WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1357 - Christina Ricci

Episode Date: August 15, 2022

Christina Ricci grew up around enough chaos to make her want constant control. Which is why the show Yellowjackets is such a different experience for her. As Christina tells Marc, she decided to surrender knowing anything about the direction of the show and its characters, and that lack of control is infused in her performance as Misty Quigley. They also talk about what Christina learned from Cher while making her first film, the much-loved movie she can’t stand watching herself in, and her long-time-coming partnership with Juliette Lewis. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series. FX's Shogun. Only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that.

An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series, streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Lock the gates!

Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucknicks? What's happening? Huh? What is happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast.

I want to acknowledge a lot of the feedback I got last week about talking about sobriety. And look, I can't answer all of your emails, but you're welcome. If you got anything out of this show that helped you stay sober for even a day, I'm grateful to be of service. I don't feel that I am of service enough in the day to day. You know, sometimes I don't feel that I attend enough meetings. Sometimes I don't. I'm always in touch with sober people. I just I went to a thing the other night.

My buddy Jerry gave me a cake, as they say, in the biz, in went to a thing the other night. My buddy Jerry gave me a cake, as they say in the biz, in the racket, in the secret club, in the secret society, the Illuminati. It was good to speak a bit at one of those things. But look, any way that I help you, I am happy to hear about it and I'm happy that it has that effect.

So you're welcome, all of you that reached out after that. I appreciate hearing from you. Today, I'm going to talk to Christina Ricci. It was interesting. Like, I watched that show. I watched all of those Yellow Jackets in order to prepare for talking to her. I've seen her movies, obviously, many of them. She's been acting professionally since she was eight years old. And a lot of people remember her from the

Addams Family movies or when she got older from movies like The Ice Storm and Buffalo 66 and Monster. Monster, right? The latest show is a Showtime series I just mentioned, Yellow Jackets. She just got an Emmy nomination for Outstanding Support outstanding supporting actress in a drama series so she came up and we we got her and i talked to her and it was great it was actually uh nice to meet her nice to talk to her new tour dates for november and december this is me my tour oklahoma city at the tower theater wednesday november 2nd dallas texas at the majestic theater thursday november 3rd san antonio at the Tower Theater Wednesday, November 2nd. Dallas, Texas at the Majestic Theater Thursday, November 3rd. San Antonio at the Tobin Center for the Performing Arts Friday, November 4th. And Houston at the Cullen Theater at Wortham Center Saturday, November 5th.

Then Eugene, Oregon at the Holt Center for Performing Arts Friday, November 18th. And Bend, Oregon at Tower Theater Saturday, November 19th. And in December, I'm in Asheville, North Carolina at the Orange Peel Friday, December 2nd and Nashville, Tennessee at the James K. Polk Theater Saturday, December 3rd. All of those shows will have a presale this Wednesday, August 17th, starting at 10 a.m. and going through Thursday. The password is time, T-I-M-E. Go to WTFpod.com slash tour for links and information.

I'll be in Lincoln, Nebraska on Thursday. Des Moines, Iowa on Friday. That's this week. Iowa City on Saturday. Go to WTFpod.com slash tour for tickets to those dates. I'm excited. dot com slash tour for tickets to those dates i'm excited i got an old friend in uh lincoln i don't know if he's still alive i don't know what condition his mental health is knew him years ago back in the day had some good times then he became a somewhat peculiar anti-semitic farmer see if he comes to the show to tell me about the soros colossus that holds the world in its hands uh the cats there's been a change uh in the story it seems i was really anticipating a a sort of ongoing revelation and drama with the cats under the deck, but the mommy cat

has moved them all. I don't know where she took them. I don't know what made her take them, but they're gone. She's been coming around a bit to eat, so they can't be far. I've looked around. I don't know where they are. The neighbor next door here, the woman who lives next door, is also feeding the mother cat and also looking for where the kittens are. I don't know if they were all eaten by coyotes. I don't know if she moved them because something spooked her. They were very safe under the deck. But all I can say is that drama is over. And that story ends here until they either resurface or I don't know. I haven't seen the mother today. But in relation to that, I'm happy that I took the one kitten because we've got a kitten that looks like it's going to be living with me.

My kids got it now and is nursing it. It's three weeks old that I took from under my deck. Not under the deck, under the stairs, because the mother, I guess, was moving them and left this one sad little guy. And I took him at two weeks old, and we've been nursing it back to, or not back to health, it was healthy, but we've been bottle feeding it, and it's coming around, and it looks like it's going to be Charlie Roscoe.

I've given him two names, Charlie Roscoe, because I'm not sure whether I like Charlie or Roscoe. I'm leaning towards Roscoe today, but I also like Charlie, and then I'll have Buster Sam and Charlie, or Buster Sam or Roscoe. I'm leaning towards Roscoe today. But I also like Charlie. And then I'll have Buster Sam and Charlie. Or Buster Sam and Roscoe. But Charlie Roscoe is doing well. I'll move him over here. Soon.

And look. It just keeps going. I've been looking back at my many lives. I have many lives. and i really do think i'm starting to feel like look i obviously i've i've had one life and i've been the guy in that life but if you've moved if you've lived in many different places and there's many different homes that you've had and different elements or different parts of your career. You're a different place.

We're all in different places. But, you know, between Boston, New York, San Francisco, Los Angeles twice, New York twice, the different communities I was involved with, the different houses. It's gotten me going through and I've gone through calendars before. I did a little of that on Instagram over the pandemic. But I pulled my calendars out to kind of do what I did with my dad. I don't know if you listened to that. We have bonus material now. If you get WTF Plus, there's bonus material.

And one of those was I brought a bunch of pictures I found from my dad's childhood that I brought to him. And he's got the beginning of dementia. And I showed him those. And it was kind of interesting to see what he was able to you know he remembered a lot of it so now I've uh I went through my 1991 calendar and just to go through the dates of where I was and what I was doing and what I can remember what I can't remember it's sort of fascinating because it's almost it really is was an entirely different life

and I really don't know sometimes how that kid made it through doing what he was doing but i was fucking driven man and i still have the habits it's it's wild you know looking back at those dates and just seeing you know doing five six shows a night in new york just scrambling i, every night of the week doing at least two sets of comedy. And I still have that work ethic around stand-up. Yeah, I'm going to do that for bonus content. If that is incentive for you to get WTF+, I would do that because I think I'm going to do it a bit

because I have a lot of those notebooks. I'm going through all kinds of stuff because I'm starting to realize that, you know, getting older and the contraction, you know, what I think is a natural contraction of ego or something that you get to a certain age where you don't hit a wall, but it's almost like you come out of a trance and everything becomes very present and very immediate. Like I think this sort of arc of youth and the sort of drive that you have on all levels, you know, whether they're delusional out of necessity to sort of keep doing what you're doing. really engage in a life in the arts have to be willing either consciously or without really thinking about it to make a lot of sacrifices around security, around family, to choose

a sort of selfish life of expression, whatever yours is, requires a certain delusional disposition. So I don't know if this trance thing applies to everybody, but there is an element once you hit a certain age where you've just come out of this trance and you realize like, okay, well, here I am in the present, in this life. I don't have that much time left and everything is painfully real. What do I do now? And kind of assessing and taking an inventory of what you have in your life and how much is necessary, I think is important. And also nostalgic and weird. There's a box upstairs in this garage of stuff that I wrote and did for publication. I don't have hardly have any recollection of it.

So I'm going to kind of put together those parts of my life, try to get rid of as much as I can. I don't know how to have a garage sale but i don't need a lot of the shit i have i'm gonna purge i don't know man we're all in the fucking death throes of some sort of baby boomer ego problem i mean jesus christ there's so many dudes you know original boomers it's just like the death throes. They refuse to have the contraction that will pull them out of the trance. And they're just flailing and screaming and yelling and bellowing, addicted to thinking that they may be relevant entertainers, politicians. The world is ending because of the inability of the first generation of baby boomers

to let their egos contract normally be released from the trance and do what's necessary to stay alive with a certain amount of humility if those were the people that would just get off the fucking stage already so christina ricci uh is in this uh yellow jackets show on showtime season one is currently on demand she's nominated for outstanding supporting actress in a drama series at this year's emmy awards and uh this is me talking to her. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life.

When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming february 27th exclusively on disney plus 18 plus subscription required t's and c's apply With work on your house, my problem is, like, you commit to it, and then they're like, yeah, it's going to take about a year and a half. Yeah, and then if they say that to you, you know it's three years. Three years. And I'm like, it makes me anxious. Yeah, I don't know. I just want to move someplace and have it be perfect and not have to worry.

Yeah, until it starts breaking down on its own. Exactly. I'm happy to maintain. I don't want to create my own dwelling. Yeah. When I lived in Highland Park, I had an architect draw up plans to redo the house a little bit. There was a beautiful, weird old bungalow, less than 1,000 square feet. And he made a new house.

Like, he designed this whole new house. And it was going to take a year and a half at least. And I just, I was like, I can't. I can't do it. No. Yeah. That's too much. well what's it what's the dream house where would you like to live i mean my dream has always been to live in malibu oh really i really like the ocean yeah that's a lot of ocean that's like everyday ocean that's like uh you know isolated ocean well but i mean i'm i'm fairly i'm fairly isolated anyway like i never go i don't go out

very often and i i have people people come to the house yeah that's what i do like malibu people will come to your house sure you better get an extra room they'll stay there for a few days that's fine they can help watch the baby but uh so this uh this show you're on i don't usually start with the shows but uh but but like uh you know i didn't know what it was so i'm like i better check it out so i can talk to her and i watched a whole series oh good but i was hoping for it to just have closure at the end but i didn't realize i was watching a first season i get very used to uh watching limited series so i'm like this will resolve itself and now i'm like oh fuck no what to happen now? It's a lot more people involved in this, apparently.

Yeah, there are going to be more people. I don't know. You don't know? No, I found it really, I find the whole thing with TV where you have to have a certain job title to have all the information. I find that to be, I found it to be frustrating for the first season. Yeah. So I have decided to not allow myself to be beholden to what my character does or needing to know and any of that stuff so that I will just not be irritated by it. So I don't even ask anymore. Oh, as to what's going to happen? Yeah.

Well, most of the time, I don't know. I've worked on shows in that. Maybe they don't know. Well, that's the thing, too. They also don't know, I've worked on shows in that, maybe they don't know. Well, that's the thing too. They also don't know. But I just mean, you know, as an actor on these shows, you're not involved in that aspect of it. I know. So I found it easier for me, because I have also been an EP on shows, to just for this one, be like, I'm an actor.

I am going to learn how to do this with limited information. Because I can't stand feeling like I can't do something. Right. Or being annoyed. Right. Being annoyed is the bane of my existence. So my whole life is avoiding that. So I'm going to learn how to just be good at this so I don't even ask anything.

Annoyed at not knowing? I guess so. Yeah. Or you get attached to your ideas of what should happen, and then they're not the same, and then you're annoyed at like, oh, my idea was so far. Right. I don't want to have that. I want to just be like, great, so I'm the actor, and this is what you're telling me to do,

and sweet, I can do it. So that's it, and that's the work for you right now. For me, as a TV actor, this this is my challenge it's not to say wait wait can i just ask some questions about what you why you did this this way i need to be completely autonomous be able to figure it out and just do my job yeah i uh it's hard but it's a relief if you can do it exactly and i feel like it'll be so great and freeing when i'm like i have no there's just no issue. I think the way to do that is realize like, well, you know, this is, it's not all hinging on me. Do you know what I mean?

That's the other thing. I did start doing that because it's such an ensemble piece. Right. Right. Yeah, a cog. I'm just a little piece of this, right? And, you know, like whatever my big ideas were, it's like, why get involved? Exactly.

One, why get involved. And two, also realizing that you are a cog. Everything that every character does has to serve the story. Right. And so it's so different than being a film actor because we get to just be like obsessed with our characters. Right.

But once you're involved in this, you just have, it's really about letting go of ego, I guess, at the end of the day. Right, and just being like a worker. Yeah. yeah you know no matter who you're working with and i i don't know like i i've i've only had an experience when i was doing my show on ifc where where i had somebody who was a pain in the ass once an actor and and like wouldn't get out of their trailer because uh you have a food problem i'm like really fucking people? Fucking people do this? Like, they're not.

Yes, they do. I've seen it quite a lot. I don't understand. Like, what is wrong? And it's always the, you're just like, really about food? It's always something really unflattering that they're waiting for. Yeah.

Find something else. Yeah, or they're late and they don't, I don't, I really don't. On some level, like, I have a hard time with acting because I just did this thing in Canada where I shot. It was three days, and there were 14-hour days, and I swear I worked two hours of each day.

And it drove me fucking nuts. That's what drives me nuts. It's not being on set and making decisions. If I'm asked for a suggestion, I'll say something. But just sitting around in the trailer, I don't care how many books you have or what your phone is doing. It's just that sedentary shit. That's the whole job is handling that. Yeah, it's a lot of time managing

and managing your own brain. What do you do? Well, I produce as well. So I generally will have a lot of material to catch up on and I look for IP and stuff. So you have a production company? I do. So you're constantly getting pitches, ideas, scripts?

No, no, I find stuff. You find stuff? People don't come to me. Oh, really? So I have a couple things set up that are based on pieces of IP I've found and stuff. Oh, intellectual property. Yeah, sorry.

So you're just poking around? Yeah, searching. Like just stuff that interests you? Yeah, I mean, I found some sort of obscure true crime and some other sort of like Hollywood lore stuff, articles and things like that. Well, I mean...

Hollywood lore. Yeah, we're going... Yeah, I have something and we'll ultimately be pitching that. Okay, well, you don't want to blow up, but you like the old

Hollywood shit? I mean, I like a lot. I have a lot of different things, but, you know, I'm... Yeah, I generally... Yeah, and this piece is sort of... It to like the, obviously everyone's obsessed with the darker side, the seedy side of Hollywood.

Right, yeah. But also speaks to the sort of competitive female relationship that existed. Oh, really? Dynamics at the time. It's like the 30s, 40s. Oh, yeah? Yeah, it's weird. You realize when you watch

those old movies, like these people, you know, were just like us, horrible actor people. Yeah. Terrible. And the business

was even smaller and more competitive and weird. Yeah, it's really weird. Yeah, and no one had access. Yeah, because no one had access to it.

It wasn't like today where everyone's up your ass. Right, it was just a couple people who controlled everything. Right, and then there's like these fix everyone's up your ass. Right. It was just a couple people who controlled everything. Right. And then there's like these fixers that cleaned everything up. Those are the fascinating ones to me, the fixers.

Yeah. You know, the people that work for the studios and just sort of like, all right, leave. We'll take care of the body. Get the press out of here. I know. It's terrifying. Yeah. Yeah.

It must have been a really frightening environment. Nice houses, though. Yeah. Beautiful. And if you can make it through, really worth it. Yeah. I don't know what happened to a lot of those old actors. And I guess it's all sort of the same. So wait, so now you're on set and you're not going to like, you know, you're just going to work. You're just going to be an actor. No, but it's not like that. I mean, I am also, you know. No, I get it. But like, I was just trying to get back to that because like,

there must be something also rewarding. I mean, how is everybody you're working with? I mean, I am also, you know. No, I get it. But like, I was just trying to get back to that because like, there must be something also rewarding. I mean, how is everybody you're working with? I mean, I've interviewed Juliet and I've interviewed Melanie. I don't know Tawny, but I was like audibly laughing at you. And no, it's a funny character. No, it is. It's really the dynamic between you and Juliet is hilarious.

And I don't know if they knew that, but there's just something about the two personalities. Like you're a control freak and she's like, bleh. And it's funny. Yeah. No. And we fell into a really fun dynamic as well that I think carries over into the scenes. She's a lot like me as an actor, just very reactive within the scene. you know she's a lot like me as an actor just very reactive within the scene so we ended up doing things that were very that that i think then informed the the writing for yeah for future

episodes so they were writing as you were shooting well i mean yes yeah yeah that's good yeah that's always good because they don't know what they're going to get out of a cast and if they can sort of maybe just adjusting i'm sure they have their scripts. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's good that they can see how you guys kind of- And what was the process of aging the younger actress? I mean, did you start with her performance or did you guys do it together? We kind of did it together. I mean, we- What's her name?

Samantha Hanratty. Yeah. We met before the season, but just once for lunch. And we discussed the references she'd been given versus the ones that I'd been given. And because that I feel like that's really informative because they were giving her this like incredibly bubbly, vegan, animal loving. Really? Like, just like exuberant and I am the opposite. And so, by looking at the different references we were being given. By references, you mean what? Movies, other people's performances.

Oh, okay. Things like that. Yeah. It gives you a better idea of in general what they kind of want the overall character to be and then she and I discussed sort of

how she would be playing her and then how I would be playing the character based on the 30 years of basically like squeezing

of life in between so that was it and then you know people keep bringing up that our gestures are very were very similar

but we never rehearsed or practiced. And you didn't get to watch her performance before you. No, we would watch. We would do Zoom script read-throughs. Okay. So I would hear her. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or, you know, see her perform that.

But the physicality we never saw. But I think that just speaks to really the strength of the writing and the strength of the characterization in general. So what references were they giving her? She got once like, welcome to the dollhouse. Okay. Yeah. And I don't want to overstep by speaking about someone else's character, but they sort of spoke to more of like a blankness in the personality when she was younger. And then, so that was helpful for me because then I was sort of like,

oh, okay, then we can literally color in. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And what were your references? My references, well, they didn't give me any film references. Okay. But we talked a lot about different things. And one of the characters that we talked about

in the beginning that I was so intrigued by was the, oh my God, Sheila from Wild Wild Country. Okay. Documentary. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And this idea of like how she's adorable, that woman. Yeah. Adorable, but so full of like rage and hate and bitterness.

Right. And so I loved that idea. And it's like, well, she's always smiling when she's angry and all that stuff. I'm obsessed with, I love passive aggression. Yeah. It's my favorite. I hate, well, she's always smiling when she's angry and all that stuff. I'm obsessed with, I love passive aggression. Yeah. It's my favorite. I hate,

well, I'm actually also very confrontational, but I really like, love it. Are you passive aggressive? Yes, I am.

I'm a small woman in public. Yeah. If I want to express that I'm unhappy, it has to be like, quietly. You know what I mean?

It has to be like a nasty, smiley kind of like, oh, did you need to stand right here? Right where I am right now? Oh, okay. Sorry, sir. Like that. That's how I'm too small. I can't actually be hostile. Sure you can.

Well, you know what I mean. It's just safer. It's less risky. You can always say, no, no, I meant it. Yeah, exactly. Oh, no, you're misunderstanding. It's the cowardly approach to competition. But do you find sometimes you get misread?

Yes. Yes, for sure. Yeah, like, what did I do? Like, nothing. I don't know why. You like that kind of thing? Like, were you not really being passive aggressive what people think you are?

Yes, that happens a lot. Apparently, when I compliment people, they think I'm being sarcastic. It's really been a problem my whole life. Yeah. Rory, you're just sort of like, hey, good job. Are you fucking with me? No.

Yeah, I remember going up to Matt LeBlanc at the Golden Globes when I was 23 and just being like, oh, my God, I love your show. I love the show so much. I love you. I think you're so great. And he literally thought I was being a jerk. And my boyfriend at the time had to be like, no, no, no, no, man. She really, really loves friends.

Really? Yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah. And it's happened to me many times throughout my life. Yeah. I think that when people have a sense or they think they know you or that you're the kind of person that they've projected a personality onto based on whatever work they know, they

make assumptions. Yeah. You know? And that happens to me all the time. Like people just assume that I don't want to do things or that I'm acting too smart or whatever. Right. I was about to say they probably think you're too smart for everything.

And I'm just sort of like, why? I just, no, I don't. I'm probably not going to go, but it's not because I'm too smart. But ask me anyway. Yeah, right. Exactly. But like with Juliette Lewis, I mean, you guys sort of had a similar kind of, you've been in the business since you were kids.

Yeah. Yeah. We, yeah, we've had a very similar and it pretty much the same time. Yeah. Did you work together ever before? We never worked together. I was actually obsessed with her when I was a teenager. For which one?

Which thing? Natural Born Killers. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. Right, right, right. Okay. Yes. Because I was like 14 or something when that came out. It's wild, right?

Yeah. Yeah. She's, it's yeah, yeah. Right, right, right. Okay. Yes. Because I was like 14 or something when that came out. It's wild, right? Yeah. Yeah. It's intense. Yeah. And I remember working with a PA who had just worked with her, and I was just like, tell me everything. What does she eat? What does she wear to work? Yeah.

Everything. I wanted to know. And then did you meet each other over the years? Yeah. We're in similar circles in LA. So I went to one of her birthday parties, but I didn't really know her and things like that and then we we met on set on a pilot really for the first like real time for yellow jacket for yellow jacket yeah and then we stayed in touch while we were waiting to see if we got picked up

and all that stuff yeah and then yeah and so we yeah we've been in touch about all and all the your pals now yeah and all the adults like all four of us we're been in touch about all. And all the. Your pals now. Yeah, and all the adults, like all four of us, we're all in touch. And we have like a Marco Polo group. Oh, really? Well, that's nice. Well, I mean, you're all like, well, I guess Melanie's with an actor. Yes, Jason. He's a good actor.

Yeah, he's amazing. Yeah. And what's your husband do? My husband is a hairdresser. Oh. He does hair for fashion and. Oh, well, that's good to have. Like campaigns and shows. That's good to have around. Yes. It's been helpful at times. Yeah. So when did, what was the first, like, when did

you start? I mean, I know. Start acting? Yeah. Oh, when I was seven. Seven? I started doing commercials and TV and stuff. Where were you? I was in New York. I lived in New Jersey at the time. But you were born out here? I was born here, but then we moved to Montauk, Long Island. I lived there for four years and then moved to New Jersey and that's where I was sort of discovered. What was all the moving? Why Long Island and then Jersey? My dad had a crazy business thing that happened and so we actually were all woken up.

Like a big idea? No, he was in a business and that happened and so we actually were all like a big idea no he was in a business yeah and something happened and so we had to leave la in the middle of the night really yeah all four kids three dogs is this a witness protection thing that you can't talk no it was like a bad partnership that went wrong oh yeah i think he had done something that they knew about. Oh, okay. He was being held over maybe someone's head. Wow. But I don't know because, you know, as a kid, those things are never clear. So you're on the run, though.

It was clear that you were on the run. Well, I don't think it's normal to move in the middle of the night. But that's all I'm going to say about that. Yeah, and that's when you went to Long Island? Yeah, we had a summer house in Montauk. Oh, so that was there. And so we drove across country and moved there. And then eventually I ended up in New Jersey with my family and was discovered in a school play.

What part of New Jersey? Montclair. Oh, yeah. That's not far. Well, I didn't grow up. I was born in Jersey. Oh, nice. Yeah, but I think my cousins went to what was...

Isn't there Montclair Academy or something? Yeah, MKA. Yeah. A private school there. I think that's where my cousins went. Oh, fun. Yeah. Do you like Jersey? I actually do. Right? I really liked livingA. Yeah. A private school there. I think that's where my cousins went. Oh, fun. Yeah. Do you like Jersey?

I actually do. Right? I really liked living there. Montclair was a beautiful town. I had a great, I had a nice little childhood there. And you have like nine brothers and sisters? No, I have two brothers and a sister. Are they all younger?

No, I'm the youngest. You are? Yeah. How are they all doing? They're doing great. Everybody's doing good. Are they in show business? No. No. Nope. You're the only one? Yeah. I'm the youngest. You are? Yeah. How are they all doing? They're doing great. Everybody's doing good. Are they in show business? No.

No. Nope. You're the only one? Yeah. I'm the only one. And are your folks still around? My father's dead, but my mom is around. We're pretty close.

She's at the house like every- Oh, so she's out here. Twice a week, yeah. And you got kids, so that's good. Yes. She comes to see the baby. And that works. Twice a week.

Yeah. And my son, of course. How old is the son? My son is about to be eight, and then I have an eight-month-old. So how does the kids thing, given that, I have to assume, probably, I'm sure it's been assumed before. I mean, if you started acting at seven, how much of a childhood did you have, really, if you think about it? Well, I was really good at compartmentalizing. Yeah.

The first time I went to, I went and shot a movie when I was nine. It was my first movie. And I came back, and the first day back, I started talking about what I had been doing. And immediately, it was just like, everybody shut down, and no one wanted to hear it. What kids your age, you mean? Yeah, and they felt like I was bragginggging or it just made me immediately a weirdo. Really? And so I never spoke about it again.

I would leave for three months at a time, come back, no one would ask me what I'd been doing and I would never talk about it. But didn't they eventually start seeing you in movies? They did, but they still never spoke to me about it. It was really interesting. They're the same kids I'd been going to school with

since I was like six years old until I got to high school. And just no one ever talked about it. So I was kind of able to go and have two separate lives in a way. But so they judged you, but they didn't hold you. They didn't think you were. They got along with you still. Yeah, it was like as long as I didn't bring it up.

It was OK. So I was kind of really able to just like go do work and come home and just be a kid. Yeah? Yeah. For a while, for a while. Until I hit high school and then it became really difficult. And whose idea was it to act? Well, I mean, only the person who discovered me, really. My mother had been a model from the time she was quite young, a child model and then a teenage or 27 model. Really? And she did not like the way she was treated. Yeah.

So every single one of the kids in my family was scouted. But because I'm the last one, she always said no. But because I'm the last one, my oldest brother at that point was like 13. And he was just like, you should definitely let her try this. Why would you say no? So she was sort of pressured by the older kids. And I was the only one who was really allowed to go and try it. What do you mean scouted?

How does that happen? Somebody comes up and is like, your kid is amazing. I'm a casting director. We think you should blah, blah, blah. In my case, it was somebody who was very close with a manager for children and whose son also was already acting. And where'd they see you? I was in a school play. And was that the same with the other siblings?

No, they would just be like out. Really? Yeah, approached. The thing is, all the kids in my family kind of look exactly the same. And we were all incredibly verbal as children right and very i think outgoing yeah so that's the kind of kid that does get scout right but like i just picture these scouts are just driving around just all over the place and they just see a school and they're like where's some i don't think it happens as much anymore but i guess that it's an old-fashioned type of thing

the scouting but like where'd they see your brothers i don't out? Out places? They weren't in a play or anything? I don't have the details. Oh, it's so wild. That seems so random to me. You see scouts around, then you got to meet with your parents. It's true. I don't know. I've never asked any detailed questions about what happened with the other ones.

But they didn't end up doing anything. No. My mom always said no. Oh, she drew a line. And she said no with me too, but then they said, no,'s not fair you have to let her try because she was afraid based on her life based on her experience in modeling which was awful i guess even back then yeah and she said and they said to her well it's got to be different and she's a kid and it's not like she's gonna be a model so they let me try and this is what happened what specifically was your mom afraid of do you think in terms of like i just think the whole thing yeah being objectified having to maintain a look

a weight and all that shit yeah and she has really funny like if you ask my mom is very funny yeah and i used to ask her why she hated modeling so much and wasn't it fun and you were a model during the time of andy warhol and all the stuff right was she in New York during that yes and so I asked her about this when I was a teenager and she was like oh no it was terrible you couldn't go anywhere there were all these parties where they would drug models and make them have sex with dogs so apparently that's what she was afraid of the dogs oh my god that's not like one of those urban myths that was just enough to keep her at home kept those ladies at home in their apartments.

Was she like a big model? No, no. I mean, not like a huge model. She was a mod. She was, you know, the time of mod style. And she was the same size as Twiggy. So she was Twiggy's U.S. fit model. Really?

So they'd like fit all the clothes on her before Twiggy would fly in and stuff like that. I know. I guess that's kind of bittersweet. Did she know Twiggy? Yeah. on her before Twiggy would fly in. I guess that's kind of bittersweet. Did she know Twiggy? Yeah, and I think she, I know that, I mean, I feel that she's proud of her modeling work.

So what play were you doing when you got the big break? It was an interpretation of the song The Twelve Days of Christmas. An interpretation? An artistic, avant-garde interpretation? It wasn't terribly avant-garde. It was like four kids in the corner of a stage. One of them's complaining about what they got for Christmas.

All they wanted was a basketball. On the first day I got, and then the second grade class would come out and do a dance about two turtle doves and stuff like that. Not cutting edge? Not cutting edge. I will say the way I got the lead was a little advanced. I used to, well, not used to, but I was upset that I didn't get the lead in the play because I felt the second we started exploring acting,

I felt like I just knew what to do and I was naturally really good at this. And the lead was a boy and it annoyed me that it had to be a boy. And so I provoked the boy into hitting me. And then I told on him. Yeah. And I got the lead.

And they pushed him out. Yeah. Wow. That's almost like mob stuff. I mean, and what's weird is that I always look back and I'm like, is this a story? Have I changed this story? You set him up. Was I not?

Like, maybe I wasn't. It didn't intentionally happen. But in my mind, I've made it intentional. Right. But I really this story. You set him up. Was I not? Maybe I wasn't. It didn't intentionally happen, but in my mind, I've made it intentional. Right. But I really do remember trying to get him in trouble. This was the plan. I don't know if I knew I would get the part, but I definitely wanted to get him in trouble. Well, I think it may be, depending on how ambitious you are, that could last a lifetime, those tactics.

But I'm not ambitious at all anymore. All the tribe has just sucked right out of me. And now I'm not even competitive. So it's weird because how was I so competitive then? But whatever. Why wouldn't you be? You were a kid and you wanted to do it. That's true.

You know? So you did commercials first? Yeah. Commercials, some TV stuff, voiceover, stuff like that. Yeah. And then what, the big break was The Addams Family? No, this movie I did called Mermaids with Cher. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. How old were you? I was nine. I just watched a video of Cher singing Satisfaction by the Rolling Stones. It must have been in the early 70s. She's fucking amazing. Amazing. And I have to say, one of the most incredible people still to this day that I've ever met.

Like, just a good person. Yeah? one of the most incredible people still to this day that I've ever met. Like, just a good person. Yeah? A good, realistic, practical, like, person. And, like, solid. Solid. Like, you know, confident. Yes. And kind of, like, totally her own thing.

Yeah. It's kind of wild. Yeah. She's amazing. Amazing. Do you remember working with her? Yes. I worked with her.

I would go. She'd have me come over for sleepovers. I would spend weekends at her house in Malibu. I mean, she was just so lovely. And when I was doing the movie, what was amazing is that she, I wasn't just some kid that was like around. She saw me as a human being and was like, oh, you must be really confused about what's going on. Let me explain all this to you. And she literally would explain everything to me.

Everything. And if it was something she couldn't explain in front of people, she'd take me in her trailer and explain it to me. Like, she was amazing. Like what? Well, there was this whole thing going on at one point where they were replacing the director. And she didn't want me to feel worried

or like there was stuff going on. And she was like, also, you're in this movie too. You should know what's happening. So she'd have production meetings in her trailer and she'd hide me in the back so that I could hear what was going on,

which was like amazing to do with a kid. Just be like, you're also an actor in this movie. You should know what's happening and here's what's going on. And sometimes she'd explain like if you didn't understand

things in the scene or like... Yeah, like little things in the scene or like. Yeah. Like little things in the scene there. I was really confused about, I remember people having to cry. Yeah. On camera. Yeah. And I was like, how is that going to happen? Yeah.

Like really did not. Because I had literally had no acting training at all. You're just going by instinct. And she walked. Well, I was just a kid. They would say this line. Oh, it sounds natural. Great.

Get in here. You know? So she, she sort of like walked me through different processes and her process and crying yeah it was really amazing did it work i i think so yeah yeah i think so i'm not sure so is that how the the the sort of process of you kind of putting some sort of craft together was just picking up other people other people's things and i'd see someone do something and i'd be like oh that looks like that would really work really i'm gonna do that yeah just choices i worked with this amazing actor scott wilson on monster and even though i was already 22 he did this incredible thing where he shook his hands out

as he got more and more distressed and just watching him do that made me feel distressed. Yeah. And so like, I picked that up. I do that now when I need to start feeling distressed. Like little, I tool. Yeah. I really like, I have just kind of cobbled together a whole thing, but you never like,

but you never actually studied with anybody. No, I wanted to. No, I wanted to, but at the time that I wanted to, I was sort of, well, I was told not to do it just in case somebody ruined what I was already good at, which I don't think was really the intention. These were your people? I think at a certain point there was an idea of not having anyone get too much control over me. Oh, and that was when you were a kid my 20s oh really yeah so like you just wrote out the adams family and uh casper with just you know just instinct just basics but if you actually watch casper i'm terrible in it it's people get so upset when i say that but i because i'm like no it's a what

it's a wonderful movie i'm i know you, it's a wonderful movie. I know you. Because it's a childhood treasure for people. Sure, sure. But I am terrible at it. Yeah? Yeah. Why do you think that? Well, I was 13.

Yeah. Everything was changing. There was a lot going on in my life. You know what I mean? I was 13. Yeah. Everything was very difficult. Yes.

And I was just always annoyed. And I just don't think I tried very hard, to tell you the truth. Oh, really? Yeah. Embarrassingly, I have to say. Auto-piloted it? I don't think I tried as hard as maybe I should have. Huh.

Well, I mean, I guess they're like, and that didn't feed the character? Well, I mean, she is supposed to be like an obnoxious teen. Yes. But there are times, like I've seen it. I don't know why I saw it recently. No, because I was showing my son. And I remember just thinking like, wow, that was not a good. No, not a believable line reading at all.

Yeah. It's just like. Yeah. No commitment. Not a lot of commitment. Sure. But you were 13. Exactly.

Give yourself a break. Exactly. And you were, I bashed right out of Carolina. That's a, that's 13. Exactly. You can't give yourself a break. Exactly. And you were, Bastard Out of Carolina, that's heavy. Yeah. I had one scene and I came to do it because Angelica Houston

was directing it and she asked me to come and do a cameo. Oh, because you were with her in the Amazon. Yeah. How was she as a director? She was amazing.

She was wonderful to work with. I mean, Angelica, again, much like Cher, was somebody who was just so, just really included me as a child and was interested in speaking to me and taught me things. Yeah. You know, different things than Cher. She was a different person, different kind of actress.

Uh-huh. Interested in different aspects of being an actress. Really? Which I also thought was really interesting to see. Yeah, yeah. Like what? Well, just like different things. Like Angelica taught me about photo kills.

Yeah. I, Cher, had never, ever mentioned photo kills. I don't even know what it is. I'd never seen her do any in her trailer. But we used to have to sit there with, it was from the stills photographer. Okay. And you'd sit there with contact sheet and a wax pen and a light box. Yeah.

And you'd cross out physically your kills. Oh, oh. Because you're allowed like 70 70 approval or something like that or whatever right right for the promo stuff kind of thing i've never seen that and like the sort of things that angelica had to wear versus what sharon had to wear and the way she got ready in the morning versus the way like it was just interesting especially as a little girl watching women yeah in my profession yeah and the different ways in which they were professional. Yeah.

Wow. So how were your parents dealing with this? My mom was with me when I traveled. Always? Yeah. And she was great. Actually, a lot of the reason why I was successful early on was because my mother was so professional because they would not cast children who had difficult parents.

And my mom was a great person to work with. Yeah? Yeah. Because she kind of knew. She was very, my mom is very, you know, practical and was just, was great at how my behavior should be on set. Right. And your dad was out of the picture?

No, my dad was back at home with the other kids. Yeah. Did they stay together? They did not. They were divorced when I was 13. Oh, so that's the Casper problem. Although I was thrilled. We were all thrilled when they finally got divorced.

Oh, really? Yeah. It was one of those situations. Where all the kids were like, when is he going to? Well, yeah, exactly. Because it was just terrible? Yeah, it was not a good house. Oh.

No. What, yelling? Yeah, and was not a good house. Oh. No. What, yelling? Yeah, and my dad had been a primal scream therapist. What? Who developed a bit of a cult following. So you can imagine that sort of personality with four children. So is this something he did later in his career, the primal scream thing? No, this was early.

Oh, so it was before you made the run for Montauk? It was before he formed a business with people who were in his primal scream therapy group. And then, surprisingly, amazingly, I can't believe it. Were angry and fucked up people? Everything went nuts. So he's a primal scream therapist? Yeah. And that's a licensed therapist?

No. No, it is not. Especially in different states. Oh, my my god so was he a screaming person oh yeah so it didn't so did he just rationalize that it's like this is how you're supposed to express yourself yes because depression was anger towards turned inward so if you don't get it out yeah you you might accidentally just get depressed and sad instead of screaming at someone. God forbid we get quiet and sad instead of screaming at people. Instead of making everyone sad.

He'd yell that sometimes. And I'd be like, I mean, I feel like it'd be better if we were all just in our beds. Yeah. Right? Like if we were not yelling at each other. But so that's like, that's its own fucking nightmare right but it's also kind of funny because after like the legitimate business kind of when we left yeah he would sometimes do group therapy in the basement of the house we were living in yeah so like everyone would have to

go to bed at like nine right and then and then the people would start coming and you hear them like million downstairs they go down to the basement. Yeah. And he had attempted to quote unquote soundproof the basement. But really all he did was like tape some thick thing to the basement door. Completely forgetting about the vents in the house. Sure. So like around 930, I'd start hearing like, I hate him. Why? Because he's an asshole.

Why is he an asshole? Because he's a asshole. Why is he an asshole? Because he's a fucking motherfucking asshole. And so then in the morning I'd come down and my mother would be like sitting there drinking her coffee and I'd start going, I fucking hate you. We would do

like a whole funny imitate. I would imitate it in the morning. The patients in the basement. And that was like four or five people yelling it'd be like six or seven they would seem like a lot more people than four or five oh my god and they would go through like role playing yeah like tell me what he did right right you hate so much well you fucked my mother like shit yeah yeah yeah so you got a real education from yelling people in the basement yeah and surprisingly and surprisingly, me and my mom, we all thought it was funny.

I think you would have to. You have to. You have enough distance from it to think it's funny. It's too ridiculous. Yeah. But your dad just screamed and yelled, but he wasn't boozy or anything? I mean. Yeah, yeah.

It all goes together, huh? I guess. So that was the relief of them getting sick. Yeah, yeah. You know. It all goes together, huh? I guess. So that was the relief of them getting sick. Yeah. Yeah. Yes. And he was very controlling and dominant and wanted followers and a narcissist and all that fun stuff.

Wow. So he was like- A person who wants to cultivate a cult is pretty much a narcissist. That was his plan. Yeah. Oh, for sure. People who are inspired by other cult leaders are are not how he had cult heroes well i don't know but ultimately what happened you know and my mom has my mom

actually met him because she was his one of his clients so she's described the first time she went to one of the sessions yeah it sounds pretty culty to me oh did he ever succeed in amassing? He had a mini cult. He did? It was a mini one. Mini? Like what, 12 people? I think probably like 30. Really? Maybe. They used to have parties at the house and he would later then criticize their behavior.

To them or to you guys? To them. Oh, really? He'd like tell them things they needed to work on socially. His brain fucked him. He made them depend on him. Wow. Yeah. I'm assuming it didn't end well, ultimately, for that guy.

I mean, those types of things never seem to end well. Yeah. Narcissism is one thing, but Jesus, the extended narcissism that involves everyone else yes so like what did you find that coming out of that you had to what did it leave you with that you had to like excise from your being yeah i um well yeah i had a lot of trouble i have a lot of trouble with um being overly compassionate empathetic and not seeing, I sort of that whole, like that whole myth of like people who are hurt. Hurt people.

Yes. But meaning that like, if you're just really nice to them, they won't, you know, like just being really nice to the dog that actually bites everybody. Just cause you're nice to that dog, that dog's still going to bite you type of thing.

But with people. But with people. Sorry. Yes. It was a people. But with people. Sorry. Yes, it's a metaphor. No, I get it. I know to stay away from the actual dogs. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, because they're limited in their capacity to charm.

Exactly. Exactly. Yeah, so I had to sort of... Boundaries, huh? Yeah. Yeah, and just I think that when your father is somebody like that, you. Well, for me. Yeah.

It was difficult for me to not love that person. Well, that's a trick, right? And that's the problem is that then when you see people who exhibit similar behavior, it triggers a similar kind of like empathy and compassion. Right. And maybe guilt that you feel for your parent that can't fix their life. All that stuff. And it can leave you a little bit exposed so i had to sort of learn to correct all that stuff which i'm still not great at so i'm actually just very protective about who i'm around right i mean i know if i sense things from somebody i just won't talk to them again because i feel very um vulnerable

sure i i mean they may not know that. No, exactly. But like, and it's weird about, you know, I used to do bits about it, about psychic vampires, like, and how they exist, but they don't know they're that. No. So you sort of got to go like, I'm sorry, I just can never talk to you again. You seem to need way too much specific attention. Yeah. And the whole boundary thing. Yeah. Yes. Because when you have volatile, my dad was fairly narcissistic and he was a doctor, but he's not a cult guy.

But they're volatile. You don't know what the fuck's going to happen. And then you got it in your head that you love them. And then if something is wrong between you and them, you blame yourself and you build this other parent

inside your head that's like, oh, you're terrible. You're awful. And then you grow a dependency on these lunatics it takes a long time to exercise that shit it really does and i don't know that you ever actually are able to yeah i know i think that i've learned just like coping like i think the best thing i've been able to do is recognize that i have that i that i need to protect myself yes from how vulnerable i am to certain kinds of manipulation i know it's like but when you have the crazy parent or the abusive one the emotionally

abusive one you're vulnerable to the worst fucking people yes and that's the problem you like them you're like wow that person seems exciting they feel familiar oh my god yeah and now i gotta get it yeah i i've been in a situation with people, with women, like a borderline personality. It's sort of like, she was so exciting right up until I got the restraining order. It's the worst. No, I know. But like, and no one can tell you different. Like, you know, you have people in your life that should have been like, you know, we knew

she was like, well then why didn't someone say anything? I know. And you feel like. Some of us need electric shock therapy. I know. Or just like the collar. So when you're like.

I couldn't believe it. Anyway, so we're doing better? Yeah. And I feel like you have to be burned like that a couple times. A couple times.

Not just once. It has to escalate. Each one has to get progressively worse until you're finally like, oh, and now, now like I can sense those people and I literally feel repelled. So that's good.

I know. I, you know, I, I, I think I finally crossed that threshold, you know, like after two, I think categorically borderline people, like, uh, another one came at me and initially I was like, Ooh oh this is exciting and then like it just something was set just like one sentence I'm like oh my god no if this is this is gonna this is how this is gonna go I know exactly what's gonna happen did you react to that did you get it good but because I've had that moment and then the other part of me who's across the room is like yeah but let's see what happens sure yeah kind of exciting this is really

going on yeah it seemed fun you know wait is this really going on right now i i have to see how this ends well no but but here's the fucked up thing though if you want me to be honest is like yeah i was able to see it and then just say look i can't we can't have lunch i don't want and this was during covid we were gonna have lunch or something because we were it was all texting and she kind of knew knew friends that I knew, common friends and stuff. So I'm like, all right, she's got to be okay. And then it just happened. I'm like, I can't do anything. I can't talk to you. It's like, you know, I've had

I'm in recovery. Okay. And then she sent me like a barrage of the most abusive shit that I've ever seen in my life. And I barely knew her, but I was like, wow. So yeah, so she really helped you. Right. But that's it. Right. So I barely knew her, but I was like, wow. So yeah, so she really helped you shut that blocker. But that's it.

Right, so I put all those texts on my screen so I wouldn't... I used to be someone who deleted the crazy texts because I just didn't want to... I would be like,

oh, that's really unpleasant. Let's just pretend that didn't happen. Oh, really? I save them in case something horrible happens. Well, now I have learned to do that.

But in the past, I'd be like, oh, I don't want this. I don't want this on my phone. Delete it. Well, now I have learned to do that. Yeah. But in the past, I'd be like, oh, I don't want this. I don't want this on my phone. Get out of here. Delete it. Well, here's the fucked up part of the story is a year later,

she's like, hey, what's up? And I'm like, not much. No. Yeah, and I got sucked back in just for a minute. Okay, good. And then it got terrible. It got very terrible very quickly

and it seems to be okay now. I'm always grateful now. I feel like in life, you should be grateful for the ones that reveal themselves really fast. Yes. As long as you can listen to it and know what it is and get away from it, which that's the hard part. But I don't know that everybody knows what you feel because it's a type of empath. I don't think it's a broad empathy,

but you are empathetic for the type of person that most people are like, no. Yes, they have a natural, I'm not talking to you, too. I know I was trying to explain this to somebody else. But it's our responses that keep the thing going. And it's a response that we have from, obviously, childhood. Right. And it's immediately, now as you get hip to it, it's immediately terrifying. Yes.

Like, as soon as it happens, you're like, I'm already in trouble. Yeah. And I find that not only in romantic relationships will things like that as it happens, you're like, I'm already, I'm already in trouble. Yeah. And I, I find that not only in romantic relationships, will things like that happen. And I, yeah. Dynamics at work,

all that stuff. And it is really, it's really interesting. I've learned to just be someone who's very removed. Yeah. For the most part. And did you like, cause I still have,

like I get, like I have a, a, a way of existing in the world, but, like, I get very consumed with dread and panic about, just about shit, about people. Yep. I have a really hard time. Yeah. I mean, this sounds really crazy.

I know I sound like a crazy lady when I say this. Not at all. But I have a really hard time. Like, I will just joke with my husband and my friends and just like after a day of day of anything. Yeah. Oh, it's just too much humanity. Too much. Driving around in the streets and seeing homeless people and and seeing people so miserable everywhere you go all the time.

And then thinking of I think about my own death quite a bit. I think. Do you? Yes. What the point of my life, like all these existential things that are supposed to be like young person musings, like I'm still obsessed with. Yeah. And it really, as you walk through life, it really, you just feel like you're underwater

sometimes. I agree. Yeah. It's a lot. And the empathy can be a lot because if you are very empathetic, too many people and too much misery. They get in there they climb inside and like for me you can't even escape it now no no you can't and for me like you know where it really

kills me is animals yes i can't if i hear about animals like you know children animals i can't nope it's like it that's gotten really worse the animal thing if i read a thing about like there was some story today about a whale who jumped on a boat. I'm like, I can't even look at it. I don't know why he did it, but it couldn't have been a good reason. No. It's just sad. It's so sad.

Yeah. Yeah. But yet, I still eat a hamburger. I know. Well, that's the thing. I really love animals. But yes, I still, yes. It's starting to bother me a little bit.

Yes. It's a tough thing. I know. You know, because we detach from that. Yeah. That sort of like industry of pain. But the other thing about with the people and what you're talking about, like the thinking about your own death and stuff, like it's very hard to compartmentalize all that stuff. And you know it's going on inside you, but you just got to be out in the world sort of like, hey, how's it going?

Let's keep going. Oh, my God. I used to, when my son was two or three, we'd be like getting ready for school or something. He'd start like, I don't want to,

I feel this, I don't want, and I would say to him, sometimes we just have to do, not feel. It's not time to feel, it's time to do, and we can remember

everything we felt and we'll talk about it later. Right. The act as if. Yeah. Right. I feel like that's a lot of life right now. It's just like, all right, we're going to go do this.

We have to. And then afterwards, I'm going to feel stuff. Yeah. Do you get depressed or just like- I don't. I have really horrible anxiety. Yeah. How does it manifest itself?

Dread. I get dread. I'm like a hypervigilance. And I have a lot of dread as well. Just like for everything. I try to combat that by being overprepared for everything. Oh, yeah. How does that work out?

I mean, I'm usually not late for stuff. I usually book things months in advance. I usually at least have a little bit of conversation prepared before I get to a place. So it's like a control thing. Yeah. Right. Like you feel unprepared. Then I don't have to freak about that.

Yeah. It's just too much chaos. I feel constant chaos swirling around me. Yeah, yeah. There's nothing going on. That's from people screaming in the basement. From never knowing what to expect. Yeah. That's exactly it.

Like either you go either way, it seems when you have that kind of an up rating, either you become the control person or you become a chaotic fucking mess. Yeah. And I'm going to like a mix of both. Oh, really? Yeah. And I think that's why it's like, I know I can be such a chaotic mess that I know if I'm not vigilant, it's all going to just...

How did that manifest itself in your life? Chaotic mess. At what point? I was just like a wild animal in my early 20s, late teens, early 20s. Like literally a feral creature. Really? Was the transition,

like was it because of the transition from child acting? I think so. I think that probably all of the pressure and anxiety, weight of the realizations of being a young person and all of that stuff together i think was so much that i couldn't stand to actually worry about it or feel it so i just went was like i'm gonna be punk rock and i'm gonna be nuts when did that start like when i was like 16 oh yeah and then and then there was scrutiny on you as that start? Like when I was like 16. Oh yeah? And then there was scrutiny on you as an actress because people were probably like, what's she going to do now?

I guess so. I mean, people, I had a very, I had a very unpleasant way of being interviewed when I was younger, which made me sort of popular in terms of like, oh, she's going to say crazy stuff. Let's put her in more outlets. Let's make more opportunities for this young woman

to completely embarrass herself in perpetuity. With the struggling young woman who's having a hard time. Yeah, because the internet is just starting. So, you know, let's make sure she remembers this the rest of her life. Like what were you, like what you were just- I just said crazy dumb things. Oh, you did?

Yeah, like- On purpose or you just had no- You know, I would talk, yes. Because I also had that attitude of like, I'm 18. Yeah. I didn't even, you did? Yeah. On purpose or you just had no control? Yes. Because I also had that attitude of like, I'm 18. I didn't even go to college. Why are you asking me

what I think about anything? You know? But you're not allowed to say that to people. Yeah. So instead, I would just say really like sarcastic,

shocking, or dumb things. Dumb. So, yeah, there was a lot of that. And you got a reputation? A little bit. But ultimately, like, once you got into your late teens, you did feel like you were kind of out of control?

Yeah. Yeah. Like with what? Like booze? Well, just everything. Like, I was always late for everything. Oh, really? And I couldn't sometimes make it to things

purely from, like, social anxiety or being overwhelmed. I wouldn't be prepared it to things purely from like social anxiety or being overwhelmed. I wouldn't be prepared for work. Really? Not in a way that I think other people notice. Right, right. But for you. I felt it. Yeah, yeah.

And yeah, I did. I went, you know, and we'd go on these trips. Yeah. And there'd be partying. Right. And really fun experiences, too, where you're on location in some motel in the middle of the desert. Everyone's just partying the whole time and working. And that's fine when you're 17.

I guess. I don't know how people do it. Well, I could do it then. Yeah. But it took me so long to parent myself into a functioning adult that because I finally did it, now I think from then on I've been vigilant about about like, this is never, I'm never going to fall back into chaos again. Did you find you had to like, because I'm hung up on, you know, sort of what I was talking

about before a little bit that, you know, that there's some part, like if you had weird parents or one, there's some part of you that blames yourself when you're young. So the sort of inner parent that you put in place is a judgmental one. Did you find that you had to like replace the inner parent in yourself? I mean, I still haven't she's not that nice to me, but I sometimes feel like it's good Like I I do need a kick in the pants. Yeah, a rough hand So, what do you think like in terms of the your crazier times where you were at your most sort of like? Out of control,

what movies that you did, that you did represent that time? Um, well, I don't think you could ever tell in my movies, but I guess the most chaotic and emotionally out of control, all that stuff I was, was when I was making Prozac Nation,

this movie. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That book. Yeah. And, um,

I didn't really having not had any acting training yeah and not really i've never been a person that seeks advice from people yeah or wants i've i just have never been someone that looked for guidance yeah so i just decided to do this really difficult emotional piece like completely on my own yeah i had seen other actors right do things and had seen a lot of, I'd worked with a lot of male actors that were like, you do whatever you have to do. Yeah. For the scene.

Right. Okay. So you knew the myth of the method. I, and so I was just like, great, I'm just going to get in there and do that.

And it was really tough to recover from. Really? Yes. Like what part of it? So dumb. Well, I think if you're a person

who has a complicated emotional history. Yeah. And if you spent every day in a really deep, like, depressive, upset, crying state, and you never, and you're so, like, into it. Yeah. Like, you stay with it at nighttime. You did that whole thing. Yeah.

You were able to do that. Like, you were able to tell yourself to do that. Yeah, to stay a bit, like a total wreck the whole time. And so then it was difficult to get out of that because you've told your brain to do this thing. Oh, wow. So it's doing it. I imagine that trained actors who do that particular thing have that experience as well. Well, I mean, I think that another actor would have warned me not to do it that way or to at least come out of it at nighttime or make sure that you're doing something at night.

And I just didn't know. I just had no idea. So it stuck a little bit. Yeah. So it took me a little while to recover. A couple months. Huh. So do you feel like now?

That was the absolute last time that I have felt that chaos. Uh-huh. And maybe you purged it a little. Yeah. And I think the recovery from it actually taught, I had to learn how to be an adult while recovering from that. Right. You know, to put structure in my day and take care of myself and all the things that, like, you learn just by.

So that was, like, sort of your bottom. I guess. Because, like, you did so many movies between you know oh yeah it was always working there was never a problem now by the time you get to monster i can't imagine what that set was like and and and that was like charlize i think everybody was like what the fuck yeah and you were like amazing but like in talking to you now you were kind of emotionally prepared for that role yeah in a way yeah to be codependent to somebody that dangerous and manipulative and yeah i've always really been very obsessed with the more manipulative characters i guess from my childhood and everything um but yeah i felt

i really loved that character because i felt like I was exploring something that I hadn't understood in my life. Yeah? What specifically? Just people who were capable of both. That, you know, really using and abusing somebody, but through their own version of what they feel is love. You know what I mean? Right, right. And this cowardice, this idea of cowardice and survival and how some people, no matter what,

are still scared animals. Yeah. And also denial, right? And denial. Denial is a huge part of being able to function for certain people. Right. So that was interesting for me to play that part.

And that set actually was amazing. Really? Amazing, because Patty Jenkins, the director, was so part. And that set actually was amazing. Really? Because Patty Jenkins, the director, was so incredible. And Charlize was so incredible. And I think because the material was so dark, our natural defense against it, we just laughed. Charlize and I would crack up, giggle, until Patty called to action. Really?

For even the darkest things. Huh. Because you can't live in that sure but also i imagined that just you know out of self-protection exactly humanize those characters which was the whole trick of that movie was to make that monster a person yeah yeah and i imagine you two laughing between laughing must have informed something. Yeah, it probably also brought our connection, you could say. What was it like to act with her? What was her, did you pick things up from her? Yeah, I mean, Charlize was so dedicated and so in that character all the time. And I was really, I think at that age, really inspired by seeing somebody who was that committed and somebody so known for their beauty, kind of being willing to throw it away, to completely eschew any vanity.

And, and. Vulnerability of that. Yes. of that yes and inhabit this person and um yeah i was really it was it was i know it sounds like the wrong word to say because it sounds belittling in some way but i was so enamored and charmed with her passion and commitment and complete immersion yeah um it just made me love her so much yeah are you guys buddies no we're not really still in touch although when i got my and complete immersion. Yeah. It just made me love her so much. Yeah. Are you guys buddies? No, we're not really still in touch.

Although when I got my Emmy nomination, she was the first person to send me a congratulatory gift, and it was a house plant because I used to always say I was botanophobic. Yeah. So she sent me an indoor plant. Why? Because you kill plants?

Or why are you botanophobic? I don't know. I don't like the idea of bringing in dirt into the house on purpose. Wow. Okay. That's very specific. And I don't like ferns because they have spores, which I feel like is a little rapey. So no shoes in your house, I'm assuming.

No, I wear shoes. In the house. I know. It doesn't make sense. But don't bring dirt into the house on purpose. Do you have pets? Mm-hmm. What do you got?

I have two dogs. We have two dogs. Oh, well, two dogs, a co-share on a dog with my mother, and a cat. Okay. Okay. So when you look back on the process now, and everything you've learned and been through in the acting, because I think this role on Yellowjack is really great work. I mean, I feel like you did great work.

Thank you. You know, like it looks like you really put something together that's not, you know, it's organic yet very defined and quirky and disturbing. Well, that's the thing. I always wanted her to feel like somebody you might have had contact with at some point in your life. Sure. And that person that you're sort of like, oh, what a weirdo. I wonder what it would be like to go home with that person. And this is what she's like. This is what that person's like.

Right. You look surprised when I said there's comedic beats between you and Juliet. No, no. I'm not surprised. I have difficulty with comedy because I think I get so enmeshed with the character that then I feel defensive for the character, like she's being laughed at.

So sometimes, the whole time we were making the show, the whole season, people would be like, you're so funny, you're so funny, and I'm just like, ah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It probably made the character better. Well mean i do have a problem where sometimes i make choices from the ego of the character and i have to be very aware of this oh really yeah oh that's interesting so but like that but that scene where you finally get that guy to come home with you and she's sitting there with the gun yeah that moment was like yeah i got it

that was that was hilarious yeah we had a really good time there's stuff that's cut out that's And she's sitting there with the gun. Yeah. That moment where he's like, yeah, I got it. Yeah. That was hilarious. Yeah. We had a really good time. There's stuff that's cut out that's funny. Like when she discovers her boyfriend dead in the crying scene, we shot a lot more of it. And in a number of the takes, she would hit me. And so then I would hit her back. And it turned into this really funny, weird sister thing

that I think informed a lot of stuff that came after. It's just so wild because she is so weird and raw just by nature. And you're just so controlled. It's so, you guys should do a spinoff. It is funny because she is, in real life, I guess we are a bit like that too. Like she is much more, much wilder than me just in personality. Not like, I don't know how to describe it. Freer.

Yeah. Freer, looser, more reactive. And I, myself, am way more contained. So yeah, I guess that dynamic did really come from life. Yeah. That's why it works that's why it felt human to me you know the emotional dynamic between you two is genuine yeah yeah yeah and and you you know because like stuff happens in the show and i think with all those shows where you're

like how'd her face heal so quickly you know like i mean there's no way that's my job at any set by the way i am the party pooper i I'll be like, never look like that. Yeah. It would never look like that. But it's like, how did that guy? That's not how things break. Just so you know. Hey, just so you know that last take, you were totally doing it wrong.

You got to keep that in your head? I'm just kidding. I mean, I do it as a joke, but I don't actually do that to actors. I like the casual approach to all the gore and blood and shit. Yeah. I thought that was kind of interesting. Yeah. Just sort of matter of fact of it all.

Yeah. It makes it so much stronger, I think. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So when you look back on the whole stretch of everything, what's some of the movies or stuff you're most proud of for you? Casper's not one of them. Monster is.

I mean, I am proud of Casper for what it means to quite a few people. Sure, sure, but you're just not happy with yourself. I was not very good with it. I really like, I did this movie called The Ice Storm with Ang Lee. That's the best movie. It's really a beautiful, beautiful movie. And I remember seeing it at Lincoln Center and crying and being really proud of myself. And I don't think I had felt like that ever before that premiere.

So that movie I still am really proud of. I think it's an under-celebrated movie. Yeah, I agree. Like the poetry of the thing is just incredible. Yeah, it's so beautiful. And that generation of parents, the worst. Then that's like, those are the ones. Do you know what I mean? Yep, it's them yeah they're the ones yeah um yeah so that one i feel really proud of and um uh i don't know i'm really proud i'm actually really proud of of misty yellow jacket

yeah in a way that i haven't really been proud of anything i don't think ever before because i feel like it's the first time i've sort of maturely and without all of like unnecessary turmoil yeah created something yeah you know with other people obviously you know the writers ultimately create the character right right but i feel like it's the first time that from a very calm and present mature place and with as little ego as I could manage. Yeah. Made something that I feel really good about. Yeah. No, it's great. So that's great and new.

And I know I'm old to have that experience for the first time. No, are you kidding? But still. It's great. Like, yeah, you know, you've got it together enough to appreciate. And you don't have to take any massive risks no and it was calm

there was no drama there was no drama about creating this character it was simply like being a person with a brain and emotion and skill

like instead of like all the other things that have just you're like why was that so difficult why why were things so difficult? They are until they aren't, I guess.

Yeah, I guess so. But great job. Great talking to you. Thank you. Thank you so much. That was pleasant. Again, Christina's nominated for Outstanding Supporting Actress

in a Drama Series at the Emmys. Yellow Jackets is on Showtime on demand now. You can watch the entire first season. Yeah. Hang out for a second, will you? Just stay there. One sec. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats.

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See app for details. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead

courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5pm in Rock City at torontorock.com. So look, on Thursday, I talked to Gerard Carmichael. This is his second appearance. We seem to be doing that now. There's some people I haven't talked to in over a decade. If you want to hear his first appearance from 2015, it's now available in the free podcast feed. Wherever you're listening to this, you can go back to episode 631 and check out his first appearance. Folks with WTF Plus subscriptions can listen to it ad-free. Get that by going to the link in the episode description. subscriptions can listen to it ad-free. Get that by going to the link in the episode description. With Gerard, a lot has changed for the guy since he was on. He directed his first movie.

He has an Emmy-nominated stand-up special. He hosted SNL. And on the personal front, he came out. So lots to talk about. I'm in Lincoln, Nebraska at the Rococo Theater on August 18th. Des Moines, Iowa at the Hoyt Sherman Place on August 19th. And Iowa City, Iowa at the Ingert Theater on August 18th, Des Moines, Iowa at the Hoyt Sherman Place on August 19th, and Iowa City, Iowa at the Ingert Theatre on August 20th. I'm in Tucson, Arizona at the Rialto Theatre on September 16th, Phoenix, Arizona at Stand Up Live on September 17th, Boulder, Colorado at the Boulder Theatre

on September 22nd, Fort Collins, Colorado at the Lincoln Center on September 23rd, and Toronto, Ontario at the Queen Elizabeth Theatre on September 30th and October 1st, London, England, and Dublin, Ireland. I'll be coming to you in October. And as I mentioned at the beginning of the show, I have new dates for November and December in Oklahoma city, Dallas, San Antonio, Houston, Eugene, Oregon, Bend, Oregon, Asheville, North Carolina, and Nashville, Tennessee.

Go to WTF pod.com slash tour for all dates and ticket info. And now, like, I'm finding a tone, man. Here it is. Thank you. © transcript Emily Beynon Thank you. Boomer lives. Monkey. Lafonda. Cat angels everywhere. All right, all right, all right.