WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1330 - The Doobie Brothers / Steven Jenkins

Episode Date: May 12, 2022

The Doobie Brothers is a band with almost twenty official members throughout its five decades of existence. But Tom Johnston and Pat Simmons have been playing guitar and performing vocals for the band since Day One. Tom and Pat talk with Marc about how their family-like band has grown and evolved throughout the years, particularly during iterations with members like Jeff “Skunk” Baxter and Michael McDonald. Also, during his time in Tulsa, Marc pays a visit to the new Bob Dylan Center and talks with its director, Steven Jenkins. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney+. 18-plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Lock the gates! all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast welcome to it how's it going are you all right you okay i've been traveling i just i left Tulsa on Tuesday morning, arrived in Pittsburgh. I'm going to be tonight.

I'll be just outside Pittsburgh at the Carnegie of Homestead, that haunted place. Then tomorrow on Friday, I'm in Cleveland, Ohio at the Mimi Ohio Theater. Then on Saturday, I'm in Royal Oak, Michigan at the Music Theater. Next week, Washington, D.C. at the Kennedy Center on May 20th. Red Bank, New Jersey at the Count Basie Center on May 21st. And Philadelphia at the Keswick Theater on May 22nd. I know you can go to WTFpod.com slash tour for information on these dates. I know that Detroit and Philly are getting tight.

Let's talk about the world. I'm not, look, I understand. I've been rambling on and aggravated and trying to stand firm in the face of a fascist momentum in this country. I know that a tremendous blow has been dealt to the women of this country with this seemingly unavoidable overturning of Roe v. Wade.

I get it to the degree that I can get it. I think it's fucking terrible. I don't really know what to do because it is a tremendously shameless and thorough authoritarian move, a Christian fascist move that makes it clear what this future will be it becomes difficult and sad figuring out how to fight it there's never been something as definitive in terms of where we're going as a country in terms of the theocratic authoritarianism i mean it's happening on top of that

the state i live in has no water and fires are coming i know what's happening i'm trying to to handle it i don't know what to tell you i don't know what my job is right now other than to you know comfort a dying patient but uh but the doobie brothers are here today and the guy who's a the director of the uh of the bob dylan center these are nourishing things the bob dylan center was very mentally and soulfully nourishing in terms of just standing in the shadow of one of the greatest sort of literary and songwriting and musical artists of of all time and trying to relate on some level because you want to feel like you're kind of like bob dylan right? So getting to look at those notebooks, I'm like,

I carry around notebooks and scribble in them too. I'm just like Bob Dylan. I got little notebooks. Maybe one day all my little notebooks will be open in a museum and everybody will look at them and go like, how did he even understand what he wrote? I could read Dylan's writing. I can't read mine.

So I guess that makes me more expressive in some ways, more challenging than Bob. Because I challenge myself to try to read what I've written on a Post-it. But look, it's true. I am talking to Tom Johnston and Pat Simmons of the Doobie Brothers. They're two of the original, original members, both on guitar and vocals. And they've been with the band for its entire existence. They have a new memoir out called Long Train Runnin', our story of the Doobie Brothers.

But before, as I said, I talked to the Doobies. I'm going to talk to Stephen Jenkins. But before that, what I'd like to do is talk a little bit about uh reservation dogs and my experience on that set because i missed you know i canceled my dates at dynasty typewriter because i knew that if sterling harjo was going to ask me to do this show or cast me on this show i would do anything to do it because i do think it is one of the best shows ever made for a lot of reasons primarily the reason that it is uh you know native owned and operated to a degree obviously fx is the is the network but this is a native operation and through this show we see and feel the point of view the way of life the humor the spirituality the uh the the cultural sort of influences and impact that come in and go

out of the native community and it's never been seen like this before this is a completely groundbreaking affair and i i was thrilled to be part of it and to be on the set was great because it was totally collaborative completely diverse and and interesting it was you know i'm in oklahoma with a bunch of native people you know getting that point of view and being part of executing those stories and i was thrilled and i just wanted to give some props to the people that were involved obviously sterling hard joe but uh the writer bobby wilson of the episode i was on uh which was great stay gold cheesy boy that's the name of the episode stay gold cheesy boy by bobby wilson so he was around and he was you know it was uh fun talking to that guy and

working with that guy because we were doing a lot of improvising and the um the the director black horse low was also very open to improvising as was uh sterling and the other actors were great i was working with a bunch of kids i play the guy who runs sort of a recovery halfway house for these kids and cheese played by lane factor has been put in there and i'm the guy running the place and the other the other kids were great too ronaldo pinella was uh played this guy julio travis thompson played tino he's a rapper from seattle native guy cameron alexander played uh james aj volton played jed throw uh And those are the kids I worked with. I always wonder like, what, what am I supposed to be doing? What is this character? But then when I get there, I'm like, well, he's going to be me.

And then when we were just riffing this guy, who's this kind of quirky, you know, it wasn't really written for me per se. It was written sort of more as a kind of Marines, you know, drill sergeant, he kind of guy, but I just played him as this kind of, you know drill sergeant kind of guy but i just played him as this kind of you know weirdo who had this life experience this cranky weirdo and uh and we were just improvising our balls off you know and they would encourage it which is rare and fun and i tell you no matter how how good the episode comes out or when anybody thinks of the episode itself the experience of making these guys especially the director especially uh black horse low i had him laughing

so hard i'm like my job is done i don't even care how this thing comes out they this guy is laughing so hard it is so fucking beautiful that i'm like that that's enough for me they could do whatever they want with this thing we got some laughs going man it was just a great time tulsa was really as i said before i saw all those concerts and stuff and bob dylan center oh and the uh the real surprise for me which i didn't know if it was going to happen or not because i'm a big fan of his is I got to work with Zahn McLaren, who plays Big the cop on Reservation Dogs. He's also been in a couple of other Sterling Harjo movies. You know him from Westworld and some other stuff. He's a very definitive person, a one of a kind dude.

And I didn't know if I was going to get to work with him. But not only did I get to work with him, but we hung out for quite a bit on the set and talked about stuff about uh you know sober life stuff being of a certain age and whatnot i i hope i can get them into the uh into the garage back in glendale i think we're going to make it happen we talked about it but uh that was just another um great uh you know part of doing reservation dogs we're getting to hang out with that guy and kind of get to know him. So I hope we get to talk. But he's funny and amazing. Great actor.

But so the Bob Dylan Center all sort of fell into a weird place for me. I got wind of it through Peter Shore, who hooked me up with Jesse Dylan, who hooked me up with Bob Dylan's guy, Larry Jenkins, who then hooked me up with Jesse Dillon, who hooked me up with Bob Dillon's guy, Larry Jenkins, who then hooked me up with his brother, Stephen, who is the director of the place. And I went in and I looked at it and I had a great, it's a completely immersive experience. There's a lot of amazing bits of ephemera. Is that what you call it? Artifacts, manuscripts, notebooks, the original tambourine that the Hey Mr. Tambourine Man

was based on. Artifacts from his wallet. Johnny Cash's phone number. Three little spiral notebooks that he was doodling and writing the lyrics to. What on the tracks. I mean, it's all there. Just recordings of things that have never been heard before. And look, it's Bob Dylan.

And Stephen, as you'll hear, when I talked to him, said there's like 100,000 things that they have. The Woody Guthrie Center is right next door. It's in the same building, and Kane's Ballroom. Tulsa is its own thing, and it was pretty great, and the Bob Dylan Center, I just lucked out on being there, so i just had to jump at the opportunity to talk to stephen jenkins the director of the bob dylan center in tulsa just had its grand opening on tuesday and you can go to bob dylan center.com for info if you want to visit it and this is me talking to uh stephen jenkins so there's some questions i have you know leading up to uh to talking about the archive like the kaiser family like i i know like i think um tim blake nelson is related to the kaiser

family he could be i know i know he's got tulsa roots. Oh, no, he's from here. Yeah, I was doing a lot of, it's a real motley crew of folks who have... It's interesting because he's of, like, the, there was a, he's from a Jewish family. He's a Jewish guy. And there was a movement of like, you know, after, I think after the Holocaust, they spread out. A lot of Jews came from Europe and they were like, yeah, we

got to get you spread out because we can't let that happen again. Yes, right. So, like, they ended up... Scatter. Yeah. You can't get all of us if we do that but but the kaiser family's oil family and they're just uh uh they're old school oklahoma it's yet very true george kaiser who i finally have the pleasure of meeting i hadn't been able to do so through the whole months months long interview process but i met him at our opening night dinner just the other night you know i've been getting to know very well uh the executive director there at the George Kaiser Foundation, just a mensch of a guy, Ken Levitt, and all these other folks.

But George, to his, you know, deserves all credit as what I'm gathering a couple months in, he's really sort of the patron saint of the city. You know, I've jumped into Ubers, and the driver first thing says first thing says, are you new to Tulsa? Hey, have you heard about George Kaiser? I mean, this is a guy, there's so much civic pride here. And what he's been able to do for the city, first investing in early childhood education with an eye on equity across every line here, and then doing a lot of civic enhancement. So we've got this beautiful park, 64 acres right along the Arkansas River. Is that the gathering place?

That's the gathering place, a really, really lovely spot. Bike trails all through the city. It's very outdoorsy. And then there's a rich arts and culture ecosystem here, and the Dillon Center will be a part of that. Yeah, I was at the Canes Ballroom three nights in a row, and it was unbelievable. Yeah, that's a storied space. You feel the history there oh no you definitely can't yeah

so when so he did he also buy the the guthrie archive so kaiser acquired the guthrie archives and uh the guthrie center opened in 2013 yeah uh and has done very well you know with a whole range of programming looking at guthrie's life and work, really with an eye towards sort of the social conscience, social justice aspect of what Guthrie has stood for. And if I can make a sort of a contrast, the Dillon Center, which we're just about to open to the public, is focused more on that kind of unfettered creativity.

Yeah, I like the way that was framed in the thing. It really is compelling to me, the idea of restless creativity. Like, I never really thought of him like that, but because that's sort of, that's a great current to kind of label it. Yeah, it struck a chord. And as we were... Who came up with that? You know, digging through the archives and the archival materials themselves were suggesting narratives and suggesting context and because we have the guthrie center here and

we had established the strong focus on again the social justice component of what an artist who's committed with three chords and the truth can do yeah dylan of course who does the same to this day even you know 60 years on from the Fouquet Day, we thought, wouldn't it be fun to really, really highlight the creative instinct and the creative impulse and the process? And when we found that we had, say, 40 pages of lyrics for the song Dignity, you know, rewriting, revising, doodles in the margins of the manuscript pages. When you see 10 plus versions

of different stanzas from Joker Man that you can now, in a sense, scroll through using interactive elements, it tapped into this idea that Dylan, who, you know, we all, the royal we, tend to think of as this hallowed genius. Yeah. Who somehow operates in this lofty realm where these songs spring fully formed and perfect.

Yeah. Well, it's heartening to see that even someone of this caliber, who, let's face it, stands alone, is caught in the grip of a song that he can't get right. Oh, yeah. It's like a math equation. Like, it just becomes, you know the poetry of yeah it's fascinating because of course of course he's like puts that much work yes but somehow um despite say the bootleg series where we've now over the years heard earlier versions of songs yeah seeing the handwritten lyrics and the crossed out you know x's across a typewritten line so many pages so many

pages so many lines things that look brilliant but obviously you did you know didn't pass muster for him yeah yeah uh and so uh through all this these interactive ways i think visitors are going to be able to pour through materials and and get a sense of of the application of craft and of getting the word right, getting the phrase right. But has he come here? He has not. So, you know, here's what we know. Bob Dylan was very, very happy for his archives to be acquired by, again, the Kaiser Foundation and to find their permanent home here in Tulsa.

Next to Woody. Next to Woody. Next to Woody. So that had to figure in, knowing everything that we know about the debt he's paid in a way to Woody, especially in the early years. There was sort of a handing over a mantle from the elder statesman to the new coffee house kid. And of course, then he went on to explore so many other different musical idioms. But there's definitely a through line there. I think as well, by all accounts, Dylan responded very positively just to the vibe of the city.

Yeah. He liked the folks he was meeting. He also acknowledged that. So he was around. He was in town. He came to the Guthrie Center at one point. He had entered into conversations with the decision makers around all of this. He responded very positively.

We have a wonderful museum here with a very historically important collection called the Gilcrease. And the Gilcrease is strong in documents of Americana. The Emancipation Proclamation is right here in Tulsa. Who knew? As is a copy of the Declaration of Independence and very strong in Native American art and culture.

And of course, we're on Native American land. And Dylan felt that the city as a whole was recognizing that lineage properly and it resonated with him. And so once the deal was done and Dylan did agree to make the towering gate that greets visitors when they walk in. I had no idea that he was an iron work artist.

He toils away in his studio on this metal work and it's fantastic. So he made it specifically for this place? He did. It's site specific. I was just looking at it a few minutes ago. Yeah, it's a pretty fascinating piece. I mean, we could go into a whole thing on what that might represent. It's salvage pieces and bits of metal, of iron stuff

that he welds together into a frame. Yes, into this wonderful abstract form. I happen to think it references American industry, and you can see maybe the dying out of tradition there. You can also see an honoring of handcrafted work. Yeah, and also his childhood. Apparently, Minnesota was a big iron mine place. Yes.

But walking through the museum, it's very manageable. So it's overwhelming to a degree, but it's still that primary space, which I imagine is going to stay relatively permanent, right? Some will, but there will be a lot of switching in and out of material.

Upstairs or both? On both floors? On both floors. The chronology that Sean Wilentz, the brilliant Dillon scholar, essayist, and historian, has put together for us that separates key the brilliant Dillon scholar and essayist and historian, has put together for us that separates key moments in Dillon's life out into nine eras. And you can read it as a chronology,

but you can also go backwards to forwards, or you can jump into the middle. That, I think, provides a good framework for the eras and the decades. And of course, we'll add to that, because don't forget, this is an archive and a center devoted to a living artist who will always be outrunning us and we will forever be chasing after him. Well, how much do you have? I mean, how much stuff is there? All in between physical objects and pieces that have been digitized, particularly the recordings that we've broken out into individual tracks, also known as stems. We're talking about, that we've broken out into individual tracks, also known as stems.

We're talking about, give or take, 100,000 items. That's crazy. And obviously, not all that's on the bootleg series. Correct. There's much more here. You know, again, it's the notebooks that he kept. I know, all the notebooks. Pocket sketch pads.

The little spiral notebook, because now you've got these moleskin books. books, but back then it was those little spiral. Absolutely. Picked up at a drugstore, the corner store. Like three or four of just all the Tangled Up and Woo sketches. Yes. Or Blood on the Track stuff. Yes, that's pivotal.

This is sort of the holy grail, I think, for the hardcore Dylanologists. Is it? There had been whispered rumors all these years. Dylan kept these small notebooks, and he was working and reworking and revising and crossing out, you know, that suite of songs that became Blood on the Tracks. They're known as the Blood Notebooks. Oh, wow. Really? Yes.

Well, sure enough, once we got the archives, we found the two other notebooks. Where were these? Like a house in Minnesota? At the farm or what? A desk drawer, a cardboard box. Minnesota at the farm or what? A desk drawer, a cardboard box. Dylan, for all his espousal of Don't Look Back,

did think enough to keep this stuff, which I find an interesting paradox. Where was most of it? He was keeping it and occasionally he'd hand it over to his manager and folks in the office to say, I suppose, I'm paraphrasing badly, I don't mean to put words in his mouth, we should do something with this at some point. And the time came in 2016 to find a home for all this material and here we are in tulsa spread out over like i mean i know he had that farm up in minnesota and then there's a house

in la and there's an apartment in new york it's just everywhere it was everywhere it was collecting and and stacking up and occasionally you know, shipments of things would sort of arrive in the New York office. With jackets and outfits, like, you know, harmonica holders. Like, it's crazy. The tambourine from the hit Tambourine Man song. Yep.

Bruce Langhorne's tambourine held together with a band-aid. And of course, you know, we retain all of that. That's the beauty of the historical object. Where'd you find that thing? That is in the archive all of this came to us and it was just this really unprecedented trove i must say for

you like when you got the gig um you know what was the the most exciting thing that you know i'm still discovering the treasures and i hope to be surprised daily as I think our visitors will be as they come in. But, you know, seeing a letter handwritten from Johnny Cash to Bob filled with all this wordplay and puns and you get a sense of the friendship that they had, the mutual respect. And there's a reverence there. And there are aspects of the archive that show a kind of, whether they're from Dylan himself or from his compatriots and friends, you know, this is a guy who we do take seriously and we treat with the utmost respect, but there's a lot of irreverence and wit in there.

And I think sometimes we forget that. But, you know, this is the shapeshifter. This is the jokester. Is he the joker man of which he speaks? You know, that's a whole other conversation. Even the stuff, the phone numbers in his wallet, Otis writing his business card, that's crazy that that stuff is still around. It's here.

It was in his wallet, in his back pocket. The letter he wrote to Hendrix about All Along the Watchtower. It's beautiful. He said, you know, it's hard enough to see into one's own soul. I feel that with your version of All Along the Watchtower, you've actually seen into mine. This is typed in one long paragraph on a kind of onion skin piece of paper. It's so great to see. I just don't like, where was this stuff?

I just, somebody, I don't know. It's very interesting. Well, either Dylan himself was keeping things that, you know, he was in receipt of, for example, get well cards after his motorcycle accident. Right. You know, we might keep our own get well cards, but they're probably not from the Harrison family and the McCartney family.

Yeah, right. So we have that stuff. You know, fan mail by the volume, by the bag, an incredibly moving letter that a soldier wrote when he was in Vietnam telling Bob, if I can use a first name in this context, Bob, I heard your songs on the radio. I'm out here in hell in Vietnam. I just

want to get back home and touch my family. And you're helping me because I'm hearing these songs on the radio. There's so many of those sorts of reminders of the very personal connection that all of us have to one degree or another to this body of of work but to the man behind it too yeah to what we know but what's also just like striking me now is that through all these different phases even periods where you know he kind of fell out of like you know what's going on with bob yes the born again here's well yeah but those were good records but i mean but there were periods where you know his relevance was sort of diminishing in a way but the through line no matter what he's presenting on stage,

whether he's wearing this white face makeup for the Rolling Thunder or he's Christian or whatever, it's just that writing. It's always the song. Yes. Because when you watch some of the concert footage of what was clearly a Christian performance, he's not doing anything other than being Bob Dylan,

but it's just the context changes. But there's something that remains constant. So when people are always asking, like, what's he so elusive at the core. And this center is, you know, our intention is not to say, look, we finally got a hold of the stuff. We have a hundred thousand items here. And if we just look hard enough, yes, but we have it, but we're not trying to say, hey, Bob, we got you figured out. We got your number. First of all, what's the fun in that? Who wants to reduce the man who contains multitudes to some easy simple answer and also something he's really put a boundary up to being he's he's that's the one thing that he's been able to do is you know not be reduced culturally i mean people make fun of his voice or they can parody his song it's all surface sure because it doesn't even

stick when you like that's the great thing about the interactive element, which you did very effectively with the little iPods or whatever. Yes, the audio guides. Right, but they're audio guides, but they're really just, most of it, songs. Yeah. There's some interviews, but they're just songs, and they kind of put you in the place of it. That's the intention, and if we can set you in Greenwich Village in 1963 for a moment, if you feel like you're a little closer to being on stage

during the Rolling Thunder review tour, if you can step into his shoes, if you will, looking at the uniform, the costume that he wore in the film Masked and Anonymous, which is a great little hidden gem that not a lot of people have seen. We have this stuff, but it's more than memorabilia. It has to be. Otherwise,

we're the Hard Rock Cafe. A no knock on that. That's a fun experience. I want to see little Stevie's guitar. That's great. But you kind of move on and you go get your French fries. Here, it's storytelling, it's narrative, it's context, and it's what you as a visitor bring to the experience. know your emotional connection absolutely if we're doing our job well we're presenting the information and the materials in a way that's both rigorously researched as any archive and center must be but also accessible and open-ended and and what how did you like i i'd read something about that there might be controversy about the the what six songs that were selected selected as these songs of these eras,

that there's going to be pushback. I keep picturing this sort of weird community of Dylan nerds. Has there been? I love those Dylan nerds. I am one. Thank you very much. Listen, bring it on. Good natured debate.

You know, why the man in me you know why not lay lady lay we're talking about the six songs that we go very deep into at the center of the Columbia Records Gallery where you have these quadrants you can walk around and you get all this information and material around the writing of the song yeah then the the recording and producing of it the performances of the song the way Dylan changes and rearranges it, the performances of the song, the way Dylan changes and rearranges so often on stage throughout the years. And then what's fun too is you look at and can consider how the songs have second, third, fourth lives. Let's talk about The Man in Me for a moment. You know, what would have maybe been thought of as a deep cut from New Morning,

just a lovely kind of Sunday morning afternoon, as the album title suggests, with The Man in Me. And T-Bone Burnett then plucked that out and put it on the soundtrack to The Big Lebowski. Right. And it sort of took on a whole different life. It found a different audience. So we have a film clip from The Big Lebowski

and there's the dude and he's abiding. And it's the great Jeff Bridges. And you can sort of think about, well, how does the song change in that context? And maybe if you skipped New Morning in the early 70s, you'll go back to that one. So, yes, we have these six songs. If you don't like those six, first of all, something's wrong with you. But, you know, come back in a few months,

and we'll have new exhibition displays for six different songs. Is that how you can do it? Absolutely. So there's such an embarrassment of riches here. Yeah. We can come up with another six. And upstairs, you had the paintings, some paintings and the photographs. We've got Dylan's oldest known oil painting from 1968.

Yeah. And in ensuing years, he's become a really, he applies himself quite seriously to painting these wonderful landscapes. We have a suite of pastels that he's done uh in 2012 that i think will really take people by surprise there's a cinema in which we're starting with a 45 minute program of dylan videos and films so now do you have appointments on the books of scholars that want to come absolutely and even before the center proper um opened you know since we've had the materials in Tulsa, they've been in an archival space over near the Skilcrease Museum, which I

mentioned earlier. And we've already seen a couple books and dissertations and studies and essays come out of the materials. And yes, academics and scholars are lining up for the opportunity to come in. You need to be accredited. We have a vetting process. But of course, we want to make this as accessible to folks as possible. We don't want to keep precious objects in locked boxes. The idea is to make this material available. That happens in 15,000 square feet of public exhibition space. And it'll happen in a quieter library-like setting for scholars. Okay. Well, thank you for talking. It it was great and mark it's my pleasure and also like what do you think that

is going to happen in this city how do you like because it seems like as uh you know the west coast burns and runs out of water that that a lot of these um sort of like cities within these states are going to have this influx i think we're about to have a boom. I really do. I would love to think that the Dillon Center will play a role in that. Sure. I have to think this will help put Tulsa on the map in a different way. And folks will come here, and I really hope they stick around because there's a lot else going on here.

Well, it's beautiful here. There's an artist fellowship program that's bringing in really cutting edge folks from all around the country. There's a program called Tulsa Remote, where if you are a digital nomad and can work from anywhere, come out here. Guess what? You get a $10,000 payment to come and essentially bring your intellectual capital to the city.

We've got it going. Come to Tulsa. There you go. Big promotion for Tulsa. Thanks a lot, Stephen. All right. Thank you. There you go.

That guy is on it. Wow. He's just like rolling that dude, Stephen Jenkins. BobDillonCenter.com is where you can go for information. I think that's the lowdown. He did make it clear to me after the interview, because I didn't seem to ask him, but it must have stuck in his head that he didn't get the job through knowing his brother,

who's been working for Bob Dylan for 30 years. It was, he got it on the level. He wanted me to know that. I believe him. He seems like a very on top of it fella that guy uh so now i got an opportunity to talk to the doobie brothers i thought every fucking doobie brother songs i remember singing black water in the miniature school bus that i used to take to fifth grade manzano day school and we would just sit there with the radio on and all the kids

singing black water i remember that china grove come on jesus is just all right minute by minute uh there's a lot of hits and i thought like sure man i'll talk to the doobies oh what a fool believes listen to the music long train running uh taking it to the streets. It keeps you running. You know these songs, don't you? You know, you get it, man. You get it.

The Doobie Brothers. So I thought like, I'll talk to Pat and Tom, Pat Simmons, Tom Johnson. The memoir is called Long Train Running, Our Story of the Doobie Brothers.

It's available wherever you get books. And I got to text with uh tom a bit because he left his harley jean jacket his harley davison jean jacket at my house so we're kind of texting buddies now and he uh he had great things to say about uh about sort of trust he loves the movie the lynn shelton film uh that i, the last Lynn Shelton film that I acted in. He's a big fan of that. But here they are, the Doobie Brothers, Pat and Tom. Are you self-employed? Don't think you need business insurance? Think again.

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We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Which one's Tom? You're Tom.

You're Pat. Yeah. It's weird because I know you guys. I know your faces. I feel like I've known you my whole life. I do. I was trying to figure out when did Blackwater come out? What year?

75. 75? Something like that, yeah. Because I remember being in a little school bus, singing it with a bunch of other kids. I do. Because I grew up in New Mexico, but I guess anywhere you grow up, the Doobie Brothers songs were just everywhere.

China Grove was everywhere. Blackwater was everywhere. It was crazy. Because when they asked me, you want to talk to these guys? I'm like, I guess I better. And I'd say they sing quick before they're gone. I mean, I can name every one of their hits.

I can sing most of them, which is crazy because they're just in there, man. They're in there. So what made you finally do the book? Who talked you into that? A guyris yeah talked us into doing that what was the deal he just said you guys you gotta have a story i met he knows you much better than i do well i met chris he was uh and and still does right for the huffington post yeah i do these occasionally uh motorcycle events antique motorcycle events where we ride cross country yeah on early motorcycles and that year was uh 1916 and earlier motorcycles and is it your hobby riding old motorcycles uh you know i kind of the the old motorcycles have

been a hobby and the writing has been something the writing has been uh you know, kind of the, the old motorcycles have been a hobby and the writing has been something, the writing has been, uh, you know, something more recent. Oh yeah. Past 10, 10 years. Oh, that's something you want to pick up when you're older. A lot with a bike when it goes down. Well, you know, they don't go that fast. And it's, it's, it's, you know, it's like being on a carnival ride for hours and hours.

You're not doing motocross. No, no. Yeah. But it's a competition. But anyhow, so he came out to do a little interview about that. And then we were, soon after that, we were doing a gig in San Diego. Yeah. Four or five years ago, maybe.

Yeah. And then he came to a gig. He lives in San Diego. So he came to a gig, and in san diego so he came to a gig and i was sitting around talking with him he says have you guys ever done a bio biography has anybody ever written a book and i go i don't think so but i think there was something years ago yeah yeah yeah it was junky you know right and so uh no he said well you you know you guys should do something right and so he kind of came up with this idea. Why don't you and Tommy write a book together because you guys started the band.

And it would be interesting to have it from your perspective because you've been there all these years and kind of started it. And here you are still doing it. It's crazy. And so he said, I can help you. He had just done a book with uh we're doing it with john john oats sure and uh so what happened to hall he wasn't he didn't want to be part of it uh i don't know he did he became friends with john and so it was from it was john's take on it's always interesting to me to to like, I've never talked to anybody in a band that there weren't fucking problems.

That's part of the deal, I think, you know? Well, yeah, I mean, like, sometimes I can't understand it, you know, because sometimes, like, you hear about guys, they break up right after they do their big record. And it's like, what the fuck happened? But, I mean, look, man, I guess if they're annoying, they're annoying. I don't know. You guys okay? Yeah, we're fine. You know, human relationships are complicated.

They are. It's kind of like a big family. I mean, sometimes you go at it, sometimes you don't. On the stage, everything just works. So that's the part that matters. Well, yeah, I guess at this point, I don't know. How many guys were, where did it start originally? How many guys were in the original band? Every album cover, I always remember, they't know, how many guys were, like, where did it start originally? How many guys were in the original band?

Every album cover, I always remember, they're like, how many are there? They're 12, nine, six? Depends on what year it is.

I know, but like, we started out with, originally four, I mean, the actual Doobie Brothers band. Really? Yeah,

there was a band that fed into that. Pat was in a different band. Where was this? This was in San Jose. The whole thing started in San Jose. San Jose.

Is that where you grew up? I did. Really? I did. I grew up in the valley in Visalia. Right here? A little north of Bakersfield. Oh, really?

So that's like- Great place to be from. Yeah, it sounds like it. Yeah, because I guess everyone says what I just said. Where? Yeah. Well, I don't mind that. That's okay.

But Bakersfield, there's some music going on in Bakersfield, right? There used to be country. I guess. I don't know what's going on in the valley these days. I don't mind that. That's okay. But Bakersfield, there's some music going on in Bakersfield, right? There used to be country. I guess. I don't know what's going on in the valley these days. I don't keep up. But like who was so, like when you guys, so you moved to the Bay Area? I did. I went to college up San Jose State.

So how do you guys meet? Well, we were in that music scene that was around the area, which was actually pretty active. Playing a club with different, he was in a band. I was playing with another guy what year was this 69 69

so this is like it's all yeah we're not 30 I know that but I mean this is like you know

but that's like the peak of it right it's crazy right it was jumping it was it was very active who were the people that were around

when you were there in San Jose were there people that we would know now that you followed maybe not in San Jose so much most of them were in San Francisco as you said when you guys there in San Jose? Were there people that we would know now? Maybe not in San Jose so much. Most of them were in San Francisco, as you said. When you guys put the band together,

how did you find the other guys? Well, John Hartman and I started a band together in San Jose. He came out from Washington, D.C. He came out with a bass player friend of his and he wanted to meet Skip Spence. A lot of things kind of revolved around the whole Moby Grape thing. And I knew Skip at the time you did and yeah i was hanging around and skip introduced us really yeah

so you guys knew the moby grape guys yeah yeah because skip like that that album or has been reissued and i have i have it and it's like uh it's almost disturbing well i'm not gonna get deep about this. He was a little out there himself. Yeah, what was the story with that guy? Because you listen to that record and it's got its own time zone. It's like, and I thought initially it was like, is he strung out? But I think he was just a little mental, right?

He was diagnosed schizophrenic, but they didn't get around to diagnosing it until much later. We all had fun and did whatever. And then they decided to diagnose it. I think Skip, you know, it wasn't a good time for his condition. Sure. He was doing

substance abuse and so on and I think that really triggered him into a worse state than he might have normally. Right.

Well, that happened with a few guys. Like, you know, I think Peter Green was like that from Fleetwood Mac.

Like, but I, I don't know, you know, you're fucking with acid and. It could have happened to any of us, you know i think uh peter green was like that from wood mac like but i i don't know you know you with acid and it could have happened to any of us you know yeah so okay so skipping you at that time moby grape's pretty big their big act when you started it already happened actually to be honest with you we were talking 60 they were big for like you talked about a band they put out their big album and right that was what they were kind of i mean they put out another album after that and I liked it, but they didn't last very long.

And then if you read about them anywhere, you can see why. Yeah, yeah. I think that first album came out somewhere around 66, 67. It's a good record. And then there's the two covers, the one with him flipping people off

and then one with him not. That was all done in San Rafael, right down on 4th Street. It was? Yeah. That's crazy. So, all right. So you you guys the bass player from he comes out from dc the drummer that was a drummer uh john harman he came out with a friend of his as a bass player and they ended up living in the house on 12th street which is where everything kind of happened happened but he and i started

a band which was well the three of us excuse me started the band that was ultimately metal well not metal heavy rock excuse me yeah and and r&b with a horn section or the next night it might have chick singers and it'll be we kind of just mixed it up in the map yeah we're all over the map and we're just playing wherever we could find a place to put something down and you know yeah yeah sure and then we played a gig with the Skip yeah a couple of guys that he was gonna play

a gig with canceled on him or whatever yeah and he got John and I to come in and take their place and we played

at a place called I guess the Gaslight Theater is that right yeah the Gaslight it was actually the old Campbell movie theater

in Campbell really Pat was on the bill a suburb of- And that's how you met him? Yeah. And you just quit your band? No, we just kind of got to be friends and hung out. And I used to go over and jam with the guys, Tom and John.

How old were you guys? Not very. Yeah. 21, 22. Yeah, about that. And when did you start- When does it start to uh to gel like when do you because i mean there's so much competition did you think of it that way i don't think anybody no it was just we were having fun doing it it was a great thing to be

doing but mostly covers right not really we wrote a lot of songs yeah early on early on we started writing songs yeah we just it just seemed to like many things in this band, it just happened. Yeah. There's no rhyme or reason. It's just whatever was going to happen did. We did some covers, but a lot of our material was self-penned, and then we'd just extend the songs to fill the time that we needed to fill. Sure, sure.

A lot of solos. Yeah, a lot of jamming. Yeah, a lot of that. And were lot of jamming yeah yeah and did you uh were people coming around did they take to you after a while i mean right off the bat we were playing i can remember some of the illustrious places we played like golf courses you know good stuff yeah we ended up at the chateau and that's when things started to pop when we played venues where it was a music venue that people came to hear music, then it was always a very good response.

But we played stuff where we were just, you know. Sure. Pizza parlors. The gigs, yeah, yeah. Weddings. Ricardo's Pizza Parlor. Ricardo's Pizza Parlor? It's the other day. I don't remember anything about it, I just know it was there.

Places just to make noise, to make people. But like at the beginning, because it evolved in sort of, you guys sound like the Doobie Brothers, but in the beginning, what was the sound when you first started? Were you harder or less? What, as a target sound? Well, I mean like. I would say it was always kind of who we are.

Oh, yeah? Yeah. We had a diverse musical background. Not real it was always kind of who we are. Oh, yeah? Yeah. I mean, we had diverse musical background. Not real diverse, but sort of diverse. Yeah. Pat does a lot of finger picking. Yeah. He was with a band called Scratch, and they were really, really good.

Was that like a country folk place? It was just an oddball, you know, eclectic thing. Yeah. Bass player, drummer, violin player. Okay, yeah. And I came from like R&B and rock and roll alright so it starts to mix up you stick all that together and that's what you get

were you guys going to shows back then? oh yeah I used to, well I was still living in Visayas I would drive up for the weekend and crash at my sister's pad in Santa Clara and I would go hang out in the hate all day long and I saw Albert King i was there for cream

little incident prevented me from seeing that but what was that that sounds like a good story um oh it was the acid incident what was it no it wasn't that i got kicked out but it was uh other film work yeah i saw butterfield there a lot i saw you know jefferson airplane would play the dead would play well so all that stuff's going on i can like, every time I talk to dudes who have lived through that, I would think that those kind of things stick in your head forever, some of those shows. They were pretty amazing, especially at that age. I mean, I was 18, I guess.

Yeah. And very impressionable. Yeah, yeah. If you were in The Hate at that time, and it was another universe, man. It was crazy. Was it like, did it feel fun? I enjoyed it.

Yeah, because, I mean, it did kind of go bad at some point, right? About a year later. It only lasted for a year, I mean, as far as the summer I loved. Yeah. And then speed hit and ruined everything? Is that the story?

That was the story. I wasn't around to watch that, but that's what I heard. Did you know any of any of those grateful dead guys i didn't really know them well i used to oddly enough i just met and spoke with bob weir a little bit last year oh really that's the first time i'd ever really spoken to him and jerry i'd run into a couple of times yeah played with another friend of mine uh merle saunders who was an organ player and stuff but i didn't really know any of them really well. Because they were over in the Bay Area, too, right?

Palo Alto area, way back, like Jerry was when he was doing folk music. That's where they started, Palo Alto. Yeah, it's all from that same area. All right, so what happens? How do you get the record deal? Actually, we can sort of thank Skip. Skip Spence. Yeah, he got us into a studio in San Mateo, and we just went up there and cut some demos of songs we'd written.

And that was it? Well, they tell us we got signed on the strength of that. I don't know if I buy that. Ted Templeman was working in the A&R department. He had gotten a gig as a listener doing various odd jobs around. That was his first position. Yeah, yeah. He wrote a little biography recently that's

really a good read uh that of him about yeah about his life and um so he was he was working there uh he had been in a band called harper's bazaar and uh they had done a wreck of couple records i guess for warners and then he kind of uh went to work for Lenny Warnker. Yeah. Lenny was a producer there. I've heard that name. He's like a big producer, right, for years? He ended up as-

Yeah, I don't know how active he is at this point. He's still around. Oh, yeah? Lenny Warnker. Yeah, he produced, you know, got James Taylor. He produced all the Gordon Lightfoot stuff. Sure. All the big hits and stuff.

It's weird about Gordon Lightfoot. I was thinking about him the other day. Like, if I could read your mind. Like, if that was the only song he wrote, all the big hits and stuff. It's weird about Gordon Lightfoot. I was thinking about him the other day. Like, if I could read your mind. Like, if that was the only song he wrote, it would be enough. Yeah. He has a great song. Really? I think Lenny produced that.

I'm pretty sure. Yeah? But anyway, so Teddy was, you know, just kind of, they would, people would send in demos and he had a big pile and they they'd put them in his box. He would go pick them up and go into the office and sit there and listen to tapes. And he heard our tape. And according to his description, he listened to hundreds of tapes. And very little was impressed.

It popped, huh? And he liked what he heard. Very little was impressed. It popped, huh? And he liked what he heard. So he went to the big guys and they said, yeah, we like that too. And so Lenny and Teddy, it was kind of one of his very first productions. It may have been his first production was our record. Oh, yeah.

And he did it in conjunction with Lenny and they produced that first album. And how'd that thing sell? Not very well. Bupkis. Nothing? I'm looking at the cover right now, and I don't think I've ever seen that record in my life. See? 10,000 copies, I think, initially.

Is that it? Great Testament. But actually, 10,000 copies. I've seen all the other ones. A lot. You didn't see that for a reason. It didn't sell. Who's that?

Like, look at you guys, man. The big guy in the front is Lil Jon. So now you know what Lil Jon looked like at least back then. That's that dude. Is he still around? He just passed away. Just passed, yeah. Sorry.

You guys all stayed in touch, all 90 of you, over the years? A little bit. We tried. Much as possible. Yeah? Yeah. Okay, so the first album album goes and it does what it does and then you still get another shot i guess that was the time you had someone who believed in

ted was yeah that was the warners i guess because we started working on another album at wally hiders in san francisco with uh some of the people that we were involved with even previous to getting involved on the first one yeah and we kind of weren't headed in the right direction, and I think we probably knew it, but Ted... What's that mean, though? Well, that means that Warner's heard the stuff that we were into doing at that point, or not into, but we had created,

and they weren't that excited. And so they set Ted back up, and that's when we really started working with Ted, because the first one really was produced by Lenny. Like, when that happens, though happens though, is it your sound? What are they looking for? Because you never hear... That's it though. That is it. I mean, they

stood behind bands more than a lot of labels did. They were really good with it. I think initially, you know, as you say, with Lenny being more of a roots kind of folky oriented guy, I think they saw us that way and that really

wasn't who we were we wanted to be you know aspired to be a rock and roll band right and so Ted came in and he recognized you know what we were looking for and he felt the same way that we had more than just you know

folk right blues right yeah yeah yeah and uh so we you know then then we really kind of blossomed we ended up uh our bass player left and we after the first record after the first record yeah and he knew success when he saw it. And so I had a friend that I had been playing with prior to working with him. The first bass player was, I went to high school with him. Really? Yeah.

The guy who quit? The guy who quit. Yeah, yeah. And then, so Tyron Porter was the guy who came in and Tyron was a killer bass player. And he was with you for how many records? A lot. Yeah?

Yeah. It's wild. Eight, 10 records. So the second record, boom, you got hits. Yes. And we brought in another drummer also. A second drummer or a new drummer? He was a guy that we had known from another band

who kind of got up to jam with us one night at the club we were playing at. And we hired him to be a second drummer. Huh. Wow. So that's a big, like, were you inspired by the Allman Brothers or something? That's what everybody wonders, you know. I don't think we thought about it that way so much as it sounded good. Yeah, well, to me it always seems odd.

But, you know, but I guess it's cool to have two drummers. It was, very powerful. For me it was, I love the Allman Brothers, so speaking for myself, I saw that and liked the concept. And the Dead does it too, right? I can't think of too many other ones. Can you? No, as a matter of fact, I can't think of any.

Doesn't mean there isn't. I just haven't heard about them. Yeah, yeah. And the big hit was which one on heard about it yeah yeah and with the big hit was which one on jesus just all right was that the big hit listen to the music yeah that's kind of what opened the door and then hearing that on at that time in my volkswagen beetle driving down the road and hearing on the radio it's like holy shit we're on the fucking radio it's great it's great right, it was a big deal.

It really was. And then that got followed up with, I think, the song you mentioned, and maybe Rockin' Down the Highway. I'm not really sure what came out after that. Oh, yeah, Rockin' Down the Highway. That's right. Yeah, it's crazy.

So this is a big record. It's so funny because I once talked to Fogarty, and I asked him about production. But I mean, they're a little before you guys, right? Yeah, they were. So it's funny because I said, they're a little before you guys, right? Yeah, they were. So it's funny because I said, well, how do you, because those Creedence songs, they held up, you know, in a weird way. If you listen to the records, they're very simple, but they hold up. They're catchy.

Yeah, they're catchy. Simplistic and catchy. And clean, you know, the production. I said, what are you thinking of when you produce a record? He goes, I think about an AM speaker and a dashboard of a car. You know, I've seen people mix that way, so I totally believe that. Like when you sing, you put that up front. When you play guitar, you put that up front.

Makes sense, right? Yeah, it does. But that was post what you guys, I mean, you guys did pretty kind of a bigger production. It got bigger as each album went on. Not huge, but I mean, it got added to it. The sound, yeah. You know, it was the advent of FM radio. Sure.

Oh, that's right. And suddenly stereo sound became relevant. You know, people had stereophonic systems they'd listen to. And prior to that, it had been just basically mono. Oh, yeah. Monoral listening. That's right, the FM radio trip. You guys are right at the beginning of that.

So now you'd be driving in your car and you'd you'd be listening to that was a big deal it was the bay area they kind of spawned all that basically that's right yeah and it was whatever's like donahue and dusty streets and all those people man well it was the difference between hey these guys and what's going on you Yeah, AM radio was still certainly a prevalent format, but FM and albums, you know, in other words, when your album came out, they played the whole album on the radio, and people bought more albums

than they did singles after a while. That was the shift. It had been the other way. You know, people were buying singles and not so much albums and then suddenly people are buying albums and less less singles yeah did you guys think in terms of albums when you recorded i mean was that we thought in terms of songs yeah that's right but i think we were thinking in terms of of we wanted every song to be, you know,

As good as it could be. As good as it could be, so. And when did you start adding guys? This one, what's, this album, The Captain and Me,

that was another big record, the third record. Same lineup. Same lineup. Four guys. Yep. Because I'm five. Five guys. Five.

Two drummers. Yeah. Can't forget that. We tried some synth stuff and everything. We kind of grew, you know, and also the touring thing had kind of started to blow up. And China Grove, that was the one. That's the song that, like, I just remember pounding. It was ubiquitous.

When I was like, what year was that? 75? 73. 73, so I was like 11, and it was like everywhere. Are you trying to make us feel better? Yeah, a little bit. You guys are still going. But China Grove, when you came up with that song,

you were sort of like, oh, fuck yeah, because that guitar thing. You know, some people may hear that and say, the only song I ever wrote that I thought, this is a single, was Listen to Music. Really? China Grove, it's a great rock tune, cool. But I didn't think it was a single. It's like Long Train Run. I didn't think that was a single with listening to music. Really? China Grove, it's a great rock tune. Cool.

But I didn't think it was a single. It's like Long Train Run. I didn't think that was a single, because it was. It was a jam. Yeah. And when those songs, you get them,

well, Don Landy, I give credit for putting the echo on that. Yeah. It wasn't my idea. Yeah. And it was a neat thing. He's the producer? He was the engineer.

Oh, yeah. And Teddy was great helping all of us on all songs. Yeah. Vocals, drums, harmonies, all of it. And so the touring starts. When do you become like a huge act? When do you know like, holy shit? You know, it started in 72, but I'd say 73 is when we really started really hanging.

We never saw home. Yeah? No, you were out all the time. And if you weren't out, you were in L.A. doing another album every year. And did you like it? Yeah, it was fun. I mean, it was kind of a blur, but it was fun.

Really? Did you end up managing to have a family and whatnot? No. No. No. Nah, at least I sure did, man. Yeah. It's a little crazy for having a family.

I guess. I mean, you know, guys do it. I mean, I don't know how they turn out, but yeah. So when does things start to sort of shift? Like how come, like on Stampede, when do you add Baxter or why? What happens? Well, you know, it's been just, you know, it's an ever-evolving thing. We added the other drummer and then the guy that we added left. Back to one?

It would have been one, but the day he left, we added another drummer. Okay. Because he was around, and we liked the- He was a really good drummer as well. At that point, we liked the two drummers. And he sang. Yeah. And so we had a friend that was a great drummer and a singer, which was really an additional thing. So that was Keith Knutson.

Yeah. And he came in and took that was Keith Knutson. Yeah. And he came in and took Michael Hossack's place. Right. And we continued on and then went on to do Stampede. What were once Vices Are Now Habits was the next record, I think, after The Captain and Me. And that's Blackwater. That's one of them, Blackwater.

Was that the biggest one for you up to that point? after The Captain and Me, and then we went on. And that's Blackwater. That's one of the Blackwater, yeah. Was that the biggest one at that time, or for you up to that point? Because I just thought that's a hit. Biggest single? Yeah, biggest single. I don't know, they were all pretty much, you know, sustaining. They had a lot of top ten records,

but that was the first number one. Then Jeff was not really a part of the band for a long time. He just would, he was a friend of ours yeah um by virtue of just coming around you know we had done a lot of touring with steely dan early on uh in our career like gosh in 1971 yeah we were out in the road with, here's the lineup. The Doobie, let's see who opened. Marshall Tucker opened the shows. Then Steely Dan played right after them. Then the Doobie Brothers and then Savoy Brown.

And that was the bill. And we traveled around doing, you know, eight or ten shows with that. With that crew? With that thing. And we were driving on a- Winnebago? Winnebago. Doing this tour.

Each van had their own Winnebago or you were all in Winnebago? I don't know how the other guys. Some of the guys flew. Some of the guys were in cars. But that's how you went. Savoy Brown was the headliner? They were the headliner, yeah.

Wow. Well, he's eight to 10 shows. That goes by pretty fast. Yeah. They had a song- I love them. I like that group. Tell Mama. Oh, Tell Mama. Yeah. Well, no, eight to 10 shows. That goes by pretty fast. Yeah. They had a song. I love them. I like that group. Tell Mama.

Oh, Tell Mama. Yeah. Well, no, they have some good, there's some good stuff. That was kind of a hit for them at the time. They're British, aren't they? Yeah. Yeah, there's a couple. And they were great.

They were really good. A couple of good records, yeah. But that was a great show, you know. And that's where you met all those guys. And so we met guys in Steely Dan. Yeah. And then, you know, right after that, they started having, you know. Differences of opinion?

What was a back, back jack, do it again. Yeah, yeah. Was a first hit and then really in the years. But anyway, we became friends with all those guys. And Jeff just kind of stayed in touch. And I had him in to play on a steel guitar on The Captain and Me. Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.

That album. And so then he just would show up, you know, we'd be playing around town and he would show up and come in and we'd say, you want to sit in on something? So he'd come in and he'd play. And then...

Amazing guitar player? Yes, he was. Incredible guitar player. Yeah, yeah. And it was kind of... It was neat because, you know, Moby Grape fans... Yeah.

So we have three guitar players. You'd be surprised at the legions of Moby Grape fans that play in my... Suddenly have three guitar players like Moby Grape. Oh, okay. We didn't know whether we were...

The Allman Brothers or Moby Grape. We had three... And the Moby Grape fans came around because they were just excited? No, I don't know about that. I'm just saying everybody, even Michael McDonald was a fan of Moby Grape. And I don't mean that way it sounds, but I mean, it's just diverse kinds of musical styles that people have. And they all know about Moby Grape. Well, I think, well, because I think that Moby Grape was like, you most mortals, most people who aren't civilians, most civilians who aren't musicians,

like I think they really defined that fucking sound of that time. They did. Like, you know, and it all gets put on the dead and a couple other people and they kind of get lost. But you listen to that big Moby Grape album, it's like, holy shit. That was it, man.

Everybody I knew played the grooves off that day. Yeah, man. Myself included. Yeah, it was great. It was a great record. So anyway, that was kind of Jeff. Jeff was that third guitar player that we... That's great. And he was around for a few records, huh?

Yeah. Yeah, we... He would go on the road with us as well. Again, he wasn't really a member of the band for a while, and then we went in to do Stampede. Yeah. And then we sort of brought him into the fold. Made it official.

Yeah, and he participated in the making of that record, and then that was kind of his advent into full time. Full Steely, or full Doobie Brother. Now, like, you guys all managing, no one got all fucked up on drugs and shit? Everybody did something. Some people did more than others. How's that for big

but but it didn't seem like uh it wasn't a tragic band it all seemed you know what i mean like i don't remember dark stories about the doobie brothers oh you know yeah divine dark i guess i don't you know i i think any band i don't care who it is, that goes out on the road, and there's a lot of different personalities in the band, a lot of different players. But when you're on the road all the time, there's a release that you need to seek someplace, man, to get away. Because after a while, you don't have a home. In essence, you have a house someplace,

but that's your home. Yeah, I guess so, yeah. It gets a little nuts. Now, was there any major point where the band was about to fall apart well in 75 i left the band not because i wanted to i left the band because i had a bleeding ulcer and i got shipped out to a hospital in la to get over that and that that caused a big which album was that that was stampede that was the first tour for stampede i want to say so you you know i was you were out i feel i was out for that tour for sure and yeah i was out for

god i don't know a year i guess oh and uh yeah they brought mike in to or not they actually uh jeff called mike yeah they had been in steely Dandy. Baxter, yeah. Mike McDonald. Yeah. And brought him in to play keys and do backgrounds. And it turns out he had this Treasure Trophy. I should let him tell you this. I wasn't there. Treasure Trophy songs.

And that's when they ended up with the album, Take It to the Streets. And that changed the whole sound in a way, didn't it? It did. And you guys still pals? We're touring right now. With him? Yeah. How democratic is the thing?

When did you come back? On which record did you come back on? I came back and toured on Taking to the Streets, the tour. Yeah. And the spring tour in 76. And we had a ball. We had that Memphis Horns out. Oh, yeah.

And everybody. It was just a great tour. It was a lot of fun. Wake, when somebody like Mike comes in, it changes the dynamic of the band. But is it a democracy or who's leading the thing? I don't know if there ever was a real

true leader. In some sense, it really never has been structured that way. It's more just a natural evolvement of how things go. Yeah, the phrase, whatever works, comes to mind. Yeah, yeah.

And you just have good road managers, and you guys just do what you do. We had some road managers. We burn out a number of road managers. Good, bad, and otherwise. Yeah. That's the worst position for... It is? Why? They're in the hot seat all the time. Yeah, yeah's the worst position for... It is? Why? They just, they're in the hot seat all the time, you know.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. They got to deal with all these different personalities. That's really hard, a hard gig. Yeah. And then, like, you did, like, which record, like, Minute by Minute was the, that was, I remember that record being everywhere. It was a big record. Was that the biggest one?

I don't know. Yeah, it probably sold, I don't know. Yeah, it probably sold. I don't know what it sold, but I think it probably sold more than previous albums. Yeah? Most of our albums that were successful albums have sold probably equally, give or take, more or less. Like a lot of them are double platinum.

What happens is you get a certain record that gets played in the radio a lot of them are like double platinum what what happens is you know you you get a certain record that gets played in the radio a lot and then boom you sell a lot of records and then over time you know people revisit the end and they go well i love that record but i don't have this one and they'll buy that record so suddenly you know, your Toulouse Street, which was arguably our first, you know, success. It was our first successful record. It sells quite a bit more. It's funny how things, you know. When you get a new hit record, it kind of livens up the catalog.

We just put out an album last October, I guess. And suddenly, a couple of other albums were back on the charts. Yeah. Just it's how that feeds that. And you guys just- And things are very different now as far as how things go with sales and all that. So that's- I think people pay-

I think it's a good thing. I think people pay, you know, I know people in the music industry pay as much attention to the Apple chart or the, you know, the Amazon chart as they do to Billboard these days. Yeah, certainly. Any streaming platforms. But after like minute by minute, did you feel like, was there like a period where, I mean, you could always go out and play, I imagine, because you had such a great catalog, but was there a period there where you didn't feel like the records were doing as well or that? We never worried about that. I mean, if there's a place you can play

and people are going to come and see you. So most of it was 500 out of 5,000. Who cares, you know? Yeah. And you could always sell tickets. Yeah, the band always sold tickets. I left the band in 77 and took off, did a couple of solo albums.

How'd they do? First one did okay. The second one I might as well not have bothered, but not because it wasn't good. They said, this sounds stupid if I say it, but this is what I got told anyway. It sounds too much like the Doobie Brothers. I said, well, fuck, what do you want?

I'm a Doobie Brother. At any rate, and then we all got back together for a benefit. Keith Knudsen sort of organized us all. And that was for the Vietnam Vets, and we did that at the Hollywood Bowl. And everybody that ever played in the band that was still breathing was on stage. No kidding.

Just about, yeah. What year was that? That was 87. And. What year was that? That was 87. And how many people was that? You got four drummers, you got four guitar players, you got two keyboard players, only one bass player. That's crazy. Yeah, Willie didn't join in.

15 or 16 people, probably. And then we took that on the road for about 10 shows or something, and then some of us went to Russia and played at that Glassnose thing oh yeah and another couple of guys went off and did a country album thing and

by the time 89 rolled around we made another album which was Cycles and it started everything up again and we haven't quit since

who was the members in Cycles? close to the same band that was on Toulouse Street essentially it. It was Pat and myself, Tyron, John Hartman, and Mike Hosack. Wow. So you just come full circle every time. It's sort of like in spirals. You just end up... How many people...

Something fun to kind of revisit that. And when you make records now, I mean, what's the process of writing and everything? Is it the same as it ever was or do you just do it because you can or do you like still write, like making new music? I would say the most recent one we did that Pat referred to,

which is called Liberté. Liberté, yeah. It's probably the most different way of going about writing that we've ever done. In essence, every song was co-written. Okay. It used to be that everybody wrote their own songs

and everybody would come in and come up with parts and stuff. But this was all co-written with John Shanks. And he produced it. Yeah. And it was done really rapidly. Yeah. Not in a bad way. I don't mean that in a bad way.

It's just a whole new way of doing things. Do you like the record? I do. I thought it came out pretty good. Nowadays, records are kind of, who told me this? They're like posters for tours, unless you're blowing up really huge, a gigantic one. But I mean, it's like, it used to be that the tour was to pump the record and get everybody out buying and stuff.

Now, the record is to pump the tour. Right, right. 180 degree change. Interesting. So the tour, you'd make money, but it was primarily to sell the record. In the old days, yes. Yeah, yeah. Who were your opening acts as you kind of evolved that have gone on to big things?

We kind of were all over the map. Oh, yeah? Yeah. Huey Lewis. Oh, yeah. T-Rex. Really? When did you tour T-Rex?

72. Really? Yeah. How was that? It was interesting. Talk about bands that were different from each other, but we learned something from it. What'd you learn from them? Well, it was a different style of music.

It was kind of glam rock, I guess is the name for it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we were more of a... We got more glamorous. Did you? We started dressing a little wilder. Really? Gotta do something with our hair, fellas. Yeah. That's the name for it. And we were more of a... We got more glamorous. Did you? We started dressing a little wilder. Gotta do something with our hair, fellas. That's right.

No glitter on the face or anything like that. Yeah. But they were fun to hang out with. They're good guys. Yeah. It's sad that guy died so young. So I started to say who grew to get really big that opened for us. Huey was one.

Leonard Skinner opened shows for us. Well, that seems to be the time. Yeah, yeah. Do you like those guys? Yeah. Steely Dan opened for us. Sure. Kep Moe opened for us.

Kep Moe, sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You probably don't even remember that. Do you remember Kep Moe opening for us? I don't remember Kep Moe opening for us. All by himself. Just went out there? Just a guitar.

I remember playing with him at the Memphis In May thing, but I don't remember Cat Mo opening. All by himself. Just went out there? With his guitar. That's right. I remember playing with him at the Memphis Invade thing, but I don't remember that. Oh, my God. He was so good. Yeah, yeah. Who is this guy? I don't even think he had a record yet. Wow.

Did you do a lot of those stadium things with the nine bands, ten bands, like those huge- Oh, yeah. Sure. I went to one. I don't think you were on it, though. I went to one up in Mile High Stadium. I think it was like the Cars, Ted Nugent, UFO, the Rockets, and Heart. So that would have been a little later.

That's a pretty wild combo. That's up-tempo. Up being not up-tempo. The Cars. Energy-wise. The Cars opened for us. It was hard to follow some of the bands, to be honest with you. I bet.

Because they were- Little Feet. Well, that makes- Following Little Feet was not a great idea. Or Tower of Power, somebody like that. Tower of Power is a like that Tower of Power is a lot of work those guys

powerful those bands had hits that were you know pretty monumental even at that time yeah

as a foreigner you know sure yeah we did a whole year before cold as ice

you know when that first song came out they were opening for you on their first tour yeah and

Heart yeah you know big songs that they're opening for us and Heart. Yeah. You know, big songs that they're opening for us and we didn't really, you know, maybe we had some hits

at that time, I don't know. Sure you did. But, you know, they were big bands, so, you know,

you're, you know. But like, were you guys backstage going, ah, fuck. Oh yeah.

How are we going to do, are we going to get out there? We got to rock. You've heard about The Riot House right You know all about What's that The Riot House

Yeah the Hyatt Sure Yeah it's right next to The Comedy Store Just think of that On the road Yeah that's it In those days

Yeah that's the way it was Oh yeah That's crazy What about like Did you ever like Did you ever do a shows Like with Zeppelin or anything I don't know

No well I was in We played with the Stones Oh yeah Would've had like a big thing, the Stones. Was that fun? Most, when you hear big names like that, generally it's a large venue. Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, huge.

But that's so, it's so wild that like, you know, that I can't imagine what it'd be like to be backstage waiting to go on and just see somebody like just blow the place up. You're like, let's just give it an hour. Let's just take a rest, clean the pallet, and let them wait for me. Did you change your set list ever

to sort of follow people? Oh yeah. We made all the power stuff and end up front. Exactly. Better hope up with China Grove. Right. And a few others I can think of, yeah. Like what are the other ones that you'd be like,

fuck them without you. Yeah, move those closers up top. That's right. Did it work generally? It helped. It helped, yeah. At least it wasn't a big drop-off when you got out on the stage.

You didn't want that. Oh, my God. So now who's touring now? Who's in the band now? Like who's the gang? Mike's with you. Myself, Tom, Mike. Yeah, Mike.

You guys are the only... John McPhee. Yeah, we're the only original original. Yeah. But, you know, John was with us from what? 80, what? 79? Is that when he came in?

John joined in 78. Yeah. Okay. And then played with us until we kind of went on hiatus around 82, 83. And then when we got back together in 89, we went on for a couple years. And I think John came in around the early 90s. Yeah. Yeah.

And he's been with us ever since. And what are the, so how are the audiences? What kind of rooms are you playing? We're playing mostly, you know, sheds, what they call sheds, like 25,000 people. 25,000? Yeah. That's a lot. Well, not every night.

And we're also playing arenas. I would say. Some are 10,000, some are 15,000. Wait, 25,000? Yeah. Not that many. Not every night, but yeah. That's called a shed?

That's the name they use, yeah. Well, what it is is they're amphitheaters, indoor-outdoor amphitheaters. Oh, I see. Okay. All right. So some of them are, oh, yeah, okay. I get it. You got the first part is covered, and then it's open long.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a lot. And who's opening for you now? No one. No one. We're playing two and a half hours. Really? Yeah. And what's the crowds like? and a half hours. Really? Yeah.

And what's the crowds like? They've been great. Yeah? Yeah. And you've got the whole spectrum of this band. Yeah. You've got from almost the front end, maybe not all. There's one song off that first album.

After that, that's gone. But it's like every album is kind of represented from that period all the way to Michael's period. And Michael's playing on everything, singing on on everything and we're playing on everything that he did yeah it's like and it works yeah and i guess like you've seen multi-generations audience like you know definitely great yeah you see some kids you see some yeah about grandparents and you see some grandparents yeah three generations wow isn't unusual do you have take time off

do you have fun and shit we're not touring like we did back in the 70s let's put it that way sure

so you guys we've been off for five months right now but that was due to a lot of stuff this is a pretty intensive touring schedule

yeah this time around simply because we you know been we had to postpone It's a pretty intensive touring schedule this time around. Simply because we had to postpone a lot of shows during this pandemic. So we're back to revisiting those venues. Yeah. And you have a nicer Winnebago now? Matter of fact, now that you mention it, yeah.

It's even longer. Big bus. Big bus big bus is that you do it the bus yeah we're busing and uh what kind of guitar is you playing uh i've got kind of these put together uh stratocasters mostly yeah that i'm playing yeah from parts from schecter parts? From parts, yeah. Parts guitars. You got a guy that does that for you? Yeah, well, I've been playing

these guitars that actually my old tech back in the 70s built three guitars for me and I'm still playing them. Really? And my present tech

also is a guitar builder. I'm playing a couple of his guitars. Oh, that's cool. So they're all, you know, really his guitars. Oh, that's cool. So they're all really handmade guitars. You like that Strat sound. But I like the Strat sound. What about you?

What are you playing? I was a Gibson guy for the longest time. Any model, every shape and size. And played Les Pauls and SGs. Sure. Did you have one of those triple pickup Les Pauls? No. None of those? I never even wanteds. Sure. Did you have one of those triple pickup West Pauls? No. None of those?

I never even wanted one. Good. For some reason, I associated that with the Platters. And somehow, as much as I thought they were a great singing group, I just didn't. And the Chick used to play a whole night. A triple pickup one? Yeah. Frampton played one.

He does, yeah. The black triple pickup West Paul. The Phoenix? Yeah. Yeah. So you just. I'm a PRS guy now. That's pretty much all I play.

Oh yeah? Yeah. What'd you do with all your Gibsons? Got them in a... Some of them are still around. I've still got the one I cut, listen to music with, and I played that thing for years on the road.

It's still with me. What about China Grove? Who's that at the beginning of that? That's me. That was on an SG, and... You like those P90s? I like P90s.

I like really dirty. P90s are on Les Paul, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I also like Firebirds, and that was another great90s I like P90s I like really dirty P90s are on Les Paul yeah yeah yeah yeah but I also like Firebirds and that was another great guitar I know

really great and you look around if you look through pictures of people even you see I don't care if you're on Instagram or something you'll find a lot of people

playing those they're back with the mini Hupbuckers some are I got turned on to them by Johnny Winters he was like all about those

and and I actually had one that I got by Johnny Winters. He was all about those. And I actually had one that I got from Johnny Winters. Oh, yeah? Unfortunately, it got stolen. It was a great guitar. Damn. I had it for years. Was it one of the wood ones? They made some white ones that are kind of cool.

Was it one of just a straight? This was a wood tone, yeah. With those small pickups you mentioned. So he went into, Johnny just ended up doing a lot of acoustic blues, like that steel guitar stuff, right? Like Dobro shit later on. He might have. I kind of missed out on that.

Oh, yeah? Yeah. He was a good player. He was a killer player. He was wild. He was wild, too. He was awesome. He was a wild killer player, yeah.

So the book goes all through the stuff and all through the whole career, ends up where we ended up today. Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. Are you happy with it? I am. Yeah.

We had fun doing it. It was, uh, we, you know, we didn't anticipate having to write quite as much, you know, end up having to go in and rewrite.

Yeah. Do some homework. Well, just not on the last one, but I would, I would read things, you know, we kind of tell the story to Chris and he would help us put it together.

Yeah, the book, yeah. I would read it and go, well, that's not exactly the story, number one, and that's not the way I would have said it. So then I would go in and... Oh, you're on top of it. Yeah, just rewrite pretty much everything and then send it to him and he'd go, well, that works. And then, you know... There was a little filter that it went through. You guys? Yeah. But more than... The NAV he'd go, well, that works. And then, you know. There was a little filter that it went through.

You guys? Yeah. But more than anything. The nah filter? I don't know. More than anything, he was a great catalyst for remembering things. Yeah. And. Very helpful in that.

You know, just getting the ball moving. Sure. And he did write, you know, help us write some of the stories and stuff. Sure. What's a high point, do you think when when you look at this book when it was the the well you got in the rock and roll hall of fame that must have been amazing that was it was you know it would have been even more amazing if we could have been there to play live like everybody else got to do you didn't get you no because of covid nobody could do it oh it was just this last year 2020 is when it happened so

oh they got they to bring you back. I agree. What would you play? Something good. I don't know, man. Something that gets a reaction. You got to open strong there. Yeah.

You follow the whole history of rock and roll. We did a virtual version. We did it all. We didn't Zoom it or anything, but we did tape, not tape, but recorded stuff at the houses. Yeah, I would love to go back and play. I think that'd be awesome. I wonder how many people didn't get to play. They should have them back.

Everybody that was nominated. Everybody that was nominated. Yeah, yeah. For two years or just the one year? Just the one year. I think just the one year. Yeah, they started it up again the next year. All right, fellas. Well, I hope the book sells and have fun on the road.

Thank you. It's good talking to you, man. Likewise. I appreciate it. have fun on the road. Thank you. It's good talking to you, man. Likewise. Thanks for taking the time. There you go. What a show. What a music show. Long Train Runnin'.

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