WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1358 - Jerrod Carmichael

Episode Date: August 18, 2022

Jerrod Carmichael has been busy since the last time he talked with Marc in the garage. He directed his first movie, On The Count Of Three. He put out his third standup special, Rothaniel, and hosted SNL, getting Emmy nominations for both. He also came out as gay. Jerrod talks with Marc about how terrified he was about coming out and how he faced his fear on stage as he incorporated it into his act. They also talk about Jerrod’s realization of the social responsibility in his work now and how his desire to subvert expectations keeps him going. Click here to Ask Marc Anything and Marc might answer your question in WTF+ bonus content. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global bestselling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series, streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply.

Lock the gates! all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies it's the what the fuckpocalypse welcome welcome to it how's everyone doing how are you welcome to the new people i have to say that right out of the gate here. I was talking to Brendan McDonald, the genius who runs the knobs here at WTF, the genius who does the tidying up of the mess that I am and the conversations I have, the genius that the entire sort of functional side of this racket, Brendan McDonald, has informed me that our numbers look good. The numbers look good. And I don't Google myself. I don't search me. I don't check algorithms or numbers related to me.

And occasionally, Brendan will say the numbers look good. And not only good, but great. And I think that has something to do with the fact that we're with ACAST now, this new platform that has an international footprint. And I'm getting emails from Belfast and the UK and from Australia. It feels like there's an influx of the international crowd. And these people are coming in to, you know, 800 episodes that they can just listen. They're right there. You don't have to join up for anything.

They're just if you're new to it and, you know, have fun. There's your 800 episodes right there. No paywall for those 800. You're welcome. And welcome. Seriously, though, thanks for coming on board. I appreciate it. Anyway, before I get going here, before I start rambling too much, we've been doing bonus content that we call Ask Mark Anything on WTF Plus,

and I'll be doing one again next week. This time, if you want to send me a question, all you have to do is click on the link in the show description. On whatever app you're using right now, just go to the episode notes and you'll see a link for Ask Mark Anything. Send me a question and I may answer it on next week's bonus content. Dig it. And if you're not subscribed to the full Marin on WTF Plus, there's a link for that in the show notes as well, or you can go to WTF pod.com and click on WTF plus today on the show. I talked to a Gerard Carmichael. Now look, I talked to this guy back in 2015. If people want to go listen to that chat, you can it's episode six 31

and it's available for free and all podcast apps. No ads if you listen on WTF+. But back then, he had just come off a few movies. He had his own show on NBC, The Carmichael Show. He had had some juice as a stand-up. But since then, as many of you probably know, he's been developing a lot of projects, including the first film he directed. It's called On the Count of Three,

and it's now uh streaming on hulu he also hosted snl and released a new stand-up special directed by beau burnham called rathaniel and he's got emmy nominations for both of those things he also came out as gay uh and that was sort of the big i don't know spoilers i don't know spoilers but that's sort of the the big thing about rathaniel and the big thing about about gerard at this point in time here's an update on charlie uh charlie beans charlie beans roscoe are we gonna are we gonna put him on mic or no he's sleeping you can wake up do we wake him up Charlie Beans Roscoe is, what is he, five weeks now? This is a cat that, there's part of me that doesn't want me to take him.

Hi, Charlie Beans. Hey, Charlie Beans Roscoe. Hi. Do you want to talk? Charlie Beans. No? He's not going to talk. He's just going to sit here and look cute.

I thought you were going to talk. Charlie Beans. No? He just looks like he woke up from a nap. Come on, Charlie Beans. Talk to the people. I don't think he's going to do it. Anyway, this cat is looking great. Take him away, kid. Take Charlie Beans away.

He didn't do it. He blew it. He choked. We got to get him stage ready. His mother is coming around still, but not as frequently. I don't know where the other five kittens are. Sadly, it's not my job. And I'll keep you abreast of that situation.

But I believe this cat's going to be mine, though I'm nervous. Not unlike a parent that, you know, is it time for another kitten in the house? Is it time? Am I going to have to move soon? Because I don't know if you know this, but they're going to start rationing water here soon in California. Apparently, we've got to cut back something like 15% to 25% water usage. And then in September, there's a good chunk of Los Angeles. We just cannot use.

Now he's talking. Now we just can't use water for like two weeks because they've got to repair something. That's what they're saying. I hope that's the truth. I don't know. I really don't know. All I know is that, is he going to talk?

Come here, Charlie Beans. Hey, hey, Charlie Beans. Charlie Beans. Uh-huh. There you go. Is it you just talk when you're uncomfortable? Is that it? When I hold you, when you're not in your blankie?

Come on, Charlie Beans. What do you got? What do're uncomfortable? Is that it? When I hold you, when you're not in your blankie? Come on, Charlie Beans. What do you got? What do you got? You got one, one squeak? What do I got to do, squeeze you? Come on. What do I got to squeeze you? Charlie Beans.

No, I guess not. So what was I talking about? Oh, like I read an article about the possibility of a mega flood in Los Angeles, like a possibility of a mega flood in Southern California. And you would think in normal times that would be a terrifying prospect. But in the times we're in right now, I was like, bring it. Let's ride it out. Bring the mega flood.

Hey, ow, ow, ow, ow. Hey, beans. What's up, Charlie? What's up? What? Now you're going to talk? Okay, good enough. You did it.

Congratulations. Ladies and gentlemen, Charlie Beans Roscoe, the miracle cat. But I saw this article and I was like, I'm ready for the flood. I saw this article and I was like, I'm ready for the flood. Now that's apocalyptic that, uh, that sentence classically apocalyptic. But for me, it's more about, can we just get things kind of a moisturized here? Even if it's being just poured on us out of God's bucket. Or we're just baking. We're just slowly baking. And some of my jokes are coming true. Not great.

They were not supposed to be true. First of all, fascism was supposed to be a threat, not the future. And also, you know, it's going to, I have a joke that, as that as a reference the degrees the temperature is 130 degrees fahrenheit which seems like it's it's going to happen pretty soon uh i'm in lincoln nebraska tonight at uh wherever the hell it is go find it uh the rococo theater tonight i think i've gotten everybody that could possibly want to see me in lincoln braska wherever the hell it is. Go find it. The Rococo Theater tonight. I think I've gotten everybody that could possibly want to see me in Lincoln, Nebraska, in Lincoln, Nebraska, hip to me being there.

I don't know if my old drunky hipster friend who's gone on to become a slightly anti-Semitic farmer outside of Lincoln will be there. I don't even know if he's still alive. Does anybody have eyes on Ross? Who's got eyes on Ross Broccoli?

Anybody? Anyone got eyes on Ross Broccoli? So look, folks, here's this. The presale for my new tour dates is still going on until 10 p.m. tonight. Then all general admission tickets will be on sale tomorrow. Here's where I'll be. You ready? Oklahoma City at the Tower Theater Wednesday, November 2nd. Dallas, Texas at the Majestic Theater Thursday, November 3rd.

San Antonio at the Tobin Center for the Performing Arts Friday, November 4th. And Houston at the Cullen Theater at the Wortham Center Saturday, November 5th. Then Eugene, Oregon at the Holt Center for the Performing Arts Friday, November 18th. And Bend, Oregon at the Holt Center for the Performing Arts, Friday, November 18th. And Bend, Oregon at Tower Theater, Saturday, November 19th. And in December, I'm in Asheville, North Carolina at the Orange Peel, Friday, December 2nd. And Nashville, Tennessee at the James K. Polk Theater, Saturday, December 3rd. The pre-sale password until 10 p.m. tonight is TIME. All caps, T-I-M-E. All general admission tickets on sale tomorrow at 10 p.m. tonight is TIME. All caps, T-I-M-E.

All general admission tickets on sale tomorrow at 10 a.m. Go to WTFpod.com slash tour for links and information. Holy shit. Charlie Beans. Charlie Beans Roscoe. So, look. Gerard's movie, Gerard Carmichael, who you're going to hear from shortly here, his movie is called On the Count of Three, which he directed and stars in, is now streaming

on Hulu. He's nominated for two Emmy Awards, Outstanding Guest Actor in a Comedy Series for hosting SNL, and Outstanding Writing for a Variety Special for Nathaniel. This is me talking once again to gerard carmichael it's winter and you can get anything you need delivered with uber eats well almost almost anything so no you can't get snowballs on uber eats but meatballs mozzarella balls and arancini balls yes we deliver those moose no but moose head yes because that's alcohol and we deliver that too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, groceries, and other everyday essentials.

Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+.

We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th

exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Have you ever been to like Nice Guy or any of the like the hip whatever club? No hip anything for me. If you've ever done that. So like they're too, they're made for people to see who's there. Oh, right. okay okay and not like for the individual dining experience or whatever have you been to that place um crossroads the

vegan place yeah yeah i've been there yeah that feels like that kind of yeah it's a little bright and sceny yeah yeah yeah yeah it's the lightings for selfies but do you find that when you go to those places it's mostly spectators It's a lot of spectators. This, though, the food was worth it. It was almost worth, like, some obnoxious guy came and tried to sit in the booth. Really? Yeah, just weird, wild, obnoxious L.A. crowd. There's more of that now.

Yeah. There's a lack of personal boundary thing happening. Yeah, well, people are so excited to be around people, I guess. I don't think that's it. Thrilled, like they're out the house and thrilled. I don't think so. I think it has something to do with accessibility and social media platforms have broken everyone's brain. And they just assume this intimacy with everybody.

I don't know that everybody's excited. I just think that there's no differentiation. If they follow you on whatever, they feel, everyone just feels like, I know that guy. I'm going to hang out with that guy. I do. But speaking as a family, like, if you talk to them a lot, then what else are they supposed to feel? No, I get it. Believe me.

But if you're, like, constantly engaging, it would kind of feel like if I were a fan. Yeah. Like I'm very thankful for whatever fans I have. Sure. Because I think we have a great relationship. Like a tilt of the hat. Sure. Like in New York City.

Yeah. Point. Point. You get it. You get it. I drink my coffee. Right. Have a nice day.

They're not there. But are they respectful mostly? Very. Sure. And even like picture. It's like sweet brief exchanges that I'm like thankful for. And I think it's because like, I imagine like they don't feel, recently people felt closer to me, but like they don't feel as familiar as like they would someone who- Has a podcast twice a week.

Yeah. Yeah. People have heard you go through everything no but just hours and hours of like all of your feelings documented like so i see you on the street if i've listened to all of your show it's like oh my god are you all right yeah exactly i wonder if he got his toilet fixed yeah yeah all of it though yeah no i get it and i you have to you And I have to sort of act graciously around that. But I imagine that at this point, the fans you have are respectful, some inspired, some grateful.

So it's really relative to what you put out in the world. And you've always been pretty honest and now more honest. So I think people appreciate that. And you're not attracting guys like are like, there he is! Yeah, yeah. There's not that. Well, the person last night wasn't even there for me. They were there for my friend

and sat in the booth next to her. And it was just wild, the assumption. Like, the assumption of like, because I do feel you, like, that crossing the line. Was she a comic? Yeah, and an actress and just like. But everyone knows her.

People know, like I mean, and. Tiffany? No, no. Well, she would just be like

singing karaoke with people at the, like going to dinner with Tiff, like. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Is, you're signing up for the show. Like you're signing up for the commitment. Yeah, yeah. If it happened with Tiff,

I would just be like, yeah, we're not dancing yet. Anyway, the restaurant was great. What's it called? Mother Wolf. All right. Atmosphere of six out of ten, five probably. So I got to wear shades? Is that what you're telling me? You should wear shades.

You're going to get attacked. People love you. No. I never have that problem. It's always sort of like, why does that sad lady keep looking at me? No, but you, like, because you've gotten more famous. You get increasingly more famous. I think I've found my level.

I don't know if I'm getting increasingly more famous, but there is a variety of things people could know me from. That's what I never know. Are you a podcast person? Are you a glow person? Are you a standup person? But you haven't found your level. You're still doing stuff. Of course, I'm constantly busy.

Bill Withers and like- Oh yeah, yeah. Doing that song again? Well, just in Georgia. Ain't no sunshine. Well, I'm saying he just like left. Yeah. He was like, and then I'm out.

And then just like left and went to- I think about that all the time though. Yeah, we have that option. We not you you're just starting you're starting no i'm not doing that but i'm saying you're not any social media problems you don't do tiktok or anything no i have a a private ig for my friends that i like post yeah but that's it boys i was gonna ask you about tiktok but you can't help me. I mean, I see it. My friends send me, and I look at all of them. I just got verified on it, and I'm old. Oh, that's cool.

What do you post? What do you put on there? I put anything on there. What do you want to put on there? I don't know. I haven't even started yet. I don't even know. I just need someone to walk me through getting set up, so I don't mind looking like an old

idiot. Well, that could be the thing. I'm kind of thinking that, but i want to do it on purpose i don't you can't you can't you gotta you gotta trust fall into what you don't know that's probably true and just try and it'll be much funnier if you're actually trying yeah maybe that's true maybe that's true i don't know how to do this and you're just feeling it i think that would be the way to go yeah so i watched this new movie last night yeah now what what's the story behind that because i thought you i didn't know i thought initially that you wrote it but you didn't and it's been it's been around for a while right this uh made it a couple

years count of three on the count of three yeah on the count of three do it during covid uh did it uh reshoots during covid and i started shooting it before like right before covet um so how'd it come about a couple years ago it was a script that uh ari kacher who i've worked with a lot in ryan uh welch had written these are producers these are writers these are writers and how'd you know him um ari i met years ago he was actually actually doing stand-up for a little bit, like open mic. And he quit. He jumped out of the game. He's a writer.

But we met, and I appreciated him because I remember seeing him at the Sunset Grill. And he would sign up and then go wait in his car. Yeah. And then he would go up, and then he would leave. Yeah. Like immediately. He didn't talk to anybody. And I was like, Oh, I,

I want to be friends with him. Yeah. Yeah. Even though friendship doesn't seem to be his thing. Like I, like I, I, he doesn't have that weird neediness.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's just, it was about the thing he was working on. I really appreciate it. Yeah. And so we've worked on a lot of things together.

He worked on Carmichael show, uh, and, and is a producer and, uh've worked on a lot of things together he worked on carl michael show uh and and is a producer and uh writer on most of the things i've done um but i really love this script i love this idea um just because it it felt weirdly aspirational like it was rooted in the thought of having a last day like you know it's easy to get hung up on the suicide aspect of it like oh it's a suicide whatever but it's really just about like two people who have made a decision to end it right but it's not but there's nothing it's not founded in joy you know but that's. But that's, what was interesting to me was this idea of having a last day. And what would that actually play out like? You ever seen the movie, The Bucket List, like Morgan Freeman, Jack Nicholson?

I don't know why I saw it, but I did see it. But it's usually this aspirational. This has been done before. This isn't the first last day movie. You're skydiving and it's these aspirational things and reconciling. And I started playing out what actual reconciliation would mean. Like with a father. With your loved ones, with those around you and yourself. I mean, this is you trying to reconcile with yourself by making this decision.

Oh, I get it. So the decision to end it, what precludes that is that I'm going to settle all my business. Yes. Right. Yes. And that's the excuse to settle all your business. The film is about that day, yes. Because theoretically, you could have settled your business

through the character with your father at another time. But again, you make this decision. Sure, I get it. But the decision made on behalf of the other guy, I mean, I'm just listening to you. I'm not arguing with you.

But I think that for me, what it was about was, you know, resolvable problems and seemingly unresolvable problems. So because the other character, once it unfolds, what his issue is and what may be at the heart of his particular emotional and mental problems, it borders on unresolvable. Yes, yes.

And how he looks at his whole life in relation to that is overwhelming. And your character, you're sort of like well this guy you know is having a hard time owning up to responsibilities yeah and he has some unresolvable problems but they are resolvable yes yes yes so yes but listen it's not about that's 30,000 feet above it resolvable unresolved no yeah okay it's about the actual feeling of being in it and everything feels unresolvable if it were resolved our problems that the immediate ones like hunger right this is result we can see the resolution in that not being able to see it and more importantly not having the motivation to resolve them sure like wallowing in that right but like they had but if

it was just if it was glib you they wouldn't be empathetic characters because you wouldn't have anything invested yeah because both of you remain you know empathetic you know you you you're connected to you and and in however it ends there there's a certain amount of of you know violent justice but but you never end up you know really disliking of those guys who think any of their actions were unjustified. That was a good spoiler saver, too. I like how you did it. Violent justice is how I would like that written in the synopsis on Hulu. I've been doing this a while.

Yeah, that was a great, wow, wow. That was like Casey Kasem level disc jockey. I'd like people to see the movie. I think you did a good job directing it and I think I'd like to track back to

because the last time I talked to you, I don't even remember what it was, but when it was, it must have been for the Carmichael show. Yeah.

It was at the other house. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, I was kind of rolling on this sort of celebration of all things Gerard at that time, you know,

from all the comedy community. Oh, that's funny. After a year of like, this guy came out comedy community. Oh, that's funny. After a year of like, this guy came out of nowhere. Oh, that's so funny. That's so funny. But, you know, What do you mean?

It was just like, it was just too much. I'd imagine that feel. You were one of those guys that I'd heard about. And like, I don't, like, I'm not, my finger's not really

on the pulse out in the world that much. But, you know, like, Comedy is a small, it's a small community. pulse out in the world that much. But, you know, like. Well, comedy is a small, it's a small community. Bigger than it used to be. I mean, yeah, yes and no. But, like, yeah, it is in that, like, you kind of have this access, like, the way the internet is this massive, un-understandable thing. But the community as we know it, and as we know, especially at that time.

Well, we know the guys that are at a certain level. And then there's another 10,000 people. I remember talking. I had a three-hour talk with Patrice on the comedy show. You mean Patrice talked to you for three hours? Yeah, exactly. Exactly. A three-hour lecture.

I'm sorry. Let me rephrase that. The philosophy of Patrice? Yeah. You got the one-on-one philosophy? It was my first time meeting him. And it was right before he died. three-hour lecture i'm sorry let me rephrase that the philosophy of patrice yeah oh you got you got the one-on-one it was my first time meeting him and it was right before he died and like he walks up to me and he's just like oh i heard about you and you could hear the like sure the the skepticism and almost like this day in his voice like oh you're supposed to be the new young chapelle

nigga yeah and i'm like I'm just like a kid. I'm like, nah. I'm like, yeah, okay. I guess that sounds like something someone would have said. Well, I think I talked to Neil and it was just sort of like, to me at that time, you just emerged from living in a car or something. The way that Neil was talking about it at the time, it's like he just showed up and people have been letting him sleep at their house.

That's not untrue. Yeah. Like you had a lot of support from dudes that were established and smart dudes. It's a good sign that you may be funny is like the funny comics never leave. Right. Like Mike in it and whatever. Sure. The ones that were really funny never had to go back home because someone, like everyone accommodated.

Everyone figured it out. The ones that were really funny never had to go back home because someone like everyone accommodated. Everyone figured it out. And also they had no they felt that you have to have no choice in your mind. Yeah. Well, but but I'm saying like Angelo Bowers, my friend, was so funny at these open mics. Like when we first started out, there's no chance in hell we would have let Angelo go home if he was from Modesto. If Angelo slept on couches and he would have done so as long I didn't even have a home and I would

have made sure. What I'm saying is that because there's no other thing you want to do. It's in your mind and heart. But I'm saying we, even me as an outsider, I wouldn't have let him. He was an asset. He's good. How are you not going to let somebody? We wouldn't have let

him but like i've never heard of that at least when i was coming up through it's not like such an old man but like but like like he passed away he was in the car yeah yeah he passed away was that the car crash yeah the car crash yeah yeah yeah um 2012 terrible yeah terrible terrible just right at the start of his potential so so like yeah true well yeah you were oh it's okay no i i mean you can but but i'm saying but i'm saying yeah i'm saying like the the world accommodated like he slept on couches because you we didn't want to see him leave no one wanted to see him leave right you also have a crew you know i don't know if it's all based on this sort of like let me tell. Let me tell you something. If Edge wasn't funny, like, listen, bro, like, you know, take a train, figure it out, come back. Crew or no crew, like, who has room for that? inspirational peer group where there's mutual respect and there's suggestions being made.

And there's also support being given just by virtue of, of a common kind of, you know, ambition. Yeah. Kind of. I mean, me and my friends were dogs. Like, like that was, we all are, was like based off of like competition, competitive and gossipy. Yeah.

Yeah. But not even that, but just we, cause we had nothing. We didn't even have anything to gossip about. Like, so like. Reallyy. Yeah, yeah, but not even that, because we had nothing. We didn't even have anything to gossip about. Really? Yeah, well, there's always something like this. But it really was based off, oh, what I've seen you do. You've seen the potential, and that camaraderie, I think, was built in competition. Well, it's great when you have a few guys or women or people that you know that inspire you. And also you're like, holy fuck, that's a good joke.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, where'd that come from? Yeah. But you stayed with it. I guess my question is, there was the initial arc of you where, you know, you were doing, you know, straight up stand up, which you still do. And then, you know, you got that special with Spike and you did that. And then like, how, what is the arc after that? And do, how do you look at the opportunities you had, you know, now after Nathaniel, you know, judging

against the, the Gerard I knew who wasn't out at the time and the material you were doing at that time, do you look back on any of that and think like, I was stifled? Yeah, I mean, I was stifled in my own personal life. I'm not being truthful. I wasn't being truthful at the time. So that is stifling that's a huge handicap yeah uh to to especially in a an art form where you're presumed to be speaking the truth some of us sure some of us but like you know it's jokes yeah yeah true true yeah um but it's how i did it. Right, exactly.

So it was definitely stifling. Do you see any of your point of view coming from a place where there was a lack of self-acceptance or shame that was driving it? Yeah, yeah. My point of, again, it was an extension of my life. So I was ignoring it, denying it, all those things. Yeah. ignoring it, denying it, all those things. The probably classic cycle of someone trying to, dealing with shame.

And the material reflected that. I was definitely, I mean, I think I was trying to, you know, I was trying to be interesting, and so I just avoided it. I just kind of avoided talking about it as much as I could. About the struggle? Yeah, well, that wasn't where I was at. uh so much dealing with an internal struggle right as much as it's these kind of nice um pithy uh ideas but provocative ideas i mean provocative ideas and and and i i was excited to say them like it's not like any of it was false like the enthusiasm was there like it's it's how i felt i but i think a lot of it was a result of uh protecting what i was hiding yeah you know like a lot of it was very very very defensive

i also i rebelled against like um like sympathy any i i don't like the word support yeah me neither um i moved to la no but i moved to la part of the reason i moved to la to start like i started in la yeah uh was to get away from any like i could have had 10 friends in north carolina come to a show and we're gonna clap for you anyway like you know i can't stand when people say we're gonna come to support yeah i know what i'm doing no let me fail miserably sure yeah just be there you know but but don't even like i don't need you like i had a conversation with my agents i switched agencies and like it's gonna hate that i'm saying this publicly but i had an agent that was like that flew to montreal to come see me like a

couple weeks ago like a couple weeks ago i was doing a show uh um there and if i'm doing a show like i'm not talking to you dude like he like texted me excited for the show tonight i'm like what the fuck does this have to do with the yeah yeah ice or rice yeah wait don't tell me you're here and don't yeah i don't need you what the fuck do you what what purpose do you have here well that's it that's all the montreal's for now is for them to go drink yeah yeah yeah but but anyway that's an extreme situation but i'm sure even at the beginning like i i i so even a lot of my act you know as it relates to me like i rebelled again i think i said things that would piss black people off because i didn't want to get like, oh, he's the poor black kid that

could whatever. So my perspective was at the time I would have probably thought of it as like aspirational. So I had material like I can't wait to be a Republican and I'm I'm going to. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Whatever you think I am on its head and like I'm going to show you I'm smart. It was a lot of. Well, I think what you do and I used to and I've talked about it before with myself is that when you decide on comedy it's you and that's it and you know whatever you're coming at it with who it's you decide you have to figure out what your space is on that stage you have to you and the way you do that sometimes is by pushing people away so you have it yeah you know and and then you find out who you are well i'm saying you know as far as me like i was like you know i was trying to show that i was smart i think i understood the craft pretty early on you know like like the came out of nowhere is

probably more i remember by my second mic, I felt like I got it. Right. Like, oh, okay. So you were a prodigy. Kind of. Yeah. That was the word on the street. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Kind of. But I've rebelled against it too. One, like it's like celebrating youth. Like, hey, it's not, you know, this is like so brief, bro. And it's like, who cares? I felt that way i felt that way like um anytime i even thought about those things like because if those stats like someone was like you know you're the youngest person to get past at the cellar and i'm like bro that stat means something to me does it it's over no i mean it's like a nice thing to hear in the hallway once

right like oh okay cool right but like what like i'm gonna hold on to that like i'm gonna hold on to it because you know the one person that somebody made like the one person that says that in a good way is you know the you know behind them is like a hundred people saying like that fucking kid yeah yeah of course of course well comedy like of Well, comedy, like, of course they won't. Like, comedians are all, you know, like the story of the Odyssey. They're all suitors, like, trying to thread the boat. Right, and then you come home and the dog recognizes you. Yeah, exactly. And you kill all the suitors.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. That's the game. That's the game. Hey, boy, I got to kill these guys. I'll be back in a little while. But in doing, like, what was the process? You know, what happened ultimately with the Carmichael show? I'd like to know more about, you know, your sort of journey to producing.

Because I never understand how that happens. You know, so you did this stand-up special and then the carmichael show happened and did you who guided you through that process of knowing that you know you could you know start to build you know a production company or build that place for yourself um nobody really. I think it's all just an extension of my. I'm trying to find a way to say I always I'm trying to find a way that sounds free of ego to say I always just do what I want to do. Mostly just do what I want to do. Anything I produce, anything I work on is an extension of a friendship, conversations that I've had on my couch or over dinner or whatever that kind of grow and become a thing. So did it start with the Carmichael show? Well, Carmichael show was originally, I wasn't going to do a show for myself. I was just doing stand-up.

And I always, especially at that point, it's like they're offering shows. I only did one track of mine. Yeah. I didn't want to do that. Right. I didn't even, I hadn't even filmed anything for television at that point. Yeah. Deliberately.

I was like, I just wanted to work and get better. You know, the opportunity is presenting itself. Yada, yada, yada. You get the show um it just kind of became an outlet for my perspective uh it was fun to write with ari i think of the show mostly as my performance of it in my living room like i think of it mostly like lines back back and forth uh it was fun to try and get wild shit on air like it was like like it was like i always heard what you couldn't do and what they wouldn't allow and so it was like it was very fun to like i did all the things yeah yeah like i did all the things under the guys

not the guy but in the in the you pushed it yeah but in in the wrapped up in a network sitcom with the studio audience and that was really fun to me to like yeah try and have like a an adult show in this format like yeah um and then you know it was over but you felt like what was it two two seasons uh technically three one short, but yeah. But you felt like I did it. I'm done with this format. Yeah, well, just like that's as it, like I couldn't go further and still be excited about it myself.

Yeah, I get it. Like this is, I get, I would, we did I think 32 episodes. Yeah. Maybe three or four of them are bad yeah um and then is that funny you can't like you know you know which ones work yeah oh yeah but and i know where i lost it and i know where where i'm telling you why like stop i know where it's removed from the fire of an original idea yeah like those episodes that are bad are bad because

there wasn't me in my living room at its core going like and then this happens and then i come in with cosby tickets and then like that like those ideas aren't flowing so it kind of now it's an episode of tv i don't want to do an episode of tv yeah like the same you don't want it to be just a refillable who care i don't want it like stand up like my special i don't want it to be just a refillable. Who cares? Stand-up, my special, I don't want to do a special. Yeah. What do you want to do? I don't care about doing a special. I care about, as pretentious as it'll sound, capturing an idea.

I care about that. Because I know that's the only shit that works. Everything else fails. Everything else is meaningless. It's why we know people who are in high positions, who hate their jobs, who go to work every day, who have some show that they do nightly, meaningless it's why we know people who are in high positions who hate their jobs who like go to work every day who have some show that they do nightly or have some show that they do daily and they don't like it right i don't think it fails no no no i'm what for my criteria of success sure

i like you know some people uh i hate to throw them under the bus but like but like but like some people even make money look sad like Nick Cannon. Have you ever seen Nick Cannon and you just don't want to be Nick Cannon? Nick Cannon can make consistently a hundred million dollars more than me a year. And I just would never

do a radio show to your talk show to your like, nah, I would never want to do that. But that's for me by my own personal criteria of success. But my criteria of success is very personal it's tracking growth trying to challenge myself in a way that like so so if i'm doing an episode of tv and it's like oh he booked two dates or whatever the fuck yeah he sitcom shit or even if it's something provocative that i don't fucking feel, it's worthless.

Sure. Like, it's meaningless. Right. Why do it? I don't want to do it. I get it. I wouldn't do it. Yeah.

So in terms of, you know, you've made public statements about Chappelle in terms of, you know, how he's locked onto this topic for reasons that are

relatively unexplainable. I can't explain it unless it's like religion. I don't know what it is or some sort of mental glitch. But you're conscious of the, you're aware of what we're up against as people who believe in tolerance and progress, people, that that the underdog whoever they may be you know deserves to have a life without being you know trampled upon yeah so well so my like you know uh i don't even say my thoughts on chapelle is merely is coming one from a fan's perspective sure of course of someone who just has clearly a brilliant mind yeah and knowing

that he's an artist right because i not you know i was talking about this with a friend about like you kind of do have to draw the line right like yeah like and i don't even mean this pretentiously but this is the place to even say it but like yeah some people are making artistic yeah exactly so i feel comfortable but but some people are making artistic choices and some people aren't. Right. And sometimes there's a frustration like comics who like and I'm saying this respectfully that like are taking the route of. I'm posting a clip every day and doing the thing or like me do crowd work. Yeah.

Well, because obviously the material has to be diluted because you have to do this every day. So you can't be an artist. You don't have the – and that may not even be your goal. No, no, I get it. I get it. Art's like – there's only a few of us. Well, I'm saying Chappelle is an artist. He is an artist and very clearly an artist.

Yes, true. And I'm saying from the same perspective of like if – I love love jay-z's blueprint one right love blueprint two right if blueprint three if all blueprints were him talking about trans people i'd be like hey jay like what's up i'm a fan you know like so that that is just more because i know i get it he has such an expansive mind so that that came from a place of love like no i i totally understand that but what what the next the next step from love is sort of like what's going on man yeah yeah but that only certain people will ask that quite comedians get caught up in like you know it's the illusion of it's a fight for freedom of expression yeah no no it's not i don't i don't i think like you know, it's the illusion of it's a fight for freedom of expression.

And you know, I don't, I don't, I think like, you know, it's a battle that Neil, Neil had a funny thing. He's just talking about like comedians talking about the battle that they have.

He's like, what battle people are turning to Rogan for health advice. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. What meat do I eat?

Yeah. Yeah. Like, like the, like the battle. So everyone has like deals. It's no, it's that, that, that is not what it's about. That's almost the new hack.

Is that like, I don't know if I can say this. But it's an excuse to keep it exterior, I guess is what I'm trying to say. It's all the monster. But it's also drawing lines. I mean, because there's no pushback. There's no anti-anti-woke really you know you got the anti-woke you've got this consolidation of a point of view that's easily co-opted you know by right-wing fuckheads yeah you know that that really stifles you know uh a kind of um

uh cultural progress yes and and there's no strong voice on the other side i mean so when you speak out or even when you do a show like riel, despite whatever feedback that's going to get, that is a unique voice standing up against this very myopic, small spectrum bullshit of what it means to have freedom of speech. So the fact that there is no real opposition and that there is definitely a line being drawn in this community and in comedy is disconcerting. Well, I'm saying, look, there's plenty of opposition, right, in the world. Kind of, in the world. Oh, yeah, sure. And in your own mind. Okay.

I just, you know, I, as an artist, like, I don't, I like it when the danger is real. Yeah, for me. For you. For me, for me, right? And so, and even the art, like, that I am attracted to is, like, when the danger is real. And it's a lot, like, there's an air of presumed danger that I believe is false. Sure, sure. You know what I mean? Yeah, Yeah. Yeah. Self-importance.

Yeah. In a way. Yeah. Like, you know, I don't know. I might get canceled. Like no one's even here. Or you would dream to. Yeah. You would dream to. Because you want that kind of attention. Who doesn't want that kind of attention? Yeah. So let's go back to it. Like what I was getting at though, in terms of your decisions around, like, you know, what was the decision around doing drew special without an audience? The first one. Um, I saw him and like kind of my first thought was that it, it almost felt like soliloquy.

Oh, okay. Like, like, and, and I was, I was just curious, like,

it felt like it was all in his own head and he right suffered from like hearing loss his whole life and it was just like and he's such a dynamic performer and it was like oh like oh he would do this if no one were in the room right like that that's really where the thought right right the thought came from yeah and i was curious would it work if no one were in the room yeah being truthful is probably something like i wanted to do right but it just as the kind of musical chairs lined up it's like working with drew drew had a sweat and it was just like a oh this idea so like it was probably i'm very proud of it but it's probably even more suited for me right you know like it came from even my feelings at the time.

Now I have a need for the audience, and we'll get to that later. But that's my relationship with the audience has changed. But how does that happen? Like, what was the transition? I didn't do stand-up for a long time. What were you doing? So, just, you know. Was it during the pandemic you mean before i i after

eight i i did i was very happy with eight yeah and it felt like the max of where that could go yeah like it was like okay like i i was happy with the material the i thought it was i was happy with my work with bow i i really thought we, I just didn't see, I didn't see, I was like, okay, like, you know, me doing stand-up in that way, I reached the ceiling. But, okay, but was that a stand-up issue or was that a personal issue? That you, you know, you knew you had to deal with something in yourself That wasn't you weren't ready to do stand-up about what I'm saying at the time Yeah, like that was my feeling on just from a purely Observate observing because and this is this is all it's all personal right?

It's all personal like my view on my career and my think so So like how I felt like, you know, at that point, Twitter swallowing up the comedian, you know, like Twitter, like Twitter is like when you go to McDonald's and you see the screen. Sure. Yeah. Where the cashiers used to be like, you know, like Twitter's relationship to the comedian. Yeah. And it's that limited a menu. Exactly. But yeah. But like all of it, like the Internet's relationship to comedy as we knew it.

OK. So, you know, I was laughing at shit on the Internet like everybody else. I was like and I was like, I got nothing to add to this. Yeah. You know, I really was feeling that way kind of constantly. And yes, there were things I was running from in my life, my own sexuality, my family's history, all these things like I'm running from that kind of existed separate. Right. So even. But it influenced the other thing. Eddie Murphy say in a Rolling Stone interview once that he was just a man of leisure now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was, like, smoking weed and, like, playing reggae music. And I was like, okay, I did that for, like, four years.

I was just like, just till the money ran out. Just like, all right, well then. But you were working on shit. I was always writing, always working. But I mean the personal thing. Like, because, like, you know, I. But, oh, yes. So free associative therapy, all of that.

You did that? Yeah, still, yes. So free associative therapy, all of that. You did that? Yeah, still. But facing things and trying to have access to bravery in my real life and have brave moments where I can have conversations that were difficult. What's that? Was it all prep to sort of like face? Well, everything we do is all prep but you know i guess what i'm looking at but i'm an artist so i make home videos i make sermon on the mount like these are like peaks into like and there's small things on hbo that like i i'm happy i was able to make and have

an outlet for it but just like this is all for me just exploring like taking cameras home and like try like no thought of an audience no no no it's just what i wanted to see like home videos is so specifically me it sounds like me it is sure like that's such a personal tucked away like like it's like an album cut that like an artist made there's like a demo that's like yeah yeah yeah yeah comes out later yeah yeah exactly you're like oh man that's when he was oh that's yeah that was just the thing that i had released on hbo but it was for me right um and me trying to come out to my mom like these were very scary things for me but it was like i didn't send it to press when i released it i didn't do press for it like i just was like leave it there this is it and

it was also it was for me it was to show my family themselves, all these types of things. But all of this is me exploring my capacity as a filmmaker, who I am on camera, my ability to be truthful on camera, who I am as a performer, all these things, like exploring these things. But I just need to make stuff. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And what was, what was the impact, you know,

on the, on the family, like before, uh, with the, with the, the documentaries, with the home videos and sermon on the mountain, what was,

how did it change your relationship? It's like, it's like having the realest conversation you could have, but like on HBO, right? Cause it's like, like having a real conversation and it, it draws lines in the sand. Like like you know i'm gay my mom

believes in god and to us that's a we're on opposite sides of a big hill right and so like any public declaration of that any the things that i'm making are just you know uh it's it has the same effect that the conversation would have i I just need to make something of it. I need to make art. Yeah, I get that. I get that. But ultimately, you know, needing to make art and having the platform that you have.

I mean, there's a lot of people that need to make art that nobody sees really, or seven people see, but they still need to do it and they do it. So at some point you realize that you need to make art, but you also realize that you know thousands of people are going to see it uh whether you think about those people or not you realize it so there is a bigger declaration to it yeah yeah so like yeah like home videos is probably yeah in the thousands of like you know that it was it was made with less

consideration than right you'd say. I know. I'm not saying you're playing to them, but like what has been, see, because like somebody in what you're doing in your personal bravery, in your struggle to figure out a way how to be brave in your personal life, and then to sort of live in your truth, you know,

that is an inspirational struggle. Like you, there's something about wanting to express yourself and wanting to be an artist, but you have to be in your heart. I think some level you know wanting you know people to know that it's okay to live your truth. I think my whole career. Right. But now in being truthful and connecting, I'm like, oh, oh, I see what this can mean to people and I see how it can connect. And I wasn't doing material like that before. It was like I was trying to be funny or whatever, but I wasn't like doing that. And so now I am imbued with a sense of responsibility in my work that I was leading to like what all these things like leading it was leading sure of course right yeah but like it seemed one what were the discussions you know with but because like you

know rathaniel you know as you know people are going to interpret that you know whether you read the criticism or not or whether you read the graves or whatever you read about it you know what whether you read the criticism or not or whether you read the raves or whatever you read about it you know the idea the i the primary idea is this is very personal it's a great performance it's powerful and then the other side of that is but is it stand-up is he a stand-up are we still doing stand-up yeah you know and i mean but i think it's supposed to have like it's supposed to spark those questions i don't know i know that but before i get before we get to that though what what what what were your discussions with Bo, you know, after you did the two documentaries, you know, and you're moving towards this material. And I don't I I guess I don't know how much you were working it out in the clubs leading up to it or how much of it was a public conversation in the clubs. But it proved to be the wrong environment. So then I doing shows uh removed from the clubs like i

like aware like oh just in the small theaters yeah just yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah so what was the conversation with beau you know in terms of what your intentions were as as a director to to the um so i think me and beau are i think we're both obsessed with television from YouTube to, you know, broadcast to whatever, just like the medium, right. Obsessed with,

uh, uh, events, experiences, these types of things. So like the conversation is always, it starts on what is the show, right?

Like, like we, like we start in a very simple place um in terms of look or intent like what is the show why are people gonna watch what is what are we watching yeah what are we watching yeah like what are we watching right and and and i just speaking for myself i like i i think i've always done uh stand-up for these specials to capture. That's supposed to be what we work towards. But I'm making that. I'm always making that. Yeah, sure.

Because I know that's the biggest piece. I don't really tour. Again, at this part of the reason, it probably begs a lot of questions. Like, well, what is this? Like, what is the, you what but the world is changing and but i but i can tell i could as a guy who's who who's the comic and touring extensively right now or whatever my life is yeah i mean i can watch rathaniel and now after you like like i would have said like he hasn't really worked no well but it's not but it's not not working at all. I don't, I don't tour in that sense of like, because I'm not doing it.

I'm not doing it to sharpen it for like, I'm not, this isn't. You want to have that looseness. It's where I'm not a politician. This isn't a stump speech. It's still a show. Yeah. But my show isn't shaped by jokes. But it's still shaped by a through line.

It's shaped by a narrative. Yeah. But it's not, it's not shaped by jokes. I get it. It's funny, but it's not shaped by a through line. It's shaped by a narrative, but it's not shaped by jokes. I get it. It's funny, but it's not shaped by jokes. And if you don't shape it by jokes, then out of necessity because of whatever your heart says in the moment, if you need to find the funny, you'll find it. Yes, but I'm only responding to, so like you're saying working it out. That's a different standard. I don't I don't do the I actually I sometimes toy with the idea of like, oh, maybe like just call it something.

I go back and forth. Sometimes I'm like, all right, well, then just call what I do something else because I don't even really care to be in the conversation sometimes like about comedy. Yeah. Just like just like, all right. Well, because it's so personal.'m like then i do something else and i sometimes i'm at a venue known for comedy doing it and sometimes i'm at the blue note or whatever but this is my show and as far as shows go put it in a different pile right you gotta work it out but then but then i go then then my mind goes back to like no no like like because comedians are a frustrated bunch but i love it and i love the art form a lot and my true intention is to expand the art form and i don't want to see it die i don't want to see it die and i don't think people know that they're dead i watch comedy and i feel like oh this is dead like oh oh we're like these are ghosts i like watch specials. I'm like, oh. Zombies. It's worked out by the old definition. I get it.

The shit is already stale once it hits the TV. I get it. But it's dead. Because there's no show. There's no core. There's no fire. There's no light. There's no passion.

Well, you got to leave that room, man. So what I'm saying is I know what the art form, i in my mind see it like its potential i i i think it can be and has room for like growth outside of the traditional expectations i get it but like i mean i understand what you're doing and i and i you know and i you know i'm from the same school of thought yeah that you know you you improvise and you work your shit out publicly. But we're doing something. No, we're doing different things, I think, though. Maybe.

I don't know if I'm, I don't think I'm gay. No, but I don't think it has anything to do with that. And I think you're an incredible craftsman who's let people in to yourself. I'm not, I'm doing something like, I'm like telling the truth on stage. And like, I say this humbly, but it is just a very, it's a high wire act. Well, that's all, but no, but it's, but I'm saying it's, it's not, but you're not, you're not giving me the credit because I am living in a world where I'm not that great a craftsman. And all I do is tell the truth and hope that I have to contextualize things now where I say I cannot speak broadly.

I cannot speak in generalizations. So if you identify with my story then that's for you no but you have more of a you have i think it's like you have more of and i'm not saying this is not i think you have more of a structured like a more traditional like if i see you on the talk show right i see you on like uh uh fallon yeah or something right i know how to do that you know how to do it but you but and and i and i mean this because i love when like martin short is on it and like and burr yeah he has sure and it's like this like you know where you're going but you know where you're going right and i'd see and i as a performer i'll watch you and i go like oh mark knew oh and he brought it

back and he's the callback of the thing sure what i'm saying is i'm my show yeah i i think i'm i'm relying on a a set just something a different set of right skills i'm being present in your yeah yeah yeah but still shaped around the show it's very important that it's a show and that it's crafted as such but it's just it just strikes a different tone you don't want to know what's gonna happen yeah yeah yeah yeah so so that's why i'm saying like and this is just me just it's in response to the term of like working it out like well what does that mean you know what i mean like like what does it mean to work a thing out like because part of like like my my career you know i think i was trying to prove a lot like my first two specials

yeah we could go as deep as saying trying to prove it i could make it as a straight man make it without like relying on any crutches like it's always removal of crutches i've right like trusting my own internal brilliance and i i could do that so i can make it these jokes my jokes are better than your jokes and these things and i made it as that i did all i did those things yeah right like i just for me it that doesn't maximize my potential right is what i've learned yeah that i'm funnier i'm better if once i cross that line like and and i i think i've been begging to do that my whole life but i just didn't have the the it's what it is it's the knowledge you know once you get to a

place where you can let go of the expectation to repeat it yeah that's not your job that you know you find the real freedom right yeah it's it's definitely um you know it's it's me finding urgency and presenting that as a show so when bo uh when you guys he did eight too i guess right but the new one at the blue note the vibe was you know you know you're just coming in off the street you're gonna lay it down so but not even is the vibe was like walking through the snow to say the thing i was terrified of like you know what i mean like the like the vibe was were you truly terrified of course yeah my i came out after 30 bro like i like i i thought i would i would have rather died than have someone find out. Like, these are true words. I'm not even saying it as a, like, I, that's what I'm saying.

For me, the special was, it's not even about coming out. And my act, it's not even about that. I think it's easy to go, like, well, it's the coming out special, whatever. Sure. Whatever makes comedians feel better. I was facing a fear on stage, for real. I was terrified every time I said it. I dealt with gasp in Atlanta, like people getting angry.

People like that because it's going against my audience. You said it a couple of times. Well, just again, it's a show. It's still a show. And I did the road, but it's more it's presenting the show. It's not like so I had reactions that were like so you had once you did this special you you had you you had experience with how it was being received yeah yeah yeah yeah and i and i knew that it goes against my audience expectation and that's also

part of the thing that we wanted to capture because it's so rare you get that like i have an audience coming in like you said, Gerard as you know him. Yeah. And I'm presenting something else. And that's like, oh, we get to capture that on camera. Right. That's an exciting thing.

So the show is about your fear? The show is about, the synopsis could be Man Who's Afraid of Heights Jumps Out of an Airplane on HBO. Like, that could be the name of the show. That was what we were capturing. So it's like,

like, that's what I'm saying. Again, Hum saying again i don't see people don't really do that like work out their actual fears on state like that's what i'm my recent show is more about that like not many but there's a couple that yeah it's having like three times in the history of comedy yeah yeah yeah maybe yeah like but but it's not like because it's most people shouldn't do that. I don't think most people should do that, but I'm saying it's just what I've chosen to do. And I've used the base of my career as a trellis. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

As you should. How many did you record? Two? Four. Four? How many were included record? Two? Four. How many were included in the special?

Like I'm saying, did you pull from four or did you just use one show? I don't know actually what the full number was. Yeah. Outside, I'm just curious because I watched it and outside of my you know my my experience

with it yeah was you know exactly what you're talking about but ultimately like uh like um there was part of me that's sort of like i wish there was a closer you know like yeah sure that just like you know the the sort of pensive unresolved situationensive, unresolved situation, which remains unresolved, I imagine, with your mother, is what it is. Yeah. So there was no... Yeah, that's the show. That's it. Well, that was the show.

I know. Again, I'm like, yeah. But asking you as a comic, because there are jokes in there. Yeah, of course. Now, which one's your favorite one? I don't have a favorite one. No, I mean,

what did you like saying the most? Come on. Yeah, I mean, when you're up there, you know, when you're about to drop one, it gets it.

Well, cause I had never told stories before. Of personal types. Right. Okay. Even, even period. I've never like a storyteller.

So, Rothaniel's my first time. Oh, okay. Like telling stories on stage. Like, it was my own. So, Rothaniel's my first time like telling stories on stage. Like it's my own. So, I'm saying that to say that like all of them kind of feel the same in that way. I thought that the best moment, like and I'm weird about this stuff. Because like even like when I watch, like I haven't watched all of Chappelle's specials. But like for me, like one of the best bits that he did in the last however many specials that I saw

was that one about Anthony Bourdain's killing himself. Oh, yeah. It's a great intro. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The one where he's talking about his friend in the photo. He would never think about that. Yeah, yeah. It's alive.

To me, a genius bit in terms of entitlement class. It's all in there and it wasn't his intention uh but for me the the the moment where you know where you you don't necessarily want to be gay right and that the moment in the shower i think was that well that's because you're a straight man like that's such a straight man favorite oh straight guys love that because it's me reaching out to them like i'm that that's literally like an olive but the moment where you sort of like oh my god yeah but as that's a pocket of an olive branch to like a that's me holding your hand through it like i mean i'm not that but that's no no but i'm saying i'm saying to like uh

yeah no that's definitely like a classic the straight man classic right well I mean why but but I think that whether it's straight or not straight I think that whether it's just you know cis culture in general yeah you know to to to bring in it's a window yeah that moment yeah it's a window of of like wow but what's one of the only moments where it's like i'm giving you the experience yeah like you know yeah yeah oh that's interesting yeah yeah so that in a sense it's more uh it's almost it's it's it's it's exactly indicative of the kind of comedy you used to do yeah it's moments of that it's moments of like oh and now literal observation it's an observation exactly i'm outside of myself giving you the experience of being me for a moment.

And that's a tool. So how do you feel as an artist and as a person now? Do you feel relieved? No. All right. Good. For what? Well, I mean that there's something that had a burden for for as long as it was a burden is lifted so maybe it relieves not

you know like that at least you can own yourself completely i mean maybe that's not relieving yeah yeah it's like but but i'm also you know the the resolution of the special is the lack of relief. The lack of, yeah, it's like, like, which I think you can accept you, but that doesn't mean that everybody can accept you. Yeah.

What would have, what would a closer have done to that? Well, there wasn't one. And I understand that. You know, but like, that's just me and my,

you know, my old school comedy expectation. Yeah. And there's nothing wrong with subverting that. But then where does the old school stop? Because then it's just like, well, if you were alive during Shecky Green, then you're like, why aren't you doing it?

Well, no, no, no, no, no. I mean, I'm not talking about that tradition. Like, you know, like that. There was no other way to really finish the story you were telling that, you know, I understand. Yeah. As far as the story goes. But that's what I'm saying. I'm interested in stories and I'm interested in specials and presenting these things.

And look, I got no problem with like a complete idea. Right. Well, I think that I'm not saying a closer necessarily even in funny. You know what? You know what? What was at the end of that was like i don't know how this is going to evolve yeah and and i think that's true about anything but i think that in necessarily that i like but just in life i guess what i'm saying is that you know in the show and

you thinking about oh okay i was gonna say like yeah yeah yeah you know a lot of times when you're doing a show it's like do you like it, are you setting up a series of sequels? Guess what? I'm back. It's still not going good with my mom. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, no, it can. But, like, what is your special?

If you're talking about personal stuff, it's all a series of sequels. Sure. It's all like eight ended on a joke outside of myself that was probably the most personal thing i said in it just like the about like family secrets and dad have another family oh yeah eight in many ways ended on a cliffhanger that then we stepped into in rothaniel like uh yeah it's all connected it's all and and it should be like it should track your growth right well i think that your work i think that like what we're sort of like talking talking about in terms of the difference in approach is that even that there's a movement against generalization for the personally authentic. Right?

Because we talked about point of view and that the only way you can have a point of view is if you offer your personal truth at you know at the risk of losing people or at the risk of it being too personal right so that's the primary difference it doesn't mean it's not comedy but like you know you look at someone like prior who is you know an artist but was very concerned with being general enough to sort of get over well that's our review of that of prior yeah but if you if you read about live on a sunset it sounds a lot like one of my first sure i'm like oh sure but i'm saying that but he was trying to you know broaden you know i mean i think he as a result has yeah but that but that's different it's like saying you know uh 808s and heartbreak was trying to change the sound of radio. It's trying to be its own specific thing.

Okay, I can get that. Seinfeld is trying to do Seinfeld. It's not your fault every fucking comic walking out of Montreal wants to do that, too. The reason I'm saying this is that I know people, and I'm seeing it more lately, that try to have the broadest appeal possible in order to maximize their exposure and their business. And they're doing it on purpose. And I don't know that that makes them less of an artist. I think it's just the pursuit of different things. I learned a thing about myself that when I bring up numbers it's because like i want to be seen i

don't feel like i'm getting the respect i deserve so when i start thinking about numbers yeah i'm seeking respect from uh from from whoever from whoever i don't feel like i'm getting it from like but that's an internal voice that's an internal but i'm i'm saying like i'm saying that like that could be how i quantify my career you know you've struggled with that i you could but i but it's just you have i know that it's not coming from the right place the right place like but that's a struggle you've you're aware of that within you quickly go back if if my ego is like if i my my feelings are hurt by some comment i've heard comics dismiss the thing oh but as if like people don't want it and i'm just like my ego goes i mean what you'll never i can go to like where i'm living i'm like

i've read things about me and i'm on a boat who the fuck are you yeah yeah yeah like ain't and i'm like oh why am i going to that but and it's like, oh, that's ego. Like, my feelings are hurt. Yeah, yeah, right. Because I feel like I owed more respect or whatever. So I go to numbers. Some people are just, that's their pursuit. And that should be their pursuit. Like, how well the thing, number one on, or even how many or how many years and those types of things.

That's just not, I don not i mean how we got here no no no i know i know how we got here it was just about the idea of speaking generally to a broader audience on purpose yeah oh yeah because if you're in pursuit of that like then that's the job right and you and basically you're saying that we can't backload that into prior's intentions it was just because was just because he was more troubled and pure than that. Listen, I want as many people possible to see my work. When we make something, it's like I want you to see it. It's a movie, the special, whatever. I want everybody to see it.

But the intention was personal and specific. The hope is that by going there, it can connect with as many people as possible. But I don't think about that when making stuff. Yeah, yeah. So what's going on now outside of the movie? What's the big plan? I heard about the Montreal show. I was up there talking about sex.

Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, well, that's been life. Are you having fun? Yeah, I mean mean in ways but i mean obviously i'm dealing with things and still trying to get rid of shame and you know all the things yeah it's not that that's not unique but i'm trying to process it you know i'm just trying to process but i'm yeah i'm i'm enjoying myself i still like you're doing i'll probably go to burgers never say die or something yeah yeah what's that oh you gotta go it's like my

favorite burger oh really it used to be in sean's backyard and then he opened a restaurant and it's oh okay yeah so stand up you're doing much uh i have a i have a show it's like i'm actually doing one tonight uh uh at the lyric it's just like i think um later tonight uh yeah i have a i have a show i have a show it's it's getting there i like you know i'm working it out um um yeah i guess that's the word yeah yeah i'm figuring it out I'm definitely figuring it out. I'm trying to, I would probably word it, I'm trying to understand what the fuck is going on. Okay.

Okay. All right. You use the language you want to use. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, working it out. I'm going to go work it out tonight. Okay. Good talking to you, man.

Good talking to you. That was good. I like talking to that guy. As I said before, On the Count of Three is streaming now on Hulu. And you can watch all his other stuff everywhere you watch other stuff. And please, can you hang out for one second? Just hang out. Stay right where you are, please.

Thank you. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea and ice cream? Yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost, almost anything.

Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find

the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. As I mentioned earlier, if you want to send me a question for the Ask Mark Anything episode we're posting next week on the full Marin, go to the link in the episode description. That's the part of this episode on your podcast player where it says all the stuff about today's show. You can also get a link to sign up for WTF Plus there. So I did it last month, but I just got the questions in real time from Instagram users. It was very rapid fire and there were a lot of them.

This time I'll see all your submissions in advance. So I'll have a little more time to consider my answers and figure out some stories to tell. Okay. Next week, we have Andrew Garfield on Monday show and singer songwriter, SG Goodman on Thursday, uh,

both great talks. Uh, I didn't know what to expect from Garfield. Um, but, uh, we had a pretty deep, it got, emotional around, once again, around grief and around, it was just, it really kind of unfolded nicely. I really didn't know what to expect, and they're tremendous. And I didn't, again, didn't know what to expect. She's from Kentucky. She lives out in the rural part of Kentucky. She has very interesting life

and she's kind of an amazing songwriter and singer and I love her work, but I was nervous, but it was great. It was great. I'm in Lincoln, Nebraska at the Rococo Theater tonight, then Des Moines, Iowa at the Hoyt Sherman Place tomorrow, August 19th, and Iowa City, Iowa at the Englert Theater on Saturday, August 20th. I'm in Tucson, Arizona at the Rialto Theater on September 16th, Phoenix, Arizona at Stand Up Live on September 17th, Boulder, Colorado at the Boulder Theater on September 22nd, Fort Collins, Colorado at the Lincoln Center on September 23rd, and Toronto, Ontario at the Queen Elizabeth Theater on September 30th and October 1st. London, England, and Dublin, Ireland,

I'll be coming to you in October. And as I mentioned at the beginning of the show, I have new dates for November and December in Oklahoma City, Dallas, San Antonio, Houston, Eugene, Oregon, Bend, Oregon, Asheville, North Carolina, and Nashville, Tennessee. Go to WTFpod.com slash tour for all dates and ticket info. Here's some guitar.

Same as the old guitar. Thank you. Thank you. Boomer lives. Monkey and Lafonda. Cat angels everywhere.