WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1329 - A Tribute to Dan Vitale

Episode Date: May 9, 2022

Marc remembers the life and comedy of Dan Vitale, a comedian whose raw and unapologetically personal style of stand-up was a big influence on a young Marc Maron. Marc talks about how his perception of what it meant to be a stand-up comic changed while watching Dan, how their talk in 2014 exemplified WTF, and how the connection they maintained in the following years helped Marc through the darkness. Marc also shares the entirety of Dan's episode from March 2014. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Lock the gate! All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fucknicks? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast, WTF.

We're going to do something different today that is post in its entirety an episode I did with Dan Vitale in 2014. Now, the reason we're doing this is Dan passed away last week. And I don't know if anybody who listened to this, outside of maybe hearing the episode that I did with him, really puts him into context. And I left the intro intact of the original episode. It was from March 2014. I recorded it in New York City. It was important for me to track Dan down and talk to him for a few reasons. And some of them I discuss with him and some of them I discuss leading up to the episode. But in retrospect, given that so many people in my community are passing away, are dying, you start to think in a way like, you know, man, death is all over. It's always all over. Everybody dies, man.

And you never know when it's going to happen. And there are certain ages where in your mind you think it's, well, that was, you know, he had a good life, or, you know, or that's tragic, or that was way too young. And people say that about 80-year-olds now. Like, that was, he was young for these times. Was he, though? But Dan was in his 60s, I imagine. I don't know his exact how old he was.

I do know he had heart disease. And I do know that his partner came home after being out of town and found him in the house. But the reason that I sought him out to begin with is that he was a very unique performer, a very unique comic, a very unique guy. He was a guy that was poised to have everything, a career in show business, and blew it because of his own demons and how hard he was a guy that was poised to have everything, you know, career and show business and blew it because of his own demons and how hard he was on himself and how, uh, how important, you know, standup was. It was ultimately, I think it was too important for him, you know, to really carry on with it in any consistent way.

And you just don't meet too many performers like that. This guy, way and you just don't meet too many performers like that this guy dan had this like explosive sensitivity about him and he was hyper you know kind of present and always trying to work things out for himself mentally intellectually doing the big work and whatnot. And I just remember watching him. When I watched him on stage, he wasn't struggling with performing. He was struggling with himself. And that in and of itself can be a funny disposition. But it was genuine. And he was one of these performers

where every set meant something. That if he was going to go up there for 10 minutes it had to it had to land it had to be deep it had to resonate it had to to work for him and the audience in a deeper way than than just getting laughs the premium was on the depth of the humor and of what was being said. He had a true artist spirit about the thing. He did get sober years ago, and we've stayed in touch. But it's one of these situations where a lot of times I have these conversations with people, and then they pass away, and then I repost them.

And my connection with them may have been just as deep as that conversation and then there are people that for whatever reason even if it's not much more than that conversation have had a deep impact on my life in my process of of sort of putting myself together from scratch from the ill-defined sort of uh fragmented self that I was sent off into the world with. And Dan was just one of those guys, you know, we did keep in touch. So I just, I texted him like two, two and a half weeks ago when I was in New York and he didn't get back to me. But then he left a voicemail. He didn't recognize, he had changed phones. And we seem to like just text on and off every few months. And always few months, and it was always funny.

He was one of the first guys I went to when I actually wrote a joke or was trying to sort of work out a way to approach Lynn's death on stage. He was very supportive during my grief time. He texted, checked in occasionally. But I remember he was the guy I'm like who can I tell this to who is who can handle this you know and who will I not feel weird and ashamed about telling

me this joke that I came up with like a few weeks after Lynn passed away which is now you know in my performance it's in my act or in my show right now. And I referenced Dan as, I don't say his name on stage, but I've been saying that I called this guy who I knew was the dark Buddha. He was the only guy I could tell at this moment. And that was Dan. And, you know, he laughed. He was like, oh, my God, what are you going to do with that? And, well, I figured out a way, Dan.

But oddly, we would text occasionally about people passing away you know we and we would he would he just sent me a text about he was making fun of the sam elliott thing and uh and recently you know we were talking about dom irera and i hooked him up with dom and you know they hadn't talked to each other in 20 years and it was nice he said a text says I just had a long talk with Dom a lot of laughs still sounds like he's got the spirit thanks for prodding me and his phone number love you man then he texted me about William Hurt dying and I said uh yeah man you can only get away with life so long he would text me when people died know, so I didn't get a text about him. But he just had a big impact on me. And I'll put him into context in the show, in the intro that you'll hear soon. And I'm here in Tulsa still, and I went to the Dillon

Center yesterday. And it's so funny that we were, were you know he had left me this message about the in memoriam thing that lynn was in on the oscars and he texted me here's the he'd left him a rambling message i don't i don't i don't have it anymore but he said uh here's the dylan lyric i was trying to quote quote time is a jet plane it moves too fast oh but what a shame if all we shared can't last unquote he said uh Dan says, you know, Mark, life has taught me you can learn a lot from Dylan, but you can also probably learn a lot from Carrot Top. He was a funny guy, a thoughtful guy. This episode was from March 2014, but if you've been listening to the show for a while, you hear a lot of, you hear a lot of the, the familiar stuff that I always talk about, you know, the themes of my show,

you know, about, about life and comedy and, and what I think standup comedy is or what the, you know, what I think is important in standup comedy. And, you know, Dan and I talk about all that stuff. We talk about our, our, our love for jackie vernon you know comics that made a sort of an impact on us when we were younger and it's a very good sort of time capsule it's a real it's a good episode sort of exemplifying you know what we were trying to do with this show with wtf and and what i was able to get out of it personally for myself by connecting with people especially people that you know i i hadn't talked to or seen or heard from in a while but but as as a guy you know dan vitaly wrote a couple of the best jokes i ever heard in my life because they were so real and so resonant

and so fucking deep it was satisfying he was a real fucking artist this guy and and he really just couldn't he just fought the fight and it was hard for him to get up there but i just wanted to to give him this this tribute and also to you know post this episode again you know on a on a regular show day but i love the guy you know and again it's weird i can't explain it it's not like we spent a lot of time together but there was it was a time when I was very impressionable and it was very important uh comedy was very important to me and what and how to do it and I just always the you know the guy just was somehow part of my heart you know it's like the saget you know I didn't know that guy that well but he was somehow connected to part of my heart and in a dark way you know it was like this thing I said on the last episode I'm in Tulsa you know

and Kennison is buried here and you know and he and that guy really kind of profoundly uh hurt me when I was younger yeah because I'm a sensitive guy that's you know that's why we do comedy and you know he kind of terrorized me and really kind of fucked me up. And it was all very specific. And I wanted to have the last word. I'd spoken kind of glibly about, you know, going to his grave and peeing on it because I owed him that. And I thought about that for years. But, you know, I went out there and I got to the grave and, you know, and I knew I wasn't going to do it. But I didn't know that I would find forgiveness in my heart for that guy and

actually have a few laughs and think about some of the amazing experiences I had at that time in my life, given they were drug-fueled insanity and that things got out of control. But I got a lot of good laughs and a lot of good stories, and whatever trauma I had has dissipated and been resolved. And I was able to find forgiveness for a fairly brutal dude. But that's what happens. If you live long enough and you put death into perspective and you really put your own selfish sort of emotions into perspective. But that's just a reflection on death and the death around me as I get older. But this guy, Dan Vitale, was truly a force of nature, a real hot frequency. And I reached out to his partner, who I hadn't seen in years and I really haven't talked to,

I reached out to his partner, who I hadn't seen in years and I really haven't talked to, just to express my condolences and say, let me know if there's anything I can do to help. It's not an empty gesture, because I would if I could. And if there was something someone needed, I would do it. But it's just something you say. And she said something. She said, I'm okay. Just can't get used to the world without Dan Vitale.

And that's an intimate relationship, but that's sort of what happens. The absence. Whatever your relationship with somebody who has passed away, somebody that was part of you somehow, you're always going to, the relationship becomes with an absence and the weight of that. Rest in peace, Dan Vitale. I loved you. Here's my conversation with Dan Vitale from March 2014, including the introduction.

Dan Vitale. Let me tell you about Dan Vitale. Dan Vitale was a force to be reckoned with. When I got to New York in the late 80s, 1989, the original improv was one of the only places that I could work. The original improv, what was left of it up there on 44th Street, was Bud Friedman had left and built his empire, and the original improv where everything started was under the control of Bud's ex-wife, Silver Friedman,

who ran the place and micromanaged it down to your act, to who you were, to who she let on, and to what she had things to say about you. But it was sort of a beat-up place, and it kind of had the vibe that it was on its last legs. But it was the original improv, so it had the sort of history to it, and it had all these weird old pictures. It was the place. It was the original club. It was the original brick wall.

The original improv on 44th Street was a small room. The chairs were beat up. The sign on the wall, hanging on the brick wall that said the improvisation was missing a letter. All the chairs were, some of them were built into the wall. It probably seat less than 200 people in there. It was a tight little room with a front bar. And it just looked like it was beat up. It wore all the history right on the chairs, right on the walls.

We felt it all. It wasn't haunted. It was just a little bit beat up. And it felt like it was almost over. But being able to work there, you kind of felt like, well, at least I'm catching the tail end of this. At least I've stood in front of the original brick wall, the first one, where it all started. Where all the people in New York started to come back in the early 70s or late 60s. You felt it all. But when I got there, there was this dude, Dan dan vitale i never heard of him i didn't know

who he was but he was one of these guys that a sort of mythological tale surrounded him you know at the time he was very heavy you know he'd get up on stage and he was one of the first guys i'd ever seen get up on stage and literally look at an audience and go you know what yeah i don't know if we're gonna get along i don't know if we're going to get along. I don't know if we're going to hit it off. And he would just wrestle with himself on stage. I'd never seen anything like it. There was, you know, this amazing sort of bombastic sort of wit and confidence mixed with this utter, complete, angry insecurity.

It was fascinating to me that he could let himself be that way on stage and that he was that way off stage, too. He just struggled with himself. But he had brilliant jokes. I've quoted some of the jokes on this show to other people and talking to Dom Irer. But I just used to love watching this guy and hang around this guy

because I'd never seen someone so actively struggling with himself, with his past, with substances, with everything. But the story was that he was the next big guy. He was that guy. He was really the the story was that you know he was the next big guy he was that guy you know he was really the first story that it was the first time i ever heard that story we're like yeah man he was poised to be the guy at you know for lauren michaels lauren michaels took a shine to him and he got to he got the shot and he just blew it because he couldn't control his his his personality or his substances or anything.

He just blew it and then he fell hard. And this is what's left of him. And I loved what was left of him. Because it was so brutally raw and human and honest in a way that being humbled gives you. You can fight being humbled. But if you are humbled, you can't hide it. You can fight humbled you know you can't hide it you can fight it but you can't hide it it's a it's tough to find grace in that i guess grace is a theme but i was sort of obsessed with vitality and then there was that period there i remember there was this one time

you know bill hicks lived in new york for about a day maybe less than a year he just decided to move here he was doing sets at the improv no. No one really understood Hicks. He just blew that room apart. Vitaly and Hicks were buddies. They became friends. Then we used to sit and watch. I remember one time I sat and watched Brian Regan with Bill Hicks and Vitaly was there. I just remember this one time where me and Bill Hicks and Dan Vitaly, it was New Year's Eve and we were at the improv. We had nothing to do, no parties, no nothing. And we were like three blocks away from where the ball drops. And I'd never seen it.

I never wanted to go over there. I never wanted to fucking deal with the massive crowds and all the bullshit. But Hicks had never seen it. So me and Vitale are standing there and Hicks is like, let's go, man. Let's go see it. And I'm like, dude, we're not even going to get close to it to it i mean we were on 44th and like between 8th and 9th and it's happening at 42nd and you know time square and there were people already backed up to almost to where we were but hicks is like man i gotta see it i gotta see it and we went out i just

remember the three of us you know these fucking rogue comedians you know friendless and without definition life-wise other than our gypsy existence. We're trying to plow through the essence of mainstream culture, you know, to get to watch this spectacle. And we got about a block and we didn't know what to do. We couldn't move. It was horrible.

And Hicks is just sort of like, ah, fuck this. Let's go back to the improv and do the countdown. So we wandered back and just, you know, sat there and waited for New Year's to happen. The three of us, in my memory, were just alone in the bar at the improv, you know, waiting for New Year's to happen. It's just a beautiful New York sort of, you know, sad but kind of pretty moment, you know. But Vitaly, man, I just, he's, man, I've always had a big place in my heart for him. And I'm very thrilled that I was able to talk to him. And I hope you enjoy this conversation.

This conversation with Dan Vitaly took place at the London Hotel. I don't think I'd sat down and talked to Dan in over 20 years. Over 20 years. I think I ran into him once in that time. But he looks good he's a you know specifically new york character and uh and you know he had a profound effect on my life and i

was thrilled to talk to him so so this is me and dan vitale No, I'll tell you the truth. I was thinking when I was walking through, like the last time I stayed in any kind of decent hotels, it's like I'm in my 50s, so it's really like my late 20s. Maybe I caught a couple in my early 30s. I was getting like the last of like the good television work that was coming my way. I was getting like the last of like the good television work that was coming my way.

And sad to say, my only reference is that I would come in looking kind of like crazed. Yeah. And, you know, because it's like what I would do is I knew that I was like, say, I was a featured player on SNL. So I knew I was getting like 1,800 a week. Yeah. So I'd go up to Broadway Video and I'd wait for like Lorne's secretary, and I would come up with some story about a sick relative, and Con Ed's closing me off.

And so I'd get an advance of like a couple of thousand. Yeah. And I'd go like, well, I can't really be around people I know, because I knew it was to come, you know? So I would check in. I'd go, okay, let me just get a nice hotel room. I'll do my ugly business, whatever that's going to be. Yeah.

And, you know, you'd always walk in. They always had like that. I'm sure they have one here, you know, like that security place where you could go like I'd like to leave some valuables. So no matter how much I got, like say I got five grand, I would take like two grand in the pocket and put three grand in the box downstairs. Yeah, that nobody touches that. And then I'd, you know, call up some, you know, like, you know, degenerate Coke dealer or pick up some denizen of the street.

And then like within like, you know, 20 hours, I'd be down there like sweating with like some concierge trying to talk me out of going to the. So it's like I never really got that experience of sitting there. Having some coffee? Yeah, having like the nice room service. Yeah. So I moved to New York. I guess it was 89. I was living on the Lower East Side.

And Silver passed me at the original improv. Yes, original. Yeah, 44th Street, which at that point in 89 was like a decaying... It had seen its day. Well, I'll tell you. Okay, go ahead. So I come in and

I think Kevin Brendan was working the door. I don't think Attell was working the door. No, Attell was working the door. I don't know if he was when I got here. I think he would have done that thing. Maybe Stu Kamens might have been working... I think he was just getting off the I got here. I think he would have done that thing. Maybe Stu Kamens. I think he was just getting off the door. Right. And you were around, and Brett Butler was living here at that time,

and you were this guy that, to me, I didn't know who you were. But at that time, it's like, that's Dan Vitale. And you were up there sweating, and you were working some shit through. And all I know is that they were like, oh, yeah, he snl and then uh and then it just all went bad he wow you know it's true which is true by the way but i mean yeah you know i walk in and you're doing this great comedy i i still quote fucking jokes of yours and i give you credit for the the the sort of when you hit bottom you'd be at how much give that floor has. It had a profound effect on me. But I don't think I ever really got the backstory.

There was a time, 89 to 91, 92, I was here. Hicks was here for about six months. But I met you before that. And you were volatile. You were in and out of sobriety, but you just never knew when you were going to lose your shit. And then you get to the improv. It's like, oh, yeah, fucking Dan last night.

I don't know. But what was it? I went from like, in other words, it was no longer just about the comedy at that point. I'd become sort of almost like a spectacle of some sort. I didn't see it necessarily, but you heard about it. It's like when Dan got there, you're like, all right, we'll see what happens i could give you the chronology right if you need that yeah okay so uh you know what man i i wanted to be a comedian like you know i grew up you know queens long island and then like in the late 70s i just went like you know what man i'm gonna go to new york

city and i'm gonna do something be an actor be a comedian, be a hipster poet. I don't know, something. So I came in. You grew up in Queens? I was born in Queens. I mostly grew up in Long Island, man. Italian family? Italian-Irish. Yeah.

Yeah, crazy family, man. Yeah. Yeah, my mother was, you know, like all the things that we know about, like my mother was like a blackout drunk. Yeah. You know, running like pharmaceuticals with the seagrams long before it became hip right you know like now it's almost hip yeah to be in you know like you know oh he just got out of rehab right got some demons yeah yeah my old my old lady had those demons on like you know like you know middle class long island you know

which but i mean i'm not trying to make it funny it actually ended very bad it ended very poorly yeah that it really took her down and it busted up my family but even then you know i'll tell you the truth man uh even though there was like a real like like a real darkness around the family there was also a lot of like dark laughter sure and i got a feeling that's that's where i kind of got the beginning of my vision. It was like my family isn't like all the other families on Pin O'Brien, man. Right. What was your dad doing? He was a very interesting guy.

He'd had some issues himself in the, I would say in the, I don't really know the specifics, but I'm sure that illegality, there was some like pending charges or something. You know, like where it was like when I was like seven, not quite eight, I just remember like a cardboard box being thrown into my room. You know, I'm laying there with like a little, you know, one of them jackets with like the Yankee pennants on it. It was like, put your stuff in the box. We're moving.

It was like the next thing I know, man, we were like in Florida. My parents were managing a motel. But it was like it was weird, man. By the way, I remember I was just telling somebody, it's funny that I was talking to somebody the other night. It's the first time I remember this in a lot of years. My family decided that since everything was blowing up in New York City, the solution to the problem somehow was going to Florida.

So we all went down to Florida and it all like it just it didn't happen. And the next thing I know, I was being flown back to live with my aunt or something. And then I remember like a couple of years went by and they went, let's try that again. And like the same thing. Oh, but I'll tell you something really interesting. And it's actually this week. Yeah. The day that I flew back. This like the same thing. Oh, but I'll tell you something really interesting. And it's actually this week. Yeah.

The day that I flew back. This is the only thing I truly remember. I will never forget this. The day we flew out of Miami back to New York City. It was February. It had to be February 9th, 1964, because there I was getting at the airport. And there was bedlam. And there was insanity. I landed at, it wasn't called JFK then.

What was it? Was it Isle Wild then? I don't know. I landed at the airport the same day the Beatles landed, man, and they were doing the Sullivan Show that night. Right. So I was sitting in my Uncle Rocky's that night watching the Beatles, but I was in the airport that day.

I mean, it was pretty amazing, historic little. I always kind of like brushed and rubbed elbows with history. Never quite got to it. I never really quite got to be the. You were in the corner of the picture. Yeah. Who's that kid? Yeah.

There's that kid again. That little fat kid. I think Lennon said he had a vibe on me. That little fat kid. You know, I think Lennon said he had a vibe on me. That little fat kid. I think he's going to grow up and abuse drugs like myself. All right, so your mom was out of control and your dad was dubious. Yeah, I was a great guy. And, I mean, he held the family together.

I'm just saying, like, he, you know, this wasn't, you know, father knows best. Yeah, I get it. Yeah, but I mean, you know, actually. You got brothers and sisters? Yeah, they're gone. Yeah. Dead? Yeah, dead.

Yeah, I'm the survivor. You know, I tell you the truth, though, man. I used to, like, kind of hold that as, like, I'm the survivor. It's true. Everybody died in my family. Like, actually, even, like, obviously, my brother and sister died. I don't really want to dwell on the tragedy aspect. I will if you want me to.

Was it all the same shit? Yeah, it was pretty dark stuff. No, actually, I mean, well, I'll tell you in a nutshell, man. Like, my mother stayed in Florida. Yeah. And so like when I was 12, it was like Christmas. My sister was going to go visit her and she got killed by a drunk driver at the airport going down to visit her. You know what, man?

Like that was like sort of for all intents and purposes, like the end of like childhood. Yeah. You know, it's like at that point, I started seeing the world in a much, even like at 13 or 14, like I started being drawn into like, you know, I just saw the world in a darker way. I lost all my, if I in fact had any childhood idolism.

Innocence. Yeah, innocence. And it's like, lost all my right if i in fact had any childhood idolism or innocence or yeah innocence yeah and it's like um you know i've often thought about that like because it's like it wasn't until like like years ago like i kind of like locked that down all that stuff yeah yeah in my childhood i kind of like just like closed the door on it and went like, okay, you know what? That closet will never be open. Actually, I'm going to close the closet, but I'm going to let what's in there dictate my life. I will tell you a funny story. My father had a little coffee shop for a while. It was an alleged business, and there was actually a Long Island Railroad,

sort of like a couple hours in the morning where they sold a lot of coffee. Yeah. Some breakfast. But the rest of the day was very suspect guys hanging out with my father using the pay phone. You know what I'm saying? Right, right, right. And there was a topless bar across the street.

And so the strippers used to come in and hang out. So I got to know, like, you know, I was like, you know, trying to grab a few bucks out of the till. This is like from my teens, like through high school. So I didn't really like have a job work. I would just like, I'd show up and maybe like help out for like an hour in the morning. Then I'd go to school. And then like, if I wasn't too stonedoned i'd come back and like mop the floor but there was no like you know salaries this was just like my father said to me kid there's the till you need some you grab it

you know i mean that was like it was he was famous he had a very laid-back philosophy not on the books my old man would like he'd hang his pants like over the chair and then he'd go sit. He'd stare at this like black and white TV. He'd just be watching TV. He'd just be chain smoking. And he would drink coffee all, I don't know how it didn't affect him. He could possibly sleep. I mean, there's guys on crystal meth that aren't as amped up.

And then he would just go like, hey, kid, you know what? We don't have that kind of thing. You got to come to me. Just if you need something, that's it. There's no bank accounts. There's no nothing. It's there. No, it's in the pants.

In other words, just go in the pants. If it ain't there, there's no looking. That's the extent to the savings. So that was it. There was no CDs, no certificates of deposit or anything. Anyway, I get it in my head that I'm going to be. You know what? You got to understand something.

I'm not that much older than you, but a little bit. I'm 50. All right. I got you by about seven years. Yeah. So you remember when Freddie. Do you remember like when freddie do you remember freddie prince hitting it on the tonight show kind of that's the thing man that was like a big deal for like a lot of people i think my age was that suddenly this 19 year old

kid went out on the tonight show and instantly became an overnight yeah sensation yeah and so like i had it in my head i'm gonna go to the improv i'm gonna be a comedian and i'm gonna he was still in new york then freddy yeah i didn't know him i mean i was just a teenager he started here yeah i think he grew up here started at the improv right how old oh god i was like a teenager like 16 17 17 and you made the decision you were like yeah because i was always a funny kid man it was like something I always wanted to do but I think up until then

my notion my definition of a comedian was more like and which still isn't a bad definition it was like Don Rickles Rodney no they're great

yeah or the guys from The Tonight Show and The Insolvent Show because we're like minded in that it's like in my heart you know and I was just talking to some other guy about this those were the guys that that that put it in me do you know like i mean those in in in whatever i wanted to do or whatever

you know pursuit of truth i had or whoever my heroes were later in life they were usually heroes because like oh they're on the edge man they're pushing the envelope but you know you go back to those guys even rodney who was underappreciated, they're the fucking best. Yeah, and actually, if you look back now, you realize that, like, yeah, they weren't wearing the hipster clothing. Right. And they weren't, like, you know, there was nothing. But, like, if you really look at it, man, it was the pure soul. Yeah, they were out of control, man.

The pure soul of a comedian. They were having a great time. Oh, yeah. I had a friend of mine who told me that Rodney, apparently at one point somebody of mine was out there he was writing films and stuff he told me that charlie sheen had an apartment and rodney had the apartment upstairs yeah and that they'd be having parties and then like rodney would come down i'd be like he had to be like 80 in his 80s oh yeah he was like well that's what he hit when he was, like, 70, you know, because of the movies. Didn't you tell me?

I think it was you. For some reason, I remember, like, the things that you were, like, at the comedy store. Yeah. And all of a sudden, like, you were just kind of new. Yeah. You were hanging out. All of a sudden, a cab pulled up. Yeah.

And Rodney stuck his head out and went, where's Sam? Yeah. He was, like, in his 70s. Oh, yeah. He used to get out. You know, he'd have his own drink. He'd be in a bathrobe. There's yeah. He used to get out. He'd have his own drink. He'd be in a bathrobe. There's a great story that – who was it?

Oh, Carla Bo told me. You'll love it. Because Sam confided in Rodney, and Rodney, they were kindred spirits. So there was a lot of – after Rodney put him on the special and put him in back to school, Sam really looked at him as a as a mentor and as a guy who who gave him his break but apparently like one time you know sam been up three days he was fucked up he was at the house and you know he's you know he's at the end of a three-day run and rodney walked into the house and said oh look at little nero that's pretty good. Look at little Nero.

I just remember Rodney used to come into the improv, and he'd pull up in like a limo, or like a driver. Yeah. And then this is like in the early 90s. Yeah. He would come in, and he was wearing like, and it hadn't been, it was like, you know, guys would wear those little like waist bags. Yeah. And then he'd go you go well where's the

men's room kid go in there he'd go up on stage and i'd be like i think he's wired man like the guy was like 65 or 70 and he got up there and what i remember was like you know like i like even though i had like some you know i made some moves in my life i you know i've been around some bit yeah but like i've always been a little bit in awe of celebrity. I always have been. So I'd be like, the manager would go like, listen, just ask Rodney what he wants you to say, and then just bring him right up.

So I'd be like, Rodney, just tell him I'm a friend of the club. He wants to go up and say. So I was like, oh, this is going to be great. I'm emceeing. I'm going to of the club. He wants to go up and say. So I was like, oh, this is going to be great. I'm emceeing. I'm going to watch Rodney. And he would go up. And the handful of times that I saw him at the improv, it was like a completely different Rodney.

Remember Rodney with that great character, that wonderful. Twitchy. Twitchy and sort of like self-effacing. And then those brilliant one-liners. And he would go up and he would grab the mic and he started like working the crowd he'd be like yeah look at this guy over here this bald fuck

and I was like he was like suddenly working like Rickles like an insult comic and I guess it was just like I don't know if he was high but like I guess he just needed to get his thing done like in other words like hey I don't want to be so perfect you know i have to get these but i just remember watching it he go but yeah look at this

one over here yeah where'd you meet this putan yeah and then like you go all right thanks a lot yeah and of course the people were just like ah they couldn't believe that for the price they were paying they saw rodney yeah they were thrilled i remember like what was the point like in other words like you're working on that right but but you know and now as a as an older guy you know that you know he just needed to get up there well who the hell knows yeah i mean maybe there was 12 people in the room what's he gonna do i yeah i mean yeah i hear you oh actually i mean listen i've never i've never like i've never, like, I've done some, you know, I've had moments where I was like, you know, I could work some mainstream comedy, but I've never gotten past the point.

My favorite thing on planet Earth is to work in front of, like, 12 people that are scattered around, and half of them don't really want to be there. And then, like, if you could somehow lure them in, you know, man? It's a victory. Yeah. It's better than, like, killing with a full room. Well, them in yeah you know man it's a victory yeah it's better than like killing with a full room well i take you know what man you used to open your set with like you know i got a feeling we're not gonna yeah you know what's funny i heard you say that uh that's how we actually got in touch because a buddy of mine yeah called me up he goes hey listen man it was bizarre i was up at like six in the morning and i was at my buddies and i

guess he had a link to jim norton and so then Norton was on your podcast. So he went and he goes, he's playing me your podcast. And I got like a cell phone from like, you know. Right. And I'm listening. So I call him up. He goes, they were talking about you on Mac. So I guess you and Dom were talking about me at the South by Southwest.

Oh, okay. Yeah. So I listened. I was like, oh, that at the South by Southwest. Oh, okay. Yeah. So I listened. I was like, oh, that's pretty cool, man. These guys remember. So then the next day, I moved. I moved from a building. I moved into another better building across the street.

So I was moving, and I knew I had to throw a bunch of stuff out. So I keep stuff in boxes. Yeah. So I was going through boxes. This is all, like, comedy material and stuff and phone numbers I'm never going to use. And I found this little scrap of paper, and it said, Mark Maron, 917 number. And I went, and my friend was sitting there right with me,

and I went, what are the chances this guy would still have this number? I haven't seen him. She went, well, take a shot. And I immediately hit it, and you just answered like as if we'd been talking. Yeah, yeah. I was like, Mark. So, yeah, but I do remember you said that on the podcast. You went, yeah, he would go up and start by going, I don't think we're going to get a lot.

I guess I did that sometimes. But I think, you know what? I actually thought that you might have had me confused with like Larry David. No, no. Because he would actually. You would get up. No, no. I remember it.

You would do maybe one joke and it would be like, I didn't see that much. Because he would actually, you would get up to, no, no, I remember it. You would do maybe one joke, and it would be like, all right. Yeah. Wow. Yeah, I did have a very low threshold for, like, in other words, like, I guess if you're a really professional comedian of any, or seasoned on any level, you would assume that a guy who'd been doing it, like, for off and on 10, 15 years would know that,

especially given, like like the lateness of the spot right and the randomness of the audience that maybe the first line isn't gonna kill you know and like i would go off but you know what i was so like i was kind of crazy in those days because it was like i i guess i could perform so i wasn wasn't at my worst in terms of using and stuff. But I clearly wasn't completely sane. But I think what we share is that for some reason, when you get up there, in that moment, a lot hinges on it. You don't feel like you're entertaining.

You're sort of like, this is everything that I've been is happening right now, and it's all hinging on your approval for some fucked up reason. I know. And actually, I think we might actually be even more similar in this regard. For some reason, like over the years, maybe it's like my Italian-ness or something. I used to slick back my hair and go smoke. or something, and I used to slick back my hair and go smoke. For some reason, a lot of people were under the impression that I was like some cool guy who'd seen a lot,

like who'd seen a lot of life, like, oh, this guy, he's been to the other side. Right. And in some ways that's true. Right. But I don't think that I ever took the stage as a comedian, ever, that I didn't approach as my hand first held the microphone and looked at it, that I wasn't like some scared little prom girl who just went, I so need your love. Oh, please. Yeah.

I was Judy Garland, man. The weird thing is that that's what we're feeling, but there's nothing but rage in our eyes. No, and the weird thing is at least you have the cool kind of like, you've always had a cooler look because you've got the glasses.

It's all bullshit. Me, man, from the 80s to the 90s, I put on 100 pounds. So I went from looking sort of like De Niro in Mean Streets to like Tony Salerno. So like it even seemed crazier that this big Italian fucking aggressive guy. Would be so sensitive. People didn't really know. Like the last thing they were thinking was like, he really needs us to support him.

And that's all, man. Like, the last thing they were thinking was, like, he really needs us to support him. You know what I'm saying? And that's all, man. You know, see, the thing about me is that, like, comedy and, like, my life, and it's why it's always so hard, like, when I stop doing it, it's always so hard for me to go back because, like, comedy was never just, like, some art form or business thing. Like, hey, you're pretty good at this. You might be able to make it for that. It was always, like, the thing that defined me, like, where I was working out my thing. Like, hey, you're pretty good at this. You might be able to make it for that.

It was always like the thing that defined me, like where I was working out my thing. Yeah, me too. Like, you know, it's like it was life or death in some weird way. So it's like a war that like... Yeah. You remember that movie, Black Hawk Down? Yeah.

I always remember this, man. You saw it? Yeah. You remember at the end when they finally get through the thing and the guy's a shooter? God, he shot him in the neck and they finally get back to the compound and they're back and they're bleeding.

And one guy goes over and he starts grabbing ammo, putting stuff. I think it's Josh Hartnett, if I remember the actor. And he goes, what are you doing? He goes, we're going back. There's still a couple of vans there. He goes, we're going back. I'm not going back. What are you, crazy?

And the guy just looks at him and goes, yeah, well, you could go back or not, but you'll live with it the rest of your life. And then I'm not even sure if he goes back. And I hope he didn't, actually. But for me, man, comedy's always been on some level like a war with myself. I was never a war with the audience myself i was never a war with the audience there's never a war with the club guys that was just an excuse you know right but and that's what they're watching though i'm the same way and that must be why i'm so compelled towards

you is that you know they're not they're watching a guy like i don't know who's gonna win here with you with with you like who's gonna win that war that's going on on stage with that one guy yeah right this is so interesting that you asked me this because i was thinking about this yeah um it's like the thing is that the best comedy that i ever did see like i got known like you remember some of my bits yeah i remember like dom was reminding you of a bit like there's bits that people remember of mine like i could write but my best stuff was when i was working and i just and this developed over years it didn't just happen it just and in fact it developed to the point where when i stopped performing in like mainstream clubs yeah like i'd be doing like the later days of rocky sullivans with credico yeah

where it would just be me him and like john marshall and there were like a dozen people who listen to bai yeah yeah but they would show up every week right and then like a handful of stragglers yeah but this was like the end days yeah like like all the guys would you know like real names that were happening were gone yeah and so r, I had gone to like my last rehab in like 2005. And when I came out, Randy was still going. So I was like, I had nothing going. So I started going with Rocky Sullivan's on a Tuesday night. And Randy would be like, hey, like Whitney Brown or Barry Crimmins might show up once in a blue moon.

Right. But mostly it was me and Randy. And he'd go, just go up and do your thing, man. Go ahead. So I hadn't performed for a couple years, and I was, again, trying to reclaim my sobriety. So, of course, there was that first night where I'm doing a set list, like transvestite, Italian guys.

As if I needed to remember that. And then suddenly I'd start talking about where I'd been the last couple of years. And then suddenly I'd start talking about like where I'd been the last couple of years. And then suddenly I'd see like, oh, everybody got their attention because it's real. And then week after week and finally got to the point where I was doing like 45 minutes to an hour. And I'm telling you, Mark, maybe five minutes with stuff I thought about. Yeah. The rest was all off the top of my head.

But this had been developing over years where I knew. And it's kind of like a trick. It's like a magic trick that you really can't sell to any casino. Here's the thing. I don't know how I'm going to do this. But if you let me do this, it might happen. There's a chance it doesn't. It's like, well, what do I do?

Here's the pitch. I'm very inconsistent. There's a chance it doesn't. What do I do? Here's the pitch. I'm very inconsistent. It's really hit or miss. I can't guarantee you nothing, but if I hit, it's going to be great for me. I don't know. Where are you going with that? Who are you selling that to? What agent is going, Dan, sit down.

I've been thinking hard on this. This whole, I don't have an act, I don't know what, I'm going to back you up. Yeah, really? But you know what it is, too, man? But the reason I say this is. But that is a victory in the war that you're talking about. The war with yourself.

Yes. Oh, absolutely, Mark. I got to tell you. But you know what? I know this might sound like the height of hubris for me to be saying this. But you haven't earned that. Yes, I have. I've become, by not caring, I've become a way better comedian

than from the days when I was really trying to like, what time's Marathon? Yeah. 10.50? Ah, fuck. Who's got the next spot? What? Yeah. Okay, I can understand a tell, but I should be on before man for lardy

you know what i'm saying sure like uh what stew cayman says to midnight i'm you know but like i was trying to to find my way in the mainstream of things and it's like yeah it would have been great if it worked out i'd have a great like after a pension now but i don't think we were trying to find our way in that i think we were trying to find ourselves i i think that's some weird thing about me because like i'm in the same way i didn't have like you know a plan i just wanted to be a fucking comedian on my own terms right and and i really didn't even take into mind the fact that like i wasn't even that concerned with entertaining you know right you know what i mean it's just sort of like if this hits if we if

i hit it it's gonna be great for everybody right right let's just see if that happens now i do remember this like when i met you i'd say that's around 90 ish early 90s at the same time hicks had been around but that's the first time that i became friends with him because he was in new york i remember you and i and him went to get Tried to get to Times Square one night. On New Year's. Yeah, that was the closest I ever came to it. Yeah, we got about two blocks. We didn't get into the crowd.

Yeah, I'm glad we didn't. And we ran back to the fucking improv. Right. Didn't we go see Silence of the Lambs or something? I don't know if we did. Maybe you guys did. I don't remember going to the movies with him. But I remember me and Hicks hit it off,

and we had a real mutual respect society. Yeah. But I got to tell you, if I ever saw a guy who was less concerned... See, I got to tell you something. I actually think there is some seed in me of that kid who used to watch the Ed Sullivan show, who wanted to sort of entertain, like be Jack Carter or Jan Murray. He wanted to be a comedian. But I'd watch Hicks sometimes,

and it'd be like, and it's funny looking back, that is like 20, 20 years. He could not get over on New York audiences. I always felt that he was always angry, but they just, in a 15-minute chunk, for a New York audience, I really think immediately they're like,

what is he yelling? I mean, it was amazing to watch. There were two guys, and I guess since I have, it doesn't really matter. But I always felt that he pushed the you're not digging me card way too soon. Yeah. As I'm sure I did. But I think I did it just out of self-collapsing fear. Yeah.

Just like, okay, sweating, insecure, and just like, oh, my God. But I got a feeling like Bill, this isn't a criticism because he was my buddy, and he deserves all the acclaim he's gotten since his death as well. But I always used to watch and go like, you know, I think he's pushing this like you're not digging me card a little too soon. Yeah. And I'm sure that I did that as well. Yeah.

But I think I was doing mine out of more fear. Well, yeah. Fear base. He wanted the distance, I think. I think he liked, you know, having this singular tone and having his own kind of time zone with things. Like he sort of thrived on that. That like his whole tone, the misanthropy of what he was doing was to establish his point of view.

And I don't really believe – I think he was an amazing joke writer and I think he knew that. And I really think he liked having that space to sort of think out loud without worrying about that. Right. I tell you, one of my proudest moments was he came up to me at the bar one night at the improv. And I guess it's kind of hard to believe that there was a time when people were still listening to stuff on cassette tapes.

Yeah. And I guess his new comedy album had come out. Yeah. And he came over to me and he handed it to me and he goes hey man i just want to give you that you really taught me a lot about comedy and i was like like wow that was like truly one of the most genuine like great compliments like hey yeah that's right my man this is like guy who really people really dig you know it really made you know there's like one of those things that you remember that go like wow man that was special yeah yeah he's still like watching

special i remember him sitting in the back of the room and he was the first guy that i ever i think i told brian regan that like brian regan came in and hicks came into the room and he's like i love watching this guy and i had to sit there and like in like because he appreciated comedy yeah hicks did he was one of those guys where you'd see him and he was trying to work things out, man. You know what's great, though? Brian Regan, who I love Brian Regan. As a guy, he was a great guy. Yeah.

But he's a tremendous comedian. Great. And there never really seemed to be working a lot of stuff out. There was a guy who just just had like great material yeah and he did this kind of like he would get into this character this kind of and then he'd he'd accented at times this really like insanely nerdy character yeah and the weirdos and i mean i haven't seen him in years and i could i mean once in a while see him on like letterman but i mean there was a guy see this thing he was almost like a true direct lineage of those guys that we were talking about.

Like the Ed Sullivan guys, the Tonight Show guys, Mike Douglas. Because there was no, like, you never saw Brian and thought, oh, boy, Brian's had a rough day. I wonder if he's going to get over on the crowd tonight. Let me tell you something. No matter how he does tonight, he's on his way to detox. Let me tell you. There was never any of that, man. Guy would come in, and everybody would be happy.

He was like Hickey in Nice Man Cometh. He'd come in, and all the denizens of the bar would be like, hey, Brian's here. They'd go in, and it was like 20 minutes of joy watching a really funny comedian. You'd laugh you're and then he would go into the night there was no like hey can you get me something or no none of that like i had to cut him off it was so refreshing yeah well i think we romanticized that shit i mean oh way too much man but let's go but just out of curiosity though though, so, like, what was the beginning? When did you first come in and start doing comedy?

How old were you? Well, I moved to the city. I guess I was, like, I want to say I was 19. I might have been, like, just turned 20. I went to college for, like, a year. I was, like, a year late getting out of high school yeah because i'd cut classes for like the better part of three years so it took me like a year to like find then they had like what they called a free school yeah it was like from the billy jack thing where it was like these hippie

teachers in the early 70s who you'd sit around on like foam talking about your feelings and i saw that and i went oh there's my ticket out because like so i went and i went to like a community college and i saw community college uh i was gonna be like an actor and all that but i was always like funny and i kind of knew that that's the thing i wanted to do so i guess i was like about maybe i just turned 20 and i just was like you know my father's coffee shop was now, there weren't really that many. It was just those guys hanging out. And like, yeah, those strippers from the coach car in across the road there.

So I remember one day I just made up my mind. Like, I met a guy. He was like some old doctor. And he knew somebody in the village who would rent me a room for like, I mean, it's like late. This is in the 70s. It was like 30, $35 a week. Wow. For like a furnished room.

Yeah. So I was like, hey, you know what? I'm doing this. Yeah. So one day, I always remember this. There was these strippers. I forget, their name was Chrissy or something. And, you know, like when you're like 19 or 20 and you're still like, you know,

maybe like you've got some baby fat and a couple of people and some stripper, jaded it's like you you know like oh my god so i was like trying to impress her i told her like you know i'm moving to the city i'm i'm gonna go after my you know be an actor and she got so nervous she butted out her cigarette and started screaming to my father nick you better talk to this kid he's out of his mind he thinks he's getting on that train and he's gonna go into the city and be an actor and i was like why is this scaring you so you know i mean like i realized like she probably had like some dreams that she could never so i tell you man i had like some beat up it's almost like i you know like a lou reed song standing on a corner suitcase i mean i hit the city i had the

room i was working in some like bad jobs and you know man i just i went out and i just like did open mics and i sucked where like the in the village at the well this is like 70s so like the places that even if i could remember their names they've long uh oh i mean i would go to the improv you could audition once a month mean, I would go to the improv. You could audition once a month. Yeah. Or you can go to the comic strip and audition once a month. Or catch, you could go once a week.

Yeah. And I would go. And in the early days, I wasn't even modeling myself after, say, Rodney. Yeah. Do you remember? I'm sure you probably don't even remember this comedian, Jackie Vernon. Yeah, I love Jackie Vernon. He had that real deadpan.

He would do those one. With the slideshow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I loved him. Yeah, I love Jackie Vernon. He had that real deadpan. He would do those one. With the slideshow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I loved him. Brilliant. I loved him. But the thing is, that was a subtle kind of thing that a guy spends years developing. And I was like a 20-year-old kid who thought I was going to be like the next Jackie Vernon.

I was writing all these one-liners. It's weird because he was the first guy that really resonated to me. It's weird that you have that. Did you really? Yeah, I went and saw him with my parents when he came to Albuquerque, New Mexico when I was like 11 or 12 years old because I was such a huge fan and he was doing these lounges.

He did the Hilton Inn, the lounge at the Hilton Inn and I was like, I begged my parents to take me and they took me and I sat right up front and watched Jackie Vernon and it changed my life, you know. Really? Yeah. Oh, okay. So then, yeah. I know. But I was up there, man. I was trying to do these, like, one-liners.

And it was just, it really wasn't anything. But I started meeting some guys. Like, do you remember a guy? I don't know if you know him. His name was Terry Day. Like, I was, like, 20. I was sitting on line outside of catch. Every Monday, you'd sit on line.

And Terry Day was, like, about 40, 40-something. And he'd come in from San Francisco and he was like kind of older and hipper and he'd like watch me and he'd go like, you know, you got something. It's not there yet, but like I think you're, and you know what? I just really couldn't put it together, man.

And then I'd work like, there was a buddy of mine, this guy Tom Saunders. I think he wound up writing for Arrested Development. But we were like a comedy team. Yeah. And we were doing like sketches and all. And so we were at the comic strip. And then I got into some plays.

I was doing some acting. And so then that was going to be the thing. I was going to be like Marlon Brando. Right. And then finally I started hanging out in the village. Like, just there was a they're not there anymore. The Bitter End is still there. But next to the Bitter End was a place called the Dugout.

Yeah. And it was just this, like, funky beat up joint. And there was this woman named Rosie. And she was like a real big, heavy broad. And she was like a real village character, and she would run this Monday night show, and all these lunatics would go up, and my buddy Neil was the bartender there,

and he goes, hey, I'll talk to Rosie. I'll put you up, and it was the first place. It was like it was sawdust on the floor and some drunken NYU kids, but I go up, and it was like the first place, like say around 81, 82 82 that i started feeling like i started developing a voice where like yeah i gotta have to go up with some jokes but then what became funnier was the the space between the jokes yeah the being on stage yeah and uh around that

time guy comes in one night and he goes danny, I want you to meet my friend Rockets. Do you remember Rockets Red Glare? Yeah. So Rockets was watching me and he wanted to be a comedian. Yeah. So he's like, hey, man, maybe you could do some of these things with me in the East Village. So I had this sort of little run in the East Village. Actually, you know who was hanging out?

Remember Steve Buscemi? Yeah. Steve Buscemi? Sure. Was like a buddy with Rockets. Yeah. Oh, and then the big thing that really probably helped me go from being this non-entity to being any sort of entity was that Dave Heenan was quite a character.

I remember him. You remember Heenan? Yeah. So he came up to me. I knew Dave from the Village. Yeah. And he goes, Danny, I'm going to federal prison. I need you to watch my gig.

So he gave me, I took over the Tuesday night at the Bitter End. And it was just like, it was like the beginning of like my life, you know, because like it was like they'd let me drink. I could drink. drink i could drink and because i was the emc and there was no real like you know i could go up there and it's like do as much time as i wanted to and so sometimes they would like uh like the person booking the joint would ask me like can you put dennis blair on okay i mean like yeah okay put dennis blair but most of the time it would be like you know it was just like guys trying to get on and be like yeah come on down man was just like guys trying to get on. And it would be like, yeah, come on down, man, but I'll put you.

And I actually had like a little following. And so all of a sudden, I'd be like on, you know, it was a great stage too, man, because I had like room to move. And I was still kind of skinny. I was like skinny in those days. I was like kind of handsome. So like, you know, and it was like that first beautiful moment, that sweet spot, where booze is working for you.

It's not working against you. The coke was coming around. But you couldn't really afford to get too crazy anyway. And you just had this freedom because you didn't care. And I did that for about, I'd'd say a year, like every Tuesday. And I probably did like a couple of hours every Tuesday. And then I'd go do these other little, and guys would come up to me and go like, you know, man, you're really good.

You should be like at the improv. Like you're better than a lot of guys at catching the improv. I was like, yeah, man, I should be at the improv. So I walk by the improv and I look in through the window and i see dom who i knew yeah from knocking around yeah so i walk in i see a rarer and he's talking to some like really skinny guy with like pale like almost like white skin who looks like he's gonna die so hey dom hey man i saw you in the window how you doing he's like yeah daniel goes up here you know david it was freaking david bowie he was talking to bowie and it was like this is like around 82 so i was like oh this is like the place this you know i've got steve

forbert hanging out at the bit of red this is like bowie so uh you know I auditioned and I'd really become a good comedian. You know, whatever. Oh, no, yeah, yeah. In my 20s, you know. And Silver would not pass me. The weird thing is that all the guys. Silver Friedman. Silver Friedman, who ran the club.

She just, she wouldn't pass me. And I would go in. And what's weird was that all the guys who were already at the improv knew me. Because they would come down to the other clubs that I was doing, like Sweeps and the Bitter End, try and get spots that paid on the weekends. So they'd be like, when they'd bring me up on the audition night, they didn't bring me up, they'd be like, oh, this guy is one of my favorite comedians. And I'd go up, and I mean, I'm telling you, Mark, I would chill.

I would, like, hammer. I would bang the room. And the woman would not pass me. And then like one night after just like, I mean, like annihilating the room, like what? She just like sort of in a way that you're like, well, everyone else seems to think you're pretty funny. So she passed me. And to her credit, it's like, I't want to paint that bad a picture of her. Because she did jump me right in. Usually if you passed in those days.

Yeah, you got to start late night. In the 80s, yeah, it was late night and you're hanging around. She let me jump to the head of the line in a hurry. I almost immediately started emceeing weekend shows and getting, like, good, like, you know, those 11, 10, 50 spots. Yeah. So I got going real quick, and it was just a matter of months,

and then one night, this woman, Sherry Fortis, came in, and she was looking at people for Lorne Michaels. It was called The New Show. Right. It was the show he was, the first show he was doing after he left SNL in 1980. So this was like around 83. Yeah.

So she came in. She caught me on a great night and called me into audition for Lorne. And talk about, you know, like when you say this isn't working. I remember going in. Like everybody was there. It was like right around here. It was like 54th Street. There was some big studio.

So when I got to the audition, man, it was like in the afternoon. And I'm like a night creature. So I'm like, I'm there to audition for Lorne Michaels. And so there was everybody that you ever, but not just comedians. It was like Uncle Floyd was there. It was like guys you saw on cable, late night cable TV.

Uncle Floyd, I think, is Jimmy Vivino's brother. Is that right? That sounds like it could be right. The guitar player for Conan. I think he still performs in New Jersey. He still has the show, right? Is that Floyd Vivino, Jimmy Vivino? Yeah, that sounds right.

I just learned that like two weeks ago over there. Yeah, I guess I always, it was like one of those things you kind of knew. Yeah, Floyd Vivino, Jimmy Vivino. Yeah, that sounds right. I just learned that like two weeks ago over there. Yeah, I guess I always... It was like one of those things you kind of knew. Yeah, I did. Like, you know, Justin Timberlake and Ryan Gosling were roommates when they were in the Disney... Yeah, yeah, yeah. Where there were Musketeers.

Yeah, that's crazy, right? Yeah. So they were all there. And I remember thinking like, hey, I'm getting a little nervous. You know, this is like a big deal. Because like Lorne Michaels. Yeah. So I go downstairs and there was a bar there.

And I figured I'll just have like that one shot. And I did. I just had like a stiff shot of Jack Daniels. And then I went back up. And I remember like Alan Havey, who wound up getting the show. He was there and he had a bit about like soap on a rope. Yeah. And he had the soap around his neck.

And I was like, like yeah i'm not doing any props for this i'm just gonna go in it's like so again this is like the first time that being like the guy who thinks he's gonna work the moment yeah so i go into this room and it wasn't just lauren michaels it was literally like all these people that you kind of like revered from like not only snl but like sctv like dave thomas yeah and i think candy might have been there and uh pretty sure penny marshall was there and there's just all these people buck henry yeah it's like all these guys that like you'd grown up in the audience just like sitting yeah at this like sort of big desk with lawn yeah so i got up and uh somebody said oh this is dan vitale blah blah and i said hey it's great yeah guys you know i was coming down and i

started to try and get that rhythm yeah going and then i was because because my material never was just like oh here's the material you had to work in organically yeah hey man you know i woke up today and it's like yeah so i'm gonna audition for and i started doing the thing and they were not reacting at all they were just staring blankly and it only took like a minute or two and i just went hey you know what i got a better idea why don't all you fucking people go fuck yourselves man i grabbed my jacket i went yeah shove it are you gonna sit there fucking stare at me go fuck you man and i walked out and i was like punching the elevator and sherry fortis came out and she went dad you're just she had seen me at the improv killer he was like oh he's my new find yeah and she went what what what happened i i went i i don't know she goes dan um warren

had told everybody to not react because they would burn themselves out laughing trying to laugh at everybody and it would come off disingenuous so that's why they weren't but they were listening to you and i went i'm so i went home and i was just like my first big audition i so like i don't know it might have been like Pat Pat Buckles was like managing and uh I don't know whatever it was I got some I got somebody to call Sherry and explain that Dan was yeah so they actually let me come back and audition again and for some reason the second time like I just kind of like i did a spin on what i had done right and what a jerk i'd been and now i was like really kissing up to them yeah and it was another

one of those like sort of improbables but this time it worked right and i just saw lauren like lauren kind of like nodding like okay now i get you yeah and uh he actually uh i mean i wound up doing the new show and i did a pilot for my own sitcom with joe montana yeah big shots in america and then i got hired for his first season back but he was actually sort of like my mentor for like i'd say like two two and a half years where like i would be up in his office like almost every week he'd have me up to his apartment he was taking me out. He got me some development money from NBC to not go work anywhere. So it was, like, the first, like, real time of my life. What did you learn from him, though, when you sat and talked to him?

I mean, what was the impression? You know, one thing that jumps out at me that it's funny, coming from this conversation that I always remember was, like, because, you know, like, the other night, me and you were talking on the phone real quick and i just went like mark i'd love to do the podcast but the sooner the better yes i fold under pressure right like if i have another day to think of it i may think of a reason that i can't do so lauren would say to me like sometimes when like i would like he'd go you know he'd see me he'd come to the improv all the time and he'd bring in people and come in like a lot and he said you know man he goes really great comedians

got to stand up there and take the bullets and I don't think you're ready you know I mean like you don't you're not there yet you don't just take the bullets you like fold under the bullet you know what I mean like you know like in a great cop movie the guy's like shooting it out yeah like i'm the guy who she got shot at stumbling the gun yes like you know barney fife or something you know like with the yeah yeah so uh like looking back that was really uh it's something that i always remembered because i got you know like even like at rocky sullivan's i get up there and i go like i know i'm gonna do like close to an hour and i know i'm gonna wind up having fun but these first 10 minutes are going to be dreadfully painful yeah i just got to get

through i have to like you know what i mean and that's something i couldn't do when i was younger but um what did i learn from him you know looking back looking back, he was a great guy, and he really – I've thought about him a lot over the years. It's like, you know, there was the first guy who really made me feel special. Like, you know what I mean? Like, really said, like, you know, you got something special. And he really tried to give me opportunities. In terms of mentoring, no, he didn't,, no, he didn't have anything to offer.

Right. Like, you would think that he might have been a guy who'd seen all these guys come. You got to understand, this was the 80s. I'm sure that, like, some of the people that he had to deal with hadn't come later. Like, you know, the Chris Farley guys like that. So, I don't know. He made me, you know, just, it was like that feeling of special, like feeling like you have a unique talent.

You deserve to be doing this. It's kind of like, I tell you, man, I've made peace with it. I made peace with it a long time ago. But I can't help but think sometimes. I mean, Mark, I'm not saying this out of, like, you know. I was like, I didn't get, I got into the candy store. I didn't get up the ladder to that like nice jar with all the, but man, I got into the store. I have a friend of mine who uses that metaphor.

He goes, nah, you really got like more like to the window. You were like close, but you're looking in. But like, I kind of felt like I got into the store and I I just didn't have it to get up that ladder to the thing. But I think I feel like I got into a door that a lot of guys never get in that door, so I should be very grateful. Right. And I've often thought this, and I don't know. What exactly happened?

So you did the pilot, you did the show, and then you're signed up to be a featured player on SNL. Okay. When did the fucking wheels come off? You know what's sad? The wheels came off almost immediately. No one saw. Like, I guess the wheels came off.

I must have had the donut on. Because I managed to, when you're really looking back at where I was at, the fact that I got a couple-year run, Lorne was doing that show, the new show. Yeah. And so I guess me and Havy were the guys who nobody ever knew of. And then he had all these guys like Candy and Dave Thomas, Buck Henry.

So they would work us into sketches. And then, like, but for some reason, Lorne, like, would bring me into the office. And I just remember one day, like, we were making, like, after scale. And this guy came over and said, hey, Dan, I'm Jim, blah, blah, blah. I'm one of the associate producers. Lorne wants to offer you a contract. It's going to be $1,500 a week. And you're like, you know, I was making $15.

So I had had like a little coke problem at that point. Yeah. And, you know, the first thing that happens when you're not making money and you have a little coke problem and then you're making a whole bunch of money at once, you suddenly have a big coke problem, man. And I was like, but it's funny like i've always been like thought like like guys like me and you say for example we're kind of hip like we get the types yeah see the people we go like man i would never be like this you see this showbiz asshole

over here yeah there's a primadonna walking in from his living room. The minute I was making the bread, I was starting to get a little TV time, I became the biggest. I'd walk in like, hey, how are the boys doing tonight? Yeah, going to do your little 20 minutes? Yeah. Am I on? I'd be like, wah, wah. Looking back, what did spots pay?

If you really think about it, like, say it's like the 1980s. I think he made like $10 a night at the improv, which everybody takes the 10. Like, Seinfeld would take the 10. He might tip a waitress or something. But nobody ever turned down the car. So you'd come in, you'd be working on the show come in and be like can i get on yeah all right it's like yeah put dan on he's doing some tv yeah and i'd go in the bathroom and i'm like wow wow i realized i would probably spend like a hundred dollars just to get

on stage just for like a ten dollar set yeah and then like call the comedy seller you know talk to uh you know manny rick chrome rick and he's a oh yeah i'm in a cab so jump in a cab and i'd be like hey look the other way i realized like i'd make 25 a night doing comedy and spend like you know hundreds of dollars running around kind of was fun but um so the uh the new show i remember It was the lowest rated show That year on television In fact Miami Vice took it's time slot So then Lorne called me in the office and said

Listen I'm going to get you some money from NBC It's like development money At the time it was pretty good It really wasn't that much money Like 20, 25 grand So He wound up uh he was going to produce a pilot and it was uh it was called big shots in america and james burroughs

directed it bernie brilstein i mean like all the heavyweights were there this thing looked like it was like yeah gonna be a monster montaigne was in it christ Christine Baranski, whatever, good people. And the thing just didn't work. But I made a lot of money, you know, relative at the time, doing that. But you know what? By the time we did the pilot, man, I'd already started falling apart. It had swung the other way where, like, the booze had, like, taken over. It wasn't just like, okay, he's a little crazy. This is fun.

It's like, nah, this guy is really, like, uncomfortable to be around. And, like, he did sign a contract, and we have to pay him, so we might as well use him. I remember, like, shooting that pilot, man, up at 8-H. We shot the pilot at 8-H. And I remember, like, I just was, like, you know, not doing that. I mean, it was like shooting a pilot in front of a live audience to begin with. I'd been in plays and I'd acted, but, like, this was it.

And, like, Lorne, whatever he nurtured and mentored as a comedic, he wasn't like a people guy. People would say, I've never seen him lose his mind at people, except with you. And he would just be screaming. From behind a camera, there'd be a red light on a camera, and he'd be like, just do the fucking lines. God damn.

And then I remember Joe Montano, I still, to this day, he'd come over and go, hey, man, screw that. Just look in my eyes. We do this. And I do remember, I mean, it was hell. It was really hell. And that guy, Jim Burrows, who's arguably one of the most successful producer, directors in sitcom history. That guy, I'm pretty sure he loathed me from the moment he got stuck with me. What were you doing?

You were just improv-ing or you were just not? No, it was a sitcom. I was like the Fonzie character. I was like the Fonzie guy. So what was the fundamental problem? What were you not getting? Because I was drunk. Let's put it this way i was drunk at night and then coming into rehearsal scared yeah and then as soon as i started getting yelling yelled at i'd go out and

get drunk or so at a certain point all i knew was there was a red light there. Oh, and this is a weird thing, man. I guess because Lorne had never produced a sitcom. Yeah. He had guys with, I remember him arguing with Jim Burrow. I heard that they were arguing because he had guys with cue cards there. And I heard somebody go like, no, nobody does cue cards in a sitcom, man. That's like live tv stuff at all but somehow or another they i'm sure this is one of the few sitcoms that was ever shot where a guy was actually holding a cue card yeah yeah like you would if you were doing

yeah you know what the weird thing is i actually have a copy of it somewhere yeah and uh i remember like years ago my friend chris murphy yeah, I remember Murphy. Is he all right? Yeah, he's good. He had some problems. He pulled through, man. Good. Yeah, he's a good guy. So I just remember going to his apartment.

I said, hey, man, I haven't looked at this. This is like eight years later or something. So we put it in the, I guess it was like a VHS in those days. And I went, well, you're about to watch a man in complete blackout drunk perform a sitcom shot before a live audience at 8-H studio and we watched the thing the credits rolled Joe Mantegna Dan Vitale and he watched the thing and it wasn't great but I tell you the weird thing is you'd almost wouldn't know that I was drunk like I was just I mean Jim Burrows I'm sure if you, you know, if you were interviewing him next and he walked in the door,

he'd probably turn around. If he remembered me. Yeah. Probably wouldn't remember. But, here's the weird thing, man. You would have thought

that that would have brought everything down to a screeching halt. A couple of months, that, Lorne announced he was going back to take SNL over

in 1985. And I went up to the offices and he made me audition with like everybody but it's like the cast that year was like robert downey jr and randy quaid and i showed up like here's the weird thing i think i showed up drunk at one of the auditions and yet he called me to the office and i remember sitting in the office so this is like the fall of 1985 yeah and he went all right tell downy's agent 3 000 a week see if you could do you know yeah robert was like 20 years old yeah he's like all right and then he looked at me and he went dan um in the words of the kennedy brothers talking about lbj i'm hiring you i'd

rather have you inside the tent pissing out than outside the tent pissing in and what did that mean to you i guess it meant like i've spent a couple of years trying to develop stuff with you. Now I've got this thing I'm doing. And if I don't hire you, it would be just my luck for you to be, uh, to hit on some other venue and attack me. Right.

And, uh, so like he still believed in me enough that way. Yeah. But you know, it was really weird, man. It was like almost like,

because, uh, and I wasn't probably doing so much to dissuade everybody, but I showed up, man, and Lovitz had his desk. He was a great guy, Robert Smigel. He was the only guy who would talk to me. He had a little office with this guy, John Schwartzfelder. He wound up being one of the original Simpsons guys. Yeah, yeah.

And Smigel was just like a new guy there. And my desk was almost like I was loitering. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I'd go get drunk. No one was really including me in. So then I'd go in, I'd talk to Smigel. He's a sweet guy, Smigel. And then you know who else was up there who I became pretty good friends with at the time?

I remember, you know, Bruce McCullough? From the kids in the hall? Yeah, and Mark McKinney. Yeah, yeah. For some reason, just those two guys from the kids in the hall were hired as writers, but they were like complete raw rookies. I'd just go like, uh, we'll go hang out with the kids, man. And then like all the film guys like

uh james signorelli had the film unit and i knew that the film guys had like a refrigerator with beer so like if i'd run through my money and i'd go like hang out with the film hey guys what are you shooting yeah that's great yeah you mind well I remember, like, Madonna was hosting the first show. And I guess she had married Sean Penn just not long before that. So these guys really dug me. McCullough and McKinney. They were just getting started. Yeah.

And they wrote a sketch for me with Madonna as this, like, Avone guy who, like, has a date with her. Yeah. And they came to me and they went, you know, man, Lauren just went like, in other words, and, you know, justifiably. So he didn't trust me. Like I wasn't somebody he was pushing. I had, you know what I mean? I hadn't earned any trust.

It was like this guy, we don't know. So I got like some things written for me and they never really got past dress rehearsal, man. And then I just, within like a matter of weeks, it was like, you know, wherever my alcoholism was at, you know, it just all caved in, man. And I went to my very first 19th, fall of 85, late 85, I wound up at Regent Hospital on East 61st Street. And actually, I was getting fired. I remember I went into the office because I'd actually written a film at the time. I'd co-written a film with this buddy of mine. Lorne was actually interested in producing, possibly.

So he got us some money from some producers. Yeah. But he was so convinced at that point that I like becoming more and more trouble and untrustworthy that he got me money just to walk away from it. So, like, I wound up like getting paid just to let the other guy go do the rewrite and whatever would go. Remember Gary Weiss, the guy who shot the films? Yeah. So I remember Weiss would come up to me because I guess he had some issues. He's like, dude, you're like gone, man. You know who's great?

Robert Downey Jr. And I haven't seen him in years. But he was almost like, he was really like a great young guy. And he'd be like, man, you're messed up. Let's go. Because we'd go to a cast party the first week with that Deodeon. And I remember I was getting in a fight with like, you know,wee herman to go fuck himself yeah go fuck you and like they were trying to throw me out of the party yeah i remember downey jumping in the cab with me going hey i'm

sticking with you man you know and then we would go to something like after hours club he was a great guy i didn't who would have ever guessed what was going to become he's just yeah he's just kidding you're nuts, man. You know, I remember, like, when Pee Wee Herman hosted. It was, like, the second show. I just remember how they didn't throw me out of the building. I don't know. But I just remember, like, I guess Phil Hartman was, like, actually, like, sort of like his right-hand guy.

Yeah. Like, they had worked together or something. Right, right. So Hartman wasn't a cast guy. And I just remember being being so drunk like I was on my back in the writers room and like looking up and uh seeing Paul Rubens and this guy Phil Hartman sitting there and I just remember babbling something at that point like I I kind of got to the point where I would just be like getting drunk and guys would just be like walking over me yeah like oh no he does that he

gets drunk he lays that don't worry about it you know and you know like and then like i'd see al frank and it was like the producer and you know like so i was getting the warnings like you know man you're really like out of control here and then finally like uh there was one show where like uh i think i like stayed in my dressing room i didn't show up for a sketch yeah and it was like okay so i was getting fired you gotta understand this is 1985 so it's a different reference than now i had somehow heard the word rehab i didn't even really completely understand what it was so lauren was like listen this is you'll get paid for the first 13. And I just looked across the desk and I went, not knowing what a rehab really was, I went, what if I went into rehab?

And he went, oh, well, that's another story. And then, like, I guess Gary Weiss had been in rehab. He came in. So I had great, like, after insurance. The next thing you know, I was in, like, some, like, high end. And I remember thinking, like, and that's where the line comes from, buddy, the hitting bottom. Because it was 1985.

I had a cashmere coat. I had thousands of dollars. I was getting checks sent to the rehab, being kept in the safe. And I really thought I was hitting bottom. And in a weird way, at that time I was. But I was still in my 20s. I still had my physicality. I was under contract to arguably the biggest comedy show in the country.

You know what I mean? But I thought, boy, this is it. You become the gutter. This is it. And you know what? I don't know, man. Maybe it was easier to embrace the idea of being a failure in that moment and like going, hey, I'm a drug addict, I'm an alcohol,

than it was to actually like face the fear of what it took. I mean, because I was privy to like, you know, top psychiatrists and, you, and they brought AA meetings in and CMA. And it's like I intellectually got it. I intellectually understood this is what I need to do now to not be blowing up this part of my life. Intellectually, but the intellectuality didn't do me any good right no i hadn't gotten it i completely understand i was talking about that with somebody uh the other day like you can understand something but you can't engage it yeah you know like i get that yeah the other thing processed it you hadn't really yeah well you're still not

dealing with the sickness you know right well yeah yeah yeah i get it but can i get a line oh i understand i can't tell you how many guys i say well i wouldn't even say sad to say because i'm the fact that i'm sitting here with you in this lovely room with these you know doing this interview and that i'm 57 and i still smoke cigarettes yeah and the fact that i'm alive, so I can't say sad to say, oh, it's a messed up story. I'm thrilled that I made it through all that, because I'll tell you something, man. Any of these scripts I'm working on, if they get finished, we don't know.

It's all a crapshoot. Or will I start performing again? Somebody will be like, hey, quite a character. Let's throw him in that sitcom. We'll throw him in that film. Yeah, it could happen. But, you know, like guys, you always hear about guys like, oh, yeah, he's playing the part of a guy who's –

so he's spending some time downtown. It's like, you know, man, all that time that I wasn't, like, performing and, like, making it in show business the characters I've met the darkness I've seen I don't need any more prep work oh yeah you want me to be that guy yeah I got you you know what I'm saying like I always hear about some actors

Ryan Gosling was hanging out in a tiki bar in Florida because he wanted to see what people he needed to study that. I got five guys numbers. I call you right now. They're that.

Yeah. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And I had a few people over the years who always say to me like, you know, man, you romanticize your darkness too much. And it's like, you know, they may have had a point. They may or may not have had a point. And it's like, you know, they may have had a point.

They may or may not have had a point. But I will tell you, I wouldn't trade in one moment of all the frigging people that I met. The demi-monde, as the French would say. You know what I'm saying? Like, it was like almost worth having to go through all that. Yeah. To see that side of life that, like, if you'd planned it, you never would have. No, you would have just pretended.

Yeah. You would have lived for someone else's life. Right. You had a life. Yeah, so now the only thing is staying alive to frigging, you know, talk about it. Yeah. Well, I'm glad you're alive, man. You're doing good. Yeah.

This was great, man. Thanks for talking to me. Thanks for, like, I mean, I got to be honest with you. Other than Charlie Rose, this is, like, I've always sought myself, like, at my lowest moment. I always watched Charlie Rose and thought, man, if I to be honest with you. Other than Charlie Rose, this is like I've always sought myself like at my lowest moment. I always watched Charlie Rose and thought, man, if I could just get it together, have a project. I don't know why. I'm not always even that impressed with everything he says, but it's just something about that table. Yeah.

But this was this was like this was the thing. Oh, good. No, this was the thing. Thanks for having me on, brother. It's great to see you, man. Glad you're doing thing. Oh, good. No, this was the thing. Thanks for having me on, brother. It's great to see you, man. I'm glad you're doing well. Thanks, buddy. Love him.

Love it. I hope you enjoyed that. Thank you, Dan. Thank you, man.