WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1340 - Jen Statsky

Episode Date: June 16, 2022

When Jen Statsky and her collaborators were creating the show Hacks, they knew they needed to nail the portrayal of life in standup comedy because comics will quickly know if they got it wrong. Marc talks with Jen about how they did, indeed, nail it. They also talk about her work at The Onion and on shows like Parks and Rec, The Good Place, Broad City and Lady Dynamite. Plus, Jen and Marc talk about stuffing your feelings, getting better at acknowledging them, and understanding why growing up in Boston might lead you to ignoring them. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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have have been here before you've hung out a bit. You know what's happening. You know who I am. You know what the deal is. You know whether or not I annoy you or whether or not you like me or whether or not I annoy you and you like me. You know these things. It's been a long time now that we've been hanging out. You and I and that guy. It's been a while that we've all been here together us and those two over there it's been a you know well over a decade maybe 13 years almost since we've all been just sitting around talking and those guys over there and that lady all of us don't don't alienate them just because they're weird we're all fucking weirdos some people are toxic weirdos though i'd say the self-aware weirdos are where we're at i think that's where we need to be

self-aware weirdos not toxic weirdos evil weirdos you don't want to be an evil weirdo do you do you today on the show i talked talked to Jen Statsky. She is the co-creator and showrunner and writer of the show Hacks on HBO. She used to write for Parks and Rec, The Good Place, Broad City, Lady Dynamite, Late Night with Jimmy Fallon. She's a writer. She comes from the Boston area. So Jen's going to be here. It's a nice conversation, heavy.

I'll tease it a little bit from here. Only child. And, you know, I get a little curious about only children. But besides that, tomorrow night, I'll be in Durham, North Carolina, at the Carolina Theater, then Charlotte, North Carolina, on Saturday at the Knight Theater. And on Sunday, I am in Charleston, South Carolina, at the Charleston Music Hall

go to wtfpod.com slash tour for all dates and ticket info I am exhausted it's weird because I was walking with Kevin Nealon and um I just I'll be honest with you I'll be honest with you I don't want to tip it but I did Kevin Nealon's hikey show. I don't even know if he was able to get what we needed. He took him. He'd been bothering me about this for months to do the hike show where we walk and he's got a camera on a thing, a selfie stick. And we do a little interview and we hike outdoors.

So I had him come over to this side of the place. We go up to the hike up here and it's midday because he had to do something with his kid and you know it was hot we were sweating he'd forgotten the batteries that he had charged for the camera we didn't know if that was going to hold up he's got a drone that i've never worked with a drone before it's very exciting exciting in the way that like what am i seven can i use the can i play with it can i play with it can i can i can i can i can i control it i didn't say that but that was going on inside of me it's kind of exciting to see the drone but he was a you know he's a one-man show the this kneeling guy with

the camera and the drone and we're doing stuff and we're talking and it was nice it was good to see him he's a funny guy it was funny to see him wrestling with a drone and dealing with the aggravation of being his own production team. That was funny. I don't know that he would see it that way. I found it to be amusing. He kept saying thank you for being patient. And I kept thinking, no, this is the funniest thing I've seen in months.

But he said, you know, what is the most exciting thing you've done in your life? And, you know, it's like there's so many exciting things. i so many exciting things and it's sort of a day-to-day thing i've had a great some great accomplishments but like to be honest with you day before yesterday or two days ago i watched some of an altman movie with uh kit and then there was some really connected good sex. And then after that, it was like, let's walk to Baskin and Robbins and have an ice cream cone. And that was like the best ice cream cone I can remember having in my adult life. Is that weird?

And the sex was good, too. The movie, not great. It was Buffalo Bill and the Indians, and we didn't get far into it. It was okay, but I think it requires some patience we didn't have but that ice cream cone it was just a chocolate dipped waffle cone with a scoop of vanilla and a scoop of gold medal uh whatever that's and i don't go who goes to baskin robbins that often but the weird thing is i'm of a certain age when i remember when baskin robbins was the ice cream place. That was it. That was like, we're going to go to get ice cream out at Baskin Robbins.

I think if you're on the East Coast, you had a friendlies here and there. But where I lived at Baskin Robbins, and it's lit the same way, and it's set up the same way. And right when you walk in and it smells the same, there's that journey back. And the woman who was there was giving me these scoops that were monstrous. Like I was watching her scoop and I had a moment where I was like, I think that's it. But I stifled that immediately.

I was like, all right, that's what you're going to do. We're going to do it and I'll eat fucking all of that. But it was just that kind of sex ice cream combo. I mean, that's all you got for me. I'm not a drug person. So you're dealing with caffeine, you're dealing with endorphins released during sex, and you're dealing with sugar. And that was just, they were all going. And it was magical. This is not an ad for Baskin Robbins. So look, I'm experimenting. I have this list I wrote down on a piece of paper. It just says trauma, tolerance, empathy. Interesting list, I know. I could explain it more. But I've been experimenting with being empathetic for the worst of us with the worst of us, because some of the worst of us, some of the broken minded grievance and blame junkies who are moving this country more towards something that no longer resembles a democracy. I'm not being political here.

I'm just saying I'm trying to be empathetic because it'd be hard for me to be totally empathetic with someone who grew up in India because I don't know what that experience is. But I grew up with these fucking fascists. They are my neighbors. They're the kids I knew in school. We're all of the same. But and I understand the thinking. I want to believe things. I want to believe things. I make connections. I make connections of things that happen to me in almost a conspiratorial, mystical way. But I know myself. I am self-aware of the way my brain works and how it's broken and whether and when I have to say no to my mind. Sometimes my mind does things and I'm like, no, we're not doing that. Nope. You stop it right now, mind. You stop it right now. We won't have any of that shit.

That goes nowhere. Good brain. Nowhere good. But I get it. I get it. Look, mind. You stop it right now. We won't have any of that shit. That goes nowhere good, brain. Nowhere good. But I get it. I get it. Look, man, I've been having some shit go down over here. There's some signs. There's some moments. There's some indicators. If I want to look at them like that, right? I mean, you guys know, had a coyote in the yard the other day, hanging out, just sleeping, looking at me. What's a coyote mean? What does it mean? Look it up. What does a coyote mean? Spiritual, mystical, Native American. Could mean good, could mean bad, could mean something is going to happen that you don't expect at all. Could mean a lot of things. All those things could happen also without the coyote, but let's just

assume that the coyote is an indicator. Then a couple of days, maybe the next day, I thought the coyote ate the rabbit. The rabbit had not been eaten. The rabbit was just sitting there on my stoop. The rabbit. So there's a coyote visitation. There's a rabbit visitation. All right. Do you understand what's happening?

It's all happening. These, you know, what does that mean? What does the rabbit mean? Why do they do? Why is there so many birds around? What's with the bird nests? Why? What are they trying to communicate?

Why is my house surrounded by electric wildlife? And then I went on a hike the other day and I got stung by a fucking bee. I got stung by a bee. What is that about? I can't even remember the last time I got stung by a bee. It's kind of like the Baskin-Robbins thing. It happens when you're a little kid. It's very consistent.

But I wasn't allergic. I didn't start choking or breaking out in hives. But I got stung by a bee. And I knew it was a bee. And I reached around my back. And I was like, I felt it. And I grabbed the bee. And then I saw it crawling on my leg with a big kind of string of ooze from its ass.

Because it done its duty. It done its job. It made its kamikaze mission on my it done its duty. It done its job. It made its kamikaze mission on my back to no end. It meant nothing. Right? I mean, what a waste of a stinger. Here's the point.

What does it mean? Coyote plus rabbit plus bird plus, you know, getting stung by a bee. How does it all come together? Well, I know the answer isn't the Jews are in on it. Okay? That's what I'm saying. Had nothing to do with the Jews. I'm a Jew. Maybe I'm being targeted somehow.

But see, even that's a fucking stretch. The point is, if you're going to string together a bunch of random things, even if they seem like they sound like they make sense, and they could be connected, it's just an attempt to have a context, to have an explanation, to have some sort of chain of events that explains things, but may be completely desperate and have nothing to do with each other and also could be complete bullshit. And the Jews had nothing to do with it.. And also could be complete bullshit. And the Jews had nothing to do with it. That's all I'm telling you.

Like maybe some Native American spirits for me. But I mean, rethink it. No brain. No, those aren't connected things. They have no meaning whatsoever. Hey, brain. I just put a bunch of bullshit into your engine disregard disregard the bee sting the coyote the rabbit the birds

all right the jews will not replace me because i'm a jew, right? That's what the beast said to me. Look, hey, listen, it was great talking to Jen Statsky. It was a, cause I don't talk to a lot of writers specifically about writing and where they come from. And yeah, but it was, it was good and it was enjoyable. And I liked the show. It's weird because as a comic, you don't know if you're going to like a show about comics. Because usually you don't. But they were very specific about the life of this particular comic and the backstory. And it was, I think, on the money. And remains on the money in a lot of ways.

As a comic, I'm not thinking like, this is bullshit. So anyways, season two of Hacks just finished. You can watch both seasons on HBO Max. This is me talking to the co-creator of that show, Jen Statsky. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing.

With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store

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I mean, like, now I'm used to it, you know? Yeah. I'm an East Coaster, and I do... Where? From? Right outside Boston. Where? Milton.

I went to school in Milton. You did? Curry College. You went to Curry College? For a year. No way. I did. I went to Curry College for a year.

I was a... My summer camp where I worked was at Curry College. What kind of summer camp? It was a YMCA day camp where I was a counselor. And we used the grounds at Curry. No kidding. That's so funny that you went to Curry. I was there, yeah.

I was there for, I kind of blew it in high school. And I scrambled my senior year. I decided I got to go somewhere. And I ended up at Curry. And I don't, I have memories of it pretty good. I mean, it was okay. I don't remember learning anything. But I remember.

You went to BU though, right? You did a year there. I went to Curry for a year. And then I did four more at BU. Yeah, the five-year program. Yeah, I did the five-year program. I want to take that last year kind of easy. But Milton, that's pretty fancy.

You know, it is fancy. There's a very fancy private school there milton academy right which i drove through the grounds my way to public school i did not go to milton academy i went to public school in milton but milton is a weird there's half of the town that is like super fancy right super wealthy yeah and then there's another half that is is not really i mean i haven't listened i haven't lived there in a long time a long time but i was probably in school there before you were born i let's see i was there 81 82 that's when i was in milton okay i was born in 85 okay so i just missed you just missed each other would have been fun would have been fun to hang. But then it was like a few miles away from Mattapan, right? Didn't you just drive-

Yeah, very close to Mattapan, yeah. I just don't, I kind of, I just remember it was a big deal to like, it wasn't, you had this idea that when going to school in Boston, but it was a schlep. Yeah. It's not like you just go to Boston. No. It was far. Public transportation was not great.

Out to Milton. No. It was far. Public transportation was not great. Out to Milton? Yeah. It wasn't an easy thing to just, even though Milton is 15 minute drive into Boston, as a kid, the public transportation was not great. So like I didn't get to go into Boston a ton. I did because my dad is from Southie and is very- Yeah. So we would-

What's his story? He was a- From Southie? He still is. He's alive. Yeah. From Southie. Irish guy? No. What's his story? He was a- From Southie? He still is. He's alive. Yeah, from Southie. Irish guy? No, Polish.

Polish Catholic. Huh. That was happening in Southie? Yeah, there's like a small Polish population in Southie. But yeah, he, born and raised in Southie. Wow. His parents owned like a corner store. Very, very working class. Yeah. like didn't finish high school, became a building inspector for the city of Boston.

Your dad did? Yeah. Did he talk like he was from Southie? He has a crazy thick accent. Like so thick that when I moved into NYU my freshman year, the roommate who I was assigned to couldn't understand him. Yeah. the roommate who I was assigned to couldn't understand him. Really?

Yeah. He came in and she had a photo that she had put up of her and her boyfriend, I guess, at the time. And he was like, ah, is that your hugger? Is that your hugger? And she looked at him and I was like, he's saying, is that your hugger? Which is like, you know, it's like Southie. They have all these like weird terminology.

Boston slang is the weirdest. It's really weird. But he's so that.'s like jimmy's for your ice cream yeah which is not which apparently is a racist term is it really yeah i think i had no idea but but that's boston for you there's so much stuff we grew up and there was some other one there was some other one that was weird for soda or i can't remember i can't like there Like there was. Yeah. It's like the fighter. So your dad was in. It's very like all those cliche Boston movies I watch. And I'm like, this is exactly.

They get it right. Yeah, they do. They really do get it. Do you judge the actors who do Boston accents pretty harsh? It's a tough one. It's a tough one. I would turn down a role if I was expected to do. Do you think.

How is your Boston accent? I could probably do it. I can't drop right into it, but I'd have to think about it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I spent, I spent a bit of time there. Yeah. It's, I don't judge it too harshly, but it does very much stick out to me when there's a bad one. Sort of annoying. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, uh, yeah, I was there for a long time. I was in Somerville and I had definitely had a profound impact on me. I grew to resent resent uh new england townies fairly deeply well that's kind of my experience too is that even though i'm from there and i do have some you know real affection some of my best friends still live there and we're i the thing about it the chip on the shoulder is a very real thing for people

in boston i don't exactly know why, but I felt that very strongly. They just have it. They just have it. I don't know what it is. I wonder if it's an Irish thing. It might be because it might be. It's just some sort of extension of the general historical chip on the Irish shoulder. It's just sort of the American version of it.

It might be. Yeah, because Milton, where I grew up, had the highest per capita Irish Catholic population in America. I thought you were going to say chip on the shoulders. The highest per capita. Yeah. They did a study and the highest per capita chips on shoulders. So it was Irish mostly? Super Irish.

Super Irish Catholic. Yeah. It's so odd to that. I had this. I got very, like I started doing comedy there and I spent a lot of time there and I began, I got kind of afraid of them. Yeah. Of like, you know, the Boston Irish because they were intense and it was scary. And it was weird because the first time I went to Ireland, I saw a lot of Irish people

that looked much like the Irish in Boston. So I was naturally kind of nervous. PTSD. But they're also sweet. Yeah. They're very, yes. I've been to Ireland they're the sweetest but they look the same as the ones in Boston don't they yeah yeah for sure for sure it freaked me out but it's it's a love-hate thing for me because the chip

on the shoulder bothers me but then at the same time there's a toughness there that I sure genuinely love oh yeah they're characters too yeah your dad sounds like one of those characters they're not hiding much, and they're characters, too. Yeah, yeah. Your dad sounds like one of those characters. He's an absolute character. They're not hiding much. I mean, they're very forward-facing. Yes, yeah, yeah. What about your mom? Is she from there? So my mom was from High Park.

Do you know High Park? Yeah. It's like, yeah. So she kind of, I mean, my mom was, she passed away a few years ago. Sorry. Oh, thanks. Yeah. Not, like, yeah, pretty mentally ill, to be honest.

Oh, really? Yeah. Yeah. Her and my dad had a very not ideal relationship, though married to the day she died. No kidding. Like, what do you mean mentally ill? Like, what kind? She, like, pretty, like, as I as i got older she kind like it was kind of

an agoraphobia it was kind of like a not leaving the house so the family didn't quite identify it as mentally ill until retrospect or no no i'm identifying it but i'm the only one all right okay because my dad you know again a character but there is no uh discussion of feelings or no emotional language other than excitement and anger exactly exactly so so it's and i'm an only child so it's like that funny that i'm the only one living in reality oh right some degree oh and so your mom was just a little freaked out yeah she was just a little you know there was definitely undiagnosed like bipolar oh my god something going on where it was yeah it was just not wow not the best and you're the only one you were the only child the only child yeah and you had to get out because it's so weird i was watching

uh that i finally got around to uh watching some of that george carlin doc last night well there's just some like he's irish new york you know and there there's something about that that capacity to stuff feelings yeah that seems to be a catholic thing uh certainly an irish catholic i don't want to generalize but no it's super and he was highly aware of it and still couldn't do anything about it yeah it's very you know the being taught the language of of feelings and how to talk about these things is very, it's very rare. And it's only a recent thing, I think. And so, yeah, I mean, I don't know.

How are you at it? I've had to get good at it. Because I had to, it was such a kind of fraught zero through 18, you know, that i left i was like oh i really like you were not socialized yeah yeah i yeah but like i i was like i was like oh i need i need therapy pretty bad a feral catholic like from just being in the house you didn't know how to yeah i had to be socialized put in a pen with other other animals to socialize other emoting people yeah i uh yeah i don't know how to. Yeah, I had to be socialized, put in a pen with other animals to socialize. Other emoting people. Yeah.

Yeah, and I don't know. Just talking about it, I'm not sure how good I am at communicating it. I think I'm more of a, I'm like, okay, I'm okay. I'm good. But there are people I talk to. Yeah. I mean, you only need a couple, right? You can't just run around emoting all the time.

No, no, no. No, that wouldn't be good either. No. Yeah. My brother's like that, where you're just sort of like, dude, just keep't be good either. I imagine. Yeah, I was very, you know, my dad worked a lot. He was a building inspector, like I said, but he also was a bartender and just like, also I think, you know. Did he work at a bar called Patty's? I'm sorry.

He worked at Am Ryan's. Okay. Am Ryan's in South Boston, if anyone's listening. So he stayed in there. He lived in Milton. So that's the thing is that he lived, we lived in Milton. They moved there and I think probably because the thing is that he lived, we lived in Milton. They moved there. And I think probably because the schools were better and stuff.

But he never left behind that Southie boy thing, you know, like. So you knew the Bulger brothers and grew up with all that shit. Yeah, he grew up with all that. He like a couple of. Did you watch Black Mass? That's a good question I got to ask. Like a couple of years ago a uh this was so bizarre i still don't understand how it happened like a a postmate came to my door yeah order i ordered

food and my husband was like hey uh jen the postmate wants to talk to you and i was like talk to me well he's got questions about the order what are we talking about and it was this guy that my dad had like i guess you know my dad spent a lot of time around the the projects in southie and he was kind of like this surrogate father figure i guess to guys there and this guy who actually was part of mark walberg's like entourage sort of the group of guys that entourage then was based on yeah was telling me that my dad used to like come and pick them all up in his truck and he was like yeah these guys didn't have shoes and your dad took us to buy

sneakers and and i'm just like thank you for my food and i still happen in la that happened in la and i don't know and it's a it's that really interesting thing right of like he wasn't super present for me in the ways I wish he had been yet. I'm hearing about this whole other. Right. Right. The street thing. The street thing.

Yeah. I think the pull of that was hard for him to shake. Yeah. And I, I get, there's an understanding. I mean, he must've been,

I don't know, maybe he was just baffled by a daughter. I think he, yeah, I think, I think he was, he was baffled by my mom and how to maybe handle that. And then probably baffled by a daughter.

And baffled by the idea of marriage. And it didn't seem like he got it or wanted to get it. It just all happened. It happened. And then he'd go back to selfie and work. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah. He just felt.

But had a second life out in the suburbs. Yeah. For years I was like, do I have a sister or brother? I don't know. I don't, maybe I still do.

Is he still around, your dad? Yeah, he's still around. He's still around. And you guys get on all right? We get on all right. Yeah. Yeah.

It's, there's, you know. Yeah, I do. Yeah. You know, you go through periods. Yeah. And then they get really old if you're lucky and then you kind of got to go suck it up and deal with them yeah exactly yeah but but yeah i just so growing up you know it was it was a lot of me alone watching tv so you did that were you you know so you're kind of the latchkey watch the

comedy person watched a lot of tv also just like leaned i think the lack of kind of the latchkey, watched a comedy person? Watched a lot of TV. Also just leaned, I think the lack of structure that way made me lean super hard into achievement and school and just became hyper-focused on that stuff. Oh, yeah? But were you a comedy person? I wasn't doing comedy. No, but when you were a kid, were you watching it? I loved it. Yeah, Nick at Night, Mary Tyler Moore Show was my thing. Really? That was the thing? I wasn't doing comedy. No, but when you were a kid, were you watching it? I loved it. Yeah. Nick at Night, Mary Tyler Moore Show was my thing.

Really? That was the thing? I was obsessed. Yeah. That was a huge influence on me. So I was watching a ton of comedy. And then when I got to New York, when I went to NYU, I started discovering more like watching stand-ups I loved and watching, doing UCB and stuff. So when you graduate, you went to high school and you didn't do anything there?

You didn't do any performing or anything? I didn't do any performing or comedy there. I, like, wrote. I was an editor for, like, the school newspaper. And I, like, wrote. Breaking the big stories? Yeah. Kind of the Woodward and Bernstein of Milton High School.

No, I was doing, like, looking back, they were humor columns. Yeah, if we I'm using quotes around humor. But so you did. But looking back, like you don't remember in the in the moment writing things that were supposed to be funny. I don't think so. No. Like, is that is that weird? Like, I don't think I knew at the time that I liked comedy or that I was trying to do comedy that was your angle yeah exactly yeah um but yeah that was kind of what i i wrote for the paper things like that that was the closest i got to any sort of comedy in high school and you like like you've created this picture for me that uh you had friends and stuff yeah yeah okay the home life seemed a little dark the home life is a little dark the the i had wonderful best friends who who were really like surrogate family to me who are still you know some of my closest friends they're still my best friends oh yeah and but but yeah the it was an interesting kind of there was this like home life thing happening and there were no one really got what was going on with it and it was a very like i think i also used humor in that way very common

thing kids do of like no no pay attention to this i'll be funny or i'll do this i just distract from what's going on were you afraid to bring people home yes i wasn't allowed to bring people home by who by my mom oh yeah was that a germ thing or part of the agoraphobia thing? It was a, she was so hyper, it was agoraphobia, but she was so hyper focused on appearances. She was very, a big part of how her agoraphobia developed over the years was she was super, she would spend hours like putting on makeup and like caring a lot about appearance. And so it was very tied to like, oh, oh the house it's about how the house looks and things have to look right sounds like ocd too huh i think some ocd yeah yeah um so it was very but then there was also

you know there were they the my parents they got into fights where like the cops would come and so it was it was no booze just weirdness there was there was booze yeah yeah and so that was also part of it of like neighbors would call exactly yeah that's the worst and then you know your neighbors who are kids at school with you and so it was it was kind of it created this need in me to deflect you know go like no no look at me being funny or look at me doing well in school look at me doing sports something like that just kind of get into the control your life mode exactly yeah chaos yeah chaos i think kind of from talking to people who grew up in similar

things like you either go towards more chaos or you go hyper opposite control and i went very yeah it's like booze guys you know people grew up in boozy, crazy homes. Yeah. Either they go boozy or they never touch the shit. Right. Exactly. Well, whatever, whatever, something picked the right one. You got lucky.

Who knows how that can go? Yeah. Yeah. It's, I mean, it's a, it's a more inward turmoil. I think the control route. I guess that's true. I guess like, yeah, if you don't need the attention, you know, or you don't seek it in that way of like, Oh, I'm crazy. Right. Right. Right. It's yeah. So you went, you got into NYU and got into NYU. Yeah. I yeah. I really wanted to go to New York. My dad had taken me to New York, and we had spent a weekend there.

Did you know you wanted to study theater or art or whatever? I knew I wanted to write. When I got there, I was thinking maybe more journalism. Oh, really? Yeah, and I did a few journalism classes the first year. Not funny. Bored out of my skull. So boring.

And so then I also had loved television and so started taking film and TV classes. And that's sort of where I- Just to see? Just to see how it felt? Yeah, just to see. And that felt much more correct. How did that start? What are those classes like at NYU?

When you're just like, oh, I i'm gonna take a film and tv class there i mean some of it is like theory just like watching films and talking about them and then and then you get into the more like doing short film making short films with other people in the class happens pretty quickly it happens the second year of the program that you're making like short films. So you were able to see like pretty quickly that like, oh, this is how this stuff is made. Yeah, yeah. It does throw you in to it pretty quickly of like, okay, go make a thing and go screen it for the class and get feedback on it.

I did, yeah. I learned it also was a learning. Are they hilarious? They're really good. I've been asking my agents to find a platform. I know I just won an Emmy, but could you get that short out that I did in my year? really good. I've been asking my agents to find a platform. Yeah. I know I just won an Emmy, but could you get that short out that I did in my year that I shot in Washington square park with stop action?

Yeah, no, but they were, it was instructive. I remember, I mean, God, if I watch them now,

it would be horrified. Of course. But I do remember like you had to make like three or four short films. Like for the, it was a class called sight and sound. Yeah. Yeah. And you had to make like three or four short films like for the it was a class called sight and sound yeah yeah and you had to make four films i did like three that were like funny supposed to be funny and then uh the fourth one i remember the teacher said why don't you challenge yourself and do something that's more dramatic not comedy and i was like sure and i did it and

it was something where this couple was i don't i don't even remember but but he they're like playfully flirting in the street and then his hat gets tossed and he goes into the street to get his hat and he gets hit by a car wow and the whole class burst out in the laughter because it was just i think maybe they were like she makes the funny things this is hilarious or maybe it's objectively so funny because it's so insane but that's so funny

that was your idea when you said to be more dramatic exactly no problem no you want drama he dies

going to get his hat and just leaves her standing there exactly she sees the whole thing it was so bad it was so bad but it did make me go like

I guess I'll just lean into this other but I don't know it's so funny it was so bad but it did make me go like i guess i'll just lean into this other but it's so funny that people would assume like that a teacher like comedy is the hard thing yeah yeah drama like i mean it's i don't know that drama was hard for me i couldn't do it i came up with the guy running in the street but i mean i i guess i it just seems like a there's a lot more options with drama. Yeah. Right? Yeah.

And that comedy, it's got to be funny. Yeah, I do think that sometimes when I'm writing, there is this natural barometer of like, okay, is this scene funny? Yeah. And I do sometimes wonder if you're writing a drama, I guess it's just, is this scene interesting? If you're like, can we take this joke out it's like it's not reading right yeah yeah it's almost like i don't know if it's the opposite but yeah things gotta they gotta uh um land differently right yeah but yeah but there's a lot of drama at least in hacks there's yeah no there is there is so where does that take you

where does nyu like where do you land who Like, in these movies, were there any people in your class that we know, actors? I always like hearing when they're actors in short films, we're sort of like, yeah, John Turturro did my short film. No, no one that was, like, in my shorts. I was the same year as some, like, the Olsen twins and Lady Gaga were my years. Really? Yeah. Did you know Lady Gaga? I hung out with her a couple times.

We had a friend in common, and so we were in the same circle. So I've been at the same hangout as Stephanie Germanotta, but never really had one-on-one interaction. And I'm going to assume she doesn't know. That you hung out with her i'm gonna but what was she doing there she was singing she was singing yeah do you remember singing her did you see her singing i remember her performing at the bitter end yeah yeah because the the our connection was this guy alex who was a friend or like friendly with the group of guys

i was hanging with and he was her uh either drummer or guitarist in that band yeah oh in college in college? In college, yeah. Because she's kind of amazing, right? She's incredible. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, when you go to see her in college, did you sense that?

You were like, there's something incredibly special about this person. Really, isn't it? Like, you do just, you know, sometimes there's people you're like, oh, I didn't realize they were going to be something. But she, her voice alone, it's hard to not yeah there's something incredibly that's so funny special here in comedy it's always sort of like that guy you never never that is true rarely do you see the gift right but do you think that's because we are comedians so we're bringing something else to it or do you like because because i can look at

a musician and have that feeling with no attachment to it. But I wonder if... Even an actor, in a way. Right, yeah. No, because comedy, you know, comedians have to, some guys get funny. I mean, you got to figure it out for yourself. I mean, a lot of times, like, first five years,

you're kind of this unformed thing as a stand-up and you're kind of doing, like, your version of somebody else or a number of people or but it takes a while For people that kind of like step into themselves. Yeah, because I think not unlike music only, you know, it's a different skill You know, you got a it takes a while to become who you are right voice. Yeah. Yeah, where's an actor? You know, you just got to be whatever that is right you have to be present with what you're given for a script. Yeah, and you're also, I've always been very struck by that thing. People say that when you first start out,

you're kind of just imitating the people who you love and admire. And it does, it takes a while. Inadvertently, in a way. Yeah, inadvertently. And then you have to kind of lock into your own voice. Oh, yeah, when I was coming up, there was about a dozen Dave Vettels around. And then there was a handful of Hedbergs.

It just kind of... Yeah. You saw certain people who had distinct voices ripple through the newbies. Right. I have no idea what's going on out there now. All I know is there's a lot of them. And I'm not sure that they're all funny. Right.

Do you try to keep up with it? I can't. I mean, I go work. I mean, I go work. I mean, I work at the comedy store most of the nights I'm home. Yeah. So if people are coming through there, I see them. But I'm not going to Mike's. And I'm not to see who the comers are, you know?

Sure, sure. And I guess I could watch more specials. I don't. And I tend to be a bit of a cranky old guy. I get that. When I'll watch five minutes and be like, nah, not gonna do it. Right, right. Not ready.

So what was your first gig coming out of there? What did it set you up to do? So I went to NYU, did film and TV. So, yeah, I went to NYU, did film and TV, and then when I graduated, I had been an intern at The Onion. What version of that? Who was there? Who was running the place? So it was. Was Hanson still there?

Yeah. Yeah. Wait, Todd Hanson? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So I was an intern, not for the paper, even though I ended up writing headlines for the paper, but I was an intern for their like web video department. So that relatively new department when you were there? Yeah, it was pretty new that they were bought by someone who said like, oh, you should start doing web video.

That must have been right when they were bought. Yeah, exactly. Right. So I was an intern there and met some people there. And so my first year out of NYU, I worked at a coffee shop. Where? What one? Grey Dog Coffee.

Oh, yeah? Where's that? Down on? It's in a bunch of, when I was there, they had like three locations. Is there one in Soho? Yeah. There was one in Soho. There was one in West Village.

It's still there, right? Yeah. They have a few. They're still there. I haven't been in forever. But there was one in University Place by Union Square. There was one in West Village, one in Chelsea, one in Soho. How's the onion work?

How did that work over there? So it was- In terms of writing. Yeah. It was, for me, I don't know exactly how it worked with the editorial people who were on staff, but I was a freelance headline writer which meant every week you would send in like i don't know 25 so they're almost like just writing jokes yeah just writing jokes someone else would fill in the text yes i think the i think the actual

staff writers were the ones writing the stories whereas freelance writers like myself were just sending in headlines oh so that's where it starts. It can all start with the headline. Then you just fill it in. And I'm sure those writers were pitching like, oh, this is the headline and the full piece. But for me, it was just headlines you would send in every week. And then you would get it sent back to you of what they chose or didn't. That's exciting.

It was. Because I was a huge Onion fan as a NYU kid. And so it was very exciting. When they had the boxes all new york and you could just go get a free onion it was pretty funny very funny and very funny what was the video trip so then the video trip was they hired um this guy will graham yeah uh to run their web videos and it was basically the kind of the same you know humor and and brand of of the onion but done with you know under the guise of a news network right news network oh i kind of remember that yeah yeah yeah that's what we were going for i kind of remember that i miss everything though i know yeah and so I did that. I was an intern there. I worked at a coffee shop for like a year.

I was doing a bunch of comedy in different ways. I was doing improv and sketch and even trying stand-up, which I was very bad at. Where were you doing the improv and sketch? UCB. Taking classes? Taking classes at UCB. With who? Oh, man.

I'm trying to think of. Bobby Moynihan was my first teacher. Oh, really? He was great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wonderful guy trying to think of... Bobby Moynihan was my first teacher. Oh, really? He was great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wonderful guy. Shannon O'Neill.

But taking classes and then doing like a... At the old one, the theater? That used to be... Exactly, the theater in Chelsea. And going there a ton. The dirty theater. It used to be a dirty theater. Dirty, under the grocery store. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah. But seeing a ton of comedy there. Just like so so so much improv who was at it then who were the big names the big names who surfaced out of that period

well the was it the Krolls and the Aziz yeah Kroll Aziz Jeselnik I remember seeing a bunch they had like a doing stand up

yeah doing stand up they had a Monday night show called Whiplash where I remember sure Whiplash is still around is Whiplash still around I think it might still be around yeah

I would go every Monday I still around? I think it might still be around. Yeah. I would go every Monday. I saw Mulaney, I think. Sure. Yeah. Like, but the, you know, I was such a huge Amy Poehler fan. So it being her theater and the chance to like go on Sunday night for ASCOT and see like her. Did you see her?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And Tina. Yeah. Those people were like, that was to me the coolest thing. So what year is that? I mean, yeah, yeah. And Tina. Yeah. Those people were like, that was, to me, the coolest thing. So what year is that? I mean, gosh, 2007.

I was in college 2004 to 2008. Okay. All right. And the stand-up thing, you didn't take? No. It's so hard, man. But you tried, huh? It's so hard.

I give you a lot of credit. You gave it a whirl? Gave it a whirl. It just wasn't, it's so so it was so lonely to me yeah i really like collaborating i really like working with the healthier thing and i think your longevity and your odds are better when you collaborate as opposed to just be a stubborn idiot who goes by goes it alone you know definitely limits your possibilities. But I, you know, it's also like some of my favorite comedians like are stand-ups. And what they do is so special and important.

So I commend the art form. It is just not for me because it's too hard. Well, yeah, I mean, I guess, what was it hard for you exactly? Because you probably could write jokes, right? Yeah, I was writing. It was very like one line yeah yeah yeah yeah it's just figuring out how who's delivering them yeah i think what it was and i really didn't even give it that much of a try i think like i don't know i think the level two

probably what it is is like we're all working out our our shit through very every part of our life and like i think growing up the way i did i was looking more for structure and family and people that way that makes sense and so even though i do think there is a stand-up community and uh you know it's forced upon us a reluctant stand-up community like i really think what I needed more than anything was people, this surrogate kind of family. Sure. People around me to collaborate with. And feel like I was part of a unit that way. As opposed to competing.

I think, yeah, because I think I had felt on my own for a long time. Yeah. I imagine. Yeah. Well, only kid thing is kind of, I always, I always make assumptions about only kids and I'm always wrong. Like. The, like,'m always wrong. They're selfish.

They don't know how to share. No, no. My thing is, it was always sort of like, were your parents more worried because there was not another one? Right. And none of them have really said yes. Yeah. Yeah. No.

Yeah. I don't think that. It wasn't my experience, for sure. Because that would be my thoughts. Like, you're it. Yeah. Don't die. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If there's three, I can lose one. Yeah. I don't think that. It wasn't my experience. Because that would be my thoughts. Like, you're it. Yeah. Don't die. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

If there's three, I can lose one. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. So you did that, did The Onion, then you move on. When did you start doing TV stuff? So I did The Onion. I was an intern, and then they hired me to be an assistant when they, there were two very short-lived shows, one on IFC and one on Comedy Central that the Onion did.

Onion News Network was the IFC one and Onion Sports Dome was on Comedy Central and I was the writer's assistant for that. So you're in the room typing. In the room typing. Listening to a bunch of men make jokes. Exactly. Actually, they were, I got to say, all the Onion Sports Dome writers were very, they were all men, don't get me wrong exactly actually they were i gotta say all like all the onion sports film writers were very they like they were all men don't get me wrong but they were very sweet well-behaved men but um so yeah did that and then kind of had an interesting thing happen where

you know then this becomes like 2010 2011 and twitter becomes a place where people are writing jokes, just like little one liner things, which I was pretty used to doing from, you know, doing onion headlines. And this 2010, this 2010 too. Yeah.

So Twitter has been like two years or yeah, I guess 2008, 2009. I'm not sure exactly, but it, but it was that time when like, like Rob Delaney, for example,

was like, you know, was hitting huge. Doing his weird. Yeah, doing his Twitter jokes. And so I started doing that and getting a little bit of attention that way. And when The Onion ended, like when those seasons were up, I said, like, I think it's time to move to L.A. Like, I want to be a TV writer. It feels like even though I love New york i've been here a while it feels like i have a better chance

of becoming a tv writer out in la yeah uh and so i moved to la in january of 2011 and uh in i think february no march yeah i get a dm from 80, the head writer of Late Night with Jimmy Fallon at the time saying, hey, I like you on Twitter. Do you want to submit a packet or whatever? I did. I got the job. Go back to New York. I go back to New York three months later from when I packed up.

80 Miles. So it was at the beginning of the Fallon run? Yeah, it was pretty close to the beginning. It was like 2000 i think fallon took over in like 2009 this was 2000 so it was like two years into the run wow who's in the writer's room um at the time it was i'm trying to think of who you would know this guy jeremy bronson was the head monologue writer uh justin shanes a very dear good friend of mine to this day uh eric legend amy ozles patrick borelli i know him yeah yeah he's a boston guy boston guy yeah i love borelli but so you're on the

monologue crew so what happened was as i was they were looking for sketch writers and i was hired as a sketch writer um and pretty quickly realized i was horrible at sketch writing. Really? Yeah. Like, not horrible. Just like. Like what? Goofy desk pieces? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just like games.

Goofy desk pieces. Like, it just wasn't my thing. My thing was, I kept getting reoriented back to like joke writing. Right. You know? And so what it was, was as a sketch writer, you were welcome to submit monologue jokes. And so I did that. And then I started getting enough on that they were like, well, either I got enough on or I got enough not on on the sketch side that they were like, do you want to switch over and become a monologue writer?

And so, yeah. So that was it, the first big writing job. That was the first big writing job. Yeah, late night. And how long did you stay there? I was there from April 2011 to February 2013. So like a little under two years. That's very specific joke writing.

Very specific. Monologue joke writing especially. So specific. Like the co-creator of this big, you know, comedy, you know, show that's about a life. I mean, how do you make the jump? What's the next step in the evolution from just writing one-liners for Fallon to where do you go next?

I guess my question is at some point someone taught you. Yeah, yeah, right. Or the experience did. I think what it was is like I was, you know, the late night experience was great because it taught, you know, it's like joke writing boot camp in a way. You have to write so many every day, but it was also like extremely exhausting. Limited too in a way. Yeah, yeah. You're writing jokes about the news that day and that's all you're doing.

And so I knew that I wanted to write more about characters and people and so i left and pretty quickly after i got hired my first my first narrative job was a show called hello ladies which you probably wouldn't remember but it was steven merchant's show on hbo was it like one season thing it was just one season yeah yeah i remember yeah but that was wonderful because i'm a huge Stephen Merchant fan and got to. Gotta be a sweet boss. So sweet. Was Fallon all right? He's sweet too, right?

Really sweet. Really sweet guy. Yeah. I like going on Fallon. It's weird. Because he got so much flack at first for being so goofy and childlike. I know. I know.

But he's a genuine audience. Yeah. Like when you go out there, he's just sort of like, are you going to do it? Yeah, yeah. That's the thing is like I could see if the truth is is like that is jimmy he's you know he's a big kid in that way and so it's like that it's authentic to who he is he likes when you do it yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah um oh so hello ladies hello ladies so that was a kind of shorter job but lucky to learn a lot from him was that that where, did you write a script? I didn't write a script there. It was a quick job and I was just a staff writer.

So like Lois on the totem pole, so didn't get a script. But the place that then I did learn pretty much everything about how to write TV comedy narrative is from Mike Schur on Parks and Rec. I went to Parks and Rec and I worked there for the last two seasons. And then I worked on The Good Place, Mike Schur's next show for all four seasons of that. Oh, so he liked you. I guess, yeah. So Parks and Rec, well, that's a big one.

Yeah, yeah, it was. And you're working with Polar? Yeah, Polar, who, yeah, was a massive, I was very, i have never been more nervous to do anything in my life than start that show because it was it was in the sixth season and it was my favorite show is that how many were there there were seven so i was on for the last two got it right yeah you know mike sure was one of my favorite writers i was a massive harris whittles fan he was in the room joe mand. Like this writer's room was stacked with people I was massive fans of.

The cast was stacked with people I was massive fans of. Is that where you met Mandy? Yeah, that's where I met Mandy. And do you give him this job he's got now? I was lucky that Mandy came aboard Hacks. Yeah. But yeah, I learned so much about writing TV from Mike and from that room and The Good Place. And yeah.

So that was where you wrote your first episodes? That's where I wrote my first episode. Yeah. So you break them in the room, then go out and write them? Break them in the room and go out and write them. Yeah. And come back and break them again? Mm-hmm.

Well, hopefully not. Hopefully not. Right? Right. Hopefully only- Maybe a couple tweaks. Only some dialogue tweaks and changes. But you never- Yeah. Sometimes it's a full re-break.

And what was, when did you do the Broad City stuff? So in my time at UCB, in a sketch group at UCB, I was in a sketch group with Lucia Añelo, who became, obviously, my co-collaborator and best friend. Wow, so you go for that far back. That far back at 2007. At UCB. Yeah, yeah. It's like it was an offshoot of UCB. It was some UCB people who were doing stuff on the side, and I met her doing that, and then I met Paul Downs they were. 2001? 2007, 2008. Really? Yeah.

Yeah. So we've known each other a very long time. Wow. And I was kind of just instantly, they were the funniest people in the world to me and I just wanted to stay in their orbit. So throughout this whole career, you know, Onion and Fallon and that, like they've been, you know, two of my best friends and we always stayed in in touch but also like you know they they I would sometimes like do you know punch up on Paul's like

sketch specials or or you know and then and then yes we worked more closely together on Broad City which I did in between seasons of Parks and Rec that was my first time doing Broad City was in between season six and seven. And Paul was on there? Yep, Paul was on there, yeah. Did he act on that too? He did, yeah. I remember.

He plays Trey, the gym trainer. Right, right, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then what about with Maria? When were you working with Maria? Oh, Maria Bamford, who my favorite. My favorite. My favorite, yeah.

She's the best. So after Parks and Rec ended, my in-between Parks and Rec and Good Place, the show that I worked on was Lady Dynamite for Netflix. Now, how was that as an experience? Because, you know, Maria has a specific thing that is specifically Maria. Yeah. And Hurwitz, is that who? Yeah, Mitch Hurwitz.

Mitch Hurwitz, also a kind of a an out there guy got willing to take risks yeah so like i mean broad city was was interesting and good and new but parks and rack and the good place were pretty established yeah shows yeah but imagine walking into lady dynamite it was like going into orbit somehow yeah well i think what it is is like it was kind of this very lovely meeting of minds and that maria is such a genius unique brain mitch is also that but mitch is so also you know the rest of development is incredible and he's so good at story and structure so like he is all is has that and then also pam brady um was the showrunner who someone who you know done a ton worked on south park forever very established like person who

knows how to make television movie and so it was a really good collaborative process in that way because i think you know like you're saying maria's it's not you don't naturally see maria's stand-up as amazing as it is and go, Oh, here's how that could be a narrative television show. Um, but I think that it's indicative of what I really love about television is that it was just a collaborative process. It was, it wasn't just Maria going, here's what I want to do. And let's, can you write that up for me? Thanks. Bye. It was very, all three of their brains at the top of the show. And then the writer's room working to figure it out. That's amazing.

Yeah, because like, there was what, three seasons? Two seasons. I did the first season and then I had to, I left for Good Place. But yeah,

I did the first season. And Good Place, that must have been a fun crew. It was very fun. I like Kristen a lot. Kristen's great. Love Kristen. One of my-

And Ted's wild too. Really good. Ted is an incredible actor because he could be an asshole. His pedigree suggests, hey, maybe he'll be a jerk, but hey, he's earned it, and he is the nicest, kindest. Also so like, hey, did I get that right? Yeah. So open to hearing. Real actor.

Yeah, real actor. Really lovely. When was the last time you watched Body Heat? Oh, my gosh. A long time. It's crazy to see him in that. I bet. Real actor. Yeah, real actor. Like, really lovely. When was the last time you watched Body Heat? Oh, my gosh. A long time. It's crazy to see him in that. I bet. I bet.

This weird dancing DA. I know. He's always dancing around. I just wonder whose choice that was. I know. I think I must have asked him when I talked to him. He's so, he's incredible. He is such a obvious on-screen person.

He's amazing. But, like, off-screen, too. So wonderful to work with and yeah that was that was it was another thing where you know the the lovely thing about my career is like all these people that i've came up with like my best friend darcy carden was also in the cast of that show and so i got to work with her for four years like it's all these people that i met at ucb or through offshoots of ucb that were all kind of now working together that's the way it works that's see that's the difference between sketch and

stand-up yeah well you must see i mean you see yeah well i know the guys you know sure like you know but they're still doing stand-up sure some of them build shows and whatnot but but but in terms of of coming up around sketch and improv is that you do kind of meet a variety of people doing different things, you know, acting and writing and everybody sort of, you know, engaged in that. It's not just this sort of like, you know, I only do me. Exactly. It all has to come through me. Right. Exactly.

Yeah. So they're kind of available and kind of looking for stuff. Right. Right. But so how does, when do you start, whose concept is Hacks? How does that unfold? So, yeah. Because I like the show and I shouldn't.

You know, when I first turned it on, I'm like, let's see if they get the comedy thing right. Yeah, well, I have to say it is a tremendous compliment that you like it because when we started making the show. All you were saying was like, will Marc Maron like it? Will Marcon will mark maron like this yeah that was we put it on the top of the whiteboard yeah make sure maron likes but we were like will stand-ups tear this apart like we we were very uh like wanted to be deferential to this for the it well how does it start though how do you come up with this thing whose concept so basically paul lucia and i had worked together on a bunch of stuff kept working together best

friends travel together all that and so on a we were paul was shooting a special for netflix uh a sketch special called the characters and this was in i remember yeah yeah this was in 2015 okay and he lucia was directing some and writing you know writing with him and they asked me to come along just for like punch up and you know that's kind of what we do we we i i trick them into letting me collaborate with them on everything right and uh and so we drive up to he was performing at a monster truck rally in portland maine they he has a he has a character called Jasper Cooch. Okay.

And Jasper Cooch was going to kind of emcee this monster. For the sketch, yeah. Okay, okay. Emcee this monster truck rally. And we're driving up to Maine, and we're just kind of talking about, we're talking about female stand-ups particularly that we kind of felt, you know, there was just a a they're talked about in a different light they're not there's fewer of them there's fewer of them because it was a markedly harder

path for them to get famous um and known and we just start talking about kind of women like that and then also kind of talking about this thing that happens about like comedy and cool comedy and comedy that people look down on you know this idea of like why is some comedy you know why is someone like for example kathy griffin who's so funny and so accomplished but like maybe you know i someone would look down on what she's done as not as like cool as other comedy it used to be that way with Robin Williams. Yeah. And that's why I interviewed Robin Williams. Because I got, you know, whether I was a huge fan of Robin or not, he's still Robin Williams.

Exactly. And to hear these young idiots sort of like, Robin Williams, what a hack. I'm like, do you even know what you're fucking saying? Yeah. The guy did everything you want to do. Right. And more. And you're going to be like, meh.

Exactly. And so we kind of like felt it was a very fertile ground not to just make a show about stand-up because that had been done and and you know but had it well no well what what are you thinking uh seinfeld but that's not really even yeah seinfeld or i don't i don't know it just felt like i guess the point is like when you pitch a show you can't just say it's about a stand-up it's like the thing that was the meat of it that really kind of got us talking and we felt energized by was this idea of this clash between older and younger generations about a lot of things. But when it comes to comedy, like what is cool? What is not? Why do why does someone who stands on the shoulder of this person then say like, eh, but what they did is hacky and not good.

Sure. Oh yeah. That's just insecurity and jealousy. Usually. Yeah. Um, but, but yeah,

so then, you know, we, we just start talking about that idea and it kind of stuck in our, you know, I don't know if you have this with ideas or ideas for standup, but like the things like you have an idea and then sometimes it just drifts away and you never think about it again.

You don't do it. But this one kind of like kept coming around we kept having little we had like an email chain where we would just email each other like oh this could be an episode or this could be a joke but i i thought that the the the idea to set it the reason why i took to it is because you took a very specific stand-up career and and it's one that's that's it's almost singular that's it doesn't it's not the grind you know it's it's the sort of the putting out to pass it's the it's where a certain type of performer ends up in vegas right so like that's a very uh specialized life yes yeah and and and it enabled you to avoid a lot of the problems that could happen with with care with a stand up life.

Right. Doing it like a strictly showbiz in Los Angeles. Right. Because because I think getting that thing right, you know, this sort of indulgence and comfort of having like what do you call it? A residency that goes on forever. Yeah. Because there are a few guys that have that. Yeah. But it's not that many no no no so so i thought that was like you you kind of insulated yourself in the world yeah and were able to explore it without me going like they don't fucking get coming you know right well i'm glad to hear that yeah and i mean i knew people like you know i knew some of the women you know back in the day like brett butler for some reason stands out in my mind yeah that that could have been where she ended right you know

like that and the whole backstory i thought was kind of genius too because i know caroline ray very well i mean there were definitely yeah women of a certain generation caroline's not as old as jean obviously but um but where it seemed plausible to me. Yeah, yeah. Well, it's also the thing of, in our show, Debra, Jean Smart's character, like she goes out there, she's proud of what she's built out there, but it's also a little bit of being shunned by the L.A., New York machine and world and kind of insulating yourself

in that Vegas world. And I've never spoken to a comic who has a residency there. I don't know how they would feel. But it's interesting to ask yourself, because as far as Debra, she does have a chip on her shoulder about kind of not being accepted. Because of her husband and what happened to the talk show. Well, I mean, I think a lot of those people that get that, they're actually true comics is what the issue is.

It's not so much that they failed, but it's just like, you know, they started out as comics. They probably had several shots to do other things and they ended up as comics. Yeah. And then they just go do that thing. Right.

That is a career of a comic. Right. Which is of a certain type yeah which it's like it's almost strange that that isn't seen in and of itself as a massive accomplishment you know like it's this need to like ask comics to do other things is interesting like i'm curious how you feel like are you like i am a comic through and that is like that is the thing i want to do at the end of the day and and acting and all the other stuff is kind of yeah as time goes on that's sort of that's true i mean that's what i set out to do and at my core i am that

yeah but i'm definitely not i don't even want to play a casino so i'm not that kind of comic uh-huh like i don't want to why don't you want to because i don't i don't feel like my audience they'd rather not go there yep yeah so you know i i mean i know my audience it's not huge but it's good yeah and you know if i don't have to drag them to the casino they'll they'll be happier i mean i could you know i could do a little theater i could do a club yeah where they'd feel more comfortable as opposed to being sucked into that world, right? I don't love that world, but I get it. I get that show business, right? But uh, but in terms of like, you know, you got George Wallace. You got a Brad Garrett Yeah, you got who else do I know like well Joan Rivers had these some of them had runs forever

Yeah, well it carrot tops been out there for decades Really long time. Yeah. Yeah. So for me, I mean, the question is, I see myself as a comic, but I guess your question is like, you never understood how these comics, like what happens exactly? There was a whole model in place where, you know, the big goal was to get a show built around your character. On TV. Yeah. Yeah.

So like once that didn't work out, then the only other option is, well, you're going to host something. Right, right. So either you're going to be the center of a show or you're going to host something or you're going to be like a side player. Right. I guess that's sort of the thing that I have like an aversion to is like the and again, this is just show business, how it works. And money is probably the answer just to these things. But like, why is this, this, um, why is there this like never ending? Like, well, but what else, what else do you want to do? Even now having a show, which I'm very proud of people who say like, well, are you going to do another show? Like what's, what's, are you going to have like a bunch of show? You're going to produce a bunch of, you know, like there's this,

it's never enough. And so it's interesting that as a super successful comic, who's asking that though, if that's the industry asking that it's, well, it's not that it's never enough. They're just sort of like they want to get a jump on it. Maybe. Maybe. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like you develop in anything?

You work in anything? I mean, you know, you're the symbiotic thing that maybe it's not symbiotic. However, the dynamic is between, you know, agents, you know development, I mean, it's never just sort of like, we're just curious as a friend. Like, what are you working on? No, no. Well, that's what I mean. I guess the answer in the end of the day is money. Yeah.

Well, I mean, it's also keeping the ball rolling. They get invested. Once you're a commodity, yeah. I mean, they want to run money through you yeah right but it's interesting is like if a comic was just like i don't want a show based around me i'm like i want to do stand-up you know like it's it's well there are guys who have done that i mean you know hannibal burris famously you know kind of quit snl yeah and i think mulaney might have in a way yeah uh to do other things and ended up as a stand up.

And like Carlin talks about all the time that at some point he realized, like, I can't act. I'm a comic and I got to figure out how to make this work. But I think it was the business of the 80s. It became this huge business. Giving comics development deals to try to make, you know, Everybody Loves Ray or Jerry. I mean, Brett Butler got a shot. Roseanne. There were all these shows.

Tim Allen, they were built around that, her generation, Debra's generation of comics. Right, yeah. And also the other thing is, what are you going to do, man? I mean, how are you going to, there's so many comics that just fall away. How are you going to retire?

How are you going to age out of this thing? How are you going to save? How are you going to age out of this thing? How are you going to save fucking money? Right, right. I mean, to see the guys that are sort of sentenced to the road out of no choice. Yeah. It's rough, man. Right.

There's not, yeah, TV and movies and those opportunities give you more stability and security that way. If you can keep them going, but everyone ages out of that shit. So something that happens with the character oforah is like it's a real gift i mean it could afford you the ability to to at least have a a second part of your life that isn't desperate right right yeah you know i'm just thinking about like that that episode in this

season where she i don't know where you're at. Are they showing them all yet? Yeah, yeah. Oh, they're all done. Yeah. Where she meets a woman that was doing comedy with her. That was such a real thing. Yeah. And of course, her ego was like that.

I ruined it. But it was such a, you know, that happens. And it's always weird. It's always weird, yeah. But as I get older, I'm always thrilled to meet somebody that has gotten out and done okay. Yeah, me too me too i i feel that like i we we talked a lot of in the room as we wrote that episode about this feeling of when you meet when you run into someone who quit or stop doing it you think they must think they're a failure yeah it's so it's it's like so funny how like the you

deborah's with the way deborah handled like oh i'm pitying her and then realizing like no she's pitying me i'm the pathetic one because i'm desperately doing a stand-up show at 4 30 in the afternoon at a state fair um yeah the the twisted kind of like this idea that we have about show business uh you know, about how it's like this revered thing. Yeah. And most people think we're just wasting time. I know. They're like, is that even a real job? Yeah.

What do you do? I know. But I think it speaks to our fear as well. Like how, because when I started the podcast, I was kind of washed up or not washed yet or something. But it wasn't happening. Yeah. Though I was still engaged and had done enough. It was just sort of, how do I take the next step?

And there's no, how do you quit this game? Yeah. And it's the same with writing. Yeah. Because like, it's all up to you anyways. So, you know, either you don't realize you're done, you know, and it becomes sad. It's become sad. Yeah. Someone else tells you you're done. you know, and it becomes sad. It's become sad. Yeah.

Someone else tells you you're done. Yeah. And you fight that. Yeah. There's no way your ego can, you know, takes a very sort of strange and humbled ego to bow out of this thing. Yeah. I know.

If it's not working out. But it isn't like when you meet someone and they're doing great. Why do you think that is that it gives you a sense of relief? To me, because I'll tell you, I know what it is when they get out. Yeah, I know. For me, it's it's even though I'm very lucky to do what I do and I'm at a very good moment in my career. It's the fantasy of that. I could not do it and be OK.

Sure. I think it's the fantasy of of the the torturous parts of the creative process being free of them, I think, is what it is. I guess for me, like, I don't, in my mind, like, I didn't have any choices. Like, I don't know what I would have done. Yeah. And as you get older, those even get farther away. Yeah. Like, whatever the idea is.

Like, I could teach or, you know, whatever that, you know know like right like i'm not gonna work at a restaurant yeah so like those things start to go away and then what i start to realize the reason that you know i'm glad they're doing okay is because i think there is uh uh priorities that that people choose yeah over this kind of like need to do this creative thing. Right. Like whether they're willing to take the hit on the creative thing to have families or live in a different place or, you know, enjoy life, period. Yep.

And if I can look at them and see that they are actually doing that, I'm like, well, good for you. Yeah. But I always look sort of like, really, though? I mean, I'm the asshole. it's like, you're happy though. But that's the sick part of us that makes us keep doing it. But yeah, but I like the idea that the other,

the one who had gotten out pitied Debra. Yeah. Yeah. Cause there's so many of them and there's so, I don't know what happens to a lot of them. And at the Comedy Store, you go to the Comedy Store and there's just, there's so like, I don't know what happens to a lot of them. And at the comedy store, you know, you go to the comedy store and there's just there's eight by tens everywhere of, you know, like going back 50 or 60 years of people that have come through there. And every once in a while, one will come in in real life and you'll be like, oh, my God. Wow.

The guy from the picture to do to do. There's this moment where you're like, where have you been, man? And they've a lot of them find their way you know or it might not be great but they're all right it's also like i think like thinking about it makes me consider luck and how big of a part of that it is and and how everything you know kind of coming together everything coming together cosmic. The cosmic timing. Exactly. Like that's also what I, I used to find it so unfair that it was such a big part of it and now I just kind of go like,

well, it's the way the world is. I think it's, I don't know if it's just luck because a lot of times, you know, it's somehow everything kind of coming together. It's not lucky though.

You make decisions about casting. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think the luck of it just comes on behalf of somehow an executive made a decision to say, okay. Sure, exactly. Who the hell knows what that day is? It's certainly not just luck. Sure. But yet I can speak to a number of writers who, you know what I mean?

It's very talented people who it hasn't happened in one way or another for. And that is the part of it that you just go, yeah, it's, it's like you said, it's tough business. Yeah.

The stars. Why'd you do it? I had no choice. Like I said, I had no choice. Right. Right. Right.

Cause like now I'm, I'm sad because when people are like, if, if I wanted to start doing comedy, what would you say? Like we're all filled up. No vacancy. Come back later.

But I don't even know. I'm just old now. You know what I mean? There's two or three generations behind me and they're doing okay, I guess. I don't know who they are, a lot of them, but they seem to be doing okay. But I don't know. The entire business is different. What okay means now is something I may never see.

There could be a guy that just bought his third house doing a very popular thing. And I don't even know how to get it on my phone. Right. Yeah. It's changing. It feels like it's changing at lightning speed, too. Yeah. It's just watching these actual networks kind of like just desperately hang on.

You know, it's kind of wild. But like something like Haxo, it seems popular. You're doing good, right? In terms of this marketplace. Yeah, we hit a lucky thing where it seems like we got critics on our side but also there's a general audience as well.

People like it. People like it, yeah. What's it on? It's on HBO Max. Oh, yeah. Yeah. People have that. But is that different

than HBO? HBO is the, like, more linear, like, you have to have cable and have HBO. But it's also on HBO. Our show is on HBO Max and have HBO. But it's also on HBO. Our show is on HBO Max, but not HBO. But here's the trick.

HBO shows are on HBO and HBO Max. I get it. Yeah. Yeah. So has that stuck in your craw? No, no, no. Things take a microbe. It's probably better if it's on the streaming service.

Better. Yeah. I mean, most people I know if it's on the streaming service. Better. Yeah. I mean, most people I know, that's how they watch everything HBO anyway. I just have Apple. I just have Apple TV. Right. And then it aggregates everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And I get through Hulu. I get my cable through Hulu. Yeah. Because I'm not a sports guy. There's no reason for me to have a fucking dish on my roof. Right, right. A wire coming into my house. Right.

But, well, that's great. And how, was casting, what was the casting like i mean so we we we sold the show to hbo max and and we knew that it kind of like lived in you know died by who plays deborah vance like it's a very tricky thing and did you think of comics no we kind of i mean not you know not that there aren't many wonderful comics who are also incredible actors but we knew that the show we wanted the tone to be kind of equally comedic and dramatic yeah and so to us we needed an actor an actor embodied that an actor yeah and and so pretty quickly jean's name was at the top of the list because

she's so skilled at doing both sides of that um and center the script and had fingers crossed for a few days and then we got the word that she wanted to meet about it oh great and hannah where'd she come from so they're both so good. They're so funny. Everyone's good. Paul's good. Everyone. Yeah. Our castes were very lucky. Basically, it was the opposite of the Gene. You know, Gene, it was like, okay, let's get Gene smart.

Thank God we did. The search for Ava was a very exhaustive. I think I looked one time of all the self-tapes we'd received because it was during COVID. So everybody was just taping at home. Or maybe it was right at the beginning of COVID. So some people were auditioning in person. But I looked at the packet of all the actors and comedians who had auditioned for AVE. And I think I counted and it was like 450 tapes we'd seen. And Hannah was just, you know, she was doing stand-up.

And she, you know, came into the casting director's office and she did a self-tape. And Paul Luchy and I are sitting watching, you know, every day we would get 20 tapes that we had to watch. And she really stuck out to us. And then kind of continued to, in the process, you know, she comes in for a callback. We say, oh, wow, there's really something here. And that was kind of how it happened yeah and then once you know once they do their chemistry tests gene and hannah that that was kind of like game over it was they had they had such good instant chemistry oh yeah yeah it was really that's great it was really cool and who's the woman that plays paul assistant mixed alter what's her trick so

she was she kind of became known doing um instagram videos front facing camera videos are you familiar no okay what does that mean i mean it just means like you're holding your phone up yeah and you're you know turning the camera and then you're just like doing your bit straight to camera that way yeah um. Yeah, I do that. And she was crazy funny on those and we knew of her through that. And then she does stand up, you know, she's an incredible performer too. And Paul was booked on a show with her and just was like, yeah, Meg is so funny. We have to write this for her.

Oh, good. And that dude who plays Deborah'sorah's assistant uh carl carl clemens hopkins actor yeah um he's very good yeah they're they're theater uh theater yeah and then mark and delicato plays deborah's assistant damian he he was a child actor was on ugly betty so someone who's been in the business for a very long time. You know, casting's one of those things like it's just weird chemistry. Like it's putting these people together and so we feel

very lucky. And you got an Emmy for the script? Yeah. Three of you? Yeah. That's great. Thanks. It's exciting, right? It was very exciting. It was very cool. Honestly not, even though we were nominated, not expected that we would win. Yeah.

And this season I thought was good. I thought it held together. I was skeptical coming out of the second season to see her in comedy clubs because I wonder how that went. But I think what's established, the reason it works is that she did have an audience yeah yeah you know at some point yes yeah and in vegas yeah yeah and still does have a niche audience that's right yes so that was like what really kind of put it over yeah that made it work yeah so wait so now what now are you guys waiting for a pickup or you got one? We are waiting to officially hear, yeah. Looking good though, right?

I think so, yeah. All right. Well, I like it and it was great talking to you. Very lovely talking to you. Thanks for having me. There you go. That was a good talk. I enjoyed it.

I liked it. Season two of Hacks just finished up. You can watch both seasons on HBO Max. And now I enjoyed this piece of guitar work I just did and I'm going to do for you now. Thank you. Thank you. guitar solo Boomer lives. Monkey and La Fonda. Cat angels everywhere. created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging

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