WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1346 - Jerry Stahl

Episode Date: July 7, 2022

Jerry Stahl is one of Marc’s best friends. But sometimes you have no idea your best friend lived in a cave at one point. And that’s why you sit down with him in the garage. Jerry talks with Marc about his years of troubled behavior which led to a life threatening illness and doctors telling him he only had a year to live. Marc also finds out more about Jerry’s life as a writer, from his days working for porno magazines to his celebrated books like Permanent Midnight and his new book Nein, Nein, Nein! about self-discovery on a tour of concentration camps. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Lock the gates! all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast welcome to it how are you are you guys all right did you keep all your fingers? Are the kids okay? How'd your dogs recover from the fireworks? The cat's all right? Is your hand okay? Did you treat that burn?

How's your toe? Maybe you should be careful next time when you're outside with no shoes on. What do you think? Right? I'm sorry that your pie didn't work. He said to himself, my pie didn't work. said to himself my pie didn't work yeah i'm talking this is me talking and i i almost lost my fucking mind i you know there's so few things we have control over and it turns out that baking a pie is just another one of those things that we have limited control over i just wanted a pie to just another one of those things that we have limited control over.

I just wanted a pie to work. It was an interesting turn of events on the 4th of July. I don't know how yours went. But here's what. I was invited to a party that I go to almost yearly. I haven't been there in a couple of years because it hasn't happened. to almost yearly we haven't i've been there in a couple years because it hasn't happened my buddy dan gimme gimme dan from gimme gimme records and his wife jen the uh acupuncturist have a party up in uh up up where they live where you can see all the fireworks in the neighborhood

my old neighborhood and it was all it was all gonna happen so i happen to be going through uh whole foods the day before the sunday uh before the fourth of july picking up a few things to make the pie that i was going to bring to the party from from whole foods i text jen and i'm like uh you want me to bring some brisket and i was thinking about this other piece of brisket in the freezer it was just a flat not the whole brisket i thought i'd throw it on just bring it she goes yeah sure and then i bought piece of brisket in the freezer. It was just a flat, not the whole brisket. I thought I'd throw it on, just bring it. She goes, yeah, sure. And then I bought that big brisket. I'm like, fuck it.

I'll bring the whole thing, the full brisket. So the next day, and this is all, I'm coming around here to introducing my guest. Because he comes up in this story and I'll introduce him. And I'll tell you who it is. All right? it's the way i'm going to do it today so monday morning i get up at five and uh you know 4 15 actually the day of fourth of july and i pull that brisket the night before i salted and peppered it. That's all I did. Half and half, salt and peppered it. That's the rub. Next morning, I wake up 4.15, pull it out of the fridge, go back upstairs, come downstairs at like quarter to six. I get the Traeger going, 225, super smoke. And I put the brisket on there and it's in there for about an hour and a half. And I get a text from Jen, the party's canceled. So now we've got an 11 pound brisket smoking in

the Traeger and I got to have a party. I to pull a party together I got to get it going so I I texted uh friends or people that I wanted to come over it was sort of a scramble in a way but the first uh people I text first guy I text is Jerry Jerry Stahl uh my dear friend Jerry Stahl the writer and his girlfriend Zoe I'm like you guys want to come to uh eat some brisket and he immediately was like yeah what time what do you need anything now i'll do this now but uh jerry stalls on the show today one of my closest friends out of the three uh is jerry stall and he's a guy on the with boots on the ground here in la out of my close friends out of my two or three close friends he's my he's my bestie right here in la now i you may

know jerry stall he's written quite a few books 10 to be exact among them permanent midnight i fatty uh plainclothes naked many books he's written for Esquire magazine, New York Times, Vice, The Believer. He's been around, man. Been writing a long time. Television writer, filmist. He wrote Hemingway and Gellhorn, written for CSI. He did work on Escape from Dannemora. That Ben Stiller produced thing. With Benicio and the Arquette lady.

He received an Emmy nomination for that. And now he's got this new book out. 999. N-E-I-N. One Man's Tale of Depression, Psychic Torment. And a bus tour of the Holocaust. Which is a disturbing memoir. As he takes a bus tour to all the major concentration camps. But Jerry is a disturbing memoir as he takes a bus toward all the major concentration camps

but jerry is a dear friend truly one of my best friends i'll talk about that more in a minute but the party i invited dana gould and his fiancee cat i invited kevin christ Christie and his girlfriend Marcel I invited Lara Bites and her boyfriend who I've only met once but he couldn't come but those were that was the core group and I fucking made this brisket I was just going to bring something to a barbecue and I ended up smoking a brisket for 10 and a half hours doing it the Aaron Franklin way wrapping it midway through taking it off putting it in a towel putting it in a beer cooler still stayed hot until people came over i made a chest pie and you know my here's how i know my brain's working pretty well i'm cooking all day long and i notice that you know a third of a cup the plastic scoop for a

third of a cup is dirty i'm like what did i use that for there was no call for a third of a cup is dirty i'm like what did i use that for there was no call for a third of a cup and i realized like oh fuck and i knew the pie looked a little weird the pie was fucked up it was all runny it was fucked up i mismeasured something so the pie was toast the pie was garbage kit cat lady kit obviously came i tell i make this pie for her because she likes the chest pie i like it too but she loves it i was so fucking mad that it didn't come out i can't even begin to tell you how fucking mad i was that it didn't come out can't even tell you beside myself that i fucked it up like that and i just took that opportunity to beat my to beat the shit out of myself and see the world in a negative way that didn't take much work so the pie goes right in the garbage.

She was like, can we still eat it? I'm not presenting that pie. It's garbage. It's garbage. I don't have time to cook another one. So then I reached out to everyone who was coming, bring some dessert. It all worked out.

Everybody came over. The brisket came out perfect. I made a salad as well. And I cooked a big piece of salmon on a plank. And it was fucking beautiful. The brisket came out perfect. I made a salad as well. And I cooked a big piece of salmon on a plank. And it was fucking beautiful. The brisket was amazing. Everybody enjoyed it. Before I go on, thanks to everyone who signed up for WTF Plus.

You can click on the link in the show description or by clicking on the WTF Plus links at WTFPod.com. And for everyone else, I hope you're enjoying the hundreds of new episodes we put in the free feed for future WTF plus bonus material. I want to start doing more listener mailbags. Remember, you know what those are? Listener mailbags. It's,

it's a classic listener mailbags. So send me some stuff, email me, maybe I'll read it and talk about it on the mic. Our email is WTFpod at gmail.com i guess i'm gonna get some trolling but sometimes those are all right so let's talk about jerry can we jerry stall has has been there for me for many years. We've been friends. Jesus.

It goes back now. It really does. I remember when I got here to L.A., I met him at one of the secret society meetings. And I was familiar with him, but I'm like, I want to be this guy's friend. You ever been in that position where you're sort of like,

I wonder if I could be that guy's friend. And as a grownup, that's not easy. And I don't know how long it took for, you know, I was seeing him at meetings. I'm trying to be cool. Cause he struck me that Jerry stall was probably the darkest,

coolest motherfucker around, you know? And I was new in town and I would see him around. I'm like, God damn it, man. I want to be friends with that guy. That guy's got to have some dark wisdom.

And I think I started pestering him. You know, I'd see him, you know, just sitting in the back at a thing. And I'd be like, hey, what's up? You know, and I'm just trying to be cool, trying to be cool. And I don't know where it turned, but we just became closer. And I just started, you know, became around sobriety. And I started calling him and stuff. closer and i just started you know became around sobriety and i started calling him and stuff and and i'll tell you man the evolution of a friendship it's wild it's wild really

because i would have never known you know that we'd be as you know get as close as we've gotten you know because you know we're we're difficult guys he's he's he's not the easiest guy in the world to get to know but it just started to evolve and i'll tell you you know when i got divorced that second time i was at the end of my fucking rope and that guy jerry stall talked to me every fucking day every day after my wife left me there were a couple of people that i would talk to every day he'd fucking talk me off the ledge every fucking day never forget that when somebody shows up for you for real for fucking real man you know when everything's on the line. He's around when I started the podcast. And we had a deal together at HBO

to create a show that we came up with and we were going to write it together. And this was like right before the writer's strike. This is sort of the luck of it all. You know, we wrote this amazing script. I liked it. And poor Jerry, he was at that time still full of the hep C and struggling daily with just the exhaustion of that and the sickness of that. And then the writer's strike hit.

And I just remember we couldn't write nothing. And then he just leaned into writing this novel, The Painkillers. Massive book, almost killed him. I would talk to him, but Jesus, it was almost killing him. We couldn't write the script. And I remember I didn't talk to him about this in the interview, but we haven't really fought. We had one fight where I talked to him with the wrong tone during the process of writing the script.

I just remember, man, he snapped on me so hard. I was like, oh like oh fuck there it is let's not open that door again and but it taught me a lesson man you know it's like you talk to people with respect even when you're aggravated people don't work for you we were working together but we worked hard on that thing and then the writer's strike happened he wrote a novel and when you know the writer's strike ended. He wrote a novel. And when, you know, the writer's strike ended, they changed people at HBO. And we no longer really had anyone in our corner. It just went away.

But that story in that pilot script showed up in the show Marin on IFC, which Jerry wrote with me. Jerry was on several seasons of my TV show, writing for that show. And I don't know, man. It's just he's definitely, I love the guy. One of my closest friends. For sure. Been with me through divorce, like hands-on, and through the death of my girlfriend and through you know just you know day-to-day struggles and then eventually it became sort of a a kind of a a fun two-sided

you know friendship and uh and uh you know get a lot of laughs go out do some stand-up he'll come out with me it's just like you know the years, this was a guy who I met so many years ago. I just wanted to be his friend. And I didn't think I would ever get a laugh out of him. And now we just fucking crack up all the time. And now he's written this great book, this concentration camp tour memoir. And this is, I think it's probably his third time on the show but there was always sort of this sticking point of like i don't know if he ever felt like he got his full episode

and this is uh finally after so many years uh my best friend jerry's full episode and i'm glad we finally got to talk we always talk jerry Jerry and I always talk. It's just like, I know that there was some part of him that was hung up on this idea that the first interview we did was like, it was back when the show had three acts. Then the second one was just a shorter interview to promote, I think, OG Dad.

But, you know, this is the time. This is the full treatment for Jerry Stahl on the release of this book, 999. So listen, Jerry Stahl's book, 999, One Man's Tale of Depression, Psychotic Torment, and a Bus Tour of the Holocaust is available now wherever you get books. And this is it. This is the big talk with my good friend, Jerry Stahl. It's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer.

I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative.

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I swear I will. You're going to put it in a bush and then go, wait, where did I put it? Go put it in your wheel well? I did that with drugs so many times. What? Oh, hiding it? I know exactly which bush I'm hiding this under. Then you go back and you're finding fucking condoms. Yeah.

You know, somebody else. And the guy who watched you hide it is sitting next to you. Yeah, he's having a blast. Yeah, smiling. Doing it right in front of you. Yeah. How's the timbre of my voice in your head? Loud or is it all right?

The timbre is spectacular oh good and uh my lisp is coming through so that's good no you need uh you need that that's what uh that's what indicates you thank you you know i don't i mean i'm in lisp denial in real life but i have one too dude no you don't i do i do so don't have a lisp. I have a lisp. It's a mild lisp, and I roll my R's. Well, that's kind of hot. It's not. If I focus on it, it drives me nuts. I don't even know what rolling your R's means.

I don't do, is it L's or R's? L, la, la, la. I roll my L's, which just means I don't use my tongue for my L's. I don't go la, la, la. I do it for my throat, and I go la, la, la. So it's really a W. So I'm rolling. I'll do respect.

I'm not hearing a W. No, I know. You don't hear it. I've been doing it all my life. I've adapted. But if I was, you know, I'm not going to get any of Sam Elliott's gigs doing voiceovers, I think, primarily. You know, at some point in life, you just got to accept what's not going to happen. Yeah.

You're not getting Sam Elliott's gigs. I mean, there's a lot of things. Shock it up, man. No Peabody's. No Peabody's for me. You know what? What? I think you're speaking too soon with the Peabody.

Oh, fuck. I know a couple people on the committee. Yeah. Yeah. They talk about you constantly. I don't think I would, at this point, because I've gone past the point of like, well, we should have gotten one. I'm okay with it too.

Like, fuck them. I doubt they'll give me a Peabody. Well, it's the experience I've had within both publishing and show business. You know, failing all genres, being my motto. It's like, I fucking love this. But I mean, we would never, ever do this. But I fucking love it. I showed it to my wife. Oh, we would never, ever do this, but I fucking love, I showed it to my wife. Yeah.

Oh, we were laughing our ass off, but I couldn't stop laughing. Are you kidding me? Yeah. Yeah. There's no future for this. Yeah. I mean, and not only that, but are you okay? Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah. That's the one, the sympathy one. I find that when I'm on stage sometimes, I just see people who are too close to the stage who are just looking at me like, oh, it's not a sad thing but it is like if I if I let myself kind of uh get in that moment I'm like you're right you're seeing the correct thing yeah well I'm seeing the close sitters and how they're affected sometimes at the comedy store I'm not feeling that sad last night I kind of ripped it

up last night uh a little bit and uh i i don't know i have found some uh i don't know if it's new courage but there's certainly nothing to lose anymore you know after this uh this uh the uh the tossing out of the roe v wade and what is it the dobbs decision is that what they call it what is it yeah so you know last i just started doing that material about abortion and it was are you are you talking about angel factory yeah the angel factories and and i've added something good but like how do you respond to this uh this roe v wade thing how did it affect you well you know because we're dudes i get that but like it seems to me like i've been saying on stage we've all at at some point kicked in for one of these.

Oh, I mean, look, I'm just going to say that I've done enough. There's actually a seat with my name on it at the Inglewood Women's Clinic. Yeah. You know. So, and, you know, I'm not bragging. Things happen. Yeah. Yeah.

You know. And some of them were probably mine. Yeah. You know. Yeah. I just want to help out. I'm not always a mark. But it's just interesting that there's not a lot of male voices, and myself included.

No, there should be, though. Because there is no bigger proponent for the right to choose than panicky men. No, that's the irony. It's a different intent. It's a different reason. That is the irony. I think we should be at the front of the line in every march because there is an equal. We don't have the same kind of skin in the game, but right. Absolutely there. Yeah, it's just weird when people frame it as a woman's issue. And like, I don't know, lately, I don't know about you, but I've something sort of shifted in my capacity for empathy in general, you know, around. in my capacity for empathy in general, you know, around, I don't know, it maybe had something to do with Lynn passing or whatever, but I'm also able to see women in a more full context

somehow. Like, I can empathize in a way that I don't think I was able to for whatever reason. Well, sometimes life will dropkick you into enlightenment. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's a horrible price to pay when all you're thinking about is fucking them the empathy is limited it's tempered well i suppose it depends you know i guess so like what the feelings yeah yeah what the feelings are but but like i did feel like you know an incredible despair for just the fact that they you know that

more than half the population is sort of robbed of their physical autonomy. Oh, absolutely. And the specifics, the 15-year-old raped by her father, the 12-year-old raped by her bro, and has to carry it and have a kid. And that's it for her life. She's done. But I found myself despondent. And I've been waking up. This is between us.

And I've talked about it vaguely before. But my brain. I woke up this morning with an hour of suicidal ideation. That's why we're friends. Like, I don't feel, you know, like all of a sudden the distance between suicide, thinking about it and doing it, it's not, it doesn't even seem that dire. Do you know what I mean? Like, it doesn't, it's not that I'm like. Do I know what you mean? Yeah.

It's not like I'm planning it, but I'm saying it's sort of like there's just a disposition that's not even fundamentally depressed. It's just. That's right. Like, sort of like, I don't even, I can't even explain it to you. No, it's just that's right like sort of like i don't even i can't even explain it to you no it's like yeah of course yeah it's just a matter of time it's it's not what time is it now it's just it's not drama yeah it becomes like yeah yeah i mean what keeps me from doing it and you know this is one of the few defining rules of my life is you know the blood sprays on a living

yeah so you're fucking everybody you might be out of it yeah although who knows yeah but you know it's just a terrible thing

to do to people the thing is like I always think that it's like I'll be gone but then like the only thing that will you though yeah but the only thing

that hangs with me is like if I'm not going to be gone I'm just going to be a disembodied consciousness. Yeah. That's just sort of like, oh, fuck, now where am I? And what do you do when you're a disembodied, you know, ectoplasmic depressed chunk of consciousness?

I'm assuming I won't feel fat. Can you really assume that? I don't know. If I don't have a point of reference. I mean, I love the cockeyed optimism, but I don't know that. Who said ghost can't? I mean, you know. I don't know if it's a ghost thing.

But it's a feeling. The key word was feel. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, feel. I know. But if you're not looking at yourself and there's nothing to pinch and you don't have limbs or hands. I mean, look at Casper.

He was a little plump. He was friendly, but he was plump. I'm assuming that you're not going to. I'm not thinking there's going to be a body. I don't think there's going to be. I'm just thinking it's gonna be a presence but you're talking about feeling so you're gonna have something so it's gonna be even more expanding maybe all you have left is your sense of grotesque self-awareness yeah yeah and like this is it that's real hell that's real that Forget SART. Hell is other people. All you know. Hell is dying and feeling fat. Exactly.

We figured it out. Yeah. But like, but still. So, but you come from suicide. I come from a guy that never shut up about it. Yeah. Well, different techniques. I mean, yeah.

I mean. Just drag the living down with you while you're alive. So much worse. Because it never ends. Never ends. Yeah. And it's, I mean, the stories you tell

about your father sitting there at breakfast with a bowl of cereal and a gun. I mean, yeah, I mean, look, it's hard to say who wins in this situation. Well, I mean,

at least you've got closure. My fucking dad's still alive. Total closure. It's just like his brain is dribbling out of his ear. Well, that's a whole other issue. Yeah. Yeah, I mean,

lucky me at 16, I had an excuse to feel as fucked up depressed alienated and self-loathing and weird as i already felt yeah but now it's like lucky me i can blame the like garage door and carbon monoxide situation and uh that was your dad yeah i dined down you know i dined out on that baby yeah you know but like did you find him no i wasn't living at home at that point how old were you i was 16 and you're already gone i i had been shipped off to a uh episcopalian school oh really yeah from pittsburgh from pittsburgh yeah same place oliver stone went not to brag couple of the bush kids uh-huh uh yeah and it was weird i never end up there i had never even seen a stereo yeah and it was all these like rich fucks yeah you know oh

really and you know you want to talk about being the only jew we had to go to chapel every day yeah so i just started doing what's cool what you did yeah looking at the stained glass what year is that wow talk about dribbling out of your ears yeah what year was that uh i was uh senior and junior in high school wow so what i don't know if you were born yet i think i think i got out of your ears. Yeah, what year was that? I was a senior and junior in high school. Wow, so what, 16? I don't know if you were born yet. I think I got out of high school. You're only 10 years older than me.

Let's see, high school. 71. I was 16, I think it's like 1970, 71, 32 I got out of high school. Yeah, you're like exactly 10 years older than me. That's right, to the day. Yeah. You're 27th, I'm 28th.

Right, so. That's why we have, you know, we celebrate our birthdays. That's right, yeah, the leap birthday. You're 27th, I'm 28th. Right. That's why we celebrate our birthdays. That's right. Yeah, the leap birthday. You're going to kill yourself? Nah, let's wait another year. Just maintaining the balance. You know what I mean?

That fine balance between thinking about death and doing death. Yeah. Doing it, you just don't. I think I would fuck it up. Yeah, that'd be bad. Well, I think I told you about that story with this guy I met when I was teaching at San Quentin for two minutes.

Yeah. This guy got in a lot of trouble. He tried to off himself. Yeah. Fucked up. Yeah. Blew the bottom half of his face off. Yeah.

And then gets busted for a third strike on weapons possession. Really? Because of the suicide attempt? Because of that. And then does life with like half a fucking face. It's the worst. There's no end to the possibilities.

And there's no guarantee. Of horror. I'm not, I'm not. Living horror. I'm not good mechanically. Yeah, no, no, I don't feel like either of us are gonna do it. I'm just like, it always concerns me

that my brain does that as a soothing mechanism. I mean, that's really, it's like when I feel hopeless. It's almost like it's philosophical self-medication. Yeah, if I feel hopeless, it makes me feel better. Sure.

Yeah, and I guess it's probably not that unusual. No. So when you're at the prep school, which prep school was it? It was called the Hill School. Where is it? Putztown, PA.

My father, well, he didn't make it out the year, but he was living like in Philly half the time. Yeah. And mother was in Pittsburgh and not really getting along with, you know, mom had her issues. Yeah. A little bit of electroshock action. She did that too? Oh, yeah. So you come from, yeah.

Well, I know this. I'm just saying that for the sake of the interview. Yeah. Yeah. And then the battery would like drain, you know. Oh, so the electroshock would work? It would work for a little while and then the battery would run down, you know. Yeah.

Why am I laughing? Because you have to. What else are you going to do. Why am I laughing? Because you have to. What else are you going to do? You know, it's like you have to keep from crying. Well, it's like Hemingway said, you know, the greatest gift an artist can have is an unhappy childhood. So lucky fucking us. Let's not bring him up as a point of an aspiration. No, no.

The guy who ate a fucking shotgun. Isn't that what he did? Yeah, he ate a fucking shotgun because he had had electroshock. Yeah. And his memory started to go. This is shit I wanted to put in that fucking HBO movie. Yeah. And his memory started to go.

And he was supposed to write a speech for Kennedy, of all things. Uh-huh. JFK. Yeah. And he couldn't remember anything. And he couldn't write anymore. Oh, that's what happened yeah yeah well at least they didn't get the lobotomies no I mean my dad had

electroshock like you know in the last in the last five or six years I'm just saying that like last five or six years well yeah there was a period there with the but they do it differently it's not no I think it's much more I don't want to say benign it's not Nicholson. I think they might even put you out to do it. Yeah. I think. I once heard, and this could be mythic, but I once heard that Bernardo Bertolucci did it recreationally. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. Those Italians, I guess. Yeah. You know. I don't know if that's a- Party down. I don't think there's any stereotype there. Did you suck? No. Those Italians. What does that you know. I don't know if that's a- Party down. I don't think there's any stereotype there.

Did you suck? No. Those Italians- What does that even mean? That's so not even applicable. Yeah, like if it were the French, you could kind of maybe get away with it. But you know what? It's fast.

Yeah, well, you know, I was thinking French, you know, because the French- The French, come on. Yeah, mon dieu. Well, what came to mind was, you know, who is the artist that could come just by thinking about it? Was it Cocteau? I think like Cocteau came to mind for some reason. Cocteau. Yeah, Cocteau.

He did that? He could make himself come just by thinking? Yeah, I think that was the guy. That could be messy. But I think it was like Burroughs referenced it. There's a lot of connections. How did I not know that? But for some reason, I don't know.

I guess we could look it up. Like my brain went to Cocteau, Man Ray. Sure. And then all of a sudden, you said that Bertolucci liked electroshock therapy. You know what? I have to give that with a caveat. I mean, you know, I could be wrong. What do you know?

Somebody told me that. Yeah. So, okay. Doesn't keep me from saying it. No. No. So, I don't think I got this backstory. So, you're doing acid at the prep school with the-

With the rich kids. Scions of the American aristocracy. Yeah. Some of them. A lot of them. Is that right? It's one the- With the rich kids. Scions of the American aristocracy. Yeah, some of them. A lot of them. Is that right? It's one of those words I've written. Scions? Scions, scions, cyborg.

I have no fucking idea. But they're the- It's S-C-I-O-N, ladies and gentlemen. Right, but they're the legacy. Yeah, sure. Sure. The kids of the kids. Yeah.

A lot of fail sons. Yeah, yeah. You know, the kids who like get sent there. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I hope it works out. I think Bissell. Bissell. You know, Richard Bissell. Bissell kids. Yeah. fail sons yeah the kids who like it's sent there yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah i think i think bissell you know richard bissel kids you know vacuum cleaner defense yeah you know that combo the the bissel crew they were there crew yeah you knew that guy you knew that kid i knew a bissel

and i seem to remember the nice guy but my memory's a little shaky because i was doing mescaline every fucking day and acid and shit you know in high school yeah where's the mescaline coming in from that seems kind of exotic oh you know we're getting it from uh philly from upenn right because uh if you got the rich kids rich kids are going to get you so you got it from the labs in philly from the labs i don't know where they made it but this is the old timey acid right this was the real timey acid and uh then once i was a senior and all those guys are just like going to college in philly at Penn. Yeah. I mean, forget about it.

Yeah. You know, I would just go out there and stay overnight and come back. Did you do college? I did college, yes. I attended Columbia. Thank you. And dropped out. So that worked out? The prep school helped you?

Oh, yeah. Look at me. I'm an academic. You are an academic. Absolutely. You've done some teaching. You've written some books. I've done a couple things. Yeah. You are an academic. Absolutely. You've done some teaching. You've written some books. I've done a couple things.

Yeah. You know, yeah. But so when you go to Columbia, is that when, so that's 1972? Yeah, it was like the Vietnam War era. 72? Yeah. How'd you avoid the draft? I'll tell you exactly how I avoided the draft.

I didn't avoid the draft. My number was 73. That's back when they had the lottery. Yeah. And it ended that year, I believe, in the 50s. I made no plans whatsoever ever. So you almost went. Well, you

know, there's always the guys who like stick peanut butter in their crack and then get down there and eat it. And act crazy? Well, they get down there and like scoop it out and eat it in front of the guy. How many times did they have to, did the draft board ever see that shit? You know what? They were like, hey, it's another shit eater. I mean, bring it, you you know bring toast what's going on

yeah what is it with these kids here we go with the fucking shit eating we've seen it buddy try apple butter next time I don't know

yeah so I no plan I made no plans and I ended up dropping out anyway for a year or two yeah

going to Europe doing that whole thing being a bartender in London, living in a cave in Crete. I never talk about this shit. A cave? In Matala. There was like, it was like the tail end of the hippie era.

You can't do that shit. Were you long hair? My hair doesn't get long. Uh-huh. It just gets wide and then I can't fit through a door. The jufro. I look like the Ace of Spades. So you go to Columbus.

I have wide hair. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's flat on top. It's kind of the Larry Fong. I have wide hair. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's flat on top. It's kind of the Larry Fong. I have that too. Yeah, mine does that too. Oh, you have great hair, man.

What are you talking about? Well, I keep it trim, but it's flatter on top, and then the sides will bush out. Really? You got the side frizz? Yeah. We should start a band. It's called Side Frizz. So it's the world we encounter.

More aging Jews playing rock music like they mean it. Yeah. Well, they're out there. But, you know, so before, so there was a time where, you know, you were caught up in the times and you were at Columbia and you were like on the road to some sort of artistic kind of within the margins life. Kind of. Kind of within the margins life. Kind of. I remember taking over a building with some sort of nebbishy guy.

And we're in like the dean's office or something. And he sees his file. Yeah. And he opens it. Yeah. They have like an assessment. And it's like great filler material. What do you mean? What does that mean?

That means he's nothing special. But the guy was really depressed. That's what it said, his file? That was their, it's like, you know, you need some of these things. Was that high school or college? Well, that was the college's assessment of him for admission. And they're thinking, we need a little filler material. Yeah, we need one of these guys.

The guys are just in the middle. They're just going to. They're just like, they're not going to make waves. Yeah. Yeah. But so what happened? So you go to Europe when you're at college? Yeah, I dropped out into Europe.

You dropped out in that one year. Yeah, for a while, and then went back and finished fast. Basically, I started writing for The Voice. It's really what I wanted to do, just be in New York, be a writer. I wasn't exactly. Right. Who was at The Voice at that time? Who was at The Voice?

Like Nat Hentoff? Was Nat Hentoff still at The Voice? Still. It would have been the beginning. Guy Trebek. Yeah. Elliot Fremont Smith was my book editor. Yeah.

I don't know what happened to him. And yeah, not great with names. I mean, Mailer started it, but he was way gone. Mailer did? Yeah. And this is what, 73, 74? You know, the date thing, man. You're hitting me with chronology.

No, I know, but I'm just trying to figure out. It's around there, yeah. Because you graduated high school 71 72 i think i think i staggered out of college a year later than i should have in like 76 okay so new york was on the rebound a little new york was pretty intense yeah i mean the 70s in new york it was like the thing on the subways when it's like the wolf pack it's like on the one hand yeah it's a bunch of little kids like 14 year olds yeah on the other hand there's seven it's a bunch of little kids, like 14-year-olds. Yeah.

On the other hand, there's seven of them and they got blades. Right. And there's no way to look cool. Uh-huh. You know, they're going to take your shit.

Yeah. So that happened? Oh, yeah. Yeah. And what about like, so were you doing the downtown thing? Were you hanging out?

Well, you know, it was the punk era. Yeah, it was. For real. I knew a guy, a guy I went to grade school with. Yeah. Who's since passed.

He was the first, first, first, first, first drummer for Blondie. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. And so I would go to CBG, visit some of that shit. And then we did Acid together. And then it fucked him up. He dropped out, worked in like, I don't know, like a garbage can factory or something in

Pittsburgh. And blamed me. That's the kind of business that they had in Pittsburgh. He became like a chemist or something. He was a top dog in the garbage business. Garbage cam business. He blamed you for losing his mind? Well, yeah. But you didn't lose

your mind. I don't know. You tell me. Here we are. I don't think so. But back then, did you know, did you meet Tosh and those guys in that time you know i never met anybody cool in the day i always met people later right and you're like were you at that show i was at that show yeah that kind of thing yeah but i didn't go with the cool people yeah i mean i you know i was in a lot of shit but i was never uh i was never a joiner yeah so punk was happening right i was down there i saw it i saw like patty smith trudging through the east village

yeah fucking big old boots and you can still see that yeah absolutely still does and you don't even know if it's her yeah because there's so many people who fucking great oh my god the hair alone yeah she's fantastic she's like she's out there doing it and you know she means it and she's full of love like really spreading the joy. Seriously. Yeah, I mean, like, you know, you go to her shows and it's uplifting and elating. Like she's like so present. Isn't that what people say when they leave your show? That they feel uplifted?

I don't know. I think so. Some of them say like, what did I say? What did I do? I don't know. Don't worry about it. Or your favorite that I always love. Is he okay?

Is he okay? Is he okay? Should we wait? I don't want an autograph. I just want to see if he's okay. Well, you know, it gets pretty heavy in here, man. You know, I think most of them think I'm okay. Oh, now you're totally okay. Now they wonder if they're okay.

Yeah, but what do you cover in the 70s in New York? Like, what are you doing? I'll tell you. The first story I used to write for the New York? Like, what are you doing? I'll tell you. The first story, I used to write for the New York Press too. This is no longer an acceptable word, but at the time, and forgive me,

this is not an acceptable word. We'll just say there were shows, I think up in the Bronx, a Puerto Rican, we're going to say midget wrestling, little people wrestling. That's not a good word. Wrote about that.

I wrote about, I covered the weird shit it's so funny when you have somebody their first story how are you ever going to forget covering little people

wrestling I can't Puerto Rican little people wrestling very specific very specific was it a cultural phenomenon

with the Puerto Ricans I don't think it was just there were all kind of people there and it was just like wow this shit is going on

I always like subcultures this shit is going down i love subcultures and then i had kind of a i never went to journalism school or anything so i wrote a thing for the voice about confession magazines and uh remember i don't know if you remember the apology true confession oh the cop ones right yeah apology yeah there was a guy who did the apology i know the apology hotline yeah yeah this was confession mags and and i i the woman wouldn't see me, the main editor. So I ride an elevator with her, and I hear her say to one of her co-workers, because I slapped them, my co-workers, the only difference between me and my readers is that my IQ is over 70.

Oh, wow. Yeah. And so I put that in a story. Nice. Quoted her. Fuck her. Oh, no, man. That is not journalism ethics. No so I put that in the story. Nice. Quoted her. Fuck her. Oh, no, man. That is not journalism ethics.

No. I had to go and apologize. I mean, it just didn't even occur to me. That you couldn't do that. That I couldn't. That was off the record. You were eavesdropping. Well, I'm on an elevator with some woman.

I mean, she probably felt safe. And then I'm in there fucking, you know. But she wasn't even talking to you, though. Not even in the slightest. Didn't even know I was there. She did later. Yeah. And then I heard from the editor, do you want to work in this? didn't even know i was there she did later and then i heard from the editor you want it you want to work in this why don't you go apologize really yeah and i had to i did you confessed i i wrote a story you know i uh i eavesdropped on the

editor yeah it's very magazine yeah yeah yeah so that happened and when does that when do you start it's prestigious doesn't it? I mean really ripping the lid off stuff sure. Oh, yeah, there's powerful work. Yeah, but I was going to just realize I think that the little people have been involved in wrestling since the beginning of wrestling There's always been sort of like, you know little people tossing and now that kind of weird Oh, that's a whole other thing that started happen. Remember in the rock videos. Yeah, it was just yeah, that's a whole other level Yeah, I mean these whole other level. Yeah. I mean, these guys had dignity.

But you weren't covering music. They were fucking tough. Did I cover music? I think the first... I wrote about Ry Cooter. I started writing for the Santa Cruz Times, $3 an article. When you come out here, though. When I ended up out there later on.

So when did you go to the cave? When were you living in the cave? Caves. Caves are when I dropped out of college. Didn't know if I was going back. I'm living in a cave in Matala. Yeah. Yeah. Why? Were you homeless or was it cool? I didn't have

a lot of money. It seemed like an interesting thing to do. Were there other people living in the cave? Yeah, a lot of old hippies had been there. So there was a lot of feces if you went too far back. And I remember I was with a bunch of British guys and when they were gone, I looked at one of their journals and he's like, I'm not going to do the accent,

but I read it and said, this weird American bloke has latched onto us, you know, and I felt like an idiot. That was you? That was me. Oh. Yeah.

So there were other people in the cave at the time? Yeah, it was like sleeping, you know, it was a hippie thing. How long were you there in the cave?

I think I was in the cave for a couple of weeks. Okay. All right. And then you worked in, what? I mean, i don't think i qualify as a cave dweller no no no not for a couple weeks you definitely have cave tourists i wasn't getting yeah no absolutely just passing through yeah i wasn't getting my mail there yeah so and then you worked in a restaurant you said uh yeah i worked in london i i ended up uh let's see where else did i live yeah i worked at a place called the Brush and Palate in London, which is where the, you probably don't remember.

There was something called the Profumo scandal. No, I don't know anything about that. Just some scandal. The typical shit involving prostitutes, isn't it? Okay. But the gimmick at this restaurant was that they had a nude woman sitting in front of the diners with like a fake French guy and like the little beret painting him. So I was like a dishwasher.

So I just, you know, got the straight view. Yeah. But then I started, I was going out with the woman who was the model. Right. She was an American, I knew.

Yeah. And, you know, I felt I had conflicting feelings. Right. About her doing the posing? Yeah. I mean, but you know, you live, you learn.

That was the first, that was your, that was the beginning of whatever the fuck you ended up evolving into. Just a stop along the way. It's all about acceptance, Mark. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Acceptance. That's right. That's right. Drinking a little too much. My head was the size of a basketball. Oh, yeah. Because I was working.

You know, then I started working in a bar. Yeah. And you're living on, like, rashers and bangers in Guinness. Yeah, rashers and bangers. And yeah, don't get me started. Yeah. It's all sex with you. But you know the weird thing about that gig?

What? Was every Sunday, all the pregnant ladies would come in to like hammer the fucking Guinness. Oh, really? Because they thought it was packed with iron. Is it? Sure. I don't know what's in Guinness. It seems healthy.

It looks healthier than most beer. Oh, that was the real Guinness. You could put a spoon in that and it would just stand straight up. Yeah, right. That phone. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's easy to be a bartender because there's really not a lot of mixed drinks. Right.

Oh, in England. Yeah. So when does the problem start? You're taking me back. I know. When did the problem start? Yeah. Three.

Four. When mom did the problem start? Yeah. Three? Four? When mom did the enemas? Oh, yeah, we missed all that. That was good. No, I'm just saying, when did the problem start? You were clean. When did your problem start? You were clean inside.

I was clean and sober. Yeah, clean inside by your mom. Well, yeah, it's like you were talking the other day. Was it Ms. Berlant? Is that how you're going to say it? Yes. Yeah, about the colonics. Yeah, the colonics.

Which is really weird. Your mom was an early adapter. Well, it was more like a turkey baster. It was like Harpo's horn. You know what I mean? Yeah. And no lube. Yeah.

But it was weird. When I was over a couple years ago in Poland, and all over like Krakow and also Berlin, all these signs on little billboards like Kolonik. I don't know if I'm getting the accent right. Sure. It sounds good.

Yeah. Oh, really? I mean, can you imagine? It's a craze. Get a fucking German Kolonik? With that, yeah. That's some primal shit. Yeah, with German instructions.

Yeah. I don't understand it. So it all seems primal to me. Auf die Knie. That's the only German I know. Yeah. I didn't even do it right but it's a it's definitely uh kind of uh what was the word i want there's a it's a there's a yeah yeah a lot of that guttural is that what i want it's very guttural yeah um it sounds like the noise is coming if you're like a men's room stall in port authority yeah and somebody's you know having like

an emotional bowel movement in the next one you know yeah a lot of that but when does the uh i know that age three sure i don't know when my i i can't yeah it's somewhere in there but i mean like when did um did you write were you writing for Goldstein or no? I wasn't writing for Goldstein. Uh, I was writing fake sex letters for, uh, Penthouse. That would have been Guccione. Oh shit. I probably read those when I was a kid. My dad used to buy Penthouse. Yeah.

That was me. The fake. I saw my early work. I used to like, uh, Xavier Hollander's column. Oh yeah. Call me madam. Was that what it was called? The happy hooker.

The happy hooker. Yeah. Yeah. But she used to have a monthly column in Penthouse. Call me madam. I believe so. Wow. And it was just, you know, it was a column that I remember reading when I was a kid.

Damn. Because my dad got that shit. Did it get you? Yeah, of course. How old are we talking? Is that some early? I don't know. It was probably 13, 14.

Yeah. It was around the right time to start seeing that stuff. So was your earliest jerk-off material like pictures or reading dirty stuff? I don't even think, I don't know if it was associated with anything. I think it was just associated with the feeling. But when I started to become conscious, it was mostly my brain thinking. Yeah. But then it became, I think there were some pictures. it was mostly my brain thinking. Yeah.

But then it became, I think there were some pictures. Yeah. But it started off imagination. Yeah. And then someone got hold of a porn magazine and was like, oh my God, that's when you learn how everything works. Oh my God, yeah.

And then I got a hold of these fucking, I don't know, Elizabethan and Victorian era era like you know porn like the pearl you know and these weird stories you know like and autobiography of a flea oh yeah what was that about just these weird stories with like everybody was frigging i didn't know what them and it took me like isn't like alexander pope or something i don't know somebody but like it took me like two years before i realized it wasn't public hair. Oh, yeah. It was pubic hair. But isn't this literature?

Isn't the autobiography of a flea? What is that? Okay. It was, there were these paperbacks. Oh, that's right. It is an anonymous erotic novel. Yeah. First published in 1887 in London by Edward Avery.

Nice. I don't know what that means. Well, it might not have been him. No, he didn't write it. He just published it. So that was the first of Dirty Books.

That was, you know, oddly, my first Dirty Books were like in weird Elizabethan English. So you were just writing the fake letters to Penthouse?

I wrote the fake sex letters in Penthouse back and forth. I just go to the other side of my desk and get the answer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. My girlfriend is into scars

and then uh yeah uh the greatest hits and then uh you know i wrote starwood for like beaver yeah i mean i was so naive beavers that was that was a that was a lot of meat in that one a lot of yeah a lot of pain and i remember i was such an idiot. I wrote a story for them. And the guy said to me, don't you want to use a different name? I'm like, no. He's like, you. I'm proud. Trust me.

Because I just wanted to be a writer so bad. You wanted to be Jerry Stahl from Beaver. Yeah, which I ended up being. So it all worked out. It looks good on a resume and it opens doors is what I'm saying. It opens something. i'll say yeah and it's not sesame it's not a uh that was not one of the classier uh uh oh man convenience store porn publications no beaver mag well then i ended up uh i ended up how i got out of new york

to la with a brief three month stop at the YMCA in Columbus not to brag was that I got a gig as like a humor editor at Hustler right doing this thing

called Bits and Pieces where people would send in like pictures of like erotically shaped vegetables from Wisconsin oh really you know

and you'd have to write those dirty Wisconsinites oh my god those cheese head monsters and you know it's a classy gig line. Those dirty Wisconsinites. Oh, my God. Those cheesehead monsters. And, you know, it's a classy gig. And that's what got you here? Yeah.

Six months to the day, I got fired by Paul Krasner. And of all people. What the fuck did you have to do to get fired by that guy? I don't know, but I did it. Huh. I did it. And Larry Flint had got shot. I mean, it was a lot of drama.

When you were there? When I was in Ohio, he got shot. And then we had got shot. I mean it was a lot of drama when you were there when I was in, Ohio he got shot and then we moved out here and you know it Formed some lifelong Association what what what was in Ohio when did that's where that's where he was he started out Columbus So that's remember because we had one party where he invited the whole staff his house and like Beckley Which is this upscale section of Columbus. And in the basement, in a diorama, he had recreated the shack where he grew up,

which I just thought, wow, that's money. That's an ego right there. Wow. That too. Yeah. So when does the dope start? When does the dope start? Well, dope was in and out.

You know, I was always doing shit. Yeah. Somehow in my kind of a late blo You know, I was always doing shit. Yeah. Somehow in my, kind of a late bloomer, late 20s, 30s. Yeah. Again, chronology, sketchy. Yeah. I just strung out. Yeah.

You know, you just realize you fucking strung out. Yeah. And you're shooting dope every day. Yeah. And this was before AIDS. Yeah. So, you know, I'm sharing needles and shit. Like an idiot.

Yeah. We did the little, like, alcohol swab. Right. But, and then I got the Hep C. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, I'm sharing needles and shit like an idiot. Yeah. We did the little like alcohol swab. Right. But, and then I got the Hep C. Yeah. Yeah. You know, I was thinking about that though, because I just watched this Karen Dalton documentary. Oh, Karen Dalton.

She's amazing. What that voice. Oh, she's great. But like she was strung out and I think Tim Harden got her strung out. Oh, really? But, yeah, I mean, it was a problem. But the way they all talk about it, you get these old folkies talking about shooting speed and dope. Well, you're James Taylor you had in the show, right?

Yeah. But, like, I just can't picture it being so accessible and around that, you know, there was just gatherings where people were just hanging out booting dope. Because as it evolved, that became like a shooting gallery situation. But it seems like it was just a regular party, and somebody would pull out the fucking works. Slamming and jamming. Yeah. Because to me, it always strikes me as something that's kind of sordid and fucking creepy.

But I guess it wasn't at that time. That's where it goes i mean i don't know i never had folk parties where we were you know michael rowe the boat ashore you know you you go uh i missed that but like so many movements i just missed it so uh the dope got a little shorter you missed the folk dope parties i missed them yeah it wasn't but they're probably going on i lived in Laurel Canyon for a while. I heard some folk,

you know, but nobody invited me in. Yeah. I was doing the crack by then too, you know. Cracking dope? Well,

I was trying to get off the dope so I thought I'd switch to crack. To crack? Yeah. Smoking the crack? Yeah. But both solitary. Not the best decision I ever made.

Solitary adventures for you? Oh, they were adventures. Yeah. Yeah, that's, you know, that's that story,

you know, where I thought I was getting arrested because I lived in the bottom half of a adventures. Yeah. Yeah. That's that, you know, that's that story, you know, where I thought I was getting arrested because I lived in the bottom half of a house and I'm coming back one night and three in the morning and the landlady's out there like waving her hands and the cop, you know, and the cops have pulled up and I'm like, I just kept going. I didn't pull over. Turned out. Yeah.

Uh, landlord had had a heart attack and he needed a ride to the hospital and you just he bailed and he died yeah and you're and you're you're running i didn't know i was evicted because i never opened my mail until finally she came downstairs why the fuck you know are you still here yeah wow essentially you can that was in laurel canyon you killed my husband yeah i was right across from wonderland elementary so i would hear them sing you know when you're up all night it's not just the birds i had it's kids singing america yeah yeah yeah and it's like oh fuck every day is it five days a week is it eight o'clock again yeah yeah i lived next to a school when i was you know what i'm talking about yeah but i

wasn't i was sober by then but it was right over there. When I first moved to LA, it was right next to a school. It was the bells, the ringing of the bells. Yeah, that's right. All day long, too. I lived next to a place where they built a large building. That was the one I was using. In Somerville, Massachusetts. They were doing heavy construction?

Like pounding foundation. Oh, my. And you're awake at seven in the morning. Oh. And you got that coke head from the night before. Yeah, the night, the worst. The depression is unspeakable. The worst.

And it's shaking the house. Yeah. So you think you got the Hep Cs in the 70s? Well, yeah. Well, probably the 80s. You know, I got it. I mean, the guy I started out with, who I ended up doing like weird movies

with and stuff like cafe flesh and stuff he uh he ended up having a liver transplant which guy's that his name is steven sadian he is a total genius at 21 yeah he sort of did all flint's ads with those weird ad parodies and all those crazy covers and shit real just a great guy but you know um he ended up having the transplant, which is where Hep C goes, but somehow I got lucky because I was also

shooting dope, jogging, and drinking wheatgrass. Yeah. So you've got to balance it. I was covering the water. Like a true Libra, just trying to keep

the balance. Does that make me a Libra? I guess we're Libras, right? Yeah. Just kind of like balancing it. I've never had balance yeah

I mean you strive you strive the guy can dream yeah I mean that's a good example the wheatgrass

and the running and the heroin yeah sure you get a lot of you know people don't know this what

but you can shoot dope and get a lot of energy because you just don't feel you don't feel the fatigue right I wasn't an otter right I was a jogger yeah yeah sometimes yeah and then you know went south well I mean there were a lot of energy because you just don't feel, you don't feel the fatigue. Right. I wasn't an otter. Right. I was a jogger.

Yeah. Yeah. Sometimes. Yeah. And then, you know, it went south. Well, I mean, there were a lot of dudes

that I used to see in the old, when I lived down there on 2nd between A and B that, you know, they're- Oh, so you're doing the real thing with guys lowering the bag

out the window. Yeah. That was next door. Really? Yeah. Wow. But like, there were dudes

that were old dudes that, you know, I think if you maintain your habit, you'll be all right. Sure. But not now. You don't know what you're getting. It's like Burroughs said.

It's not the drug. It's the lifestyle. It's what you got to do to maintain. The crime. Yeah. Whatever. Whatever you got to do. That's right.

That's what gets dangerous. I used to say that about drugs is that as soon as you get involved with them, you kind of exponentially are adding to the possibilities of ways you could die outside of the drug. Absolutely true. And not just die, but fuck up. Right. Because I relapsed a lot. Yeah. I was a guy at meetings like people didn't want to sit next to because they'd get like relapsosis.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It took me a minute to lock in. But like as soon as you relapse, suddenly you lose your wallet. Somebody T-bones your car and it doesn't even seem like you're responsible for any of it. But just cosmically, you know, it's like, fuck you. You've opened this again. You're fucked. You're off your grid.

That's right. And it's just chaos. It's not safe. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. So when... That's right. And it's just chaos. It's not safe. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. That's for the kids. Yeah.

So you come out here for Hustler. But the thing about the Hep C, because I don't think we talked about that, was like, I mean, I knew you when you were dying. We were writing that thing for HBO, and you were sweaty and pale. And it seemed like you were very sick. And and then the writer strike happened of course just another Jerry story where it's like we're close now now writer strike and then you wrote painkillers and it almost killed you yeah well that later down the line I was I was yeah I was clean in. No, no, no, you were clean. But I was dying. And, you know, I was told I had a year to live for a very long time. And you were very sober.

I mean, you were like 15 years sober or something more. Yeah, well, the hep C is weird because the main symptom is you feel kind of hung over and you're super tired. You're sweating. I remember you saying, like, we talked later about, like, the Marin show. It's like, I couldn't hire you, man. you were kind of sweaty and green you were you were sick yeah yeah not a guy you want to be around well it wasn't so much about being around you it was just like i didn't know if you were gonna you know handle it no you can't hire a guy i think

like die you know i don't know if i don't remember but i remember you being sick because when we wrote that thing you pulled out and then you almost killed yourself writing that fucking book, that huge Mengele book. Yeah, that was weird. That was my first brush with the Nazis. Yeah. And that was about- I've been going like deep, you know, rolling like Nazi deep for like a real long time. That was a few books ago.

It was a huge book and it was like Mengele's still alive and he's in Highland Park. But I guess the point being is that now they can cure Hep C if you got the bread, but you were on a drug trial. Yeah. I got really lucky. And you didn't get the placebo. Well, no, because I defied doctor's orders for years. About getting the other stuff.

Yes. What's it called? Interferon. Yeah, interferon. Yeah. I wouldn't do it because I knew somebody who killed themselves. A woman we know from the program had this crazy thing where she like on Mulholland like tried to kill herself. Yeah.

Yeah. Landed on all four wheels in like some like- A pool? Daytime Soap Stars driveway and just had to like get out of the car and call AAA. Oh my God. and it's bad and also it wasn't guaranteed that it would work no it was like 30-40%

so but they kept telling me I was gonna die yeah I mean I paid like 20 when I you know

because I had some dough back then I paid like 25 grand to like go to the Dominican Republic get a bang of like stem cells you did

which kept me alive for like a year really yeah yeah yeah. It was wholly illegal, but, you know, a doctor I was seeing said, well, you know, I know a guy

who knows a guy, but I'm out. And it was really weird. Yeah. You know, when you go to like the Dominican Republic for a day

and come back and they're looking at you, you know, in like customs, not easy. Yeah. Yeah. So I try,

any long story short, I get on this trial drug program at Cedars because i was interfering on that naive and uh i get this drug you want to talk about this is sort of an acid heavy episode but it was like doing bad acid yeah like i would i would drive you know i had tracks yeah because they were taking blood like every couple of days like 20 years sober 15 years over at that point yes Yes. Yeah. But it felt like I was doing badass.

Yeah. Yeah. I would like clutch the wheel and tell myself, the road is solid. Yeah. Because the freeway felt wavy, you know, but it worked. I think that's like on a philosophical level. Is it? Is it solid? It's words to live by.

It's worth pondering. Something, if any one thing is solid, let it be the road that we are walking. But is it? Anyway, long story short, Abbott Pharmaceuticals, they came up short. I think it was so unpleasant and fucked up that even though in like one week,

like it was zero. Really? Yeah. It wiped me out. It was so atomic. Okay. So this was the first- And then you keep doing it for 12 weeks.

But this was the first version of this drug that's now readily available. Yes. Harvoni. Yeah. Which is like, Jesus, I think it's like 900 a pop or something. Yeah. Unless you're in Canada, in which case it's like 12 or something. Yeah.

$12. Yes. Yeah. Not 1,200. So I lucked out. It just fucking cured me. I mean case it's like 12 or something. Yeah, $12. Yes, not $1,200. So I lucked out. It just fucking cured me. I mean, it was a nightmare. Yeah.

But now if I'm like, you know, creepy and sweaty, it's on the natch. Yeah. Yeah. I can't blame Hep C. Did you feel a relief? Did you feel a shit?

Oh, fuck yeah. Are you kidding me? Yeah. Well, on the other hand, because you feel like, kind of like I'm looking death in the eye. When you defy the doctors and don't do the shit they tell you to do. Yeah. And they're telling you you're going to die.

Yeah. You know. But yeah, that's kind of an outlaw mode. But then it was like almost like getting clean. Like I'm now, now I'm not dying. Yeah. Now what? Exactly.

Yeah. Welcome. Yeah. What's your excuse now? Yeah. No excuse. But no, but you did. And I had energy.

I mean, it was wild. It changed everything. Yeah. And, you know, I might be slightly green, but I wasn't like British racing green. No, no. I think you look good. Your whole disposition eventually changed. You went out and had a new baby.

All kind of weird shit happened. But I mean, you know, I got on that medicine. I didn't know my wife at the time was pregnant. And they said, oh, and by the way, if you so much as touch a pregnant woman with like a drop of sweat, the kid will be born with like, you know, antlers and a three-day beard. Wow. You know, it was a total mutant. So she had to, you know, the poor woman had to go, like, move to Texas.

Oh, that was during that? Yeah. Because you couldn't- Because she couldn't be around the meds. You couldn't even hold the pill. I mean, this stuff was beyond toxic, but that's why it worked. Wow.

Yeah. But I guess that the version they're using now is a little more manageable. Well, Abbott didn't get the gig. Oh, really? The Harvoni people, I don't know. Abbott, Abbott didn't get the gig. Oh, really? The Harvoni people. I don't know. Abbott, now they got the COVID test gig.

Yeah, they land on their feet. Yeah, Abbott did. Yeah. I've used many of those COVID tests. It's like IG Farben. Sure, they had slaves making their pills at Auschwitz. Yeah. But you know what? They did okay. Same with Bayer. They came through. Bayer, yeah. Yeah. And also Braun, right They came through. Bear, yeah. Bayer, yeah.

Yeah. And also Braun, right? The machine. Sure, yeah. My coffee grinder. And like, you know, Hugo Boss. Every Bar Mitzvah boy's suit is Hugo Boss. Guess who designed the SS uniforms?

And they were sharp. Hugo Boss. Yeah, man. It never ends. Yeah. So like- I am such a boring font of this. And the great thing about this book, for what it's worth, is I got to, because I don't write in a linear, I got to march out a lot of this stuff.

I love these crazy fucking details. The rabbit holes. Well, I mean. It is indeed a rabbit hole. The first book was Permanent Midnight, right? Mm-hmm. And then it goes on through. Was it Purve of a Love Story?

No, I think that. Or Short Stories. Yeah, maybe. Yeah, I guess it was Purve of a Love Story. Yes, it indeed was. And then Playing Clothes Naked. That's right. That's the kind Or short stories. Yeah, maybe. Yeah, I guess it was Perf of Love Story. Yes, it indeed was. And then Playing Clothes Naked. That's right. That's the kind of noir one.

Yeah, I started- And then iFatty, the genius iFatty. Yeah, which is still soon to never be a movie. You know, but we tried. Another great Jerry Show business story that doesn't quite land. Philip Seymour Hoffman, God rest his soul, was the initial guy. Who wanted to develop. He optioned it first?

Well, Johnny Depp optioned it for eternity. Yeah, okay. So that happened. Well, you need the bread, so there you go. Yeah, I sure did. It all worked out. Yeah. But now it's in development hell, basically.

It'll be in development forever. That's part of the joy of projects like this. But that's a great book because that was one of those things where when you have to do research on something, you'll fucking do it. Like, the way you set up that era of Hollywood was, you know, so meticulous because you were all up in it. Well, this is the grim backstory to that, which is, you know, not to drop names, but, you know, old old pal uh bourdain you know was doing a series anthony yeah it was yeah i think bourdain was doing a series for uh bloomsbury books of like non-fiction sort of like unknown icons yeah so he did one on typhoid mary weirdly enough turned out to be a chef and i i started to do one on Fatty Arbuckle,

but it read like a fucking term paper. Yeah. It was so dry. Right. I mean, I looked at it, it's like, what the fuck is wrong with me? Yeah. So I just threw it out,

and without telling them, I invented like this weird fake autobiography. Yeah. Where he's telling the story, and I got his voice. Yeah. Not hard to do when nobody's ever heard him talk. Sure.

Kind of have a little room to move. Yeah. And, you know, it just freed me up and it just, you know, I got lucky. It's great.

It's a great one. Oh, thanks, man. And then the painkillers, which I swear to God you almost died writing that. Because, like, we couldn't write the script and I would talk to you

and you'd be like, I've been up all night and I'm just writing. I'm so sorry. I can't, like, I'm writing this. Well, we couldn't write because the strike was on would talk to you, and you'd be like, I've been up all night, and I'm just writing. I'm so sorry. I can't, like, I'm writing this. Well, we couldn't write because the strike was on. Yeah, no, it was all happening. But you were, but it was just sort of like this thing that, it was almost like you were racing against death to get this Mengele book done.

I did have a feeling, and it sounds so melodramatic that I never talk about it. Yeah. I really thought, like, I got to get as much down as I fucking can. Yeah. Yeah. I really thought like, I got to get as much down as I fucking can. Yeah. Well, you always write like that though. Well, I do now because it's like I said to the other day, I'm like a lot closer to dead than 40.

Yeah. You know? Right. So soon to be another title. And I like, I seem to have this need to like write with this fucking naked desperation to just keep going. Yeah.

You know? Yeah. And the Mengele thing was weird because I had to live in that. And it's so dark. Yeah. You don't think it's affecting you, but it kind of is. Yeah. But you're kind of that dark to begin with.

Right. So it's, you know. Just researching what he did in the camps? Yeah. All that stuff. What was done. What he did, what happened to him. I mean, he fucking escaped. Yeah.

You know. Yeah. And allegedly drowned in South America. But some say he's still alive. You know, the boys from Brazil. I saw that movie. Nice, huh? Yeah, it's great.

The same kid. Hey, there's that kid again. He did a lot of movies. Yeah. Well, no, he's like, you know. Yeah, it's that kid again. He did a lot of movies. Well, no, he's like, you know. Yeah, it's that kid. It's the Hitler kid. Yeah.

And all these different, and like just, and who was that? Lawrence Olivier as the Nazi hunter, the Jew Nazi hunter. Is your father home? Don't you remember? Yeah, I do. I do. He played Zell in Marathon Man, the Nazi dentist, and he played someone- Is it safe? Yeah.

Is it safe? He played someone based on Simon Wiesenthal in Boys from Brazil. He just covered all the bases. Sure. Zell! That fucking movie's great. Oh, it's fantastic. I love that era.

I love those movies. Yeah, man. Yeah. When he's walking down through the diamond district that's him and he's got the porta blade that shoots out of his right i mean who doesn't want one of those oh yeah there's always uh you know you always want to have one of those when you see your first switchblade you're like where do you get those mexico yeah but all right so then you uh you do other books and do some more books and then you massive non-sellers that i just kept doing but you made the big bread on the on what the bad boys movies you know i wrote a lot of movies or my name's not on you know a lot of those you know bad boys too put my uh put my daughter through Northwestern, which is great. Yeah.

And you work with him for the TV shows too, right? Which one? Yeah, some. I did some CSIs and stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But you know, you reach this weird point, man. Yeah. Where you're like making good dough.

Yeah. And I'm writing script after script. Yeah, knocking them out. And you know, I can never do it casual. I always got to like find a voice and get, you know, it's a little pretentious, but whatever. But then nothing gets made. And you got to make this decision. Do I want to die with like, you know, a great house and cool living room furniture?

Yeah. Or do I want to fucking write some books and actually have a shelf? Right. You know, went for the shelf ultimately. Ultimately. Flunked out of show business or engineered. He held on to the house for a while. Yeah, it was good you know so all right so now i remember when you went on the tour

for of the of the concentration camps that was initially for a magazine article for vice yeah i did a six-part thing for vice not the video this was the the online print. Yeah. Vice. Yeah, they sent me over there. And I did. What was the assignment? The assignment was I wanted to go over there. But, you know, for me, the best kind of travel was when somebody else is paying. Yeah.

So Vice paid for me to go. But the catch was it was a bus tour. Right. Of the camps. Yeah. Dachau, Buchenwald, and Auschwitz. So I'm riding on a bus tour right of the camps yeah dachau buchenwald and auschwitz so i'm riding on a bus yeah for like i don't know 19 days 18 days yeah with uh a bunch of people many of whom who had never seen a jew yeah so that was true yeah uh but you know we are all in the book some of them are in the book loosely based or not named not named. No, renamed. Renamed.

I mean, you know, I'm not an idiot. Yeah. But true, you know, true. Yeah. And it was fascinating because the first night we're there, we're in this like a Kielbasa grotto, some restaurant. And we're going around the table like, well, you know, I've always been interested in the Jews.

You know, I've seen been interested in the jews you know i've seen a lot in the history channel and then there was a lot of hitler's list hitler's list freudian slip fuck me schindler's list then hitler's list yeah yeah yeah yeah uh a lot of schindler's fans and uh some of whom interestingly were more interested in seeing the hotel where the stars Interested in seeing the hotel where the stars of Schindler's the state actual museum Which camp was that that he saved them from that Schindler saved him from which camp was in that movie? That is a great question. I wonder which one I do not know I I Think it was just it was it was an every camp situation Yeah

I mean, you know it was like a camp within a camp for There's a lot of camps that were smaller that you don't even- Yeah, like Sacherhausen, like outside Vienna. Yeah. That's how you say it. That's how I say it. But not all of them killed Jews. No. For example, Auschwitz was a death camp.

Right. But like Buchenwald, they didn't outright kill them. Yeah. You just worked them to death. Right. So it's like, do you kill by like a bullet or putting instantly in the chamber or do you work them to death right so auschwitz was a straight up death camp and an end to mangala experimentation center really that's where he

was that's where he that's where he did you know he sew together. And that's where Eichmann was there. Eichmann wasn't specifically at the camp. He designed the entire program, if I understand. Oh, okay. Yeah, he was a planner. Yeah, they got him. So this is sort of like the arc of this book, which I think is honest, and is that your own self-preoccupation

with your problems as you move through these, you know, Jew-killing... Yeah, one thread is the horrible truth. Yeah, which is what? You want to go and you want to feel this. Yeah, yeah. You really want it. Sure. A, it's like I begin to think that any emotion is unworthy

of, like, what these people went through. B, I got my own shit going on. And inappropriately being a human, you know, and plus you're seeing humanity. I mean, you know, my first day in Auschwitz, you know, there was a selfie situation where these, you know, young, these young girls. I think they're Filipina young ladies. They came running up to like, Grandma, Grandma. And they thought I was Michael Richard. Is that true?

Yeah. So on one level, it's creepy. Let's look at this. Mortified that I look like Michael Richard. I don't see it, but okay. Then B, that I'm even thinking about that. And C, what is the etiquette? They want to do a selfie.

I don't speak their language. Emily Post never covered that. So I just did a selfie as a celebrity who I am not and they were happy and then I go back and the people from my group

are like looking at me like, what the fuck is wrong with you? Have a little respect. Yeah, but you know the selfie quote, everybody was doing selfies. Well, yeah, that's what people a day they had to put a sign up like you know no Pokemon Oh in Auschwitz yeah one of them yeah yeah that's so that some people were wandering around looking for

like ratatat ratata whatever the fuck it is it's just but then you realize well you get there and you're you're going for this emotion and it is there. You've seen the pictures. But then the first thing you see is the Auschwitz snack bar with these people dressed for fun day at Orlando Disney World having a slice and a Fanta. Right. They have that there. They really have pizza at Auschwitz? They have pizza.

Pizza at Auschwitz. Alternate title. I mean, I imagine at these places, they all have to have some, they are memorials to some degree. They're museums. Museums. Okay. Okay. But you were on the place where the crime happened. Yeah.

You know, you're essentially, you know, trudging around a crime scene. And I always had this sense this one of the biggest yes yeah but you know we you know america's found that on a crime scene so they're they've always been here um yeah i just i think the scope of it like i i also think that there's something about and i think the book speaks to it a little bit that there it is impossible to wrangle, you know, uh, uh, an empathy that wouldn't kind of destroy your entire, uh, sense of, of morality. Yeah. You know, that that's, that's a good way to put it. Cause it's, it's so overwhelming and, and your brain when presented with something like that is just gonna, you'll want to focus on your own problems or on pizza or what's immediately going

on. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's how do you meditate on? That's exactly right. And it's so profound and so real and so soul crushing, but I got off the bus and I really had to pee.

Yeah. And you can see the guys on the tour buses of a certain age, the prostitutes, you know, just making a beeline, cutting right in to like the Auschwitz toilet where I had one of my first of many revelations where it seemed like the only thriving industry in Poland were like toilet attendants. Oh, really? They were there? Yeah.

I didn't know if you paid on the way in or the way out. Oh. It's a tip. And usually it's after you wash your hands, I think is the etiquette on that. Really? Yeah, I think so. I thought I had to pay to get in. Oh, well, that's interesting.

Maybe you did. I don't know how it works there. You know, I'm surrounded. You know, what I did was I got pea shy. Oh, yeah? So I couldn't go at that one. Why? The guy was standing there?

Did you think you didn't tip him enough? I don't know. You know, it's like I just kept thinking, like, if there was no Holocaust, this guy wouldn't have a job. Uh-huh. You know? The pea guy. Yeah.

And is he like third generation, fourth generation? You know, did his great-great-grandfather hold Himmler's helmet? Yeah, maybe. Well, there's that. I mean, those are good questions, too, about the legacy of the whole thing. Like how many generations back? Who was part of it? Are they still here?

Well, it's funny you say that. And this is something that I experienced. And maybe you've experienced if you've been to Germany or Poland. I haven't. this is something that I experienced and maybe you've experienced if you've been to Germany or Poland. I haven't. You're like having breakfast at this buffet and looking at some 95 year old bulbous nosed monster who's like giving you, I feel like, is he giving me stink eye? Sure. And there's no way not to think, like 70 years ago, 80 years ago ago when this guy was a teen he was like bayonetting Jewish babies yeah you know and could have been it's impossible not

to think that so it's a if you're a paranoid it's a great place to be the Jew killing countries because you really feel like you know any of these guys you've never felt more Jewish absolutely well it's like my grandfather used to say if you ever forget you're a jew yeah a gentile will remind you yeah and it is never more powerful and profound than out there yeah those are the worst kind of gentiles the nazis i think that's established well as people used to say about george wallace at least you know where he stands yeah no was there something that that was like there were moments because i remember in the book there's definitely moments where you you actually felt um what you're supposed to feel oh absolutely and then and then by judging by all the research you did and the rabbit holes you're in and also, you know, what seems to be happening in this country, there does, the possibility of it seems a little too possible.

Yeah, it's actually and painfully true. It was right, you know, in the dawn of the Trump era. I know. So it felt less like visiting the past than visiting the future. Yeah. You know, with Jews will not replace us, you know, the proud, but the whole upfront in your face, Trump released anti-Semitism. I mean, he's just a symptom.

Yeah. But, you know, thanks to him on some level, this shit was unleashed. And here we are. And, you know, whether it's from row on down, the Christian nationalist state is fucking here. Yeah, it's well underway on state governments and now the Supreme Court. And then just kind of radicalized grifting motherfuckers that don't give a shit. And large corporate business interests that don't give a shit. Yeah. But you know what?

Guess who made a lot of money, too? The fucking Nazis. Yeah. I know. You know, they were grifting. They were stealing shit from all the apartments and houses they took over. And they got all that art, stored it in a fucking salt mine. Well, what the real question becomes is, like, when does othering become murderous?

Do you know like because you know if in the sense of because you think about like well people are people are so capable like when you look at pictures of lynchings yeah there's a hundred fucking white people standing there posing kind of smiling it looked like a picnic i got a postcard once that i bought somewhere and it was uh it was showing you know the guy guy's smiling and waving and it's so grotesque. But guess what? That could totally happen now. Well, yeah, we're just like groups of people just kill people. Well, you know, that's the interesting revelation I had that I didn't know I was going to have, which is like the Holocaust is not the exception.

Yeah. The Holocaust are the rule. And, you know, be grateful you're living in a time between because the axe is always falling. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's a nice way to go out. It's uplifting.

Like to leave you feeling positive. No, I love the book, and I'm glad we kind of got the whole thing going, got the big piece, the big talk. I think we covered it. Do you feel good about it for now? I couldn't feel better. It's so great talking to you.

It's good to see you, man. Good to see you, man. There you go. 999, one man's tale of depression psychotic torment and a bus tour of the holocaust it's available now wherever you get your books all right so all right look here's what i want to do right now i want you people to uh to hang out and And if you do, you'll hear some previews of what's happening next week on the show and some other closing thoughts

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Visit cozy.ca, that's C-O-Z-E-Y, and start customizing your furniture. Okay, look, here's what's happening. On Monday's show, I've got Naomi Ekparajan. I met her once when she was guest hosting Two Dope Queens. I believe I was on the show with her, and that's where I met her. But then I kind of knew her from her stand-up. She was a writer on Broad City, totally biased with Kamau Bell.

I never really had a long conversation with her, but I knew her and we met. And so that's going to happen. That's going to happen on Monday. You can hear me talking to Naomi at Parajan. It was nice. It was a good talk. I enjoyed it. Today, I interviewed Orny Adams.

Now, many of you know that i have a weird history with orny adams and um i i don't know if it was resentment but i've been awfully hard on him because he you know he bothered me it was just a personal thing there was no foundation for it it was not uh you know based in anything that he deserved but i've been a dick to him for decades and i'm like all right well let's i should talk to him it's time to talk to him so it turned out to be one of the the great uh the great kind of comic conversations that this show is built on if you you don't know Orny Adams, many of you might know him from the documentary Comedian

about Jerry Seinfeld. Orny was the annoying guy in that, kind of the villain of that documentary. And we talk about that and the impact that had on his career and people's impression of him. It was heavy, man. It was heavy because he didn't know what to expect. He knows me and he knows, obviously he's not completely so self-involved that he wouldn't know

that I was kind of a dick to him, but he showed up. He showed up and I knew he would. Why wouldn't he? Huh? He didn't know what was going to happen but he showed up so that's coming up it's something to look forward to if you like what this show is next week for WTF plus subscribers we'll be playing part of my town hall show from last November that was a big deal that was a show that I put together

the new hour that I'm working on now that was the first big shot of it. I got the New York Comedy Festival. I got the gig to perform at Town Hall and I set my sights. I'm building a new hour post COVID, post Lynn's passing to perform at Town Hall to do it there. And I did one show there and I'm going back there this December to shoot my HBO special. So I'll be at Wise Guys in Las Vegas, Friday and Saturday, July 15th and 16th. It's next week. I'm back at Dynasty Typewriter for two shows, Saturday and Sunday, July 23rd and 24th. I'll be at Just for Laughs in Montreal for my gala or gala, however you want. On Saturday,

July 30th, I'll also be doing solo shows up there, July 28th and 29th. They haven't been advertised yet. Then I've got a lot of dates coming up. I've got dates in August and September in Columbus, Ohio, Indianapolis, Indiana, Louisville, Kentucky, Lincoln, Nebraska, Des Moines, Iowa, Iowa City, Iowa, Tucson, Arizona, Phoenix, Arizona, Boulder, Colorado, and Toronto, Ontario, Canada. Then in October, I'm in London, England, Dublin, Ireland. You can go to WTFpod.com slash tour for all dates and ticket info. Now I'm going to do something I don't usually do. I'm going to sing a song. And I'm allowed to because it's public domain.

It's also one of my favorite songs ever. I just love the melody of it. It became sort of a, I think kind of a protest song at some point. I think it's a spiritual song. Historically coming out of the slave spiritual tradition i believe and uh i just it the taj mahal and raikuta covered it and i just love it so here's a few verses of it 🎵 I shall not, I shall not be moved I shall not, I shall not be moved

Like a tree planted by the water. I shall not be moved from on my way to heaven. I shall not be moved on my way to heaven, I shall not be moved. On my way to heaven, I shall not be moved. Like a tree planted by the water, I shall not be moved Oh, preacher I shall not be moved Oh, preacher

I shall not be moved Like a tree planted by the water. I shall not be moved. I'm sanctified and holy. I'm sanctified and holy I shall not be moved Sanctified and holy I shall not be moved Like a tree planted by the water

I shall not be moved I shall not, I shall not be moved I shall not, I shall not be moved Like a tree planted by the water I shall not be moved