WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1382 - Quinta Brunson

Episode Date: November 10, 2022

Quinta Brunson didn’t pave the traditional path to a hit network sitcom. In fact, she paved a path that didn’t really exist. Quinta and Marc talk about how she was one of the first people on Instagram to hit it big with the comedy she was making on there, which led to jobs at BuzzFeed and YouTube, acting gigs, and ultimately the chance to create Abbott Elementary. They also talk about her upbringing as a Jehovah’s Witness, the job she had to give up because of Covid, and why it’s so important to get the look of Abbott Elementary right. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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See app for details. Lock the gates! All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucking ears? What's happening? I'm Marc Maron. This is my podcast. Welcome to it. what the fucking ears what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast welcome to it how's everybody faring today thursday if you're listening to this on the day it was dropped two days after election day i'm recording this on wednesday afternoon and i'm not honestly i i only know that it didn't go as bad as was anticipated that's what know. That's the best we can hope for. We did not defeat fascism. We did not necessarily change the minds of many, but people showed up,

voted their hearts, and it was not as bad as we thought it was going to be. So problems remain, obviously, but something's been not uh i'm not giving up the good fight i'm just uh putting it into perspective i'm just contextualizing it in line with my particular life and trying to see what i do and what i don't do that could be better in light of it but i'm not i'm i'm done with fucking the dread i am so fucking done with dread and it's a choice it's a fucking choice if you want if you get juice from fear then you know that's your thing if it's a choice you're making because you want to then okay but if it's just a default setting on your particular broken vessel, then I mean, you should probably assess it. Who knows how long this will last? Look, it might have something to

do with the fact it rained here. That could be all this is. I could just be happy that it fucking rained for three days in Los Angeles and everything doesn't look like it's going to catch on fire or die. Maybe that's helping me. Maybe this is all just a personal false flag of me having some better perspective or acceptance around something. Maybe this is just, hey, it rained and what a relief. What a relief to go outside after three days of rain in this fucking desert hellhole and take a hike and breathe that cool clean air and look out over the city of la from the mountain out here on the east side and see all the way to the fucking ocean and just be like this ain't so bad look at this amazing place look at this sprawling beautiful city that's not on fire and doesn't look crispy and doesn't look like everything's about to die. Maybe that's all that's going on, but I don't think so. I didn't feel compelled. I didn't feel compelled to watch the results at the edge of my seat like some sort of fucking speedball. It's out of my control, and I'm glad it wasn't terrifying. Quinta Brunson is here. She's

the creator, executive producer, writer, and star of Abbott Elementary. She just won an Emmy for her writing on the show. We talked about where she comes from in West Philadelphia and how that's a straight line to making the show and a lot of other things. And it's a huge surprise hit on ABC and it was tremendous talking to her. So get excited. All right, is everybody making Thanksgiving plans? Is everybody making Christmas plans? What's happening? Where are you at?

All I know is I've been touring like a motherfucker and I have been out in it doing the work and come December 8th on that day when I take my HBO special and I do both of those shows, I am done for a while. And I'm going to regroup and rethink my life. And just I'm looking forward to December to the holiday season. I am. Only because I will actually not have to do anything. On Thanksgiving, I usually go down to Florida. I'm not going to do that. I'm going to stay in town, go to my friend's house

with Kit and probably cook. I usually go down to Florida, but I just couldn't pull it off. They didn't need me to cook this year. So just to fly down there for a day and fly back on those two days, the busiest days of the year, I couldn't do it. I'll go see my mother in between gigs when I'm on the East Coast in the South. That'll be nice. It'll be more focused. Just two days with my mother, wondering why we took all that time. No, it'll be nice.

You know, I'm happy that they're both still around. I got to go figure out when to see my dad. But yeah, I'm trying to figure out what to cook. I love thinking about what to cook. I'm going to, a turkey's being taken care of. I can do the stuffing. I'm going to do a chest pie. And there was talk of a brisket.

Talk of a barbecued brisket on Thanksgiving. Is that even allowed? I got to be honest with you. Talking to Quinta Brunson was kind of great. She's a very impressive person. She's got a great mind. And it was one of those conversations about a life that kind of unfolded in a way where everything fell into place.

But there were key decisions being made by a strong-willed person who, which I wasn't, certainly at her age, to know to sort of not do things and to do things that led her to where she was at. There's no luck involved. It was pure focus and pure skill and pure talent and timing. But it was really a great conversation and Abbott Elementary is currently in season two on ABC you can watch past episodes on Hulu and this is our conversation I never met her before and it kind of got it kind of got going I think she was a little she didn't feel confident about doing these things up front at the top but we eas eased into it. It was great. This is me talking to Quinta Brunson. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing.

With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative.

Be honest. When was the last time you thought about your current business insurance policy? If your existing business insurance policy is renewing on autopilot each year without checking out Zensurance, you're probably spending more than you need. That's why you need to switch to low-cost coverage from Zensurance before your policy renews this year. Zensurance, you're probably spending more than you need. That's why you need to switch to low-cost coverage from Zensurance before your policy renews this year. Zensurance does all the heavy lifting to find a policy, covering only what you need, and policies start at only $19 per month. So if your policy is renewing soon, go to Zensurance and fill out a quote. Zensurance, mind your business. what makes you anxious about a podcast too much talking too much too much really too much room to tell too many truths and get in trouble oh so it's uh you're a little paranoid. Absolutely. Uh-huh.

Yeah. Has that happened? Not yet. Not yet. Yeah, I know. But I guess it's hard, and I've noticed it's harder for women who are scrutinized differently and more that there's just people looking to reframe anything anybody says. And then it just becomes this quick bait. And even if it's nothing.

Uh-huh. So you want to go? You just want to leave? Yeah, sure. You're ready to go? Yeah, it's tough. Have you had enough? It's tough but have you had enough it's tough are you in the middle of it you're that's is that why we're doing this on a saturday you're middle of

production where you're at yes what you know like what episode are you on we are currently filming wait is this are we started yeah okay we started okay we are currently filming episode episode 213. We just wrapped 213. We're going into 214. Oh, so you're almost done? No. It's 22 episodes this season. Wow, so you do it old school. Yeah, old school network TV.

22 episodes. 22 episodes. How many do you guys have written at any given point in time? We're pretty far ahead. Yeah. guys have written at any given point in time we're pretty far ahead because it which are the producers and you know we've worked out a system so that we were really far ahead so that i got to see most of the season before i started filming yeah so we have episode 218 just got written but we're in the middle we just finished shooting 213 and uh we we have 2.19 outlined the story of 2.20 yeah and the

ideas for the other ones already like formed so you figured out do you know the whole arc when you start basically yeah really yeah i do yeah i did for the second season at least i knew where i wanted um each character to end up i I knew about our mini arcs and knew about where I wanted episodes that were less integral, things that were more fun. Yeah, it's helpful to know a lot of what you want it to look like, so we're just kind of following.

And is it all you and the thinking initially? At the beginning, how many, how big of a writing staff you have? So we have 12 in total. Right. If I include the writers, if I do what I do, he's great. Yeah. But I definitely come in already knowing

what I want the season to look like. Yeah. So I knew I wanted like a charter school arc in this season. I knew where I wanted the Janine character to wind up. What, you're going to be competing with a charter school? We've set up so far that there's just a charter school in the neighborhood.

It's kind of like the big bad this season. So that was something I knew I wanted. But I knew I wanted specific episodes. We have an episode about an egg drop. I really wanted an egg drop episode. I just-

What is that? Egg drop? Yeah. When kids put the egg in a little basket, they have to build something strong enough to keep an egg from breaking and from falling apart. Yeah, yeah. You never did that in school? I don't have any recollection of partaking in school.

I understand. I get that. Do you? I do. I do. I'm getting to the age now of like, was that 07 or was that 2010? I can't believe I'm there already. So wait, how old are you?

I'm 32. So it's weird that you're generating... So you're like... Would you call... You're a millennial, right? Yeah. So that whole generation is now growing up. Mm-hmm.

And this is your audience. Yeah. They have families. Growing up if they choose to. Right. It's a generation that can very much make a choice to grow up or stay stunted if they want to. It happens in any generation.

Really? Yeah. Have you ever... Have you met many 60 year old men that's true yeah you're right

you're right I think the responsibilities may have been different it was a different social climate when I grew up but look at me I'm you know

I've got no kids I didn't do it right you know I'm just this comedian you know talking to people in my garage or did you

well I look I defend that all the time but today talking to people in my garage. Or did you? Look, I defend that all the time. But today, or the last couple days, I'm sort of like, wow, I really fucked it up. No way. As a married person, I'm always like, I fully support my single friends. I fully support someone's being single. Oh, I tried being married twice.

Oh, you did? You attempted? Oh, yeah. But I don't have kids,, I tried being married twice. Oh, you did? You attempted. Oh, yeah, yeah. But I don't have kids, and I had a couple marriages, but I think, you know, I guess we're all a little, you know, no one's perfect.

How long have you been married? Only a year and some change. Yeah? What's the big plan? You're going to have kids? What's the big plan? I want to, but I don't know when. Yeah? I don't know when I'm going to have kids you can find the time seriously i know and that shit is hard like everyone i know

with a kid that's a whole that's a game changer yeah it's a game changer and i do want one but i also love the freedom of not it's funny i don't know i don't know if you're ready if you're calling them game changers i know that's why i know i'm not ready and i like sometimes i go out and i'm like it's crazy i wouldn't be able to just like go to granville yeah if i had a child yeah i could but i'd have to be like like a babysitter i have to take it with me yeah i have to put it in a seat where's your family philadelphia yeah too far to drop off at the grandparents at your moms and I'm like

I have to get a nanny and I'm like that means I have to be like really rich that sucks it's just so many things that might happen it seems like you're

on the right path but then it's you're on the nanny path but then it's a change and it's like well now I have to keep making money because now I have this kid

I have to take care of you gotta feed that yeah it increases your nut with a living thing right now I have the freedom to go bankrupt but if i have a kid i don't have that freedom oh the pressure's on yeah it's all you gotta work for that kid yeah well you got it all figured out you've got it you understand the the options yeah yeah philly yeah i like philly do you i love philly i I could live there. Maybe you will be able to. Yeah.

I don't think LA is long for, you know. Where are you from? I grew up in New Mexico. My family's from Jersey, though, but New Mexico. Oh, okay. Wild. Yeah, Albuquerque. It's not my podcast, but what was that like?

I'm just so curious. In Albuquerque? Yeah. My only reference point is High School Musical was filmed in New Mexico. That's it. So it was Breaking Bad. Oh. All of it.

Yeah, I mean, they film a lot of stuff there, but that was long after I left. I mean, I like New Mexico. It was interesting. It was beautiful. You know, it's kind of a rough town, I guess, but it was a nice place to grow up because it was certainly not a big city, but big enough to feel like you were in a city. Yeah. But pretty towny.

Yeah. I'm going to go there one day. Well, you're going to shoot something there. You're going to shoot your big movie. What is this plan you have for me? It's just a feeling I have. I'm tired as hell. You must be.

I am, yeah. So I think it's kind of interesting that you came up in a business that I know nothing about. I pay lip service to people on YouTube or people who make their break. Well, I understand the internet. But when I was coming up, network sitcoms were still something you got to pilot for. But there was only one avenue in. They saw you do stand-up, you pitched an idea, and then you got your money. Yep. But you came up totally differently.

Yeah. And you succeeded at that. There's only a few of you that seem to have come up through the channels that you came up in to really land real show business success. Isn't that right? Yeah. I think for me, the internet just felt like another stage because despite my career, I was actually quite anti-internet as far as advancing in my career.

Really? Yeah, when I looked down on YouTube, I... Oh, so you're old enough to do that. Yes, I was like, YouTubers are the worst. I was like, YouTube is the bottom of the barrel. I didn't want to be a YouTuber. I was like, they're not doing anything. But I did understand that eventually.

It was another stage and I started using it. But at the same time, I was like. When I started using the Internet, I was just making stuff for my friends. Yeah. But the inclination wasn't to have it, you know. Break. Break, yeah. Honestly, I started doing stand-up, and I was doing improv. Oh, really? Because I felt that's where the real.

That's where it happens. That's where it happens. So wait, how did you come up, though? Like, so did you start in, like, what was your family life like? So in Philly, I grew up in Philly, and, like, I just went to, just went to regular old public school. How many kids? Five of us. And I'm the last one.

That's why you're named five. Yep. And that's why. Which I love. The freedom in that. My brothers and sisters, their name are like Prince of Africa. Oh, really? The joy of God.

And my name is just like a number. Five. Love it. Yeah. Freedom. Are you the is just like a number. Five. Love it. Yeah, yeah. Freedom. Are you the last one? Yeah, I'm the last one. And then I went to school for broadcast telecommunications.

I don't know why that was. In college? In college. But like when you're growing up with five siblings and you're the youngest one. I mean, what'd they all end up doing? My oldest sister. A lot of hand-me-downs and that kind of shit? Kind of, yeah.

They were so far away from me. Age-wise? Age-wise. My closest sibling is eight years away. Oh my God. So you were like alone. In a way.

I kind of was like this weird only child but had these older siblings I was super close to in very unique ways. Like my oldest sister, she did my hair. She owns hair salons. Oh, really?

How old is she? She is 45. Wow. Yeah, 45. And my other sister, Kiana, she braided my hair. So I was always, and they all had different, comedy was definitely the way in with them. And they all had different senses of humor. Everyone was a comedy fan?

Everyone was a comedy fan. Your folks, too? Yeah. But for them, it was the Andy Griffith show. Oh, yeah? Yeah. And they always showed me black and whites. Black and white shows.

Right. The show called The Real McCoys that my mom loved. Oh, my God. Stuff like that I got from them. Mary Tyler Moore, you know, all of that. And then my oldest sister, she loved, well, everyone loved Martin, but she loved, like, specifically Martin and In Living Color. My other sister, Kiana, she loved, like, Conan and Friends. And so I got that late night, the late night talk show host and friends kind of came from her.

Then my mom and dad also loved Frasier. What'd they do, your folks? My mom was a teacher. Yeah. And my dad managed parking lots. Yeah. In Philly. In Philly.

Yep. A teacher of what age? Kindergarteners. Oh, really? Yeah. Well, that's nice. Yeah, it was really nice. And yeah, my dad just managed parking lots.

But they both had background in the arts. My mom was a dancer and my dad was like a gymnast. A gymnast? Yeah, he was a full-blown gymnast and acrobat. Like, was in the circus. He was in the circus? Yes. He has eight brothers.

Are they all circus family? They were at a point. Like, they all tumbled in a circus together, which is so funny to me. I think it's hilarious. That's great. Isn't that cool? What circus? There's only a couple.

Was it Barnum & Bailey or the Big Apple? It was Barnum & Bailey? Yeah, Barnum & Bailey. Did they have, like, a name? Like, the Tumbling... You know what? I never asked him. I should have asked him that.

The Tumbling Brunson's? I'm going to ask. I never asked him. This is a way to make money you know if you could sure man it's like vaudeville or something but it's pretty specific i know because if there was eight of them and they're all tumbling that was like that had to be a big top attraction like they just came out one after the other and started doing the flips i think it was like maybe only three of them that were in the yeah because they were your grandparent circus people

that were in the, yeah, because they're- Were your grandparents circus people? No. Oh. I only have one living grandparent most of my life, so I didn't really know them like that. But no, I think it was just some way to make money. A tumbler. Yeah.

Wow. Are there pictures of the crew up on the wall or anything, or is it just part of his past? It's part of his past. Just a circus tumbler past. You know? Yeah. Show business, though. that up on the wall or anything or is it just part of his past part of his past just the circus tumbler past you know yeah yeah show business though our family doesn't take enough pictures i'm starting to realize i do not take enough i don't take hardly any i take some of myself but you know i mean you do well yeah who else am i gonna take pictures of just me and my cats

you know what am i supposed to do i mean i think if you have a family yeah you maybe you take pictures of them yet another incentive for the pro-baby. Pro-baby movement. Yeah. Yeah. I need to take pictures more. I was like, I don't have photographic evidence. I know.

And I don't take selfies anymore. You don't? I'm not mad at that. Is that over? I think that's over for me. There are like no pictures of myself on my phone. I see myself. It's like enough.

I don't need to also take selfies. I guess that's true you're like you're the star of your own show it's a lot and editing it's like okay i get it so wait so now did i read that you guys were jehovah's witnesses we were and what what does that entail is that the one where you can't dance the one yes the whole religion is the town and footloose. No, you can dance. They actually love to dance. They all love to. I'm sorry. I mean, I'm not trying to be flip. No, it's funny.

It's just one of those religions where, you know, I've gotten the magazine occasionally. Very, yes. Yeah. The Watchtower. Yeah, the Watchtower magazine. Yeah. And everybody seems very pleasant. Yeah, it's a very pleasant religion.

Very strict, though. It's a really, really strict religion. Around what? So they don't celebrate holidays. They don't celebrate birthdays. So you can dance. I don't know why. I got that confused with no dancing.

Because in a lot of ways, it kind of... Same. It implies that. But it's funny because they actually love to dance, love to party. They do. But it's just like, you know, religion-restrict know religion restricted partying oh so it's only jesus partying no but like at weddings they go hard you know like because that's one of the few things you get to do is weddings is uh that's when you can let loose yeah watch people get a

little too drunk they're like oh look at you um But yeah, parents told Jehovah's Witnesses. I'm not, but... How do you opt out? How do you opt out? I eventually was like, hey, this isn't working anymore. I had to break up with the religion.

I was like, what I want to be and what I want to do doesn't work with this anymore. Huh. Do you remember the moment and what you were doing? I think I just couldn't keep lying to my mom.

I'm very honest with her, and I wanted to be honest in telling her that this is not a one foot in, one foot out. Both feet are fully out, and I need to let you know that I'm not a member of this religion anymore, and I'm sorry that might break your heart, but I want us to be able to be good

and honest with each other. I don't want to lie to you. So to move forward, I need to tell you that I don't want to be in this religion anymore. And that was hard, but we were good. And I think our relationship is way stronger

than it ever would have been if I remained a Jehovah's Witness. Or remained a liar. Yeah, remained a liar ultimately. And I'm not, like lying was messing with me. It was not fun. So, yeah. So she respects it.

Yeah. And was there a transition to that? Was she ever sort of like, well, maybe you should, you know. Yeah, I mean, she's still a try every now and then. And there's an event that all Jehovah's Witnesses, even if you were like an ex-Jehovah's Witness, you still go to the memorial, which is like the memorial of Jesus Christ, which is around Easter time for Christians or whatever.

I still go to that. Yeah? It's just a nice community thing. A family thing. Yeah. Everybody else in the family still in? No. There's one sister still left standing.

Wow. Yeah. Yeah. no no real religion anymore no i'm agnostic yeah yeah i'm just like fully agnostic yeah you're uh you know you're focusing on other things yeah in a very spiritual like you know i pray yeah just not affiliated with any religion as of now i'm not not particularly affiliated with God, but I'll pray occasionally. Do you, are you, so you're not an atheist? I don't think so. I mean, yes, I think I am, yeah. You think you are?

Yeah, I don't believe in God. Okay. But I do believe in, you know, the power of prayer in a way. Mm-hmm. In terms of at least acknowledging that you're powerless and you aren't in total control of things. Like there's something you can surrender to that doesn't have to be God. Obviously, there's many things. Most things are out of our control. So in order to

accept that, either you have to be a control freak or somewhat spiritual. Yeah, I get that. Yeah. I think I don't believe in God in the way that we perceive, that most cultures perceive him to be. I think it's like really in people. I think when someone does like a good thing, it's something that makes me be like, okay, there's something afoot. Yeah. be like, okay, there's something afoot.

Yeah, it's interesting because, and I was thinking about this today, actually, just about the nature of how divided everything is and when you're on social media, how awful it really is and how it seems that people are just full of anonymous hatred and contempt. But generally, when it comes right down to it, if there's people around and something is going wrong or someone needs help, people help them.

You know what I mean? Almost impulsively. And there is something. That moment to me is God. And it's like that is the simplicity of what it means. I kind of feel like if everyone believed in that all the time a little bit more, then the world would inherently be better. Get out of your head, get into the present, engage with other people. Yeah.

Right? Yeah. All right, so there you are. So how old were you when you cut loose from the job as a witness? I was out here probably like 22, 23. Oh, so later. So you go to college and you major in the broadcasting. What happens there?

I mean, do you start doing things? Yeah, but I wasn't owning it. I mean, I started out majoring in advertising because I really think I knew I wanted to be in TV or making TV shows. But because I was soldier who was witness, I was like, I'm never going to get to do that. That's of Satan. So I'll do advertising. Wait, explain that to me. TV's of Satan? Witness, I was like, oh, I'm never going to get to do that. That's of Satan. So I'll do advertising. Wait, wait, explain that to me. TV's of Satan?

Yeah, it was like, it was like, oh, as a Jehovah's Witness, you get warned so much about the world, the outside world, and Hollywood, TV, and sad, all bad.

So I was like, I probably will never do that. But advertising seems fun. Like maybe I can make a little M&M's commercial and get my art out through that. Sure. But it seems if you really break it down if there's a satan it's advertised that's right so i learned that immediately yeah like in the first semester i was like oh this is don't want

to do this it's so manipulative right it's it's kind of shamelessly satan shamelessly and that was kind of good to see the face of satan that. So I was like, I don't want to do that. So then I moved over to broadcast telecommunications. It's a subtler Satan. Yeah. And I was like, okay, this is about the business, which was cool. I'm happy I did that actually, because it was nice to learn about the business of TV. Right.

What did you learn at that college that stuck with you? Stuff that I, for instance, just how TV works, like how networks work. Streaming wasn't even a thing then, but how network and cable and advertising's placed in all of it. How do you work with Satan without completely being Satan? Yes, I was like, being safe yes like this church and that was good because i think a lot of people who want to make television never get that you know i think a lot of people become writers and they go to school for writing etc but they don't get the business behind it and it's i think it's cool to know both because you know where you're trying to

sell a show to and why and where what you want to do fits at the end of the day it is a business this is well that you give the earlier you earn that the better and also like i didn't know because a lot of people just come out here and it's like where does tv start right when do i when do i start tv exactly so it was really helpful really helpful to know all that stuff. And then I started taking an acting class in college. I was like, damn, I really like this. But it wasn't quite acting. I was like, I really love comedy.

And I always had, but then it was like, but I really want to go more that direction than this dramatic shit we're doing in acting class. I like comedy. Oh, you were in a regular acting class? class yeah i was taking an acting class in college should do some monologues do play yep monologues serious shit stretching like a tiger oh you never got to that point because i didn't want to audition for a play i'm not doing that shit honestly that's how i knew i wasn't like into it but did you cry and yell no because i wasn't trying to i was like no crying and yelling. So I didn't do that. But I had a boyfriend at the time who was in Chicago.

And I don't know. I was like reading Tina Fey's book, watching SNL, like finding out like, damn, all these people went to this place called Second City. So there is a place where these people go. Right. People you like, people you respect, people who are funny. And at the time, I'm looking at it at it like oh so it's a little hub they go to it's like oh no these are communities of you know these so i took i decided to take a class at the second city and stay with my boyfriend in chicago and then that's when i was like okay i can make i don't have to run away

from this there's a community here there's people who care about the depths of comedy in the way that i do and uh that kind of was the turning point of me being like i want to was that a summer and you like or it was a winter course i took and then i kept going back to take more like spring courses i would take them whenever i had breaks at school so winter break spring break in the summer When did you just go fuck school? Or did you finish? I didn't finish. So my junior year, yeah, I got just basically really depressed from a breakup with that boyfriend. The Chicago guy.

But it didn't ruin Chicago for you. Didn't ruin Chicago for me. That's good. It was very good. But I just kind of stopped going to school. I didn't drop out on purpose. Yeah. I just.

Depressed. Yeah. And I had done that before. I had done in ninth grade. I just. I wasn't depressed then. Yeah. But I had like kind of a traumatic thing happen with a friend.

And I was like. Oh. Yeah. All right. I'm done. Tragedy? Just like a traumatic fight. I was very oh really yeah like

i had a friend who we got in a fight and i was just like all right ninth grade 10th grade 10th grade and just kind of just started traumatic yeah but i as i was a kid i wasn't identifying it as that we didn't have best friend though right and we didn't have the language that we have now sure identify sure yeah yeah yeah so i didn't have the language that we have now to identify all those things. Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I didn't know I was experiencing trauma. It was just like, that really sucked. Did you guys ever make it right? We did.

You did? We did. Like, recently? I reached out to her. Yeah. Because I wanted to write about the fight we had in my book. And I wanted to read it. She didn't want me to, so I didn't.

In the memes book? Yeah. What'd she say? No, I can't talk about it. She didn't want me to, so I didn't. But yeah, I had this fight and I just stopped going to school. I was still getting straight A's. Are you guys okay though now?

Yes, we're good. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. She just didn't. Didn't want the story told. Yes, that's okay. And then same thing happened in college. It's just like, okay, traumatic thing.

But I wasn't willing to say that i wasn't willing to say that like my heart was broken so bad that i was just like okay i'm gonna go and i don't feel like going to class i'm gonna smoke up this bong i made and made a bong i made a bong where'd you make the bong in uh in my my college apartment oh oh not like a ceramic thing wasn't it oh no no no no no no this was a coke bottle it's a smart water bottle and foil okay okay no and just but that's it's interesting because you like can you that that sensitivity to that that you know something can be so can kind of uh throw you off that much. Yeah. That's emotional. Yeah. Because you get very attached to people. Yeah, I guess so.

Yeah. That was like... Interesting. Crazy to think that that was enough to make me fall out of school. But at some point, you must have figured out how to compartmentalize because you do...

You have a lot of jobs. So, like, because at that time, like, if the heartbreak was gonna just you know kind of ruin everything in your head how'd you scramble back how'd you figure out how to you know kind of like not let that happen i think i started to realize like a pattern like letting letting guys or close relationships really, and I don't regret any of it.

Sure. But I did realize a pattern of just letting other people have the keys to the car and like emotionally. Yeah, I think codependency i think yeah like just emotionally they got to run shit and i just was like i can't do this anymore there was a guy i dated out here yeah who i really liked and but i had so many good things going for me and i think that was the turning point i liked him so much. Believe I loved him. Yeah.

But I was like, I can't do this anymore because now I have stuff I can't mess up. Like now I'm an adult. Yeah. When I was in college, I shouldn't have done it, but I was like, I can get away with this. High school, I could get away with that. You weren't thinking about that. Right. But now I'm like, I can't get away with that. You weren't thinking about that. Right. But now I'm like, I can't get away with this anymore.

I'm grown. I have to. But did you realize when you were with that dude that it was the same thing? I did. Oh, yeah, yeah. I think I finally did. I was like. So it was practical.

You're like, I can't. Is this worth it? No. And I think that was the start of my practicality in becoming. That's good that it happens like that. It wasn't like some big recovery process. No. It was impractical mm-hmm, if anything now, I think I'm like

like I'm People are a little Fascinated by my ability to compartmentalize. Yeah, I got I don't have a choice Of course, yeah, there's too much on the line now So when you go go to Chicago, when you go back after you break up, after you get whatever, after you leave school, do you go all the way through Second City? Do you do the whole- No, I wasn't that. No, I just was taking classes.

I was taking classes, watching stuff. So you didn't do the road show. You didn't do the whole thing. No. That's why I can't claim it like that. I didn't like, I wasn't in the conservatory, but- But you learned. I did.

And that school, that space kind of changed my life. Just seeing people work in the field. I'd seen Keegan, Michael Key for the first time just on stage one night. And my teacher, the teacher I had there, she was, you know, this was her community. These were people. She wrote on SNL. It was like just being in that environment. You do learn that.

Yeah. Unlike, you know, I came up through comedy, and I've talked about this before, but, you know, sketch and your generation of people that it was really about sketch. And it's all about collaboration. Yep. And it's all about, you know, coming up together and writing and, you know, coming up with ideas collaboratively. Which is the world that, like, came, that I appreciated. Yeah. And I think that's why I was so anti youtube it was so singular to me in the way that i was seeing it but also there was

like you know i i assume that you know not unlike me that there was a celebration of marginally talented people yes that people related to yeah but it's sort of like devoid of craft. Yes. And I loved craft. You know, like craft was really important to me. And that was lacking in that space to me. I mean, yeah. So how do you get from Chicago?

What happens next? So I go back and forth from Chicago to Philly for a little while. Are your parents supportive or are they like what do you do? No. They don't even know I'm going to Chicago first of all.

Really? No clue where I'm going. They think you're at college? Yeah. They thought I was at college. Didn't know about the guy either? No. Not to that extent.

That's why I said I had to be a liar a lot and eventually I got old. Oh this is before you shut the Yeah. Way before. Oh man.

So that added to the depression? Definitely. Oh yeah. Oh, man. So that added to the depression. Definitely. Oh, yeah. But once again. Because you had nowhere to turn. Once again, I had no word for depression. I had no. But the heartbreak, though, it came to be like if you could go to your parents or somebody

as siblings or whatever, you just went to your bong that you made. I only just went to my bong. And my friends were very like, they knew the depth of it but we were all so young yeah who's gonna help you other than like you know fuck that guy yeah exactly but i was like hurting but um no i so i go back and forth from chicago then in philly i got a job and i was like okay i'm gonna move to la and i had had what job i worked at apple, which was good money at the time. I was making $16 an hour, which was good money. And I started, I just came out to LA for a little test run. I was like, I want to see how.

Do you have friends out here? Yes, I have a friend, Brittany, out here. I had a friend, Andrew Reynolds. His brother, Adam Reynolds, worked at Comedy Central. Oh, yeah. And I went to Second City out here. You met them in Chicago, these people? No, I met them at Temple.

Andrew, I met at Temple. Oh, that's where you went to college? Yeah, Brittany was my old dance school teacher who I'm still cool with. So I stayed with her on her floor for a month. A month. She was so kind. Her studio apartment, she let me. That's nice.

She's an annoying young person. I sleep on her floor. So I was taking second class, second city classes in and Andrew got me a job as a PA for one day on Key & Peele, which changed my life. And then I got- It was like, I'm on Key & Peele. And you saw how it worked. Yeah.

And it was the first episode of it ever. And it was like, oh, fuck. Like, I'm here. This is possible. Yeah. I love this. And then he also got me a job as a PA on a Donald Glover music video. He got some good PA jobs.

When I did PA work when I first came out here, I was doing a kid's music video shoot at Circus Vargas. It's the worst. No. I didn't have any connections. I was out in the valley somewhere where this circus was parked. Did you go to college yeah where'd you go boston university and you have no connections no i didn't know about show business i didn't understand anything i just knew i wanted to be a comic somehow and you know the

way you did that was you just went to the comedy store and you know yeah i had to figure out how to move in i wanted to be a comic until I was like, I can't do this. I'm not built for this. Not in any way, Did you do it? Yeah, I was good. You did it out here?

Mm-hmm. So you came out here, you get the PA gigs. I got the PA gigs, blah, blah, blah. I'm doing improv. But you're not doing stand-up. No, not yet.

I stayed away from stand-up for a very long time. But you're doing improv? I was doing improv. At Second City Hero. Second City, IOS. On Hollywood away from Santa for a very long time. I had no interest. You're doing improv? I was doing improv. At Second City here on- Second City, IOS. On Hollywood Boulevard. Right.

UCB. Doing the little rounds and thinking my improv troupe's going to be the one to take over. But that's later. That's later. So then I go back from, I stayed out here for a month. Then I go back to Philly. I was like, okay, I'm definitely moving to LA. That was the best.

I worked. I lived. I had a good time. Come back out to L.A. I'm going to move out here. Right. No support from my parents other than I wish you well. Call us if you need anything.

But we don't have anything. So don't. Wow. If you need to call us, come back. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Move out here.

Start. I would work to transfer my job from Apple. Just start doing improv around the city. They would do job at Apple here. Mm hmm. Oh, that's nice. It was very nice. Wow. The whole point of me getting that job was so that I start doing improv around the city. They would do a job at Apple here? Mm-hmm. Oh, that's nice. It was very nice. Wow.

The whole point of me getting that job was so that I could transfer to LA. Once I found that out, I was like- At the Apple store? Yeah, at the Apple store. Which one? Century City. Huh. I worked there.

Yeah. And so then, it's like a year out here of just doing improv, making money. Friends? I had friends. Making Friends? I had friends. Making friends? I had friends, a lot of friends who actually moved to Philly at the same time. And I was starting to make a lot of friends

through like, you know, Improv World and then other people in LA. Yeah. And like downtown, like the downtown scene, comedy friends that were in improv and some of them did stand up. And then that's when- Anyone I know?

Yeah, probably. Oh. Are they big now? in improv and some of them did stand up and then that's when I know yeah probably are they big now who's hip from your crew who is hip from my crew I'd rather not but you know people Sam Jay Sam was in New York

but I met her via other people. She's good. I've talked to her. Yeah, you have on the show, Sam, Chris. Yeah. Chris Redd. Gerard, honestly, Gerard was just starting to like- Out here?

When you met him out here? Yeah. He was just starting to blow up. At the little place that I go to, the open mic called the Improv Space. I don't even know if that still exists anymore. It was on UCLA's campus. Like he was the one that, you know, everyone's like, oh, he's about to like pop. Like he's about to blow up.

Yeah. I felt, I remember when that happened, that momentum was happening. That was around the time that I started Stand Up, which was, so anyway, I'm doing improv for a year and then Instagram video comes out. Like I said, I was anti-internet before that. I wasn't really about. But you were on Instagram. Yeah.

Early on. That's what it is. Because that was when you just had your Instagram account. 2013 or something. You know, like it wasn't, you couldn't become famous or anything like that. It was just a new thing kind of. Just a new thing. And then they had video.

Yeah. And I just put up a video of something silly that wound up going viral. And then I like serialized it and it they kept going viral but i wasn't what was it it was just first one was just a silly video where i tried to like make my butt clap and couldn't do it and the second one was this thing called the girl who's never been on a nice date which was just about a girl who's like super excited about everything the guy's buying her at the movie theater. And these things were, they were just going viral. And at the time it wasn't easy to go viral on Instagram.

Like you couldn't share a clip the way you can now. You had to like physically tell someone about it. Not even sure you could at the person on the thing. And that changed my life. Yeah. That's when I was was like oh shit like i started like you know people then knew me for this comedy thing i was doing so that was like a changing so this is it's interesting how this stuff works in terms of like the platform and even like with podcasting when i started is that if you're there at the ground floor somehow and you start because

i imagine that your work helped define their platform yeah it did it did right absolutely and then they realize that this is a thing that people can do and we can expand this yep and you felt that happen 100 all of a sudden because this was before the monetization of the whole sure and they just wanted people to join it yeah exactly and then all of a sudden it was a shift in what was possible with it and um did they did they contact you yeah i had gone to like a little thing and i was like well i don't want to i still didn't want it i was like i what i want to do is be a stage performer my goal was still to be like well i want to make tv yeah or i want to this is still not what i want to do it's just nice that it's happening and I can make some money off of it.

But I was like- How were you making money off it? I was like selling t-shirts with little phrases. The date thing? Yes. What was that called again? The Girl Who's Never Been On A Nice Date. Now, did that become like a real series of some kind?

Yeah, I just serialized it on the platform. On Instagram. On Instagram. But I was able to sell t-shirts and make a lot of money. You did? Yeah, I was able to quit my job at Apple. For merch? Yeah, for merch.

Yeah. All right. And then it became appearances, but I was like, I'm not this person. I don't want to show up to a club and say- With your t-shirts? Yeah. People are like, the girl from Instagram. Say it.

Go ahead. Say your phrase. And I'm like, that's not me. But you tried it? I tried it once, and I was like, this is not for me. At a comedy club? No, like at a college homecoming. Oh, the worst.

The worst. Oh my God. So that's like, they don't even know really why you're there necessarily. And you're kind of standing there. Yeah. And you just get paid. You get paid like $10,000 to show up. But I was like, I don't want to get paid.

I got to be honest. Colleges are terrible. I don't know how you guys do it. I know, you get paid like $10,000 to show up. But I was like, I don't want to get paid. I got to be honest, colleges are terrible. I don't know how you guys do it. I don't do it. When you did it. I was never the top of the list. I was a little too angry and weird. But I did them and they were just always like, they're awful, man. And so to avoid that, I was like, I don't want to do that.

My manager was like, I really think you should try stand-up because you don't like just showing up people. And he was like, you do like craft. And it's a craft to stand up and you would be good at it. So I tried stand-up for the first time. Good manager. Who's the manager? He's very good. His name's Adam Siegel.

He's very good. Where at? I've known him since college. He's at Authentic. Okay. Shout out for the advertising for Adam Siegel. Sure. But I started doing stand-up.

I started at the improv space and I was good and I kept doing it. And I was just like, Sure. But I started doing stand-up. I started at the improv space, and I was good, and I kept doing it. And I was just like, oh, and I started doing, you know. Writing bits, telling stories. What was the angle? Characters? No, straight stand-up. Jokes. Like, I was very inspired by, like, yeah, jokes.

Like, droid. Yeah. You know, canceled comedians. But, you know, I was inspired by that. Yeah. Yeah. Straight-up jokes. Yeah. And then a little slice-of-life jokes. now canceled comedians but you know i was inspired by that yeah straight up jokes and then um a little slice of life jokes and then so you're able to well that helped you do the writing yes for sure i'm happy i did stand up for that i mean like that's like most of the people i started out with became writers exactly yeah and then i started you know, I would get paid to show up to do that, but I didn't feel as though I was I respected stand.

Right. So did you feel like when those people that was just the people that we resent? Yeah. Just the Instagram person. Yeah, I did feel like one of those people, honestly, because I was like, OK, I have the ability to show up and be paid. But I'm not as good at this craft yet. Sure. I thought I was good at it. Yeah. But I was going to the comedy store every night and watching people be good at it. Yeah. I had seen you there. I had seen people.

I was like, these are people who are good at this. Yeah. I am not that yet. All I have is the name, so I can be paid for my name. Right. And I had a problem with that. I didn't like that. I did it for a little while.

I was finding my place in stand-up. I was doing all the clubs, doing all the places, did the festivals. But I was like, I don't like touring. I don't like going places by myself. And ultimately, I didn't really like

stand-up world. I didn't like being out until the wee hours of the night waiting to go up on stage. I didn't like being out until the wee hours of the night waiting to go up on stage i didn't love the culture yeah i didn't i was like i'd rather not and i just want to like actually like write create television right so that kind of helped me to really know where i wanted to be what's interesting because you knew that all along i exactly and and and i imagine you know after like just the way things fell together in your mind, just from me talking to you for this short amount of time that, you know, you do,

you see how Key and Peele works, right? And you're in this and you see the response you get on Instagram, which was a fluke. And you know, you don't want to live a disingenuous life or be resented for a skill set that you are pretending to have. Or I didn't want to resent myself. It was less about how other people felt about it and how it was me. But you knew. I had this genuine care for craft that wasn't inherent to. And there are people who still now can be like, oh, the internet. And it's like, you don't know you're wrong.

But I couldn't be wrong about myself. i want to but what you ultimately end up with is a very sort of practical way of writing jokes which is what fuels almost all television so whether you like stand-up or not to sit down and write jokes yeah is the job yeah and then you just got to make stories yeah yeah right yeah so after the the date thing what's the next series how do you start to build the ability to do stories so i was able to you know i was writing pilots to sell i was writing stories i was writing spec scripts. I was getting- For shows existing already? Like what?

Like I wrote a spec for New Girl just to have in my- That was the one that you thought you needed? New Girl was a good one? Yeah, it was. I was like, yeah, this is tight. This is what I want to do. And then I had written my own pilot and stuff, the way people do. For a show based with you starring?

A vehicle? No, no, no, no. Just people do. For a show based with you starring? A vehicle? No, no, no, no. Oh, just an idea. What was that one? That was about, I was young, so I was like, so silly now, but it was about a girl who basically lost her big job and had to go back to her hometown

and work at her father's copy machine, her copy. That's so funny. It was cute. It was really, really cute her copy it was cute it was really really cute and it was silly and there was a rival the place was called copy martin across the street was mart's copies and like there was their rivalry but this little girl this girl turning this yeah uh with all this big business knowledge turning this small coffee shop into something right uh sustainable since like i would always go past that one coffee shop,

I don't know if you know it, that's on like Vine Street. It's like this one. And I was like, how does this place still exist? I still see some. Yeah. Up on like on Colorado Boulevard, there's one in a strip mall that I used to go to get my passport photo done.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I'm just like, how is that still open? Yeah, and they're fascinatingly depressing but still around for customers and i was like i liked stories like that so i wrote one of those i still have it somewhere um i did a story like that that didn't go that i thought was great about a guy who won the academy award for best short film uh-huh and then it just didn't work out he got screwed up on drugs and he had to go home and he was working in a bridal photography place he was shooting getting that short film is so funny because that is like what do you do what do you do with that yeah if it doesn't catapult you to the

dude who directed uh like four episodes of my tv show the first season was that guy and i don't know what happened to him really why we could look him up look him up. No, I don't wanna know. I'm sure it's okay but it's probably not big movies. I don't, maybe I'm wrong. So, okay,

so you write, you got your spec script, you tried pitching your original idea. I didn't really pitch it. My manager had it. I didn't have anything, like any pitches planned

so after that I started. Oh, you didn't pitch it. No, I didn't pitch it. I just was writing. After I started going broke, you know, the Instagram allure wears off. What happened?

No more t-shirts? Did you run out of- No more t-shirts. I also didn't like doing that. I was like, I don't like this. I don't want to sell merch. Were you packing them yourself? Yes.

That's the worst. I know I did that. You know? And I was like, I don't want to do this. Just an apartment full of envelopes. Yes. Apartment full of envelopes carrying shit to UPS and FedEx or whatever. I was like, this is a job in and of itself.

But you had a t-shirt guy, right? I had a t-shirt guy, we would do it together, but I was like, this is a job and I don't want this to be my job. But it's interesting that you didn't think to, because now obviously you're capable of delegating responsibility, but back then you knew enough to know,

I don't wanna run a shirt business. I don't wanna run a shirt business. And you don't have money to pay somebody else. All the money you're making is going to sustaining your life. So it's like, I was like, I don't wanna do this. And so I went and I was like, I need a job. I was at that point where I was like,

I never wanna shy away from work or think I'm too famous for work. A friend, Justin, he was working at BuzzFeed. And I was like, oh, BuzzFeed, like I've seen their videos. I was like, so it's like an actual like job. He's like, yeah, I'm a producer. Like I make these videos all day. I'm like, it's tight.

I could do that. Do you think you could learn something? Yeah. I was like, I can. Yeah. So I came. He asked me to be in a video. Right.

And once I went to the facilities, I was like, oh, this is a real functioning workplace. This is kind of exactly what I need right now. I need stability. I need a stable paycheck. I need like, I can also still create shit. I see the engine to still create comedy here, but ultimately I need a paycheck. So I talked to the guys who, you know,

ran that place at the time and they were like, you want to work here? Cause they were like, you're famous. And I was like, I'm broke. So I don't care. Famous from the Instagram.

Yeah. Cause at that time, you know, a lot of people knew Buzzfeed would know. Right. It's that world almost. Right. And I was like,

no, I need a job. And I was like, I don't, I want to, I like the idea. I like the idea of like making shit. It was collaborative. It's interesting though, the difference between internet famous and famous famous. Yeah. Such a difference.

So collaborative. and I got to make like funny shit that people liked and shared. And I did a residency first, which was just working there for a month. And I was like, oh, I really want to be full time. Like I need to pay. I want steady income. So those kind of things were able to share. It had a little more integrity than Instagram, right?

To me. Yeah. Yeah. To me. I was like, also BuzzFeed wasn't as big as it had became yet. You know what I mean? It was just BuzzFeed video was a small little thing that right and then while i was there is while it got big bigger funny or die did you do any shit there i didn't do any anything there i made i had uploaded something myself to funny or die

and honestly working i love to work and i had forgotten how much i i loved it because i was on my own for a long and i told you how much i i loved it because i was on my own for a long and i told you that stuff i hate it was so singular making like instagram videos but now you're but now you're producing right i'm producing you're working with other people with other people i have co-workers i have people i fuck with people i can go out with right i can um and i worked there for three years and while i'm there i get to start writing longer stories you know like it became they were making these videos but And while I'm there, I get to start writing longer stories. It became they were making these videos, but then it was like there was a space to make more narrative work.

Yeah, I can't identify anything about it. I thought BuzzFeed was primarily a – it's not a news place? It's not a – It became that. It became all of that while I was there. Oh, okay. Initially, it was just like any of the other ones we're trying to generate? It was like lists in these videos these short relatable videos right i saw an opportunity to kind of create something more yeah more and so i started making narrative work there sold like

created really cool shows for youtube and then sold some shows to the other digital platforms like youtube red and which doesn't exist anymore and verizon Red, which doesn't exist anymore, and Verizon Go 90, which doesn't exist anymore. But that's where I got the taste of creating long form work. That was the time where, what was that one that was out in the, Jash, do you remember that place? Yes. Right?

All these places had money and higher. Yeah, what the fuck was that place called? Somebody actually left Buzzfeedeed and started that. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Named Dominic. Wild. Gosh.

Yeah. Wow. That's crazy. That feels like such a. And there was some other big comedy network that a lot of people had shows on that went away. I can't remember the name of that one. Yeah.

Crazy. But YouTube Red, that was like, there was a lot of talk around that. They got money. Yeah. Did they? Yeah. I mean, for, yeah, they had, they bought a show for like a substantial amount of money in the internet space.

Yeah. And what was that show? That was called Broke. It was a show I made about like just three friends in LA. How'd that go? How many did you do? I did, we did a season of like 10 episodes. So you're learning how to do this shit.

Yeah, learning how to do it and loving it. Having writer's rooms at that time? Yep, having writer's rooms. At that time, I only had a writer's room of two people. My friend, Garrett Bernard, also from the stand-up world, and Kate Peterman, and we were our own little writer's room.

Garrett now, he's writing one. But you learned how to break everything down, the columns, the whiteboard, cards. Mm-hmm. And I read, I love to just read and learn how to do shit, so I read how to do it, but then... Where'd you read that? There's a book that is really cool.

It's just called How to Write TV that's a really good book that... I don't know, I'm like, this should be on the best sellers you did it huh yeah but then you do it and it was good it was a good way to learn um and then i eventually leave buzzfeed because i was getting opportunities like i got to write for this show called laser wolf which was on adult swim which yeah i canceled and then i was uh i was acting more like i got to like start acting and getting opportunities to pitch outside of BuzzFeed.

For network stuff? For network stuff. And wrote for that show, Laser Wolf. Worked with Larry Wilmore to create a show. Oh, yeah. He's a good guy. How's that guy doing? I haven't heard his name in a long time.

Really? He's doing well. Buying his business, making TV. Yeah? And yeah, then I got my real taste of it, of working in network. And that was a game changer. Around that time, that whole time I was doing stand-up. But my heart just wasn't in it.

Yeah. But I still have immense respect for the craft. But I was like, yeah, this is not for you, girl. Good for you. Yeah. It's a dirty world. It's a dirty world it's so dirty it's so gross i'm sorry mark it is it's dirty yeah it needs a i am now it needs a complete someone's got a queen i'm old look i just go i go i go do my shows at theaters and i go do my shows at the comedy store.

I do my short sets. I don't even know what's happening. I know. That's a good place to... But I think about it. So I was like, somebody's got to... Well, I don't know what the hell... I mean, it was always sort of...

But I think more so outside of moral issues, just the nature of being a nightclub comic or a performer is its own weird trip. And it's always been that way. And it was not the life you wanted. Yep. It's a choice to have that kind of life. Oh, for sure. And then what the late night life just inadvertently will perpetuate.

Of course. It's just tough. Yeah. just inadvertently will perpetuate. Of course. It's just tough. Yeah, the possibilities for bad behavior, for, you know, getting, you know,

fucked up on drugs. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's, you know, historically, you know, the way it is. It just doesn't work out. Yeah. But, yeah. But, I mean, but look, Liam, it's like, I don't know who,

you have to take some sort of weird renegade spirit to want to live that life. And, you know, you had business in mind. You had, you know, collaboration and creativity that was better. You just knew you knew. I know. So so what happens, though, like how does, you know, Abbott Elementary evolve? So you're writing for shows you're doing acting bits yeah you're pitching stuff yeah when does the idea hit you the idea for abbott hit me

my parents are in their 44th anniversary so that hit me four years ago now four or five years ago right okay five because before my mom retired so i was just with her and my mom and I went to I went to Philly to go visit and she was I was visiting her school and I hit with this wave of like, fuck, I forgot how much of my life took place in a school, not just as a student, but with my mom before and after school. My relationship to school was just different. It was my second home. And I was hit with all these feelings of this world. I've been so far away from it for so long. But man,

these walls, these floors, this was something. It's all very tangible and very specific. But everyone knows it. Yeah, everyone knows it. But that to me, and I think that's what artists should be inspired. It yeah but everyone knows it yeah everyone knows yeah that to me and I think that's what artists should be inspired it's something everyone knows but you have like a connection

to it that can help materialize it for the rest of the world you know that familiarity and and I was with my mom and uh I was urging her to retire because I don't, I was like, you're too old to be doing this. Yeah. And it's late and Philly's a tough city. And she was trying to get me to come back home. The kindergartners were tough too? Everybody. Yeah.

My mom was one of those people that was like starting to get like, these kids are like out of control. And little stuff was starting to trip my mom up. Like the idea, this is just the truth. She was like, so the kids are just gay now? And I'm like, yeah, mom. And she's like so the kids are just gay now and i'm like yeah mom and she's just like you know i was like it's a lot happening and you might need to think is that who the is that who the shirley ralph character is yes your mom completely oh yeah completely and so but then this this parent came in and um it eight o'clock. It was like parent teacher night, which I was pissed about that they would have to go that late.

Right. And it goes till eight. The parent came in at seven fifty eight. I was pissed. I was like, how dare you? Yeah. But mom, the woman was a nurse. That was as soon as she could get there.

And she had her son with her. And my mom was so excited because she had been wanting to talk to this woman all year. Yeah. And I was just watching that interaction like this is who my mom is this is who she's always been this is who every teacher is pretty much who's a good teacher and i was sitting at my mom's desk looking at it all and the the idea just hit me like a ton of bricks i was like oh this is what i want my next show to be about and at that point i had tried to sell uh i sold one show to cbs yeah so i was like i knew how it worked and i knew what i what was that show that was a show called quentin germain with

germaine fowler another person i was like who germaine um like gerard kevin barnett who passed away these were all like kind of the people that I was sharing space with at the time. And I made that show with Jermaine, sold it to CBS, learned a lot, loved working with, we worked with Larry on how to do that process of selling the network. So I wanted to make that show. I immediately hit up who are now my co-producers, Justin and Pat. But at that time, they were, what were they doing? They were working on a show, Harley Quinn, that's on HBO Max now.

And I was like, I have this idea. And I wanted it to be animated at first because I was working on the thing with Jermaine. And I was like, maybe I could focus on that if this is live action and it goes. I can focus on this if it's animation. And they loved it. But then nothing happened. The show with Jermaine and Larry, it didn't go. It's weird.

How long did it take you to realize it wasn't going? Because they don't really tell you sometimes. They don't tell you. And so it took forever. And it was like, that didn't go. And then Justin and Pat. You know, it's weird when they finally tell you, it's right around the same time you go, I guess it's done?

Okay. Oh, yeah. You didn't hear? yeah okay cool okay i guess i made some money thanks um and then justin and pet then i got casted in this show black lady sketch show yeah and i did that so that was moving i sold another show to hbo max i started wearing it was like basically the whole abbott idea just we talked about it we all loved it and then it just everybody got busy. What was the HBO Max show?

That was a show that was actually based on BuzzFeed. Oh, yeah. But it was going to be about a girl boss. Okay. But how awful she really was, who would be put in charge of the diversity department because she was black but she didn't want to be she was all about herself and so her little journey to uh you know because that character is kind of an abbot yeah yeah kind i love that character it's like i just think those characters are if you do them right they're really fun they're hilarious yeah yeah because they have to pretend like they give a shit yes yes and then when you finally see

them actually give a shit one day, it's really fun. Yeah, yeah. When you find their heart. Yes, and for her it was put on display and it was for the HBO Max show. It was going to be a big expose of a lot of people like that. Right. I think one person at HBO Max didn't like that. Oh, is that what happened?

I really do. I think she had a big problem with the call out that was involved in this character. And I was like, all right. So I sold that show, didn't go. And then I was on Black Lady Sketch Show. How was that? It was cool. I was just an actor, which was fun for me.

I had never gotten to be. Again, learning some chops. Yeah. Just an actor on TV. That was cool. I don't know. And even learning to be quiet. Because I'm also a writer.

It was like learning to be like, no, I'm serving somebody else's vision right now. In this case, I'm not a writer. I'm an actor. It's a relief in a way. It was. All you have to struggle with is like, can I just suggest? Yeah, right. But that was good.

Because before that, I didn't really know how to shut the fuck up. it's actually good to learn how to do that oh good and then um and then the covid happened and uh i was on a warner brothers lot i had a meeting i had a meeting there with a movie person and then i ran into pat who i had called years ago about abbott and pat and i ran into each other he was like hey what are you doing right now yeah I was like um nothing I was like black lace sketch show but uh that's it and he's like do you still want to do that show you remember the teacher show you told me about I was like oh shit I was like honestly yeah like I love that idea they're like so do we and they were like we actually looking for something to put in our first position place and i was like well that's tight i just had a show that didn't go hbo max i can work on another show and then boom then covid happens

everything shuts down black lake sketch show shuts down they went back for their second season but i didn't want to because i was afraid of covid like my cousin had died of covid i was like i'm not oh really going back it was the first they black In Philly? Yeah. They were one of the first shows to go back. And I was just like, I'm not doing it. You saw it. It hit your family. It hit my family. It hit other families I knew.

I was like, I don't, it doesn't, I don't care. You can pay me a million dollars and I'm not going to be the guinea. Yeah. Shit was real. So I didn't go back. But then that time, a lot of that time was spent working on Abbott. It was like, well, let's just work on this thing that we all think is cool. The pilot?

The pilot. Yeah. Or even the idea for the show. Uh-huh. And then we pitched it to WB. WB loved it. And then we pitched it to ABC. ABC loved it.

There was a woman at ABC who I had met two yeah two years ago who when i was selling the hbo max show and abc wanted to buy it but i was like this show is not for abc yeah but what i liked about her name was aaron and she sold abc to me and i was like i'm gonna come back to you and then we did for abbott and then uh made the pilot so they had a little bidding war or no? Yeah. Yeah. There's always a bidding war. I've never sold something and there hasn't been a bidding war. That's nice. Oh, is that not normal?

No. Sometimes you're like, you know, you pretend like there's a bidding war. No, every time it's always been CBS, ABC. Everybody wants you. Yeah, but then a lot of, then sure, and then they don't make it. So it never used to matter. Sure. Like I learned that fast. I was like, cool, bidding war is cute, but I actually want of, then sure, and then they would make it. So it never used to matter. Sure. Like I learned that fast.

I was like, cool, bidding war is cute, but I actually want the show made. Right. And then you went with ABC. I went with ABC. And that is its home. Yeah. And that's its home. So you sold the idea, you wrote the pilot and they said, go. Did you have to shoot a pilot or did you just go right into writing episodes?

No, we shot the pilot and then we were picked up based off of that pilot. But it was a pilot we all, everyone who got involved, everyone got really invested in this pilot. We got, like, I just wrote it, but the cast got super, like, this is what I want to do. They loved it.

They loved it. Because I guess it's interesting to see a show that is, you know, so capable of being big hearted. Yeah. But also the stories just can keep generating. The stories can generate. They got to be funny. Like, you know, like people who. And kids.

Yeah. And kids. Janelle, who's a stand-up like actually had this thing that she actually was going to get to be like real life funny and people i haven't seen lisa ann in a long time i've known her forever lisa and it was an opportunity for like when i saw lisa audition i was like everyone who auditioned i was like oh damn this is it like and it's a nice feeling to have that and not feel like you're like, all right, I guess this person, like Lisa. I was like, I don't give a fuck.

She is it. She's it. The conversation's over. I felt the same way about Janelle. I felt the same way about Chris Perfetti, which was hard because he was quite unknown. Quite unknown. And then Tyler, I haven't seen in years. Yeah, see, i had worked with

tyler on black lady sketch show and i knew how good he was and i knew what i kind of wrote that role completely with him in mind oh that's good and now what about cheryl lee ralph cheryl was someone i just didn't think we could get so she wasn't on my radar i just but you knew her yeah but i was like it's weird how you find out you can get right i know i was like when i was doing my show they'd show these these pictures i'm like that guy right what how but then you realize like they're just working actors they're just working actors it's an amazing realization it is it really is i've had it with people on the show that i'm like wait like you grew up with them yes orlando jones who plays tyler's dad in our show with someone who i I was like, wait, we can physically have Orlando Jones. Right.

Well, the weird thing is, is like a lot of times after a certain point, actors think like, how long is it going to take? Yeah. You know, and where is it? Yeah. I think like that now. Yeah. Can I get my quote? Right.

Great. All right, cool. I'll do it. Yeah. Because when you really think about acting, and it's probably something you realize, it's sort of like, that's really, those are the questions. Like, when you're just watching actors, you're just sort of like, oh, it's magic land. Yeah. But usually they're making decisions on, will you fly me out?

Yep. And, all right, four days at this hotel? Right. And give me this money? Yeah. Okay, good. I'll do it. Yeah.

I mean, that's me, kind of. Right, of course. The easier, the better. People are all like, how'd you do? I'm like, it worked out, scheduling-wise. And, yeah, I'll show up. of. Right, of course. The easier, the better. People are all like, how'd you do? I'm like, it worked out scheduling-wise. And yeah, I'll show up if it's easy. Not going to make me look crazy and have a good time with some people. Yeah, exactly.

Yeah, so all of them were in. The director who, that was really important, was the director. I really wanted someone who had done my documentary before. And little did I know, we like the godfather of it this guy randall einhorn who had done like the majority of the office yeah he went from being a dp on it to a lead director oh wow so he really knew the he knew the style he knew the style he started off parks and rec and he did but the his but then he also did wilfred and like he just and he we only got him to direct but he literally fell in love with the show and helped design the warmth of the show and so then randall

became an aep and he's our um resident director and like everyone was falling in love with it so if it didn't go it was going to be like a real right real bummer. So what were the, you know, going into it, what were the network concerns and what sort of navigating did you have to do around those concerns? The concerns mainly were in casting. Like the network was used to having big, big, big names. And I really wanted people like Janelle and Chris yeah and you know even Lisa was like a huge name to them in a network space I was like

this is who I want yeah I'm kind of not budging right and they had the stunt casting they wanted to do a lot of our fights were which there were not many mean it sure they I have to give ABC and WB total credit. They let me cook. I think they knew they needed something new, and they had to take a risk, and so they let me do that. But they liked stunt casting, and I really did.

What does that mean? Stunt casting is like, oh, we have a firefighter role. Let's call Mark Maron. Yeah. And I was like, wait a second, hold on a second. Is Mark right for the part? Are we going to waste Mark Maron's time. And I was like, wait a second, hold on a second. Yeah. Is Mark right for the part?

Are we going to waste Mark Maron's time? They want to get stars who had a day or two to come in. But for me, especially because it was mockumentary for the first season,

I was really against stunt casting. Right. Because they're too identifiable. Too identifiable. Right. I wanted, I needed,

and especially for the main characters, there were people who they had in mind for Principal Ava who I was like, no, it breaks the illusion. I want a face that most of America hasn't seen so that they get to fall in love with the characters in a certain way. I was a new face to America. The internet might have known me, but not the ABC network audience. Cheryl, in a way, got to be a new face to this world

tyler because he was a kid last time he was on tv right so it's weird i kind of had this weird fresh face cast yeah even though some of them were veterans and yeah and i love that because i think that's important to my community i just do if you're asking people to get involved in that way, it's important that they aren't seeing, I don't, you know, someone who they know

forever. Right. Did they think, did they feel that the show was accessible enough right from the beginning? They did. Oh, that's good.

They did. I, but I also did my homework. I know what it takes to make a network television show. What does that mean? I know that half of

it is accessibility yeah you're not i'm not making an indie niche yeah fx yeah you know hey atrium max show yeah it has to be accessible this is the kind of show we grew up with yeah yeah and i love that and i love that shit that's the other difference too is it never was a hindrance for me i love that and that's what I wanted to make. Right. And in the room, my room is filled with incredible writers. Yeah. A lot of time, it's me being like, that's too niche.

Oh, yeah? Like, I need, we have to make that a broader. Bigger? Broader? We just do. Yeah. And, you know, naturally, comics and comedy writers are against that but i'm like our job here is to make sure a grandma a white grandma in kansas and a black internet child can laugh at this together that is our

goal so if it's not we have to make it broader and it's room for the little jokes for everybody in there but overall like right i stay away from a lot of just niche, niche shit. Well, yeah, but why do that? You got so much heart in the spectrum of the show. I mean, these are people doing a noble thing, an underappreciated thing, an underpaid thing, a heroic thing. Yeah. And so you have the sympathy. Why push them away?

Right. You have that connection. Yeah. And I love that connection. And I love that. I value that. I think it's beautiful. And part of the reason I wanted to make a show like Abbott is because I can't watch too much TV with my parents.

And Abbott's a show that, you know, I was missing having those shows we could watch together. The last show we could really watch together was King of Queens. Like, we would watch that show and laugh all the live long day, but it wasn't, there weren't many shows coming out like that anymore. So I wanted to put something in that space. And you won an Emmy. Yes.

And that was exciting. Yeah. Good, congratulations. Thank you. Do you feel like, were you upset about what Jimmy did? No. I think it was just a joke gone wrong a little bit. You feel like, were you upset about what Jimmy did? No. I didn't, yeah.

I think it was just a joke gone wrong a little bit. Yeah, but once again, being a stand-up and being in comedy, that's a part of it. No, and also I just wasn't there. I was on stage winning an Emmy. Yeah. When I tell you I didn't even see Jimmy. Laying there? I mean, or I mean.

Because you were so excited. Yeah. Yeah. My brain just moved on. I was like, I have to get this little speech. But no. And I talked to Jimmy that night when my PR told me people were mad. I was like, wait, really? Like, I didn't know. She was trying to prepare me like you're going to get asked a question about this. And I was like, question about what? And she showed me and I was like, oh, shit, people are like legit mad. And so I answered the little question in a funny way because I didn't know how mad they were. Then I saw Jimmy after and me and him talked. And he was like, did you see like the Internet? I was like, yeah, I was like, that's crazy. He was like, are you OK?

I was like, I'm good. He was like, OK, because I didn't mean I was like, Jimmy, what are you like? I'm really trying to go to the. And then we took a little joke picture. And I enjoyed the rest of my night. And then in the morning I woke up and saw that people were really fucking mad. Yeah. And I was just like, damn.

Right. But I was like, okay, I guess it looked to them at home. Disrespectful. A different way than it felt for me in the moment in the room. But that was kind of my, I've had that lesson many times with another lesson. Yeah. had that lesson many times with another lesson and yeah that the narrative that you know the world may have about your experience is not the same as right experience sure and you have to deal with both of those things at the same time i'm like all right i get that people were mad yeah

but i wasn't i wasn't and no both those things are true right and that was it interesting i kind of have to hold space for both. Right. People still come up to me and they're like, fuck Jimmy. And I'm like, oh, well. Well, I mean, like, you know, it's interesting. Yeah. That it doesn't mean that what they experienced is wrong.

Exactly. I get it. Because that's what it looked like. Mm-hmm. You know? And, you know, okay, you guys are friends or whatever but still right and ain't nothing i could do about that it's true it's like all right so do you feel has is do you feel the pressure on now are you all right no yeah you're just doing the job i thought i was supposed to

say this let me think of a nice way to say it like we didn't make the first season of Abbott for awards or anything right like uh we didn't we really just wanted to make a show for people to enjoy yeah my goal was to make a good comedy that was the focus and so the awards and stuff are just a plus but I think not worrying about them didn't put much honestly I was afraid of winning that's when i was like well fuck like i was gonna feel fucked if we won like best comedy yeah that was gonna be all like i kept talking about writers and like my cast about it and i was like i do not want to win i want to have room to make a second season what was it for what was it the amy for miami was for writing oh good and then cheryl went cheryl went for that supporting and then our casting

department won an emmy so that's good those are the good ones yeah writing was tight that made me feel very validated because yeah at the end of the day yeah i personally feel i wrote the hell out of that pilot and i felt good to earn that one yeah but best comedy me was going to be like, I'm just going to feel like, okay, y'all are actually trying to shoot us in the foot if we were to win that one. Right. And I'm happy we did. It was an honor to be nominated. Sure.

But I did not want to win. Nobody was happier than me when Ted last won. I was like, you know what? Yes. Turn it up. Now, are you finding that your generation is being represented in a way that you're getting feedback from they are getting older like we said at the beginning do you find that a lot of your audience is in that age group yeah wow yeah yeah definitely um but my niece who is 15 yeah

she showed me something on tiktok and i was like oh that's cool. I was like, we're on TikTok? And she was like, Quinta, I'm not on TikTok. That's where I drew the line. I was like, I refuse to get on that. I refuse to learn about it. I am happily old now. Please, I don't want any parts of that. I just have some guy do it for me.

What do you mean? Oh, he does the TikToks for you? Well, yeah, I generally, occasionally I'll do a little thing with a cat, but usually they just cut up pieces of standup and I'm'm like well fuck it i mean see that's good yeah but that's you doing your craft and it's intended medium yeah and it and that's why i'm okay with it with abbott i'm like abbott goes to abc first whatever y'all do with it after right by me but yeah like ticked but she said it's on there yeah and she showed she showed me, and I was like, oh, my God, holy shit.

People were acting it out and stuff? They love it. They just post clips of watching it and talking about the show, and I'm like, damn, that's really tight. But then I go back to when I was younger and watching TV shows and just being a kid and working in it and not being cynical about it and just enjoying this, you know. Well, I think the genius of it is, is that like, you know, most of us go to public school, right? So the context, it's almost second, it's our nature.

Yeah. So it's going to be a place of arrival or a place where people have been, everybody. They remember those rooms. So I mean, I imagine that attention to detail about how that school look had to be pretty important. Very important. I was very precious about the look of that school and down to the amount of dirt on the walls. I was like, this needs to be,

these are stains that can't be lifted because they've been here since the school's inception. And no cleaning job in the world can get away, you know, take a 40-year-old stain out. And a certain warmth, which Randall really helped with, you know, we were making a mockumentary and we knew we'd get compared to the office and parks and rec but in our world the paper is kids which is a different the office has a very drab feel this couldn't have that because there are living breathing things that people are taking care of so the tone of the show became important to me the when we we shot in a real school in la but when we recreated it it was like i still need the length of that hallway though like that's important to the story.

It's where a lot of the gathering will be done, a lot of the talking. It's our, besides the teacher's lounge, that's our teacher's space. That's where everyone kind of meets. And even though it's mundane, the audience needs to feel like they're in there, too. So it needs to be big enough for the audience to feel like they're in the hallway. And again, we've all been in those hallways. You've in those hallways and this was a return to them i think the unique thing about abbott was that you know a lot of the schools and shows were focused on either the kids or sorry shows in schools were focused on the kids or they had these this altruist altruistic

relationship with the teachers. It was like, oh, the teachers, it's about helping the kids. This show is about the teachers who have lives, and this is the job that they do. But it's kind of the behind the scenes of your teachers. And also, that's another thing. When we were younger, when you just got a little information about your teacher's life, you're like, oh my God. Oh my God. She was just out there in her car at the supermarket.

Oh my God. It's crazy. I remember in eighth grade, the girls had a crush on one teacher, Mr. Raskavage. And they, because you're a little girl, so they formed this crush

and they formed the ability, the possibility of relationship with them and Mr. Raskavage and they because you're a little girl so they form this crush and they form the ability the possibility of relationship with them and Mr. Raskavage and one day Mr. Raskavage's girlfriend they saw him outside and all these eighth grade girls

are like what the fuck because you don't look at them that as people but they have full blown lives yeah it's wild yeah which so I think that's also and I think that probably on some level because you don't look at them that as people. But they have full-blown lives. Yeah, it's wild.

Yeah, so I think that's also- And I think that probably on some level remains a kind of mysterious trip, man. Like, I don't know that I would identify it when I was watching it, but that, because I'm grown up and you kind of know people who are teachers, but it was heavy when you're a kid.

Yeah. When you saw just, just even if they're at the store. Yeah. Like what? You have to say, don't you go to sleep at the school and then wake up and then teach me? And you don't even know what to say to them. Right.

You know? Why are you in the school? Yeah. It's so funny. These clothes you're wearing. Yeah. Well, great job. Thank you.

Thank you. Seriously. Thank you. And it's good talking to you. Yeah. This was fun. Oh, good. I'm Well, great job. Thank you. Thanks, Mark. Seriously. Thank you. And it's good talking to you. Yeah, this was fun. Oh, good. I'm glad it worked out. It did.

I'm getting better at podcasts. You are. Thank you. Right? What an impressive individual. Abbott Elementary is currently in season two on ABC. Watch past episodes on Hulu. And please hang out

for a second, will you? It's hockey season and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats, but iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice. Yes, we deliver those. Gold tenders, no. But chicken tenders, yes. Because those are groceries, and we deliver those too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, alcohol, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age.

Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations,

how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Okay, today, for today's archive show, I recommend listening to episode 798 with filmmaker Raoul Peck. So, as I said before, you know, look, we're living in a shitty country right now.

We really are. And the fact is we're accepting bread. We're just accepting crumbs of faith, crumbs of hope, because it didn't go as bad as we thought it would go. of hope because it didn't go as bad as we thought it would go, even though it was a bad night for Republicans. There's so much damage done, you know. And so what do you do about that? At some point, you know, hand wringing and dread, as I said before, it doesn't get you anywhere. How do we learn to live within it and still take the action necessary to try and change it without panic, without freaking out, without being terrified all the time. So Raul was here to talk about the documentary he made about James Baldwin, I'm Not Your Negro. It was February 2017.

So we're only about a month into the Trump administration. Trump had already tried to implement the Muslim ban right away. Every day there was chaos and antagonism from the White House. It was all feeling very unstable and out of control. And Raoul had some good perspectives on this. He lived under dictatorships. He served in the government of Haiti. And he learned how to engage activism through art.

What do we do? You know, we cannot pretend to be innocent. We are not in an innocent time anymore. We know all we need to know. Whoever we are, black or white or Chinese, Native American women, we know our history. If we don't, that's the other line, we are moral monster because we cannot pretend 2017 that we still don't know how the world is run,

that we don't know our history, that we don't know that this country was built on two genocide and that we need to deal with it. It's not about punishment. It's not about reparation. It's about knowing because knowing is is already the beginning of change. Knowing in moral terms. And in moral terms, and also in reality. Yeah.

Knowing the facts. Right. Knowing the numbers. You know, when you say let's make America great again, what does it mean? In that sentence alone, there are at least 20 mistakes. 20 mistakes. And of course, you don't have the time to rebuke every single piece of that phrase,

which doesn't make sense, which is idiotic and a manifest of ignorance. And not only that of ignorance, but he takes you for an ignorant. And that's terrible. 2017, to be able to say a phrase like that is to erase the history of America and the influence of America throughout the world, you know, in bad and good times. You know, what does it mean? It means nothing. me a lot of relief at the time. And we heard from a lot of listeners that it did the same for them. I think it's just as relevant today. So give it a listen. Episode 798 with Raoul Peck. It's available for free in all podcast apps. Okay. Tonight I'm doing a secret show. That's not secret anymore. It wasn't secret. I'm at Largo in Los Angeles at 8 PM. I'm in Long Beach, California at the Carpenter Performing Arts Center this Saturday, November 12th. I'm bringing Luke Schwartz with me. I had no idea that that show would sell so well.

I mean, it's going to be a real show. Eugene, Oregon at the Holt Center for the Performing Arts on Friday, November 18th. Bend, Oregon at the Tower Theater on Sunday, November 19th. Asheville, North Carolina at the Orange Peel for two shows on Friday, December 2nd. And then Nashville, Tennessee, I'm at the James K. Pol two shows on Friday, December 2nd. And then Nashville, Tennessee. I'm at the James K. Polk Center on Saturday, December 3rd. And my HBO special taping is at Town Hall in New York City on Thursday, December 8th. Go to WTFpod.com slash tour for all dates and ticket info. Okay?

All right. That was tight. Here's some guitar. Tight. guitar solo guitar solo guitar solo guitar solo Boomer lives. Monkey and Lafonda. Cat angels everywhere. All right now.