got no kids. Right. I got no debt.

Can I buy a beanie? You're allowed. Uh-oh. This is exciting. On Fridays, when I do interviews, we have a little extra texture with the leaf blower. Which is illegal.

Is it? Yeah, but we need our leaf blowers. Oh, the gas ones are illegal now? I think they can use electric, can't they? Oh, I we need our leaf blowers. Oh, the gas ones are illegal now? I think they can use electric, can't they? Oh, I don't know. Isn't that the shift we're supposed to be making?

Out of gas into electric and chargeable? I can't fucking stand it anymore, Nicole. I can't stand it. Which? The leaf blowers. Oh. Because when you live in a neighborhood like this, every fucking day. Yeah.

Every day there's one right there. You poor thing. Do you have that where you live. Yeah. Every day there's one right there. You poor thing. Do you have that where you live? Yeah. But I'd want my leaves to go away. Otherwise I'd just be...

I want my leaves to go away but I think they should all be done on the same day. Like there should be two days a week where everyone can do that. Yeah. So at least you have

like one or two days a week. You can just split. Well, just be quiet. Just have a quiet morning. Is that so hard? That's what happens when you live in a nice leafy neighborhood. Okay, fine. quiet. Just have a quiet morning. Is that so hard? That's what happens when you live in a nice, leafy neighborhood. Okay, fine.

You're saying I have luxury problems? I should shut the fuck up. Yeah. So, speaking of luxury problems, like Friends with Money, I do remember that movie very well. Oh, good. And it was one of those movies where it's like, you know, some people are really going to be bothered by this movie because of the way these people live. Sure. It was just like we were talking about and what were you when when you made that movie with those women thinking well no but i mean were you like these are my friends i'm gonna be honest oh wait what do you mean well this is the world i live in oh yeah because i also am i feel are i am Also, I feel I am representing their faults and their limitations.

And, you know, that's what it's about. So it was also, you know, not at a time where I think we have to be much, much more conscious about the movies we make right now and the audience for them. I don't think I could make that movie now. Why? A bunch of white people in a white people problem movie and yeah i mean i'm about to make another one um and i think you know that's not been easy because of that because of the climate right now scott kahn was good wasn't he yeah he's is funny. Yeah. I liked working with him a lot. He was very game. Yeah?

Mm-hmm. Yeah. I mean, everyone, I had a really great experience on that movie. It was a great cast. It was Aniston and, oh, yeah, Joan Cusack. Yeah. Francis. I got to work with my idols, so I was just pinching myself.

I mean, I'd been chasing Joan Cusack since Working Girl. And I couldn't get the agent to even, you know. How does that work? Like, when you want somebody, how does it, like, what do you, what kind of, how often do you get them? I mean, obviously, Keener you've been working with forever. Mm-hmm. But Frances McDormand? Just, I guess, that script.

I mean, or they liked, I mean, the movie I made before it was lovely and amazing. So, I guess if they saw that. Right. And they liked liked it and, you know, good female parts don't come around. I think also like within that movie and like in the Friends of Money thing, I mean, there must be some element of like purging, you know, or owning the lifestyle that we kind of live. Yeah. Well, I think all my movies have that. Yeah. but we kind of live. Yeah, well, I think all my movies have that.

Yeah. I think, you know, they're so autobiographical that I'm willing to show my shallow life. And I guess... Is it shallow? In some ways. I mean, it's definitely self-absorbed. Yeah. And that my movies are about my own self-absorption and my friends and the world. But I'm curious about so many things in human behavior that I hope I'm also expressing that.

Yeah. The depth of human behavior in people you might think of as shallow or... Just by getting to the core of humanness is really the thing that kind of undermines shallowness. Exactly. That we're all people. Yeah. I mean, I did make fun of that in Friends With Money with John Cusack and Greg German, who were the rich couple. Right, right.

And they have great sex and they smell good and they have no problems and that and i let that be like maybe that is you know what it's like of course it's not but it was fun no no of course not i have real problems with that i think like you know when we're all, I don't think we're all narcissists, but we're certainly self-centered. And how much of what we think other people are doing or living is something we're just making up all the time. Say that again? I'm sorry. We make up other people's lives. You know, we make assumptions based on nothing. I do it all the fucking time.

Yeah. And I guess there's really no way you can know unless you really know those people. Or you don't know how fragile the dynamic is. Like even in that first movie, walking and talking with those two girls, I mean, those two women as they become women. And also the way you establish stuff when people are kids I think is very good. I like that screenplay you wrote for that horrifying story about the two girls that killed a black baby. Oh, thank you. Holy shit.

Yeah. But dealing with young people but dealing with like young people and dealing with the the impact of those moments is kind of crazy but my point is uh you know you don't even know your best friends really sure you do you know what they do and you know how they react to you but there's always room for surprise. Always. Absolutely. And they're never exactly what you want them to be at all times. Do you have best friends? Yeah, I do. For a long time?

Yes. Very, very lucky. Yeah. Since high school and college, we're still very close. Really? And some more college. And I've made some new friends, which is amazing to me, too. Yeah, kind of. Huh. Isn't that weird? A little bit. And I've made some new friends, which is amazing to me, too. Yeah, kind of.

Huh. Isn't that weird? A little bit. And it's really nice. It always seems to take a little more effort than I've... It does. And I always get very disappointed when sometimes we're like, okay, we're going to try to be friends. And you have that one friend date.

And then it's just sort of like, I guess it didn't work out. Guess you didn't like me that much. Well, there's a kid that I do comedy with who went on a hike date, and then it's just sort of like, I guess it didn't work out. Guess you didn't like me that much. Well, there's a kid that I do comedy with who went on a hike with me once, and we work together at the comedy store all the time, and sometimes I bring him up and I say, this guy, we tried to be friends, but it didn't happen. What does he say?

Well, he's got a good sense of humor. Yeah. He's kind of an asshole, but a funny asshole. That's funny yeah the yeah it's harder to make friends when you're older but they actually do what i do yeah and that is really nice i didn't always have so many friends in the movie business but it's really nice to have people to complain to on the same level in this world that we live in yeah and learn from and yeah so how so how do you make

friends you know later in life just change your expectations lower the bar yeah not lower the bar but like it seems like the ones that are older and been through everything for him with you you are like they know you when you're like i need to if to, you know, that tends to go away, doesn't it? Yes, it does. No, actually, not really. How come you didn't? Yeah. Yeah. The new friends, I don't know, they kind of materialized naturally, met them, you know, on with mutual friends.

And it's like, hey, should we get together? Which is a little scary. And you get together. And actually, it was kind of nice. And then when do we stop talking about work? When do we start talking about personal things? And then we do. And then you realize you're friends.

Yeah. Yeah. My boundaries don't enable me to. Like lately, I just like certain people have just I get exhausted. I don't want to fucking. I know. I mean, I'd be your friend, but you live too far away.

Yeah. I don't like, I don't want to be my friend. No, I do want to be your friends, but like, but I, I don't think I'm clear as to,

you know, like I have like one or two people where I'm like, like can see me properly. And it's a relief, but I can't break any new people in i understand breaking new people it's pretty funny i used to do a bit about that about how like you know who are these people with with many friends all you need are two you need the main guy yeah and the guy you go to when you drain the main guy that's pretty true i'm terrified that you know they're they're gonna die before me and i don't know what i'm gonna do but we don't have to go there what a what a ridiculous fucking life

all right so what's it when how when you decide to write a movie or direct i don't know have you directed like whole movies that weren't yours? No. I almost did. I almost did a couple of times. Well, I was going to direct several movies. Every secret thing, that one about the dead baby, I was going to direct. It felt like you should have directed it. Well, thanks.

But I wrote the script intending to direct it, and I couldn't nail the script. I couldn't nail it. What do you mean? There was just a character in it that I couldn't solve. Which one? The detective. The main person who... Not a wizard at the banks? Yeah. Okay. Okay.

And I also, that was the main reason. But I think I was also a little afraid to deal with the dead baby and the screaming baby. My kids were younger in the editing room, like living with that. Oh, really? Yeah. So that was an obstacle. But what do you mean you couldn't nail the character? You were afraid you couldn't direct it because you didn't quite understand it yet. Yeah.

You were able to write it? No, I couldn't write her well. Well, then who wrote it? Well, I guess Amy Berg took over. But did she change the script? Probably some. Yeah. And, you know, I was going to direct what became 50-50.

Yeah. And I was going to direct it and I worked with the writer and it was really fun all these guys they were great and um i thought it was going to be shot in la and they decided to shoot it in vancouver and part of the reason why i could do it was because it was in la yeah at the time one of my sons was in a new school and was getting bullied. Oh. And I couldn't leave him. I just couldn't leave him. Really? Yeah.

How old was that kid? It was like the beginning of middle school, 12 or something. Well, that's good that you prioritized your family over the career. I know, a fool, but I would do it again. And, you know, they weren't happy, but it turned out really well. Well, let me ask you, because, you know, I know that Lynn, being my point of reference

with people who are directing movies and independent directors, like, there is a point where, like, she really needed to do it her way. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, to the point where the one experience I think she had when she was given a bigger movie was not great.

What was that? Laggies. Oh. And I think it was a little difficult with all the people who had power. Right. Even in directing some television, I think it was similar. Yeah. So to the point where I really wonder, because clearly when she died, things were turning and it was going to be a bigger career.

But I really wonder how it would have panned out if someone said, we direct this Marvel movie. Yeah. What would you do? I wouldn't do it. I'd be crazy, but I wouldn't do it. I don't think, well, because, I don't know, life's too short. Yeah, and when you direct a movie, it's a couple years at least a lot yeah and to direct a marvel movie would i imagine be a lot of ulcers a lot of stomach and knots um and also how do you represent your point of view i mean

that's what you're used to making movies yeah yeah no it would be um some people i guess feel excited by that challenge i wouldn't feel excited by that particular challenge. Well, what about any big movie? Well, yeah, if I think it's great, sure. And if I could make a lot of money one day, that would be really nice. But it hasn't happened. Yeah, it hasn't happened. Well, I'd like to please give, I don't remember if I, enough said if I saw it, sorry. You should see enough said,

Julia Louis-Dreyfus and James Bond. Oh no, I did see it. I did, it was the last one before he died. Yeah.

You know what I remember about that movie? Is, you know, that, you know, clearly James was trying to, you know,

do something other than Tony Soprano. Oh. And, you know, trying, and just, I remember his performance

very specifically and realizing that he was a great actor with an amazing range. And it was kind of interesting to see how vulnerable he could get. Yeah, cool. So I remember all that. That's a good takeaway. And you did that? I did, but he was ready. He was there. I didn't have to do much.

Yeah? No. It seemed like he died before it came out, didn't it? Yes, he did. He died right after he did some ADR, and that was the only time he saw scenes from the movie, and he was really hard on himself and didn't want to see any cuts. And when he did see some pieces in ADR, I don't know, he hung his head. He was like, oh, God, I would look like such a pussy. What?

Yeah. Oh, yeah. He was so afraid I was going to make him. And I was like, yeah, your character's a pussy. Yeah. And we all love him. And get over it. Yeah.

But then, yeah, he died like a couple of weeks after that. Fucking brutal, man. Yeah. Really sad. Really, really sad. And Julia is like fucking couple of weeks after that. Fucking brutal, man. Yeah, really sad. Really, really sad. And Julia is like fucking amazing. Mm-hmm. She is amazing.

She's going to be in my next movie. What's it about? You don't have to tell if it's going to ruin it for you. Ruin it for me? Well, I mean like... Well, it's a lot of family dynamics. It's comedy, drama. And it's a lot about how to support those you love without having to lie to them. Huh.

Yeah. I mean. Is that possible? No. Spoiler alert. And if you over support your kid, your kid wants to prove you wrong. It's just stuff like that. Families and relationships.

But these are all these things that live with your characters in movies. That there's this fundamental unsolvable tension to relationship. Yeah. Isn't there always? Yeah. tension to relationship yeah isn't there always yeah but like but and i guess that even though you know that i'm saying you as people you still try to control or or you know have a handle on it it's very hard to let go i mean i don't solve anything it's really just exploring how and why and can we, and because I don't have any answers.

And, you know, people will say, oh, now that you wrote about that, are you over it? And it's like, not at all, not in the least. Yeah, because you have to deal with it every day on some level if there's other people involved in your life. Yeah. But the Land of Steady Habits, that was like, you know, that was like the outer edges of of what people can go through and handle pretty bad really sad you didn't like it i loved it oh you did yeah oh good

okay that guy it's mendelsohn right yeah he's like something else that guy he's genius i just how's he doing love him uh oh god you gotta call him? I sent him a text. Yeah. And he sent me a text right back. Yeah. And I was so happy to get it. Yeah. And then it promptly went out of my head. You forgot.

And now it's just hanging there. Yeah. How long has it been? A couple of weeks. Oh. A week. Yeah. I do that all the time.

I love him. You do? I do too. I'm like so happy to hear from them. You can't get it. Well, some part of your brain registers and it closes the file right you're like oh

right yeah and it's just like I did that and then you realize I probably could have said something more could have responded exactly and it has nothing to do with

how important that person is to me that's what's scary because I adore him every few days maybe once a week you got to scroll through your text and answer and not remember when you're on air

exactly well it's nice it was a real moment it was yeah it was a good it was a good moment yeah off script off you know otherwise this is all scripted yeah yeah personal script yeah yeah i thought that movie was great i liked it thank you because it just kept getting worse and worse it did yeah it did i really loved the book were like, why do you want to make this movie? And it's just, I don't know. It was a good book. It was a good story. You like adapting books?

I liked adapting that one. Yeah. And I liked adapting Can You Ever Forgive Me? Did you want to direct that? I was going to direct that. What happened with that one? Family trauma? You don't know? You didn't look it up? No, no. I'm not great direct that. What happened with that one? Family trauma? You don't know?

You didn't look it up? No, no. I'm not great at research. Sorry. When you interviewed Obama, I bet you did some research. Yeah, but I hate doing that. That made it a very regimented interview. I'd rather miss things and have a real conversation then you know no too much going i've heard you say that

that i didn't want to read your book before yeah i mean the only time i'll read books is if i don't know about the person or i'm not sure they can talk and the problem with reading people's books is you'll lead them and you already know all the answers right right but like, it's not books with you. But I mean, I don't, was there some sort of controversy? It was horrible. Oh. Okay. I mean, I adapted it to direct and cast it. Julianne Moore.

Yeah. Was going to be in it. Yeah, I love her. And we started working on the character and we got... We didn't see eye to eye. You and Julianne Moore. Yeah. She wanted very much to do it her way

and to sort of keep me out of it, which I was unaccustomed to. Right. And I don't know if she works that way always, but that was my experience and um so literally five days before shoot i mean everything was done yeah um i i let her go yeah yeah you fired julianne moore because you knew it wouldn't work with what you had pictured it to be correct and i didn't think it was going to be any fun.

Like I had a knot in my stomach. And you wanted to tell a story. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And socially, I adored her. Yeah. I did.

But I felt like this is going to be a battle. And I think she felt it too, but was willing to go ahead. And I don't know it too, but was willing to go ahead. Out of curiosity, now that we all know how McCarthy did it, what was it about So different. Yeah, well McCarthy's got this built-in comedy engine that makes even her most pathetic and craven emotional impulses not so menacing.

Right, right. Yeah. More lovable. Right. I think that with Julie, she would have been closer to Lee Israel in terms of that. Uh-huh. But, you know, she's an incredibly talented actor. I don't change my mind about that.

It just was not a good fit. And then what happened? And then, and then Searchlight who made the movie said, do you want to push it for two weeks and see if you can recast it? Yeah. And I tried. Yeah.

And no one was available that I wanted. And they said, do you want to come back in a year and try over, try it over? And I felt like I'd made the movie. I mean, when you're five days away from shooting every, every, every silverware, the kind of clothes, the shoes, the locations, everything has been chosen. Right. And I was exhausted and burnt. And I said, no. So of course, when Marielle Heller made such a great movie and incredibly successful what was i thinking um but you know she did a great job and i got a lot of attention

and academy award nomination for it and um you know sadly it's kind of the movie people will say to me that they love the most of my films right but i didn't direct it but you said it's kind of a mix you can take half ownership exactly it's a little bittersweet right um but do you do you regret it um yeah i don't know it would have been a different film so who were you thinking oh, I don't want to. Lots of people who were about to go on vacation or, you know, couldn't do it. Yeah. Interesting.

So, but you, are you happy with the, the way it. Very much. Yeah. I mean, there's certain things I would have done differently, but I think it was really good. Obviously people love that movie now when you like what do you think is your your strong suit as a director because i like what do you do do you work pretty close with actors i mean yeah i don't do a ton of rehearsal no yeah i i like it fresh and i give them freedom to tell me what they think stinks.

Yeah. And to say something better if they want to. I think I'm a pretty disarming person. Yeah. And I think that it helps them to feel safe. Yeah. To try things and be stupid and I respect them so much much for that yeah um but you know i think it starts with the writing i think that i don't ask actors generally to behave in a way that isn't

natural or human right um and when you know like i guess the trick to directing is when you do a take it is just somehow in your gut you you know, when it's the right one. I mean, that seems to be the whole thing. And it's unique, especially when you do movies like you do, where it's all sort of about the emotional honesty of any given scene. Right. It's not about whether, you know, the pyrotechnics worked or the car blew up at the right time. No, that would be so boring. It's like, did their chin quiver?

Easier to read. Did their eyes tear up? Or did they surprise me in some fantastic way? I mean, if you cast really good actors and the script is pretty good, I feel like my job is pretty much done. You can just feel it set. Like if you see a take, you're like, huh.

Yeah. Yeah. It's thrilling, too, because, you know, having James Gandolfini and Julia in my living room reading my scenes, I'm kind of looking over my shoulder. Like, who's the director here? It's interesting, too, because with those two people in particular, that they were kind of like, you know, anytime Julia has to tone it down, it's like that's the job, you know, for her. Because, like, see, she's so naturally comedically genius. Right? So anytime she has to almost become more real, you know, that's where you really see, like, what's going on in there.

Right. So it's a real performance. And then with him having to like not- Want to kill someone. Yeah. Not be, yeah. That was great, yeah. She, but Julia is a pretty serious person.

I have talked to her, yeah, I can see that. But like there's no one more naturally comedically gifted than that person. Yeah, and having her on the set just cracking me up and cracking everybody up i just i can't even understand it yeah her and like in like pharaoh will pharaoh it's like they can turn it on and you're like what is what is that and they can turn it off totally yeah yeah turn it off like be a regular human being and that's how when i met with julia to do that you know we

had lunch and at first i was like but she's elaine she's elaine she you know how can i get past that and it took about 10 seconds we were talking about our kids and um is what's she doing in this next one is she gonna be hilarious is she gonna be slapsticky uh slapsticky no i don't think there is slapstick in this one but plenty of room for her to be a fool. Plenty. In a good way. Oh, good. Yeah. Vulnerable, insecure.

Oh, good. You know, kind of a mess. Now, can we just talk about The Last Duel for a minute or two? Because I really love the movie, and I think people should see the movie. Good. I think people should, too. I wish they would. I think it's on a streaming service.

How do you get that call from those guys to be like, hey, we need a lady? That's pretty much it. I'll be your lady. Can you write girl stuff? I knew Ben a bit, and so I got this email from him, which I did occasionally, but it was an email that just made my head spin off. I couldn't believe I was, do you want to write something with me and Matt? And I don't know if they said what it was at the time, but of course I said yes. And then they said what it was, and I went and met with them and said, I don't know how to do this. What do I know? I don't know how to speak like this um and they said neither do we wow and they showed me their work and it was like yeah I can do that yeah whatever they're

doing I can do that and it became not easy but I got used to speaking like that and learning how to so what what but was the job primarily her story from her point of view yeah they wrote the first two so i started writing scenes for her i'd send them the scenes some things would make that change in there it would make their scenes change with and eventually it became a collaboration of all of us i mean I didn't really touch the battle scenes, but the marriage scenes in all three parts, we all had a part in them. But I wrote a lot of Marguerite's story or all of it,

and they gave me notes that were really helpful. Whose idea were the shoes and how the shoes came off or whether she took them off or they fell off? Ridley. That wasn't in the script. That was a pretty... That was good. Pretty good yeah he's he's kind of good he is yeah and and he he believes that no kidding no kidding i think he wanted to kill me while i was on the set

you did what a little bit well because you know i've never been a writer on the set of someone else directing. It's not like he's not a brilliant director. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, sometimes you see a scene differently. Yeah. And so, you know, I had to learn how to shut up and, you know, be the invisible writer. Uh-huh. Which was fine.

It was a great experience. Yeah. Yeah, I don't, like, again, I think people should see it. I thought it was, and so working with them, were you in Ireland? Were you there with them?

Yeah, well, we worked on the script here and then went to France, shooting in these castles, and it was just an amazing experience I would never have. And then COVID hit, and we all went home. Yeah.

And then picked it back up in Ireland, which was supposed to be that way. Yeah. And I came for some of it. You like Ireland? Yeah. It was great. It was beautiful. This dalky town and it's very sweet and nice.

I think I was the only Jew in the neighborhood. Yeah. Because I always think about, like, it's my fantasy to live in Ireland. And then I wonder, like, am I, how do they feel about Jews? But I think the mayor of Ireland. They don't know anything. Mayor of Ireland is Jewish? Mayor of Dublin is Jewish.

Really? Or he was, or is there, am I wrong? I have no idea. He's either gay or Jewish, maybe both. I remember being in a taxi cab and i was trying to understand the troubles you know let you explain the catholics and the protestants to me you gotta watch belfast yeah yeah and i um and then he wanted me to explain jewish people and are all he thought all jewish people were kosher and all jewish people wore the hats oh really yeah really? Yeah, really naive. Lovely man. But it was another world.

Yeah. Yeah. So don't move there? Maybe not. Unless there's a Jewish quarter. I think there was. I think there's a couple there. Well, it was good talking to you.

You too. Do you feel good about it? I do. Okay, good. And I breathed. You did? I didn't hear you gasping. There we go.

I didn't sense any panic. No. No, I think we covered a lot of good stuff. Yeah, and it's a good time to end. My throat hurts. Okay. Thank you so much, Mark. Nice to talk to you.

You too. Nicole Hov Center, working on a movie with Julia Louis-Dreyfus and not me. So, and go watch her other movies. They're quite great no music today i have no harmonica i do not want to play air trumpet boomer lives monkey lafonda cat angels are definitely everywhere and all kinds of spirits man all kinds of spirits experience. We'll be right back. Almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice? Yes, we deliver those. Goal tenders, no.

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