WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1342 - Dana Gould

Episode Date: June 23, 2022

Dana Gould is in his 40th year of doing standup. He and Marc talk about what they’ve learned in their decades of comedy, how they came to accept their limitations, and how they see themselves in today’s standup environment. Dana also explains why he went back on stage after years of giving it up to work on The Simpsons, why he feels that progress in comedy means knowing when you were wrong, and why he always goes back to George Carlin. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Lock the gates! All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers?

What the fuck, Knicks? What the fuck, Asonics? What the fuck, Tuplets? You look, it doesn't matter. How's it going? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast. Welcome to it.

Are you okay? I'm okay. I'm excited today because, well, it's yesterday, but you're listening to it today, but it rained yesterday in Los Angeles in the middle of the night. It's just astounding thunder and weird lightning. And then just a downpour. And any time water pours from the sky onto the Southern California ground, I'm fucking ecstatic. Because it just feels like everything is kindling, waiting to be ignited. When I just looked outside, when I looked outside at first, it was just lightning. And I'm like, oh, this is it. Everything's going to catch on fire. The whole goddamn thing goddamn thing's gonna go up and then the water just came down

oh I took everything I had not to go outside and dance around in the rain well the primary obstacle was not being struck by lightning naked in my yard and wet but uh so exciting and the ground just sucks it, just absorbs it like an old sponge that hasn't had water in it for a year or at least for a decade, just an old dry sponge. And my friend Dan and I, Dan from Gimme Gimme, we had a hike planned at 730 and it was still kind of raining. We're like, fuck it. Let's

go get up on that mountain. It's all wet and all the green stuff that's kind of hung in there is all green, real green. And even the wet kindling, that's what it all smells like. That's what LA smells like after it rains, dusty, wet kindling. Cause that's what it is. But I was thrilled. kindling. Because that's what it is. But I was thrilled. I was thrilled that it fucking rained. Oh, God, I can't even tell you. Today on the show, Dana Gould is here. You know, he was like on during the first year of the podcast. And then he's been back for a couple of short ones over the years. But you know, I just saw him recently up in Vancouver and we sat down and we talked over breakfast. It was me and him, James Adomian. It was just like old timers now,

just, you know, contemporaries. And we just had a good time, got some laughs, telling old Boston stories. And I just thought, like, why not? Let's have him on. He's also someone who thinks about comedy a lot. And he's a good person to talk to about the evolution of comedy, which is sort of a topic going on with me right now. So I had old Dana back. I had him back. Look, I'll be in Las Vegas. You hear me? Las Vegas, Nevada on Friday and Saturday,

July 15th and 16th at Wise Guys. In Los Angeles, I'll be at Dynasty Typewriter for two shows, Saturday and Sunday, July 23rd and 24th. I'll be at Just for Laughs in Montreal for my gala on Saturday, July 30th. I'll also be doing solo shows up there on July 28th and 29th. More to come on those. Then I've got tour dates coming up in August and September in Columbus, Ohio, Indianapolis, Indiana, Louisville, Kentucky, Lincoln, Nebraska, Des Moines, Iowa, Iowa City, Iowa, Tucson, Arizona, Phoenix, Arizona, Boulder, Colorado, Toronto, Ontario, correct? You can go to wtfpod.com slash tour for all dates and ticket info.

The last time I talked to you was before my Charleston show, which went great. It was kind of a crazy show, right? Am I right to think I didn't talk to you? Because I recorded on Sunday for Monday, right? Yeah, before the Charleston show, which was Sunday night, which was Father's Day. And it was a very crazy show. Some guy brought his 13-year-old kid to the show, and I could see almost everybody in the room. And that can go either way. But I told him right out of the gate that it was not very responsible

parenting, and that I'm not going to pull any punches. And then I made fun of his father relentlessly, which I think he enjoyed. The father was a real fan of mine, but still a little bit irresponsible. And then at some point he left during the show and I was like, do you need someone to take you home? Are you okay? Is this situation okay for you? I think your father's probably out front crying on the phone to your mother. How did that end? That kind of stuff. Is there anyone here from Child Protective Services? So it was a good time. A lot of fun riffing with the child in the room, but it's a difficult balance because if you draw too much attention to the kid, people are going to be self-conscious about laughing at some of this stuff. And I found out after the show, there's a guy sitting up front, older guy, not older,

a little older than me, and a woman who seemed to be sort of shocked by a lot of what I was saying, though laughing, and he seemed to be a real fan. And I took a picture with that guy after. But then it turns out, and I said to the woman he was with, I said, you didn't seem to really, were you having a good time? She's like, you don't even know. And it turns out it was Nancy Mace, the Republican Congresswoman from down there in Charleston,

who I guess was in some hot water with the MAGA crew for not toeing the line. But I'm glad I didn't know because I probably, you know, maybe it would have been better if I knew. But people can handle it. She got some laughs. But that show was great. And I ate two dinners. I had dinner before the show at Salmon.

And then after the show, I went and bought a steak. Me and some friends had a massive steak. Two dinners in Charleston. That's memorable, right? Two dinners. So look, you guys, I should tell you that in a couple weeks, we're going to be making our move to A-Cast. And what does that mean to you?

Well, I'll tell you. If you listen to this show on any free podcast platforms, it means you'll still get the show exactly the way you've always gotten it. But there will be hundreds of additional episodes for you to listen to. We're opening up our archives going all the way back to 2014. All of those episodes will be available for free. For episodes 1 to 500, those along with all other ad-free episodes are going to be available on ACAST+. You can buy a subscription to ACAST+, starting Tuesday, July 5th. And once you've signed up,

you'll be able to listen to all the content on whatever podcast app you currently use. You don't need a specific app for it. Also, ACAST+, we'll have weekly bonus content. I'll be doing stuff for you that you can't get on the regular podcast feed. If you're a Stitcher Premium subscriber, our last day on Stitcher Premium is June 30th. So check when your subscription is up and act accordingly. We'll have more details next week and a preview of some of our bonus material. Yeah, I don't even know what that's going to be. So that makes it real exciting.

Look, if anyone's in the L.A. area and they're looking for a doggy, go to my Instagram feed. That's at Mark M.A.R.C. Marin at Mark Marin. My friend Kit works over there, Pasadena Humane. And there's a doggy named Mimi over there that we'd like to get her adopted this Saturday because there's free adoptions this Saturday over at Pasadena Humane, I think between 10 and 2. Check it out. Go to my Instagram.

See the doggy. It's a part pit bull doggy. Really great looking doggy. Someone wants a doggy. Look. What is truth right I keep thinking like I've been working on these new ideas around

people who like I didn't think I'd live in a culture or in a world where you kind of pick your truth like you pick a radio station you know like I kind of like country truth I'm more of a hip hop truth guy I'm a classic rock truth person. But no, I just this idea that obviously that's not what truth is.

And, you know, you just prefer what makes you comfortable and what satisfies whatever your particular perception or context of understanding of whatever you think reality is. And you kind of, you know, lock that in, that template onto your dumb, mushy brain. And then you act from that place online in the untrue world of cowardice and attack or concern or whatever it is. But I just started to think about the idea of what truth really is and where we're really at. And it's, I just had an encounter with a comedian last night, you know, who's a big comic and he said that we think differently. And he said something interesting.

He said like, yeah, I can't live in that place that you're talking about. And I can't, I can't think and live in a place where there are no solutions. And I realized that's sort of why people put caps on, you know, what their sense of reality is,

why they have to have answers, whether they're belligerent or embracing that there's this need for control. There's this tremendous fear of the unknown that fuels most of the tribalism and most of the speculative bullshit that is kind of destroying our culture from the inside. It's all around fear of some kind fear of the unknown and uh one's inability to live with it or accept the fact that things are dire or or disastrous and there might be no getting out of it so why not instead go like fuck that guy fuck them fuck you you're the other team. Fuck this. There's no growth or proactive movement in that shit. But really stemming from quote unquote truth. What is that really to you?

What is your truth and what information are you taking in to sort of create a value system for yourself? I don't know. I just had this weird train of thought with it. I'm very happy Dana Gould is here. It's going to find its way into the act. Dana has a web series called Hanging with Dr. Z. You can watch it at hangingwithdrz.com or check it out on YouTube. We talk very little about any of his work.

We talk like comics talk. That's what comics do. So this is me talking to Dana Gould. Be honest. When was the last time you thought about your current business insurance policy? If your existing business insurance policy is renewing on autopilot each year without checking out Zensurance. Mind your business. you'll never leave Japan alive FX's Shogun a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney Plus 18 plus subscription required

T's and C's apply It was fun when we hadn't seen you in a while when we were in Vancouver because when I sat down with you and we started talking, I realized like, oh, we're the old guys. Yeah. But we're having that conversation. Do you remember?

Sure, sure. And it was real. I mean, there really is that much time now. Yes. 30 years, 40 years? 40. I started doing stand-up comedy July, June 17th, 1982. Yeah.

Two weeks out of high school. Yeah. At the ding. Yeah. Ho, and yeah, 40 years. It's crazy. And it was fun to think about them and to have those moments like, oh, what happened? Yeah, is that guy what happened? Yeah.

Is that guy still around? Yeah. And you just get it. At a certain point, you just get a reward for not dying. Sure. And how many people in the world have, in terms of at any given time, said, you know, Cy Bell's dead. Oh, yeah.

Or like, and I listened to my dad. He's got the big C. Your dad's a big C? No. He would say, like, if somebody got a cat, how do you do it? The big C. Yeah, yeah. Or diabetes, he's got sugar.

Yeah? Oh, sugar? Yeah. That's what they say. Yeah. This is right. Your dad's not around, is he? No, here's the, okay, here's the weird thing.

No, my dad isn't around. He's 91, and he still drives himself. Yeah. My mom is, as my dad would say, has one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel yeah um she's um my mother is in a is in a bed from which she will not get up uh she has had uh she's 88 she's had dementia for uh several years so how did it go my dad just started and we're all pretty excited we don't know let me tell you how we let me tell you christmas is a breeze everything's sort of a breeze hope

you like the hope you like the diamond necklace the what um it and it's very you know it's been so long yeah you know i've since it really uh head on I've only had one conversation with her where she knew who I was. Really? Yeah. And it was very, very strange. And Kat, my fiance, witnessed it. And I'm really glad she did because I would have eventually believed that it didn't happen. Yeah.

So in a way, you're being slow walked to the funeral. And I don't mean to be morbid. I mean, like, I'm, it's okay. My brother, okay, I'll give you an example of the attitude in my family. It's so funny. I don't think that a younger you would have said that. No. I don't mean to be morbid.

I do mean it. Yeah, yeah. But here's an hour. And at the end of it, I'll breathe once. Yeah, yeah. My brother, you know, so she's had, she broke her hip. She's stopped eating, you know, and she's only awake for a little bit during the day. So no one is buying her any green bananas.

Right. And my brother, I see my phone rings two days ago, and I see it's my brother, and I go like, okay, here it is. It's time. Yeah. And I pick up the phone, and he literally goes, Ma's not dead. Got a minute? And I go, yeah, what's it? And then he tells me what he needed to tell me, and he goes, oh, yeah, I should have told you before.

Dad died. Okay, I got to go. for dad died okay i gotta go and and and it's so funny because my brother when it all it's so funny because with my brother it's all there's nothing under the surface it's all right there and i like you know um uh i go so what's going on and he literally said not trying to be funny you know mama and i were never close yeah and that's his way of going i'm not gonna feel anything i'm not gonna feel it i'm not gonna cry what do you think you're gonna feel like i talked to people because like i told my mother they're not together about the dementia she goes well he was never really around sure yeah yeah yeah it's it's just dementia is just like official

yeah but uh i don't know i don't know what to expect but the thing is his spouse there's all this shit you don't hear about i mean i don't i don't know at the beginning that you your mother like my dad will like focus and he'll put on a show but he's at the stage of dementia where you know he she basically tells him what to say in any conversation like right you go to the movies yeah we. Rosie, what was the movie? Yeah, we saw that one. What was that about? Yeah. So he's- Yeah.

He's the ventriloquism state. Yeah. It was like the Bob Hope special I did in 94. Nice to see. He had an earpiece. His daughter was giving him his lines to his earpiece. How are you? Oh, my God.

Yeah. That thing, the way you talk about that particular event, it's almost, it seems like one of the more traumatic events of your life. Like, it's something you go back to for decades. He did. He did. It was like performing with a cast member of the Dark Crystal. Just the grotesquery of it. No, and he had those, God bless him, he had those sad, sick monkey eyes.

Where you could see the red? Yeah, yeah. Like you could see more red than I. It was really, it was just like, time, Bob, time to stop. And that's why Johnny Carson retired. Yeah. He didn't want to become Bob Hope. Yeah.

He didn't want to become Bob Hope. Is that really why? It's what he said. Oh, really? Yeah. And you can see in those last appearances. He must have been relieved that Bob Hope couldn't. Carson hated him.

Yeah. Yeah. Because he'd just show up. He'd just show up and then towards the end, it's like, how are you, Bob? Yeah, how are you, huh? Decaf. It's like, what? You carry it, Johnny.

I don't know. But to the point. Yeah. I don't know. But to the point, and again, it's a very strange time in life when your parents are, I could take them both physically. I would just take a pillow, and you might. Yeah, or even close combat or grappling sure you could probably outrun them and they'd die yeah although my father and i my everyone is still afraid of my dad really yeah oh yeah that's how we gauge his health how's that he could still kill you um it's very true very true you think he could but just with some sort of cobra mind fuck or physically oh yeah physically like he's just he's sort of Cobra mind fuck or physically? No, yeah, physically.

Like he's just, he's Gran Torino. I watch Gran Torino with my dad, which is like watching King Kong with a gorilla. It's just pretty redundant. Yeah. And, you know, I'm getting married again when I didn't think I would even be in a relationship again. Yeah. And my oldest daughter started college last year and I had to deal with like a kid leaving home so it's a very is what you realize is like i thought i was done but i'm also i'm part of it is done and part of it is starting

all over again yeah yeah yeah very yeah it's a very strange feeling i don't have those markers i don't have children as markers yeah you better off as the old the stuff i did the material i do about it is like i don't see myself aging because i don't i don't have kids i think you have kids you can kind of see yourself dying in them yeah yeah yeah no that's true happy birthday i'm dying dad you said that out loud well that's the other thing when your parents die it's like well i'm next yeah also like the feeling of not having parents. I don't know. But you think a lot.

I have a lot of time to think without the kids. But you're starting this whole other period of life. And I'm sort of like, what do I do? I just go away now? Oh, no, totally. That was my concern. No. Well, as long as you stay in the world, it's great.

But there is something. There's part of you that's pulling you out of it. Like you kind of want to be like, do I want to stay in the world, it's great. I know, but there is something, there's part of you that's pulling you out of it. Like, you kind of want to be like, do I want to stay in the world? Oh, no, completely. I would love to live in a utterly encapsulated fantasy world where it's 1966. Yeah. That's an interesting year. It's just like a great year for pop culture.

Was it? Yeah, you know, yeah. Just the music was really good and tv was introduced i dream a genie and perry mason just the stuff that we watched as kids like sure because we didn't you know we grew up watching old stuff the old stuff because it was reruns it was like yeah it's weird we were i'm 57 yeah we're the same age it a weird missing, we're that weird generation where we got all the leftovers. Yeah. And all of a sudden then disco and new wave happened. Yes, yes, exactly.

And we didn't really, we were too young to really call the Beatles and the Stones our own. Right. Even Zeppelin. We were too late for fucking Zeppelin. Yeah, too late for that. When we were coming, it was like Toto and Foreigner and the Nuge. Yes. And then punk rock didn't even make it to me punk rock didn't make it yeah not to me either until like the until i

went to college yeah right yeah yeah it's a weird generation and then like if you lived you grew up where the middle of massachusetts hopedale massachusetts yeah you had those tv stations that ran the stooges and the bowery boys 38 and 56 but here's like but what now like in terms of like during the pandemic because like you've done a lot of things and the last time we talked like thoroughly about stand-up was a long fucking time ago yeah it was like it's like 10 years ago yeah something yeah and like a lot has happened and i talked to Proops the other day about shit. I was just picking his brain because I'm sort of strangely. You mean Proops could do the Sunshine Boys. That would be weird.

Like I'm almost there and I'm a Jew. We remember getting paid in cash. Sure. Sure. At weird bars. I remember running out of a bar in Fall River that Mike Clark booked because I knew we were going to get robbed. Sure. Oh, yeah.

I was with my girlfriend at the time, and the guy was paying me at the bar in cash, and I looked down the bar, and there are two dudes with that look. So I got the cash, and I said to my girlfriend, I said, walk to the door and then run. Yep. Yep. Sure. I remember being in North Carolina or South Carolina at the end of the week being white or green. What is that?

Cocaine or cash. Oh, really? Yeah. No kidding. Yeah, 88. So you go with the cash? I went with the cash. To quote the late, great Bob Lazarus, because I wanted to own things.

Yeah. Who is that guy that, did you do the impression of, oh, no, that was Andy Kiddworth, the impression of Rick Kearns? Yeah, no, that wasn't me. The headliner asked for an advance, you know. Can I get an advance on my money for the weekend? He's like, how much do you need? Well, how much is an eight ball in this town? It was insane and like you try to explain it to people like the road in the in the 80s did you read that sam talent book no oh you gotta read it what's it called running the light he's a comic

from denver and he wrote this book oh my god God. No, I have to read that. About a road comic of that generation. Oh, I have to read that. Dude, it's great. Do you know the John Fox story about- Which one? John Fox or another John was having sex with a waitress in the club and she said in the heat of passion, screw me, you comedy motherfucker. That's exactly the sentiment.

That's the love that the waitresses had for all of us yeah yeah i tried to explain to people especially being in boston in that era i've never done cocaine ever in my life i've seen more cocaine done than the eagles roadie i mean to be in boston in that period of time it was the back room back room at Nick's. It was madness. Yeah, yeah, yeah. People with pinwheel pupils. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, just...

Yeah, yeah. And some of them are still alive, but not many. No. Not many. And really brilliant guys and really nice guys. Yeah.

My favorite story is that one about... I don't know. They attributed to John Fox, the guy who gets the bloody nose on stage. That's one of my favorite stories. I don't know this story. Like he's just doing his bit and all of a sudden the audience stops laughing and they're looking at him with shock and he realizes that his nose is bleeding. And he touches his nose, he sees the blood and he looks at the audience and goes, what,

doesn't anyone party anymore? He touches the nose. He sees the blood and he looks at the audience and goes, what, doesn't anyone party anymore? That sort of self-insulated. I remember being backstage at Nick's watching Sam Kennison do three, four-inch rails. I've seen a lot of that. Yeah. Go into the men's room, throw up, come out and go, if you don't throw up, you're not doing it right.

And then go on stage. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my God. And god and i meanwhile at that point of my life was like maybe i should stop eating meat so eyes on the prize so but when i talked to you before though like i mean how do you feel like i'm i'm very hung up on on on something i and i the way i talked about it with g was I just said, like, did we lose? Oh, yeah.

You know, like. Yes. Yes. Answer to your question. But, like, what are you feeling when you, like, go out there in terms of, like, because there's a lot of things going on. Oh, you put it really well. You use your own words. Yeah.

We have two things going on now. We have people that are doing comedy shows and there are people that are doing comedy rallies. That was really well observed. But what happened to the side? Because it seems like there's still like, why did you go back out? I mean, there was a period there where you were like, I'm not going to really. Yeah. Like you didn't really focus on it.

Not at all. I was writing on a show. I was newly married, bought a house, had kids, had a day job. People thought I was writing on The Simpsons, so people thought I was a genius. It didn't matter that I wasn't. No, but you are like one of the best comics ever. Oh, you're very sweet. But I believe that.

You know, like when people talk about you, like when I used to watch you, here's what I used to say. It's like, he can do it all. He can do voices. he can he can do voices on stage off stage it's a very different situation of course yeah but but there was professional comedian but you were generating all this stuff and you know we we come from a similar place where you know we can't hide a certain amount of darkness right and you know like I don't think I was ever going you know despite like when i really think about my limitations as an artist i'm like you know i was never designed to be the big guy yeah and it's hard to accept that it is very hard to accept that but did you

yes how did that go for you uh what made you know that um i well there's a well there's a couple there's a couple things but it really was when I first got when I first got married yeah and at that point you'd done like four one man shows yeah I had done a lot

I had done a lot and a lot of pilots and things and I did everything that should have happened right and i had a really close call with snl and uh and it just kept not happening yeah and but but then i was met my first wife and and I was like, well, this person loves me, and we had a good life. And I was like, I'll just have a nice life. Yeah.

And it wasn't eating at you? No, it was constantly eating at me. And you're on medicine, too, right? Well, yeah. And that was a great thing. Because I had serious mental health struggles up until today. What time is it? And I'm going to say this to both of you.

No, my mid-30s, probably 94. 94 was when I got medicated, and I'm paraphrasing an old Kenny Rogerson joke about a sobriety. I meet people that knew me before I turned 30 and I just blanket apology. Yeah. I'm sorry. Whatever happened, whenever you saw me.

A card you hang out, like a hand out like a deaf person. Yeah, yeah. I'm sorry, card. If you knew me before August of 1994, please take that all with a grain of salt um and uh and i but i did just realize like well i can still do the stuff i like and i have a little bit of and i still love to do it yeah but i'm just not gonna be that person i'm not gonna be a movie star and uh what about like the biggest comic that thing no i just i never i never felt i was i just like okay it's not gonna it's not gonna happen but my life was much better than i thought it would be so i i took the trade. But then, having been at the Simpsons for a long time,

my kids come along, it really... And when I went into the Simpsons room, I had had pilots. I was on Letterman. I had albums. I was on Seinfeld. Wasn't there a show? I vaguely remember a script where they the that maybe you were involved in where david tell played a baby yes i wasn't involved i wasn't

involved in that way but you remember it i yes i do yeah yeah yeah but but the the but i had to completely shelve all of that like i had to go into that place the simpsons yeah yeah anonymous because they didn't care yeah nor should they yeah it's a billion dollar industry yeah and then but the other writers are like you know it's like we're here on our merits and i was like a carnival i was like a guy from the carnival that they let sit in you know because they didn't they didn't understand my whole world some sort of comedy pirates working with us here well it galls them because and i don't blame them because a lot of these guys are funnier than anybody on stage right but they're but they're like comedy mathematicians yeah but and Yeah, but they're not famous for it.

But they're every bit as funny as famous people. Sure. And they kind of, mm-hmm. Yeah, and it's totally understandable. Sure. And it took a long time before I could start to like. So it's all on the page? You couldn't even. So all your charm powers didn't matter

nothing nothing you walked in like hey yeah no i was naked naked yeah it's just naked yeah it was very difficult very difficult how long did it take for them to uh nine or ten almost a year just to just to like that i felt that i had earned my place there and I could start to just be a guy and not just the new guy and start to tell stories about stuff. But your brain works like that. It was like the other day, I was talking about that moment where I kept referring to the comics we were talking to, talking about as old monsters. Old monsters. Yeah, but there's a sweetness to that. And then you went on that riff, it's like Godzilla.

And Baragon. And Baragon. So, yeah, sit down. Sit down, sit down, sit down. You have kids? Yeah. I hear you're good to your kids. But like you took it to the next place.

Yeah. You know, which is like sort of a Simpson-y kind of trip. Yeah, yeah, totally, totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then after a while, several, talking about years, I had to go back because I really felt like a part of me was missing i was at a i was at a party yeah uh and someone said are you dana gould and i said i used to be and my wife went you gotta go you you have to stop that you have to stop that you have to go in walking around like a a sad version of defeated.

Yeah. Had I stayed on the show and not left, I would have many, many millions of dollars and I would weigh 400 pounds and I would be clinically depressed. Sure. Yes. But so now when does this sync up with this is the beginning of alt comedy or is this after all that? Well, no. Alt comedy started first and then I went into The Simpsons right when the comedians of comedy took off. So like when Patton and Brian and those guys started doing that tour.

When Patton began doing his version of you. I didn't say that. You said that. That's when you bailed out. I talk to the guy every day. It seems like there's three people that collectively are doing me. So I don't really need to be here.

Yeah. And I'm actually the worst at it. So I'm going to go. That's hilarious. So that's interesting. But it was like it got branded it kind of got it got branded uh it got branded but this was always the thing and i think i don't know if we talked about it in another time but like it it's there most of the successful comics that came out of that scene were club comics yeah they were not they weren't they're

like the alt movement which is now completely defunct. But you're talking about like Andy, Janine. Sure. Kathy. Zach. Yeah. Yeah. Brian. We were doing comedy clothes, even Patton.

Yeah. I mean, when alt happened, we were like, well, this is a new venue and there's less drunks and we can process things. Yeah. Alt was about, it was a very punk thing. Was it? Yeah. Because I remember hearing about it in New York, like, you know, Dana's doing a bookstore.

I'm like, what the fuck is happening out there? Do we got to find a bookstore now to compete with these? Yes, you do. We did. So many people in suede jackets writing on their hand. Yeah. yeah um but that was really and i get in um uh a response to the the commercialization of the improv and the comedy stand-up club the franchise like you couldn't bomb anywhere like janine went on at the improv and tried out new stuff and then get yelled at because like jim mccauley was in the

audience and right and he's like why are you trying to do this? Because it's called the improv. I thought this is where I come to do this. Work out. Work out. Yeah, we just wanted a place. Work out. Yeah.

We just wanted a place. And I remember specifically going to see Elvis Costello in the Rude Five. It was his band between the Attractions and the Impostors. Yeah. It was the Mighty Like a Rose tour in 1991 at the Universal Theater, which is now Hogwarts. And looking at all the people in the audience that were my peers that I had been seeing at Elvis Costello concerts every year and thinking, none of these people go to comedy clubs. Yeah. We have chased them out of the clubs with a

stick maybe or they never went no they did but they did they were at open mics but the comedy clubs by that time had been it was like it was like an urban cowboy bar well yeah but it was also like you know franchise comedy clubs created franchise comics yes and and the ones that transcended that were truly gifted those guys from the 80s that were able to come out with their own personality and point of view from that machine yeah they're they're big comics and you may not like them but they're real professionals and they're craftsmen and they yeah i have a lot of respect for all of those people even the ones i don't agree with sure you know i've they're they're they're craftsmen but that was just we just wanted

the place to go and try out material and and to talk to our audience and our audience was in bookstores and coffee shops yeah um and it was or enjoying music or a different type of culture yeah yeah i mean the the last place they wanted to go was a comedy club because it's it it was and remains sort of cheesy, a lot of them. Yeah. They still sort of exist in this frozen time. Well, people forget that the stand-up comedian at that point was a parody character on SNL. Yeah.

Before the show Seinfeld, they had those sketches with Tom Hanks and John Lovett. Here she comes! And there she goes. Yeah, the Seinfeld thing. It was to be parodied. Yeah. And we just wanted to go to some place and do real stuff.

And the rule that we had at Big and Tall Books was you had to do new stuff you couldn't do your act sure that yeah that's the lunar rule tool right too i was one i followed right and so and and and it's so funny because the the person that was the best at it was kathy griffin yeah like it was just like oh this has always been her style she just didn't have a venue for it uh-huh um but that was the birth of the notebook right it's like of course you had your notes with you on stage you just wrote it right and then like i think and then that became a trope

al lubell really ran with it he's got the most legal pads and walking around in sweatpants somewhere right now and you know what and we'll hear this cotter he'll he'll hear this and he'll come up to me out of he'll appear like an apparition but hey hey i heard you you mentioned me today with love where are you living you okay yeah man that's a real thing it is a real thing

but then the notebook became a trope it never meant you're a sellout if you memorize your act I bring them up and I don't use them oh I bring them up all the time I have a note and i don't use them oh i bring them up all the time i i have a note card i don't use i don't use i blanked on letterman you did no on conan on conan well that's less yeah but it was like i did have it was like a you know the whole thing was over in three seconds yeah but oh you're doing panel no i was on say i was doing a bit yeah and i

was like do you want bullet pointing nah. And it was just a weird day. Like, I got a ticket on the way in. Yeah. And I was like, I'll be fine. I'll be fine. I'll be fine. And then it was like, tick. Oh.

Is it? Tick. I don't know what's next. Oh. Tick. My career's over. No, it was. It was just, and I know what it'll be like because it was one of those things like I didn't panic because I was literally out of my body.

Like, this is my nightmare. Yeah, yeah. This is my nightmare. And then you just feel yourself leave your body and you're over in the wings going like, good luck, man. Glad I'm not him. Glad I'm not that guy. I know that feeling. Yeah.

Happens when you bomb too. I'm not going. Glad I'm not that guy. I know that feeling. Yeah. Happens when you bomb, too. Oh, I'm not going to stay here for this. It happened in the car accident. I was in a bad car accident. You found the, you got back on track, though? It came? Yes, but it came after I said, I don't know what's next. That's okay.

And they were very sweet to cut it. Oh, they did. Well, I mean, well, that's weird. Well, Conan did say, be glad it happened here. Yeah. Well, I mean, but that's the thing about, you have to kind of restructure a lot of things to get that five minutes right. You're taking a lot of things out of context.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. There's no natural flow to it. You know, you've got to rehearse a thing. And you're not looking at anybody. Yeah. Because you can't really see anybody. What happened in the car accident? Well, I was in a bad car accident with Bobcat Goldthwait a couple years ago.

I heard about that. Did you get really hurt? We were in the backseat of a car that got T-boned very violently. That's my biggest fear, this T-boning thing. Yeah. And the thing is, we were only going from the hotel- Second to T-bagging. T-bagging.

And that all depends on if you're driving. Yeah. I deliver it like fucking Johnny. Second to T-bagging. Teabagging. And that all depends on if you're driving. I deliver it like fucking Johnny. Second to teabagging. Teabagging. All right, so what happened? Go ahead. Hotel to the venue, two blocks.

We're in the back seat, no seatbelts. They always say that, less than a mile away. No seatbelts. I was going to sit in the front seat. Uber? No, it was a production car but because we were filled we're going to film the doc yeah i was going to sit in the front seat and the driver's dog was in the front seat and because i have no self-esteem i said now i'm sitting in the back don't worry about

it so i sit in the back had i sat in the front seat i would just i would not be bobbing the dog oh y'all you mean he would have been i would have been killed i would have been killed no the dog was a tiny dog it was like a little uh French bulldog and it got thrown on the floor. Yeah. I would have been killed or badly damaged. How about the driver? Driver? Driver's okay, but like the whole side of the car just went in like that.

Jesus. Did someone run a stop sign or what happened? Someone just, we took a left and they just kept going and hit us, moved us. Bob and I, Bob got a very bad concussion and we broke, we hit each other so hard we broke our ribs on each other. Oh my God. Yeah. And so I couldn't breathe. Yeah.

And for a good, you know, 10 seconds. Yeah. My thought was, I'm going to die looking at the roof of a car. Yeah. And I wasn't, but I wasn't thinking about my loved ones or anything. I was, I was just that thought. Fuck me.

Yeah. The roof of a car. Yeah. Right. Yeah. And, uh, uh,

and then I started to breathe. I could breathe a little bit again. And, uh, what'd that tell you about you? Yeah. Not a good person. But that, started to breathe i could breathe a little bit again and so what'd that tell you about you yeah not a good person but that but that's interesting about what we're talking about the beginning of i should have dieted more but but the idea of the alternative comedy thing

is you know when talking about kathy griff talking about the on cabaret uh what was it big and tall book big and tall books luna park was huge yeah luna park right and then you know that was on cabaret largo largo on cabaret that whole world right luna park yeah uh and then new york we just had the one place right but like you like i saw it as a place to workshop and learn over many years that uh just sort of you know bitterness is really amplified self-pity and not everybody has it. It's not as relatable. But that's only because I have theirs. But I used to assume that like if you just dug a little deeper, there's part of you that feels that you've been slighted, ripped off.

Sure. And your friends are terrible. Yeah. But it's not true. No. Well, you can be slighted. You've been slighted, ripped off, and your friends are terrible. Yeah. But it's not true. No. Well, you can be slighted. You can be slighted and ripped off. Sure, but there's no reason to surrender that disposition.

What I learned is it was funny, but most people were sort of like, that guy's in trouble, I think. Well, it's that, and it's also the realization that it's not about you. But that's what I was going to say, is that that's what it was about. not about you but that's but that is but that's what i was going to say is that that's what it was about that's what defined that entire movement was a self-indulgence and i think yes but you and i have always spoken from that point of view like even when i was

talking to greg greg is you know he's thinking outside of himself but like we're always putting ourselves you know right on the fucking chopping block. Absolutely. But, and I will quote the best comedy advice I ever got. From? Kevin Rooney. Okay. Said two things on the same night. I was opening for him in Dallas, Texas. Yes.

In 88. And he said, it's a show. Yeah. I know that one. They came. They paid money. Many of them are paying babysitters so they can come here and pay money. And you're in a light

and you have a stick that makes your voice loud. You have a responsibility. It's a show. How old were you when you heard that one? 24. Oh, that's a good time. I don't think I really realized that until maybe a year or two ago i know well the other one was even more important and it was same night he said uh they want to like you yeah

but first they're curious as to whether or not you like them. And I was a better comedian the next show. Because I pretended to like them. Good for you. Yeah. And you continue that, which I appreciate. I continue this day. And I've moved that on to my family and children. Because it's a show.

It's a show, Mark. Yeah, it's always a i have i wrote something down that i read on stage sometimes it just says uh gaslighting parenting oh very true yeah my uh cat my fiance pointed out something that my nickname in my family was was dana the complainer yeah that's good and but the thing that i- Oh, they know that's your job? But the thing, well, the thing that I complained about was getting beat up. Uh-huh. So it was like, so they gaslit you.

Yeah. That you didn't like getting beat up and they filed that as a complaint. Yeah. That's interesting. It's like, oh, Dana doesn't want to get punched. That's true. He wants to lift his arms. Yeah.

Jesus. The thing that changed me about standup was actually something Stuart Lee said to me. Really? Yeah. It was similar, though, but it was later. It was on this podcast where, for some reason at the time that he said it, and I heard it in relation to who I was, where he quit comedy for years because he couldn't stand up, what was the audience and that feeling.

Yeah. comedy for years because he couldn't stand up you know what was the audience and that feeling yeah and then he went back and he realized when when he sees somebody who's not laughing he now he looks at them as like well you made the wrong choice tonight huh like it's yeah this isn't your show i'm not for you and it's not going to work out yeah but it's not a fault of mine right right yeah that's a that's a huge step yeah for a lot of people and we both know people 3 000 people could be laughing one person not laughing you just bore in on yeah and somehow you find them in the room like what about you fuck me fuck you no it's just no i'm sorry just i left something in the car yeah i have a herniated disc it's not has nothing to do with

you but like so how do we like so all that. How did we get to the comedy bunch rally? I kind of see it. I think that there was some... I was thinking about Embar the other day. Somebody tweeted at Proops about how he had tanked at Comedy Death Ray and he felt awful. There was so much pressure there was so it was so clicky and so like this uh this thing that you had to be involved with it was like the studio 54 of comedy at that time and all you want to do is be on those stages yeah

and they weren't great there was not a great room not for me anyways and i resented them i'm like who the fuck are you people oh yeah they and but i think there was it was all built on this false premise that this was some sort of revolutionary new movement in comedy because it just didn't it didn't hold everyone kind of went their own way and nobody had a strong enough point of view to take on whatever the fuck is happening now and many of those comics do they even do comedy anymore what was the intention that and and also those things are by nature finite you know punk didn't last forever either yeah i know but you got you and me for whatever reason we're lifers i don't know why you know and i can't

explain it but a lot of them weren't right and i don't know what their agenda was or what they thought it was or what they thought of stand-up but i think right one of the things that this fucking tribalization is happening is all these motherfuckers these anti woke you know anti cancel culture hacks right that you know tell sort of open mic level gross out joke and complain why they can't get work have co-opted this sort of you know truth teller Lenny Bruce revolutionary posture yeah because like on there they there's not many of them that exist in real life. And there's only ever been three or four of them in the history of the goddamn thing.

And what it is, oddly, it's people. It's very different from what we were doing. That is comedians. There are a lot of, it's not just white guys. But, you know, it's like a lot of a lot of white guys feel this way. A lot of people feel this way. And among people, some people are comedians. Yeah.

But what it really boils down to is people not wanting their way of life to change. People don't want to not be able to say certain things. They don't want to have they don't want to be to use their word. They don't want to be, to use their word, they don't want to be censored. But it's also really you don't want to be open to the fact that you might have to grow and change. But it's also just the evolution of language. We don't say Oriental anymore. No one's like, why can't I say Oriental? Right.

It's like the old guys that you say, oh, so I can listen to a rap song and they say the N word, but I can't say it? Yes. Exactly. You nailed it. They took it back. I just don't, yeah, I just don't understand. You know, I get that part of it. But like on our side, like I guess what I'm seeking for myself, because I watched that Carlin documentary.

You watched it? I did too. Yeah, it was really brilliant. You liked it? I did. I'm seeking for myself, because I watched that Carlin documentary. You watched it? I did, too. Yeah, it was really brilliant. You liked it? I did. I liked it a lot. And I was close to it. I actually interviewed him the same day Jon Stewart interviewed him in Aspen.

Oh, I saw that. Yeah. And I had a passing acquaintanceship with him, but he was everything to me as a comedian. I was so worshipped at his altar yeah uh that the fact that i liked it speaks very well of it you know oh yeah because i could have been like oh they left this out right you know no i thought it was thorough and i didn't know a lot of that stuff and like i to be honest And to be honest with you, after Class Clown and AMFM, after I was a kid, as a grown person, I kind of, it wasn't that I dismissed him.

I just wasn't interested because I couldn't feel the vulnerability in him. I felt that everything was very organized, very scripted. And as he got more angry, I don't know why I lost interest. But now, in watching the doc and seeing what he was doing where he just sort of – I always thought that it was Hicks that he had watched, but it was actually Kennesan. It was Sam Kennesan, yeah. That made him realize something. Scared him. Scared him, but also competitively he said, well, I can just speak truth.

Fuck it. Yeah. And a lot of the stuff he was saying was just raw, unfiltered truth about the hypocrisy of life. But because he had a cadence and this amazing ability to list things. Yes, he did. It's so funny. I'm going to tell you. And it's so funny. Apropos of nothing.

Yeah. Kelly, his daughter, is a friend of mine, a family friend of yours. One of his complaints about his mother was that she was always making lists. Really? It's like, duh. But yeah, but what he took to that he, you know, he had such an incredible toolkit. Yeah. That he could take a concept like the planet is fine, you know, and make it work.

Yeah. He could frame it into enough ways to sell it to an audience. Right. Yeah, that was what was really amazing. And he's a, you know, you got to admire the guy had four different personas, four or five. But also like he had accepted what grounded him was the fact that he believed that that we were doomed and that you know he was going to live within that and that somehow or another in later life he realized he somehow figured out a way to experience

some joy and and keep it on stage whatever that other thing was the the guy that lived there right yeah well put yeah so so but what's interesting to me is i i look at that thing as you know a documentary about a guy that unfortunately no one listened to yeah and and that you know for people to co-opt him or talk about truth-telling when no comic that i can see uh you know i i do what i can but none of the big acts are really doing what he did now because they're because they are playing into this tribalized nature out of ego Yeah, that that you know The biggest acts we have and people that are established as the greatest of all time or the new big guy Are still doing some version of like, you know, look at these pussies are like to please take my wife. Yeah, it's just

That's it. He was able to transcend his own narcissism. And I say narcissism in a way that we all are, any comedian is a narcissist. Anybody who thinks that, you know, you know who everybody in this room should be looking at and listening to? Me. Yeah. And I think that's true. Every president is a narcissist.

That's what I was just going to say. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely. Sure. You have to be. You know who should be the most powerful person in the world probably me yeah um really i don't see anyone else who could do it yeah i don't see anybody else around but he knew it and he struggled with it yeah i think i don't think that that you know many of us are pathological narcissists in the in the clinical way but we are narcissistic sure yeah well yeah that's what i meant there's a couple of people that are

pathological oh there's a lot of people go right out of the handbook yeah yeah yeah and and there's it's scary man it's scary and it's also i mean let's look at lenny bruce okay um who's you know carlin worshipped at the altar of lenny br, and he tried to do what Lenny Bruce did. Well, it's funny, like, with both him and Pryor, shortly after they were both influenced by Lenny Bruce, you can hear the cadence. Yes, you can. It's wild.

You can. Yeah. But what people, but, like, Lenny Bruce, the thing that brought Lenny Bruce down was he antagonized the court. Lenny Bruce, the thing that brought Lenny Bruce down was he antagonized the Catholic Archdiocese of Chicago and the police department that was full of Catholics. And also the judges. And the judges, the whole, yeah. And it was all, he goaded the Catholics.

And because he was a drug addict, he made himself vulnerable to an angered law enforcement. And also, did you see that doc that really framed it around him, you know, calling a judge on the take? Yeah. And that the entire fraternal order of judges were like, fuck that guy. Right. But it was also, he has that great line, Chicago is so corrupt, it's thrilling. Yeah. And, you know, that's what it was.

And then he became obsessed with his own trials and tribulations. He gets to the point where he's reading transcripts on stage, which gave us some of the worst comedy albums of all time. You know, the thing that people hold him up for as a martyr was not as good stuff. No, I think the best ones are the Berklee concert and Carnegie Hall probably. Yeah, and even American is a brilliant album, the Lima Ohio. Oh, the early ones were just, you know,

you can't even really hear the crowd, it's just jokes that were cut from different performances. Yeah, and it's just jazzy and, you know, and the way it was so... But like the Berklee concert, you're sort of like, I think I gotta take notes yeah and cardi g hall was just amazing because he was so lit you know yeah yeah yeah it was great but but then like reading you know reading the transcripts is like he's just now he's wrapped

up in his own drama right and he became the focus of his comedy like his and and that was the father of alternative comedy but yeah but it was just like it stopped being about and he was a he got bothered by it because at that point the censorship was coming from the right the censorship was coming from the catholic archdiocese of chicago and they were oppressing him now it's coming from the left yeah and comedians that take umbrage at it are in a strange position because the job of the comedian is supposed to say the emperor has no clothes yes you you you now the emperor said why are you against nudity well you defend you defend the down you defend the downtrodden and that's a weird thing is that is that interesting you know because i

mean i know carlin said that but natterman of all people you know had tweeted something that it hasn't left me about this sort of like you know comedy punches up and he's like historically that's not really true all the time like you know if you look at slapstick and you look at like you look at the nature of comedy it's not always punching up um i'm trying to find a good i'm trying to find a good example what i mean a lot of people made fun of everybody i mean ultimately the message of punches all around yeah yeah what it didn't but yes yeah yeah you punch sideways punch yourself yeah it was uh as uh you know equal. I'm an equal opportunity offender. But but it wasn't specifically, you know, now they find themselves feeling censored by the left.

And so they hit back. Right. But and I don't agree with the censorship part, but you need to be open to. Conversation and society. I will use myself as an example i was on a podcast several years ago and said a terribly offensive thing about trans people uh about uh alexis arquette who was still alive at the time and i saw her at a restaurant yeah and i And I said a really shitty thing. And a trans blogger called me out. Yeah. And I listened to them. And I had them all.

And then a lot of, I didn't know I had trans people that liked me. And a lot of people said I'm really disappointed. And so I this person on my podcast uh named shadi patas yeah and uh kind of read me the riot act and at the end i realized like oh i'm the asshole here you heard it yeah and it was just like i'm the asshole i I was completely wrong. And it wasn't out of... What was the nature of it? I just said, I said, I don't want to repeat it because I don't want people to quote it, but it was very disparaging about Alexis's appearance. I get it.

Okay. Yeah. So you're judging, you're objectifying and dismissing. Yeah, it was awful. It was awful. I mean, it was, I didn't, here's the thing. Yeah. I didn't think about it. I just said it was i didn't here's the thing yeah i didn't think about it i just said it sure and there's a problem and think about it because i didn't i wasn't

thoughtful but but the interesting thing about us because i have similar stories and this is sort of where it's a good place to be with this conversation is that you know i've done that too but when you get called on it your your gut goes like no i it's uh no i i uh i'm right yeah yeah yeah it's funny yeah oh what i can't say this yeah yeah you can't and i and uh and that was a situation where i could have absolutely doubled down and go like oh so i can't say it i didn't i don't hate her i didn't hurt her yeah like she can't take a joke, so I can't say it. I don't hate her. I didn't hurt her. Like, she can't take a joke. Right.

How's she going to live in society if she can't take a joke? I'm here to help her. Yeah. Right. People say that. Yeah. People say that. Toughen up.

Yeah. You know, Joe Rogan said he was using trans humor to, he was making fun of trans people, using a disparaging comment, because he was trying to point out the, when he got called on it, he was just trying to point out the ugliness of the word to try to lessen the word's impact. You know, let them do that. We know that word isn't good. Yeah, and also we live in a culture that is so sort of bubble oriented and each community has and should have a voice and that's what you know

sort of brings people together that we have that capability now that these communities can speak for themselves so you can't rationalize using something destructive as as somehow integrating them yeah and look lenny bruce did it you know who's like lenny bruce nobody right that's what i was saying and there's nobody like Carlin. Right. And that there's this boutiquing of issues that people just, I don't understand what they're defending, but this is- They're defending, look, as they say in recovery, you grow or you go. And at a certain point, people have a choice.

You can be a Muppet on a stage or a muppet in the balcony but you know i don't want to be statler and waldorf but but i think ultimately though it's there they they defend because that juice of of aggravation of that being aggrieved at this idea that you're being censored or stifled, that becomes their point of view, and that becomes the selling point of what they're doing. And it's hack, man. It's super hack, and it's the same thing. The outrage is the same thing that all of these hate groups have. It's like, no, things are different.

I don't want them to be different. Yeah. Let's go back to this mythological thing that never never existed it never existed yeah but it's it's it's the same thing i don't want things to change sorry right the only thing that never changes is the fact that everything always changes right but but the next step of i don't want anything to change is you you know, shut the fuck up. Yeah. Or I'm going to kill you. Yeah.

And that's the that's the other thing that the I never saw stand up comedy as a particularly macho, you know, because I wasn't. And no. And I mean, I remember. And look, I have four older athletic brothers. Do you remember Rich Francesi? Yes, I do. Like when he showed up, I'm like, oh, they're coming. Here they are.

Well, it started with Dice, but Dice said it was a cartoon. But only it wasn't. It's so weird because Dice is funny sometimes. And I can't. A lot of these guys are funny. And I don't mean to shit on Rich rich rich was kind of a sweet guy but like just as as the comedy nerdy guy and i'm not really a nerd but i'm not like when he showed up with the brawn we're not ripped yeah yeah we're not ripped yeah and i'm working out enough yeah and i don't i and i never understood that even

and again from uh like as from a writing point of view like i also i have two careers i'm also a writer and i would never write a comedic character that was physically invulnerable yeah that's not what comedy is to me yeah it was always i mean i know that he's he's not someone to uh to hold up anymore but i i think it was in it was in play it against sam or banana yeah there's an early woody allen movie where he's gonna get the shit kicked out of it and he kind of jokes his way out of it and when i was 12 getting beaten up every day um i was like i love this guy yeah because he made it okay to not be a tough guy yeah and also like all the comics when all the comedy when i no longer feel that way reality and events have caused me to evolve my opinion you know where you know the

comedy stars even when we were in you know john candy john belushi yeah uh you know these weird looking fact i know who's a comedy star today uh r Reynolds, I guess. Yeah. Daniel Craig's kind of funny sometimes. Daniel Craig, yeah. Does everybody have to be an Adonis? No, he's the wacky Adonis. Yeah. It's like- Yeah, it's got that, but those Canadians, yeah?

Isn't Ryan- Yeah, they're all, yeah. But show me who's a comedy star today that looks like a person. Yeah. That's why I loved, loved the new season of kids in the hall oh yeah it's so i'm watching it now it's so it's it's actually i i i texted uh kevin yeah uh i was like it's not only hilarious and still cutting edge yeah it's beautiful yeah like none of those guys have been in the gym they all look like human beings you know they look like me meanwhile i woke up today i'm like fuck i can't

hike because i gotta do eddie peppertone's podcast yeah oh yeah believe me i work out just what do we think is gonna just well i just don't like feeling sore and stiff i like feeling fat well yeah that that's a whole other conversation but going back to like this idea and i appreciate you not pointing out how fat i am yeah no you're doing all right no i know how i look you'll work out later that's why I'm dressed you know why I'm dressed? I didn't work out yet but I didn't want to forget that I had to so I'm dressed, right when you leave

I'm like I'm going to struggle with the I'm going to go to the mountain I understand completely but talking about this difference between because it's weird and you and I are similar in that we've been doing this a long time we know a lot of the guys that you know have gotten into trouble for one reason or another we know you know guys who have faded away we know what comedy looks like you know when it comes back around and you're

like holy shit what do you been doing you know are you all right and you know that yeah there's a weird humanity to it all yeah yes yes yes but it's like plumber you know it's like plumbers. You know, it's like plumbers. Sure, sure, sure. Hey, you're still here. Hey, how are you? What happened with the lawsuit? Yeah, yeah.

With the building that blew up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I saw a comedian in the airport, and it was like, hey, what's going on? And my fiance was like, who's that? I was like, oh, he's my friend. You've never mentioned their name. Oh, but I saw him. Yeah, yeah.

It's like, he was in my oh, it's my friend. You've never mentioned their name. Oh, but I saw him. Yeah. It's like, he was in my unit. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. I saw Joey Kamen at the 50th anniversary of the Comedy Store

and I don't think anyone has been as excited to see him as I have. I was at the 50th anniversary of the Comedy Store and I was like looking at people and I'm like, oh,

I forgot who that is and I'd go in the hallway to find the picture. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Bob. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Bob Golub. Yeah, Bob Golub. There's a case. He's another guy way to find the picture oh yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah bob gollum yeah bob oh yeah bob gollum there's there's a case he's another guy like i'm i'm pretty sure he's still alive i don't want to

upset him yeah yeah i can't say nothing yeah because you don't want to get that text it's like i heard you talking to dana like oh my god how do you still have my number but uh it happens but this is but the interesting thing to me is i got that's why i printed this stuff up is i've had these moments where you know i'm not going to double down because i think that you know tolerance and and engagement and and learning and growing is important and i and i and the example i usually use about language is that there's a reason we don't say these things anymore. It's out of respect.

Yeah. And that we all are humans and we're all trying to, you know, exist in the same plane here. But there is some weird othering going on and there is the threat of this other sort of tribalized comedy, you know, sort of hijacking culture. This is what. Yeah. This is fundamentally like a lot of us have sort of accept our boutique fame in that like hey i've got my thousand people or my ten thousand people i've got my little show on a thing that nobody watches i got but we don't have the culture so like you know i don't know

obviously everything is is specialized in like people like segura who's one of the good guys yeah you know has created his own show business and a lot of these guys create their own show business but that also feeds into the sort of like, you know, liberal Jewish elite Hollywood thing is that Hollywood has become really unnecessary for a great many people. And, you know, when I went back into it, when I went back into it from being in The Simpsons and I really had to get back into the business from a standing start. Yeah. I looked at you and I looked at paul f tompkins yeah and i was like you guys

have built your own boat yeah and you've sort of mitigated the need for gatekeepers um and that was what i aspired to do right it's creatively challenging to adapt to new rules. Yeah, there are absolutely liberal excesses. You know, I don't like the idea of, you know, I didn't like that joke. Don't show that special. Yeah, no. I don't like that. Yeah.

It's like, you don't watch it. Yeah. They'll hear. There you go. They'll hear. That's how that works. Yeah. It's like, you don't watch it. Yeah. They'll hear. There you go. They'll hear. That's how that works. Yeah. Because then somebody can decide they don't like what you're saying.

Well, yeah. And they can take yours off. But it's easy to gripe about new developments and rules and culture. And all I see when I hear that hear that you know about people complaining about trans people you can't say this you can't say that you can't do that now you can't say that now as all i see in my mind is bob hope and jack benny making fun of the beach boys yeah you know it's like i don't want to be that guy well no but i think that this kind of conversation has been happening cliff nesteroff pointed that out since the beginning of comedy it's always been an issue but i i think that like for me it's weird because it's primarily in the

stand-up you know here and i think one of the ways that you and i have prepared to protect ourselves over the years is by talking exclusively about ourselves right so you know if you're not stepping out there and saying this is fucked up or that's fucked up and this is you you know then you're not in that that dialogue well it allows you to make the it also allows you to make a point without telling people that they're idiots like right i do a bit about guns and i have to say out of the gate i own a gun yeah and then i have a hilarious joke mark yeah i say i have a gun because I live in a big scary city and I'm afraid the day might come when I have to kill my family or some people at work.

But what it does is it inoculates the audience. I'm not saying you're a Nazi if you own a gun, but then the people that hoard weapons and then even somebody that owns a couple of guns is not in that group because it's like, well, you you and I know we're OK. Yeah. But these people. Yeah. And then if that if that if you are open, if I can make it so that you hear me. Yeah. Then later on, you might have you might look at yourself and go i'm kind of like that yeah you know right and and i will say no yeah i do that too you know like but and i come from a family of gun owning trump on uh trump lovers yeah i have i grew up in new mexico a lot of guns around my dad had guns i had a gun cabinet in my bedroom as a child yeah because it was the

only room in the house that it fit in. The first thing I saw when I opened my eyes in the morning was like a dozen rifles. And they all vote for Trump and they all love Trump, but none of them think you need an AR-15. None of them. And these are cops and prison guards and people that hunt. You don't need it. Yeah. You don't need it. Yeah. You don't need it.

Yeah. You know, so even the people that you think are, it's a minority of very loud moneyed people. That's the other thing. It's like, you know,

I didn't get into this to be part of a group. I don't want to be in the comedy civil war. Yeah, and I don't want to be, and I'm not a comedy cop because I'm,

you know, I'm kind of a dirty boy. You know, like, I mean, I do, like I did a bit on my last special. I said I'm about 85% woke. Yeah.

And the other 15 I keep to myself. And that's what being woke is. It's making decisions. Yeah. Around, you know. That's really brilliant. Yeah. Yeah, you don't want to be 100% woke.

That's awful. I don't even know what that would be. But, you know, anything. Well, it's like, it's that whole thing. Like somebody, I believe it was Elvis Costello once what's described jackson brown as fuck me i'm so sensitive yeah um yeah you don't want to be that no you don't want to be that but it's all part of this movement and and and i think that there needs to not i like again there's no civil war but you know how do we you know how do we start to talk about this is it just that that

you know all these other communities have inclusive comedians like the the gay lgbt community has their comedians native americans have their comedians the asians have their comedians the mexican like is that the way it's gonna work now is there just no way the balkan the balkanization of comedy yes i mean it could, it could be. I mean, comedy is a lot. I always say that comedy is like music. Yeah. And, you know, there are, you know, you could, I'm trying to even think of an example of like, you'd see a comedian.

I shouldn't be on the same bill with that comedian. Right, right, right. Totally different, totally different sensibilities. Right. And it could be that it's like, yeah, he's a heavy metal comic. He's an alt comic. Sure. It could be.

But we've all been on those bills. Yeah. I guess I'm just trying to land on this idea, like what we said about before, is that a lot of the people that are part of the tribe over there, they call themselves comedy fans, but they're the first to say, fuck you. You're not a real comedian. Well, like tell me something yeah well i don't i don't agree with that and i don't find any of it funny it's just you're just whining but yeah but but it's like but those aren't comedy fans they're no that's what i mean they're like radicalized weirdos yeah and they just they don't

laugh they that's not a and that's not to be confused with this response. No, that's a comedian's laugh. That's a comedian's laugh. Yeah. Because we have no joy left in our bodies. It's right in the throat. It's an acknowledgement. Yeah. That's all it is.

And you know it in the back of the room. The other one is... Oh, the comic's like... Funny. Funny. Yeah. That's funny. Yeah, yeah, that's funny.

I laugh more now. But I was addressing... I have to tell you, I had a very... What? I've been very, very lucky in my life, and one of the things that I got to do was I got to work with Mel Brooks for a prolonged period of time,

and that was Mel. He would go, that's funny. That's good. That's a writer. Yeah, yeah. That's funny yeah that's good that's a writer yeah yeah that's funny but this idea of of of i think that there there is some part of a of not a solution but there is something about engaging in in the conversation because i've had a couple moments recently where i've had to rethink things because of of people being triggered in one way or another. Oh, interesting.

That, you know, because I don't really, I'm doing a lot more stand-up and I'm starting to push again. I can feel myself pushing. Like stepping out there and sort of like, all right, let's get real. Let's get more real. Right. And do you have to do that? Do you, do you, and you have to do that, I'm assuming, you're at the point now where like, do you do you and you have to do that i'm assuming that you're at the point now where like you've anything new you're going to try out you got to put it 20 20 minutes in because i don't

know your first 15 to 20 minutes because you're you yeah they're gonna laugh kind of i mean but it's not i can like i'm loose enough now and i'm doing you know i'm not doing i'm not taking an opener so i'm just i'm riffing a lot. Right. And I'm just putting myself in the moment of what's happening. But the two things that cause trouble are oddly things that will just cause trouble. I just told a story that I don't even know if it'll stay in the act. And I've pissed these people off before, where I kind of make fun of Hasidic Jews. where I kind of make fun of Hasidic Jews. Because I have an honest problem with religious fanaticism and sect, S-E-C-T.

I won't call them a cult, but they're insulated and they're exclusionary. Yeah. And there are problems that I have with that. Yeah. So I made light of something where I made the assumption that this Hasidic woman I saw who was probably 40 years old and was standing there with five kids looked despondent and lost and existentially drained and exhausted and looked like she was in trouble. You know, that was a judgment I made. Yeah. But the joke was, you know, and I thought for a second, like I could save her, but it went away quickly.

But it's part of a bigger story and i yeah but i got an email from a woman who is a psychotherapist for that community oh my gosh she she her clients are people who live in religious communities and that you know maybe you know that that i'm not seeing the full picture that i'm being you know i'm categorizing them in a way that's not true because a lot of people find meaning and joy in this. And the argument sort of unfolded with me going like, well, that may be true, but it's still a religious cult in a way. And it's misogynistic. And they create trauma in people that will last generations as a way of holding on to the community. And I basically said, I don't even know what you could be doing. What are you treating?

Because I see the nature of those communities pathological. Right. So what are you treating? How could she be anything but an enabler? Right, right, right. In my point of view. But that's my point of view. Right.

So she goes, well, I guess we see it differently. And that's where it had to end. And I realized, all right, well, I might not need to make fun of them. But that was, to me informative is that like you know i can have this opinion and it's legit from where i stand because i believe it right but you know i'm not being anti-semitic no and you got no and you and this woman aren't that's what i was being accused of i guess in a way is anti-semitism as a jew it gets touchy yeah this is not the time aren't they doing that enough yeah yeah you're also in two different realities yeah it's weird you know yeah that's where i go with a lot and i have the same thing about fundamentalist atheists you know it's just a different form of fundamentalism so you think i'm an idiot and i'm

and i'm not religious. Yeah, I used to do a thing about that. There are no atheist soup kitchens. So let's not quit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, exactly. And it's like, so I'm an idiot because I think I know what happens after I die. Yeah.

You, on the other hand, absolutely know what happens after you die. It's just in your view, it's nothing. Yeah. But you know that for sure right so you're not an idiot you know it's like right yeah yeah there's a dogma to both yeah is it possible that something beyond our comprehension could occur yeah you know i've said this a billion times my dog cannot conceive of my computer yeah but they can be in the same room at the same time it's possible that something beyond your comprehension can exist and you just don't see. Sure. Sure. And we're all waiting for more

information. Yeah. Yeah. That's why I believe in the Hulk. Sure. I'll die on that hill. Yeah. The other thing that I got pushed back on from was talking about mentally ill person, about having sex with mentally ill people. Right. Like I talk about this crazy woman and I say it's, I'm not saying crazy that women are crazy. I'm not using it in a misogynistic way.

This was in a mentally ill person. Yeah. And then I go off on, you know, just talking about borderline personality people. Right. I'm like,

go look that up and see how many of those symptoms are hot to you. That's my entire dating profile. Yeah. Right. But like I got a woman, again,

a therapist said she was at my show with a borderline person and she has borderline people in treatment and I was being an ableist and that, you know, not all of them, because I basically say they're out there walking among us, ruining lives.

Dude, I was complaining to a therapist years ago, complaining to a therapist about somebody that I dated for a long time. Yeah. And I was like, this, this, this is and he reaches up on the shelf yeah and opens up a book and says read this and i didn't see the cover of the book and i just read and i was like that's her and he goes now look at the spine of the book and it was the textbook of borderline personality right but but but my point was is that they are out there walking among us without with either fighting their their diagnosis or not knowing that they're out there just

destroying lives and well and it's and it i know in my case it dovetailed because it's like oh my god you know that i want to be loved but you also know that i'm to be hated yeah this is perfect but they but they don't know what but but my point was that she she she said that like you know i don't if you're going to do that bit you know you've got to take responsibility for your own mental illness i'm like no problem yeah have you seen my act yes yeah and you know i need to continue doing that bit because again but again it's one of those things where i believe that i'm helping but but i can i can easily see how it would be offensive to a certain type.

Yeah. But what you're not saying is I don't understand why borderline people don't think I'm awesome. It's like, you know, but it's like, these are like, these are very nuanced things. Well, it's also, anything can be awful. You know, I, I, this is, here's a joke. Here's a joke from my act, Mark. Yeah. I was at a restaurant.

It was a vegetarian restaurant. And I mentioned that i was not a vegetarian yeah this person said you'll eat a steak i said yeah i'll have a steak oh but you don't want to watch them murder the cow yeah right i love my brother i don't want to watch my parents fuck yeah it's like you don't have to drag everything back to the point where it's awful everything is awful eventually yeah everything you can trace everything back right the point where it's awful. Everything is awful eventually. Yeah. Everything, you can trace everything back to out of shape people fucking. Right. And it's all in, you know, when you're telling this story,

you're talking about a situation that you had, you're not saying, you know what the problem with bipolar people is? Sure, sure. You know, it's like. No, I get that. I get that. And also there's a difference between, you know, assuming a position of exclusionary ideology, you know, in defense point where things are changing so rapidly. And so seismically. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That there are things that you don't understand. The fact that you don't understand them doesn't make it wrong. You're just old. Yeah. Or just like you're just not being thoughtful. Right. yeah or just like you're just not being thoughtful right you know what i said uh about poor alexis arquette was i wasn't being thoughtful being insensitive that's all and i and i literally i literally was not thinking of her well that's it that i think that's there's it wasn't like

but it's in a way it's worse it wasn't like i'm gonna say this thing about her it's gonna really suck it's gonna get back to her and haha i was like no it's not. It wasn't like, I'm going to say this thing about her. It's going to really suck. It's going to get back to her. Ha ha. I was like, no, it's not a person. I'll just say this. But I don't even think it was that. I think that there's a difference between being insensitive and being racist.

There's a difference between being insensitive or a bit ignorant and being misogynistic. Ignorant and thoughtless. Just thoughtless. That's right. But sometimes, yeah, you know, misogynistic. Ignorant and thoughtless. Just thoughtless. That's right. But sometimes, yeah, you got it. But then you listen. Yeah.

That's all. I mean, it's sort of like, that's good. I never thought of that before. There's got to be room for that. Yeah. You can't call yourself progressive if you don't let other people progress. Right. Or tell you that you're standing in the way of something.

Yeah. Or that you're wrong about something. Right. As opposed to just going like, no, fuck you. Yeah, and I did a bit in a special about the R word and equating it with the N word and the C word. Sure. And, God, supermarket's so funny.

But people that came after me and wrote a letter to Showtime, like, how can you air this? And where I was literally examining the word. No, I've done a bit about that. But I did have initially a thing like, it's just the R word. It used to be on signs. Yeah. It's like, it's not the same thing.

Right. I can say it. Right. And then, hey, what do you know? You meet people who have members of on signs. Yeah. It's like, it's not the same thing. Right. I can say it. Right. And then, hey, what do you know? You meet people who have members of the family. Right. And it really hurts them. Yes.

And you go, oh, okay. Oh, so wait a minute. Oh, I was wrong. Yeah. Yeah. But that's it. And you put it in a special. So it becomes like that's the other thing is sort of like, so now that's held up.

Look, this guy is forever wrong. It's i don't know we all evolve like somebody like criticized a bit i did on letterman years ago and i have it on you know i think i have the video on my website it's out there and he says you might want to you know get rid of that because and i'm like no no i mean it's like there's nothing i can do about that it. It is what it is. It's a different time. Revenge of the nerds. Revenge of the nerds ends with a date rape. That's the hilarious conclusion of the movie. Because it was made at a time when you could make that joke, and it was so silenced that people, it was a different time.

People had a different attitude. Were they right? No. Was date rape less evil then than it is now? No. But this was made at a time when you did that and nobody even thought about it. As that. Right.

So do you delete the movie or do you hold it up as an example of, yeah, this is how fucked up our culture was. When it was insensitive. Yeah. This is how fucked up our culture was. Right. Yeah. You know?

Yeah. Groucho Marx sings like Paul Robeson in Duck soup yeah what are you gonna do yeah do you hate Groucho Marx forever yeah exactly at the time that's what people did again the what I always come what I always try to come back to is and I benefit from also having children that aren't white. Yeah. And my daughters are Chinese. Yeah. And to see the world through their eyes and to be educated by them. That's it. Well, that's the blind side of people who are narcissistic,

not necessarily pathologically narcissistic, is that you have to learn empathy. Empathy, yeah. If there's anything that I don't, and the reason that I was so disturbed during the previous administration was that empathy became viewed as weakness. It's so necessary.

Tolerance and empathy are necessary for collective democracy or community to work. But there is a large swath of our culture that has always been there, only now because of technology they are organized yeah better and broadcast but they're they've always been there the john birch society no yes of course yeah that that view it as that view understanding and sympathy and empathy as weakness. But also as like a threat to white culture primarily that we can't look at these people as equals.

Right. And that's the danger. And to see that codified is very disturbing. To see that like, no, it's good. It's good. That was the thing. Well, that's fascism. Well, that's the thing that really that mixed with you know no barometer of collective truth yeah yeah and and

by the way right out of the handbook yeah right out of the handbook i know nothing new yeah nothing new but i like this idea of of because i had this experience at the uh at the african-american museum in in dc where it's sort of like sort of like sometimes with other cultures or with other people and their ethnic groups, you're empathetically hobbled because you don't know their experience. So how do you put yourself in their place? So it requires education. It requires an amount of listening. it requires being told you're wrong yeah and to to sort of get hip to to what the experience was collectively for that other person or of that other group yeah uh you know with somebody who's just sort of like you know alcoholic or or has you know mental problems or you know a

buddy empathy is is similar because you know it's easier to empathize because you're in the same frequency but a lot of us are not on the same frequency and it's on you yeah i had no idea like i didn't understand why there was such an aversion in african-american culture to the vaccinations it's because i didn't have any knowledge of the government never lied to me and sterilization yeah or tuskegee or any of that stuff it's like oh they have a cultural bias sure that's well earned not everybody you know not right certain sections of certain cultures um uh and uh and again that's pure ignorance not in a negative way it was just like i didn't know what i didn't know yeah and that and there has to be room for that uh and and and i guess that's we

just have to keep plugging along with that even in the face of people going you know who gives a fuck right but it's also there's a but as a comedian do that bit yeah i know yeah you can do a bit about that absolutely you know absolutely places? Absolutely. There's places you're not, it's like, how do we do comedy anymore? Well, you have to try. Yeah, yeah. You gotta work a little bit.

Yeah, find it. Yeah. You gotta find it. And that's the challenge. I've had a couple breakthroughs recently. It's great. But that's the fun of it. Yeah, that's the fun of it.

The fun is not making people go like, what the fuck? Yeah, I mean, I'll use a, you know, limitations, whether they're financial or creative yeah are great yeah you know we both had shows on ifc yeah we didn't have a lot of money no but we

got you had to be a little creative yeah you know yeah yeah until you got frustrated and stopped until you were told that you didn't want to do the show anymore. Yeah, exactly. I don't? Well, I told them I didn't want to. No, we had a different situation. But I came up with something the other night because I'm just trying to bend my brain into something to try to address certain things. And I've got this joke that I'm doing about abortion clinics,

but I'm trying to set up the issue. And it just hit me two nights ago where I'm like, you know, why, you know, of course women should be able to choose, but what I don't understand is why more men are talking about it. Because let's be honest, if you have any game at all, you've paid for one of these things. You've had the conversation, so do what you want to do, but of course, how much? How much do you need? Yeah. You need a ride. Yeah. And then like and then I said the line, I said, look, I'll fly back into town. I can't. Well, hang on. Let me get my calendar. But but but the thing is, is like, you know, where are the it's not even that I'm being self-righteous, but it's not even a matter of allyship.

It's just sort of like we're half of the equation. Right. Half of the equation. And it's a fundamental aspect of the human experience. I have to tell you this just because it's so – to talk about how culture's changed. Yeah. Flipping the channels. Airport.

1969. Yeah. Dean Martin is a pilot. His wife drops him off at the airport the first thing he does is he goes in and sees the stewardess he's sleeping with yeah and she says i'm pregnant yeah first line we'll get you the best doctor there is you're not going to some butcher above a drugstore it's like well can we have the conversation first? Wow. That's an airport? That's an airport. And it's not a comedy. Like, that's... A butcher above a drugstore.

Yeah. Wow. Yeah. Yeah, man. Well, this is... It's just a different time. I do a whole bit about that. It's a stringer in my new act about my mother's boyfriend.

The whole premise is he thinks he's telling stories he's not. They're not stories. bit about that it's a stringer in my new act about my my my my mother's boyfriend who like the whole premise is like he thinks he's telling stories he's not they're not stories they're just bits and pieces and you don't even know they don't land they don't go anywhere that's not a story and well but i swear but i say you don't even know they're over until he wistfully says it was a different time and i just i keep hitting it hitting it. And it's like, it's hilarious. It eventually gets to the point where I just, I do him. And it gets to this point where I go like, he goes, let me tell you a story. I'm like, what?

He's like, New York City. It's raining out. Different time. With me, it's when people recount a dream that wasn't a dream. I dreamt that you and I were in Encino and you had to buy a tennis racket. That's not a dream. That can happen. Wow.

That's crazy. Yeah, I know. Was one of us a giant worm? My arm flippers? Yeah, how does this make this a dream? Yeah, I was going to make this a dream. Yeah, yeah, yeah. All right, man. When are you getting married?

I'm getting married in August to a beautiful woman who, it was funny, I was really sure I wasn't going to date anybody else, and then I met someone and I thought, well, she's way too pretty for me. And she went for it. Let's give it a shot. Yeah, yeah. I've done that one. Yeah. No, it's great. And it's great to be in a healthy relationship where when shit

comes up, we go, okay. Let's unpack this. You mean as opposed to stuff it until you blow up unnecessarily about something else? And they're like, why are you so mad about that? Yeah. I know how I'm going to handle this with quiet. It's good talking to you, man.

Great to see you. That was Dana Gould. His web series is called Hanging with Dr. Z. You can watch it at hangingwithdrz.com or check it out on YouTube for all my tour information and whatnot. wtfpod.com slash tour. If you're looking for a dog and you're in the L.A. area,

go to my Instagram, at Mark Maron, and look at the pictures of the doggy that, uh, over at the, uh, Pasadena Humane that, uh, Kit loves. This dog Mimi, I think her name is a, a pit bull mix trying to get her adopted into a nice home. This won't be a regular thing on my podcast. a nice home. This won't be a regular thing on my podcast. She just is very close to the dog and wants to see it land in a good home

as opposed to land in the grave or land in a hole. Okay, let's play some guitar on my new banker Leslie. Thank you. Thank you. Boomer lives. Monkey La Fonda. Cat angels everywhere. Boomer lives. Monkey Lafonda. Cat angels everywhere. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence.

Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category,

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