WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1377 - Jeremy Strong

Episode Date: October 24, 2022

Jeremy Strong can’t help being honest. His honesty around his job as an actor is what leads to magazine profiles where he’s portrayed as “intense” and “serious.” His honesty also allows him to admit that he was afraid to do this interview. Marc embraces both that honesty and that fear in this conversation with Jeremy about acting, Succession, finding joy, being an empty vessel, being in service to others, Daniel Day-Lewis, Al Pacino and the new film Armageddon Time. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fuck, Knicks? What's happening? I'm Marc Maron. Broadcasting from London, England. Still, long trip. This has been a long trip.

Don't love it. I love England. I love London. Don't love the long trip. I went to the Tate, as I told you on Monday, and I've eaten some good food, and I've actually, I'm just amazed at how much of my social life

and how much of my social life and how much of my engagement revolves around conversations I have for the podcast. Like today, I talked to Jeremy Strong. You guys know Jeremy Strong. He is Kendall Roy on Succession. He's in the new film Armageddon Time with Anthony Hopkins, Anne Hathaway, and Jessica Chastain. And, you know, he's an intense cat, earnest cat, real actor guy, into the process, likes talking about the process, has a process, is an artist. And it was good to talk to him. I didn't record that here in England, but he's been very much a friend to me as I travel to England. He has a lot of experience here in London. He's given me restaurants to go to. He's given me suggestions.

He introduced me to a friend of his who I have lunch with. And, you know, that was nice. It's nice if I get out and do things with people. I just find that the one thing that happens to me, especially if I'm alone in another land, is that I just, I feel like I'm my own planet and I feel like it's not quite in orbit with the rest of it. And it's a, it's a strange, awkward, lonely feeling. I'm not that social a person in the sense of like, I don't know how to make fun for myself. Really? I go do the things and I generally have a good time, but I don't, I'm not a fun generator. I don't know if you guys knew that about me. I just, I'm definitely not someone, someone would call it. Well, that guy's a, he's a fun guy. That Mark Maron's a fun guy. But I was

trying to track it, you know, I was trying to track it, you know, because I remember like when I was a kid, like a little kid, when my parents would go away on trips, I would completely lose it. I would fall apart. I wouldn't even know how to handle it. I just assumed and I thought that they would die, usually in a plane crash. And I would picture the plane crash over and over again. And to the point where I would become physically ill. This is like before I was 10 years old. And maybe that panic for myself of being away from what I know or the patterns of life I'm used to just caused me to just kind of, there's a fundamental stress

to it, or not even a stress, just an untetheredness, being not grounded. I guess I need routine, but I don't experience this in the States, really. I used to feel kind of estranged from reality when I travel on the road, but I don't, I don't really anymore. I kind of welcome it. It's like, if I can go home in a few days, I'm, I feel pretty good and I, and I'm okay. And I can enjoy going to other States and enjoy the things that they have to offer and doing comedy there. But when I'm away like this across an ocean flying over water too, it's just sort of like, I just, my brain just, uh, yeah, I just kind of, there's just a little bit of a churning that goes on. It's kind of hard to stop it. And, uh, you

know, like I miss a kid. I miss the cats. I miss the routine. I miss, you know, uh, my house. It just, it's long and I've got to get used to it because I might have to go away for longer amounts of time if I want to do a movie or if I want to live in another country. I have to figure out how not to latch on to worry. I just assume something awful is going to happen to the people and animals in my life

and I won't be around for it and my brain locks onto it. My brain lately just spends a lot of time reacting to things it's generating against my will, not great things. And, you know, I have to, I have to, you know, kind of step in and stop it and get into the fucking present. I guess it's just anxiety. I guess that's what it is.

But it doesn't really quite explain my feeling of alienation when I'm away or in a different country. This psychological, emotional, and physical sense of alienation. I don't really know what it is. It's an odd loneliness. And it's a bit debilitating in terms of enjoying myself or getting out and about. But the work has been great. I'm recording this Sunday and the show last night at the Bloomsbury was, what a great space. 500 seats, the perfect amount, beautiful sound in there. The woman who opened for me was excellent. Her name is Anya Magliano.

Very funny. That worked out. I'm going again tonight, which will be last night by the time you hear this. And the things that I've done here in terms of work have been amazing. I do love my gig. I've been loving doing the comedy and I like, love talking to people because I really never know what's going to happen. I did that live podcast with David Baddiel, which went very well. I did talks with Armando Iannucci, which was great, fun.

I spoke to him the day the prime minister resigned. I talked to Rob Delaney, which was heavy, about his new book and the loss of his child. I had Courtney Love over and we talked. It's all been pretty intense, but they were all very exciting conversations and I'm excited for you to hear them. And now, like, you know, today I go to Ireland. What I've noticed about being here in London is that I don't want to move here. Generally, as those of you who listened to me over the years,

recently anyways, everywhere I go, I seem to want to live, whether it's Tulsa or Pittsburgh or Ireland or Canada. But I've checked quite a few off the list, and I don't feel like I want to live in London, though it is an amazing city. Just the layers of fucking history. After being in New York and then here, these are two of the great cities in the world, but London, it's just layers and layers of history, like all the way back to ancient Rome, for fuck's sake. And you can feel it, man. I mean, you can feel it.

The way the city is sort of laid out is kind of a mess. All the buildings are like, you know, some of them are like twice as old, if not more than the ones that, you know, this goes back to pre-Christ, I guess, underneath all this stuff. I guess when they were building this new tube line, the Elizabeth line,

that they found all these pieces of Roman wall, plague pits. I got to watch this documentary someone told me about yesterday. But I do appreciate the depth of the history here. I mean, New York's got it too, but not quite the same. London is totally unique and pretty spectacular. But I am going to Ireland. I'll be in Dublin for a couple of days. And, you know, I did want to live there for a long time until I realized that that loneliness I was telling you about, even in the most beautiful places, that sense of being an alien or of being different or of being sort of uncomfortable would be maximized, even if I was in Ireland. I mean, the landscape would be beautiful, but I'd be the weird guy. I'd be the weird American guy who seems a little awkward out there in the house near the bog.

But I'm excited to go to Ireland and perhaps, you know, buy a hat, maybe get a scarf. I don't know, find something. So look, as we head into, uh, my conversation with Jeremy Strong, who is a, uh, a kind and sweet man, talented fella, and in one of the greatest shows ever, Succession. And I just watched him on the plane in The Gentleman, which was not a great movie. You know who was great in that movie? Fucking Hugh Grant.

Anyway, Jeremy Strong plays one of the greatest characters on television, really. And if you're not watching Succession, you should. Kendall Roy, all of the Roys, the entire show is amazing. But Kendall, he does a hell of a job with that. And in this new film, the Armageddon Time movie, Armageddon Time with Anthony Hopkins, Anne Hathaway, and Jessica Chastain, many people who I love, an acting, a real acting movie, actor's movie anyways. James Gray directed it and he's directed some very interesting movies,

but this is the most personal movie that he's directed. It's a very specific story about a family, a Jewish family. It takes place, I guess, during the 80s and it's a beautiful film, really. And there is some undertones about where we are today. It's very personal, but it deals with some of the issues that we deal with today. And it actually has sort of a premonition. Jessica Chastain plays Mary Ann Trump, who is Trump's sister. And there is a Trump presence in this movie in the early 80s. Not Donald, but the old man. It's a very personal film, but it also deals with social issues in a very personal

way. It's a smart and well-acted and well-written and well-shot movie. I liked it. I liked the movie. I think I'm going to talk to James Gray. That'll be good. But right now, I'm going to talk to Jeremy Strong. The movie Armageddon Time opens in theaters this Friday, October 28th. And this is me talking to Jeremy back in the garage. in the garage. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing.

With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer.

I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Are you self-employed? Don't think you need business insurance? Think again. Business insurance from Zensurance is a no-brainer for every business owner because it provides peace of mind. A lot can go wrong. A fire, cyber attack, stolen equipment, or an unhappy customer suing you.

That's why you need insurance. Don't let the, I'm too small for this mindset, hold you back from protecting yourself. Zensurance provides customized business insurance policies starting at just $19 per month. Visit Zensurance today to get a free quote. Zensurance. Mind your business. Film Festival. With the Armageddon movie? With James Gray's film Armageddon Time. Did you see it? I did. Yeah. What did you think? I loved it.

I'm a Jew. I want so badly for you to be a Jew, but I can't make you a Jew. He made you a Jew, which I liked. My father's Jewish. Oh, he is. And my grandfather was Jewish. Oh, so you have it, yeah. And my grandfather was a plumber who lived in Flushing.

My grandfather owned a hardware store in new jersey that's right and you lived in queens for a while yeah i did as a grown-up yeah so your grandfather was a plumber in flushing he was yeah so did you see him often i mean how close were you to that guy i was very close to him yeah when i was when i was when i was little and i and i spent some summers living in his basement on 73rd avenue near jewel avenue and main street yeah yeah i lived in his basement and i would take the qm4 into the city how old were you 12 13 see that's a weird thing right if you have that experience because i you know i have family in jersey that's where my people are from yeah and uh but i grew up in new mexico but i always had a relationship with jersey and the whole the the in your teens i'm older than you taking the bus from jersey into port authority

yeah just to walk around yeah like that way i like that scene in the movie where they just you know they're kind of free for the day that's right and there was a time when you were 13 if you knew the city you could do that just go walk around the city. I think, you know, my buddy Sam Lipside, who's a novelist and teacher. Yeah, a great novelist. Great. Up in Epic Columbia, he's one of my best friends. Like, he's got kids, and city kids are city kids, and they just do that.

They live there, and they do it. Whereas when you come into it, which I imagine you were, you know, you go in, you're like, oh, my God. No. I mean, I think I remember I would take the Greyhound bus or the Peter Pan bus from Boston to Port Authority. Yeah. And I think it was a big act of trust on my parents' part to let me do that. But so that world was a world. So James entrusted me with this and and but but

i had i had had a a pretty vivid time in my life yeah that that was a jewish oriented it was you had the experiences yeah we would have satyrs in his basement and why the basement was he was the house everything was covered in plastic you remember those houses sure yeah well there's one room there's the living room is covered in plastic and then there was the den right where my grandfather would lay on the couch and watch sports right and my grandmother would sit in a lazy boy and do crosswords my grandfather used to pick me up from the bus stop on jewel avenue and take me to roy rogers which was like you know a fancy meal and he thought that the rogers he thought that the fixings bar was like a salad bar yeah so he'd

go load himself up with no i have very he was an important figure to me yeah i as was my maternal grandfather because i just felt that uh you know, he had this hardware store and there were always these old guys hanging around the hardware store. Not doing anything, just talking. And you just sit there and soak whatever the hell it was in. Yeah, going at it, whatever it was. And my grandfather was just working, selling refrigerators. Really? Yeah. And? Yeah. Yeah.

And washers. And he had a guy that worked for him named Hooper who used to fix stuff. It was like a world. It was a whole world. And he owned the hardware store first, then he owned an appliance store. And they were like catty corner. But he sold the hardware store to Dave Dover. So they knew each other.

Everyone knew each other. And there was a luncheonette across the street, Archie's Luncheonette, the kind of place i had the counter with the food but also it was a toy store they had model planes and candy and you know it was one of those places it's sort of a lost world really totally i mean i i was familiar to me what was going on that movie those people it was a little still a little younger than me but you know that generation of old jew i definitely is familiar to me. You've played Jews before, though. I did a play about Spinoza off Broadway. It's a great theater on East 13th Street called Classic Stage Company.

Yes. And it was a wonderful play by David Ives about Spinoza's excommunication. Yeah. And the audience, the theater is this old sort of horse stable and yeah the audience was the synagogue and and the play is about uh uh spinoza's sort of belief system being dismantled and his his excommunication well so you do the research what because i've tried to read spinoza and and i can't quite wrap my brain around. I have a hard time with philosophy in general. Yeah, yeah. No.

I mean. What did you glean? Painstaking. What did I glean? I guess it's been a minute. You know. Sure. Part of the thing about this work is that you go, you really do a deep dive.

And you try and saturate yourself. Yeah. With so much understanding. Right. But then it's like a weather system and you kind of with so much understanding. Right. But then it's like a weather system and you kind of rain it all out. Yeah, it goes away. And then it's gone. It goes away.

But I remember there was something that Spinoza wrote. There were a couple things, but there was one thing that he wrote. Yeah. Which was that there can never be enough joy. and I kind of carried that with me because whenever I started to kind of go, you know, spiral into my own negativity or doubts or fear, which I often do. Like today? Yeah, on the way here. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. With real trepidation, actually, because, you know, you feel exposed. And I was at Telluride last weekend, and kate blanchett was being given a medal yeah and she said you know standing in the wings just now i was full of fear and anxiety because the hardest role to play is yourself you know we as actors we want to hide we want to disappear into a yeah i once had a character i once had john c riley on he goes no i don't usually do this you know interviews i'm like why he's, I don't want to ruin the mystique. Not even that.

I think it's just, I don't. But that was him. That was him. I feel like there's, I'm not that interesting. Yeah. The work is interesting, I hope. So there's never enough joy. That was something you think about.

It did when I was doing it. Okay. And it hung with you. Well, and it was a sort of, it became an imperative throughout the process. And I actually, acting is not something I usually tend to enjoy. I find it quite difficult and torturous. And some of that is probably the, you know, the pressures that I put on myself. Yeah.

And it was, that was just kind of this great leavener that I carried around. Yeah. And that this moment is necessarily this moment so that his belief is that there's no reason to ever not be joyful because this moment is in perfect alignment with the will of God. It could not be. Yeah, I get it. So that you stop being in argument with this moment. Right. It's like whatever is happening, that's the curriculum. And sort of being in normally I think we have these headwinds or we have these crosswinds or we're somehow at variance with what's happening or I often find myself. Or reacting to something that your brain is generating outside of the moment. Yeah. Right. or i often find myself reacting to something that your brain is generating outside of the moment yeah right and so spinoza i guess you know his belief in the exactitude and divinity of the

moment yeah and also in order to love we're talking about spinoza he said the desire is the essence of man and i and i and i thought that that you know desire kind of gets a bad rap sometimes. Not carnal desire, physical desire, but just passion. Sure. Being the engine and the essence of life. And so there... That's better than winning. I love this work. I love it because you get to be a student really forever.

Yeah, for sure. I mean, like, but it's interesting that, you know, it does seem that some of that remained with you because, you know, even if you're just doing the work, you know, you are studying a great thinker. So, you know, as a person, a student of life, somebody who wants to evolve as an individual, you know, those things obviously stuck with you.

You did get it. And it did somehow, you you know change your mind about things it did and yeah it activated something i mean listen i would if i had known you're going to ask me about spinoza i would have done a refresher a refresher course no there's no pressure but um but no i think you whether you retain things i don't think i retain very much intellectually ever but i maybe not honestly i feel like a bit of a sieve well but but but i do think things imprint themselves on you yeah and and i think i retain sort of scattered pieces of all of these experiences somewhere in my unconscious or somewhere in that well i mean

it seems like you know in terms of like the self-exploitation the idea that you are fundamentally boring because you know you make yourself that way i don't know if that's true but but in terms of doing the work i understand this approach to it and and i do think it's interesting that how quickly things do leave after you do them you know that once you walk away it's kind of odd it is because when you're doing it it's the most important thing in the world because you're in it yeah you're i mean and you've you know you've loaded up yeah and when and when you walk away from it it's like it it was like it was almost a different world. Well, it does feel that way.

Yeah. It feels there's something about it that feels, it's like you enter some trance and you sort of go somewhere else. And then you return from it and it vanishes. It feels very real at the time. Well, it kind of is. It's almost like it's heightened. And it's different. Like, I mean, you've done enough theater to know that theater is theater. And the context of that is you've got to stay in it.

Yeah. And so the electricity of theater, half of it is just sort of like I've got to get from beginning to end. Right. But being on set of a TV show or a movie is sort of a plotting process where the work becomes fragmented. Yes. And so the appreciation of this work is going to happen in these two to three minute increments. And being able to maintain that world and your work in that world is a tremendous challenge. But it's all very heightened. Even the waiting is heightened because being on a set, you know, it's like, you know what's up.

Yeah. Yeah. And as soon as you're in it, you're like, I mean, but it's like, I don't know where one gets that because there are some people that can't function at all in front of a camera or on a stage and i don't know that it's necessarily learned you know the the the ability to shift into that it's interesting i mean i think everyone approaches it differently but part of it is in a way what you just said that you know what's up part of it is about forgetting what's up uh-huh i find you know what's up, part of it is about forgetting what's up. I find, you know, if I go visit someone on a set or I go sit in the audience of a play, I can't even imagine doing that myself. I find it like... When you watch somebody? Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm sort of astonished by it. And then somehow you go through whatever chrysalis you go through in preparation. And when you enter into something and when you're inside it enough, then you, I find that you can forget what's up. Sure. You can forget. Oh, yeah. And you sort of are just living inside of a sense of belief.

Yeah. And you sort of are just living inside of a sense of belief that is the... That this is happening now. That this is real. Yeah. How do you... But when you do it, do you lock in? I find that the sooner I get in relationship with another actor, then it sort of gets real. That's interesting. Do you do it with desks?

Are you one of those people that's like... Touches the wood. Yeah, touches the wood. You know, I've tried that. I've tried everything, you know? Yeah. This is now. This is now.

You know, I mean, listen, just being, trying to be present is something I think we all struggle with. It is the whole thing. Yeah. It is. It seems that if you can do that, you can get away with it. There's a lot of work to be done before you walk onto a set. Yeah. before you walk onto a set in terms of, I mean, depending on the material,

depending on the tone, the role, characterization, there's a lot of work that you have to make unconscious and internalize and lay in and all of that. Yeah. But then it's really, it's quite simple. I mean, it's not, it's mysterious to me, but it's like, there's this great thing. I remember being at drama school when I was 18 in England and the principal at

the school gave everyone the four quartets, the TSL, the TSL and said, and read some passages from it. One of them being about a condition of complete simplicity costing, not less than everything and i think that's what yeah that's that's what it is yeah yeah it's it's so funny that yeah depending on what your nature is and who you are and what you know what resonates with you

uh all these disciplines of understanding uh outside math are kind of like, go for it. Whatever moves you, you know, take it. You know what I mean? Yeah. And that's how you sort of build your understanding of the world. I think so. Yeah. Yeah.

So wait, you grew up in Boston? I grew up in Boston. Like what part? I lived there for years. Because you went to BU. I did go to BU. And then I came out here and crashed and burned for about a year. And then I went back. To Boston. Like what part? I lived there for years. Because you went to BU. I did go to BU and then I came out here and crashed and burned for about a year

and then I went back. To Boston? Yeah. Where did you live? At that time when I went back? Yeah. Well, when I went to BU, I lived on Carlton Street, which was just over the Brookline Boston, right off of Beacon there. And I lived

on Park Drive. We were on the corner from there. But when I went back, I was in Somerville there. And I lived on Park Drive. We were on the corner from there. But when I went back, I was in Somerville. Yeah. I lived in an attic in Somerville right in Davis Square before it was hip. I grew up in Jamaica Plain. JP. Before it was hip.

Yeah. And I went to school in Dorchester. Yeah. And my father- Dorchester. Yeah. And my father- Dorchester, that seems far away from JP, no? There was a, I would get on the bus to go to elementary school there. I used to work at a place in West Roxbury called Gordon's Deli. Yeah, I was in West Roxbury a lot.

My father worked for the Department of Youth Services and he ran these juvenile jails in Boston and one of them was in West Roxbury and I would go spend time there at the juvenile jail? was he a social worker? yeah essentially but he was sort of

an administrator of these facilities and I think it was a really it was a really tough, heavy job that he sort of protected my brother and I from the heaviness of. Yeah. But I would spend time there.

I got to know a lot of the guys who were locked up. How old were they, under 18? Yeah, yeah. So did your dad ever go into private practice? the guys who were locked up and how old were they under 18 yeah yeah and and what was your so did your dad ever like go into private practice no but he was beloved i mean as as much as one could be i mean he he what was his exact job title he was the sort of facility facility administrator so he oversaw was he a warden it's it there there wasn't a title for that but essentially huh but essentially he had a really big key ring that was one of my earliest memories. So he was sort of managing several facilities?

Yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah. And my mother was a hospice nurse and worked at Boston Children's Hospital. That's a great hospital. Yeah, it is. I was born there. Yeah?

That's interesting. So your mother's bringing these people in the world and the hope is that they don't end up in the care of your father yeah yeah you know my father my father got really close to a lot of the kids yeah who were there, but I definitely grew up with a, with a very, um, with a very keen awareness. I don't know that I could have articulated it as a, as a kid, but, but of what I've come to understand as sort of vicious cycles. And, and, you know, my, my parents are both very And, you know, my parents are both very empathic people who they both, I think, gave themselves completely over to some form of service. Yeah. I mean, in theory, in spiritual theory, and in, you know, kind of moral theory, the highest thing you can do. Is service.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, whatever we were talking about earlier in terms of Spinoza and the shortage of joy, that I don't know, like, for me, when I think of service, and even just hearing about what your parents do, there should be a certain amount of genuine joy in succeeding in both of those things if you're helping people. Absolutely. society yeah that you know people like my mother and father yeah while they're while that work is valued and recognized it's not the kind of thing that we valorize particularly you know those aren't no it's like the quiet the heroes yeah and and and i think there was a lesson that i got from my parents that was about what can you give as opposed to what can you gain. Yeah.

And I think when we're in a place of service, I mean, certainly that's something that is talked about in sobriety and service. Are you sober gay? I'm not, but I have a lot of close friends who are, and Kendall has been. But I guess I'm a bit of an idealist about creative work. Yeah. And I think that actors are servants. Well, I think that, like, I thought about that, too,

with this particular movie. But, like, before I get into that, so, do you have siblings? I have a younger brother. How old's that guy? He's two years younger than me, so I don't know. I'm either 42 or 43 right now.

So he's two years younger. Do you not believe when you were of just i kind of just lost track is there some question is something still being worked out yeah well let me know when you conspiracy theories about where and when you were born yeah the exact time yeah uh the actor's studio in 19 yeah oh really yeah you're a time traveler yeah yeah uh so your brother's not in the in the show business racket no my brother was working at a at a company that had something to do with video conferencing software that i could never remember the name of and then yeah then there was a global pandemic and it's called Zoom. No kidding. So he works. Yeah, did all right, I guess.

But the servicing, I guess what I was going to say, in thinking about this movie and thinking about storytelling and framing the work that you do in some ways as giving and being of service, I think that there can be a truth to that. Although there is a certain amount of assumed ego in show business. Of course. Of course. But this, you know, and I know that the phrase, the term storytelling gets thrown around a lot now. Like, I'm a storyteller. He's a storyteller. It's very important, the storytelling.

Yeah. But this particular movie is an important story. And it's done with a certain amount of, of grace and, and subtlety. Uh, and, and it's a relevant story that, that is set in the eighties and it, and it kind of, it kind of, uh, pre pre shadows, uh, what we're in now. Exactly. Very intentionally. Yeah. Yeah. In a very, you know, with real ingenuity, I think on James's. Oh, for sure. For sure, yeah. To me, he's one of the greatest living filmmakers, and I think his body of work goes toe-to-toe with any living filmmaker.

Well, I like this one, this story in Reckoning with his father, as opposed to the one in Outer Space. No, I enjoyed that. I did, too, and it's one of my favorite performances of of pitts and there's real um there's a thread that goes through his work through all of his work about the relationship between fathers and sons and this is certainly his most personal film and is about you know it's a it's it's it's it's an autobiographical yeah film and i think the thing that that's really kind of thunderstruck me when i yeah when i read it is that it's both it's both the origin story of an artist yeah in the way that we've seen a lot

of these films recently yeah but it's also the origin story of our country where it is now yeah exactly you see in 1980 against the backdrop of reagan's election yeah and the sort of emergence of the kind of market is god idea and and then the underpinnings of anti-semitism and anti-semitism and and the and the fault lines that have become the you know the the widening racial and social and political divisions yeah that are you know yeah i mean this movie fred trump is fred trump who who who was you know part of the school that paul in the film yeah ends up going to yeah he's a benefactor right yeah he's one of the benefactors and the family you know and and that school i think later james remembers

donald sort of around walking the halls like like a wraith yeah well i mean they this sister uh who is a state attorney then i think is a judge or was is now a retired judge and i think she's uh incapacitated with uh with mental problems uh but jessica chastain plays that character yes yeah and so but all of that sort of exists in this very off-handed adjacent way to the story but you feel that it's in the the sort of substrate of everything that the soil of the film no that's it's placed on like i i in a very glancing way right you know i love the film you know and i've been i've been i've been very lucky to work on some great films but this as far as a uh this film yeah as a whole the film is full of warmth and humor

and love and loss but there's also something um incredibly piercing in its moral argument uh to me it's a movie without being didactic in any way about white privilege and the blindness of white privilege and the idea that complicity is something that we've all experienced yeah it's done you know very subtly and very well and within the context a framework of you know when you have somebody who, a grandfather character who has experienced the type of historic anti-Semitism. Right. And that within the family there is, you know, a standing up to fascism in a way.

Yes. And then there's this sort of, you know, kind of Jewish premium put on helping the under, you know, like acknowledging your own privilege yeah and helping others and also standing up for what's right right and and the failure to do that right i mean for the kid it's hard for the kid and he's a kid yeah but i think clearly it's an event that has in many ways shaped and haunted this filmmaker's life i'm sure i mean all it takes is one thing these what we think of as small events yeah oh yeah are really are colossal events and because they they they take up space in your heart and in your mind yeah and and and they also they're the

kind of genome that become the map of the world. Of your perception. Yeah. As an artist or whatever you do. I think so. Yeah. So, like, in going back to your experience, I mean, being that this is about,

because your character, it's a difficult character because he can't control himself. Right. And, you know, I mean, if you have that in your life, it's a horrible frightening thing for usually that individual who doesn't recognize it until he's done something terrible that's right uh and feels you know guilty for it but that doesn't necessarily mean he'll stop doing that

but to a kid it's brutal and and it's uh complete uh soul-shattering shit yeah yeah it's there there's real brutality yeah in that relationship and there's real tenderness yeah and a sort of you know i'm drawn to people but to characters as well who are muddled he finds himself I think ill-equipped and uncomprehending and in and in and in the middle of you he's a steam boiler he repairs steam boilers yeah in this in the film James's father was an engineer but but I thought about that just as a that just as a concept of the steam boiler. Yeah. Of something that is, when it gets dysregulated, it will explode. Yeah.

Or just. Or just, yeah. Blow up steam. There's, and I, my father was never violent, but he had a temper and, but he also is the most, he was under a lot of pressure. Sure. there were just the walls were pushing in on all sides and the economic pressures and the desire to provide my brother and I with a chance at life. But I remember the sea changes of moods. I mean, my father is the most loving, benign,

loving, affectionate man. Now? Now and always. Yeah. And so I don't, I'm not drawing a parallel between them. Sure. His father, my grandfather. Yes.

Was quite, had that brutality. The plumber? And cruelty, the plumber. And so I think my father experienced things that are akin to what the character in the film experiences. But that sense of the accordioning of emotion. Yeah. You know, there's this character is goofy. Yeah.

He's affectionate. Right. And he also can lose control sure you know it's a lot of it's rooted in that fear uh personal fear but also the fear for the kid that you you know there was a a premium put on you know working towards something yeah that will you know earn you a living that will put you in a better place than your parents. That's right. And it was incomprehensible. You know, the idea that putting these kids in that school would, you know, on some, the one thing I really resonated with me for whatever reason was that there was a belief that it

would help Jews pass, that there was a belief that, you know, this is how we're going to integrate into the higher echelon of culture. Right. And then, you know, counter to that, you know, Reagan's president, and they're all sitting there going, this is a disaster. I mean, I remember when we moved, you know, when I was in fourth grade. Yeah. The public school I was going to was rough,

and there was an incident on the school bus one day that was where'd you move to we moved to a town called sudbury i know sudbury which is like a very affluent you know the zip code is 1776 and we rented a house and i went to good public schools but my parents never really assimilated into that they were not welcome in you you know, a lot of the... And when you moved, what was the incident? There was a kid who pulled a knife on the bus. And, you know, and I think my mother wanted to take us somewhere else.

Yeah. And... But I remember the, you know, there was a country club in the town we went to. And, you know, we weren't members of that. Sure. And the feeling of being an outsider. Yeah.

And the feeling of, part of my thing, I guess, because acting is a form of assimilation, right? I mean, it's about chameleoning, and it's about probably at a young age. You know, I think all of our... Yeah. We're all fairly malleable. Dude, it's frightening how much. I think it is.

If you look at, like, Philip Zimbardo and the Stanford Prison Experiment, which I've always been fascinated by yes the idea that role playing which we all do when we're children you know we may be doing it now yeah yeah go ahead so so anyway so i think i i you know i i think what about that experiment just the plasticity of of identity you know and and I think, you know, I've always thought about there's a line in Hamlet where he says, for use can almost change the stamp of nature. And I think as an actor, what you're doing every time you take on a role, Irving Graff, Kendall Roy, Jerry Rubin, you're trying to change the stamp of your nature and you can do that through use through habit and work of course and and i find that um but i find that somehow

connected to probably early experiences of trying to fit in sure trying to sort of pretzel yourself rearrange yourself somehow molecularly to to to fit into an environment is there a point like it's i'm sort of stuck in this thing you're watching that documentary about paul newman i haven't seen hawks i haven't seen it it's a very interesting thing because it's some because paul at some point you know as an actor as a young actor you know once he falls in love with you know the genius that is joanne Woodward, he's in this zone of being a good-looking, capable guy that fits on film. But he's up against Brando and James Dean and all these cats, and he's over there with

Sandy Meisner doing the thing. But he knows he doesn't have what they have, and he has to reckon with that. So there's this weird thing where Paul Newman has to reckon with that right so you know there's this weird thing where you know paul newman has to realize to to himself at least as i've only watched one episode that he may be average right and that like you know he has to acknowledge his his limitations yeah his limitations but also like who the fuck am i yeah yeah now wait and you seem to be in the same uh uh legacy of work as that so was there a point when you started thank you yeah that you had to reckon with what the self is i mean we're kind of dancing around that and you know you were you know able to sort of you know you

know decide that you're boring or or assume that you're blank-sweating yourself. Right. But you also know enough about yourself to know what may have formed you. Was there a reckoning? You know, I mean, you have a life. You have a wife. You have children.

It's a great question. You know, did you ever watch that TED Talk with Brene Brown? Yeah, I've interviewed her. I love her. You know, that idea of, like, you've got to dance you know you ever watch that Ted talk with Brene Brown yeah I've interviewed her I love her you know that idea of like you gotta dance

with the one that brung ya yeah I think that is a really big part of the work uh huh to become

an actor and I'm still becoming an actor that's how I understand that yeah and what do you mean by that

essentially well my understanding of what she meant yeah becoming an actor that's how i understand that and what do you mean by that essentially well my understanding of what she meant yeah like when you're a kid and i fell in love with this and dreamt about this from when i was little five acting yeah yeah yeah i joined some local theater group in a basement down the block. When you were how old? In Jamaica Plain. Yeah. Maybe five or six.

Yeah. Children's theater? Children's theater. Yeah. And I think it was just, you know, an escape. And it was magical. Was there an actor at that time that made it seem possible to you? No.

I mean, I never had any access to this world at all. But then I think I just felt free in a way that I didn't feel in my life. And that's continued. I mean, there's something that happens within the structure and control of a piece of work. Yeah. I have found at least moments and experiences of freedom that are, you know. Fleeting. That are fleeting and profound.

Sure. I feel it when I do stand-up, when I improvise. I bet. Yeah. And you sort of lose yourself and you shed. Yeah.

You don't know where it comes from. No, you don't know where it comes from. And that to me has become the sort of, I don't gun for it, but I respect it. Yes, you have to because you can't control it, and you can't summon it, and you can't command it.

But if you're going to step out there, and you're going to be open to it, when it does happen, it's almost like when you walk off that stage, you're sort of like, that is just, I know. I don't know if anyone else knows, but I know. And I don't know if that's ever going to come back. That's right.

But that's what it's all about. No, and you don't know if it will ever come back. That's right. You know, and I think that it's quite humbling because it doesn't belong to you. You know, it's an interesting thing about having, quote, success as an actor. Yeah. Because, which I, you know, which I shouldn't put quotes around that because I'm very fortunate to to be working doing good you know things are great but it doesn't I don't feel like whatever this

ability is whatever is is something that I that belongs to me yeah but like but also you know I think you're coming up against show business and against public personality hood. Yeah. Those are different things. Yeah. No, kind of. I mean, show business and public personality hood are not that different. But, you know, acting may be, in terms of, you know, how one approaches in the art form of it, is different.

You know, and everybody has their, you know, their journey with it. Yeah. And, you know, I don't know. I imagine you're probably not going to end up in something that you hate for a long period of time. No. But your question- About self. I wish I could- I don't really know if I can pin that down because it still feels elusive to me.

I don't know. But- But you have values. But I do think- Sure. Responsibilities. I don't really know if I can pin that down because it still feels elusive to me. I don't know, you know, but, but. But you have values. But I do think. Sure. Responsibilities. And more and more and the older I've gotten and I think I've evolved as a, you know, as an actor away from, you know, when you're younger. Yeah. I think a lot of it is about putting on disguises and essentially performing things.

Yeah. And then you see certain people's work and you realize there's a whole other dimension to it. Who was that for you? I mean... Really? Like the moment where you're like, holy fuck. I don't know if there's a moment, but of the you know there were some moments maybe when i first saw that scene in five easy pieces when i first saw that diner at the end with his father when i first when i first saw coming home oh my god when i saw that scene where bobby caridin shoots air into his veins yeah holy. Holy shit. Yeah. What the fuck was that?

Yeah, go ahead. You know, Duval's work. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But, you know, and then it's also, you can't help but just start to draw from your own experiences. Sure. I've said this before. Yeah. But it's something I've thought about a lot.

Yeah. It's something I read. And since we're having a real conversation, I'll say it again. Yeah. At the risk of not whatever the articles have already been written but exactly but something that jung said that only that which is really ourselves has the power to heal and if acting is a service which i think it is that service you know i don't use the word storyteller but i do believe that actors in a sense are wounded healers yeah and and so if something is actually going to have the chance

to connect with an audience or touch an audience it has to come from a real place in you yeah uh and so that's that's it that's all that i really mean by that yeah well it's interesting because you know you there there is a spectrum of actor there's a spectrum of performer you know i mean you know sadly you and i are in similar businesses but we're also in this a similar business as vaudevillians and jugglers right so you know and there are people that get into acting you know for a lot of. Right. So, you know, and there are people that get into acting, you know, for a lot of different reasons. Some guys just, you know, it's easier than working.

Some guys, you know, I mean, I've talked to a lot of them. And it's difficult when you work in a profession that some guy could just sort of like, I don't do any work. Hold on, the camera's on. Watch this. You know what's amazing is how some of those guys then you know they might start out that way and then some of them become they're great of their artistry is like yeah but they don't look at it the same way

you do you know it's a however that's the one thing about this game is that you know everyone's got their approach yeah uh and and you know some being a movie star and being a great actor at the same time, it's tricky. Not all of them can do it, but we've got quite a few that can these days. Yeah. Because there are some people that stay profoundly themselves in every role. You know, they don't disappear. Then there's some people that disappear. Right.

And then there's some people that, you know, are themselves. But they're not movie stars, but they're, you know, they're doing the work. I mean, it's like there's so people that disappear and then there's some people that you know are themselves but they're not movie stars but they're you know they're doing the work i mean it's like there's so many ways yeah uh yeah and they're all and they're all valid and of course and yeah some guys just like you know some people are just clowns what do you what are you gonna do yeah you know but they're they're all doing the same trip in a way yeah but you know it may not be satisfying to you but like for me in talking to you like i mean when i watched a succession and i saw you coming up against cox who i have interviewed and there are scenes where where it's sort of like i i there was a point where i texted my producer

i'm like you know you know i was like jeremy's beating him jeremy's yeah he's winning this thing and this guy's an animal. You know, like, and I just see two methods going at each other. But the work was different. And I could feel that. And it doesn't happen all the time. But, you know, because everyone's doing their thing. But it was one of those times where it's sort of like, you know, he risked it. You know, some of these old guys, they don't have to risk it anymore because they're all filled up all the time.

And they can turn something on that has a point of reference to 50 years of fucking work. Yeah. And they can fool people. But, you know, when you're putting your ass on the line, you know, sometimes that's going to win. And you can see it. Sometimes it'll balance out. And sometimes, you know, the dance is great. You know, he is, he's like as primal

yeah he's as primal and dangerous an actor as i'll probably ever encounter yeah and so so it was really it has been really the the one of the central relationships of my life to get to do this with him yeah uh and and you know we don't talk very much and none of those scenes are were rehearsed yeah and it's great it's you know and and you know one of the first things james gray said to me we had dinner i got i dinner. I got this role. Yeah. Got on a plane. I was in Copenhagen.

Went to hunt him down in New York. Yeah. To, you know, to ask him about his family and his life. Yeah. Interrogate him. And one of the first things he said was, don't nail it. Whatever you do, don't nail it. And it's like the greatest thing a director has ever said to me.

Because in a lot of films and a lot of processes, you know, making film or television, there is that sense of that pressure. And I find that to only result in a kind of tension. And what we really want, or at i think yeah what i want yeah is not for people to be perfect and bulletproof yeah but is is you know when i see films and you see work that is uh alive and messy and raw it's it's like the opposite of nailing it but so when you look at you know your process you you look at your you know you went where'd you you were at yale for a while i was at yale as an as an undergraduate not the drama school uh i was an english major but i went there for college did you try to do the drama you know the drama school is a graduate school all right that's

right that's the big one i would have tried yeah. You know, I thought I was going to be a theater studies major as an undergrad. Yeah. But it just wasn't a good fit for me. Yeah. You know, I wasn't, I showed up and it was a lot of sort of theory and it felt very academic and very, I'm a cerebral enough person and a lot of the work I have to do is about getting out of my own head. Yeah. So where did you start the work?

Like real? Yeah. I think I had an experience of doing John Osborne's play, Look Back in Anger. Yeah. When I was a senior at Yale. Yeah. And I had done, you know, dozens and dozens and dozens of plays yeah at that point but I remember having an experience in the middle of a scene yeah where I actually where I actually

listened to what the person was saying to me like I you weren't concerned with yourself I stopped performing anything and it went from performing to being yes and that was a revelatory that was like that was a moment a big moment and you didn't plan it you just realized it just something shifted attentionally nice nice but it sounds i mean it is quite simple but it is no it's huge it's the whole thing when if you're not waiting for your next line, or you're not waiting for your cue, it's the difference between whatever your process is of memorization. You plant it in your head, and you're like, okay, my line comes after that line. That's what you do to memorize.

So you're going to do some version of that for as long as it takes you not to do that. You're going to do some version of that for as long as it takes you not to do that. There's a difference between hearing what's being said and hearing the end of the line that cues you to talk. Right? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. But I think it just, you know, and then I studied here and there, but just did theater in New York off-Broadway, off, off, off,

you know, all the way off-Broadway. Who'd you study with in New York? I studied at HB Studio on Bank Street. Oh, yeah. Herbert Bergdorf Studio. Was that Bill Esper's? It was, no, that was different, but I studied with Austin Pendleton. Do you know Austin?

No. Great actor, great teacher. Austin talked a lot about figuring out what the need is is yeah yeah and once you understand the need yeah pursuing that yeah so do you believe that without knowing yeah where you're going sure you believe that you plant that thing yeah so you you knew on your own breakthrough to that you that listening was happening then you know sort of identifying the need was the next piece what'd you learn and you were at steppenwolf for a period yeah what did that let you do get mad yeah you know i mean obviously those guys are legendary right you know true west and

well yeah but were you there with tracy they were all there they all taught tracy let you know i've come to know tracy a bit the best i admire him tremendously great guy um but but what did i learn at steppenwolf i mean again you went there for a reason codify any of this stuff no but i mean you went there yeah i went there for a reason of the because they were just kind of like a balls out yeah you know yeah theater company that we don't have in this country in terms of an ensemble right that have grown together and done really audacious yeah work yeah but it's really just about a practice yeah like any discipline is your practice there you go yeah it's just a practice and then thousands and thousands of hours on stage and

and and the danger of stage which i find okay um it's exciting exciting and you know yeah yeah and you and you know you dig in like you know you do a thing with uh uh like i i know you spent time with daniel day lewis yeah and that was sort of your somehow or another what that experience must have made you realize a couple things i mean whatever that because I just read a little bit, some pieces of, like, you must have seen how show business worked through that experience. Well, not even show business,

but I saw, I guess I saw an actor following the line of their intuition with utter commitment and in a way i think well it was it was revelatory to watch and and i think what it did was it kind of gave me permission to be bold yeah in my own way yeah but you know ultimately you and I'm sure you found this too, there's not a whole lot you can learn from other people. You know, I think there was a time in my life where I sought out teachers. Yeah.

And I wanted to, you know, get the magic beans. Yeah. From these greats and find the master, you know, an apprentice to the masters. And find the master, you know, an apprentice to the masters. But the masters, like all of us, are on the frontier of their own uncertainty and confusion. Sure. Just like all of us. And so there's really no, there is no kind of axiom that you can impart that's going to unlock the mysteries. Well, sometimes there's practical tricks

there were great practical you know and not even tricks but but but tools right tools sure things because a lot of especially film work yeah is practical yeah and then there's the and then there's the element of it that remains and needs to remain a mystery. Like you said, you know, you can only sort of, you know, you can't summon flame, I think. No, no. So. I think the thing is, though, that the only thing that increases your,

the possibility of summoning flame is stepping out, making yourself available for it. Yes. Which is overcoming fear. Yes. And so, like, you know, that's inconsistent. That is inconsistent? Yes.

What do you mean? Doing it. Yeah. Like, I mean, you can aspire to it and maybe eventually get to fearlessness necessary, but sometimes it's sort of like, oh, God. No, I mean, that is the thing. I think fearlessness is really but sometimes it's sort of like no i mean that that is the thing i think it fearlessness is really the word yeah you know i am not a fearless person right but i think i as an actor you have to be fearless or you have to find a way i think to well to just like ramrod

those fears that's right yeah yeah and go right into them because because i'm never without fear right but put yourself in the situation in those scenes with brian somehow yeah and in others you know and i guess in general when i go to work yeah although you die a thousand deaths maybe in the van on the way to work yeah um there is something about there's this thing that i read that has always stayed with me that Garcia Lorca said that only when you rob yourself of skill and security might the duende appear. The duende being, you know, the spirit. Oh, yeah. And I think that it is about that. It's about a surrendering to a power to some power

that i don't understand sure i think what's what's interesting what we keep coming back to is that you know however anybody looks at anything we talk about yeah and i think you've had this experience you know recently yeah you'll fuck them yeah definitely and and and and the truth is is that like you know what what's happening is happening. Is that like, you know, the depth of anyone's appreciation as an artist for what their work is and how they get to where they want to get is, you know, it's their fucking thing. And it's our work. It's your work. It's our work.

It's your work. So, you know, there's nothing but judgmental, you know, shallow people out there who are looking to start shit over things they don't understand. You know, like it's like like I said before, it's like if it's not mathematics, then it's all fucking poetry. And you've got to figure out which of those things is going to guide you to get you where you got to go. Yeah. And, you know, the liability is talking about it. That's right. No, you know, I mean, there is a sense, I'm sure you know this, you know, driving here, there's this feeling of like, am I going in front of a firing squad?

Yeah, yeah. Of course, i'm not because it's so wonderful to talk to you um but uh but you're right about all of that yeah yeah and and you know at the end of the day um you know this film armageddon time yeah it's serious stuff this is if this is a person excavating his life yeah And I have to earn the right to walk onto that set and be this man's father. Yeah. And, and he needs to believe that I'm his father.

And so the challenge of that and the responsibility of that, I take it as seriously. Sure. As anything in life. Yeah. Why? You should. You should. Yeah. No, we should, you know, I think that you should you should yeah no we should you know i think that is yeah even if like you know people though i think one of the things you're up against

so and i don't know where your ego's at with that is that like you know you've gotten a lot of you know uh attention and and uh you won a prize you know and and uh you know and is there sometimes like i think the feeling is are you good with you know do you remember doing off off off broadway and feeling satisfied was that enough interesting well it both was and it wasn't, right? Because. Okay. Yeah. Because the, yes, it was in the sense that it was incredibly nourishing to get to, I worked on great plays, you know, in 60 seat theaters above a falafel stand. Yeah. And nobody saw. And, you know, that they pay you with a MetroCard and, you know, you're, you're, you're, you're living in're living in a way that feels very precarious. Creatively, a lot of that was enough.

And some of that work, to be honest, is more fulfilling than 95% of the film and television work that's available. The theater is... But in my mind, it's sort of like this is where it matters and then you look at the audience you're like to these four people yeah yeah and and and i think like any actor i'd be lying if i said that i didn't want to be doing what i'm getting to do now yeah you know those are the you know those are my Yeah. It's amazing to me that... Yeah. That... Yeah, it's great. Yeah.

Now, Denmark, so you're married to a Danish person? Yes. I'm married to a psychiatrist who is also now a documentary filmmaker, and she just made an amazing short film about these two immigration lawyers who are sort of fighting ice and preventing deportations and she just showed it at telluride so we both had a film there which was

which was really amazing um and you have kids we have three little girls yeah how's that for you four and two and one good yeah it's the best yeah it's a lot. It's a lot right now. It's like sort of everything converged. Everything happened at once in my life in a lot of ways. Do you love Denmark? I love Denmark. I envy you. Have you spent time there?

No, I really haven't, I don't think. I just picture it being minimal furniture. Yeah, sure. And not a lot of storage space it it uh i've spent a lot of time there in the last eight years we have danish kids my kids speak danish yeah they've got danish passports i have a house there it's great it's a very because it's over here it's a very sane yeah gentle practical place practical beautiful place that really looks after its people you know the median quality of life yeah for everyone uh that's so it's not it's just a different well that's the thing it's like the stress yeah goes right

i go to canada and it's i'm it's gone i'm free so i go anywhere yeah it's just i don't give a shit yeah yeah and it's like oh it's not here the psychic cancer yeah is not it's you know when you go to those places it's it's around but it's not you're not the patient yeah you know you know it's happening and it's going to spread something but it's not it're not the patient yeah you know you know it's happening and it's going to spread something but it's not it's not going to kill you no and it's it's very um yeah it's very restorative for me to be there and it's become a sanctuary and it's great you know i ride my bike around and good for you nobody gives a shit about you know yeah and the new yorker yeah yeah exactly yeah and and it's a very you know uh i remember i took my wife the first time i went there i took her and

her mother and uncle to noma yeah which is that you know famous restaurant yeah that's in denmark yeah and um we met the chef afterwards and went to the kitchen and they have this sort of dry erase board with all kinds of stuff on it yeah and they had one i think number one restaurant in the world four years in a row at that point or something like that and they said something about how every year they threw out the entire menu because they knew if they tried to protect their success, they wouldn't achieve it again. And that mentality, that risk mentality, is really rife in that country.

There's a real sense of... And you understand that. And so that's something that really appeals to me. Because I think. Unless you put yourself in danger somehow. You know it's that thing. Frank Stella said. I'm only interested in what I can't do.

So what can't you do. Because then you're up against something. Where you're going to have to. Find some inner ledge. To go on. And then you're up against something where you're going to have to find some inner ledge to go on and then you might grow. You might fail spectacularly, but you might grow. But I think like what I'm hearing from you, which I don't know that we're, you know, which I think deserves some defining is that, you know, you're able to compartmentalize. Yeah. And that, you know you're able to compartmentalize that and and that you

know that is the deal is that you know when when you're doing your family thing or you're you know out in the world you're not an empty vessel you know it's just you're not doing the work at that moment that's exactly right no that's right that's right and and that you know you you you function in the world i have a very normal life. And I'm sure you're not boring. And I'm sure that you have interests. We've talked about some of them. I wish, you know... I'm trying to make you look good here.

Thank you. Okay, I'll take it. I'll take it. I'll take it. But no, I mean, when I'm with my family, when i'm in my life yeah i'm all in that yeah yeah um but work is something that feeds me yeah and it has been an obsession sure you know and that is yeah i i i i get very intensely um obsessed with a piece of work and it becomes a real kind of, you know,

it feels. You make your wife work double duty? It's, you know, finding that balance and figuring, you know, but you're right about compartmentalization.

Yeah. It's just be careful because like I, despite what we said earlier, I really took, I think it took Pacino years to shake Scarface yeah i think i i really believe i saw him in the american buffalo in boston yeah you saw that yeah in the production

yeah in the 80s and i don't i don't remember what the distance was between that and tony montana right but there was a little in there i heard a little bit a little bit so you know make sure he's kind of amazing amazing as he gets older when he wants to do the work, when he really wants to do the work. Like, him playing Dr. Kevorkian, that was crazy good. Yeah, he's incredible.

I mean... You know, he got lost in hoo-ha for a while. Maybe. You could say, you know, maybe. I know people, some people feel that there's been affectations. I mean, I just think that he has never stopped. I think, but he, I think he's one of the only ones though.

He is. No, he's, I mean, when, you know, when I say about always being, you know, what I said earlier about being a student, I feel like he has never stopped. Yeah. He can go there. Yeah. He still takes the risk, the vulnerability. He does.

Yeah. Yeah. You know, and it's funny because he came to my school when I was an undergrad. Yeah. I had been an intern on this documentary he made called Looking for Richard. Sure. I remember that. Yeah.

And that was my introduction to Shakespeare. And I was, I think I was, I don don't know 15 or 16 when i did that um and so later when i invited him to school he said something someone asked a question it was a very sort of intellectual question and he said a couple simple things that have stayed with me for the rest of my life. One was just about finding a way to connect viscerally with a character. Yeah. Not in your thoughts. Yeah.

And the other was about meaning what you say. That it's that simple. You have to mean the words that you say. You can't just say those words. And I think that that's it's so loaded that concept yeah yeah it's like at the end of this last season of succession yeah i had to sit on the dirt yeah oh yeah with your siblings of a parking lot yeah With your siblings? On the floor of a parking lot.

Yeah. And Jesse had written a line that said, I'm blown in two million pieces. You know? Yeah. And so your work really is to mean that. Yeah. Find a way to mean it.

Yeah. What's going to happen? I don't know. I don't know. You know, it's like, I don't know. We're about know. How much have you shot? It's like, I don't know. We're about halfway through. Exciting? Yeah. Yeah.

And, you know, the fear, in a way, we've made 30 hours of stories so far. Yeah. The fear is, how do you continue to move the needle? How do you sustain something like that? Well, it feels to me that- But they have you know it feels to me that it's it's you we're at a ledge here that it feels that it's sustainable for this season for sure you know i don't know about one after this but but it doesn't matter i don't know it doesn't

matter i mean and i'm sure they feel that way that these guys seem smart there's i mean jesse's jesse armstrong is just a brilliant he's a brilliant writer. Yeah. And he, again and again, you know, I think, I mean, in a way, that thing we're talking about, about where does this come from? Yeah. I think Jesse also feels a sort of terrible weight of how am I going to clear this bar? And at the same time, whatever that source is yeah i think is inexhaustible really i don't think the material for this show is inexhaustible but i think that that thing we're talking about duende yeah you know if you make yourself available to it right got it good talking to you you too great great talking to you.

Okay, so that was the conversation that I had with Jeremy Strong. So here's what happened. About 10 days after I talked to him, he sent a text with a voice memo recording. He said it was something that he's been thinking about, and he wished he had said it during our talk. So here it is. Mark it's jeremy um i just wanted to send you this i've been thinking about our conversation and something i wish i had said i don't know if it's too late, but here I am in a hotel room in Stockholm, jet lagged out of my mind. You know, all this stuff about me and that article and, you know, quote, controversy. And I guess the thing I keep thinking is, is who cares? Who cares? Right.

Who cares what some actor says or does? It's entirely unimportant. And There's devastating flooding in Pakistan. Supreme Court overturned Roe v. Wade. The fucking Secretary General of the UN called the latest IPCC report on the climate crisis a code red for humanity. And, you know, we open our news feeds and there's all this stuff about actors and what they're saying and what they're doing. And it's just, it's just silliness and, uh, It's just silliness and it's harmful and it's a distraction from things that matter. And I think the work that actors do can be meaningful and can be healing and can even maybe matter. But what we say and do and how any of us work or how any of us get there. It's just entirely unimportant.

Okay, it was really great to talk to you. And yeah, that's it. Okay, there you go. Jeremy Strong, the movie Armageddon Time opens in theaters this Friday, October 28th. And I would like you to hang out for a minute. Could you do. Jeremy Strong. The movie Armageddon Time opens in theaters this Friday, October 28th. And I would like you to hang out for a minute. Could you do that? Thanks.

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Visit cozy.ca, that's C-O-Z-E-Y, and start customizing your furniture. So look, folks, on Thursday, I talked to Ron Carter, who is one of the architects of modern jazz, one of the great double bass players, one of the great musicians, has been on upwards of 2,300 recordings, is still active and lucid, and his fingers are still beautiful and working. I saw him at Birdland in New York the night before I talked to him. I tried to get up to speed. I'm not a deep jazz nerd, but I enjoy it. And I was curious. And we had a great conversation.

That's on Thursday at Vicar Street in Dublin on Wednesday, this Wednesday, October 26. Then I'm in Oklahoma City at the Tower Theater on Wednesday, November 2nd. Dallas, Texas at the Majestic Theater on Thursday, November 3rd. San Antonio at the Tobin Center for the Performing Arts for two shows on Friday, November 4th. And Houston at the Cullen Theater at Wortham Center on Saturday, November 5th. Then I'm in Long Beach, California at the Carpenter Performing Arts Center on Saturday, November 12th. Eugene, Oregon at the Holt Center for the Performing Arts on Friday, November 18th. And Bend, Oregon at the Tower Arts on Friday, November 18th, and Bend, Oregon at the Tower

Theater on Saturday, November 19th. In December, I'm in Asheville, North Carolina at the Orange Peel for two shows on Friday, December 2nd, and then Nashville, Tennessee. I'm at the James K. Polk Center on Saturday, December 3rd, and my HBO special taping is at Town Hall in New York City on Thursday, December 8th. Go to wtfpod.com slash tour for all dates and ticket info. And since I'm still overseas and have no guitar, here's more of me playing songs with guests who have been on the show. This is me and Dan Zanes from the Del Fuegos playing Catch That Train. well everybody's talking about a day up out the lake let's get our bands and guitars and all the food we can take i'll meet you on the corner when the sun decides

to break, come on catch that train come on catch it, catch that train well I don't mind the station, I don't mind going underground

kinda like the symphony of a thousand different sounds In another twenty minutes We'll all be country bound So catch that train Come on, catch it, catch that train Alright, take it away Alright It's a topsy-turvy world All right.

It's a topsy-turvy world we're all living in today. Let's take a trip before the summer sun has gone astray. When we ride, we ride together. And so I say catch that train Come on, catch it, catch that train Look out of the window, watch the world go flying past Every river, town and village as they come and go so fast. We'll fill the day with memories and I know they're going to last. Come on.

Come on, catch it. Catch that train. And we'll all be country band. Come on, catch it, catch that train All right. Nice.