WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1372 - Jann Wenner

Episode Date: October 6, 2022

Jann Wenner’s life as the co-founder and publisher of Rolling Stone Magazine has been chronicled in other books, but Jann says he needed to write a memoir to declare what his generation actually stood for. Jann and Marc talk about the importance of San Francisco as the birthplace of not only the magazine but of ’60s culture in general. Jann explains why the Altamont Free Concert was a turning point for Rolling Stone, what happened in the cocaine-fueled days when the magazine moved to New York, and how close Almost Famous was to reality.Click here to Ask Marc Anything and Marc might answer your question in WTF+ bonus content. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life when i die here you'll never leave japan alive fx's shogun a new original series streaming february 27th exclusively on disney plus 18 plus subscription required t's and c's apply all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck

nicks how's it going i'm mark maron this is my podcast jan wenner is on the show today he is the co-founder of rolling Stone magazine. He was known for conducting the Rolling Stone interview in the magazine, and he gave dozens of talented writers their big breaks. He also co-founded the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. He's got a memoir out called Like a Rolling Stone. I got a copy of that, and I was given the opportunity to talk to him, got a copy of that and i was given the opportunity to talk to him not knowing how i felt about him exactly but knowing that he was he's like he he's like the the prototype baby boomer guy who went through the full arc of boomerness you know starting with the the publication of what was essentially a music magazine but was sort of riding the crest

of the subculture all the way into cocaine fueled insanity and into corporate selling of uh of rolling stone it just the full arc coming out late in life having two lives and essentially two bit different he's just he's a consummate boomer. However you want to take that. And he knows it, but you know, it's also Rolling Stone magazine. How many of your heroes wrote for Rolling Stone magazine? How many of your heroes were profiled in Rolling Stone magazine?

How important was Rolling Stone magazine to you as a kid? I mean, I'm 59. How important? Pretty fucking important, right? I'll say. So a couple things. Tonight I'll be in Livermore, California at the Bankhead Theater.

And tomorrow, Friday, I'm in Carmel-by-the-Sea, California at the Sunset Center. You hear me? It's going to be a few of us. Whatever, man. Just knocking it out. Just doing the work work i'm just a road dog road dog but i would like to talk about the movie i'm in that's coming out on friday to leslie a lot of you remember me talking about this i shot this during covid i was kind of uh uptight about you know having to do an accent and taking a risk, but I did it. It took a lot of cajoling by the director, but I did it, and I locked in. It's a heavy time, man.

We shot this thing on film. He shot it in like three weeks on film, and it was a very funny experience. I think I told you about it, about trying to figure out if I'm going to do an accent, meeting with the dialect coach, because it was a Texan accent, and there are several, if any. Some Texans don't have accents at all. The dialect coach went with Lubbock, gave me a bunch of videos to watch, and they were all of Mac Davis talking. to watch and they were all of Mac Davis talking. Mac Davis, the singer-songwriter and actor, who I think has since passed, was the best example of Lubbock, I guess.

And I studied Mac Davis. I studied Mac Davis deeply and made a key for myself that she sent me on the paper of enunciation, pronunciation. But the movie, To Leslie, which is a raw, gut-wrenching movie with Andrea Riceboro, I play opposite Andrea Riceboro, who is just a fucking acting wizard, a genius actress. So the movie is opening in theaters tomorrow. It's also available to rent on digital on-demand platforms. And it's getting some good feedback. I was told that Howard Stern said some nice things about me. He and his wife enjoyed To Leslie, raved about the movie and about me and about Andrea. Stephen Root's in the movie. Allison Janney's in the movie. Andre Royo's in the movie.

And I don't know, man. It's exciting. It's exciting because people are digging it. And that's what you want them to do. And listen, if you have any questions for me about the movie or anything else, actually, you can contribute to our next Ask Mark Anything episode for full Marin subscribers. There's a link to submit a question in the episode description. Just go to the episode notes on whatever app you're using and click on the link for Ask Mark Anything. Send me a question

and I'll answer it. I guess I just talked to you guys on Monday and I'm just trying to deal had a rotor guy rotor rooter guy or do you still call him that guy snaked my drain and hasn't been done in a few years it needed to be done and there's just that moment where I come up and I'm like how's it going he's like well I think I think everything I got out is here do you want to look at it do I want to look at what I've lost do I want to look at it? Do I want to look at what I've lost? Do I want to look at something the length of an arm composed of my hair? I don't know. Do I? I know I'm losing my hair a bit, but I didn't know that much. That's like an entire being.

But yeah, exciting. It is exciting. It's exciting to get your drain snaked, isn't it? Yes. Yes, it is. Oh, my God. Shout out to my father and his wife, Rosie. How are you, Barry? How are you, Dad? How are you, old man? What's happening with you? You know, after he heard me talk to him on the last show i talked to him uh the other day on the phone and he was just uh so impressed with my word usage i mean he's beside himself he's like i don't know how you talk like that i'm like i've been doing this a long time and i think about things he's like i just don't get it i could never do that it's one of those beautiful

moments where in this sort of mild haze of of mental issues and, you know, and him sort of being a little more open somehow in a way that, you know, it's nice when he can determine that I'm a separate person from him that does different things, not just some kind of strange psychic appendage or actual limb. or actual limb. It's nice when he realizes in his self-absorbed way that like, oh my God, you're an entirely different being than me. Yes, dad, I am my own man. I am my own man, dad, with my own lexicon, with my own vocabulary, with my own thoughts. I am that guy, different than you. I hope you're having a good day. So Jan Wenner is here, was here. We hashed it out. We talked a bit. It was good. His memoir, Like a Rolling Stone, is available now wherever you get books. And this is me talking to Jan Wenner, who I didn't know was Jewish. Are you self-employed? Don't think you need business insurance?

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T's and C's apply. How are you, man? Good, Mark. Good to see you. You know, I got the book. I got two signed copies of the book. They usually send galleries. I didn't get those. But I got two signed copies of the book. They usually send galleries. I didn't get those.

But I got two signed copies like two days ago. And I'm going through it. But obviously, I grew up with the magazine. I grew up knowing who you are. And I kind of went through the book. And there's a lot of stories in there. But what I was curious about right out of the gate, since the rolling stone interview was such a thing like what what determines whether a rolling stone interview is a good interview what what were your standards for that well i think this interview was based in the first place on

the playboy interview right at the time was this long definitive in-depth personal profile a serious very serious kind of interview as opposed to every other kind of profile. And then also there was something called the Paris Review Interviews with writers in which they talked to them about their craft and how they wrote. They write in the morning,

in the afternoon, all this kind of stuff. Professional trade talk, really. And I just thought a combination of the two with these people who are really legitimate musicians. Yeah. You know, like, I mean, take Jerry Garcia

or anybody. Legitimate musicians, so what they've listened to, who influenced them, who shaped their music. And then, who are you as a person and as a thinker

that makes you write this stuff and take this attitude and approach? So it was meant to be a deep dive into... Into the craft. Into the craft in somebody's head. Yeah. And you'd want to...

We would restrict it really to people who I thought were thoughtful enough to deserve that lengthy examination. And not everybody did, obviously. Right. Yeah. I mean, surprisingly, depending on... Most people are people and they have stories to tell. But in terms of if it's craft specific, you kind of want to have somebody that's got some depth to them.

But that guy, I knew one of the guys. I interviewed one of the guys who used to do the Playboy interviews. I mean, he used to go out. He'd spend weeks with these people. Weeks. Did you guys do that at the beginning? No. No.

I thought that's kind of unnecessary indulgence. Right? Because I knew people who did that. Yeah. And I didn't think the results were any better, you know, necessarily. And I don't know what they were doing other than- Hanging out, man. They were hanging out.

Listen, I did a Garcia interview. It was huge and lengthy. And we spent the afternoon smoking pot on his front lawn. What, back in the 70s, right? Yeah. And yeah, I don't smoke pot anymore. Who does? Do you? Everybody. What smoke pot anymore. Who does?

Everybody. What are you kidding? Who does? It's legal, dude. Where have you been? It's California. It's legal in most places. We won.

Yeah, people just smoke and weed like it's a goddamn breakfast. I can't anymore. But in any case- Why can't you smoke pot anymore? It seems to be the one thing that you could- It's too rough on my lungs. Oh, and you were a smoker, right? I was for years. And then I cough and it's just unpleasant.

Oh, oh. What happened to your leg? I fell down on a tennis court and I broke my femur. Oh, my God. Yeah, so that's a bitch. Yeah, it's getting old sex, right? Yeah. But anyway, the interview, I mean, I think the trick of it was not that you had to spend days,

but you had to assign an interviewer that could connect really well. Right. And not only understood the subject, but loved the subject. Right. And I don't know, I think people were eager to do the Rolling Stone interview. Yeah. Because it's such a wonderful forum for somebody who's never, a musician who's you know, rarely given that length or taking sure seriously Yeah, and and and I think at that time at the beginning, you know, the the subculture was becoming the culture

So, you know a type of music was evolving That was exciting and new and I mean it seems that Well you I the guy that was, you started the magazine with. Ralph Gleason. Right. Now, he was a jazz guy, right? He was a jazz critic. Very prominent, well-known.

Now, how old were you when you met that guy? Well, I was in college when I met him. And when we started rolling, so I was 20. And Ralph was 48. Now, but was jazz your thing or like? No, jazz wasn't my thing. And Ralph kept trying to educate me and used to take me to all these jazz concerts

and see people play. When you were a kid? When I was a kid in college. I kept thinking Jerry Garcia was the end of the earth. You know, that's where guitar started. And he's, oh no. And he would take me around. But he, at the time,

jazz critics were very snobby towards rock and roll didn't like it it was discredited right but ralph saw the art in it sure and the beatles and the singers as long as oh he dug it simon yeah and the words and what it was saying its purpose is an art form also kind of political social art form but the jazz establishment mocked him and so they he was 48 years old so they would say well ralph gleeson's a 40-year-old man who can't decide whether he's three 16-year-olds or four 12-year-olds.

He loved that. But he had that spirit of youth. And what did you learn from him? Just a lot. Mainly about ethics and integrity in journalism and the fact that you really should know your stuff going into it. I mean, there was no excuse for inaccuracy, sloppy stuff.

Is that the only experience you had in dealing with a journalist? No, no, no. I had been, well, with a professional journalist, the year before, worked for Ramparts. Oh, yeah. Which Ralph got me that job. And they weren't exactly professional journalists. But did that define your politics? No, not all my politics were opposite the Ramparts politics.

The Ramparts politics were like stridently new left, Black Panther. That was too left for you? Not that it was too left. It's not that I disagreed with any of the policies or the ideas of it. But the approach was one, and I'm not saying this on specifically on any particular group like

the Panthers, but generically the approach of this kind of new left thing was harsh and punitive and sometimes violent as it evolved into violence. They had this little brittle understanding of how they get young people involved in politics. And my point of view and Ralph's point of view is that rock and roll had its kind of innate politics of consciousness and a sense of human justice. And what we should be talking about here is a revolution that comes from culture. Right.

And which happened in the end. I mean, sure. But that would be the approach of young people. You can't go in the ambulance and say, well, you know, sit down. You know, I don't know, all kinds of different things. But the message of the Beatles and Stones was there's a different kind of thing,

and it kind of coincided with the use of LSD and that kind of consciousness. And so we were very evangelistic about bringing this message a message of kind of non-violence was a message of Joan Baez for example right but you weren't you weren't involved with the protests at all or at Berkeley yeah oh I was very involved in it yeah and but that's different that's not kind of what I'm the new left came after that yeah you know. And it was just strident. It was the Jerry Rubin, Abbie Hoffman thing, a bunch of people after that. And our thing was really also very middle class in a way.

Is that how you grew up? Middle class, yeah. But steeped in liberal democratic politics. Where'd you grow up? Marin County. So both your folks, were you relocated there? Where were you from originally? New York City is where they are from, and that's where I was born.

Yeah. What kind of business were your parents in? My dad and mother started after the war. Yeah. They were each in the Army and the Navy. Yeah. Got married, had me. Then they moved to the West Coast.

They drove out to San Francisco. Oh, yeah. Like a typical post-war couple taking advantage of all the post-war boom. And it had me. And so I was the leading edge of the baby boom. But they started a company in San Francisco that made baby formulas and supplied custom-made baby formulas to hospitals all around the Bay Area. And up until that time, hospitals all had their own formula rooms. And my dad convinced the hospitals that we would make their formula,

he would make their formulas for them, and they could convert that room to a bed. And then they had this big plant in San Francisco. They did nothing but churn out baby formulas and customize it around the clock, which were delivered by trucks with storks on the side to hospitals. Isn't that crazy? That's crazy. I mean, when I hear about that generation, when they find these niches, which were delivered by trucks with storks on the side and to hospitals. Isn't that crazy? Yes. That's crazy. I mean, like, you know, when I hear about that generation, you know, when they find these niches,

like, where the hell does the inspiration come for something like that? I don't know. I mean, it wasn't for me. I think I was, or maybe I was the last, I don't know. But it was just a classic kind of story of post-war folks coming out to California, having three kids, finding their dream. Everyone's still around? Yeah, they're all around. And I thought that was, in a way, kind of a model story for my Jewish generation, yes.

And Marin County, you know, the classic kind of suburban area. Sure, but not a lot of Jews. Not a lot of San Francisco Jews. No. We were, you know, the minority for sure in our neighborhood. Yeah. And you were aware of that. Yeah. You knew you were a little different.

Yeah. And not that there was any active anti-Semitism, but. Were they New York Jews? Yes, but not practicing Jews. Sure, sure. But it's interesting because there is like a history of like sort of Bay Area Jews that go way back to the 1800s and they were mostly, I think, German Jews

which are different than sort of the sort of Ashkenazi kind of New York trip, you know. And I think an aristocracy Jew. That was what they were in San Francisco. I mean, there was very important families, Zellerbachs and so forth. Levi Strauss, wasn't it? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So there was never, I don't think there was very important families, the Zellerbachs and so forth. Levi Strauss, wasn't it?

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So there was never, I don't think there was any sense of ostracism there. And I think also that the temples there were pretty elegant and the community was pretty standard, pretty integrated into the city. So I don't think they had it in a way that other places,

but Timps has always been this very liberal place. Oh, yeah. It's crazy. I lived there for a couple of years. I never had any idea what the fuck was going on there. Where do you live? I lived on like South Van Ness in 22nd, like in the early 90s in the Mission. Then I moved to the Panhandle for a year at Clayton and fell for a little while.

But I always felt like it was kind of floating then. I always felt like whatever made that city exciting is exactly made it kind of trippy. I mean, it was really, I never understood the power structure or the grid or anything, but there was a vibe in San Francisco, which I imagine you sort of capitalized on.

Very much so. I mean, freedom, it was like you come here to be a freak. Not even a freak, you could do that. But there, freedom, it was like you come here to be a freak. Not even a freak. You could do that. But there's freedom there. Right. And there's a history of freedom in San Francisco going back to the Gold Rush. Yeah.

It was called the Barbary Coast. Yeah. And in modern times, in the 50s, it was the home of the beatniks. Right. And it was a very, in all kinds of ways, it was a very liberal city. Sure. And it's a city that could give birth to the rock and roll scene there. It's a city that was tolerant to all kinds of people.

And so you could go there and be kind of who you wanted to be. And, uh, and, you know, had a huge scenes there. And then when you put that together with Berkeley on one side and Stanford campus on the other side,

it was just a breeding ground for rock and roll students and drugs and all that stuff. And it was wonderful. It was a moment in history. And it was a laissez-faire attitude towards life. And it was a wonderful place to be. So you started the magazine in 67? Yeah. That's crazy early.

Yeah. I mean, that's like right at the peak of it. Well, that's- Or the beginning of it. The beginning of it. 67, they called that the summer of love. Right. And I guess it just took off in that time.

So who was around? Like Moby Grape, Quicksilver, The Dead. The basic original groups were Quicksilver, Messenger Service, The Dead. Steve Miller. No, that came a little bit later. A little bit later. And Moby Grape came later than that. But Janice.

Yeah. Who else was around there? Those are the basic groups. Then Steve Miller moved to town. He wasn't really. The Cretans Clearwater and John Ford were separate kind of across the bay. Well, they were Stockton guys, right? Or somewhere?

Oakland. Berkeley, Oakland. And Moby Grape came along during that 68 period. That's a hell of a record, that first Moby. I think it's the only Moby Grape record. Yeah, that was a good one. Right? Yeah, I like that. So you and Ralph put

the magazine together. What was the first issue? Was that the John Lennon cover? It had John Lennon on the cover. And was that the first interview with him? No,'t have an interview we were just starting from scratch we know nobody i did not i wouldn't know yeah yeah how to find john yeah yeah yeah uh and um but we were printing those scraps and pieces and things and yeah there was you know some of the local movie studios and local record company distributors had stills of their artists still from how how i won the war because that movie was coming out that's right yeah from at that time united artists so

it's promotional stuff it was music cheese yeah so but we chose that one it was what a wonderful fortuitous choice yeah john lennon arguably the premier star of the rock era something like that in a movie yeah and about politics right And it became our three specialties. Oh, he had the helmet on, right? Yeah. When does it start to pick up momentum immediately? I mean, when do you start? You know, I went and interviewed Ben Fong Torres, you know?

Really? Years ago, when I started the podcast. It was about midway through. I went to his house. But he just was very defensive and unwilling to talk about anything in a way. Really? Yeah, he was sort of like, I'm not going to tell you that story. I'm not going to tell you that story.

All he wanted to talk about was Little Feet. And I'm like, all right, dude. Well, that man is now the senior statesman of San Francisco Rock Riders. I guess so. I guess. But he certainly wasn't willing. I don't think he knew what the podcast was. But he thought I was there to blindside him somehow.

I'm like, look, man. What year was that? It's got to be five or six. Maybe it was probably 1912, 2012, 2013. Yeah, I don't know. Long after we left there and all the controversy. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, man.

I've only been doing this since 2009. Ben's kind of very taciturn individual. I think he had just written the big book on Little Feet. So it was probably on that junket. But he was just sort of like, I don't want to talk about that stuff. I think he had just written the big book on Little Feet. So it was probably on that junket. But he was just sort of like, I don't want to talk about that stuff. I'm not going to talk. I got some great Janus stories.

I'm not going to talk to you about that, though. I'm like, all right, well, fuck it. You're not going to talk about anything. So now this book that you wrote, I mean, how much of it was a reaction to that Hagen biography? None of it. It wasn't a fuck you?

Not at all. Not at all. I mean, I didn't skipping what I felt about that book. I had always felt that, and the reason I commissioned, or let this other one start, try. I always thought that the story of

Rolling Stone, and myself as a person, as a post-war baby, and then set in the context of times, if you saw through the eyes of Rolling Stone, what Rolling Stone's purview was, how wide it was. Right. You could really tell an authentic, true story of this era, of this generation. Right.

And I'd read so many that weren't any good. But this, I think, captures. But I wanted to write a book that showed who we were and what we stood for and the importance of it and the importance of rock and roll and the contributions it has made to American society and to the world, which I think have been substantial. They have been ridiculed a lot by the adult press. They continue to be today.

You know, OK Boomer and stuff like that. And it's not true. What's not true? The rock and roll generation came for and stood for and advocated for in Rolling Stone and in Sprozzer. Right. All kinds of equal rights. Yeah. All the student kids who went to the South in the 60s.

Yeah. And the Freedom Rides were from Berkeley and from white campuses. Right. But that women's rights, gay rights, black rights, the whole movement towards human justice, the getting rid of the drug war. Right. This entire move towards a humanistic. You thought happened through rock and roll. Through rock and roll. Was one of the great advocates of it in our time.

It was a great middle class popular advocate of these ideas about life. Now, do you have any sense, like, when, like, because there was a period there where there was idealism in the late 60s, and then, you know, somewhere in the early to mid-70s, you know, things got a little dark, didn't they? Yeah, well, you had, behind this, all the backdrop was war in Vietnam,

which said violence in the abroad, violence at home, assassinations, riots, demonstrations. It was dark, you know. And the drugs got out of control, right? They shifted in the hate, like in San Francisco, once speed hit, didn't it get kind of crazy? That's a separate issue. I mean, yeah. Yeah.

You know, I mean, yeah, I did get there. You weren't. But it was kind of a separate issue. I mean, yeah. Yeah, you know, I mean, yeah, I did get there. You weren't. But it was kind of a sideshow. It wasn't like a wide social phenomenon, the use of speed, you know. I mean, skip ahead 20 years, cocaine became pretty out of control. Well, that's different.

That was a different class. But I mean, were you around? That's still speed. Yeah, sure. But I mean, but the nature of it. I think that, you know, like, were you around for Altamont? You were there for Altamont. Did you have a part of that?

No. No? I mean, I wasn't there for it. I didn't go to it. No, but didn't it happen when you were doing the magazine? It happened when we were there. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

And part of our rise to fame was our coverage of Altamont. Yeah? Which got us National Magazine Award and a lot of attention of taking a very hard-ass view of it. But I don't think it was- Hard-ass view how? It wasn't as had been promoted. It wasn't Woodstock West. No, it wasn't.

I woke up on Monday. The San Francisco Examiner had coverage of it, and they were calling it Woodstock West. Before it happened or the day after? Before and after. That was the theory. We had 20 people there and i got an office on monday because i didn't go and people are calling it was horrible as no bathrooms people were out of control again so they got murdered murder some got really got murdered and it was

just a total bad vibe situation so i just read joel silver's book on that apparently that's a really good i thought it was great book yeah did he ever write for you that guy not really good book. I thought it was a great book. Yeah. Did he ever write for you, that guy? Not really, no. Maybe occasionally, but. Yeah. So was that a turning point for the magazine? That coverage? In a great sense, yes. Because, I mean,

we had to stand up and despite my friendships with Mick and the Rolling Stones, really kind of tell the truth about what we thought had happened and lay the blame at the feet of various parties who were involved,

irrespective of what anybody's personal feelings might be heard or Mick might get upset. Were you and Mick friends then? We were friends then, and we had been in business together putting out Rolling Stone in England. Oh, he was your partner in that, yeah. Yeah. So it was a tough call in a way, but not for me, really. I just knew what we had to do, and I knew that if we did it right,

my friendship with Mick would go on pause but would resume. Yeah. And that our integrity was our, in honesty, as perceived by the readers. Yeah. By ourselves and by the artists we covered to be absolutely critical to the success

and importance of Rolling Stone to everybody, to the meaning of it. So we had to stick with that. That was a big moment then. Yeah, it was a big moment. Because, you know, you couldn't, to be that honest, I mean, especially since half the fucking world was there from the town and, you know, your readership was there,

that, you know, everybody who had the experience, that was horrendous. If you were going to gloss over it in deference to Mick, you'd be done. Yeah Mick, it'd be done. Yeah, it couldn't be done. So the journalist integrity of the thing, do you think that was the first time you guys really kind of got into sort of real journalism? I think we had been in it before. And this is after our second half year.

We had been doing it before, but never as powerfully and as thoroughly as that. We had done some really good journalistic things, but this, multiple people involved, a big take, long piece. It was in our backyard. We had everybody there. It was every opportunity to do something special. And it won, for us, our little publication, the National Magazine Award that year. We were in competition with Vogue and The Atlantic. Yeah, yeah.

All these big magazines. What was your numbers then? What was your publication? What do you call it? I think Circulation. Circulation, yeah. Under 100,000 maybe by that time. Right, right, right.

We were small. When do you start to realize that you have power? Well, I think as we started to cover the 1972 presidential election we put hunter yeah was that the first time you used him no hunter started writing for the magazine in 1970 when he ran for sheriff in aspen colorado he's gonna make the road dirt again campaign slogan he was gonna sod the streets of Aspen, yeah. And put up stocks for bad drug dealers, remember? Yeah.

Rename the place Fat City, so that the real estate dealers couldn't say, like, Fat City Highlands. They sell Aspen Highlands, but you can't sell Fat City Highlands. Anyway, but Hunter started then. When did he first come to your attention? That year. Hells Angels? Yeah. Before starting Rolling Stone, I read Hell's Angels and admired him a lot.

And then he wrote me a fan letter in 1997 about how much he liked Rolling Stone. Yeah. And really, really nice. And so I wrote him an exit, asked him if he would write a obit of Terry the Tramp, one of the angels that just died. Yeah. And he said we could do that, but he was very busy running for sheriff. I said, well, why don't you write about that? Yeah.

And then we met after that, and we, you know, I mean, it was seeing this wizard coming in. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was crazy. So that was sort of when he was shifting into that Gonzo approach. He probably facilitated that on some level.

Yeah, I think we gave him more freedom for it. But he had started by accident. He only came to label it Gonzo when he started at Rolling Stone. But it was kind of a product of his inability or unwillingness to put things together. So he'd throw them together. He called that Gonzo. Right, because Hells Angels is pretty straightforward. Yeah, and he was a straightforward reporter yeah he was a newspaper journalist yeah and um it was during working for

us and then vegas which really gave it that shove off um fear and loathing he did fear and loathing las vegas and then we went from that to fear and loathing on the campaign right to 72 can't yeah and he was brilliant that's a masterpiece and that, when you could see that he was having that big a voice in politics, I mean, people really pay attention. Other members of the press, the McGovern campaign, you know. I mean, really inside it. There you started to get the sense that, oh man, this is meaningful on a different level. Much different level than just meaningful to the publicity department of a record company.

Or just music press. Yeah. Yeah. So, wow, this is a field to play at. That's a big deal. Yeah,

this is our new field. So you were able to balance it out. You had straight up music press and then you had big pieces, investigative pieces, challenging pieces.

So that was where you felt the juice. Yeah, in there and leading up to there, yeah. So now what about a lot of these other writers that you sort of nurtured? I mean, all these people were kids. You know, like Ann Lebowitz was a kid, right? All of them were kids.

Who else you got? Tom Wolfe, I mean, he was kind of established, right? He was already established by the time. Right, right, right. He had done a few things. Greal Marcus must have been a kid. Greal Marcus was a kid. He's somebody I knew from college.

We were in school together in Berkeley. Yeah, yeah. So you see all these people come up, and the same with a lot of the artists. Well, we, yeah. I mean, it was really a generational thing. It was kind of a sense of shared purpose and identity then. Because, I mean, this is the largest, best educated, wealthiest generation of Americans in history. It was coming into a system just ready kind of to take it over by sheer numbers.

And by the fact that, as I said, they're smarter. And we had a lot of money then. And not individually, but the country as a whole. Career wasn't as important then. People weren't ambitious. They got Wall Street or had to get this. It was way different. But it evolved into that, though.

I mean, that generation. I mean, I know you speak of it. Like, I'm a late boomer. And I have a mild resentment towards you early boomers. Only because it's sort of. We had a better time. I mean, what can I tell you? You did.

Better drugs, better music. No. Get out of here. I get it. I get it. only because it's sort of we had a better time I mean you did our drugs better music no I get out of here I get it I get it but you know you also it's sort of like you know get out of the way already well the but there was a shared sense of purpose I think that was shared with the audience and and with the musicians and that's what galvanized the people. The young people who came to Rolling Stone either came with a sense of mission. A lot of them were newspaper reporters like Esther House or Hunter. Who were looking for a place to work that would set a new bar, give them space, purpose. You know, freedom to do things.

And we offered that to people. And we were open to young people. And so, so therefore people would come to us all the time and we could sort out the more talented among them was there ever a sense of uh uh you know a conflict of interest i mean what in relationship with record companies or the artists or did you just pick who you liked and that was that we picked who we liked and that was that and yeah and we were in san francisco we were were isolated pretty much from most of the record business and the pressures that we could be brought to bear.

Nobody really, very few people ever really tried to push us. There's a usual hondling for a cover or an artist or coverage. Well, you would do reviews. You had record reviews. You had the stars. But we didn't give away stuff. We were not movable in that way. And everybody knew that.

And so very few people would ever approach us about it. Because as I said, our integrity and our selectivity of saying we'll be covering the best artists only was critical to the success of Only So. Right. But these are the best artists only. But, you know, it was a handful of artists for, you know, for decades, some of them. Yeah. There were a lot of, you know, there were a lot of good artists around. And we used to cover the Stones and the Beatles and Dylan endlessly.

Yeah, endlessly, for decades. Yeah, well, you know. But true, I mean, that was good to bet on those guys. Yeah. Certainly Dylan sort of evolved into something interesting. And then Springsteen as well, you guys seem to be good friends and kind of been on that train for a long time. These are evolving artists.

And as I recall, the Rolling Stone record reviews, that was the star system, right? There was one star, two star, three. And it seemed like you covered most music coming in, that that department was active. Yeah, but then slowly, the number of records being released outpaced everything. Everything was kind of people, groups, Electric Spinach and Sorry records being released outpaced everything. It was so much. Everything was kind of people. Yeah. Groups, Electric Spinach and Strawberry Alarm Club. Sure, sure.

You know, the Cauliflower Club and all this stuff. Yeah. It was too much stuff coming out. But are there bands, and I know you've been accused of this before, are there bands you just will not, you know, indulge at all? I mean, obviously, yes. But I mean, but like, you know, there at all i mean i obviously yes but i mean but like you know there's there's been talk of of you maybe stifling some people's membership into the rock and roll hall of fame

that uh you know that feel like they deserve it is that something that well there is talk of that but i don't i don't control that i'm not on the nominating you have nothing against foreigner per se nothing against farmers say in fact i was very good friends with Mick Jones. Sure. He's a big dude. And I like to work. But, you know, Foreigner's name has never come up in a nominating committee to be nominated. Are you a speed wagon? No.

No. You know, there's that era. Not them. Not Boston. Sticks. Sticks? No. I mean, that whole era, no, it doesn't come up at all. Weird era, huh? I grew up in that era. I went to high school in that era. It's weird.

It's odd. You're not going to get in the Hall of Fame either. What can I tell you? Hey, give me time. Give me time. And it's going to be me. You got in pretty quick. But there's kind of like Bon Jovi.

It took years for him to get in. Yeah. Eventually, you'll run out of guys. They'll all get in. They might not be around. There might be one guy left, but they'll get in. When he moved to New York. So by the time you moved to New York in 77, a decade in, you're well-established, making a fortune.

Everyone reads the magazine. It's got power. So what facilitated that move? Why did we do it? Well, yeah. I mean, San Francisco, had San Francisco lost its relevance? Well, let's start there. Well, this wasn't the governing reason.

It was in the background. And that was something I hadn't really even thought through at the time. But it turned out, once again, to be one of those fortuitous things. turned out once again to be one of those fortuitous things. By that time, San Francisco had really was no longer the center of American avant-garde cultural activity.

And in fact, it kind of shifted back to New York. New York, which had lain fallow for the decade, and then people moving out. It was economically compromised, but punk rock was sort of starting. But that wasn't until the mid-70s when we got there. But the oomph of the San Francisco scene,

the Dead had moved to Marin, and the Jefferson Airplane had become the Jefferson Starship. But the real reason we moved is I had half the office in New York, half in San Francisco, and to run the place, I had to consolidate both operations in one place,

the business and the editorial sides, and the magazine business in New York. So for us to grow and have access to the talent pool of writers and advertising salesmen, people who knew about the magazine business, we had to go there. They wouldn't move to San Francisco. But it's still all you, your own operation. It was still all on an operation. Yeah. So that basically was it you know i had to consolidate and had to move to new york for the future and for my ambitions for the

magazine to grow bigger and he brought you at that time you had three kids already i know had no kids already oh no kids no kids the woman you married was with you from the beginning from the very beginning yes she was a writer uh Not really. No, she was, she wasn't, she was sort of, started as a subscriptions director, but it was somebody who I met at Ramparts

when I was working there. Oh, wow, okay. Jane. Jane, exactly. And she wanted to move to New York because that's where she was from and homesick. Yeah.

She also didn't want to be around when the earthquake struck. Sure, right. Hasn't yet, really. No, hasn't yet, but also there's this SLA and a Zodiac killer in the air. It's just time to get out. It's getting dark.

And I've been going back and forth to New York for the last three years before that. I felt at home in New York. I felt, Rolling Stone felt more at home in New York. It was appreciated there more. Really? Well, it's a magazine town. Well, that's the thing about San Francisco, though. San Francisco, once they turn on you, they'll turn on you. They didn't turn on us, but we weren't that important there during

that time. I mean, it was the era of Bill Graham. Francis Coppola was there. KMPX was there. What was your experience in seeing concerts in San Francisco? Were you there at the beginning of the acid thing? Oh, yeah. Yeah? I mean, so you were there at the first experiment? I went to the very, for a very second, the second acid test, which was with the Grateful Dead. At the Shipman's Hall?

What was that? Longshoreman's Hall. Longshoreman's Hall, yeah. That was well into it. Yeah. Oh, really? I was in college going to the first one. And it was in San Jose.

And I was right following a Rolling Stones concert in 66. Oh, really? That was the last tour before Altamont. They came back in 69, right? Yeah, probably. So how was that acid then? Pretty good. Pretty good.

I mean, it was wild. That was the Alzu shit, right? The real shit. I didn't identify that. Presumably so. Yeah, yeah, it was wild. That was the Alzu shit, right? The real shit. I didn't identify that. Presumably so. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And what was it? And so did you find, unlike a couple people, the guy who stands out the most to me in my mind in terms of really identifying what acid did to his brain was R. Crumb.

Like, you know, if you look at R. Crumb before his cartoons, before acid and the ones when, you know, he saw a way of elongating those feet. Like I could see how it shifted his perception. Did it shift your perception? I didn't along my feet getting longer? No, no. But, you know, I'm just saying your way of seeing the world. Oh, yeah. I mean, I think.

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I think when you take LSD for the first time, you really understand how interconnected every bit of life is. Okay, yeah, right. The frequency. Well, just that all living things are connected by some energy field. And I think at least a perception like that leads to the sign that you should respect all these things, that you respect the natural world, respect things all around you just by that insight.

And it's that kind of thing. And then plus, you know, there's the vividness which it brings to music and all the sensory aspects of things. And, you know, when you feel things that intensely, I think you always understand them to be of that intensity at some point along. I mean, you can't always recover that intensity, but you know it's there. Point of reference.

Yeah, and I feel greatly I benefited from it. Sure. And I think people would, and I think it's a question of managing it correctly. People are doing it again. Microdosing, psilocybin, ayahuasca. I would hope it, you know, comes under government regulation so that,

you know, things like purity and dosages are, you know, sorted out so it's not all an underground thing.

So we don't have Altamont again. Well, the, I keep seeing Mick up there behind you. So, I mean,

I think there's a lot of, tons of positive things to say about drugs. So, but by the time you go, so you get, in New York, you're 77, so I mean I think there's a lot of tons of positive things to say about drugs so but by the time you get so you get in New York you're 77

punk rock's happening right disco is kind of over no it's on the horizon yeah when we got to New York decided to move

the first thing I saw was there's a headline in the daily news Ford to city dropped dead so we were welcomed into the city as the first

kind of new enterprise especially a young one that come to the city for drop dead. So we were welcomed into the city as the first kind of new enterprise, especially a young one that come into the city for years because of bad situation. And then, you know, punk rock arrived from England. And we had to decide how to deal with that. And a couple of years later, disco. And in the meantime, the kind of the old, there was just a drop in the vitality of rock and roll at that time.

The San Francisco groups were not particularly making or being or special there's nothing right and also all those you know the late 60s early 70s you know big rock bands were kind of they kind of plateaued a bit the stones were out of action appeals were gone zeppelin was not doing you know was towards the end of zeppelin uh then at the same time, movies came alive. And remember, that's when Star Wars came out. Right. And there's this whole new generation of filmmakers, especially Coppola, Lucas, Spielberg, were coming in.

And coming in with movies that were really interesting and relevant to cover. And so I kind of sent artistic young people, shifted a little from rock to movies at that time, and then back again, and it was moving around. So it was a shift in a lot of things when we moved to New York. But for you, I guess, do you consider yourself a writer? I was a writer when I started out. I wanted to be, and then I couldn't get anybody to publish my writing about Rock and Roll then. So I started my own magazine.

So you see yourself as more of a publisher and editor. I became an editor, and then after that a publisher, and now I'm back to being a writer after all this time. And I must say I enjoy it. Now, people like, did you ever, like there were other magazines around. Did you ever feel a sense of competition? You know, Cream just started up again. I saw. No, the only competition we ever really had was Spin. That happened later, right, in the 70s?

Much later. Yeah. But no, because we had everybody beat by that time. I mean, you couldn't compete with our level of talent. Yeah. The loyalty and the acts wanting to be with us. And we came out every two weeks, so we would be anybody who's putting on a monthly magazine.

Yeah, yeah. Cream or Spin. I mean, and then the artists, where would you rather go? Sure. Cream or Rolling Stone? Well, Cream was kind of dirty. I mean, did you like Wester Bangs at all? You didn't know him?

I mean, he was a talented man, but I fired him. Oh, you did? That's what did it. Well, I just thought, you know, Lester was a clever writer, but he was just writing his riffs. Yeah. Savaging groups in the record section, just having nothing to do with the record, but it was a good riff for him. Sure. And I didn't think the mission of Rolling Stone, our mission was to support artists and analyze them fairly and critically and objectively and treat them with respect.

You know, Lester Baines didn't give a shit, you know, anything about it. Yeah, so in terms, when you're entering New York, this is pre-disco, so this is where cocaine happens. Kind of, yeah, I guess in that time period, yeah. Because there's like, there's a lot. No, it started before that. Yeah?

It was, I remember it around a lot in San Francisco. Oh yeah? Oh yeah. But it seems like in terms of disco culture and the sort of, you know,

the new New York, the mingling of that sort of aristocratic and wealthy class with, you know, nightclub life, that all starts to happen. Studio 54.

Sure. Sure. And that, you know, obviously tones based not only on cocaine but quaaludes and poppers and all sorts of stuff. That's what I've seen. But just to the point,

cocaine was getting very prevalent in San Francisco by 72, 73. Oh, yeah? Absolutely, yeah. It was all around, and there was a lot of it in the office. You liked it? It's irresistible in a way at the beginning because it's just fun lights you up and

you know it's only after a while these start to realize this is you know you're not sleeping do you know I in my book I explicitly say raise the question how do I feel about now what would I say I say don't do it I it was a waste of time yeah energy and money. Yeah, yeah. I wouldn't recommend it to anybody. Now, when you're dealing with people like Hunter, who's just a bag of drugs all the time,

I mean, that exploration was sort of interesting. I mean, he seemed to do something with it that no one else really did. Well, remember, he was a doctor. Yeah. He was a doctor of pharmacology. Hunter had an unusual ability to use that stuff and resist it and absorb it and balance it. And he was a professional drug taker, really.

But it destroyed him in the end. Coke and drink. I mean, it furthered away his talent and his ability to do things as it does with everybody. Nobody has survived. That's right. There's a big bout of cocaine. Jerry, too. Jerry.

Jerry, lots of drugs. Yeah has survived. That's right. There's a big bout of cocaine. Jerry, too. Jerry. Jerry, lots of drugs. Yeah, heroin. And, you know, look at people like Sly Stone and Ike Turner. You know? What was your, like, when you look back on that, which deaths hit you the hardest? Well, John Lennon's death, obviously. Oh, my God. That was the hardest.

Brutal. Because that one you didn't see coming. He's young. Everything was turning around. Just, oh, just that one you didn't see coming. He's young. Everything was turning around. Just, oh, just terrible. That's the end of an era. Yeah. That's when we're talking about the end of eras.

What year was that? 80? 1980, yeah. Yeah. Wow. That was it, huh? Like, Manson killed the 60s, and John Lennon's death killed the 70s. You could kind of say that, you know?

I mean, in a broad sense, you know, you could say, as John said, the dream is over. Yeah. You know, that Manson represented kind of hippie drug use gone too far, even though he was just an ex-con. Yeah, no, yeah. You know, it wasn't really. And- I think it was represented

as such by mainstream press. It was represented as such, but there was a vibe about it that felt that way. Yeah, it dirtied up everything. Yeah. So when you come into New York, you're there three years, and then Lennon dies. How does that change you? How does that change you? Because that seems to be the beginning of...

I don't know when Wolf wrote Bonfire, but that exploration of the beginning of you know what i don't know when wolf wrote bonfire but like you know that exploration of of the beginning of 80s excess which sort of you know the wave of that crashing now and crashing with trump in a way right when does that start in earnest well uh in 1980 when john was killed let's see rolling stuff we were seriously established in New York and we got on our feet on the ground. We were in the mix of the whole New York groove and had settled into kind of who we were. When you have an event like John dying, it really makes you think about all kinds of things. And it really sets you back and makes you think, who am I?

And what am I? And what am I going to do? How do I define myself in a relationship? What am going to learn from this this is serious this is you as a person or you as a magazine both yeah you have to really say what do i really yeah want to get done if this is what it's going to be about this right if this can happen yeah so that really shaped us tom and bonfire came after that that that was my idea for Tom. And he did a job so brilliant beyond what I had anticipated or expected. Didn't you suggest to him that he make him a writer and not an investment banker? Well, we were on deadline for the after year.

And he said, you know, I've thought about this, Jan. I want to change it from a writer to change the hero from a writer to an investment banker. Yeah. Well, I don't care what he was thinking. I was going to say it was a bad idea. Because I knew if he changed that character, it would be another year. So it was a tight thing?

Because you have to go research a whole new set of circumstances, you know, this whole world of investment banker. It takes me a year to do research. Well, when we published it, the main character, Sherman McCoy, was a freelance writer. Yeah. And he changed into an investment banker. Yeah.

Didn't make any difference in the plot, anything that happened, but. But it's fortuitous in terms of. Totally. Yeah. I mean, and I'm saying, oh, nobody gives a hell about investment. Because, of course, it was the beginning of the media decade. Yeah. And go-go.

Yeah. What do they call them, the people who made so much damn money? Masters of the Universe. Oh, Masters of the Universe. Were you one of them? No, no, no, no, no. No. So in the 80s,

also in terms of your friendships, it seems like many of your friends are artists. Yeah. Who are your best friends? These days? Yeah. Well, it sounds like name dropping. It's okay.

So I don't want to do that. No, it's not name dropping. It's interesting that in light of your life, that, you know, a lot of times we don't see these guys as regular guys. So it's not really name dropping. They're just, these are the guys that you came up with. You have to buy the book to get that. Get the juice.

That's the juice. I'll say that I'm still extremely close friends with some old friends of mine from San Francisco. His names mean nothing to anybody, but somebody close to all his friends. I'm really super close friends with John Landau and John Cott, who are two people at Rolling Stone on Issue 1. That's right. They were both college students. Landau's Springsteen's guy. Springsteen's manager.

Yeah. And then I have an old longtime friendship with Michael Douglas, who I met. Mike Douglas. When he was doing Streets of San Francisco. You guys still friends? Total. Oh, yeah. Great guy.

I've interviewed him. Love that guy. Yeah. He's as close a friend as I've got. Yeah. And, you know, Bruce. Yeah. And I must say, I'm really close with Bette Midler and her husband

oh yeah we travel together all the time and just have a great time you're still friends with Mick yeah

I don't see Mick as much anymore Mick moved back to Europe he was in New York for the longest time in the States and we're in touch

all the time but our social life is hanging together which I've put a lot of in this book, you know, and when he moved back. Sure.

So how does your involvement with the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame happen? What is that? How did that get started? Well, Ahmed Erdogan had the idea of starting a Rock and Roll Hall of Fame in some inchoate way, you know, he doesn't know what it was,

and invited me and a couple other people to work with him to do it. And we evolved the idea of putting together an annual induction dinner and an actual physical Hall of Fame museum. And it took about 10 years to get this, maybe longer, 15 years to get it actually built. In the meantime, we were doing induction dinners every year,

which were the most wonderful things in the world yeah pulling together for one night only yeah the great artists and paying tribute and combinations of artists playing together you'd never ever seen before it was a start where we started collaborations of ours and guest stars now it's a usual trinity thing but then you you know you have like mick and bruce and bob dillon all singing like a rolling stone on stage together. Before it was televised, just as a performance. And then I made the decision to televise it because I thought this stuff is too good to keep to a thousand people in the Waldorf Astoria. Let's just tape it and put it on TV.

People should see it. And then it's become bigger and bigger. So, but you and Ahmed were the... We were the instrumental people. And I ran the thing and put it's become bigger and bigger. So, but you and Ahmed were the... We were the instrumental people. And Ahmed was the chair. I ran the thing and put it together. And Ahmed was kind of the guiding spirit.

Yeah. So, yeah, he was quite a presence for so long. Totally. Like, you know, I was in... I portrayed Jerry Wexler in the Aretha Franklin movie. Oh, you did? In the Respect movie, yeah. So, I had a... Like, I got a little...

Did you see it? I saw the beginning of it. It's that famous incident with Rick Hall and the dad in the hotel. Yeah, the fighting. Yeah, it's all in there. But, like, I did a little research on the Ertigen brothers and Wexler himself and how he fit in and how they fit in. And it's interesting because that whole prehistory of rock and roll, pre to when you started. Right.

It seems like you have a fairly healthy respect for all that. I was very close to Jerry. He was very helpful to us. Was he? Absolutely. Good friends with Landau. He signed up Boz when I brought him Boz Gags. You produced Boz's first record?

Yeah. The solo record? Yeah. Uh-huh. And at Muscle Shoals. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And Ahmed, I became very, very close to.

Ahmed was a real mentor to me. In New York? In New York. How so? Yeah. He was a friend of Ralph's, and I don't know, we just- Ralph Gleeson. Yeah, and he was a-

Because his brother was a jazz guy. His brother's a jazz guy, yes. And then over the years, we just became you know, we became very social friends. And then when we did the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, we started working together on a daily, weekly basis. And so we'd see so much of each other and we traveled so much together. And it was so fun and serendipitous and sophisticated and funny. I mean, what a wonderful man he was. Yeah. Well, it seems to me that somehow at some point in New York, just by some of the stories in the book and also the pictures, that you were sort of elevated to this world of creative

people who were extraordinarily wealthy, that you were in that circle at some point. Well, I don't know if they were all extraordinarily wealthy. I mean, I don't know. Everybody was quite successful. Okay. And people made money for their success. But I wouldn't call it almond or any of the R's. They're all well off.

Right. They've all got, you know. Well, it just seems the lifestyle shifted in New York. From San Francisco? Oh, sure. And just in general. But every, you know, in New York, I mean, that's where people go to make their careers and all that stuff. But, you know, these are not like billionaire type people, you know.

But it's a sophisticated. Did you know Donald Trump in New York? I've met him a couple of times. I found him despicable even then. You know, I wouldn't really have anything to do with him. Yeah, you don't have to talk about him. Now, in terms of like later, obviously, do you feel a couple things? Do you feel like you stayed there too long?

In New York? Just in the magazine. Oh, my staying with the magazine? No, I had always thought, get it to 50 years and I'm going to retire. I'm going to just absolutely retire at 50, bow out, take a bow, and leave. And I got almost there. But then the internet intervened, and it really started to erode the foundations of the magazine business very substantially. And the news business.

It was gradual, but it went very fast. I mean, they really sucked the life out of magazines and newspapers and journalism. They stole all the, you know, Apple and Microsoft and these companies, Google. Yeah. Stole all the contents free, didn't pay anybody a dime for them. Right, right. And then took the material, repurposed it,

sold those readers to advertisers without giving us a cut whatsoever. Yeah, right. And they took the life out of it. Right. But in any case, I think I went, you know, it was time to go for sure. And maybe I could have retired a few years earlier, but.

What year did you retire? I, about three years ago, four years ago. Oh, just now. Just as their 50th anniversary. Oh, wow. In 19, in 2017. And do you feel like that the magazine maintained its quality and integrity throughout the entire run? That I was there?

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we didn't have as much money to work with towards the end because the advertising is shrinking and going to the internet. But we're still putting out high quality work. Yeah. You know, good, all this stuff.

Just much less of it. And also at the same time, it was harder in a way to do magazine editorial because more people are gravitating towards the internet. Less money is available. And when did you change the size? Before that, I forget when. You still like those big sizes. I remember buying it when I was a kid with the newspaper

and then it became the magazine. We've changed format a half dozen times. I honestly think, although the big format is great and it's still kind of classic, feels classic, the magazine style format was great, and it's still kind of classic, feels classic Rolling Stones, the magazine style format was just it made it easier, better to read, we could manage the pages better.

Yeah. I liked it better as a magazine, honestly. You did? Yeah. But the newspaper lasted a long time. Oh, yeah. I mean, it was we've been toying with shrinking the size down, I think for years before that, and every time I bring it up, everybody would scream at me and yell at me,

no, you can't, it's the heritage of Rolling Stones. I mean, I was going to destroy. And really, when we did change, it was for the better. And the only thing, it was a nostalgia item by that point. I mean, it's just easier. I don't know.

Yeah. How many interviews did you guys do with Dylan? I don't know. I think about eight or nine or ten over the years. Remember, Bob was famous for, oh, he doesn't give interviews. He's mysterious. He doesn't talk. Over the years, he goes ten.

Pretty long, serious interviews. Yeah, I remember the later ones, you know, I think in the 80s. He was pretty candid. He's very straightforward with us. I mean, we put out a book called The Essential Bob Dylan and with these interviews, you stream together you've really got a record of Bob. I mean, he didn't talk to anybody else.

We were the ones. He respected us. We respected him. We really wanted to support him and his work. I mean, that was the core of Rolling Stone was that kind of set of values and that attitude. Yeah. And I did two of them and both were really quite good. Yeah.

Even though he's in that, you know, talking to the last one was hilarious. Yeah. And he did a series of them. He did Michael Gilmore and Jonathan Cot and Kurt Loder and Ben Functoris and Doug Brinkley and novelist Jonathan, not Franzen, Lethem. Yeah, yeah. I mean, and they went, and every time I would send somebody different to do Bob

to get a different point of view and a different take. And was a lot of it relative to how he felt about the guy there? No, I mean, each one he respected. I sent, these were all serious people, but they all had a different point of view, a different thing they wanted to find out about Bob, you know. Yeah, yeah. And so it was always exploring from a different angle.

That's why I didn't keep doing it all the same. I didn't want the same interview with him. How's your relationship with him? Excellent. Yeah? He's all right? He's great. Oh, good.

We get along great. When we see each other, it's just laughs. Yeah, yeah. He's kind of funny. He's a funny old guy. Very funny guy. Yeah. Now, also, I was in Almost Famous for a minute.

No, wait. All my movies. Yeah. Yeah. I was in, I was the promoter at the concert. When the guitar player gets electrocuted and they leave before their set is over, I'm the guy chasing them on the car. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's a very small part, but I'm in there. I'm there. Yeah. We're fellow cast. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. I'm the cast. You got the bigger parts than I do.

That's a little bit. Yeah. I didn't. Yeah. Yeah, that's right. I'm the cast. You got the bigger parts than I do. That's a little bit. Yeah. But I didn't even get any speaking lines. You meant speaking lines. I'm trying to remember where you were. Lock the gate. That was me. I was in the, towards the end of the movie.

Yeah. The Rolling Stone reporter is chasing somebody outside the Gramercy Park Hotel in New York and going from taxi cab to taxi cab. Yeah, yeah. Looking at somebody. And I'm in one taxi cab. I'm reading the Times. I look at him, give him a dirty look, and he runs on.

So the credits now say, young winner as legend in a taxi cab. Yeah, yeah. It was definitely, it was for people who knew. Yeah, yeah. So how close was that to the reality? It was very, very close. It was. First of all, I always think of it as a love letter, Rolling Stone.

Sure. And to those days and to who we all were. Yeah. And it was accurate about Rolling Stone. I mean, that's what Rolling Stone reporters did, more or less. They got and hang out on the road for a while. Yeah. You know, hang with the band, get into it, because they loved the band.

Yeah. And that's not always the case. Ben was not like loose and laid back and taking acid with people or whatever. But it was very much the spirit of the times and it was a true story and true story about Cameron. Yeah. Cameron wrote for us,

I think, when he was 14 and a half. Yeah. You know, he started. And I had to write, get a letter from his mother for permission for him to go on the road.

Really? Oh, yeah. I mean, he was in high school. Yeah. He didn't run away. How many pieces did he write for you guys? Gosh, I don't know.

A lot? A lot, yeah. He had lots of covers. And you guys gosh i don't know a lot there's a lot yeah yeah lots of covers and you guys he's a real staple of yours are you a friend of his yeah yeah very much so now in terms of your personal life you made a tremendous shift midway through yes i mean that's it like when i was looking at the book and i was thinking about it just seems like you just uh almost made a decision to to do this part of your life differently. Yeah. I mean, I wasn't, you know, desperate to come out of the closet or in agony or these things you read about.

And I just, you know, I knew I was gay or bisexual, whatever you call it, for years. You're born that way. I was gay or bisexual, whatever you call it, for years. You're born that way. I didn't find it really an impediment to my life or how I was living my life. And I was married and I had three kids and we had wonderful homes. And, you know, just exactly a wonderful life. Yeah.

But then I fell in love with somebody else. Yeah. And, you know, it made complete sense. And it kind of, you know, different in that way in which you had this other kind of, you know, the sexual component became different. Yeah. And more fulfilling in its way. Yeah. And went on and had three more kids. Yeah.

And. How did that, how did you do that? Through surrogacy. So they're your kids? They're our kids, yeah. Yeah. You had two, he had two and you had one no we had three together okay

no but I mean whose sperm got used how does that work it's none of your business I can just look at the kids and guess yeah that's

that's that's what you're gonna have to do and so we got you know we live we're we live close by

the two families yeah the kids are all intermingled and being raised together We live close by the two families. The kids are all intermingled and being raised together. They're much older, right? The older kids are in their 30s, and these kids are teenagers. That's exciting, though, for everybody. It's fun. Everybody loves it.

It's total fun. And your ex-wife's all right? Yeah. Yeah? Everybody gets along? Everybody gets along. Great. It's nice.

A cursed knock on wood. Yeah. But, yeah, it's turned out just great. I'm turning out very lucky. It was a tough thing to do. It was very tough on my wife. Yeah. And it was hard on the older kids for a while.

Yeah. They adapt quickly, but, you know, it was the right thing for everybody. Yeah. Where do you spend most of your time? I live in New York and in Long Island, the end of Long Island, Montauk. Yeah. And try and spend as much time there as possible. It's pretty out there, huh?

Yeah, it's gorgeous, and it's the beach, and it's the nature. And New York City is wonderful, but it's pretty dirty. And there's a, boy, the world of the desert is making me wake up. I'm in Manhattan waking up. You're never looking out the ocean. Yeah, it's pretty. So, like, now as you get older and you're hobbled now, how, you know. The hoblet. Yeah, the hoblet.

Do you look back with any particular, you know, specific nostalgia about the past? Do you have any regrets? Well, I don't really have any basic full regrets. Those are things I'd change. I mean, I'd be happy to have saved all that money and not use the cocaine and waste all that time. There are a couple of people that I hired I wish I hadn't hired.

Oh, yeah? Disasters. But in the course of building a business, you go through people to find out who's right and who's wrong. There's a couple articles that could have been better, a couple that shouldn't have been published,

stuff like that, but, you know, overall, no, I don't. I mean, I had a great life. I've had a wonderful time and still alive and got great kids and, you know,

the money and the reward to be able to, you know, live comfortably and still enjoy the same things. I met amazing people throughout my life, saw amazing music, participated in amazing times, both socially and with seeing, you know, in major political parts of American life.

I mean, having a small, tiny voice, but still a voice in national affairs and the direction of the country. Are you concerned about that now? Oh, yeah. I mean, it's the overwhelming direction of the country. Are you concerned about that now? Oh, yeah. I mean, it's the overwhelming issue of the time is really climate

change, and that ties straight to politics. And fascism. Well, you know, it ties straight to that. I mean, I don't think you would have this climate issue if you didn't have fascism, if you didn't have the state under the control of these wealthy, wealthy, wealthy, wealthy

multi-billionaires and internationally. So, I mean, I think that if you had a truly democratic society representing the will of people now, we would have solutions for climate change because the demand for this, the average person doesn't want dirty water, dirty air and see everything eroded. But rich people don't seem to... Certain many very wealthy people, oil companies, don't give a shit. It's weird, right? Yeah.

I mean, what are they going to do with their money? Where are they going to spend it? By the way, in the Arctic Circle, what stores are going to be left? Well, yeah. How do you sort of account for that as a guy who's been around as long as you have? Are they that disconnected from life? Or have they rationalized it? Are they rationalizing?

Well, surely they rationalize it. And they really want to believe that the science is uncertain. Or they rationalize it in terms of, well, it'll just be a little erosion. Right, right. You come to some type of justification with yourself. But the basic fact is that they're greedy. Yeah.

And the money and the power means more to them. It's like, what are you going to do with a billion dollars? But what are you going to do with a hundred billion dollars? And what are you going to, I mean, it's greed. And it's the same thing that supports Trump. It's not just the crazy people, the religious fanatics or something like that. It's the wealthy people like the Koch brothers who finance this stuff. Yeah, sure.

Because they don't want their taxes. They don't want their taxes to go. And it's greed. It's a disease, I think, by my estimation. Yeah. And I know a lot of people who are wealthy at that level. Yeah. You know, some of them are very nice, but it's hard to say what do you, why?

Yeah. Where does it end yeah but for myself i feel you know very satisfied i i mean i i still feel active in politics and bitching about all the time yeah i would love to have rolling some back to give me a voice of it but that that it doesn't work that way anymore. You know, it's all on the internet and it's fast breaking news and, you know, we used to do deep analysis

and behind the scenes and move things every hour, but I think it's coming around. You know, it's funny. It's like, I was, I was thinking about Rolling Stone

in my life and there was one, it's weird what moves people, but I remember a few years ago, I had to go find that piece that somebody wrote in Rolling Stone about John Holmes. Oh, yeah. Do you remember that?

That was the porn star here in LA, right? Yeah. I think McCartney was on the cover. But I just remember the article being so disturbing. And it's sort of like what that whole movie was about. And it really was indicative of an era and Los Angeles at a time. It's quite a piece, man. Thank you.

We did a lot of great journalism. I mean, cultural stuff, you know, which is forgotten like that. I mean, and weird stories for me, but it was the era of Jesus freaks and cults, and then there's so much good stuff. Well, absolutely. Good life. Good talking to you.

Yeah. Thank you, absolutely. Good life. Good talking to you. Yeah. Thank you, Mark. There you go. Yon Wenner, the memoir, like a Rolling Stone is now available. Uh,

I thought that went pretty well. Hang out for a minute if you will. And I'll tell you how you can ask me anything. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats, get almost, almost anything.

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Center. In two weeks, I'll be in London doing a live WTF at the Blooms Theater. And tomorrow, Friday, I'm in Carmel-by-the-Sea, California at the Sunset Center. In two weeks, I'll be in London doing a live WTF at the Bloomsbury Theater on Wednesday, October 19th with comedian and writer David Baddiel. Tickets for that are on sale now. Then I've got stand-up shows at the Bloomsbury

on Saturday and Sunday, October 22nd and 23rd. Dublin, Ireland, I'm at Vicar Street on Wednesday, October 26th. Then in November, I'm in Oklahoma City, Dallas, San Antonio, Houston, Ireland. I'm at Vicar Street on Wednesday, October 26th. Then in November, I'm in Oklahoma City, Dallas, San Antonio, Houston, Long Beach, California, Eugene, Oregon, and Bend, Oregon. San Antonio, small room, added a show. You might want to get on that if you want to get on that. In December, I'm in Asheville, North Carolina. Also added a show. If you want

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