WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1394 - Scott Cooper

Episode Date: December 22, 2022

Writer-director Scott Cooper says the best thing to came out of his acting career was the friendship he struck up with Robert Duvall. At Robert’s suggestion, Scott started writing his own films, including one he sent to Jeff Bridges. And because Jeff Bridges agreed to make the film, Scott began his career as a director. Scott and Marc talk about that film, Crazy Heart, as well as Out of the Furnace, Black Mass, Hostiles, Antlers, and Scott’s latest mystery film about Edgar Allan Poe, The Pale Blue Eye. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. Lock the gates! All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers, what the fuck buddies? What the fuckadelics? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron.

This is my podcast, WTF. Welcome to it. We're going at it a long time now, over 12 years, it seems. Is that possible? Yes. It's Christmas week. I guess travel is going to be impossible for anybody going anywhere in the middle of the country and probably anywhere in general, because generally a storm that's supposed to happen like this will cripple the entire air travel ecosystem. I don't know what's going to happen. I'm going to go. I'm supposed to go spend some time with my dad. This might be the last holiday season where he remembers me.

That's heavy. Kit was supposed to fly back to Chicago to see her people. I don't know if that's going to happen because of this fucking storm. It's disappointing, but look, it's a harsh thing. Climate change. And whenever they call something a bomb cyclone, all of a sudden you start hearing names for things you never heard for. This thing is the horrendous wind. What?

Yeah, they upgraded it to horrendous. The bomb cyclone. Maybe that's a weather term that's been used before. I was wondering how long it would take for planes to start dropping out of the air because of climate-related problems. This might be it. A bomb cyclone. Wait, have you ever heard one of those before? No, they had to create a new name. It's probably not true.

I know there's probably some meteorologists out there or people who study weather as a pastime that are like, no, man, no. The bomb cyclone has been around. There's only been like two of them. And this is this is one. I don't know, man. But good luck with the traveling. If you get stuck, I hope you're OK. Maybe you should start building your brain around that. The possibility of disappointment in terms of travel. But maybe you're one of those people that's relieved. It's like, oh, my God, we might not have to go.

What a blessing. What a Christmas blessing this is. Hey, look, I have Scott Cooper on the show today. Scott Cooper is a writer, director, actor. He made the films Crazy Heart with Jeff Bridges, Black Mass with Johnny Depp, Out of the Furnace and Hostiles, both with Christian Bale. He's got a new movie out also with Christian Bale. It's called The Pale Blue Eye.

And it's kind of a great gothic whodunit that uses Edgar Allan Poe as a character. It's one of those historical kind of mystery horror things that uses a real guy. And the guy who plays Poe is great. And Christian Bale's the other guy. And he's Christian Bale. He's always going to be pretty fucking good.

But I met this guy in an airplane. It was one of those situations. It was funny. So I'm sitting next to this guy. And I don't recognize him, but he's reading Willie Nelson's autobiography. It's got a big picture of Willie on the front cover it's a hardback and all I know is every time I look over at that guy maybe he was across the aisle from me and I had an empty seat next to me for some odd reason and I kept looking over there and

Willie was looking right at me as one of those pictures and looking right at me from the book and this guy's reading his book. He's pretty earnest. He's listening to music. Seems like a serious dude. And then not unlike many air travel experiences, I don't know why this happens, but I can sit next to somebody

and not say a word to them for five hours of flying. And then as soon as we're descending into LA, it's sort of like, so where are you from here? And then the conversation starts. It was one of those situations where, you know, he, in my recollection, he came over to the seat next to me. We talked for a while. He said, you know, he knew who I was and he was the director. He told me he directed Black Mass. I was like, holy fuck, you're a real guy. You're a real director. You're the real thing, man. That's some serious shit. And then crazy hard, I'm like, damn. So I was

happy to talk to him. and i knew he was working on a new movie at that time i think it was hostiles which is also a great movie guy's a good director great director and you know i invited him on the show way back then and we've been sort of in touch here and there through texting and finally it happened uh and it was good he's a serious guy serious director um does the thing it's a very interesting shift from that first movie, Crazy Heart, into all of these other darker movies. He did that movie Antlers, which is a horror movie. And he uses that guy Rory all the time, that guy I interviewed, Rory Cochran. The first time I saw that guy or noticed him was in Black Mass.

He played one of Whitey Bulger's hit guys, one of his henchmen. And it was so fucking deep and creepy. I just couldn't believe it. You know, Jesse Plemons was in that too. He gets great performances out of people. But anyways, he's here on the show. So look, I went back to the heart doctor because I don't know if I told you, but the last time I was there, I went, I had all the tests, stress tests, but then I felt like I needed more. So I had another appointment with the guy.

I said, I want an angiogram. He's like, why? You don't need one. I'm like, I just, I think I need one. I'm talking to many people my age who have these heart problems. He's like, yeah, but we checked you out. I'm like, can I just get one? Why can't I pay for it? Just give me an angiogram. I want to, I want to see, I want to know want to know what's in my pipes. He's like, you don't need an angiogram. Let's do this nuclear stress test. I'm like, what does that do? And he's like, well, it's like a stress test except we shoot you up with a radioactive thing and we take images before and after you exercise and that'll determine your blood flow and whether or not it's restricted and we should be concerned. It's one step shy of an angiogram and a lot cheaper.

I'm like, great, let's do that. So I went and did that. So I don't know how that turned out. That was exciting. So I'm just, my veins are lit up with radioactivity right now. I just look, man, I don't want to be surprised from the inside. That's all. There's not, you don't have much control over being surprised from the outside.

You know, a car accident, a from the outside you know a car accident a tree falls on you a random shooter i mean you don't who the hell knows you know once you're out in the world or even in your house a beam could fall on you you could get an infection uh from a tick whatever but i don't want to be surprised from the inside if I can avoid it. So there's a certain vigilance that has to go on in terms of making sure you're healthy and doing what you need to be healthy. So you get a heads up, heads up, cancer on the way, heads up, dementia on the way, heads up, your valves are all stuffed up. We got to unstuff them. Minimize being surprised from the inside. That's my new motto as I go.

Minimize the possibility of being surprised from the inside. Again, outside, you just have to be vigilant, be careful, look both ways, run if you have to. But the inside's tricky. It's tricky, I tell you. But the inside's tricky. It's tricky, I tell ya. Listen, this guy's a heavy guy, this Scott Cooper. Makes heavy movies.

He's the real deal. Gets out there into the West and does the thing like the old guys. And it was great talking to him. His movie, The Pale Blue Eye, premieres on Netflix tomorrow, December 23rd. And this is me talking to Scott Cooper. It's hockey season, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So, no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats.

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Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed,

how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. I've seen the almonds a couple of times. You did? In fact. Before Greg died?

In fact, Greg Allman came to the premiere of Crazy Heart. Did he? And I'll never forget it. He approached me after and he said, that hit me real good. Oh, yeah? Oh, yeah. A lot of musicians had seen themselves in Jeff Bridges. What surprised me about Greg Allman when I saw him shortly before he died is that he is tiny. Yes.

Yeah. Like when I've seen Robert Plant, too, I saw them both oddly. Well, I don't know where I saw Plant, but I saw Greg Allman. I was at the counter at the Bowery Hotel. Yep. And he walked behind me, and I'm like a ghost. Who, Greg Allman? Yeah, shortly before he passed.

But he was tiny. Tiny guy. Big heart. Great style. Hey, man, that last solo album, those little country blues. Oh, my God. The one that T-Bone produced. Well, that's why I was in the studio with him.

With T-Bone? Yeah. When you were thinking about Crazy Heart? No, we were finishing Crazy Heart. Or we hadn't yet, I think we hadn't yet recorded the soundtrack. He was finishing Greg Allman. That one? He knew, yes, he knew that I was a big Allman Brothers fan. Did he know Greg was on his way out?

No. And he invited me down. That's why Greg came, actually, now that I think about it, no. So the movie was finished because Greg then came to the premiere of Crazy Heart, which is where I was so touched with what he said afterwards. What other musician came to Crazy Heart? Dwight Yoakam was there. That makes sense.

I think Willie Nelson wrote a nice piece about the film. Really? I think Jackson Brown was there. I think... this was here yeah that'll make sense maybe don henley don henley you guys pals no but uh he seems difficult uh is that right well no he seemed lovely to me really loved the film uh i think a lot of people saw themselves in bad blake and jeff's character for someone who had either fallen on hard times or people who carry their own amps to shows and bowling alleys.

Maybe not. I can't imagine Don Henley played in a bowling alley or Jackson Brown. Well, I think they have similar... You come up however you come up. There's an equivalent to it. But that was a guy on the other side of it at the bowling alley. He wasn't coming up. He was not, but that was a guy on the other side of it at the bowling alley.

It wasn't like, he wasn't coming up, he was going down. No, he was going down and we opened the film with a man who's just driven, I don't know, 300, 400 miles, has taken a piss in an empty milk jug. Yeah. Pours that out at a bowling alley. It's like similar to like, I think Duvall was in it too, wasn't he, for a minute? Duvall was in it. He produced it

did he i actually spoke to him on the way over here you did i speak to him almost every day what what do you talk about with robert uh today we talked about world cup he loves soccer his wife is argentinian uh-huh we talked about he's in virginia he's in virginia yeah where you come from yep where i'm from i was married on his married on his farm. Yeah. His horse farm? Yep. Uh-huh. Which dates back to, I think, 1743, surveyed by George Washington. It's everything you might imagine. It's stunning. And how do you know him?

We did a film together. We've made, as actors, we've made three films. The first film we made together was a Warner Brothers epic Civil War film called Gods and Generals in which he played Robert E. Lee. And I played one of a young adjutant. And I had a big scene with him that I think was cut for the film. And I recall that, of course, I and every other actor was nervous when you're in the company of maybe the greatest American screen actor who ever lived lived marlon brando thought that he was the greatest screen actor who ever lived yeah um he has a letter handwritten letter at home from brando on his deathbed saying that very thing that he did not want to uh frame but his wife didn't put it up in a far corner of a library so i had this big scene with duval of course i was, I was incredibly nervous. I had to... How is he as a guy on set?

Intimidating. You're talking about a man who's made 100 films and some of the greatest films ever made. No doubt. And then we had our scene. Didn't say anything to me. Later, his assistant came and knocked on my... I think I was in a honey wagon and my trailer was so small

I could barely turn around. The quarter trailer? Yeah, or an eighth of a trailer. And he said, Mr. Duvall would like to take you to dinner. And I thought, oh, shit. Okay, well, this very well could be the end of my acting career as it's starting to. Why would he take a whole dinner to do that? Well, who knows?

He also knew that I was from Virginia. Oh, okay. And he said to me, he said, I really like the way you work. I think you're a very good actor, which is the best thing you could ever take from Robert Duvall. Sure. And we struck up a friendship that to this day has not ceased. And he's really, he's almost like a second father to me. Like I said, I speak to him three or four times a week.

How often do you talk to your real dad? Much less, believe it or not. I believe it. Yeah. And Bobby, as he likes to be called, Duvall, he was the first person to read my screenplay for Crazy Heart because I was auditioning for a lot of films and becoming a bridesmaid or not getting them.

And he said, you know what? You should do what I did before I wrote and directed The Apostle. He said, why don't you write something? He was the guy who said that? And I was in, I happened to be at that point really into Merle Haggard, who's the poet laureate of country music. Yeah, of course. Listened to a lot of Merle Haggard,

a lot of Waylon Jennings, a lot of Townes Van Sant. Townes is sad. Yeah. And I thought, well, why don't I make an amalgamation of all these characters? A little bit of Chris Christopherson as well. And out of that, based on Thomas Cobb's novel,

came Crazy Heart. And I was writing it for Jeff Bridges, even though nobody knew. I mean, Jeff didn't know me. So that's based on a book. It is, yeah. I mean, generally, if I base something on a book,

there's a seed of something that I like. Take some liberties. Yeah, you have to be very clear with the author that there's a big difference between a film and a movie. Well, you know, what's interesting with Duvall and that connection everything else is that you know tender mercies is a is in the same area oh boy what a performance that is but oh dude it's so good in that opening where he's just on the floor and how about the only time he sings in the movie he turns his back to the camera

yeah i mean that takes balls but going back you know you come from virginia but was it always the like where'd you grow up exactly yeah i grew up in this small town called abingdon virginia which is abington southwestern part of of the state that um is is really kind of the if there is such a thing artistic crown jewel of virginia it's in what way state State theater of Virginia. Uh-huh. A lot of great musicians. Is there pottery there? There seems to be a lot of pottery around the South.

Everywhere I go, you get sea groves. A lot of arts, crafts, pottery. Asheville. Of course, it's very near Asheville. And a lot of great bluegrass musicians. I grew up really listening to a lot of bluegrass, I think. Like who? Well, the first song I ever heard that I can remember is Little Maggie by Ralph Stanley.

Ralph, whom my family knew a bit. Was your family in the arts? Well, my father taught English literature. My grandmother. Oh, he did? As well, yeah. At where? Well, he taught at a boarding school in Charlottesville.

He was taught himself by the great William Faulkner at the University of Virginia. At Oxford? No, at the University of Virginia in Charlottesville. Not in Mississippi? No, he taught, Faulkner taught for a couple of years at UVA. Before he became, or like at what point in his career? No, no, no. He was, he'd won the Nobel.

Oh, so he was like a guy, a visiting professor. That's right. For a couple of years. And he taught, he- Yeah, taught, no. He had won the Nobel. Oh, so he was like a guy, a visiting professor. That's right. For a couple of years. And he taught my father. Did your father say like, all right, so let's go through the sound and the fury page by page. Exactly. I want an explanation. Well, I don't know that he did that.

But there are some recordings of Faulkner teaching these classes that the University of Virginia have put online. And my father claims that he can hear himself asking a question, not that question, but something. Who knows if that's true? The Quentin section of The Sound and the Fury is a brain bender. Yes. So yeah, that really, growing up at a place kind of rich in tradition, musical tradition, literature.

Your Faulkner guy? Oh, literature. Your Faulkner guy? Oh, yeah. And I've been asked actually to adapt a couple of Faulkner's novels. Like which one? Light in August. Really? Sanctuary, which is great. They did The Reavers, I think, with Steve McQueen.

Yes, that's right. I can't remember the other guy. S.L.A. Dying. So eventually, look, we're at a time now, I guess one could do it for limited television. Yachting up Patawka County. Yeah, but we're in a tough place, I'm not sure.

To do a Faulkner miniseries? Well, I'm not sure America- You could go through all of it. Wants to race out to the cinema. Sure. There's a whole mythology around the Yakna-Petoffa County. There was a scholar named,

what was his name? Clance Brooks, who his whole life was being a Faulkner scholar and kind of laid that shit out. Clance Brooks. Jesus. So, okay,

so you're coming up in, you know, a liberal, I'm assuming, or no? Yeah. Yeah, like education forward, creative thinking, good, all that stuff. Yeah, and when you, I think when you grow up in a- Your mom taught?

She did not. No, no. She was a homemaker. Okay. And I think when you grow up in a small southern town that's more arts oriented, like Abingdon is, like I said, the State Theater, Virginia, it's a great, great tradition. The arts are kind of in your blood, but it's not something, doing what I do as a film writer and film director is not something that kids aspire to from Southern Virginia, just because

no one from Southern Virginia really does that. But did you? Or were you more? No, I thought more about being an actor, which is why I then went to New York City. How old were you? I thought more about being an actor and and which is why I then went to New York City how old studied there, you know in my early 20s studied in Lee Strasberg. Oh, yeah He's cool

But when as when you were growing up and like, you know learning about things was that like a romantic idea? They if you were going to study it was going to be at least Rutherford. I'm going to do method Yes, because the actors that I most responded to, you know, had studied there. And who were they? Who were your guys? Of course, Duvall studied at Stella Adler. Right.

Of course, I wasn't thinking of Bobby in those terms. Who were you thinking about? Well, of course, in terms of utilizing some sort of method would, of course, been De Niro and Pacino. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, whether he studied there or not, I was really taken by Gene Hackman. Oh, the greatest. Hackman and Duvall are the greatest. Man.

Were they roommates? Who is it? They were roommates. Right, that's right. That's right. And good friends. And one day, quick story. Yeah.

On the set of Crazy Heart, shooting Jeff Bridges in a close-up. Right. That's right. That's right. And good friends. And one day, uh, quick story on the set of crazy heart shooting Jeff Bridges in a closeup. Yeah. Uh, we were lighting. Jeff wasn't on set. I was just there with my cinematographer. Uh, I hear this voice behind me. Yeah. Duvall here. Yeah. I turn around and backlit. I swear to God, was Gene Hackman. In Santa Fe? Because that's where he lives now. I know, I know, yeah. And I said, Mr. Hackman, no, he isn't here today, but I certainly will call him if you want to stick around. He's not far from here.

I said, no, just tell him Gene stopped by and just turned and was gone. That was it. That was my one experience with Gene Hackman, and I thought, Jesus. Bobby's great though. I mean, he, he, he still watches a lot of movies and he'll call me after seeing movies that people are putting up for Oscar contention and just rips them apart. How old is he? 92. Is he really? 92, but still. Hackman's got to be up there too. Yeah, I think he is. And, but, but still, uh, uh, Yeah, I think he is. But still really sharp and lucid and has very strong opinions. And I hope at 92 I'm living the life that Robert Duvall is.

So you go to New York, Strasburg, doing the method, the repetition, getting in. Yep. Sense memory. Yeah. I have a lot of sense memory to draw from. Sure. Which would come later. But do you have brothers, sisters?

I have a brother who was not in the arts. I had a younger sister who unfortunately passed when I was young. And those things really inform you as an artist. How old were you? I was four. And I distinctly remember... She was younger? She was seven.

Oh, she was seven. Coming home and lying on the sofa. Yeah. And my mom putting cold compress on her head and I was holding her hand. And then four days later, she was dead. Oh, my God. Yeah. In the house?

No, in the hospital. Oh. Died. She had at school contracted a rare form of meningitis meningitis right and uh that's terrible well and your brother's older he is oh but everyone was conscious oh boy we're more more than ever and you know that really informs uh your life um but like how how do you see that like in the work, how does it inform you as a person? You know, it's funny. I think it was Guillermo del Toro when I was telling him the story and he produced a film of mine and he's a really close pal and kind of mentor to me. Yeah. And when I told him the story about my parents losing my sister, he said, it all makes sense. I said, in what way? He said, well,

in your films, in most all of your films, a child dies. In Crazy Heart, a child doesn't die, but he's lost. Yeah. A child does die

in Out of the Furnace. Yeah. Whitey Bulger's child did die in this. That's right, but dies in a similar way. Hostiles. Yeah, hostiles.

You know, three children die in the opening moments of the film. Antlers, a child dies. And then, yeah, so I didn't think of that mark, and I thought, Jesus, man. I mean, instead of going to therapy, which I probably should have been in, I seemed to explore all that through my movies.

But you're not consciously haunted by it? It's kind of in there? Well, I certainly think about it uh really every day oh yeah every day well i think because i'm uh as a parent to two two girls um you know that's really the only thing i fear i don't fear not making another film i don't fear my movies not performing you know it's a loss of a child's the only thing that you can't quite control. And I now have a daughter who's a freshman in college. She's away. And, you know, so I'm probably more sensitive

to, you know, viral transmission, COVID, flu, all those sort of things, meningitis, than I otherwise would be because I generally live my life without fear. That's the only thing that- But the kids. Yeah. Yeah. I don't know how, I don't have them. And it's one of the reasons I don't.

No, no. That makes complete sense. I'm prone to panic. Well, that will incite panic, you know, every night that, you know- Yeah. You don't know where they are. You fall asleep. you have no idea. Certainly one, my daughter's in college up north. How often do you talk to her? Oh, we're in constant contact.

We're incredibly close. You're texting every day? Texting, calling. So that's good. You got to have that. Yeah, but I think about that in terms of parenting, because my parents did not, even having lost my sister, they, you know, I think my wife and I are like a lot of parents of this generation who, speaking just for us, who were kind of helicopter parents.

Yeah. Or lawnmower parents kind of clearing the path for them. Yeah. My parents were, I guess, kind of like submarine parents. They were lurking, but surface when needed. Out past dark. But who's to say that? I mean, it's like, you did all right.

You know what I mean? I think the biggest, and I don't have kids, but it seems like you've got to let them be who they are one way or the other. And I think that it's hard. It is. them be who they are one way or the other. And I think that it's hard. It is. I hope that we, we haven't stifled them in any, in any way by, you know, trying to, to maintain this kind of closeness with them. I hope we haven't. They're really lovely young, young women who are incredibly smart and passionate and, and understanding, uh, you know, faced with the world that our

generations have left them with a lot of issues they got to deal with. Sure. But in the aftermath of your sister passing, I mean, like, did your parents, you know, recover from, like, sometimes when I hear those stories, it's something that hangs heavy forever. I think one of my uncles told me that my father didn't get out of bed for a month. A month, but that's all right.

I'm not sure. That makes sense. Yeah. But it wasn't like something was permanently removed from the family. No, quite the opposite. It was a very tightly knit Virginia family. But look, then my parents, of course, were incredibly devoted to my brother and me and and but i i do think that probably in growing up in in in abingdon kind of really pushed me towards the humanities and

and the arts and and how do you express whatever the grief that you're living through the pain because we're all living with pain and uncertainty and ptsd grief sure yeah No, I talk about it a lot in the standup now. But so you brought it. Look, you're very, very well aware of that. Yeah. What that's dealing with. Fragility of life and loss. Yes. But the thing that I keep coming around to with it is that it's like, it's completely common.

Nothing unusual. There's nothing unusual about tragedy. No. No. And I explore tragedy in almost every film of mine in one way or another. Yeah. You're not making comedies. No. No.

Mark, I'm not. But so, okay, so you do the Shroudsburg thing and then what? What's your break? How do you get traction? Well, then I realized that New York City is a hard place to live in if you have no money. And I thought, well, and the weather's tough. It was just a hard place in the mid-90s. Yeah, I love New York City.

It's one of my favorite places. It's great. And I had some friends who were doing quite well who were living out here. Adrian Brody, who's a good friend of mine, who's a really wonderful actor. Yeah. At the time, the young actor,

Skeet Ulrich was like... Skeet. Yep. So I moved out here. We all kind of powed around, lived together. And I think that

change of scenery helped, even though I still was an actor who was struggling and ultimately an actor with an unremarkable career. Yeah. Then I meet Duvall. But what were you doing?

You're doing, like, you're getting parts here and there? Yeah. Yeah. Not great parts, but parts just to survive. And the fact is, you know, you're being offered things that, and I've forgotten what they are, that I probably should have done, but I thought, no, no, De Niro wouldn't do that. Oh, you were doing that? Oh, yeah, like an asshole.

But you came out here, you got management, you got agent, you know, but I thought, no, no, De Niro wouldn't do that. Oh, you were doing that? Oh, yeah. Like an asshole. But so, but you came out here, you got management, you got agent, you know, you had friends, you were running around with a group of guys. Had a very good agent who's, uh, who, who, who, who died, uh, uh, far too young. Yeah. Lady JJ Harris at UTA. She was great. And, um, but then that working with Duvall, we did three films. We did a Western together with Walter Hill called Broken Trail, which was a great experience working with Bobby Duvall every day and learning a lot from Walter. Walter's like, he's the guy, man. I've talked to that guy. Love Walter. And I was kind of shadowing Walter because I knew at that point that I wanted to direct

and I learned a great deal of Walter about economy, about camera setup. And about like actors doing their job. Exactly. I mean, Walter is one of our great filmmakers. I know. He was the guy when I talked to him, I'm like, you know, well, how do you direct actors? He's like, I hired them to do it. Yes.

It's not my job to. I approach directing actors differently. Yeah. But he is great in terms of casting. I mean, I don't know that he ever gave Robert Duvall direction. Right. He knew why he hired people. Exactly.

So that, and then I did a nice little film with Bill Murray that Duvall asked me to do called Get Low. And then after that, I stopped working because I'd made Crazy Heart. And I got to tell you, Mark, when you're on this side of the camera, the camera facing the actor, and I'm behind the camera, and you're watching Jeff Bridges or Robert Duvall or Colin Farrell or Maggie Gyllenhaal. Christian Bale.

Christian Bale, Johnny Depp, Casey Affleck, Willem Dafoe, Sam Shepard. You know very quickly that you should stay on this side of the camera. So that's interesting, though. But outside of Duvall suggesting it, because it took Duvall forever to direct and write. I mean, The Apostle, he must have been in his 70s. He had directed some documentaries that are quite, quite good before that. He's a real filmmaker, Duvall. Oh, no, no.

I know. But it's just interesting because you're young. Yes. And did he sense that you were not satisfied with acting? Were you not satisfied with acting? Or were you? You know, it's because you get, if you, let's say, if you're boyishly handsome or whatever, you get offered a certain kind of part.

And I wanted to play the parts that De Niro was playing and that Pacino and Duvall and Hackman. But ultimately, like, it seems... Those sort of things. Right, I get it. But ultimately, you know, if you're going to decide to direct, I mean, it seems like... Look, there's something fundamentally, unless you're a fucking genius,

there's, you know, for me, there's something fundamentally unsatisfying about acting. Yes. So, you know, how do you find the art? How do you find the satisfaction of doing, you know, how do you find the art, how do you find the satisfaction of doing, you know, bits and pieces three minutes at a time

sitting in a trailer 12 hours? How do you feel rewarded? Right. It's not like you're doing Death of a Salesman under Mike Nichols. Well, being in a theater,

to me, that makes sense. I get that. Oh, absolutely. But, you know, film acting and TV acting when you're a creative person. A lot of sitting around.

And also just sort of like, you're just a piece. That's right. What are you really doing? And Duvall said to me that very thing. He said, if you love cinema, because we talked about movies all the time, performances offset. And he said, if you love cinema, he said, then you should be a film writer and a film director. He said, because that's your medium. He medium right acting is the mediums in the stage but you know discovering you know while you're watching actors that you know you're in the right place i i mean i get that but it also takes a

certain you know lynn my uh my my partner who passed away she you know she had a great filmmaker she was and she had a great sensibility about actors i mean there's great with actors yes that's what i mean yeah i mean she you know she knew, like, you guys got to know when a take lands. That's a very specific thing. You know, and that's the whole gift of it. Yes, and you don't stop until you get that. That's right. That you're envisioning.

So how do you, like, is it, how do you, was it Duvall that gave you, uh, entree into relationships with these actors? Cause it seems that, you know, either they took a shine to you or somebody said, you're the guy. Well, I'll tell you, uh, a lot of it, Mark is luck. Uh, so I write this screenplay for crazy heart. I send it to Robert Duvall and he says, wow, this is really good. Uh, he said He said, whom do you see as bad Blake? I said, well, I wrote it for Jeff Bridges. Yeah. Do you know Jeff?

I said, no. I said, do you know him? He said, well, you know, I've met him. They know of each other. Of course. He said, why don't you write Jeff an impassioned letter, which I did. Yeah. I sent it off.

I didn't hear a thing for a year. A year? A year? A year. And in the interim, I was reading, just in terms of educating myself, lots of interviews with directors whom I love. And I was happy to read a series of interviews with the Coen brothers. And the Coens said that when they sent him The Big Lebowski, it took Jeff about a year to read it.

So you were willing to wait, though? I was getting close. Were you doing other stuff? No. And I had, you know, a young baby. Yeah. Because I believed in screenplay. I believed in my ability to tell the story.

Because in the interim, I was touring around a little bit with Merle Haggard, spending time with him on The Chief, his bus, just getting a sense of how he moved, how he talked, how he sang, how he disturbs the molecules of a room. A year later, I hear from Duvall that Jeff loved the script and wanted to meet.

I also, I said to Bobby, I said, the two things I need to make this film, one is Jeff Bridges, and the other is T-Bone Burnett. Uh-huh. Neither of whom I know. Yeah. I sent T-Bone the script.

T-Bone asked me to come in for a meeting. I walk into T-Bone's house and there's a cutout. Yeah. Of Ralph Stanley. The bluegrass musician. Bluegrass guy, yeah. From my neck of the woods. Yeah, yeah.

And T-Bone and I, from that point on were uh and have maintained a great friendship he's great guy he wanted to do this yeah uh he was probably also also instrumental in in getting jeff because they go way back uh-huh so then i go up to to santa barbara to meet jeff and um we talk about the world we talk about the screenplay we talk about the world. We talk about the screenplay. We talk about how I intend to shoot the film. I said, but Jeff, I got to be honest. I've never directed not only a film. I've never directed a television show, a commercial, not even a high school play, brother.

And he said, you know what? I love first time directors because they don't have bad habits. I'm in. Okay. Wow. And Mark, that is a life bad habits. Yeah. I'm in. Okay. Wow. And Mark, that is a life-changing moment. Yeah. Jeff Bridges changed my life.

Yeah. And I certainly would not be at WTF, baby, if not for Jeff Bridges. And also, what a generous actor in a way. Oh, the most generous. And just so good in everything and always has been. He's a national treasure. Just great.

Yeah. He's one of treasure. Just great. Yeah. He's one of the finest actors America has ever produced. Great. Great screen actor. So you build that out and you do that movie. But it's just such an interesting thing that that was your first movie. Like, you know, the seed of it was really what? of it was really what that well the the seat of it was a man who had reached the heights was now in the trough and what why was that appealing to you well

because I think as a film or yeah just just in terms of artistic expression how yeah how you know life life and also artistic life are nothing but peaks and valleys. It's interesting though, because it was a small movie and in the sense of like, you know, it was intimate. Yeah. Very quiet. Yeah. And, uh, and you know, you, you did something that you could handle and control. Oh, it wasn't, yeah. I wasn't directing, uh, you know, a David Lean epic. Right. Or even any of your other movies.

No, of course. Oh no. I could never have directed these films that I've made since then. But it's just interesting to me that this movie, which was a kind of like a human story, very empathetic with some... It's not a happy ending per se, but it's a reasonable ending. And it's an honest ending. An honest. That's right. So then you go from there to this Out of the Furnacing, which then you sort of establish

a tone of how you shoot for the rest of them. That's right. Yeah. And it's a human story, but it's a horrific human story. It is. And I will admit that after Crazy Heart, the success of Crazy Heart, critically and artistically. He won the Academy Awards, right? And T-Bone and Ryan Bingham and Maggie was nominated.

Yeah, so, you know, it's all downhill from there, right? No. Well, I mean, that's kind of what, you know, as a filmmaker, what you would like to do is kind of toil away in some semi-obscurity so that you can really hone your craft. Or do another one like that. Right, which is, I mean, look, for someone who was never offered anything as an actor to suddenly be offered every script in town, it was almost paralyzing. And I thought, well, then I need to go back and tell a story that feels like I'm telling a story of where America is at the time, telling a story of loss and grief

and pain that I know well, and it's going to be almost diametrically opposed to Crazy Heart, and that was out of the furnace with Christian Hill. But grief and pain, you know, in terms of the war vet and in terms of that relationship with the brothers. And loss of a parent, loss of a sibling, which I know well. And also living in, you know, a rough neck of the woods.

Western Pennsylvania, the town of Braddock, Pennsylvania, where the great John Fetterman, now U.S. Senator from Pennsylvania, was the mayor and who was very instrumental in my shooting there. Really?

And has become quite a good pal. Yeah. I've been supporting him, Christian Bale and I. Go, John. Yeah. Yeah, so that was a film that... I also love Chimino's the deer hunter sure okay

so there's the tone and i actually heard from chimino after he saw the film come on yeah he said you ripped off my lighting no he actually said to me how much he said that's you know it's a more intimate version of what i was telling he really loved the film but i guess that's really that is that part of pennsylvania is lit like that. It is. It's kind of great. As I was touring with Crazy Art doing all the press, I kept, I went to this town of Braddock,

Pennsylvania, which was, had fallen on incredibly hard times. And I took photos and I wrote in a pad all these locations that I then wrote the screenplay for. And I wrote it for Christian Bale. I didn't know Christian, but I thought this guy is the best screen actor of my generation.

Yeah. Has so much range and facility. And then I was able to cast him and Casey Affleck. How does that happen? How do you cast Christian Bale? Because now you've done like three four movies with him three movies yeah and he's my closest pal yeah i would say the success of crazy heart certainly and i'm guessing we haven't spoken about it i assume his agents maybe liked crazy but oh well

this is and it was a hard-hitting script out of the furnace um maybe my facility with with actors does he like to challenge himself? Christian? Yeah. Every time out. Yeah. Oh, yeah. That's his thing. I think Christian and I kind of see the world the same way,

which is if you're making safe choices, you're making the wrong choices, and we like to be on uncertain, shaky ground when we're going into an endeavor. And that's a tough film. That's a tough film emotionally, psychologically. So what do you go, like some, okay, from your first gig as a director, you're working with Jeff, who's worked with everybody. Yes.

Duvall, some real veterans. So when you say you do it differently than Walter in terms of how you approach an actor, so what is your approach now? So after you do Crazy Heart, which I imagine you learned on the job. No question. Because Bridges is such a sweetheart. Yes. He was open to my direction.

Yeah. Yeah, no question. As was Colin Farrell and Maggie. They were all incredibly supportive and generous of me as a first timer, I have to say. And being able to give a Uh, and, and, and being able to give a director a very specific note, not, not, uh, something that's abstract.

An actor. Yeah. Yeah. Give an actor a specific note. Give an actor a very specific note and, and something that you think, uh, might, uh, unlock something, you know, because when you come to a set, as Duvall always said to me, he said, whatever you do, don't rehearse your actors. He said, it should be like a high wire. He says, because otherwise actors will be in their trailers or in their hotel rooms making choices of how the scene is going to play and you're going to get

poor performance. And you're going to have to get them out of their choices. Right. And he said, some of them are too entrenched. Right. So come to the set, be open to all possibilities, have no idea where the scene's going to go. Of course, it's... Yeah. And I spend a lot of time

with actors before we shoot, which I call investigative text work, where we go through every beat, every line, and if a line is unnecessary, we lose it. Yeah.

Because cinema, I think, is much better when it's unspoken. Sure. So you have Christian Bale, you have the great writer and actor Sam Shepard and Willem Dafoe and Woody Harrelson in that film, and of course, Casey Affleck and Zoe Saldana and Forrest Whitaker. And it's a big menacing environment too.

Yeah. And these are people that have all made great films and also one of the great American writers, Sam Shepard. So, you know, that was intimidating. In fact, my wife came to visit the set one day in Braddock, Pennsylvania, and she said, oh, no, I'm not coming back. She said, this is too intense for her. A lot of boy energy. Yeah, and she didn't quite want to be around. But how'd you wrangle all those guys? You mean in terms of how did I get them cast or how did I direct them? I mean, it's your second movie. I guess you're coming into it with a good- A little bit of momentum from Crazy Heart.

Right. But there's a lot of big actors there and a lot of heavy hitters and they just were ready to work, huh? Yes, the best. And I think they probably respected, again, I'm supposing, because we never really talk about those sort of things, my relationship with Duvall. Yeah. The performances in Crazy Heart. Did Duvall wrangle some other guys for you?

No, he didn't, but he read Out of the Furnace. Yeah, he liked it? Oh, he loved it, and would look at cuts. Yeah. That was produced by Ridley and Tony Scott, whom we lost while we were shooting that film. Oh, really? And Leo DiCaprio produced it.

So we had some really great producers. So you were like, there was a lot of people that wanted to be in the Scott Cooper business. Yes. Yeah. I suppose. If they all backed the film. Hey, man, you came out of the gate strong. Why not bet on that horse? Yes. Yeah. I guess. If they all backed the film. Hey man, you came out of the gate strong. Why not bet on that horse?

Yes. Yeah. I guess in a sense. And that again was a really tough film. But God, Mark, I've been so lucky that when you make a film, and I've made a few of them now, that people will come to you and say, that film changed my life. People who dealt with addiction right like in crazy heart sure alcoholism yeah overcame that yep uh people who i heard from

many soldiers who'd come back from iraq and afghanistan and say that you come home and there's no one there to help you no one there to support you yeah the pain that you're dealing with thank you for putting that on screen um many Americans for a western I made, Hostiles who saw their life I met you on a plane and I think it was after Black Mass that was a nice flight we ended up talking like the last hour

you finally talked to me I was watching you read your Willie Nelson book and I'm like who's that guy that guy seems to be somebody and then we just struck up a conversation and it was after I'd seen Black Mass. I don't know that you'd made Hostiles or maybe you were making it.

I had just made it, I think. Right. Yeah. But I mean, I knew that Black Mass was a real movie and whoever made that movie was a real guy. Oh, thanks. So I was like, oh, you're the real deal, man. All right, let's hang out and talk about this shit.

That was a nice flight. That was a fun film to make in Boston, I have to say. But in terms of, yeah, obviously these movies are going to have an effect on people, but it's sort of the choices become very interesting to me, like Out of the Furnace. Okay, so you see it as a story about America and about returning vets and about poverty

and about drugs and about- Everything we were dealing with. Sure. And still are. All the time, yeah. In 2008, 2009 when I made it. But then like- 10.

Because Black Mass is really Edgerton's movie in a way. Yeah. And Joel was wonderful in that film. He's great in it. Oh my God. It's great. So was this like when you're working on that or deciding on that,

were you like, well, this is a genre that I want to fuck with? Yeah. I mean, interestingly, in terms of never wanting to be on safe ground, I've consciously, subconsciously trying to make films in all different genres. Genres that have always inspired me. Right. I made a music film. Right. I made a kind of a searing drama in Out of the furnace yeah gangster film but i wanted it to be uh the type of gangster film that that was unlike most gangster films which are where we celebrate the gangsters i mean who doesn't love scorsese who doesn't love coppola and the way that the gangsters are larger than

life and we and we and we almost they live an aspirational lifestyle i wanted black mass to be quite the opposite of that almost be the anti-departed which is a wonderful film made on the same um the same uh subject whitey bulger the departed that's right where you know jackie plays uh uh uh the whitey character. Right. But, you know, a lot of times, I think Scorsese, over time, did not glorify the mob. It's half and half. Well, he's also Italian. He knows those people.

They're larger than life, and he knows them intimately. Well, that was the thing that struck me about Black Mass was that, you know, Rory's role... Rory Cochran? Oh, yeah. ...and Jesse's...

Oh, man. ...were so authentic, it was disturbing. You know, Johnny did a great job. Yes, he did. But those guys to me, tough part to play. But Rory was like transcendent. It was like, what the fuck?

Because I had seen, I had met a couple of dudes that were killers in New York around show business and around drugs. And they have a certain vibe to them, real killers. And, you know, after talking to Rory, like, you know, I couldn't get a lot out of him, but I assume he's met a few killers. And he met a few that were very closely involved with Whitey Bulger, in fact. Oh, he went and talked to the guy that he played? Oh, I mean, he was hanging out with John Martirano, who is now walking the streets, who is, you know, one of-

Was that the other guy? The guy who was eating the nuts? Yeah. Double Earl Brown played him. him he's great another great role there were another but see i'd never seen those guys played in in such an authentic way like they were horrible yes rory and yeah and that's really what i wanted to put forth as opposed to this kind of aspirational gangster yeah life it was quite the opposite yeah And I think people probably prefer the former. I mean, look, anytime you make a film in the footsteps of Coppola and Scorsese, Jean-Pierre Melville, the great gangster director from France, it's like, man, you're really setting yourself up for failure.

But I think that the interesting thing was to- Same with making a Western, John Ford and Eastwood and Hawks and yeah but you i mean but there there's there's a way you're approaching it i mean this was about you know it was about a couple of guys from the same neighborhood brotherhood yeah family and it was about you know the corruption of of someone with integrity or the slow corruption of someone exactly right yeah so so that's a different take yes you know i mean you know depp had done donnie brascoe beautiful which. So that's a different take. Yes. You know, I mean, you know, Depp had done Donnie Brasco. Beautiful. Which, oh yeah.

That movie doesn't get the love it deserves. Oh no, criminally underrated. Totally. For both of them. Yes. You know, as his sympathy grows, he's gotten in too deep. You know, how do you extract yourself from this? Where the opposite of that is Joel who's slowly compromising his conscience

and making exceptions. Oh, he gives a heartbreaking performance, Joel Edgerton. Oh, yeah. Yeah, and when the jig is up in Harbor who's like the best, it's like when Harbor sits him down and all that insanity that Harbor brings to anything.

I love David Harbor. Oh, he's the greatest. Great guy, great actor. I really want to work with him. Yeah, he'll light you up, man. That guy is so funny. When I talked to him to work with him. Yeah, he'll light you up, man. That guy is so funny. When I talk to him, I love him. Yeah.

I should become friends with more people I talk to, but I don't. But anyway. Hold on. You and our pals, no? Yeah, we are. Yeah, we text. Yeah. But I never know when to text people.

I have a few people's numbers, but I'm like, I'm not going to bother. And why? People like to hear from you. I'm not going to bother Guillermo. Because I assume like, you know. Guillermo would love it. He's such a generous man. We was we were gonna be friends but then it's just like i guess he got busy and then i always personalize him like i fucked up somehow you know i just never want to be the guy that you know the bing on the phone happens and they look at and go like oh fuck

what does he want yeah that's funny i hardly think they'll take it. Well, I have guys like that. Don't you? Yes. But so it was conscious then, the process of deconstructing and reconstructing the gangster picture. 100%. In fact, the film that most influenced that was Coppola's The Conversation. The film that most influenced that was Coppola's The Conversation. Just in terms of how he approached the world, in terms of composition, lighting, how he told the story. Of course, that's my favorite Coppola film. Really?

Boy, I think it's awfully good. Watch that again, John Cazale. God damn it. I got to watch it. I know. I got to watch it. Hackman. I know. I know. I got to watch it. I know. I got to watch it. Hackman. I know. Devolves in it too.

I know. I know. No, it's a wonderful film. I got to watch it again. I just remember the obsessive Hackman. Sometimes when I see actors that I know can just kind of fucking light shit up and play a compressed guy. Yes.

I appreciate it. Sure. But I don't find it satisfying. I see. Well, I mean- But I got to watch it again. No, I understand that. I mean, look, I didn't find it satisfying. I see. But I gotta watch it again. No, I understand that. I mean, look, I didn't go to film school, so my

film school is watching Coppola, Kurosawa, Scorsese with the sound off. I'm watching how they tell stories, how they move the camera. More importantly, when they don't move the camera. I watched Rain People. In preparation to talk to James

Kahn. Oh, Jimmy Kahn. Well, let me ask you about Depp in Black Mass. Now, did you want him to at times look like a ghoul? You know, we pushed it a little bit. Right. But that was intentional. A bit more extreme. Yes. Johnny is an actor who I think excels and prefers to look different than he does as Johnny Depp. Yeah. If you look at all of his parts.

Sure. Apart from maybe Donnie Brasco. Right. And maybe that's the curse of just being impossibly handsome when you're young. Sure. And you want to, I mean, I don't know. Yeah. Psychoanalyzed him, but in terms of wanting to look like anything but yourself.

Yeah. And he looks very like anything but yourself. Yeah. And he looks very different than Whitey. Yeah. But what was important was that we were able to get a type of almost cobra-like. Yeah, like a demon. Yeah, from those eyes. Yes. And his ability to strike when people least expected it.

to strike when people least expected it. Mm. Um, I recall showing the film to someone who was working on the movie, and afterwards, he came out of the screening room and he was... The blood had drained from his face. He was from Boston.

He, uh... was crying, and I said, I said, are you okay? He said, well, when I was a kid, my father owned a convenience store in Boston, in Southie and my, and, and Whitey would come by every month and want his tax. Yeah. My father was a concert pianist and one year he couldn't pay Whitey because he was paying for our education and Whitey broke his finger so he could no longer play piano. and Whitey broke his finger so he could no longer play piano.

That's the kind of guy he was. And touched people... Fucking monster. ...in Boston. So that was really what I was trying to put on screen. But also then seeing a human version for someone who then loses a child, someone whose brother's the most powerful politician

in the city, played by Benedict Cumberbatch. And seeing their relationship, seeing this relationship with Joel Edgerton disintegrate. I love making that film. It's great, man. And then you just decide like, all right, let's kind of pull the Western apart. Yes. That was an intentional thing too.

It was indeed. How is Scott Cooper gonna own these genres? Well, owning them is... I mean, all right, so making them your own is what... Yes, right. And look, when you grow up in Virginia, you are saddled with the history of the horrible, horrendous original sin of slavery.

Yeah. And our incredibly awful... Manifest destiny. Incredibly awful treatment of Native Americans. Genocide. So as a, yes, that's what America is founded upon, slavery and genocide. Yeah. Right?

And taking advantage of others. Right. So as a Virginian, how do you try, I mean, you can never expunge yourself from that. So through cinema, I thought, well, then let's tell a story about a very hardened U.S. Army captain who was indoctrinated by the United States government to view Native Americans a certain way. Yeah. And then over the course of the journey, does he realize that he's been seeing them and the world all wrong? And he ends up avenging their deaths. Right.

You know, that's a turn that you wish to happen for more people, especially now. And it's possible. That is possible if you can get somebody. Well, we need it now more than ever. Well, I mean, but it's very hard to get people to connect with their humanity if they're not engaging with humans.

Yes. Or different types of humans. But so Bale, so what's the arc of the process in working with him from the beginning? Well, because we've now

made three films together. Christian has been making films for now 35 years. Since he was a kid. He was 12 years old. He's worked with every type of director, every type of actor.

He's seen every script, every story. He's seen every process. But for him, it's broken down very simply. It's all about director and screenplay. Yeah. And Christian will not only give you notes on his part,

but he'll give you notes on Jesse's part and Rory's part and Robert Duvall's part. Right. All in just trying to serve the story. Whereas most actors like to think, okay, well, how big is my part? I mean, lines do I have? Christian doesn't approach that doesn't approach he needs to know the world he's moving through and the people he's dealing with that's exactly right so um we start with screenplay like i said investigative

text work every scene every line is it necessary is it working all the way this is him as him yeah and then you're sitting there at a table. Yes, over many, many sessions. Yeah. And out of all this, his growing, I have benefited from a really deep and close friendship with him. Almost like a brother to me.

Yeah. He is, in fact. So through that, because our films are not easy to make. Yeah. No film is easy, but mine are particularly difficult. Yeah.

Psychologically, emotionally, physically. Difficult locations difficult in terms of well difficult locations difficult weather yeah difficult material every day that you have to mine as an actor right but but like in terms of like making movies in general it is it's sort of a a a big mountain to climb but is there something that you do you make them more difficult for yourself uh my wife thinks so She recently sent me the opening Credits to the new season of the white Lotus which takes place in Sicily yes, and she's like why can't we fucking make a movie here? And you're always at 8,000 feet above sea level or you're in you know, Pennsylvania Because you like it dark man. Yes, so It's like, because you like it dark, man.

Yes. This would be gray and cold. Yes. I mean, minus eight on pale blue eye or 8,000 feet above sea level on hostiles with torrential monsoonal rains. Where were we? In Colorado, Montana? What? Yeah.

New Mexico, Colorado. We never shot that one in sequence. We shot that for the first time in sequence from the beginning to the end, and we moved up north. Yeah, I grew up in Albuquerque, and I've been thinking about going back, but I don't think I'm going to. Why? I love New Mexico. I love it. I love it, too.

It's such a great state. People are so welcoming. Yeah, I was looking at properties up behind the mountain, up between Santa Fe and Albuquerque and Cerritos. Oh, love it. Yeah, but I don't know. There's no water there. Well, there's no water here. I know, exactly.

But there's no water there. Yeah, right. So I'm thinking if I'm going to go, I'm going to go somewhere where there's water. Yes, farther north. Yeah. Montana. Maybe. Canada, baby.

I love Canada. Yeah. All right, so anyway, so we, baby. I love Canada. Yeah. All right, so anyway, so we're talking about working with Christian. So, okay, so you break it down and you go inside out with the thing. Always. And see where he's at.

And out of that, I can assure you, becomes a better film. But he builds his own character. He does, and we talk about it at great length. And then on the day, because we've discussed it ad nauseum, we're completely locked in. And if I see that there needs to be

any type of adjustment, he'll just give you so many options throughout. And in particular, the film, we just finished, The Pale Blue Eye, which I think requires careful and repeated viewings. You'll see that he gives a really remarkable performance that on a second viewing might even be better. But Christian gives you so many options as an actor.

Well, knowing what you know from the first viewing and then watching it again has got to be like watching an entirely different movie. All the breadcrumbs are there. Right. Oh, yeah? Oh, yeah. By design. By design.

But yes, working with Christian, working with Rory, Jesse, the kind of the Cooper rep company, um, has been, uh, one of the great blessings in my life. I would think they all work pretty differently. They do. And, uh, I've made, uh, three movies with, uh, all of them. Yeah. It seems like, you know, but they're all of the kind of like, well, Christian is, he's one of those guys where it's like you're not,

how's anyone gonna explain, especially him, however the fuck he does it. He's just a magical guy. Correct. And these other guys are the character actors are different.

So you deal with a pretty authentic crew. You do. I do. And they go incredibly deep. Yeah. Back to Black Mass, Rory and Jesse spent a lot of time dealing with people

who've done a lot of cruel and deadly things. And that takes its toll on you as an actor. I think Rory's performance in that film is one of the great performances. It's the best. You know, where they got to deal with the girl? I mean, he sees Johnny Depp strangle his young, you know,

lover slash daughter, stepdaughter in front of him. And they slowly glide off of Johnny onto him and we just hear her off screen and it's devastating. I mean, Rory went to some incredibly deep places and I'm grateful that he would put himself through that, whatever his process is. But he also did the same thing on Hostiles, which was a tough, tough film to make.

And his character undergoes, is living with post-traumatic stress disorder and there again took a deep toll on Rory. And, and, and once bail is locked in, he's locked in. And once Christian's locked in, he's locked in. He's like a thoroughbred. All he needs is a little bit of this, a little bit of that. And off he goes. And it's, I have to say, look, as a film director, who's written these, these screenplays to see the these characters these actors bring them to life in this way is Beyond satisfying I I would leave the set every day saying to myself my god I've just seen some of the great screen acting that ever yeah, I mean truly all right No, I agree with you and and are you a are you a guy that knows when you have your take early or oh?

Yeah, yeah, and I and I don't do a lot of takes yeah because The actors and I are in such sync by the time we get to right to the floor that uh uh and then if we want to explore some things as well that that neither of us considered just to give me options in the in the cutting room for sure but um i think if you're incredibly well prepared and you are uh I think if you're incredibly well prepared and you are, uh, really focused on the most minute details out of that comes great, great performance. So you give actors a lot of room. I do. Yeah.

I love actors, adore actors. I can tell. And yeah, and yeah. And Hostiles had a bunch of great actors in it. Yes. Yeah. I've been blessed to work with some of the best. Yes.

Yeah, I've been blessed to work with some of the best. And then like Antlers, which I watched recently, I think there's a continuation of some sort of sympathetic, empathetic kind of embracing of the sort of spiritual nature of Native Americans. That's exactly right. But it's also an elegy for America. It's a horror movie. It's a horror movie, and we're dealing with the opioid crisis, and we're dealing with family trauma,

methamphetamines. No, I get that's the core of it, but it's a horror movie. It's a horror movie. It's a horror movie, but it is one of those horror movies where the ancient evil is a Native American one. That's right. And I hadn't seen Graham Greene in a while.

And I just like the sort of like that the only guy to know is the old sheriff who's a Native American. Yeah. And there were a few scenes of his that didn't make the film, but probably should have, that would have ultimately made it, I think, a richer telling. Oh, yeah? Yeah. You go back and you look at a film later and you think, my God, I cut these scenes that I should never have cut. But really, but what would they have,

uh, I think probably just giving us more insight into, into the beast. Yeah. And native American lore. Yeah. Um, I'm always very sensitive,

uh, to native American stories and their plight and trying to, you know, as a white Anglo Saxon Protestant trying to get them, get them right. And I use native American advisors and, and, you know, as a white Anglo-Saxon Protestant, trying to get them right. And I use Native American advisors and- Oh, yeah? Oh, yeah.

Both hostiles and antlers. But as a horror movie, it's a basic possession movie. It is. Yeah. When Guillermo del Toro approached me, he said, dude, your last three films have been horror films. He said, nobody knows it. Would you like to make a horror film?

And I said, I love horror films. Oh, really? So he's the guy that got you into this? Yeah. I've had producer directors. Let's see. Will Duvall's a director. He produced Crazy Heart.

Ridley and Tony Scott produced Out of the Furnace. Guillermo del Toro produced this. So I've had a lot of directors produce. Who produced Hostiles? Just myself and my producer, lesher but guillermo yeah well i can see guillermo's influence in this oh no question in terms of developing the character uh of the wendigo yeah but i got to work with the great carrie russell who's amazing she's great yeah and jesse plimmons again and jeremy thomas's young boy who would never step foot on a set

never seen a film camera and the guy who played the dad that was gnarly. And I like how it starts as a meth story. That's right. And because it is sort of a meth hallucination. It is. The whole film is. I mean, look, it's not an entirely successful film, but I love it. Really?

What's the matter with it? Well, actually, you know what? Maybe nothing. No, but I mean, like, you said you would have liked a few i think there were a couple of of scenes that maybe would have uh uh lent more um depth to uh to the story i mean because it's straddling uh it's a rough monster family drama and also a monster film it's a rough monster just you know i think people either want more drama or they want more horror monster yeah like because you know you kind of got the angery thing which which is scary and noisy.

A windigo, yeah. Yeah, and then it gets in you. And then it just shreds you. And it possesses you. And we're all kind of possessed with this darkness. We just never know when it's going to erupt. Right, and meth will bring out the ancient darkness quicker than others. It'll bring out the worst in us.

All right, so now we get to this one that I just watched in the movie theater. It's Pale Blue Eyes movie, which I didn't realize that come from a Poe story or a Poe poem. I just thought it was a Velvet Underground song.

I was like, wow, Cooper's... I was wearing a Pale Blue Eye hat in New York City and some guy's like, oh, is that the Velvet Underground? I said, no,

but I love that song. Yeah, it's a great song. But I didn't know, like the guy, the kid who played Poe. Harry Melling? Yeah. I mean, you got a real, you really got something out of that guy.

He's remarkable. Oh my God. I had only seen him one other time, which was in the Coen Brothers, The Ballad of Buster Scruggs. Yeah, he's amazing. He played the armless, legless guy. Yeah, the kind of limbless performer that Liam Neeson carries around the American West. He throws up the bridge.

And I said to Christian, I have found our Edgar Allan Poe. You've got to watch this. And Bale was like, Jesus Christ, this kid's remarkable. He then put himself on tape for me so generously. I sent it to Christian. Christian's like, why would we look at anybody else? Right. Was he producing it with you?

Christian, he did, yes. So why this story? Where the hell did this come from? As a Virginian and with a father who had lots of literature lying around the house, I spent my formative years in Virginia, so did Edgar Allan Poe. He was kind of a constant presence. Really? He was. Faulkner, Poe, Cormac McCarthy, Catherine Importer, you know, on and on and on. And after Crazy Art, my father said, I've just read the most clever novel

in which a young Edgar Allan Poe, who was a cadet at West Point, is at the center of a detective story, which is detective fiction, which was bequeathed to us from Edgar Allan Poe. And I read it just on a lark, and I thought, my God, this could make an interesting film if I could do three things.

One, I could make a film that's a whodunit, but I could make a film that's also kind of this father and son love story about two loners who live on the margins, who come together, form this bond and this friendship. That being Poe and Bale's character? Yeah, Augustus Landor, this detective. And most importantly, it could be an Edgar Allan Poe origin story

because as Americans, we think of Poe as when he's much older and he's the master of the macabre and the dark arts who's obsessed with the occult and the satanic and obsessed with death and tragedy and grief. But I wanted Poe before that.

A youngster, a romantic, a poet. He's romantic, he's poetic. And he's stuck in a military academy. Where he should never have been. And he's warm and witty and humorous. Yeah, he was there for seven months and summarily booted. But already an alcoholic.

Yes, 1830, my research led me to believe that that was a time when America drank the most. And you'll see a lot of that in this story. But I wanted the events that take place in this two-hour narrative to motivate Poe to become the writer he became. Because what happens at the end, the twist at the end, there's a couple. Yes. But there's sort of a seeming emotional betrayal that really wasn't, that brought them closer together. That's right. And also made them accept the shortcomings of either. That's exactly right.

And when Poe leaves the film for the last time, he's become a very different man from the man whom we first met yeah it's it's almost like a rite of passage uh of to to be brokenhearted in a way he didn't anticipate exactly and everything that happens in this film then motivates him to become the writer of the telltale heart and a premature burial yeah the raven but also like yeah to but to forego whatever innocence you were able to capture with that actor that you know this is a poe that you know we don't know at all young man yes who is unformed still naive and romantic yes and uh you know warm witty warm and witty and also you know a sucker for love yes so it He falls quickly and deeply. Right. And that, you know,

whatever the process of his heart breaking over time to make him what it was, this was the first turn of the screw. That's exactly right. Well put.

Julian Anderson was kind of astounding and I have to assume that, you know, when you're directing her in this thing, it might have been one of those moments

where you're like, what the fuck is happening? It was great. Well, we go back to The X-Files, though she didn't remember that. I had a part in one of the episodes. She had forgotten that when I mentioned it. Was it a big part?

I think so, yeah. Big enough? It was, yeah, for sure. She did a lot of them, dude. Yeah, she did tons. Yeah, yeah. But she has so much range. Almost unidentifiable.

Yes, and the eccentricity that I asked from her, she gave me, and then some. It was crazy. Yes. That character is crazy. And then Toby Jones and the great

Timothy Spall. Yep. Simon McBurney, Duvall. Yep. Harry Melling, young Lucy Boynton who plays Leah.

Poe's love interest is also really quite good and very committed in the film. I mean, I thought it was, it kept turning and it was all surprising. It was odd because I just watched two of Rian Johnson's movies. Oh, which are also whodunits.

Exactly. But I didn't know yours was a whodunit. So I had to interview him. So I watched Knives Out and Glass Honey. But I didn't know I was getting into a whodunit when I'm watching your movie. Not until like a third of the way through. I'm like, oh, fuck, it's a whodunit movie.'t know I was getting into a whodunit when I'm watching your movie, not until like a third of the way through. I'm like, oh, fuck, it's a whodunit movie. Yes.

But structurally, it's a whodunit movie, but it's gothic. Yes. And it's using all the genre points of horror. Yes. And the elements of Poe. Poe, but also historical story. 100%.

Planted in America of a certain time. Yeah. Yeah, for people who, and having not seen Glass Onion, historical story planted in America of a certain time. Yeah. Yeah. For, for people who, and having not seen a glass onion for people who, who come to this, um,

wanting, and because I've seen the first one, that type of tone and a whodunit might be disappointed because it is their movie. Yeah. Cause they're very different. Oh no, this is a,

this is a historical movie. And also it's got like all that good. It's got some Satanism in it. Well, Poe was obsessed with the occult and the satanic. Yeah. And you can't make a film that has Poe at its center if you don't explore those things. No, but I like all that stuff, man.

You get the candles going, knives, blood. A lot of candles in this film. And it was cold, Mark. You use the same cinematographer? Yes, Masanobu Takayanagi, who's Japanese. He's a remarkable filmmaker, great cinematographer, and really a true artist. This was an incredibly tough film to make in terms of...

What, you shot it upstate New York? Yeah, we shot a little bit there. We shot western Pennsylvania, close to Lake Erie, up in the Alleghenies. And it was really, really cold. Brutally cold. All right, so now you've got

Antlers, Pale Blue Eyes, Black Mask. Antlers was shot by Florian Hoffmeister, who shot the film recently, Tar. He's German. I like Tar. Wonderful filmmaker. I like Tar. I just talked to Todd.

Yeah? You guys are kind of similar. Oh, yeah, I need to see that film. Oh, yeah, I liked it. I've been wo. Wonderful filmmaker. I like TAR. I just talked to Todd. Yeah. You guys are kind of similar. Oh, yeah. I need to see that film. Oh, yeah. I liked it. I've been woefully behind. It's good.

It's got a good turn. Do you know that guy? No, no, no. Just Todd Fields? No, I know his work. Yeah. You seem like you would know each other. You guys are both actors who-

Yeah, that's right. Who ejected. Yes. Ejected and haven't yet come down. So when do we, when are you going to make a light movie? I mean,

just even like, you know, in terms of lighting. You mean, right, physically. Well, that's a good question.

Christian and I are going to make another film that is really out of the trilogy of, stands alone from the three films that we've made together.

It's a remake of a French film called L'Emploi du Temps by Laurent Conté, which is a film called Time Out. That's the American, which I saw in 2001, and I thought to myself, my God, this movie has stayed with me ever since. It's a remarkable film that no one that I know has ever seen it. And it's about an unemployed man

who finds his life slipping more and more into danger as he keeps his story from his family and friends. Of what he's up to? Yes. And I have adapted that, and Christian is... Is he a gambler? Is he going to star in it? No. Well, in a sense, and I have adapted that and Christian is- Is he a gambler? He's going to star in it.

No. Well, in a sense, but if you haven't seen that film, Time Out by Laurent Conte, 2001, it's a masterpiece. Yeah. Really remarkable and he was gracious enough

to let me not remake it, but giving it a new screen edition. Is this a genre movie? No. Why don't you make a musical? Well- Why don't you lighten it up a little? I made a little music in Crazy Heart.

I know. Put some music in there. Lighten it up. How about a comedy? Come on. You know, if I were ever going to make a film about Elvis Presley, I would want it to be about the last day in Elvis's life. Sure.

As opposed to- I'll tell you, that kid who played Elvis in that Elvis movie- Yeah, how is he? Fucking great. Oh, man. They're going back and forth between that day with the real Elvis and him.

It's hard to tell. Wow. Mick Jagger once asked me to make a film about Sam Phillips, the great Sam Phillips. Sure, yeah. In Memphis, of course,

Sun Records founder. I guess so. Yeah, I mean, that makes sense. He's an interesting guy. Who, Sam Phillips? Yeah, he's a mystical dude. Yeah he's an interesting guy who's yeah he's a mystical dude yeah i mean i i think he's a guy that bought his own bullshit eventually i think so yeah but i i'm eager to see that i think uh what the elvis yeah well baz is such a great it's

fun a lot of people are hard on it but it's sort of like you know well why don't you lighten the fuck up it's a baz luhrmann movie i auditioned for baz for Moulin Rouge. Yeah, and it's like, I found it entertaining. And I think that's what he's trying to do. But the guy was convincing. None of that shit works. Because if you know the guy you're making a biopic about, and the actor just falls short, then there's no way you can totally lock in.

No. It's just this weird homage to something. Of course. That's exactly right. But this guy, you know, is in it. And there's so many layers going on. Oh, I've got to see this. I love Baz's work. He's his own IP. Dude, he shoots it through, you know, some of this, you know, the

nerds, not the nerds, but the music historians are like, you know, it wasn't really like that, this or that. But to do it from the point of view of a compulsive, you know, degenerate gambler, you know, aging Tom Parker. Yeah. Who had made decisions for Elvis's life that hobbled him. Did they ever. Right.

But that's, you know, Baz. That's great drama. But Baz decides to shoot from his point of view. Yeah, man. I mean, that's a big risk. Of course. Baz does nothing but takes big risks yeah i mean i i found it enjoyable fuck it great man yeah no no i i uh now that i've just finished i literally just delivered this film a couple of weeks ago this movie's great too i mean i loved it yeah no i was great you know the thing that keep that keep thinking about is like the

the sort of uh you know now i gotta watch it again knowing how it ends and to see what you did there really. It's weird that this is a movie as an assignment. You do have to watch it twice because, you know, okay, so there's no way to know where it's going the first time you watch it. And then you want to know like, you know, is there any way to know? And there is. Come on. Of course, when you watch it the second time, you'll be like, oh my God. That's, yeah.

But is that the same way? But you aren't thinking that way when you're watching the film because you're just hopefully giving yourself over to a certain era. But so you think there are- Characters that you find entertaining. I mean, this is a more accessible film than some of my others, right? Oh no, sure. Yeah, definitely.

Yeah, because- This is my version of Downton Abbey. Yeah. Hopefully you were transported to what didn't feel like you were in a period picture, but felt like you were in a certain location. Because I hate watching period movies where it just feels like people are in costumes. Yeah, no, no, no. You definitely felt it. And also what you realize is that the nature of toxic masculinity and rapey douchebags.

They're out there. Forever. Forever. masculinity and and rapey douchebags as uh they're out there forever forever even uh uh i mean every day mark i know unfortunately and i don't know what what's wrong with men fuck something something treat women with respect and dignity and kindness and love and yeah and. And many of us do. Yeah. But there are those who do not. Yeah. And I don't know if it's a sense of privilege, entitlement. I think it's just pain. I think there's some sort of fundamental

kind of strange misogyny at the core of the dynamic that it's a threatened thing, I think, that men are threatened somehow. Yeah. Look, I grew up with a very strong mother, strong wife, two very strong, independent-minded young daughters.

And for that, I'm thankful. Yeah. But I do worry about them. Yeah, how can you not, dude? But who do you want to work with now? Mark Maron. Come on. Come on,

man, you're great. give me a little something. Are you kidding? Give me one speech and something. I would love to work with John Reilly.

Yeah? What about the big boys like Bob De Niro? Oh, I mean, come on. Al, Bob,

I mean, if I could pull Gene Hackman out of retirement. Good luck. Never. It's not going to happen. I mean, it's could pull Gene Hackman out of retirement. Good luck. Never. It's not going to happen. I mean, it's remarkable you can have such a facility, have such a career and just say, I no longer want to be a film actor.

I'm just going to write. Yeah, but it's like at some point you have to ask yourself, it's like whatever I've been chasing, whatever successes I've had, what do I want out of my life? Yeah. Yeah, at a certain point. You know, why not, if you can, pull yourself out? Exactly. You know...

It's not like you didn't do enough. No. There's a young actor that I really want to work with. Yeah. I think she's remarkable. Her name's Florence Pugh. Do you know her? Yeah.

Man, she's... Lady Macbeth, have you seen that performance? Uh-uh. Great. Oh, God. Towering. I don't know what she is, what, mid-20s? She's remarkable. Never a false moment. I'd like to work with her. Yeah. Well, this movie's great. It was great talking to you. Oh, you too, Mark. Thanks, man.

Thanks for doing it. Come on, are you kidding me? There you go. Right? Duval. Duval. We were out on the porch after the interview, and Duval left a message for him.

It was great. It was great. I don't think I'm talking out of school here. He played a little of it for me. It was just Duval talking about a movie he'd watched. It was just an old guy talking about a movie, but it was Duvall. It was beautiful. So you can stream The Pale Blue Eye

on Netflix starting tomorrow, December 23rd, and I'd like you to hang out for a minute if you could. Thank you. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls. Yes, we can deliver that.

Uber Eats. Get almost almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th

at First Ontario Center in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. So folks, we've been looking back at my old radio show, Morning Sedition, on the full Marin feed. This week, we just posted a new episode with Chris Lopresto, my old board op. We have some fun reminiscing and listening to clips and having some laughs. And we'll be doing more of that in the future weeks because there are still a lot of great clips like this one, which is appropriate for the holidays.

There's a darkness on the edge of town, heathens, and its name is Christmas. The most pagan of holidays, not sanctioned by the Bible. For according to researchers at the University of California at San Diego, or UCS, demonic. More people die of heart attacks on Christmas Day than on any other day. This is not news gluttons, for it was prophesied in a little-known poem in Revelation 1 Adam 12, 1 Adam 12, we have a bear attacking a fat man. And I quote, "'Twas the night before Christmas, and all through the house met a creature with

stirring, not even a mouse, except Uncle Herbie, whose pathetic life at most Is an omelette of darkness on top of bleak toast Anyway, seeing as Uncle Herbie had been up all night Celebrating the loss of one more day in his life He drank past his limit, cramming food down his throat Until his kidneys did bleed and his liver did bloat In his stomach sat a big ball of gluten While the pores

on his face looked like cheese they were a-sputin'. His colon did kink, did buckle and shudder, while it oozed a soft substance much like fresh butter. Oh yeah, herbs a sleazeball, but wait, there's much more. His son's a pusher, his mother a whore. And all through the night, as his stomach did gurgle, he dreamt of a neighbor's freezer to burgle. Just then, through the hallway, Santa did skulk, dragging behind him his big bag of bulk. He laid down the presents one by one, a pile of sawdust, a whole wheat bun, a bucket of bran, nitrate-free sugar plums. And when he was finished, Herbie was dead, a vessel broke or something, and Santa was taken downtown for questioning. Shouldn't boon ta-ta ta-ta for ta-ta.

End quote. If you want to hear more bonus material like that, sign up for the full Maron by going to the link in the episode description. And while you're there, you can also submit a question for a future Ask Mark Anything episode. Wait till you hear this. I pulled out the 335 and I plugged it into the little

53 Deluxe and cranked it up. Got some nice mud. Here's some nice mud clean mud though weirdly clean mud Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Homer lives. Monkey. La Fonda. Cat angels everywhere. Monkey La Fonda Cat Angels Everywhere