WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1361 - Simu Liu

Episode Date: August 29, 2022

Simu Liu is now an entrenched member of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, thanks to his portrayal of superhero Shang Chi. But Simu has his own origin story worthy of a comic book arc. Simu tells Marc how he left China at four years old and was raised by studious parents in Canada.. Only after losing his accounting job did Simu begin a secret life as an actor, an identity he kept hidden from his family until he could no longer fly under the radar. They also talk about Simu’s breakthrough in Kim’s Convenience, improving the representation of Asians in North American media, and the responsibility of being an Asian American superhero. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated

category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Be honest. When was the last time you thought about your current business insurance policy? If your existing business insurance policy is renewing on autopilot each year without checking out Zensurance, you're probably spending more than you need. That's why you need to switch to low-cost coverage from Zensurance before your policy renews this year. Zensurance does all the heavy lifting to find a policy, covering only what you need, and policies start at only $19 per month.

So if your policy is renewing soon, go to Zensurance and fill out a quote. Zensurance. Mind your business. Lock the gates! is renewing soon, go to Zensurance and fill out a quote. Zensurance, mind your business. All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fuck, Knicks? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast. Welcome to it. Today on the show, I have Simu Liu is here. Most people know him as Shang-Chi from the Marvel movie Shang-Chi and the Legend of the Ten Rings. And no, he didn't bring the rings. I asked him if he could have, but it was not an option. He's also from the Canadian series Kim's Convenience, and he'll be in the new Greta Gerwig Barbie movie.

He just wrote a book about the story of his family immigrating from China to Canada and his upbringing called We Were Dreamers. And it was a great conversation. It's always interesting for me to talk to somebody that has an entirely different origin story than me. I'm not talking about Shang-Chi. I'm talking about Simu Liu.

The origin story is different. And I watched it. I watched his Marvel movie. I watched this one. I watched the Shang-Chi and the legend of the ten rings it was probably the first marvel movie i'd really watched since the first or second iron man though i've whined about marvel movies and i've judged them and i've and i've and i've shook my fists at the sky where the marvel universe resides but i it, and I enjoyed it.

I think it's basically a kung fu movie. I think it's a martial arts movie. And I enjoyed the dragon. I enjoyed the specifically Asian good dragon in Shang-Chi. And I also have Disney Plus now for research. But I realized that I can start watching all the Marvel movies. This was an idea that I had maybe a year or so ago. I discussed it with my producer, Brendan McDonald, that maybe it's time that I just go through the entire Marvel movie thing.

That might radicalize me. It's like intentional radicalization like to just watch it like uh like the character in a clockwork orange just sit on my couch with my eye my eyes peeled open by a strange uh machines have somebody there to squirt drops into my eyes so I don't blink and I don't dry up and just run through all the Marvel movies, all of them in order. And I will be born again Marvel. I will be a Marvel nerd. I will be that guy. So there's the risk of self-radicalization if i embark on this experiment and self-radicalization in this context really looks like me saying they're not that bad yeah i enjoyed them i enjoyed this one over that one didn't love that one not that bad that would be the extent of it i'm not gonna be like holy shit you know when when is uh the next avengers movie come what's the next one coming out

once you're coming out because i i don't know what to do with my life i don't know who i am without them i need a marvel movie to look forward to i don't know what to do it turned in rod steiger at the end i don't know if i'm going to go that far but we'll see we will see listen tickets to my hbo special taping at the Town Hall in New York City are on sale now. It's happening on Thursday, December 8th. Go to Ticketmaster.com or get the link on WTFpod.com slash tour. Do that. I'm excited about that.

I've got to figure out what I'm going to be doing exactly and how we're going to shoot it and what it's all going to look like. That process is starting. I got very upset i get very upset like with the the spiraling of culture under the momentum of nerd spite and uh boomer rage i just can't you know i don't watch bill maher and i you know i flip by it and it's right in the middle of him. Why does he have to pander so heavily to monsters? Why does that guy want to be loved by monsters so badly? It's easy to make fun of liberals. Easy. But he's apologizing for the religious rights view on abortion hence women his argument was that they don't hate women

they just think it's murder yeah but they want to control women and every element of their lives to appease what they believe women should be what exactly is hate What does that look like? I got all worked up. The boomers raging against the dying of the light. Is that it? Is that Dylan Thomas raging against the dying of the light? Yeah. Yeah. That rage is, you know, it's going to burn it all down. Yeah, yeah, that rage is, you know, just going to burn it all down. Boomer rage against the dying of the light. And I'm speaking as the last, the tail end of the boomers.

Not the great generation, the selfish generation. Yahoo. Hey, man, so speaking of aging, got an implant in my mouth i got an implant it's been a process uh i'll share it with you because by the time i get it i don't know i don't even know if i'm gonna need the fucking tooth i don't know what that means but i had this molar that was a root canal so i didn't feel it as it was rotting up near the top of it had to come out so I got it pulled out and I got some bone grafting goo squirted up in the hole stitched up five months later new gum just a you know just there was just a back molar sitting there by itself with a big gap between it and the next tooth in a row i got my got used to sticking my

tongue up there in that empty space it was fun but i couldn't chew my food properly so phase two of this process is to put the uh to screw the molly into the drywall in my head got to put a molly in there an implant they call them but i think it's basically the same thing as a molly is that what you call them where you put that casing where you can put a screw in usually it's because you fucking strip the hole well this was they just cut it open up there and drilled away on local so i heard the i got the whole experience the vibrating skull the different uh bits and they screwed that fucking molly up in there that implant and then they put a plug on it like a cap so i got this little cap up there a couple of stitches and i gotta wait around for a few months then i gotta go to the my regular dentist this was the oral surgeon guy

and have him craft me a tooth i need a tooth crafted so i can chew properly and it will not rot with the rest of my mouth. It would be the last tooth standing. So that was exciting to be there at the dentist's office. The fuck was playing? There was some, there was all real oldies playing, you know, lollipop. And then disco music. You can ring my bell, ring my bell, you can ring my bell, ring my bell, my bell, ring-a-ling-a-ling. Ring-a-ling-a-ling. Ring-a-ling-a-ling. Ring my bell.

Good times, but it's up there. Long process, though. I'll learn about time. Because I will avoid things in the sense of like well not avoid it but i just don't think like getting things done that take a year i'm sort of like ah fuck what's the point but you know time goes by man it flies by as you get older which i'm feeling not a bad way okay listen to me sim. Simu Liu has a new book out. It's called We Were Dreamers,

an immigrant superhero origin story. It's available now wherever you get books. And we had a nice, broad-ranging conversation. It was nice to meet him. And it was fun to watch the movie. And I'm being honest. So this is me talking to Simu. It's winter, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost,

almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats, but meatballs, mozzarella balls, and arancini balls. Yes, we deliver those. Moose? No, but moose head? Yes, because that's alcohol and we deliver that too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, groceries, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Be honest. When was the last time you thought about your current business insurance policy? If your existing business insurance policy is renewing on autopilot each year

without checking out Zensurance, you're probably spending more than you need. That's why you need to switch to low-cost coverage from Zensurance before your policy renews this year. Zensurance does all the heavy lifting to find a policy, covering only what you need, and policies start at only $19 per month. So if your policy is renewing soon,

go to Zensurance and fill out a quote. Zensurance, fill out a quote. Zensurance, mind your business. So you're living the life, I think. I haven't seen someone drive up in a convertible in a long time oh man uh i yeah i can't take credit for it uh it's a it's a loner it's you know you know sometimes when when you're in these positions um which companies yeah you're oh you're a guy you have a hit movie or you're a person yeah um you know some car companies reach out and they're like well if you ever need anything and i was like well i've always wanted to drive a convertible and And they're like, great. So I don't know when I'm going to have to give it back, but I think I will eventually. What is it? It's a BMW M8.

Really? Yeah. And they just called you and said, do you want one of those? Kind of. Yeah. And I really, I thoroughly enjoy it. It looks pretty good. I was sitting out there on the porch cutting up boxes and then I just, I hear some music and I'm like, there on the porch cutting up boxes, and then I just hear some music, and I'm like, is he the kind of guy that's going to drive up pounding music? And there you were in the convertible. It's better in a convertible. I'm having a midlife crisis at 33. No, maybe you're just enjoying your success, as they say.

Maybe that's it. Yeah. How long have you lived out here? You know, I started coming out for pilot seasons as early as maybe 2016. Oh, yeah. But as I told you on the way in, I just recently bought a house. So it's really less than a year that I've really had firm roots here. And even then, it's like nothing ever really shoots here.

So I'm always away from it. The whole thing concerns me. Outside of the water running out, it's like, why are we all here still? If nothing shoots here. I don't know who lives here and who doesn't. I think there's still a community of people, but it seems like most people are splitting. Right, right.

Right? Yeah. Yeah. The move into Vegas. Some people I know are moving to Hawaii. Hawaii. Vegas I don't get. But Hawaii, I can understand. Yeah, maybe it's a land thing.

I guess, but there's not going to be any water in Vegas either. No, no, they're not going to get out there. It's really going to come down to water. Yeah. It's like, you're going to have to move. We're all going to have to go to some red states. That is very suspect. I mean, I'm from Toronto in Canada.

Toronto's obviously right next to, it borders Lake Ontario. And I grew up around the Great Lakes. So it is very ironic that I moved here. I love Toronto. Yeah, I don't know why. I just applied for permanent residency. Seriously? Yeah.

A lot of people talk about it, but that's... No, I did it. It takes forever to process. Because I don't think people understand that that's that that program permanent residency is more like a green card yes so i'm like why the fuck not like it it could take two to three years to process a thing and by then the requirement is to spend two out of five years up there not in a row and i'm like i'll be ready you know if everything works everything works well, I'll be like, you know, 61. And like, why not?

Where would you go, do you think? Where would you spend your two years? Look, to be honest with you, I don't have a problem with Toronto. I don't have a problem with any place that I've been other than Edmonton and Winnipeg. Like, I like Vancouver. I don't think I could live in Winnipeg. I'm in a Winnipeg shade, yeah, yeah.

I spent, I did like two months in Winnipeg in the middle of winter. I was doing theater. Yeah. Oh, really? Premiering a play called V two months in Winnipeg in the middle of winter. I was doing theater. Yeah. Oh, really? I was premiering a play called Viet Cong in Winnipeg. And yeah, I hear you. I hear you.

Yeah. I hear the summers are great, but it's like two months. Yeah, I mean, I don't have any problem with the people of Winnipeg. It's actually a fairly progressive, arty little place. But the weather's a little rough. It's a little rough it's a little rough it's not great so wait when when was that play via what is it via gone yeah that was uh that was the last theater that i did actually that was in uh it was in 2018 and um you know i read this

play that i was intensely passionate about and it was about you know vietnamese refugees but it was such a an interesting take on it because you know i, I feel like a lot of Americans' exposure to the Vietnam War is from obviously a very American-centric perspective. Yeah, we lost and no one's happy. Yeah, and then it's, you know, it's all about the GI that comes into the, you know, comes into the exotic foreign place. Right, gets strung out on heroin. Sure, sure. And maybe, you know, and so then the Vietnamese people, the Asian people are treated kind of like a backdrop. Right. And so Viet Cong is a story about Vietnamese refugees.

And what I really appreciated about it too is like this really interesting reversal where all the main characters who are Vietnamese spoke English, but then all the Americans spoke like gibberish. So if someone was speaking English on stage, they would be saying like, yeah, like cheeseburger hot dog. Oh yeah. And then we'd be like, what is he saying? We have no idea.

Right. So it really humanizes the Vietnamese refugees. That's kind of funny. It was a lot of fun. Well, I thought that was what was great about the Ken Burns doc on Vietnam, that long, you know, multi, I don't remember how many episodes, but he really went and got the other side of the war. I mean, he talked to all the surviving Viet Cong generals and soldiers.

I mean, it was completely balanced. Right. Did you watch the entire thing? Oh, yeah. Because I've watched parts of it, but I haven't. Oh, yeah. I watched the whole thing.

I think I got it. I think I have it. I think I own it for whatever reason. They must have sent it to me. But I thought it was fascinating that that side of the story had, I mean, obviously historians and progressive journalists

captured it but he like went and found them and you know and some of them are still in power the thing that's wild to me is i mean i have many vietnamese american and vietnamese canadian friends whose parents i mean you think of like you know the way that my parents grew up you know my parents are in their 60s yeah that's about the the way that you know many people way that my parents grew up, you know, my parents are in their 60s. Think about the way that, you know, many people who are my age and their parents who grew up, it's like, you know, my parents, for example,

immigrated from China, but like some of my Vietnamese friends, their parents' stories of how they escaped war, how they escaped the country, how they got here. Absolutely harrowing. And so just the most incredible but also the most brutal and awful stories i've ever heard and and those kids are one generation removed from from that but i think a lot of the the people that come from war their parents don't even talk about it yeah so you know they have to live with that like you know why is dad sad yeah yeah yeah you

know and you can't yeah i can't talk about it but uh but yeah i mean i you know when i hear about jews who like escaped nazi germany and stuff but i was just thinking like even like like your parents come out of a china that's already you know very established kind of i i would you call it totalitarian um that's tough i would uh i i would shy away from from from that yeah um for self-preservation and also because when i hear my parents talk about it this is this is the thing that i've really had to figure out lately i published a book you know yeah last earlier this year is the thing that I've really had to figure out lately. I published a book earlier this year. And the thing that I realized is that in a lot of ways, even though I was born in China and I spent my first four and a half years in China, my impression of a lot of China has been colored by obviously Western media and Western narratives. I'm not saying those narratives

don't have validity to them. But when I talk to my parents about China, they have such a very, such a profoundly different viewpoint and it's not, and they don't view it as totalitarian. I think they view it as complex. I think they view it as, as nuanced. And I think, I think in no way, shape or form, do they believe that their, you know, their home country is, is perfect. But, but at at the same time i think they have a they have such a love of of their home right in the way that i love growing up in the suburbs of mississauga you know yeah nothing will ever i do i think that mississauga is like the greatest city on earth you know objectively no but but at the same time i i loved so so much of my childhood is there. All of my, you know, so many of my core, you know, foundational memories are there. I can tell you like fairly objectively that it's not the greatest city in the world.

Mississauga? Yeah. Have you ever been to Mississauga? I have. Okay. I was just there. Okay. But I can't say that I saw the place. I shot at a studio in Mississauga yeah i've ever been to mississauga i have okay i was just there okay but i can't say that i saw the place i shot at a studio in mississauga yes there's some studio space yeah

yeah but i don't i don't know that i would know where the city was or what that town looks like it's just i mean it's um it's it's about half an hour outside of the city of toronto exactly which is kind of like a you know it's a hub it's very It's very, it's New York-esque. But, um, it's, the best way I could describe it is like, if you, if, if you took like a million people's worth of, of like just, um, of like McMansions and like those model home developments and, and it's just like, it's just all it is for, for rows. And that's what it is. And then like an Applebee's and a mandarin buffet it was a chinese buffet that that gets absolutely slammed on the weekends and you have to wait two

hours that's one thing i noticed about about uh canada is that asian population is huge yeah yeah i think i grew you know we're the um you know i grew up being the i think the predominant minority population. Whereas I think here in the state, it was just different. It felt different. But we're fourth. Yeah. Here.

Here. Sorry. Keep trying. You can be number one. You know, work harder. Yeah. But what I was thinking, though, in terms of growing up as your parents must have. I mean, obviously, you know, China's history is vast and, you know, older than most.

And there's that whole history. But the idea of adapting to a revolutionary and restrictive political environment is something that is happening here. restrictive political environment is something that is happening here. And so like, you know, to me, it's sort of like when you talk about your parents sort of like, well, that was the China they lived in. It was complex. And is that eventually as things unfold politically, like there are people that live in these states that are fascist, but they're like in blue cities and they're like, it's OK. You know, it doesn't really apply to me. You know, it's kind of interesting the way the brain works and what you can adapt to and the scope of your life i i hear that i 100 hear that i think it's i think it's too it's it's very different when you criticize your own home sure versus when you hear somebody else criticizing you yeah you know i think i think

it's like when you have ownership over something you feel you feel like you have a right to say this is everything that's wrong with with our country this is everything that's wrong right right right and when somebody else comes in you're like, whoa. Hang on a second Hang on. That's my yeah, America. You're talking. Yeah, that's that's Canada. You're talking about. Yeah, don't make fun of our fucked-up country Yeah, we'll do that. Yeah, we'll do that. So when You were four years old when you left China. Yeah, I was four and a half So I um when I was Shortly after I was born my parents actually left me in the care of my grandparents to go and study, um, in, in Queens university in Canada.

So I was raised by my yeah, yeah. And my night, night until I was, I was four and a half. And one day literally my, my dad shows up at the door and it's like, hello, I'm your, I'm your dad. First of all, you had to introduce himself to me because he was a total stranger. And then he's, and then he said, I'm he said, I'm here to bring you to Canada. It's time. It's time.

Yeah. And it was so hard for me because I was being sold on this vision of this utopic paradise, right? Of everything is better in Canada. You have such a great time in Canada. And I kept, I was just like, but I just want to be here. With your grandmother. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And who are my only parental figures at the time. And I loved quite a bit. How's your Chinese still good? It's eroding every single day. It is. Um, yeah, I would, I would go back, uh, in the summer times when I was a teenager for, for like, you know, three or four weeks.

Cause I obviously I wanted to spend every possible moment with my grandparents as I could and my family in China. And I'd always come back from those trips, like with full fluency, being able to hold a conversation, talk about, you know, so many different things. And then I stopped going back for a multitude of reasons. I think maybe most prominent of all being I was laid off from my job and then decided to become an actor. And so for, I think a very long time, I was kind of like the black sheep of the family that nobody wanted to acknowledge. So that stopped you from going back to China well yeah um yeah my parents would go back and would see family and it would just be such a sore spot I mean our

my relationship with them wasn't good so then it was like it was like uh we shouldn't you know so it was shame shame driven oh absolutely I mean my parents are are academic and you know academics um they're electrical engineers like everyone from our side of the family in China was like, this is the, you know, my parents were the ones that, that, that, you know, left to pursue these amazing opportunities, raised a son who, you know, you know, in Canada, who was supposed to be like, yeah, the prodigal, you know, the prodigal heir. And then all of a sudden they're like, he, what, he got fired from his job and now he wants to be an actor? Like what?

But that's so, I mean, it's gone crazy. I've talked to sort of first generation children of immigrants who get this pressure. You know, that pressure is insane. Like I've talked to a few different people who had to really fight the fight to aggressively disappoint their parents to find personal success. Yeah, it's, you know, it's definitely hard. I mean, now that I've grown up and I look back, it's nowhere near as hard as the journey that my parents went through to, you know, be able to immigrate. But it's tough too. Yeah, it's tough balancing the expectations of your parents. It's tough growing up in a multi-generational and multicultural household where the world that

you're participating in is very different from the world that is at home. And so sometimes your parents, you know, my parents, certainly, their thoughts, their worldviews, their norms were very much at odds with what I was being taught out in the world. Well, here out in the world, I'm sorry to interrupt you, but it's to realize yourself. Yes. Oh, absolutely. Which is a Western idea. Very much so. I think when you come from an education-driven practical culture-

That's exactly it. Yeah. Where you're expected to just work within the system and prosper. It's a whole different mindset. And, you know, it wasn't like artists didn't exist in China, right? But my parents certainly weren't it. My parents, you know, have been validated. Their success has been validated by academic achievement and study and, you know, and working hard in a very specific and structured way.

So, of course, that was their worldview. That was their one thing that they could pass on to their kids. So you have empathy now? Yes, I do. Yes, yes, I do. But not always. We've worked through it. No, no, certainly not always.

Certainly not always. So you come here when you're four and a half, and then at some point they literally stopped taking you to see your grandma? I mean, that came a lot later. That came at like age 22. But yeah, it was, I mean. It was like, we don't want this training. Yeah, it was like, we're going to go to China

and you just stay here. We've lost you. Kind of, yeah. So when you first get to Canada, was there a community that they were dug into? Was there a Chinese community? There was a bit. Yeah, there were, you know, they were, my father was doing his PhD in electrical engineering.

My mom was doing her master's. Yeah. And they lived in like this, you know, rent fixed apartment in Kingston, Ontario. Uh-huh. And kind of like an enclave of, of, of Chinese immigrants who were kind of going through the same thing. They were, they were studying, um, they had come from abroad. And so that was kind of the environment that we, that I spent my first few years in. Do you think, uh, just going back for a second, do you think that if you were to, uh, just to,

to misspeak about China, that you'd get flack? Um, flack? I think it's a very sensitive situation and I do not want either which way for my name to somehow come up in the middle of a geopolitical conflict that I quite frankly don't feel qualified to even begin to discuss. It happened to me and Seth Rogen when we were talking

about Israel. It just blew up. It was like some sort of global event that Seth had said what he said about Israeli Jews. Thank God I was in fame in a set enough to really be part

of the global conversation. Got it, got it. But he got that because he was the bigger. Okay, I understand. So I understand that sort of that self-censoring.

I understand that. Who needs that quick bait? Certainly not me. Yeah. You don't want to be the target. So you're in Ontario in an enclave, living in some sort of subsidized housing from the school. Yeah, yeah. Now, with the process of them becoming citizens, was that ever an issue?

Did they ever, I mean, I don't know how that works. Do you? No. ever an issue did they ever i mean i don't know how that works do you know my father my father has a very distinct story though of when he first landed and the customs officer was asking him if he was a refugee or an immigrant and and i remember i think he had said you know this is a big thing in the community yeah i think they were my dad is convinced that they were trying to to trick him because he um he arrived first arrived first without, without my mom. And, and he was very clear.

He was like, I am not a refugee. And they're like, are you sure? Because everybody coming from China is a refugee. And he's like, I'm not, I'm not escaping. I'm, I'm here to study. Yeah. And he was very, very clear about that. And what do you, I think what he realized later on was as a refugee, you had very different

rights and, um, um and he he was very adamant that he that he wasn't he was like i'm i'm a student oh so that was a pride thing too in a way it might i think so i think because like i guess a refugee is is seen as as somewhat a charitable like we're we have to help these people sure sure sure and not and of course like you know i i think i think i've been very i mean i've been very proud of the way that specifically the country of canada has handled refugees from all over the world oh yeah i'm you know i'm not saying in any which way yeah yeah yeah but just interesting that your father didn't yeah he wouldn't see himself and i think it was

more the connotation of like you know kind of you said, like refugee has has shades of like you're escaping a regime or you're you're a victim of war. Right. Yeah. And he was like, no, that's not it. That's not it. I had a dream. I'm going for it. I'm here to study. Yeah. Well, I talked about like in terms of Canada and just having some sort of, you know, exit plan or at least the possibility one was like, I don't want it to I don't want to get to the point where i show up as a refugee in canada you know i want to get to jump on that i understand yeah i support you in your journey to become a permanent resident in canada i fucking love canada now i mean i used to think it was a little boring and i'm not saying it isn't but maybe i'm ready for that right no i hear you i hear you it's it's a specific vibe and a speed i um i had to pay for health care for the first time last month oh yeah here i had to do uh and and i and i have health insurance

through sag sure but i i was getting a checkup because i my my back is is hurting i think i have like lower discs that kind of i have it too right now did you go to bob hope where'd you go i i went i don't know i think i saw it's somewhere in like the sag system i just told my manager to set something up oh wow you're right that's nice but i yeah it's very nice like the SAG system. I just told my manager to set something up. Oh, wow. You're right. That's nice. But I, yeah, it was very nice of him. Um, but I went in and then I, and I did the thing and then, and then they're like, that'll be X amount of dollars, please. And I was like, Oh, don't I thought I had health insurance. They're like, Oh no, it's a copay. Yeah. I was like a copay. So I'm paying a deductible. Sure. Get a check. Yeah. And I was like, that's wild. And I pulled out my wallet for the very first time in a clinic.

Because I can't stress this enough to all the American listeners out there. You don't do that in Canada. Yeah. Well, it must be sort of jarring. Welcome to America. Don't get too sick. It was very jarring. And it kind of colored for me the way that, I mean, it indicated to me the way that healthcare is just viewed here.

Yeah. You try to push it as much as you can before. Yeah, yeah. And I'm not saying that our healthcare system is perfect by any means, but it's like, it's certainly regular checkups are like a thing. Because you're like, even if you feel fine, like you need to go in. Go. Yeah. Well, that's, look, I mean, I don't know. I mean, I've heard it characterized negatively by Canadians and Americans in that, like, well, you got to wait.

You got to do this. Like, who cares? I mean, on some level, I mean, I think that informs the entire culture of Canada in a way. Just to have that taken care of, even if it's not great, is what a load off. To just know you can go to a doctor and and and to be and you know it's not all medication but certainly like life-saving medication cancer treatment medication i mean that's not anything that you it's not even a thought that occurs of like how am i going to pay for this right it's like how many how many american crime TV dramas about the father that has to turn to a life of crime because he can't pay for his sick family members' hospital bills.

Like how many of those would never exist in Canada? It's like we watch Breaking Bad and we're like, okay, that's a great show. Objectively. But like the core premise of that show just would not exist what civilized country would let that happen yeah here um so when you start growing up there uh what was the how how quick did the expectations start to manifest i would say i would say as soon as school started yeah as soon as school started i stopped I would say I stopped feeling like a child that was allowed to just kind of be free and play and discover. And I became almost like an athlete.

I was being pushed, except instead of basketball and t-ball, it was math. How were you with those things? I would say I got off to a pretty solid start i was i think by first by first grade i was doing long division long multiplication like i you know i yeah i was always the kid that was doing like the work that was a couple grades ahead well because your parents were doing it at home with you yeah yeah they were they were doing it at home they were bringing homework you know You know, I was doing, yeah, basically I was, I was training extra hours and, uh, and then, you know, a funny thing happened. You know, I think I was very happy to please them, but a funny thing happened is that, is that my balls dropped and I went through puberty and I started to, you know, I started

to realize, I think about like around the time, like fourth or fifth grade, people just like social hierarchies start to form. Like if you think about first grade, second classes like everyone's just kind of together right but once you like start to form hierarchies you start to have some sort of recognition of like who the cool kids are right and i just knew that i wasn't it yeah and so i was like well i kind of want i kind of want that i kind of want someone to tell me about social norms and hierarchies and how to just like be cool and make friends yeah and um that's where you have, you have to be friends with a cool kid, you know, be friends with a cool kid.

And you gotta, and you know, you gotta like, you know, you're gonna be able to hang. Yeah. I don't think my parents fostered those skills in me. The hanging skills.

Every time I asked them about it, they'd be like, why do you need, why do you need, you know, just your job is to study. Don't waste time with, don't waste time with that.

With friends. With friends. With, you know, and I was going through, I was, you know, having crushes on girls. I was like, I like i i nobody to help me navigate these things so

i started to really pull away from them and really reject their worldview because i was like i don't i don't want that i don't want that and that that was kind of the cause of a lot of conflict that arose in the interesting because do you think that's fundamentally Western? The idea of going through puberty? No, the idea of seeking out that lifestyle. It seems like that's got to be, you know, that seems like a standard, just strict parent thing. Yeah, I mean, look, I haven't been in school anywhere else. Yeah, yeah, right, right, right.

Well, I'm just wondering, I imagine that in China, there's definitely cool kids and parents. I would think so and parents yeah yeah yeah but but just being with those parents that are hanging the future of their name and and that's very true and the and the i uh and what they feel culturally is important yes yeah it's an extra added pressure it's not just having strict parents. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's sort of like, do you have brothers and sisters? Nope, only child. Only child. Oh my God.

Yeah, very much exactly. Oh my God. The disappointment possible. The most amount, if you imagine, yeah, the moment that I kind of came out to them as an actor.

Oh. One of the, probably one of the worst moments of my parents' lives. All right, so when you start pushing back, though, you're not,

but you're a good kid. You're not doing drugs or anything. Yeah, no, I guess not. I guess not. The rebellion was limited to,

like, you know. It was like video games and sports. No, I never. Sports is a rebellion. Yeah,

no, for whatever reason, I was never, like, too interested in experimenting with drugs. And now I'm, for whatever reason, I was never like too interested in, in experimenting with drugs. And now I'm kind of, now I kind of like, I don't want to say I regret it, but I, I sometimes

wish that I had like dropped acid once or twice as, as a young, as a younger teen or as a, an early college guy. You can actually do that now. And, and, and, and a lot of, uh, uh, new hipsters are doing it for just to, they think it's good for your brain once or twice a year. Right, right, once or twice a year. Scrub it out, do a little microdosing. I always do it like one time.

Yeah, you can do it. Just make sure you're hanging out with the right people. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You got friends who'll help you out and you're comfortable with. I'm sure my publicist did not expect this conversation to turn into. It's all right.

It's a human conversation. So when do you start to drift for real? When do the fights start? It would definitely be high school. So, I mean, I had tested into this private, you know, academically oriented high school, University of Toronto schools. Yeah. oriented high school university of toronto schools yeah and um so so serious about its academia that it's literally called the university of toronto schools yeah um like the best of the best yeah yeah yeah and and so you know my parents were now we're now paying for my education um

and and i think that came with like even more expectation but but i you know really relished that because I had to take a train and a subway to get there. It was a little far away. I actually really relished the freedom. So I took that as an opportunity to like make friends, hang out, be social, whatever. You're away. And for my parents, they're like, oh, what the hell did we spend all this money on? So I think that the urgency and the anxiety of that really manifested at that time. And that's when things got violent.

That's when they were physical. Violent? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know. With your dad? Name me. Both.

Both. I think most immigrant kids will have some sort of idea of what that feels like. But like what? Like with cooking instruments, hands? Cooking instruments, hands. And, you know, the absolute worst thing was was was trying to take a day off school like trying to be sick it was like you know now it's inconceivable in the age of the pandemic yeah it's like when if you're sick stay home but um but yeah i was

burning like uh burning like like a 99 or 100 degree fever and be like get your ass to school you're fine right you know go infect all the other kids right you gotta go you gotta go study oh my god so does it reach a boiling point i i feel like it did at many points but then um you know that i we still had to keep going you know there was there was a time in my junior year where i had to uh i ran away from home for a week but i like did the door it was like the dorkiest running away ever because i stayed at different friends houses every day but i still showed up at school and i still did my homework yeah it wasn't like it wasn't like i ended up in an underpass like right you were with a syringe attached to me exactly you were still honoring their desires sure i think what it was is like

even even in my deepest rebellious phase like i still couldn't ever divorce myself from their vision of success because that was the only vision of success that I had. Their expectations. Yeah. And I didn't have any model of anything different. Like I didn't know any young actors. All of my friends were like along that path. So I was like, well, I guess that's the only thing I could do. So did you follow through? Did I, sorry? Did you follow through with it? I went to, I went to school at the university of Western Ontario. I studied finance and accounting. And then, um, out of graduation, I got a job at Deloitte, uh, Deloitte and Touche, which is, which is one of the top four

accounting firms in the world. And your parents were excited. They were, I think excited slash relieved just because they obviously had had been such an acrimonious few years. And so, um, I think they were just, they were just really, they were like, oh, finally, the job is done. You finally made it. You did it. We can rest now. We delivered a kid. We delivered a kid that became a contributing member to society.

So you were doing no acting during high school? No, nothing. No, no. I wasn't like a theater geek. I mean, I loved movies. I loved going to the movies. But I guess I just never felt like innately i never felt like i either i could i never maybe gave myself permission to participate in that space but when were you

started to do the athletics um pretty much as soon as i i could uh pretty much as soon as i could once i started being able to stay out late from school and and realizing that my parents couldn't do anything about it right and but when did, you know, like martial arts and stuff, right? Um, yeah, I know. I know a little bit. I know a little bit. I would say a childhood thing. No, no. I definitely begged my parents to put me in karate when I was a kid. And they were like, no, that's stupid. Don't, don't do that. They couldn't even see the importance of, of learning healthy competition in a physical way. Uh, they put me in, to be fair, they, we compromised with soccer. I know. I think they weren't, they weren't, um, feeling the martial arts, but you know, I obviously that

growing up as a, as an Asian kid, love Jackie Chan movies. And so I was like, I want to, I want to be that, um, never quite got the chance in high school. I started break dancing, which again, completely different thing, but it's like a, it's like a body awareness thing. So I think there are transferable skills. You still got it? Uh, a little bit, a little bit. We got the bad back, you know? What's going on with yours?

Cause mine's fucked up and I don't even know how I fucked it up. Mine is like, um, like I used to be like a jumper. So I used to play a lot of, a ton of basketball, volleyball. And, and I don't know, I just feel like the lower discs have just kind of gotten a little swollen or they're rubbing up against each other. You got a hernia? You got a hernia? I don't know i just feel like the lower discs have just kind of gotten a little swollen or they're rubbing up against each other so now you got a hernia i don't think so i had an x-ray done again in the in at that time where i had to pull out my wallet and pay for health care for the first time in my life um but i had some x-rays done and i don't think um like a herniated disc was detected it wasn't like crazy serious it wasn't like an operation thing but it's

it's just whenever i play sports now maybe maybe about half an hour, 45 minutes in, I'll start to feel it. And then it just gets kind of progressively worse. How old are you? 33. Oh, you're already so young. Like I got this thing that I don't know. I think I did it sleeping.

Right, right, right, right. And I don't know what the, it just happened. That's the worst is when you hurt yourself doing nothing. Nothing at all. And I'm physical and i'm just like i woke and now i'm just sort of like how long am i gonna have to wait to start climbing and doing shit sure because i like because i'm on the road you got no control over your bed you know what i mean you take the bed that's given you take the bed that's given to you yes

by the best western or exactly or best available sure so all right so you're in you're in accounting you're in what is it a gray building is it in, what is it? A gray building? Is it horrible? Is it like, you know? Yeah, I'm in, I'm working on Bay street, which is the Canadian wall street. It's in, it's in Toronto. We're in suits. We're in suits, a shirt and certain tie every day. Kind of, um, you know, I lived, I lived just up the street. So every day I kind of took the elevator down and I joined this like zombie walk of everybody going into their cells and, and doing their jobs. And, um, it was, it was, it was a rough time for me. I picked just about the worst, the worst job in terms of like personality compatibility. I was like, I, you know, looking back and like, I'm clearly a creative. Yeah. Um, and, uh,

my God. So were you like depressed i was very depressed i was very depressed i would like lie awake in bed in the mornings and i would just wait until the last possible second before leaving and really just like every day was like it's a battle of wills just to be able to walk myself to the door yeah to get dressed yeah it was really really painful and and i thought up until that, because I also had felt that way in class and in all learning, you know, up until then, I just thought that was who I was. Like, I thought I was just a shitty person. I thought I was lazy. I thought I was under motivated. And then, and then, you know, crazy thing happened is I got laid off and I was devastated for some reason, because even though I wasn't engaged in the job and I hated it,

I still felt like it was the death of something. It was the death of something that I'd worked so hard to build toward. But then, you know, when I started in this acting journey or, you know, show business journey or whatever. Yeah. I saw this, like, I became this totally new person. I became the person that got up in the morning. Exactly. And, like, flew out the door.

Yeah. I became the person that checked Craigslist. You know, every single i just basically left no stone on turn i just wanted i wanted every possible opportunity was so hungry so it was like the bottoming out of your parents expect you were on you were sort of like got out from under your parents expectations not but by no choice your own really yeah really. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm, yeah. Like the choice was made for you, and you're like, okay. So what did they do? Well, I hid it from them for as long as I could.

How long was that? It was about three or four months. Oh, so you got a little wiggle room. I got a little head start, and I took my severance check from Deloitte, and I invested it in a set of headshots, and then living expenses for the next little while. Yeah.

And then I signed up to be an extra on movie sets. No acting classes. Eventually, eventually. But you just wanted to be part of it. I just wanted to be a part of it, and I didn't really know any acting. I had no access whatsoever. It was just all smoke and mirrors,

totally opaque industry, right? Right. You had no idea how anyone even gets to do it. Exactly, exactly. But then, you know, you show up to one set and you make some friends and they're like,

oh, you should go to this class or you should check this out. And so that was, I was just learning by doing every single day. Yeah. And then I was lucky enough to book like a national commercial

and that was the moment where I was like, oh, if I don't tell my parents, they're going to turn on the TV one day and they're going to see me. What was it for? It was for Bell Media, which is kind of like a,

an AT&T. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Small business commercial. Uh huh. And you had a speaking part.

I did not have a speaking part, but it was, it was, I think a very great exercise in improv. I played this like really bit, you know, I played a business owner through all stages of, of the business.

Right. So like in the beginning, taking the lease, you know, looking, looking at the store and being like, wow, we did it.'s like oh business is picking up so i've got a phone i've got a phone tucked on my shoulder and then i'm like directing somebody else i'm like oh hey no put that here things are so busy you know yeah and it's like bell let us help with your small

business solutions things you're so busy oh it's amazing i'm pulling this off uh all right so you told him yeah i told him and um and and i think in the beginning actually they were quite sympathetic because they believed that it was just like a weird manic phase that i was going through they were sympathetic for like your acting thing yeah they were they were like oh he's clearly going through some stuff right now he's gonna take he's obviously going to go back into the workforce at some point right so hey listen you know you you take some time right but then you know thank god it was you didn't have anything to do with quitting right the fact that you were laid off probably they enabled them to have some sympathy some sort of sympathy oh interesting yeah yeah yeah and then and then i think as time went on they were like oh, oh, he really thinks he's going to do this.

And that's when things got tense again. Now, like when you say tense, I mean, at that point, what power did they really have over you other than the expectations? Well, we had bought a condo together. With your parents? The agreement, yeah, which the agreement was that we would be, we would, you know, pave the mortgage together. All of a sudden I was unemployed, couldn't pay the mortgage. And so, you know, they were, they were effective.

Like they, they did help me out in, in that they didn't, you know, they didn't, they didn't charge me an exorbitant amount of rent. I was paying very, very little. And I think that really, I think the power over me is just that like they just made me feel like i was i was throwing away everything that they had but at that point you're you're a big kid so i imagine the physical abuse and whatnot stopped no it wasn't it wasn't the fights it was it was just like you know it was just passive aggressive, passive aggressive talks. And, you know, I remember one dinner, I tried to go home for dinner and I didn't even make it like 10 minutes in. And I was like, I have to, I have to go.

And to be fair, at that point, I did think that things were about to get, about to get violent. With who? Your father, mostly? My mom, my mom, my father. I mean, I mean, they both were, but my mom had a way with words. I mean, first of all, I need to preface, she's an incredible woman, so smart and hardworking. And if you read the book, We Were Dreamers, I have this entire chapter dedicated to her. It's one of my favorite chapters in the world. It's one of my favorite, sorry, it's my favorite chapter I've ever written anyway.

But she has such a way with words and a way to twist the knife. And so she's a, she's a firecracker for sure. Yeah. It just like, just, just, just kind of like blow through everything that you are. Sure. Right to the core. Right to the core. Yeah.

It's like, it's like I rue the day I ever had you kind of level of savagery. How do you, so, and that's, and that shame's built into you, right? That you feel that, right? It's a voice you've had to deal with in your head your entire life. That, that like any time that you want to do anything outside of the purview of their expectations you had to deal with that shame yes what i what i what i ultimately i think what was what was the prevailing thought for me during this time was who i was becoming was so important that i actually i that overrode any sort of intense feelings of shame or filial piety, any desire to like assume the family duty or keep the family face.

I mean, I actually think that if I had had a better relationship with my parents, it would have been harder. But we had fought so much over the course of my teenage years that there was really no relationship to salvage. And so I was like, you know what? Screw it. I don't care. To your point, Mark, it was like,

you don't have any power over me anymore. I said, I don't care anymore. And what is so important to me right now is the person that I'm becoming, is this creative, this hardworking person. I really felt like I was coming into my own and that feeling of when you're right where you need to be, it's like you come alive.

And I was coming alive. And that was more powerful. That was the most important thing. Oh, see, that's great. That's great because it doesn't always have to go that way. Yeah. Some people break, and whatever happens, happens. But that's amazing that you had, they definitely planted in you some sort of stick-to-edness.

Yeah, definitely. Because I imagine in the book you have to sort out these things that were once negative to you in terms of qualities that you have or that they taught you. They become positive if you sort of apply them to what you do. Apply them directly. To what you do, yeah. I think the fallacy in my parents parents logic was that they worked so hard to for their next generation to have all of the opportunities that they didn't and then they turn around in the and had the expectation that they would that the next generation would do the exact

same thing that they did right but um you know obviously that's interesting people don't work that way and then the other thing too that i only realized very recently was that the decision to leave china my parents were working at that time they had graduated um they'd graduated from school they were working in china they had careers was that it was actually the the ultimate like risk was to was to throw that all away and to immigrate to a new country where you didn't speak the language you didn't understand the culture and and you didn't know if you were going to get a job or not right you know you're basically they were they were like redoing their education in the hopes of landing something, but none of that was guaranteed.

And so people must have thought that they were crazy too. Sure. And so that was kind of, that made my journey feel so, you know, so small, but also I was like, oh, I literally, my parents did this. That was their immigrant dream. So literally, my parents did this. That was their immigrant dream. So this is my version of that dream. Sure. And I'm entitled to that dream just as much as they were.

Right. It's a, theirs was like really an immigrant dream. And yours is sort of a dream of, of self-actualization where, where, you know, you can do what you want to do and, and be successful at it. Because even if you were to do if you were to to become what they whatever they thought you should become for the family and the expectations is that you know there was something you said about like this just to do exactly what they did which is limited yeah right so now here you've become more than they could have ever expected. I mean, you're driving a free Beamer. You know, then my parents would love that. It's free. My parents will. I will. I will say, Dad, if you're listening, I did not have to pay for it.

A convertible. It's a convertible. It's great. But I mean, I imagine that that whatever. Was there a begrudging appreciation of your success initially? There was a begrudging appreciation of my work ethic. And I think that started before I booked the Marvel role, before I booked the sitcom Kim's Convenience. I was on a show called Blood and Water in Canada where I played a pedophile murderer. But that's a story for another time. But I also was a Chinese character, so but that's a story for another time. And, uh, and, but, but I also was a, it was a Chinese character. So I had to speak a lot of Mandarin and my Mandarin was not great. So I kind of roped my parents into, uh, into running lines with me and we were shooting in Vancouver. So I was in the, I was in the hotel room late at night,

running lines with my parents, running lines with my dad. And, and I think it was through that was through that process they finally started to see oh this dude takes it seriously like he's not you know i think their worry was that i was being fed a pipe dream of like oh i could just i could just sit there right i'm like you know i take a couple of nice head shots and then i'll just all of a sudden be discovered and i'll be in a they were like oh he he is recognizing how much work this actually takes and also ready to put in it oh that's in a they were like oh he he is recognizing how much work this actually takes and also ready to put in it oh that's interesting so they were able to appreciate the work it takes yes yes they were like you know and i think i think with familiarity too i think it breeds some sort of empathy they you know they just had no idea how the sure film industry or

show business like right neither did you who the hell knows neither did i but but i was starting to i was starting to make head um headway into the into the industry and so they were like he's really serious about he's really serious about pedophile murderer yeah like if yeah he's if this means so much to him that he gets this right maybe maybe there's no getting him back um but i do think that was the turning point that really set the stage for our reconciliation. Because if it was as easy as, oh, you're a Marvel person now. Yeah, you're fine. We're proud of you now.

I don't think I would have accepted that. I would hold a lot of resentment in my heart. That would have taken too long. For sure. For sure. And it wouldn't be unconditional love by any means. No, no. It would just be they had no choice, right?

Right, right. Oh, yeah, no, that's pretty cool. Yeah, I guess you did it. No, but so, okay, so you do the commercial, and then you come out as an actor. So, but how fraught was the relationship until what? What was the first thing you got? It wasn't Kim's Convenience.

It was this other series? Yeah, it was Blood and Water. That was the first thing you got wasn't kim's convenience it was this other series yeah it was it was blood and water that was the the first major one before then it was it was really like two years of uh you know it was like joe jobs it was like spider-man at kids birthday parties it was oh my god handing out dog food i dressed up i dressed up as spider-man how was that for you um you know some some days were better than others some days you'd have like a really angelic kid and you'd be like oh oh, that was really sweet. I also took it, by the way, to be like an exercise in performance as well because I had, you know,

I was in class, but I was like, yeah, you know, that's a crowd. That's a crowd that I could find in front of. Were you doing the moves? I was doing the moves. I was doing like the backflips and stuff and the gymnastics. Oh, you can do all that? When did you learn all that shit? Basically when I was breakdancing, when I was trying to be that cool kid in high school. So that's where all the physicality happened yeah yeah you kind of

self-taught gymnastics self-taught gymnastics like stage combat stunty you know stuff all through break dancing all through yeah break dancing like parkour i don't know if you're familiar with parkour but what is it it's um have you ever see people like running across rooftops of buildings oh yeah like i never really got there, but it was all about free movement. Right, right. And just jumping over things. Precision and jumping and flipping. You did all that?

And all of that, yeah. Were you doing it on TikTok? No, I missed the TikTok. I was too old. Oh, so none of that. And also, by the way, not as good as some of the people on tiktok now everyone's just incredible i see all kinds of people doing crazy shit totally crazy shit wild on rooftops jumping there's a lot of people that just hang off of balloons hot air balloons and dry right right

there's that there's people that go on rooftop you know you ever see the russian videos of people that go on rooftops and then they like go out to a beam and then we'll do like pull ups on the beam. People have like legitimately died doing that. Yeah. I assume I always wonder what the ending of some of these TikTok videos. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So so you you earned all that. And what. So you started doing that type of work before you got the series doing like sort of stunt stuff or. Yeah, I was I think I was just trying to do whatever i could so i was i had a stunt coordinator tommy chang who had who gave me a shot you know on a set for the first time i was uh i was trying to teach myself how to produce and edit and and you know write and do post so i was signing up for all these like little film intensives and collectives and also joining playwright you know um you know uh

theater companies and and joining playwright workshops yeah i was just doing everything i it was like a shotgun blast into the industry i was just like everything all the time so you're doing theater too huh yeah because because i didn't want to i didn't know where i would end up right really i would have loved you know i really do feel like i'm living the best version the best case scenario of that but i think equally as fulfilling if I didn't get this role or if the acting thing didn't take off, I would be, I would be something else, but I'd be in the industry. Sure. Oh, I see. So you just love the industry. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My friend used to ask me all the time, what's your plan B? And I was like, I don't have a plan B. I just have an A1, A2, A3, A4 and A5.

Oh, that's good. But there's no plan B. Yeah. There isn't a2 a3 a4 and a5 oh that's good but there's no plan b yeah that there isn't a plan b but i like that you were able to you know have an a spectrum an a spectrum exactly but what uh so what was it like in canadian television i mean canadian tv like i used to make sort of a half joke about how i think that if you hang around within the world of entertainment in Canada, that eventually you will get your own show. That you can make it happen easier than you can do it here. But what was casting like in terms of, given that the Asian community was so large, was there representation that was not limiting? Yeah, I would say hard no.

Hard no. There was not, the Asian representation did not exist. I think what was out in the world is very different than what was being put forth in media. And to some degree, I feel like that was the case in America too.

It was like, there were Asian Americans in America for, you know, we've been here for over 100 years, but you wouldn't know it watching, watching the films and consuming media or, or when you see the Asian characters, they would really be like the, really the same two people. They would be running a laundromat or a restaurant. They'd be heavily accented. Yeah. That's not the, I mean, that's not the people that I grew up around.

Those people were not represented at all. Right. And it's definitely the same in Canada. I would say it's a small market and a small system. And a lot of times, oftentimes, what those systems result in is the same people getting opportunities over and over again. And it was very much the same production companies, the same showrunners going from one show, that show getting canceled. Really, I don't want to say failing upwards, but definitely failing laterally and getting more opportunities and more opportunities.

And it can be really tough to break in in that kind of environment. But a little show called Kim's Convenience did come along and it was based on a play written by Ince Choi. And when it was a play at the Toronto Fringe Festival, it just blew away all expectations. A theater company had picked it up, had toured nationally. By the way, when Ince was first pitching the play to all the major theater companies around the country, all rejections. Because none of them were Asian.

None of the artistic directors were Asian. None of them could see what this play was right and it wasn't until the people saw it and built it up and blew it up that they finally started to believe in it yeah right so then the play was mounted around the country and then optioned into a tv show and uh and that's how that's how i got my my break i remember hearing about it like it was a big deal like in all show business it was a big deal. Like, in all show business, it was a big deal. Oh, man. Yeah. What year was that?

It was 2016 was the first year that we shot and came out. And in the first season, it was really just, I mean, we were on the CBC and nowhere else. So nobody outside of Canada could watch it, at least. But after that, in our second season, we got picked up by Netflix. And then all of a sudden, we were in, like overnight, we were in like 100 countries all over the world. And it wasn't like we were like Riverdale. It wasn't like we were Justin Bieber-level fame. But certainly, it blew us all up in a way that we could never have imagined. know the full spectrum of of asian culture feeling a lack of representation if there's any that is you know modern just yeah yeah and represents you know any you know diversification

within the community yeah they got to be like oh my god it's like a drop of water in a desert it's like oh my god thank you yeah thank goodness and that that was the feeling i i remember even watching kim's convenience for the first time on stage as a play. Yeah. How transformative of a feeling it was watching what was my life being played out. Not just seeing Asian people, but the story about the intergenerational conflict, about the father and the son who are struggling to reconcile, struggling to understand each other. Yeah. We're struggling to reconcile, struggling to understand each other.

Yeah. You know, the father with slightly accented English, but, you know, the son that was, you know, doing his best. I mean, it just, it broke me on such a visceral level. And I realized that up until that point, my relationship to theater was very much like going to a museum and being like, oh, this is nice. Yeah. Shakespeare. This is, you know. Right, right, right. Okay.

What a nice thing yeah yeah you know history history but i didn't realize that art could be participatory i didn't realize that art could speak to my lived experience and really it was because i had been starved starved of that kind of representation my whole life so that i think in that moment it clicked for me that's what i need but that's a different type of institutionalized, not necessarily racism, but kind of. Yeah. It's, you know, I mean, that word is thrown around so much, but it's definitely institutionalized. Institutionalized lack of opportunity or understanding.

Institutionalized ignorance. There you go. That's it. Maybe. It's just, you know, none of those decision makers ever had an Asian friend that grew up. It's wild. Because I feel like I'm seeing, that's one of the most amazing things that's happened over the last decade or two.

It's just that this surge of representation, it's exciting. It's exciting for me. I mean, I just did an episode of Reservation Dogs and it was so amazing to be on a set with Native Americans who have never had that kind of freedom of expression. And to sort of approach the modern version of what Native life is like, it was exciting. I was thrilled to not have anything to say and just do the role and be impressed as an old white guy that something amazing was happening culturally. I hear that. I hope that everybody is able to feel that in some way, shape, or form. And I know there's still minority populations or maybe marginalized groups out there that don't feel that way. there's still minority populations or maybe marginalized groups out there that don't feel that way. And certainly I'm not saying by any means that as Asian Americans, like we are where

we need to be either. There's definitely, we always want more. We always want more ownership over the stories that we tell, you know, and more accurate representation and better representation. But certainly, yeah, I think it's, well, you know, I think it's really easy to get cynical when representation and diversity just start to get like tossed around and thrown around. And right, right, right. Well, it's not a sense of what that actually means. Well, that's true. I could see that and that it's not quite it. We're not done. Yeah. And that, you know, that there's still a way that there needs to be some sort of balance of representation that that honors the world that we live in but i still think there's been a tremendous success in in sort of uh of kind of uh integrating and and

making uh fiction more diverse so if somehow it can actually have an impact in the real world to to sort of create connections yes among people we'll see you know i i don't know i think um i mean i think i have to believe this being an actor yeah but i i really i think the power of stories fictional or non-fictional it i mean it has the power to to just transcend boundaries and cultures and language and it has the power to inspire people and and to show people what's possible and i mean the amount of parents that I've met who have said that

they're you know Shang-Chi has like affected them and their children in such a profound way oh yeah I bet well that I mean

that was the first Marvel movie I've watched in like a decade by the way I watched it for you and not because I'm just not

the guy that watches them but that movie was a special movie not just because of representation but it's fundamentally a kung fu movie, really. Right? I mean, in the way that it is of a type. It's more of that.

It's more of an Asian experience than it is a Marvel movie. Like, it seems to me that all the symbols and the story and everything about, you know, the combat and also, you know, where it takes place. I mean, those things have been existing in Asian film and Asian culture for, in film for as long as there's been Asian film and Asian culture for thousands of years. Everything in there is completely familiar to any generation of Chinese person, I would imagine. Yeah.

I hear that. I would say the film is definitely a celebration, the celebration of our culture and our lives. I might disagree that it's a Kung Fu movie. Is that wrong? Is that inappropriate? No, no, it's not inappropriate. I think about this a lot. I'm like, is it a martial arts film?

Did I do a Kung Fu movie or did I do a martial arts movie or did I do a coming of age or did I do a coming of age story with, with homages to martial arts and, and, and Kung Fu. And I think that's, that's what I thought going in because, you know, I, I genuinely believe that if it was a Kung Fu movie, I wouldn't be cast. I'm not, if Kung Fu is like the be all and end all of like what you wanted Shang-Chi to be, I'm not your guy. No, right. No, of course. Of course. No, I understand that. But I mean, structurally.

Yes. The Marvel story, you know, whatever the, from my understanding of it, is like, you know, how, if this is your origin story. Right. Right. You know, everything around it, you know, even like, you know, for whatever reason, it's, you know, the rings, you know, is a fairly, somehow or another, even that rings as specifically Asian to me. Oh, interesting. The number of rings, you know, the 10 rings. Like, I don't know what that is or where that came from. I get Thor's hammer and I get like, and I get some other stuff or whatever the spider bite business.

But there just seems to be some sort of ancient history to rings that seems, what do I know? I don't know. I was hoping you'd bring them though. Yeah, yeah. No, I would have loved to take them from set. But, you know, they're pretty tight about that sort of thing. Sure. You know, I really did.

I think I went into it thinking about what I wanted the movie to be. And I think I wanted it to be a superhero movie. And I think Destin wanted it to be a superhero movie with a very specific cultural perspective in mind. But I think and I hope that there are universal themes that play beyond just like, oh, this feels Asian, which it does. Of course. Totally does. But also, but, you know, it is exactly the same story as Kim's convenience. And it's similar.

And it's definitely similarity. And it's exactly your story. Yeah. Yeah. Down to even like, you know, I know we talk a lot about the traditional Chinese, you know, iconography and aesthetic, but there's also like the very real aesthetic of like two asian-american you know uh 20-somethings growing up in san francisco and you want to karaoke together and like parking out and parking cars and i think that's that's so much of of my life

is is in that and my character isn't yeah so we were able to i think encompass a a very broad kind of sense of and really it's the only, it's the type of like specificity and nuance that you get when you have a filmmaker like Destin who is Asian American, who understands. And it's also, this is very important, also a phenomenal filmmaker. Yeah. Is that he was able to imbue the film

with all of this nuance and these different character perspectives that you're like, oh yes yes, this does feel Asian. But it also feels specific. It feels like these characters each have their own, you know, their sense of identity and motivation and where they come from. Oh, absolutely. Very specific. And I just love that, like, you know, you're just a regular kid.

Yeah. But you have this eternal father who you don't get along with. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then he just comes back into the picture with his expectations. With his expectations, yeah. Not great, but, you know, you're going to make him better. Yeah. The expectations, you know, use the power in a different way.

And I was talking to my producer today about how this huge chunk of story is almost dropped in passing, you know, which is that, you know, this forest, you know, kind of eats people. dropped in passing, you know, which is that, you know, this forest, you know, kind of eats people. And there's this gate to a mountain, and behind that is this giant dragon that's going to eat souls and take it. And it happens in three lines. It does. It does. It feels MacGuffin-y sometimes.

No, but I don't know it's not, though, because, like, you know, I've never been a comic book nerd, but I think there are people that either get comics or they don't. There are people that can read them and effectively have the experience of the stories being told from those panels and process it immediately, or they don't. And I think that one of the things, at least in this Marvel movie, that it honors that. That you can drop that kind of information if you have a brain for that kind of stuff. You're like, no problem. I get it. That's the mountain. There's the wall.

That's the mountain. Yeah, yeah, yeah. kind of stuff you're like no problem i get it that's the mountain there's the wall yeah yeah yeah it was that it was and and also like the other thing i loved and i don't know if it's uh if i'm being uh uh you know racially insensitive but i the the good dragon was a specifically chinese dragon oh interesting like like the way it was it looked yeah yeah yeah that like you know and i said and i again it's like i recognize that dragon from soup bowls you know in chinese restaurants i love that dragons have ethnicity but i think they totally did because they're yeah there's there's not it's funny that they're all dry why do we call them so why do we why do we call them dragons when they're so

different like the game of thrones dragon but different medieval dragon but even the one in the in the in the in the mountain in the mountain is not it didn't strike me as an asian dragon right right it just was just a general menacing horrible dragon and the little soul eating things like i like that all that stuff but it seemed like the good dragon was like i recognize that from from chinese festival festivals yeah is that possible there's oh absolutely well Well, there's a lot of the creatures in Ta Lo in that world were based off of Chinese mythology. The Qilin, the firebirds, the nine-tailed fox, and the dragon, and even Morris, that little headless kind of chicken butt looking thing, is based on a, I'm blanking on the name right now, but is based on a very wise Chinese mythological creature. Oh, wow. So that's totally honored it like i imagine all generations of chinese people were like holy shit and and well well frankly i did not know any of this going in yeah i wasn't like oh yeah that's

the qilin um but now but now i do thanks to a really really incredible uh vfx artists that that i see that attention to detail being specifically culturally identified. It's kind of amazing. So the feedback has been like you're an actual superhero, I would imagine, to Asian kids. Oh, man. I don't know how that makes me feel. I mean, yes, I think the feedback has been really incredible.

back has been has been really incredible i think um you know i i think and i believe that that superheroes have a very special you know a very special part of they take up a very special space yeah in this world and and i think you know i think the kids growing up today will grow up differently because they have a superhero that represents them. Because I know growing up, when I turned on the TV, I never felt good about myself. I never felt like I exist. I always felt kind of invisible, and I always felt very limited in what I believed was possible for myself, right?

A lot of my narrow kind of viewpoint of success was based off of my parents because I didn't have anything else to model after. Sure. Maybe if I had seen more, first of all, more working Asian Canadian and Asian American actors, that would have changed things. If I had seen stories featuring Asian protagonists in America or in Canada, that would have changed things.

If I saw a superhero that looked like me, that would have changed things. Sure. I mean, same with the Black Panther as well. It seemed to have a similar effect. And what happens when you make the next movie with this guy? Well, I think we're trying to figure out what exactly that next movie is going to be. And you know how it is. I be very careful about what I say.

Sure. But I think there's, you know, I think obviously he's got a future. I think it's obviously a shared cinematic universe. Right. And are there Shang-Chi right um and are there things are there chengchi comics there there are there are he's an established guy he's an established guy he's been around for a while he was made in the in the 1970s okay in the height of the uh you know kung fu craze and he those early comics were i wouldn't say they're problematic i would say

they're not great right from a representational standpoint because they were not written by asian people and so didn't you know in doing research for the role i obviously went through some comics and i was like huh i don't know if i like this and i you know i went to talk to destin and he's like yeah no no we're doing something totally different and you got to work with all these great like michelle yo is that michelle yo it's amazing yeah and those they amazing. Yeah. And they've been around forever. They've been around forever and are legends in Asian cinema. Michelle, I think, has crossed over into Hollywood and is now having a full-blown moment of her own. Yeah. With Everything Everywhere All at Once.

Oh, yes. And I'm just such a big fan. I could not tell you how happy I am that she's getting her comeuppance and getting all of these accolades that she's deserved for so long. And Tony, of course, that was his first kind of foray into Hollywood, but he was an arthouse cinema icon.

You watched him growing up. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Infernal Affairs, Chunking Express. Yeah. Great. You get that amazing opportunity to work with these people very intimidating very intimidating especially because going up against their resumes i was that i felt like i was at a literal zero um but i think you played i think you must have felt you were playing a version of yourself in a lot of those very much so very much so yeah

and that the emotions of it were genuine yes yeah yes and what what is this uh this barbie movie what is it man it's uh it's it's it's wild i mean have you seen it i have not seen it we just wrapped on it okay um greta gerwig but it's greta gerwig and noah bombach. Yeah. And then, of course, Greta Gerwig. They wrote it? They wrote it. And she's directing it. And she's directing it.

I can't even understand what it is. Yeah, I don't even want to give too much away. I'll wait. Because the buzz that's out right now is good. I mean, the fact that they went on the Venice boardwalk with those outfits and the roller blade stuff. Yeah, with Gosling and Margot Robbie. I just love that.

Yeah. Yeah. And I don't know how much I want to say. I don't know how much I'm allowed to say. But I will say it was one of the best scripts I've ever read. And a good experience? Yeah, and a phenomenal experience working for, yeah, again, just like a transcendent director. Yeah.

Such a strong vision and so smart and intelligent and subversive. Yeah. Such a strong vision and so smart and intelligent and subversive. And I think it'll surprise a lot of people because I think a lot of people get cynical when they see like Mattel. Yeah. Or they see Barbie. But truly, truly, without giving anything away, the first thought that I had after reading the script and finishing it was like, how the hell did they get Mattel to sign off on this? Right. Because this is not the kind of movie that like corporate overlords sign off on.

Right. This is the type of movie that I love unabashedly and that it's smart and it's subversive and it's meta and it makes fun of itself. But like, how did they understand it enough to greenlight it? And I think that's props to not only Greta, but also to Margot it and and you know i think that's props to to not only greta but also to to you know margot robbie and tom ackerley who who you know produced who produced it and shepherded it you know every step of the way that they're able to really fight for that

original vision yeah i'm excited story is um i'm excited but it's it's it's special and i think it'll be special and in and in closing how did, how did your parents react to the book? Well, they were very involved from a very early stage. I knew the story that I wanted to tell, and I knew that I couldn't tell it without them. So I was very upfront. I was like, I want to tell the story of you. I want to tell the story of me. And I want to tell the story of us.

And I was very clear. I was like, I'm not out there to air out dirty laundry, to be vindictive, to say, Hey, see, this is how you treated me. How dare you? Yeah. It was like, let's, but let's, let's not shy away because our culture is so much about saving face and presenting well. Right. I'm like, let's not do that. Let's present an honest snapshot of what our lives were and where our conflict came from so that families can read this and, and see themselves in it and choose a better path and choose empathy and choose to have those conversations that we were never able to have. Um, and I think they, you know,

I think they, they first at first were, were very on board. And then I, they read my first draft and they were like, oh, God. And so they had a moment of like, what have we done? But then at the very end, you know, once we got it to the publisher and it was out of their hands, they were like, no, this is really, they had some sense of like, taken accountability for, and have expressed a genuine remorse over things that were said, things that they had done. At that point, I think I was so ready to move on and move past, and I'm very, very happy with where we are today. That's a great story.

Thank you. Thanks for talking, man. Thank you. Thanks for having me. That's a great story. Thank you. Thanks for talking, man. Thank you. Thanks for having me.

There you go. That was a full arc of a life there. It was a nice talk. The book is We Were Dreamers, and you can get that wherever you get books. It's out now, and you can go watch the Marvel movies. But, you know, they're not struggling. You don't have to rush out. It's going to be okay if you wait on that. And please wait to look. Just hang out a minute.

Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers

interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Center in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of

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So if you have a WTF plus subscription, you can listen to all those episodes before the new one with Whitney on Thursday. I'm coming your way, people. Tucson, Arizona at the Rialto Theater on September 16th. Phoenix, Arizona at Stand Up Live on September 17th, Boulder, Colorado at the Boulder Theatre on September 22nd, Fort Collins, Colorado at the Lincoln Center on September 23rd, and Toronto, Ontario at the Queen Elizabeth Theatre on September 30th and October 1st. I'll be in London, England at the Bloomsbury Theatre Saturday and Sunday, October 22nd and 23rd.

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Now I'm going to do some Raga blues. Thank you. guitar solo Thank you.