WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1344 - Laura Veirs

Episode Date: June 30, 2022

Singer-songwriter Laura Veirs has something to prove with her latest album, Found Light. After divorce ended her 20-years-long collaborative relationship with her producer husband, Laura not only needed to prove she could create a new album independently, but she needed to be sure of who she was in the world going forward. Laura and Marc talk about love and loss and the power of therapeutic mushrooms. They also talk about how Laura suffers from imposter syndrome when she’s around her other collaborators, k.d. lang and Neko Case. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck

nicks what the fucking ears this is is Mark Maron. This is my podcast. I'm not wearing headphones. I can't hear myself right now. There's been some problems. Are you okay? Is everything okay with you? Did I do the intro right? I'm losing my mind. I'm losing my mind right now. I couldn't sleep. I'm in Canada. I'm here shooting a thing. My voice is a little shaky. I got up up I just did a zoom interview you know about our big change over to Acast and I didn't sleep I couldn't sleep I have to shoot all day today I shot all day yesterday I don't know if I can tell you about what I'm doing maybe I can tell you a little bit about it but relax let's all relax I'm sorry I can walk you through

what's happening I can walk you through it let's just relax okay you'm sorry. I can walk you through what's happening. I can walk you through it. Let's just relax. Okay. You know, I just had the window. We shot until like midnight last night. Okay. I'm shooting this. It's a mini series. It's a horror mini series. You know, I play this, I play an asshole, but they wanted me, they wanted my special kind of asshole. They wanted me to tap into that sort of deep well of asshole that i have inside of me and uh so i'm up here and i'm doing this thing and it was it was a it was a long day of shooting and it started with like a five or six page scene of just yelling and then there was a whole other scene where i had to get undressed over and over again and it was and i'm on set and you don't know it's like being at a casino you don't

know what time it is you don't know what's going on and uh outside so you know someone on set goes you want coffee i'm like yeah i'll take coffee and i drank coffee and then uh i also uh i also had a diet coke at some point and um and then i realized like oh my god that was two hours ago and now it's midnight so i get back here to the hotel and i gotta sleep because i got big scenes today they're picking me up in 20 minutes and uh couldn't sleep because i'd caffeinated myself and everybody knows that fucking feeling everybody has made that mistake before but after a certain point after a certain age you think maybe i'm not going to make that mistake again maybe it's not you know maybe i can you know not do that so there i was in my bed two in the morning not sleeping and you kind of do that thing where i have to calm my mind you can't

panic you know there's an impulse to be like i'm gonna do some push-ups i'm gonna run around maybe i should just masturbate again maybe i should should watch some television. But no, I just, from the brief six or seven months of meditating that I did, I just got into sort of, what I usually do is I do a repetition of the serenity prayer. Grab me the serenity to accept the things I can't change, courage to change the things I can, the wisdom to no difference, and just kind of get that rolling and just have something, a repetition. Sometimes I'll shake my foot, just keep that distraction going just so your brain kind of jumps into that zone where it can go to sleep. But I'm just pushing back the panic, following the breath,

not listening to the other noises in my head, trying to just let them fall to the wayside so I don't freak myself out and end up up all night. And then you start to do that thing where you're like, am I sleeping? Is this sleeping? Is this like something my brain just making up? Am I watching a movie? You sort of start to hallucinate with your own head because you're kind of forcing it and letting it happen because you want to jump. You kind of want to grab onto a hallucination so you can get to sleep. So there was a lot of that going on. And then I don't know, at some point it happened. So I think I got like five or six hours of sleep. Anyway, that's where I'm at. And I'm in Canada. I'm in Toronto, which I love.

Please, please, God, may my future be in Canada when things get really horrible or more horrible or more on fire than they are in the United States. I like the boringness. I like the earnestness. I like that everybody dresses sort of roughly the same way, seemingly from the same manufacturer up here. I just like the pace.

I just, I'm relaxed. Can you hear that in my voice? I'm relaxed. Did I mention Laura Veers is here? Now she is a singer songwriter who actually made a pretty big splash back in 2005 with her album year of meteors. And she's part of the group case laying in veers with Nico case and Katie Lang. She has a new album coming out next week called found light. I love the way she plays guitar and write songs. And she's also was close to Lynn Shelton and did some work in some of Lynn's movies or on one movie. And it was just one of those things where Lynn loved her.

And they were very much in touch during the pandemic in the last couple of years of Lynn's life. And I just wanted to sort of honor that. And I had had her record many years ago. I had that record in 2005. So I knew she had this record coming out and I knew she was working on it and I knew Lynn and her were talking about it. So I wanted to talk to her. So that's going to happen. That'll happen for you. The new cap mugs are in. That I will tell you as well. There are new mugs. these are really new because they're buster and sammy designs and they're based on the artwork done by our friend dima

who did the old mugs with all the old crew on it the boomer and monkey and lafond and me crew they go on sale today it's the only time you can get them other than uh if you're a guest on my show these are made by brian jones and you can get them starting today at noon Eastern at brianjones.com slash WTF. He's also, Brian's also going to send 10% of his profits to the National Network of Abortion Funds. Maybe more incentive to buy the mug, though the mugs look great. They look great. Sammy and buster mugs they're spectacular i'm fucking losing it man you don't know what i went through with this machine did i already address that listen i'll be in london these are overseas dates happening folks i'll be in london at the bloomsbury theater saturday and sunday october 22nd and 23rd. Tickets go on sale tomorrow, July 1st at 10 a.m. local time.

And I'll be back in Dublin at Vicar Street Wednesday, October 26th. Tickets also go on sale tomorrow at 10 a.m. And one more thing, people. In case you didn't hear the ad at the top of the show, today is our last day as part of Stitcher Premium. Our free ad-supported shows will be on Stitcher still. But for the ad-free archives, you'll need to sign up through Acast Plus on Tuesday, July 5th. We'll have a link in the show notes on your podcast app next Tuesday, as well as on WTFpod.com.

Okay? Whew, man. Oh, my God. Just spiraling. I can't get out from under the darkness i'm eating badly you know i'm still not you know obviously none of us are sort of like i feel like my voice is shaky i just you know it just sort of astounds me you know i don't know where you know i i've evolved a bit of empathy over time more empathy it's deeper I don't know if it's from tragedy. I don't

know if it's from talking to people intimately for a living. I don't know if it's getting older. I don't know if it's the number of heartbreaks I've had or I've caused. I don't know if it's just sort of a reckoning with who I was and who I am, changing behavior. But I cannot see what is happening in America in relation to the freedom of choice as anything but an attack on women. This is really just about controlling women. It's about threatened men and religious fanatics controlling women and it's fucking awful it's just continues to be heartbreaking and i don't know that there's still much language around it in terms of you know men talking about it and like i i don't know i i maybe i just my brain is different the way i hear most men talk about women, it's complaining about women. There is a thread of comedy that stems probably from the beginning of people being aggravated,

that it's some sort of riff on take my wife, please. Oh, my wife. I mean, there are popular comics right now doing versions of Alan king jokes you know just like survived by his wife you know just this this constant tone that i become more and more sensitive to as i get more and more distance from having you know normal relationships and and in living the life i live It is sort of a full-on attack based in men being threatened by women and men being jealous of women and men being afraid that they're not going to live up to women or being made a fool of by women. They just need to shut them down. They're intricately connected to women. They came out of them. So that relationship is generally fraught in some peculiar way from day one. But this is just an

all-out attack, not just on the autonomy on women, but culturally, it's going to cause rape. That's what this is going to do. It's going to cause rape and death, but I guess the Christians are willing to absorb that. But that is one of the most terrifying things to me, just thinking of it empathetically, that these are going to be the repercussions of overturning Roe v. Wade, is that the incidences of rape within relationship, within marriages, and just rape in general

are going to escalate infant mortality is going to go up women dying in childbirth or women dying to try to give themselves their own abortion is going to go up and it's just like it's it's pervading you know outside of just the political culture and environmental collapse of america and the world this just is pervading and it's somehow really shattered my heart in a way and i'm look i'm surprised by it myself again i'm not really a virtue signaling kind of guy but this is going to shift the entire dynamic and sense of well-being of women and people in the united states it's just fucking terrible and i'm sad about it and i'm here in canada and uh for two days i'm just not cut out for this shit anymore sometimes i think that oh my god i'm okay i'm all right i'm okay so now we're gonna let me bring i talked to laura veers

her new album found light comes out next friday july 8th you can pre-order it now wherever you buy your music and uh i hope this came out i hope this this machine is oh my god it's it. It's 10 in the morning and I'm exhausted. Spiraling for so many different reasons. I have multiple spirals going on. There's a lot of plates in the air, people. But this is me talking to Laura Veers. It's hockey season and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything.

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I was in Seattle before that from 1997 to 2006. Yeah, and then before that? I went to Carleton College in Minnesota and I from 1997 to 2006. Yeah. And then before that? I went to Carleton College in Minnesota and I grew up in Colorado. Minnesota. That's nice. So where'd you play when you were here last night? Gold Diggers.

What is that place? It's a little bar over in Culver. Wait, where is Gold Diggers? I don't know where it was. It was somewhere in LA. And how do you draw? How How many There were 71 paid tickets

71 Yeah That's not bad No it wasn't bad I mean I used to Play more for 300 people in LA 300 So maybe next time I come around

It'll be more We didn't really promote it Because I have a new album coming And we'll be doing the touring For that next So you're just practicing? It was like a one-off, a little on the low,

down low, low-down. Getting back in the swing? Yeah. So we'll see. My biggest crowd is in London. Really? What's the new record called?

I listened to it. Found Light. Like, I listened to it, like, it's weird. I've had, what's that album I had of yours?

I had it forever. It was like, I remember getting it as a CD. It was Year of Meteors. Okay. That was the first time I heard you. Okay. That was 2005.

Right. And I don't know why I had it, but I kept it forever and I liked it. Thank you. And I'm relatively familiar with the sound. I can't say I know all the words. That's okay. Of all the songs. I don't listen to words that well.

Yeah. But I like the tone of your voice. I'm the same. I don't listen to words either. I care a lot about the words when I'm writing them, but when I'm listening, I noticed I don't really listen words that well. Yeah. But I like the tone of your voice. I'm the same. I don't listen to words either. I care a lot about the words when I'm writing them. But when I'm listening, I noticed I don't really listen to the people's words. Right? You're more of like a melody person?

Or just a vibe. Yeah. Yeah. I can't. Like, I've always been that way. Like, I have to really struggle to listen to words. Yeah, I do too. I don't know what.

It's weird that that's true for me because I'm a songwriter. And, like, I care so much about the words that I'm saying. The words are important because that's up front with you. Yeah. The words. Like what bands do you like? I mean, lately I've been listening to a lot of instrumental music. Oh, that loads off on the words then.

I may be headed that way myself as a writer. Really? I just, I'm working on abstract paintings that don't have figures. It's like, for me, that's like instrumental music. They go together because I don't want necessarily to listen to things that are telling me a specific story. And I don't want to look at art that is telling me a specific thing to think. So I'm moving more into abstraction in my music taste and in my visual arts taste and I don't know why that is do you you're a painter as well I just started painting about a year ago in my new

house really so everything's changing everything's changing always the changes keep changing yeah I guess so but it seems like some things really aren't changing I mean I'd like to like to like kind of buy into this sort of like every day, man. It's like you're shedding your skin every five minutes or whatever the fuck it is. But some things in my brain are painfully the same. I have to say that's true for me too. There are certain things that seem to never change, but then other things are always changing. I don't know what the thing is that's unchanging though. Are there things in yourself that you like that stay the same?

Hopefully there are. I don't know. Are there for you? I think I've, well, liking myself is a, you know, was not always a thing. So that changed. Right. For the better. I think so.

A little more self-acceptance. And I think as i became better at doing what i do and more in control of it and as age started to wear me down and humble me and give me some humility yeah i mean there's a there's some peace of mind i think going on a bit that's good but the deeper shit you know the shit that's shitty from when I was a kid or however I'm wired, that stuff is hard. That's entrenched. Yeah, you got that? I'm certain that I do.

I mean, I'm in therapy. I feel like a lot of things I can— Don't you explore yourself? I do. And I feel like there are things about myself that I like that have been there the whole time. Like what? are things about myself that i like that are that have been there the whole time like what um i feel i feel very creative i feel like i have a um an ability to withhold judgment in my creativity for the most part which allows yourself yes oh that's good just allow me to create things like with my

kids like i watch them, children creating. For the most part, I mean, they're getting a little bit self-conscious, but they have this, their filter isn't there. Their critical filter. Right, right, right. So they can create freely and beautifully with this very free, you know, when you look at children's art, it's so free. Right. And no one's saying you stink or they're not saying that to themselves. Yes.

And it's wildly free associative and almost surrealistic and beautiful. And so I feel like there is that element of myself that it stayed there. I wouldn't say I'm wildly surrealistic and beautiful, but there are things

that come through that I, it's because I'm letting them through. And I've taught music and songwriting over the years to people.

And I've noticed that most of the people who struggle have too harsh of a self-critic. So I would say that's something about myself that I like is that my critic isn't too harsh in the creative moment. It wasn't ever? I mean, I have perfectionism in my family line like way back. So that's something that I have to push against. Oh, really? So you have generations of perfectionism?

I mean, I feel that certainly in my brother and my parents, there is that element of... How does that manifest? What is a symptom of that that you could identify? Well, an obvious example would be that when I was doing homework with my friends around the table growing up, my dad, who was a physics professor, would come around and look at our work and say faultless algebra, like faultless. It has to be faultless because he's a physicist. Yeah. And if you get the algebra wrong when you're working up through calculus, nothing works.

Yeah. So it has to be perfect when you're a physicist. Yeah. I get that. But also, I'm an artist. So when you're an artist, you really can't think that way. But no, of course not.

Well, I mean, like there, yeah, math you can't improvise. Exactly. Unless maybe you're an artist, you really can't think that way. But no, of course not. Well, I mean, like there, yeah, math, you can't improvise. Exactly. Unless maybe you're Einstein. But he landed somewhere. Yeah. And it happened to be great. But, you know. But there is deep creativity in math.

Is there? I think so. When you get into any form of thinking, like philosophy, science, or art, when you get into the depths of it it's creative philosophy and art are different than math but think about like uh like um deep physics or you know like that kind of like melds into philosophy i don't even understand how that works do you deep physics yeah no i never got very far but i don't even know what an example of that would be i guess like the origination of the universe oh yeah okay sure you got to be creative to sort of hang that on numbers exactly i understand that your visualization

technique has got to be that i just never associated that those kind of researchers were actually having a vision. I have no idea how you get there. I would posit that almost all of those thinkers are very creative when they're thinking at that level. I guess so. Because they're making something up out of nothing. But they have to prove it. The real challenge is proving it.

Yes. And they can do that. I know. Whereas we can't as artists. So your dad was a physicist? Yes, he is. Still is? is yes like an actual researcher or teacher he's a he was a professor for 30 years yeah and my mom was a

school teacher so they're uh wow elementary school gifted and talented so they're very you know not rule followers exactly but they like you know they're teachers so they want yeah discipline hard work and like following the rules enough to get good grades and all of that stuff. You got brothers and sisters? My brother always had straight A's and I always had straight A's. And I had to follow him.

Yeah. So whenever I went into a room, people were like, ooh, you're Scott Veer's sister. What you got? Yeah, yeah. I don't know. I think I can do this.

But he was always like acing the SAT with no studying, went to Stanford, like just... Really? And then like doing backflips, went to Stanford, like just. Really? And then like doing backflips on his skis, like superstar. What'd that guy end up doing? He is a super dad. He's a really, really amazing uncle.

He's a very, very close person in my life. And he is a orca whale researcher. He saves the whales. He saves the killer whales? Yes. Do they need saving? Yes. They're endangered. Oh, no. The killer whales are? Yep. Or need saving? Yes. They're endangered.

Oh, no. The killer whales are? Yep. Or all whales? All whales. Killer whales. Specifically, I know about the killer whales. What's going on with the killer whales?

Well, my dad and brother worked together to research this. My brother started a nonprofit that researches what's going on with the whales and tries to help them. But basically, environmental pollution, overfishing, and then ship noise and marine testing uh naval testing so they'll like test bombs underwater and it'll like burst the whale's ear drum so you know like just working on all these different levels to save the whales it's so fucking heartbreaking i feel bad for animals more than i do for people sometimes and And they're so innocent. Exactly. They don't deserve that. Yeah, it's like they're just trying to just be in animals.

So what was the original idea for the life of yours? Oh, well, I thought I would be a geologist because I come from a line of scientists on my dad's side. What's his father do? Come from a line of scientists on my dad's side. What's his father do? Well, he was a farmer in Ohio, but he. Your grandfather.

Yes, but he actually became schizophrenic late in life. So that's sort of like. That's strange. It happens in your 20s usually, right? Yeah, usually it does, but it was later in life for him. Really? And so that became like this huge family trauma that my dad and his sisters had to deal with and my dad's mom. Yeah. So that kind of, I think, shaped the way my dad parented us.

Like that kind of mental illness is so uncontrollable and so unknowable that I feel he found his way in life as a scientist because it's knowable. Right. And it's like more linear, even because it's knowable and it's more linear. Even though he's a very creative thinker, I think there is that level of chaos that comes when you're a child and you have a parent with mental illness that would then encourage him to be more like, I'm going to do something that I understand A to B. Yeah, it's like children of alcoholics to protect themselves from the not knowing, get a handle on that. Control freakishness, right? Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't call him that because he's a very loving, caring person, but I think, you know.

I don't know why I use that word, but yeah, I mean, but you want to have control over your life. Yeah, I mean, everyone does, but when you have that kind of chaos as a child, I think you're going to look for ways to have more control. How long did that guy live, the grandfather? He lived to, I believe, his 80s.

I don't remember. Maybe it was his mid-70s. Wow. Are you afraid of that? I was until recently. So here's the thing. Late-stage schizophrenia, is that a thing? Well, I don't know when his onset was, but I think it was like 40, but I'm,

I'm not worried about schizophrenia for myself because I, but I was so like, I didn't try any psychedelic drugs until recently because of that, because I had read. You might not come back. Well, yeah, I had read that it can trigger schizophrenia and I was like, that's not something I want to mess with. Right. And but I've done a lot of therapy over many years and I've gone through a divorce and I've kind of gone through the ringer and single parent pandemic, all this stuff. Yeah.

And I've done a lot of research around the psilocybin therapeutic mushroom movement and like the books by Michael Pollan and the Johns Hopkins therapy treatment stuff and friends, you know, getting legalized in Oregon. And it's a lot of friends have experienced the therapeutic mushroom experience. And since I have known myself more than ever in the last couple of years, I was like, I'm ready to try that. How was it? It was great. Really?

Yeah. And I had a babysitter with me, like an old old old friend who has a lot of experience with mushrooms there my children were taken care of and um we took a dose that like was a moderate therapeutic dose not like a mind melter but the reason why i wanted to try it was really to as a just as as a person experience life in a different way than you could have ever experienced it and at this age 48 it's like i've experienced a lot of stuff but that was a realm that had never stepped into never a druggie never no never never much of it no not much of anything i mean alcohol before a show like let me have a glass of wine but it's not it's not i've never been one of those musicians that like hard party, hard partying.

So anyway, this experience was really amazing and, and, um, I'm glad that I did it. I wouldn't say that I'm going to become like one of those people who joins like the mushroom club of the world and like goes to meetings all around. Cause there's like a deep community, like subculture of people who are into mushrooms. Microdosers are full on. There's like everybody now. Full spectrum? Yeah. Yeah, I haven't done anything in many years, but I've certainly done a few solid mushroom

trips, full on brain melters. Were those like, because the way that we were doing it was with the headphones on and like the eye mask. So it's very much like you're lying down in your own interior world. No, for me, it was like like we got to get outside yeah me and like a few other guys or me and my buddy lance just walk it out i always trip during the day and a nice day was better yeah we did that and so we we split it up like half headphones eye mask which was a very different experience than outside what did you get i've tripped with uh with my eyes

closed yeah i i didn't have a ton of visuals because i don't think i had quite a high enough dosage but i had a lot of um like deep feelings around like the stuff i was hoping to feel which is like the which i had read about but it's one thing to read about it's another thing to feel it and then it's also a hard thing to talk about, but universal love, love across generations, love of my grandfather who had the schizophrenia and who was ostracized from the family, my children, you know, like imagining my passing and then the love for my children staying alive through generations.

And, you know, like even the love of nature was there with the, I was seeing a lot of like passages of color. And I was thinking about the mushroom mycelium web network underneath the ground in the Northwest. I mean, those mushrooms grow everywhere. Nourishing the trees. And it was just a very, and then it actually, one of the most profound things that I felt about that came through that experience was I, you know, I had a very difficult divorce. And from my producer who was my music partner for 20 years and also the father of my kids.

And we had a studio and we have this deep life together that broke apart two and a half years ago and i had basically cut him out of my life a hundred percent except for like texts like what time are you getting the kids right and i realized like you know through that mushroom experience it helped me realize like not all that time was a waste he's not a terrible person we just we're not we're not together anymore and that's gonna that's okay and you need to let him in a little bit so that um the kids don't feel so odd about right there being no communication here yeah so because i come from a background of stable parents like a happy very normal family quote unquote and my brother's the same yeah and so i thought that that was going to be my life and it's not my life.

And so I need to figure out how to be a good parent to these children who have parents who are not together. And that was the biggest takeaway that I had from the mushroom experience, which meant I texted him on his 50th birthday, a really nice birthday text. For me, that was like something that probably would have taken quite a few more years

to get to, honestly, if I hadn't done that. So you think the mushrooms softened you yeah and they accelerated my healing process oh well that's interesting yeah that's a good way to look at it or they just made you like either yeah it's the same as like realizing that you know what am i doing well i say it's like whether it's healing or just sort of like fuck it you know i gotta you know just let this be yeah right huh i wonder what let that go you know it's it's it's weird what you hold on to and resentment or whatever and judgment and like it's very hard to once you start to realize like well shit this is not a lot of time we're here yeah so that was good So you got connected to the

worldwide organic and cosmic web. I did. And you went It was awesome. Yeah. I was so glad that I did that.

Like I said Got the big frequency. You got in the big frequency. It might be once a year or something like that. Sure. Yeah. So what was the plan

before you started music though? Geology degree. I was also studying Chinese. So I was thinking Chinese. Yeah. Mandarin, though? Geology degree. I was also studying Chinese. So I was thinking. Yeah, Mandarin in college. I went to China for six months. Several times I went there and I thought, oh, I'm going to be like either a diplomat to China or I'm going to be a geologist. And I did actually go over to China and did a geology project.

How's your Mandarin now? It's terrible. Terrible. But it was solid? It was good. Yeah? In fact, I was going through an old journal and I had been writing in Chinese and I couldn't read it. Interesting. So, do you ever feel like

picking that up again? Not really. I mean, there's a chance. I would love to go back. I did go back for... Might be the smart thing to do. Might be the future. You might need it. Yeah. I did go for a one-off show in Shanghai like five years ago and I went with a friend who also speaks Chinese a little bit. Yeah.

And we made our way. Like, it started to come back. Well, that's sort of like math, studying Chinese. It is. So that was your physics. Yes. You took up the family tradition, only you did it with language. Yeah.

Tricky. Isn't it tricky? It's very tricky, but it's also very musical. Oh, yeah? It has a tonal language. Yeah. So it's like ma, ma, ma, ma. All those mean different things. Really?

Horse, mother, swear word, and I can't remember the other one. What swear word? I think, I don't know, I can't remember. You're quizzing me on something that I don't remember at all. Well, you just said swear word. I was hoping you weren't protecting me from some horrible word that I might not know. We can look it up. It's okay.

You just know it's a bad word. Yeah, I think it might, yeah. Okay. It might just, yeah, I don't remember if it's a specific swear word or if it just means swear word. So you thought geologist or diplomat. So you're thinking. Academia. Oh, okay.

Yeah. I see. So that was the world. Yeah. And then how long have you been playing guitar for? I started when I was 18. My brother showed me some chords. He was...

On the guitar you have? Yes. Yeah, that's the family guitar. I brought in my 60s Goya. I think it's 60s, but it could be older. My dad got it in a thrift shop in Chicago in the 60s when he was a grad student at IIT. He can play too? He can, yeah. And so he would play that Goya nylon string guitar around the house just for fun. He had a very casual relationship with music.

And then my brother played it and played in bands in high school. In my town, there was... On a nylon string he played in bands? He actually had an electric guitar. But in my town, there was... On a nylon string he played in bands? He actually had an electric guitar. But in my town, there was no real live music scene, Colorado Springs, Colorado. And also, there were certainly no girls in bands. And so I didn't really think I could do that until I got to college. And I was like, wait, I can totally do this.

I can play three chords and be in a punk band. So I started an all-women's punk band. In college. In college called Rerk. And it was like we wore the jumpsuits, like the mechanics outfits, and just like rocked out really hard. The lead singer was really a true rock star. Where is that person now?

She lives off the grid in a trailer in the mountains of rural Washington, like growing flowers. Okay. Totally not punk rock. I mean, punk rock in a way. That's pretty punk rock. But not on the stage. And you're still in touch with her? Yeah, I just saw her last week.

Well, that's nice. Yeah. And she has a nice life with the flowers? Yeah, she has a really nice life with a very nice man. That sounds nice. It's great. It's an alternative lifestyle. It is, yeah.

How off the grid? They have electricity and stuff. No. Oh, no. It's cold. Wow. In that trailer, yeah. No fireplace?

I don't know how they heat it. Wow. That's a great question. She just told me it was cold. Uh-huh. Wow. I guess that's a big choice. A lifestyle choice.

Yeah. So you played electric guitar? Yeah. Ah. So I've migrated back and forth, like electric, loud rock, full band, like solo. There's still full band stuff on most of your records? There is. Yeah, there is.

There's always, there's both. There's like a loud full band thing on most records, and then there's a soft finger picking guitar thing too. So where'd you learn how to finger pick? I can't seem to wrap my brain around it well. It takes a lot of practice. Yeah, it does. I went deep into that in my early 20s in Seattle when I moved there.

Like Travis picking? Yeah. And I had a great teacher who taught me a bunch of country blues stuff, like Manslipscom, Elizabeth Cotton, Mississippi John Heard heard all those things like help me separate because if you separate your right hand from your left you can get like all of these upbeats and counter point and like syncopation and just like like so many instruments happening with two hands you know maybe i should take lessons i think you should actually have a great teacher who i learned from john miller is his name he lives in in Bellingham, Washington, and I think he teaches on Zoom.

Really? Yeah. And he's still around? He's amazing. For the finger picking? Yes. Because, I mean, I can, like, it's there. I've been playing guitar a long time, but I can't free myself.

It's so freeing to learn how to do that. I highly recommend it. I can't seem to get the two hands doing separate things it's so wonderful and liberating when you do that because then you like i said you're playing so many different instruments at once i know but it must be one moment like just after practicing practicing all of a sudden you're like it's happening it happens and it flows and it's effortless after a long time of practice and then that like completely informed the way that i write

guitar music so uh just it just like when when i whenever i learn someone's stuff like in depth like an elliot smith song or something yeah that whatever it is like a cool chord change or some new rhythm or like a lyrical thing or just a way that he sings it'll it'll migrate into a song somehow whether yeah some aspect of the songs that i'm learning in depth will creep into my songwriting and certainly that happened in a very overt way with the finger stick finger style like syncopation just little things that they do yeah it was it was actually i'm so grateful for that time with that teacher because it set the stage for me to be a great guitar player and have a real facility with intricate fingerstyle guitar, which is just so wonderful to play that way.

I love the feeling of it. And then also it gives me the ability to go and do solo shows and not worry about boring the audience because I don't have much going on. Right. It's like there's a lot going on with the guitar playing. Well, that's exciting. How old is this guy? He was in his, I would say, 40s when I was taking lessons in my 20s. So I would guess he's in his 60s now.

Oh, man. I might take you up on that. I need to do something. He's great. I play all the time. Yeah. But it's one of those things where I think I could find something online that could show me, like something showed me basic Travis picking picking but i still can't get them doing different

things yeah it's really fun and like that's the fun thing about learning an instrument and just being a lifelong learner is you can just keep getting better and then that's going to change do you write also song right it'll change the way you write if you're writing still. Do you write songs? Not really. I fuck around and do a lot of different rhythms. Yeah. At the end of each podcast, I kind of play with that stuff. And I've been playing and singing in public lately with a couple of guys. But I wrote one song.

I wrote a song after Lynn died, but then I didn't do another one. There's too much vulnerability to it for me. It's very vulnerable. And everything I do, like comedy or whatever, I'm very kind of, everything's pretty close to, you know, it's pretty honest. So I don't know how much of that I can do. It seems like a lot of songwriters can hide somehow

by either writing from a point of view that is not theirs, creating characters, or just doing poetry that is cryptic enough to not implicate them emotionally. Yeah. I wanted to really not do that on my new album. I think you're pretty honest. I don't know anymore, after talking to enough songwriters, where I think that I hear them representing themselves

and they're like, no, that's not me. And it's annoying. But this one seems like it's kind of from you. Oh, it certainly is more than any of the other ones. Because I would say because I had more agency in terms of choosing which songs to record and then also more agency and ownership over how we were going to record them live with my friend shazada smiley from new york who came out to portland and to produce yeah well we co-produced it and that was the first time i ever like so you're out from the reins under the thumb of uh your ex-husband yeah i mean not that he had me under his thumb but you know it's just the way that our dynamic under the fingers on fingers on the board, maybe. He just always made those decisions.

And I didn't really care. And then at this stage, I was like, actually, I want to care. I want to care about, like, how are we going to play this? Is it going to be live or to a click? And then are we going to, who's going to be on it? Like, what is the message that I'm trying to send, like, sonically? Is it very sparse? Or, you know, each song asks for a different treatment.

And this was the first time I was really asking myself, what do I want this music to sound like? Well, what were you asking before when it started, when you first started recording? Because it seemed like there was a period there where you got somewhere in the middle. A few of those records were pretty big, right? I mean, none such put them out.

But then, like, after they dropped me, my next album outsold theirs. So, I mean, July Flame, I think, was the top seller, which was 2010. But none of my records have been that successful, which is partly why I think I'm still going. Sometimes I feel like success, too much success too quickly can mess with people's heads. Sure. So avoid it. success too much success too quickly can mess with people's heads sure so avoid it i've had like a very mild amount for so long that i felt like i could maintain my sanity and like not not get swept away by any lucky you're not you didn't fly down here on a private jet that would

be such a different person i would yeah but when did you so how old were you when you did the first record? Well, I did one with a friend just quickly in his studio on Orcas Island in 1999. So I was 20, I was born in 73, so 23. Yeah. And those were all original songs? Yes, and really bad, terrible music. Can you listen to it? No. I'll never reprint that. I made a thousand copies

and that's it. Yeah. Because when I was like doing some research, you can't find it. So good job. Yeah. It sucks. It's gone. It's erased from the memory, the collective memory. And then what happens? Then I met Tucker, who was my ex and he's a wonderful record producer. And we had a lot of fun in the early years, and then our relationship fell apart. Well, where'd that guy come from? So he was in Seattle. Okay. And I mean, he's made records for, like, we kind of became bigger shots together over the years.

Like, neither one of us is a very big shot. But he does do records with, like, Decembrist, My Morning Jacket, Bill Frizzell, people in the indie rock world, the folk world, and the jazz world. He's doing those. What's his name? Tucker Martine. Oh. So now, I know that you were friends with Lynn. When did you meet Lynn?

Lynn was in that Seattle scene. Right. In 2002 or 2003, I met her because I provided soundtrack music for her movie. For one of her movies. Which movie was it? We Go Way Back. Yeah. Yeah. And she's a lovely person. That's like the first movie, right? Yeah. And she's a wonderful she was such a wonderful person and we had been in touch

right before her death. Yeah. Bonding around divorce and like her excitement about being with you and me being like I was on a dating rampage at that stage. How'd that pan out? I learned a lot about online dating because I had been with one guy and then Tucker for that whole two guys monogamous for 24 years. 24 years. So then I was like.

Two guys. Yeah. I was like, oh, online dating. Okay. What's that? I'm like, okay. I know all about it. I could write a book.

Oh, yeah? Yeah. Why don't you write some songs? I did. They're on this new album. Do you mention it by name? I say, I met a Brazilian who taught me to dance. Oh, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. A Turkish man who- I saw that. I was trying to figure that out. This and that. Whether those are real or not. That's online dating. Those are real.

And like another one one there's this song called naked him about like just this basically casual sex but oh and then there's another casual sex reference so yes that definitely all got into the album yeah but it was part of you know you probably have met other people who do this like they get divorced at the end of your marriage you're probably not having a lot of sex because you're like not getting along yeah so then when you get divorced you're like oh i can have sex again what's out there you know like oh wow with unlaid dating it's so easy it's so easy and then after a while anyone can get laid i know i was like after i was like this is this is just too easy or slash empty and so i stopped and then the pandemic made it obviously more complex. It's sad when you hit the empty world with the sex.

I did. Especially if it happens in the middle. Yeah. Yeah. So that, that like, but, but I did feel that that kind of bender I went on was really important for me. And, and I've talked with many people who have done the same thing where they're just like, yeah, I'm just out in the world again. I'm alive, you know? Yeah, I'm fucking. Yeah. same thing where they're just like yeah i'm just out in the world again i'm alive you know yeah yeah yeah oh so that's when you're talking because i remember it was when was talking to you you know and uh i know that you guys were you guys went back and that you know i i remembered that she mentioned that you were going through it and then you know you're excited yeah. I'm not excited about it anymore. We're off.

Tired you out. Yeah. What else is there? Mushrooms? That's cool. Yeah, you're checking all the boxes. I went surfing today. You did?

That's checking a box. You never done it? I had done it twice in my life, and I got up on the board like nine times today. It was so fun. It was very addictive. I could totally see getting addicted to surfing. Yeah, because when you look at it

from the outside, you're like, what are they doing? Have you not done it? No, but it's like those waves aren't even that big but then when you see them

get up on it, you're like, oh, that's it. You've got to try it. Okay. Fingerstyle guitar and surfing is in your future. That's my big goal?

Yeah. All right. Those seem reasonable. Yeah. I think I could do both of those. think they're really really within your grasp boards you use it was a rental place on venice beach oh that's nice very easy you can do it so tell me about this songwriting process so like obviously you just said that in the the this new record is more personal but like how who are you modeling yourself after? How does that work?

Because I don't know what the hell, like I wrote that song, but I don't know what good songwriting is. I mean, I guess I do, but I mean, what is the trick to it? How do you start? Do you start with a melody? Do you start with the chords,

or do you start with words? Usually, my trick is just to start with something i already have so what does that mean in relation to what i just asked like i always have something lying around that i haven't used yet so like a like a melody or words yes either phrase yeah a Exactly. A line, an idea from like a guitar part from someone else's song that I'm like, I've got to try that rhythm. Yeah. Or a new tuning. Okay. New tuning?

What kind of tuning do you use? I really don't tune a whole lot, but like my mainstay alternate tuning is D, A, D, F sharp, B, E. It's only changing the E to a D, drop D, and then the G goes down to an F sharp. That's actually a very beautiful voicing that I've gotten a lot of cool songs out of. Do you have to change the fingers? Your fingering all changes when you change the tuning. But it's about your ear. I love to just get new voicings, and so that one's helpful.

And then for people who are trying to try alternate tunings that aren't like really complex i would suggest these are ones that i put on my new record the b to c is really nice adds this new very new feeling just changing that half step b up to c and then also from standard bringing the g to the a also is a beautiful way to get new voicings. And basically, that's because I'm a lazy guitar player. I could play those chord voicings, but I don't want to. I want to just have this left hand be really easy motions, and I don't want to have to do any fancy footwork with my left hand. Right.

So these alternate tunings allow a very facile like easy playing with new voicings. Yeah. So anyway, I would just like have one small thing that I'm like, I need to try to write something with that tuning today because I don't know, just I want to try that tuning. So then I'll start messing around and then something will come out. And like the next, I i always record i usually write a full song in a sitting yeah an hour or less and then i will come back the next day and listen if i feel something usually i'm not into it but i'll be like that guitar part is awesome you have to keep that and just find some new words for it vice versa those lyrics are great but this music

sucks it's totally boring let's find some better music for these words Vice versa. Those lyrics are great, but this music sucks. It's totally boring. Let's find some better music for these words. And that's how I always start with something that I already have. And I'm never just, hardly ever am I,

like right now, if I sat down to write, I would be starting from a blank white page because I'm not in a writing phase. But once I'm in a writing phase, it's like I'm on this wheel

that's turning. And each day I go back and I'm like, oh, well, it's not overwhelming and scary because there's no blank page. There's something to start with. And so you find that it works and once you're in that groove, you're going to write out an album's worth of stuff? I usually write 100 to 200 songs per album cycle.

What? Yeah. I know. And for this one, I was like like this is so fucking stupid i need to stop so i only wrote about 80 but the thing is it's not it's not you always no wonder you always have shit hanging laying around i have an excessive amount of stuff that's never been used but the thing is i toss it for a reason like it's really not good and so but the thing is with 80 songs

it's probably more like 30 because each one is like I will write sometimes 14 it sounds very neurotic and I guess it is

but like 14 versions of one song till I get to the one that actually makes the album sometimes I write one and I'm done I'm like that's great I don't need to fuck with that

and then most of the time I'm like well I don't know I don't know I don't know I don't know right right right right right and then by the end I have this honestly overwhelming amount of material so I tried to not do that this time right but I still got up to 80. So in terms of the evolution of the songwriting so when you're writing to begin with the first record that you threw in the garbage that's that yeah and then the second record you record, the first record you didn't do with the husband. Yep. Right. With Tucker, he recorded the one from 2001, the second one, which I love.

And that's when you met him? Yes. And that's when it started. Then our romance started years later. Years later? But we had a friendship for many years, like a working relationship. Okay. So it was just a kind of a

couple musicians working together he respected your shit you like what he did yeah records yep so when it becomes which album does it become a romance on um salt breakers you know that's the woman who i have been seeing a bit um is a big fan of that record oh that's cool like i mentioned i was gonna interview she's like oh my god i love that album salt breakers i was into is a big fan of that record. Oh, that's cool. Like I mentioned, I was going to interview you. She's like, oh my God, I love that album, Cell Breakers. I listened to that all the time. Oh, that's nice.

Yeah. And congratulations on dating someone. Yeah. It's okay. It's possible. It's possible to keep going. Life keeps going, right? Yeah, sure it does.

I mean, it definitely does. You know, that whole, that thing, her dying was devastating. And you don't know, I don't know that anybody knew how to deal with it. I mean, somebody like that dying, you don't have answers to these questions why that happens. Someone so alive and engaged and spreading goodwill and love around, you know, just gets leveled in a week. It's brutal. Tragedy happens. But yeah, I mean, in terms of trauma, in similar ways to a divorce that,

you know, you can't really, you know, pull yourself together, really. You can't force yourself out of that sense of trauma. Yeah. For however long it's going to take. Yep. It takes how long it takes and it's not linear. No, nothing's linear. It's just, it's a frequency you live with. Yeah. For the rest of it.

Yeah. But I do think that like one of the blessings of being an artist is we can process our trauma through creativity. And some people just don't have that. They don't have that outlet. And for me, I think one of the reasons I made my new album is because, well, I needed to prove to myself I could do this independently

because I'd become very psychologically dependent on him. But also, I wanted to share this story and really talk about it, this experience of divorce. And it's extra painful with kids, I think. Because you've got that, you know, anyway, it's obviously obvious why that's painful. But I was like, I want to try to get into the real feelings here that are complex. It's not just like everything sucks or everything's amazing. It's like very, very nuanced stuff that you feel going through something like that. And I wanted to write about it.

So, A, to make myself feel better probably in the moment of writing it, because I definitely feel like writing is therapy in a way. Sometimes it's painful. And B, to share it, because someone out there is going to relate and i think that it's important for us to be vulnerable as artists and put our work out there so that we can share and feel connected to others and and you know provide them with with a voice for their experience and then the person that's writing their novel is giving me validation. And I feel seen by their book. And then that painter makes a beautiful painting that moves me. And then I make a song or a painting.

It's like all going around influencing each other and making life more meaningful and connected. That kind of rhizome mushroom spreading structure again. Absolutely. Yeah, I mean, I feel that. I just feel that because nothing that I do is that coded, that when I talk about feelings or experience grief or try to create comedy out of that experience, that adds a certain element of relief for other people.

And for you, too? Do you get relief? Sure. Sure. But it becomes tricky, though, especially when you're just talking. To respect, you have to sort of balance you know your feelings with respecting the situation do you know like the thing i learned about you know grief is that i was getting a lot of attention because we were publicly a couple for i don't know it wasn't that

long maybe a year or so yeah and so you know there was a lot of attention coming at me because of her passing. And I just reacted or, you know, I engaged with certain interviews or whatever when I could. And then like a relative of hers, maybe a cousin on someone's side, maybe not even like a blood cousin, was like, you know, you should tone that down because, you know, there's a lot of family that is not being spoken for here. And, you know, she's got this family and, you know, we're trying to process this too. And I didn't even think about it. It wasn't even a matter of me processing it. I just wanted to honor her her uh life yeah

but what were they suggesting you tone down well just you know don't do so much press uh-huh and i think it was correct ultimately i was stubborn at first i'm like well my feelings are right but you know the truth is is like whatever i was grieving you know was really more a possibility and there were people like yourself that, you know, I think I wrote that to you in the email that, you know, had these long relationships, husbands, children, parents, cousins, friends, years and years and years, you know, lifetimes, you know, who deserve privacy and respect, you know, and I didn't even know any of them really. So I had to put that into perspective. And then to really realize that I was, you know, I'm grieving a loss that was pretty spectacularly big and an important person in my life.

But we didn't, it didn't, our future didn't happen. So that was, you know, that was what is the most difficult thing for me is that you're poised to, you know, sort of like, okay, I've got, we're going to do this now. And then that's, you know, gone.

So it's different. Yeah. Grieving possibilities and grieving, uh, loss of a longterm relationship. I think it's different. It's, it's all grief,

but it's like, you know, it's all kind of leveling. So wrestling with that shit and do you wrestle with that in your comedy yeah a bit

yeah I wrestle with grief how do you deal with that because that's really the language what you're talking about is that people feeling less alone

seems to be the important thing yes like I get a lot of mail about that emails about that for one reason or another it's not always grief sometimes it's eating disorders sometimes whatever i talk about yeah psychological problems whatever um but that people like feel seen and that's important that they don't get lost yep in themselves or do something drastic. But then like, you know, but I feel that. But it's also heavy, you know, and it's hard to, you know,

there's some part of me that wants to have a message for everybody. But these are very specific messages for people that are willing to let them in. And I don't know what that message for everybody business is. I think that's ego as an artist. I mean, you want a bigger reach. Do you? I mean, here I am talking on your podcast. Yeah.

I asked to come on it. I know. So. Yeah. Okay. But part of me is like, you know, I have friends who have been very famous and had all kinds of problems that came with that. So I don't think fame and notoriety are necessarily a ticket to a happy life. No.

Maybe a ticket to a reasonable living. Yeah. You want to find the reasonable living level. That part helps if you want to be an artist. Because being strapped for money and trying to be an artist is difficult. Yeah. How have you dealt with it? Well, I've had a pretty steady income for a long time

from my passive income from songwriting. Yeah. So that's really... From other people doing your songs? No, just my stuff. Just being out there. And I have ownership of all my own music. Oh, really?

So that happens? Yeah. Just from Airplay? Or how does it work? Yeah, Airplay and radio and Spotify and Apple Music and YouTube. I mean, YouTube is terrible, but syncs and record sales, it all adds up because now this is my 13th album. Yeah.

So it's just building on itself. Right. So which songs out there do you find generate the most income? I mean, they shift. Do you have hits? They shift around. I mean, July Flame is a song that has probably the most income? I mean, they shift. Do you have hits? They shift around. I mean, July Flame is a song that has probably the most income over time,

but they just shift around. Like, you can look on your BMG chart and see, like, which one is, and I don't know, I don't track that well because my stuff gets played all around the world. I don't know, like, why a certain song is getting more money that time,

that, like, payment cycle than another one, but they all sort of like work like you know they're like little workers out there for me and that's something i feel so grateful for because i'm a single mom with a pretty heavy parenting time and i want to be able to pick them up from school i want to be like a very engaged parent and if i were working like all the time also the other thing that's nice about being a parent and an artist is like children I notice like when I don't have them sometimes like when my ex has them I'll become like obsessed with like a painting you know just like non-stop thinking

about this one painting and like that you're painting yes because I've started doing like bigger abstract canvases and yeah I will get obsessive about art or creation or like whether i'm like sometimes in the last few years i've been starting to conceptualize videos for music videos for my own videos and i'll just get so obsessive yeah that if i didn't have the kids i feel like i might just become one of those like people that runs into the ocean with like weights on my feet and just drowns myself because um because you just blew your brain over a painting yes yeah you just got yes got locked into a spiral you got to get the kid from school at three and go to soccer practice that's good i'm glad that the kids are stifling your more suicidal impulses thank you yes am too. But it's not quite suicidal because it's just frustration with

not being able to unlock a loop of obsession. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I get that sometimes, but like as soon as I manifested, it seems to dissipate. You know, if I get obsessed, like recently it was like getting the same hat that Keith Richards was wearing on the last tour. And once I got it, I was like, i was like all right moving on yeah that's good but i get obsessed with bits i get obsessed with getting a joke right i get obsessed with you know this this balance of of what i do creatively like well that i it's i think it's interesting that that where we started this was that the romance began at salt breakers so can you see in the work you know outside of the the partnership you had

you know as in production and and musically can you see lyrically uh an evolution through love and into whatever happened this last record yes i mean i can see love songs for him and then sad songs about my ex and ditching my other ex, Pete. And then like, also as time went on, my reaching for Tucker and this way that I felt he was always like receding into the shadows. And you can hear that on a lot of the songs. Oh, that you were losing him? Yeah. Emotionally. And that was true.

Yep. But you didn't know it or you did. The songs were very clear, but it's odd to me that I couldn't see it, but it's so strange to even say this, like how could the songs know and I didn't know, but I think- That's art.

I was so dedicated to keeping our family together and just keeping all the balls in the air. And when you have young children, it's so, your head's just down in the weeds. Sure. For me, it was just like a feat to even get an album done. But it seems like then, I'm not trying to pressure you, but it seems like this almost happened simultaneously. But it seems like this almost happened simultaneously, that the tension happened simultaneously within a couple of years of the kids, right? Mm-hmm.

So do you feel like the kids were, although it turned out well, an attempt to hold it together? I was one of those women who was biologically insane about having kids. When I turned 31 or 2, I was was like i have to have children right now and like if you don't have kids with me we're done i'm gonna go find and so he's like okay okay let's do it and so we did but you know i wouldn't want them to feel that they broke us up because they certainly didn't but definitely children bring stress to the situation and so i was doing my best to keep it all like elastic girl my sister she's like you were elastic girl you know like the long arms trying to hold it all together but it just wasn't going to hold right and it was only until very recently that well like we broke up a year and a half two and a half years ago so But like a year before that, I was like, this is really not working.

And that was like, were you in the middle of like the lookout? Yes. There's some songs on there that are hinting at this crumbling. And then the next one really gets at it. My Echo? Yeah. Yeah. So now I'm just so curious.

And he produced that one. He did. And we were in counseling and like we were trying to get his new studio off the ground it was like very very difficult financially and all this stress and then the kids and i hadn't like that album was just just bizarre to me the whole thing yeah at this stage my path is very unclear to me like right now yeah i just i was like i have to make another first of all i was like i don't think i At this stage, my path is very unclear to me. Right now? Yeah. I was like, I have to make another.

First of all, I was like, I don't think I want to do music anymore because that's just so painful for me, the whole thing. I don't even want to be a musician anymore after we broke up. Yeah. And then after a while, after a year, I was like, no, that's stupid. You always wanted to be a writer and a songwriter and you always were. So why don't you do one more at least? Yeah. Because you have to. Your future self will hate you if you don't right and so and the idea of sharing with

like specifically single moms appealed to me and so i did but it took a long time and a lot of like back and forth and try out recording over here and then get this guy but he can't come due to covid and then get the other guy and anyway we made the record i'm really proud of, but he can't come due to COVID, and then get the other guy. And anyway, we made the record. I'm really proud of it, but I don't know if I'll make another record. I mean, does an artist ever know if they're going to make another record? I called my tour right now. It's called This May Be The Last Time.

There you go. That's the name of my tour. Is that like genuinely from your heart? Yeah, every time. Yeah. Because I got to pull like an hour and a half out of the air. Yeah. Like you do. Yeah. And then like tour it. Yeah. Because I got to pull like an hour and a half out of the air. Yeah. Like you do.

Yeah. And then like tour it. Yeah. You know, and that comes from like workshopping two, three hours of shit. And hopefully, like I need incentive in the form of either a tour or a special or, you know, I mean, during COVID, you know, even before Lynn died, you know, I was sort of like, you know, like maybe I didn't miss comedy. And I was sort of like, maybe I'm better. Maybe I'm all better. That's why it was sad that it became a clinical thing.

Like, I think I'm fixed. I don't need to go drag people through my problems. Yeah. Yeah. But as soon as other people started doing it again, I was like, fuck, game on. Yeah. And then you had to pull it out of the air again the next yeah that's the biggest well that's the biggest fear is like what have i got in me you know because i had to start clean when we were able to start working again but i guess what got

me through it in the same way like you do is like i've got a couple of bits that weren't on my last special that didn't get a lot of play. So there's like a couple of solid pieces that I can at least know I have. And then I just, what I do is I start booking out small theaters like here, like a black box theater. And I'll do a residency for a month

and just improvise. Because I don't write things down like that. And record that. Someone's filming it or recording it. Kind of. Or I just go through it. It's more of an oral tradition through repetition. See what sticks.

Yeah. And sometimes I lose things, but sometimes I don't. Now I'm kind of operating at a fairly good hour and a half, maybe hour and 15 without the PTSD COVID stuff, which is eventually I think we'll have a shelf life. I don't know. It depends what happens. Yeah. And some things are continuing to expand a bit,

but you know, that's it. And I've also been going out on my own without an opener. That's sort of the next phase is sort of like, they're here to see me and, you know,

I don't need a buffer if I have the material. So just, you know know pull it together and do it yeah but you aren't sure if you'll do it again no i'm never sure uh i'm not i'm never sure i'm not sure what i'm supposed to be doing like i i feel like i'm supposed to be stopping and what is telling you that it's age and like but is that just ageism or something like no it's like i don't really know how to enjoy myself so i'd like to uh figure that out and i don't know if i need to stop working to do that because but i'm so engaged like i'm talking to you i did another interview today

i do two of these a week i'm performing comedy every night really uh if i'm around you know enjoy that though it's what I do. But do you enjoy it? Yeah, sometimes. I mean, I enjoy it if I have a purpose. And right now, the purpose seems to be like,

why do you guys think you deserve comedy? Look at what we're going through. Yeah. What kind of funny do you want? Yeah. But that's the perfect kind of funny for me. Like the absurdist? No. Nihilistic? Yeah. Yeah. What kind of funny do you want? Yeah. But that's the perfect kind of funny for me. Like the absurdist. No. Like, yeah. Yeah. I don't know if it's absurdist, but it's about the fact that we're all desperately, you know, denying the fact that we're rudderless and in trouble as a species.

in trouble as a species. So without being self-righteous, how do you say like, well, this is who we are. We ought to admit it and just say, well, we're surrendering to not taking part in our survival collectively. And there's something absurd about that that but it's not absurdism but it's good for you to be checking in with what makes you happy at the stage in your life

that's right and i'm doing the same thing and i don't know whether going on tour and making records is that what do you think it is it might be going on tour and making records i'm going to be doing a healthy assessment of that during my next tour. How did last night go? It was great. I actually really enjoyed myself. And part of the enjoyment was I got to play with an old friend, Tim Young, who plays with the James Corden House Band with Reggie Watts. And he's been a friend, musical partner for 20 years also.

And we just play. He's improvising and I'm playing my stuff. And we're just so like brother and sister. And I loved that feeling. So I was like, yes, there's so much about the communal aspect of playing that I love. Like when I'm working on paintings, I do have a painting night every Wednesday where painter friends come over and we paint in my basement. And that's communal in a way because we're chatting and talking about techniques and stuff and listening to music. in a way because we're chatting and talking about techniques and stuff and listening to music but music can be so collaborative and bonding and beautiful when shared with other musicians so

that is something i think i'll probably keep doing but i don't know i guess time will tell well yeah i mean i've been experiencing like a lot of discovery on stage which is the only thing that makes it worthwhile for me i is that you know when you know no show is the same and i don't know like if I have a certain freedom of mind, we can really do something. And I lately have been sort of, in my mind, and sometimes out loud, just untethering it from comedic expectations.

Yeah, because I tend to think of comedy as sort of this limited thing in terms of people's expectations from it. Though there are comics that break those, and I think I do on a good night, but I do hold myself to the job. I do think there's a job to it, and you don't want to go and just sort of have people go like, what was that? Just abstract art or something.

Exactly. I'm not that. I'm not really an abstract artist. Yeah. I don't think. Yeah. I can be. Yeah.

In moments. But, so, this is the divorce record and the single mom record. This is what happens after a divorce record. This is the flowering.

Yes. This is the flowering and the kind of like self-realization that comes after. So post-mushrooms, post-the-record. I was debating about talking about the mushrooms. No, but I mean like do you find, are you clear? Are you carrying baggage and resentment?

Oh, yeah. Of course I am. What do you expect? It's only been two and a half years. Of course I am. What do you expect? It's only been two and a half years. I don't know. You're talking a big mushroom game. I mean, that was five hours of peace and love. Okay.

But yes, that informed the way that I'm thinking about things. And I am trying to keep an open heart. But I was burned by my ex. Burned in how? Yeah, I can't tell you okay all right easy i'm not pressing you but it was i just feel like it's going to take me some time to trust and you know engage with a partner at that level and that's okay because i you know although sometimes i feel a little bummed out or lonely or like, I'm the only single person at this party, now the parties are happening again.

I'm like, yeah, it's okay. Like there's so much to discover about myself now at this stage. And when you're a mom and a wife, a lot of times you just give yourself over to the other needs of everyone around you. And my aim here is to figure out what you were saying, like what makes me happy. Yeah, I don't know.

Independent of a partnership, for example. Right. What is my soul asking for this next chapter? Yeah. I don't know if it's being a painter or a musician or a poet or working at the Starbucks or what. Well, I mean, I think Starbucks is a last resort. I mean, it could be great.

I don't know. Maybe. You might see me there. Okay. On your comedy stop. You have good benefits. I mean, there's a plus. I think you might get some health coverage out of Starbucks. Yeah. But no, I mean, there's a plus. I think you might get some health coverage out of stuff like that.

Yeah. But no, I mean, I agree. I don't know, like, where my capacity for trust or intimacy comes after, you know, someone dies. Yeah, because that's like, life can just whap you down, like, so fast. And you don't know what's coming. That's right. And I've been divorced twice. And I know what it's like to be burned by an ex.

But I've also, I had a part in it. But I definitely, you know, it doesn't take much scratching below the surface to find my anger about how divorces go. Yeah. You know. But in terms of intimacy, I don't know how to approach that. I was not that good at it before Lynn. But I felt like that during Lynn, because of her persistence, she was very persistent. Lynn was. In terms of breaking down your barriers or guards or something?

In terms of everything. I mean, if she had focused on something, it was going to happen. Yeah. Determined woman. That's right. it was going to happen. Determined woman. That's right.

So I imagine that once I surrender to that, to her, which I did, that determination would eventually hammer me into some, you know, being more able

to accept her or have love in my life. That's beautiful. I guess. And that's something you can take forward., that's beautiful. I guess. And that's something you can take forward. I don't know. You can. Okay.

And you owe me $80 for therapy today. You owe me $80? I think we're breaking even. Okay, let's call it even. It's good talking to you. Yeah, thanks for having me. And I hope that people like the new record. So.

I hope they hate it. No, but like, what's the title again? Because I think there's some. Found Light. Found Light. And it's on what label? My own label, Raven Marching Band. How many have you done on your own label?

Three? I think. Fourth one. There's the fourth one. I think it's like, we had three on Nonesuch for like so I think it's the ninth on your own label mm-hmm

that's the way to do it I love it and I have a great label manager and a great team working with me in Portland they're in Richmond Virginia yeah my management team

is my record label management and yeah and then I have a UK label Bella Union and you say that the UK is where that's your biggest? Yes.

They love you there? I mean, it's all relative. I play to 800 people in London. That's great. Which is like twice what I play for. How does that work? I don't know.

Why is that? I feel like different cultures appreciate different styles slash I got a leg up early there in terms of being on a cool label. Yeah. I don't understand. Like I have friends that are big in Japan.

I mean, it sounds like such a cliche, but I'm big in Japan, but they are. Or big in Australia, but not here. Or, you know, one person I know is big in Sweden, but nowhere else. So it's like a strange quirk. And how do you figure that shit out? Just algorithms where your stuff sells?

I mean, yeah. And I think it's just been, that's where things have, I've had the booking agent early on, the label support and the press. And when you get all that, then you've got the crowd and then you just keep going back on the same circuit over and over.

Now, like when you did that record with Nico Case and... Katie Lang. Yeah. That was... Case Lang Beers in 2016. That's not that Katie Lang. Yeah. That was... Case Lang Beers in 2016. That's not that long ago. No.

Like, Nico, like, people always want me to interview her, but I don't know her stuff that well, and I always feel like I'm like, I gotta get into her, I gotta listen to her stuff. I love her. Yeah. Her lyrics. She's such an amazing lyricist, and it was a huge part of what I learned in that project is how to change and not change my writing, but just how different people can write lyrics. And it was fun because like I had this one song that I brought to them was all done with my lyrics and my music. But I was like, just what do you think about this?

They're like, I don't know. It's cool music. But Nico's like, let me just change the words. I was like, that sounds great. She completely changed all the words except for one line yeah and it's beautiful and it's absolutely different than what i would ever have written and i love that about that project and like katie i learned so much about bravado and stage presence like she's such a badass on the stage she's so fearless yeah. So pro and such power and facility with our vocals. Yeah. It's just amazing to behold. I actually had imposter syndrome with those two on stage

because I'm not like a naturally gifted stage performer. I can do it. I can do the job like you were saying, but it's not natural. I get very nervous and like weird and they're so smooth. Yeah. So that was really cool and also sometimes difficult to be feeling like I was lesser or something. Yeah. Also less famous than them, so. I'm always feeling,

yeah, you'll find that like, or I find that no matter how well I'm doing, I'm always going to make room to feel lesser. Mm-hmm. Well, that's something to work on. But I think you should interview Nico or Katie or both because they're both really interesting people and their music's really cool.

Well, Nico seems more available. They're more accessible to me, though I don't know if she's mad at me or not because it was sort of like this. I've had opportunities and I just feel like, but I don't know her music well enough and I haven't really put the time in, even though I had the records.

But like I said, I'm barely a lyrics guy. Yeah. So I mean, I just don't know her music well enough and I haven't really put the time in, even though I had the records. But like I said, I'm barely a lyrics guy. So I mean, I just don't want to... It's usually, if I don't want to interview somebody, it's just because I don't want to do a disservice. Like I know she's great. She's great. And she's really funny. So that would be a fun interview, I think.

Well, as long as she doesn't resent me already, we'll see. I'm sure it will work out. Someday. Again, nice talking to you thanks mark that was me and laura veers i miss win shelton everyone misses win shelton we love you lynn laura's new album found light comes out next friday july 8th you can pre-order it now wherever you buy your music. I'll have it more together.

I'll have it more together Monday. Oh, my God. I'm going to cry. No music today. I'm on the road. I'm in Florida. Go to WTFpod.com slash tour for tour dates. I'm in Florida. I'm in Canada.

I'm in Toronto. I'm losing my mind. I'm okay. Everybody's okay. You good? Okay. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category.

And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. It's a night for the whole family.

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