WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1359 - Andrew Garfield

Episode Date: August 22, 2022

Andrew Garfield was terrified of being Spider-Man. As a 27-year-old who was not yet known to the world, he knew his life would immediately change once he became that beloved character. Andrew tells Marc what he did to protect himself at that time, which included going back to his theater roots and heading to Broadway. Andrew also talks about life since his mother's death, why he considers Ryan Gosling to be one of his inspirations, and why he's been on a spiritual journey with recent projects, including his performance in Under the Banner of Heaven. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Lock the gates! All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fuck, nicks? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast, WTF. Welcome to it. How are you?

Look, I just got back. I'm punchy. I flew in today, which would be yesterday if you're listening to this on the day it came out. Flew in from Cedar Rapids, got up at 4.30 to drive the car from Iowa City to Cedar Rapids to drop it off. I'm not even sure if it's been tallied. I don't know if my car has been accounted for. It's a sort of a long story about budget rental car, and it's nothing negative about budget. Okay. It's just odd that the most chaotic experience I had renting a car happened at Lincoln, Nebraska airport. Lincoln, I don't even know if you call it international airport. The most chaotic sort of mild drama situation unfolded around a rental car in Lincoln, more so than any other situation that I've had in my adult life. Look, today is Andrew Garfield.

He's on the show today. You might know him from many things. The Social Network, Tick, Tick, Boom, The Eyes of Tammy Faye. He's one of the Spider-Men. He was on Broadway in Angels in America and Death of a Salesman. And he's Emmy nominated for his performance

in the miniseries Under the Banner of Heaven. That is some heavy Mormon drama, folks. Some murderous Mormon shit. And he's great in it. He'll be here. I'll be talking to him. He's a very nice guy. Thoughtful guy.

We got into it. Seems grief has been coming up a lot. But it unfolded into quite a uh beautiful conversation so lincoln nebraska look i was i was with lara bites we did three shows we had a show in lincoln we did a show in des moines we did a show in iowa city flew into lincoln now here's the deal it's a little tricky now to rent a car from a car rental agency that you're not going to return to them. They get a little weird about it, I think. I couldn't even get one from Hertz.

So I had to reserve one in budget because I needed to rent it in Lincoln, drop it off in Cedar Rapids. But they're so low on inventory that get, I think, a little cranky about it. They don't want you to take their cars. And when you do get a car that you can take, it's usually not the car you want. The last time I did this, I was in an F-150. Is that what it's called? A giant pickup? Because it wasn't theirs.

And they're like, go ahead, reenter this into the ecosystem of rental cars. Wandering rental cars. Maybe it'll find its way home. it's always a plate that's nowhere near the place where you rented it so i made a reservation of budget we landed at 8 30 p.m at lincoln airport in nebraska budget closed at six so i had to come back the next day to pick up the car now you could actually you could miss lincoln. You could drive right past it. And I'm talking about on the plane, like we landed. I'm like, is this it? Are we in it? So we got a car from the airport and this airport, one building really. And there's a parking

structure across from it. I swear to God, you could probably park your car overnight in front of the building if you needed to. I'm not being condescending. It's not, it wasn't like time travel. It's not old timey. It's just an airport that services Lincoln and it's quaint. It's cute. It's small. I'm not being judgmental. It was an odd experience to realize that this was the airport. So the next day we got in, we ate some food. Next day I get up, I get an Uber with Lara lara lara was lara and go back to the airport so we go to the budget counter there's a woman there bonnie and she's giving us the lowdown i'm said we got a reservation she says yep uh marin yep and she's like i'm gonna

give you a kia suv and i'm like is that all you got it's like it's all i got that you can take to iowa and i'm like okay i get it i get it i's like, it's all I got that you can take to Iowa. And I'm like, okay, I get it. I get it. I'll take what I can, man. We're just, you know, I understand you got low inventory. You sold off a lot of cars during the pandemic to stay solvent. And now it's hard to buy them because of supply chain issues. And she's like, that's right.

And I'm like, well, let's do it then. She goes, all right, I'm going to do your paperwork and I'm going to give you the key and you're going to listen to me how you get to where the car is. I'm like, how, how in my mind, I'm like, how far could it be? The garage is across the street. I'm literally walking across the street, but she made an odd point. She says, look, here's the paperwork. When you get this to Cedar Rapids, you're going to have to tell them to call me when they get the car in order to process the paperwork. If they don't call me, the paperwork won't be processed. And I'm like, I don't even understand what you're saying, but fine. She goes, here's what you do. Here's your key. You walk across the street. You go all

the way down the sidewalk till you see the sign for rental returns. And then you go left there, you go over a little driveway and you go, you're going to go left at that sign and the car's right there. So I'm like, fine. I take the key, me and Lara walk across the street. We're walking. I don't see any sign for rentals. I do see a parking structure. I look into the bottom level of that parking structure and there's cars there.

There's rental cars there. I see Avis signs on the spot. So I'm like, she must mean this. So we walk in. We walk around on the lower level of the parking structure. There were budget cars there. I've got my key fob. I'm pushing it, looking for the Kia in front of me to light up. It's not. But the Camry next to it is, the nice new white Camry is. I'm like, fuck it. Let's take this. And Lara says, no, because then you'd be stealing a car. And I'm

like, fuck. All right. So we go back into Bonnie, who I believe is actually managing all of the budgets in Nebraska from that counter. Now, she had just run down and missed us somehow to tell us that we had the wrong key. But obviously, we came back and she was sort of out of breath. She goes, I just tried to find you. I'm like, we were just over there at the car. She goes, I was just at the car. I'm like, I don't know how that happened, but this is a key to a Camry. Can I have that? She goes, no, that's for a guy that's going to rent it and keep it in town. She didn't say it in that tone. She was perfectly helpful. And I'm like, oh, okay. Can I have the key to our car? And she gives me the key to the Kia. So I go back with Lara to the garage where the Kia was and it's not lighting up. And now I'm going back to Bonnie. I'm like,

this key isn't working. It's not lighting up. And she goes, what back to Bonnie. I'm like, this key isn't working. It's not lighting up. And she goes, what? And I'm like, yeah, I don't get it. And now she's got to go into a canister of keys. And it's getting a little aggravating. She's like, I don't know what's happening. Here, take this Datsun Rogue. It's a gray Datsun Rogue. I take the key for the Datsun Nissan.

What did I just, holy shit, did I just go back to 1979 when I had a dotson b210 did i just go back there was i wearing puka shells did i have feathered hair did i have family shoes on how about britannia pants hey so back here and now we go out to the nissan rogue in the same place in the parking structure and i pointed at the rogue which isn't the color she said it would be nothing lights up so now i'm like you got to be fucking kidding me. I walked back into Bonnie. This is the third trip in with a third set of keys. And I go, nothing.

I don't know what's going on. She goes, where are you looking? I said, we're in the garage where the budget cars are. She goes, no, that's not where I told you to go. You got to walk all the way down to where the sign is. It's outside. It's a parking lot. It's like a half a mile down.

I'm like, how would I know that? I just saw, okay, my mistake, at least initially, though you did give me the wrong keys once it doesn't matter so now we got the keys to the rogue still and we walk all the way down there and uh we uh we get in the rogue okay now the rogue when was the last time you saw one of those hanging pine tree air fresheners a long long time, right? Something's got to smell pretty bad for anyone to even consider putting one of those in a car. It was in the car, like a black ice one or whatever. So there was the smell of that.

And then an underlying smell that was unidentifiable. You just hope no one was hurt in the car and was in there too long. I don't know what the smell was, but we were like, fuck this. Let's get out of here. So we pull out and we're driving the Rogue and we have a card to get us out. And the oil light comes on and we're like, fuck it. I'm not going back to Bonnie. We're going to take this car. And Laura's like, we got to check the oil. I'm like, that's fine. She's like, I don't want to throw a rod. I'm like, look at you fancy talk. I know what throwing a rod is. I've been driving

since I was 14. We'll check the oil when we get to the hotel. We check the oil. It's a lot of oil in it. And it's filthy oil. And I'm like, I don't know what we should do. And she's like, well, I think you can make it to Des Moines and probably see the rapids. I say, you're probably right. And then we go eat breakfast.

And then we're back in the car and the stink is bad. So now, like, I'm kind of thinking we could take this back because of the oil. I not have a car that stinks like this. Going back back with just a stinky car i don't know if we're going to get what we want and she's like you mean you want to go back to the airport i'm like what else are we going to do we're in lincoln it's not like you know we have a full day planned this is life happening let's go back there i was nervous i was nervous because bonnie was you know i think she'd had enough though i do believe it was probably a pretty exciting day all around. So we drive back to the airport.

We walk in and she was like, oh my God. And I'm like, yup. She's like, what's happening? And I forgot to tell you, we had almost, the third set of keys, when we went back, she had started a cigarette break. So I just want to up the ante emotionally a little bit. We interrupted a cigarette break earlier that day. want to up the ante emotionally a little bit. We interrupted a cigarette break earlier that day. She was totally in break mode, was about to light it. And we were like,

we're having problems. So that in and of itself would be enough, I would imagine, to annoy her. But we walked back in and she's like, okay, what's happening? Not mad at all. She wasn't unmad, but she was like, what is happening? And happening and i'm like well the oil light's on this car so we parked we had parked the car right in front of the terminal and we went into the counter no one's gonna mind and she went on the computer she goes yep it needs an oil change and i'm like okay so what do you want us to do she goes it would probably make it and i'm like i get that but and she's like no all right we'll get can why don't you just give us the kia that we were supposed to get to begin with that we never got to she's like no all right we'll get can why don't you just give us the kia that

we were supposed to get to begin with that we never got to she's like all right she writes up some new paperwork and i'm like i'll just drive the uh the rogue over there to the lot and pick up the kia which is the only other car that she goes i can't let you drive it you're not covered anymore and i'm like so what are we going to do she goes i'll get my driver and we walk outside there's an old man sitting on the bench she goes goes, Rick, get up. And he gets up. He drive these two over to the lot so they can get in the car. So we get in the car with this old guy.

He drives us over the lot. And now I have forgotten the thing that's going to get us out of the gate. And I'm like, I can't deal. I can't go back. I can't go back anymore. And Rick's like, I'll let you out. I'll just let you out.

So now we're in the Kia, which doesn't smell great either, to be honest with you. But we get off of the lot and we've got a car. And I just want to thank Bonnie for keeping her patience. I imagine I'd like to think she's probably still talking about it because I asked her, you know, when we went back the fourth time, how many flights come in to Lincoln Airport? And she goes, eight.

I'm like, a day? She's like, eight a day. And I'm like, okay, well, this is a big work day then. And I'm not being condescending. She was very helpful and I liked her. There's a lot of keys. She's carrying around a lot of keys. It was a lot of stuff.

Okay, so the shows are great. You know, Lincoln went great. Then we drove to Des Moines. I love driving through the Midwest. It's a heavy weather out there. There was some, we missed the hailstorm the size of golf balls. It was breaking windshields. Then we would have definitely had to take the car back to Bonney.

But there was a rainstorm that just, it's like a waterfall. It's not drops. There's just nothing but heavy weather. You barely drive in this rain. But driving through the Midwest was beautiful in a farmland kind of way. We get to Des Moines. We do that show. Great.

That was a great venue. Had a nice time. Then we drive the next day to Iowa City. That was sweet. So we get up at 430. I get the car out. At 525, we're heading from Iowa City to Cedar Rapids in the dark. And I'm dropping off this budget car.

And I'm thinking, like, did I do everything right? We filled it up. But there's nobody going to be there. It's Sunday. It's going to be closed. We're going to do a key drop. But what about this thing where they got to call Bonnie in order for the paperwork to get finished?

And I didn't know really. I filled out a little bit of paperwork on the envelope, and then I couldn't get it into the key drop. So needless to say, it hasn't been processed yet. I have not got an email from budget saying a receipt or anything like that. So, I imagine I'll hear something. Not great. But more chaos than I've ever experienced.

Seriously, renting a car. I'm tired. I guess eventually that car will be listed as stolen. I'll get into it with them. All right, listen. Andrew Garfield is here. He has an Emmy nomination for Outstanding Lead Actor in a Limited Series

or Anthology Series or TV Movie for Under the Banner of Heaven. And that's streaming now on Hulu. And here we are talking. Great, great talk. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats, but meatballs and mozzarella balls. Yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost, almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details.

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I'm 58 and I don't know what the fuck has happened. You know, half the time with the... 58. With how show business works even. I mean, you seem to be operating pretty well in sort of old style show business. You're legit. You know what I mean? You're doing movies.

Right. Television series. Right. You know, you're old enough to television series right you're not you know you're old enough to not uh you're not doing tiktok videos yeah i was i was on i'm a geriatric millennial i was on the cusp of are you doing tiktok videos no no i haven't right needed to are you on instagram no i haven't it's a privilege that i twitter no all of these i i i have cre i have creeper accounts on all of these things not tiktok

sure lurker that's that's yeah but you're just a consumer of entertainment a consumer of entertainment and politics and news and yeah other other things like of that nature so like i watched um i've watched some of the uh the new show uh-huh you're in you got nominated for an eminy for an enemy and i got an enema i got nominated for an enema and an enemy? I've never had an enema. I think I'm 38. Have you had a colonic? Never had a colonic.

I feel like it's around the corner. There's still time. An enema nomination. I feel like we're on the way. Yeah, I got nominated for an enemy. An enemony? Yeah. It's interesting because, I mean, this is like the third seriously religious character you've played.

Third. Or maybe more. I don't know. Is there more? There's more. Really? Well, religious, yeah. I suppose you're distinguishing.

Because I would say like prior Walter and Angels in America is like a spiritual hero. Sure. But I mean, you played a monk. Yeah, yeah. Jesuit priest. And then you played a- Seventh Day Adventist. Yeah.

And then Jim Bacon. Right. Jim Bacon, who is arguably religious. A preacher. Yeah. Yeah. But maybe the least spiritual person I've ever played. But did you feel like, his son's a big fan of mine.

I've had his son on the show. I'm a big fan of his son as well. Of Jay? Yeah, I love Jay. Was he involved in that? Not particularly. We had a really beautiful conversation and we've remained kind of in contact, basically. Oh, yeah?

Yeah, I love him. I love what he's about. He's a courageous guy. Yeah, and his relationship with his mother was very sort of beautiful. Yeah, really interesting. Is he still preaching? I don't know. I don't know right now.

I haven't kept up with his activities in that way. So what was the process with this guy? Which guy? The Mormon guy? Yeah. What's his name? Well, he's a fictional character his name is jeb pyrie sure fictional character but like i go to salt lake city i do stand up there i work there i i don't mind salt lake city uh it's a ringing endorsement of salt lake well that's the best endorsement they're gonna get i don't mind yeah

mark maron does not mind Salt Lake City. Well, as you enter, you realize that this is a functioning theocracy. It has been for years. And I was doing jokes when I was there about the idea that it's becoming a progressive city. And in my mind, it's like, it's not really. And if it is the illusion of that, it's only because the church is letting it happen because it generates money. Interesting. I mean, yeah, you'd know better than I would.

I don't know anything. It's just a speculation. But there are a lot of people that aren't religious. But what I want to get to is that in the research, and I haven't gotten through the whole series yet, but I imagine we're heading towards you know what that compound in big love must have looked like right there that element seems to be lurking what was what was the process of educating yourself about that religion yeah i mean it was fascinating for that for that very reason like uh what what i found really interesting my entry point was three ex-mormons dustin lance black who was jack mormons jack yeah well it isn't a jack mormon practicing but kind of kind of crappy at it i

think like oh i thought jack mormon they like uh they were out yeah yeah maybe but either way so there was these three people one one being dustin lance black our showrunner yeah who was a writer on big love okay who who kind of of adapted John Krakauer's book. And then two of his friends, Lindsay Hanson Park, who's this very kind of radical feminist ex-Mormon. And this other man called Troy Williams, who runs Equality Utah. Who runs Equality Utah. He runs an LGBTQ organization in Utah that's like kind of for progressive legislation in the state. So there's really a political push there. spiritual crisis spiritual awakening away from the kind of the narrow kind of fundamentalist nature of of organized religion generally but specifically mormonism so for me they introduced

me to people who was that who are still practicing people who are really really deep in the religion i went to i went to church i i i visited with a lot of people. And then it went from the extreme of that to a bishop who was kind of on the way out because he was starting to experiment with ayahuasca and plant medicine. And like a lot of ex-Mormons in Utah, there's this very interesting subculture of ex-Mormons in Utah. They were all afraid that he was going to find the plates again. And they were going to say very, very different things. But what's kind of amazing is that there's this group of ex-Mormons in Utah who have kind of supplemented their spiritual

kind of need and the abyss that leaving the faith kind of gave them with hallucinogens and specifically this, you know, ayahuasca or mushrooms or anything like that. That's sort of untethered spirituality as opposed to the rigid. Or a connection with maybe a truer, more kind of visceral spirituality, which is a natural spirituality, a connection to nature. And so that was very, very cool that That was kind of my introduction to Mormonism.

It was very, very unexpected. It was through these people. And that's the journey that my character goes on in the project. He does have a huge crisis of faith because of having to pursue the truth of this case, which puts him at odds with the untruths that his religion are kind of perpetuating. So when you put together a character like that

and you're just kind of putting the drive shaft into your mind and being, you know, it's basically a guy that is struggling with faith. Yeah, and what comes with that is a struggling with reality, right? Your perception. Exactly. And the courage that it takes to actually if you find yourself falling dive right like rather than resist yeah or oscillating

between resistance and acceptance right and i think it's a psyche it's a psycho it's a psychological break that's happening it's it's like... But not based on chemical or mental illness, but based on literally information. Yeah, knowledge. Awareness. It's interesting because that happens all the time, both for bad and good. Always, yeah.

And I think if we're lucky, I think it happens over and over and over again and we expand our consciousness every day and we die every day and we get you know that's like so i i don't know i think maybe the metaphor of the christ myth which was literalized by a group of people who wanted domination and control yeah the idea is if we're lucky we emulate christ's the metaphor of christ's is if we're lucky we emulate christ's the metaphor of christ's uh death and resurrection every day in order to become a new in order to become and it's what you were saying before is again it's like you know the older you get the less you know and that's true wisdom right i thought so we're we're breaking open over and over and over again our psyches are expanding our hearts are expanding

that's the idea you would hope but i mean unless you're just holding, you know, true to, you know, whatever your perception is. Yeah. Right. So you know less and less because you're not taking new things in. Right. So you ultimately get abandoned by the pace of culture and information. Right. And we feel that abandonment so acutely.

And that's what creates rage. And that's what creates, I mean, and the era that we're in now where people are so desperately white-knuckling, holding on to tangible explanations for completely mysterious things. That's right. Like the rise of conspiracy theories. Oh, yeah. All of these things. That's all in, that's because of a spiritual vacuum and just fear i mean but but the the the nature of conspiracy theories the reason they take hold is the same reason religions take hold there's

this need for people it's almost compulsive it may not come from a good place but they need to be feel like there are answers and they're part of something bigger yeah yeah but the bigger i think the real bigger is the mystery and i think yeah well it's the thing that our egos can't handle yeah yeah yeah and that's the problem is that we've centered the ego maybe in in our culture sure rather than i don't know making us making our culture ecocentric which where where all the wisdom really lives i don't i think about it all the time yeah like you know like how do we blow it how do we miss the mark not just miss the mark but it's like well it was because the the i think the wedge is really ultimately kind of just uh uh free market capitalism yeah really i'd agree i mean if you if you're just sitting around bartering things and

you're bringing vegetables to the neighbor's house, you know, in exchange for a hat, you know, it's like. I was really hoping in the first, like, maybe two or three months of the pandemic, I was like. Let's get back to that. We're going back to me bringing you a hat and you giving me a carrot. Like, I was like, oh, it's happening. It'd be great. This is the moment. But it strikes me because of the imp the impending and and uh happening you know

climate crisis just sort of like this could have we could all be living with i don't i wouldn't have to be watching my lawn die right now if we had just you know traded the carriage for the hat but if only you had that specific yeah yeah it would have saved the world well so but you were you brought up with religion were you brought up with religion? Were you brought up with these questions? No, it's weird, isn't it? I don't know. Isn't that odd?

Isn't that strange? Where does this come from in us? How were you brought up? Yeah, I mean, so father, secular Jew, mother, kind of Church of England Christian, but non-practicing she was she was i think i got some spiritual she was a pantheist she died just before the pandemic she passed away two sorry two years ago and a few months ago now thank you and and and you know

there's lots of grace with it in the sense that i got to be with her it was it was pre yeah and you know i got to be with her because if it was pre yeah and you know i got to be with her because if she had died during the pandemic you get the juries out if i would have gotten to be able to sit by her side hold her hand and yeah i love the process i lost somebody during the pandemic and it was uh but she was here you know i mean no one but you there was There was no way to grieve, really. Yeah. So, what, how long had she been ill? A year and a half, two years with pancreatic cancer. That's a bad one. Dude.

Dude, it's like. It seems like she lived a long time with it. She was the person, she was the kind of person that would um that would that would have stayed here for another 10 years if it meant that we were all happy yeah no matter what her condition was yeah there's some beauty to that but there's also some i was very angry with her for that a lot of the time i just wanted her to take care of herself better and i and and it was a you're angry for her hanging on or for no no i mean like just generally as a personality trait you know like you know i think women of that

generation but no i'm not gonna say a blanket statement like that she was i'll speak about her just specifically she she for whatever reason was she she she loved she loved living for others she just loved right being you know, giving love to others. It's beautiful, but it cost her. I could see that. And I think she would have kind of like admit to that privately to me. But yeah. But you were able to be there.

Thank God. I mean, it was the most, I mean, I don't know how I would have handled it without. Like it was hard enough with, you know, she was 69. She was 69 she was so young and you know we were such a tight-knit family and she how many people in the family it was the the kind of the core group was the four of us my dad her and me my brother yeah and um and you know and we still are tight all four of us in whatever kind of non-material way that she's still with us that i feel when i talk about her you know it's like it's this is the ritual of talking about her any chance i get and it evolves though right oh yeah like grief like my experience

with it and it was not my mother dying at a young age, but it was somebody who I loved and I had spent time with. But it's a fascinating, uncontrollable, and not really talked about state. And everybody's in it at some point. It's the one place we're all going. That's true. And it's such a weird, I mean, and I think it ties in with what we were talking about earlier, about a kind of a lack of spirit in the culture right now, a lack of an epidemic of meaninglessness maybe in the culture.

And anger. Yeah, yeah. And denial and delusion. And because if we keep exiling this, you know, the inevitability of the destination where we're all heading, I think, you know, I think about Rupert Murdoch and then I think about Mike Nichols. And I think about- At the same time, is this like an exercise? No, just right now,

they both just came up in my consciousness as like opposing poles of how to die. And obviously Rupert Murdoch is still with us as far as we know in material form, in corporeal form. Yeah. Maybe he was never here in spirit. Or maybe he's been here since the beginning of time. Yeah, I really don't think he's the God of...

He does fit the kind of description of whatever Father God kind of like... Yeah, the evil one. The fallen one. yeah the evil one the fallen one but like but the desire to be the richest man in the graveyard versus mike who i got to do um death of a salesman with in 2012 on and brought oh my god was that like the last thing he did it was it was one of the it was i think the third to last thing he did it was me and phil hoffman and and and phil playing willie loman and and you were biff and me playing biff and mike nichols directing and and seeing how he obviously you know mike was a terror growing up and he was feared by many um but i think i met him in his you know 80s and he was all the edges had been softened and i think

he was understanding that he couldn't take any of it with him he was just giving it he was giving it all away yeah like what was the experience i mean how was it uh different i mean outside of you what you were bringing to the table which is a tremendous respect yeah for him but you're not knowing really how he worked how did he work that was somehow uh inspirational or different for you he told stories uh-huh thathuh. That was his direction. And it was, again, it was this very elegant kind of leaving a trail of breadcrumbs with a seemingly unrelated story from the scene we were doing.

Oh, okay. And then he would say, okay, do it again. He would tell a story about something completely unrelated. Huh. It was like he was coming in the unconscious.

Oh, that's interesting. And he was just kind of, I don't know, tickling parts of your brain that you didn't know were, were, were available. Oh, that's interesting. Yeah. Just kind of leading you towards, like tricking you basically, tricking you into a good performance. Uh-huh. And, yeah. And, and, and outside of that, you know, Phil, Phil was someone who I just kind of absorbed as much as I possibly could.

And Linda Eamon, who played Linda, an amazing New York theater actress. It's a hell of a play. And what's really kind of baffling is that you did it in the middle of doing everything else. Right? I mean, you just do Death of a Salesman and you had shot, I guess, the social network. It was in the can. That was done, yeah. And Spider-Man was what?

Not happened yet? Just done. Just finished. I just finished Spider-Man. And I think I was so freaked out by the experience of having made that kind of movie. As an actor? Yeah, because I never imagined I would be in that position. And also, I got a taste of what making what kind of that kind of movie is like also it was that was a

high pressure situation yeah big time because it was about to come out yeah because you know you were the new guy yeah it was a bit make or break and and i i think there was a kind of antidotal feeling of like i need to get back to i need to go home so it was a balance exercise exactly yeah i think my psyche was like i need to go i need to go and do something incredibly soulful challenging with members of my kind of theater tribe yeah and also like things were you know each day is a beginning and an end. Yeah. Right. So you're like total immersion for the whole arc of a story as opposed to like 10 minute pieces here and there. And I think on a more kind of like vulnerable level, I was just fucking scared.

I was scared of this massive film coming out and a gajillion people saying, no, we don't we don't like you. We don't like your soul. We don't like your creative choices. We don't like your soul. We don't like your creative choices. We don't like your face. Which was guaranteed. Guaranteed, yeah. Absolutely baked into the experience. There's going to be at least 50% of people that detest me.

Full hate. And I was like, you know, 27, I think, 26. And like, you know, that's older than Justin Bieber was when he had to put up with his more extreme version of that. Yeah. But even at that age, I was like, no, I'm not ready for that. I need to protect. I think I had, like, wisdom enough to know I'm going to lose my goddamn mind if I don't.

Also ground yourself in who you are as an artist. Precisely. Right. Yeah, exactly. So when you were growing up, your dad was Jewish, you said? He was. He still is, I suppose. Yeah. No, exactly. So when you were growing up, your dad was Jewish, you said? He was. He still is, I suppose. Yeah.

No, yeah. Culturally Jewish? Culturally Jewish. East Coast Jew? West Coast Jew? West Coast Jew. L.A. Jew. Oh, yeah?

Yeah. Emma Gray's Polish, Russian, pre-World War II, landed as Garfinkel, ended up as Garfield. That's why there's another fairly famous actor. John Gar who was a garfinkel i think oh was he i think so oh interesting he was a great actor too he was a great actor um blacklisted guy yeah that's right yeah that's right his daughter was also an actress she was in goodfellas she was one of the wives no way yes definitely yeah yeah i sat with her on a plane once i got back in the day i was i got shit faced with her on a plane i don't know if she was drinking but i know i was but uh but yeah so so he just what was he in show business no not at all no he was an accountant

and then a business person and then a and now he's a swimming coach but in England in the UK yeah he was he was born in LA and then his parents decided you know he was just getting into the Beach Boys and he was putting roller skate wheels onto a plank of wood and he was like and then his family he said you know we're gonna go back to Europe I'm gonna raise you close to your your extended Jewish people and he you know landed in england southampton yeah at the age of 13 and kind of in grim gray england from you know the wilds of california and and then met my mother like was brought up there and met my mother and

then immediately just kind of whisked her over to la had me and my brother and then she was raising two kids in marina del rey in the 80s and was like i don't had me and my brother and then she was raising two kids in Marina del Rey in the 80s and was like I don't know this feels pretty dangerous and then said I'm going back if you want to come with me come with me and that was that yeah and then and now he comes out and visits me because I live between here and there so I have both passports and it's funny like that thing of being the unmet dreams of our parents right so i've become like a i surf i you know i i have this little little spot near the beach and here in la yeah so now i get to give him the kind of the dream that he never got to live out himself it's kind of and also he had us he had a secret sadly the beach boys aren't in great shape but you know you can give them part of it

but it's also interesting when i first started acting he was he was terrified and very kind of um you know like any good father would be yeah like you know you're going to be destitute and you're going to have to you know they don't want you to have a life of struggle yeah or like selling selling myself for sex on the street you know that was he should have had a little more faith i don't know i don't know if he literally got to that stage. In his parenting, he should have had a little more. That wasn't the ultimate way that this would go. I don't know if he ever literally said, you're going to end up selling your ass in Soho.

There's a lot of other problems that have to happen before that becomes the only option you have. And a lot of them are psychological. And you seem like a pretty well-adjusted guy. Yeah, but not in my father's mind no no and and so but then when i started getting you know making making money in order to pay rent and or and and put food on my own table etc he started to get very he started to shift and that happened in in the uk in the uk when i was doing theater and i was i when i made

my first couple of movies he started to come a bit closer and i was like what's going on here and it turned out that he had this very secret early desire he would drive he had a moving company in la yeah and he would drive past the the studios sure like the fox lot for instance and he would he had this he had he had a kind of un an unmentioned unowned a disowned dream of being a screenwriter. Oh. Because he's a great storyteller. He's a very charismatic, charming, storytelling dude. And he's a great writer, but he never did it.

So it was this very interesting thing of like, oh, my God, maybe that's where, maybe that's, I don't know. It's also pretty glamorous, whether he's got a dream or no dream. You know what I mean? To have an actor in the family, you get to do that thing. Everybody, most people like show business. Yeah, I suppose so. You know, everyone's just afraid of it. You know what I mean?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But, I mean, what was the education process? So did you go to the fancy place? The RADA place? Yeah. No, I didn't go to the RADA place. I didn't want to go to the RADA place for some reason. Maybe that's self-preservation, like a self-protective mechanism in me.

Did you go to the other place? Which was the other place? I don't know. Arthur II? This is the Royal Academy and then there's the other one? I've talked to a lot of people that have gone to one or the other. Where'd you go? Yeah, I went to one of the other ones.

Yeah, I did. I did. I went to one of the other ones. Which other one? It was called, which other one it was called which other one central it's called central central school of speech and drama yeah you know i don't know that one judy dench went there orin salivier there's two or three right garcia bernal went there um and yeah i had a really good time i had a really good time i was 17 and i i i didn't know that this was a job

and and you know i i was really introduced to great, I was introduced to Arthur Miller and Shakespeare. But like when you were a kid though, it wasn't a thing? No, not at all. I was an athlete and then I stopped growing and I got concussed three times playing rugby and I kind of let it all, and I was a swimmer, I was a gymnast and my dad became a swimming coach ultimately.

And I don't know, man, like, I don't know. There was a gymnast. And my dad became a swimming coach ultimately. And I don't know, man. Like, I don't know. There was a really cool thing that I can see in retrospect that happened where I got super lost. And I didn't know what the hell I wanted to do. After you were done with athletics. You're like, this isn't a future. Yeah, exactly. And I'm beat up.

I'm not going to be Muggsy Bogues. I always dreamed about being Muggsy Bogues. What is he? He's a, you know who Muggsy Bogues. I always dreamed about being Muggsy Bogues. What is he? You know who Muggsy Bogues is? I'm American. I don't care about sports. Dude, he's like a legendarily tiny NBA player. He was like five foot one.

You seem tall to me. Aren't you tall? Like six foot. But at that time, my growth was done because of all the gymnastics and my Russian coaches sitting on my back while I'm in a box split. You think that's true? don't know okay i think you probably you just let me just hit your limit yeah perhaps you can blame the russians we can blame the russians sure why not at this point yeah it's safe it's the right time to blame the russians yeah you would have been six two

if it weren't for those damn ruskies but no i was like so i let so and i i could apply myself at school my brother and but the problem is my brother was golden boy my brother was he's a doctor he's a lung doctor so he's been like keeping people alive last two and a half years to the best of my god yeah so he's a lung doctor in the uk yeah yeah the brompton hospital in chelsea yeah oh my god what a tough couple years yeah and he's a but he's the guy you want taking care of you because he stays two hours he's like my mother in that way he stays three hours after you know he shifts over and he does he keep abreast of the new he must yeah to a degree i think he's just kind of treading water as you know i think he's just trying to he's just

like any great physician yeah treats one face at a time yeah otherwise he gets overwhelmed and he does get overwhelmed like he's a person i'm trying to keep reminding him that he's a person i think like i became his kind of emotional support animal during the pandemic i was happy to have a job you know what i mean like that we were all sat on our asses i guess you could still talk to people but i was just kind of sat i know i talked to people sitting on their asses yeah right in their own houses so anyway so i had this golden boy brother, et cetera, et cetera. And I was like, well, fuck this. I mean, like, who am I?

What's the point? Sure. Like, my father is obsessed with my brother. I don't, I'm. Oh, you found that? Oh, yeah. Big time. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So you're just sort of like, we don't know what's going to happen with that one. We'll see if he makes it. We'll see if he survives. Sure. No, but it was like this kind of amazing gift because it liberated me into going, well, you know, I was born, I was raised in a very kind of conservative suburban,

yeah, Truman show feeling like, is this everything? It can't be everything. If it is everything, I don't particularly know if I want to be here, actually. Right, yeah. Like, I was never, like, I wasn't, like, a suicidal kid, but I was definitely, like, I don't know,

I was enraged at the concept of this being everything. Sure. And, you know, and the arts weren't valued. They weren't spoken about. In your house? In the house. Like, my dad's a cinephile. My dad loves movies.

Well, there you go. That was something, but it wasn't what about music yeah i mean he had a great record collection and your mom was a big deadhead my dad my dad was a really as a big deadhead my mom my and my mom was incredibly crafty and she was amazing like cake maker and like cashmere sweater knitter but it but it wasn't i don't know it was it was if you're not a lawyer a doctor or in business then you're nothing oh i see so so it was that capitalist right but these were hobbies and and it was you know things that they enjoyed yes but it was not like they weren't sitting around going around do whatever you want man no no no there was no value in it you weren't value you know it's very capitalistic it like, how many units did you produce today?

Yeah. What did your mom, did your mom work? She was a housewife. She ended up having to work because the lampshade business she had with my dad started to go under. And it ended up being her and her friend Barbara in our converted living room, which was converted into a lampshade. Lampshade. Whose idea was that? It was my father's high air brain scheme.

And what made them special? They were handmade by my mother. Like they were absolutely beautiful. Well, that seems like a very crafty belief in the arts.

Oh, no, it was incredible. Yeah, but it failed. It massively failed. This was the problem. Do you have at least one of the lampshades? I don't know where they are. Oh, wow.

I think at our house, definitely. There's like, she's everywhere still. All of her things. Yeah, yeah. You know what she, no, I'm, definitely. There's like, she's everywhere still. All of her things are private. You know what she, no, I'm not going to tell you that. It's too private.

I, there was a, so anyway, so I was like, okay, well, fuck this. I don't know how to particularly be here. Yeah. In this, whatever this person is, doesn't fit here. Yeah, yeah. And, and I think there's something about letting there be a bunch of empty space where the right thing can then show itself. You hope. Well, yeah, but it takes a great deal of like staring into the abyss.

Right, right, right. But I mean, it's like the empty space was not something you wanted. Hell no. I wanted everything to be totally laid out and planned. And I wish I had a gift of being a great business person or could stomach it at least, but I just fucking couldn't. I couldn't do it. Either that's all you give a shit about or you're not that guy. Right, yeah. But I think the tragedy of most people in the British educational system is they end up doing shit they don't care about. They end up living lives and having to you know put the the guitar in the in the attic well that but that's most people yeah but isn't that the tragedy of the is it though yeah i do

think so but wait so i well look what if what if you take it out of the attic yeah here's like here's the thing is like you know if if you like i've got a bunch of guitars i never played in a band and i think if i played in a band and I had all these guitars and I was no longer in a band, I would hate them. Right. Yeah, I get that. So if you can enjoy something and really just not see it as the life or death struggle of who you are.

Yeah, I agree with that. Whether it's singing or acting or playing a guitar. No, I agree with that. When something is not monetized, when something doesn't have the pressure of your livelihood attached to it. Or you realizing who you are through it, like the artistic element. Well, what was it that filled the emptiness first

that made you realize like, okay, this is the space that I have and now I can occupy it with this yeah well i tried everything i tried sculpture i tried sculpture i tried painting i tried music are you any good at painting no i'm fine at all of it really i enjoy all of it i'm fine at it totally fine it's a tough road it is a tough the sculpture sculptors road yeah no i'm glad i'm glad i didn't uh have a talent in sculpture yeah literally the last thing i tried was a drama a drama class outside of school when i was like 15 16

and it felt it felt different yeah that's all just felt different and then a mentor arrived like a a uh a teacher arrived at high school in a very critical moment, a new drama teacher. Oh, yeah? And he saw me in a play, and he said, well, he just basically said, I see you, and I think you can do something with this. And that was one of those special moments

that we are lucky if we get, those mentoring moments. Yeah, and it's a good time for it to happen. It was perfect. You're not quite formed, get those mentoring moments. Yeah, and it's a good time for it to happen. It was perfect. You're not quite formed, but you're hungry. Yeah. And a little nervous. Yeah. And you're questioning everything.

If a responsible mentor steps into place, into your life at that point in time, it's a big game changer. Yeah, exactly. What was it about that guy? That he said he thought I was good. Oh, yeah? That was it? Finally. I don't have to be he thought I was good. Oh, yeah? That was it?

Finally. I don't have to be anything. No, literally. No, literally. It was really kind of that simple. That hadn't happened yet in something that I actually enjoyed, something that I loved. But what about your mom?

Yeah, but she didn't know. She just thought if I had murdered someone, she would have showed up with chocolate chip cookies. Sure, right. Whatever you would have done she was like I mean I wish you hadn't have done it

but you really cut that guy up good yeah yeah yeah I wouldn't make a life out of it well you can't because you're in jail now but well maybe on the inside

yeah yeah see what you can do in there no she was literally that way to a fault no matter what she would have figured out a way of

justifying it in her head uh huh so it's a high school thing that started it it was a it was high school and then there's this guy of philip tong mr phil tong and he he just kind of and then he introduced me to all these great writers and then encouraged me to apply to drama school and then i got into drama and it was we were just and that was it that was it you're on you're on the path then yeah and it kind of owns you right i'm sure you it seems like it yeah i mean i'm your own version of that well yeah i was the That was it. That was it. You're on the path then. Yeah. And it kind of owns you, right?

I'm sure you, you know. It seems like it, yeah, I mean, I'm possessed by it. You have your own version of that. Well, yeah, it was comedy, and yeah, and it still owns me, but it's weird that, you know, given that my success is what it is, I do okay,

but I know I keep pushing it, and I know my age that, you know, I'm still completely engaged with it and doing new things with it. You know, without, you know, I have friends who are much bigger stars than me, but you know, it still means something, which is good, if it can continue to mean something to you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Which it seems like the battle you had, you know, at least in light of Spider-Man was that, you know, what in in light of spider-man was that uh you know what does it mean again to you know what am i doing with my talent yeah how what are we serving so when did when what were the first opportunities you know where where were you headed from the beginning oh i just wanted to make money really i just wanted to be able to pay rent and eat food so were you doing commercials yeah i did a doritos commercial in spain why spain you're like

no i'll see it no i wasn't i was i i would have much rather it be in somewhere people would have seen it yes um no at that point i was honestly you didn't see my doritos commercial was it was it in spanish yeah did you speak spanish no but i didn't have to speak in commercial? Was it in Spanish? Yeah. Did you speak Spanish? No. But I didn't have to speak in it. It was all visual and physical. But you know the directors who directed it went on to direct the It movies. Oh, they did?

Yeah. Oh, okay. So, you know, they made good. And you did all right, too. I did fine. Do you see each other and go like, hey, you guys, thanks for the break? We both landed landed our fee here it was a major moment i was very very excited because i got like what three grand for two days

of work yeah i thought well if i can sustain this i'm going to be a happy camper and if i can you know this can supplement me being able to do my my theater because i love the theater i just fell in love with theater but you knew that wasn't going to be a big payday no no especially in the uk because it's mostly subsidized it's government funded for the right part the great theaters in the uk and london are government funded so so okay so you understood that there was a business to it and you had to you know go out and hustle some chips yeah i just didn't want to keep working because i was working at starbucks and i was working uh as a waiter and doing all these things yeah i just didn't i would i would success for me

would have been would have been not having to do those jobs right it's really that simple and then when do the films start happening when do you realize like yeah that's the problem isn't it you get spoiled you like you get given the finest sushi in all of japan yeah you're selling you're suddenly like well i can't i can't go to the supermarket for my sushi anymore. God damn. Like, I'm fucked now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because you've, you know. Yeah, you've made some money. Not that.

I meant more kind of symbolically working with certain people on certain material. Okay, okay. You know? So the first movie. So I'm doing plays in London. Yeah. And I'm working on great plays. Yeah.

Great theaters with great people yeah but you know i'm not getting paid shit and that's totally fine i'm just about making ends meet did you work with any of the old-timers that you respected were there any of those moments where you're like i can't believe i'm working with this guy who was that i did a reading with pete pothlesway yeah and that was a big moment i remember that being kind of incredibly exciting yeah um there yeah there there were a couple of other people um but it's were you doing shakespeare um i did i did romeo and julia in manchester that was actually not good production that was a pretty shitty production

um but uh i was doing i did a play called kes in manchester which is the ken loach movie and they they made a play of that, which was really, really beautiful. And then I was doing new writing in London. I was doing a lot of new writing at the National Theatre in London, which is kind of my home theatre. Which means new writing means like new playwrights? Yeah, yeah, like younger playwrights. And I got an amazing Irish playwright called Enda Walsh, who's done a lot of work with Cillian Murphy. A play called Disco Pigs. And I did a play called Chat Room with him, which is all set

in an internet chat room, but when that was all happening, it was like online bully. It was just like a great play by an American playwright called JT Rogers called The Overwhelming about the Rwandan genocide. And I was getting radicalized by by theater i was i was getting my political kind of uh education education and a value system shaped by you know modern playwrights by incredible you know i don't know heart-centered progressive socially conscious writers oh that's great that was kind of was building you you built your person in the theater i think so i think i think arthur miller especially miller and shakespeare i mean yeah there's two good bibles sure man yeah um and then so i was doing i was doing plays and then

an assistant of a direct of a famous director called stephen daldry came and saw one of the plays and again it was one of these moments where you go, well, someone's looking out for me. And she saw a play I was doing. Daldry was putting together a screen test for a book called The Amazing Adventures of the Cavalier in Clay by Michael Chabon.

Yeah, I know that book, yeah. Great book. He was putting a screen test together for a movie version with Scott Rudinin who was producing at the time and they asked me to come and screen test yeah in london and i had never done anything on camera yeah and then i'm in a studio with daldry and then six other actors ryan gosling killian murphy jason schwartzman jamie bell toby mcguire and i am just shitting myself entirely and suddenly i'm working with excitement or nervousness but all of it yeah and i am suddenly thrust into working with and witnessing great screen actors work and i've

always kind of had this romantic kind of idea it's always been like brando and james dean you go how do you and like daniel day lewis how do you how are you doing that and i got to see quietly yeah very very i whispered just everything was whispered i was oh it's quite simple you just whisper everything no i i it was really ryan gosling where I was overwhelmed. I was like, this guy's figured something. He's doing something on a deeper level here. He had just done The Believer.

He had just done Half Nelson. He was in that period of his work. What was he doing? Could you put your finger on it? He was alive. He didn't care about doing it the same way over and over again. He was listening. He was very present. He was purely, he didn't care about doing it the same way over and over again. He was listening. He was very present.

He was spontaneous. He was surprising. He wasn't trying to be those things. He was just being present. Right. There was a Zen quality to it. Yeah. But it was a kind of, I don't know. It was like being in a scene with a wild animal where you didn't know whether he was going to kiss you or kill you.

And it was, and then you then you you know and then you kind of hook into that right you go i want to follow whatever that is yeah and and it's funny how those things work out because i've managed to find my way to to his teacher in la and i found i found her and she found me and we became who's that a woman that doesn't like to be talked about. Oh, really? Her name is Greta Seacat, and she's a very modest, humble person. She likes just doing what she does. Do you do her per project, or do you do a study with her? I started studying with her.

I was introduced to her through a mutual friend, just kind of fortuitously, and I did some workshops with her. And her and her mother, who invented the technique that Greta kind of is keeping alive. Her mother invented it? Yeah, invented the technique. Who's her mother?

Her mother is Sandra Seacat, who plays my mother in Under the Banner of Heaven. Ah, really? Yeah, she's a really, really famous... She's great. She's a fine actress. She's a genius actress and she was she studied with lee strasberg back in the 80s in new york at the actor's studio and lee strasberg

i believe asked her or floated the idea of her taking over the studio and so she's of that you know people see her she's a method she's a method that whole era of actor is yeah i mean that's the gold standard for film acting i think for sure There's been a lot of misconceptions around, like, what method acting is, I think. Yeah, there's a huge book that was just written that I didn't read. Oh, yeah, no, I saw the cover of that as well. I think I had it next to me alone at dinner sometime. I think the angle is the mythologizing of the idea of it versus what it really was. Yeah, and is, because people are still acting in that

way and it's not it's not about um you know being an asshole to everyone on set you know it's it's actually just about living living truthfully under imagined circumstances and being really nice to the crew simultaneously and being a normal human being and being able to to drop it when you need to um and staying in it when you when you want to stay in it i'm i'm kind of bothered by the misconception i'm kind of bothered by this idea of like method acting is fucking bullshit it's like no i don't think you know what method acting is if you're calling it bullshit or you're just or you just worked with someone who claims to be a method actor that actually isn't acting the method at all and it's also very private like i think the the process of creating i don't want people to see the fucking yeah the pipes of my

toilet like i don't want to see how i'm making the sausage yeah like so anyway it's but but it but it is really really profound work that um that that greta and her mother sandra do and work that um that that greta and her mother sandra do and being in a scene with ryan gosling in that moment yeah i was like it feels like he's out of control and i think he wasn't but he was letting himself be driven by things you look at like pacino and dog day you could pacino and anything yeah but i'm thinking specifically now about like dog day afternoon sure that's it that's the one and you see someone that's just following his impulses. Like every single impulse is, is raw and it's real and it's great and it's vulnerable and it's grotesque and it's beautiful.

So many long shots too. Yeah. Pacing around. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

It's, it's that, that. And then you look at, you think about, I think about, oh man, you're getting me excited

about acting again because i've been kind of tired um like it's nice thinking about i'm thinking about de niro in the mission or de niro in yeah in deer hunter there's two scenes that of de niro's that maybe solidify him as our greatest living actor which scenes well the scene in the mission where he's paying his penance uh it makes me want to cry. And he's tied all that armor and all the bags and the ropes as they're climbing up that mountain to reach that indigenous tribe. And they get to the top, what seems like the top, and he won't drop this thing. He won't drop this penance.

He feels so ashamed for killing his brother, I think, at the beginning of the film. And one of the natives, one of the local, one of the indigenous people, they see him and they approach him and they pull out a knife and he thinks he's about to get his throat slit

for whatever reason. And one of the indigenous people cuts the tie of this penance and this heavy armor, And one of the indigenous people cuts the tie of this penance. And this heavy armor, these boulders that he's been carrying up this mountain. And you see this beautiful shot of them falling off this cliffside with a waterfall in the background. And you see De Niro. Every single moment is so pure. You see him seeing it, feel it it fall off seeing it fall off a bunch of

mysterious shit happens in his body in his psyche and it's like you're witnessing someone forgive himself in real time for all of the sins that he's committed up until that point you see the human process of self-forgiveness or a feeling like you've been forgiven by god that you can live um peacefully again like you've done your time right and it all happens in 30 seconds yeah and he manages to give us that universal i don't know the thing that we all know somehow even though we haven't maybe experienced it to that degree gives us it in 30 seconds and that's that's the other thing what was the other scene is um the first russian roulette scene oh yeah yeah he's looking at like yeah yeah but the impulse is like like the the wildness when they're hitting when the guy's smacking yeah yeah yeah yeah like the

the the seeing seeing an actor seeing an artist so free any artist painter whatever it is comedian like yeah without censorship with with with with a open raw kind of vulnerable heart and a trust of themselves and a longing to reach deeper yeah that's it and i that is it and and i think uh you know these are all these are all our great method actors did you see when was the last time you watched The Verdict with Paul Newman? I don't think I've ever seen The Verdict. Oh, man, that's exciting. I get to watch The Verdict tonight. Sidney Lumet.

I love Lumet. He's my favorite. And it's Newman in his 50s, late 50s, playing a loser. And there's a couple moments in that. Self-revelation. Well, yeah, the battle between his that. Self-revelation. Well, yeah, the battle between his ego and the realization that he's made a mistake. Wow.

It's pretty great. Did you read Lumet's book, Making Movies? No, I haven't, though. You have a bunch of books. I noticed you have a bunch of very pristine-looking books on the shelf. You didn't go upstairs. I got hundreds. That's impressive.

You're a real book buyer. Yeah, I have them. Yeah, I got plans. I've ventured into many. But that one was... Dude, it's really easy. It's a really easy book to read. It's really cool.

Lynn Shelton, the woman who I was with, who passed away, she loves that book. And I have her copy of it. And I know it's an important book. I'm so sorry about that. Oh, yeah. I'm sorry. Oh, yeah, thanks. It's a wonderful book.

Yeah. I didn't mean to bring it up and bum you out. No, no, no. I'm just sorry. But you should watch that movie. I definitely will. I've been watching some old movies, man. What have you been watching?

I've been watching those boxing movies on Criterion. Fat City with Stacey Keech. It's a John Huston-directed movie. And the woman's name is Susan Terrell. And it is one of the amazing performances. Jeff Bridges is in it. Yeah. Fat city.

I'm writing this down. Yeah, it's kind of a sad boxing movie. Oh, he definitely watched The Verdict, though. Yeah. He'd never seen it because it's a real treat. Well, Lumet. I love Lumet because he would talk about it. He says it.

He talks about it in the book. He's like, an actor needs to have moments of self-revelation, otherwise I send them home. It has to be self-revelatory. Oh, yeah. Interesting. Remember that scene in Network? Yeah. With, where, what's his name?

The great, the great older actor. Finch? No, the other one. William Holden. Holden. Yeah. Where Holden has to confess to his wife about. Oh, the affair. Theen. Yeah. Where Holden has to confess to his wife about- Oh, the affair.

The affair. Yeah. And I think he came in on the day they were shooting and it was just kind of not happening. Uh-huh. And I think Lou- I think it's in the book, so I don't think I'm blowing anyone's spot up here. Okay. Like 50 years ago at this point.

No one's going to hear it. I don't think- They're all dead. I don't think they're listening to the podcast. Or they might be listening to everything, but they're all dead. But how wild that I'm suddenly here feeling bad about gossiping about- About Sidney Lumet's take on William Holden. It's like, I got some hot gossip for you, Mark.

About William Holden. Keep it on the down low. You'll never guess what Lumet said about Holden. Lumet was like, hey, what's going on? And Holden was like, what do you mean? And Lumet was like, you know what I mean. I'm paraphrasing. Or maybe this is literally what was said.

And Holden was like, I know what you mean. And Lumet said, okay, come back tomorrow and bring all of that. Because Holden just had a big affair. And I think he was going through a divorce and he was like, he was like, I need you to bring that stuff

because otherwise there's no scene here and I've got you just know that I've got you and know that it's going to serve a lot of people if you reveal this. And he came back

and gave that. Well, I remember that scene because the stunning part of that scene is the wife. Who won the Academy Award for one scene. That's an incredible scene. It's such a great film as well.

That's the thing about him as a director is that you never feel him in his movies. It's always about the story. And he's different from movie to movie a little bit. Prince of the City. It's all... And then the great um serpico like yeah the style is always the style that supports the film did he do dog day who did dog day yeah that's crazy man it's not all those yeah long takes his time he had a real streak

he had a real incredible streak and he started in the theater as well yeah i uh was he was he in the was he with the method gang i think he was he was a little bit he was a little bit an offshoot he wasn't entirely i think he was a bit more of a journeyman a director at the beginning you know he'd been around a long time 12 angry men right yeah yeah and all and that was his first that was his first movie yeah he's because Jack Warden's in The Verdict. Oh, wow. Okay. It's great.

Because he's an old man. I have a night in tonight. I'm going to watch The Verdict. Thank you. That's so exciting. Thank you. That's great. Because it's an early Mammoth script.

So it's tight. I think the only Mammoth thing I ever really loved was the movie of Glenn Gary Glen Ross. That's pretty great. I like other Mammoth. I was bothered by the book he, Glenn Ross. That's pretty great. I like other moments. I was bothered by the book he wrote about acting. Terrible. It was like, shut up, say your lines, and fucking get out of my face.

And also this idea that anyone could do it. Yeah, no, yeah, yeah. It was bothersome. Yeah, I don't know. And arrogant. I struggled with it. Sorry, I'm just playing with your things at this point. That's why they're there, yeah.

When I say things, just for clarity, you listen at home and say it's a yeah and uh an old school kind of that's a hard thing you're the exercise hand exerciser exerciser that i wonder yeah some people pick it up it's like a hard one i don't know where it came from i think it was in a swag box of some kind is this stuff you just put out for people to well in my in my old garage, I had a lot more clutter. And, you know, there was shit all over the place in the original garage. And this is sort of the stuff that was on the desk in the old garage. But it sort of matched the rest of the environment.

Now it's just like a strange selection of things... I love it. ...to have out. How cool to have been alive when this was the iPhone. When that was the excitement? A spinning top? when the spinning top was yeah oh yeah the PS5 yeah I don't know if it was ever quite that but yeah I don't know man it was a fucking craze just before the hula hoop yeah so spinning top what um what so what is the process now before we go when you when and talking about the method essentially so when you played in that scorsese movie to work with him you know what were his expectations that's a pretty sparse movie it's you you go in with everything you imagine you would go in yeah with total excitement trepidation pinching yourself yeah awareness of how lucky you

are that you're one of the handful of people that has gone to work with the American masters of cinema and historian of cinema as well. Have you hung with him? No, I haven't. You'd have a great time with him. Sure. Because he's just fun.

He's like a funny dude. I've seen him talk, yeah. He knows a lot about movies and knows a lot about history and knows a lot about culture and people and just loves being a person it's like it's just hilarious he's almost he kind of is he's like the most jewish italian american that you've ever kind of come across yeah there's definitely a a relationship yeah for sure yeah um so so i went i went in with all of that and

and that was dispelled pretty quickly because of who he is. Because he's just very disarming and very ordinary with all of his extraordinariness. But then I gave myself a year. I gave myself a year to study with him. Study with an incredible Jesuit priest in New York called Father James Martin. Who's a writer. A fantastic Jesuit spiritual writer. York called Father James Martin, who's a writer, a fantastic Jesuit spiritual writer. Yeah.

And a great man. And he became my kind of friend and spiritual director for a year. And I just studied Catholicism. I studied the thing called the spiritual exercises. So, this is really interesting for nerds like me and you, I think. So, there's a through line to all of this. So the Ignatian spiritual exercises were a series of exercises

that were created by St. Ignatius of Loyola back in the 1400s, I believe, 1500s maybe. I'm not good with dates, but I'm good with other things. And it's basically a 31-day retreat that you do where you actively meditate on the life of Jesus Christ and you place yourself using your imagination into every single stage and scene and moment of the life of Christ from his inception to his resurrection. And it's, but, but it's, it's, it's more than just sitting and thinking you are actively imaginatively creating a relationship with Christ through a series of

prompts and questions. And you end up, you end up in a pretty deep space. And, uh, I was guided through this by this, um, this amazing priest, Father James Martin. And it's a transformational process. Like I had a relationship with an imagined Christ in my head by the time I had finished this retreat. And you didn't grow up with Christ? No, not at all. I grew up with an awareness.

I mean, how do you avoid Christ? No, I get it. But no, I didn't have a relationship with him at all. You weren't Jesus-ed. No, I wasn't Jesus-ed. And you know what I discovered? I discovered that Stanislavski, the creator of method acting,

based and was inspired by St. Ignatius' spiritual exercises to create his method of acting by imaginatively entering circumstances so fully that you feel like you've lived them cellularly but do you know that historically i do no i know that historically it's documented it's documented no shit you know what else what um bill who created the 12 steps yeah was he created the 12 steps with the jesuit priest and it was based on the oxford with the Jesuit priests and it was based on Oxford group it was based on st. Ignatius spiritual exercises yeah and also so that I think they came from originally from something called the

Oxford group which was a Christian thing which may have based it on that yeah I don't know about that but I know that Bill's buddy was a Jesuit and he was like check out these spiritual exercises and maybe this can be inspiring. And they created the 12 Steps Out of Them. It's like, yeah. So, I got to do the kind of the brass tacks, foundational spiritual work of what is. And Ignatius was really interesting because he was a soldier. He was a warrior and not religious or spiritual at all.

And he got wounded in battle and he was bedridden for, I think, maybe a year, a year and a half. And in that time, the only books that he had were these Catholic texts. And he had this spiritual awakening from just being completely, I don't know, waylaid and limited by this injury. So you went through this, the process of what Jesuit priests go through to kind of get in the zone of it, and it worked. And it coincided.

It worked. And I acted as a Jesuit. Yeah, but I mean. But it worked in the sense of. But it coincided with the method as well. Totally. It was just. The whole thing was revelatory.

I don't know if it worked, but it worked for me. It worked in a very beautiful kind of. I had an incredibly spiritual experience and combined with that i did i did a bunch of spiritual practices every day that that that i created new rituals for myself i was celibate for six months i wow i was um i you know and fasting a lot because me and adam had to lose a bunch of weight anyway so yeah i've added up so there was all these spiritual kind of practices that we got to do while we were praying meditating and you know had having all the intentions that we had as those characters wild it was very cool man i had some pretty wild trippy experiences from

starving myself of sex and food for that period of time of course yeah your brain's got to do something when you don't we're not when you're not satisfying any of that dopamine it's gonna go somewhere else gives you some gifts for sure yeah so what'd you do to prepare for uh uh jim baker yeah i thought you did a great job in all these movies. I'm sorry I got hung up on the more spiritual ones because they're deep shit. Yeah, yeah. No, Jim Baker was more about what it was to be deluded

and out of alignment with yourself, actually. It was the most painful. Both spiritually and sexually i guess yeah just just completely just entirely oh just just a it was it was a practice in in non-alignment it was a practice in self-delusion and greed and you know the stuff that doesn't shame for sure and the stuff that doesn't feed us that we think will feed us it doesn't it was like my opportunity to really get a taste of wow chasing the stuff chasing the murdoch stuff you know yeah and how about like working with her she's so jessica she's very talented yeah so good right yeah she's excellent she's a consumer actress for sure yeah crazy yeah and and uh in working with uh

And working with Lynn. Yeah, love Lynn. Have you spoken to Lynn? Yeah. Yeah. I love Lynn. Yeah, we had a great talk. He's great.

And that guy, to make a movie about that guy, about Jonathan. Yeah. I don't know what Lynn's relationship with him was. Was it just with the work? Yeah, they didn't know each other because Jonathan had died by the time Lynn was thinking thinking of becoming a playwright yeah but he was inspiration of the land Lynn says that they wouldn't be a Lynn there wouldn't be a Hamilton without that they wouldn't be in the house without rent sure and without Jonathan's well yeah and without tick tick boom actually yeah cuz it was a production of tick tick boom that really

galvanized Lynn to quit his day job as a substitute teacher and really focus on finishing in the heights. Yeah. So In the Heights wouldn't exist maybe without Jonathan and Tick, Tick, Boom. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, that's fucking cool.

In the Spider-Man movies, did you, like, what was the most important thing about putting that together? Was it the physicality? Did you find the acting challenging to make that guy? I find acting challenging in all regards. For me, for that, it was more the kind of responsibility of my first ever halloween costume was a felt spider-man costume that my mother that my mother had made by hand when i was three years old and combined with that knowing that i'm about to make a movie that a gajillion young boys are gonna watch yeah and and then and at the same time

i was i happened to be studying and old boys boys. And old boys, yeah, and forever boys. Forever boys, there you go, yeah. I was studying Joseph Campbell at the time as well. Sure. I was looking at Hero's Journey and mythology and folk tales. For that movie or just because? Just because. It happened to coincide.

And I was like, oh, wait a minute. And it was literally Campbell as if he was talking directly to my soul going, well, here's the thing you know what the people in the film industry don't realize anymore is that they are our myth makers now and that is their responsibility to tell us stories that give us meaning and that will provide structure and you're like spider-man no but actually yeah dude i know for real because i'm like okay i know that like the you know people you know you want to sell tickets and you want it to be a spectacle yeah but i suddenly was like oh fuck there's a bunch of teenage boys that are gonna that could get some medicine here that could get some structure that could get some inspiration that could get a deeper understanding of themselves right their

own ordinariness and how it intermingles with their own extraordinariness and maybe an idea of what their extraordinary extraordinaryness could be and and maybe maybe get given some solace and maybe get given some inspiration and so i i that was the main thing for me and that was the that was the joy of it for me it was like oh i get to have that opportunity of really trying to inject this with soul so and and uh the type of vulnerability that would be connect with voice. With like adolescent kids going through change. So no, it was a big deal for sure. So it seems like through the acting and coming back to what we talked about before

about the emptiness and not knowing initially and then finding this journey for yourself which turns out just by virtue of roles and your curiosity, there has been somewhat of a spiritual journey. yeah and then finding this journey for yourself which turns out just by virtue of roles and and your curiosity there has been somewhat of a a spiritual journey for sure man yeah yeah and now even now like in the wake of in the wake of losing mom like the emptiness is so vast you know the fact that my mother is no longer the the the space that that is left yeah and and the not only the space that it's left physically but but also i'm sure you can relate in your own with your own experience

and everything's rearranged i was living under an illusion before that she was going to be here forever whether i knew it or not i think i knew intellectually that we're all we all died but when yeah you thought you had some more time anyways yeah but that that visceral loss just totally is rearranging my understanding of what matters and what doesn't and and i think i'm trying my hardest to be with the that empty night sky and just listen and and try to pay attention rather than fill it with things that that may distract me for a minute but but ultimately won't uh won't bring me to a deeper a deeper version of whatever it is to be in this life you know what i'm saying i know exactly what you're saying a deeper what it is it's acceptance ultimately into a deep into reality into more reality well yeah because like i was talking to

somebody the other night because the weird thing about grief and obviously i'm not talking about a parent but i'm talking certainly about somebody i loved and thought i would have more time with it was at the beginning of something it wasn't you but, you know, it comes and goes and, you know, you feel visceral feelings of missing them. But then like something new is happening around living with the absence. Yes. So, which I think is what you're talking about when you say the space. Yep. Right?

Yeah. But the absence is very full. Yeah. You know? It's the fullest right and it's kind of interesting because it's eternal for you now yeah right yeah yeah yeah and it's a natural course of things uh-huh so that's the evolution of grief right to to to uh build the relationship with the absence and almost have a sort of passive, if not welcome expectation of the end of you in a way. How to die well, yeah. How do we die as well as possible?

Right, or accept the reality of it because that's really what it comes down to when you say someone's going to be there forever is that your brain doesn't, that's the reality of it. Because that's really what it comes down to when you say someone's going to be there forever. Is that your brain doesn't, you know, that's the curse of consciousness. Yeah. Is that, you know, we don't know what's going to happen and it's fucking terrifying. Yeah. But when you start losing people, you're going to be like, well, it's definitely happening.

And it's actually the only thing that makes this worth the time is knowing that it's finite. Yeah, yeah. Weirdly. Yeah. And I think that some of the stuff we're talking about, too, about the humility or whatever you're saying about getting older, the wisdom of it, is I think, however it's manifesting it's it's and it's if you have humility and you're not fighting it it's an acceptance of it of that that you know like all right this is gonna arc here and now is the time where i prepare as opposed to fight you got a lot of fighting old men that are making a real fucking mess of things do you know what i mean you got a lot of fighting old men that are making a real fucking mess of things.

Do you know what I mean? Mm-hmm. I'm curious about your relationship with the absence and what it's giving you and what, yeah, if I can ask that. Are you, what, what, Yeah, if I can ask that. I... There's no explaining it in terms of, you know, why or what. There's just no... So that's confounding, right?

So for me, you can't blame anybody. It's just something that happens. And so the whole premise of it is just fucking terrible. Right? Mm-hmm. Because you can't even rage. can't and there's no answers right i guess you could but but it serves nothing so so my relationship is you know and you seem to be doing it as well as that like

once you get past the trauma and, and, you know, through that, that tunnel of the extreme grief at the beginning, you can sort of like, you have a certain amount of control over, you know, how you want to experience those feelings. You know, like I just got flooded with them. Right. But you can't live like that every day. Right. So, you know, you have that relationship with whatever that

feeling is whatever that frequency is that that they were yeah but also sort of the knowledge that they're you know that they're eternal they're they're they're with you all the time you feel that like yeah and i do and i do and it's happening more and this is not even a woman who was my mother but like I feel that the presence of of what we had together whatever that was you know still informing my life yeah not in this not in a sort of like oh she told me that she told me that no but it's active yeah alive right hey right yeah man right yeah did you feel that in the acutely in the first few weeks no because like it happened quickly and tragically and you know and yeah like i mean i think that whatever you were able to go through to be present for somebody knowing yes that they

were going very different right to all of a sudden like out of nowhere like what the fuck is happening yeah what uh so sorry yeah it was terrible and i and i couldn't no i couldn't i i knew it happened yeah but i couldn't i couldn't i couldn't integrate it no of course not because i have no preparation and nor should you yeah there's no there's no way. It's so shocking. Yeah, it's like... And everybody loved her, and she had such a good will with everybody.

And I had... It was one of those situations where, you know, she had a long history with a lot of people in this community. I mean, she made movies. Yeah. And we were just really sort of starting our thing. So, like, I... The compounding horror of it was like, you know, I thought like finally, you know, we found each other and now we can ride the rest of this out.

You know what I mean? Oh, man. So what I, the way I look at it now is that like people can grieve a history with somebody, but to grieve possibility. Oh, buddy. Right. a history with somebody, but to grieve possibility. Oh, buddy. Right. So, and it, right, so, you know,

so the relationship with the absence can be a little, you know, how do you go, what's the next relationship? What do you, how do you, you know, how do you trust and all that shit? Of and i wasn't that good before you know i might i thought i had a shot so she's really got me she's stuck with me for a while that's um it makes me it makes me think thank you for sharing all that it's really beautiful to hear and i agree with you we don't talk about it i don't know why we it's hard it's hard but like i think it's hard because we don't have ritual around talking about it and we've been taught we've been encouraged to not fucking

talk about it we've been encouraged to avoid it have we or is it just i do think so dude we're we're a fucking look who we celebrate in our culture sorry not to get ragey that's right but look at the the we celebrate ascension. Always ascending, ascending, ascending. Denial of death. Denial of that we're going to live longer. It doesn't matter how the quality of life, we'll just live fucking longer. And if we fuck this planet up, we'll go to fucking Mars.

Right, right, right. Fuck you, man. Right, right, right. Fuck you. Did you read that book, The Denial of Death? No. You should. Ooh.

Good one. I will. Yeah, but yeah. But I agree with you and i think it is hard but it's i think it's only hard because we make we allow it to be hard well i think people are afraid of the vulnerability of it that's how i've been talking about it on stage is that you know all it doesn't require anything of you this idea that people are like well i don't know man yeah i don't i don't maybe i should wait a couple weeks to go over there you know his girlfriend

just died his mother just died like i don't know how to handle it. It's like when you make it about yourself, you're missing the real point is all you got to do is stand there. Literally. Or just send a text, actually. Well, that's fine. But I think we've all gotten too used to that. And I was grateful for a lot of the texts and everything. But to handle someone's grief, it requires almost nothing.

Literally, just presence. Just presence. Just presence. Bear witness, you know. Maybe touch a shoulder. Right? You all right, pal? Mark just acted out someone touching a shoulder. I wish you guys could have seen it because we all needed to see it.

Okay, I'm just doing it again and it's very good. But it makes me think of a couple of things and it makes me like what you said about there's no use in being angry and and who are you going to rage against and a sense of inevitability and acceptance right and and and obviously we're coming at this conversation with with with different um specific details right but for me you know i'm sat with my mother looking at her as she dies and i think how can this be how can this be how can this be but there was something that clicked thankfully in me pretty quickly i think because i had the time to prepare and i was willing to

kind of look at it yeah but i had to accept it as the greater opponent. I had to accept death as this tsunami that if we try and fight and beat, we're just going to end up drowning ourselves in more unnecessary anguish. There was something about the inevitability of it that was weirdly reassuring and deeply mysterious and confounding and i remember get diving into the water one day and i think it was in fire island yeah staying out there with a

friend and i was you know i had that resistance thing in my chest like that anxiety like it was just before she was um she was about to die yeah it was just this fucking pain that I couldn't move. I couldn't shift. And whatever, I instinctively went to the ocean. I just kind of like submerged myself and I suddenly just got this download from the water. It was weird, man.

It was like... Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It was like... The expanse? It was like... It told me everything. It was like... It basically just gave it to me

in this one rush. And I understood that I wasn't special. I understood that what I was... That's it. What I was going through It was like, it basically just gave it to me in this one rush. And I understood that I wasn't special. I understood that what I was going through felt incredibly acutely unique. And like no one else had been through this agony before. But for whatever, that wave gave me the information that it had been healing people through grief for the last millennia and beyond. Like reptiles lose their mother reptiles. Right, sure.

This is the way it's been since the beginning of time. And welcome to the club of life. Right. Welcome to the living. Welcome to the land of the actual living. Exactly. It's pretty wild. Yes. Because I have been saying that the three things that stuck with me fairly quickly was that I'm not the victim.

She was. One. The second thing was there's nothing unusual about what's happening. Zero. I mean, not just death, but there's nothing. It's like sometimes people die tragically. It's going to happen. There's nothing unusual about the experience I'm experiencing.

I'm not alone in it. No. In any way. way 100 and then the other thing was may her memory be a blessing that jewish thing the idea of that get to that yes yeah yeah yeah that was it that's good man well yeah that's good shit no that's really good shit but you know in like a lot of indigenous cultures they would they would give the grieving unlimited time off of tribal duties. Oh, yeah. And they would assign them a buddy to make sure that they were eating, drinking, and that no one interfered in their grief. act crazy strip naked sleep under a tree eat the tree bark sure slap themselves yeah enough where you're not like doing long-lasting damage so the buddy is there to make sure they that they don't really hurt themselves yeah or kill themselves yeah um and make sure that they're fed and if

someone goes by goes what's that crazy person doing that the buddy's there to be like no no they're in grief oh okay cool oh yeah that it. Like, that was our original impulse as a species. Well, the Jews do the Shiva thing. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. Slightly more formal, but. Formal, but it's supposed to serve the, I think. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it was COVID, you know, I didn't get any of that,

but I don't know if I would have understood it anyways. But I am sort of processing. I think we understand it innately. Yeah, I am processing it. You know, well, I didn't understand, like, I am processing it. Well, I didn't understand. I'm not great with allowing myself to be loved or taken care of, really.

I resist it. Yeah, yeah. My grief, because I'm trying to keep it together, because I resist the emotion of it, throughout all of this time, and it's been over two years it would surprise me like I would this emotion would come out of me and I'd be you know

crying uncontrollably over like a plate of enchiladas with a friend of mine because I went to Taos and I grew up in New Mexico I visited my friend Devin you know I didn't know what else to do

I'd go spend time and try to do the grief he was your grief buddy well he didn't you know my friend, Devin. I didn't know what else to do. I'd go spend time and try to do the grief. He was your grief buddy. He knew what was happening, but I didn't know what was going to happen. I didn't know what was going to come. And it just comes. So I often wonder, did I do the wailing that I should? Because it still seems to be fairly active.

I mean, did you? I don't know. Do you feel like you had that like It's not even anger Just a feeling of sadness and loss That is exhausting Yeah To me it trickles out

I did a lot of it You know Yeah I mean But again it's I think that's okay I don't know No of course everything's okay Everything's okay

But you leave it to me I'm sort of like I don't know yeah no of course everything's okay everything's okay but you leave it to me I'm sort of like I'm not sure I did the grief good you know how did I do Evan how did I do that one week of grief I did with you I didn't get it all out yeah no I listen no I'm with you it's no I get hit I sat in my garden in London recently with my dad my dad just came over and we sat in silence for about 20 minutes i had this new garden in in london and we both just started talking telekinetically we were just kind of silently solving together just like with it and it was literally an empty stool ahead of us and you know we were both just thinking you know exactly what we were thinking right where is she she should be here not only that but she would i wish she had seen this garden i wish she had seen the a thing that i'd made for for people to for her to enjoy you

know all these all these so no i mean like but i don't want it to go actually like i don't want it to leave and i think that wailing that you so eloquently eloquently kind of expressed is it's i feel like it's actually it's the love that we didn't get to give which is eternal there's never when it's never gonna be given like the love that i the love that we have for the people that we really love yeah it's it i think what another thing i learned in this process i actually learned what unconditioned unconditional love was this i felt it I feel it visceral. I'm like, oh no, I love this person's essence infinitely. There's no end to it.

It's a source that will never, ever dry up. Right. But also the thing that you have to stay in though, which it seems like you are and that I'm trying to, is I think I was a,

I do think I was at my best when I, through her eyes. So it's also about allowing yourself to continue to receive the love that was forthcoming. Oh, yeah. 100%, dude. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. All right.

All right. But that is how we honor. That's how we honor. Yeah, yeah. It's like to keep their eyes on us, actually. Yeah. Well, yeah, that's where I'm at now. That's the sort of like proactive living with the absence.

Right, yeah. Right. And that's what my dad's doing. God bless him. My God, man, 40-odd years of marriage, you know, and he's having to contend with our childhood home, our family home where she's in every single corner. Oh, God.

That's the one thing I learned from the experience is like i really got to get rid of some shit because i mean just for me you know i saw what happened to a lot of her stuff and it's going to happen to anybody's stuff it's like do we keep this does anyone anyone want this? And at some point, someone's got to go like, nope. But I guess there's no way to really sort that out. You don't want to do a pre-death cleansing of your home. No. That feels more like a natural thing. I don't know.

It is. And it happens every day, all over, all the time. Right now. Someone crying saying, does anyone want this? I found an old LA Dodgers t-shirt at my dad's place. Yeah. It was hers and that one, I've taken that one. I got a hat and I got some boots and I got a jacket and I got about four shirts.

And the one I met her in I kept it. I have that. Sweet. Yeah. Good talking to you, man. Good talking to you. Thanks, Mark. That was a nice conversation. Real shit. Real deal.

Emotionally connected. We were connected. Beautiful. So, Under the Banner of Heaven is streaming now on Hulu. Good luck to Andrew at the Emmys. Can you hang out a second, please? Thank you. It's hockey season, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats.

Well, almost, almost anything. So, no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice? Yes, we deliver those. Goal tenders, no. But chicken tenders, yes. Because those are groceries, and we deliver those, too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, alcohol, and other everyday essentials.

Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category.

And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. We're posting the latest Ask Mark Anything tomorrow for the Full Marin subscribers on WTF Plus.

If you submitted a question last week, chances are I answered it. I tried to get to most of them. If you haven't subscribed to the Full Marin yet, go to the link in the episode description or click on WTF Plus at WTFpod.com. Listen, here we go. I'm in Tucson, Arizona at the Rialto Theater on September 16th.

Phoenix, Arizona at Stand Up Live on September 17th. Boulder, Colorado at the Boulder Theater on September 22nd. Fort Collins, Colorado at the Lincoln Center on September 23rd, and Toronto, Ontario at the Queen Elizabeth Theatre on September 30th and October 1st. London, England, and Dublin, Ireland, I'll be coming to you in October. And my dates for November and December are now on sale for the public. That's in Oklahoma City, Dallas, San Antonio, Houston, Eugene, Oregon, Bend, Oregon, Asheville, North Carolina, and Nashville, Tennessee. Go to WTFpod.com slash tour for all dates and ticket info.

Here's some clunky guitar. Here is some clunky guitar. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. ¶¶ Boomer lives. Monkey and Lafonda. Cat angels everywhere.