WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1331 - Sandra Oh

Episode Date: May 16, 2022

Sandra Oh spent much of her career believing certain opportunities weren't going to come her way because they're just not afforded to Asian actors. Sandra and Marc talk about what she found in herself to overcome that sense of externally imposed limitations and how she built a body of work including Grey's Anatomy, Sideways, Killing Eve and The Chair. Sandra also explains how she's drawing inspiration from John C. Reilly in this next phase of her life as an actor. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Are you self-employed? Don't think you need business insurance? Think again. Business insurance from Zensurance is a no-brainer for every business owner because it provides peace of mind. A lot can go wrong. A fire, cyber attack, stolen equipment, or an unhappy customer suing you. That's why you need insurance. Don't let the, I'm too small for this mindset, hold you back from protecting yourself. Zensurance provides customized business insurance policies starting at just $19 per month. Visit Zensurance today to get a free quote. Zensurance. Mind your business. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel.

To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Lock the gates! all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck nicks what the fuck buddies what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast sandra oh is on the show today. Sandra Oh, you know from Grey's Anatomy, Sideways, the Netflix limited series, The Chair, among other things. And she just wrapped the final season of Killing Eve. And she's a fan of the show. So I'm excited that we got to talk. I've been away and I've been getting progressively more emotional and I'm flying. And I watched, uh, that movie with, uh, Tim Blake Nelson again, that, that old Henry,

which is, I think even on second watching the turn is worth it. And, uh, Stephen Dorff and Nelson are just astounding. But then I watched the intern with Robert De Niro and Anne Hathaway, who I still seem to love. And I've watched that movie many times. And I was just bawling my eyes out to the point where the flight attendant was like, are you okay? And I'm like, yeah, yeah, I'm just watching this movie and I don't know why it's hitting me. And then Rene Russo's in it. And then I realized it was, today is the anniversary of Lynn Shelton's death. And I don't know that if I was avoiding it or, you know, I knew it a few days ago, but I just put it out of my head.

And then, like, I'm just, you know, crying on a plane at a movie, you know, which is where it'll come out. And it's been two years ago today since Lynn passed away. And, you know, I think about it every day, obviously. And when the grief comes, it comes. And I talk about it on stage as well, in terms of processing grief and figuring out how to get through it. But today is the day and I miss her. And I know a lot of people miss her, her family. And I always seem to put myself somewhere down the list of people that deserve to miss her or something. It's weird, but that's my own problem. A lot of people had a whole life with her.

I had a window of time and a possible future. And the fact that Rene Russo struck me as looking so much like her in that movie, whether she does or not, while I was flying on the plane, I was really kind of reflecting back on the energy of what Lynn was like and remembering the idea of may her memory be a blessing or however the exact phrasing of that is,

I guess it is in that I'm grateful that I knew her and I had the time I spent with her. But a lot of times the memory is just a burden on your heart that I guess eases with time or you get put into perspective or you maybe you can think about the good times which I do but I don't know where the blessing part comes in I don't know where loss becomes a blessing I guess the time I spent with her and when I look at myself or feel myself or think about her presence or what she did in my life and but I think about all the people that loved her and it's just, it's horrendous. It's fucking horrendous

and nothing could be less unusual than someone dying a little more unusual when it's tragic, but not really. I'm still constantly framing it. There's also some sort of strange guilt involved, you know, survival guilt, that I do everything I could guilt, you know. My heart goes out to everyone that knew her and it's a tremendous loss.

And today is the day it happened. This is the anniversary of the amazing Lynn Shelton's passing. And it's a sad day. So I had a great time out on the road in the places I went. I might have discussed it a little bit, but I can't really say enough just how I really enjoyed Tulsa. I was there about the right amount of time, I think, probably. But Pittsburgh also, it seemed like a very livable, beautiful city. Pittsburgh is a beautiful city. I went to the Andy Warhol Museum, which really kind of changed my perspective about him. Had some good food, met some good people. The show was great at that Carnegie Homestead weird place. Didn't feel as haunted,

and it was a great show. And then I drove to Cleveland. And again, that Cleveland, Ohio Theater there, that was one of the best shows I've ever had in my life. I don't know why. I had freedom of mind. The acoustics were near perfect. Detroit, too. The hotel I stayed at in Detroit was spectacular. There was an old fire headquarters, and it was great. Detroit was, you know, by the time I got to Detroit

and did that show at the Royal Oak Music Theater, you know, I was pretty strung out. I'd been away from home a long time, and as I said earlier, you know, without me really knowing it, I was converging on the anniversary of someone I loved, her death. So I guess all this stuff, you know, and the world starts to play. I mean, I'm a little exhausted. And all I can think to do is stay in the present and go on a hike but but I did do some good shows and I did feel that community of my audience who have sort of evolved into a kind of amazing bunch of people grown-up people you know people that know how to listen thoughtful

people creative people sensitive people that's enabling me to do work that I've never done before. Really. It's a type of work that, you know, I could say that I'm just doing what I always have done, but it's not really, I'm in a different place. And my audience is in a different place, even then, you know, before COVID. And obviously people are very appreciative, but, but something's happening on stage too. I'm interesting to see how it'll refine and, and it keeps evolving. Even in Cleveland, I did some new stuff and I don't know how to fix all the things that need fixing or if they'll ever be fixed. And it weighs heavy on me because it's not a burden of guilt. It's just that, you know, all I can do is what I do on stage and what I do

here and, you know, give to charity and try to behave properly and be respectful to people. But, you know, I do run it all through me. It all runs through me. I'm not going to speculate about, you know, what's happening in the world. It's very clear to me what's happening and not much of it is good. And oddly, most feelings aren't great. But I hope we're all hanging in there. I just wanted to thank the people of Pittsburgh, Cleveland, and Detroit. The people that came out. They were really great shows. They were, you know, all these shows that I'm doing right now are the best shows I've ever done.

Which is good. Because it may be the last time for all of us. Like, I know I get heavy hearted and I got to be honest with you. Somebody said something very funny to me and to my, uh, my friend, Sam Lipside. We've, we're developing this show for FX and hopefully, you know, we're working on a second script and, um, they haven't signed off on the series yet, but're in it and we did notes on the the sort of uh story for the script and uh one of the executives over there at fx uh so one of the fx executives nick grad who is like the big shot over there the big guy we're talking we're just doing general notes and he's, I don't know how to explain it,

but we just need to get it from bleak to dark. And I'm like, oh, my God. I got to ask him if I can name my special that. From bleak to dark. I'm like, that's my specialty. That's what I do. That is the crux of who I am. We can totally get it from bleak to dark i gotta ask

him that's got to be the name of the special right bleak to dark yeah that's yeah that'll be who's gonna see that title and not be like that's gonna be hilarious well anyways that was uplifting in a way i enjoyed it in a way that i like it. I can just, if we can just get it from bleak to dark, people will be all right. That's all I'm trying to do. That's all I'm trying to do with everything I do is just get it from bleak to dark. All right. I hope I'm succeeding. I am most days. Yeah. Here's something. I was at a, I was at a store, a restaurant, just eating a salad, a salad bar restaurant in downtown Pittsburgh. Hello Deli, I think it was called, or Hello something. I think it was a little chain where, you know, you can kind of walk down and tell them

what to put in your salad. But this place, it was downtown, so it was like a, you had the weird juxtaposition. It was sort of like a salad bar methadone clinic. There's definitely people that were spending the day there. And I'm just eating a salad and two guys come up to me, young guys, looked pretty tough. Didn't look like Marc Maron fans. The one dude goes, are you Marc Maron? I go, I am. He goes, wow, yo, can I take your picture? And I'm like yeah and then the uh the other guy goes hey man sorry to bother you and then the the first guy immediately goes i'm not fucking sorry and i'm like hey you know i kind of felt like saying i'm right here uh but but i did the pic and it turns out the guy was a boxer and you know i put my little dukes up and you, I don't know why that's a humbling story or whether I handled it well, but the honesty of it, the blunt honesty of it.

And somebody pointed it out that that is the two examples of maleness right there. Those are the two versions. So that was a that was a nice Pittsburgh moment. I thought it was a nice Pittsburgh moment. I was excited to have Sandra Oh on. She was excited to be on. You can see all the stuff she's been on, you know, Grey's Anatomy, The Chair. She just wrapped the final season of Killing Even. It was just time to do it. That was really the reason for it. We'd had it on the books before,

and now it was just time to do it. So this is me talking to Sandra. It's hockey season and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But ice tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice? Yes, we deliver those.

Goal tenders, no. But chicken tenders, yes. Because those are groceries and we deliver those too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, alcohol, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Are you self-employed? Don't think you need business insurance? Think again. Business insurance from Zensurance is a no-brainer for every business owner because it provides peace of mind. A lot can go wrong.

A fire, cyber attack, stolen equipment, or an unhappy customer suing you. That's why you need insurance. Don't let the, I'm too small for this mindset, hold you back from protecting yourself. Zensurance provides customized business insurance policies starting at just $19 per month. Visit Zensurance today to get a free quote. Zensurance. Mind your business. You all right? Things all right? Yeah, things are all right. What are you doing, like, right now? I'm prepping a film that I'm doing with Nora Lump, Awkwafina. Oh, yeah.

We're doing a sister comedy. Really? Yeah. Whose film is it? Jessica Yu is our director. Jen D'Angelo is our writer. And it's a Gloria Sanchez production. Huh.

Yeah. I don't know a lot of those people, but it sounds like a good thing. It's a good groupchez production. Huh. Yeah. I don't know a lot of those people, but it sounds like a good thing. It's a good group of people. Yeah. And for me, I was like, I just want to do comedy. Yeah. I just want to do comedy. And it's like, I mean, I don't want to talk about it, but it's like broad.

Yeah. And I was just like, let's go broad. Let's go. Big? Let's try and like fail big. Yeah. I mean, let's not try and fail big yeah like i mean let's not try and feel big like what's it what does broad mean though like just uh like um goofy no you know what i

gotta tell you i wanna i wanna try i wanna try and and uh work up to john c reilly man i mean i just think i can't get i can't get enough of that actor, just watching his career throughout. And he just has an unbelievable ability of understanding where he is in and what he is in. Yeah. So the fact that he can turn broadness and get it real deep down, and then suddenly you don't know why you're feeling so much with the character. Because in some ways, he was allowing you to laugh at the character. Oh, interesting. But then he like switches it around

and you're because he has a lot of gravitas but in all the oh I see what you mean in all those big weird comedies yeah like the walk

the fake music bio yeah for sure that yeah and then you know the show that he's doing right now where he's

the HBO show about the Lakers oh yeah is he good I haven't watched it he's great he's great no it's like he's uh the hbo show um about the lakers oh yeah is he good i haven't watched it he's great he's great no it's like he's great so i'm like ah you know sometimes i try and figure out i wonder what you do too like who is interesting to me you know what are they doing yeah how are they doing it like i don't know how they i don't know i don't know how anybody does anything but it's it's uh it's the inspiration of like, you're doing something.

Your hair is crazy. It's crazy, blah, blah, blah. You're in a crazy costume. And suddenly I'm- Connected as a person to this ridiculous person. It's because the character's got some sort of heart and soul to it. Yeah, I think so. And I think that's, I think it's just, you know, you need a really strong muscle that can be like a really.

An acting muscle? Yeah, a thick rubber band. Are you conscious of that? Oh, for sure. Really? What's your question? What does it mean? Because I'm always a guy like I got to do a guest spot on Reservation Dogs.

Like next week or the week after and i i understand what the character is but i don't know how to get there unless i can picture the guy in the situation and make the guy me somehow yeah yeah but like i when you say like when like i understand what you're saying about john c reilly but i wouldn't know how to do that on purpose do you know what i mean like do you no no for sure i'd say it seems like you're saying about John C. Reilly, but I wouldn't know how to do that on purpose. Do you know what I mean? Like, do you? Yeah, no, no, for sure. It seems like you're doing it.

Well, it's like, how do you approach your character? You know what I mean? In a very broad way, inside out or outside in. You know what I mean? It seems to me, you know, that it's for you. It's inside out because it's got to be kind of based on something that is comfortable where you can feel honest all the time. Yeah, right, because I can't do big weird characters. I bet you you could. Yeah, but I have to get past the idea of embarrassment.

Well, yeah, that's a part of the job. I know. It's my entire life. It's the only reason I do comedy. I think Harry Shearer told me, he said, when you do comedy, it's to try to control why people laugh at you. I'm going to get it first. Yeah.

Jimmy, I'm going to get it first. Yeah. And I'm going to tell you to look this way. Right. Well, I thought you were hilarious in the chair. Thank you. It's so funny. Thank you.

It was funny. Yeah, but you were doing the John C. Reilly thing. Oh, that's a great compliment. You were. I mean, it was seamless, and it was a comedic part. Yeah. But you didn't feel it being written as a comedy. You know, there was a certain point.

I don't know what scene it was. I was talking to Amanda Peet, the creator, showrunner. She was in there. And I was like, oh, my God, you wrote a drama. Right. What am I doing? You're doing a comedy because you're actually writing a drama. Yeah.

And I think ultimately that's like the material you know what i mean you just kind of go uh wider or narrower based on like the material yeah i for me i always feel like you gotta find uh or i'm only i'm interested in having being able to find comedy somewhere in the character well right well they it seems like in a show like that, a lot of the comedy was you had these very specific types around, the oldies, and you had Duplass, who was a disaster. So you were kind of, your comedy, you were funny yourself, but you're sort of a straight man to a bunch of weirdos.

It's a good situation. No, it's great. Yeah, you're just the center of this chaotic bunch of doddering people and duplass. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I thought that the very top of the show is a pratfall. Oh, yeah, that was funny. And we actually shot that first. And I just knew that it's like, I got to land this chair.

I got to land this chair. How many times did you do it? Because I thought that immediately. It's like the timing was so good because there was the break and then the fuck. Yeah. It's the two beats. Yeah, yeah. And it's like, you know, you're working with the chair with the prop, right?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you have got to make it work, right? So there's a lot that you have to control just physically to make it and then figure out the comedy. We did that twice. Uh-huh. And I don't know which take that they had,

but it was like, I just knew, I felt like it's like, if I get this fall and people laugh and we're going to have a good show. The whole show

is going to be good. The whole show will be good. It's all hanging on this chair breaking. But in some ways, it is. I'm not hanging in that kind of pressure way, but it is. You'll set up the tone for the entire thing.

The entire metaphor of the show is that she sits in the fucking chair and it breaks. Right, that's it. Right, so it's like I want to. Yeah, it's a whole show, so I need to get this moment. And Amanda Peet just, because it's a great, I haven't seen, there hasn't been a college comedy in a long time that I can remember. And the way it works, because you would have thought, if you would have pitched that a decade ago, people would be like, I don't know. Who really knows that world? But because the kids are so different now and engaged in a different way, that there's real tension on the campuses, it seemed like a great idea.

that there's real tension on the campuses, it seemed like a great idea. I think she came up with an amazing idea, an amazing setting, and with an opportunity to restore it, to go on and on and on. Because it's like the microcosm of everything is in there, and it can be on the campus. And what's happening?

Does it keep going? I don't know. I don't know. I really wish it did. But it's like no one's calling me. Really? Yeah, no one's calling me, man. Fucking Netflix, man.

Yes. Okay, you said that then. No, I'll fucking say it all day long. I would love to. I would love to because I just thought that also we just started really kind of establishing the characters. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah.

And there's so much more you can kind of go on with each of the characters. Yeah. Bob Balaban's character, Holland. And there's so much more you can kind of go on with each of the characters. Yeah. Bob Balaban's character, Holland. Balaban. Too much. And like Duplass, right? So fucking good. He's so good.

It's crazy. And what a gentle gentleman. Like he's so lovely and erudite. Just like lovely. Yeah. And so in control of whatever the hell he does. Yeah. It's like crazy that his comedic ability is crazy.

He's another one of those guys that you're talking about. Yes. It's almost like I don't know how conscious he is of it. Like where he dips into especially that space. He controls this space of what is it called? I don't know. When you just look straight at someone and don't have any expression. And then you control the energy in that moment.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's so funny. Did you work with him before? No. Never have? No. I didn't realize you'd been here so long. You mean in L.A. or working?

Just working in the business or in L.A.? No, in L.A. la yeah i've been here since uh since the mid 90s yeah i moved from toronto to do arliss arliss with uh bob wool yeah robert wool yeah that's what that was your big break that was what brought you to the states was that was like that was like you know it's interesting it's like, maybe that's, I mean, who knows? I don't think that that was a big break. That was a very good job. But like, I had a life, a budding life and career in Canada, but I made the jump early. Yeah.

And then I got a job with Arliss. And that went seven seasons. I know. And I don't think I've seen one episode. I'm sorry. Is that to HBO? No, I'm not. I knew it was episode. I'm sorry. Talk to HBO. No, I'm not. I knew it was there, but I'm not a sports guy. You're not.

No. No, I wasn't a sports person either. I wasn't a sports person either, and I think about it. Okay, so I was just watching the Tony Hawk documentary. I just interviewed him yesterday. Oh, okay. I remember he was on the show. I just remember he was on the show.

I'm like, hey, I think I met Tony Hawk. On Arvis. No shit. No, I think he was. I was like, I think I just remember he was on the show and I'm like, hey, I think I met Tony Hawk. On Arliss. No shit. No, I think he was. I was like, I think I've met that guy. I know nothing

about skateboarding, but then I watch that and I'm like, this is kind of about skateboarding, but it's also about this weirdo and the other weirdos.

And the other weirdos, it's like, you know, when you get possessed and when, I don't know what that one, there's one gentleman that the way that he,

and some of them did talk about it this way, but he was, I felt, a little bit more open about understanding that. That mystical guy. I don't know. He was just talking. This Buddhist kind of. Yes. Yeah. That guy with the longer hair. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Hold on. I know his name. Hold on. Maybe I have the notes right here. I think that was Rodney Mullen. Uh-huh. I think that was his name. Maybe that's that guy, yeah.

So Canada, like I had something very discouraging happened to me with a Canadian recently. Bruce Hills, I saw Bruce Hills. You know Bruce Hills from the Montreal, from the comedy festival? Oh. He runs a comedy festival. Okay, okay.

I saw him in Austin. I just did a big show in Austin and he was there with a musician that I really like. And he just started saying like, yeah, you can't even run to Canada anymore because it's just as bad there. I'm like, no, I was going to run there. Wait a second, you mean Palooza?

Yeah. Jesus. I mean, that was one of my plans, Vancouver at least. Well, I think you're okay in Vancouver. Well, I don't understand why Canadians stay here. Why we do? It's not like I don't have some sort of escape plan.

You always have that escape plan. But you can just go back. You've got a passport, right? That's not a big escape. You're like, I'm home. My family lives there, so I'll just go move into my sister's. Yeah. Well, it's the whole

world did you think about it what did you think about it like when trump was here what did you think like i gotta go i'm gonna go you want to know what uh when he was elected i became a citizen here yeah interesting yeah on purpose yeah because it was just like i don't know what i'm doing for me my my canadian identity yeah was kind of stopping me from becoming a citizen. And I had already been living here for, I don't know, more than 15, almost 20 years. And that was when you decided to do it? Yes, I did. Yeah, because I was like, it's too important to not be able to vote.

Not only that, it's like when you're in the position that we are, it's like if someone's going to ask you a question, I want to be able to be able to answer it. And so I- as an American. Yeah. As someone who actually practices, hopefully what everyone does practice with the right to vote. And I that was the first time where I'm like, OK, what am I holding on to trying to be a Canadian? I'm not trying. I am Canadian.

But like like holding on to some sort of escape plan in that kind of way. And I don't know if other Canadians, you know, you know, have always felt that way. But I finally let that go because like these things were too important. Well, that's that's inspiring. So do you think you fixed it? Yes, John, by the way. Obviously not because I became a citizen and look at where we are. Good job.

Everything changed since you've done it. is it and look at where we are good job everything changed since you've done it but i you know most canadians like i i don't know they don't even think about it in the same way i think about what america like as in the sense that i'm an american and i and i get scared here all of a sudden but like canadians because to me i think canada represents something that it might not be i i think i romanticize the idea that like, oh, it's so integrated and people are nice and everyone can go to the doctor. But every time I'm up there, I always enjoy it. But I realize there's not a lot of menace to the cities. There's not an edge to it.

There's definitely a – it's a little duller. Well, yeah, because it's like there's not guns, man. Exactly. Where's the excitement? I know, exactly. It's like that's good. Well, yeah, because it's like there's not guns, man. Exactly. Yeah. Where's the excitement? I know. Exactly. It's like, that's good. That's fucking good.

I know. If you're going to say duller and it's like, you know, I don't know. I wonder how you feel about this. Like, now I feel like moving into like definitely into my midlife. Yeah. Me too. All that shit that was so crazy that you wanted and that you chased after probably unconsciously, you know, in your teens, 20s, and even into your 30s.

It's like, I don't want that. I'm like, I really don't want that. So it's like- Duller's good. Duller is fine. Yeah. Duller is fine for me because you can say dull and you can say peaceful. There's other words of how you-

Sure. No, but I also find that like just on the street and just the you know and i again i might be romanticizing because anytime i get out of town i'm like oh it's it's so nice here even if i'm in a hotel room you know but i'd say i'd say my friends and my friends are people who come from the states who grew up to canada with me let's just say um there is definitely a change i mean like my girlfriends who if they come here, suddenly they feel so much more pressure about how they look. This also might be,

oh, California and LA for sure. The States. And then there's also a certain type of assertiveness that is here that can kind of throw Canadians off. They really can. But on the reverse, it's, but the thing is, I'm sure that you've heard this.

There's a certain politeness that we have as Canadians. But as thing is, I'm sure that you've heard this, there's a certain politeness that we have as Canadians. Yeah. But as a Canadian, it's really passive aggressive. Yeah, of course. It's passive. We have those in Minnesota, too. Oh, yeah. It's kind of moved down there.

Yeah, the Midwest. Yeah, the Midwest. I feel like Midwesterns are very Canadian. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's all loaded and a lot of martyring going on. Yes, yes. I'm not going to tell you that you just butted in line, but I'm going to complain about you. Oh, yeah, right.

Or give you a little bit of a look. Yeah, and then stew about it for the next two hours. Sure, it gives you something to do. It's like a hobby. So growing up there, what did your parents do? Like what kind of situation what kind of situation yeah like like super usual like immigration yeah kind of life like both were immigrants yeah yeah yeah so my parents they immigrated from south korea when it first kind of oh that that first wave of immigration opened in um after 65 so around 65 they came as students to, you know, I was just talking to a friend about this.

It's like the majority of their trauma happened before 25. And then they moved countries. You didn't mean they were under the occupation. You felt this with your folks? No. You know what? I don't think I ever really felt it until like I was an adult. And like deep into adulthood where you just realize because you know

you're just dealing with your parents and they're your parents right but when you think about it's like oh before you were 25 you were born into an occupation you went through the second world war you went through the korean war and then you left culture language everything and then you went across the world to study you know with a bunch of white people. Yeah. You know what I mean? And then I think that, yeah, I've been thinking about that lately. It's like, that's kind of like their trauma.

And then they have just the regular kind of trauma of living and being an immigrant. But isn't it interesting, though, because you can't, it's hard to empathize with your parents because they're your parents. So like you it takes a long time. And by the time you do it, you're like, oh, my apology. Yeah. Yeah. I was a little hard on. Yeah.

You know, I got to tell you, parents, it's like this long game. It's like you could possibly be an asshole from 13 to 30. Yeah. And then maybe come around. And I wonder, like, as a parent, I'm not one. Me neither. It's like, is it worth it? Does it feel good at Christmas when they come home and you really feel it from them to say, oh, God, I'm sorry.

I'm sorry, Mom and Dad. I was a real asshole. Oh, dear. Or thank you. I don't know. I mean, oh, God, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Mom and Dad. I was a real asshole. Or thank you. I don't know. I mean, that's. I don't know. You know, I never think that I should have had them ever. It's weird.

What was the thing that obviously you knew about yourself? That I'm selfish and anxious. Yeah. Like, I worry. If you give me a few minutes as an acting exercise, I could worry about the children I didn't have.

No, sure. Of course. It's like, oh my God, is it breathing? Okay, it's okay. Mm-hmm. I just, like, I feel that with cats.

Even with the dumb cats. Sam. Yeah. You know, but, like, it's crazy. And I just, and I know that I would've just passed that panic on.

And I, you know, I used to have, I used to be angry, but I don't think I am. But I, it's crazy. And I know that I would have just passed that panic on. And I used to be angry, but I don't think I am. But it's anymore in the same way. But I'm not in proximity to people every day. That stuff you don't know about yourself where you're like, God damn it. I think there's no quicker path to self-knowledge if you receive it or not than having kids. Yeah, but that shouldn't be the it's not the only way the journey no that's no but it's it is one way i i it's like i really admire parents it's like it's tough and it's like if you because i think actually the majority of

people make the decision to become parents unconsciously that's a problem. No. Why don't you have them? Why don't I have them? You know, when it came time in my life in my 30s, mid to late 30s, as a woman, you make that decision of what I'm going to do and to do it on my own. Because there's a window there. There is a window, which I tell all my younger friends. It's like, if you want them, you've got to plan for that shit. Like, if you think that's just going to younger you know friends it's like if you want them you you gotta you gotta plan for that shit yeah like if you think that's just gonna happen one day it's not but sometimes it just happens it seems like a lot of people like i guess we do that now this is what we do like it's yeah yeah i definitely have friends who yeah who've done that i do jokes

about it like i literally say you know if you have love in your heart and you want to have a kid and you want to give it love, that's great. But if you have a sort of a weird void where your heart should be that you think a kid would fill, maybe don't do it because the void will pass along. You'll pass the void on. And then I, the punchline is, you can actually track your

void on 23andMe now. And it turns out my void's a 99.9% Ashkenazi Jew. Yes. And it started in the chest of a tailor's wife in Belarus in the Pale Settlement in the mid-1800s. So it's nice to know. Yeah. That's a good background.

That's a good background. But you decided not to. Yeah. I think that for me it was I just didn't want to do it alone. I was single at the time, you know what I mean? It was after your marriage? Way after. Way after.

Yeah, way after. And it didn't come up when you were married? Like, are we going to do it? Oh, I'm not going to talk about that. No. Oh, okay. Because I was married twice. And like the first time when it came up, she wanted them, you know?

And I was not in a place in my career where, or in my life, like, it was just sort of like, it was terrifying. I was like, no. Yeah. You know, and it was, and I think she just expected it to happen. And it was one of the reasons why I couldn't stay. And then the second wife, she would not have them with me. She went on to have them with someone else. Uh-huh.

Yeah. That's complicated. Well, it's not that complicated. I was an asshole. Oh, okay. Okay. Well, okay. You said it.

Yeah. But, like, so I just didn't know if there was pressure or not, but it was all within you. No, thank God. Yeah, for sure. It's like I feel like I was completely in charge of my womanhood. You know what I mean? And I do think about it a lot. Not like, oh, I wish, blah, blah, blah. No, I think about like, what was my instinct then? How has it brought me here now? me here now i will say now uh because it's the time of my life in my career i'm playing a lot of mothers yeah and i'm really grateful for that because it's like oh um maybe i wasn't meant to be a mother maybe i just i need to play them do you mean because it's also like what happens in that time in your life it's like what is it that you really want yeah right is it really that you want

to parent is it really that you want a replica of yourself? Yeah. Is it really wants, you know, all those things like the hole inside of you, you better be conscious. Or at least I was at that point in my 30, late thirties to be able to be conscious,

somewhat conscious. Yeah. Right. So for me, it was like, I do want to parent. And it's just like, is parenting only,

can it be, can it be wider than specifically one-on-one a child from your body? Yeah. And it's of your own genetic makeup. Sure. And it looks like this. But it's like, what does it mean or what are the essential parts of parenting that are interesting to me? Oh, yeah.

Right? Yeah. And I feel like I can do that in my life, not as a parent. But as, you mean in your life or as an actor? As an actor. Oh, yeah, yeah. that in my life, not as a parent. But as you mean in your life or as an actor? As an actor. Oh, yeah. And in my life. Well, one, it's like I have I really have a lot of children in my life.

And like I'm an aunt. And then I'm like an aunt to a lot of kids. Oh, really? Yeah. You got a lot of siblings? Yeah. I know I have two siblings. So I have like four.

But it's like I got I got a lot. I got a lot of kids. Yeah. I got a lot of kids. And I really relish that position. Yeah. I love being an aunt. I think I'm a good aunt. It's just like I love it. And then I go home. You of kids. Yeah, I got a lot of kids. And I really relish that position. Yeah. I love being an aunt. I think I'm a good aunt.

It's just like, I love it. And then I go home. You can go home. Yeah. And then I go home. But it's also like those things of like things on a wider scale. It's like, so there's a whole whack of like millennial Asian American actors who are really, really, really coming up. And it's like they all have my number.

Yeah. Because it's basically the thing, one of the things that always interests me is like, is, uh, I feel like I understand. Hmm. I feel like I,

I really do understand and have the ability of staying there. Yeah. It seems that way of being there. Right. So, so maybe it's not directly a one-on-one thing, but it's spread wider to say, I can be here for you. Yeah. I will stay here and stay steady, you know what I mean?

Yeah. And, you know, hear what you have to say, yeah. Well, that's great. I mean, because, you know, there is a point where you become an inspiration to a generation of certainly Asian actors. But also, you know, it seems to me that you didn't get the credit that you deserved until later in your career when Hollywood decided it was now proud of people of color and Asian actors. Like, look, we have them. We have one. We have some.

Here they are. Come on out. That's terrible. Oh, gosh. I'm very happy to laugh about that, yes. But it's true. It can be. It just, like, it seemed like there was, like,

and I think it's clearly a good thing that when, you know, there was enough social screws put to the industry that I don't know from an outsider and I don't consider myself an insider. It does seem like in that world, some things are changing. Do you feel that? Yes. Yeah. But yes. Yes. Meaning like it's like I feel because I get this question a lot in much more direct ways of like how is the things improved or whatever this industry improved. One, it's like I always started service or some sort of like, uh, uh, demands you're just demonstrating that change as opposed to really being change and really

understanding that, um, the development of change. I feel it's like, uh, I feel only the change for me is since like probably 19, 18, 19. And I just will see and hope, you know, if the shine comes off of, you know, the openness, the wide openness of diversity. You know what I mean? Hopefully the shine won't come off and the development will really start happening. Because you just can't put you just can't put the things that have been made in hollywood the way that they've been made yeah you just can't stick people of color in there and expect it to work right right well what i'm

talking about is i think with like this the sort of fragmentation of the media landscape and also hollywood in and of itself as we know it kind of losing some sort of traction in terms of what people take in that I see a lot more different kinds of shows like Reservation Dogs is a great example. When I saw that, I'm like, this is probably the best show of the last 20 years. And it was only because I'd never seen that culture before. And the entire timing and sensibility and place and spirituality, all of it was different. and place and spirituality. All of it was different. And it was something that we had been denied and they had been denied a voice in the cultural dialogue.

And there it is. And I see that with other shows too. Like I May Destroy You. What is that show? I know. What is that show? I know. What is that show?

So yes. So yes. And I just love the inspiration on your face because it's just like a jolt of like goodness yeah inspiration of creativity and the kind of thing of like hey those people were given that's not so much oh we were given the shot they were given the opportunity to really be able to say exactly what they want yes yeah yeah and I and I see that happening a lot and I'm so grateful for it and like look I'll just have to wait for know, middle-class Jews to get their shot in the business.

Oh, I hope it works out for you guys. You know, we're just, we're patient. Good. Why do you put the age at 18, 19? What happened in 18, 19? No meaning 2018, 2019. Oh, okay, okay. That was the only time where I actually felt like

there's a shift in um the industry oh yeah and what was uh what what marks that i think it's just what you're saying it was like oh that means because things are coming out now that means that the the someone said either it was lined up and then suddenly someone said yes to to to actually producing it you know i mean so in this space of time i feel like there's been yeses that have happened. Well, I think I also had this mind-blowing thing, and I was guilty of not realizing it, of being ignorant in the sense that,

because I had a show on TV, and my writers were just my friends. It was a small writing room, but it was just a bunch of dudes. There was four dudes and maybe five, and it was guys I knew,'t i didn't think to diversify because like and there was that moment where i'm like why why why can't we just pick our friends and the truth is is that i started to realize that there's it's when you start talking to old writers they're like well i can't get a job anymore these old white guys it's like well yeah why should you in a way you've been carried for 20 years and they see that as a threat diversification

where really it is an expanding of the voices like why not have all the points of view so we can see something different right and also i gotta tell you the people who have not had a shot we we need the people yeah the old dudes you the old dudes. You want to know why? Because it's like, there's stuff to teach. Yeah. You know, there's stuff to develop.

Sure. You know what I mean? Like, what I don't like is being set up to fail, which is in some ways a lot what the chair is about. You know what I mean? It's like,

she's set up to completely fail. So it's like, okay, we want to have diversity. So we're going to stick a bunch of people who do not have the experience. Right.

And we're not going to pair them or help develop them. It's not good for experience. Right. And we're not going to pair them or help develop them. It's not good for anyone. Right. It's not good for anyone. And then it's like, you know, the work that they've been working with or trying to get their show. Yeah. I mean, it doesn't get a proper.

It doesn't really get a proper shot. Well, that's what's great. Because if you're telling me that all these young Asian actors have your number is because you can provide that in a way. Yeah. Because it's like, yeah, that's true. That mentorship is giving people the room. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? Not telling them what to do,

but at least telling where you've been and holding some sort of space, right? What was, when you started, like how, did your parents expect you to do something else? Oh, you already know the answer to that question. I do. I do. What is it?

Of course, anything else. They expected you to do anything else. How about you? How about you and your parents? I think my parents at some point decided that I was going to land on my feet somehow. So they weren't that attentive and they weren't that you know great at parenting they're very selfish people but but somehow I did land on my feet but it was a long weird journey of you know constructing some sense of self that worked for me like I don't I

don't feel like I had a a like a strong identity for a long time maybe I did if from the outside but because my parenting was they were sort of nebulous i kind of just did what i wanted to do and somehow was charming enough to to to get by even in college i mean i was like i don't know what i was doing but you know i was an english major you know so people liked you i guess yeah they did i don't know i never really saw that i was always way up in my head i know and then it just takes a couple like 15 more years and then 15 what maybe 40 okay i was out there yelling and trying yeah yeah but then i don't know but yeah so did you go through a whole yelling period like i feel like i went through like yeah like an over um over performing period and then

go through a dark period depressive period as as an actress yeah i just think you know when you go when you're when you're taught when we're basically talking about like the sections of how of time when you're trying to really find your identity yeah i you know going back to my parents it's like i i know and I've spoken about this. Yeah. I'm really lucky when it comes down to, like, the whole family of origin. Yeah. I have great parents. Like, you know, everyone's complicated.

You know what I mean? Every family's complicated. Yeah. But when it comes through the wash, it's like, I really lucked out. I really lucked out with my parents. In terms of parents in general or Korean parents? Both. Because? Because, like, Korean parents, my parents in terms of parents in general or korean parents uh both because because like korean parents my parent my you know what well also one i have two siblings

one is a lawyer and the other is a like a medical geneticist right so so they got a couple yes so so two out of three yeah exactly but i Yeah, exactly. But I think that they always knew. I mean, you have your child, you know your child. Your child is somehow a little crazy. Yeah. And is so hyper and is so like, so emotional. You just don't know what to do with them. You were that one?

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I think I don't think I've even been diagnosed with ADD. You feel like you were that? Oh, I think I've even been diagnosed with ADD. Do you feel like you were then? I think I was. I feel like I only have been realizing that into my 40s. Yeah. Because I've had the opportunity to work, I really need to have structure.

So as soon as that kind of goes away, I find it a very difficult place to be. And then. So you're saying that like at some point parents who are sensitive and have an empathetic connection with their kids, they're just with someone like you, they're like, we just need her to settle down. And we want her to be happy in something. Yeah, I'd say. Oh, no, because my parents are like super Asian. We just need her to settle down. We want her to be happy in something. Yeah, I'd say, oh, no, because my parents are like super Asian. So there's a lot of high expectation and demand. You know what I mean?

I think that they, so the Korean part of it is, I think that they accepted who I was, even though they didn't agree with it then. Do you know what I mean? Because it's not like I haven't always been who I was. Right. Right? So it's not like when I said, like, okay, I'm going to theater school and I'm not going to go to university. It's not like it wasn't like a real fight. But it's not like they didn't see that fucking thing coming.

Do you know what I mean? It's not like they didn't see it coming. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so, and it's also this, my parents really uh love me that's so yeah so but it's like i also i also i'm so grateful because i think a lot of that stuff uh helped me like in this business it's it's like it's just it's really really hard and definitely like when i was coming up yeah um that sense of self or that sense of uh of worthiness um i was really lucky that i had and i think that's also i definitely helped

me get to where i was you had it i had it there was not there were certain holes as we all have certain holes but that one i did not have it was filled so your parents did a good job and they gave you the space to be your own person somehow. I think that they couldn't stop me. Well, that's good. But that's also letting you be, you know what I mean? Yeah, yeah. I know plenty of particularly East Asian kids or adults who it's like, I was talking to one of them.

It's like, well, I went to pharmacy school for six years, and then I went to art school. You know what I mean? It's like, so I didn't know it's like so it's never easy i've talked to a lot of asian people of you know chefs actors and it's like it there's a similar thread to it yes but the ones that succeed eventually the parents come around yeah they they do they do it's like and it's that it's it's hopefully the love supersedes the cultural expectation or you know but i imagine for I imagine part of the cultural expectation is like your parents were first generation Canadians. And they're terrified.

Yeah. They just want you to be okay. It took me a long time to realize that part of it. They're frightened for you. How is this going to work out for you? Yeah. It's easy to think like get off my back but they're like what are you gonna do yeah how are you gonna you know get a house yeah yeah yeah

yeah i think yeah i it's it's nice to see that they're not scared anymore and they can see you on television and in the movies yeah yeah it's nice but you say you you do you knew who you were going into theater school? Because I hear what you're saying, and I think that when I look at myself in retrospect where I see me doing comedy in the 80s, I'm like, oh, I'm the same guy.

But if you would have asked me at that time if I knew who I was, I'd be like, I don't fucking know what I'm doing. Really? I don't know. I didn't feel grounded at all. Uh-uh. I think that, so there's two things.

It's like almost different layers of how you know yourself, right? I would say, yes, I did before going to theater school. And then, of course, becoming an adult, you know, really going through, you know, really taking the mirror or, you know, trauma happens or disappointment happens and it forces you to look at stuff in a deeper way. That's for the next couple of decades or few decades. But I'd say being generally grounded, even though I was a very emotional child. Yeah. I think I was. Yeah.

I think I did. I think I did in the way of like I knew I was going to be a performer. I knew I was going to be an actor. It's what I love to do. And I was like, seriously, I've not done anything else. Yeah. I don't have any other skill. Yeah, me neither.

Yeah. Yeah, when the chips were down and I didn't know what was going to happen before I started the podcast, I was like, there's no... The last job I had was at a restaurant. What were you doing? Serving people? No, I was not good at that. That was very short-lived, the waiting tables.

I was okay on the grill. I was good on the grill, too. I was a terrible server. Yeah, I took things personally. I was good on the grill, too. I was a terrible server. Yeah, I took things personally. I was so anxious about it, and no one trained me for the fajitas. I was so embarrassed. No one what to? They didn't train you?

They didn't train me with the fajitas. It's just like, I didn't know what else to bring out. I didn't grow up eating fajitas. So that's your one memory of being a server? I didn't know you needed tortillas with them. I just thought it was the steaming plate. I just was very sensitive and like I couldn't take the disposition because I wanted, I think I wanted people to like me. And at some point when I decided they didn't, I became very angry.

I think I was so, so anxious and I just kept on thinking like I would rather have a monologue in front of a thousand people than have to take someone's order. I have anxiety too. Who doesn't have anxiety? I don't know. I mean, but like I have it like in a way that's, you know, I mean, I can apply it to things, but I have general anxiety without, it took me a long time to recognize it. Yeah, yeah. A lot of dread. A lot of dread.

How are you working with that? A lot of dread. A lot of dread. How are you working with that? Because you mentioned it's like you know how to either – I do want to know how you work with the dread, but you had just mentioned how you work with the anxiety. You know how to work it. Yeah. What is that? Well, I mean, I can separate what is – I don't have a tremendous ability to compartmentalize.

Everything sort of happens at the same frequency, you know? this ability to compartmentalize. Everything sort of happens at the same frequency, you know? But if I get present and kind of, like, realize what my head is making up and what is real, I can kind of separate them and calm down. But the dread thing, I don't know. And also, like, the feeling that I'm always in a hurry. You know, like, I've got to, like... I know.

Oh, my God. Even when you're talking about it, I just have to, like, calm down my stomach. Yeah, I do a joke about it. I just say, like, I have to tell myself, like, at least 10 times a day, like, you're talking about it, I just have to calm down my stomach. Yeah, I do a joke about it. I just say, I have to tell myself at least 10 times a day, you're not in a hurry, man. Because I wake up and I'm like, fuck, I got it. You have nothing. There's nothing. You're coming into the day a little hot.

Let's take it down a notch. I got to make coffee. Oh yeah, that's what you need. How about a quart of coffee until you're sweating and tired? How about a quart of coffee till you're sweating and tired? But I don't know. I just try to put it into context and decide whether what I'm doing with my mind and my head is really happening. Yeah.

Because you get right down to it. It's like I have no control over nothing. I know. And there's a surrender to it, right? Uh-huh. And what do you do? Oh, well, I have a practice. You do?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. What is it? I meditate. You do? For sure, for sure. And then also, like- How often? Oh, I try and, you know what? It's also like the practice of meditating is just, let's just say, sitting on the cushion,

right? That is one, right? I tried it. I was doing meditation for a while for a few months during the pandemic. See, I see your face. I see your face. it's just making you anxious talking about meditation no i did it that's okay i got it done no i got it done it's behind me it's behind me now good good you did it yeah i'm done could you could you do it for like two minutes no i could do it for like 15 20 minutes for you and i breathe and i get you know i get out there and I do like I listen to the on an app, you know, the whatever the headspace or whatever.

That guy started to annoy me, though. Yeah, yeah. But like I got into it, but then I just lost patience. Sure. And like because it was like you had to get up and I do it before coffee and I'd stretch and I do the meditation. Then I have coffee. But then at some point it was like it'd be just better to have coffee. Do you feel like

you never got to a place where you could feel the benefits? Let's just say, or you could feel the, it's terrible, it's not results, but you could feel the influence

or you could feel the muscle of what the meditation was doing. Did you ever feel like that landed? Yeah, I did. And I can kind of do it. Maybe I don't like it. That's okay. I don't like it either. Maybe it's not preferable to me. Did you ever feel like that landed? Yeah, I did. I did. And I can kind of do it. Maybe I don't like it. That's okay. I don't like it either.

Maybe it's not preferable to me. Maybe the idea of just getting with the breath and sort of spreading the brain out and whatever it is capable of into the big mystical frequency. Maybe that's like, I don't mind that and I can tap into that. But it's like, yeah, but let's get moving. Oh, yeah. You clearly need to move a lot, even when you're probably sedentary. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

You know, I'd offer it's like, it's the point of view on it. It's how you see it. Because definitely, I understand. Do you do TM thing? No, no, no. You just do. I just practice mindful meditation, that kind of thing. That's it?

Yeah. No, no. But there's lots of other forums. No, but people talk about that TM thing like it's amazing. but i don't know is it i mean if it works for you it's just like you'll get a magic word no let's see that it's not about a magic word it helps a lot of people it's like no i know that's just the i like the idea of getting a magic word well go go go go give them five hundred dollars how much magic. But it's like you can do it in so many different ways. I know.

You know what I mean? Yeah. It's like for me it's also like the more modalities that you can find some sort of like a peaceful practice is better. You don't necessarily only have to sit on a cushion and then just watch these thoughts go a million miles. And then just try and surf them like a surfer. No, it helped me do that. I can definitely see where the thoughts, I can feel them coming. And I'm okay.

I'm definitely a lot calmer and I can handle life. I'm not anxious to the point. But it's just this little bit of dread. But I think that might be okay. Maybe I'm just looking at it wrong. Maybe it's actually excitement. Yeah, yeah. Maybe it's actually excitement. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. Maybe it's creative juice. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. It's the stone in your shoe. Yeah. Do you do it every day?

No. Ah. No, no, no, no. But again, it's like what I'm not going to do is like, you know, condemn myself for not doing it every day. You know, it's like, what is it? Like basically, what is the meditation, right? It's like, and are you doing that every day? Which is like, how do, like I approach coming here.

You know what I mean? I have a lot of anxiety about I'm super nervous. Are you still? No, no, no. It's gone, right? It's gone. It's gone. It's gone because I said it. Yeah.

You know, as soon as I came in, was just like i'm so nervous and then it's like it's like this so it's just it's just kind of getting i don't know more practice and like i'm just gonna try it this way i'm gonna try sure it's also this it's like you're what you're also so good at is is coming into presence right yeah and bringing in people into presence sure and then for me, that just feels good. It does. Yeah. I don't know, man. My brain does the same.

I think I've grown in some ways. And as I get older, like we were talking about before, there's a lot of things that aren't as important as they used to be to me. The things in my 30s and like that I really thought I needed and all this stuff. A lot of that stuff has come to pass. But my brain will definitely lock in on negative things yeah uh as opposed to positive things like you know like you know body image shit food shit like like i'm crazy but it's somehow like sadly i can also identify that as a way of being grounded this is what i'm this is a familiar shit these are the cycles that are

familiar to me so like you know as opposed to open my heart and sort of let love in and joy and shit. I'm like, no, I ate ice cream. I'm an asshole. So like, it's a choice. You know, I have a very, very strong negative bias. You do? Yeah. Because it's, and I also trace it to my mom.

Yeah. She, yeah. She's really tough. Yeah. Right. Right. So that kind of like. Tough just oh she's tough a lot of ways i think she's she's always been really really demanding yeah do you know me not demanding like on me but it's like extremely a very classic thing uh real high expectation oh so withholding is she diminishing so in the way no no i don't think it's never good enough

never good enough never good enough never good enough well it's just like uh i've talked about this before because like she said something to me in the kitchen i wrote it on post-it and i put it on instagram it's like i don't know five years ago she said if only you were neater yeah i would love you more oh yeah and she's absolutely meant it straightly meant it it's like if you were only a little bit neater so that was the thing yeah but it's also like it's like i just thought it was the most hilarious thing ever and i kind of love her for it she has no she has it's not funny to her at all she just really means she said um just glibly in passing we were

she said you know mark when you were a baby i just don't think i i knew how to love you right and how was your how was your how did you i was sort of like wow there's the missing piece they're guessing now I know. Don't worry, I've been spending my life figuring that out for myself. So thanks for being straight with me. And then the next one, years later, she said, I'm not sure I could love you if you were fat. And I'm like, wow. I don't know.

I don't want to make it sad. No, no, no, no. I would just free yourself from that. I'm free. Or just to free yourself. for for whatever reason i'm pretty happy to be alive you know i'm not uh you know i'm not a depressive person really i'm an anxious person and my brain gets dark sometimes but it's really like and i've i've talked about on stage before if i if i've ever had like suicidal thoughts in my head it was only to relax me and oh yeah you know what i mean and and so but like

in dealing as you get older and dealing with loss or you deal with grief or you deal you know and you realize how finite this thing is and also as we were talking about earlier you know as you get older it really becomes pressing uh to to sort, if you are unhappy or unsatisfied, to figure out, well, I haven't got that much time left. So I'd like to get some of that. Despite the world, despite politics, despite everything, I don't want to be selfish, but I've got to figure out, who do I got to pay to have a good time? Yourself.

I guess so. Yeah, yourself. Yeah. do i gotta pay to have a good time yourself i guess so yeah yourself yeah because then it's just like again that there's a limited amount of time and obviously the world is the way that it is it's like the start the the sooner i feel like we start getting better with that within ourselves and it's just like you're just nicer to everybody else and what did you are you how are you with it good the world well no do you feel all right i mean are you able to have a good time and experience joy and all that shit uh yes oh good yeah i think that's getting definitely better yeah yeah it's getting but it was harder earlier i think it was i think it was definitely really really hard yeah it's harder in my 20s and 30s and 40s. All of them? No.

Yeah, you're right. It just feels like I'm going to hold a lie. 20s and 30s. Let's test my 20s and 30s. That's nothing. Those were... Well, good. I'm going to go ahead. Oh, you only went through a short period of that stuff.

Desperate times. Two decades of desperate times. I mean, like, well, what happened with the career? How unhappy were you for how long? It's not unhappiness, but it's because I also feel like it's a part of drive. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? It's having the withholding mom who's never satisfied with what you're doing.

Sure. Do you know what I mean? Which I feel like a lot of we East Asian people have, and Asian people have. A lot of people have. It's just like, it gives, it also gives, at the early part of your life, I think it gives you a good drive, right?

It gives you a good work ethic. Yeah, but didn't you, didn't you internalize that voice? Yeah. And then you got to figure it out. Yeah. You got to

free yourself. No, I know, but like it's horrible to have that voice that's like, well, that kind of sucked. What do you mean? You just won a Golden Globe. Yeah, big deal. I know.

Some of that stuff is tough. Yeah. And when you got those, were you like, I'm good now? I did. No, not at all. You know it's not. You know it's not. No, no, no.

I think those very, very high, low moments, again, are just like opportunities because it's kind of like an opening to figuring out, like, what does this mean? Well, how much did, like, I know you talk about this. I know it's a reality that, you know, being sidelined because of being Asian in show business. I mean, how did that affect your drive? How did that make you? Did you get to points where you were like, no, this is just good. This is the way it's going to be. I'm never going to have these opportunities that these other people have. Oh, God, I got to tell you, you even saying that, it makes me feel emotional because I feel exactly

what you've said. I've carried inside my body for a very long time. So when you're saying, has anything changed? Really? It's when I felt it in my own body. It's like, oh, no, I can actually feel like that feeling of saying this is just how it's going to be and it's never going to change. Yeah, that was for a long time. You know, it's like we all have our burden. We all have our loop. We all have a thing that we have to carry, you know, and definitely for me, you know, being, you know, an Asian American actor in this business. Yeah, because it's also like, you know, when you're doing your work to try and free yourself from it, it's just like, oh, there's like decades of internalized shit. Yeah. You know what I mean?

I mean, I like I have to like imagine that at the beginning, you know, when you start to have these realizations and being forced to feel like you have to accept those limitations, that the big thing was like, I just hope there's a big Asian ensemble film. No, see, see, that's the kind of thing, right? Because you know that it's not going to come or you're thinking at least definitely in my time. That's not going to come, right? So I think about it now. It just pushes you because it's like if you still want to do this, how are you going to do it? If you're not going to get XYZ opportunity, let's just say to do a big studio movie, which I never have. You know what I mean? It's like if that's not going to happen, then what are say, to do a big studio movie, which I never have. You know what I mean?

It's like, if that's not going to happen, then what are you going to do? So it just forces you the questions of, do you still love what you're doing? Is that why you're doing it? Because you just want to be in a giant movie? Is that what it is? So it narrows down of, why do I want to do what I do? So it's the same thing, like the same thought process around kids. Yeah, because it's just an opportunity to figure out exactly who you are

and then to kind of go through with whatever intention is that you want to go through. And what did you land on? Well, I just feel like probably in the mid-aughts, I just had a shift with how I approached and felt what acting was. Do you know what I mean? It was, I know it was always a passion for me.

It was always, was like who I was, what I did, what I loved. But it got deeper and it got deeper in the way of like moving into understanding what art is, what it is to be an artist. And, you know, I grew up like, I grew up in a Christian household. I'm not Christian myself, but I understand spirituality. And suddenly all those things kind of started merging into one. And it's just like, so the kind of thing where it's like, it's a practice, right? You can find that practice in this conversation.

You can find the practice on set. You can find the practice sitting on the cushion, right? That's when things actually just started kind of coming coming together for me you know i started working you know creatively a different way and i started meditating more more seriously and then i realized oh my god this is all the same thing it's all the same thing so how were you able to deepen your practice as an actor how were you working differently as an actor in your practice as an actor? How were you working differently as an actor when you made that shift?

I think, you know, in some ways with like... Like what show did it start on? Grace. Yeah. Yeah, because it was also like the actual challenge of what it is to be on a network television show. Right. You know...

You have plenty of time to try things. Exactly, right? But it's also you are doing similar things again and again. work television show right of you know you have plenty of time to try things exactly right but it's also you are doing similar things again and again or it might not be what you want to say it might not be creatively exactly what you want to do but so how do i make it creative and how do you make how do you not get like bitter exactly i exactly do you mean mean like or not give up? Not like give up, which I feel like that's like one of the proudest things I feel like after 10 years. I don't I don't think I ever gave up. And it's just it's just like a it's like a feeling of like, so my character, she was a surgeon. She was a heart surgeon, right? Yeah. You can just come in and, like, clock in and do all the scooping thing and just say this and, you know, be in the surgery.

Suture. Yeah, suture, all that stuff, right? But I got to tell you, it was really, really hard for me to just clock in and do that. Good. cluck in and do that good and so i just was like okay one i'm gonna you know the if let's just call it the meditation muscle yeah helps you just be a better person yeah i think right so you're dealing with difficult dynamics you're dealing with how you deal how you speak creatively how you how you deal with your own stuff so you can just be clear with another artist and more focused and more focused yeah and then just creatively it was like he instead of saying oh my god here i have to do the same

thing over and over again it's like i deeply felt that i had the opportunity to then in the symbolism of a heart surgeon what is that yeah why are you repairing hearts yeah Right? So that became interesting to me. Yeah. Why right now, this week, am I having to repair a heart? Yeah. And what does that mean to me? And then you can get really personal in your own shit that you can work out. Oh, yeah.

On screen. I think that, yeah, and it's amazing that you were able to kind of appreciate that. Because I also think that the feedback becomes limited, too. that because I also think that the feedback becomes limited too as as the media landscape breaks apart it almost feels like you're just working at a store that no one goes to oh I think it's uh you know ultimately it's how you approach anything right I guess but you kind of want the you know I I want to feel it I do do, too. And I want to know how many people, like, when I do shows now where I'm like, I really fucking nailed it, I feel like I deserve, like, to be carried off with holding a trophy. But then it's just me going back walking to my hotel by myself. Well, both of those things, I think, that are really interesting.

It's like, yeah, you should, one, be satisfied and celebrate. Yeah. And then, two, you're a regular human being. You have to go back. Oh, yeah. No, no,'s like, yeah, you should, one, be satisfied and celebrate, and then two, you're a regular human being, you have to go back. Oh, yeah. I know the back to the hotel room business with the ice cream or candy just sitting there. Go either

way. You can go either way. But you weren't a heart surgeon forever. No. I don't know a lot about Killing Eve, but that went on for a while. But you loved it, right? Yeah. That was for four seasons, four years.

We just finished it. And people loved it. Yes, they did. I am satisfied with Killing Eve because I do feel like I created a character that changed over four seasons. Yeah. Well, that's the deal, right? I feel that way also about Grey's Anatomy. The character changed over ten seasons, but changed in a way that I felt like I actually actively changed her.

Right? So something like the chair, though, there's so much of the situation that felt so present for me as who I am that it was not hard to reach. Okay. And it's just also like, it was just crazy when we shot it. It was like we were shooting it while we were sprinting. Do you know what I mean? It was just, you know, in Pittsburgh in like January of 2021, it was like a really fast shoot. I mean, I cannot tell you how fast it was.

It was the fastest shoot. And you were COVID protocols? Yeah, yeah. It was all that crazy thing. And there's a lot of our cast members were, you know, north of 65. Right. So people were really taking care um but oh my god yeah it's so funny that we that that like it it ups the ante for the acting and

like it because you don't i i'm not reading any of that i wouldn't have known when that was shot but i guess none of us do no none of us do but you know what it's crazy off stage right you know you got you know the groups that can you have to have the mask on right away it's crazy offstage. You know, you got the groups that you have to have the mask on right away. It's crazy. It's not fun. No. It's not fun. And it also, actually, I think in some ways it worked for our show because everyone had the same anxiety.

But also, you're so happy to have your mask off and talking to people. We only had it between action and cut. Yeah, yeah. I know. Yeah. So you're like, you've totally. There's something about the energy of that. Yeah.

And there's something about, I just felt like all the players were so supreme that they could just drop in like that. It doesn't happen all the time. Yeah, yeah. You must know. It doesn't happen all the time. But I just felt like there was something about just being there and being open and being able to. You know what? just being there and being open and and being able to you know what i also felt like everyone was leaning really really heavy into their first instinct yeah because we just didn't have time i

mean maybe we had like two maybe three takes of everything and people like bob like you know he's like an improv wizard so i mean you know that you he can kind of roll with it yeah yeah yeah was there a lot of improvising or no not too much much? Here and there, in a lot of ways, we just didn't have time. But sometimes Amanda would just run on set and tell us to do something that was not in the script. And it's like, oh, okay. This is one scene I'm having this argument with Bob. And we're in the midst of an argument. And Amanda came in with our first AD's hat he had like a pork pie hat yeah

and and it was just like bob this is your hat after you say this line throw it yeah yeah right yeah and it was like maybe i'm at the peak of my career now yeah that's that's exactly it that's exactly it and it was like hilarious and it was interesting because, again, that leaning into that fast and furious instinct, what I could see eventually was Amanda was creating the tone of the show. Sure. Right? So in the midst of a, let's say, a heated argument that is in a certain dramatic place, something ridiculous will happen. And then you'll see the straight person react to the ridiculousness and then keep on going with her argument. Right, right.

Right? person react to the ridiculousness and then keep on going with her argument right right so it was exciting in that way of like oh we're in the midst you can see the the creation going on it was so impotent too no i know it's like it's like that's a great choice to put it in an action you know yeah how many times did he do it he never got it on there did he no he did not that's a hard thing to do that's a hard toss that is a hard toss yeah we did that we did that that one little toss a few times oh my god so when do you think like well getting back to that that idea of you know tempering your expectations because of your cultural identity. I mean, when did that start to lift?

Like, when did you start to do it? Because was it at the time that Hollywood decided to celebrate everything? Well, I got to tell you, I want to take it off of it's like it's all about Hollywood. Right. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's like, when did that? It's like when you go into your identity. It's like, you know, it's like there's a lot of things that that, you know, having trying to get art that your dance partner is a behemoth. You know, you just go, you know, I don't want to fucking dance with you.

You just turn your back and you do your own dancing on your own. That's really mostly kind of what happened. That's when the behemoth goes, hey, hey, hey, hey, where are you going? Hey, we see you. Yeah. It's it's so much about it. Don't dance away. Yeah.

It's just about like, just don't, that person's not going to call you back. Just get on with your life. I watch Sideways probably twice a year. Oh, you do? Yeah. Does it hold up? Oh, yeah, of course. What do you mean, does it hold up?

I don't know. To me, it's almost like it's just a pure dark truth, the whole thing. Yeah. You know? That was a good time. That was a good time shooting. It was like such a kind of, I'm glad I experienced that time in the early aughts. Dude, when you were like, you know, you're married?

Oh, yeah. Crying. I remember when I was shooting that, crying. But when you just take that helmet helmet and just pummel him and thomas was just taken i mean he had the stuffed animal in front of it but i was just i was just wailing on him and you know stephanie was just crying and crying oh my god it was great that all of that that whole thing is like, you know, the intuition around certainly men was fairly profound. Yeah. In that movie.

Yeah. And I think that the performances of Paul and Tom. Oh, my God. And putting those two together. Those two guys are so smart. It's crazy. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And just putting the dynamic of them together. It was just like, it was really magical. It was a good time. It was a good time. And you played a mother in that? I did. Yeah?

Yeah. Not so much of a great mother, but yeah. Yeah. You're all right. They're not the same. You're right. Yeah. So what did you do, though?

I'm kind of backloading this, but I mean, what did you do? What was your training as an actor? Like, where did you go to school? Oh, theater. I went to the National Theater School in Canada. Oh, yeah? Yeah. So I did all that.

And that was, like, classical training? Classical training. What do you mean by that? Like dancing and fencing and Alexander technique? Yes, very good. Yes. Alexander Tai Chi. Oh, Tai Chi. I, very good. Yes. Alexander Tai Chi. Oh, my God.

I think about it. I think about it now. It's just great. It's just unbelievable, the training. It's like I recently asked an old classmate of mine who is a mask teacher, a clown teacher. I'm like, hey, I want to try and explore this character physically. Is this for the new thing with Aquatina? No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

Okay. All right. I don't know. It's for something. All right, fine. It's such a lie. But it's like, yeah, I want to try and figure out a character in a completely different modality. And it's so like, let's put them a nose on.

Do you know what I mean? Let's put the mask on and then try and move that out. So you had a clowning t-shirt? Oh, yeah. We had a lot. My class had a lot of mask and a lot of clown and a lot of checkoff. Really? Yeah. We didn't really get that much Shakespeare. But we had, obviously, Alexander Technique. My class had a lot of mask and a lot of clown and a lot of Chekhov. Really?

Yeah, we didn't really get that much Shakespeare. But we had, obviously, Alexander Technique. We just had unbelievable mask teachers. Yeah, and great clown teachers. I really love that stuff a lot. What's the power of the mask? There's something about the mask that frees up your most vulnerable part. It's almost like you can be acting,

but you are not seen. There's something about that is deeply private and holy. You know what I mean? When you do mask work, you really, you know, there are a lot of masks where you cannot speak in the mask

or there's masks where you just do the work primarily first with the mirror, right? Yeah. And I just love that that stuff but it because it does it it's um have you ever done that it gives you access you know it just frees you up yeah it's you can't believe it you know i've never done it yeah one uh one famous teacher he was our mass teacher he just gave an example like this you know a a young actress was working on something was not being able to get through.

And he he held up a handkerchief in front of her face and said, do the scene now. And then everything came out. There's something about the power of that. And not only that, when you the power of what it translates to an audience, how it frees you up as an actor is tremendous because you'll go further and you'll surprise yourself within it because the mask will pull stuff out of you. But I always feel it's interesting to see it from an audience perspective

because you're moving into archetypes. So you can embody it and then the translation of the character gets bigger. Oh, wow. And that's stuff you can use anytime. What you get out of yourself. Well, yeah. So just like the classical training, if you do that.

I got a lot of that. But when you make a call to ask for help, what are you trying to do? I'm trying to do it all wrong in the big, broad way. Okay. Do you know what I mean? It's like in the privacy, it's like there's so much, like, so example, when you just talk about your own anxiety or you talk about, like, it's like I'm at this, definitely at this point, it's like when I show up to set, everything's ready to go.

Yeah. That's good. Do you know, I'm not saying that I've answered all the questions because but you have to you have to be you have to you have to know what you're doing yeah you know what i mean so for you're completely free to play yeah because then then the this the gods will come and hopefully visit you and give you inspiration right you know what i mean right so but it's like so so so something like you, when you're developing a character, you have to have space to be bad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Right.

Really bad. Oh, and you can do that at home. Yeah, you can do that at home. You can do that at home or with somebody you trust, like, you know, a friend or a teacher. Don't need to do it on set. Nope. Don't need to show up and be like, this is going to be shitty, but we'll all get through it. Because you know, I'm sure, like, you know when it's like, that's not truthful.

Or it's like, my sphincter is tight yeah i i do like i i do know when takes are bad and but then you're also up against that thing where you're like that wasn't great and they're like we're moving on you're like i hate it i hate it can we just no i got it did you though and then like you have to you have to make yourself believe them. Well, they're the director. Maybe they did get it. I don't believe them, but I don't watch anything. Nothing? I'll watch it.

It's like, oh, you have to talk to press, and they've seen this episode and this episode, so I'll watch that. So I'll be able to know what they're talking about directly. Sure, sure, sure. Or when you've got to do a talk show, you're like, which Sure, sure, sure. Yeah, like when you gotta do a talk show, you're like, which clip, what do we? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh yeah. Okay, so, I mean, I feel better, do you?

Yeah, I feel good. Yeah, I feel like I should meditate a little bit. I learned a little bit about craft. I enjoyed meeting you and it was exciting. I think... You're gonna turn off the mics and we're gonna meditate no yeah no we can't why not i will totally sit with you i'm chumpy that's fine that's a perfect time to do it no we can you know we'll get off mics and then you'll tell me shit you didn't tell me

on mics and then we'll meditate all right that was sandra oh the final season and all past seasons of killing eve are streaming on amc plus and now let's play some some some heavy guitar for lynn guitar solo guitar solo Boomer lives, monkey and Lafonda. Cat angels everywhere. It's winter, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So, no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs, mozzarella balls, and arancini balls yes we deliver those moose no but moose head yes because that's alcohol and we deliver that too along with your

favorite restaurant food groceries and other everyday essentials order uber eats now for alcohol you must be legal drinking age please enjoy responsibly product availability varies by region see app for details hi it's ter's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption

actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative.