WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1335 - Rosie Perez

Episode Date: May 30, 2022

Rosie Perez initially thought success would paper over her trauma. But the emotional ramifications from the abuse she went through as a child were never going to stay hidden for long. Rosie and Marc talk about how acting is still risky for her but now she has tools to help work through the high-wire act of tapping into dark places. They also talk about her friendship with Spike Lee, her reasons for working a lot, and her two current series, The Flight Attendant and Now & Then. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Lock the gates! all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast welcome to it how are you are you okay i'm just back from canada i'm a little tired. I'm always tired when I travel. I tend to take as early a flight as possible out and then I have a whole day of being exhausted. You don't want to lose that day. You want to get out early so you can get home and have an entire day where you just cannot get your shit together because you're too fucking tired. where you just cannot get your shit together because you're too fucking tired. That's the way to do it. Stay busy. Get up early, leave on the first flight out, and then get home because you have things to do and you barely can keep awake. Great.

Look, people, I love going to Canada. And I will tell you about it in a second. Let me just tell you this. Today on the show, Rosie Perez is here. She doesn't like L.A. I know it's not that she doesn't like L.A. She hates to travel, but she was out here. She's here promoting her new series, The Thriller, Now and Then on Apple TV+. She's also in The Flight Attendant. Season two of that show is streaming now on HBO Max. But you know Rosie Perez. You know her from Do the Right Thing, from White Men Can't Jump. You know her from Fearless.

You know her from a million movies and TV shows after the last 30 years. It's Rosie Perez. And it's an amazing conversation. It's one of those conversations that happens here on WTF occasionally. That is just, it goes deep. It's heavy, but it's also revealing and exciting. I mean, and emotionally moving. It was like when Rosie and I got done with this conversation, we had to take a few minutes just to sort of like gather ourselves. and there's a lot here but it is one of those it's a monumental episode it was for me uh and i know these episodes this is one of the all-timers in that this is what

this show does at its best is whatever happened between uh me and rosie perez which you'll hear in a few minutes i i am back from can. Oh, before I tell you about that, I do want to mention Fahim Anwar's new special. Fahim Anwar is really one of the funniest guys working today. Truly. Smart, funny. He does the work. It's called Fahim Anwar Hat Trick.

It's available now on YouTube. He performs a special in all three rooms of the Comedy Store. For those of you who don't know the Comedy Store, the belly room, the original room, and the main room, hence the title Hattrick, which is what we call that. And I'm telling you, I'm telling you, he's one of the funniest guys working currently. So look, I was in Vancouver, which is one of my favorite places. And I know I've talked about this before, but as soon as I get off the plane in Canada, the entire weight and psychic chaos and dark electricity of American culture just dissipates. And it is such a relief to just enter the kind of

practical, slightly mundane, grounded culture of Vancouver, Canada. I just, even pretentious people in Canada lack pretense. It's just I went out walking. Well, I'll tell you exactly what I did. I got there the night before, and I went out with Charlie Demers, the great comic from Canada. We went out and had dinner. He usually opens for me, but Cameron Esposito wanted to do a few minutes, so she got that gig. And I haven't been using an opener, but I wanted to see Cameron. She wanted to do some few minutes. So she got that gig. And I haven't been using an opener, but I wanted to see Cameron. She wanted to do some new stuff. So I was like, okay. But me and Charlie went out to

Tojo's, had some sushi, talked about life. It was very good. It was connected. He was sort of in a place in his life where he was doing some thinking. I've been doing some thinking. We were able to talk some stuff through about where we were in our lives and that's what you do with friends and it was lovely I saw a few people I went out and saw I went and watched Roy Wood Jr. work on some stuff

I saw Andrew Santino I didn't watch him I felt no need no need to watch Andrew Santino but we flew out together and that guy he's a bad influence I gotta tell you

I haven't smoked a cigar in like three years. I've had no nicotine in my body for years. And Santino talked me into it. I went out and bought a few Cubans. And we fucking, we did it. It was great. Took a nice walk across the Barard Bridge. And I just saw the people of Canada holding hands out walking everyone

outside it's beautiful there it's sad that I'm living a life where not only am I thrilled that I don't have the the kind of frenetic dark electricity of American culture pulsating through my phone into my goddamn face but it's there's water there's water in vancouver it rains there all the time it's lush and green there's beautiful foliage there's oceans and mountains and and snow-capped hills whatever man what i'm trying to say is that i'm jealous of rain i'm living in california and all i think about is when is everything going to burn when is there going to be no water and it's soon and i got to figure out where to go i got to figure out what? When is there going to be no water? And it's soon. And I got to figure out where to go. I got to figure out what to do. I'm going to be part of a climate migration at some point. And we've got to get, we've got to start buying property in the

Midwest before they close their borders to progressives and Jews. But look, I just loved being in Canada. It's so relaxing. It's just people wearing practical clothes, you know, having a life. It seems well integrated. It doesn't, there doesn't seem to be, I'm not saying, I don't know much about it, but it doesn't. And maybe I'm romanticizing. I know it's not perfect. I know they have their problems, but it's always relaxing, man. So I took that walk, ate some berries. Then I sat down, I I mentioned I sat down with Dana Gould and James Adomi and I haven't seen Dana in years just doing the old comic thing we're old comics now talking about the old days he's so fucking funny though and then uh that night I did the show at the Vogue and it was uh spectacular I was happy to see. It was a nice sold-out crowd. Cameron Esposito did a great job. Had a great show.

And after that, I smoked my third cigar, and I was almost nauseous. And now I'm exhausted, and everything down to my skin smells like cigar. I had to wash it off me. Yeah, so I just loved it. I ate ate some good stuff and i did some nice stuff i just it's so relieving but here's the deal this i think you'll find this conversation with rosie um kind of uh amazing uh i i know i did and i just i don't know what's going to happen when people come in here and i can't I can't really explain that to you enough. When people ask me if I get tired of the show or is it a job or whatever,

I never know what's going to happen when someone comes in here. It's a wild card. I only know what I can look around and watch. I can know their work. I can know things about them, but I don't know how the hour is going to unfold ever. And the amount of anxiety and dread and excitement that I feel leading up to it is always just,

it's just when somebody shows up and it's just we're one on one. Some magic happens, man. It just I just lose myself in it and and and listen and stay locked in with whoever I'm talking to here. And it never gets boring and it never feels like a job, to be honest with you. And it never feels like a job, to be honest with you. It's exhausting sometimes. I mean, after a conversation like you'll hear now between me and Rosie Perez, I mean, you know, it was a lot. And it was satisfying and deep and felt human. But, you know, after it's done, it's a lot when you sort of fold in all the other shit, when you let your phone occupy most of your brain and suck your hope out of your face.

On top of a conversation like this, it gets a little exhausting. So we had to take a minute, Rosie and I, after this conversation. We had to take a minute to gather ourselves and think about what we had just done. As I said earlier, Rosie Perez, her new show now and then is now streaming on Apple TV Plus. The Flight Attendant is now in season two. You can watch that both seasons on HBO Max. And this is me talking to her. There is, you know, I wouldn't say it's a trigger warning,

but we discussed fairly openly, you know, childhood trauma. And it was moving for me and helpful. And I don't know. I don't know what to say. This is just what this show does at its best. This is me talking to Rosie Perez. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth

at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+.

We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. My allergies are bad. Is it like pollen? Pollen, and I have non-allergy allergies. What does that mean?

What are those? I'm only asking because I'm trying to figure out if I have them. Non-allergy allergies are the allergies that are not listed. Oh, really? Yeah. So you don't know what they are? They're just general? They're general. Like, so they said that I'm most likely allergic to smog, allergic to dust particles that come

out of air vents. Everything. Oh, so everything. So, yeah. So, yeah. So, that's what I'm allergic to. Yeah. Thank you.

Okay. Good. I've never gone to check if I have actual allergies, but something's gone wrong since I've gotten older. Me too. Right. You didn't have them when you were a kid? No.

Yeah. Didn't notice them. And now, like, some days I feel like my face is going to pop off. Yeah. So how long are you in town for? Do you like coming out here? No. No.

I leave tomorrow morning. Yeah? How long have you been here? Since last night, late last night. That's it? Hit it and quit it. That's my style. What'd you do?

Did you do some TV? No. I came in for something that HBO is doing for the flight attendant. Yeah. And it's a whole day thing. Oh, the junket thing where you just sit and talk to it, answer the same question over and over again? Over and over and over and over. And you got to just accept that that's part of the job?

Exactly. Yeah, I know that feeling. And everyone approaches you like they're the first one asking you? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Well, that show, I mean, it's gotten very popular.

Yeah. And do you like doing it? Yeah, I like it. Yeah? it yeah are we started sure we've started yeah oh my so my allergies and sinusitis is going on okay um so not if you don't want if that's the one thing you don't want anyone to know um no i like the show. I like it a lot. I like working because, you know, like when you get older, you just want to work with people that you could work with.

Yeah. You know. I barely want to work at all. You've got to convince me to work at all. But I don't stop. But like every day I'm sort of like, why am I doing it? Right, right, right. Right? and we're like the same age i can't i i some days i'm sort of like what am i working towards right what i think it's up to me right yeah like i'm the one who has to go like i'm done

yeah but then what do you do i don't know so but you like working with her she seems interesting yeah she's nice yeah she's um overly generous that's nice like if we go out like i go stop paying for everything you don't have to pay for everything i have my own money you know yeah i said you should know you know my paycheck right executive producer you know yeah yeah um but she's like um kaylee always wants everybody to have fun even after we rap yeah she's like okay i'm buying drinks i'm like we gotta work tomorrow yeah and she goes oh my god you're such a character right now i said and you're being such your character right now who drinks the night before you go to work we gotta be up at five

we have seen you know 35 isn't that what we do yes kaylee it's just like Isn't that part of, that's the character too, right, though? Yeah. Kind of drunky? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm not good with alcohol. I like it. Yeah. I could drink a glass or two.

Yeah. After the second one, I'm chatty patty. Oh, yeah? Too much? I don't shut up. And you're so quiet, usually. Actually, I am. And the people, when they work with me, they think something's wrong.

Or, you know, are you okay? I go, mm-hmm. And it's just, you know, I'm kind of quiet, you all. Since when? Right. But what about this other thing? since when right but that like so that's but what about

this other thing like I was just watching the the now and then thing that is amazing yeah

yeah that that one that one that one almost did me in yeah yeah that was that was like

I haven't had a project like that since Fearless this movie I did with Peter Weir I remember that movie that was like, I haven't had a project like that since Fearless, this movie I did with Peter Weir. I remember that movie. That was a big movie. It was a big movie. Nominated for Oscar.

Yeah. I mean, I still like when I was thinking about talking to you. I mean, that scene where you and Jeff Bridges in the car with the toolbox, right? Yeah, yeah. That was crazy. It was crazy. So this one has a similar effect on you? This one has a similar effect on me.

How so? And also like Frankie and Johnny in the play alone. That one. The play, yeah. Because I got so in and so heavy and I have some issues. So when I get too heavy, it affects me deeply. So like after work, it was very difficult to shake it. And I'm usually very good at that.

I can shake it. You know, when they say rap, I'm done. I'm back to me. Yeah. And I was back to me, but it's just the heaviness and the sorrow. It was just too hard for me every single day. With Now and Then? With Now and Then.

It's the character and uh the the um executive producer and co-director gideon raff yeah he did homeland and everything he goes well it's kind of your fault too and i said what are you talking about he goes you developed this character into this right into this realm it wasn't she wasn't supposed to be so heavy and dark yeah and and i said yeah but i didn't realize how dark and heavy it was going to be right and so i had my sister calming with me um and you know the first day she was there in spain and i came from work yeah she was like what happened yeah and i go no it's just work and she goes oh my god yeah and like she hugged me and i started

crying she goes did someone like hurt you i'll go and fuck him up and i go no it's a new york yeah yeah yeah so um so it was it was it was really dark dark dark character flora and even when i watched i just watched the whole series recently my husband yeah grabbed his heart we were laying in bed he goes oh my god he goes this kind of pains me it upsets me to see you like this I said it's not me it's the character yeah and he goes right oh my god and and you know and so it was really heavy well that's what but that's interesting about about the way you work I mean you always bring yourself to it, right? I mean, you're not, you know, you're not learning a Russian accent or anything.

No. Well, this one, this one is, this one is, let me say this. Yeah. You have to bring an element of who you are to every role. Of course. Because then it's not, there's no truth there. No, not authentic. Right.

Yeah. you are to every role because then it's not there's no truth there no not authentic right yeah and but it's different because the character of flora she plays a detective she got into homicide because something because her brother ended up killing herself killing himself because he was wrongly accused of a rape and he got a life sentence from it oh my god and and so she dedicated herself to fighting the bad guys yeah she never addressed her trauma with her brother she never addressed the fact that she lost both her parents yeah and so she just has blinders on and has this blind ambition just going going going to get catch the bad guys and these bad guys happen to be entitled pricks and those are the same type of characters that pinned a crime on her brother yeah um and you know i i understand injustice injustice happening to me when i was a kid i get that and and i understand pain and i understand sorrow

i understand all of that the difference between me and and the character Florida is that I don't want to stay there. Right, right. I don't want to stay there. I don't want it to be my driving force anymore. Right. You know, and she was like that 20 years ago. And then Florida, 20 years later, she's still like that. Right.

She lives in it. She lives in it. And me personally, I can't survive like that. No, of course not. But did you, like, because I talk about that sort of the effect of trauma a lot. I just talked to a guy yesterday who has PTSD from Afghanistan, a guy who ran for president and stuff. And I think that, like, most people have some version of PTSD. Right.

You know, from their life. But did you, but like now, because there's focus on it and there's treatment for it and they can identify it. I mean, how much of your life did you go through not knowing it? A huge chunk of it. A huge chunk of it.

I thought that success was going to solve all of that. I thought that like, I'm not going to be a statistic. I am going to survive this childhood trauma and abuse and I'm going to be successful. And then when the success came and I'm still fucked up,

you know, I hit a wall. When was that? How far in? That was probably like when I was about 30. Uh-huh. So that's a long time to deal with that. 10, 11 years already. Yeah.

And I thought, I thought I was faking the funk. I thought, you know, I had, I had it in the bag. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I didn't. Just because you were, you just were, you were immersed in your work constantly. I was immersed in my work constantly, but also I thought I was above it all. I thought like, oh, I survived. I'm a survivor.

Oh, right, right. I'm above it all. Right, I'm tough. Like, you know, it's behind me. It's behind me. Fuck it. Yeah. Yeah.

I'm not like the other people that went through what I went through. Victims. Yeah, I'm not that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know. Yeah. I'm not that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and trying, trying to come to grips that I was dead was very, very painful. It was very painful. I can't imagine. So like, cause I going back, cause I feel like I grew up with you.

I feel like I've seen you my whole life. Really? Somewhere. Do you know you, well, you're such a presence and you're always sort of there somewhere working i mean i can't like do you ever look back and think like holy shit it's been this many years yes yes do you still talk to spike lee yes yeah yeah he hates that i'm better friends with his wife though oh yeah i love are they're together. So that's a problem for them. Yes. Yeah. One time we went out to dinner and he started crying.

We were in Puerto Rico. Yeah. And me and Tanya like chatting back and forth and he's sitting there. Neither of us is speaking to him. And not on purpose, you know. And he starts crying. I said, Spike, what happened? And he goes, do you know that tomorrow is going to be the 20th year anniversary of do the 25th anniversary of Do the Right Thing? I go, oh.

And he goes, yeah. And you like Tanya more than me. I don't understand what went wrong. We both started cracking up. We were laughing so hard. He goes, you go to dinner with her and you hang out at George's house with her. You never invite me. I go, I'm sorry.

And he goes, why? I go I go well she's more fun yeah and that makes sense he doesn't strike me as a particularly fun guy he is he is it's just that um I hope he's not gonna listen he's intense and he's socially awkward yeah but he doesn't know it yeah right all right yeah you know what I mean he doesn't he doesn't he doesn't know at this point he doesn't know he doesn't know it yeah you know and and i you know and i recognize that and he's a great artist and that's always going on you know what i mean but he's also funny yeah he's funny but he has to be very very comfortable with you yeah right to show that side well that makes sense you know because i find him to be a little intimidating. I've met him once and it was just sort of like, wow, he doesn't, you know.

But that makes sense that he just has to be comfortable and he's probably a great guy. That was who I was. Yeah. I didn't know I was coming off as intimidating as I was. And I didn't know I was coming off as combative, angry. Yeah. I didn't understand that. My best friend, Julie, told me, people think that you don't like anybody. I don't know. Yeah, right? Yeah. Because I didn't recognize that that's a weapon of defense.

Well, also, like, I have to assume that, you know, there is a way people, like, outside of what you experienced, but there is a cultural thing in New York, right? And in, you know, Brooklyn. And there's a toughness to it that, you know, outside of what you experienced personally, there is sort of something intimidating, I think, a little bit. A little bit, but mine was a lot. So you were born in Brooklyn? I was born in Brooklyn. Yeah. Yes, I'm a product of an affair.

Yeah. And back in those days, that was scandalous. Both your parents lived in Brooklyn? No, my father lived in Puerto Rico. Okay. And my mother lived in Brooklyn? No, my father lived in Puerto Rico. Okay. And my mother lived in Brooklyn. They're both Puerto Rican. Right.

They're both married to different people. And then, okay. Right. My father was going to cheat, not with my mother, but with her sister. Yeah. My mother saw him out the window and said, I'm going to go take out the trash. And she cut him off and said, and he goes, oh, my God, you're such a beautiful woman. Would you like to have a cup of coffee?

Yeah. So he forgot about her sister. Yeah. And they went and had a cup of coffee. And then I popped out nine months later. That's quite a cup of coffee. That's a good one. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. So. How'd you find that out? How'd you find the story out? I found that out, not the whole entire story. I found out the whole entire story when I was nine.

But I found that out like when I was around four. And because my mother gave me away a week, a week old to my father's sister, my, my biological father's sister. So, okay. So she, okay. So that was sort of like, we got to hide this kid or what? I don't, I still don't know why my mother did that. So it was your biological father, the guy he had, she had an affair with. Right. His sister took you. Right. And so. And you thought that was your mother? I thought she was my mother.

I called her mommy. Yeah. And then I remember this vividly. There was, maybe I was three. I don't know, three or four. And there was having one of the gatherings, you know, Puerto Ricans, we have gatherings for no reason. Yeah, sure. You know, no reason.

Parades, gatherings. Everything, right? Yeah. Someone lighted a match. Oh, let's have a party. You know, it's like that. So he was sitting in the chair and he was drunk

and he kept coming over. He said, come here, come here. Rosita, Rosita, I'm your daddy. Really? Yeah. And I looked at him and I just started crying and screaming and the whole party went quiet and I ran to my aunt who I thought it was my mother yeah and I screamed out he said he's my daddy yeah and I remember she went you

stupid and she started hitting him over the head and he started crying never forgot that moment Wow and so and you're three yeah how are you gonna forget that yeah and um and she kept telling me oh he's drunk he's a liar this and this not and all and but something in me knew there was a truth to that but i was too young to understand that because you didn't have another father figure right or did your mom right right right and and so my mother comes back you know when i'm four rips me away from my aunt why we still don't know and she put me in a in a convent oh uh like an orphanage yeah but it's it's not it wasn't technically an orphanage it was a home for children. Right.

Okay. And that meant there were orphanages. Yeah. And then they were home for children. Yeah. And home for children were for displaced, unwanted, abandoned. Yeah. And only a few orphan children were there.

Yeah. And so there, like on Sundays, you would have family day. Yeah. And I used to wait for my mother. She would never show up. Oh, my God. She would show up once in a while. Let me take that back because that's not fair to her.

Yeah. She would show up once in a while, but there were times where we would wait the whole day and she just wouldn't show up. And what was messed up is those were the days where my aunt could have came to visit, but she blocked my aunt from coming to visit me. But all the other days, my aunt wouldn't come to visit me or she would take me on the weekends back down to Brooklyn to be with her. And then I would have to go back to the nuns. And yeah, so it was like that. And then when I was nine years old, the nuns called me in. Mother Superior called me in and told me, you have a father. I go, you mean the priest?

Yeah, I got whacked with the rulers for that joke. I didn't like it. And said, no, your father is here. And he has, you know, he has rights and there were courts. And like, I'm nine. Yeah. You're telling me this at nine? But this was the guy, your uncle, who you thought was your uncle.

Right. Right. And then I walk out and he's sitting there. And you know him. And I know him. And I just sat there and I said nothing the whole visit. He kept trying to talk the whole visit. And I know him, and I just sat there, and I said nothing the whole visit. He kept trying to talk the whole visit, and I said nothing. And then he took me down to this restaurant.

It was called Sorrento's. I remember it. Yeah. Down the hill from the convent. In Brooklyn? No, this was in Peaskill in New York. And I remember he held my arm, and I yanked it. I didn't know he was being a gentleman.

Right, right. And he ordered me all this food. And I said, may I be excused to go to the bathroom, please? Because being in a convent, you had manners. Sure, sure. You got the shit beat out of you. Yeah, yeah. And he said, of course, I'll walk you to the bathroom.

I said, that's okay, sir. And he goes, no, I'm your daddy. OK. And I went to the bathroom and I climbed out the window and went back up to the convent. I left that poor man sitting there. I was so sad. And he was in a panic, they said. Because he thought he lost you? He thought he lost me. And I got a beating for that. I was put on punishment. I couldn't have supper for three days. They wouldn't feed you?

Yeah. That's crazy. That's not punishment. That's wrong, it seems. That's how they were. So what about your mother? she just had mental problems she was a diagnosed as a paranoid schizophrenic and they told me that like in my tween years why are you telling the kid you're a product of an affair your uncle is your father you know and then then, and by the way, your mother's a paranoid schizophrenic.

It's like, okay, yeah, I don't have any adult issues now. I'm fine. It's crazy. It's crazy. It's crazy. So this happens when you're nine with your father. So how does the rest of it unfold, the relationship? Does she have a place to live, your mother and stuff?

Yes. She went back to her husband. Oh, so she's a functioning paranoid schizophrenic yes wow how many siblings do you have on her side there were nine she had nine other kids catholic oh well catholic okay yeah they don't believe in abortion they just keep having kids they just keep having kids so how does this level off family-wise? I mean, when do you accept what is? You know, in terms of, like, now you know all the information. At least you know who your father is. How does that, does that get easier?

Do you accept it? I don't, that's a, I don't know. That's a good question. Shit, my psychiatrist didn't even ask me that. Who are you? Oh, my God. didn't even ask me that um who are you oh my god um i i think it wasn't a a conscious exception it just yeah it is what it is sure and it was that and and i i would i guess i didn't accept it fully because i used to lie in school yeah you know You know. Oh, about where you come from. Where I came from

and I made up this whole story. So you're ashamed about it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And, you know, and I remember the day this one kid in school,

she totally busted me. Yeah. And told everyone at school. About your real life? My real life. Because she knew, yeah. She's one of the kids from the Catholic home.

Oh, yeah. Because I used to say, oh, my father, he's going to bring a chauffeur to bring me back down to New York City. You know, like, yeah, the chauffeur was the metro line, you know, when I went by myself. And that's when you started acting. Yeah. Oh, I've been acting from out the gate, you know, ever since that time where I'm your daddy.

That was it. That was it? That was it. Time to act. Yeah. So it was intense. I guess I didn't really accept it until I started therapy 17 years ago. Okay. I started to accept it.

But you're older when you start that stuff. It's weird when you realize life is only so long. And you're living in some sort of discomfort that you can't identify. And then when somebody is finally willing to try to sort it out, you understand why. Yeah. Wow. But do you go as a teenager and stuff? Do you have a relationship with the real father and with your mother?

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah? I didn't really have a relationship with the real father and with your mother and oh yeah oh yeah i had i didn't really have a relationship with my mother she would have court appointed visits to her and at first i was like kind of infatuated with her yeah and i wanted her to like me and love me and stuff but i looked just like the man that you know she had an affair with him you know right so um she didn't like me too much because of that. And also she's mentally ill. Mentally ill, told me I was ugly like my father. You're short like your father.

I'm like, lady, I'm taller than you. Yeah, yeah. Does she have other problems? Does she have drug problems too? No. Oh. Just mental issues. Yeah, mental issues.

Alcohol. Okay. But, yeah um it just sucked to be honest it just sucked um and if it wasn't for my aunt and my father i think i would be a nut job really to be honest with your real father if it wasn't my father got got arrested so i have to give that man so much credit because he spent his, he told me this too. Yeah. He spent his entire life making it up to me. And we had it out one time and I felt so bad.

And I can't go there. That makes me too upset. But anyway, we had it out one time. Yeah. And anyway. Yeah. Yeah. And from there on, he stepped up.

No, he stepped up from the day he said, I'm your daddy. He went to court and kept fighting. When you were three. Yeah, for me. And that's where he got rights. Yeah. And kept asking me to change my last name to his, which is Serrano. Yeah.

And I said, no. Yeah. You know, because I didn't want to admit, I didn't understand it. But as a kid, I didn't want to admit my mother yeah you know because i didn't want to admit i didn't understand it but as a kid i didn't want to admit my mother gave me away i didn't want to admit she didn't want me i didn't want to admit that i was a product of the fair if i changed my name then that made it all true right you know yes and i could have i could have saved myself a lot of heartache if i had done that but i didn't understand as a kid. Right. It was just too much. Yeah.

And, you know, and I remember the day my father told me, you don't have to, but please forgive me. Oh, yeah, yeah. And it broke something in me that needed to be broken. I don't know if that makes sense. Yeah.

How old were you? I was 20. Wow. I was 20 years old. Yeah. And, you know, we cried and we hugged and everything. And that's when I realized, my God, this man has been fighting for me since I was three years old. I didn't get it.

He's been trying to make up for his mistake ever since then. And I remember there was something he told me, too, in that conversation. He said, Rosita, please be careful what you do in your youth because you will pay for it when you're old. And I was like, wow. You know, like, that's heavy. Yeah, given that you were a product of that. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Wow. So he was there for you. He was there for me. Whether you knew it or not. And then I guess eventually you did know it. Yes. That's amazing.

So like, so you had all these, I imagine all the insanity was the, like, because like, did your, am I wrong? Did your mom spend time in prison? Yes. She did? She did. Yeah. I don't want to say because my half brothers and sisters will get upset, but she spent some time in prison. She went to prison twice.

I mean, I have to assume that all the complicated trauma that you had to process was the abandonment, you know, love issue, everything, right? Yes. I mean, there's no—that must have been overwhelming. It was overwhelming. It's still overwhelming. It's just not a tsunami. Sure. You know what I mean?

Right, right, right. Yeah mean right right yeah yeah my psychiatrist told me something so great she says when i met you you were treading water in the atlantic ocean yeah and then you went into like the river and then to a lake and into a pond and now you've built a bridge and the puddle is there. Oh, yeah. And I said, when is the puddle going to evaporate? And she goes, never. And I go, why am I paying you? If I got to live in a puddle. Yeah.

And she says, well, a puddle is a lot better than an ocean. Yeah. You know, so it's still there. It's just not as palpable. Yeah, yeah. So, like, when did you start dancing and stuff? I was born dancing. Yeah.

I was dancing for, my aunt told me that I used to dance in the crib all the time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I would suck my thumb when I got tired, but still hold on to the crib rail and rock back and forth to the music. And my cousins would come home from school, i she said it was like i had a time clock in my body and i would pop up at the time where they were supposed to come home and just scream until they walked in the door and that meant that they had to play one of my favorite records i was one she told me she told me this is who i was when i was one and um uh i'm a soul man yeah and cool jerk they said were my favorite two records.

And I would dance with them until I literally passed out. And then the nuns, the nuns taught me how to tap. Really? They taught me how to tap. They taught me how to tap and how to play baseball. So that's good. I'm glad the nuns did good things. Yeah. They did a lot did good things. Yeah.

They did a lot of bad things, too. Yeah. But they were. That's another whole other layer of the trauma then. It was just the nuns. Yeah, the nuns. They were sadistic. Not all of them, but the majority of them, they were sadistic.

I mean, the beatings were brutal. And, you know, and it got to the point where I remember Sister Bonata, she used to beat the shit out of me, and one day she slapped me across the face. That was her favorite thing, to slap me across the face. She would grab me by my shirt, lift me up, and smack me across the face. Oh, my God. And one day I just slapped her back.

Yeah? Oh, my God. Oh, my goodness. Man, did i get it i got it so bad that i remember um uh i was laying in bed for two days in the girls dormitory at the convent and they had to send me to the infirmary because then they started getting scared because she didn't report it yeah and and then they were like wait wait a minute, something is wrong. That's how bad she beat me. Oh, my God.

And when I came back from the infirmary, you know, you would think that she would apologize. She's supposed to be a Christian. Right. You know? Yeah. I came back and she says, you better watch your step, Missy, or it'll happen again. Wow. And I was just like i hate you it's like yeah how it's like being in it's like torture being fucking prison or something it was like

prison i always said that's funny you say that because i always tell people it was like i was doing time yeah you know and for what from just being a kid but being a kid i remember one time she beat this girl so bad with the paddle uh paddle on her because they love to lift up your dress and pull your panties down and put you over your knee and then spank the shit out of you with a paddle. And she beat her so bad, this little girl. I'm still friends with this girl, by the way. Really? And then she made her kneel down in front of the wall and pray to God for forgiveness. And I remember I have this vivid memory of her bobby socks just slowly getting drenched with blood.

Oh, my God. Because she was like, she had sat down on the back of her feet, you know, kneeling, but she couldn't kneel anymore, stand up straight kneeling. So she just kind of slumped down. And remember that image like oh my gosh and like everybody was like terrified of of of this nun why wouldn't they be how's that woman doing she's dead oh you were friends not the nun the woman that you're friends with oh the one i'm friends that got hit she's doing the best she can she has the shakes what we call the shakes um uh like like nervous like shakes and stuff um she's married yeah um to a wonderful man and um you know she has children and she has a great career yeah but yeah she still carries a trauma because she never got professional help for it. And she's such a sweet woman,

but we're still very, very close. We call each other sisters. Oh, that's, yeah. Yeah. But the nun's dead. The nun's dead. Do you remember when she died? No.

You just heard about it? I went back up to... Peacekill? To Peacekill because I had written a book which was a disaster because i didn't promote it because i wasn't ready you're right to tell that story even though i told it i just before you got treatment and stuff no no i was getting treatment right but i just wasn't ready and i remember my psychiatrist goes i don't think you're ready to write this book yeah and I go I'm ready I'm ready I'm I'm I'm I'm good now yeah and she was right and so when all the promo I just didn't do well and I buried it and I didn't show up for a lot of the promotional

uh events I just it was really bad and like people always say like you should write a book I go I did but do you do you still feel that way about the book? Or was it just promoting it that was the problem? Do you like the book? I like the book. I think it's a little pedestrian in my writing. That's what bothers me more than anything. Not the information.

Or the story. You know, I just recently started really talking about the story in depth. Right. And it's still hard for me. Like, even when I'm talking to you, I can't look you in the eye sometimes. Yeah.

It's like. Because you're going, it's sad. Yeah. Yeah. It's sad. It's still, it's still hard,

you know, but, you know, anyway, I had to go back up there because the, the, the, publisher,

the publisher said we need some pictures. And, you know, I went. Oh, of the convent? Of the convent. Oh, my. What are you? And so I went with the photographer. I said, why do I have to go with the photographer?

And my sister went with me and my niece went with me and they started crying. I go, really? Really, guys? My sister comes. I was like, why am I taking care of you right now? You know, and we went in there and there were nuns that were still alive that I knew. And there was this one nun sister.

And you're a big star at this point. So they know you, right? No, they had no idea who I was. Oh, my God. Yeah. They were like, sister. I was like, I go, Sister Antoinette. Yeah.

And she goes, yes. And and i go it's rosie rosa marie and she went and she hugged me and i was like i froze because like a nun hugging oh my god right and and um and she goes i go do you remember me? And she said, yes, I used to give you sandwiches because Sister Bernardo would punish you with no food. And I go, yes, that's why I'm a greedy pig now. And she laughed. And then another nun comes over and goes, Sister Antoinette. And then she goes, yes. She goes, go to your room.

She goes, she has dementia. She doesn't know what she's talking about. Go. No, she remembers me, sister. She goes, no, she doesn't. I go, yes, she has dementia. She doesn't know what she's talking about. I go, no, she remembers me, sister. She goes, no, she doesn't. I go, yes, she does. And she remembers that Sister Bernardo was horrible to me and withheld food from a child as punishment.

And the nun goes, you need to leave. Wow. Can you believe that? No. I'm a grown-ass woman. Wow. And the nuns are kicking me out. Did believe that? No. I'm a grown ass woman. Wow. And the nuns are kicking me out. Did you leave?

No. I said, well, I need to go to the bathroom first. You know, still like that, you know, that child, that rebellious child. Yes. And I went to the bathroom and my friend, Eric Johnson, the photographer, he was fascinated by this all, right? He kept it light. He didn't mean to, but he was like, oh my God, this is so juicy.

And he's snapping away and everything. And I went to the bathroom. They leave. There's no security there. When they leave, I tell him, come on, come on, so I could show you where the girls slept. And that wasn't a good thing. Because when I went in there, in on, come on, so I can show you where the girl slept. And that wasn't a good thing. No.

Because when I went in there in the dormitory and I saw the bathroom, I got a panic attack and I couldn't breathe. Really? And he goes, are you all right? And I couldn't even talk. Wow. And I remember pushing him away and I said, I got to get the fuck out of here. Yeah. And I was leaving.

And the nuns go, excuse me, you have to sign out. And I go, I don't have to do anything. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And she came from behind the desk, waving her finger at me. And I just started to freak out because part of my PTSD, I have flashes of what I want to do. I know that sounds weird, but I have flashes of what I want to do.

And I have to, I've learned that to control it. Because what I wanted to do was take her finger and break it you know because I remember so many times fingers being pointed at me and so

I my sister Carmen goes Rose let's get out of here and she goes it's okay and she grabbed my hand and she said

you're not here anymore. You're with family. Let's go. And she goes, go to the car. And I went to the car and I looked back and my sister, my hero, my sister Carmen is cursing all the nuns out. And then when she gets back to the car, I go, you know, because I'm, you know, I still have that in me. You know, I was like, you can't curse a nun out. She goes, I go, you know, because I'm, you know, and still have that in me, you know. I was like, you can't curse a nun out.

She goes, I can do whatever the fuck I want. Like, fuck them. And I was like, and it was weird because I couldn't take that in at the time. I didn't, you know, it took us like halfway down, you know, Route 9 that I turned around and I looked at her and I went went you're my hero yeah oh my god you cursed out a nun you know like i couldn't believe it you know in fairness there were some nuns that were very nice to me like sister antonette sister ann sister margaret francis

you know those three um were were so kind and so wonderful. Right. They never tried to squash my spirit. Yeah. It was just a one? No. One or two? Yeah. Four. Four.

Yeah. When did you find out that one died, though? When I went there. Oh, okay. They told me she had died. Yeah. Did you smile? I said, thank God.

Oh, my God. That wasn't good. That wasn't good. What happened? That's when the nuns started to come out. Oh, really? Yeah. And surround Sister Antoinette.

Well, they must, I mean, just like the sort of pedophilia thing with the Catholic Church. I mean, they must have to deal with people coming back traumatized, wanting some vengeance or some accountability. Here's the funny thing. They used to have an annual reunion of the children that were in the home. And I remember some of the kids would say, oh, you're ashamed of your past. You don't want to go there. And I go, I might be ashamed of my past, but I don't want to go there. Not for that reason. I don't want to go there because I don't want to go back to the scene of the crime. Right.

There were crimes committed there. Right. I don't want to go there. I don't understand why you want to keep going back. You guys are acting like domestic violence victims. Right. Like Stockholm Syndrome. Yes. Yeah. And, oh, well, they did so good for us. Right. Like Stockholm Syndrome. Yes.

Yeah. And, oh, well, they did so good for us. No, no, no. Because they gave us a roof over our head and gave us food when it wasn't withheld

as an act of punishment. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No. Yeah. Terrible. They beat the crap out of us. Yeah. You know?

Yeah. They confined us and restricted us in so many things and they put stuff in our head that we're all spending years trying to like deprogram ourselves. Yeah. I said, I don't understand.

And they would go up there and show pictures on the Facebook. And I was like, I don't get it. Yeah. You know. Yeah. I mean, I mean, that's how the trauma keeps happening. Right. Yeah.

And that was my assholeness. Yeah. Because that was part of me thinking I was above it, that I was better than them, that I had survived because I was, quote unquote, stronger than them. And you were angry because you identified what it was. So your anger kind of made you feel like you were rising above it. Right. And I wasn't because I was a victim too. Right. And I wasn't because I was a victim, too. Right. But I had I had to come to that understanding. And then I stopped judging them and started really finding compassion for them that, my God, they really did damage. Look, you just can't shake it. You can't walk away. Yeah. You have to keep coming back.

You have to keep coming back. Yeah. Yeah. But that's like also repressing it. Like, obviously, they're choosing involuntarily the whatever good memories they've put in there. Right. You know, like over the truth. Right. Right.

So they're just kind of sleepwalking almost. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So when you like in terms of like you were functioning and you were you start doing, like, was all this anger being put, like, into your work? Into your, like, did you, when you were dancing and when you were, like, acting and stuff? Like, when does it start to be a job for you? Well, I was going to college to be a marine biologist.

I was studying biochemistry. Yeah. And then a series of events, like back-to-back hoppings, and changed my life. When you were like 19 or something? Yeah. And I saw at a club a talent scout from Soul Train. He asked me to go on Soul Train. That changed things.

And then I'm at a nightclub, and I get in an argument with Spike Lee. And then that changed things and then I'm at a nightclub and I get an argument with Spike Lee and then that changed things like my the path that I was on that I thought you know would lead me to the success I was craving as as as my salvation yeah um uh you know it just went you know it just took a different different tone. And what did you think it was going to be, marine biology? Yes. I thought I was going to be a marine biologist. Not in the water because I don't like to get my hair wet because it's too much trouble doing it all over again. So just from the boat? Yes, exactly.

I would be in the lab portion of it all. That was my thing. You know, I loved looking down a microscope, you know. Yes, exactly. I would be in the lab portion of it all. That was my thing. You know, I loved looking down a microscope, you know. So that was really your passion at that point? Yes. Where'd that come from? I almost drowned in Seaside Heights, New Jersey. Yeah.

One summer. And I kept having these dreams about a whale swallowing me up. That's the Catholic stuff, right? The Adjona. Yeah. And stuff and octopuses coming to get me. Terrifying. And stuff and I didn't

realize it but my psychiatrist goes, do you understand how strong you are? You were like, you thought you were going to get swallowed by a whale or suffocated by an octopus so you decided, well, I'm going to be a marine biologist and conquer all that. Well, that plays into the other trauma too, right? I mean, like that's the mindset. It's like, I'm just going to fight it and rise above it. Exactly. Huh. So you were going to master the ocean. Yes. Yeah.

From a boat or a lab, not in the ocean. Not in the ocean. I'm still scared of the ocean. Yes. From a boat or a lab. Not in the ocean. Not in the ocean. I'm still scared of the ocean. I'm terrified of the ocean. Isn't that funny? I can't even be in a pool. I can't see the bottom.

Or a pool at night. I know there's no sharks in there, but it's still creepy. Just to be in the ocean where you don't know what's under you, I can't take it. Yeah. just to be in the ocean where you don't know what's under you I can't take it yeah

so well it just sounds like so you're just out dancing in clubs and you get found yeah and then it's a whole new thing

but it seems like it's probably more fitting obviously to do this other thing it's better it's better yeah but it's

but it's it's better and I and I have no regrets I love my life but then at times there to be honest,

gosh, this is the first time I've seen it. There are times where I like, roads walk away because like projects like Fearless like really did a number on me. Yeah. You know, and it scared me number on me. Yeah, you know and It's scared me how

easily I Can go that deep it scared me that I understood The pain right without having any control over it like you could go there But you you it wasn't a safe place when it wasn't a safe place But like like Peter Weir was like he he was he taught me the concept

of technique right he did he never did any acting training never acting training and I said oh I I don't think that take was real

he goes why I said because I was faking it and he goes that's your job and I was like right but he goes no no no I don't think you fully get it yeah He goes, that's your job. And I was like, right.

But he goes, no, no, no. I don't think you fully get it. Yeah. And he said, you're so instinctual in acting and you're good at it. I go, I am? Like, I wasn't, I didn't even realize, you know, and like, I am? He goes, you don't know that? And I was like, and I couldn't answer him because he was right.

I didn't know him because he was right. I didn't know that. Yeah. And he says, but you, the way you fake it, that's your craft. Don't you get that? Yeah. And I was like, wow. And then what happened, instead of that giving me comfort and confidence, it pained me that I can fake pain?

Yeah. Oh, that's so depressing. Really? You know what I mean? Yeah. And I'm good. Yeah. Oh, that's so depressing. Really? You know what I mean? Yeah. And I'm good at it. Yeah. That's really depressing.

You know, and it just shook me. You know what I mean? And I remember having dreams that I kept dropping a baby because that's what my character was doing. This is after we wrapped. Yeah. You know, and I just was was like what is going on with me you know and i didn't tell anybody except my sister common yeah i didn't tell anybody and you know her her response was that's weird yeah not a professional therapist no and um you know and

you know same thing with frankie and johnny She played a woman who was shut down because she was a victim of domestic violence. What people miss out of that play, you know, that's why she just wants to have sex with no feeling in it. Right, right. You know, she doesn't want to get attached. Yeah. Completely understood that. Yeah. You know what I mean?

And then, you know, night after night after night after night after night. You know, and I remember telling Joe Montello one day, I go, I'm sick of doing this play. And he goes, really? You're doing so well. I go, why do people keep telling me that? And he didn't understand where I was coming from. Funny enough, Terrence McNally did. Terrence McNally blew my mind.

I remember one day he was so mad at me for something and everything. And he just looked at me and I go, what? And he goes, you get this, don't you? What's going on with you? Yeah. And I went, nothing. And he went, oh, Rose. And he hugged me.

And I pushed him away. I go, I'm fine. What are you doing? Get off of me. You're weird. And it wasn't until years later that I told him, remember that time? He goes, yeah. And I said, my God, you were right.

He goes, I've been waiting for you to come around and say that. I was like, wow. And he said, what, are you in therapy or something? I go, yeah. I was like, wow. Yeah. And he said, what are you, in therapy or something? I go, yeah.

Yeah, so it was, it's hard. And even with now and then, right? The new one, yeah. The new one. I, Gideon would always, we were filming in Spain, we were filming in Miami. And Gideon Raff would always look after me and Jelko Ivanovic because we were away and and stuff and uh one day he goes are you okay and I go I think I'm depressed and he goes why I go because Florida is depressed yeah and he went okay okay. And I go, yeah. And he's like, you want to hang out this weekend? I go, okay.

And like, he was so wonderful to me because he didn't know anything about my past. Yeah. And he was like, you know, like holding my hand throughout the process. Yeah. like holding my hand throughout the process. And then one day there was a scene where I talk about my brother, my characters talking about the brother killing himself. And later that day, I just couldn't stop crying, crying.

And he goes, what's wrong? And I go, she's getting in me. This can't happen again. And he goes, what? I go, she's getting in me. I come to set, I'm her. I leave set, I'm her. And he goes, oh, is go, she's getting in me. I come to set, I'm her. And he said, I'm her. And he goes, oh, is that your process, your method? I go, Gideon, you're not listening to me.

And I go, it's scaring me. And he goes, oh, wow. And I said, I need to have my sister here. I need to fly her in. And I need to call my doctor. And he goes oh this is serious I said yes

this is serious and everything and then he goes well you're doing good work I go why do people I'm falling apart over here you know

and yeah so this role was yes even when I start to talk about it I get that sorrow in my body. Well, that's what's, like you were naturally sort of trying to manage it, right? So when people say like, you know,

you had this reservoir of never-ending pain that you could just sort of tap into. It doesn't seem like you were faking it. It was just you had it in you. So you could tap into it wasn't it doesn't seem like you were faking it it was just you had it in you so you could tap into it you know and it almost is a way to avoid it right and then like it just became overwhelming and people were thinking that you had some sort of control over it and you do but i think the more work you do well that's what's interesting about like with this with now and then is that like you've done a lot of work right but still you know it's risky it's risky the the the thing that's different like from feel is that's how

many years ago yeah 93 wasn't it yeah um to now um is that i have tools right i know to call carmen yeah i know to call my my husband eric i know to call my doctor yeah you know now i can go okay and it allows me to breathe and release it yeah and and and understand where it needs to be placed this is my job yeah you know and and and the feelings that I have are real, but they are not. They are real for my job. And I know that sounds simplistic, but when you're in it, it's not that simple. Well, that's like the pond problem is that you still have the pond. I mean, they're not going to overtake you and you know what's up.

Yeah. But sometimes when you open the door to those feelings they can consume you yeah so puddle please don't i'm past the pond i'm sorry puddle puddle puddle um but you've done so much work but there are these one there are these specific ones that really stand out in your mind as risky. Like, because you work all the time. Yeah. You've been in 100 movies and all these TV shows, but you don't have this experience all the time. No.

Right. No. Sometimes you can just do the gig. It doesn't require this of you. Exactly. Right. Yes. Yeah.

Yeah. So, I mean, I've had jobs where it's never been an issue. Or maybe fun even? Yes. A lot of fun. Yeah, a lot of fun. Yeah, a lot of fun. But it's good because even though I had a piece of that sorrow with me after we wrapped Now and Then, I was able to exhale when I got home because that's part of my work too,

is to create a home that I never had you know the closest thing I had was at my aunt's house or my father's house but it still wasn't right you know right you can return back to something and then kind of have you know and kind of recover right from the work right and if you frame it like that it's not as menacing as this is just ever gonna go away exactly and I also learned that I can't recover by going home and then laying in bed for a couple days where I thought that that would be good for me right that doesn't work for me it could work for other people for me I need to have my day of

rest and then I need to get up yeah I need to get up and I need to go out in the sunshine yeah because part of that is the home, the children's home. It's like being so insulated. It's a false security to be indoors. Yeah. Because we were literally indoors and inside a compound, shut away from the real world. Sure. Yeah. You know, shut away from the real world. Sure. You know?

Yeah. And, you know, even when we went to a public school, they had their own school in the convent. And there was certain kids who they felt were gifted enough to integrate into society. Yeah. And they called public school, not public school. They would say, Rose, you have been picked for outside school. And then the nuns would say, oh, did you meet any of the outside kids? Do you have any outside friends? Oh, so it was really, yeah. It was like that, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when I think

I'm doing well by staying in the house too long, that's when everybody, my family and my husband, they're like, you need to go outside. Go play with the outside kids. Join the real world, you know? Don't just stay there. Yeah, in your head. Yeah. Yeah. Wow.

So how did you get resolution with your mother? I don't think that ever really came. I think if there was any type of resolution, she told me I had to forgive her when she was passing. And I go, in my head, I was like, I don't have to forgive you for anything. But what came out of my mouth was, I forgive you. You know?

Yeah. And we hugged and she cried and everything. And I'm glad that happened. Most people go, why? You know, because she used to beat the shit out of me too. And I said, because you got to give people a chance. Like, I want people to give me a chance. Like, I want another chance with people that maybe I was an asshole to

or maybe that I was shut down to or maybe I was like came off as intimidating and I'm actually not you know I mean yes I have a temper this and it's not but actually I'm a corny person you know I'm a nerdy corny yeah kid and still am and and you know it's that's why I did it because it's like, you're doing it for them. You're in a way, right. I mean,

you're offering her the, like the difference that if she's on her deathbed between you saying, I forgive you. And you saying, you know, go fuck yourself. Yeah. Why do you got to send them off like that for?

I mean, you still got to carry the burden of whether or not you really forgive them, but you let them off the hook at the last minute, which is, I think charitable. Yeah. Why not not you know what i mean it's like and she was mentally ill you know like so how how much can i really fault her right and it was a different time as well where the treatment wasn't great you know and she was dirt poor yeah there's a lot of things you know when you grow up you start to see the reality of the world, and your heart opens up, hopefully. I feel it a little bit, yeah.

It's hard. It's hard. Yeah, it's hard. Because when you come from a certain amount of whatever it is, the sensitivity that comes from abuse, if you open your heart, there's still a fear of being overwhelmed. Right.

You know, like you're not, you're going to lose control. Yeah. You know, because you don't have any real place to land emotionally. You weren't brought up with it. So like if you open your heart, like, you know,

who's going to take care of me? Yeah. It's weird that that stuff, you know, we get old and we're in, our brains are in our old bodies, but like it's still that that stuff, you know, we get old and we're in, our brains are in our old bodies, but like, it's still like, never changes, this core,

until you kind of get in there, right? Until you get in there, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, but, you know, it's, you know, I'm, I don't know. I hate when people say to me, to like,

well, aren't you glad what happened to you because you know it made you a stronger person and i my response to those people is fuck you you're validating the abuse right what do you mean oh oh it's a good thing that i got the shit beat out of me and i was abandoned and and not only you know shit beat out of me by the nuns, but also by my my birth mother and then also abused by my half sibling. And and oh, oh, yeah. Yeah. Great. Yeah. Yeah. Let's applaud that. Yeah. And thank God that I'm strong now that I survived by some miracle. You're going to call that strength. Yeah. And I said, let's let's look at it a different way. Right? Right.

Because the reason why Sister Panada hated me so much is because I had a strong will. I had a strong spirit. That was in me before her. Yeah. That was in me before my mother beat the shit out of me. Yeah. Right? So if those things didn't happen, imagine how much stronger I would have been. Imagine how much effective of a person, of a human being I would have been.

Because that's still me. Yeah. They didn't take that away yeah right yeah they dented it you know that's why i tell people i'm a dented can yeah you know what i mean you know but the goods are still inside sure well they they manifest they they changed it into to anger yeah for years yeah i think is what happened yeah and you could have been more loving had you been given the opportunity. Exactly. Right. You know, and it's like I'm stronger in, you know, despite what happened. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like, let's start saying that. Yeah. You know, instead of the other thing because it really, that gets my goal. Yeah. Like, it really gets my goal. Well, it's kind of dismissive. You know, when they're like, well, you should be grateful. You know grateful you know you're tough it's like you want to know the truth right they just want to you know say something exactly yeah or they can't they can't my experience is is that

they don't know what to say sure because it's just too much to hear yeah and that was another reason why i didn't tell my story. Not only because I was ashamed of it. That's what people don't understand, the effects of poverty, effects of abuse. It brings so much shame on you. And that's mentally debilitating. There's no way they can be empathetic with you because they don't understand the true hardship of what you go through, right? They can't be empathetic, but also it's just too much for them to bear.

Oh, yeah, of course. It's just too heavy for them. Yeah. You know, I tend to believe that, you know, people can handle things, but they don't want to take the time and they don't, you know, they don't see it as their sort of responsibility or their side of it to really take it in. And then also, even as somebody who's been through what you've been through, the shame, you may have worked through a lot of stuff, but you don't want to burden somebody. Right. So there's that part of it, too.

So it's a difficult equation where it's like you don't get it and i'm not going to give it to you because you know it's not yours to have but you know go fuck yourself for not understanding well you can look at it that way but yeah but it's it's just hard it's it's it's hard but on the the flip side of it thank god i I got help. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Thank God because, you know, what people like, I had no idea you went through this. You always seem so happy. I go, and I was. That was authentic. Sure.

You know what I mean? But when I wasn't happy, that was authentic too. It's just that I hid it from you. Yeah. You know? Yeah, yeah. And now I'm trying to show up as my whole self yeah and and it's been difficult like even sitting here talking to you about it it's difficult sure but i feel this need to

talk about it yeah you know to get it out of my system but also maybe maybe someone listening could could get to the place where i'm at quicker than i did yeah you know i mean because yeah like yeah i'll get the help get the help yeah that's what i mean yeah you know what i mean like my work got better because i got help yeah you know what i mean you have more control over it. I have more control. I keep getting more and more out of my way. Yeah. And then I can move forward. And even with the work, like even like I said, like now and then, I know how to manage it.

Sure. I know how to manage all of these things. And hopefully, you know, maybe someone else can get some inspiration or some shit. Sure. I mean, there has to be a reason why I'm going through this. Well, but you're also able to show up for yourself as a whole person. You know, you're not hiding. There's something about, you know, the transparency of copping to, you know, your shame and the abuse and all that.

Because it fills you up. you know, your shame and the abuse and all that, because it fills you up. You don't have this other side of you that you keep to yourself because you're ashamed of it or afraid of it or you think people can't handle it. You've got to walk through life, you know, at least feeling your whole self. Right.

Right? Right. That means something. It's a little more vulnerable and it's uncomfortable, but ultimately when something's taken from you as a kid you you walk in this weird sort of disjointed way like part of you you can't show to anybody and that part of you is very young and very scared but once i think you you get used to it it'll integrate right i hope so i sure hope so.

You know, but... Yeah. You know, it's... I don't know. It's still... A process. A process. Yeah, yeah. Well, you're doing good work.

Oh. Oh. You know, in the right way. In the real way. Yeah. So but what how are you feeling about work in general you're going to keep doing stuff do you have do you have things uh on the that you're going to you're working on now yeah we're working on developing certain things and for you yeah Yeah. And for other things. But I would say that I know deep down in my soul, even though there's moments where I have to walk away from this, it's too much, that I can't. That it serves its purpose for me. It's in me. It's the need that I have to express. Yeah. me it's in me it's the need that i have to express yeah i i love acting i love it even though it sometimes it tortures me i i love it because those moments of torture are very small compared to

all the other joys that it brings me and And even like when I sat and watched Now and Then, like you said, I felt a sorrow, but I felt great that, you know, the entire cast, we made magic. Yeah. And that fills my heart up with so much joy and love. And I, you know, I just have to keep doing these until it's served its purpose.

But I feel like I'm not finished yet. you have sort of control over your story, how is that not going to make the characters or the roles you take and play so much deeper and sort of more powerful in a way? Yeah, I hope so. I hope so. I look forward to that possibility, you know, because one thing that I did learn in therapy, like you said, it's like I've been acting all my life.

Right. It just wasn't on a screen or on a stage. Yeah. You know? Yeah. It was necessary for your survival. It was necessary for my survival. So I can play other people very easily.

Yeah. You know? In the sense that I can get into character. But now as a professional, you don't have to do it because you're terrified. Exactly. Yes, yes yes yes oh the nuns the nuns were the first that put me on stage oh really yes i was the lead easter bunny in the easter bunny parade yes i was the lead bunny yeah yeah and then um uh and and then the candy man that's where they taught me how to tap. Yeah. They put me on. They would do these stage productions during the holiday inside the convent.

They had a theater. The Catholic Church had money, let me tell you. Oh, sure. You know. Yeah. Even though they starved the shit out of us. Yeah. You know, they had money.

Yeah. And yeah, they're like Spike Lee's like, you never acted? No, no, no. And I wiped it out of my brain. Yeah. And it wasn't until I started therapy, I went, oh, my God, the nuns saw it. It's the fucking nuns. I got to give them the credit.

Oh, my God. You know? That's the worst moment. I got to give those fucking nuns credit. Yeah. Well, there you go. But there is something although we talked about you know how you know people can't understand but there is something about at least

acknowledging whatever good was there right it doesn't take away from the bad no but it it gives a little balance yeah i have to be with the good i have to stay with the good i have to acknowledge the good or else i'm not going to survive yeah of course you know what i mean like i'm not going to survive because you know to me what it what it says is that they didn't kill my spirit yeah yeah i was still able to enjoy life i had moments of enjoyment through it all through it all. Like they just couldn't crush me. Nobody could. Yeah. And I, you know, I was on, you know, that stage. I remember the Candyman can. I remember. I still kind of remember the routine.

Don't ask me to do it. Yeah. And I remember being on that stage when I allowed myself to remember, I should say. Yeah. How much joy I felt. That's beautiful. Yeah. Thanks for talking to me. Oh, my pleasure. Are we joy I felt. That's beautiful. Yeah. Thanks for talking to me.

Oh, my pleasure. Are we done? Sure. Oh, my God. We could talk more. No, God, this was torturous. I'm fucking with you. Thank you so much.

Thank you. It was really an honor to meet you. Thank you. Oh, same here. Same here. Wow. Okay. So take it easy for the rest of the day. What an amazing conversation.

I'm telling you to take it easy. Telling me to take it easy. As I said, The Flight Attendant is now in Season 2 on HBO Max, and you can watch our new show now and then, now streaming on Apple TV+. You can go to WTFpod.com. I'll be putting up some new dates this week. And this is some, you know, I don't know. I think it's some metal music.

I'm not sure why. And I'm sure I've played something very much like it not long ago. But it's a new guitar, and it sounds good. And I'm sure I played something very much like it not long ago, but it's a new guitar. It sounds good. And I'm tired. Thank you. Thank you. Boomer lives. Monkey. Lafonda. Cat angels everywhere.

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