WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1373 - Zahn McClarnon

Episode Date: October 10, 2022

Zahn McClarnon’s early experiences with reservation life helped him add some personal touches as a cast member of Reservation Dogs. But it was actually his experience with the musical Jesus Christ Superstar that got him into acting in the first place. Zahn and Marc talk about their shared love of working with Sterlin Harjo on Reservation Dogs and why it’s a history-making show. They also talk about Zahn’s struggles with drugs earlier in his life and how he actually used psychedelics to help kick heroin. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated

category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton.

The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening welcome what's going on how are you today on the show i talked to uh zon mclaren great guy great to work with that guy you know you guys have seen him in uh the Today on the show, I talked to Zahn McLaren. Great guy. Great to work with that guy. You know, you guys have seen him in the second season of Fargo, Westworld, Longmire, Dark Winds. And he plays Officer Big on Reservation Dogs.

He's been in a couple of Sterling Harjo movies. But I got to work with him on Res Dogs, and it was great. He's a great actor, and he's funny. And he can also be very intense. I've seen him in many roles. Dude can be scary. But as big on Rez Dogs, a unique frequency of humor. I was very happy that he agreed to do the show.

I talked to him about it when we shot. And as I've said before, it was such a great time to do that show it was really one of the great experiences of my life as an actor speaking of which to leslie is out you can get it uh on demand you can see it in a theater a few if it's near you uh it's it's kind of exciting it's got a 97 rating on rotten tomatoes. And no one has said I sucked, which is nice. I mean, people don't usually say I suck, but they usually don't say anything. I'm not sure what's worse. But it's been all around great.

Also, I'll be on Corden tonight, I believe. I know I'm recording it today. Those of you in London, there are still tickets for our live taping of WTF at the Bloomsbury Theatre on Wednesday, October 19th. I'll be talking with comedian

and writer and Jew, David Baddiel. You can go to wtfpod.com slash tour for tickets. Also, for those of you signed up for WTF Plus, we've officially satisfied all our promotional commitments that we had prior to the launch. So all episodes of the WTF archives are now completely ad free.

And for those of you who already subscribe, thanks for your patience while those few ads hung around. And for the rest of you, now is a great time to subscribe. You get every WTF episode ad free and full Marin subscribers get bonus content every week. Go to the episode description on your podcast app and click on the link to subscribe or go to WTFpod.com and click WTF plus. So I worked last weekend. I don't want to go through the whole thing again because I can't really understand how to explain it. And I'm only trying to explain it if people can sort of relate to it. There are times when my anxiety is compounded. My inability to compartmentalize makes a tsunami of small things turn into one large sort of massive anxiety fire. And I, uh, you know, I've,

I got to travel, uh, this week and next week, but I went, I traveled last weekend. I was in, uh, Livermore, great show up there and wine country. I think it is. It's unclear. We drove up me and bites, uh, drove the car up as opposed to fly, drove up the didn't drive up the coast, drove up the the five. One of the worst drives interstate five between here and the Bay Area. Horrendous. It's like driving on Mars until you reach the cows. And then it's like driving through Mars if Mars smelled like manure. And then at some point you reach Anderson's pea soup. And you ask yourself, has anyone had pea soup at Anderson's?

Why is that place still there? Why is that sign still there? Who the fuck drives on Mars in 98 degree weather in this sort of dusty shit smelling strip of highway and think that like, oh, wow, pea soup sounds good. This is a very regional, very specific reference. But if you knew, you would know that Anderson's pea soup on Mars has been there forever. And I don't know anyone who's eaten there. Someone must. I don't know.

It can't be a front out there in the middle of fucking, no, it doesn't matter. So we drove up and those shows were good. But the problem was last week, as I told you on Tuesday afternoon, my cat, my new cat, the kitten, Charlie, Charlie Beans Roscoe, just stopped eating and was pukey. And look, I've owned many cats. I've had cats disappear. I've put cats down. I've had cats disappear. I've put cats down. I've had sick cats. I've hospiced cats.

But it makes no difference. When one of them gets sick, it's just horrendous for me. Because I just assume that this is it. And you just sort of like, why did I get a dud? Why do I got a dud cat? But this cat's great. I mean, arguably Sammy might be a dud. But that's another story but he's all right yeah i'll figure it out we'll work it out we've got like probably 15 20 years so but charlie's sick and i gotta go out of town and i'm

using you know i'm having you know cat sitters come over and sometimes people stay here. But the whole thing is if I'm not here, I freak out. And this cat, I'm just getting reports back. He's still not eating. He's still a little pukey. And I'm sure he's going to die and I'm on the road. So everything sort of runs through that. I was stressed out and I was almost incapable of wrangling it. Okay.

And everything looked horrendous and life did not seem worth living triggered all by my kitten being sick and not eating so the day that we drove home from the bay area from carmel by the sea i was waiting to hear you know whether the cat ate and and then i heard back from a vet the vet who i took him to who i, you know, whether the cat ate. And then I heard back from a vet, the vet who I took him to, who I said, you know, he's still sick. And that guy's like, well, you got to take him to an emergency hospital. He needs a different type of treatment. So I'm like, I got it in my head.

I'm going to be home for just a few days. And I'm just going to hope that this fucking kitten doesn't die or whatever's happening. And I got to take him to the hospital today and he'll probably have to be there overnight and it's just going to be a fucking cortisol fucking shit show through till the time i leave and then maybe even when i'm gone that's where i was at and then i got another email that said charlie ate he ate well and i'm like oh my god the it was like it had all been lifted off it was one of the

better feelings in life it was all lifted the cat's okay everything is okay it all went away and i started to realize like if i looked over my life and all the stress and all the the shit i put myself through mentally anxiety fear my imagination when left untethered is really just going to generate amazing things to make me feel shitty and panicky. And what do I get out of that? Why do I let my brain do that? Why does my brain do that? Is the relief that good? Is that what life is? I'm having a good day because I was able to stop beating the shit out of myself for a few hours. And also a couple of things weren't as bad as I thought they would be. That's a great day.

Wow. It comes and goes. And I've got the capacity to put my blinders up and not react to things I'm making up or my brain is making up without my consent. And you just stay the line, hold the line mentally. Trick I learned from meditating, the short period I did it. But I don't let thoughts drift by. I stop them and realize, dude, that's your brain. This is your car. That's your brain. That's the road. That's your brain. This is your car. That's your brain. That's the road. That's your brain. Look at your fingers.

That's your brain. Hey, move your seat up a little. That's your brain. This is me choosing a song to play on the radio. The difference between what's happening in the immediate reality versus the just fucking screaming shit show of my brain, the screaming shit show of panic, anxiety, and fear is profound, obviously. So all that to say, Charlie's okay. He's eating a lot.

I don't know what the fuck it was. I don't know if it was a cleaning product or just being a young cat. I'm a little nervous now. See, that's where I went. That's what I did. I thought, there's got to be a cleaning product. I think it's that thing that the cleaning lady brings with her, that yellow fucking stuff. I've got to get products.

stuff i've got to get products i've got to have a totally plant-based fucking pet friendly cleaning um product arsenal there can be nothing made with bad chemicals that's what i decided so that's the whole thing i'm panicking about cleaning products how do i eco my cleaning products i want i want a reason but charlie's okay they're all okay oh my god oh my god what can i tell you it's very exciting it's very exciting zon mclaren is here It's very exciting. Zahn McLaren is here. He's in Reservation Dogs. I did an episode with him. That show is streaming now on Hulu.

Great show. And now this is me talking to Zahn McLaren. It's hockey season, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice? Yes, we deliver those.

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What do you play? A snail or a rabbit or a wolf? I play a... Yeah, right. What? A vampire. A vampire. Like an Aztecan vampire oh they had a they had they had to make it a brown vampire yeah brown with green eyes i know we got that's what they do now that's right we got everyone has to be represented yes in the in the vampire cartoons. Inclusion. Inclusion. We need the Aztec.

He's got to be a real native and indigenous person. Yeah. So he comes from a long line of horrendous human sacrifice and whatnot? Yeah. Is that all in the backstory? Not really. It's a show called, I don't know, fuck, am I supposed to talk about this? Yeah. Yeah, I think so. Is it done?

I don't know. They just keep calling me back in. That's the way animation is. When is this going to be over? I know. You don't even see the whole script. And I actually think every time I'm in there, I'm like, is this it? Yeah.

They say, good to see you, Zahn. Again, we'll see you later. And then, you know, I get a call. Yeah, just a few more we gotta we've added more stuff yeah we understand the character better

yeah so my episode you're on a lot of the episodes but our episode of are you on now are we on Rez Dogs oh yeah we're on

yeah we've done we're almost done dude I love this shroom man someone made that for me a fan made that for me you ever done psilocybin sure i have once or twice but i don't think i did it with the right spirit yeah and not in terms of you know who was guiding me or or i i just don't think i i was younger yeah i was in college i was uh you know not really a fully formed self yet sure so i was just sort of like fuck it let's trip and you know i just freaked out didn't didn't ride the wave i think the psychedelics are wasted on the youth that for sure yeah i mean did you do them i i've

done recently yeah oh yeah yeah for uh medicinal reasons medicinal now, let's talk about that for a minute. But when you do it medicinally, do you trip balls or do you just take a bit? It's not clear to me what microdosing means. It means you just trip a little? No, this wasn't microdosing. This was full on. Full on, but with a sitter and somebody who's- A sitter? Yeah.

A shroom sitter? Yeah. Well, somebody who's got a degree in you know shrooming kind of yeah i mean the guys guys sat with hundreds of people before but no just uh somebody who's trained in psychedelics and and uh trained in psychedelics. Trained in psychedelics? Well, not just psychedelics.

No, I get it. Where do you get that? He comes from, I can't remember what school he comes from. Yeah. But he's just somebody that walks you through it. And you do it for specific reasons. There's a whole outline that you do. Oh, yeah? reasons there's a whole you know whole outline that you do you know oh yeah especially when you know you know my past with you know being sober for 22 years now yeah you would think

there'd have to be some framework there yeah definitely a lot of work a lot of work but you know that's how i got sober was through uh psychedelics was through was through mescaline. Peyote, yeah. That's how I kicked heroin. Yeah, through peyote. Yeah, it was one of the first, it was like an underlying base that I started off on was peyote meetings. And then I got back into 12-step programs as well. Yeah.

How long did it take you to kick the peyote? It's almost like the last thing you want to go do again. It's so non-addictive. It's just like psilocybin. It's like, I don't want to go do another set. Yeah. I mean, what I went through and- When did you get sober?

2000. So it's been a while. Yeah. So, but talking through this mushroom thing when you say because like i've when you say you go for a reason yeah like i did some emdr therapy you know which is the buzzers and the where what are the light whatever however they do it and and it seems to me that's trauma focused and if you know what the trauma is and you can get there you know you can move through it through that that process

right and i think it's helpful so when you do a guided psilocybin trip for a specific reason what what kind of reason and what's the what's the process uh i i personally did it for health reasons i had some some underlying issues oh yeah i've been dealing with okay and uh that that that fear of death has crept up quite a bit in the last few years. I was having a hard time dealing with it.

Really? And that was the main reason I went and did a sit. How was it manifesting? Panic? Panic, anxiety. The fact that it just all of a sudden is right here on an everyday basis

instead of somewhere into the future. You know what I find helps with that? What's that? Thinking about killing yourself. You always have control over that thing. Yeah, right. But so how did it help? Did it help?

It did help quite a bit yeah what did the guy tell you he didn't tell me anything really were you just tripping he's like grow up get it together he slapped me on the hand a few times but being a baby we're all dying you get to a mindset when you're under the influence of that medicine yeah i do call it medicine yeah and you have to um where you uh you kind of realize that there's not a big difference between here and there you know it's kind of well one you're awake for yeah i'm assuming we're not it's the same Yeah, it's very difficult to obviously put into words. You hear that quite often.

But it helped you in that moment. It calmed me down. It calmed me down quite a bit. And it stuck. Yeah, but what I do now is the meditation to kind of integrate that experience on a daily basis, if that makes sense. Sure.

I go back there when I'm meditating and remember the experience. And that experience never leaves me. That experience of almost a spiritual understanding of what was implied by that, that there's not much difference. Yeah, it's a—Pauline talks about it a lot. It's a reboot of the system and kind of resets you. Oh, yeah? Yeah, it did quite a bit for me. Just the things that are really important to you

in your life, you realize, oh, that's, yeah, I think about that. Yeah. And it is that important, and it just kind of realigns you a bit to what's important. How long does the reboot really last, though? I find that reboots in general only last as long as to when I upload all my old shit.

It's like, clear the disc, and then it's like, well, I gotta keep this stuff. Yeah, exactly. That's where the meditation comes in for me on a daily basis. Keep the clean reboot going. Yeah, exactly. And it works? Yeah, it's worked quite a bit. So, our episode of Re Res Dogs is on Wednesday.

Yeah. I have no idea. Did you get to watch any of them? You know, I haven't watched any of them this season yet. Me neither. Yeah. Hulu kicked me off. Really?

Hey, Hulu, if you're listening, man, get me back on. Get Zom back on. Subscription. What happened? You know, you get those bundles. Oh. You lost Hulu i i lost hulu on the bundle huh it must have been because you rebooted now you're supposed to care i guess

i don't know but i was pissed off i was calling hulu so give me back my damn no you used a phone to call them yeah actually call no i i called uh uh the uh account for is, ESPN Plus, and Hulu. Okay. And they answered their phone and had customer service and all that? Yeah. We've had quite a few problems like this in the past. Oh, shit. A lot of people are getting booted off.

They said, well, do something about it. And they haven't done anything about it. I'm going to have to renew my subscription to Hulu to watch Resnod. Watch your duck. It's such a funny show. Is that the funniest role you've done, would you say, as a character? Is that guy the funniest guy?

Yeah. Right? Yeah. Because he's so uniquely funny. Yeah, it was something that I was kind of thrown into at the last minute. Really? Yeah, I kind of just said,

okay, I don't know what the fuck I'm going to do here. Let's just jump off and see what happens. And, you know, I base the character on people I grew up around and stuff, but... Oh, yeah? Yeah. It was, yeah, that wasn't my job. I was supposed to play Uncle Brownie, Sterling.

Oh, really? You were supposed to play Gary's part? Yeah, I was supposed to play Gary's part. Huh. He wrote that part for me. Sterling did. And something happened when they were shooting the pilot. One of the actors got COVID. Uh-huh.

And he called me up. I was up in Montana and hiking. And Sterling was like, Zahn, I need you a big favor from you. I'm like, what's up, Sterling? He's like, can you fly here tomorrow and do this part? And I was like, how much are you going to pay me? Yeah, no. I was happy to. I'm glad it worked out that way. I love playing big. Well, the thing is that it must have been based on that, you know,

him needing you and you going down there. They didn't know how big that character was going to be. But I imagine after you did it, they're like, no, we got to put a lot of this guy in. Yeah, Sterling's amazing. You know, I've watched him kind of grow up. Well, the first time I saw you, I think, really, and noticed was in that movie, Miko. Miko, yeah.

And I was like, holy fuck, that guy means business. That guy's scary. That was one of the only parts that I really felt fucking dirty after I got done doing. Yeah? Yeah. It took me a couple days to shake that one. It was weird. Yeah.

I mean, there was moments where I'm like spitting and beating on somebody in the alley. Yeah. Cut, now go off, and I'm like, tear coming out of my eye. It just, it was. Oh, because he had to go there, right? Yeah. So, but, I mean, that was really, I mean, if I'm recalling correctly, an incarnation of an evil spirit is the way you played it.

Yeah, exactly what it was. It was a witch, I'm pronouncing it wrong, Skanigi. Uh-huh. I think it's pronounced Skanigi and Creek. Okay. I always get that wrong. Sorry, Sterling. He'll be alright.

As long as it's among you guys. And I don't do it. I remember being on the set trying to say that word. He'd be screaming off. Because he's Creek? Creek, yeah. Creek Seminole. And you are?

Lakota. Standing Rock Sioux. Hunk Papa. Yeah, Hunk Papa. If you would, you know, most people don't understand Hunk Papa Lakota. So you say Standing Rock Sioux. Everybody knows Standing Rock. Yeah.

Everybody knows the tribe Sioux. Yeah. Which is kind of a derogatory word. Is it. Yeah. Which is kind of a derogatory word. Is it? Yeah. We were named, it's a longer word than Sioux, but it was the French and another tribe up in northern Minnesota that named us Sioux. It means something like, kind of in a journal, or something that crawls on the ground.

It's a native slang? Yeah, it's something that's like sneaky. Oh, yeah. Yeah, the tribe that, I can't remember the tribe. It's a French kind of tribe, French-French tribe. But they named us that because they didn't, you know, they kind of looked down. Like the O-U-I-X is sort of a French trip. Yeah, exactly, yeah. And sous, so it's kind of a dirty word. So that's why it get the O-U-I-X. It's sort of a French trip.

So it's kind of a dirty word. So that's why it comes from slang. Yeah, we call ourselves Lakotas. Lakotas. Yeah, there's Nakota, Dakota, and Lakota. Those are the three kotas? It's the three languages, the different types of languages within the Lakota people. Is that where Dakota comes from?

Yeah. Dakota is just a version of the language. I'm not putting in the right words. Yeah. You know, there's a dialect of the language. Yeah. They use the Ds and the Lakota use the Ls and the Nakota, which the girl on RezDocs, Alexis, is Nakota from Canada, who plays Willie Jack.

She's great. She's awesome, man. Very funny. Yeah. So where did you grow up? I grew up in Montana, Wyoming, and Nebraska. But any reservation life? Yeah. My grandparents lived in Browning, Montana, which is the Blackfeet Reservation.

They left North Dakota, the Standing Rock Reservation, in the 50s and moved up to Browning, Montana. And basically, my mom was born on the res in Fort Yates, North Dakota. And my grandfather got a job on the Blackfeet Res, he's a mechanic. So he moved his whole family from Fort Yates to Browning in the 50s. So all my aunts and uncles are still up there, my mom's brothers and sisters.

So it's a Browning Res? Yeah, they're married into the Blackfeet tribe, but they're like a family of Lakotas that live on the Blackfeet reservation. So I grew up 20 miles off the reservation. So is that unusual for multiple tribes to be sort of- No, no. I mean, not really.

They just, my dad got a, or my grandfather got a job offer and he just stayed up there. Is there that kind of tension? Is there tribal tension? Sure. I mean, there's- I guess- There's like joking in between tribes. You know, like the Pine Ridge, the Ogallala, Lakota will make jokes about the Rosebud Sioux, the Sicanju, Lakota. Right, right.

That kind of stuff. The Crees and the Blackfeet will joke around. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So there's a lot of teasing involved, but not anymore. I think the Pawnee were a rival enemy of the Lakota, and so were the Crow. But, you know, it's just more teasing and stuff like that. Right now.

Yeah. As opposed to territorial kind of. Yeah. So, I mean, what's your earliest memories of, because I can't, you know, when you watch something like Reservation Dogs, you know, as a white guy, you kind of realize, like, I have no idea how Native people live currently or any other way. I mean, like, I talked to Sterling about it. I read a book years ago called On the Res, which I thought was good, but it was written

by a white guy. Yeah, I've read that. Ian Frazier. Yeah. called On the Res, which I thought was good, but it was written by a white guy. Yeah, I've read that. Ian Frazier. Yeah.

And there was a lot of things in it that made me really appreciate that outside of whatever type of conditions the natives are living in, there is a way about life that is thoroughly unique to them. Yeah. You know? And I think Sterling captures that. He does. Very much so. You know, the humor especially. Yeah. You know, and I think Sterling captures that. He does. Very much so. You know,

the humor especially. Yeah. Which has never really been done on a TV show before. Yeah. Ever. There's so much humor involved within the culture

and people, family, just like all cultures. There's just, there's that bonding, but there's, there's a lot of joking and teasing around.

I mean, that's where, you know, shit ass comes from is is my uncle my grandma used to call me little shit ass all the time so you brought that in yeah i brought that i yes i i was improvving a scene with the kids uh the meat pie stand and um i walked off and i said, goddamn shit asses. And it just became a kind of a thing.

A running thing. Yeah. Well, I mean, all of it, the thing that I notice the most is it's the humor. It's the food. It's the way the generations respect each other. There's a spirituality that's broad and animated. Yeah. And it's completely outside of our experience. Yeah. And it's completely outside of our experience.

Yeah. And do you find, when you think back about being on the reservation when you were a kid, do you remember being awful or good? Do I personally? Yeah. You know, I had this thing where, because my dad was a washichu, which we call, that's

what we say in my language. It's not my, I mean, it's, yes, it's my language, but I don't speak it fluently. Yeah. So my language is obviously English. You know some words. It's a word from the language that is mine. He's a Washichu. He's a white guy.

Oh, he is. So, yeah, so I'm mixed. washichu he's a white guy oh he is so uh yeah so i'm mixed yeah and where's he from uh he's from denver colorado denver yeah he's an irish little irishman looks like santa claus or he was he's dead now so now did you get along with that guy yeah well he was he was pretty cool old hippie beatnik guy Oh, really? He worked at a jazz station in the 50s back in Denver. Well, Neil Cassidy was a Denver guy, I think. Neil Cassidy, he used to have Dizzy Gillespie come over for dinner. Oh, really?

I think he had, I know he met Miles. Oh, yeah? He was a jazz guy? He was a jazz guy, but became like a hippie guy. Yeah. He's actually one of the only, not only, one of the first people there at late 60s to early 60s. Yeah. To become a part of Native American Church, which is Peotie Way.

He met my mom in Denver. They took, had me and my twin brother and my older brother in Denver. And they went and lived on a commune outside of Santa Fe, New Mexico. And then my little brother was born down there. In Positas? No. Algodones? I can never remember.

It's right between Taos and Santa Fe. Mbudo. Oh, yeah. It's just a little community, uh it was a commune they took us down but not a native coming just a hippie no it was a hippie camp but they were it was partly native american church which is peyote way peyote way which is native american church is called oh but is it have something what's it got to do with peyote well that's that's the sacrament of the medicine that they use every week

um i'm not really not every week it's not like it's not like uh like they do with the uh with the with the with the wafer they might do in the uh on sundays in the catholic church no they don't sit there and eat the way here's your peyote button for your Sunday. Enjoy the next 12 hours. Yeah. It's quite a ceremony. It does last for 12 hours, but it's quite a beautiful ceremony. Now, you went up to Montana anyway.

Where are your memories at? Do you remember the commune? How old were you? I don't remember the commune. You have a twin brother and an older brother? I have an older brother and a younger brother. A twin brother, an older brother, and a younger brother. Yeah. My older brother is Rory, which is a good Irish name.

That's a great Irish name. Rory Chitamaza, which means Ironhawk. That's his middle name. Yeah. And my twin is four minutes younger than me. Four minutes. Do you hold that over him? You have no idea.

me four minutes and he hold that over him yeah you have no idea uh the things we're going through in our 50s now because of that really oh yeah oh boy you were dealing with it yeah i love him he's such a beautiful guy what's his name he's a hockey coup which means the last one to come out so you didn't do it mine was the first to come out. So you didn't do it. Mine was the first to come. Really? Yeah. And your mom did that? Yeah.

And my little brother's spotted horse, which is Tshunkagleshka, which means spotted horse. His name is Che. Uh-huh, Che. Named after Che Guevara. Okay. And now he's kind of a little bit on the right wing side. Oh, yeah?

So he's like, don't call me Che anymore. Not around these people. No, he's like, my name's Gerald Jr. And I say, okay, Che. I mean, he grew up with that name. Montana was basically my first memories. I grew up in Glacier National Park, which is 20 miles off the res. So your dad moved up there?

Yeah, to work for the National Park Service. Really? So I lived in Yellowstone for a couple of years. No kidding. Glacier National Park. I lived in Cuyahoga Valley National Recreation Area. I know a guy, my friend Dean, he was born in Yosemite. Oh, yeah.

His old man was a park driver. Yeah, it was private government schools. Their schools were like 30 people in there, just government employees. And what'd your dad do on the park? He was a trash truck driver. He started out as a trash truck driver, and he worked his way up to a contract specialist, which is like a GS-14. So he worked his ass off and made a specialist, which is like a GS-14.

So he worked his ass off and made a living, great living, and kept advancing and took care of his four boys. And your mom? My mom is program. Yeah. Oh, yeah. 30, 40, almost 40 years. Is that where it came from? Yeah.

Oh, yeah. Almost 40 years now. And she went back to the res and they stayed married or no they divorced in uh in the 90s i think so they were married for 35 40 years uh he just um he's just a little hippie you know beatnik guy yeah and and he got out had a government job so yeah he was had all those values and yeah that state of mind that way of of thinking and and working for the man you know but he was in the park yeah he was in the park he had to cut his hair actually there's one time when the park service hired him to uh there was they were bringing marijuana into yellowstone back in the 70s late 70s and uh who was uh kids they were just you know dealing

dealing to the the seasonal kids who work at work at the sure you know stores and stuff with the park seasonal park rangers yeah and they sent my dad undercover because he the way he kind of looked yeah the hair was a little bit right yeah stuff like that. But they sent him undercover because he had experience doing that stuff. Sure. Being a beatnik. Yeah. But he was an interesting, interesting human being. He didn't have the bug, though?

You know, I think he had the bug. He just was able to kind of keep it under control. Yeah. I don't know. Sure. I just remember seeing him a handful of times really really loaded yeah yeah and uh he just took care of us you know took no violence nah yeah that was something of that more more than just the yeah screaming stuff you know

on who from who your dad and both of them, boy. But they stayed together for a long time. Yeah, yeah. But my mom is, she lives in Nebraska now. And I was able to set her up quite well. That's nice. She's very comfortable. What town? Omaha.

Uh-huh. I was just in Lincoln. Were you? Yeah. Go Cornhuskers. Yeah, it was okay. I did a show there. It was pretty good.

Yeah, yeah. They were happy to have me. Yeah. Yeah. It's it was okay. I did a show there. It was pretty good. Yeah, yeah. They were happy to have me. Yeah. Yeah. It's a good place. I go back quite often. There's like 12 people in the whole state, right? That's what's weird about those big states.

When I go play them, I'm like, how many people live in this whole state? Well, Nebraska is very similar to Oklahoma. Yeah? Yeah. Probably a little, well, Tulsa's kind of liberal but omaha's a pretty liberal town is it yeah so when did you uh kind of like come come of age was it you know you how much time did you spend on the on the reservation versus the park how did that work you relatives in both places yeah the thing is you know know, being half white.

Yes. And being, you know, on the weekends, my grandparents would take care of me, babysit me, whatever. So you didn't really fit in either place, you know, that story. But was it looked down upon or judged? Sure. Who's your family? You know, you don't look, you know, it's like you don't look full native. Right.

Where are you from? Are you Mexican? But it seems like the native culture has absorbed a lot of white people. Oh, definitely. I'm talking about in the 70s. There's a little bit more racism in Montana going on, the border towns, et cetera. The natives are from the white people? From both sides.

So you're getting it from both sides. You're not one of us from both sides yeah yeah yeah so i spent uh quite a bit you know in being in my culture when i when i became of age like 13 14 years old i started uh getting more and more into my culture with ceremonies and attending ceremonies and a nipi ceremony which is a sweat lodge yeah sun dancing which is a very powerful ceremony. Did you like to do, but like your old man wasn't part of that, right? Well, he was part of Native American Church in the 60s. Oh, okay, yeah.

And he put it away because he was white and kind of said, I need to respect this and leave it to Native people for the ceremony. So you'd go with your mother's family and do the business. Yeah. to native people for the ceremony. So you'd go with your mother's family and do the business. Yeah. More, you know, when I lived in Nebraska, I started getting into, more into my culture when I was 12, 13, just going to ceremonies and stuff like that.

And my mom pointed me that way. Right. She always supported it. And you have uncles and cousins, I imagine? Got uncles and cousins. Most of them are up in Browning. My close ones are. Yeah, they're still up in Browning, Blackfeet Res.

What's the situation up there now? Like, I mean, what is it like, you know, in terms of living conditions and, you know, how does it feel? Do you know? I mean, there's a lot of community up there. But, you know, the living are it's it's in the middle of the plains in montana right right below the rocky mountains and it's cold and um you know there's not a lot of money and they've got a brand new casino up there and it's kind of become the the thing the thing the cultural does it spread the money around i don't know i don't know the

politics out there in browning you know, and how that goes. But it doesn't seem like it does. I don't know how all that works. I really don't. I've never really. But your people are relatively comfortable? My mom is comfortable. In Omaha, right.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the cousins, you know, whatever's going on. They're fine, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They're fine. So where do you go wrong? When does that start to happen or how i go wrong um when i moved to the city for the first time which city nebraska

omaha nebraska oh hard streets of omaha yeah i was like i saw out there was weird i i like had an alley behind my house i'd never seen an alley before, but I was here about alleys. Sure. I hit the streets running, man. How old were you when you got there? I was 11, 10, 10 or 11. And your whole family moved there? Yeah.

In Omaha. So that was after Browning, after Glacier Park. After Montana, after Yellowstone, after Ohio for two years. Ohio? Yeah, I lived in- What was your dad chasing in Ohio? That was a national park. They opened up a national park there called Cuyahoga Valley National Recreation Area,

which is right south of Cleveland. Beautiful, beautiful area. So we moved out there. That's actually the first time I smoked weed. Up there in Ohio? Yeah. I was like 10. I think I was fifth grade.

Can't believe that shit. Sure, sure sure what year was this 70s 79 78 there's a weird thing you know all you need is one older kid yeah but i was drawn to those kids sure man oh these guys are cool oh yeah fit right in cigarettes oh my god we everything yeah I mean it was yeah because then it was still there was still like some of those it wasn't the hippies but it was that generation

just post just rock and roll guys yeah oh yeah well WMMS home of rock and roll Cleveland yeah home of the buzzard

yeah started listening to rock music yeah man it was a great time so you get to Omaha and you hit the alley oh I hit the hit the streets running.

All the families there? So how about your brothers? They turned out all right? Everybody good? No, we all hit the streets running. Oh, yeah. The crew. Yeah, yeah, the crew.

But yeah, it was an experience. I literally grew up in the woods. Yeah. Oh, coming into the city, you mean. Yeah, coming into the city. It was just the public schools and just a brand new experience. Yeah. I loved it.

Yeah. I had fun. I was like, ah, you know, got out of those damn woods. And was there a good, was there a pretty big native population in Omaha? Yeah, Omaha's got a big, big native population. Omaha res is about 40 miles north of Omaha, so there's a lot of big, big community in Omaha. Yeah. Yeah.

So when do you start realizing how long between hitting the streets running and visit before you hit the wall and or figure out that you want to do some acting? I hit the wall pretty quick. Yeah. Literally, I was 15, I think. Oh, yeah? 15 years old when I first, my first one. Tried to get sober?

Yeah. It was a strange period. It was 82. That was when you got strung out or no no i wasn't you know smoking oh yeah just got fucked up getting busted drinking and oh i got busted a few times yeah they threw me in jail i was 15 years old oh yeah you're literally sitting in county jail i'm like this ain't you can't put him in j15 and they're scaring the shit out of me is what they're doing they They gave me an alternative.

Yeah. Go do this or you go do that. Yeah. And I took the drug rehab. Oh, you did at 15? Yeah. Wow. So it started there.

How long did you stay sober that time? A few years. Oh, yeah? Yeah. We had a really cool pocket of young people in Nebraska. Yeah in nebraska yeah it's pretty cool sure yeah we had a lot of fun and we all we all still some of my best friends uh some of them are still actually sober from that first time yeah they're all in omaha yeah that's wild that's it is crazy yeah man that's a whole story in itself somebody uh should write a book about that.

The young people in AA in the early 80s when the drug rehabs were opening up and these court systems were throwing these young kids who could be caught smoking weed in high school and throwing them in there. Yeah. And a lot of them didn't really have a problem. Sure. And now they're kind of normal people, but they base their life on that stuff that they learned. And they've taken it and they've gone other directions with it. I mean, they still are normal. Right.

They're just normal people. Right. They don't have a problem. Yeah, they never had a real problem. And also they got to experience that. Because back then it was still like just their one program, dude. Right?'t have a problem. Yeah, they never had a real problem. And also they got to experience that. Because back then it was still just their one program, dude. Right? Just one program.

That was it. So you had to deal with these old AA assholes that didn't even want you talking about drugs. I know, right? Right? Yeah, they didn't. I spilled more than you drank. All that shit. We used to go to conferences and stuff all over the country, young people's conferences.

Oh, you locked in. We locked in for a few years there. And we went to Founders Day and met Lois. Was that Bill's wife? Bill's wife. Wow, you did the whole thing. The whole thing. The whole fan club.

Went to the 50th anniversary. I didn't go. I didn't make it. I stayed in Ohio to hang out with some friends. But all my buddies went up to the 50th anniversary in, I think it was in Montreal. Oh, really? Yeah. Because didn't it start in Ohio?

Yeah, it started in Akron, Ohio. Yeah, Akron, yeah. So, what, did you start doing any acting in that time? No. No. What took you back out? Girls. That's it uh just being young because you're 18 yeah i was 18 years old when i went went back out

and uh tried some having some fun i had a blast you know i was just young yeah yeah i mean and still in omaha still in omaha but ended up down in uh phoenix and then uh into la in the late 80s how'd you end up in phoenix i went to school down there to um what happened was i was i went back out then i got sober again and said i wanted to do something with my life and i went down to phoenix arizona to go to a electrical school and live with my aunt down there and and fell off again and kind of woke up in los angeles so that's kind of the act yeah the acting bug started so did your brothers get clean yeah yeah and they all got they're all doing all right they're doing great man that's great great yeah yeah it's kind of fucking wild, right? Yeah.

So you're in Phoenix going to electrical school, and you just end up in L.A. Yeah, I kind of fell off again a little bit. Yeah? Yeah. A little? Yeah, a little bit. And I kind of woke up in Los Angeles in the 86, I think was the first time. Oh, my God.

That's when I was here. Yeah. At the comedy store. Yeah, Guns N' Roses. Yeah, Sunset Boulevard. Sunset Boulevard. It was crazy. That's when I was here. Yeah. At the comedy store. Yeah, Guns N' Roses. Yeah, Sunset Boulevard. Sunset Boulevard. It was crazy. That's where you ended up?

Yeah. Where were you living? I lived in my car in Wilcox and Hollywood Boulevard. Oh, so you just drove out here and you're like, fuck it? Ended up staying with people, met a girl here, ended up living with her. Really? Yeah. But did you have a plan

no no plan at all you were just going to see rock shows going to see rock shows hanging out in the scene because that scene up there on Sunset and the Roxy and all those places

that was pretty crazy up there it was crazy yeah it's a lot of fun it was a pretty unique time I mean you know Sunset Boulevard in the 60s

was pretty magnificent in the 80s with the hair metal hair metal yeah it was a lot of fun we had good times

you don't play an instrument do you? I play guitar you do? yeah a little bit I mean I I played more when I was

back out there doing my thing so what are you just hanging around doing blow and shit? yeah but I did blow a different way i didn't do it up the nose right yeah oh so it was a special club you weren't sharing it with many people it's a solitary endeavor yeah right no hanging around in bathrooms with three guys with ties. Yeah, right. You're on your own, man. Yeah, no.

Was it speed balls? Yeah, you know, all kinds of stuff, man. I was pretty far into it. So, but during that time, you didn't really have a plan? You were just, you know, hanging out? Were you working? No, at that time, I wasn't even thinking about acting. All I was thinking about was having fun.

Yeah, doing drugs. Yeah, so I went back to Nebraska eventually in uh 89 all skinny and fucked up skinny and and uh I had a car that literally had a dead battery and I got to Denver Colorado and I'd have to push start it every day to get it going you have to put a little and you're running away yeah I'm going back to nebraska to get my head straight and i stopped in denver i saw a cousin of mine he goes he goes your battery doesn't work yeah i said i know that just give me a push man i'll just i got back to nebraska and uh you know i got clean again and uh up in Nebraska. And that stuck? No. No, but that's when I got the acting bug. But you felt good for a little while.

Yeah, a couple of years. I was good. I did some local theater in Nebraska. Really? Yeah, audition. Audition for Jesus Christ Superstar. So you clean up, you're a few months clean.

Yeah, I was looking in the paper. I love Jesus Christ Superstar. It's, so, okay, so you clean up, you're a few months clean. Yeah, I was like looking in the paper, I love Jesus Christ Superstar. It's one of my favorite albums ever. Oh, yeah. And my dad turned me on to it when I was just a little kid. And I knew every song and every lyric. Oh, really? Dug into your brain. Yeah, I did.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm not Christian. Good songs, though. Yeah, great songs. You know what I mean? What was it, Tim Rice? You don't have to be Christian to love Jesus Christ Superstar. I'm not Christian but good songs though yeah great songs you know what I mean what was it Tim Rice

you don't have to be Christian to love Jesus Christ yeah Ted Neely oh Ted Neely with Jesus so you had the

you had the movie soundtrack that your dad yeah it was Ian Gillen Deep Purple saying

Jesus Ted Neely did the Broadway and he's still doing it actually to to this day is he yeah i met him uh i met ted neely and and uh the lemley's theater it's got to be 70 something he is yeah and he's still kicking out those songs doing jesus yeah he's unbelievable he's done shows in like italy and europe that's almost a religious suspension of disbelief. To have Ted Neely playing Jesus.

Yeah, he's still doing it, man. He's just, you know, it's kind of instead of dun-da-dun-da-dun-da-dun, he's more dun-da-dun-da-dun. Oh, sure. Slow it down. Take it down an octave, maybe. No, he's still kicking out those screams. Oh, yeah? Anyway, we- What'd you play?

I was an apostle, man. Oh, yeah? Anyway, we- What'd you play? I was an apostle, man. Listen, I saw an ad in the paper. They were doing the play at a local community theater across the river in Council Bluffs, Iowa. And I said, I'm going to go audition for this thing. Why not?

I can't sing a lick. I can't sing at all. Yeah. And I went, and I auditioned. I had to sing a song. I did King Herod's song. Yeah. And I went and I auditioned. I had to sing a song. I did King Herod's song. Yeah. I love that.

So if you are the Christ, you're the great Jesus Christ. Prove to me that you're no fool. Walk across my swimming pool. So I went and did that. And they needed a brown person in the cast. I had long hair. I was the only brown person in the cast. I had long hair. Even it out. I was the only brown kid in the whole cast.

We're not gonna give you a lead, but we're gonna allow you to play in the choir and in the chorus and be an apostle. Represent, go represent. Yeah, and I fell in love with it, man. I was like, wow, this is fun. The rehearsal process. Being in front of people, oh yeah, yeah.

And meeting the people and the camaraderie in the community. And then getting up on stage in front of an audience. It was, I enjoyed it. It was fun. And I just started doing local commercials. Oh, yeah? In Nebraska. They had a local kind of casting agent?

They did. Yeah. You know, John Jackson, John Durbin, who's an actor. He lived in L.A. And he moved back to Nebraska to do that. Yeah. He got me into it and he introduced me to my first agent in L.A. when I moved out to Los Angeles. When you moved back.

Yeah, in 90. So what's that guy doing now, that Jackson guy? John, he, you know, he, what's the guy from Omaha, the guy who did, great filmmaker. I can, I'm so bad. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Jim and. He did'm so bad oh yeah yeah yeah yeah jim and uh uh he did nebraska yeah yeah yeah he used to work with jim taylor oh he's a he's a great filmmaker great writer he wrote the i know yeah he's got great movies yeah he's he's his casting director uh it's gonna drive me nuts because i you know i know the guy uh and i and I knew his writing partner. He did Election?

Yeah, he did all of them. Alexander Payne. Alexander. So let me do that like I just remembered. Alexander Payne. Right, yeah, Alexander Payne, exactly. Alexander Payne, so John Durbin or John Jackson does cast all of Alexander's movies and stuff. And he's still acting as well.

Oh, yeah. and does, casts all of Alexander's movies and stuff. And he's still acting as well. Oh, yeah. I used to know his writing partner on Election and on a couple other, a guy named Jim Taylor. He used to write with Payne. Yeah, yeah. But I don't know. He used to be married to Sandra Oh, right? Alexander Payne did.

Great movies. He's brilliant. I think he's brilliant. Dude, that, you know, the one with... The family in Hawaii with Clooney of the descendants descendants was great amazing Yeah, but also the sideways is that what it's called was holy yeah, that's what that was with Sandro Yeah, it's I can watch that movie over and over. Yeah. Yeah the wine the wine scene since you know When he takes the spit on the where he's just like he finds out that they're not going to make his book.

He just drinks all that spit out of that fucking, just the shame, just bathing in the shame. Gia Amati is brilliant. Yeah, so that's where you got it, doing commercials. Commercials, and I came out to back out to L.A. What kind of commercials did they make you do? I did local community college commercials. Oh, okay. Did they make you do?

I did local community college commercials. Oh, okay. I did one for a medical, the University of Omaha Medical School construction worker. Did you have the long hair the whole time? I did. Yeah. So they knew what they were getting. Yeah, exactly.

And then I came back out to L.A. because I had lived here before and I knew some people. And I got on the plane with $200 on my pocket. Yeah, right, you knew some people that you could say, no, man, I'm not doing that right now. No, I was like in and out in LA. Oh, yeah. So I knew... Right, right, both. Yeah, both.

So I knew I had support. Got the clean people and the dirty people. I had some support out here. Oh, good, good. So I got out here and got some support for a couple years and hit the road again. No shit. For about 10 years yeah

but we but you're working during that time i was so all right so you get out here you got representation you got representation which is the difficult thing to do yeah and are you still with them no oh but so you had representation so you're going out now what what's the experience i mean is it sort of like uh we need a native guy yeah pretty much dances with wolves came out so uh we had a thing out here called the american indian registry of performing arts yeah so it's a group of natives from all over the country moved out here to los angeles to pursue acting uh-huh and we had a registry and everybody would i was on hollywood and highland we'd all get together and we'd have acting classes.

Really? You know, the casting people would come to this registry looking for native talent. Really? So you were able to take some classes? Yeah, some classes. There? Was that the first time you did it? Yeah, basically, yeah.

And then I started studying with multiple different teachers. Oh, yeah? For the last 30 years. Oh, so tell me about this, what would you call it, an organization? Yeah, it was just a, it was called the American Indian Registry of Performing Arts.

No. So that was in the 80s? That was in the early 90s. Late 80s, early 90s. Will Sampson, Wes Studi. Wes Studi. Yeah, these are the people that, you know, I kind of came to LA.

Not Will Will but Wes Gary Farmer yeah you know all these guys were starting off in the early 90s

so who else now who was the guy who was that guy who was in Dances with Wolves Rodney Grant yeah what happened to that guy

Rodney lives up in Northern California yeah married to a tribal member up there. Oh, yeah? Yeah. He plays golf.

Oh, yeah. So how many people would you say was in the registry? There was probably a few hundred. No kidding. Yeah. I mean, a lot of them weren't living in Los Angeles at the time, but they would be contacted. They have their picture and their resume and the publication. Sure.

The casting could look at them. But there's something so, there's still something kind of awful about the idea that you've got executives going like, well, we need, we're going to need. Yeah. We need a few natives. Yeah. And we'll just go down to the. The registry. Go through the book. Right.

Go through the book of Fonda. Yeah. No, I hear you. Right. Go through the book of Fonda. Yeah. No, I hear you. But what are you going to do? Now we have native casting directors and we have, well, yeah, we do actually have native casting directors. Angelique Midthunder's assistant is native. You know Angelique.

I can't tell you what a thrill it was for me to be on that set. Yeah. Because I could feel the excitement of everyone. Yeah. Like it was almost part of history. It is, pretty much. I mean, we've never had a TV show. But directors, writers, producers, all native. And you have to give FX credit for taking a risk.

Sure, yeah. And saying, Sterling, go do your thing, you know? It was a real thrill. I felt honored, you know? And you could just feel this excitement. Yeah. Where it's almost like, you know, it is the electricity of actual representation, right? Yeah, from top to bottom.

Right. Except the network. Well, it's never going to happen. No, yeah. Still got all the white guys at the network. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, and it's a great time, Mark. It really is for everybody.

Yeah, so what do the first roles, dude? What are you doing? TV? The native yelling on the horse kind of stuff. Native number one sitting by the teepee. Yeah. And I was playing, because I look Latino, I played a bunch of gang member parts on The Shield and stuff like that.

And you liked it? Yeah, it was work, man. I was working, and I was paying my bills. And then the drugs just crept back in? Crept back in. And you kept a habit for a decade? For about a decade. Finally, it got to a point where I couldn't do anything.

Oh, really? Yeah. Just hold up in the house? Called the agent and said, don't send me on anything where I couldn't do anything. Oh, really? Yeah. Just hold up in the house? Called the agent and said, don't send me on anything. I don't look good. I mean, we all got war stories, man. I got some good ones. Yeah.

Yeah. So you had to pull out and clean up again? I did. Yeah, I finally did. Did you go back to Nebraska again? No, I stayed here. Oh, you did? I really didn't think I was going to be able to do that.

But I was able to do it with, you know, I just locked myself into the whole thing. Oh, you didn't check in again? Oh, of course, I checked in, but for the initial detox. Was that the first time you got strung out for real, though? Like, in a sense, where you're like, fuck, now I gotta get out from under this. I gotta do the physical withdrawal and all that shit. Yeah, yeah.

The opiates were a motherfucker. Oh, my God. Still killing everybody. Yeah, now. Definitely. I mean, they did then, but... You got out. We got out early. I agree. Dude, any pill, you don't know. Yeah, definitely. I mean, they did then, but. You got out. So now. We got out early. I agree. Dude, you can just, you know, any pill.

Yeah. You don't know. You know, I love his, we both know Jerry. Oh, yeah. I just had him on, yeah. Permanent Midnight. Yeah. Yeah, that was it.

That was what I was doing. Oh, yeah. But did you know him when you were out? No, I met Jerry. In? Not even in. I met him at the gym. Oh, over at the Hollywood Y? Yeah, at the Hollywood Y.

I knew who he was. I read every book he's ever written. Yeah. I'm reading 999 right now. Yeah, that's good. Yeah. Yeah, it's funny. I had him on here for that.

He's amazing. That guy is so talented. It's unbelievable. He's great. Yeah, I was just texting with him. I don't on here for that. He's amazing. That guy is so talented. It's unbelievable. He's great. I was just texting with him. I don't know where I'd be without that guy. He's been a real sober guidepost for me.

There's always one guy in your corner that's like, that's the guy. He's my guy. It's like nothing I can't talk to him about. Yeah. I would love to work with Jerry one day. I really would. Yeah. Hopefully it'll happen.

Yeah. Came close. With just that last thing? Yeah. Is that love to work with Jerry one day. I really would. Yeah. Hopefully it'll happen. Yeah. Came close. With just that last thing? Yeah. Is that show still going? Yeah, we got a second season. What's it called? It's called Dark Winds.

It's on AMC. You're working a lot. Yeah. Things are good. Was there ever a time where you had, because you talk talked to i talked to people from different ethnic backgrounds and there's always this sort of like you know the feeling of being of limitations and typecasting sure was there a point where you push back on that um yeah in the last probably 10 years yeah i've been kind of pushing back on it a little bit i i'd rather stay away from feathers and leathers we call it yeah yeah but you know i mean if kevin costner called me i'd probably get go back on that horse but uh

literally yeah i mean i i didathers and Leathers on Westworld, but it was such a different kind of character that I did on Westworld. First off, he's a robot. Sure. It was like an image of what these people who made Westworld thought a savage native was kind of thing. Then you realize he's not, and he's a robot, and he's anyway. Did a lot of thing. Then you realize he's not and he's a robot and he's anyway.

Did a lot of those. Stuff like that. I mean, something unique like that but a typical kind of old western. Yeah. You know,

I'd rather do contemporary. Yeah, sure. Jobs. I thought like, for me, like when I first saw, I thought Pow Wow Highway was a good movie.

Oh, it was a great movie. Yeah. Yeah. That was the one that kind of like, for me, like, when I first saw it, I thought Pow Wow Highway was a good movie. Oh, it was a great movie, man. Yeah. Yeah. That was the one that kind of, like, that was what I talked to Sterling about that, too, where I realized, like, there's this whole world that we just are not, you know, in. Yeah. Yeah. Gary Farmer and A. Martinez. Yeah.

Yeah, it was a great film. Martinez. Yeah? Yeah, it was a great film. As well as, you know, I liked Thunderheart as well when it first came out, which was a John Fusco film. Graham Greene. Oh, yeah?

Val Kilmer. What was the reaction to the wolves? I mean, there's a mixed reaction. What's it called? Dances with Wolves. Yeah, yeah. I mean, Costner's a good filmmaker. Yeah? And, yeah, I think he is.

I think he's extremely talented. Sure, sure. But, you know, a lot of people thought it was a white savior movie. Oh, right. Because I think, yeah, that's right, because we mocked it in the episode of... Yeah. But this is the first time you actually saw natives speaking a language throughout the whole movie yeah uh which was uh the lakota language yeah and um so they it broke it broke down a lot of barriers so i try to always look

at it yeah from that positive got me in the business yeah you know oh really you're like we can do it yeah i first moved out here dances came out and i was like hmm i think doors are gonna open up for everybody and they did for a came out, and I was like, hmm, I think doors are going to open up for everybody. And they did for a lot of us. And what was the Longmire show? Longmire was an A&E show we did for three seasons. Then Netflix picked it up for another three seasons. Just basically kind of a contemporary Western share based on Craig Johnson's johnson's books called long mile oh yeah

which he's a wyoming looks like that had a good run it did six seasons it was a great show great people to to work with craig johnson's an amazing writer uh it's kind of similar to dark winds a little bit yeah dark winds is based on tony hillermanerman books about two Navajo cops. And Longwear was based on a kind of a western setting, Wyoming. Yeah. And we shot that down in Santa Fe for six seasons. And you did the Fargos? I did the second season of Fargo. Yeah.

Worked with Noah Hawley, which was amazing. Yeah? Yeah. You don't know what you're going to get. You know, you're getting each script, each episode, and you wonder if you're going to die or not, and you have no idea where Noah's going to take this season. And he ended up taking the character quite far, and it kind of was a breakout character for me, too. And I started working constantly after that show, so. Yeah? Yeah, I haven't stopped. And you love it.

Oh. Yeah. Yeah. after that show so yeah yeah i haven't stopped and you love it oh yeah yeah yeah no i do mark i mean you know i'm i'm getting up there and you know i'm kind of trying to figure out what i want to do for the rest of my life me too dude yeah i know literally trying to figure out what what do i want to do for the rest of my life how do i want to spend the next 20 years we're walking up here talking about getting out of California for different reasons I know right I'm afraid that there's

going to be a water panic and everyone's going to be killing each other over you know water and you're like I just want to pay taxes Jesus the taxes are crazy here

yeah I mean I never really looked into it until recently and realized how high they really are you know yeah I don't know man i how old do

you talk do you say um somewhere up there yeah i'm i'm i'm gonna be 59 this month i'm 55. yeah and uh it i just started six next in october i officially started looking old i think about a year ago yeah like i just started like oh you notice it yeah that hair is going yeah i've i felt i feel old i i it's more noticeable now you know that hair is going yeah i've i felt i feel old i i it's more noticeable now you know there's one day when i woke up and it's like yeah you're old now fuck i'm not dead day mortality's right there man yeah that's how we started yeah the mortality thing i you know i the the way i think about it more than anything else is sort of like well i gotta get rid of all this shit i got a of like, well, I got to get rid of all this shit.

I got a lot of shit. Someone's going to have to get rid of it. Yeah, yeah. No, I hear you. There's people with more shit than me. It's funny because my buddy's going through the same thing. I'm going through the same thing, too. I've literally got stuff that I can just,

it would take me a few days. Yeah. Everything I own could go in the garbage. Yeah, right. My computer. Yeah. I got one old guitar some pictures on the wall that's about it that's all that's what you got yeah you got everything no i got a lot of shit but that's what you need right yeah i it's just like there's a weird thing because like part of me sort of like we'll have someone come over here and sell it or you know

give it away or i don't know what you do with this stuff, but I don't like throwing things away. Then where would you go, though? I'm thinking, I know where I'm going, dude. If I live and I hold on to the money, I'm going to fucking Vancouver, dude. Are you really? Fuck yeah. Canada. Yes.

Have you lived up there? No. It rains a lot up there, there man I don't give a fuck it's beautiful up there man I was just in Tofino for four days where's Tofino at it's on Vancouver Island

oh okay it's beautiful you got yeah is that where you want to end up well yeah I'm trying to I'm trying to work it out

because I don't think anything's gonna get any better here and you're talking about the fucking water stuff this is water but the Well, yeah, I'm trying to work it out because I don't think anything's going to get any better here. You're talking about the fucking water stuff. This is water. You just want to move it up there because it's beautiful. Oh, no. Water and fascism.

Those are big problems that we're heading into. I know how to get over that border because I lived on that border. I'm going to try and do it legally. I know. You know the tunnel? I know the trails, bro. Let's go. I lived right on the border for 10 years.

In which state? Outside of Browning, Montana. Oh, that's right there? Yeah, it's literally 20 miles from the border. And you can just get around the guard post? Yeah.

Nice ways. They catch you now, though. I know, right? If you got your phone on you they're gonna track you i know right they'll probably track me after they listen to your podcast that's the guy i know that's him but uh no i mean i here's what i'm thinking i'd like to find a place a city in the states that's comfortable and has water and uh you know the thing is like because i do this show you know i'm sort of tethered to because i like to talk to people in person and this is where people come through so as long as i am doing this yeah it's gonna

have to be you know new york or la or i'm gonna have to do a lot of you know zoom stuff which i don't love doing i think it's better yeah so within but you know two and a half years or between two and three years from now if i start thinking ahead like there's little smaller cities that i have found appealing i mean it's easier for you dude i mean you don't have to do anything out of your garage and you can fly places yeah what are you thinking i don't know i'm thinking um i've gone up to Montana, looked around. Oh, yeah. And Wyoming has no state tax.

No people either. It's perfect. No income tax. No. Yeah, it's very small. Santa Fe is beautiful. I spend a lot of time in Santa Fe. The water is not going to last there.

I don't think it's going to happen in our lifetime, brother. I don't know. How many pictures of a half-empty Lake Mead do we have to see? They're going to be like, found another body. So what happens if it... Good question. I don't think anyone knows. I just know they're not going to tell us until the day before.

Yeah, right. This is not a water restriction. Do not use your water. Because bad shit will come out of the faucet. I grew up in New Mexico. I thought about New Mexico a lot. That's right. I was looking out there in Cerritos between Albuquerque and Santa Fe.

Looked at a little place where I drove a mile and a half off the 14, you know, into this beautiful little pocket. Yeah. You know, and I stood out there on the porch of this little house with no cell reception. Yeah. And just listened to the silence. And I thought, this is amazing. Yeah. And about three minutes later, I'm like, I can't fucking live here.

How far am I from a supermarket? Where am I going to go for coffee? I can't like that, too, man. I really, really. It's just good. What are you going to do? Just sitting out there by to go for coffee? I get like that too, man. What are you going to do? Just sitting out there by yourself? You know, like going like, what? What do you do?

Convenience, you know? Yeah, you can't go up to the coffee shop and- I just like going to supermarkets. Yeah. No, I hear you. It's a beautiful area though, Sirius. Sure. It's great. You know, if you can live like that.

It's a little hippie town there. Madrid? Madrid. It's all right. Yeah. Madrid. A little creepy. Madrid. It's Madrid, yeah. serios and sure it's great you know if you can live like that hippie town there madrid madrid it's all right yeah madrid a little creepy madrid madrid yeah don't call it madrid it's a ghost town yeah but it's a yeah well so is uh serios i think is a little mining town yeah but uh but like i was just in pittsburgh and i this is nice yeah when was the last time you were in pittsburgh i haven't been in pittsburgh ever it's. I live right there in Ohio, too. Beautiful little city.

Yeah. And it's kind of coming, I think there's a new life to it, and it's kind of stunning. It's an old-ass city. Yeah. It's got water, bridges, hills, you know, nice houses, shitty houses. Yeah, there's a lot of, you know, a lot of people are moving out of New York and out of California. Tulsa? Tulsa? Tulsa?

I don't know. Tulsa reminds me of Omaha quite a bit. It's great, but you start to realize, okay, I've just walked the four blocks, and I'm no longer in the city. But you're in the thick of Los Angeles. How many times a week do you actually leave the house, Mark? I go out. Do you go out a lot? Well, I go do comedy.

I thank God for the comedy store. I'll go do it every night. Oh, you do? Yeah. And then I go out around here and I'm going to go to Highland Park today. I forget why.

I have a reason. What do I got to pick up? Does the traffic get on you? Dude, I won't go to the West Side. Yeah. I'm not going. I wouldn't even take a meeting.

Santa Monica, where? I'm not going to Sony in Culver City. It's like another fucking planet. I have to let that role go. Yeah. Yeah, you're going to have to give that role to somebody else. I'm not going to make it over to the West Side

at four in the afternoon. Oh, yeah. Back in the day when we're really hustling and going to three or four auditions a week and you go hit those commercial auditions out in Santa Monica and you're like, oh, it's Friday. It's four o'clock. It's my whole day.

And you're fucking stuck in there. Got to bring a tent. It's gridlock. It's the worst. Yeah. I didn't do a lot of that, but I just remember going, you know, it's always sort of like, yeah, we're going to do a general meeting at four in Santa Monica. Four in the afternoon?

I'd rather you schedule one for 7 in the morning and I'll leave at 4 in the morning. And then at least I'll have a whole day to get back. Yeah. So, yeah, I thought Pittsburgh. I like Tulsa. I don't think Texas is my thing. But I think I would go with the New Mexico dream. But you kind of have it still, the Santa Fe?

A little bit. I mean, I spend so much time down there. I just got back from there. I go back on Friday for a birthday. And then I go back late September for four months. For what? Dark winds. Oh, that's where they shoot it?

Yeah. So I'm down there all the time. People buy houses down there all the time when they're down there all the time. Yeah. I'm thinking maybe getting something down there. Santa fe but not albuquerque no yeah i grew up in albuquerque i don't live in albuquerque i guess people don't really love that but it's weird because i had this idea that's sort of like i'm gonna go home yeah i went through all my the life changes there you know i was there from second grade through high school yeah and like i kept going back because

my old man's there and he's losing his mind, but I go visit. And I kept thinking, yeah, it's going to be all right. And every time I'm there, I'm like, I don't fucking even leave the hotel. I go eat two Mexican meals, and then I'm like, what the fuck am I going to do here? Right? You're stuck in L.A., brother.

Am I? For at least two years. No, I think you're here for good, man. What are you going to do, Mark? I mean, L.A. is great. You're you going to do, Mark? I mean, LA's great. You're not going to run out of water. Not in Los Angeles. Do you have a source on this? You're just saying that with confidence because you believe the illusion.

Yeah, right? I don't know, man. But maybe Pacific Northwest, maybe. I don't know, man. I don't know man I don't know but I with in terms of the getting older thing I do know that I would like to not work and I and people are like you could not work I'm like I'm not sure that's true I would like to go somewhere and just enjoy peace of mind but people go isn't that an inside job like I don't know if I if I could successfully pull my brain out of this race, out of the competition, out of the proving the ego-driven shit, I guess that's a big trick, isn't it?

That's a big one, man. Yeah. Struggle with that one every day, you know? How bored would I be if I went fishing next year? You know? We need to buy all the stuff. Yeah, get all the stuff. Get out on the boat.

Get out on the boat. The bass boat. Fly rod. You got the vest. The vest. Yeah, with the stuff. Yeah. Got your flies.

If you can start tying your own flies, that'll eat up a couple hours. Yeah. Are you that guy? Are you the guy? Are you the fly guy? I would learn, yes. It's actually a lot of fun. It really is. You've i don't know i fish yeah i've done some fly fishing i've fished when i was younger a lot

that's how i got sober one of the first times was i went fishing every day yeah yeah bass fishing that sounds like a movie it's kind of like Runs Through It? Was that the fly fishing movie? Except it's just a guy sweating. It kept me away from it, you know? I don't know. Again, we're trying to figure out what we want to do for the rest of our lives, you know? It's hard for me. I don't even really know what makes me happy, to be honest with you. I do kind of.

I like to play guitar i like to cook i i but i'm just really sort of like accepting that stuff like this is what you know these are the things that i find some joy in do you have those things i do oh good yeah are any of them healthy uh yeah oh good yeah they're healthy i uh i had to drop out of i played racquetball for years oh yeah really got off on that you know for 20 years fast game yeah it's very fast game kept in shape and all that but um i had to drop off that a little bit because of health reasons but uh um yeah i own motorcycles i love yeah i love taking off and driving the bike out i'll take off long distance and i'll do uh a month on the road oh yeah on the motorcycle and

and camp can't no hotels for me i've done that i i have camped. But, you know, it's like... Why? Why not? What am I sitting in this tent for? I could be in a hotel

watching CNN or something. What kind of bikes you got? I just got rid of two of them, but I have... They're all Harley Davidsons. Yeah.

Yeah. That's cool. Harley. Yeah, you got it. Brother. Yeah. You'll wear the leather and feathers on the bike. Just the Yeah, you got it. Brother. Yeah. Got it, brother. Harley. So you'll wear the leather and feathers on the bike.

Just the leathers. No feathers. No feathers. No feathers. Just the leathers. All right. Yeah. Good talking to you, man.

You too, man. There you go. That was me and Zahn McLaren. You can watch seasons one and two of Reservation Dogs on Hulu. And I'd also, if you could, like you to hang out for a second. Thanks. It's hockey season and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So, no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice? Yes, we deliver those. Gold tenders, no. But chicken

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on some recent episodes have expired. And this week, we're posting the latest Ask Mark Anything. We got a lot of great new questions, plenty of stuff I've never been asked before. And we'll post that on Tuesday. Go to the episode description on your podcast app and click on the link to subscribe or go to WTFpod.com and click WTF Plus. And once again, I'll be in London doing a live WTF at the Bloomsbury Theatre on Wednesday, October 19th

with comedian and writer David Baddiel. Tickets for that are on sale now. My stand-up shows at the Bloomsbury are on Saturday and Sunday, October 22nd and 23rd. I believe they're sold out, but you can check. Dublin, Ireland, I'm at Vicar Street on Wednesday, October 26th. Oklahoma City, I'm at the Tower Theater on Wednesday, November 2nd. I'm in Dallas, Texas at the Majestic Theater on Thursday, November 3rd. San Antonio at the Tobin Center for the Performing Arts for two shows on Friday, November 4th. And Houston at the Cullen Theater at Wortham Center on Saturday, November 5th. I'm in Long Beach, California at the Carpenter Performing Arts Center on Saturday, November 12th.

Eugene, Oregon at the Holt Center for the Performing Arts on Friday, November 18th. And Bend, Oregon at the Tower Theater on Saturday, November 19th. In December, I'm in Asheville, North Carolina at the Orange Peel for two shows on Friday, December 2nd. And then Nashville, Tennessee, I'm at the James K. Polk Center on Saturday, December 3rd. And my HBO special taping is at Town Hall in New York City on Thursday, December 8th. Go to wtfpod.com slash tour for all dates and ticket info. Whoo. All right.

Let's play some guitar. Thank you. guitar solo Thank you. Thank you. boomer lives monkey and lafonda cat angels are everywhere Boomer lives. Monkey and Lafonda cat angels are everywhere.