WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1383 - Wes Bentley

Episode Date: November 14, 2022

American Beauty completely changed Wes Bentley’s life and is still doing so today, considering he got his current role in Yellowstone because of his performance as Ricky Fitts. But the sudden exposure to fame started Wes down a path of drug addiction that nearly ended his career and could have ended his life. Wes tells Marc about growing up in Arkansas as the son of two ministers, turning down Spider-Man, bottoming out in Argentina, cleaning up and getting a second chance. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis and ACAS Creative. what the fuck buddies what the fuck next what's happening how's it going where you at we've gotten

it you know there is a reprieve at hand but don't get too comfy sorry i don't want to be negative i gotta get this out because it's uh been bothering me i my hbo special is taping thursday december 8th at town hall in new york city the first show was sold out has been for months a lot of people thought the show was sold out but it's not because there's a second show, which has some tickets. It's close to selling out, but there's tickets. So you can get tickets to the second show. It's at 930, and it's all part of the taping.

That would be the second taping. You can go to WTFpod.com slash tour for ticket info or go to TownHall.org. And this is another heads up. Please don't go to Scalp. Go to the venue site. Don't just Google Marc Maron tickets. Go to the venue site. None of my tickets are $400.

A lot of these shows still have tickets available. Go to the venue site or go to WTF pod dot com slash tour. OK, today on the show, I talked to Wes Bentley. Now, look, man, I remember this guy. I mean, a lot of you know him from Yellowstone or American Horror Story. But but you probably saw him for the first time in American Beauty, which was like a breakout performance that really had him pegged as the next big movie star you remember with the floating bag you know the videotaping the floating bag whatever you remember him uh it went uh very differently and it got pretty dark and we talk about it so that's happening

also i reposted two episodes since I've talked to you, I think. Gallagher's dead. And Bud Friedman died. Bud Friedman was the proprietor of the original improvisation on 44th Street between 8th and 9th in the early 70s. One of the first actual sort of comedy venues, but it really started more as a variety venue, almost a burlesque venue. But then he moved out here and left his wife that particular club, which I sort of played at during its, in its last stages, the final stages. And then he came out here to set up the improv in the 70s here. It was him and Mitzi at the

Comedy Store who were warring factions at the beginning of stand-up comedy clubs. And obviously the improv went on to become a big deal. He gave a lot of people their start. He gave a lot of people opportunities. I did some of my first two TV appearances at evening at the improv. I never got the feeling Bud liked me, but we had a good conversation after all was said and done. And he was the P.T. Barnum of stand-up comedy, the first real kind of intrusive impresario of the craft, hosting his own shows at his own club on his own TV show with his monocle. show with his monocle. He was a big egoed guy that really was ultimately, no matter how you think about him, a tremendous force and important man in the history of stand-up and in giving us a stand-up comedy as a wide-ranging cultural impactor. Impactor. So go listen to that if you want to hear that.

What else? So, you know, it does seem we've been given a reprieve on one front. You know, we just got, you know, in these elections, we, you know, everyone's excited in terms of, you know, Democrats and people who are not essentially right wingers. Because we just ended up losing a little bit as opposed to a lot. And who knows, we might even, I don't know what's going to happen with the House, but we are neck and neck with fascists. We are neck and neck with the fascists. We are not overwhelmed by them. Yay, right? I mean, it just seems ultimately that enough regular people had had had enough of the evil ridiculousness of the clearly crazy bullshit. That's what I want to believe. They got nervous. They got nervous that the president might be right and that democracy was actually at stake.

And they I believe they were correct in taking that to heart. I believe that that President Biden on the two times that he talked, maybe you didn't see it. Maybe you didn't think it was charismatic enough. But the message was clear. Democracy is at stake. And it is. And it was. And that's that.

So we got a bit of reprieve because it seems that whatever we have here, whatever's left of this democracy it worked despite the the the propaganda and despite the gerrymandering it worked and we got a reprieve and here in california it rained for a few days so everything is just coming up roses this week literally we've held the monsters at bay and climate change doesn't matter for a few days because it rained in southern california and it never does even you know the song and i'd fucking love when it rains it's such a relief because this place is just a fucking it's just it looks like it's just going to go up in flames or just die from dehydration and i imagine then in the coming few weeks it will all return to a brittle and tinderlike again.

I'm sure that the right will regroup around some new talking points and the menace will pick up again. You know? Culturally, I guess I'm approaching two fronts here. All is still garbage. fronts here. All is still garbage. I do enjoy the demise of Twitter and the hilarious sort of downfall of one of the primary narcissists who drive current culture. I mean, there's a few, but three of them took big hits in the last few weeks. Musk, Trump and Kanye are all spiraling like bad. And I got to be honest, it's kind of beautiful now kanye the other narcissist in this exploration has been spiraling for a while uh on and off but the anti-semitic

version made me nervous okay uh you know when kairi irving got on board, I became more nervous. As a Jew, I'm a Jew. And look, I've always known about the strain of anti-Semitic imagery and conspiracy within the black community. I've made fun of it. I've talked about it to black people. I mean, it's in some churches, for fuck's sake. Look, I'm just happy there was some pushback because of the nature and timing of what was going on in the world. I got kind of scared that there would be an alignment between the worst of white culture and all of black culture against Jews. I get it.

You know, it seems to be one of the one things that brings a lot of people together is anti-semitism and oddly chapelle dealt with all that from all sides all the sides that he could in his monologue on snl and he did it so deftly that initially i thought he was giving kanye and kairi a pass and saying basically that their only transgression was saying out loud publicly something that all blacks know to be true and know not to say publicly and honestly he was kind of saying that but but he was able to balance and disarm the conspiracy theory and the perspective of the black community with the culture at large and ultimately the cost of transgression which is a reality when we say shit sometimes, as Dave knows. And it was interesting because the whole riff was about the reality of lines you can't cross. And then he just crossed them again. But it was funny.

I get it. I like comedy that goes to the edge for sure. And because of his skill and the way he contextualize it and the way it was organized and just his nature. It was funny. I got laughs. There was smart shit in there and funny shit in there. I'm still thinking about it. But, you know, honestly, I may think it's anti-Semitic tomorrow.

We'll see. I'll see. I don't know. I don't know. I might have to watch it again. Okay, so look, Wes Bentley is here. Season five of Yellowstone just kicked off on the Paramount Network. New episodes on Sunday nights.

And it was really kind of a treat to talk to this guy. We had a very pleasant chat. Hope you enjoy it. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know,

we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. because it provides peace of mind. A lot can go wrong. A fire, cyber attack, stolen equipment,

or an unhappy customer suing you. That's why you need insurance. Don't let the, I'm too small for this mindset, hold you back from protecting yourself. Zensurance provides customized business insurance policies starting at just $19 per month. Visit Zensurance today to get a free quote. Zensurance, Mind your business.

Pull that thing in. How far? Well, you can move up towards it. You know, it should just be by your mouth one way or the other. How's this right here? That's good. That's good. You're welcome. Yeah. Come on. Have you done any voiceover work? You can move up towards it. It should just be by your mouth one way or the other. How's this right here? That's good. That's good. That's good. You're welcome. Yeah.

Come on. Have you done any voiceover work? No, not effectively. No? No, just ADR. Does that count? Really? Not really.

It doesn't count. What? No. I mean, ADR is ADR, but then you just have to talk normal. Yeah, no, but I tried. I did try voice acting, but there's so many permanent voice actors that are so much better than me. I know, I know. They just give it all the time and they know what they're doing.

And I was, you know, I'm thinking I'm a good actor, but when you try that, you know, and you fail, you realize, oh, I don't really know how to do everything. Right. It's true. Like, it's a weird specific thing where, I mean, I do it, my it's just varying degrees of me going what you know what or what just like different gravelly aggravated voices maybe I can do that I did try I got close to one job and it was

I can't remember what the job was but yeah it was some creature and I basically just ripped off animal from the Muppets and I got as close as I ever got to a job doing that well it's one of. And I basically just ripped off Animal from The Muppets, and I got as close as I ever got to a job doing that. Well, it's one of those things I think, like some people just go talk normal. I did the bad guys, right?

Oh, yeah. And fucking Rockwell, he just talked like himself. And I'm straining my voice. I'm the snake, like, what's going on? And he's just like, hey, man. And I'm like, fuck. Like, fuck you. What are you doing?

Exactly. Give her. Yeah, put a little spin on it, will you? Sam. He's always lazy anyway. Is he? Well, he's always Sam. Yeah.

Have you worked with him? I did. I worked with him on Best of Enemies. What year? That was right before the, so 2017 or 18. I can't remember when it came out. But yeah, he was, you know. He's a good guy.

Yeah, he's great. He had a Southern accent in that. So a little not Sam. He can definitely do the stuff. Oh yeah. Like I mean, like I try, you know, accents or how are you with the accents? I don't know. I think I'm good. And then no one says, hey, you were so good in that with your accent. Are you doing an accent with this one? No, no, it's just straight. Montana is not accent. When have you done an accent? I've've done i did english accent a few times that's bold it worked out well i don't know i never i don't pay attention to reactions to me as much as i can because i learned either feeding like it feeds my ego or it feeds my my whatever my weak yeah yeah thoughts so i i avoid any kind

of reactions you do i do that's interesting because it feeds your weak thoughts. So I avoid any kind of reactions. You do? I do. That's interesting, because it feeds your weak thoughts. Yeah, well I'm more afraid of it feeding my ego. Like, you know, I don't get so hurt when people don't like what I do, because I'm the one trying. You're writing about it, but I'm trying to do it. So I don't really get, unless it's,

if it's an audience member, it takes them out of it. Sure, but you get that speedball going of like a good, good, good, good, good post, good post, bad, bad, good. You just kind of write it out, tweets or whatever. I try. You stay away from all of it. I stay away from it. It's also because I don't want it

to influence my performance. Because, you know, this is a thing that's carrying on season by season. Oh, what, Yellowstone? Maybe on a film I could let it go. Yeah go yeah on yellowstone so there are comment boards that you you specifically don't deal with no i think you know when i was so i you know when i was deep in my drugs and stuff uh that and i i was like i was looking for something i was looking for the recovery i guess sometimes i go online looking for what people said about me and hopefully they

were like yeah you'll be good again one day or whatever yeah and that was a bad idea that's when i started to see all the reality that's when i did drugs for three more years yeah i made it much better but like i like i remember i remember like early you i think i saw that documentary you were in oh my god no right about the guys who are going to make it. Yeah. Who was it? You and- Me and Chad Lindbergh.

Yeah. And a guy named Greg Fawcett. Yeah. And Brad- Who shot it? Brad Rowe. Brad Rowe had a pretty successful career for a while. A guy named Tony Ziera.

Yeah. He lived in the house and he just had his cameras as a director. And he would just shoot us doing stuff. Right, right. You know, messing around mostly. And then eventually it became, but when I started to when American Beauty hit, that's when he decided to turn it into

the real thing. But it stopped, you know, it didn't show you losing it, did it? I don't, you know, to be honest, I didn't watch the new because he recut it. I watched the one we all tried to sell at Toronto. Actually, it was the night before 9-11 and we tried to sell it

and then anyways and then he went back and he recut it without telling any of us and he disappeared and When did you meet

Lee Daniels? I met Lee in New York when I had auditioned for something and got close to it and he he just brought me in to see if

you know if he could manage me. Yeah. And he did? Yeah and he did. Yeah and it was wild. I mean you know if he could manage me yeah and he did yeah and he did yeah and it was wild i mean you know the thing about lee being your manager is he was he had a creative mind right so he really wanted to do really good stuff and so he was invested in that i loved that so yeah i was all about lee yeah and we had a good team thing going the only thing that derailed that was two things he wanted to become a director and i was i was starting to go off the

rails with the drugs and you wanted to become a director, and I was starting to go off the rails with the drugs. And you wanted to become a drug addict. Yeah. I want to explore that avenue of L.A., you know? Different dreams. Not enough people do that. You know, it's weird. I think a lot of people, I think we don't know about it.

It's a weird time in the sense that, like, there was a time where drugs weren't really spoken about as a problem. It was just like when you heard about it, it was like, no, he had to clean up for a little while. Now he's back. But now it's just like a cultural epidemic. It's like he had a cold or something. He'll just get over the cold and he'll be fine. But when people go the way you did, then it's just sort of like, no, that's not good. Because he might not make it.

Yeah, exactly. Because it was before fentanyl was before, but anyone, anytime anyone gets hooked on dope, you know, you're sort of like,

well, that's not casual. That's a, you know, I mean, I thought it was for a minute, but no, it gets,

it got me. Right. But, but going back though, like, cause I don't know the whole story. I talked to Thora. Yeah.

Yeah. A few years ago. That was intense. Yeah the whole story. I talked to Thora. Yeah. A few years ago. That was intense. Yeah, I bet. Yeah. She's intense. Yeah.

Yeah. Both of your lives kind of, kind of went off the rails. It seems. Yeah, they did. It was intense. I mean, it was,

it was a lot. And I remember talking to her as, you know, for that movie, when it came out, we did a US. American Beauty. American Beauty.

Yeah. We did a US press tour. So we bounced around all these cities and colleges showing it, trying to get people excited about it. And I watched it every single time. And it was like, I was really just, my eyes were wide open. I wanted to see all and experience all this.

She felt a little bit like it was making her nervous. She was ahead of me. She knew what was coming. And then it was like- She had had some success before though. She was child actress right yeah that's right it's and so she she but i would see her and in her eyes i would get a little worried that what was coming wasn't going to be that great so where did you like where did you grow up i grew up in arkansas i i like see i don't like i just met someone from arkansas on the road i just did a show in uh i think it was

in dallas and a few women had driven from Arkansas and I realized like, I've never been there. It just, it feels like, I don't even sense there's a lot of people there. I feel like it should be the state model instead of the natural state should be, you know, I don't think I've ever been there. No one ever comes here. You've never seen it. Now what city? Well, I was born in a town called Jonesboro, which is an hour from Memphis. So the Mississippi Delta. And then my parents are both Methodist preachers. And in a Methodist church, they move you around every like four years.

Well, I think that's one of the less aggressive churches. Oh, yeah. Well, it was. Then now they're having the battle we're all having, right? It's political now. So they've had a split within that church. But for my upbringing, it was a moderate church and my parents are liberals yeah so you know i had a little cocoon there i had a little place to like be because the state itself was

difficult for me but they're both the state itself the people in the state oh yeah well i mean but but you knew that early on oh yeah yeah yeah i yeah. Yeah, I knew it right away. Well, see, part of it is that in the Delta, it's majority black. Like, my school was majority black. Most of my friends were black. My teachers were black. And then when you move out of there to the mountains, you realize, oh, it's not like that for the rest of the state. And it's pretty nasty and pretty racist. And I knew it then, you know, because I get-

How old were you when you realized that? I was probably like eight, yeah yeah so first let's talk about method they're both preachers for the end did they both have congregations yeah they both yeah my dad started and then my mom got her um um uh sorry the words escaping me theology degree yeah yeah yeah yeah so she got that after him and then she started having her own churches and they would have a couple churches in the area. I mean, they were usually like 30 minutes away because it's rural Arkansas. Because I noticed that when I was in Kentucky at some point, that there was like literally churches every few miles.

Yeah, yeah. Every mile or so. Yeah, it's like 7-Eleven. Yeah, but how does that work? Is it just based on the personality of the preacher? Yeah, well, some of the churches are, you know, they hire their preachers themselves. But the Methodist Church is kind of like the Catholic Church or a corporation where they... A corporation, yeah.

Like a business, yeah, where the bishops will move you around and tell you where to go. So there's an American Methodist Church organization. Yeah, yeah, yeah, the United Methodist Church. But now it's split. It's going to split into something else with the conservatives going... That way, yeah. I don't know, into something else with the conservatives going really that way. Yeah. I don't know.

The global something or whatever. But wasn't Methodist. Well, what made it different from good question? I, I didn't go to many other, I mean, we'd go visit other churches.

They would do talk in tongues at some churches that we didn't do that. They would, they would like do music and modern music and dance for like hours. We didn't do that. It was just like, it was like the method. You would walk in, you'd sit down,

you'd listen, you'd sing some nice songs, maybe stand up, pray, listen to the preacher and you're out of there. Like the method acting? Yeah, I guess so.

Yeah, like the method Christianity. Oh, that's it. So it wasn't high pressure. No, I didn't feel high pressure. There's no confessions, no booths, no guilt. No guilt.

No strange guilt. Really? Yeah, at least my parents didn't preach that way. So was it about really just the teachings of Christ? You know, that's... And service? Yeah, that's what I got out of it. You know, what I try to tell people who didn't have a church upbringing or they have skepticism for all Christians,

I say, you know, some people just believe in the jesus was trying to teach to love each other yeah they're not even that concerned about him being the son of god or anything it's just that was a different message especially for the time he just came in to say fuck your synagogues fuck your rules stop killing animals yeah stop hating each other and forget the money right and just love each other right so anyways not to go down this too far that's what i took from it from my parents from that church, and I've always held with me. I love that. Yeah, although I don't go to church now.

But stuck with you? Definitely. So you feel the presence of God? I don't know, I mean, I do feel the presence of God. Not in the sense of a church, tells me, but in my own, I have a personal connection with God. And as far as Jesus is concerned, even if he's not the son of God,

he still had, to me, an amazing message. And he's not the son of God yeah he still had to me an amazing message and yeah and he's not the one who was writing all the things after right I mean they're the ones saying he said this or that those gossiping apostles what were they wanting their own thing exactly yeah but he he you know he never said make a church after me either you know these are all the things people wouldn't yeah it became uh just a a great uh sort of uh a basis for a racket yeah yeah right it's a rico take yeah take this take this book and go make some money yeah you can do it empower yeah but do you have siblings i have three brothers really yeah older two one younger. I'm three out of four. Wow.

Yeah. So how'd they turn out? I mean, I think great. Yeah, they're doing great. My oldest brother is in Kansas City, has a wonderful family up there. And the one after him, he works for Corporate Walmart, which is a pretty big trip from him because he was the most liberal, antscorporation of the four of us. A real radical. Now he's working there,

but he does it with the ethics, so it has some balance. One guy with ethics at Walmart. You just need one, right? Sure, as long as he feels good. Yeah, yeah. That's true. And the company would go,

we got one. Got this guy. He said you're all fine. Yeah, yeah. And then the other ones? And my youngest brother, he moved out here in 2002. At first he was like my stand-in then i was he's gonna be my assistant and then for reasons that are you know we might even get into later but that didn't work out and

he but he started doing his own thing and now he works at netflix oh really in a pretty big job there at netflix um um so he you know he's great, he has a family too. They're all doing great, yeah. Yeah, none of the other ones got fucked up. Oh no, not like me. No, we had a great upbringing. My parents are incredible. They did everything they could for us. Can't track it.

No, there's no thing. Some of us don't have a thing. I wanted to go be stupid, and it got real stupid real quick. But no grandpa with alcoholism, none of that? Oh yeah, I had, yeah, my mom's dad, but he passed away before I knew him really. He was an alcoholic. Yeah, and then my, yeah, we have some other family members.

You know, everyone does. That's why I wonder if it, you know, when they say it's hereditary and all that stuff, I'm like, well, everyone has someone. So do we all have it? Well, I don't know if that, I guess, I they say it's hereditary and all that stuff, I'm like, well, everyone has someone. Sure. So do we all have it? Well, I don't know if that, I guess, I wonder how close it has to be. Yeah, right. You know, that'll tip you over.

I mean, it doesn't mean you all have it. It means that you all could be activated. Yeah, that's my, yeah. You got activated. I sure did. I would think I was like trying to activate everyone around me at the same time. Of course. That misery loves company and you want to share the good times.

So how do you get from Arkansas to acting? Well, yeah, you know. Wait, which city in Arkansas did you grow up in for the most part? Well, you know, I would count, so Mountain Home was that real kind of, I don't want to call it a racist city. Not everyone there is like that,

but that's when I, you know, that switch happened. Yeah. And then that's my junior high years. Then my high school years all happened around Little Rock in a town called Sherwood, which is basically part of Little Rock. Is that a big city? Like, I can't picture it. I feel like I've driven through it.

But every city that you hear of that isn't, like, a city city that we know, they're just like, there's nothing there, man. Yeah. I mean, Little Rock actually does have some cool things. It's got the Clinton Library, which is really interesting. Yeah. They're just like, there's nothing there, man. Yeah, I mean, Little Rock actually does have some cool things. It's got the Clinton Library, which is really interesting. Sure.

Yeah, and then the Riverfront area is kind of cool. But, you know, other than that, I wouldn't say. It's like 100, I think now it's probably

250,000 people. It's small, yeah, yeah. Like, I was just in Oklahoma City, and that's pretty small. Yeah, and that's bigger than Little Rock. It is, yeah.

Yeah. So you're there. Are you acting in high school or what? Yeah, the way I got into all that small yeah and that's bigger than little rocks it is yeah yeah so you're there are you are you acting in high school or what yeah the way i got into all that was kind of church and my brothers and my dad yeah church i know it's well because that's really all you got in arkansas is your church and your school for your outlet right oh so they did plays yeah they would do my mom would and it's kind of she got in trouble for later, ran into trouble with the church because she put on a play that I was in on Christmas Day. In the church.

And two people hated it and were mad at her for doing it. Instead of sacrilegious and they had her, they worked to get her removed, which didn't work out, but she just left anyway because she felt so bothered by it. She got reprimanded? Basically, yeah. But I mean, not. What was the button pushing element of this radical play about Christmas? It was just, I mean, it's just that we did it because there's really like some people opening presents

in their attic. Uh-huh. Yeah, it wasn't anything, it was good Christian stories like out of the Bible. It's just a way to tell them. Oh, so you guys, your mom created it? Well, no, it was written. I can't remember the name of it.

It was so long ago. Sorry, apologies. And they got offended. And these two people got offended and they were like family friends too oh really yeah so maybe there was uh other uh motives yeah maybe i guess it could be you know she was one of the first women preachers at that time it could be she was a woman i i don't know you know nowadays i can look at it that way then i wouldn't have thought of that. Is that when you realized the power of theater? Get my own mom fired, yeah. Yes. This is something beautiful.

Well, this is like, I can move people. So you played a present opener? Yeah, basically. But you know what really got me into it was, and you're gonna love this, because it was the Monty Python. My dad watched Monty Python at dinner and we would watch that while we ate. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And we all loved it. Like, you know, the skit show. Yeah. Before the movies. And so we would reenact them. And my brother's name would do it constantly. Everyone did that. Monty Python was so fun.

Yes. Yeah, you could do those, yeah. And everyone knew them, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It wasn't like now where I don't get the TikTok jokes. Right, yeah. Oh, no. There's no way to keep up with that shit.

I don't have any idea. But so we did that, and so improv comedy was kind of what we were drawn to just for fun and taste. Your brothers, too? Yeah, all of us, yeah. Oh, so you do the things. Yeah, so we'd get up in front of people

and do skits and improv stuff, and that led to, in my high school, they didn't do plays because they didn't have the money. We did children's play, but we didn't do an actual play. Yeah. We would do these competitions.

Right. So you'd go around doing like a monologue or a duet. They'd call up the money. We did children's play, but we didn't do an actual play. Yeah. We would do these competitions. Right. So you'd go around doing like a monologue or a duet. They'd call up two people. Yeah. And so one of them was improv, and that was one of the ones I would win in. We'd win all the time, me and my buddies. Were you going for funny usually? Always funny.

Always. In fact, later when I went to Juilliard, that got me in trouble because I thought that's what improv was. Right. Get some laughs. Make them laugh. Yeah all right so you do you're doing that and you finish high school in Arkansas and you're not what are you drinking or anything no no I didn't do anything and I was very much against it and I very much judged my friends if they smoked weed or drank anything or talked about it oh boy boy, there were a lot of people going like,

well, I guess Wesleyan's such a... You remember that guy in high school? Look at him now. You remember all the things he said to us? Yeah, yeah. He did heroin. Yeah, got all fucked up. Not so high and mighty anymore.

Well, he's high. Yeah, that's for sure. He's certainly not mighty. So I, yeah, I did that and it kind of became a thing at my school even. They loved me and my buddy who did the improv. We would do skits for them too and they loved it. Like at lunch and shit?

No, like on stage, they would put up like, you know, like functions or whatever, like someone would come speak. You were doing Monty Python stuff or? No, we do our own things. Oh really? Yeah, we did our own things. Writing comedy. Yeah, I mean.

You were in a comedy team in high school. Sure, yeah, yeah. I'll take that. What happened to the other guy? No one will tell you otherwise now, I guess. He's now in Pennsylvania. He teaches gymnastics to kids. And he does security as well. Out of show business.

Out of show business. Yeah, he went to the Air Force. We split at high school. Oh, so you remember when he decided to do that? Yeah, well, both of us, yeah. Well, but he was going to, you went to the Air Force? No, no, like we both, I went to, I was going to go to Juilliard, and he went there, kind of the same time.

How the fuck do you, like, you know, from Arkansas, you're doing sketches, skits in high school. Skits, yeah. How do you get into the premier acting college in the country? Well, my mom. So I was kind of looking at, I play soccer, and I was kind of looking at soccer schools or that had soccer and a decent drama program.

But I was looking at Western Kentucky or St. Louis University, something like that. So she was like, no, I think you should try Juilliard. And I said, what's that? And she said, it's an acting school in New York I said okay sounds cool yeah they have an audition in Chicago you want to go I said okay sure I'll go and you have to learn a Shakespearean monologue a what really yeah well I knew it from class but I was I didn't quite know what she meant so I chose Macbeth which uh-huh which apparently you don't

not supposed to do and I think that might have caught their attention alone, but it was also I delivered at such a slow pace that their first note to me was, that was great, but if everyone did Shakespeare like you did, it would take six hours to finish the play. Right. But I don't know. I made

a mark. We went up there and I got in. I don't know what they were thinking. Wait, so you did Macbeth and what other one? Oh yeah. So I had to do a contemporary that I had used in the, I can't remember it now. From Life and Death. I can't remember the writer. It's from Life and Death and from Life and Death.

Yeah. If I'm getting that wrong, I apologize. But that was my contemporary and I was really good at that one. I really had that locked down from all the competition. And you just found it in a book? Yeah. It was just in the, you know. Yeah, the monologue book. Yeah, the monologue book.

Yeah, the monologue book said that. So you just go from Arkansas to Chicago with your mom. Yeah. With Macbeth, and you've never really taken in Shakespeare before. No. But did you feel like your pace was just so you wouldn't fuck it up? Well, I was dramatic pauses, right? I mean, I thought, I'm from the film generation.

I didn't see stage, so I was just like, I was doing all these. So you already knew that. Yeah. You were like, I know I gotta. I know how to do that. i gotta i know how to do that yeah space it out yeah really take my break breathe through it you know let them know i'm feeling it yeah i really want them to know i'm feeling where'd you learn that shit where'd you go just like watching other actors i guess or on you know tv tv's a little different right so you're already kind of like just doing the flourishes and yeah oh yeah letting shit sit i love movies i mean movies

were my really my draw attacking so yeah you know that was my influence to get into that yeah yeah yeah wow and they and you got in it's crazy i got in it's crazy it was crazy getting that phone call because i you know i i didn't expect i knew i had a good audition but there were many kids so yeah yeah and what was it so you moved to new york i did i moved to new york at 17 years old 17 because i was young for my class i got turned 18 like the first month where the fuck did you did you live on campus did they have that yeah they have dorms above the you know like on 66 okay by the lincoln center and all that and so um i stayed up in the dorms yeah and. And I went there and I didn't know, I have a clue.

And I had a Southern accent and they hate. At the time, they hated it. You had it? I had it and I could hear it. And I was good at, I have a good ear, so I could avoid it, but not as far as they're concerned. So they had me do extra time. Yeah, the voice and speech teachers.

At the time, that was the intense thing there. It's different now. Well, I've talked to people that have been there. It's very competitive and they kick people there. It's different now. Well, I've talked to people that have been there. It's very competitive and they kick people out. It's like, it's kind of brutal and there's definitely

a system that seems antithetical to creating personalities. And that was my, you nailed it. That was my problem. I don't know if other people have said this,

but when I was there in my first year, I went to the fourth year showcase to see, because they show, you know, to the agents will come and see these fourth year students. So you guys just went as, you know,

because you were new at school. Yeah, they just like, come check it out. What you were working towards. Right. And all I saw was, or heard really, was the same voice and dialect. Yeah. Out of all the men, women,

didn't matter their ages and what role they were playing. They all sounded exactly the same. And they would tell you, that's what we're gonna do. It takes a few years after that to shake out of it and make it your own. In my head, I was like, I don't wanna, I don't think I wanna do that. I was real into, like you said,

having a personality and making it my own. So how was that first year for you? Rough. Rough in a lot of ways, also amazing. I mean, it was eye-opening. I didn't know anything about theater history. I didn't really know how to dig into the depths. Right, of you?

Of me or of the character. I mean, I did a little, I had tricks, as they say. I had things I could do to make you think I was doing that. Isn't that half of it? Yeah, I mean, now it's hard for me to say that now doing this show for so long, because it's become, we can talk about that later, but it's almost consuming. What, Yellowstone?

Yeah, yeah. But at the time, I didn't even know how to dig past my own stuff. Right. Well, I mean, it's always this sort of kind of question around acting is that, you know, everyone's got a different approach to it. But basically, you're pretending to be somebody else. Yeah, that's it. And I think to some people, it just comes easy who the fuck knows you know like it all it really depends on what you expect out of it for yourself i firmly believe that right but

if you've got the knack and you could pull it off yeah and everyone's like wow you were really in it you know like now what was his name again yeah yeah i mean so what yeah you know what i mean you don't know it to anybody to explain that if yeah if it has the effect it has the effect i totally agree yeah when people ask me how you know does your work style conflict with someone else's work styles no we're all trying our best to get out what we need to do to play this character so whatever they're doing that's great yeah when they go action you just sort of like you're in it you're and then like three minutes later it's over and then you do it from another angle and then a third angle and they're already times yeah and they're all different well it's it's i don't think people

especially with movie and tv acting really understand just the plotting pace of it there's no continuity to it i mean just to hold on. It's amazing they can pull shit together. You know, I often think more actors who win awards or whatever should be thanking the editor more often. Because your performance really is the editor's decision to how they put together what you did. It's crazy. Yeah. The way it all works. And like a lot of times when you're doing something, you're like, how's this going to come together? Yeah.

There's no way they're going to make a movie out of this. I do that all the time. Oh my God. I have no clue. I've learned that I'm really bad at that. Yeah. When I read a script, I don't understand what that was. All I can see is the words that I'm supposed to say, but where I'm supposed to be, what's

happening, I'm like, someone has to tell me that. This one we're shooting today, does this happen before or after that thing we did before? After? Okay, good. So I'm tired. Okay. And that's the method. There you go.

All right. So I just walked out of that place, and I'm a little aggravated. Okay. But you know what? You're not. It really is just emotions, right? I mean, really what we're doing, we're just portraying whatever emotion they're in in that moment. Anything deeper than that's like, you know. It's projected, it really is just emotions, right? I mean, really what we're doing, we're just portraying whatever emotion they're in in that moment.

Anything deeper than that's like, you know. It's projected onto it. Or you can, you know, you can certainly fill it up a backstory if you want. But that sort of seemed to be what you were good at from the beginning. Yes. Was having kind of like a,

you know, kind of wide open with that shit. I was, yeah. I think I was more ready to learn and do all that than I think the other kids in my class at Julia because they had all gone to acting classes and stuff. So they had a preconceived idea of what they wanted to do. So what were they trying to do to you in that first year? Well, they wanted to really get my speech down.

I have a tongue tie. Yeah, mine's all fucked up. Yeah, so it's like hooked. So it's hard for me to hit the T's and stuff. So sometimes I hit the teeth and it sounds like a duh instead of a tuh. Dude, my L's are like W's. Yeah.

I lisp a little bit and it's just like, it's a disaster. I don't hear that, but I- No, I know, but like, they're rolling L's. I can't do the rolling L's at all. No, I have rolling L's, which means I do them with my throat, not my tongue. Oh, I see. It's like la. So it's not even a la.

There's no le. It's just like la. I don't know. Same. I couldn't get my jaw to close as I did it, so it's not even a la. There's no le, it's just like ga. I don't know, but no one's. Same, I couldn't get my jaw to close as I did it, so that would quiet the voice. And they got hung up on that. They got real hung up on that, man.

They made me stay after class. Holy shit, I would go nuts. Whenever it was a group, they would focus on me for longer than everyone else. Really? Yeah. And it was really irritating. Yeah, you gotta stay after. Hey, hillbilly.

We made a mistake in you. Can we fix it, please? What were we thinking? You fooled us with your pausing. We thought you were a genius. You're a master. Yeah, no, you're just dumb. Yeah, I got in here because I acted.

And you guys bought it. Yeah, I acted. I fooled you into thinking I was a good actor. So what else happened? So did they beat it out? Something must have took. Yeah. Well, no, I actually ended up leaving.

But you must have, like, the process must have learned something. Oh, yes. Yes. Sorry. Mostly what I learned was, so a way I've told other people is what they do there is they're going to strip you down the first year, take away all your ideas of take away all those tricks take away all those plans you have yeah take them away and they said you were going to be a blank slate yeah and i liked that i thought that was right yeah something about that sounded right to me be a blank canvas for every but not if they

terrorize it out of you no they didn't that part they didn't that was real easy for me to attach to because i wanted to go far. You know, like I learned stories there. I don't know if this is entirely true, but the Moscow Theater, they would, you know, back in the day, they would rehearse a play for a full year before they put it on. Yeah. And I thought that sounded amazing to go into that depth into the characters and explore all that stuff.

And even if it's hard. So part of me was really ready to do that even though i wasn't capable yet i was open to that you know burnthal uh yeah yes i do yes yeah he did that he was like up in russia doing russian theater no i didn't know that yeah yeah he's like hardcore that guy wow yeah he's a real kind of like you know do the work dude okay yeah i gotta talk to him because i because I don't really make the effort to go there. Like, I think I just, like, I'm ready for something. For me, it's not, I always saw it as just, like, dropping all the things rather than adding all the things.

Right. Like, I needed to quiet all the me. So, I will go silent. I don't take notes. I don't write anything down. When you're preparing? Yeah. I never write anything down when I'm doing it because it takes me out.

So you locked into the blank slate thing, but you didn't like the process. No, I didn't like the sound of the actors. Yeah, well, the blank slate's one thing, but then to sort of wire you all to kind of void your personalities. Yeah, what they're going to replace it with is some robot, some Juilliard robot. Or just a boar. We want the kids to go to sleep in the theater so the adults can watch well i think they're just it's sort of like you know mammoth does sort of a take on that too where he believes that it's all in the lines and it doesn't matter even whether you can act do you know what i mean yeah it's like you know it's so it's demeaning almost yeah it's like you're here to serve my story

go fuck yourself I understand good writing can carry the day and you get out of the way of really good writing as best you can but no that's no fun either what happens did you blow up did you lose your mind

I started to get sick of it you got in trouble I somehow avoided trouble there I did start to blow the weed there To lose your mind? I started to get sick of it and- You got in trouble? Well, one of my friends, I didn't really. I somehow avoided trouble there. And I did start to smell the weed there though. But that actually, that was the one that helped. The weed was one that, because I was a temperamental- Take it easy.

Take it easy. I don't mean helped. You know what I mean? What I'm trying to say is I could see people using it as a medicine. Because at the time, i had a hard temper and i was really quick to beat myself up if someone judged me and something about it did switch that stuff oh yeah uh and i'm not advocating going down that road i'm just saying it's if everyone's going down that road we live on that road you can just go buy it like it's fucking mcdonald's's why your Postmates orders are all wrong, by the way.

Probably. To be honest with you, I've got like, you know, I'm 23 years something changed over. And that's the one I miss. And I'll tell you, man, it's like, when you see it now, like, people just like, it's cheap. And you can just buy it legally. Yeah, they're doing it everywhere. I know. And like, you know, I see, because there's dudes at the comedy store that are in the

business, and they bring these buds and shit. I'm like, do you know how rare that was when I was smoking weed 23 years ago to see one of those buds? You're like, where did that come from? It's like gold. Yeah, like Canada? Yeah. Hawaii?

Yeah, it's crazy. I remember that. Yeah, especially the New York dirt weed. That was my first experience. What, going downtown, getting garbage? Yes. In Washington Square Park? Oh my gosh, yeah. especially the New York dirt weed. That was my first experience. What, going downtown, getting garbage, and watching Square Park? Oh, my gosh, yeah, oregano out of the bed. Sure, or they had delivery services. When I was in New York, there used to be, like, this health food store.

You could go in with a card. Oh, really? And they'd set you up, yeah, yeah. Wow, yeah. It was downtown. Okay. I can't remember who gave me the card, but it was like, it was never that good. You just had to find a guy.

Yeah. And now you don't even need a guy anymore. You walk into the store. A store you though it's crazy because also like they it's broken down to all its components and people always talking about all that stuff yeah yeah well this one morning you won't even feel it but it'll make you nicer yeah yeah what how do you not feel it what are you guys doing i know you guys stay away from the thinking it's like i can feel it yeah tugging like, because I'm old now and I'm 23 years sober, right?

And there's part of me that's like, I need to smoke weed. But I know I'll smoke it every day. Yeah. All day. It'll be, yeah,

you'll lean on it. I mean, that's what we do. Every day. We're looking for something to lean on. Every day. Yeah. I would smoke it every day

and I would love it. And I would just be like a moron. Yeah. Within inside a year, I'd be like, what day is it? You know, I'm almost that way already. Back to moron. Yeah. Within an inside ear, I'd be like, what day is it? I'm almost that way already.

Back to the bliss. Yeah. Oh, sure. So, yeah. But how'd you get in trouble for being funny over there? You said you got in trouble for that. Oh, yeah. So we would do improvs. And I would try to make a joke out of it, make them laugh.

And they were looking for you to explore the character with depth and really like- Oh, improvs within characters within plays. Yes, right. Or just within plays. Yes, right. Or just a concept. Oh, okay. So, yeah. Oh, yeah, that's right. We would pick out a monologue.

Right. And then you would go in depth with that. Right. Interesting. And then he did one where he just really went at me. I was playing John Wilkes Booth. Yeah. And he really went at me.

Hilarious guy. He's so funny. Yeah. An actor, too. Classic comedian. Yeah, yeah. He wanted... You know, I wasn't really trying to be funny with him i was

just it was light still so my ideal still wasn't about the depth and he hammered me hammered me until i was there you know as they say he just didn't let me go until i got there and i did and it was eye-opening it was beautiful really yeah and it was it was something i used to this day that now what he's doing you know no longer i'm trying to make myself laugh it really is exploring the depths and the realities of a day-to-day character. Really? Yeah, so I was appreciative, but it was embarrassing.

How did he make you do it? He just kept stop thinking about it. He was this older man, John Stex, and he'd just sit like a little wise man and barely move. Yeah. He'd go, stop, stop, stop. I'd be in it, stop, stop, stop.

I'd stop and I'd be frustrated and looking around at everybody, thinking about them judging me. And he said, Wes, you, stop, stop. I'd be in it, stop, stop, stop. I'd stop and I'd be frustrated and looking around at everybody thinking about them judging me. And he said, Wes, you have to stop thinking. Yeah. You've got to stop thinking. Yeah. Go.

And it was, I'd do it and he'd go, stop, stop. Oh, so the self-awareness, you mean the self-consciousness. Yeah, he knew I knew I was in that room. Right. He's like, you have to be in the room John's in. You gotta stop being in this room at Juilliard and start being in that barn where he's about to get burned out. Right. Gotta be in the room John's in. You gotta stop being in this room at Juilliard and start being in that barn where he's about to get burned out.

Gotta be in that room. His life's in danger. Stop thinking about us. And eventually you got there and you realized, okay, I gotta do that. That's something I can use. And I have. So how do you leave Juilliard? Well, I...

So a friend wanted to go audition for Rent. And I sort of sang. Yeah. I didn't want to go to class that day. So I said, I'm going to go with you to your audition to Rent. Yeah. It was a cattle call outside of Bernie Telsey's office. Yeah.

I know that guy. Yeah, yeah. Didn't he have a little theater too? He might have. Bernie Telsey. He was, yeah, but he's, I don't know if he had a theater, but he's, you know, he's the big man on Broadway for casting. Yeah, right, right.

Broadway caster. I remember meeting him at some point. Because I lived in New York. I'm sure you did, you know, he's the big man on Broadway for casting. Yeah, right, right. Broadway caster. I remember meeting him at some point. Because I lived in New York. I'm sure you did, yeah. He sent me out for things that I never got. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I got lucky with him.

So standing in that line outside, another cast director had walked down the line, was handing out her card. And she handed her card to me and said, come read for this movie later. And I was like, okay, is it a porn? Yeah. Like, why are you handing out cards? and she said no it's a it's legit just come down here and read for it who was that meredith jacobson uh-huh yeah and she's no longer doing it and she barely was doing it then yeah and so um i went in i actually got the callback for rent and that made me feel confident enough to go i'm gonna go try this audition and my friend left went back to school and I went to go to the other audition and seven callbacks later I got it and Kate Walsh was in it and uh it was a tiny little nothing movie yeah but getting it

I went and told Julia I just said look I'm out of here I'm gonna go do I'm gonna go to work yeah I'm gonna go work on this stuff now and um and they asked me to stay to the end, actually my classmates wanted to make sure I stayed to the end to do the project we were working on. Oh, for the first year you mean? Yeah, but I wanted to go then. I was so, I was just, it didn't feel right for me. Yeah, did you go?

I went, I left, yeah, I went left. You didn't stay for the year? Oh no, sorry, I did stay for the year. Yeah, my friends were right, and it was nice to stay and it felt right to stay. Get some closure and like good luck. Yeah, and like. Not just be like, what happened to that guy yeah right exactly oh he got strung out on heroin haven't you heard really made something of himself what class did we take

for that but but so so that was the first movie and that helped you and then like well i mean you did a few right yeah well say that one helped me get an agent there. And that helped me book something called White River Kid. Yeah. With Antonio Banderas and Bob Hoskins. And that was shot in Arkansas. So Arnie Glimpsher directed it. He had directed.

Who else was in it? Antonio Banderas. Yeah. Bob Hoskins. Bob Hoskins. Ellen Barkin. Yeah. Ellen Barkin.

Those are big people. Yeah. It was a big movie. Yeah. And it was great to go back to Arkansas where I had really put up with a lot of borderline bullying from certain people. And it was satisfying to go back and get all these phone calls from all those kids.

Hey, wanna come hang out? Hey, Wes. Talking to me like they were my friend or something. Right, right, right. So there was some satisfaction in that for sure. Oh, that's good. Yeah, but then that, and then I auditioned for, after that I auditioned for American Beauty.

Yeah. It kind of kicked my way in the door there with Lee. Lee helped me just, we went to LA. Lee Daniels. He's like, just go in. So you met, when did you pick him up? That was in New York after Juilliard. Okay.

So we, I met him through a casting director as well. Are you guys still friends? Yeah, we're still friends, yeah. Yeah, it ended weird bad because I was starting to go off the rails and he was, you know still friends? Yeah, we're still friends. Yeah. Yeah. It ended weird bad because I was starting to go off the rails and he was, you know, he was ready to move on

and direct. So we had a moment there where we didn't talk. But it was good after that. Nothing worse for a manager than a client that's fucking out of his mind. Oh, he was done with me.

I said no to everything. Yeah. And he was just like, can we do something? Like leave the house? Like drugs, you mean? Wow. All right, so you do American Beauty, which just like, can we do something? Like leave the house? Like drugs, you mean? Wow. All right, so you do American Beauty,

which was like a great movie. Thank you. It was. I didn't make it, but. No, but you were great and everybody was great in it. It was, you know, it just. I appreciate that. You know, you did,

I think you took some comedic flack for the bag, but it had nothing. Yeah, but it's great. Yeah, you had nothing to do with that. It was great. No, I love people make fun of the bag i mean it was borderline even for us you know you guys were laughing at it yeah well it was you know it's on the fence it's like he's sure it's a bag and even thora was like i don't

get it well we shot those you know we shot that scene and she kept after every take she said i just don't get it you know i'm giving it borderline crying you know trying to really make this something and she yeah i don't see it. No, I found the whole thing effective. Yeah, it was the writing. I think it blew up for me. And I've had a lot of years to think about this. And I think I'm right. I think a combination of the great writing, I did a decent job.

And the fact that nobody knew who I was really made this character stand out. Because if they had kind of even known me or other movies had come out, job and the fact that nobody knew who I was really made this character stand out. Yeah. Because if they had kind of even known me or other movies had come out, I think it would have had less of an impact because I don't think I was that good at it. Right. No, I think you were. I thought you were very good at it. But I think now talking to you and knowing where you were coming from as an actor, you were right for the part.

Oh, thank you. Right? I felt right for the part. Yeah. As soon as I read it, I just knew it was mine. I didn't have a doubt in my mind the whole audition process, I should have. Brad Renfrow was the main guy they wanted.

He's great, I'm a great actor. It's so weird because adding the two of you, jeez. The late 90s, man, we were all doing something. But he's gone, isn't he? He's gone, he's gone, yeah. Bad, it was bad. Real bad, he was real bad, yeah. Did you guys hang during the using times?

No. Really? I think that's probably good, yeah. I don't think I would have made that. I tended to hang by myself when I got to the dangerous stuff. Well, so, all right. So you do this amazing movie. Renfro was great, too, though.

He was a good actor. Yeah. So then everything takes off? Yeah, yeah. And overnight, I got sent these faxes of what the press were saying about before they were going to release it. Yeah. And the things I was reading were just blowing my mind because it was a level I never thought I'd ever, ever reach or someone would ever say about me. So, yeah.

And then, you know, immediately recognizable overnight. Everything changed. Yeah. about me. Right. So yeah, and then immediately recognizable overnight, everything changed, everything changed. It's hard to describe even now because it's like, it's every facet of your life. So I could like list everything. But now you're like the king of the town here. Yeah, it was, yeah. And that's not nothing in Hollywood.

No, no. You got clothes, people wanna buy you things, people wanna give you stuff. Lots, yeah. That was the trip because I grew up, I'm not poor, but lower,

we didn't have a bunch of money. Definitely Walmart clothes and you hang on to it as long as you can to be then gifted a bunch of stuff. Yeah. It just,

I could see the world for what it was in a moment. Taking pictures of you? Taking pictures. Oh, the pictures I hated. I hated. I got really nervous about the attention

because- But didn't you do like fashion spreads and shit? I Oh, the pictures I hated. I hated. I got really nervous about the attention. But didn't you do like fashion spreads and shit? I did, yeah. I didn't want to. You talking about Time Out New York and all that? Whatever, I don't know. Vanity Fair, yeah, I remember all that. All that stuff.

Yeah, it was weird. I didn't want that side of it. I think it's like you're one of those rare people for them, like, you know, that they saw a movie star, right? Because you could act and you're a good-looking guy, and that doesn't happen all the time. Usually the actors, you know, are kind of squishy and weird-looking sometimes.

Yeah, I guess so. So you've got all the shit working, and they're like, this is our guy. Yeah. We're going to hang clothes on him for the rest of time. And pictures, pictures, pictures. Yeah. Yeah, they did that. They tried to do that.

But that was part of my rejection, because I had a hard rejection to all this, or tried to. You pushed back. I did, I let go, I should say, because it was friendly, I let go on publicists immediately. I was like, this is not for me, I don't want to go running around, you know, sticking strawberries in other girls' mouths.

And I went to, I didn't want to. That's pretty specific. There was a few, right, that was kind of my line, like what are we doing here, like, and this is not me. So, you specific. There was a few, right? That was kind of my line. Like what are we doing here? Like, and this is not me. So, you know, it was the 90s too. It was what we all were kind of, we wanted to be legit, like, you know, have credibility.

We didn't, we weren't like sellouts, all that. We were trying to avoid all that. Who's we? Just the 90s actors. I mean, in general, the vibe in the 90s. Who were your peers? Well, my peers at the time that I, well, people who would inspire me

would be more like Nirvana. Oh, yeah. Okay, yeah, right. And Pearl Jam, that kind of vibe. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The whole thing was like rejecting fame, rejecting attention. Yeah, yeah.

Or money. Corporate money. Yeah, corporate money. That kind of thing. Yeah. Now, like, you know, if you don't sell out, you're a moron. You're an idiot.

They want you to sell out the minute you sign up. You gotta become your brand. You're a brand. No, man, no. Yeah, man., you're a moron. You're an idiot. They want you to sell it the minute you sign up. You've got to become your brand. You're a brand. No, man. Yeah, man. My brand is schlub. Schlubby. Well, I mean, so where did you start to feel it come unraveled?

They were, you know, the pressure of having to decide what was next. Did you get, were you offered Spider-Man? Yes. You were? Well, yes. And I- Did you get, were you offered Spider-Man? Yes. You were? Well, yes, and I don't know the real story. You know, I always hear it, and I thought I knew at the time, all I understood to be I had the offer, because it was up to me yes or no.

From Lee? Lee was telling me that, yeah. So it was up to me yes or no, and he was constantly pressuring, and I was a no from the beginning. At the time- No Spider-Man. Superhero movies were like, you know, nobody was, we had come off the end of the Batman stuff spider-man superhero movies were like you know nobody was we had come off the end of the batman stuff without killing the nipples so this is like

so spider-man that was the beginning of the whole marvel thing yeah right yeah it was kind of even pre that yeah still kind of but it it definitely was cooler than i you know became cooler than i expected it to be and not that i want i was that may probably maybe say no even more yeah but i just didn't want that to be. So you turned down Spider-Man? I turned down Spider-Man. Is this when you were using? I was starting to use, it wasn't heavy until later,

but like I was, yeah, that was starting to have an influence on my life. Well, so when did that happen exactly? Oh, the drugs being the influence? So, you know, cocaine was kind of the first problem. That happened when I was shooting American Beauty, first time I tried it. But I didn't do it a bunch.

It was kind of maybe on the weekend if someone else had it. But I was open to it, yeah, let's do that. So what year was that, hold on. 99, 2000. Oh yeah, so cocaine was still kind of around its back. I feel like it took a hiatus. I think it did, but it was definitely cooking in. Everybody was all about it then.

Heroin was coming like right after that, but it was definitely cooking in. Everybody was all about it then. Heroin was coming right after that, but it was still a Coke kind of town then. Yeah, yeah. So you're doing the Coke on American Beauty. Doing the Coke, drinking more, you know, the weed and all that, and heavy weed affecting my performances, affecting my press.

Were you high during American Beauty? No, not at all. Oh really? Oh, you never got high in the roles? Yeah, I did. Yeah, not there. That was the, I had somehow dodged it. Starting at Four Feathers, which was not long after that,

I was a certain section of that movie, I was doing quite a bit of blow. It wasn't that I was doing it on set, but I would definitely not be off it. You know, the effects were still there when I was trying to work. Can you see it? Not in that one.

In your performance? Because I was young, I think I somehow got somehow got away with and most of it's in morocco where i did not do any of that stuff so it was when we got to london getting that kind of trouble yeah all right so then game the game of their lives yeah so i'll just say in this period i was saying no a lot yeah you know that what happened after american beauty was basically i got offered everything in my age group. Everything. And I had to pick. And I was not ready for that.

I didn't really want to make it at a young age. Yeah. I knew the good roles were coming. Sure. So, you know, it was hard for me to pick stuff. And Game of the Lives is a soccer movie, so I was, I love soccer. Yeah. And so I wanted to kind of push it.

Did it work? It's not a good movie. It's not a bad movie. It's not a good movie. It's just kind of the story itself the guys so you're turning down all these defining movies

of your generation yeah because you want to you want to be a good actor and you want to hold out and then you did a bunch of terrible movies yeah

just beyond yeah and you start using drugs yeah yeah so it will like you said the wheels came off. The decision making was gone.

I mean, I should have. But what precipitated, was there a thing where the wheels came off? Yeah. Well, I was in a bad relationship, a relationship where we weren't helping each other. And that was certainly a catalyst for it. She definitely made it okay for me to say no in a stupid way to a lot of things oh really so you're like like locked in yeah i think i was getting a reputation for being difficult and and don't even bother with him anymore kind of a thing and then you know and no one was really

able to get me out of it not that they should have that didn't work out what the guy from american beauty yeah yeah that Yeah, that's... That's it, yeah. That was the talk. He's a, you know, bust. Yeah. Or a cautionary tale, as they say. So you started to feel that? I started to feel. I could tell because the offers were getting worse.

The money was getting lower. Yeah. The tomb? The tomb. Oh, my God. The tomb. That was an Edgar Allan Poe... Was the tomb supposed to be an Edgar Allan Poe short story about Legia? Uh-huh. And they called it the tomb that was an edgar allen poe was the tomb supposed to be an edgar allen poe short

story about legia uh-huh and they called it the tomb later and yeah i was a i was really messed up on that that's that was my low so those are the movies that era to hit bottom on the movie called the tomb i never thought about that it was a choice. I'm gonna pretend like this is a choice. So who the fuck turns you on to dope? Just people I was hanging around. You know, so part of it was that- Were you smoking it? Was it that tar shit? Yeah, I only smoked it.

No, I should say I injected it once and that was awful. I never liked dope. I never liked it. I hardly liked Coke. But once you start doing it, you're doing it. And I was also killing pain. At this liked, I hardly liked Coke. But once you start doing it, you're doing it. And I was also killing pain.

At this point I was dealing with this bad relationship. It was so. It's right around 2005-ish. Yeah, six, seven. After the soccer movie. Yeah, 2006 through eight were my lows. That's when heroin was prominent. And you were just smoking it?

Just smoking it. And I did it to balance the coke feeling i thought that was smart you know you gotta sleep sleep i was just desperate to like i don't think i slept except sundays it was only when i sat down to watch football you couldn't even take the edge off no it was oh i mean i was i was kind of a it was scary man i was all week i'd stay up all week I'd go looking all night for it. Where, downtown? Downtown.

At the time, Hollywood, before they kicked everyone out of Hollywood. For the tar shit? Tar. Yeah, no China white stuff or anything like that. That was the tar. Yeah, that black. Out here, yeah.

That shit from Mexico. China white was on the East Coast. Right, or Australia. Yeah. Australia. Yeah, I did it once in Australia. Yeah, that was the good stuff. Yeah, yeah.

I know, I'm kind of happy that it wasn't. Because you could just snort that stuff. Right, yeah. Right? You've got to smoke that tar shit. And I did a lot, yeah. I did a lot. So you got strung out.

Very strung out. Very noticeable. My family were trying to figure out how to intervene. My brother tried. I left the girl I was with and moved in this tiny little apartment in east hollywood like little armenia and i just shacked up did a bunch of drugs and made this terrible music on my computer and watched watched too many cuts of my movies constantly i was trying to like i was just trying to heal whatever what was the point of watching the movies i thought it made me feel

better about myself i thought because i was really like you know it was serious getting off skinny and weird and pale and sweaty I got like I got like sort of bloated my face and you know I didn't get the skinny so much by so I you could tell my eyes you know drinking a lot too yeah I would you I didn't that's another one I didn't like but did you know if you know if I had you weren't enjoying yourself at all no because I was more of a's another one I didn't like, but did. You know, if I had- You weren't enjoying yourself at all? No, because I was more of a psychedelics guy. I did all that because that was the crew I was running with.

They went that hard stuff. And so, and once you start, you know, you're locked in. I did not like it. That's what's crazy about it. You didn't like it for three years? I just liked the feeling of it. No, isn't that crazy? I mean, of course there were moments where I thought I did, but it was just because I was easing the pain of withdrawal.

Yeah, right. It really wasn't like I was loving, immediately with heroin, it's just because I was easing the pain of withdrawal. Yeah, right. It really wasn't like I was loving, immediately with heroin, all you're doing is trying to ease that withdrawal, it's not, for me it wasn't, I didn't get that euphoria everyone gets. Never? The 10,000 orgasms like. Not even the one time you shot it?

No, no, I felt sick and I don't like being drunk and stuff where you're incoherent, you can't keep your head up. Right. And that's all that did. Wow, so you you just you did all those years of horrible horrible drug use man i did all this but you never had a good time no no i mean no i would go dancing ecstasy ecstasy actually that's different we skipped the ecstasy period that was kind of the bridge way and that's why i would go dancing i dj'd a bit oh yeah like house music and but so like during this time you're doing p2 yeah

the ungodly oh man yeah ghost rider yeah was that nicholas cage yeah and i had a good time on that actually even though i didn't do a good job on it. I really could have done a better job with that. Everyone else was doing some fun stuff, at least, and I think I just was trying to get to the club. Yeah. Oh, really? Yeah, Sam Elliott was great. Yeah.

Everyone on there, I had a great time on that one. Was Nick good? Did you talk to him? Yeah, I had a good time with Nick. Yeah? Yeah. Not much. He had a baby on the way,

and he was trying to keep clean and stuff, so we wouldn't have clicked. Right, right. Stay away from that trailer. That's what they told him. Yeah, that's basically what was written on my forehead and my shirt, I think, at the time.

Stay away from that guy. He's going to suck everybody in without careful. He sure will. So, the tomb, that was it. That's your bottom. Yeah, the tomb. Are you high on that movie? Oh, yeah, very.

That was St. Louis. Dolan's Cadillac? What is that? So that's a Stephen King short story, and that's where I started to get the inkling that I wanted, that something was amiss. I needed to get clean. So I met a girl on that named Jackie, who's now my wife.

And so I met her. You met her fucked up? Well, I came into Canada, couldn't carry anything with me, and they didn't have anything in this little town. So you're sweating. I was sweating it out. I had some methadone that I snuck in, and so that eased me off it,

and then I was just kind of drinking. So you were on methadone? Well, I was not prescribed it or anything, but someone gave it to me to ease it. So you wouldn't lose it? Yeah, yeah, because they knew I was going to if I didn't, and I would have probably- So you had to smoke a lot of heroin

to get that strung out. Oh, I was a lot, yeah. I pr knew I was going to if I didn't. And I would have probably. So you had to smoke a lot of heroin to get that strung out. Oh, I was a lot. Yeah, I prided myself on being the guy who could do the most and stay alive. So what was your daily habit? At the worst of it? Yeah. I don't remember now. Definitely more than a gram.

I mean, probably like a couple grams, right? Right. So like a couple hundred a day? Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I threw all my money at it. And then when i didn't have money i'd beg for more and and then uh and then the running out of money and meeting the girl going to canada find yourself in you know positions that were oh yeah yeah one guy came to my house and kicked the door down i was i was afraid one guy was gonna like shoot me i was i was walking back and forth in my house yeah checking

the windows car apartment really checking the windows, our apartment, checking the windows, just thinking they're gonna show up any moment, yeah. Oh, and probably a thousand or something. I think I worked that out, but yeah. Yeah, they were scary, and you know, like I said, I'd go downtown, that was scary too. I'd hang with people all day.

I'd pick up someone downtown, go downtown, someone who's living on the street maybe, I don't know. We'd all wanna go get drugs drugs we'd all go get drugs and go smoke downtown in my Cadillac yeah hang out all day like that

wow it's crazy you're lucky you weren't shooting yeah yeah yeah I drew a line there for some reason

I know it's one of those lines I drew that line too did you yeah yeah you because you heroin as well not really

okay I just didn't take to it but it was definitely blow and I smoked heroin a few times. Yeah. But it was you know, you're just, when you're in drug world you're in drug world. Yeah. But I think that was what, that was

my line was because I felt like if I did that, if I was to try heroin by shooting it then there's the possibility I'd never get out. Yeah, I thought that too. I thought that. cause I saw, I hung with people who did that and they would just, they like shit themselves,

they were laid out on the couch, they were like abscesses all over their arms. So you're hanging out with those guys? Yeah, cause they're also doing meth. They were doing the meth heroin flip. So you were a meth guy too? No, no, I didn't. I would judge them as,

by then I was smoking crack and making it myself. I was like, you guys are gross and dumb. And then they're like, I didn't. I would judge them as, you know, and then by then I was smoking crack and making it myself. I was like, you guys are gross and dumb. And then they're like, you're gross. So you're making your own crack. You're basing. I'm basing, yeah. And that costs a lot of money too, yeah. A lot of money.

A lot of money. To ruin Coke. Yeah. To figure out how to do that. Just the learning curve is going to cost you a bit of money. Yeah, yeah, true. That was the worst when it would disappear

in the water. Like that was just, that was going to be terrible four days. He fucked it up. He didn't have the baking soda. He didn't pull it together. No, no.

Oh, there it goes. Oh. And you drink it. Yeah, yeah. That's right. Yeah, whatever it takes. Oh, I would dig around on my floor.

I had back problems for a while because I would dig around on my floor I had back problems for a while because I would dig around on my floor for hours looking for stuff oh my god I was a real skeez like I was not this keeps getting

better and better I was an ugly drug addict I know that you can say generally and you're just hanging around well that's something

I always say about the thing that you don't hear talked about talked about when you do get so it's not just the drugs it's the situations you're in that become deadly. Yeah. Is that like, you know, yeah, you can die from drugs, but if you're in that life, your possibility of getting killed exponentially grows every day you walk out the door.

Yes. Yes. By many, many factors. Yeah. You driving yourself. Driving, buying, hanging out out people getting rolled yep you know money that's uh yeah yeah or just somebody who wants to you know if you're all high and somebody's just feeling like you don't know this person who knows what they're like who knows what they're

gonna do yeah they're gonna lose it and you're nodding off right and they're gonna yeah it's it's well good for you for living how long how many years were you at that shit i mean i it probably was only four years but it's so funny that you're like you never living. Thank you. How many years were you at that shit? I mean, it probably was only four years. But it's so funny that you never liked it, but you were freebasing. I never liked it, but I figured out how to make crack. You must have liked that. People like that generally. Yeah.

Well, it's always the first few times, right? And then the rest of it is chasing that feeling and not wanting to deal with it. Yeah. Not wanting to deal with actually coming off it. Yeah. Not having it. I just wasn't. I was afraid of deal with it. Yeah. Not wanting to deal with actually coming off it. Yeah, not having it. I just wasn't, I was afraid of dealing with it. But if you didn't get the orgasm brain from the dope,

you probably got it from the base. Yeah, the crack was different. Yeah, it definitely did this like, that poof and all that. But it's like literally a second. And then the rest of it's you're just crushing. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you're looking for it again. Yeah, great.

Breaking off another thing. In your carpet, in your trash can. I think I did it in the bathroom. Did you have psychosis? Did you get psychosis? Oh, yeah. And once I learned afterward what an overdose is, I think I overdosed every day.

Yeah. I was hearing stuff. I was sweating. Yeah, yeah. All the things. That's always exciting, yeah. Yeah, seeing, oh, I had full songs written of seeing people in my yard

or knocking on my back door window. And I thought one woman was standing outside my door just holding her arm up and looking at me, frozen. It was a tree. The next day, I realized it was a tree after I came out from under the table. How fucked up were you? Were you like, the lady turned into a tree?

This stuff is really good. Wow. Magic. So, like, is anybody trying to help? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, but what can anyone really do when you're that far? I mean, I was like, like I said, of the amount I was doing. You're just in this apartment?

Like, where was all the money from? Just from work? Work, yeah. So, that's why I would go do those jobs and get messed up on them. I was just trying to stay high. You were just in this apartment? Like, where was all the money from? Just from work? Work, yeah. So that's why I would go to those jobs and get messed up on them. I was just trying to stay high. You were Charlie Sheening it. Yeah, I gave up on the idea of my career.

Like, I was like, I thought once, you know. But you were still taking shit. And you still had an agent. I still had an agent, yeah. And, you know. And Lee hung out to drive. Yeah, he left and became a successful director. I'll say, yeah.

And watching that was hard but also inspiring you know it was inspiring because it felt like you know i could you know i don't know it's a piece of that which i'm not i see now though but but but part of me was like oh i'm attached to him somehow right weird sure yeah well i mean when you're like delusional and fucking strung out on drugs, you're like, that's me. That's part of me. Everything was. I'm connected to that. Yeah. Yeah.

Did you, now let me just ask you, because I'm curious. Did you really think you were doing something with the music? Was that? Yeah. I mean, I thought it was cool. I thought it was like, it was, but no. I was just using loops and, like, you know. Oh, God.

You really did it. You really, that was like the solo journey, man. It was every caricature you can imagine of a young actor breaking through too early. Well, just the drug addict stuff where you're just sort of like alone, celebrating your genius of nothing while you're making your music.

And you get to people who don't want to listen to it. No, you said to the people. Oh, sure, yeah, yeah. Check this out. They put it, actually two of my songs on a, well, they were going to put it on a soundtrack, but they were just people. Oh, sure, yeah, yeah. Oh, my God. Check this out. They put it, actually, two of my songs on a, well, they were going to put it on a soundtrack, but it didn't happen. They were just appeasing me, I think.

So how does it, how do you finally get help? A couple things happened. Like, you know, I went up to Canada, shot that movie and met my girl. Nancy? Jackie. Jackie. And she, I left after that,

so it was like a long distance thing. And, um. But you didn't get clean yet. Oh, I tried to go back up with her and I got rejected by Canada. I got, you know, they. Wouldn't let you in. Wouldn't let me in. I had to turn around.

I couldn't go back up. Would you have a record? Yeah. I had been arrested right before that movie. I had, after Heath died, who was my close friend, a couple months after that, I got arrested for possession and passing a counterfeit hundred. What? I didn't know it was counterfeit.

I mean, I'm literally out of my, it could have been Monopoly money. So how, when did you meet Heath? I met Heath on Four Feathers, yeah. Okay. And we hit off right away like brothers. Like we were very close immediately. So that's how you spent time in Australia?

Yeah, yeah yeah well no actually i went and shot ghost rider in australia but he was there shooting um i can't remember the name of it yeah but he was shooting something oh so like his career just watching that happen while you're in that room picking through your carpet you know it's i'm gonna tell you about that because this is a he we did um four feathers and he sorry, Lee Daniels wanted me to do Monsters Ball, and I had been talking to them about doing Monsters Ball. What part would you have played in that? The kid, the one Heath played eventually,

who shot himself, the son. Oh, right. And I decided I didn't want to do it because it was too much like American Beauty, and I thought, this is too similar, and I want to avoid it. And so they were like, well, you've got to do it. They're counting they're counting on you and so I said well what if I can get Heath Ledger yeah and then Heath came over to my hotel room and I would just begged him and I was like do a southern accent I'll show you and he could do it anyway he didn't really need my help and really

I was like well you you want to do this role it's amazing I just think it's too close to what I've done and he was like yeah I'm gonna I want it. And it turned, he flipped his career where people were like, oh, he can, you know, he was sort of more recognized as a rom-com actor. Potentially that kind of actor. And I knew he was something better. He knew something more than that. And he showed it on that movie and it got him going, right? So you guys were buddies before you were using, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And we partied together, but we were never like a problem with each other right it wasn't like you did that we had a good time that's when i was having a good time yeah that when i did all that i went i went alone like a cat going to off to the woods do you know what happened with him did he get strung out or was that just an accident that's an accident yeah from i hadn't been speaking to him less than because he had a kid and I was getting strung out and I was trying to avoid bringing anything into his life, which I regret now, but yeah, that's, from what I understood, he wasn't doing crazy stuff

or anything. Yeah. Yeah. That's too bad. It was sad. How did that affect you? I had a weird reaction to it. I denied it immediately and I wouldn't go to the memorial because I was also messed up, but I denied it. And then it hit me months later. That it happened?

Yeah. But you were too fucked up to really process it? Yeah, and I felt guilty almost. Like somehow I had something to do with it. Or that you're alive. You survivor's guilt. Yeah, that too. Yeah, that's right. That's right, I still kind of have that a little bit, yeah.

Because I did way more than him and I was way worse off than him. And I just sometimes feel like, you know, that's unfair. Yeah. He won an Oscar, didn't he? Or the movie Brokeback. Did he win one for Dark Knight, right? No, he got close to Brokeback.

Oh, yeah, Dark Knight, right. Yeah, Dark Knight he won it. But Brokeback probably was what he should have won it for. I mean, I love Dark Knight. Yeah. He blew the lid off. that's amazing yeah but i really thought broke back was a harder thing for him to do yeah and he did it so well so anyways i who knows what the words you can never how was your jealousy factor 110 like i was off the charts with dark night because i'm also a

batman fan but and i was scared for him when he took it. I said, you know you're never gonna do what Jack did. And then he was like, so that, yeah, I mean, but I don't feel that way now. I felt very strongly that then, I wanted that. I wanted that, right? And so that just added to the shame festival. Yes, he died, he came out, he was amazing. There's a lot of things just beat me down.

Any confidence I had was at a low point. Wow. Yeah. All right. So you try to go back to Canada, and they won't let you come in. Yeah. And your chick is up there. Yeah.

Oh, she was with me when I got rejected. And she had to go up, and I had to go back. That's a proud moment. Did you know you had gotten arrested and shit? Yeah. back that's a proud moment did you know you had gotten arrested and shit yeah well i you know i had forgotten about it until that moment until i had voided courts and all this stuff yeah and um so i went and fixed it after that but yeah okay so so what what sorry it's crazy sometimes when i roll back everything it just like what the hell man well it's interesting because when you're in a chaotic life just how much you get done that's it's not worth anything but there's a lot of

activity you haven't heard my music you don't know what it's worth but there's just so much activity because your life's a fucking chaotic drama yeah all the time oh yeah yeah i really didn't want it not to be i guess i. I could have stopped it at any moment. No, you couldn't. Well, I guess some things I could have, right? Right. At some point, I could have been like, all right, you're doing too many drugs. That's what eventually happened.

Yeah, but if you're a drug addict, it's not an easy moment to come by. No, and it doesn't. Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off, but I was going to say it doesn't happen like that. How did it happen? So I started to think think i want to get cleaned up for her but when i went back to la i just of course fell right back into it maybe went worse because it was all starting to come i'm never gonna get everything dead the girl you can't get you can't get into canada can't get the fucking where am i gonna run to when donald

trump's eventually elected i know we're all're all wondering. We've got to wonder again now. Yeah. I got my out. What was that? Oh, you married a Canadian. Yeah. You fucking. You figured it out.

I did. I did. I was ahead of it. Yeah. So Robert Downey Jr. actually being open about his recovery and how far he went. And I had met him a few times. He was in jail. Right.

He did real time. He did real time he real time and he was doing the same shit and so when i saw him get cleaned and and career could come back it was like the first thing a moment like you can do that you can do that so you're like i can be spider-man still yeah there's still let me we'll reboot it. Yeah, yeah, yeah, older Spider-Man. That's what I'm talking about now. So you'd met him, but he didn't reach out to you, but you were inspired. Yeah, it was just his press, you know, and just the way, and so it was like, I can do this.

And then after that, it was, I moved to my mom's house in Baltimore. Proud moment. Lived there for like three or four months. Yeah. Oh my God. The star is back. I'm so proud of you, son.

I'm so proud of myself, mom. I did it. I'm back home. Yeah. And you did it cold turkey? No, it was just random money. It was part of it. So money.

So then it ended up just being alcohol, which I hated then it was like i had no so combination of that was drying me out perspective was changing with the girl uh mom was reinforcing my you know giving me some confidence back yeah and i was auditioning in new york i was taking the train up there so you went you just went home you crapped out here you probably had debts oh i did i was that's what i was avoiding was someone i owed and then fixed that when i came back eventually a dangerous guy he said he was but you know it's hard to know who really is or not especially in that game some people just so you couldn't afford drugs you tapped out you were in debt and you were scared scared but you kind of wanted that girl and you kind of you didn't have anywhere to go. So you went back to your mom.

As we do. Yeah. And then I booked a job. Where's your dad? My dad was in Arkansas and I would have gone to him too, but it was easier. They got divorced at some point? Oh yeah, they got divorced right after I left high school. They've never split. See what you did?

It's all my fault. Yeah. Mama. You know, I was the only one of my brothers i think who didn't feel that way i was sort of like it's life this happens i'm sad still sad but she took you in and it was good it was great and so and i booked a job there and then when i got on that job i went and shot in argentina it's called uh there be dragons uh-huh there was an actor on there who was sober and he was just didn't know i was having trouble because I was sort of dealing with it then, just drinking and hanging out, white knuckle as they say.

And my future wife was with me. She came with me to Argentina. Just to watch you? Yeah, she just came to visit and be in Argentina. Yeah. Which was amazing. What did she do? She was an associate producer on a television show

up in Canada and she had been an AD on a few projects and before that a journalist. All right. Yeah, legit person. Yeah, so she comes with you. A real person. And you're there with a sober guy. Yeah, and he started talking about how,

he was talking about driving in a car and looking outside and looking at how beautiful the day was and how lucky he was to be alive and all that stuff. The gratitude trip. Yes, and as they say you know it happens like that you know yeah you just hear it from somebody it clicks like oh i want that yeah right i want that so i went to him and said help me and he said okay just come with me to some meetings and it was great because it was argentina it was small english-speaking meetings like five

people yeah so i didn't feel overwhelmed yeah like in la i would have i think i would have walked right out yeah of those big you had seen half the guys you used with and your dealer exactly eventually one of you would fuck the other One up. Yeah. Yeah, it was like it was you know, standing outside of those like stand outside the club the same people Yeah, which is fine, but it wasn't gonna help me. So I you know going and seeing going seeing him in these meetings and already having my Connection to God so I had my higher power already. So you could tap into that shit. Yeah, it was all like, it just worked in,

it was like, he was like my day. Yeah, he was the guy that sent the lady who turned into a tree. That's how he, he was looking for me. He was. By scaring me, but looking for me. Exactly. Oh man, there were a few times I got pulled over downtown

that I could probably thank God for that. Sure. I got out of that. Yeah, but so that guy, so he inspired me. So I went in and I got sober and it was like, it turned, I flipped just like that. I was like, oh, I don't need any of it. Right. I need this light. You know, people out, all that stuff.

I got really, really happy. Happier than I've ever been in my life and worked on that project and I was moving and that's, so that ended all that for me for now. I shouldn't say ended as we don't say that.

But you stayed in the game. You stayed in the rooms and stuff. Oh yeah, yeah. I don't go as often now because, you know, it's been over 10 years for me too. So I, you know, an old timer once told me,

remember it's a bridge back to life. Don't get, don't make AA your entire life after a certain time. He doesn't mean immediately. Sure, sure. Of course, of course. This is over time. But you know, some people need it for the long haul.

Yeah, yeah. They keep the thing running. Which is great. Because then I can go show up. Yeah, exactly. And I also do therapy and I have a great family. I got a lot of- Well, I mean, that's what's sort of amazing.

Because, I mean, you were really- You know, it's a great story because you have a family family. I got a lot of... Well, I mean, that's what's sort of amazing because, I mean, you were really... You know, it's a great story because you do, you have a family, you have kids, you see them together, you know,

your skin looks correct. You don't look like you did permanent damage. You never really stopped working whether you liked the projects or not. No.

It seems like you just kept working. I did. Yeah, I got lucky. American Beauty is still what I get work off of. Really? I got this job at Yellowstone. No, I'm kidding. lucky. American Beauty is still what I get work off of. Really? I got this job, Yellowstone, the one in Thailand.

No kidding. Off of American Beauty, yeah. How so, how is that possible? Well, Taylor, you know, so when I had seen Taylor's stuff and he had stuff coming out, I was like, we gotta beg to get on one of his projects. I really wanna work with this guy on something. And out of the blue, he came to me

and asked me to do this Yellowstone show and I was like, well, yeah, but when I talked to him, he told me that it was from American Beauty when he was younger, he just stayed with him all these years and he always wanted to work with me. Wow. Isn't that crazy? So that way, right, you made an impression.

I made an impression. And now you've been doing this thing for five years? Yeah, five years, yeah, yeah. Five years off American Beauty, yeah. But it's a good gig, you like the character? I love it, well, five years. Yeah, yeah. Five years off American Beauty. Yeah. Five years. But it's a good gig. You like the character. I love it.

Well, so I got a lot of feelings about this because it is by far the hardest thing I've ever, hardest character I've ever played within the realm of acting. It's the hardest thing I've ever done. How so? Well, you know, first season he was not he was sort of it wasn't heavy. He's like the the the son. Yeah, he's the one of the sons of the main rancher guy. I mean, the big mega rancher, John Dutton. And he's he's one of the sons of John Dutton and the lawyer who kind of keeps the ranch running from a legal perspective.

Also, potentially a politician that could help change the rules for the ranch. Right. So that's his directive by his father. Yeah. And anyways, we got into the second season and it got heavy quick because of a lot of stuff that happens in it,

for Jamie, my character. Yeah. I realized when I started to play it that I'm gonna have to do something here that I haven't done ever before. It's open myself up to just pure sadness because he's just a sad guy. I couldn't, I was like, anger was playing in it

and other emotions and they didn't feel quite right. The things that hide sadness. Yes, right. That sadness, I tell people all the time, anger's not really an emotion, it's a reaction to sadness. Yes. It's a reaction to embarrassment. It's always a reaction, right? Yes, right. That sadness. I tell people all the time, anger is not really an emotion. It's a reaction to sadness. It's a reaction to embarrassment. It's always a reaction. Yeah.

But the sadness was. Shame, shame, anger. Yeah. Anger is an all-purpose reaction. It's the reaction. Yeah, exactly. You can even react to being funny. Yeah.

Like even when you're happy. This is fucking amazing. God, I love this. Yeah. But I, so I realized I'm going to have to open myself up to sadness. And it really dropped me into like a weird place. Not weird, but like heavy place quick. Like why?

What did it do? What did it open? What was the trauma? Was it the shame thing or what? I don't know. It was, I think because I have always avoided just pure sadness. You know, I've dealt with it with humor or I've because I have always avoided just pure sadness. You know, I've dealt with it with humor

or I've dealt with it with drugs or I've dealt with it with anger. Right. But I never just let it be. Yeah. But you think you're a depressed guy? No, I think,

well, I think we've all got that in there to whether you, that becomes the prominent feeling. Sure, sure, sure. So yeah,

my, my, my, whatever depression I had in there, yeah, was starting to come out. yeah, yeah.

And so it got really heavy quick playing this character and then not only that there was complicated things about him and stuff so it it's been very hard to um but also very rewarding I said I want to balance this by saying this is what I wanted right I mean this is what I'm like this is where I wanted to go as an actor for a long time and you've had and now you you've got you know full story arc it's not like one movie no it's not a one-shot deal you got to live in this guy and you the character evolves and changes every season every almost every scene for him that's what got trippy i you know there's not a lot of screen time for jamie but i think i think i'm grateful because every

scene started to become some new traumatic event or some reveal of sadness or depression that he has or whatever is broken in him. Broken, he's broken. And you've got a heart. And he's got a heart. So it keeps getting- And he's emotional. Shattered.

Yeah, and he deals with emotions, oh not deals with them, he reveals or shows and they take over him more than like the cowboys and everyone in Montana apparently. Right. Except this guy. Well I mean, people love the show and they take over him more than like the cowboys and yeah everyone in montana apparently yeah except i mean people love the show and they love all the spin-offs i mean it's huge yeah yeah it is the biggest thing i it's the biggest thing i've done the biggest the most i've been recognized i've got recognized by my voice for the first time or ever it's like you're very close to doing voiceovers now come on yeah i'm just trying to

get a job by the way that didn't happen. You just want to do a cartoon. I really want to do that animal. I got that thing down. But, all right. So, I think we did good. You feel good? Oh, yeah, yeah. How old are your kids?

My kids are, well, my son's going to be 12 next week, and my daughter's 8. And they're my life, man. They're everything. I just love being a dad. I didn't want kids at all. I was not supposed to have kids and then i had them as soon as i as soon as i knew my my wife was pregnant i this is everything i ever wanted it's weird and it's i would give anything for them i'd give up anything i'd do anything for them what's good well i mean you already have in a way i mean it's it's

good that yeah you know you're present for this shit, given where you were. My son is named after the person who helped me. So he is- The guy in Argentina? Yeah. So his name is my life line. Yeah. Yeah.

Beautiful. Good talking to you, man. It's great talking to you. I do this every day, man. I see why you do it. It's fun. It's like a meeting. Yeah.

Where you can get in trouble. Exactly. Yeah, you know what? We've talked enough. That was Wes Bentley, who's just tuning in. What am I, on the radio? Look, you can watch

Yellowstone Season 5 on Paramount, new episodes on Sunday nights. So, you know how this goes these days. Just hang out a minute, will you? Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category.

And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. It's a night for the whole family.

Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com.

Okay, look, here's my recommendation from the archive today. Episode 653 with Lorne Michaels. It was seven years ago this week that we posted this episode. And look, I'd been talking about the guy my entire professional life about the audition. I've been talking. I used to compulsively talk about it. Or is that the right word? Or just I would talk about it with everyone who was on SNL.

And and it was like the you know, what I thought happened in that room was I was obsessed with and really believed to a certain degree. I wrote about it in a book. It stayed with me forever. And then I talked to Lorne, and we did it over two days. And I don't know. You know, he definitely spoke to it, and I believed him. I chose to believe him. Listen, I came in here.

I waited an hour or so. Tracy Morgan was out there waiting with me. Do you know what day of the week it was? We were in production? Maybe. I wish I remembered that. I decided before I got here, I was smoking a lot of pot at the time, but I thought maybe I shouldn't smoke too much.

And I got here and Tracy Morgan was there, and his hair looked very shiny. The hair was in very good shape. Yes. And I waited a while, and I was reading a Bruce Wagner book, I remember, and I came in here. Had he been on stage the night that you performed? Who, Tracy?

Yeah. I don't know if he was. I mean, I know that we went to Stand Up New York. Right, I remember, yes. Anyways, I come in here. In my recollection there were books over here uh-huh was there it's probably pretty much the same as it was always right steve higgins was there i walk in and you said um uh how was conan last night did they laugh did they laugh at you it's better when they laugh and that that was nice. It was nice. I was scared. And you'd done Conan the Night before.

Right, yes. And then I sat down, and then you used a zoo analogy for comedians. Have you used that before? Monkeys and all that. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So that's a regular thing.

No, it wasn't a regular thing. It was just my sort of beginning to piece together where comedians stood in hollywood right the the lions are scary when you go to the zoo yeah first first uh thing you want to see is the lion because the lion is the king of the jungle and uh and uh it has it's regal yeah and uh the second thing you want to see are the bears because they're the strongest and the fastest and the third you want to see the monkeys because they're funny and occasionally one of them jerks off. Right. And what I said, I don't think you had added the jerk off line yet. Because I said, as long as they're not throwing their shit at you.

Yeah. Got nothing. Yeah. Got no laugh from you. Well, I would have gone softer as you saw. Yeah, yeah. Exactly. And Steve Higgins was like, this is not going well already and did you

know steve before kind of i met him once or twice like on the scene right and then you just looked at me for a little while uh-huh and uh and i and and steve actually went lauren and you said it's it's it's important to look in someone's eyes you can see a lot in someone's eyes and then i was trying to exude some star quality of some kind, which was not successful. God, you really remember this. Yeah, I remember. You can get every WTF episode ad-free with a WTF Plus subscription. Click on the link in the episode description or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF Plus.

On Thursday's show, I talked to Bruce Wagner, who I love. He's one of my literary heroes. I love reading his books. I've been with him since the first book years ago, Force Majeure, and in and out throughout all the books, a very dark wizard, one of the true dark wizards, one of the great Hollywood satirists. dark wizards, one of the great Hollywood satirists. And man, I think I was able to manage the conversation this time because I really wanted, I saw, I've always seen him as this mystical wizard

and I was like, where does it come from? I needed to know. And I think I got there. This Friday, I'm in Eugene, Oregon at the Holtz Center for the Performing Arts. That's November 18th. Bend, Oregon at the Tower Theater on Saturday, November 19th. Asheville, North Carolina at the Orange Peel for two shows on Friday, December 2nd. And then Nashville, Tennessee. I'm at the James K. Polk Center on Saturday, December 3rd. And my HBO special taping is at Town Hall in New York City

on Thursday, December 8th. There are still tickets for the second show. Go to WTFpod.com slash tour for all the dates and ticket info. Here we go. Some dirty Telecaster's music. Thank you. guitar solo Thank you. guitar solo Thank you. guitar solo Boomer lives. Monkey in La Fonda. Cat angels everywhere.