WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1385 - Robert Siegel

Episode Date: November 21, 2022

Writer-director Robert Siegel wanted to explore a career in either comedy or journalism. It turns out he got to do both as Editor-in-Chief of The Onion. But while The Onion was mostly comedy tinged with tragedy, Robert tells Marc how he wanted to flip that dynamic once he started writing screenplays. They talk about how the stories he told in The Wrestler, Big Fan, The Founder, Pam and Tommy, and now Welcome to Chippendales all begin with a very specific type of great American tragic hero. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store

and ACAS Creative. Lock the gates! Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fuck, Knicks? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron.

This is my podcast. Welcome to it. I am obviously not at home, not in the studio. I'm in a motel room, a hotel room. What is the difference? I'm in a hotel room. It's 10 to 12 at night. I'm in Bend, Oregon, sitting with a half a loaf of bread.

Some guy threw a loaf of bread on stage. What was it? A couple weeks ago, someone threw some homemade candy pecans. But this guy at least waited till I was walking off. And all of a sudden, like a football, this fresh loaf of bread comes flying onto the stage here in Bend from the Rise Up Bakery. And I'm starving. I'm fucking starving. I just did like an hour and a half.

I was only supposed to do an hour. So I can tighten it up for HBO. That's not happening. I had a woman come down from Portland to open. She was very funny. Tori Ward. And I've been out here on the road for what seems like a long time and i it was wild it's been a wild few days well let me not get too lost here uh today on the show robert seagull is on he was the he is the former editor-in-chief of The Onion. He wrote the movies The Wrestler and The Founder.

He wrote and directed Big Fan with Patton Oswalt, and he was the writer and creator of the miniseries Pam and Tommy. He's got a new miniseries called Welcome to Chippendales with Kumail Nanjiani, and it's very good. Kumail's very good in it. Everybody's very good lately. Am I getting old? Am I letting go of things? He was good. They hid his massive muscular frame pretty well, because we all know that underneath that, Kumail is ripped for his Marvel thing.

But no, in this one, he's not supposed to be ripped, and they hit it well with clothing from the 80s, but it was interesting talking to Robert because he was kind of around in New York when I was there, and the onion was very important. He was there when it moved to New York, so all in all, a very good conversation. Also, there are a few tickets left for the second show of my hbo special taping at town hall in new york city that's the 9 30 show you can go to wtfpod.com slash tour for tickets

or go to the townhall.org oh my god you guys i'm fucking wiped i did these shows in oregon i added a bunch of shows in order to continue preparing for the hour which got moved up so i needed to fill it in so i booked shows in eugene and bend i had booked a show i believe in eugene a few years ago but it just wasn't selling tickets so i bailed i don't think it was Ben, but these both sold out. And they were both pretty solid shows. There was definitely some issues in Ben. Some poppy mic issues. There was some talky audience members.

It's kind of dickish, but it was all good. audience members it's kind of dickish but it it was all good but i'm just like now i'm gonna drive back to portland three hours to take a plane from portland to burbank this is how fucking this is how much i don't want to deal with lax i flew up here i flew to portland and i could have flown into eugene from lax i could have flown out of Bend to LAX, small planes. But I'm like, you know what? I'm just going to fly into Portland from Burbank, rent a car, stay the night, drive casually down to Eugene, and then casually over to Bend, and then a little panicky to Portland the next day, only so I can fly into Burbank. I'm flying back from Portland with a stopover unheard of just to go to Burbank. That's how much I don't want to deal with LAX. Burbank's

like 15 minutes from my house. But anyway, none of this matters. If you don't give a shit about this stuff, I'm all right. I've been eating really badly. And I talked to a fan tonight who is a doctor who has some company that she's basically dealing with wellness around blood sugar. And I've got to fucking, I got to change my life, man. I've been on the road too long. I've drifted. I'm still exercising. Fine. I still, I don't, I'm just not

eating well, but it's just the nature of it. I'm tired. You guys, it's fucking midnight after a show. And after I stuffed my face with wings and a baked potato and some chocolate pretzel, peanut butter things, that's where I'm at. That's the party I'm at. Late night, in the room, candy, talking to you. There's part of me that thinks I need to keep it down because of the other room. It's late. So I flew into Portland, and this is the weird thing. Like, I get there, and the hotel's pretty good,

but I find out, because of Twitter, that Michael Ian Black, we were going back and forth and he was in Portland and I wasn't working. So I got to Portland. I went over and saw Mike over at Ship John, got suited up because I brought the wrong jacket. I have a nice warm Filson jacket. I'm like, but I kind of want to look cool. Brought the overcoat, chilly. But I went to, I went over to Mike's and I bought, I got some some pants I got a shirt and then my gloves are all fucked up so I had to go back the next day and buy gloves but Michael Liam Black was playing at Helium and I haven't seen him I haven't seen him do stand-up probably since the mid-90s I don't

think I've seen him in person in decades and him and I have this weird contentious Twitter thing that's kind of snarky and funny and And I always seem to lose, but, uh, but I hadn't seen him. So I said, look, I'm in town. I'm just hanging out and I'll be, I'll come by. And so I come by, you can come on stage. I'm like, what? But I go over to helium and it was just like, you know, Michael and I have a past in the, in the sense that like, you know, I was a dick and you know, but we're both older and I watched him do his standup and it's very tight and it's very, um, uh, specific and personal and funny. And I told him, I said before the show, don't bring me on stage. Don't disrupt the flow. I mean,

if you're doing well, we don't need to fuck off, but he brought me out of the middle and we just kind of went back and forth. He asked me some questions, we got some laughs and then I, I got off and he just went back into his act. But it was good to see him. I'm at that age where, you know, it's just good to see people are still alive. And he reminded me of David Cross. So I texted David Cross. I don't know. Just getting old, I guess. I went to the heart doctor last week because I just felt like I should go to the heart doctor because I was talking to people my age who, you know, were having clogged arteries. And I'd just been to the heart doctor. So I went back and I said, look, man, are you sure that I don't need to get an angiogram? He's like, what? And I'm like, I'm just like, you know, I'm just talking

to these guys and they, you know, they got their arteries clogged. He's like, yeah, but we did all these tests. I'm like, yeah, but I don't know, man. Can I just get a preventative one? And he was like, you don't have to. Let's just do this test. I'm like, all right, fine. I'll come back for that one. That'll make me feel better.

So here's the other thing, though. One of the reasons why I flew to Portland is I just wanted to feel the Pacific Northwest. And I'd never driven to Eugene. That drive was okay. It was a little bright, not that interesting, but let me tell you, man, the drive from Eugene to bend stunning. And it just reminded me about what I loved about the Pacific Northwest. I used to think about it constantly. I was talking about the Pacific Northwest constantly. I really wanted to be up around Seattle or up even further north. I still want to be up in Canada and Vancouver, but there's

something about the landscape here that really is overwhelmingly beautiful to me. And driving from Eugene to Bend was just, it just reminded me, it got me into that zone of just, you know, that spectacular pine forest, the big sort of heavy feeling mountains. There's all this lava stone everywhere. It was just, it was fucking great. I ate good food in Eugene. I went to a seafood place. They just boil crabs there.

I don't know what I can tell you other than I'm tired and I got to shoot this special because I need a break. My body needs a break. But that aside, locking into the landscape up here and being able to lose myself in it was fucking great. And as I said before, the show in eugene was nice it was good it was funny the show in bend was great you know sound problems aside and now like i don't know i'm just left to my own thoughts here in the hotel room i couldn't live in this place these is like these small kind of ski townish kind of places. I need to get home. I'm going to cook for Thanksgiving. What are you guys doing? What's going on? I'm going over to Gimme Gimme Dan's house. I think I'm going to smoke a brisket. I'm going to make a chest pie

and I'm going to cook some stuffing. What are you guys going to do? You're going to cook? what are you guys going to do? You're going to cook? It'll be fun to cook. So look, Robert Siegel, didn't know what to expect, had a very pleasant conversation with him. Welcome to Chip and Dale's premieres tomorrow, November 22nd on Hulu with new episodes Tuesdays.

And this is me talking to him back in the garage. They vary by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products

in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Are you live here? No, I live in New York. You still live in New York?

Yeah. Huh. Always. I've never lived here. Ever? Never. You're just out here doing promotion, publicity, the junket thing for the Welcome to Chippendales. Correct. Trying to get some people to watch the show. What are you doing for that? And there's a premiere tonight.

Oh, there is? Yeah. Have we started? Did we just slide into it? Yeah. Are you familiar with the show? That's how it works. We're doing it. I am familiar with the show. It's happening. It's already happening. I've seen it. Yeah. It was happening in your car. I have this new technology. Oh, my God.

Yeah. On the way over when you were on the phone. I got it all. Oh, shit. You caught me berating my assistant. So you live in the city? I do. I live in what's now called Nomad, which is 30. They're trying to raise the rents and get the poor people out. Put a name. They rebranded it Nomad, which is a great name, North of Madison.

North of Madison? Doesn't Madison run? Exactly. Makes no sense. It's Madison Square Park. Okay. All right. which North of Madison? Doesn't Madison run Exactly makes no sense It's Madison Square Park Okay Alright So

Oh you stayed in New York So I'm on 30 Yeah I'm like near near right near Koreatown Yeah You weathered COVID through this

in New York the terrifying I did bodies in the streets COVID In an apartment with no yeah no outdoor space

Yeah We made we made frequent use of Central Park. Yeah. My son's a fisherman. Uh-huh. So we would, it was kind of great. A fisherman professional? Like on the boats, out of Queens?

He wants to be, kind of. Yeah? No, he's just obsessed with fishing. It's the only thing he's interested in. So we go to Central Park. We spent the, it was kind of nice because the city was empty. Yeah. Hold on.

I really have to. I have to appreciate the fact that as opposed to say Park. We spent the, it was kind of nice because the city was empty. Yeah, hold on. It's like that. I have to appreciate the fact that as opposed to say my son likes to fish, he said my son's a fisherman. No, it's what he would put, if he paid taxes, that would be on his tax form. He's so. How old is he? He's 14 now. He's a fisherman. I like it.

Yeah, he's a fisherman. Okay. There's no other, he has no other defining traits. So I can, I have to call him that. Anyone who's met him would not dispute that. Yeah. How often does he fish? Every day.

It's like heroin. He needs a fix. Wow. Yeah. My brother's got a kid. He gets antsy and itchy. My brother has a kid that's that. He's a fisherman.

He's a fisherman kid. Needs to fish every day or play with reptiles. Yeah. Yeah, we have reptiles. Yeah. Oh, my God. It's an adjacent. Yeah. we have reptiles. Yeah. Oh, my God. It's an adjacent. Yeah.

It's probably diagnosable. Does he have a lot of friends? Yeah, yeah. All the fisherman community. There's like a, on Instagram. Uh-huh. Yeah. Does he deal with grown-up fishermen?

Yeah, yeah. He aspires to. Yeah, we're bad parents. We put him on boats with like 55-year-old men, sort of salty types that we just kind of rolled the dice on. He's having the time of his life? Oh, he loves it, yeah. He goes to school on Governor's Island, which is, you know Governor's Island? I do.

There's like a fishing-themed school there. Really? Called Harbor School. It's not really fishing-themed. It's Governor's Island. That's not Roosevelt Island. It's Governor's Island with the weird, creepy, abandoned hospital on it? Yeah.

There's like, yeah. They all have like abandoned sanitariums on them. Every island in the New York area. In New York. Yeah. It's near, it's like the tip of the island. Yeah. Near Battery Park.

Yeah. So. Anyway. So he's going to be, so he's taking this seriously. I love it. Very seriously. I love it. Very seriously. The fisherman thing. And you're behind it 100%.

It's either go with it or fight it. Well, you're going to buy him a boat when he needs a boat? It's extremely wholesome. Yeah. We'll buy him a... No, he's interested in freshwater fishing mostly. He's not really... He's not like...

All right. So this is not a profession. Well, he wants to. He wants to be a sportsman. He wants to go to school on a, he wants to go to a, get a bass, a fishing scholarship. Yeah. Oh, good. All right.

Which apparently they offer in the South. Well, that's exciting. Typical. Yeah. Sure. So what, like I haven't, like I feel like we met somewhere because we were sort of in similar circles back in the early aughts. Yeah.

With comedy. Were you in New York? Yeah. I think I left New York. We left after 9-11. So we left 2002. Okay. And I left with Mishnah.

She couldn't handle it. And there anymore after that. And we came out here. But then I was back and forth a bit. But I mean during that crux, that time, when you were at The Onion, which was when? I was at The Onion from 94 to 2003. Yeah, so you were around?

Yeah, I was in my late 20s, early 30s. Where'd you come from? I grew up on, you mean like originally? Yeah. I grew up on Long Island. Really? Yeah, Long Island, just kind of Jewish suburbs. on Long Island. Really? Yeah, Long Island. It's kind of Jewish suburbs. Like the cradle of comedy. Yeah, which one?

Seinfeld. Great Neck? No, Merrick. Oh, Merrick. Yeah. I knew a guy named Eric from Merrick. Eric from Merrick? Yeah.

Oh. So you came up there. Did you, you never tried stand-up? I tried stand-up once in college. I grew up, so I went to University of Michigan. Yeah. On a football scholarship. Is that true? No.

So I went to Michigan. Yeah. I dabbled in the comedy scene there a little bit. Yeah. Just because I was interested in – my two interests were comedy and journalism. Yeah. Which unexpectedly combined later on at The Onion. It worked, yeah. Yeah, because I didn't know there was such a thing as comedy journalism.

Yeah. But, yeah, in college I wrote for the school paper at Michigan, and then I also dabbled in stand-up comedy. I did it twice. Yeah. And I think I would have been – I sound like a real asshole for saying this, but I think I would have been good at it. Yeah. And I think I would have been, I sound like a real asshole for saying this, but I think I would have been good at it. Yeah. Because I just, I have the genes, like, you know, long, I mean, I come from the same soil as. Yeah.

Right, of all the Jews. Of all the, you know, Ray Romano, Jerry Seinfeld, Howard Stern. Yep. I fit the profile. Right. I had the dad who, you know, i had the difficult father what'd he do like for a living yeah he was a school uh school psychologist really yeah how how was it difficult uh i shouldn't have brought that up because then you i knew you were going to probe that uh

uh well no i mean well i mean he's like he was a difficult guy. Yeah. A difficult relationship. He was an unhappy, you know, volatile temper. Uh-huh. My point, I was only bringing it up to say that's part of the magic. The genome? That's part of the magic formula. It's one of them. Dominating mother, you know, maybe a sort of slightly detached father. But I'm curious about psychologists in general.

Not necessarily poking around at your father relationship yeah he went into psychology i think because he had uh you know he he had problems and he he went to psychologists right he was young yeah in his in his old journals i read about his attempts to kind of figure it was before any he really just needed to be on prozac right and he would have been fine but is he around no he passed he passed away a couple of years ago. He was an older father. He was born in 1926. Wow. Yeah. So he was like an old dad. So he brought a lot of baggage to the anger. Yeah. No, he had a lot of baggage in the house with me. So comedy, I definitely, you know, I was sort of born and bred for comedy. So I did stand-up comedy once at the Union, the Michigan Union. Would you write jokes? Yeah, I wrote some jokes.

And I think I was really good. I think I could have been, I don't know. I feel like I could have been in that. I certainly have always identified with stand-up comedians. Well, I mean, I think that your skill as a joke writer, that can carry you a pretty long way, even if you're not inherently comfortable on stage. I love the on stage. I love everything comedians say they love about doing stand-up comedy.

Just that rush you get that it's described as a drug, that feeling you get when you get a laugh. I mean, I've always loved that just in my personal life. Sure. I'm always looking for people to make, I like to make people laugh. But I just, on my first time doing it, I got that feeling. But then I also, I think I was lucky to also somehow on some level, I didn't really articulate it. But I recognized that it was going to be, it was a promising debut. But it was going to be, I sensed it was going to be that 20 year grind to get to the top.

Because, you know, you make it. Maybe get to the top. Maybe get to the top. But let's assume you're optimistic about it. You've got, you know, I was 19 at the time. Sure. I was going to be staring down 20 years of that chuckle hut. Maybe.

It could have unfolded though, is that you did stand up for like five years. Who's the youngest breakout comedian you could name? I mean... Chappelle was probably 16 or 17, maybe 18. I mean, I'm not... Chappelle and... But that was a million years ago. But what I'm saying is that... He's just

a supernatural talent. The average- I don't know. Great. Who really broke when they were younger? Comedians break in their 40s. No, that's the old model, I guess. But you could have had the exact same life you had.

You could have done stand-up for five years, got the handle of joke writing, and realized there was more money in writing. Yeah, except I wouldn't have imagined that. I know. You don't know that at the beginning. No. But that could have been how it went. I just saw a lot of depressing, depressing.

It's just the comedy life. As someone who's prone to depression, I just was like, this is not a healthy. This wouldn't be a healthy. Who'd you see? Who'd you see? Hold on. I'm going to move this in a little. Who'd I see?

That led you to believe that this life was horrendous. Did you witness it up close? No. Did you have friends? No, it's so common, it's a cliche. I know, but I don't know if it's really true. You don't think so? As time goes on, I don't.

I know more sort of relatively. Stable. I don't know if I'd say stable, but the idea that we're all sad fucks. I don't know if I'd say stable, but the idea that we're all sad fucks. I don't know if that's entirely true. And the sort of Jewish model of neurotic depressos, I think that sort of passed us by. I mean, it might have been true at some other point in time. Okay. The only truly, the only person that just straight up cracks me up, that to all appearances

is an incredibly normal, well-adjusted person, is Will Ferrell. Absolutely. I agree with you 100%. I can't think of anyone. You wait for it to happen. You wait for what? For him to do it. I interviewed him once, and he was just being normal.

And I just sat there. I was sort of like, when's he going to do it? When's he going to make you laugh? Because he can do it effortlessly on purpose. He had two loving—apparently, I've never read his bio. No, he's a well-adjusted guy. He was in a fraternity at USC, two loving parents. Just a funny motherfucker.

Yeah, but no one else. I mean, there are degrees of darkness to the rest of them, but I mean, they're all, I think they're all, I don't mean to be cliched about it, but they're all troubled to some degree. Isn't everybody? It's like when people hang that on comics, I'm like, there's plenty of plumbers with drug problems. Plenty of cops with drug problems. True. Plenty of depressed.

Maybe we're all just. Yeah. I mean, well-adjusted people are far and few, but I understand. It just didn't feel like it was going to be a healthy road for me. I'll just speak to myself. I'm sorry that I pushed back on that. But it's only because I used to believe that. I'm sorry that I pushed back on that.

Please. But it's only because I used to believe that. And the more people I talk to, especially people that come out of sketch, are a little more well-adjusted than these sort of lone wolf stand-up comics. See, I would have been a lone wolf. I don't like sketch. I don't like improv. Yeah. You would have been a guy.

Improv irritates me. But were you like a loner as a kid? Yeah, I think so. Just awkward? Yeah. Yeah, awkward, loner. a kid? Yeah, I think so. Just awkward? Yeah. Yeah. Awkward, loner. I mean, people probably didn't remember.

I just wanted to fly. I wanted to be left alone. You have siblings? Fly under the radar and not be noticed. Yeah, I have a sister. Oh, okay. Yeah. Is she funny?

No. I hope it's Debbie. I love you. I think you would agree. I don't think of you as... Funny. She has a dark... She appreciates my sense of humor. Sure.

Because you come from the same stuff. Yeah, yeah. And what did your mom do? She was also a school psychologist. Wow. Yeah. Yeah. So, but that seems like a proactive liberal upbringing, no?

I mean, was there like care given around growing up with a couple of psychologists? Not really. Yeah. All right. You know, it was the 70s. Okay. I don't know. I wouldn't say, I wouldn't describe them that way.

Yeah. Okay. I love them. Yeah. Good. I'm happy because they made me. Yeah. I find that like as I get older older, I had problems with my parents.

And I talk about them still on stage. And they're both still alive. But at some point, you have to see what's good about you and see if it came from them and give them a little credit. Oh, I give them all the credit. Wow. All the credit. Yeah. I definitely don't give them all the credit. Wow. All the credit. Yeah. I definitely don't give them all the credit. I think I have to give myself some credit for somehow pulling together a sense of self.

Oh, yeah, yeah. No, I give myself. Well, they give you the raw material. I mean, they give you the ingredients. Yeah, and then they just cut you loose and then kick you around a little bit. Yeah. Yeah. So when you go to Michigan, when you try stand-up, you decide that's not your thing.

So where do the chops come from? I mean, what do you get a degree in? History, of course. Yeah. Yeah, I was a history major. I mean, I left Michigan. I really found myself in Madison, which was my next stop after that. For graduate school?

Well, not graduate school for me. Graduate school for my then girlfriend. Okay. Well, not graduate school for me. Yeah. Graduate school for my then girlfriend. Okay. I was, my girlfriend after college, who I met at Michigan, went to University of Wisconsin.

And you followed her. Yeah. She was getting a degree in medieval English. Oh, good. And I had my history degree and- Sat around reading Chaucer together? Yeah. Yeah. Kind of.

Female medieval mystics. Yeah, yeah, kind of. Female medieval mystics. Yeah, and the Green Knight. A lot of Green Knight. So, yeah, we went, off I went to Madison with her because I didn't really have anything better to do. Yeah. And then Madison turned out to be the perfect place for me. Good town.

I love it. loved madison and it was like perfect because it was a mid it was a medium-sized city yeah so it was big enough that there was i didn't know what i wanted to do with my life i was sort of a typical you know liberal arts major with creative leanings and i wanted to maybe write i'm not sure what I want to do. But Madison was a town where I was able to try things. So, like I said, it's a big enough town where there is a newspaper. There is a public radio station. It's definitely hip, man. You know, and it's progressive and it's happening. It was the greatest.

So I would walk into. So I just wanted to try stuff so i was in a city of 200 000 people where i could walk into the uh wisconsin state journal which is the big state paper and say hey i'm you know i'm new in town can i write an article for you uh you can't do that at the new york times yeah um and you know to to their credit they let me try you know doing so i just started doing little entertainment pieces for the State Journal. And I was volunteering for Michael Feldman's, do you know Michael Feldman? He's an NPR guy.

He does a show out of Madison. I was just doing stuff and trying things at 21 years old. And one of the things I tried was The Onion, which was there at the time. With Todd? Was Todd in control? Todd was there at the time um with todd was todd in yeah todd was there not in control yeah um uh but he was yeah he was he was todd already at that point todd hansen yeah um so i went uh and i just started writing for the onion as uh as a hobby yeah it's more for fun right i didn't think it was going to lead anywhere. Yeah.

I did that kind of trajectory of hobby to job to career. Yeah. You start with something that just turns you on. But it sort of hit all your buttons, right? Brought back the comedy bug. Yeah, it was incredible because I got to make jokes and follow E.B. White's elements of style and ap format and i had like i really took pleasure in exercising both of those chops because i really it was you know it

was like being at a newspaper it was more like being in it was probably more like being in a newspaper just as you know from day to day there than it was being at a, you know, at a... In a comedy writing room. In the writing room at Letterman or something. Right. Because we were, you know, deciding what was going to be the lead story and assigning, you know, assigning stories.

Yeah. And I was choosing photos. You know, the experience was... A newspaper experience. Yeah, I was an editor. Yeah. I was approving things and, you know, rewriting. but you were just writing at first how'd you become editor um i became editor because well the old editor left what was his name uh the editor right before me was ben carlin he's the

one who went to the daily show right he was yeah he was the producer of the daily show for for many years the original editor of the onion no it was it was the original. I mean, it's hard to, there was really the original guy was Scott Dickers. Right. That's who most people, but he wasn't like the editor in chief. I remember that when I talked to Todd, he had just kind of wandered in somehow. Todd was washing dishes and he worked for medical answering service. It wasn't really like The Lampoon. Right.

He worked for a medical answering service. It wasn't really like the Lampoon. Right. Where you had all these ambitious East Coast prep school people who came in with the intention of parlaying it into a career in comedy. It really was kind of more like a band. It was like a bunch of fuck-ups. So that's kind of why it was easy for me to rise through the ranks there. I didn't come in with.

Because you took it seriously? I didn't come in with... Because you took it seriously? I didn't come in with... Disciplined? Yeah, I was sort of... Well, it was a bunch of... And again, I'm generalizing, but it was all Midwestern, you know, Christian... Yeah. Midwestern Christian slacker college. You know, it was the 90s.

Yeah. It was like guys who... Right, sure. Listened to Pavement and... Hanging around, smoking weed. hanging around smoking weed yeah smoking weed drinking wearing flannel debating uh you know the merits of uh bex odelay whatever they were doing yeah and um but you know not people who are particularly ambitious or great with deadlines but funny oh i mean the most talented thrillingly funny i felt like i had somehow stumbled upon the seven most brilliant. No, I thought, oh, my God, this is like how it felt when, you know, Michael O'Donohue and the Lamb Moon and that whole crew or the, you know, Second City crew. I really felt like I was in the company of geniuses, which I really still to this day think I was. But I was the only, I was sort of an East Coast Jew amongst Midwestern Christian slackers.

And it was just sort of like, you want to be editor? Sure. Nobody else. There wasn't a power struggle. It was too much work. There was no power. When Ben left and there was a vacuum at the top, there was no, it was like, everyone just kind of shrugged and looked to me and was like, I was, I think I was assistant editor at the time, making $75 a week.

A little better with deadlines than the other people. Right. That made me the obvious choice. You want to do it? That was it. Yeah. I don't want to do it. You do it.

Yeah. So, you know, off we went and it was the same, you know, there's obviously been turnover since then. But when I was there, it was the same. Like I said, it was like a band. It was the same. To me, there was like that was the classic lineup. Is there any original members there? Still there today?

No, the only one left is the guy who is now, who's been the editor-in-chief for many years, Chad Knackers, who, when I was there, was the assistant photo editor. Oh, yeah? Yeah, he worked under Mike Lowe in the photo department. But you were there when it moved, right? I mean, you were there when it blew up. Yeah, yeah. How did that happen when it moved to New York? Because I remember when that happened, because it was sort of like they were everywhere all over the place.

It seemed like around that post-9-11 episode was... Yeah, that was our first New York. That was the first issue of The Onion to be published in New York. We moved in early 2001. I mean, really for no other reason than we were all kind of tired of getting lunch at Radical Rye on State Street. Yeah. Just really after, me personally, after eight years. Small town.

In Madison. Yeah. I was like getting sick of the sandwiches. Yeah. Did everyone move? Yeah. yeah just really after me personally after eight years small town in Madison yeah I was like getting sick of the sandwiches yeah did everyone move yeah the whole and it was like

it was like Muppets take Manhattan we all got got in our bus and yeah off we go to the big city yeah

it was just a big adventure we were all you know we all you know we all hunkered down in our

park slope at the time you know yeah if you didn't have a lot of money you went to park slope right so we all got got our brook i actually was in manhattan but every i think everyone else was in um brooklyn yeah and we lived you know we like when we first got there we were

on the cover of the style section of the new york times and we were sort of the toast of the town a little bit yeah you took over yeah there was all those onion boxes everywhere yeah yeah who bankrolled you um the guy who owned it his name was david schaefer he was like a hedge fund oh okay like a big lebowski did he buy he always owned it or he bought it he bought it he bought it a while no that wasn't why we moved yeah as i um he bought it a few years before we moved okay and no we just wanted a change of scenery, really. And we wanted to get bigger. Yeah. I definitely had ambitions for the thing.

I wanted to be in every... And you're the editor at this point. And you moved to New York. Yeah, I was the editor from... I was officially... I think I was the editor... 96. I was the editor from 96 to 2003.

Did 9-11 happen before or after you got there? Before. Well, we got there in Januaryuary of 2001 okay so then 9-11 i believe occurred in september yes of 2001 that's right right um that was dry humor i got it um so uh we yeah so we were in town like setting up for a bunch of months i don't remember how long we figure we were like setting up for a bunch of months. I don't remember how long. I figure we were like settling in for six months, still putting out the publication. Yeah. And then it hit the streets. And then we were all ready to go with our first issue in New York, which was going to hit the streets in September.

No, it was going to be like the week before September 11th. Okay. And then September 11th occurred and we didn't publish for a week. Yeah. And then we all... It was weekly though, right? Yeah, it was a weekly publication.

I'm trying to remember that famous headline of the post 9-11. You know. Which... What were some of the stories? I mean, the kind of the little... It wasn't a headline, but there was a

holy fucking shit right it was like the um there was what was the lead well I mean so cause like

immediately it was like is anyone gonna be able to be funny ever again yeah yeah we were like approached for everything every time magazine

yeah Newsweek did a think piece on you know is irony it was is irony dead yeah yeah can we ever laugh again right right and of course we gave think piece on, you know, is irony, it was, is irony dead? Yeah, yeah. And can we ever laugh again? Right, right.

And of course we gave the quote of like, you know, of course we're going to laugh again and we need humor as a way. I thought it was fairly obvious that humor is a way of. Through. It's a way through. A way of coping. Yeah. Of processing terrible things and, you know, pain and.

Sure. All that. This was before The daily show yeah so i guess the idea of news funny jokes and reaction jokes in in regular reaction to the news was not like outside of monologue quite as obvious a thing as it is now yeah and and the daily show and and um you know letterman they all letterman and snL had shut down for longer than we did. Yeah. And we were sort of hailed as the first people back.

Longer than a week? I mean, you put it out like a week later? Yeah, it was exactly seven days later we put out our first issue. What was the reaction, you remember? I still have like a stack of, we were nervous, but we got a stack of incredibly, you know. Thank you. Really moving, beautiful.

Yeah. So this is the first, I mean, exactly what we'd hoped for, which is that this was, you know, the first time I've laughed. Yeah. It's that laughter that's, it's that cathartic laughter through tears, which is so beautiful. And it felt really really good were you paying attention to what the onion was doing during covid i have i have not since i left yeah i don't really look at the onion yeah because even to this day if i do it will i just still want to edit yeah i can't i look at it occasionally, and I'll be like, that headline is three words too long.

Yeah. It lacks the precision and economy of where it's, you know, there's a haiku. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, no, I think I'm still too close to it to look at it. But I love it and proud of it. Yeah. So, you left in 2002? I left 2003.

And why? Just because after nine years of repetitive motion, mental repetitive motion, like seeing the world in headline form. Right. It was just starting to make me crazy. Yeah. I wanted to kind of use a different part of my brain. And what did you start with? Well, before I left The Onion, I was, maybe a year before I left The Onion,

I was starting to get a little itchy to try something new. And we were approached to write an Onion movie by David Zucker of airplane fame. He grew up in Wisconsin, and I think he sort of saw us, he took a liking to us as, I guess, I can only presume the heirs to some sort of Wisconsin comedy tradition. Sure. So he approached us about doing an Onion movie, which didn't go well, and it went straight to video and all that.

But it was my first time writing a screenplay. Todd and I were the co, you know, the whole staff wrote it. Were you in touch with him? I haven't spoken to him in a while, no. I wonder how he's doing. All right, but that seemed like a long time, the release of the movie. Because if it's correct, the movie came out much later than when you finished it. Yeah, it knocked around for two or three years.

It kind of languished in development hell and eventually trickled out to cut out bins. It was not a smash hit. So what were you doing? So I just loved, well, I wrote, I just loved, it was the first time I ever wrote in final draft. Okay, right. Just in screenplay format. And it was just exciting. Yeah.

It felt like an exciting new thing to try. And I just started writing screenplays. While I was still at The Onion, I started dabbling with screenplays. What was your first one? In my spare time. I wrote, I don't remember. I sort of blocked out the specifics of i wrote they were all comedies yeah i'll say that i mean um they were sort of broad comedies i did that classic thing

where you write what you think is going to sell what seems to be in vogue right i also just assumed because i was a comedy writer i needed to write comed. So this was during the sort of heyday of like Ben Stiller, Will Ferrell, like old school. I think old school. Right, right, right. So you're trying to do that. So you do a few scripts. You got an agent. You're trying to sell them.

Yeah, I had an agent just through, I think I already had my agent because of The Onion. Yeah. And he was just kind of taking a chance on me as I moved into this new thing. So I wrote a series of comedy, like pure comedy. Yeah. And they were all just – they were probably the kinds of things that pass through the desk of low-level Hollywood script readers all day long, but didn't have a particular voice. A lot of jokes.

Yeah. Just an attempt to write old school. Sure. Which had some funny moments. Some great Will Ferrell moments. Yeah, yeah. No, nothing against that movie, but that's just not the right approach. No, no, no.

It's a vehicle. Yeah. Yeah. You don't want to... It's not the right no no it's not a you don't want to vehicle yeah yeah you don't want to it's not the right i was just discovering the powers of self-expression and writing what you you know getting through that mistake of writing what you think will sell right and what you think so i'm sort of writing down and i and i also made that mistake of i think a lot of screenwriters when they start out think um the dumber and the worse the thing you're aiming for the easier it is to do right um one of the first like really

eye-opening breakthrough moments i had with screen screenwriting was i've only once been invited to a punch-up session right which is where they they just call you know once the script has already been written they have a bunch of right they bring in a bunch of writers to just add jokes. For what movie? It was for a date movie, which was one of those. Do you remember those, like, spoof, like, scary movies? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Was it a Wayans Brothers thing?

No, it wasn't. It was these two. I forgot their names. Was it Made? Yeah, yeah, a date movie. A date movie. Oh, yeah, it was a hit. Okay.

Like, Miramax. I think it was Miramax would crank them out. They were like cheap to make and they made a lot of money. So you were working for Miramax kind of? They hired you? No, my agent was just like, you want to get $1,000 to go to the Beverly Hills? Yeah. It was the Four Seasons.

They flew you out? No, I happened to be out here. That's the only reason I was invited was I happened to be out here and my agent was like, hey, while you're in town, there's a punch-up session for a date movie at the four seasons how'd that blow your mind um what to get no i mean like what what oh it blew my mind it blew my mind because i thought it would be a bunch of people sitting around very cynically like like everyone around the table would would know that what they were doing was shit yeah instead what i found was they were all really into and i was i was coming at it as like mr onion comedy stop yeah you know like oh uh yeah you know i know what i'm

doing yeah meta comedy and anti-comedy michael o'donohue yeah and here this is the crassest lowest form of comedy what i learned was that they all were really really i was the only one at the table i think i was probably kind of a standoffish dick yeah um i'm sure nobody probably even noticed me but i i was like oh they love this like they really love this and um and for me that was kind of really eye-opening like oh you have to even if no matter what you're doing i just thought like when you write shitty sure or i forget you're just bitter and you're just doing it for money and you hate it yeah like their hate their hate writing they hate joking and they weren't they loved it they all were really really psyched and i was like okay so i have to it the lesson was right like just even when you're doing that kind of comedy

it's always done with with love yeah and sincerity so So I just, almost as an experiment, I stopped. I said, okay, let me stop writing these comedies that have, you know, somewhere in there, there's like cynicism in my, there's like, it's not written with love or sincerity. Right. So why do it? Certainly if it's not working. Yeah. You're not enjoying it. Sure.

So I wrote, so I just took a look. I walked over to my DVD collection in my apartment. This was the heyday of DVDs. Yeah. You know, and it's my DVD collection is, you know, Midnight Cowboy and Fat City and Saturday Night Fever and Taxi Driver and Mean Streets. Yeah. You know, it's like Scorsese and Hal Ashby. I'm like a 70s.

Yeah, 70s anti-hero. Yeah. Hope of Greenwich Village. That's my shit. That's just what I love. Jolly. Yes. They took my thumbs.

So that's what turns me on. So I was like, let me try writing. I know this is not commercial. This is not going to sell for a million dollars. But let's just try writing one of those movies. And what I wrote was what's turned out to be Big Fan, which was. Patton Oswalt as the sports fan. It's great.

Thank you. So it didn't. What that did was it was the first thing I wrote that was. and it was the first, it was the best screenplay I wrote. It was the most. You think it was the best screenplay you wrote looking back? At that time it was like worlds. It was not even, it was an actual screenplay with, it was original. Yeah, the turn at the end was great.

Thank you. I mean, like, cause I didn't know it. Yeah. So like, and I watched it, you know you know and you know he's a peer of mine so i didn't want him to be good but he was great and rapaport i love but he's amazing but uh he is but the turn at the end was great but why that subject matter what was it that um compelled you because i grew up listening to so it's about a um um for the 99% of your audience who don't know up listening to, so it's about a, for the 99% of your audience who don't know the movie, it's about this obsessive New York Giants fan

who is beaten up by his favorite player. Yeah. And the crisis of conscience that creates in him. Yeah. It's like a dark character study. Sure.

Like those movies you looked up to. Like those movies I love. So what I did was I kind of took the movies I loved and they, and I fused it with this other thing that I love, which is sports. Yeah. And I'd never seen a movie about a sports fan before.

And I grew up, um, I guess if it's personal at all, it's because I grew up listening to sports radio. Yeah. Um, WFAN in New York. Yeah. When I was growing up on Long Island, that was the first sports radio station. And it started in, I think, probably 1987. Uh-huh.

So I was in high school. And that was the first. And you loved sports. I loved sports. Yeah. And there was, you have to, this was a time before sports radio existed. So the idea of like hearing people rant about sports. Yeah.

Callers. Callers. Callers ranting about sports. It didn't exist prior to WFAN. Right, right. And it didn't exist on TV. Right. So I'm lying there. I would listen to it every night in my suburban Long Island bedroom with the lights out.

I would be tired every day going to school because I would turn on my radio. I'd go to bed at 11 o'clock or whatever it was i'd turn on the bfan and i would just stay up for hours listening to these voices um aggravated voices and they were people who were kind of reminded me of ratso rizzo sure and uh tra, Travis. And Travis Bickle. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Johnny, you know, Johnny Boy.

Fully obsessed. They were, they were like psychopaths, but they were also, they also all shared with those movies they were like outer borough New York weirdos.

Uh-huh. Which, I don't know if that's a genre, but like, you know, Tony Manero. Yeah. Ratso Rizzo.

Yeah. Uh, Johnny Boy. Yeah. Uh, Pope Pope of Grunge they're all like weird I love

I love movies about you know I love any I love outsider characters I identify with outsiders but I particularly there's something about people just staring across

you know the Brooklyn Bridge yeah yeah looking at the Manhattan skyline that's so close yet completely out of their reach right it just hits me it just hits me like nothing else.

So for me, listening to these callers, you know, Joey from Kew Gardens and Ray, and it's very intimate. You get to know them. Yeah, they call all the time. Yeah, and you form these relationships with them. And for a Long Island suburban Jew suburban jew like you don't ever meet people from maspeth queens so like just hearing these people from so close to where i grew up but like completely from a different universe you know these working class blue collar guys with

these crazy you know each with these accents like yeah you know because the new york accents right yeah it's there's nothing like it. There's something comforting and terrifying about it. I wanted to know what – I was fascinated by them. Yeah. I just wanted to write movies about them. Yeah. I didn't think of it in those terms at the time, but yeah.

And I did. So that's what I wound up doing, was writing a movie about one of those guys. It's because Patton's not essentially that guy. But, you know, in terms of like – I didn't get the feeling like he was some one of those guys. It's because Patton's not essentially that guy, but in terms of like, I didn't get the feeling like he was some sort of Queens character. No, he doesn't. Well, you know, we played with a Queens accent and it didn't work.

Let him do him. Yeah, I just thought, okay, let's just... Sure. Better no accent than a bad accent. And then Rappaport, he'll do it two-fold. So he'll do it twofold. So he'll cover for it. Yeah, except he's doing a New York accent.

When I re-watched that and beat myself up, it's not a Philly accent he's doing. That's just the perfectionist in me. That's right. It's good. It was good. No complaints. Yeah. So I wrote that, and then that kind of kicked around.

That became my calling card for getting jobs. How did that happen? So it went around to directors? It went around to actors? Well, you write it, you submit it to your agents, and then it just floats around. Yeah. It floats around Hollywood, and people read it, and they like it, and it gets you meetings, and it gets me low- level rewrite work at first it got my it was a foot in the door yeah to like my first professional

writing gigs which were kind of low level rewrite jobs um but then at the same time that script is also making the rounds to directors so it eventually reached Darren Aronofsky who was he in New York he was in New York yeah he was in New York at the time and he he really loved it and he was interested in he was interested in directing it yeah um and he was going to um the problem we kept running into was um was the NFL issue because it was it's it's they're real teams yeah I didn't want to do the, most sports movies, purely then, you know, like any given Sunday,

it's the Miami Sharks, you know, versus the Baltimore Dragons or whatever. And they put a billion dollars into that movie. It, it, for me as a sports fan, it ruins the movie.

I can't get past that. It's the Miami Sharks and not the Miami Dolphins. Cause it's so much a part of the culture of, so I was like, I'm not doing this. It's like weird, isn't it? Because I remember North Dallas 40, but like, I was like, I'm not doing this. That's weird, isn't it? Because I remember North Dallas 40, but I don't think they ever mentioned the team, did they?

North Dallas 40 was supposed, I mean, it was supposed to be the Cowboys. The Cowboys, of course. But they're called North, why would you have a team called North Dallas? It was a fake team. Well, I get it. I guess because I'm not a huge sports fan, it was so clearly the Cowboys. Yeah. But for me, that's enough.

That wrecks the movie. Especially if it's a movie about like where you're really embedded in the culture. I mean, the New York Giants are part of New York culture. Sure, sure. So the New York Wizards, to me, I wouldn't do it. That was like a deal breaker. So I was like, I'd rather not make this movie than make a movie about the New York Wizards. Yeah. So eventually, you know, enough people passed on it that everybody passed on it because they all have, like Fox Searchlight wanted to make it with Darren, but Fox has a billion dollar contract with the NFL that they don't want to jeopardize.

Yeah, over your little movie. For some stupid fucking, you know, million dollar shirt site movie. So it kicked around to a bunch of directors. I took meetings, but it was apparent that it was never going to get made. And I just reached a point where I didn't even have any real dreams of becoming a director, but I just wanted the movie to exist.

I was like, I don't want all the effort I put into this movie. And I felt like at the time it was the best thing I'd written and I just wanted it to exist. And it didn't happen then. It happened later.

Yeah, no, it kicked around for five, six years and then I was just like, fuck it, I'm doing it myself. But that was after you met Aronofsky

who, how did that happen? Yeah, years later. He approached me because I think he just got a hold of that script somehow, however one gets a hold of a script

and he said I wanted to, I met with him about it that's how i came to write the wrestler was years later so we didn't do big fan together but he wanted to do a movie set in the world of wrestling yeah and i guess um he's like huh you know um gritty gritty character yeah gritty character study set in the world of the sort of underbelly of sports. Sure. That's what he wanted to do. He wanted to do that.

So he's like, oh, what about that guy who wrote that big fan script? Were you a wrestling fan? Yeah. Not obsessive, but I'm a child of the 80s. I would go to Nassau Coliseum and see hulk hogan and sure and the rest of the gang who was your favorite wrestler um i liked coco beware because yeah he had a parrot jake the snake everybody sure um jimmy superfly snooker yeah i just loved i don't know that's it i didn't have a i wouldn't say i was i wasn't such a fan that i had like posters on my walls right i just i loved

the spectacle of it it's really just fun to do the you know you know it's all kind of a put on but it's fun to scream yeah yeah i mean so but when you're conceiving that character who were you thinking about um definitely uh i would say probably uh terry funk who's it was pieces it was kind of a um it was kind of a composite of a few guys. You know, there's the masochism of like a Terry Funk. And there was also Mankind. Who else was... Jake the Snake, because he was this really tragic... I mean, a lot of them are really tragic figures.

But Jake the Snake was this... Got addicted to crack. Yeah. I would go to these events did you watch the the matt movie barry's movie before beyond the map yeah yeah yeah that was a huge influence on it yeah um that's definitely kind of the direct connection direct connection but i would and then i started to go to these events which were signing events no they were wrestling wrestling shows all around the new york i mean they have them all over the country but like i would go it's the secret world i love secret

worlds i love subcultures yeah um that's usually what turns me on yeah in deciding what to write about is like a world not a story right so um i didn't even really know it was going on right under my nose but like on any given weekend in the New York area, there's a Knights of Columbus Hall in Queens and a church basement in Passaic, New Jersey. And they would have these wrestling cards, and the cards would always be a mix of guys on their way up who want to be wrestlers but probably don't have the chops and never will make it. And then the guys on the way down. And they would usually, to get a crowd to show up, they would hire one of these. Beat up guys.

One of these old beat up guys that like really just needed a $300 payday. So I would see like, you know, George the Animal Steel. I saw Tito Santana. Yeah. All these guys who I saw, know 15 years earlier i saw at nassau coliseum you know on the card with hulk hogan and now they're playing you know the pesaic vfw ball um for probably 200 bucks and they can't and and and they can't most of them they can't move so they would a lot of times they would put them it's kind of how steven seagal movies are made now you you run into his fist you know what i mean he doesn't move much yeah um so you know

tito santana with his taped up knees would be standing in the middle of the ring like a you know like a horse they're about to put down yeah and guys would run into him and just bounce you know so it's just it's heartbreaking it's so so heartbreaking and there's so much you know it's pay there's pathos and it's just fucked up and it's funny to me it's you know i don't mean to say that like no callously but there's well yeah because the put on has has is still in place but it's completely broken down. Yeah. There's a dark, strange perversity to the whole thing that just appeals to the comedy. I'm attracted to things that are- Because they're volunteering to do it, whether it's desperation or not.

That's what they're holding on to. And they're happy to, and on some level, and while it's also pathetic, there's a real beauty And while it's also pathetic, there's a real beauty and dignity to it because they're getting the same thrill. Because you can see, it's a funny thing, the cheers of a crowd, whether it's Madison Square Garden or whether it's the Passaic VFW Hall, and whether it's 20,000 or 75 you know people drunk assholes yeah when you get a crowd excited it's that it's that same rush yeah so you could see why these guys are still aside from needing the money there's there's some element of it that they're still addicted to yeah it still feeds it makes them feel good. It feeds their ego and it makes them, it gives, it makes them feel like they're making people happy.

Well, I mean, the script was kind of amazing, you know, from, in terms of your, your empathy and your understanding of that guy. I have tremendous empathy for those guys. You can feel it in the restaurant. And I think Aronofsky handled it very well. He did incredible. Yeah. I mean, they're, and they mean, they're artists and they sacrificed.

I mean, that's a big theme of Aronofsky's, obviously, and I could see why it appealed to him. You know, these are guys who, you know, sacrifice their bodies for their art. Yeah. I mean, there's a Christ, you know. Yeah. I always slip in a little Christ. Sure. A little Jesus.

Well, these are guys who are dying for our pleasure you know yeah how engaged in the process were you when he started directing then I was

mostly just like a happy visitor to set and then it was that was my first movie that got made that got made

before Big Fan right so Big Fan was still kind of languishing but it did very well the rest were yeah yeah

no it did great it won the Venice it was thrilling well, the rest were. Yeah, yeah, no, it did great. It won the Venice, it was thrilling. It won the Venice Film Festival. Big time. And, you know, Mickey, Mickey got his,

Mickey and Marissa both got Academy Award nominations. Yeah. No, it was a thrill ride. It was like a dream first. That's amazing. Yeah. And that opened the door

for you to be able to direct Big Fan? It didn't even open the door. I just did it. Oh, yeah. I did it because I paid for it with my own money. Right, okay. And that opened the door for you to be able to direct Big Fan? It didn't even open the door. I just did it. Oh, yeah. I did it because I paid for it with my own money. Right.

Okay. So you just chose. You just said, I'm going to fuck you. I was just getting my wife's permission. Sure. To spend the money. Or blessing. Yeah.

Yeah. Like, hey, we have. I took the money. I took the money I made selling my onion shares. I had owned a 5% stake in the onion, and I sold it. And I took that money, and I made big fan with it. And how was that received? Pretty well?

Yeah. I mean, it got into, you know, it was in competition at Sundance. I mean, it's had a very slow burn. It's still, it got distributed. Sure. I mean, it's had a very slow burn. It's still, it got distributed. Sure. I mean, I saw it. It was fine. I made my money back.

Okay. Some people have heard of it, and what more could I, you know? It's interesting. What more could I ask for? That's right. But, I mean, you wrote The Founder, too, which I like that movie a lot. I like that script. But it seems like heading towards Welcome to Chippendales, through the wrestler, big fan, the founder, Pam and Tommy, there's a world that you seem to occupy in the American landscape

that seems to be fascinating to you. There's a similarity between those things. I hope so. Some people think that when they talk about what I – I like American pop. I like things that when they talk about what I, not that. I like American pop. I like things that are really poppy that deal with, I know it sounds kind of vague, but I like things that are about America. But it's interesting that these things, right, like wrestling, sports fanaticism, fast food.

Yeah, I like junk, I like pop culture. Porn and hair metal. Yeah, I love that shit. I love fun, I love fun, trashy. Dark fun. Yeah, I like things that are about music or sports. Well, how'd the founder come to be? Or, you know, hair metal. Because that's sort of the outlier.

Well, that's like, you know, McDonald's is a major, major part of America. How'd you get that project? Was that something you chose? No, I was approached to write that. Oh, okay. And I read Ray Kroc's autobiography. That kind of scratched my Citizen Kane, big, controversial, polarizing. I like unlikable protagonists, which is why I've eventually kind of migrated to television, where it's less of an issue.

Yeah, right. Because you have many episodes, too. I like things that are, I mean, fun. Yeah. That appear to be where the entertainment is on the top. Yeah. And then there's vegetables. There's substance underneath it.

Substance and darkness and weirdness. You can choose to just enjoy it for just the fun of it and the entertainment value, but there's also like themes. Well, you can, but like even with the Welcome to Chippendales, like you can choose that,

but you know, you're going to have to reckon with those characters at some point. Yeah, definitely. And they're dark. And the same with pam and tommy yeah i like i like dark yeah unlikable people that you know that we understand i don't i don't that whole thing about likability your character has to be likable i think is i don't know what

that is it's becoming an outdated notion thank god um but for a long time it was really like gospel and certainly in film do you think it's something historic with you or just as an aesthetic decision you think it's some you're you're kind of like uh reliving your relationship with your father over and over well i definitely i mean everything i write is about him or reckoning with him and it's all about masculinity and what it means to be a man which is why i mean you know i've i've i don't remember what movie it was but my sister went to one of my premieres and she's like that was dad i was like what i don't think about it right right you shouldn't you shouldn't ever think i try not to ever think about what something's about i can't tell you what anything's about, but it's all my dad.

Yeah. Yeah. Reckoning. Yeah. Just the things, you know, the fucked up messages our parents give us and the things they don't teach us. I got my I got most of my like parenting from

my two heroes are are Bruce Springsteen and Howard Stern yeah like those are my guys those are your dads those are my dads

yeah I mean my dad was my dad yeah you know but those are my guys you know the dark and the light for me Howard and Bruce were you know Bruce I really listened to his songs

when I played yeah I sound like such a fucking middle-aged man, but. Well, you definitely sound like you're from Long Island. Yeah. Yeah. But I, you know, I just listened to his songs and they kind of taught me how to. Yeah.

How to be a man and how to live the right way. And I wanted to be a good person. So did he. Yeah. And he struggled. I didn't even know. I thought he was just kind of preaching to i didn't know he was struggling with all that book is great oh when i interviewed him it was

crazy i mean it that book is great his uh yeah because he wouldn't he didn't assume it how would you know that i it seems so obvious now in retrospect that's true i'm like how could i not think this guy was tortured and hard on himself. Right, and depressed. Yeah, I know. Because he's got that thing he does, like, hey, everybody, I'm here. Yeah, no, he's become like Mount Rushmore, just almost not a person, but a- Right.

And you listen to Howard all your life? Yeah, I listen to Howard every day. Yeah. Obsessively. Growing up. I listen to Howard every day. Yeah. Obsessively.

Growing up. Yeah, growing up. Yeah. And then really, I mean, it's just only gotten deeper and deeper. Have you been on? No, I wouldn't qualify. I mean, hopefully, maybe this will be a stepping stone to that. But he, I mean, he interviews fucking.

I know. Well, you do too. I have no idea why I'm on this show. But thank you, by the way. I have a lot of I'm on this show, but thank you, by the way. I have a lot of range. Howard's like a celebrity guy. I did Howard once, but he's been talking about me lately. Oh, he has?

Yeah. I'm trying to think. About my role in Too Leslie. He said something. Oh, right, right, right. Yeah, yeah. He loves Too Leslie, his friend. Yeah. And then he talked about my Gallagher episode.

I think yesterday he brought it up. Oh, shit. I haven't listened to yesterday's yet. I'm catching I'm behind this week. But OK, so that so you are resolving these issues. But now the the Chippendale saying like, you know, I've known Camille a long time and he's really acting the fuck out of this thing. He's doing a great job. Thank you. It was great. Have you seen any of it? I watched four. Four of them. I'm four in. Okay. Yeah. Is it good? Yeah, it's great. Okay. Because I can give you reasons why I think it's great. I mean, you found, this is all you, right?

You came up with this idea for this? Yes and no. I mean, I tried to write a version of, I wrote a Chippendales, it's not worth going into the long version of this, but I wrote a Chippendales movie years ago that I tried to get. About him? About Steve, what's his name? Yeah, Steve Banerjee, who I tried to get Kumail for. I was originally hired to write it for a Bollywood actor named Amir Khan.

Yeah. And that never got made. Is Steve still alive? No. Okay. As you'll, well. Okay, yeah, yeah. Watch the rest. um is steve still alive no okay as you'll well okay yeah i'm sorry i don't i mean i had no idea that dorothy stratton and paul was yeah paul snyder were star 80 it's like um it happened they were involved it's like the extended marvel universe yeah they it is the uh yeah paul snyder

of the star 80 eric roberts played um who they who killed killed Dorothy Stratton and then himself. They were in the scene in the early days of Chippendales. And she was the one who came up with the Cuffs in College idea. And that's all documented. Yeah, yeah, it's real. It's crazy, man, that time. It's a crazy true story. It's unbelievable.

But to ride that line that you're writing that you'd like to ride where, you know, this is like, it's dark stuff, man. Hollywood has always got that dark stuff. But that, you know, that little chapter of those two is horrendous. Yeah. And somehow or another in light, you know, the way it's played in the film, because you actually get attached to those two characters in the first two episodes. But you know what's going to happen to them anyways. But, you know, it's how it's balanced through Kumail's journey where it doesn't you know kind of you know take the pull the plug on the thing no no it's it's uh there are many dark chapters along the way and they were kind of the first

yeah you could see them as sort of a a bet just an an omen and he's not a particularly likable guy. Steve? Yeah. No, but he's interesting and he's got all the stuff I would want. Yeah, it's all very uplifting because you have that music of the time in the 80s and then you have these women who are great and these dancers who are, it's all very, and I like all the fucking. I like that everyone's- You have fucking, you have cocaine. Everyone's fucking everyone. Yeah, we've seen that before, but- Fongs, mullets. Sure. Yeah, it's before. But it's got.

But but there's something I mean, you're really letting them fuck in this movie and this miniseries, which is good. Do I? Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. There was some serious fucking male gay sex, which you don't see that much. You know, and there's some serious, you know, just in the dressing room, the green. I like it. There's just people fucking casually fucking with other people in the room.

Yeah. Which they did that. Sure. Yeah. But but I'm not saying that he's an unlikable guy. You know, the immigrant story, you know, in in terms of their expectations of themselves and what they're up against, you know, generationally, I think is is handled very well. against, you know, generationally, I think is handled very well. And, you know, his sense of what the American dream is and the fact that, you know, he and Paul Snyder shared this obsession with Hugh Hefner.

Yes. Was kind of synchronistic and interesting. Steve's two, Steve's twin heroes were Hugh Hefner and Walt Disney. To him, he grew up in India and he came to America in the late 60s. And to him, Hugh Hefner and Walt Disney were the epitome of American success. Yeah. We didn't really delve into the Disney side of it, partially for reasons of lawyers. Sure.

But Hugh was, to him, was sort of, you know, by Hugh I mean like the hue of the 60s playboy club with the yeah swanky classic hue yeah you know with the hi-fi stereo and well it would also be like yeah yeah um so that was his that was his dream was you know his assimilate his assimilation dream was to um you know i think when he first came to america yeah he came up with chippendales seven or eight years at almost 10 years into his time in america is when he came up with chippendales and those years are kind of where he went took took the detour because when he first came to america i think if you would ask steve when he first landed in america what is your ultimate fantasy of american success he'd say i own i would own a dozen gas stations right you know um and but he had this 10-year period of soaking up american pop culture right you know and

watching he was one of these guys that learned to speak english watching tv right now so he's watching he's sitting there alone in his little Marina Del Rey apartment watching The Love Boat and the ads for, you know, Asti Spumanti, whatever. And it changed him and it changed his definition of success from just being rich to being something more classy. Yeah. It's a little like. It's a little. Or that idea of classy. Like Trump, you know, doesn't just want to be rich.

He wants to hang out. He wants to be invited to the good parties. Yeah. And hang out with Tom Brady. You know, like Steve definitely wanted to be in the in crowd. Right. And the in crowd is white. And he's not white.

And he'll never be, you know. Yeah. So he came here, I think, with this feeling like in America, because in India they have this very strict class system. Yep. So I think when he came here, he thought, well, in America, it's, you know, you can be anything in America. And he started to find that he was, he could not escape his skin, his skin color. Yeah. And then he started, one of the fascinating things about him that we deal with in later episodes is he starts discriminating.

He starts, he becomes racist himself. I saw that. And he doesn't let black people, oh, yeah, that was in your episode. What was it? I saw the Otis leaving it. He creates these VIP cards. The real Steve created VIP cards to keep as a means of keeping out undesirables, a.k.a. non-whites. Uh-huh.

Huh. So he's fascinating. Well, I'm going to have to see how that plays out. But in terms of, it seems to encapsulate all the things that you're interested in. And Kumail's doing such a fucking great job. He's incredible. Yeah. I love working with stand-up comedians.

You know, I worked with Patton and I'm working with Kumail. They have such stuff to tap into. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm sure he's got things within that character to tap into. Oh, hell, yeah. As he will discuss got things within that character to tap into. Oh, hell yeah. As he will discuss at length on his press tour this week. I mean, things that, I mean, Kumail is, you know, I've heard him talk about it. I mean, Kumail definitely relates to aspects of the character.

Yeah. You know, he came to America. I think Kumail came here when he was like, he came here for college. He went to Grinnell in Iowa. Yeah. So he's this kid from Karachi. Yeah. Pakistan. Yeah. college he went to grinnell yeah in iowa yeah so he's this kid from karachi yeah pakistan yeah dropped in the middle of iowa yeah on this you know bucolic little yeah campus with kids you know

yeah it's all like that story of people who come here to do this thing and you i mean and you seem to be again pretty fascinated with this particular version of the american dream with uh which version is it well you know this like you know trash american dream with uh which version is it well you know this like you know trashy pop culture version i just think it's fun i don't know i love their hat anything i write has to be my favorite shit is you know tragic i like tragic tragedy and comedy absolutely you know i started um i started the the onion was comedy tinged with tragedy sure and now i'm kind of trending toward tragedy tinged with comedy yeah maybe but it's all the same it's just a question of ratio yeah but it's all tragedy and comedy which to me is what life is so for me you know my favorite

shit is just i sound like a total you know fan 70s fanboy yeah cliche but i just love that raging bull yeah that's best um i think yeah bogey knights goodfellas stuff i just love you know dark things that are yeah well you get funny that you definitely you were able i think this guy was a good guy to run all that stuff through yeah yeah that's usually what i Yeah. That's kind of my selection process for a job is like, can I go really dark with this character and can I have a lot of fun with this character? So it's an eight episode miniseries. Yeah. Chippendales is a, yeah, it's a limited series, eight episodes on Hulu. Yeah.

Well, now I need to know what happens. I'll watch them. You could either. I'm going to watch them. Or just look on Wikipedia. No, I don't want to do that. You could get. What, the whole real story?

No, the true story, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But how long were you kind of fascinated with that guy? Since I heard, I mean, I didn't know anything about the. Because when I saw it, I'm like, that's an interesting angle. Why hasn't anyone else done this? I mean, because I'd forgotten about chippendales but it was huge yeah it was huge and it's it seems like one of those true stories that like why didn't they make a movie about this 15 years ago and it's basically because they were trying to i was trying to or else i didn't think that a lead who was Indian. That was the other thing is the world came around to, when I first, I mean, this was only 10 years ago when I was trying to get this thing made.

That was a real, what's now an asset, you know, diverse storytelling. That was a real problem when I was trying to make the movie first time around. No kidding. Like, who the hell wants to see a movie about yeah you know um an indian guy it's just not enough of an audience for that and now every i mean the the everybody's kind of falling over each other to find yeah stories sure of you know that broaden representation yes inclusive so inclusive stories. So we are, I think, a beneficiary of that, certainly. Absolutely. And then you've got the middle-aged Juliette Lewis,

Juliette Lewis-ing in the best way. She's the greatest. The best. It's a great cast. Yeah, Juliette Lewis, Annalee Ashford. I don't know if you know Annalee Ashford. I recognize her. I don't know what from, but she's doing-

She was in Impeachment. She was Paula Jones in Impeachment. She's an amazing, she's mostly a Broadway she's a wife yeah she plays Kumail's wife and she's Paul Snyder was good because I think you had to sort of somehow rein him in from too much Eric Roberts yeah yeah it's hard to kind of escape the shadow of right it kind of is and then um Murray Bartlett from White Lotus is uh plays kind of, he's... Oh, is he British? He's Australian. Australian, that's right. Yeah.

Yeah, he's like doing that Nick... The Nick DeNoia guy. He plays the... The choreographer and producer. Yeah, who's the... Still got that guy.

...antagonist. But I think everybody... So, you know, he plays a guy who's like clearly on Coca-Cola very well. Murray? Murray has...

Yeah, he's got good Coke energy. Yeah. I think he's a pretty clean liver. I don't know. No, I know. But like, you know, because that character was starting to grate on me. But then he realized, like, that's fucking blow and anger. Blow and anger is a good, yeah.

And, you know, sort of nebulous sexuality. Yeah. Yeah. That produces a certain twitchiness. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's great at that. So I loved them all. It was a great experience.

Well, good job, man. Yeah, yeah. Nice talking to you. Is it over? Kind of. How long was that? Hour 10. Whoa.

Flew by. Good. That was fun. Thank you. This is really special for me. I appreciate it. It feels like I've listened to this show for so long, and I feel like I made it. Well, I'm glad to talk to you man you did

you do good work thank you that was a good talk i enjoyed that welcome to chippendales premieres tomorrow november 22nd on hulu with new episodes tuesdays so uh okay hang out a second will you So it's Tuesdays. So, okay, hang out a second, will you? Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category.

And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth

at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. My archive recommendation today, I'm going with episode 837 with Kareem Abdul-Jabbar.

Why that one specifically? Because in addition to talking with Kareem, I also had a return talk with the therapist Phil Stutz. My full talk with Phil was from episode 454 and that's available only for WTF plus subscribers. But the one from episode 837 is free in all podcast feeds. And if you're planning to watch the new documentary on Netflix called Stutz, you should get yourself up to speed on him because he's definitely a character. These books for me, you know, I read them, I get a little bit out of them and then like I don't finish them and then I feel like I get, you know, I read halfway through it and I've got enough.

I think, you know what I mean? How much of this do I need? I get the idea and I move on. Yeah, and you have your own TV show now, right? I do. So what else could you possibly need? Well, you know, it's funny that you say that, Doc, because what I learned is that years ago I always thought, well, if money doesn't make you happy, I'd like to figure that. I'd like to find that out firsthand.

And now that I earn a pretty good living, it's definitely changed some fears and you know, and some insecurities that put those to rest. But the fundamental stuff, it doesn't change that much. No, in fact, that's actually the premise of what we do, in other words. And we have some credibility

because we treat all these people that are very successful as stars or whatever. And there's what we call a realm of illusion, which is somebody tells himself if i only get this my own show if i only get that a certain female he wants to marry whatever it is that then life will become easy yeah and what obviously that never happens never never no in all your experience no one ever came in and said hey hey, you know what? I'm done. I got what I wanted. Thank you.

No, no one's ever said that. If they do, if it was true, I would try to talk them out of it. It's bad cash flow for us. So we don't really want it anyway. No, but seriously, that's why a lot of guys will become famous. They'll blow up suddenly. Then they get into drugs and alcohol. Sometimes they even kill themselves.

It's like I did my share. I did what I was supposed to do, which is become famous, become very successful. And life still has the same problems. What the fuck? Right. I'm being chipped. Sometimes more problems. Yeah, sometimes.

Or certainly problems you didn't have before. Yeah, like what to do with all that money and then how to manage all the shit you bought with it. Yeah, that's really overwhelming. so go listen to that for free right now episode 837 where you can also hear my talk with kareem abdul-jabbar if you want the full phil stutz episode plus ad-free access to every single episode of wtf sign up for WTF plus by going to the link in the episode description or go to WTF pod.com and click on WTF plus my tour dates are winding down people only three more left this year my shows at the Orange Peel in Asheville North Carolina are sold out still some tickets for the show in Nashville Tennessee I'm at the James K Polk Center on Saturday December 3rd and my HBO

taping is at Town Hall in new york city on thursday december 8th there are still tickets for the second show go to wtfpod.com slash tour for all dates and ticket info here's some guitar from back in the day guitar solo Thank you.