WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1391 - Tommy Tiernan

Episode Date: December 12, 2022

Comedian Tommy Tiernan knows a fellow traveler when he sees one. Ever since he saw Marc perform, he recognized a kinship, which is something Marc notices himself when he’s in Tommy’s home country of Ireland. Tommy and Marc talk about the shared outlook of Irish and Jewish comedians, as well as why they both feel like they’re hooked on doing standup at this point in their lives, why they’re both no good at having fun, and why Bob Dylan remains such an inspiration to Tommy. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucking ears what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf welcome to it. I'm back home, man. I've been back home a day or two. I got back home on Saturday, and I recorded my HBO special on Thursday. On Friday, I just hung around New York, ate a giant meat sandwich, tried to relax, tried to feel like I'd accomplished accomplished something great as opposed to feel like oh it's over i'm done it was okay i tried to i tried to sort of ease out of it

but now i'm back home and i'm exhausted today on the show i talked to tommy tiernan irish comic actor writer you may know him as uh as Jerry in the show Dairy Girls. He co-hosts the Tommy Hector and Loretta podcast. He's also the host of the Tommy Tiernan show on RTE TV in Ireland. He's a guy I've seen around and said hi to for years. And I finally got a chance to sit down and talk to him on that last trip to Ireland. So let me tell you how it all unfolded. I can walk you through it. I mean, I woke up pretty normal. I know I've been paying a lot

of lip service to freaking out or not taking care of myself in order to comfort myself, which is probably true. But ultimately, on the day of the taping when i was going to do two shows for the hbo taping i was sort of calm and i think all of that comes from working the fuck out of this stuff for a year and a half i mean i definitely was confident in the material i could have done it in my sleep in a way i mean i just the just, the jokes were dug in. They were dug into my neural pathways. They were dug into my sense of timing. They were dug into, uh, they were just ready to go, but I wasn't really bored with them, which was good. So the day of the show, I got up and actually ended up, it was weird because I thought my manager texted me to have coffee, uh, David Martin.

Uh, and I was like, sure, let's have coffee. And it turned out it was Dave Manheim, Dopey Dave from the Dopey podcast. And he texted me, I'm here. And I'm like, why? Oh, that David. But it was actually the perfect David to hang out with before the show. You know, because Manheim's a recovery guy. We went and got some breakfast.

We talked a real shit for a while. Got my clear got me to purge some demons uh by talking to another sober uh drug addict and it was a perfect way to start the day of the special um we did not record it i'm much to his chagrin probably we did not record that because he's always trying to get me to be on his show but this was just a couple of guys hanging out and he was grateful that i didn't make him go to cats's because he works there but he's trying to you know spend his life there he doesn't want to spend his life at cats's or hook me up with meat i didn't need meat the day of the morning of the show i did not need to to fill up on meat so about 12 45 a car takes me almost to the theater here's the thing about taking cars

in New York. Take the fucking train. Just take the train no matter what, even if you're dressed for the opera, take the fucking train. Jesus, man. Guy got me about a block away, said this ain't moving. I'm like, all right, I'll get out. I'll get out with my fancy pants. They weren't that fancy. So I walked to the theater and kind of took it in. Took in the, they got the lighting up, the backdrop up,

everything looking great. Then I had to do a bunch of still photographs, do a little hair and makeup. I was trying on the clothes. I worked with a stylist this time. I've never done that before. And I still have mixed feelings about it.

But I'm told that it's going to look great is it it's a little awkward for me because i tend to wear my own shit so i try the outfits on i get the hair you know i get hair and makeup i choose an outfit then we do a bunch of still photographs and all this is going on while there is russ and daughter's food in the backstage area that's what we had brought in. About five or six kinds of herring, sable, smoked sable, smoked salmon, a couple kinds of cream cheese, whitefish salad, baked salmon salad, all kinds of bagels, pickles, full Ashkenaz.

We're going full Ashkenaz for pre-show, which is fine. Nothing like salted everything to maybe put on some water weight right before you get on stage. Now, generally in my past, I've been shredding inside, just kind of losing my mind in anticipation to do the special, you know, to get on stage, just panic and worry and just wondering if anything will work. None of that happened. I was so prepared in my mind to do this thing that I was just sort of excited and kind of trying to eat as much smoked fish as possible because I didn't want any of it to go bad. These were the two places I was putting my energy. I was trying to pace myself so I could eat as much smoked

fish as possible, but also get out there and focus on the set at hand. We used the music that I composed with the fellas. I don't have a name for it, but it came out pretty good. Came out really good. So the plan was to, you know, Brendan McDonald did some of the offstage announcements. I did an offstage announcement. And then we just brought the lights down popped up the backdrop when you're sitting in the audience before the show it's just a bunch of white screens up

there and then the lights come down boom backdrop pops up my big riff comes on bang then i walk out like 30 seconds later and do it so the first show was hot as fuck, not hot temperature wise. The audience was lit, almost too lit. They were very excited. All the jokes were, you know, popping, everything was good, but I fucked up the opening joke. And I felt like I was a little too amped, a little too, uh, excited, caffeinated, full of smoke fish. So the subtext of everything that's going on is I'm digesting the history of the Jewish people in my stomach. Well, at least Ashkenaz.

I had fucking Ashkenaz food buzz going on. But the show went great, and we tried to light this thing a certain way, this bit I was doing, and that completely got all fucked up, which is fine and then i finished the show i went back out and i shot that thing again with the same audience it was funny because they weren't told to wait you know in case we need to shoot something else so

so i closed the show everyone's getting up putting their coats on and then steven my director's like go back out there go go back there go back out there tell them to hang out so i gotta go back out there tell them to hang out and then we I told the story I just made it loose and we reshot something that was fine and then it was sort of getting ready fucking filling back up again for the second show which

was different because I was looser in a way I ate a bunch of babka in between shows so now we're going with the dessert Ashkenaz and rugla. So I'm kind of cranked on the fatty cookies and cake. But I get out there and it's a totally different show, man. The second show is totally different in that the audience was not as lit up. I had to earn it.

They were a great audience, but they weren't all jacked. You know, they were, it was, I would say it was a more honest show in a way because they, you know, I could tell. I've been doing this a long time. They weren't going to laugh unless I made them laugh. The first show, I'm not sure.

I think the first show they were just so excited. I probably could have done anything, but this show was like, I had to work for it. And have done anything but this show was like i had to work for it and it was good it was good that i had to work for it because it made the jokes tighter and better and you know it made them it made them work more the jokes but i found room to improvise second show and a few things happened that i believe we'll use in some of the material. I did stuff that night of the HBO special, and this happens something, this is something I do generally at all my specials,

is that stuff happened that never happened before and probably never will again that night. I know where they are. I know which things they are. Maybe after the show runs, I'll tell you. But I improvised some stuff. I made some choices around the emotional drive of a couple of jokes but a couple of beats just deliver themselves out of the ether from the muse from the great unknown which is how i generate material it's given to

me by forces i don't really understand in a moment and that happened like two times second show and one of them really brought a lot of the Lynn stuff and the grief stuff together. There was just a funny beat that wasn't there before. And it was delivered to me, perhaps by Lynn. I don't know. But it makes everything very present and very alive. And that second show was longer, but it gives us a lot to work with. So all in all, it went great and I feel good

about it. And Friday, I just hung out with Debra Winger and I'm not name dropping. I love Debra Winger, but we were kind of, she used to come around on my Instagram lives. And then I met her, she came to the screening. I told you that. But then we went out and had some cats's deli and just talked for like three hours it was great it was a pleasure what no mics it was fun the whole thing was great and now i just have to you know start eating like a person get off the fucking cigars start hiking up the mountain and i don't know if i'm going to take it easy i'm i put for spots at the comedy store. So here we go. I've actually got some ideas I want to work out. Here I thought, like, I'm done.

It's over. And now I'm just going to go right back to it. But all that being said, if you came to either of the shows in New York, thank you for coming. It was a tremendous experience for me. I hope it was for you. For the rest of you, you'll see it at some point, hopefully earlier than later next year. And today you're going to hear me talking to Tommy Tiernan.

You can get the Tommy Hector and Loretta podcast wherever you listen to podcasts. The Dairy Girls is on wherever that's on. Kit loves it. She watches it all the time. She loves it. But this is me basically talking to Tommy Tiernan for the first time in Ireland. Ireland. It's winter and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs, mozzarella balls, and arancini balls?

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starting at just $19 per month. Visit Zensurance today to get a free quote. Zensurance, mind your business. But what I was saying about expectations and show business is, you know, after having so much resentment for so long. Yeah, but you're fluent in resentment. I know, I am. Aren't you? No, I'm fluent in hope.

Come on. Come on. Really? But are they the same when you're Irish? Hope and resentment. Really? But are they the same when you're Irish? Hope and resentment. Yeah, there you go.

Let's start philosophically. Do you know they have these radio stations, these Christian radio stations called Spirit and Endeavor? It would be good to have one, Resentment. Well, yeah. Resentment FM presents. Well, I think that part of what we do honestly is is that we are able to i mean you can't process bitterness specifically on stage i tried that i tried to be bitter on stage when i was younger i was prematurely bitter and my assumption was that everybody is a

little bitter and uh that may be true it may not be true but it's not entertaining well i found i used to find that very attractive mark you did yeah those um i love listening to stand up uh as opposed to watching it yeah so i'd always prefer a good cd right rather than a netflix thing sure so i remember all those you know um tickets still available yeah yeah yeah This had better work Not sold out Not sold out The trilogy Not sold out

Tickets still available And Oh what was the other one I can't remember Was it one with the hope The word hope in it I hope this is Oh yeah yeah

This has to be funny I think And But I thought they were all Fantastic Mark I didn't see it as Oh Final Engagement Final Engagement That was the one Yeah yeah That was the one Totally unprocessed material and uh i thought they were all fantastic mark i i didn't see it as a final engagement final engagement that was yeah yeah that was the one totally unprocessed material and in the middle

of my wife leaving me what that's great two hours to be a passenger on that trauma for you was entertaining yeah well but i think that's why i know it was a brilliant stand-up so i don't i don't i don't think that resentment, unprocessed resentment, it might have something to do with control. When you're totally in control of the product, it becomes less interesting. Right. So you don't listen to my podcast.

So when it's a little bit unprocessed, it's like a horseshoe yeah there's shape for the public to come in there's a space for the public to come in so that's why i found those that's a shape uh metaphor not uh you might get it around the pole you know you might yeah yeah and there'll be a clang when you don't. That's it. So that, I find that interesting, you know,

just that, it's probably about, in a sense, authenticity, you know, that you want to be listening to somebody who's not quite,

like for me, and I hope you don't mind me being fantastic, I'll take this opportunity to be judgmental and talk to you as a fellow traveler. Yeah, do it.

So say George Carlin's later stuff. Right. Which I found it was so together. It was so chiseled that there was almost there wasn't room for the audience. Whereas Lenny Bruce's kind of. He needed the audience. Yeah, but he was kind of like he was he was flushing stuff out of himself

right and some of that was messy and some of it was unformed and some of it was oohs and ahhs but it was more interesting but he was always

checking in to the audience I mean like even when Lenny was he was always sort of like dig you know dig dig you know he always

dig this yeah right right whereas Carlin later was just sort of like I don't give a fuck this is how I think fuck you take it which is just a bit it's a bit harder to Right, right. Whereas Carlin later was just sort of like, I don't give a fuck. This is how I think. Fuck you.

Take it. Which is just a bit, it's a bit harder to spend time with. But intellectually, philosophically, I found it satisfying. And I dismissed him. It wasn't until I watched the Judd Apatow documentary recently that I really started to reassess some of that older Carlin. Sure, yeah.

Because I found a distance with him. Because unlike you or I, that was a guy that wrote down everything. Yeah. And that everything was worked out like a fucking math problem. Like, you know, when I watch you work, or when I know my process, I don't know your particular process,

but you're going to talk. And you're going to see what happens. And over time time something will evolve eventually right but that's the way i do it too there's a tremendous risk in that but once you know that the beginning of it is funny then you're good i think you're probably more of than stuff i've seen i think you're probably more of a risk taker a certain type of risk taker than i am i think i remember you saying to me one time, you just load up and go, you know? And that whole idea of caffeinated angst

with verbal dexterity plus anger and resentment. I've gotten softer though. I've gotten softer. Have you? Yes, I've broken a bit. I'm a bit more open-hearted out of necessity. Because you can't hold on to it anymore. No, but you've paid a high price for that.

That place doesn't come easy. No. And you wouldn't choose it. No. You can say, well, this softening has benefits but you know right it's just like oh the loveliness of age just made me wiser and a little more it's like no i got you get beat up you get hurt you get heartbroken heartbroken then you you know you you get agree you know you're in grief but i think like you know i i feel like i've always been those things

but anger is a way you know to avoid those things and and also to to uh to express those things but you know the type of grief that i was in in the last few years is different because it's not you know it's not preemptive you're not not making it up. Real loss is real loss. You know, I don't think I acknowledged it as much, you know, when I got divorced or whatever, because you can still be angry. And you can still be angry when somebody dies that you love, but it doesn't go anywhere. And eventually you have to surrender to what life is, right? I don't know. I'm not going to challenge you on that, but I don't know.

What do you mean you don't know? This is why This is like I'm trying to understand Why I like And feel psychically And emotionally connected To this fucking country

And I'm a Jew And I need answers from you I used to do this line The Irish are like the Jews But not as focused Right Right Not as ambitious You know True the Irish are like the Jews, but not as focused. Right, right, right. Not as ambitious, you know.

True. I don't know, we're both people of the word. What about the sorrow, man? What about the sorrow? Yeah, well, where does drunkenness come into it? That's a treatment. Is it? Well, I wonder about, okay about okay so again speaking very broadly yeah

we are a people the irish who had uh our country were colonized we were starved and we had our language taken from us and that's it to to be communicating in another people's tongue has its advantages because you come with an Irish mind to the English language. So it's kind of like a, you become more creative with it. You know what I mean? You're naturally not operating from the same source as the English. actually not operating from the same source as the English. But we always had our own country in the sense that, you know, we weren't looking for a homeland.

We were here. I think the Jewish experience is radically different. It's, of course, there was the getting of the homeland after the Second World War, but there was also a survival thing in other societies that that's you know a need to adapt and find the the the places where we could thrive in the midst of and be protected yeah um and but the thing that the word is really interesting i'm very very drawn to the bible yeah and those stories and both testaments absolutely and i i you know i was when i was thinking about talking to you because

christian means something very different in america than it does here it's not good in america no it's a little bit heightened and very sure of itself it's half fascist too right yeah it is it's and it's a bit clean cut it doesn't seem to be not about service no acts no doesn't seem to embrace poverty the way jesus might have suggested not at all it's been turned around into an anti-poverty stance yeah you know which is uh how to transcend from poverty like you talked about in one of your bits you talked about joel austin and you know that seems to be the tone of spirituality and then politically it's just straight up fascism. Whereas over here I think it retains a bit more of its radical agenda and for me it's about being a pilgrim

as opposed to a president. It's a bit more but I'm very yeah both testaments i i um there it's an interesting map it's an interesting interior map as much as a an exterior story of a people yeah you know but i find the whole thing fascinating interior map yeah well in that that something happened with christ that was evolutionary that uh you know, of transcending, of making some kind of link between the human and the divine in an evolutionary way, not just in a philosophical way.

And were you brought up with it? Not at all. We had, I mean, I had such a radically strange upbringing that I'm only kind of learning to appreciate now. How so? Well, I was born in the mountains, in the wind and the rain,

on the cold northwest coast of Ireland. Is this the myth of Tiernan? The myth of Tiernan. Don't, I'm just... Try and tell it again in a sociological way? No, no, I like it. I love it.

You either want the poetry or you don't. I want the poetry. That's why I'm here. Can I take a shot occasionally? No, you can't. Just relax. Don't be interrupting.

Take the tablet and if it works well and good. Okay, so you're up there. So I'm up there. And that part of Ireland back then was, I mean, for American listeners, it's Appalachian. Oh, really? So what part is it?

It's Donegal. That's where I went with Lynn the last time I was here. Oh, yeah. So you've been there So it's kind of So if you can imagine That 50 years ago Wow And then

At the age of three We moved to Africa So there's no Explaining that to a child Was that for what reason? For my dad My dad My dad said

Because he thought Donegal was too remote So We went To Africa For work? For my dad's work What work was that? He worked with farmers Okay Donegal was too remote. So we went to Africa. For work? For my dad's work.

What work was that? He worked with farmers. Okay. And he gave up up there? Well, I mean, gave up what, like? I don't know, the farms weren't working out? Oh, no, no, he was working as a teacher. Okay.

He taught religion and science. Okay. Okay. So he's a man who's used to living with paradoxes. Wow, that is interesting. So it's an extreme, at the age of three, it's an imaginatively brutal thing to happen. Yeah. So you go from wind and rain and rocks and mountain. And also a very slow way of speaking.

How's it going there now, Tommy? This is the way we're going here. And there's all this kind of talking and it's all slow and easy and there's no hard corners or nothing. It's just beautiful. There's no, like there's no, you know, it's not an accent that would suit you. Yeah, right. I like it though. It's very soothing, even for four seconds.

Yeah. Then suddenly I'm in Africa. And, you know, I used to do a line about it, which is, it was like moving from a photograph to its negative. So all of a sudden you are an uninterrupted landscape it's heat it's red dust it's animals it's different noises so I lived there for three years and all my pals were African

and you remember it from three to six I have a sense of it I've looked at photos I don't remember but I'm committed to it through storytelling

yeah so I know that it happened but I'm committed to it through storytelling. Yeah. So I know that it happened. So I'll wander with words to try and understand it. So it is almost a memoryless jaunt. Yeah. But it happened. Right. So I can talk about it.

Sure. Imaginatively, because I don't have actual experiences to draw on. Sure. Three years of that. because I don't have actual experiences to draw on. Sure. Three years of that and then

as daft and sudden the move from Africa to Africa was then we went to London. So all of a sudden

it's cement big buildings the rain Yeah. And then to Ireland. Yeah. Back. And a few different towns in Ireland then.

But religion was never part of our house. Huh. Never. Do you have siblings? I have three younger siblings, yeah. No religion. They were dragging all of them or they had some of them along the way? My sister Anne, who's a novelist, was born in Africa.

And then my two, Niamh and Brian, were born in africa um and then my two neve and brian were born in ireland so i i think that that i mean what we do is i was gonna say it's beneath us is it though it's it's it's a kind of a very it's a strange thing we do Mark we talk but you know I've seen you talk about it and you know and you see it the same way I do I think kind of

like you know people I never set out to be an entertainer it seems like it was more of a calling you know I set out to I thought that stand up was some sort of hang on so we've moved from the mythology of Tommy Tiernan to the myth of Marc Maron.

Exactly. It was a calling. It's the way I look at it in retrospect because when I watched comedy when I was a kid, it made me laugh, but I thought they were geniuses.

I mean, to make people see things in a way that was palatable and manageable because it was funny, you could break down the biggest concepts into something understandable. It gave me relief. It gave me a point point of view who did you like when you were

well early on i just liked some of the the older you know uh the comics i used to watch on tv buddy hackett jackie vernon uh and i liked uh i think when i had records i had cheech and chong i had carlin records and the richard pryor records but i think that the the real birth for me was you know seeing when i was in high school i saw the richard pryor it's the first movie you know when it was a movie yeah and i remember going and just being you know just shattered by you know the power of it but when i just knowing for myself when i started doing comedy it i didn't set out to be an entertainer like i didn't say like you know i'm gonna go entertain people i need to figure shit out and i thought i had something to say so who gave you permission to do that in the sense of who did you see that was doing that and you thought okay i don't care

if nobody else has heard of this person the fact that i've seen their work has given me permission to try what i want to do. Well, oddly, I think it had to do with going to a comedy club. You know, maybe when I was in college, I went to, you know, I went to what in also in college. Who gave me permission? Like, who are you copying when you started? Jews, probably. I mean, I remember seeing Paul Reiser at the comic strip in New York

on the same night that Eddie Murphy dropped by. And I must have been in college, early in college. And I sat with Paul Reiser, and I brought this up to him when I talked to him. Because I said, how do you do it? How do you start doing comedy? And he said, I don't know. You just got to do it.

And that was the end of advice. So when I was in college, I wrote a bit with a guy guy and we auditioned for a thing me and him as a comedy team yeah and then we were told to do it at a club and we failed miserably and then we were told to do it in another club and it failed miserably again but but I think then I don't know if there was somebody it was not one of these things where I looked at comics and I thought that there's no way I don't even understand how people do that. I knew there were comedy clubs by the time I was coming up,

but you know, I started doing open mics and started, you know, I remember, um, I tried to work as an actor for a little while. And I also, I, I saw a guy called Phelan drew whose father father was Ronnie Drew, who was in the famous Irish

ballad group, the Dubliners. And I saw him in a show called Love and a Bottle by a guy called George Farquhar. And he played this kind of knee length, boot wearing rake who was seducing women and just kind of moving through society riding all around him and drinking and and i had no idea how that actor was doing what he was doing i had i just couldn't i couldn't forensically understand his performance and i've never had that feeling with the comic no matter what comic i go and see i can ah you're doing that yeah ah okay yeah so it's that thing of of what you can do yeah isn't it

and kind of going well i know i can do that huh so even the even the strangest most brilliant comic yeah i can go i can oh i can see sure so i was never intimidated by right and with the it's one of those things where it's you kind of i kind of feel as if it's slightly unfair that i can do this yeah because i it to me it's like walking yeah yeah i i wish it was you know yeah i understand but i think i was intimidated watching comics. I think I was less intimidated watching actors. And I think I'm still intimidated watching comics. I think there's still guys I watch and I'm like, fuck,

I'm never gonna, you know, be that easy. It's never going to be that easy for me. Well, well, I still find you attractive. Well,

I appreciate that. As a comic. Okay. You know what I mean? So I'm still very drawn to you as a, because I think, and I've always, the first one for me was Lenny Bruce

and I get into Lenny Bruce via, I was in school and I saw this guy walk past, it was 1985, with the cover, he was holding the vinyl version of Infidels by Bob Dylan. Yeah.

I went, oh, okay, who's that guy? Yeah. So I go into Dylan. Yeah. And from Dylan then, 12 months later, you end up hearing about Ginsburg and the Beats. Yeah.

And then you get into Howl. Yeah. And I saw the best minds of my generation destroyed by madness, angel-headed hipsters, you know, and you kind of go, Jesus, what is that? And then you kind of plow into that a bit more and all of a sudden this guy called lenny bruce right appears and you're going you i loved him before i'd even heard a word of course mouth right that's the way it's exactly the way you know and then i started

listening to live at carnegie hall oh that's the one. Lost wages. Tits and ass. Everybody's vulnerable, baby. Everybody's ass up for grabs. It's not that Lenny Bruce is a sick comedian. It's rather that he comments on the parts of society that are sick. It's from the intro. Is it Paul Krasner or somebody?

Anyway, so I didn't understand what lenny bruce was doing and i and i'm in a in the west coast of ireland but that's the most accessible record that one yeah i don't think so i think the earlier stuff is much more obvious kind of father flotsky's triumph with the big the bits and pieces but like when the berkeley concert's like a physics it's more difficult yeah yeah but i but i i think that the fact that they's more difficult yeah yeah but I but I think that the fact that they waited for it it's an endurance test

yeah yeah but it all connects if you listen to it over and over again but also I fell in I'm still in love with the architecture

of what Lenny Bruce did even though I don't fully get everything yeah architecture how does it so the drama of it that fantastic bit

he does comic at the Palladium. Oh yeah. And that's about four hours, well it's about 28 minutes long, but it's so perfect. The guy's bombing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And then he goes, fuck the Irish. Yeah, right. Yeah, that's right. So, I think I fell in love with, I think that's the thing that made me fall in love with stand-up.

Yeah. Is that it was possible to be dramatic it was possible to tell stories so he'd be the he'd be the one for me that

that I was excited and then when I started doing stand-up Where did you start? Here? I started in Galway What was the scene? There was no scene

there was a comedy club once a week Who was there? So the guys were passing through were all, there weren't any kind of North Americans. Rich Hall might've passed by every now and again. Do you remember Scott Capuro? Yeah.

Scott would have been through, Mike Wilmot would have been through every now and again. Mike. We would have, maybe Dom Herrera would have passed through. All guys who were just at a level of professionalism. But I knew I could do it. Yeah.

I knew I could do stand-up. And I knew, coming from a failed acting background. How much did you act, though, really? That I wasn't afraid of silence. Yeah. Oh, really? Yeah. So sometimes you get guys...

I remember seeing guys getting up on stage, and it was all fast stage and it was all fast and it was all there was no enjoyment of the actual theatrics of the situation well I think we all start that way

you know yeah I started the other way I emerged from the silence to the word you know

and loved it you go now I mean for most of your career you keep you move in that I'm physical physical for, you know, most of your career, you keep going, you move. And then I'm physical. Physical, but also you got a pace to you,

you got an energy to you. Sometimes, you know, but it's all, I'm still figuring it out. I'm still, and, you know, so now my thing, I used to breathe ridiculously before going on stage. What do you mean? Oh, you mean you freak out?

No, I would kind of, I would do 30 minutes of deep breathing and holding my breath. An exercise, this was an exercise? Yeah, and it was kind of an altered state. So it was like being slightly stoned. Hyperventilating. Yeah, yeah, all that. You know, and that worked for a while

you weren't drinking at the time no do you know the way first time you take cocaine on stage and you kind of go alright

this is obviously this is obviously my method now yeah this is the key it always made me a little too fast

but it works the first time and then you go everything works the first time yeah that then you go... Everything works the first time. Yeah. That's the name of your next album. Except sex, oddly. You'll nail it,

but it won't work. You know. I like that. That's a good title. And then, you know, the first time you're a little bit drunk on stage, it works. Oh, yeah. I used to like weed. That was an okay place to be because then you kind of entertain yourself. That's what I got.

Where are you with sex now, do you mind me asking? After watching some bit you did about having a hard time keeping it hard? Well, just that you brought it up that you mentioned. Where am I? Yeah. In general, i'm trying to uh it means a lot to me still sex and having it be good it means a lot to me still i i still i think i put yeah i'm 59 and i still think it you know it is right up there with probably

the most one of the most important things to me in terms of making life enjoyable you um the the mechanics of it can be stressful but the yeah but you just gotta the physicality of it is a marvel yeah the skin on skin is true the mechanics you just have to find someone with patience you just have to find someone with patience. You just have to find someone with patience. After a certain point, you reach a level of desperation when you're a certain age. And yeah, sure, it'll work with two people who want to make it work. And it's different because I'm married now.

How long have you been married? Since 2009. Was that 13 years? Okay. So the familiarity of that yeah never and i kind of i'm able to say it out loud because it's true uh it never becomes i never take it for granted and it never becomes boring i can't believe sometimes that this other human being wants to get naked with me. You know, I think that, you know, as you get older, it becomes harder to be with, you know, strangers or trying to be out there doing that. It's a little sad and a little exhausting. But I

think as I get older that, you know, and what i just told you which is you know if you know what you want you can be honest about it and then you know work it out you find out what the other person wants i think that evolves in a relationship is there is there a kind of there's a tension between what you want what you're capable of sometimes but you keep at it and you know and you it gets a little sweaty but you'll get there okay okay um a friend of mine said many years ago he said there comes a stage in your life when you move from the love adventure to the death adventure yeah i'm definitely there and he said the death adventure is actually more interesting well what is the uh the spectrum of that what what are the uh the signposts of the death adventure?

I mean, at some point you realize, you know, I think first intellectually that we're all on a death adventure, but then it becomes very practical and day to day, the death adventure. You know, when you go to the doctor or when you wake up and you feel a certain way and your concerns become different. Like I did it last night. I had heartburn last night and I'm like, am gonna fucking die in my sleep in ireland i guess there are worse ways to go you didn't write a note or anything no no that would be sad if you wake up this might be the night every day that's the note you leave on i don't know if it's gonna happen but i love everybody and whatever. But the...

What is the death adventure really? It's part of it taking yourself seriously and taking your soul seriously and saying, And I can sociologically, financially, creatively, I can try and make a name for myself or feel good about what I do or survive. But actually, is there something else going on? Is there something else I need to pay attention to? I don't know how long. Like, I met a friend of mine recently and he said he had a tremendous heart attack and was rescued from the edge and brought back and he said to me uh if I die now

I know that there are two or three people out there who would have benefited from the fact that I was alive. So he told me this story. It happened when he was 26 or 27, and he was working as a teacher in a small Irish town. A 16-year-old girl that he knew from his hometown arrived on his doorstep, pregnant. She'd been thrown out.

And disregarding the optics of what it looked like, 26-year-old guy and a 16-year-old pregnant girl, he said, move in with me. And she more or less stayed indoors in the house for the rest of the pregnancy.

Yeah. Went to give birth. He contacted the parents, had a big fight with them, persuaded them. They never wanted to see her again, persuaded them to come and meet the baby. Everything was all fine.

He says, I know that that girl, that 16 year old girl, who's now 45 year old mother, benefited from the fact that I was alive. So when I started thinking about that, girl, that 16-year-old girl who's now a 45-year-old mother, benefited from the fact that I was alive. So when I started thinking about that, Jesus, am I able to look back on my life and say the same thing? I can say that I entertained people.

I can say that I, you know, that I made people laugh or with the chat show that I do here, that it was kind of, you know, it meant something to Irish people, but I mean, does the same, where does my life fall on that kind of measuring scale? Yeah. So stuff like that,

I think comes up when you start thinking about death, you know, that the death adventure is, asks big questions of you. And this guy said to me that he thought the death adventure was more interesting well there's also the list of people you might want to apologize to you know uh you know how can i is there any way i can that great cohen line i know you can't forgive me but forgive me anyhow yeah that's you know well that was that's one of the genius things if there's any genius to to uh 12 step recovery it's that fourth step you know. Well, that's one of the genius things. If there's any genius to 12-step recovery, it's that fourth step.

You know, it's that list of, you know, the inventory of where you're at fault. So you can see exactly who you are on a character defect basis. And you can, you know, make that a men's list. Who do you owe this to? Who can you do this to where it won't damage yourself or others or put you in a problem? What's that list look like? And you get to do that. That's a good one.

Are you good at having fun? I'm getting better. That's part of my death experience, my death awareness, is that I know I have limited time. I don't know about fun, but what are the things? That's another great album title. I don't know about fun but what are the things that's another great album title but what i don't know about fun but i think joy might be possible um you know in in a genuine way and allowing myself to feel that i have a i have a very you know pretty strong defense mechanism against the vulnerability of happiness uh and and joy i

don't know why i i don't know why i i don't allow myself or it doesn't happen naturally to feel it i i'm i'm curious about fun and how and how to have fun i don't think i don't think i'm very good at it i have extremes so the extreme of being on stage you you know, and that gallop of laughter that is, you can hear the hooves. Are you still hooked on it? Oh, totally. Totally. If I could, I'd probably gig seven nights a week. I've been gigging more than I ever have, and I've never been more engaged with it and excited about it.

And I think it comes on the heels of, you know, not just the pandemic, but also, you know, the passing of somebody. And I think it is saving me to a certain degree. I've never enjoyed it as much as I do now. But it's been a long time since I've been, like, feeling, you know, a lot of people talk about that the addiction to getting the laugh like I I don't know you know I I've been sort of preoccupied with the with sort of like the craft of it and molding it and and and figuring out ways I can take off and improvise and stuff but I'm not like you know beat to beat I'm not hooked on that you know there's always a risk to it with me still and I imagine with you too

that like I don't know if the next thing's gonna work but I like getting in the groove yeah my approach

is slightly different now which is I have a show yeah you have a talk show I have I mean I have a talk show

but I also have like a stand up I have a set that you've been working on yeah so what I it's that thing then of okay how do I make this I have a talk show, but I also have a stand-up, I have a set. That you've been working on? Yeah. So, it's that thing then of, okay, how do I make this fresh every night? And how do you?

Well, I've hit on a few kind of things. And they're all sentences that people say to me. So, I'm very open to suggestion. And I'm very taken by. And something that somebody, like load up and go, that thing that I heard you say, that's been with me for years, you know. So I take sentences that I hear and they just,

they, I live with them for a long time. So a guy that I was touring with said to me one time, he said, prepare meticulously, but once you step onto the stage, abandon all preparation. For sure.

So that lives with me. That's a jazz thing. You know what I mean? And that just, I... It's an acting thing too. Is it? Well, I mean, that's the thing that people say that like, you know, you do all the work. that people say that like you know you do all the work and then you know when the time comes to to you know do it you do all the preparation you you lose the work you know you don't you don't

think of the work yeah that's a hard thing to do that's it we've been doing it all our lives so yeah and i i found when i was the past say four or five years of doing stand-up it was taking me so much longer to get a show together, and I wasn't as inventive on stage as I used to be. I used to go on. I would start a tour with a fairly shit show, and I would know within 10 days it would be flying. Yeah.

I just would have that. Well, you just have some ideas, some stories, some things that were interesting to you that you needed to work out. But in the past four or five years after six months i'd still feel as if the show was shit do you have less to work out are you more comfortable no jodorowsky it was i i turned a corner and again it's something you hear yeah words no relax this guy said relax as much as you possibly can. And I just started doing that. And all of a sudden,

I'm thinking of stuff on stage now. So to me, it was, so now I'm on that buzz, as opposed to the hyperventilating buzz got me through the first six months of the year. And now this, relax. Just walk out, relax. Yeah, so you're a little rusty or something.

No, not rusty. It's just that you're calm. You're in charge. Sure. You're thinking. Yeah. You're working stuff out while at the same time you know that in your arms

you have these wonderful stories you can drop in anytime you want. And you're also, you know, here anyways, you're, you know, people love you. Thousands of people come to see you and they'll, they'll, they, they have a tremendous amount of patience and excitement. They know you. Thousands of people come to see you. And they have a tremendous amount of patience and excitement. They know you.

So if you relax, they relax. And then you can all sort of organically move towards something. Yeah, you know, it's easier said than done. No, I get it. You want to show up with new shit. You want to be creative. You want to feel alive. But where are you at in terms of disposition? I mean you know the arc of you i mean how has your style changed

you think i try no more than what i was saying earlier on about um if you're fully in control of something it's not interesting so i don't know what the style is or i put just intensity try not to question it too much you're more relaxed i'm more relaxed but what that also does is bob dylan said this amazing thing he said never give a hundred percent yeah i'm all about that good for you and and that's and don't prepare that's good that's and then

that is I find that liberating because I would have been somebody who tried to eat the audience while I was on stage you know just try and

gather them and claw them and devour oh so you you heard this you heard this mid-career you heard that yeah

recently six months ago oh wow never give a hundred percent and devour. Oh, so you heard this mid-career. You heard that one. Yeah, recently. Six months ago. Oh, wow. Never give 100%. And that is just... So I've been watching some of his performances, and there are times when he's just... What are you doing?

Oh, yeah, you can't even understand him. He's just... He's like he's there in front of you, but he's actually... He's moonwalked off the stage, and he's in the van. But what I've found that, so I consciously try and do that as well. Yeah.

Consciously try and just pull back. And what I found is that in terms of an energized performance, then you get like taking ecstasy. When you, all of a sudden this rush of energy comes up and you have no option but to express it yeah so I find that that's

it's not just not giving 100% and the whole performance is lethargic it's it opens a door for other energies and Dylan is the same like he'd be

Dylan might play two or three songs where you're going okay it's a little little something and then all of a sudden he's in his full body and he's glinting, but each one makes the other possible. So I mean, so as a performer, I'll take advice from anybody. Um, and I'm inspired by

loads of different things. So, but I'm still intrigued by it. I'm inspired by loads of different things. But I'm still intrigued by it. I'm still... Oh, yeah. I still walk off stage every night going, oh, that was great, but I could push that bit or... So I still love it. Yeah. What I'm not in love with so much perhaps is the road.

Oh, yeah. It's hard for me internationally, but I tend to like it when I'm at home. If I can stay at a nice place and I'm only away for a few days at a time. This trip has been two and a half weeks too long for me at this point. I get a little squirrely, untethered. But in terms of what you're saying about performing,

yeah, I always try to make interesting choices with the freedom you have from being relaxed after a lifetime of doing this. That at some point you sort of have total liberty and total freedom to kind of try whatever you want. And just because you know in your mind that if something doesn't land, you've got plenty to, you're not gonna,

it's not, it's not gonna be the end of you. That's not my thing. My thing is that, is to give the audience, it's paradoxical. I wanna give the, I want the audience it's paradoxical I want to give I want the audience to be swept away

I want them to I want the show to whirl and lift and stop and drive and quiet and loud and

but it's about so it's not loud. But it's about, so it's not about allowing failure. It's about somehow accessing the engine, my engine that is, this all sounds highfalutin, that is in simpatico, is that the right word word it's in tandem with theirs sure um yeah so it's

not about it's not it's not so much about embracing failure it's about risk i don't know if right okay right i'm not maybe failure was the wrong word but you know that you know if you're in that no matter what you know risk you take that you know it's not going to undermine you that you know you you you're in a zone so like if if something if you're going somewhere and it doesn't go where you want to go you just go another place sure if yeah it's but it's that thing about about finding the zone sure but but going back to the the sort of like it seems like are we lonely mark are we lonely people uh yeah now this is an opportunity so so i've been a huge um you're always someone that i would listen to we're not necessarily going to spend a fierce amount of time together off stage but i recognize in you like i said you're on a fellow traveler yeah so this is

an opportunity yeah for me in a to talk to somebody in an honest way okay who i feel is somehow is it you're my cousin okay yeah. Yeah, I feel that, yeah. Yeah, you know what I mean? And I'm happy you look better. In Montreal, you look a little frazzled. Well, I'm trying to do the Larry David thing of being unashamedly bald. I think you look a lot better. When I saw you in Montreal, there was frizzes, there was no haircut.

And I'm like, oh my God, what's happening to Tommy? He looks like he's aged 40 years i haven't seen him in a couple it was like a danny devito cross at nick nolte look oh so you know what i'm talking about i was going for you but i was going i was i was embracing that i was going i'm not gonna hide my bald spot i'm not gonna you look great now it's not hiding anything but the hair is cut and yeah it's trimmed i was like oh my god right all right? I literally said, is he all right? Yeah. Are you? It gave me energy.

I was concerned. I'm like, it must have been hard. You have a full head of tremendous hair. You're starting to look like a character from Deadwood. You have a magnificent mustache, great sideburns, stubble. It's fine hair. And anger. I'm lucky, yes.

But I was literally asking people, like, what's gone on with him in the last couple it was just it was a decision it was a decision but like well what were you saying about loneliness just about I mean

you know the and I don't know you've interviewed so many comics and performers and all that type of stuff that thing of

if you have that moment of extreme communion yeah with other people guaranteed at night yeah it kind of gives you permission to be solitary during the day because you know you've got this mass in the evening are you good at solitary oh yeah yeah yeah what do you do with it though i mean I mean, like, for me, like, I'm really, especially when I travel, the world of my head and the world of the world are profoundly different places. And, you know, and I can react to what's going on in my head as if it's real. And sometimes it's being generated against my will. And, like, sometimes solitary time, I live to be in connection.

Like this. Like you and I talking like the podcast has become you know a big part of my social life and and sort of nurturing to me in terms of the type of conversations we have but if i wander alone eventually i feel invisible as a cloud yeah exactly it feels like that i'm just a vapor moving through the world but uh so like in part of the challenge, just that I've been doing with even in this two weeks, because this is the longest trip I've taken post pandemic.

It's just sort of like, dude, you're still tethered. You're of the world. Don't lose your fucking mind just because you're away for two weeks. Do you have enough gigs in the two weeks to keep you tethered not this time okay but but i have had a lot of conversations so yes i've had you know three there's going to be three stand-up shows in like five conversations okay so yeah it's been good and i love coming here i like coming to dublin yeah yeah i like the bread i like the

the feel of the air i like like the way the place looks. No, I don't drink. No, it's bad. I haven't drank in 23 years. No, really? Oh, okay. Well, you were sober for a while? For eight years,

and then my wife asked me to start drinking again. And have you handled it? Sometimes. I drink whiskey. I think it's too... Why were you sober? I was sober because I was a splash of a man. Does that make sense?

I was just splashing everywhere. It's a nice way to say something. Yeah. It's the Disney version. I imagine there were some violent waves during the splashing. Yeah, a couple of close calls in terms of drowning. There you go. So the splashing a lot of times was you flailing in the water.

I was just too... But you knew this when you were a young man, obviously, in order to stop. You knew this when you were a young man, obviously, in order to stop. No, I just, I think sometimes you need three warnings. Yeah. And I got my first warning. I kind of went, oh, okay. That's interesting.

I got the second warning. I went, yeah, yeah. And the third one, it was real easy. The third warning came. I went, yeah, yeah. And the third one, it was real easy. It was the third warning came. I went, okay, this is real easy. I'm stopping. What was it?

I can't tell you. No, I'll tell you one of them, which I've kind of almost turned into a, through the telling of the story, you don't have to accept responsibility for the seriousness of the situation. Sure. It becomes, Cute. A yeah that you work yeah so uh i was i started taking the particular day i started taking coke about two o'clock in the afternoon it was a long long

time ago for any bastard journalists out there listening i might want to turn it into a headline you started snorting some coke in the middle of the day. Yeah, about two or three o'clock in the afternoon. I know that day. Yeah. Then I got to the gig and I started drinking and taking the Coke. And then...

God, he must have had a nice amount of Coke. Yeah. Okay. And I wasn't sharing it. Yeah. One of those... If you're going to start at two and not want to go to the dealer,

by five, you got to have pretty well set up. Yeah. And then, so, and I don't want to glorify any of this because I have, you know, I've got six kids. Six? Yeah. And I don't want people to, all I'd say about drugs is I'm glad I'm not curious anymore.

Yeah. Well, now's the terrible time to do them because everything could be the last drug you do just because of what someone puts in it. that should be i mean when when we were doing drugs when i was doing drugs it was like you kind of knew you know it might not be all the drug that you think you're taking but whatever it wasn't wasn't going to kill you no you're robust enough but no but no one's robust enough to fight fentanyl and they're just sticking that in everything yeah so it's very powders and pills are a big risk yeah uh so yeah i'm not i'm not i'm i'm telling this story in a

kind of slightly light-hearted way but i um because i have the privilege of survival yes um you get to the gig uh get to the gig i start drinking and play around and then i take ecstasy and then i leave the club. Yeah. At two o'clock in the morning. Right. With a full bottle of vodka. Oh, yeah.

I go to a 24-hour pool hall where I play by myself. You know, more drugs, more drink. And I go to an early house. Yeah. What's that? An early house is, they're usually bars down by the docks. Yeah. Where the sailors all come in.

Perhaps you'll pick him out again. How long must he wait? This is going to be an interesting story. Sounds like a lot was done. So I got talking to this guy with one eye who used to work on the, it's like a thing from a Tom Waits anecdote. I got talking to this guy with one eye

who used to work on the railroad. And 11 o'clock in the morning I went in and that was the last of the cocaine. Yeah. Wow, that's a good amount.

I went back to my hotel and on the way I collapsed in the street and woke up in hospital. And I had all these wires sticking out of me. Yeah. I had a big cut on my head

from where I collapsed. I collapsed outside a hairdresser's and the women inside called an ambulance. And I woke up and I was still a bit out of it and the doctors were asking me questions and I couldn't really respond to anything. And I had another gig in the same club that night. So at six o'clock,

I just untethered myself from all the different things yeah and walked down and did my next show

yeah so that was the first warning I got that was the first one yeah that's a pretty dramatic one yeah

that's it and but then you know I don't really I haven't accepted it's a story do you know sometimes you tell

stories of course because you don't and then when somebody comes up to you and goes oh my god yeah I haven't accepted. It's a story. Do you know sometimes you tell stories? Of course. Because you don't. And then when somebody comes up to you and goes, oh my God. Yeah. That was horrible. And you're like, what?

Yeah, you don't. It's almost like maybe that thing you were saying earlier on where you use the storytelling as a defense mechanism of having to deal with it. Sure. Because you're in control of the experience when it's a story. That's true.

When somebody else comes at you and goes, can we dig into that a little bit and how did you feel? Yeah. I can't. Oh, fuck that. You know, experience when it's a story. When somebody else comes at you and goes, can we dig into that a little bit and how did you feel? I can't, oh, fuck that. Look, it's a story. That's interesting, though, that element of it. Because I've done material like that, and people are like, oh, my God, are you okay? I'm like, what are you talking about?

It's a story. Don't you realize I do this to avoid the feelings? Yeah, totally. Yeah. So I was eight years off drink and I started again. It was all fine, really. Stayed fine? Stayed fine.

I get too drunk sometimes, you know, but that's easily done with whiskey. But it's not life-ruining drunk. No, it's just what I realized about drink is that, you know, people say, oh, it's a depressant. Yeah. And I would go, what are you talking about? I feel wonderful. It's the next day that you feel depressed. Especially as you get older, right?

You know, you kind of go, why is my mood so low at 2 o'clock in the afternoon? Depleted. When there is no need for me to be this, for me to be beating this slowly. There is no need. And then you kind of go, hang on a minute. I was a little bit twizzled last night. I drink every day. And I drink whiskey every day.

Well, I mean, I guess the key is like when you have that moment in the afternoon, when you're feeling that and asking those questions, that you don't start drinking then. Oh, no, no, no. I always always i wait till everybody i love is in bed and just drink alone and then i drink alone a lot yeah but then you know i was so i was drinking alone in my hotel room last night i was drinking whiskey and i said i kind of is this weird you know people say we should never drink alone and i met this man one time who lived on his own in a cottage on the side of a hill. Yeah.

And he says, I drink a lot, but I never drink on my own in the house. And then I remembered a photograph I saw of Bob Dylan drinking whiskey on his own. I said, well, that gives me permission. If he does it,

it seems like you used Dylan as a point of reference quite a bit. Yeah, he'd be a star in the sky that I'd navigate by. Yeah. I am a, I'm a minor, a kind of, I'm not a star. I'm a kind of, I'm a local poet. poet and sometimes local poets can be silenced when they get intimidated by the nobel laureate so i have to be careful with say someone with artists who are so much better than i am i have to i have to be really careful that i don't, because they're so profoundly brilliant. Yeah.

Like who? Well, I mean. I like the local poet thing, and I like that you understand your place in the world that you occupy. Yeah. So, for example, if I read too much about Dylan,

or I just, I end up paralyzed by the fact that I'm so jealous that I'm not him. I just went to, they have a Bob Dylan center now in Tulsa. Yeah. I went to the opening. Oh no, don't go to it.

Oh really? Yeah, but the weird thing is, is like, you know, I saw the sort of, all the different versions of Tangled Up in Blue, the notebooks and notebooks. And my thought was like, I write in notebooks.

I mean, I know I'm not going to be doing it yeah a less interesting uh museum but but i do write no there's a song called dignity that he filled he filled 59 pages uh and it ends up it's a four minute song sure and you just be you just you know you end up comparing yourselves to these, I mean, he's a country and you're a village and you just go, was there even any reason in my trying to do what I do? So I need to be careful,

maybe careful. Yeah, Dylan would be the main one that I'm kind of very wary of, of becoming too enamored with and you remember things he said she'd never let other people get your kicks for you you know i mean it's okay that's that's the thing okay stop listening to me is what he's saying yeah you're not me i'm not even he's got good boundaries yeah exactly exactly so but also intimidation though

like you know you've been getting in trouble for for saying things before cancel culture yeah i got in trouble for saying things but i never got into trouble with the audience i was saying it to uh-huh so that makes it okay that that legitimizes it is 100 i'm in a room i say something if i say something to you and you laugh it's automatically legitimate if somebody hears what we've been talking about and takes exception to it, that's none of their business.

It is none of their business. We were talking in the room and we made each other laugh. That's all we were trying to do. If I'm talking in a room of 400 people and this, I say something shocking.

Yeah. But they laugh. Yeah. You're off the hook. 100%. Even if two people are crying? Now you're complicating the narrative. Well, it's really about the two people crying. That's a difference that in my in my

memory that's not what happened in my memory they were all laughing oh okay yeah i get it if two people are crying then then the two people should come up and say we took obsession to that yeah they will say what no i'm i i i am often i'm more upset by stuff I say than anybody else. When you get away with it? No, because I'm, it's a position of power, being on stage. It's also a position of extreme irresponsibility. And that's the delight of it. Right.

That's the delight of it. Right. Is to come out and to be feckless and to be the outsider and say whatever comes into your head and for people to know that you're joking. Sure. But if one person in the room gets upset at what I say, I feel awful.

Sometimes that one person is just me and I feel awful sometimes that one person is just me and i feel awful yeah so it's i it's not a thing of uh being a kind of a bulletproof blaster at all uh but it is a thing of going if hang on if it worked in the room that's the only place it was supposed to work you can't i used to say it's like sometimes you might say something to your partner during sex yeah that's not appropriate at the breakfast table well yeah none of it is okay so stand up is the same to me that it worked in the moment leave it and move on given that Ireland in and of itself has become more progressive than than America in a lot of ways uh politically and otherwise like is there do you temper yourself

no at all do you change your disposition about the voices you do about the approach you know you can't you have to be uh giddy you once you start but you're not doubling down you're just being what you are yeah i'm not i'm not after anything i'm just going out and seeing what happens and i trust everything because i i trust my intention and my intention is to i know you can you can have more than one intention but i trust myself on stage absolutely and i and i know that if i stop if I start censoring myself on stage, it's over. You're no longer energized and you're no longer unpredictable to watch. You're no longer thrilling.

Because the instinct that can say, that can lead you to say something shocking is also the instinct that makes you reach for the sky in terms of saying something holy. No, yes. There's nothing better than saying something profound, shocking, and new. Even reaching for a moment. Yes.

That is so other. That is so. Yeah. Transgression. No, not transgression no transcendence yes now you can be you can transgress a few minutes later but it's just to follow this follow the impulse sure but it's it's actually transcendence through transgression a lot of times when we're talking about taking the the risk of saying the thing that you want to say even when you're

trusting yourself but you we're talking about controversy we're talking about saying things no we're not no no no i'm saying that you can say something that people can't believe you said that's it and then 10 minutes later that's silence and people are going what's happening what the fuck is happening and you know in your heart because you got a good heart, you didn't hurt anybody. It's exciting and it's holy and it's... So, you know, I... It's unfair sometimes, you know, to me. What is? It's unfair sometimes for journalists to...

It doesn't seem to happen as much as... There was a kind of a fever of it. A lot of people, you know... There was a fever of it. I of people you know um there was a fever of i think it's i think it's past i think people in the room i think if people in the room get offended it's stand-up is theoretically democratic so they're entitled to say that's not funny and then you deal with it there and then right or they can leave or they can leave, but I really, that would, I really do,

I remember doing material before many, many years ago that it was a character that was racist and sexist and everything and would go through a list of his grievances and through the telling of the story you realized that at the end of it the character was on his own in a room hoping and praying that the people that he said that he hated would actually come and visit him

but it was a kind of a it was a kind of a, it was a very subtle revelation and it was, I didn't do the character in a different voice. I didn't introduce the character. I just launched into this trade. Yeah. I hate

and I just fill in the gap. Right. And I remember once a person walked out of the show and I remember going, okay, I'm not doing doing that anymore i'm not that it's not working it's not clear enough to everybody what i'm doing it's clear to me but it's not clear to them so i'm dropping it so that was a a a sort of craft issue it was also a hurt tissue that you

didn't want to contextualize it you'd rather drop it you didn't want to contextualize it. You'd rather drop it. You didn't want to set it up differently. No, I don't want to over explain it. It made sense to me, not to them. Okay, it's gone. We're done with this. Move on.

What's the new show about? I don't know. If I knew what the new show was about, there'd be no point in doing it. But it's coming together. It's ready to go.

No, it's been together for the past 10 months. I have it. It's there. To me, it's about staying once, it's about simultaneously being one past 10 months I have it it's there to me it's about staying once it's about simultaneously being one step ahead

of the audience and at the same time taking them with you so you give them what they expect but not in a way that they expect it and you

there has to be times during the show where they have no idea what's happening or what's going to happen next so I tell there's some very clean stand-up. There's some very well-structured,

classic, old-school story stand-up. Bulletproof in the sense that I know it works. There are other stories then where we talk about darker things and you have a sense of the audience going, where the fuck is this going? And then we get into a bit of filth at the end

just to... Classic filth ending. Just, you know, yeah, so that's the shape of the show at the minute. I see Bill Hicks called it, I think, Dick Joke Island

where you land after the arc. That's ultimately, totally, the arc. Totally. Everyone leaves. A friend of mine says something very interesting. The other day he said, uh, the audience should leave in feeling better than they did when they came in. That's a good thing to ponder on for a while.

Yeah. And I guess it's like up to anybody, uh, in terms of who's doing it, how, how, how they're going to try to make that happen. But I,

I remember going to see you in Montreal. Yeah. And what made you feel like there wasn't a happy ending or anything, but, uh, I know. When was that? It was in a very small room it was probably um you were i tell

you when it was you were 200 episodes into the podcast okay because maybe you gave some sort of speech uh in oh that was right the the that was the uh the keynote no this is in starbucks you just stood up and started talking it felt like it was a very emotional thing to be asked to do that yeah because i was always so threatened in in Montreal that there were just so many people that were so much funnier than me. So I had to sort of be honest. And I did that speech and it worked out okay. It was fantastic. Got some good laughs.

I also remember you met your manager or your agent in the foyer of the hotel. And he said, hey, Marin, M-A-R-O-N. Remember me? Yeah, that's right. Not with them anymore. Are you still with Becky? I don't do enough in America really to justify having representation. Is that a disappointment to you?

I just want to do what I do. Yeah. Okay, that's a odd answer. I just want to do what I do. Yeah. Okay. That's a good answer. I've kind of lost the, I've lost any geographical ambition. But do you feel like you tried? Not really.

I kind of, I didn't knock on the door. I kind of looked in the window. Right. I wasn't invited in. So I said, okay, that's okay. but i i'd like i well i got a big thrill this year of playing montreal

playing to people who didn't really know me yeah and i loved that and i did a tour of the uk again it's the same thing where people didn't really know me i loved that so they not know you they came to see you right so well they came to see but i'm it's kind of like a date as opposed to a uh taking your wife out to dinner okay does that make sense no i get it i get it but but there are people not unlike me like you must see people your age in the audience that have grown up with you no i what i see is say montreal i saw people who maybe had seen me once or twice in montreal before but that was it okay instead of grown up with you? No. What I see is, say in Montreal, I saw people who maybe

had seen me once or twice in Montreal before, but that was it. Okay. Seen a few things on TV. But here, here are people. In Ireland,

in Ireland it's a bit different. I'm almost part of the establishment here now. Right, okay, yeah. In that I started doing stand-up and I became very well-known quite quickly here. Yeah.

And then I started to get into trouble for stuff that I've said, but some of that was accidental and joyful. Yeah. And some of it was like an assassination attempt by scurrilous journalists and newspapers um so then people didn't know and then i went through a phase of being kind of wild and angry and that people kind of said i don't really like him anymore and then i started doing in the past year this chat show that's great don't you love doing that well it's a little i don't I love doing it because it's a little bit different.

Again, no more than when I started stand-up, looking at Lenny Bruce and kind of going, wow. I started the chat show because of Letterman. And I loved the way he was able just to be funny and he never had to do that line again. And I said, okay, well, he never had to do that line again. And I said, okay, well, I'd like to do something like that.

But the twist that I have to my chat show is, so it goes out, it's prime time on Saturday night, but the twist of the chat show is, I have no idea who's walking on. Oh, I see. You really don't? I have no idea.

Oh, okay. So there's three guests per night sometimes they're famous sometimes they're ordinary members of the public but i have no idea who's coming that's exciting uh and the that has landed in a way with this country in a way with this country that is again i can't fully explain the show or i understand why people like it or it's that thing of it's slightly beyond my control i can't really define it so that has kind of they love it though people love it yeah um That has re-established me in the minds of most people in Ireland as, okay, we like that. Yeah. He's okay.

Whereas I was out, you know, I was the lunatic with the broken vodka bottle on the hill screaming at the primary school children and they were kind of going, we don't like him. But now I'm in the town making shoes

as well. Oh, look, the cobb cobbler yeah remember when he was angry yeah he still gets angry every now and again he goes is that him can't be but you're saying that when you go out and do the uk and stuff that that there is a new audience or in montreal there is a new one i love that so someone said to me okay tommy um your wife and kids are going to travel with you you're going to spend the next year traipsing around the states doing shows i'd say sign me up for that please i'd love that i'd love to really i would love to play to people who aren't familiar with me i'm confident enough with what i do on stage to know i'm not going to be broken by the experience and i have enough uh competence to kind of manage the moment when was the last time you did that tour of the states uh i haven't been i i did a uh comics i did comics comedy club in new york

in a long time ago that was a beautiful place that lasted 10 minutes really that all it was lovely lovely place treated you well paid you you good Absolutely Put you up in a nice hotel Absolutely Closed in a year Something like that So yeah How old's your youngest kid? My youngest boy is 10 Oh so you've really And my oldest is 29 And I have a granddaughter as well

Two wives? Two people One wife Yeah One girlfriend Okay So how many with the Three and three

Oh wow Okay So I started very young you know um get along with all of them uh yeah i do my kids are great i think that the thing about my experience of having children is that it's a it's the it's the call to relationship. So there's an opportunity for relationship all the time. Yeah. Now,

I'm not a great dad. I'm not practical. I'm not, part of me actually doesn't know how to be a dad. I don't know what they want. A friend of mine said one time, shelter. Your duty as said one time, shelter.

Your duty as a father to provide shelter. And that can be physical, financial, I wouldn't be great at emotional shelter. But, I'm there.

And it's the call to relationship. So I, I need totems. I'm one of those people who need totems. So, one of those people who need totems. So, these,

all the tattoos I have, they're all, my mind needs, Tommy, don't forget, don't forget, because I can guess, I can, it's like,

it's almost like living in a monastery that has, we pray at seven, we pray at 10, we have lunch at 12, we work from two to five. The day is marked and in a kind of fucked up way, the tattoos are like that for me. I kind of go on, don't forget, don't forget, don't forget. So the next one I'm going to get is just the names of my kids as a thing of relationship. You have this relationship.

Because a lot of time on your own, you know, in hotel rooms, in towns where you don't live, and you're kind of, what am I going to do all day? I'm going to buy a book, I'm going to watch a movie. It's so self-indulgent,

even though you have this orchestra of an evening waiting for you uh so i need the totems i need the kind of the tattoos mean so there's a tattoo of a bird on my hand and to me that's about instinct and that maybe your instinct isn't always bad tommy maybe in the way that you look at a bird fluttering here there and everywhere obeying its own impulses and you have a dead bird on the other hand no and then so i look at that and i go okay you're insane the four of my fingers are the four evangelists. And that's a reminder that outside of the church, outside of Catholicism and the Pope, that I get something out of reading the Gospels.

Away from dogma, away from orthodoxy, away from just a private encounter between me and this story and the radical nature of the Gospels. I get something out of that. So they all mean something. So the thing with the children is that it's an opportunity. So say a person without children is on their own. That's me.

In a room in a hotel. Yes, me. Okay. And you're thinking, what am I going to do today? And when I'm in that situation, I have a thing. Okay, I have six children and I can phone any of them up and have a conversation. And they're like, oh, dad's in a hotel again. Yeah.

I think one of my daughters is definitely hey there are you alone in a hotel okay dad so it's it's like that so it's a it's a it's a cultural relationship where are you with jesus i don't understand most of it. I don't, I buy a lot of books about Jesus and I don't understand the vast majority of it. When people talk about, I have a relationship with, I go, what?

Where? How? I don't know. I don't get that. there's a line from the gospel according to Luke sell all you have and come follow me now now that is

so counter cultural that it's so it feels like a tremendous responsibility on who's on his half, especially when you don't know what he looks like. Come follow me. You leave the hotel and you're looking for him. Yeah. I don't,

I think that's one of the reasons why I always keep people at, or like, like in terms of when we were talking earlier, we didn't get to the part where I didn't have a happy ending when you saw me. Oh yes. Yeah. Yeah. More about you.

No, I'm just saying that like, I, I don't know what to do with followers. I barely know what to do with fans, you know? Oh yeah. Because like it's,

it's emotionally, it kind of, uh, I have bad boundaries. So it exhausts me emotionally so the idea of someone selling their things and following me to me is not that i'm luke but even just for him you know it'd be like oh my god then you get these people you got to feed them you got to tell them what to do with their lives so if you're much easier you say i feel bad for you yes good luck yeah i hope everything works out i gotta go yeah um so that yeah so i

thought that's what i'm i'm i'm he'd be a hero i'm constantly intrigued and i would say uh yeah he's no more than i'm very interested in him yeah i know and i don't even know if him is the right word to jesus yeah i don't i'm very interested all right so let know and i don't even know if him is the right word jesus yeah i don't i'm very interested all right so let's talk about my unhappy ending and when i left that show i remember it was in a thin room there was a kind of a metal staircase towards the back the seats were more than no more than four or five per row and what was refreshing was the there wasn't a happy ending but i kind of felt you know when you see other unhappy people and it kind of, it kind of says you're not alone. Yeah, that's my job for the unhappy.

For the sensitive creative ones that just don't feel. I just felt good that I'm not, I have seen myself reflected. There you go. And that explains my very specific audience. A glum lot looking for a little relief. I was very taken by that. Because that's an unusual voice in stand-up. Because you're not a slave to the dick joke.

You're not a slave to that rhythm. And that's very refreshing. There aren't that many people who speak honestly on stage. I think you do. I don't really, Mark. I play. You mix it up, though.

I'm just saying that you do talk about yourself. Yes. Yeah. Well, it was good talking to you. It was a pleasure talking to you. Tommy Tiernan. It was a pleasure talking to you. Tommy Tiernan. That was nice. Nice talking to an Irish fella.

Tommy Hector and Loretta, the podcast, is available wherever you get your podcasts. You can also watch him and the Dairy Girls on Netflix. And now we all hang out for a second. I'll hang out for a second. It's winter, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So, no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs, mozzarella balls, and arancini balls?

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Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under

the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Folks, I told you we'd post some stand-up for you, but then I got the HBO special and I wanted to wait until after that was done. This week, we're posting more than a half an hour of stuff I did over the past year that didn't make it into the special. I've posted that I wrote today. This is what's going on today. Hard to decide who to listen to when nobody shuts the fuck up. It's fucking living a with, like, amateur talk radio show hosts and wrestling heels. What the fuck happened?

This is from two days ago. When I hate myself, I hate everyone who has ever liked me. Okay. This is what I do, and this is part of the show. This is not notes. This is all prepared. I know what I'm doing here. I'm sharing what I do. Sometimes I do it on bigger pieces of paper.

The bigger writing, I had to pull the car over to do that. That was urgent. I'll share some of that with you. We are wired for duplicity. Our parents aren't who we think they are. I had to pull over for that. And then right under it, it says, gaslighting parenting. This isn't fucking lighthearted shit.

Is this comedy? I think it is. That was my set from last year at Town Hall in New York. Last November. So a year and a month before I shot my special at Town Hall. You can sign up for the full Marin if you're not already subscribed. Go to the link in the episode description or click on WTF Plus at WTFpod.com. On Thursday, James Austin Johnson from Saturday Night Live is on the show. He just, I was in Nashville and I was on stage.

I was talking to Chad Ryden from the stage, a guy who went to Prince's Chicken with me for the first time when I almost had to go to the emergency room. And I thought there was other people there. And I asked who was with us. And he said, James Austin Johnson. And I'm like, what? I don't remember that at all. So I thought I didn't know this guy.

And I knew this guy. And then there was another guy I didn't even know was there. I don't know if I'm getting dementia like my dad or what but uh but i just i got i got to talk to the guy it was great talk he's very funny his trump is hilarious that thing he did the dylan thing he did on fallon oh my god guy's a talented guy and a good guy all right here's some uh here's some chords that are familiar to anyone who hears me play guitar. But by the way, I've been fucking around with an open G tuning with just five strings like Keith. So fun.

You know, you can just learn how to play guitar on YouTube. Do you guys know that? Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Boomer lives. Monkey and the Fonda cat angels. Everywhere.