WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1345 - Jason Kander

Episode Date: July 4, 2022

Jason Kander was a rising star in national politics. In fact, he was staging a run for the Presidency and got the thumbs up from none other than Barack Obama himself. Then the roof caved in. Jason tells Marc why he needed to put everything on hold in order to treat his PTSD, something he’d been suffering since serving in Afghanistan eleven years earlier, but also something he wouldn’t allow himself to confront for more than a decade. Jason’s new book is Invisible Storm: A Soldier’s Memoir of Politics and PTSD. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Alright, let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening what the fuckocrats what the fuck publicans whatever what are you doing are you cooking are you crying are you crying and cooking is there anything to celebrate? Is today the day we celebrate half of this country's independence from reality and the other half's independence from democracy because of that? What are we doing? Is there anything to celebrate? All I know is today some idiot could set the entire state of California on fire by accident. What's happening? I don't mean to be negative, but at the very least, it seems that people should get together and at least be with other people. Being with other people is important. I think being alone at the keyboard is half, if not 80% of the fucking problem with people's brains right now get out in it how many people out there are hobbled by what they take into their head in terms of how they interact with other people today's a day to sort of let it down if you have plans with other people be nice go if you didn't think you were going to go to the party go to the party find the person that you can talk to that you

can open your heart a little with come Come on. Get some love, folks. If you can. Have a few laughs. Eat some bad food. And then get to the keyboard later. Whatever. But don't placate your loneliness by sacrificing the way you think because you're just tumbling down too many rabbit holes.

Fourth of July. i'm cooking i'm recording this yesterday but i'm prepped i didn't know i was going to cook today i'm going to talk to jason kander today jason kander is actually the former secretary of state of missouri and he ran for the u.s senate in 2016 he's an army veteran and was an intelligence officer in afghanistan and in 2017 barack obama called him the future of the democratic party so why is he on this show now first of all i talked to him before jason sudeikis put me in touch with the guy in 2017 because candor was starting up a podcast and he wanted to get some feedback turns out he was was starting up a podcast and he wanted to get some feedback turns out he was also starting up a campaign for president but i didn't know that at

the time and then everything went south for the guy for jason the ptsd he'd been suffering from for 11 years uh was overtaking him he was consumed by depression and suicidal thoughts so he had to put everything on hold in order to get the help he needed. Now he's got a book coming out, Invisible Storm, a soldier's memoir of politics and PTSD. And I talked to a lot of people about the impact of trauma in their lives and how it affects them moving forward, but never from the perspective of a military veteran.

He also has a lot of insight about the reality of a life dedicated to public service. So I had him on. And today's the day. As the country crumbles, let's talk to a guy that has dedicated his life, and a lot of it, to civic duty, service in general. I thought it would be appropriate. I'm about to cook a pie this was yesterday and i've just i've rubbed down a large brisket it was so weird because i'm not i'm going

to a party i was just planning on bringing a pie a chess pie i have a great recipe for southern chess pie that was the plan bring a pie and then i was at whole foods and they had this perfectly trimmed whole brisket and i was like oh my god that thing's beautiful i'm gonna buy it and freeze it and i'll use it when i you know when i have a party or something i just i'd never seen a such a perfectly trimmed whole brisket at whole foods or anywhere really and i fucking bought it and then i texted the wife of the dude whose house i'm going to. And I said, I have a brisket.

You want me to bring it? She's like, yeah, I'm going to do my pulled pork, but bring a brisket. We'll have both. I'm like, fuck yeah, we will. So then I got to get up. If you're listening to this, I've probably been up since five smoking a brisket, making big decisions, getting all into the food prep, man. Getting all into the food prep. getting all into the food prep not for celebration maybe for like who knows when the fires will come who knows how long this this

government looks like the one we grew up with or the one that we aspire it to be but i do know i'm going to be spending time with people I enjoy, people I love. And all I can say to you is that, you know, despite how horrible everything is, you know, if you have an opportunity to spend time with people you like today and you're not doing it because you're sad, go do it. Don't fucking don't cry and cook for yourself. Go cry with people and have someone else cook for you so listen jason candor as i mentioned earlier i i kind of told you about him but his book invisible storm a soldier's memoir of politics and ptsd is available tomorrow july 5th

wherever you get your books all right this is me talking to Jason Kander. Be honest. When was the last time you thought about your current business insurance policy? If your existing business insurance policy is renewing on autopilot each year without checking out Zensurance, you're probably spending more than you need. That's why you need to switch to low-cost coverage from Zensurance before your policy renews this year. Zensurance does all the heavy lifting to find a policy, covering only what you need. And policies start at only $19 per month. So if your policy is renewing soon, go to Zensurance and fill out a quote. Zensurance, mind your business.

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exclusively on Disney Plus 18 plus subscription required T's and C's apply. You and I have texted on and off over the years. And I remember you saying that, you know, you were listening to the show to get through the trauma. Yeah. The PTSD process. Yeah, it's nice to listen to somebody who's talking about their shit

when I was dealing with my shit. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, and you also, I don't know if you remember this, when I started my podcast, it was super helpful. I mean, it was only like a half hour. We talked. Yeah, and I remember Sudeikis introduced us because I was like, really, it was a super helpful. I mean, it was only like a half hour, but we talked. Yeah. Yeah. And I remember I, Sudeikis introduced us cause I was like, I'm starting this podcast. He had just done the show and I was like, and I listened to Marin. Can you introduce us? And,

and you said something that I've thought about a lot when, cause I'm not like a naturally good interviewer. And you said you find a thread and you just pull the thread until the thread's gone. And that's really just what I do. And it works out? It works great. Yeah. It's huge. Well, it's a weird thing, but you learn to identify it, you know,

and you can find it if you're, like, thinking about when you're, like, doing research or trying to talk to somebody. I mean, but usually it happens when you're talking to somebody where you realize there's a tonal shift somehow. Yeah. And you can just kind of move through it. Well, you told me that. The other thing you said was I was really struggling with.

I was like, because it was before I had announced that I was not going to be running for anything. So I was also having to deal with the whole you got to make episodes have to be about issues and all this stuff. Who was saying that? Your constituents? Your potential constituents? I would say more like my consultants and probably me driving myself to think like I had to drive toward this idea. And so then I remember I told you, I was like, yeah, I get in these conversations.

I think they're going to be about one thing. And I find something interesting, but it's not what the episode is supposed to be about. And you go, well, do you record your intros before or after you talk to the people? And I was like, after. And you go, well, then why don't you just decide what the episode is about then? And I remember thinking, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. That's what I did. Yeah, you don't have to, after the fact, you don't have to go like,

no, I fucked this one up. Like, I really wanted to talk to him about this, but I didn't. Yeah, I was like, oh, super interesting thing you just said, but that's not actually what we're here to talk about, which makes no sense. Well, I mean, but that does happen in the world of politics. Oh, for sure. Yeah, I mean, like I've talked to, politicians will talk about what they want no matter what they're asked. Yeah. It's kind of an amazing thing.

You can just sit there, like there are people that are very good at it, where you just sit, you ask them one question, they'll be like, that's interesting. But what I'm thinking about, well, okay. Well, I picture it as like, I remember RoboCop, RoboCop had like, when they would show you through RoboCop's eyes and you'd see the drop down menu come down.

Oh yeah. So when I was doing interviews as a politician, it was like, there was a drop down menu. It was like, you'd be asking a question, but I'm looking at my drop-down menu to think about which question do I want to answer?

And how can I kind of bend this into their questions a little bit? How do I make the listener forget that that's not the fucking question at all? And there lies the skill. Yeah, once you can fake that. Yeah. But, I mean, it's weird because like going over this stuff there's a lot of things happening today and then also when i think about how you know there was pressure on you from i mean in 2016 when you ran right for senate yeah for senate

that there was you know obama was like when it came down to like, what's the democratic bench? And you're like, we got this one guy. We got this guy. There's one guy on the bench, this candor guy in Missouri. Yeah. And then, and then that's when the spiral happened. Yeah. I mean, I didn't know that then, but then I was like, oh, this is it.

Yeah. I'm, this is my moment. You're going to be president. Yeah. Yeah. You're going to run for president. Yeah. I was like, oh, I'm discovered you know like so the chronology of that part of it was that you

had run for senate right yeah and you lost but not by much but you did that amazing ad yeah that got everybody like it's this ad of you assembling a gun with a blindfold on as a democrat and and being for gun control right right right it, right. It was genius, right? But then every Democrat, it was sort of like, oh my God, this guy knows how to talk to them. Like an anthropological experiment. He's got their attention and they kind of get it. Yeah, yeah.

No, you're right. It was like, so yeah, to set it up, Hillary lost my state by 19 on the day that i lost by 2.8 so which meant a whole bunch of people voted for trump and then voted for my liberal ass right so so yeah people were like how how did that happen what's the magic well you got to get a gun and a blindfold right well and the funny thing was is like i was just saying well well, I say the same stuff y'all say. I just say it like somebody from where I'm from. Right.

Yeah. And I think people wanted like a more complicated answer. But that was mostly it. Well, it just seems like there is a way to talk about this stuff without. But, I mean, we don't have to get into what politics has become and that type of fight of language. We can talk about whatever you want. That's why people listen to your show. Well, no, but I mean, but it's sort of like,

because I've been to your state. We appreciate it. Yeah, and the other guy, Josh Hawley, he's like a scary guy to me. He is very much like a scary guy. But the thing that scares me the most about him just in talking about politics, he's a highly educated, intentionally scary guy. Yeah.

That, you know, he's calculating and how he wants to maintain and hold power. And God knows what happens when a guy like that gets it. Yeah. Josh Hawley is a guy doing an impression of a guy who you would want to be. What I mean is there was a moment in Josh Hawley's campaign for Senate where he tweeted out some photo of himself and said, sometimes you got to give a speech in the back of a pickup truck or whatever. And I remember Claire McCaskill, his opponent was like, that's a flatbed truck. And to me, that's Josh Hawley, right? There's this guy, I got no problem with the fact that he's very highly educated and all those things. I got a problem with him not being able to decide which world he wants to live in.

He wants to be the educated guy who uses the $5 words, but he also wants to pretend that, like today, they asked him today, what do we do about mass shootings? And I don't have an answer to that question because obviously he doesn't want to say anything about guns, so he has to pretend it would never occur to him. He has to play dumb about things, which I think is kind of insulting. Right. But like but what he doesn't play dumb about is is very repressive and destructive. Yeah. Culturally. Right. I mean, yeah. Oh, yeah. So it's scary. I agree.

Yeah. But but like so what happens? You know what? How did you recognize the pressure that was on you, your reaction to it, that you would possibly be, you know, presidential hopeful in 2020? How did you, as just a guy who's a smart guy and Jewish guy, and I'm not going to, you know, characterize that in any certain way, which I do. It's fine. but like how do you know you're losing your shit not because of of fear of expectation or or insecurity and and instead it's ptsd yeah like what's that realization well i mean how did you know you were you weren't just fucking yourself you know what i mean like i didn't know for like the longest time like i'd say 11 years i i i you, I, you know, it's, well, that's the thing is the army does. And I, I wrote about this a little in the book, but I kind of wish I'd gotten into it a little more. There's

this necessary form of brainwashing, right? Like where the moment you get off the bus for basic, the message to you is, you know, uh, what you're doing is no big deal, right? It's ground into you. What you're doing is no big deal. And then you go and you deploy what you're doing is no big deal, right? It's ground into you. What you're doing is no big deal. And then you go and you deploy. What you're doing is no big deal. And that's necessary because like for me as an intelligence officer to keep going into these rooms that I might not get out of or for somebody else to do some other job, if you don't believe that what you're doing is no big deal, like you're not going to do it. The problem is nobody turns that off. And so whether you're thinking you're going to run for president like I was, deal, you're not going to do it. The problem is nobody turns that off. And so whether you're thinking you're going to run for president like I was, or you're doing any other job,

if you're struggling with this stuff, but you've got it on good authority from everybody you ever met in the United States Army, that what you did was no big deal, well, then what's going on with you can't be PTSD because you didn't earn PTSD. Right. So you're, in a way, it's some sort of gaslighting almost. Yeah. It's an indoctrination. Yeah. Right. I mean-

Well, that's the repetition with Marines. Then also, I think I imagine as the military's evolved, there's an element of like, this is the job. Yeah. Right. It's a profession for sure. But it's also, everybody knows something, someone who did more than them, right?

And as long as, in which every, you show me a medal of honor recipient and they will tell you about somebody who did more than them. It doesn't matter. And also the language around trauma in general is expanded now. Like it seems that, you know, it is the word,

you know, whether it's, you know. It always started out with military PTSD, but now it's like badly parented people, victims of abuse. I mean, everybody's got a mild PTSD. I would imagine the entire culture post-COVID, which is sort of the drive of my new hour, that there is PTSD from, I mean, we thought we were all going to die. Right. For months. Well, it could be that car accident, losing somebody. Yeah. It's anything that you can get stuck on. And people always ask me, like other veterans will ask me, well, why does it happen to this person and not that person?

And I'm like, I have no idea. But you're sort of manifested in terms of, you know, when you became aware of it, you know, stopped you from your political career. Yeah. I got to a point where, you know, the way I talk about it is, um, rock bottom is the international capital of zero fucks left to give. And that's, I, so it wasn't like I, sometimes I have hard time. I know I should give myself more credit for like, I made a choice that was right for me and for my family and all that. But at the time I was like, well, I'm done now. You know, it was like, I can't, I can't keep going.

I'm exhausted. And I was, I was scared because I was having suicidal ideation at that point. And so I just got to a point where I was like, I'm afraid of continuing. I was afraid of not continuing because I didn't know what my life would be like. It was the only thing that was going well for me was my professional life. But I also, I just came to a point where I didn't feel I had a choice. And once I called the Veterans Crisis Line and talked to somebody who spoke to me with a tone that said to me like, oh, I guess I actually sound like everybody else who calls this number. Whereas I had been telling myself, well, I'm not like everybody else. I didn't earn it.

But when they talked to me and they didn't seem in any way either impressed or underwhelmed by my trauma. I was like, oh, I guess that's me. Yeah, yeah. And it was very upsetting, but there was also a part of it, particularly when I was diagnosed, that was, you know, like anything else, it's good to get an answer. Odd because the VA treated the condition the same way they treated your job in the Army. Yeah. This happens. This is what you do.

Yeah. Right? Yes, but the VA was like, but we know what to do about this right which is the difference between the va and the army right but i mean i'm saying what the the the the thing that caused it oh sure yeah the the thing they just keep telling you that this is just what it is right that you said that this is normal this is normal this is normal yeah and then you got ttsd and they're going like yeah this is normal they're like oh did we not mention yeah that's gonna happen yeah same government that told me yeah yeah no that's exactly right which in that case

was comforting because then you sit in a chair and you talk to somebody who never is like that's weird right of course you know i mean i can't like i mean i yeah i mean i have to imagine it's their primary issue in terms of how they approach it because, you know, you're fortunate. As you said, your case was whatever the context was and how you experienced it. But some people get into drug addiction. Some people, like, don't make it. Some people do kill themselves. Some people never come out of it.

So what was the treatment? Did you do EMDR? I didn't. that was the next option like so i did cognitive processing therapy and i did prolonged exposure and then i was told early on like we're going to try these and then if we don't make progress with these we're going to do emdr and i'm also open to at some point i may do emdr yeah have you done it yeah what i mean what well yeah i mean it's one of those things where you're like, is this working?

But I mean, but they have success with it. Yeah. And, you know, I did it for, you know, once it, when Lynn passed and a few months after that, when I was specific, I think it helps if it's specific. Yeah. If it's broad, it's a little tricky. Like, if it's just sort of like, my childhood was bad. Right. If you can lock

into an event yeah that you can identify as as a trauma trigger or the trauma and you kind of process back from that i think it does something even if it's just the process of of making the connections there's a way it goes you know whether the buzzers or the light movement whether that's doing it or the actual methodology of it, I don't know. But my sponsor is a practitioner, so I got hip to it. You know, and then later I did it with somebody around, yeah, the lens death. Well, what I think has the similarity between it

and cognitive processing and prolonged exposure is you gotta go through the trauma. Like that's really, really right you can't it's not yeah yeah you got to get there right and that's and that's what i had been avoiding for 11 years is what i found out is the only way out is through but primarily because you didn't think your experience in combat was was worthy of having this particular ailment. Yeah. At first, that was like 100% of what it was. And then over time, it was like, well, I don't think that I earned, quote unquote, earned PTSD, right? But I also was like, eh, well, now I'm in politics.

So even when I got to the point where I was like, I should, I filled out paperwork at one point for the VA, but didn't answer all the questions, honestly, because I was worried about, I mean, look, I was thinking I want to be commander in chief like pretty soon. Like can the commander in chief have, you know, suicidal ideation, right. And like, like that's a glass ceiling. I'm not really in a hurry to break. And I imagine they all do in moments. Yeah. Maybe, I don't know. Lincoln. Sure. Sure. So the treatment took how long? It was about five months. yeah and so it was like a five-month weekly treatment course but like leading up to it though your life was pretty

like i mean let's go back i mean because so your family how many you got brothers and sisters yeah i got a younger brother and then i got like a mess of what we call unofficial foster brothers like kids who were in the house growing up. A lot of kids? Oh, really? Yeah. So your kids, your parents were in what? What was their? So my parents met as juvenile probation officers,

and then my dad was a cop part-time, and then he had like a security business. See, I love this. See, just because like, you know, people have the wrong idea about Jews. Well, before you make me out to be too blue collar yeah i want to be my great uncle also is like a broadway composer so that's all right i'm just saying that there there's a working class jewish element like as a jewish as a jewish kid you know there's this idea of exceptionalism which is true yeah but i remember when i worked in a deli in boston

you know and these guys would come in these old men and there was like you know a Jewish cop, there was a Jewish plumber, these guys that, you know, that come up, but they were, I mean, probably first generation guys. Yeah. But there was just, there was a Jewish working class at one point. Oh, sure. We weren't always just elitist liberals from Hollywood judging people. Yeah. Right.

I mean, yeah. How'd your parents get there? You had to, wait you see your great uncle is a broadway like big broadway composer yeah so that's why it's always funny for me to like like my dad you know he made the choice to do this public service work but then like his sister's a composer and then like his brother lives out here and was in the entertainment business so his father's brother so his father's brother is the Broadway composer, John Kander.

Kander and Ebb, like Chicago and Cabaret. Those are big. Yeah, New York, New York. And he's still around? He's still writing, man. Really? How old is he?

He just turned 95. Wow. He's like, and if you met, you'd be like, this dude is late 70s, is what you'd think. Yeah.

And he's working on a show for next year. And he just lives in the city? He and his husband, my uncle Albert, live up in Ulster County. Okay. But they go back and forth

between the city. Pandemic, they pretty much moved up to the country. Oh my, and so what did your grandfather do? So Pop was, he was in,

basically he was a businessman who wanted to do a lot more than that, but he was like, he turned around the family chicken business, which I never really understood other than my dad explained that he once saw where they had an assembly line where they had to slit the throats of chickens. And my dad was like, I don't want to be in this business. My grandpa didn't either and turned it around, sold, and got out of there. And then spent the last 20 years of his career as the development director for the Lyric Opera of Kansas City, which is all he ever really wanted was to be in the arts, but he wasn't artistically inclined. So you come from, like, how many generations of Missouri? So I'm fifth generation.

My kids are sixth in Kansas City, which is pretty rare for Jews. How'd they get there originally? So down, Milwaukee, down, like down like several generations i don't know my grandpa wrote a little thing for us once he said in the beginning there was the word and the word was meyer because meyer candor was the first that was the guy candor in kansas who made it to the mid they went to the midwest yeah and i don't he he knew the whole lineage and i got to look back through it but like um yeah that's basically it i think it came from like somewhere in switzerland originally oh yeah oh really there's a like a candor river there no kidding something yeah so they came over like early on in the almost in the in the in the wild

west yeah like i think the candors have been in the u.s for it's got to be like 10 generations now right because i think a lot of them came over on a land deal to farm the Midwest. You know, when you're fifth generation and Jewish in a town like Kansas City, like every Jew I knew growing up was my cousin or something. And so I— You knew the community because you go to Temple and they're all there. Yeah, well, and I didn't even hardly go. Like, I'm Jewish. You know, I hardly went to Temple.

It was like weddings and funerals. Yeah. So, like, when I went to school on the East Coast, all of a sudden I was around all these Jews who would be like, hey, you're a Jew. And I'd be like, yeah, I sure am. Whatever that is, I'm learning right now. And so the funny thing about it is, so my wife, who we met when we were 17, she came as a refugee of anti-Semitism in Ukraine, her family when she was eight. And so I always have kind of jokingly said in order to marry a Jewish girl from Kansas City, to be safe, I married an immigrant.

But the funny part about that is my grandfather was the president of the Jewish family services, which was like the resettlement agency in Kansasansas city he's the one who like prioritized bringing these jews from the soviet union into kansas city and then his grandson married one so you have ukrainian in-laws oh yeah yeah and they are they're all here yeah they're all here oh my god so do they have family there now no family but they know some people oh and so it that's been uh it's been interesting because like they're looking at it and it's the first time I've seen them sort of really acknowledge like that there's things going on there still. Because up until now, it's always been like, well, that place didn't want us, that place being the Soviet Union at the time. And now it, you know, cut to they elect a Jewish president with 70 plus percent of the vote right and so it's like it doesn't necessarily change their view of what of where they came from but they feel more connected

to it now i think yeah whereas my wife is like and she's like uh you know i was born in kansas city she wasn't but to her she's like i got enough i'm not going to deal with that too all right you know which i get and you got kids? Yeah, yeah. Two kids. So you're growing up in Kansas City. And what, how, I mean, how was, did you deal with anti-Semitism? Not really. No.

Because, I mean, you know, you would every once in a while, the same way that when you're a kid, your friends find a thing about you to make fun of. Yeah, but nothing real. I don't know. Like in Albuquerque, probably very similar, right? like people didn't know enough what a jew was to know how to be anti-semitic yeah you know oddly that's still sort of prevalent yeah yeah people not knowing what jews are yeah there's a there's a wide swath i mean some people would accuse me of not knowing what jews are well me too because of yeah it's a yeah but no i i get it yeah there

was definitely a thing but my parents and grandparents dealt with it, especially my grandparents. But for me, I was like, I mean, then I went to Catholic high school. So it was like- So did my brother. Yeah. I mean, for me, that was like, oh, I was a really good way to get your dad's attention, like taking me out on a date. So it was fine.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the priests, they wanted to convert the Protestant kids, and they figured I was beyond their reach. So I got left alone. So what were you doing as you were growing up though i mean what when did politics become sort of a vision i mean did you have other ideas for yourself i mean what were you driving to i was going to play center field for the kansas city royals yeah that was i was playing baseball and that was my whole life and then really just sort of that yeah and yeah it was simple i was like that's and you were good played in you were good, played in high school, college?

I played in high school. I was good. It became readily apparent. That maybe you're not going to be on there? Yeah, about sophomore year, I was like, I really like baseball, and I'm pretty good. I don't think I'm going to be making a living doing this. And then debate came along. So I kept doing baseball, but I realized,

oh, I'm pretty good at this. And like, I did actually get scholarship offers for that. For debate? Yeah, I didn't. Stupidly, I ended up going to a college that had neither a debate nor a baseball team. I don't know how that happened. Where's that? American University. In DC? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And then, so then, you know, we started a little debate team, my brother and I, for like a year. And then realized like, hey, we're in the nation's capital where there's a lot of other stuff to do. Yeah. You went to college with your brother? Yeah, one of my unofficial foster brothers. Okay. Explain that to me.

So your parents were- It's like a really weird term to throw around, but I'm so used to it. Unofficial foster brother. They just didn't come through the foster system. My folks were juvenile probation officers. Yeah, so they just said like, okay, come live with us. Pretty much.

Like that was their deal. Like I had friends- You can't go home. Come at our house. Come at our house. You've pretty much explained it. Like because, like I had friends whose families

were struggling in one way or the other and it wasn't even like we sat down at the table and my parents were like, hey, we're thinking of Mel or Justin or Dan like coming to live here. They were like, so they're going to be here now. We're like, great. How many are you talking?

Over the course of time, there were three or four. It was at different times. But like, so when I refer to, my son gets really confused by this when I refer to like who his uncles are. Yeah. And like who my brothers are. But it's interesting with, how old were you though?

Like, because like, I mean, to build that bond and to accept it, I mean, you must've been pretty young. I mean. Yeah, it started when I was in elementary school and then just like, and so like a couple of kids coming in through elementary school and then high school. Wild. And yeah, I mean, they're all the groomsmen at my wedding

and my closest friends still. That's amazing. Yeah. I mean, they're all the groomsmen at my wedding and my closest friends still. That's amazing. Yeah. And are you folks alive still? Yeah. Are they still working? Yeah. Well, my dad is.

So my dad has like an upper neuron issue, but he's able to do a lot from home. It's like a version of ALS. Oh, okay. But it's like long course and like he can still drive and walk and talk but it's labored yeah and he he's a he was a private pilot and he buys and sells airplanes so he can do a lot of it over email oh and you know they always a private pilot has been like it was like his way of rebelling when he was in reform school I think when he was like 16 he went to reform school yeah my dad's got like a whole other great story you know he was the the like the

rebellious kid who became a cop and then okay and then i think became like a rebellious cop i'm not sure oh yeah and then uh but yeah um he so he does that and then um my mom uh she stopped working when i was real young and raised us and they got health issues but you know what they make it to every one of my kids games every one of my baseball games because I still play and I still play yeah I play in the still think you got a shot I mean in my mind deep in my the recesses of my mind no yeah man I play in an over 30 wood bat league and I think about it way too much my wife would tell you I talk about it way too too much. It's nice though, if you got a good sport and you got a healthy sense of competition. Yeah. I think that's important. I don't have that.

Everything's very threatening to me. Well, it gives you things to run away from. Yeah, I guess so. Or just to like take very personally. Yeah. Well, I mean, yeah, that was me until I found baseball again, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, so the debate thing led to an interest in politics or you didn't have that until you came back from the war? I had an interest in, I had an, I had a somewhat interest, but it wasn't like my family would talk, we would talk politics at dinner. It was like my parents were public service oriented and so we would talk about the news and then yeah, debate, like policy debate in high school. I actually at first thought, oh, I'm really good at giving speeches. And then I realized, oh no, I actually like, I'm really into this stuff, this policy stuff.

And then it was in college when I realized like, oh no, I want to run for office. I didn't know what the hell that meant. I just, I want to run for office. And then by law school, I was like, all right, that's what I'm going to do. And I kind of figured out what that would look like. And we'd move back to Kansas City. What changed with going to Afghanistan was, you know, I was a political science major before that and everything. So like I saw politics as, it was like a game. It was just an extent.

I couldn't play baseball anymore. This was competitive. I knew what I thought. And you went to law school? Yeah, I did. I stayed in DC, went. This was competitive I knew what I thought and you went to law school Yeah, I did it stayed in DC went to Georgetown. So you got a law degree and everything. Yeah got a law degree You're a lawyer. I'm I'm a recovering lawyer. Yeah I'm like I don't have to sit for the 15 hours Who knows in the last four or five years would be the biggest boon for lawyers and ever and I would miss the whole thing

Well good, it's the worst kind of law. It's just like everyone's suing everyone. Yeah. Because that's what people do now to worm out of stuff. Yeah. There's a lot of performative stuff now. But also, I didn't really like being a lawyer that much. I had a political science degree

and I was like, well, now I guess I do this. Right. Okay, yeah, sure. Well, so then when I went to Afghanistan, that was the first time I'd ever been on the receiving end of decisions made by politicians.

Yeah, that negatively affected my life. Well, why'd you go to Afghanistan? was the first time I'd ever been on the receiving end of decisions made by politicians. Yeah. That like negatively affected my life. Like why'd you go to Afghanistan though? I had of all, like you were set up, you know, it seems like you could have had a life without that. Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, for me it was, I was in DC when nine 11 happened and I had grown up, my, my grandpa had been like everybody's grandpa, right? Been in World War II, you know, but I guess to me, it just always made sense. Like, if there's a war, you go. Really? And I wasn't like from a military family, right?

But you were from public servants. Yeah, and I don't think they intended, like if you had gone back in time and been like, so if you continue in this direction, he's going to the army. I'm not sure that my parents were super jazzed about it. How did they react to that? They were scared for me, but they knew like, you're not going to talk me out of it. And so 9-11 happened and I was like, well, I'm going to go, I'm going to do this. So then, and then I, you know, when you do the training, you do all of it.

Where were you ideologically with that though? Well, I was opposed to the war in Iraq. Right. But i mean like but when 9-11 happened where did your brain go in terms of where we stood as a country uh you know this i i don't know how you feel but i feel like it was so much more simple then right it was like we were attacked we hadn't gone into this phase of our of our democracy where everything was a fight. And I felt like we were attacked. We're going to war. I want to go to war against the people who attacked us.

So, yeah. So, like, you weren't down a kind of lefty wormhole with, you know, who's to blame, chickens coming home to roost. Was it Saudi-driven, any of that stuff? No, I was like, people my age, particularly men my age, are going to go. And who the hell am I to be like, but I shouldn't have to. It's just how I saw it.

But it was a choice. Oh, it was 100% a choice. And professors at my school, for instance, would look at, at the time I was on crutches because I had hurt my knee and I had to get surgery and physical therapy to go into the Army. And they looked at me like I was an absolute crazy person. They're like, you're convincing the army to take you? But to me, it just made sense. I don't know if I'd been Vietnam era, maybe I make a totally different choice. But at that time,

that made sense to me. I didn't think the war in Iraq made any sense, but I also was like, by that point I was training to go. And I was like, well, some of these people I'm friends with are going to go. How am I going to be like, they'll go, I'll stay. And, but it was when I was there. Uh, so when nine 11 happened, I was 20. Um, and so, you know, I was what, what you would refer to as a military aged male, right? Like in other countries, that's what they'd call it. So you went to law school when you got back? I got to law. No, I went to law school while I did ROTC.

So instead of becoming an army lawyer, I did all the training to become an officer while I was in law school. Okay. So you enlisted. You did ROTC. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And then you're in law school. And then you go.

So the war had been going on for a while. Yeah. So I got there in 06. Okay. To Afghanistan. Yeah. But by that time, and then you go. So the war had been going on for a while. Yeah, so I got there in 06, to Afghanistan. But by that time, hadn't you educated yourself around what might have... Well, I was educated already. No, I know that, but like at 29, 11 happens, but it's just sort of like the politics around the Afghanistan war were dubious. I don't...

At that time, I still felt like, well, this mission still makes sense. Okay. Right? But that said, it's still a good question, but the frame of mind I was in at that point was like, yeah, I was a guy who was thinking he was going to run for office, but really- So that was there. It was there, but I was like, more than that, I was, at that point, I was a soldier, right? At that point, to me, I was thinking much less by that point about the politics of it all and much more like I was just doing my job and doing what the other people around me were doing.

So the ROTC thing started that. You got a job to do. This is normal. Got a job to do, and it was who I was. It became my identity. I went from being a law student who did ROTC to like, by the time I'm in intelligence school, getting ready to go, I'm like, I'm an army officer. Was that your choice? You could specialize? Yeah, I chose. Because of ROTC or what? Well, as a reservist, you, which is what I was going

in to be, you can sort of, if you find a spot that where they need you, they'll send you to the school for that thing. And, and so I didn't want to be a lawyer in the army. I felt like there was going to be plenty of time to be a lawyer the rest of my life. And I thought I could do a good job as an intelligence. I had this idea that sounds so corny, but in my head, and I still believe this, I felt like if I did my job well, I could help other people get home safe. And back then it was that simple to me. I never got the opportunity to feel like I achieved that, but I think most people don't, which is the problem. So when you say that was what you wanted to do,

being an intelligence officer, how did you think that fit in? What did you think was going to be the result of your work? Yeah, that's a good question. Yeah, because you go over and you have an idea of like what war is gonna be yeah um and then like most other things it's not that at all like that's not what it is so when i got there you're not in the trenches no not anymore right world war it's not that kind of war anymore right and and you're and even then you kind of in your

mind's eye like in the movies they never show guys just sitting around bored you know or which is part of it or hot or cold well they're usually in a large tent like structure and then all of a sudden they go out in a jeep and you're hoping uh what is it a ied is that what it doesn't blow you up right and so that i experienced you know the whole like hoping that I don't blow up. I got my fill of that. I got that. But I guess, you know, as an intelligence officer, like, I went to intelligence school and they teach you all these things and they go, you'll never get to do this because you're a second lieutenant, you're a low ranking officer, you'll never get to do this or that. I show up. And the thing about war is like,

the person in charge of a unit, they just got to work with what they got.. I show up. And the thing about war is like the person in charge of a unit, they just got to work with what they got. So I show up and they're like, okay, well, we have this job and this job. One was like an analyst to work the night shift. And the other was we need somebody to go out and figure out, uh, who of all these people in the Afghan government and military, who of them are like really corrupt and are working with the enemy. And, and we need somebody to figure that out, but we also need somebody to go out and find out the information and i was what 25 years old and convinced i was bulletproof so i didn't hesitate i was like yeah that job i want that job oh so you're going in sitting down with people with a translator yep yeah that was my gig so are you still in touch with your translator? Yeah. No kidding.

Yeah, we're close. And his name is Salam. And yeah, and so it was me and Salam, like bebopping around. And ironically, I don't know if it's ironic, but like coincidentally, Salam, he had spent most of his time in the U.S. in Kansas City. So we were like just these two Kansas City guys bebopping around. So he's an American Army regular guy? No, he was a contractor. Okay.

He was in his late 50s then. Uh-huh. And by the time I got there, he'd been back in Afghanistan for a few years, you know, like three years already. So what's the day-to-day? What are the stories?

Like, you're going out and you get an idea, oh, we can go meet with this guy, develop a relationship with this guy, and he'll give us information on this person who we suspect is working with the Taliban in this province or is running drugs along the heroin highway. So this is regional. You're not solving countrywide problems necessarily, but in your province or whatever you call it, this is the job. Well, yes. And for me, I was like in this weird spot where I was sort of at the top of the chain because I was working with the director of intelligence and his job was to tell like the general in charge and the ambassador and people like that, Hey, all these people were working

with the highest level. Here's what they're really up to. So you're dealing with spooks. Yeah. I'm, I'm, I'm like like sitting down. My boss, my commander over there, he referred to it as thug ant. So like in intelligence, you have all this stuff that ends in ant. Like signals intelligence is the guys who listen to stuff. Sure. He made up the term or heard it from somebody,

thug ant. And he described it as, later he told me, you were building relationships with thugs in order to get information on other thugs. Right. That was my job. Yeah Yeah, okay, so I was convinced like that's not combat I went to meetings now it took me years and it took then therapy later for somebody to be like

So you were by yourself in the most dangerous place in the planet for hours at a time Nobody knew where you were and nobody could come and save you with people who might want to kill you or could kill you Good kid. Yeah, I mean you people you travel with just you and so long usually just me and so long and you were and nobody could come and save you with people who might want to kill you or could kill you could kill yeah i mean people you travel with just you and salam usually just me and salam and you were you were uh told it would be safe no nobody ever was like it's safe they're just like we we need we need to find this out so you're ready to fire yeah like you you're pretty much like you always know where the exits are you you have a plan you know how many guys are in this room how many guys are between this room and my vehicle can i take all three of these guys and oh yeah so you don't know if you're walking into a taliban trap necessarily right yeah or or uh

oh there's all sorts of other bad actors narco traffickers and different terrorist groups and you know stuff like that and you talking to all these people? Yeah, making friends, man. That was my gig. Opium movers? Yeah, yeah, a lot of that. Aspiring terrorist groups? Yeah, I mean, or just people who were like, they could get paid a lot by one of the groups.

I mean, you'd be worth a lot, right? You know, and so you're just constantly aware of your surroundings. And it brings all of your senses to bear. You know, I talked to Chris Hedges years ago about, you know, war is a force that gives us meaning, which seems like, you know, that is sort of the zone of trauma that you're dealing with. That you're in such a hyper cortisol adrenalized state all the time that anything else seems less than. And you build up this weird kind of hyper vigilance that you can't shake. And you crave.

You crave. And also you come to understand it. You know, like it's simple, right? I describe it. I don't really play golf much, but this analogy works. A golfer, they go out, they got eight clubs in their bag, right? And different hole, different distance, they're going to select a different club. That's regular life. And then you go to a place like Afghanistan, you need three clubs. One is anger, one is fear, one is boredom.

And then you come home and you're supposed to start using all these other clubs again. But it was much simpler and your brain understood only really needing the three. And you're also worried, if I start using these others, somebody might kill me. Because your brain has learned, that's what I had to learn in therapy is my brain had learned that if I let my guard down, that's what it learned in Afghanistan. Is that if I let my guard down, I will be kidnapped and killed. And I just had to do a lot of work in therapy to unlearn that. Did you almost get kidnapped and killed? No, but I constantly thought I was going to be but did you see that happening to

people uh no i guess when i think about it no but it was like every day i mean you you obviously you hear about it because people they don't say it's going to be where were you i was in kabul but i went some other places they don't say it's going to be safe but what they do say is this is what happened to this person this is what you know and it's for me fortunately it was for the most part not people i knew personally but you know they just you're aware that it's happening but you hear bombs in the distance yeah you can occasionally you hear that and so how long were you there i was only there four months which was another reason why i kept telling myself yeah that's nothing i couldn't it couldn't be ptsd no shit you know

um because then i got buddies who like did multiple tours and spent years there. And so then you're telling yourself, well, how can I claim the mantle of PTSD if they— They're okay. Yeah. And then you find out later, like, none of them are okay. Right. You know? Yeah, yeah.

But you don't find that out until later. Yeah. I mean, it's a big shift, you know? I mean, no matter what time or what you're doing, I mean, to operate in that much, have to manage that much fear. Yeah. And the thing is, is at the time, you don't recognize it as fear. Like at first, when I first got there, it felt like fear. And then after a while, it's like you said, it's your job.

And it's what people around you are doing. And it's incredible what can become normal. I can't imagine. And then also, I kind of, I loved it a little. Sure. Well, that's the thing. How is that not, how, being jacked like that? Yeah.

Getting away with it? Right. And, and exactly. And like, you feel like, particularly like in my gig where I was oftentimes not wearing a uniform. And like in the army, anything that's not the same as everyone else is instantly the coolest thing, right? So like that guy doesn't have to shave

and that guy is wearing like a gray fleece. That guy must be a fucking ninja, right? And so some days that was me and I felt like a cowboy, you know? And there were moments that were really scary where I realized like, oh, I'm sitting down with this person. I realize who the person is halfway through. This is a person.

Oh, we're investigating this person. He knows we're investigating him. Yeah, this might be a trap. All that stuff and other things that happened that at the time you think they're normal. And then as the years go by, like being in a convoy and at the time there was a thing where suicide bombers were jumping onto vehicles and detonating themselves.

And I'm in a convoy and I'm in like the passenger seat. So next to the driver. And you feel somebody jump onto the side and we're in like really slow moving traffic when it happens. And just out of instinct, you pull up your rifle and you zero in

and you look and you're ready to fire, but just thinking I got no time at all. Yeah. And fortunately for me, right before I did, I realized like it was a little boy looking back at it. So it can be little stuff like that

where you're like, you can't help but think about how that could have gone. And so that's the sort of thing that would visit me every night in my nightmares. But mostly my nightmares were where I did get kidnapped and killed. The thing you're most afraid of. Yeah, the thing that I spent every day there trying to avoid. So you come home after four months and what, you go back to Kansas City?

Yeah, come back and go within two weeks. I'm back at my law firm trying to care about writing legal memos for corporate clients. And when did you do your first political thing? So I came back in early 07 and I started running for the state legislature in August of 07. That's when I really started. I'd like announced, but I really started running. Yeah. So it wasn't long. I got, in looking back, I realized I got right

into distracting myself is what I did. I recently learned the term over-functioning. Yeah. And I guess that's what I was doing. Yeah,

I call it multitasking. Sure, that'll work, you know. For me, they used to call it working really hard. It was supposed

to be a compliment. Yeah, I'm always busy. I'm always busy, man. Yeah. And that was me because it was, now I look back and I realize like, what I wasn't going to do was spend time with myself, right? I was going to constantly.

And the trauma thing of seeking redemption, which, you know, there's an element of, with trauma, there's an, I've learned that there's an instinct to want to redeem yourself. But then when you add on to that sort of the survivor's guilt part of the military anyway. Redeem yourself how? I thought, well, look, to me, here's a story I would tell myself. I did four months. I got friends who were still there.

There were people who when I got there, they were there, and they were still there when I left,, they were there and they were still there when I left, like Salam. And there were, you know, so- Oh, redeem yourself to them. Yeah, and to myself because I hadn't- So you feel ashamed. I hadn't done enough.

Right. And really I recognize now, like there was nothing I could have ever, like I tried to go back at one point. Yeah, really? Yeah, and there was no way I actually ever would have felt that I had done enough.

And it was only like through therapy and everything that I realized like, oh, I actually did quite a lot. Did you choose to leave or you got sent home?

Out of Afghanistan. Yeah. My tour ended. Oh, okay. And, and yeah, and I remember, so it's a long story

that's in the weeds and boring, but the short version is I was part of like a program where it was like an individual augmentee from a unit

where I got sent in to fill a spot for a while and most of those tours were actually like three months and I stayed a little extra time so that's weird

so you have a guilt that you didn't do enough and that you know you met guys over there that you saw in a tougher situation than you and they didn't get out yeah and that you know you met guys over there that you saw as as in a tougher situation than you and they didn't get out yeah and uh and then you know and and then just the the sort of adrenaline loss that you know you're no longer engaged i think that was really the the nature of

of of what i talked to hedges about a million years ago was just say all of a sudden you're you're just here and life is not operating at that level it's like i can't imagine just sitting a law firm fucking i i remember when a partner came in and was like uh you know this is really important and we both we both kind of knew i wasn't going to be there long when i go is anybody going to die and and we kind of looked at each other like yeah i'm't going to be there long when I go, is anybody going to die? And we kind of looked at each other like, yeah, I'm probably going to get a new job. Like I wasn't like fired, but it was like, this is nuts. So then I left and I became a trial lawyer for a while. And that was like a little more fun.

It was more fun than that. You know, like representing real clients and feeling like I was doing something good. To me, I was like, that's what a soldier would do. He would represent like working people who got hurt. And, and so it was two things. It was what you just described. It was, this is not the adrenaline. This doesn't have the meaning. It was adrenaline, but I thought in my head meaning, right? And then the other part was I had to prove to myself that I wasn't irredeemable. And then, and the, for me, that became, I have to get into politics. I have to make these huge changes. And that will be worthy of- Right. And also, that's what drove you initially, that if what you're telling me, you went into the service because you wanted to

get people out or help people out, that there was a- That was in there. Right. And that you grew up in a public service, civic service household where people help people as a premium put on that, which in a liberal service civic service household where people help people is a premium put on that which in a you know in a liberal way right yeah yeah so so then i guess that in light of that you just kind of picked up the agenda again yeah but also you you brought up sorry that you know that you were out in the other end of policy so that was also an incentive incentive. It made me very righteous about it all, right? It was like-

What was the turn of events on that? Like when did you realize that you could change policy? In terms of like, this isn't right, or like this is screwed up. So I remember the first thread that I drew between the two was, so I remember being in Afghanistan and the first thing you notice at that time is like,

wow, pretty much none of the vehicles I'm in are armored, like almost ever. And that was, I mean, you were, I think, doing Air America at that time. Sure. I'm sure you were talking about it a lot. Yeah, like people were sending people, they were sending stuff to armor the cars. Exactly. Right. I remember that, yeah.

And so that was like very clear. So that was like very clear. But then other stuff like missions through really dangerous territory where we were supposed to have helicopters, but they would say, and I don't even know if this was right, but what they would say is, well, most of that equipment's in Iraq, so you're going over the road. And I just remember thinking like, oh, this is what it's like to be on the receiving end of politically driven decisions, right? Right. And I had never, like no politician could have made a decision that took food off my family's table or anything growing up. So that was the first time for me. And then I come home. You put it together. Right. Yeah. And I come home and I was already going to run, but now it had changed my thinking. So I remember at the time, a bunch of people had been cut off Medicaid in my state and it was being crowed about by the Republican governor at the

time as this great accomplishment in budget cutting. And to me, right or wrong, I saw like a through line. I was like, that is just the same as sending people without armor that they need. Now we're taking credit for something that's just hurting people who are already hurting. And so by the time I got to the legislature, I was just, every Republican I met was Donald Rumsfeld until proven otherwise. You know, I was just so angry. Yeah. You know, and I was on a mission. And how was that satisfying you, the legislature in Missouri? At times, briefly, but not like, I mean, I did two terms and then I ran for statewide office.

So no, you know, like I, and I started running for statewide office in my second term, right, for secretary of state. So I pretty quickly, like, in my first term, I got a few things done, nothing major, because I was in the minority party. And yeah, I felt really stymied and pissed off. That sounds like a nightmare. So I mean, you've got, like, that's the other thing

that people don't really realize is like, who the fuck would want to do politics now? Which is, yeah. And we're finding that like you know like the the level of corruption possible and just craven behavior and and and short-term grifting and low ball low money grifting yeah well i don't think it's ever been different but anyone who is who has you know ideals or ideologically progressive it's like why would they even fucking bother

and i'm and i imagine you've you've asked yourself these questions someone's got to do something but i it doesn't seem like anyone's got follow-through and it seems like there's a generation of of sort of uh self-serving people there's there's a lot of there's a lot of issues yeah yeah but but i mean like there's still a lot of really great people doing things. But I think what's definitely true about what you're saying is that we are at a moment where there's so much cynicism, or maybe the word is like, there's so little progress, to your point, that really talented people are like, well, I'm not going to do it. If I want to make the world better, I'm not going to do it there. I'm going to do it over here.

Yeah. Yeah. But also, it's pretty out in the open now that there's a fairly organized ideological move towards minority rule in a shameless way. That there is a fascistic element that has been in hiding that turns out to be most of the Republicans' agenda for 30 years. Well, and it's worldwide right now. That's the connection I think we don't make often enough in America. What, you mean autocrats? Yeah.

Like, we think of it as, like, Trumpism. But that's Trumpism. I mean, sure, most places live under autocrats. Right, like Ukraine versus Putin, you know, Hungary, you know, all these places where... China. Yeah, where there's this battle. Yeah, a battle going on between-

Turkey? Exactly. Like, they just had CPAC in Hungary, right? Like, so we, as Americans, like to think of everything as like, oh, this is our thing. But no, we're- But this wasn't ever our thing. And sadly, most Americans are going like, what are you talking about? Right.

We're just, we are a battleground in this worldwide fight. Yeah. And so in one way, like hopefully that is animating to a lot of people. But the problem is, is that it also can be really defeating. I don't know if it's explained properly. I don't know that most people feel the urgency. I think that most people, if people, I've decided in this country, if people are okay, they're fine. It's enough. They don't have to engage in civic responsibility almost on any level. And they'll complain about paying their taxes, even if they're good people.

But, you know, until something becomes plain and usually it's too late. Yeah. I just don't want to be, I mean, they're already loading people onto trucks who are suspected to not be Americans. Like, so if the trucks are already in use it really comes down to who's operating the trucks that's grim yeah you know what i'm saying well yeah for a long time i tried to really try and stay sunny and optimistic about it and be like no we're gonna and this was really when i was still very much in the fight with let america vote which is the organization i had started and everything and and so what choice did i have right and also i was still in my own like i had this idea of myself and i hadn't gotten

any treatment yet so like this is if i wasn't in this fight what was i right and i'm not saying like that therefore mental health has everything to do with why you're in politics. But I am saying that, uh, now it is hard for me not to have a much more sober look at it and say like, yeah, it, we're getting to a place where if we don't have big changes, it's just going to get really, really, it's going to get harder and harder to make big changes. Well, it's going to get horrendous. So you, you like when you came close with the Senate after this, so you were on the trajectory, but so now we're back where we started that now, you know, what was the moment where you're like, Oh, this is the suicidal ideation or just the

process. It just, it just got to the point where I remember just saying, I don't want to do this anymore. I was exhausted all the time. Because you can't manage your brain. Yeah. And look, I was basically running for president because in the course of about a year, I was giving speeches in 46 states. I was in Iowa and New Hampshire all the this, the moment where I knew something was really wrong was I gave the keynote speech, uh, in Nashua, New Hampshire at the McIntyre Shaheen dinner, which is like the, it's, it's like the big annual democratic night, right? Where, and so like the year before me, I think the keynote was, uh, Hillary Clinton and the year, uh, after me it was like joe biden and one of those years it was elizabeth warren and then this year it was me so it was like this was the event this was the

like you were you were you were the guy yeah like it was live on this is our hope c-span road to the white house and stuff and i don't know if i was the guy this is our hope but it was my moment to to audition for that yeah to have people go okay, he is or is not the guy. Yeah. And I crushed it. Like, I crushed it. And I knew I'd crushed it. And I felt, and at that time in my life, like, and this is probably something you can relate to as a performer who has dealt with mental health stuff.

I felt good when I was performing and no other time. Right? Yeah. Yeah, that means you might be doing it for the wrong reason. Right. Yeah. But I didn't know that then.

I just thought I must continue to be performing or in my case, fighting the good fight, engaged in this way. And at this point, I had needed this dosage to get higher and higher and higher for it to work. And so now I give this huge speech. Keep killing.

Yeah. And with bigger and bigger stages. Yeah. And at this point, I've also like, I've sat down with Obama and he's at least been somewhat encouraging about the idea of me running and all this. So I'm like, I should be right where I want to be.

It's the zenith of my professional career. And like, you know, the next day I get on, I go to get on the plane to go home and the TSA guy checks my ID and he's like, oh, it's the next day i get on i go to get on the plane to go home and the tsa guy checks my id and he's like oh it's the next president united states so like i should be there right yeah and i get on the plane and the endorphins just drop out of me and i feel just as empty as i had felt before and that was the first time that i was like okay something may be really wrong because like if this won't last 24 hours yeah uh then something's really wrong and

and then i went to i got invited to go give a speech in hawaii so my family and i went to hawaii and i yeah i actually slowed down for a few days because it's hawaii sure and i realized like i'm exhausted all the time because i didn't sleep i had terrible nightmares every night and i didn't sleep i was you know going too hard at everything the nightmares of being kidnapped and killed yeah like night terrors with sleep paralysis and all that fun stuff geez yeah it was no fun um but i didn't know i just thought that's what after a while you're just like i guess this is what i am you forget that you didn't used to be like that and then my campaign manager at the time abe I was like so what if I what if I didn't run

and he's like well you go back home run for mayor and I grabbed that shit like a life raft I was just like oh in my head I was like that's gonna fix everything I'm gonna go home I'm gonna go to the VA and I'm gonna become mayor and I'm gonna do great things for my neighbors and like so you're gonna go via you're gonna go deal with the shit. Yeah. That's what I told myself. I wasn't ready to tell myself it was PTSD, but I was ready to say, there's something wrong and I should go to the VA. So you thought it might be depression, bipolar?

Yeah. I was like, maybe I just need to talk to somebody. I didn't know what it was. Yeah. But I was like, but again, redemption. I'm going to go and I'm going to lower the crime rate. And I'm going to, in my hometown that I live in, we just talked about fifth generation there.

I can get results. Get results. I can see them. That's what I kept telling myself. I'll get results and I'll see it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And started running for mayor. It was going great.

Like, I mean, but you know, if you are going to run for president, you decide to run for mayor, like you really should be the front runner for mayor. Like, otherwise, what are you doing? Well,, you decide to run for mayor, like you really should be the front runner for mayor. Like, otherwise what are you doing? Well, that's the other thing is like, like it's just,

it's another layer of pressure on yourself because now you're going to have to deal with, you know, I just disappointed the fucking, the, the, the old boys network that's about to deliver me to the big house or the big, the big,

yeah. Or like at a more basic level, cause you're nailing it. Because what I used to say to my wife all the time is I feel like I'm disappointing everyone. So it was like, I'm disappointing my son because I'm not around. I'm disappointed. But I'm also, if I am around, I'm disappointed. Because unlike when you run statewide and run for mayor, nobody's like, I'm sure he's busy.

Because they know you live in town. Right. So you're supposed to be everywhere. Yeah. And Kansas City has a violent crime problem so i instantly being hyper vigilant and having this soldier mentality to protect people i start researching you know urban violence and i'm not even mayor yet and i'm running for it like it's sheriff like i'm staying up i can't sleep because i'm thinking about people getting murdered and you're having nightmares and

i'm having nightmares yeah and uh and so that's when and then i didn't keep i didn't keep my promise to myself of going to the va because i go to fill out the questions and i'm like i still want to be president and i'm like i can't answer honest like i can't yes i'm paranoid you knew you weren't ready you knew you could you like yeah see that's like that'd be one of those things with me i wasn't in the service, obviously, but I'd have to ask, like, what is my fear? Yeah. And at that point, my fear was slowing down because then I'd be, it'd just be me.

Yeah, my fear is me. 100%. Yeah. And so I, and then that's, the campaign's going great. The mayor. Yeah, like I, you know, you don't usually get to run for mayor of Kansas City and talk about it on like late night with Seth Meyers, right? It was unfair. The advantage I had by having already had this platform. So I should have been, and I kept

telling myself, I should be thrilled at this. Like, you know, people always want name recognition. I had like a hundred percent face recognition. People would drive down the street and honk like mayor. Yeah. They're like, I'm voting for you. I'd knock on a door to a voter. They'd come out with my book and be like, you know, with my first book, can you sign the book? It was like, I should have, because I'd never been anything but the underdog until then. I should have loved it, but I was hating life. But did you think like, you know, the big shot, the Democrat machine was sort of like, that's it, kid. He was so close. Now he was going to be fucking mayor. Oh, the headline on CNN.com the day I announced was,

potential 2020 candidate Jason Cantor announces for dot, dot, dot, mayor? Oh, no. So now you've got this whole other weird shame storm on you. And like you said, this sense that am I doing this for the right reasons? Am I acting out of fear because I'm afraid of what's going on with me? And, uh, and so then it all, and okay, really good story. Um, so campaigns trucking along, but I'm not, and I'm increasingly, you know, feeling like a burden to my family and all these things. So this story doesn't start out funny, but it ends funny. So I finally go to the VA and I go in there and of course I'm getting recognized a lot, which in this case, you know, not my ideal, it's not like the best place to be well-known

is where you're showing up because you're suicidal at the VA. So I'm like pulling my hat down and everything. And I sit down with this guy who's doing my paperwork for me and I'm answering his questions. Yeah. And he's like, it seems like maybe you need to see somebody today. Yeah. And I'm like, yeah, I think so. So he takes me down to emergency. I've answered some more questions.

Next thing I know, I'm sitting in this windowless room with like a stainless steel toilet. The nurse is sitting there with her back to me. She ain't leaving. Right. She'll turn her back when I got to pee. But this is suicide watch. Yeah. And I'm in scrubs that are four times too big. They've taken away like all of my possessions and everybody's kind of recognizing me. They're doing double takes, which is, I'm like a little humiliated by it and probably a lot humiliated by it.

And then this psych resident, this brand new psych resident comes in to talk to me. Who's like, I guess he's on duty at the moment. Yeah. And it's pretty clear right away that he doesn't have any idea who I am. And at first, like big relief. And we're talking for like 30 minutes and I tell him my symptoms and stuff that I'd never really talked to anybody about. And then he like, we're wrapping up and he's going to let me go home because I had said I got to go pick my son up. And I think he figured, well, he's not going to kill himself today.

He's got a plan. Yeah. And he goes, do you have's not going to kill himself today. He's got a plan. Yeah. And he goes, do you have a particularly stressful job or something? And I go, well, I'm in politics. And he's like, what does that mean? So I kind of try to explain it. And he goes, well, has it been particularly stressful the last however long?

And I was like, well, yeah. I mean, I was getting ready to run for president, but now I'm running for mayor, but I'm going to quit that tomorrow and start hopefully getting help here. And he goes, he's like, what does that mean, you were gonna run for president? I was like, you know, I was going to Iowa, New Hampshire a lot, giving a lot of speeches, raising money, and he goes, well, who told you you could run for president? And now I'm like pissed that this guy doesn't believe me.

And so I go, I don't know, man, I don't know what to tell you. Like I spent an hour and a half with Obama in his office. He seemed to think it was a pretty good idea. And this dude takes a beat and then he goes, how often would you say it is that you hear voices? And that was my first day at the VA. And the next day I announced that I was stepping back from everything.

And he had no idea who you were? No, I think, but then they let me go home. So either he Googled me or somebody was like you know that's jason kander yeah yeah so something said like oh that's he's not a crazy person that's hilarious i mean he maybe he's a crazy person but he's not that way it's humbling oh for sure yeah so uh so then you pull out of the race like drop out of public life like drop like Mm-hmm. Like, drop out of public life. Like, drop, like, people, I... Dramatic.

Yeah, like, I, and then, like, people would see me out. Yeah. And so I grew a beard and would wear a hat just to, like... Oh, no, so you're doing the whole thing. Well, just because it wasn't even, it was just, like... Small, it's like, but it's a small city, so the people were just, you're like, what happened? Well, yeah, the worst part was that everybody was awesome about it when they'd see me, except everybody, you know, when you tell the world I'm suicidal, everybody feels like it's their job to make sure you don't kill yourself. Sure.

So you're like maybe feeling just perfectly fine and you're picking out like avocados in the grocery store and somebody leans in and they're like, the world is a better place because you're in it. Yeah. And then like you have to console them like, I'm okay i'm just picking out avocados and so that was and so yeah i grew out the beard to look like less like me to be less often recognized but then when they do recognize you like he's really let himself go well it was like the reaction was like that's jason kander he died you know they didn't say that but that's like what it felt like. Like I felt like they were seeing a ghost and then I felt like I had to project like, no, no, I'm going to be okay.

When I didn't know if I was going to be okay. How long did it take you to shake that shit? What'd you do? You did cognitive? Cognitive processing therapy and prolonged exposure, which have you ever done prolonged exposure? No, I don't know what that is. It was, so cognitive processing therapy

is what people think of as like, you know, it's analytic talk therapy. Sure. Yeah, yeah. Having my symptoms explained to me. Yeah, yeah. Like going to school, right? You've done a lot of people have done.

Making different choices. Yes. And then prolonged exposure was the really shitty part, which was sit there and tell the stories I had avoided telling or thinking about record, like with my therapist, record a voice memo on my phone of it. It'd be like 45 minutes. I'd have to close my eyes. He'd ask questions as if he'd never heard the story. And, you know, and I would like re-experience, I would get like, you know, I'd sweat. Approaching houses with Salaam and all that stuff. And like my adrenaline would spike, Really? Yeah. And you go into fight.

Like fight or flight, you go into fight. And then my homework during the week was to put in my headphones, listen to the voice memo I'd recorded, close my eyes. I wasn't allowed to do anything else. And just listen to it and then do it again the next week. And it would unlock other parts of it that I had kind of locked away. So you'd hear your voice and where you were at when you were going through it? Yeah, but also hear myself tell the story,

and then it would unlock other details of the story, and so then I had to come back in and tell it again. That's sort of like EMDR in a way. I think so, just without the lights and the hands. Well, it's sort of like where you're at now with where you started. It's a process of it. It's like you go through the thing. So the actual listening to yourself, even though if you compare EMDR to anything, there's

EMDR people that are like, no, it's a specific thing with lights or buzzers. But in the sense that you're kind of reentering the trauma zone over and over again. That's what I meant earlier when I said you still got to go to it. Yes. And so I would do that. And then over time, I remember the first time that I came in and said to my therapist, his name is Nick, I said, hey, can we do a new story? Because I'm bored with this one. And he was like, great.

Boredom is the goal. Right. And that's when I realized, oh, the whole idea is to no longer have this have a grip on me. And I had been avoiding it for so long. And here's one of the most interesting things was I found out that the reason, a big part of the reason I was having the night terrors was because I spent my whole day trying to fend off all these intrusive thoughts and memories and not think about them. And then when I was asleep, my guard was down.

And so they would all rush in because my brain's like, we're dealing with this shit. No shit. And then when I was asleep, my guard was down. And so they would all rush in because my brain's like, we're dealing with this shit. No shit. And then when I started doing this- Is that your idea or is that what the therapist told you? I learned that in therapy, yeah. And for years I thought, and I even wrote in my first book,

like the way I deal with, because I didn't call it PTSD. I just was like, oh, I got some issues, but nothing. Right. In the first book. And I wrote, like, I just don't watch war movies or movies about kidnapping or whatever. But that wasn't really working because I actually needed to watch those and process that stuff so that at night I didn't. And it turned out, like, once I started doing that, nightmares decreased a bunch.

It's interesting, too, because, like, when you hold it in your brain like that or you don't acknowledge it, it's like the truth is you got through it. So the more you process it, you're processing it from the place of a guy that made it through. As opposed to the guy who's still in it. Exactly. Ah. Yeah. My great uncle said to me when I started therapy, he said- The composer?

Yeah. He said, therapy is just getting a master's degree in yourself. And it was one of the smartest things I've ever said. What do you do with that degree? Anything you want. Yeah? Yeah. He said, therapy is just getting a master's degree in yourself. And it was one of the smartest things I've ever said. What do you do with that degree? Anything you want. Yeah, yeah. You enjoy your life is what you do. Right, right, right.

Most of the time. Well, great, man. And a lot of this is all in the book. Yeah, yeah. So the book is just basically my journey to post-traumatic growth set against the wild adventure of an you know, an undiagnosed psychiatric disorder while you're running for president, you know,

just your standard garden variety coming of age tale. Yeah. Of a young kid from Missouri. Yeah. And, and you know, and now like I work, I'm president of national expansion at this nonprofit that deals with

veterans, homelessness and veterans, suicide veterans. That's hands on man. Yeah. Always busy busy it's a great way for me to do public service and I'm still in politics like I I have a podcast still major we're on a podcast I'm a pug it majority 54 but I'm not like I don't feel like I got a run for office in order to be making a difference like well what do you think about like well I mean mean, you're probably gonna.

I might one day, yeah. And I'm not trying to be cagey. The difference now is I used to constantly, obsessively plan about the future because then I didn't have to be in the intolerable present. And now I'm enjoying the present. And I'm like,

yeah, maybe I'll do that one day. But like, I'm coaching Little League and I'm playing baseball and I'm enjoying the present. And I'm like, maybe I'll do that one day. But I'm coaching Little League, and I'm playing baseball, and I'm doing this work that I care about at Veterans Community Project, and I'm home, and I'm enjoying the shit out of it. And so maybe one day when... One day that party that wants to save the world. Yeah, maybe I can jump back into some world saving. We're going to need it, man.

We're going to need it. Think hard. No pressure. I will spend all this time resting and thinking. Thanks for talking, Jason. Thank you. Jason Kander. That was good. His book, Invisible Storm,

A Soldier's Memoir of Politics and PTSD is available tomorrow, July 5th, wherever you get books. Also, you can check out Jason's nonprofit by going to veteranscommunityproject.org. So listen, folks, we're going to do something new here. We're going to handle this part of the show

a little differently, all right? We're going to do like a little preview We're going to handle this part of the show a little differently. All right? We're going to do like a little preview of what's coming up on the show this week and what people can expect in the new bonus content on WTF Plus. Just hang out. I'll tell you in a minute. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So, no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything.

So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea and ice cream? Yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost, almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details.

It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. rock take on the colorado mammoth at a special 5 p.m start time on saturday march 9th at first ontario center in hamilton the first 5 000 fans in attendance will get a dan dawson bobblehead courtesy of backley construction punch your ticket to kids night on saturday march 9th at 5 p.m in rock city at torontorock.com okay listen to me here's what's going on.

On Thursday's show, Jerry Stahl. Jerry Stahl, many people know he's the author of Permanent Midnight and about five or six other books. He's one of my best friends. He's got a new book coming out called 999 and that's N-E-I-N N-E-I-N N-E-I-N.

Yes, he's coming out with a fun romp through the concentration camps. The subtitle, subheading is One Man's Tale of Depression, Psychic Torment, and a Bus Tour of the Holocaust. Can always count on Jerry for the deep, dark humor. And I don't think we've had the full hour conversation treatment. And I talk to Jerry all the time. We hang out. We eat.

He comes with me. He watches me do comedy. And he's gotten me through some of the most difficult times of my life. And it was great. It was great to sit and talk to him on the mics for the long one. Yeah. So look forward to that happening on Thursday. If you sign up for Acast Plus, we'll have our first bonus content posted, which will be me and my producer, Brendan, giving you some behind the scenes details about classic episodes of the show.

And here's a little teaser, a little taste of me and Brendan riffing. It's not just the common complaint of taking something out of context it's that we didn't solicit that you know that's not what we're doing i mean if that happens which it did with sam elliott it's like i i really thought he was gonna say like i love that movie i i mean i right i it's like i asked him because i like the movie and I felt like, well, maybe me and Sam can bond about a Western. And then like I was like, wow, OK. It was such an innocent question. I could not believe it.

And then all of a sudden in the eyes of quick bait world and the press, it's like I set him up somehow. And I'm like, I did nothing. No. And in fact, we wouldn't want that to be a um a thing we do because it's i'll be perfectly honest it is we we've been told there are guests who won't come on the show now because of that interview so it doesn't help us if you want to come see me live i will be in vegas on friday and saturday july 15th and 16th at wise guys in LA. I'll be at Dynasty Typewriter for two shows, Saturday and Sunday, July 23rd and 24th. I'll be at Just for Laughs in Montreal for my gala on Saturday, July 30th. I'll also be doing solo shows up there on July 28th and 29th.

More to come on those. Then I've got tour dates coming up in August and September in Columbus, Ohio, Indianapolis, Indiana, Louisville, Kentucky, Lincoln, Nebraska, Des Moines, Iowa, Iowa City, Iowa, Tucson, Arizona, Phoenix, Arizona, Boulder, Colorado, and Toronto, Ontario, Canada. Then in October, I'm in London, England, and Dublin, Ireland. Go to WTFpod.com slash tour for all dates and ticket info. Hopefully, I'm going to get Lara Bytes to come

with me on some of those gigs because I got to start tightening it up. Got to start whittling it down to about 70 minutes from the hour and a half, from the 90 plus I'm doing now. Again, please, folks, listen. Listen to me. Spend time with people today if you were thinking about isolating. Okay? Okay? I will play some guitar for you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. BOOMER LIVES BOOMER LIVES Monkey and La Fonda Boomer lives. Monkey and Lafonda. Cat angels everywhere.