WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1378 - Ron Carter

Episode Date: October 27, 2022

Ron Carter is one of the architects of modern jazz. The Guinness Book of World Records cites him as the most recorded bassist in history and his influence has stretched well beyond jazz to a host of musical genres and styles. Marc talks with Ron about the dichotomies of his career, being a session musician and a band leader, a teacher and an eternal student, a maestro in concert halls and a regular in nightclubs. Ron explains how his output is all part of a responsibility he accepted long ago, one that continues today as he carries the flag of jazz throughout the world. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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It's winter, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs, mozzarella balls, and arancini balls? Yes, we deliver those. Moose? No. But moose head? Yes. Because that's alcohol, yes we deliver those moose no but moosehead yes because that's alcohol and we deliver that too along with your favorite restaurant food groceries and other everyday

essentials order uber eats now for alcohol you must be legal drinking age please enjoy responsibly product availability varies by region see app for details all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening this is mark maron talking it's me i'm talking how's it going what's going on with you i you, you know, I've been away a long time. I'm ready to come home. Hopefully if all is working correctly, I will be on my way home as you listen to this. I will be flying transatlantically. So much has happened. So much has happened since Monday. I go into a depth with some stuff on the bonus content. If you're not part of the WTF Plus party, there's bonus content over there.

I woke up and I talked for 20 minutes, kind of groggy but thoughtful about some stuff that I did. So that's over there. That is over there at the bonus content in WTF Plus land, which I believe is like five bucks a month. Bunch of bonus content. More me for you. But anyway, interesting thing happened, actually. Well, first, let me say that Ron Carter is on the show today. Ron Carter is the most recorded jazz bassist in history. He's played with all of the greats. He's been a maestro himself for decades and decades. He was with Miles Davis's second great quintet, many solo records. do sort of a deep dive myself because as much as I love jazz, I still can't wrap my brain around the expanse of jazz. But he's the subject of the new documentary, Ron Carter, Finding the Right

Notes, which is very informative and sort of puts him in to context and also gives him the rightful place he deserves as one of the architects of modern jazz and also sort of celebrates the expanse of his incredible talent and uh and he's a great guy as well but just to prepare for Ron Carter I it was sort of a panic but the bottom line is is that I I like to listen to jazz I like to listen to all kinds of jazz, but I'm no jazz scholar. I do love it, and I do like learning about it. And just getting into Ron Carter and seeing all the different stuff.

I mean, he's been on over 2,300 records. And that Miles Davis period, the Miles Davis Quintet, the second one, the one that he was in with Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter, Tony Williams, I mean, that's just such a small part of this guy's life, and he's still at it. So I really had to humble myself, do what I could do in terms of understanding his place

in the history of music and his influence in the history of music that almost if you play bass if you play a note of bass whether you know it or not you are influenced by uh ron carter but i enjoyed doing the research listening to a lot of his solo work over the years listening to the stuff he did with other people you you know, whether it be Freddie Hubbard, Lee Morgan, McCoy Tyner, Horace Silver, Chet Baker. You know, it's just crazy. And he played on that first Paul Simon record, which is great. Roberta Flack's first record, I believe.

first record I believe anyway just getting into it it was one of those things where you you not only appreciate an artist but you know to really appreciate the bass the subtleties and the depth and you know what he did how he opened up the portal and the the range of the instrument it's uh it was a phenomenal it was a phenomenal experience and I went to see him when I was in New York as I might have mentioned when I was in. And I went to see him when I was in New York, as I might've mentioned when I was in New York, I went to see him play at Birdland with a trio, you know, a guitar player and a guy on the piano there. And it was great. The audience was great. Jazz audiences. It's, it's, you could hear a pin drop and he's playing that double bass, that big acoustic instrument. It's a beautiful instrument to hear plucked and moved around about.

The squeaks and the slides and the thump that you can feel it, man. He had this amazing guitar player with him, this guy, Russell Malone. He's this piano player, Donald Vega. But the audience is so polite and feeling it. You know, you got to feel stuff. You got to feel the humanness of certain types of performance. I don't know that we appreciate it in the age of arenas, in the age of content providers, in the age of short attention spans, in the age of hyper- produced sound to really deal with the authentic thing of a guy sitting there playing bass in a trio at birdland mildly amplified the sort of human engage the human touch of jazz especially of of that instrument. It was just, it was phenomenal.

It was phenomenal to sit there and it was phenomenal to see him do it. And I just have one of those brains that interfaces with that stuff. It's relaxing to me. But anyways, the nature of performing, I mean, I kind of like to talk about it a little bit. The nature of performing as a performer. Because I've seen, I came to Dublin, and this is in reference to jazz and to anything that sort of requires you to pay attention to the actual human touch, to the human sound, to the human presence presence to being engaged with that i was in london at the boomsbury theater it was sunday night now look whether you guys know me or not or you know what i'm capable of or not as a comic i've been doing this my entire life really my entire adult life i've spent on a stage of one kind or another talking to people and I was in London and it was at that Bloomsbury theater about 520 seats and I'm doing

the stand-up show and stage right in the balcony there is a woman who's being a drunky, talky, chatty, wants to talk to me. And within the first hour of the show I'm doing right now, you know, I kind of dealt with her politely, you know, tried to got some laughs with her. Was not an asshole, which I which I can be. I did not abuse her or give her that kind of attention, though she did want attention. And I was trying to diplomatically get her to ease out of it so I could kind of continue my show

without coming down on her in a nasty way. Like, okay, I get it. You're a little drunk. You want some attention, fine. So I can do that because I'm a professional comedian and I know that within the comedy experience everyone knows that happens and it does i can deal with it but interesting thing happened because there is a point in the show that i'm doing now

where i talk comedically and in a funny way about my experience with grief and with Lynn Shelton's passing. But there is a shift in tone to it. And I'm conscious of it, that I need to show up with a certain amount of openness or vulnerability. I don't know what it is, but there is a weight to carrying the ideas of grief onto a comedy stage. And I'm aware of it. I don't want to trivialize it. So I have to enter it whole and not really that guarded. So when I started that section of the show after diplomatically shutting up the woman in the balcony,

I started that section and I mentioned, you know, Lynn's passing and that woman whistled. And I said, are you fucking kidding me? You're whistling at this moment? You have to go. And she says, no, I'm a fan of this sort of trust. I'm like, you have to go go you have to go now because I want to do this material and I don't want you here you have to go and she's like all right well

and and they were she was gone they they left and supported by the venue and I had to re-engage back into this situation I was you know it was fucking profoundly disappointing and aggravating that lack of ability to behave like a fucking audience member like a person who respects a person who's performing after you know i fucking met her halfway and you know and honestly it was just it wasn't shocking but it was just it was kind of surprising and i didn't want to destroy the tenor of the performance and i did want to do the material but i needed to get back to it. So I had them removed. And when they were gone, I reentered the zone, which is one of comedy, in order to do the material I wanted to do. Not so much safely, but without worrying about being hijacked by profound insensitivity and just fucking shameless impoliteness

in the context of a performance. And it stuck with me. It stuck with me because, you know, I've seen a couple of plays since I've been away. I told you I saw that Eureka Day away. I told you I saw that Eureka Day in London, but then I went to see this other show here in Ireland. Like I got to Ireland and I went to, it's weird how we kind of get into patterns and, you know, whether they're based on memory or what. The last time I was here, I was with Lynn Shelton, you know, on our way up to the North country where we spent a couple of weeks. It was a pretty amazing trip. And so it is an emotional return in some ways and a sad one. There's an absence to it. My point is I get off the plane. There's a restaurant I go to. I go to this cornucopia place, which is this kind of old school kind of hippie vegetarian that I enjoy.

And I just wanted to do things. I didn't want to get stuck just hanging around this one or two blocks of Grafton Street. There are places I go to buy tweeds. I had to stop myself from buying hats or sweaters, things I won't wear or will wear once. I did buy a kit, a hat at the Tweed place that I usually go to. So there's just stops I have here, but I made sure that like, you know, I just looked around to see what was happening. And there was a play going on at the Abbey Theater, which is, you know, the, it's like a historic joint, a historic venue. And the play that was there was based on a book I knew nothing about.

But I was like, I'm going to go. It looked heavy. It was called The Solar Bones. It was starring this guy, Stanley Townsend. I didn't know who did it. Adapted by Michael West. I didn't know the book. Directed by someone named Lynn Parker,

but it looked heavy. It looked intense. And I was just sort of on a theater jack. So I bought tickets to that without knowing anything about it. And then when I got to my hotel room, somebody from Dublin said Angel Olsen was playing at the venue that I'll be playing at. And I was like, holy shit. So I remember, you know,aron von enten open for angels and so i text sharon von enten in the states to text angel or angels tour manager and she texted from the states the tour manager to get me two seats i only needed one uh at the venue that i'm performing at vicar street and i went to see angel olsen thank you sharon Van Etten for setting me up. But, uh, but yeah, and it was great with this big band at Vicar street in Dublin with, uh, with, uh, I think a viola and a cello.

It might've been a violin, um, keyboards, drums. She's on guitar, a guitar player. It was great. She was great. So I watched the whole thing. Didn't even split after 45 minutes, which is my MO. And then I went to see The Solar Bones, and I was profoundly moved by this theatrical piece based on this book, an hour and a half, hour 35 monologue primarily, taken from this book, of a guy who was visiting his house as basically an apparition, pulling his life together, thinking about his life. But the point is, the performance. I don't go to enough theater. What I do is kind of theater, but it kind of makes me think like, maybe I want to do a little theater, like for real. And this play was so beautiful. I had to buy the book and the book is like, was a big book here. The solar bones by Mike McCormack. And I'm now I'm

reading the book because stuff that I see on stage, whether it's comedy or theater or anything resonates with me more than anything else, because most of the stuff we take in is really falls under the rubric. Is that the word of the umbrella of content? You know, we're all just fucking zeitgeist termites chomping away, not defined by anything, but our appetite to fucking keep feeding on bits and pieces of information branded a certain way, but to sit and engage with another person for as long as they can hold you or even longer. Sometimes you got to sit. Sometimes you got to wait. Sometimes you might doze, but that's all right. You're in connection. You're in an exchange of emotions and ideas with another human in the theater. But then I bought the book today. It was the last copy

they had and I'm thrilled. I mean, it's like like it's kind of brilliant i gotta read more i've got to enjoy life and if this is what it is that i enjoy is engaging with theater and books and thinking and jazz fuck it gotta get my brain out of the termite zone zeitgeist termites heading towards fascism and figure out who I am and how I feel and what to say in the face of it all based on stuff that I take in that's beautiful. And Ron Carter's definitely one of these cats making the real shit for a long time, the real music. It was an honor to talk to this guy. And again, before I kind of set him up here, Ron Carter, Finding the Right Notes, just premiered on PBS. You can stream it now at pbs.org and PBS digital platforms. And this is me talking to Ron in New York City. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats.

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T's and C's apply. I'm very honored and in awe to speak to you. I will say that. Right at the onset there. You know, I was at the show last night. I mean, a quick question about that show or just about like watching you live for the first time for me. Now, you know, do you come away like this morning

with, did you have moments that you remember today? Yes. You did? Yes. You know, what my, I generally talk not so much and as I've gotten to be a band leader, I've talked more generally talk not so much. And as I've gotten to be a band leader, I've talked more and more just to retain,

and as the audience gets physically closer and closer, it's kind of necessary to have a verbal contact with them, do that, do some words. Yeah, yeah. I just don't go, do, do, do, do, do, do, do. No, no, I got a vocabulary. Yeah, yeah. And I have a friend who said, Ron Maestro,

the audience is coming back to live again. Yeah. And the people who come to see you, they want to hear you. They want to hear your voice. Right, yeah. They want to talk. They want to hear you verbalize feelings. Yeah, yeah.

And so I decided to do a little more introduction to the songs. Sure. A little lighthearted humor that's not just all grim. There's some happiness up here, which makes it easy to play this music. And so I've come up with two things that kind of engage them. And the New York audience love that stuff. Yeah, yeah, sure. I said the other day, I've got three quick questions, and here's number two.

And New York gets that, man. Yeah, yeah, right, yeah. But it helps them get in my pocket. Right, sure, yeah. And I want that verbal connection to tie them into my thought process as I planned the program two days ago. Uh-huh. So you do it that quick.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. And when I have them, it makes planning the program easier. And also, I think that there's something i noticed about watching jazz and about uh the experience of it there there's always something interesting to me going all the way back where you know when someone's soloing and and everyone else just literally hanging around smoking a cigarette almost right i've noticed it well I think I've literally seen that waiting thing. And there's not a politeness, but there's a respect in a jazz room

that seems a little austere, right? So I think that when you talk and open your heart just a little bit, it brings people into a different space. The respects get deeper in a way. Well, I know, if I can just go back a minute, one of the reasons that when I do a solo piece,

I want the band on the bandstand. I want the audience to see the musicians are completely engaged in what this solo person is playing. They're not on their iPad, they haven't gone to the bar, they aren't doing whatever thing to do with them, they haven't disappeared. And once the musician

leaves the bandstand people's focus is on him leaving right not necessarily what's going on as he's leaving sure and once I get them

the bands to be involved with the band playing the audience responds to that they say man I don't know what that guy's going to do

by himself but these other guys they want to watch yeah I want that yeah everyone was connected I want that. Yeah. Everyone was connected.

I want them to be up on the bandstand emotionally. Yeah. And once I get them to see, in this case, Russell Malone and Don Vega enjoying or being pleased or being amazed or questioning how I do that or what music I'm trying to do, they're already there, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the image of the TV where they have the musicians puffing on cigarettes or whatever,

that's just for TV, that's just for that separate audience. We're playing with people who breathe just like us. Sure, yeah. I'm trying to find their breathing rhythm more or less to help them help me find things to do that makes them hold that breath. Yeah. Well I noticed, I noticed when you. It was great man.

Yeah, yeah, and when you're playing, like I was wondering that last night, like do you, are you aware of how you're breathing and when you breathe? Oh yeah, yes man. That's just a sentence, I got a sentence going. Yeah, yeah. These are my commas, my exclamation points

and my questions or my, sometimes I just kinda just scrape the bass, my exclamation points, and my questions, or my, sometimes I just kinda just scrape the bass, I just go frustrated, I can't figure out what these notes are coming out. They see that. And I'm breathing just like they're breathing. And I'm gonna let it go, you hear this. Yeah, yeah.

And like, but like in terms of what I was bringing up like about last night, was there a point of departure where, you know, because I've heard you speak about this and I speak about it in some of what I do when I do comedy. That, you know, once you lay down the foundation of what you're doing, right, which is essential. Yeah. Structure, foundation.

Form. Form. Then, you know, then you can take off a little bit. Yeah. And that's where you don't know what's going to happen. Absolutely. Well, you have an idea because you you don't know what's gonna happen. Absolutely. Well, you have an idea, because you're planning for.

There's a context. Yes. Right, okay. So, but it's like a gift. Yes. Right? That I'm afraid to accept sometimes. Why, because you can't understand?

Yes. And I don't want to know too much more than what I do. Right. One of the hard things about teaching, Mark, for me, is students would ask very, very important questions. That's their job. Yeah, right. And my job is to respond as best I can at that moment to answer that specific question.

Right. But sometimes those questions are so penetrating and so amazingly naive that they're very powerful. Sure. And to answer those questions, it makes me think about, well, how do I do that?

Yeah. And why do I do that? Yeah. I love the mystery of not knowing that. You can't explain that moment. But they ask. I know, right.

And I gotta find a way to have them understand that that's okay. I don't have an answer right. And I got to find a way to have them understand that that's okay. I don't have an answer either, but I try to do it every night. That's why I go to work every night. But that's like the fleeting gift of it. Yes, of course. And once they see that, they come back tomorrow night.

Yeah. Are you going to do it again? Yeah, who knows? It's called a fan club. Yeah. Yeah, they're waiting. You're like an astronaut. They want to see if you get to space.

That's correct. Yeah, but like because when it happens to me like sometimes you know in that moment that that's if if it wasn't recorded the only witnesses i have is me and them and i love that me too you know you know once it's gone yeah it's not really gone yeah because it's gone that they can't reproduce it tomorrow that's right right but it's been released absolutely yeah so is that how you sort of i was trying to think about from from the beginning so you you know you've been on you know 2200 summer records yeah and i and six and six okay and i have to i have to assume on some level this is uh an ongoing conversation yes that you have to that in, that this is not just like, this is my work or this is,

you know, this record or that record. This is one continuous movement through my life, through the music, through my expression. My experiences. It's all out there. Yes.

Yes. So going back, like to where, when you grew up, when the moment that you decided that the music was going to be for you, do you remember that, you remember it as a calling? Well, you know, let's not go back that far. Yeah.

I'm celebrating my 85th birthday this year. Yeah. You asked me to subtract a whole lot of years. Yeah. Having said, if you can go back, just an example was 1963, as you saw. Well, yeah, that's a good example, yeah. Yeah.

I was with a group, I was playing music with a bunch of guys. And part of the song had some tags at the end of the song, they just kind of keep playing the same eight bars over and over and over and over, you know? And at some point, I heard some different notes. I heard some different changes. And some guys in the band, they didn't think that was okay. They had another view of one, six, four, five, one.

They were happy with that. Mark, I was no longer happy with that. I knew what that was. I had already done that on that record or on that gig. But I'm hearing another concept. He said, wait a minute, there must be another way to find a set of notes that makes not just the music feel different, but makes the band feel different.

Yeah, and then you chased it. Yeah, and I was doing that, and these guys were reluctant. And it got to the point, man, where we were ready to go outside about this thing, man. Oh yeah, oh yeah. I said, wait a minute. And somebody said, guys, it's only a B flat fucking seven, okay?

Just sit down with that stuff, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I said, no, man, it's important to have this guy understand that why would I allow myself to be just a palm tree and this guy gets all the desserts? No, I want to be in front of the palm tree for a change. Right.

Rhythmically, harmonically, all that stuff. Yeah. And I was willing to go outside with this guy because it got down to that kind of personal level. Then I realized, Mark, if the music means so much to me, if my point of view for me is now found so valid and it's so concrete, and I can see where I can go with this, if it means making that really happen for me

to go outside with these persons and duke it out in the street while it's looking like Linus and his peanuts, I'm willing to do that. I said, well, okay, well, if that's what I'm feeling, I gotta work on what that is. And you might as well work it out with a drummer as opposed to with your fists.

Yes, or a stick, whatever, or a baseball. Because I noticed, even just trying to get up to speed that the difference between you know just for you between like 1961 you know with eric dolphy and 1969 with uh you know uptown conversation stylistically is profound so like when you're coming up, do you know where you're sort of entering the sort of legacy of jazz before you? Do you know? Well, you know, I think I can listen to that now and analyze that.

When I just spent, I call it a big intermission. My students recommended certain records to me because I had never heard them since. Your records? Yeah. And I can see I was developing something that I did not have the vocabulary to express. And some of that Eric Dolphy record, where,

I knew what was happening but I didn't know what it was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I didn't know whether I wanted to pursue that because I thought that maybe it was more Eric's baseball to carry, you know? But I knew that I had an impact then on my note choices. It changed Eric's immediacy of doing what he's going to do. I didn't understand the power of the bass at that time.

I just knew it did something. Right. So that's it. It's like harnessing the power for yourself. Yeah, understanding. Yeah, yeah. That I can control all these items, man, by just the right note, man.

Yeah. And as I tell you this, I sit here, man, fortunately I'm sitting down, because it's the kind of thought that knocks you on your ass. You mean to tell me if you play F sharp on this note, it stops the band? Yes. And you saw that the other night.

Yeah, yeah. Well, I mean, because I've tried to consider that knowing that you started in classical and knowing that you still play classical at times, and then you bring what you've learned from your other experience in music to a classic. Yes. Yes. Because I'm sort of a student of it.

Like, jazz to me is almost too big a universe for me to wrap my brain around. But you know, I, I can listen to it and I listened to it a lot and I know certain guys and I know certain things, but I don't know how the whole structure of things works. I can't talk too many numbers. I mean,

I'm a guitar player. I can do one, four, five, maybe one other thing, but that's about it. So when you put a foundation down of classical, you know, what does that give you?

Well, two things. It gives you a sense of what structure is and how really important it is to the success of this particular melody or this set of chords. And the other thing it gives me is the understanding if I change one note of this sequence, it's now my sequence.

And I'm starting to appreciate that. Right, so when you were playing, you started playing cello, and the opportunity came to play bass, you already knew the music, right? Well, I understood the consequences. Yeah. But the reason I switched instruments

had nothing to do with music in and of itself. Yeah. Ultimately, Mark, it was the situation where I wanted to be treated equally. Of course that affects music when you've got orchestras and satin jazz groups, but I just wanted to be equally in terms of the opportunities that were available to me. I wanted to be able to say, no, I don't want to do that gig.

Right. Rather than waiting for an invitation that never came. Right. So, you know, you found yourself pushed out. Yes, not wanted. Not getting opportunities. That's correct. But not because of your talent.

No. Just because of race. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. So, I mean, that's an interesting story in the doc. I liked it where, you know, it was that, there was, they lost their bass player and there were no other options. Yeah.

And you realize like, well I can take that. I can do that, absolutely. I was prepared, I practiced, like everybody, I practiced X number of hours a day, I knew the library. I was getting some real skill. I was showing some real unique talent in interpreting the music. I couldn't understand why that wasn't enough anymore.

Yeah. You know? And when the bass player graduated, I said, well, one from one leaves zero. I can fill that slot. And this wasn't in Manhattan. No, in New York City. Oh, it was in New York City.

It was in Cass Tech. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 19, let's see. Is it graduate school now? No, no, no. I, it was in New York City. It was in Cass Tech. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 19... Is it graduate school now? No, no, no. I was a senior in high school, man. Oh, it was high school, right. In 1952, something like that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So by the time you get going with jazz, though, like Big Band was kind of done, right? Less popular. By the time you got in, right? Yeah. And you had a lot of cats that were coming out of big bands

starting to do the bop thing, right? Bird, Dizzy. Yeah, yeah. But they were in big bands back then, though. With Lester Young, right? Yeah, yeah. Coleman Hawkins. Right, Coleman Hawkins.

You got to play with him, right? Yeah, man. It's called the Hawk Flies. Yeah, yeah. He came by my apartment with this Chrysler 300 series. Yeah, yeah. and he said and you bring my doorbell said Mr. Gardner I said oh man my wife who was that and I'm going to send I'm going to Harkins and we have this recording uh within an hour from now can you come to the

date with me he's got in the car I'm gonna do about the Rudy Van Gelder's yeah in Jersey yeah I made this record with Tommy Flanagan and Eddie Lockjaw Davis. I said, man, if heaven is better than this, send me a brochure. And that's the way it kind of went sometimes. Yeah, I can't believe this. I can't believe that I'm here because these guys know other choices. Right. And who was your first gig with?

The first big gig was Chico Hamilton. And he came out of that, right? Yeah. Like Count Basie and some other stuff? Absolutely, from California style. Yeah, and what's the difference? California and New York? I think it's the aggressiveness of the music. In New York? The players. Yeah. They just go hell bent.

Wherever it is, let's just play loud and fast. You got whole people here. And in California, it's fewer people. You got the palm trees. It's a great environment. Yeah. But New York has another edge to it. And those edge players always edge toward New York. Yeah, yeah.

Who was the drummer in that one? Chico was the drummer in that band, but Charlie Persip was the band recording band. Oh, yeah, right, right. He came out of Dage of Gillespie's band. Okay. So the big band was still flourishing, but on a different level.

Most studios in New York had bands, big bands. I miss those days. I wanted to hear how the arrangements work and what kind of sound did they get. Can I be in the band with 16 guys and have the bass player be as necessary as the band leader or the piano player in those bands? Well, starting next week, I got a 16-piece band.

I call it my 16-piece quartet. And in this band, it's the top of the cream of the crop in New York. I'm looking forward to directing, literally, these 15 guys into the way I think they should play this music. Interesting. And, man, it's going to be great, man. Yeah, it's got to be great. But over the years, you've done different versions

of big bands, right? Yeah, and I just never stopped to understand what I was doing. And it's back to our earlier question. It seems that the luster and the mystery, the escape that the jazz players have, in this case, jazz players, that doesn't allow them at that moment to understand what took place

and how they're able to make this phrase just show up out of, theoretically, air. I love not knowing that. But that's not enough. It's time to figure out how I can do this again. Well, at least most of it. Yes, absolutely, whatever I can recall. But in terms of when you're coming into it absolutely whatever I can recall but when you

like in terms of like when you're coming into it like cause I can't even like I can't imagine what it must have been like when big bands were the popular music yeah man

you know and how many people in a is it 16 in a in my band yes but like in a standard big band

yeah 5 saxophones 4 trumpets 4 reeds 4 rhythm yeah 16, 15 depending on arrangements now did you go back Yes. But like in a standard big band? Yeah, five saxophones, four trumpets, four reeds, four of them. Yeah, 16, 15, depending on arrangements. Now, did you go back and try to like sort of at least deconstruct like Ellington or Basie or any of those cats?

No. You don't? I wasn't that interested in that kind of construct. I was interested in the results of it. I mean, you get the saxophone section's riff and the guitar player playing chomp, chomp, chomp. Just the combination of these various spices, how personal they made the band sound.

Count Basie's band sounded different from Duke Ellington's band and Stan Kenton's band. So you focused on the sound of the player. Yeah. You weren't that interested in the composition necessarily. Not necessarily. No, the form is relative to everybody. It's got the same kind of form concept. Yeah. You weren't that interested in the composition necessarily. Not necessarily. No, the form is relative to everybody.

It's got the same kind of form concept. Yeah, that's right. Call comes from the same well in a way. Yeah, but Duke hired players

who gave him his song from that specific player. Yeah, yeah. Harry Carney, you know, Jimmy Blanton, they added a certain spice

that Duke needed for his band. Right, right. And that appealed to me. I said, wow, this guy, Duke Allen, he knows what sound he needs to make his band. Right, right. And that appealed to me. Said, wow, this guy, Duke Allen,

he knows what sound he needs to make his band do what Duke wants it to do. Right. That's amazing to me. So that got in your head. It's like, I got a sound. Yeah, yeah. How am I gonna get that sound out?

Yeah, and how can I make it happen every night? Right. The consistency thing is important. Absolutely, yeah. I wanna open the bass case and say, this night I'm going to sound like last night because the sound was perfect for me. That's what I'm trying to get my students to understand. Right.

And not everybody's like that, right? Well, I think that they get caught up in other things of the instrument. Right. And that works for them. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But what's working for me is that, and fortunately I've had a little son

so you can't see me blush. But when someone plays a record that I'm on, those people who know the music, they know who that is. Right, they know your sound in a second. And I've worked for that since back then. Yeah. And I'm working on it as we speak from last night's concert.

Can I, we've got a big band of 16 pieces speak from last night's concert can I we got a big band of 16 pieces and it's just me can I make the same kind of sound for the three guys as I can for 16

well yeah I mean do you think you can absolutely come on check me out well that's what interesting

is also about about this about tone you know it's personal. The instrument itself. And your hands and the kind of strings you have. What consistency you bring to the

instrument. It's the same thing night in and night out. So the instrument, in this case bass, resolves and sounds based on what you make it do. But your bass, that bass that you have now. For 60 years. 60 years. And the strings, you use the same strings all the time. Well, they've evolved over the years.

That's new material. They get better, right? Basically, yeah. But the feel of it, every little scratch and sound. I like that feeling. And I think that what's interesting for me about jazz in that you guys, you do like nine records a day. It's just the amount of recording.

Playing, too. that's it the playing yeah but but there's something about the the rawness of jazz production certainly early on sure where you're not you're not you're not screwing with it you know you want to get the pure sound absolutely so you're looking for spaces that give you the pure sound yes and and that's why you know i imagine that you have you know like Gelder, it was Magic Place? Yes, to praise him. Yeah, Magic Place. Yeah. Why?

He understood how to record the instrument. I would go out to Rudy's in the early 60s on Saturdays. We'd spend three or four hours. Rudy wanted to know, how do I record the bass? How best can I record it? Where in my studio room should the bass player be in this room to make the bass sound most effective sonically? He wasn't worried about the notes, he wanted the sound of the instrument. We would experiment with different pickups, because

that was in the earlier days of pickup development. He had all these microphones. So he put a pickup on the instrument as opposed to a mic on it yes yeah we did all that on and off sure microphone two feet away four feet away this kind of microphone yeah find what areas yeah yeah what's the playing of sound yeah yeah and we would spend like three or three hours for about four or five months just figuring out where in this room with this gear would the bass sound best? Right. And once we kind of doped that out, my job was to make sure my hands were in condition,

the bass was a good instrument. I remembered, we got this sound by me doing X, Y, and Z. I must do the same X, Y, and Z for the sound of this record that we agree is what we want to hear. Right. With Rudy Tomorrow. Right. And then the following day we agree is what we want to hear. Right. But really tomorrow. Right. And then the following day.

Yeah. And then the following day. Right. Here we are at night, it's 2022. I'm still doing that kind of concept. Well, I know, I noticed in the doc, you know, when you were recording, they showed you in the booth doing that.

I don't know who you were working with there. But you were working on a take. You were emotionally exhausted. But I noticed an intensity that you're very hard on yourself. I expect me to deliver a certain level of performance, man. I get it. I get it. But do you ever give yourself a break?

Yeah, when I have lunch. Yeah. All right. Yeah. But so that sound that you were able to get they you know it seems to me like and i don't always understand tone but like if i listen to the really early stuff where you're kind of figuring shit out and then when you you you know everything starts to take shape you know the tone of the notes your runs yeah the sliding business yeah i mean do you remember those moments where you figured out how to slide into things

and do that stuff? Well, I think the issue, Mark, is it's not so much doing it, it's where does it belong in the music? Okay, yeah. And my constant concern is, am I doing it in the wrong tune? Is it the wrong set of chords?

How do you determine that stuff? Playing off the artist? Doing it and finding out that it didn't work. I didn't hear it so much, I saw it, just me. I gotta play with you to find out did this slide affect him and is it in the wrong place? Is it the wrong key? Is it too gosh?

Is it too aggressive? What's that thing on the top? It's extension, it allows the bass to go down to low C. Okay, can you pull on it too aggressive? What's that thing on the top? It's extension. It allows the bass to go down to like low C. Okay. Can you pull on it too? Yeah, yeah. This is the first one. Yours is the first one?

Yeah. You invented it? Well, some guy in Cincinnati invented it. He said, come try this out. I said, well, if I don't like it, can we fix it? He said, we can put it back to where it was. So I went down there, man, and he put it on, and the rest is history. Yeah, I mean, I've never seen it before.

It's called an extension. A lot of dudes use it now? Oh, yeah. There's a clamp that and the rest is history. Yeah, I mean, I've never seen it before. It's called an extension. Why, do dudes use it now? Oh, yeah. There's a clamp that opens it and closes it to the open seat. I saw it.

It closes it on the fret, on the... First fret, basically. The nut. Yeah. And that's on an open seat. It's nice sounding. But I think my friends tell me

that that's the inspiration for electric bass players adding an extension to their instrument. Some of them have five strings. Yeah. Yeah. Four is enough, man. Yeah. I talked to a thundercat you listen to thundercat yeah a fabulous guy man yeah nice guy anthony jackson steve bailey all those guys they just play just out of this world man well so when you like i noticed that there are guys that you've played

a lot with like i mean like 50 records worth yeah yeah with so i assume that these relationships because you know you're talking as as a guy who does his thing focuses on the notes you know wants to show up and do the right notes for the right gig but i have to assume that over time even seeing you and herbie talk you know on in the doc on zoom like you've done like 80 records with him one way or another yeah yeah so you must have uh an evolving conversation with these guys that go way back yes like in in terms of of of drummers you know in terms like what well tony williams and the quintet but then then there was other guys too that you played the great grady tate and Connie Kaye and Billy Joe Jones. Right, so is there something that happens

between you and all these different guys? Yes. What? Two things, three things happen. Right. I bring a love, a reputation of being able to deliver, whatever the delivery is. Secondly, I understand that when I go to these projects,

I leave my ego at home and bring a spare set of ears so I can hear in stereo. I wanna hear everything that these guys do who I'm affecting what they do. And the third thing is when I walk in the door of these studios, Mark, or these clubs, those guys know that the level of music just went up 35% because I'm there. Yeah. And I can only get that respect by delivering each time the bass comes out of that case.

Right. and that's what makes the drive in me with these responsibilities that I've accepted. Right. Being the place that these various acts who are not jazz bands call me because they think that this person, me, can add a certain level of difference to their project that gives them that special spice

that they think their project can only get if this guy is on it. You mean like Popax? Yeah. Like you know Paul Simon, Roberta Flack, Tribe Called Quiet, whoever. Yes, yes. Because that Paul Simon album is my favorite record.

And you're all over that thing. Yeah, and what amazes me, they have other choices, man. Sure, man. I never worried about why they picked me. I just got a job to do. Can I make this guy appreciate that he made the right choice by doing what i think it's gonna make him really sound better because i'm standing there right but you know that about yourself yes not saying like right i hope i can give them the sound they want no no no

you're just saying like you know i hope i can that that what i do fits this thing thank you very much right yeah so when do you start like you know just in terms of evolving you know the form you know jazz in and of itself yeah right because you know you're you're an architect of modern jazz right so when does that when do you feel that shift starting to happen because you you're recording that that solo record is like your second or third solo at the the uptown conversation but like how it seems to me that jazz although reflecting the times it's of still floats above the time like it's its own different zone but there's all these things going on within the music yes you in the mid 60s. So who, like, I know you play with Miles,

but I also know you play with Freddie Hubbard a ton, and Lee Morgan, who I love. Art Farmer, Chet Baker. Chet Baker, that's a whole other thing, right? But this is all moving to music for us. So which conversations with which guys did you find the most provocative to you? Well, you know, I think that's an easy question to answer

that I never really answer. Yeah. Because that implies that the names I don't mention who affect it. Sure, I get it. Yeah, yeah, sure. That the other guys were lesser influential on me. Right.

And that's not the case at all. So I have to find, I've learned a better way to answer that is that each of those trumpet players for example the art Chet Miles yeah Freddie yeah you know Ernie Royals Snooki Young the big band guys yeah yeah Emmett Berry yeah each one of those guys were as teacher right and my job is to understand what the classwork is. What is it, though, with a trumpet player? Because I don't know.

I don't play jazz. A lot of the factors physically with those guys are lips and chops and stuff like that. But I think they all have a certain need to know if they don't play, who will pick up that slot? Yeah, yeah. And Clark Terry, for example. Yeah. Who's the guy who they can hire that if he doesn't play for three notes,

can make his three notes not missed? Right. And I've been able to find out what note I can play. Sometimes silent, though, right? Yes, yeah. I can determine that with this guy. That's right. I'm the person who turns a dial.

Right. Yeah, yeah. And certain guys respond quicker than Don Ellis. He kind of like played outside all the time. He's a big band guy too, right? Yeah, he's out in California. He left New York after a record called How Time Flies with Jackie Veyer and Charlie Persib, 62.

But I try to sense where they think that they want the music to go, and if they don't play this measure, or this four notes, if I play two notes, is that more than enough? Yeah, right, right. And they trust in my sense of paying attention, of being sober, of being on time,

bringing this reputation to the day. You're the sober guy. Yeah, yeah man, back in the, it was all like, okay. We can count on one guy. Yes. I'm okay with that. It's the society at the time, man. Yeah.

And can I find the right notes or the right intensity by my presence? Guys, enough, okay? You guys are fooling around. Let's get this party started quickly. Two, three, four, bam. So sometimes were you the guy in the room where they were sort of like, no, I guess we got to work? Yes, absolutely.

Yeah. And with that comes pressure to deliver. Yeah. So I have to be able to maintain my status with these guys. Yeah. Because they're controlling how much work everybody gets. Yeah.

And when you're playing, like when you work, because also like I'm late to appreciating jazz guitar for some reason, like because I'm kind of a rock guy, a blues guy. Once I got into jazz,

it was all about horns and the quintet or the four guys. But you work a lot with guitar guys. Yes, yes. Like, you know, you did like 100 records with George Benson. Yeah, and Jim Hall. Yeah. And just lovely people who I learned from

who allowed me to teach them what was necessary. Like, what is that? Like like you're dealing with an instrument that has at least four of the same strings. Yeah. So, but like what is it, what's the big difference between working with guitar band leaders and horn leaders? I think the difference is the sound of the instrument. Yeah.

The power, the physical power. Right. And once I understand what the physical range is, that they can be, so my job is to fit in this range where you hear every note I play. I don't care what they play, man. You hear each one of my notes. Well you always do.

Yeah, that's my job. That's why they hire me. I wanna hear all your notes you're playing. Well here's five notes, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they're playing chords. Yeah. Whatever. And I'm trying to find out what note of your chord

or your line do you need to have to fulfill the requirements of that chord you just played. Yeah. And when I get that right, man, the room just stops. Yeah. Like last night. Yeah. Which set?

The first set. Yeah, I was there. We did the first song of the night. Yeah. It kind of set the tone for the whole night. Yeah. And I found some notes, an order of notes that the band kept playing,

but I could see the eyes go like this, man. They opened up, and the awareness of, it's happening. Yeah. The magic thing? This is the magic, this is a magic night that's taking place right here right now because

of those three notes this bass player played that Mark is an amazing feeling but I don't want to know why it happens I just want to enjoy being swamped with this great feeling of well I think that like I think wanting to know why it happens

and chasing it as as important yeah as being part of your character is problematic right because because you can't chase it no i mean you can only work for it right and then if it happens it's a gift but if you're trying to make it happen every night you know i don't know well we try every night to get that special zone you know no no yeah but like you know i i you know i'm not i'm. Well, we try every night to get that special zone, you know? No, no, yeah, but like, you know, I'm not, I'm just, I'm trying to make a connection between like this idea, like that feeling that happens. I mean, you know it's special.

Yeah. You know it's not, you know, it's not gonna happen from the second you start playing every night to the end of the show. But if you're lucky, you're in a pocket, you know, for a third of the show. It just, when it happens and you can realize it. But I think knowing it's special

and knowing that it's not necessarily attainable for the entire, every show is responsible. Yeah, well, wait a minute. You know, speaking of me, earlier we talked about being in touch with the audience conversationally. Yeah, yeah. You know, what I decided to do, Mark,

along the way in my little pattern with the audience, notally. Yeah. You know, what I decided to do, Mark, along the way, in my little pattern with the audience, not encouraging them to talk back, but just to hear me with a voice. Sure. Verbalizing some commentary. Yeah. I mention occasionally that we, the band, at that moment, whatever it is,

have been doing this band job for a really long time. For example, a trio from Russell and Donald last night. And I explained to the audience that we try to play our best and discover stuff every night. But there's a moment in time that when we reach a special plane. Right. And sometimes, as you people, audience, don't see us every night, every set,

that growth, that level of constantly experimenting, you don't really see that. You see the results of that over here somewhere. Sure. Well, you have just seen the results of all our trials and efforts right now for the last set. Right. To pull them into our growth and that we recognize that we just passed a special rainbow.

Yeah. Right. You know, and- For the first time yeah yeah yeah for for them the first time sure and for us another return to this is what this is the zone yeah i think what like that yeah yeah that well i mean i think what i was getting at in in sort of a roundabout way was like you know in dealing with the fact that you approach this you know you know practically you know responsibly soberly and and you're putting that work in like that and you're and you're grounded in that way you're foundational in that you know you're you're responsible and you're not you know high because it feels to me that like in any business whether it's comedy or jazz or something else, that the same thing that drives dudes to stay high, to get to a place,

is a lack of accepting that the special place comes when you earn it. And you're trying to sort of make it happen, to be in a different zone. And it kills you. Well, you know, just to kind of go back, I don't want the audience, your listeners, to feel that I'm necessarily combining or saying

that the drug scene or the need for a narcotic assistance is what this music is all about and that my compatriots, whoever they were or are, were so involved in the drug scene

that I saved the day. No, I'm not saying that at all. No, no, no, right or are, were so involved in the drug scene that I saved the date. No, I'm not saying that at all. No, no, no, right, yeah, yeah. But I've seen guys come to the date just fucked up, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I would get called on the date because the guy knew that I was the guy who was going to be sober enough

that these guys had such a high regard for my ability to play the instrument and help them as the only sober guy on the fucking date, they counted on me to help, they counted, the users, to help them retain a sense of nowness that the drug didn't really give them. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah. You know?

And you don't like doing those dates? I do, because I got better, man. I was even more responsible. Big responsibility. Yes. I'm carrying the weight of all these guys. These guys are big motherfuckers, man.

They play great, man. Right. And I'm the only bass player in the band. Well, let's get this. Okay, let's stop this sucker. Yes. I'll hold it together.

Yes. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I said, well, man, when he walks in the door, man, the date goes up 45% because he's here. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That. I said, well, hey, when he walks in the door, man, the date goes up 45% because he's here. That.

Yeah. And that helps me get to wherever I am when they want to experience it. Right, it's like extra training. You gotta work extra hard. Yeah, it's like other homework. Right, and you can listen, like you probably know there's certain records

where you're like, if I wasn't there. Please, yeah. We don't wanna go that far back. I could tell you some stories at another time. That's just all you could do. Wow. Right? How did we even get a record out of that?

Hello? I bet, man. Yeah, yeah. I bet. So when you play with, I imagine a lot of times guys bring you in to just do what you do. They're not going to tell you what to do. Yes.

But there are guys that are more collaborative. Yes. Where you've got to learn. Yes. They send me some music to look at at my house. Okay. Yeah. And then when you get there.

I just play what they wrote. Right. But are there other times where, because like, you know, I don't know if a lot of people know this. I mean, you know, jazz, if you don't know how to take it in, a lot of people think like, yeah, they're just up there riffing. Absolutely. But you're not.

No. Obviously. There's a concept. There's a plan in place. Of course. Of course. How much of that though, like, let's just talk about, like Freddie Hubbard, like that guy.

Like, was that all on paper? It depends on what you talk about. I'll tell you what, a good example is Red Clay, that record. Okay. He brought in a melody. Yeah. And he said, say, well Ron, I got this song. He goes to the piano, he played really good piano.

Yeah. He played this melody for the piano. He said, but I need an intro to this tune. Can you make an intro to this tune? Yeah. I said, well Freddie, where's it gonna tune? Yeah. I said, well, Freddie, where is it going to go? Yeah. I'm introducing something, Freddie. Right.

What am I introducing? Yeah. What is my melody that I'm making up? What am I setting up? Yeah. Yeah. What is that? Yeah.

He said, oh, it's nothing but this, man. He plays it. Yeah. It's basically like Sonny. Yeah. Oh, yeah. So I said, well, I'm mumbling to my head. Does this work? Yeah. As it turned out, I'm mumbling to my head. Does this work?

Yeah. As it turned out, that was the intro for the tune and everybody who played bass had to learn that line because they went to Freddie Hubbard's tune. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. So that's collaborative as you speak of, is that that level of collaboration between composer and bass player in this case.

Sure. Absolutely. And then that's the interesting thing too because how much bass you've played on how many records is that you put that out into the world and then exponentially hundreds of bass players. Thousands.

Thousands. What's that riff? That's a Ron Carter riff. Absolutely. It makes me kind of blush to be responsible for that but I am. Yeah. You must be sampled a million times. Yeah, and I'm loving it. Yeah.

So when, all right, so like there was some footage or some sound in the documentary, you know, when you're talking to Miles about getting to a place. Now, like I just listened to Nefertiti. Like that riff is a unique riff, right? Because it seems like, you know, the rhythm is being played by the horns

and you guys are going at it underneath it. Now, what's the discussion around something like that? Well, three things. Yeah. And I hope this is one. This seems to be the most critical one of that record, that concept, where they let the tape roll from time we walked in the studio till we left. Okay.

You know, Miles was asking until we left. Okay. Miles was asking us for help. Yeah. He was asking us, hey man, what can we do for this song? Right. My point is that he was open to suggestions from the band members. Was that not common with him? No one knew that.

No one. He thought he was the almighty prince. Yeah. And he would go into the date and just play what he played. Right. This pre- what he played. Right. This pre-recording conversation, it shows how open he was to asking for help from the other four guys in the band

on how this particular song, Nefertiti, would be successful musically. Right. Okay. It's an amazing view of him. I'm sorry people slept on that, because he got this view of Miles being whatever he is. He's an independent guy of him. I'm sorry people slept on that because he got this view of Miles being whatever he is. He's an independent guy of everything.

No, Miles looked to us for help. How could he be? If he's changing like he's changing, then he can't do that. But no one sees that. All they see is that he has changed on his own. But that particular CD of information, it shows Miles asking Tony about a rhythm

or Herbie how to re-voice this chord. Herbie, can you play this voice like this? Or, Wayne, Wayne, Wayne, help me with this. Whatever it is. You say, or, Ron, can you play this kind of rhythm? I said, well, Miles is a little bit awkward for this tempo. If you could slow it down or whatever my comments were. He took them as another way to help his project,

Nefertiti, be successful. Huh. Huh. Yeah, he was collaborative. He's asking for some help. Sure, man. Yeah, and the band who sees this giant asking them to help this project be successful, that raises their level of their presence.

Mm-hmm. Of course. And how important they are to the success of this music. Yeah, because they created it with him. Without his music and helpers, the boss has no help. That's right. But you probably work with guys that just say, shut up, do this, do that, do this.

Well, if they let me shut up, I don't talk to those guys. But there's no collaboration, just they're doing a job. And I don't mind that, but that's part of the job. Right, right. I did a project last week where the singer sung for like three minutes on the track with a keyboard piano in the background. He wanted to add a bass line to his song.

I said, well send me the lead sheet for the melody and send me you singing and I'll help you with a project, my bass line that will kind of fill it out for you. Yeah. So I gave him two or three versions of this track and he was thrilled that I could do that without being in the studio. I said, well, man, you're singing this three-minute track.

Of course, it's easier now because I have all your choices already laid out for me. Right. I'm not waiting for you to decide. Yeah. I'm telling you, this is what I think works for this song. That's great. And the guy said, wow, man, how do you do that?

I don't know, but I like it. I've been doing it a long time. Yeah, that too. So during the pandemic, it seemed like you were probably more in touch with some cats than you were outside of the pandemic. Well, you know, it was easy because we were all not busy. Yeah. Yeah.

We all had our homes turning our thumbs. Yeah. Waiting for it to be over. Right. And sometimes people found things to do. Others found nothing to do. But like, do you, like, are you, like, because I know, you know, when you work with dudes, you know, on records or whatnot, it doesn't necessarily mean that you guys are buddies.

But it seems like, are you friends with Herbie? Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. I'm friends with all those guys on those records man there's not one person who i made a record with who have any kind of ill feelings yeah no it's all about trying to find the best note to make those guys sure miss me when i'm not there yeah but you do you talk about you know stuff yeah we have a life yeah yeah and we share our lives herbie talks about this. Oh, good. Wayne talks about that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. J.J. Johnson talks about this. Sure, yeah, yeah, yeah. Cedar Walton talks about this. They all have lives outside of this bandstand project. Sure, and now everyone's getting older. And because we understand the other life that we have, it's easy to put the stuff in place on the bandstand.

Yeah. You can feel another person from his day this is a weird thing it's a depth through it there's a depth to it like you know even like you know even in this you know the squeak of the you know even how you hold on a string as you get you know more wise more deep more older that you know those things ring with an authenticity of what you are in that moment i'm getting older and wiser yeah you seem like it yeah man you're fortunate you know you got your head together right i'm loving every minute of the track a chance to play one one one more good note absolutely and do you like either there

was a kind of a a touching moment you know where where like it resonated with me only because i you know i've heard it before in in in, in the way, not in that way, but like where you wonder not, not about the future because of, you know, you per se, but like, you know,

you need to keep working in order for the music to survive. Yes. That the responsibility of being one of the, you know, architects of this music, that's always struggled for survival. Yes. That there, that as you get older, no matter how exhausted you get,

you feel that the responsibility is still on you. Absolutely. Yes. That's a heavy weight. The guy said, man, why do you keep doing this? I said, well, man, somebody's got to keep carrying the fucking flag. Right. And right now, one of those flag carriers is me.

Still. And I don't mind sharing what I know that when I put the flag down, this guy's going to pick it up or this gal's going to pick it up and take it somewhere else. You feel confident about that? Absolutely. Yeah? You see a whole new, because it feels to me like

there's always been a jazz world. Yeah, Mark, somewhere there's someone who's already developing my concept. He or she. Right. All I can do is keep playing a concept. Probably in Japan. Okay, well, they're there too, man. Oh, yeah. And they have wonderful players over there. To take this note that I played

and move it somewhere else in their spectrum of location of a song. That's what the involvement is. That's what developing is. That's what keeps the bass lines and move it somewhere else in their spectrum of location of a song. Yeah. That's what the evolvement is. That's what developing is. That's what keeps the bass lines active, even if I'm not playing another note

for the next two or three months if I'm off, whatever. Yeah. But I think we have responsibility to continue to propagandize the music to assist me in that fertile ground for people who want to find what next can we do to help evolve this music that we love and what we call jazz.

I like to be in that position. It's a little embarrassing to be one of those guys. I'm just kind of the guy who's no one behind the palm tree. But bass players' notes control a lot of stuff. And once bass players understand that, the development of the bass is gonna keep getting way, beyond my imagination. Bring it on, let me see what you guys did with it.

Great, thank you very much. What about the guys who, like a lot of the guys you're associated with, there's some dudes that seem to do another world of jazz. More freeform stuff. that seem to do another world of jazz. Yeah, yeah, yeah. More freeform stuff. I listen to Albert Ehler. Yeah, yeah.

And Don Ehler. Yeah, yeah. And I listen to not so much Coltrane, but Ornette. I listen to Ornette. Cecil Taylor. Now, these guys, how do they fit in to the world, to your world? Well, they don't do what I do, but I can do what they do.

Yeah, I get it. And I appreciate their contribution to another sound, another avenue to do this music. Shouldn't, I've always heard that the argument was like, they should be able to do what you do first and then go do that I don't get to that level of conversation do you like to listen to that?

yeah they come up with combinations of notes that haven't occurred to me just like I have a combination that hadn't occurred to them if they plan their free sounds and stuff, they hear a certain tonal center. I hear one too, but it's different than theirs. And like we're both saying, well man,

how could you hear that out of this set? And we hear this out of the same set. It's that kind of curiosity that appeals to me when I hear these various, clearly different concepts on the same menu. And I say, well, man, how come I need this spice for the sound, but you find that spice is better for you? It amazes me that it works. And the jazz community, they're the last guys

to complain about being different. They want to do what they do, but they understand there's another area of availability to them right and but it's interesting because that that in and of itself the nature of that is it does not is not founded in the consistency that you create that's right i get yeah that you're getting you're going to find a note but you know they're going to go all over the place and you're going to be like what the hell is happening here oh there's a note yeah but with with what you do you're sort of like it's a good melody and you're gonna find a note, but they're gonna go all over the place and you're gonna be like, what the hell is happening here? And they're like, oh, there's a note. But with what you do, you're sort of like,

it's a good melody, and they're like, oh shit. That's when you're new. Right. Yeah. But those guys play great. I love listening to them. William Parker, for example, they had to do sounds of the bass

that never occurred to me, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Man, how the fuck did he hear that? Yeah, and does it feed you in a way? Yes, because another level of so how the fuck did you hear that yeah and does yeah and do you do you feed does it feed you in a way yes because another level of seeing how the bass works man well let me ask you i like that kind of stuff it's great it's creativity so the other i guess the last question really is like you know i heard i don't i think it was miles quoted about this because it sort of changed my life about how i approach my dumb guitar and just how i approach things in general

is the idea is that, I don't remember who was talking about, maybe it was Herbie in that documentary about Blue Note that Sophie Huber did, where he hit the wrong note, and I guess Miles said, well, there is no wrong note. You just follow that note and support it somehow. Is that just a jazz concept?

No, I think what we, I can't answer for him. Right. My response to that kind of concept is that when I play a note that doesn't really fit here, X, Y, Z, maybe I should wait till ABC comes back and try it ABC. Okay. I never put it in the trash can.

Right, right. There's a place for it, I just haven't found. In the same piece of music? Yeah. Okay. Or maybe a different piece. Right. My curiosity for me is that it isn't that it's a wrong note.

It's a right note in the wrong location. Yeah. And my job is to find a better location for this great note. Right. Clearly, that's not it. But the note's always relative to something. Absolutely. Right.

And the environment changes. Right chorus yeah the volume the intensity the intonation yeah the sounds i learned a lot just watching the documentary from what uh you know i it was in that the conversation you know with batista yeah yeah that with john yeah that uh you know that the the John. With John, yeah. That the bass's job is defined, there's harmony in that job. Yeah, yeah. And there's a rhythm and timing. Yes, that's critical to that stuff. Right, but the harmony thing

is really what defines the jazz bass in a way. That's correct. As a singular instrument. Yes, and I hope that bass players understand that. I hope if I'm accredited in anything for bass line building, it's the fact that my bass lines are melodies in themselves.

Right, right. And if you take everybody else on top of my bass line, it should sustain your interest. Yeah. If bass players can understand that option that I'm trying to play every night, they basically take another step. And there's some good players

who are waiting for something to do. Just do that. Just take that out. There you go. That's the advice. And how'd you pick these guys you're with now? Because they follow my instructions. Malone seems like a character. Well, he's a wonderful player with a great sense of humor. And Donald's kind of new to New York for the past

four or five years, but boy, he's a wonderful piano player to look out for. Yeah, man. Well, I enjoyed it a great deal. Thank you. I enjoyed talking to you. Thanks, buddy. Hey, man.

They can't see me shake hands, but we're doing that right now. All right. Thank you. Thank you. There you go. What a deep soul, man. Ron Carter,

Finding the Right Notes is now streaming on PBS digital platforms and pbs.org. Enjoy that and hang out for a second, will you? Can you just hang out? It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock

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Assembly is a breeze, setting you up for years of comfort and style. Don't break the bank. Cozy's Direct2 model ensures that quality and value go hand in hand. Transform your living space today with Cozy. Visit cozy.ca, that's C-O-Z-E-Y, and start customizing your furniture. Something new we're going to start doing here in this part of the show. There are now hundreds of WTF episodes available for free, and we realize a lot of our listeners might not be aware of everything that's there. So we want to start highlighting some past episodes you can go check out right now in whatever podcast app you're using. I thought today would be good for Martin

Landau because, well, I think it's a good accompaniment to Ron Carter. Ron Carter being, you know, people who know jazz, people who know music, know that Ron Carter is the guy. He is one of the guys. He is one of the architects, one of the legends, one of the constants, one of the true maestros of his instrument and his music. And I thought Martin Landau, that's episode 779 from 2017. It was actually recorded just a few months before he died. Now, Martin Landau was one of the guys, was James Dean's friend, was one of the originators of, was there at the beginning of the American method, and he'd been around forever.

And he'd done some great work. He'd done some unappreciated work. He was on TV in the Mission Impossible show, and he was in Crimes and Misdemeanors, I think was really, as an older man, he was a genius in it. And then he won in the Ed Wood movie, Tim Burton's Ed Wood movie, playing Bela Lugosi, who won an Oscar. But he is a beautiful actor with a beautiful craft and a beautiful way to talk about it. And it was a real honor to talk to him. And I learned a lot from it. So this is me talking to martin lando just a little taste so now when you're this is oscar-winning performance it deserved oscar-winning performance thank you now when you

when you when you what was the process of building this character out from the inside i i looked at a lot of I was doing a movie called that Mark Rydell directed with Richard Gere and Intersection? Intersection was shot in Canada Tim kept sending me

Bela Lugosi movies including one I became a huge fan. Bela Lugosi meets the gorilla. Uh-huh. It's got Martin and Lewis lookalikes who one sings and one does spastic humor. And they're on an island running around with moo-moos.

And there's a castle on the island and there's a mad scientist in the castle, Bela Lugosi, who's injecting serum into monkeys that overnight become actors in a terrible gorilla suit. And it's called Bella Lugosi Meets the Brooklyn Gorilla. And it makes Ed Wood's movies look like Gone with the Wind. I mean, I'm not kidding.

You've got to see this movie. Yeah. Because Lugosi is working his ass off playing this part of this piece of trash. My heart went out to him. And I saw that in Vancouver. And then I looked at a bunch of pictures, movies of him being interviewed when he was on top of his game wearing a tennis sweater and looking handsome. And then I saw

him coming out of the hospital after going through rehab and shaking hands with all the hospital staff. He said, yes, I'm going to start a film with Ed Wood again, you know, and stuff. And I became a huge fan. And I said to Tim, I said, if after five minutes they're saying Landau's doing a good job, we don't have a movie. They've got to believe I'm Bela Lugosi. And I'm going to break my ass getting there. And I did.

Was there something, it seems to me that when you talk about it, that there was something as an actor that you identified? Well, a lot of things. Yeah, because this is an aging guy. He's got a morphine problem that he's in and out of. Yes. And he's washed up. Completely.

And you found empathy and sympathy and connection with him. Yes. Everything you're saying is what I would say too. Everything he said goes for me too. There you go.

Again, that's from episode 779 and you can listen to that right now for free in any podcast app. If you want to listen to the archives completely ad-free, sign up for WTF Plus. Just click the link in the episode description or go to wtfpod.com and click up for WTF Plus. Just click the link in the episode description or go to WTFpod.com and click on the WTF Plus tab at the top of the page. Coming up this week, next week,

it's next week, right? Today's Thursday. I'm in Oklahoma City at the Tower Theater on Wednesday, November 2nd, Dallas, Texas at the Majestic Theater on Thursday, November 3rd. San Antonio at the Tobin Center for the Performing Arts for two shows on Friday, November 4th. And Houston at the Cullen Theater at Wortham Center on Saturday, November 5th. Then I'm in Long Beach, California at the Carpenter Performing Arts Center on Saturday, November 12th. Eugene, Oregon at the Holtz Center for the Performing Arts on Friday, November 18th, and Bend, Oregon at the Tower Theater on Saturday, November 19th. In December, I'm in Asheville, North Carolina at the Orange Peel for two shows on Friday, December 2nd. And then Nashville, Tennessee, I'm at the James K. Polk

Center on Saturday, December 3rd. And my HBO special taping is at Town Hall in New York City on Thursday, December 8th. Go to WTFpod.com slash tour for dates and ticket info. And now I'll leave you with some guitar from the vault from back in the day. Thank you. Boomer lives