WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1393 - Rian Johnson

Episode Date: December 19, 2022

Rian Johnson revived the mystery genre with his movie Knives Out and now he’s seeing what other places he can take it, both with the sequel Glass Onion and his new detective series Poker Face. But that’s the kind of filmmaker Rian is. As he tells Marc, Rian enjoys hopping genres, whether it’s a noir takeoff like Brick, a time travel riff like Looper, or the metatextual Star Wars mythology he explored in The Last Jedi. They also talk about Rian’s direction of two classic Breaking Bad episodes.Click here to Ask Marc Anything and Marc might answer your question in WTF+ bonus content. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store

and ACAS Creative. Lock the gates! Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fuck, Knicks? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron.

This is my podcast. Welcome to it. Holidays are upon us. Ease in. Don't freak out. Try to have a good time. I want to wish everyone, everyone a happy Hanukkah. Happy Hanukkah to all.

I didn't even know it was Hanukkah until like midway through the day yesterday. It's weird when you primarily live alone and perhaps the person in your life isn't Jewish and your parents are sort of onto their own things. And I don't know, just nobody. It's kind of a little sad to light the candles alone. I've done it. Maybe I'll light them with kit. I don't know. But I didn't know. And I didn't know it was the first day yesterday. And I do know it's the second day today. So happy Hanukkah. And again, well, nothing again. Just happy Hanukkah. Okay. All right. Good. So today on the show, Ryan Johnson is here. Just happy Hanukkah. Okay? All right, good. So today on the show, Rian Johnson is here.

He's the director of Brick, Looper, Star Wars, The Last Jedi, and Knives Out. His new movie, Glass Onion, premieres on Netflix this Friday. Caught up with all his stuff. Got into it, got the vibe. I liked Looper. I actually liked all of them.

Didn't watch the Star Wars movie because I think I would have had to get up to speed. It would have taken me a lifetime. So, look, man. Exciting times as we head into the holidays. It seems that three of the four narcissists of the Idiocalypse are, you know, kind of spiraling out. Flaming out. Amazing.

Exciting times. You know, the singularity has happened, people. It's just very disappointing. But the machines are dictating what most of the culture thinks about. And it's ridiculous and stupid. I know there's a lot of things going on, but why do we need to know? Why do we why does anyone I am so tired of anything to do with Donald Trump driving any part of culture. And the fact that he gets on TV to sell his electronic baseball cards with him shooting lasers out of his eyes in such a kind of like just a crazy Eddie type of infomercial. I mean, is he still your president, i mean it's like that's your president are you still proud will you still follow that guy to the end of the world i know some of you

are so out of your mind that you think it's some sort of intentional diversion but that is actually donald trump returning to being donald trump in his purest form huckster donald showing trading cards day late dollar short that guy kanye is just digging himself in the other narcissist of the apocalypse full-on jew hating spiral of some kind just i guess i don't know maybe he's got some followers too maybe he's still your guy kanye the genius this is how a genius unravels in just a a uh a fit of ongoing anti-semitic statements the genius another genius elon musk that guy is paranoid he bans journalists because he thinks he's going to get assassinated how much adderall do you got to be doing he's just sitting around

shutting things down get rid of them they're coming to get me where's my cowboy hat who's going to assassinate elon musk he's more likely to fall off of something or jump out of something or have something he made burst into flames. But so those three, those three narcissists of the idiocalypse are seem to be flaming out. Fine with me. I don't like them dictating conversations. When I watch comedy, it's like everybody has to have their angle on all that shit. And it's so boring. There's more interesting things going on around the corner from me with regular people. I'm sure there's a lady down the street knitting some blanket for her grandchild is infinitely more exciting than anything going on with Donald Trump, Kanye West or Elon Musk. Just her sitting there reflecting and trying to decide what color wool to use.

Infinitely more interesting. There might be a guy around the corner just sitting around in sort of a sad state wondering what's wrong with his dog's dick. Who wouldn't want to hear that story? Elon Musk sitting around by himself in an office. People right across the street from me. Some of them may have had one of their toes amputated.

That's more interesting than anything those guys are saying or doing. Bring it back to the community. Am I right? So there is something I do want to talk about in a real way, in an emotional way, in a personal way. Silver Friedman has passed away. Now, many of you have heard of Bud Friedman. We, I think we reposted his episode.

He passed away not too long ago, a month or so ago. Silver Friedman is Bud Friedman's ex-wife. Now, Bud Friedman, everyone knows Bud Friedman, the guy with the monocle from the evening at the improv, but his ex-wife Silver, many years ago, before I started doing comedy, in the divorce settlement, she got the original improv, the original one, the first improv on 44th Street in Hell's Kitchen in New York City. That was the place where it started as sort of a cabaret, kind of a variety club, kind of a hangout for people after the theater. You know, a lot of people in the theater would come and sing

and do numbers and do bits and sketches and comedians would go. It was just, it has a long history. And many people who started there at the original improv, this is in New York City. This is before Catch a Rising Star, before the comic strip. The original improv was there forever, and everyone moved through there, and everyone who, before they left for L.A.,

moved through the original improv. And back in the day, it was Silver and Bud working at that place. Then Bud Splits comes to L.A., and now Silver had this place. Now, when i moved to new york city from boston 1989 after i'd been doing started working as a comic in 1988 new york was a tough city it was a tough city to get working it was a tough city to get passed in there wasn't just you know 100 bringer shows or 90 different places do all comedy there were comedy clubs there was the cellar. There was the Strip.

There was Dangerfields. There was Catch a Rising Star. And then when there was what was left of the old improv, the old improv was hanging on down there on 44th Street. Boston Comedy Club was another place. Now, I couldn't get work at the Cellar for eight years. But Silver, over at the original improv, let me work right from the get-go. She put me on right when I got to New York.

And she was an intense person, a difficult person. Sometimes you just kind of had to keep your distance because she was mad about something. But she had things to say. She was creative. She had input. She would watch you. She was engaged with all of us, you know, all of us broken toys,

all of us drifting Jews going in and out of the improv. Some guys you know worked the door there. I think Etel worked the door there. I think Kevin Brennan worked the door there. Those guys from my generation. But it was not a popular club. It was this rundown kind of relic of a different time, but it was still going.

In my recollection, it said the improvisation on the wall in letters and i believe the eye was hanging was dangling forever there were just tables the stage was very low there was a bar out front there are all these black and white pictures behind glass on the wall when you walked in everybody was there the ones that you know you there was pictures eliza manelli there was prior there was uh guys in ones that, you know, there was pictures of Liza Minnelli. There was Pryor. There was guys in comedy teams that you didn't know. And she would put us on. And she was very supportive. She's one of the first people to give me work.

And she passed away. I went to her memorial and I, you know, I had been out of touch. Her daughter, Zoe Friedman, is still in the business she booked letterman for a brief period of time gave me my first letterman the friedman ladies helped me out more than uh than most people but silver's gone and i went to the memorial for a little while and i left i saw some people i saw dom there and fitzsimmons was there and some old faces that hadn't seen many years. Mike Ivey. But like, I remember Silver very well because she supported me and believed in me and was hard on me.

But it's heavy, man. Even though I don't, I was out of touch with her, obviously, for many years. And she was out here with Zoe. But, you know, when Zoe texted me, I wanted to be there. I wanted to go over there and pay my respects, say hi to Zoe and just, you know, everybody knows who Bud Friedman is. But Silver Friedman was very important to many of us who were starting out in New York. And we're just trying to get a a foothold or the club was you know it was it had its time and she was always struggling to keep it going it was really something that's where I met Dan Vitale I remember like one time when Bill Hicks was in New York for

five minutes he decided to move there at some point I can't remember what year it was it must have been 89 90 he wasn't there that long but what year it was. It must have been 89, 90. He wasn't there that long, but I remember it was New Year's Eve, and we were just hanging around that improv, and no one was in there, really. And, you know, the Times Square thing was just around the corner, and me and Vitaly, they're both dead. Me and Vitaly were hanging around. Hicks comes in.

It's like, Happy New Year. Let's go down and watch the ball. And I just remember me and Vitaly and Bill Hicks. And Vitaly was heavy at that time, big boy boy we're just freezing cold and we're just wandering trying to get to times square to see something but there was thousands of people and then hicks was like let's go back and we went back and it was just like there was 10 of us bringing in the new year i remember it was funny to see hicks there because it was you know there was it was like 9 10 people sometimes you know they just wasn like nine, ten people sometimes. You know, they just wasn't drawing crowds and Hicks would be up there just yelling at them.

It was quite stunning. He was a little too, he was too angry for New York. But I remember one time I was sitting in the back of the room. There was probably 20 people in it. And for some reason, Brian Regan had come by. So late 80s probably. And Hicks was just sitting back there and he just sort of went, I love watching watching Brian Regan it's a beautiful Hicks moment because they couldn't have been more different both great performers but you know subject-wise polar opposites but I you know I'm so I'm the

same way I like watching there's people I like to watch that are just funny anyway the original improv in its final days is very important to me silver freeman played a very important role in my life as an early as an early supporter of me and as somebody who gave me stage time uh before anyone else would and uh i just wanted to to say that i love you, Silver, and rest in peace. So look, this guy, Ryan Johnson, is a true film nerd and a true film craftsman. And I watch many of his movies to see his evolution as a filmmaker. Glass Onion, a Knives Out mystery, is streaming on Netflix starting Friday.

And this is my conversation with Ryan Johnson. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising.

Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel

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I sit out there. I, like, smoke a cigar. I'm like, oh, this is worth it all. How many cigars do you smoke a day? I keep to one, yeah. smoke a cigar, and I go, this is worth it all. How many cigars do you smoke a day? You want a day? I keep to one, yeah. One a day. Are you a cigar smoker?

I was off nicotine for years, and it's like, you know, now, like, because I'm under a certain amount of stress, and I was going to Canada, and somehow I made the exception. But it's like when you're a nicotine addict, all it takes is one, and then it's a downhill slope. It can start to, yeah. But I've been smoking them yeah again yeah what do you smoke i i smoke well when i go over to london i basically i feel like a bootlegger i just pile up on cubans bring them back so you like the cubans still i like the cubans yeah i don't know if it's a i don't know if it's a placebo effect thing just that i know that they're cubans but i swear that they do taste they taste different and specific. Yeah.

And they all have a similar thing. Yeah. They have different degrees of strength and depth, but there is a Cuban taste, no doubt. So I started with Goibas

and they recently, a buddy of mine got me into the Partagas, so I don't know if I'm pronouncing it right. Partagas, like number twos or something? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So it's beautiful. Yeah, they're good. Yeah. I like strong ones. You should try to get some of those Cuban Bolivars. Oh, yeah? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's beautiful. Yeah, they're good. Yeah. I like strong ones. You should try to get some of those Cuban Bolivars. Oh, yeah? Yeah. But I like to sweat and feel a little nauseous.

Have you ever smoked? Yeah. I tried because I was pretentious in my 20s. You ever smoked a pipe? You ever smoked like- I've smoked just about everything you can smoke. Like I think I tried a pipe at some point in in time but there's really no way to pull it off if it also it fucks you up like it's actually like i don't know i i'm not a pot smoker at all

i never smoked cigarettes it's just cigars for me um but a pipe like is a lot strong it looks so quaint but it's actually like knocks you on your ass it's actually like yeah yeah yeah you got and all of them you're gonna inhale a little bit yeah and you can kind of feel it happening pipes are fun because they're sweet a lot of people like those hookahs like there's uh yeah like the water pipe thing yeah the big water pipes i sit around do that business yeah yeah but pipes are a little hard to pull off were you in high school smoking a pipe oh i give you yeah no i was in college it was worse you can imagine a fucking college student smoking this doing the pipe oh christ Oh, Christ. I thought it was

Tolkien. There's no way to pull it off. Oh, God. There's just no fucking worst. There's just no way to be like casual

about a pipe. Can't do it. That's why I don't like cigars because there's such a bro culture. I know. That's the problem. Like cigar affects you

and all that shit. It's kind of like I don't want to be seen smoking them but I just enjoy it. I'm just like a nicotine fiend and like i'll get a jones on the road and i'll go to a cigar place and you know where i can smoke inside and it's it's like five or six of the same guys no matter where you go there's always a fucking sports game on.

And, you know, I just try to, I try to, occasionally I'll have a good conversation there, but I'm just, like, I try to keep it around the drug. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Just focus on your own. So the movie came out, like, it made, like, a bunch of money in the movie theater. It did all right.

Yeah. Yeah. It did good. I mean, it was, it was, it was a weird thing because it was kind of a, it made like a bunch of money in the movie theater. It did all right. Yeah, yeah. It did good. I mean, it was a weird thing because it was kind of a, it wasn't a limited release, but it was like only like 600 theaters. It wasn't like a wide release. But it was like this weird kind of like, like they don't, because it's Netflix, they didn't have, it wasn't a huge promotional campaign. No, I mean, they did promote it. I mean, the big thing for them, and this is kind of what we pushed and what we got, was they kind of reached across the aisle.

And so AMC, Regal, and Cinemark, which all three of those had never carried movies before, took it. So it was 600 theaters, but it was in really high-traffic theaters. Right. But for me, it was just like, I don't know, man. It's a fun movie to see with a crowd. Right. And so being able to go out and see and just stand in the back of the theater and soak up the energy yeah it's like it was really it was fun it was it was well that's what i'm coming off like a high of the

past week yeah i bet oh you're just wandering around the theater i was i would just go around i would just like sneak in the back and just kind of soak it up it was how was it it was great it was awesome people responding to it oh my god yeah it's it's a. It was awesome. People responding to it? Oh, my God, yeah. That was really fun. Usually, I'm standing in the back with a knot in my stomach, like, is this going to work? Sure. After a couple of them, I'm like, oh, okay. I don't know how that sounds, but it's like, oh, people are like, yeah, yeah, yeah.

But despite whatever amazing deal you made with Netflix, isn't there some disappointment that it's not going to run? Yeah. I mean, I can't really complain. But look, I mean, the reality is it's kind of, I don't know. It's a complicated thing because when we, I mean, first of all, Netflix has been absolutely awesome. The fact that they did this was a huge, huge thing for them. Like it's actually, I'm really thankful. As opposed to just sneak it into two screens to get it up for awards? To do the regular thing.

Yeah. Just like put it in a couple of theaters or whatever. So the fact that they made this effort and actually really pushed it. But isn't it odd that they just don't give a shit about the money it could make in a theater versus what they would pick up in subscribers in two months? I guess. Look, I don't know, man. It's above my pick, right?

I mean, yeah, you're asking me. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I- Why can't we make all the money? It's probably good for Netflix stockholders that I don't run Netflix. But is that it for a theatrical run on this thing? Well, after it drops on the service at Christmas, it's not like we'll do a full run, but we'll be able to do a little, theaters will be able to have it if they want it.

So I'm hoping there'll be little things here and there. But, yeah, that's it for this. So, like, entering, like, I had to, like, get up to speed on you pretty quickly. Like, you know, I had seen Brick at some, like, what had I seen? Well, I saw your Breaking Bad episodes, obviously. And I watched Nights Out. Yeah. Well, I watched most of the movies.

But for this one, just in dealing with the two, I mean, it seems like you took on the genre head on in Knives Out. This was a mansion. It was a family. It felt like, but you tweaked it. And they were higher stakes. I think the dialogues had a better clip than the old timey ones. Yeah.

Yeah. But the challenge was for you to sort of own that particular form. Yeah. I mean, I've done kind of movies in different genres before. And for me, it's kind of, I don't know. For me, it's sort of about having a genre that I grew up loving, first of all. So I got an emotional connection to it. And all I'm trying to do, really, I'm – all I'm trying to do is kind of connect back up in the most direct way to what I love about it and get that on the screen.

But that, with the genre that has kind of layers of veneer over it over the years, like you've seen it a bunch. Yeah, you got to kind of – you got to shake it a little. You little you got to tweak it i mean a big part of it with these ones is just setting them in modern day america you know so many whodunits i'd seen over the years and loved our period pieces sure in england so just like all right it's forget timelessness it's it's set in america right here right now and but you're able to deal with the old mansion yeah the other one so there was like the trappings. Yeah. Well, with this one, though, I mean, it's interesting.

There is kind of like a whole subgenre of the vacation mystery. You think about like Death on the Nile, Evil Under the Sun, The Last of Sheila. Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of them now. I mean, isn't that movie The Chef movie? Oh, yeah. I haven't seen it yet. And White Lotus is really-

And Sandler's mystery thing is kind of like a- Yeah, it's a whole thing, the destination murder thing. So there's a tradition of it. Yeah. There's that, but- Well, that's interesting. Yeah. So, yeah.

But this was really more of like a compound situation. This wasn't like people sort of in an uncomfortable place. No. Or a place that's beautiful that becomes horrible because someone's dead. No, not really. It's kind of, yeah. But this one for you, like in approaching it as a writer. Yeah.

I mean, the other one was family. Yeah. The other one was about, you know, property being left about a will. Yeah. will yeah so like this was the entire device and and this sort of genre buttons yeah were not there yeah it's this one is but at the same time there are other ones that i'm leaning on so with this one i mean first of all it was about a group of a group of friends which is another trope of uh of the murder mystery thing which actually puts me ahead like a lot of christy's stuff it's just people who live in the same town or people are vaguely connected.

So even just having a group of friends who are trapped together on an island gives me kind of a density that like is really helpful. Right. But then, yeah, leaning into, I mean, it's all like with Whodunit, it's all about the power structure. It's all about group assessments. Right. Yeah, yeah. Kind of a microcosm of society. Right, right, right.

Power structure, somebody at the top that needs to die. Right. Yeah. microcosm of society power power structure somebody at the top that needs to die you know and this one it was clicking in kind of okay it's a tech billionaire up at the top so that kind of makes sense like who this group of friends are and we can talk about this and that and then it kind of is so it all kind of folds and what was it about the idea of so many breakable things i mean like you know right at the beginning of the movie, you're sort of like, well, there's a lot of glass. Yeah.

Not just the place, but all the sculptures that, you know, that's set up for some reason. Yeah, it's Chekhov's glass trinkets, basically. It's like, yeah, the notion that kind of, I don't know.

I mean, like the, and I'll try not to like spoil it if anyone listening hasn't seen it, but like, you know, I like the idea that what happens at the end kind of very much follows what Miles Braun, what Edward Norton's character describes as disruption, which is, you know, breaking, you start by breaking stuff. Sure. Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

It's also cheesy art. Totally. Oh, yeah. That's the thing. You've been staring at those things the whole week, the movie on their cheese wobbly little pedestal scene yeah i want and by the way the actors by the time we got to the end of shooting in that set we've been on that set for like two months they were like tiptoeing around these fucking things they were dying to start smashing those so it was cathartic oh they did it everyone was like oh my god everyone was

like calling i'm gonna break that one oh that's funny. It was good. And the one thing I noticed about these, because I don't watch a lot of them, is that there's really no way to figure it out. There's a great quote. There's Ellery Queen, which was this series that was written by a couple of writers. One of them had a great quote that said, we play fair with the audience if the audience is a genius. But I think, which is exactly what you're saying, it's like there's the illusion that these things are puzzles that are fairly presented to the audience. I think it's actually really important in writing them to realize they're not, to realize that's never going to be the source of entertainment. You have to build a roller coaster ride. You got to build a fun movie with the same dramatic elements that make any other movie tick.

Otherwise, you're going to get bored. Right, right. If you get to the end and it feels like in retrospect, it did something unfair. But I still think the notion that you can solve it or the notion that that's what keeps you entertained is totally an illusion. I think even in a good ongoing series. I think people know that too, right? Yeah, totally. Yeah, completely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know when I'm watching any kind of whodunit, maybe the first 15 minutes I'm thinking whodunit. And then I'm like, oh, I don't know.

I'll never figure this out. Just, you know. I was watching that though that one with the Kate Winslet you know the mayor of winning oh yeah Mary Winslet yeah whatever it is and I was sort of like I was mad you know because like at the end I'm like well how would we know that that happened I did I didn't see I didn't see it so I guess me I'm kind of thankful now I didn't see it so well she was great and it was all great but it was like it was presented as a murder mystery, not as like a whodunit thing, kind of was. But I guess this is why I never really locked into that medium because I just get anxious. It's not a genre for anxious people.

Like I get to that point where I'm like, get on with it. How are we still waiting to solve this? Well, I guess, and that's kind of, I mean, my approach with these ones is to assume that you are,

that what you just described, you personally are watching this movie and that the notion being I want people to be having such a good time watching it,

they forget they're supposed to be solving it. I want to take that off the audience as quickly as possible. Sure, yeah. And so that's why

with the first one and with this one, I try and do things where it's – I take the onus off of whodunit and put it more on, oh, we're following this person who's trying to accomplish this. Sure. Yeah. So, you know. No, no. It's very entertaining. But I have to – like the one thing I notice about the space is that the pace of Knives Out was so, you know, and it happens in the new one too,

but just the nature of the cinematic space is so expansive that any sort of joke you're going to run is so under the microscope. You know what I mean? Because it just stands alone and a lot of it's based on futuristic things. Right.

So you had to play that stuff out in a different way. Yeah, which to me, also, I mean, look, when we made the first one, the idea of doing more of them was only interesting to me if, like, I don't know, it could be something completely different each time. Right. And I want the audience to have a different experience, but even more than that, just selfishly, I know I need to have a new challenge with these things. So wait, are you going to make more of them? Yeah, I'm doing one more at least with Netflix. but even more than that just selfishly i know i need to have a new new challenge with so wait are you gonna make more of them yeah i gotta i'm doing one more at least with one more at least with netflix but we're gonna put you're gonna place this one underwater i don't know i'm gonna take the franchise to space it's time no no don't do it there's just too many you'll just open yourself

up to the potential of too many bad jokes no it's time why not you're gonna go to space space time to take it to space a moon mystery well that was well that's the other thing about what was great about looper is like at the end of that there's this moment where your brain wants to sort of like well could this really happen like what are you even asking does this make sense is there logic to this ending slap right you can't yeah but i thought but i thought you handled that genre very well and that's another one that i don't watch a lot of but go but going where'd you grow up uh well i i was i was a kid in colorado but i've been in southern california since uh since i was in junior high oh Oh, really? What part of Colorado? New Denver.

Oh, yeah? Englewood, yeah. No, I grew up in New Mexico, but I go to Colorado a lot, but that's where you were born? No, well, I was born in Maryland, but then we moved after a few years to Colorado, and I got a lot of family still in Colorado. I go back there a lot, yeah. So your folks? I love it. No, my mom lives in Southern California, and my dad did live in Colorado, but he passed away. Oh, sorry, man. Yeah, yeah. Who got you interested in movies? I think, I mean, my dad,

none of my family was in the movie business. Yeah. My dad was in the home building business, but I think he was a frustrated artist. Really? Yeah, I think he always wanted to. What made you feel that? Because he would say I always wanted to. He'd say I'm i wish i could be making movies why am i building houses i mean he

liked his work he enjoyed his work but um but he he loved loved loved movies and my family loves movies you know oh yeah yeah my granddad you know yeah was he like a movie buff kind of guy or he was yeah i mean he wasn't like uh you know deep deep deep movie buff guy but yeah he fucking loved movies and he kind of and i he loved directors also i guess that's the thing like yeah like he he would show he showed me like you know scorsese's movies but like even more than the movies like i don't know looking at your dad and like you know wanting his respect yeah seeing him talk about this director, Scorsese, with that kind of, it's kind of,

there was a really deep, powerful thing in terms of the director is the person who makes the movie. I'm seeing my dad hold them in esteem. So he knew his stuff enough to know. Oh, yeah. And he was a Scorsese guy? Yeah, he loved Scorsese. Yeah, yeah.

Raging Bull was kind of his, he showed me Raging Bull probably when I was too young. Yeah. He loved Scorsese. That Raging Bull was kind of his uh he showed me Raging Bull probably when I was too young but yeah he loves Scorsese that's a good one I watch I watch that as much as once or twice a year I got that movie like memorized oh of course yeah just like shot by shot yeah totally I can play it in my head yeah even those those fight sequences yeah yeah absolutely yeah especially those but even like the small stuff like the I don't don't know, I haven't seen, I don't know, I got buddies like, you know, Edgar Wright, who like have seen every movie in the world and have this encyclopedia.

Yeah. I haven't got that, but the movies I have seen, I've watched a thousand times each, you know? What I thought was interesting recently about re-watching Raging Bull in the Criterion collection of fighting movies is that I realized that, you know, the black and white thing. Yeah. You know, I don't know if I ever put it together before other than it was an interesting choice.

Yeah. But it's easier to shoot fight movies in black and white. Yeah. Because the makeup is easier. Oh, completely. The blood. Yeah. Everything. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like if you want to put a fake nose on a guy, it's a lot easier in black and white, dude. Dude, they never would have gotten away with that LaMonda nose and that shot in color. Exactly. You look at it and you're like, wait a minute. Right. You can see the seam even in black and white. So it's totally practical. Yeah, completely.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And also like fight movies are always the same. So in a sense, like he did what you do with genre in that movie. Yeah. Well, in so many of the classic fight movies, you think about like, you know, so many of the classic fight movies or like the boxing noirs or whatever,

it's just rooted in that black and white tradition. It's hard to think of. But also the stories are all the same. Yeah, yeah, yeah. The corrupt like- Yeah, either it's hubris that's going to bring the guy down. Totally.

Or he's got to sell himself out. It's corrupt about it. It says, I never went down, Ray. Yeah, yeah. Never went down, Ray. Oh my yeah. Never went down, Ray. Oh, my God. Never knocked me down, Ray. And Ray's just looking at him like, what's wrong with you, man?

I will. Half of my. And did you just talk to James Gray? Did you just have a James Gray? I did, yeah. Half of my relationship with him is just us out of context texting each other raging bull quotes. That's funny.

It seems like half of my. I've got a new relationship with him. It's just texting pictures of food we cooked. Oh, well, raging bull quotes. That's funny. It seems like half of my, I've got a new relationship with him. It's just texting pictures of food we cooked. Oh, well, you're going, I don't know which is, which is healthier.

No, he seems like a real, a real, he likes, he likes the business. He's, he's an amazing dude. Yeah,

he is. Smart guy. Oh my God. Yeah. Yeah. So, you're one of these guys who started making movies when you were like three? Yeah, yeah.

It feels like boring to talk about it. But you're old man, though. So, who were some of his other directors you were going to tell me? He was really into Scorsese. He loved Kasdan. He loved Lawrence Kasdan. He loved, like, he's really into Kasdan's movies. Big Chill.

Accidental Tourist. Body Heat. He loved Accidental Tourist. Yeah. Body Heat, yeah. I watched that again recently yeah it holds up

that's a good noir it's great oh it's fucking great yeah it's terrific yeah good twist at the end oh my god well and the whole thing

just that kind of kind of that and sexual in a way that Hollywood movies aren't today you know like how so well just that kind of like

humid even though it's kind of goofy. Insexual, did you say? Sexual. Oh, sexual. Sexual. I thought, is this a new word? Insexual?

I like it. Insexual. Yes, it's insexual. Oh, yeah. There was definitely an amazing sexual tension. Yeah, which has kind of gone away from Hollywood movies. It hasn't. That's odd.

Because I notice it. I notice when it's not there. Yeah. And I notice that, you know, I mean, it seemed like, well, I watched some of that, what the hell is it called? The Levinson's, the high school thing. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Euphoria. Euphoria. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I am old.

Well, yeah. That's hyper-sexualized. It is, but it also feels like television is where it can exist now whereas you think about it's so weird you think about mainstream hollywood movies i know it's just and so that's but is that a choice that anyone makes i mean like do you make it i mean like your movies i mean there's not a lot of fucking going on no there's not they aren't very sexual in general i mean and i don't know if i don't know if my not doing it i mean for me it's just i do what I'm interested in. I know it's indicative of some bigger thing or whatever. Right, sure.

But I feel like you could theorize there's a lot of things. Is it porn on the internet that suddenly it's like you don't have to get that from that source anymore? Uh-huh. I don't know. My wife's doing like a whole series on her podcast right now about sex in movies in the 80s and 90s and like studying kind of the- What's she coming up with uh it's fascinating yeah it's really really interesting she's kind of using it to talk about like um sex in society in the 80s and 90s and uh yeah that's very well i mean like to reflect on you

know just the process of sex on camera now yeah on a set oh boy i mean it's a big deal even if it's minor absolutely have you worried have you like worked with intimacy yeah i have yeah yeah Oh, boy. thing is i want everyone to feel 100 comfortable yeah just like if there's another element here that doesn't interfere creatively but i can make sure i'm not don't have any blind spots and making everybody comfortable it's like um and you can you can suggest you don't have yeah maybe i'd feel different if i was making adrian line movies and that was really kind of the the thing that fucking was the part of it well i think also that's just an issue too of of what's nudity worth right and you know and what and when is it expected? I mean, a lot of those systems have kind of fallen away, like this idea that are you going to do the topless thing

because you're expected to do the topless thing? It's so interesting, isn't it? It's weird watching older movies where there's a lot of casual nudity and feeling kind of the effect of it in a way that you don't feel numb to it. If anything, it feels more like, whoa, just because there's so little of it, I think, these days in Hollywood product, I think. But, yeah. I thought it was interesting. Well, you did in Looper, actually, you had a scene where the dancer or the piper climbs on top of him.

And I noticed it because there isn't a lot of sex in the movie. And it was so cold and weird. And then for a minute, I'm like, is she uncomfortable? I'm like, no, she's hooker. She's working. She's working. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, drawing the comparison between him doing his job and her trying to do it.

And him looking for a deeper emotional connection and her just wanting to finish her shift. Yeah. And I think, yeah, I don't know. So for me, it was, that was, yeah, completely not a sexy scene at all. That was entirely about like a boy working emotional disconnection. Yeah. But when do you start, you know, does your dad buy you a camera? I bought myself, I got a Super 8 camera in junior high and I started for school projects

shooting my own stuff. And then when, and I was kind of in high school right when like 8mm video came out. Sure. So that was kind of a whole. Betamax or VHS? No, this was, it wasn't, it was one step beyond Betamax VHS. Oh, Super 8. It was the 8mm Hi-8.

Yeah, yeah, Hi-8. Yeah. Hi-8. And then when I was in college college it was dv which were the little tapes yeah so it was like a big thing of like okay now we can and so in high school that's just i that's how i spent most of my time on the weekends with my buddies is just making stupid movies yeah you know not even like making good stuff just or trying to make like a movie like in a quality way literally just we'd hang out and make a James Bond parody,

like that kind of thing. Yeah, yeah. So, yeah. And so you're kind of learning the language? I think that's genuine. I mean, that's the thing. It's like when I talk to friends' kids who are like looking at film school or whatever, I feel like the place where I learned how to make movies

was just making hundreds of them with my buddies and just – there's two things back then. It was like, first of all, just getting used to telling a story with pictures with a camera in your hand, getting comfortable with that. But also what that did, like with tape, was you were editing in camera, so it also taught you editing. Yeah. It's like you do one shot and you move over and do the other shot. Sure.

Teaching yourself how shots go together as opposed to gather a bunch of footage and figure it out in the computer. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So they had that benefit also, I think. But yeah, that was that. I mean, that's really kind of where I learned how to make videos. And were you showing them at the house? Were you showing your dad? We didn't even really show them.

No, really? That's the thing. We'd make them, and then we'd watch them ourselves. And I just, you know. So it was video. So it was kind of disposable. Yeah, it was video. Just totally disposable.

Vimeo. And the internet wasn't around, like we could post them or anything. Sure. So, yeah, we weren't even making them to show them. Was this a goof? They were just hanging out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We were making them because that's what we did

while we hung out. Do you have siblings? Yeah, I'm the oldest of, yeah, I got two younger brothers, younger sister, and then a younger half-brother, yeah. Wow, a lot. Well, I got also, I got like 30, 40 younger cousins and we're all super close.

My cousin Nathan's my composer. We've been making movies together since we were like 10 years old. Really? Yeah, we're like a clan. So you're a music guy? He is, he is. Yeah, my brother also was in the music business, but yeah. Really?

Yeah, he was a producer for a while, yeah. No more? No, no, it's tough, tough, tough business. He got out of it oh really oh man she's heartbreaker yeah just like indie bands and just the whole scene and everything it was just too tough to you you play uh i play a lot of instruments really badly but nothing i don't do i don't play yeah i got a few i played badly over here i can see dude but i think it's for me it's i don't know what it is for you. For me, it's like a creative thing I can do for-

Without expectation. Zero expectation for nobody. I can just sit and do it all and just kind of record bad stuff. Sure. Yeah, I do that too. And I've been doing it all my life. I think, yeah. But I play guitar my whole life.

I mean, I think I've gotten a little better. Yeah. But like, I've done bits about it, how because I never had creative expectations, those aren't sort of like broken dream vessels. They're not signifiers of failure. Exactly. I think it's important to have a creative outlet that you don't, you know. That you don't ruin. Yes, exactly.

So you got a lot of creative siblings. That's interesting. It must have been it was weird all our parents were in the home building business and we all kind of went into the arts but they were supportive they were totally supportive yeah absolutely yeah oh my god well i yeah i kind of like in my 20s actually kind of like or when i as a teenager i kind of fell away from my dad and and me making my first feature was almost like a reconnection point for us in our relationship. What happened?

He, you know, it was a divorce. So he left. Right. And I had a lot of anger. Oh, yeah. How old were you? I was 18 when he left. But I was the oldest of all my siblings.

And my youngest, you know. Yeah. It must have been devastating. It was really, really hard. Yeah. And I was also, yeah, not to go too deep into it, but I was very religious growing up. Yeah, what kind? I was just like Orange County Protestant Christian.

Oh, yeah? But it was actually like, it wasn't just like I went to church with my parents. It was actually like a. Oh, yeah? It was. It's not anymore for me at all, but there was. You had your heart filled? Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, it was. More than that, I would describe it as it was the lens that I saw the world through. Really? It totally was. Yeah. This relationship with, yeah, the relationship with God.

And so that made me even more judgmental and angry when my dad left the family so um so yeah there was yeah there's a child how long uh how long was the uh the anger how long was the the the estrangement yes it's not like we weren't talking to each other but i think our relationship really suffered through my 20s i was very disconnected oh yeah yeah yes but then i suffered through my 20s i was very disconnected oh yeah yeah yes but then i made my first movie when i was like turning 30 and um which one uh brick oh yeah brick yeah yeah yeah yeah i kind of had spent my 20s trying to make it and finally finally yeah and that and that uh brought him back around or brought you guys together it was weird

we kind of reconnected as adults it was almost like forming a relationship with a new person because at that point it was strange. It was kind of like rediscovering each other as adults in a way. What made you drift from the Jesus? Met people and talked and had conversations and just, I don't know, I just kind of naturally, very naturally and pretty quickly sort of fell away from it. Which sounds weird considering it was such a huge element of my psyche. In terms of what you were part of, Christian groups and that kind of stuff? I was, yeah. I was a youth group kid. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So, but I, but that was like a whole thing through my 20s is figuring out, because you got to figure out something to replace that with, you know. Yeah. And you chose movies? Kind of. I mean, I got really – actually, what really helped me out was really getting into Young, into reading Young. Carl Young? Carl Young. Yeah.

The big – The big kahuna. The big collective unconscious. Yes, the collective – The mandalas and Yes, the collective unconscious. The mandalas and the – Yeah, exactly. And just his kind of – well, the fact – I think it helps that his stuff feels slightly mystic, which also – Of course.

Which also can tend to draw some nut jobs to it, I think. But I feel like the fact that he takes mystical things very seriously – the fact that he – it let me say, OK, I wasn't insane. This it's just this thing that I was projecting as a structure on. Sure. A being outside of myself is actually a psychic structure within myself. And also, I think as it's almost genetic, it's almost like psychologically genetic to want to transfer you know meaning like to feel some to feel a part of something bigger than yourself yeah to give your life definition completely because you know it's it's a hell of a burden to carry if you don't have any of that i mean

mind changes week to week kind of like it's not a yeah but but yeah i think young is is is good for that kind of stuff like you know you have this great sort of nebulous connection to something. Yeah. You know, and but between him and Joseph Campbell, you can kind of piece it together. of, okay, the ego and the subconscious and the sense of self. And I don't know. It's not like I'm a devoted Jungian or something, but it really helped me kind of like – it was like a halfway house. Yeah. I'll be transparent. At a formative time.

Did you read that? Did you read Synchronicity? Yeah, I read Synchronicity. Well, how'd that go for you? I mean, it's great. It's fascinating. I think that – I mean, I went back. I read a bunch of his collected works.

Yeah. And I read like Ion was one that really helped me out a lot because that talks about Christian imagery and kind of the relationship of the fish. Anyway, and I think it's interesting. I think people, yeah, people can mistake him for being a mystic. And the reality is he just, like he has a book about UFOs. Yeah. taking it very seriously yeah but what he's taking seriously is the fact that people are having these experiences that feel very real in these perceptions and um what does that mean in terms of what does that

reflect inside their brains inside the psyche and in terms of the structure of it so anyway but yeah i i yeah doug synchronized yeah well people want to backload sense into things yeah which is why conspiracy theories are are popular because it's it's it's got its own dogma yeah and and it explains everything and it seems like uh special wisdom and and secret knowledge it's something i've been thinking a lot about yeah lately yeah creatively yeah yeah like yeah what are you gonna do with it i don't know it's it's it's tough because it's um it's such an inch and also in relation to my background you know having this kind of truly spiritual kind of like phase of my life like yeah it's fascinating to me kind of the the assigning assigning meaning to a structure

that um is interior but that you mistake as an exterior thing that to me is of the the assigning assigning meaning to a structure that um is interior but that you mistake as an exterior thing that to me is fascinating but also to have it piped into you yes i mean that's the other element of it is like you know this has been an exploitable part of the psyche since you know day one that grift has been going well now we have algorithms that are like exactly needles filled with heroin going into our spines. And I barely notice it. Yeah, yeah. No, it's terrifying.

It's like it slips in. No, it's insidious. But you're right. I like that you said that. I mean, it is something that has been there and has been exploited since day one. It's just you wonder what these new delivery devices are. It's not good. It's just, you wonder what these new delivery devices are. It's not good. It ain't good. But I find this stuff very interesting because that need to believe and then sort of realizing, like, I don't know if I took it to the next level of what you're

talking about is that it's something that we're reflecting back, that it's something within our own psyche that needs resolution. resolution well it's all interior and the fact that we're i don't know it's it's projection it's but that's the most powerful thing it's not you know it's i don't you don't believe in any of the the sort of the the magic i don't know i know well no there are people who i don't know we're in l.a there are people that take it seriously no but you know that like not just like like not just I'm not talking about like mind reading or or something that something that transcends logic or explanation. Because like even with synchronicity, even the idea is sort of like, yeah, this feels familiar, but that's just your brain reflecting on something within itself. I think that's what and and look, there are bits of Jung where he veers a little too close for my comfort.

To mysticism? Into mysticism. With synchronicity, with the concept of synchronicity. But what I think is that it's really just exactly what you're talking about. It's that we all have a structure to our psyche the same way that we all have a skeleton in our bodies. And there's a similar shape to it. And that makes a lot of sense. Sure.

How our brains work. They're all the same. Right. And also in your geographical environment is limited oh totally so like if you're sort of like why did i just run into that guy twice i'm like yeah well you only live in the same neighborhood there's my uh my cinematographer steve is like he's my he's been my best friend since we were like 18 yes he had a great experience once where he uh he was you're shooting in the hotel they're all sitting at the hotel bar in between shots yeah bar has a mirror behind it yeah and they're sitting there and they're shooting a period movie and they're sitting there and suddenly all of them see reflected in the mirror this ghostly form of a dude in a tuxedo walk across behind them

yeah and then they all turn and look and there's nobody there. And there's no exit on that side of the bar. There's no way for anybody to run. And everyone at the bar is like, we just saw a ghost that just happened. And if they had stopped there, if everyone had just went back and like they called lunch and went back to the shoot,

everyone would have walked away telling the story of, you know, we just saw a ghost and I know it. And I know it's crazy. I never believe it. But I, but Steve, because he's Steve, he went to the back of the bar and he looked and he realized there was like a one foot gap between the floor and the wall. And there was a mirrored back ceiling. And we, they had seen like a reflection of a reflection of reflection of someone on the lower level walking by oh okay and so he like and but it's just i don't know it's it's uh it's like of course steve is going to puncture that sure but if it were a different time and steve was in a different part of his life he could make it happen again and charge people to see it well this is the lesson i took away from is we can

monetize this that's what i told him and that's why i I think Walt Disney already did it. Yeah, that's true. Okay, so you made brick after undergrad? No, after graduate school. No, so I wrote brick right out of college after undergrad when I was 22, but then I basically spent my 20s working day jobs and failing to get- In Orange County? No, in LA. I was in LA. What part of Orange County did you grow up in? San Clemente, so the very southern tip.

Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So almost, which it has, or had then, almost more of a San Diego vibe. Right, well, that's, okay, so that's where you shot Brick. Yeah, that was at my high school, yeah. But you were up here, like, you went to graduate school at UCLA? No, I went to undergrad at USC. Oh, USC. Yeah, I did film school there.

You did film school undergrad at USC. I did, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's the one, right? Yeah, I guess film school there. You did film school undergrad at USC. I did, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's the one, right? Yeah, I guess so, yeah. I mean, it was good. I mean, look, I think the main benefit of it is just I met some great friends.

We all graduated and stuck around in LA and were broke and struggling together through our 20s and 30s. But were you part of believing in the mythology of USC?

I went to USC believing. I had read a book about Lucas, and I was just like, this is the golden mecca. Yeah. And of course, 18-year-old kid, you go there and you're just- You want to believe. Well, you also deeply want to have your illusion shattered and be a cynical, ah, this place. Yeah, yeah. So both of those things happened.

But I mean, looking back, it's a great program. It's a great school. But I think the real benefit of it is really my friends that I made there and the fact that we all stuck around in towns. That's the way, whether you knew it or not, that the whole business works. It's entirely it. That's the thing. I didn't know that. And I just kept burning bridges through my whole life. And all a sudden like i'm the asshole going out to cities by myself to talk

to strangers i didn't realize that that guy's assistant would grow to own the place that's that's the thing stick around and game yeah yeah you're the guy told to fuck off that time but uh but the other thing before i forget it about you know jungian ideas and and the ideas of the psyche and the ideas uh that are run against mysticism is that you know i i think ultimately you know you want to you want to have some control yeah yeah yeah right so i imagine the shift for you just by watching your movies and seeing what you focus on yeah that you know out of you know any sort of like you know real belief system that once that was undermined a bit that the need to control must have become pretty gnarly i guess i mean yeah it's it's a weird combination of the need to have some control in terms of imposing a structure on all this chaos but it's also um wanting to have

something that you give control over too you know whether it's the what do you find that where do you find that i mean i don't know man you got you got any you got anything but i can see i don't not anything that that holds more than a day. Cigar is good. Yeah, cigar is good. Yeah, exactly. But I mean, but the idea that you can create this illusion, that film in itself is sort of this weird magic thing. Music and film are as close to magic as we can get. Absolutely. Look, for me, it's yes in terms of the finished product and kind of its effects as whatever, use the A word, as art.

But for me, the bigger thing is just the structure in my life of having a group of people that I work with over and over and having a process now that I go through over and over. So these guys you've really been with for years, all of them? Yeah. I mean, a lot of them. I've, you know, like I said, Nathan, we've been making movies together since we were kids. Steve, I met when I was, you know, 17. But a lot of the folks that I work with, yeah, I've now worked with for years and years and

years. That's great. Yeah, it's good. You build like a family around you. And I think that- And a creative community that takes risks together. That's the hope is that that base of comfort lets you, you know. Shared vision.

I guess so. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. And also just going back to, you know, I don't know, going back to being a kid, just hanging out with your friends, making movies. To me, that's kind of still what it's about. Yeah. It's like it's, yeah, it's about the movies, but it's also about you want to be around people that you like and just be having a good time.

So you wrote Brick in high school? No, I read it right out of college. I wrote it when I was like 22. And what compelled you? I was really into the movie Miller's Crossing, the Coen Brothers movie. And through that, I got into reading Dashiell Hammett. And it was reading Hammett's books. I felt like I'd been punched in the stomach when I read Red okay it yeah it was like yeah i felt like i'd

been punched in the stomach when i read like red harvest i was like oh my god there's something raw and powerful here and that connected up with sort of my sort of emotional memories of high school which was still pretty fresh in my mind and it made sense kind of the notion of this sort of violent cruel very socially stratified world that and the fantasy of being kind of like the outsider who can push through all that which none of us actually could in in high school at least that was my experience kind of emotionally in high school but um uh so all of that kind of formed together into this weird thing that made sense to me of okay let's let's let's get kind of the raw power that i felt that

kind of weird fucked up masculinity of like the sam spade yeah not in the sam spade the continental op um and and let's put that in this high school setting you know it was interesting because the language is what it is it's the language of that genre yeah but but but it all worked really well yeah yeah yeah like it was it didn't seem like you weren't watching bugsy malone yeah yeah you know yeah which you could have been yeah i yeah i mean that's it's amazing to me that the young i mean those young actors like god we were also we were really young because i'm still friends with joe gronlevit like we're still tight but we were thinking you did two or what two movies yeah we did that, we were really young. Because I'm still friends with Joe Grunlewit. Like, we're still tight. But we were thinking back how young we were. You did two or what?

Two movies with him? Yeah, we did that and we did Looper. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He's great. But also, all of them were really good. But it was interesting because it didn't feel like a goof. That's good. Though that was the big, that's the hat trick of that movie.

Yeah. And how did you, were you aware of that all the way through? Oh, yeah, 100%. Yeah, yeah. And we were, I think the trick was we had, and this is something that would be hard to get if I made the movie today. Right. We had months and months and months of all of us just hanging out in LA together rehearsing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

So we rehearsed it to death. Oh, my God, really? Well, what we found with that material is because the words are so weird, it was almost like had you say that like you didn't write them yeah well you know yeah yeah psychotic about their knowledge they were fucking bizarre and like and so but what that meant was we had to we drilled them yeah literally drilled lines over and over had to get it to the point where like a piano player learning just sent just fingers moving automatically had to get it to the point where like a piano player learning, just fingers moving automatically, had to get it to that point with the words with the actors. And only when we got to that point could they throw them away and actually put meaning into

them because they weren't struggling with the artificial. Right. Well, you can definitely see that. Yeah. It was weird. But we had time to discover that through a bunch of rehearsals just because the actors were – because we were all just like kids with nothing else to do. So that's how it worked. And also it seems like you learned – like I felt you making cinematic decisions to see what your limits were.

Well, and I had also – I had had eight years planned that – I knew that movie like cold coming into it because I've been storyboarding it for eight years. I'd had it in my head just having it dying to come out. What storyboarding something you learned to do? I well, I had a copy of Scorsese on Scorsese that that book and he talks about storyboarding book and there are little drawings like sure. So I'm like, oh, this is the way it's done. So I started doing it. Oh, okay. And so that had nothing, oh, this is the way it's done. So I started doing it. Oh, okay. And so.

So that had nothing to do with school. What about script writing? I'll tell you though, most of what I know about script writing, my dad, who I mentioned, like I always wanted to make movies. When I was in high school, he went to one of these Robert McKee seminars. Okay. You know that dude? Sure. Yeah.

So he's, he went to one of the seminars. I was in high school. I was like a sophomore in high school, and he brought me along. And so I was like this little kid in this seminar. But I'll tell you, Matt, everything I know to this day about screenplay structure. I'm like a big structure guy. I really work off structure. I learned in that weekend that was like this huge, this massive thing for me.

So that was kind of- Interesting. Yeah. So your dad wanted to write movies. He did, man. Yeah, he did. And he was like writing a script of his own and he never finished it. Never finished one.

He never finished a script, yeah. You showed him. I win. That's the conclusion. You did it, man. I did it. Thanks, brother. That's funny.

But Brick got you in. Yeah, Brick, we got into Sundance, and then Focus picked it up at Sundance. But now you're a force, in a way. Well, no, the thing is- I worked with Nora, by the way. She played my girlfriend down there. I know. I was so excited when she was doing that. was like texting with her when she was doing that

was really she's fantastic man um so no i uh uh yes that that got me in but the reason the reason i'm still making movies today is because i had a really good i have a really good producer that i've been partnered with since brickick. Really? Ron Bergman. Same guy. He's amazing. Same dude. And he is the reason I got my second movie made. How'd that one do? Brothers Bloom.

Oh, it tanked. Nobody saw it. I didn't see it. I didn't even know it existed until today. I don't know why. Yeah, it just didn't work. I'm going to watch it. I'm really proud of it.

It's a really personal. And the experience of making it was this magical growing experience for me. It was amazing. But nobody went to see it. It's personal how? It's, I mean, you'll see when you see. I kind of just, I had all this stuff bottled up, and I just kind of tried to put everything that I love about the world into one movie.

And it was just this kind of overstuffed sort of. the world into one movie and it was just this kind of overstuffed sort of yeah um but i'm really but i i guess i worked with like adrian brody and yeah rachel vice and yeah breffalo and just um we kind of traveled around eastern europe like making this movie and it was just this magical kind of experience oh damn i gotta watch it nobody's yeah i was upset that i didn't i don't know why i didn't realize it till today because i watched uh i watched the other stuff no nobody nobody saw it. But that's the thing, coming out of making a second movie, it wasn't like it was a huge budget, but it wasn't nothing.

It was like a $17 million movie and it totally tanked. Yeah. Rom got Looper made, which I should have been basically in director's jail, and he figured out how to navigate this into getting Looper made. How did that? How did he do that he just i don't know if i knew i would i would i would know how to produce he he just kind of like well there's this guy jim stern who um helped finance who financed brothers balloon

yeah helped us out with looper but the reality is the way we got looper made is we got bruce willis cast bruce said yes and then we have a sci-fi movie and you got bruce will yeah with a gun on the poster and then we did the whole indie film thing of patching together the foreign financing and then finding a studio to kind of take up the slack how'd you make his face like that uh well joe spent like three hours in the makeup chair every morning as prosthetics. And so. It's not like, because that's what I thought. It felt like to do that kind of specific CGI would have been quite an ordeal.

Well, and also this is 2009, I think. This is like right before face stuff was like. So that's really just makeup. It's entirely. There's this genius guy, Kazu Hiro, who he did Gary Oldman's makeup in the Churchill movie. He's a genius. He created these things, and poor Joe spent hours in the chair every morning getting it done, and then couldn't fucking eat lunch. He had to eat through straws. Well, again, I watch that movie.

It's not necessarily the kind of movie that I go to. I not sure i keep saying that i'm not sure which movies i do like no i do i i like brick and i like and i watch i went because like i didn't know you know what um yeah what what you know where it would go but you know it doesn't it definitely has uh uh you know it's one of those movies where you're like it how's this gonna work yeah but Where it would go, but it definitely has... It's one of those movies where you're like, how is this going to work? Yeah. But I trusted you to find the film logic that would sustain it. Yeah, the tight wire.

Well, yeah, because that's the kind of movie you're looking for holes, but eventually you don't care. Well, I had that scene in the middle where I had Bruce kind of just say, stop looking, stop thinking about time travel. Yeah. It's kind of like, yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, but that wasn't what the movie was about ultimately because, you know, when you look at the machine, it was like, all right. That's not taking anyone back. Wait a minute. This is all fake. He just got into a hot water tank.

Yep. Yeah, yeah. just got into a hot water tank yep yeah yeah it kind of treats uh time travel like harry potter movies treats spells yeah it has to make emotional sense right but i think the trick of time travel movies is that they all do that i think even sure i think that i don't know if you've seen that movie primer that shane caruth movie that's probably the closest thing that actually tries to track the true logic of like a time travel loop. And even that, I think, um, fudges a bit,

but yeah. But sure. But the one thing that, that happened for me as a guy, you know, I, I'm older, I'm a little more sentimental,

I guess, but you know, what was effective in just the way my brain works is that, you know, when Levitt decides to do what he's going to do to save the future, you realize that like, well, I've already taken for, you know, I've already suspended my disbelief to realize, to believe that there are these alternate realities to existence. That there can be an existence where you live a whole other different life.

Right, right, right, right, right. Right. Which isn't really what the movie is about, but it's talked about a lot. Right, so that gave you- Parallel universe, right? Right, and the multiverse. Multiverse. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's sort of like-

Yeah, that's true, yeah. Right, so when Willis disappears, I was sort of like, well, why not? You know, like, now everything's okay. That kid's going to be all right. He's going to use his magic for good. I hope so. One hopes so. The weirdo. That was a good One hopes so. The weirdo.

That was a good twist. So he didn't realize that we were going to, he kind of knew that might've been the kid, but yeah, when he lifts everything up. Yeah. That kid, man. Oh my God. Intense kid.

And that kid would like, Pierce Gagnon, he was amazing. He was five years old when we shot it and he would sit down with Emily Blunt and do three page dialogue scenes all the way through. Oh, yeah? Because most kid actors, you're coaxing every line out.

There are a lot of them. You're coaxing every line out of them. Yeah. So it was the opposite. He would give you three amazing takes of a three-page scene and then turn back into a five-year-old, and you'd lose him. Really? It was fascinating, yeah. Well, there's all these Savanti kids around that can do that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Whether it's with a guitar or something. It's crazy on YouTube. Yeah, you're just like, oh my God. And then I imagine they put the guitar down

and they're just sort of like, I want some cereal. It's just like a real, any other musician really. Yeah. Yeah, except it's true. That's true. Now, I didn't realize

you directed these amazing Breaking Bad episodes. Oh, man, yeah. How great was that for you? I was a lucky son of a bitch, yeah. Because, like, for a guy that's so meticulous, it must have been just awesome. Well, also, it was heaven for me because writing is, you know, writing's not the fun part. Yeah. I don't know, not for me.

It's like I like having having written but to just come into this situation where there's brilliant scripts and great people and just i just get to show up and do the fun part and the scripts were just yeah man i i feel like uh that was a real education for me well the one the fly was insane that was fun that was really fun and like yeah i i and the fact that i got to just like do this concentrated, like almost like a little stage play with Brian. Yeah. And Aaron had to work so intensely with those two actors. It was like, and I had the challenge of like, okay, how do I keep this visually interesting in this space? It was like, I mean, that was film school. That was like, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's that. Yeah, because you had to, you know, you were doing something almost new. Completely. Yeah. It was its own completely self-contained thing.

Yeah, yeah. And it was like, but I just, I fucking loved it, man. I had so much fun. And you got to oversee Hank's death, which is crazy. I know, I know. I still can't believe they, yeah, that I got to do that. That whole desert scene was horrendous. That was, I mean.

To be around that acting? It was incredible, man. Brian Cranston is a force in nature. That dude's just incredible. He's amazing. He's so practical about it. His approach to acting is so kind of like utilitarian. Well, that's the thing.

There's no ramping into it. It's incredible seeing someone who is that good yeah who can just dial it in and turn it on like a switch i'm sure there's more to it but the fact that he keeps it keeps it behind the scenes and in his head it's absolutely i've no yeah it's absolutely incredible yeah yeah i mean i remember talking to him and he comes from a studio family yeah his dad was a i think a studio actor so there i i think that it makes sense it you know it was kind of the job was in his blood right that there's a job yeah he's got that kind of like old studio actor yeah he does but in the best way that like in in the

way that i just like i found really really incredible to just kind of watch watch him work yeah well it's amazing when you watch i watched a kiss of death last night with the victor mature I found really, really incredible to just kind of watch him work. Well, it's amazing when you watch – I watched Kiss of Death last night with Victor Mature and Richard Woodmark. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a crazy movie. Yeah. Woodmark's crazy. But all these guys were doing so many movies.

Woodmark's – like his look is just like – it's so terrifying. But also like very present. Yeah, absolutely. Oh, my God, yeah. And it's not just like – you don but also like very present yeah absolutely you know oh my god yeah you know and it's not just like you don't think like oh he's playing a crazy guy like he's

like reacting in real time yeah in a lot of ways it's pretty incredible the old studio guys is there do you have like a guy

from like that you're like god I wish I could have watched him work I wish I could have gone back and like oh and seen him like on set or something like I I'm always curious back and like. Oh, and seen him like on set or something?

Like I'm always curious about how all, like there was an affectation to a lot of it. Yeah. And I think like when you talk about Brick, like, you know, what process did they go through to get the patter going? Right. You had different expectations from it though,

but sometimes the emotions would land. Yeah. But there was definitely a way of staging and a way of pacing dialogue that was different. It's true. There's a different mode of kind of, but I mean, the best guys would still cut through that. Like Spencer Tracy, I think, was like somebody who lived a long time who would have been interesting to watch work. Fred McMurray, too, really. I love Fred McMurray.

too really i love fred mcmurray i would i would if i had a time if i if i had a time machine if i had my water tank and i could step into it i would go back and and i would love to work with fred mcmurray right it's burton lancaster too what's the fucking kirk douglas was an animal jesus man oh my god mitchum mitchum is mitchum's the greatest mitchum's the guy that if i could actually like summon him up right now i would love to just get one day working with him why not and he lived a long time he He just missed him kind of. I know. I know. I watched Friends of Eddie Coyle recently.

Oh, my God. What a wild movie. His late career stuff is fascinating, the places that he would go to. Have you seen Secret Ceremony? Oh. Is it Secret Ceremony with Mia Farrow? Mia Farrow. It's so good.

And Liz Taylor, actually. Really? Yeah, but it was made in the 60s. It's kind of set in London. It's a really messed up sexual dynamic between them. And Mitchum's playing this creepy, creepy dude. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she's leaning into just the...

It's fantastic. The weight of it man even like henry fonda dude i mean like yeah what is that yeah you just i can't yeah it's just amazing it really is yeah so again this isn't i'm gonna say it again but like you know i i i've enjoyed everything that i've engaged with that you've done but i I don't, I'm not a Star Wars guy. That's it. It would be funny if I was like, oh, me neither. Are you a Star Wars guy? I'm a huge Star Wars guy, yeah.

So the opportunity to do that movie was a big deal. It was the biggest deal for me. But how do you get that? So you did Looper. I did Looper and Kathy Kennedy saw it and called me in. And it was like a weird timing too because Disney had acquired all this. They had paid a lot of money. They had done it.

And they didn't have a plan, right? Really? Well, they had, I mean, JJ's movie was written. Yeah. And they were about to start shooting. Yeah. So that was basically the plan. Oh, so it was done.

We're going to do three. We're going to build off this. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, but it was always, the plan was always i would come in and do two and um you know do the second one and then kind of hand it off to the next director and um it was it was the best professional experience of my life man and how much freedom did you have over it i had freedom it was like it felt like any other one of our movies and were you approaching

it the same way that you do everything else like all right this is the genre how do i absolutely do something but the genre was the fact that the genre no it's not how do i do something new it's how do i tap into the essential power of this genre which to me means tapping into what star wars how star wars actually affected me when i was a kid yeah um thinking back to how the empire strikes back and when I was a kid. Yeah. Thinking back to how The Empire Strikes Back. And when I came in, Kathy said, we're looking for someone to do the empire of this series. Yeah. And I took that assignment very, very seriously. Not like we want to imitate empire.

Yeah. But like, you know. Well, that's what JJ did, right? With the first movie? I read. No, I love it. I mean, I love the first movie. I feel like he was doing the similar thing.

We're very different storytellers. Okay's a different way into it but but i uh for me it was thinking back to when i was a kid and i watched empire yeah how it was genuinely unsettling and terrifying yeah how the way that a good myth you talk about yeah getting to the joseph campbell thing i mean there's kind of the gloss on it which is the hero with a thousand faces yeah here on myth blah blah blah yeah the reality is the notion, what it's really about, you know, is the notion that fairy tales and myths are things that reflect the biggest transitions we go through in life. Yeah. Because of that, they should be kind of terrifying.

They should be scary things. Yeah. So thinking how Empire was that for me when I was a kid, I'm like, okay, let's take this seriously. Empire was that for me when I was a kid. I'm like, okay, let's take this seriously. Let's actually get into this and not just kind of think about it as kind of doing the Star Wars puppetry, but let's get into the roots of what this thing actually means to me. And so I was able to do – I mean, they really supported it. I was able to jump in and do that and all with the notion of making a great Star Wars movie.

I wasn't trying to like – But right but right in a deep way yeah by by uh by either subverting or moving away from expectation yeah or or by just or not being driven by expectations i guess the only expectation being i'm going to i'm gonna tap into everything that I think Star Wars is. It's like I'm going to put it all into this movie. Well, my girlfriend is a big fan of it. Oh, nice. And I know, and I've talked to her about it because it's not my world, that there is sort of like two camps.

Yeah, very much so, yeah. But it seems like the other camp is sort of like, we just want the same thing. Why can't it just be the Star Wars? Why did Luke throw away the lightsaber at the beginning i'm not gonna look i'm gonna be i'll be i'll be diplomatic but also true here which is growing up as a star wars fan i'm not gonna speak ill of anyone for what they like and don't like yeah that's the whole thing is arguing on the playground people like things

people dislike but deeper than that part of that yeah but deeper than that it's it's what we were talking about earlier yeah it's belief systems yeah well absolutely 100 yeah 100 i mean this i mean you've sort of you entered this realm yes of life defining mythology i know and you had control over it for a large swath of people who were like, this was it, man. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's retroactively terrifying. But it's also, I mean, I don't know. I think the only thing you can do is turn the gaze inward. And because for me, it was like, forget about the expectations of it being religion to people. For me, it was the basis of, it really was like the myth that I used as a child to transition into adulthood. It was that kind of bedrock. And so all I had to do was really honestly try and look inward and say, what does this thing mean to me? And how can I put how can I put that on the screen as honestly as possible? And that was, you know, that, that was kind of all you did that.

And the people that felt that received it that way. Yeah, they do really. And that's been the incredible thing is, is the years since it's come out talking to people who have connected with it on that level. It's, it's the sort of thing. I mean, if you tell stories for a living, you just dream about people having that connection with something that you made. Well, it feels like one of those movies that over time has garnered respect yeah and its own following yeah and and and people who realize what you were trying to do which was to go deeper with a franchise it could have been just hackneyed it's it's felt really really good just like and i i mean i've i don't knowneyed. It's felt really, really good. And I mean, I've, I don't know,

souped and that's the whole process, but also the whole process of it coming out and like the experience with the fans. It's been, I don't know, I just, it's cliche to say, I feel really blessed, you know. Yeah, you've had to do some real lightsabering. Well, also some growth, even that part of it's healthy.

What, the troll battles? Well, in a way, I mean, look, and this is in the context of being like you know uh like there's a lot of people are making star wars stuff now who are having or i knowing that i'm like you know a straight white dude basically but tony gilroy thinks it's the greatest thing of his career right now oh i i i've been saving that series up i haven't watched it i keep hearing it's incredible because i've been so busy lately i hear it's phenomenal yeah he he's like completely immersed in it oh my god and he's a genius yeah he's fantastic yeah yeah um but even dealing with the trolls even even even getting over the notion that if somebody on the internet doesn't like me

i'm doing something wrong that was a huge because before we all have to do that don't we yeah we do at some point it's like a rite of passage trial by fire when you're in your 40s you like not to succumb to the infantilism yeah social media trolling i know there's hard dude there's because they'll push your buttons man they know exactly how to push but have you gotten to the point where the button pushing doesn't doesn't work uh i don't know if it totally doesn't work yeah but i i can choose not to engage you have your coping yeah you're kind of like yeah i'm not numb like yeah you know i'll still uh i'll still feel a sting yeah but i i don't have to be like no no you there was a time if one person said something shitty about me i thought i have to fix this

you know what i mean i had well that's what what's interesting about the notion of the internet yeah that that there there's this weird thing that happens in our brain that you know you get one of those people and all of a sudden it's like the entire infrastructure yeah of the internet doesn't like you exactly and it's one fucking guy exactly or even 10 guys i'll tell you it's like i well it's amazing to me. I don't, it's, I get almost nearly zero negativity in my feed. And over the years, I mean, it's like, I don't know. I mean, over the past five years, I probably, I don't know how many people I've blocked, but it's like in the hundreds probably. Of course.

That's it. Yeah. It's gone. It's like, I don't know. They're done. Yeah. It's like, you'll notice that more from message boards. Yeah.

Is that, you know, it's harder to notice on Twitter that it's really a handful of people. That's the thing. It's not like this huge number. You're like, oh, that's the same guy. I think that's the same guy with those three accounts. You know? It's a learning curve. So your wife is like this Hollywood historian.

Yeah. She was a critic. When we first met, she was a critic for The Village Boys. Where'd you meet her? Well, we kind of knew each other on the internet, but then we first met when she was doing it. She has good internet. She has good internet. Internet can be good.

We first met when she moderated a Q&A for The Brothers Bloom for that movie. Oh, wow. Yeah, and then a few years later, she moved back to LA. She's from LA. She grew up here. Oh, yeah? She's living in New later she moved back to la she's from la she grew up here oh yeah she's living in new york and uh yeah and then that's now she's digging in to all the sordid business she's digging into the root of hollywood it's it's fascinating you it oh my god well it's it's amazing because it's um because we do very different things but our interests are overlap and so every you know she always has stuff to watch for her podcast.

And so it's like, I get to kind of live in film school. It's amazing. Oh, good. Yeah, it's pretty great. In a good way. It's great. Yeah, yeah.

What's this new thing you're doing with Natasha? Oh, Natasha. It's called Poker Face. It's kind of a, it's kind of a throw, we're finishing it up now. It's going to be January on Peacock. And it's-

Peacock? Peacock. Natasha Lyonne. Peacock. It'sock? Peacock. Natasha Lyonne. Peacock. It's kind of a throwback to the Case of the Week style, like Rockford Files, Columbo. Yeah. Oh, great. So it's not like one mystery over a whole season.

It's every single episode is a new setting and a new mystery that she solves. And it's, yeah, it's Natasha Lyonne kind of channeling Columbo. That's great. It's fun. It's super fun. I'm really proud of it it's it's uh colombo i remember there's a there's an episode of colombo that i remember which one the one where there's a murder by a pool oh with ice yeah with the ice and that has my favorite ending i'm not sure i remember the ending it's um it's just they it's like a thing where he's figured out that like the chiming clock would have been there on the phone call.

But they do it without any dialogue. And Columbo just holds up a finger and listens. And the chiming clock starts going. And you see in the guy's eyes that he's fucked. And Columbo goes like this. And then it just freeze frames and goes to crazy. It's so elegant and so good. And I've just spoiled it for anyone who's listening.

You can spoil things that are 50 years old. Yeah, I guess I'm allowed. But yeah, but I remember as a kid, like the ice, of course, like it's not chlorine. That moment he goes, there's no chlorine in here. There's no chlorine, it's so good. It's crazy, right? Oh, it's so good. I love the one, and he poured in a storm with Donald Pleasance, which is him as the wine salesman.

Like the wine affectionate. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And they work it out so Columbo gets him to basically bust himself because he can't help himself by spitting out wine that's gone bad. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But Donald Pleasence is just so good.

All these TV, all these characters get to come in and do it. Oh, just remember there's a water turn. What was the water turn in, well it wasn't the same in Chinatown. Oh, yeah, yeah. Salt water in the lungs. Salt water. I got water. He drowned. I got water out of him. Oh, what? Right, but then

he drowned him in the tide pool in the backyard. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Salt water, bad for the grass. Bad for the grass. That's it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Good talking to you, man. This was a pleasure, man. Thank you so much. I'm excited about, I'm now going to watch your lost movie.

Yeah, let me know what you think. Yeah, and I'm excited to see this detective thing. I might have to, I would have to do a lot of background viewing to really fully assess the Star Wars movie properly. Don't sweat it. You could. Watch Brothers Book. You'll be fine. There you go.

Smart guy. You can watch Glass Onion on Netflix starting this Friday. His detective series with Natasha Lyonne. Poker Face premieres next month on Peacock. Hang out for a minute, will ya? Can you just hang out? Please hang out, will ya? You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost

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That's C-O-Z-E-Y. And start customizing your furniture. People, if you want to submit a question for an upcoming episode of Ask Mark Anything, we've got the link in the episode description. Send me a question and sign up for the full to hear the answers. If you're already a WTF Plus subscriber, don't forget about the referral code we sent you. Give that out to as many people as you want, and they get a free month of WTF Plus when they sign up. This week on The Full Marin, we're continuing our look back at morning sedition with our series Good Morning Geniuses, and I have a reunion with our old board op, Chris Lopresto.

Mostly I remember you in, I don't know if it was a mild state of anger and panic, or it was just your style of board opting, but it always seemed to be we always seem to be on the edge of something well i mean you weren't exactly the easiest of hosts that i've ever encountered yeah you were like the tasmanian devil every morning you would like yeah pop into the studio like the kool-Aid man with your Dunkin' Donuts in one hand, your stool and papers in the other and be like, what the fuck? What are you doing?

And I just had to try to hold it all together. And like all your other producers, they would all leave. And the door would shut and I'm in the room with you, a caged animal. And I was just trying to, you know, survive. Yeah. So that was it. You were like just managing my insanity. Sign up for WTF Plus at the link in the episode description or go to WTFpod.com and click

on WTF Plus. On Thursday's show, we've got Scott Cooper, director of Crazy Heart, Black Mass, and the new film, The Pale Blue Eyes. Now I'm stuck in this open G, and I rolled and I tumbled into it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Boomer lives. Monkey La Fonda. Cat angels everywhere.