WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1397 - Ben Foster

Episode Date: January 2, 2023

Ben Foster was 14 years old and when he had what he calls a breakdown. Ben had a moment while acting where he completely lost himself and he needed to get back to that place at all costs. Marc talks with Ben about how he chased that feeling from the set of a Disney Channel sitcom into dramatic work in movies like Hell or High Water and Kill Your Darlings, where his commitment to the role is never in question. They also get into his two most recent performances in The Survivor and Emancipation, where he felt a deep responsibility in depicting both the victim and perpetrator of human atrocities. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store

and ACAS Creative. Lock the gates! All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fuck, Knicks? What's happening? Happy New Year.

Happy New Year. Happy New Year. Day two of 2023. How's it going for you? Is it all working out exactly as you had expected? Come on. What did you already screw up? It's day two. You've already made mistakes.

What did you do? You made promises. What did you do wrong? How did it go wrong already? What went wrong in your head to change that amazing disposition you had at 12.01 on January 1st? Is it all an illusion? Is it just something we make up this calendar year, this time-passing business? I don't know. I didn't head into New year's with uh too much

expectation it sort of it didn't really sneak up but this last week has been relatively uneventful there's that strange time in between uh christmas and new year's that it's just weird it just there's a there's a quiet to it and there's's a sort of some kind of weird pause. And it can be kind of melancholy and a little dark, I think, if you let it. I mean, I'm not surrounded by family. As you know, I was out there with my dad over Christmas, but I'm back, and I'm hanging out, and I'm getting stuff done around the house, and I'm wondering what the next year has in store or what the rest of my life has in store more likely and just trying to sort of move into it.

It's weird to not have a plan heading into the new year. It's been a long time since I haven't had a deadline, whether it be a special or a series of shows or what have you. But now I'm just doing this, talking to you, talking to people. And I believe I'm kind of thinking about the new stuff. The new stuff is happening. I'm just going to throw myself up on stage as often as possible here in town to see what unfolds, because I guess that's what I do, people. What do you do? You know what I mean?

I mean, did you have that moment where it's like, all right, well, there's some things I want to change about me for the new year or whenever you choose to do that, say that thing to you. Obviously, you're usually talking about things you think are negative, but there are some things that in terms of work or creativity, where you're sort of like, well, this is, I'm going to do it this, this year, I'm going to do it. I'm going to, I'm going to write the screenplay. I'm going to make the music. I'm going to do a, I'm going to, I'm going to write down these goals and I'm going to achieve them. This is how I'm going to do it. And then

as a few days go by, maybe a week or so, you're like, wow, I'm not really doing anything any differently. But I think that's always been the way I work. If there's something in my mind that I really want to get done, a goal, it's usually weird and impulsive and a little bit small, like whether it's to learn a song or to fix a joke or to to to kind of manifest some sort of acting role, hopefully, or if it's if it's a passion based kind of creative endeavor. I'll put it in my head, but I don't change anything. And if it's real and if it's something that is in my heart, eventually it kind of happens without it being a stressful thing, without me doing a diary about it or putting it on my vision board or whatever. It usually just, if it's in the subtext of my brain as something I want to manifest or I want to do, it usually comes to pass. It may not be as satisfying as I would

have wanted it to be or as sort of life-changing, but it'll usually happen. And I don't do it a lot. I'm not talking about big dreams here. I'm not curing cancer. I'm not selling out arenas, but these are just little things that I get in my head that I want to do. I'm barbecuing a chicken right now. That's a good example. I've never smoked a chicken, and I thought to myself a week or so ago, maybe I should smoke a chicken. I had a relatively mediocre smoked chicken in Albuquerque. And I thought, well, you know, the flavor of the meat's good, but there's just something rubbery about the skin. And, you know, I have a smoker. Why not try to smoke one as opposed to just cook it? Slow smoke a chicken. So this is a great example of, you know, I put it in my head that smoking a chicken yeah but really smoking it

not just cooking it is a goal that i wanted to do i wanted to make that happen and i just put it in the back of my mind and sure enough folks as we speak right now i'm recording this on january 1st and my dreams of smoking a chicken are happening. They're happening right now. I've actually got to go take it off of the grill and come back in here and restart. Not the whole thing, but this will be interesting. I'll pause it, though you won't hear it, unless Brendan chooses to put a musical interlude in here or something. And I'm going to go get that chicken off the grill. It's been on it. It's been on there for three hours or so

okay i pulled it off it looks pretty good i'm gonna let it sit for a while i'll let you know but this is a good example i put it in my, put it on the back burner, and then it happened. I guess that's the key to it, is that if you don't pressure yourself too much about getting something you want to get done, done, and you just kind of put it in your head and then leave it there, don't talk about it. Don't work it through in your brain. Just kind of realize that your heart's into it. And eventually when the time is right, you will manifest it. This isn't some notebook shit. This isn't mystical. It's just about not putting too much pressure on yourself because then you'll talk yourself out of it one way or

the other, or you'll talk it over so much that it'll just dissipate. Sometimes it can sit in the back of your head for years. And look, I'm no creativity coach or anything, but there's a few things that I look back on over the last year, over the last 10 years that I kind of set goals for myself, but didn't work towards them in a step-by-step way. I just kind of like, man, I really want to do that. And I'll just stick it in the back of my head. And then one day you're like, I'm doing it. Oh my God, I'm doing it. So the chicken is a small example of that, but I did it. I smoked a chicken. It's sitting in the

kitchen. I guess I didn't say say this but ben foster is on the show today look he's a great actor a great actor and i've been trying to get him on the show for years not even for any real reason other than like i'm like this guy's a fucking he's the real deal man he is a great actor and uh i'm interested in what makes that guy tick i mean i think the first time i saw him was in alpha dog he was in hell or high water he was in 310 to yuma kill your darlings he played william burroughs lone survivor he was in hostiles and uh this past year he was an emmy nominee for his role in the survivor on hbo where he plays, I think the guy's name is Harry Haft, a boxer. Well, he was forced to box in Auschwitz.

And it was kind of mind-blowing, and I didn't know anyone who had seen it. And I was like, this guy put this work in like real work. Sorry, that was a mild Robert Duvall impression. And right now he's in the movie Emancipation on Apple TV+, which I just watched. Like real work. Sorry, that was a mild Robert Duvall impression. And right now he's in the movie Emancipation on Apple TV+, which I just watched. And he's horrendous. He plays a horrendous man. But he's brilliant at it.

So we finally got him in here. And it was great. It was great to meet him. It's my pleasure right now to share with you this conversation I had with Ben Foster, who I respect tremendously as an actor. You can watch Emancipation. You can stream it on Apple TV+. The Survivor is on HBO Max. And I was a little nervous again, you know, heading into this because I was like, what's this going to where am I going to go with this guy? Am I are we going to do it?

Is it going to happen? This is me and Ben Foster. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing with cannabis legalization. It's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think

you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Are you self-employed? Don't think you need business insurance? Think again. Business insurance from Zensurance is a no-brainer for every business owner

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Zensurance. Mind your business. But your grandfather did it? Yeah, my grandfather smoked 20 cigars a day. Do you remember him? I do, yeah. Oh, you knew him? Yeah, I did. Really? Where'd you grow up? I was born in Boston.

Yeah? I was raised in Iowa. Really? All Iowa? No Boston time?? I was raised in Iowa. Really? All Iowa? No Boston time? Left when we were four, but would go visit them, my grandparents. Oh, they were there. Uh-huh.

What part? Well, they moved out to the Cape. What town? Hyannis. Oh, right in Hyannis. Yeah. Irish? I'm a split.

Hmm. Eastern European Jew and kind of Irish English mutt. On your mom's side, Eastern European Jew? Father. Really? And he was from Dorchester? I wonder how they ended up there. That's heavy Irish business out there.

It didn't sound easy, but a boy named Sue, you know? Yeah, I do know. And you, where are you from? Yeah, I do know. So Iowa. And you, where are you from? My people are from Jersey. My Jews are from Jersey. Ah, my wife's from Jersey. Oh, yeah?

What part? What town? Wachung. Wachung. Not sure where that is. My dad was from Jersey City. My mom was from Pompton Lakes. I think it's Morgan County.

I can never get it right, but all the people come from Jersey. I grew up in New Mexico. Love New Mexico. You do? I do. What'd you shoot there? Everything?

310 to Yuma, Heller High Water, Lone Survivor. You shot Heller High Water in New Mexico? Yeah. Outside Albuquerque? Uh-huh. Yeah, that's where I grew up. Yeah, yeah. You stay at Los Poblanos?

No, we stayed at this spot that apparently was a mental hospital for children that had been converted into a hotel. Holy shit. Nothing but good vibes in that place. Oh, not a ghost around. Where the fuck is that? In Albuquerque? Right there in Albuquerque. Really?

ABQ. Really? You don't remember the name of it? You know, I've gotten to this point that I just, I don't like to call it forgetfulness. Right. I'm just choosing what to remember. And that's a data wipe. Yeah.

The name of that place. Yeah. The children's mental hospital that I slept in for months. For months. So it was a residential hotel. You had a kitchen and whatnot? Yep. Oh, yeah.

It's that kind of thing. I don't think the kids did. No, I'm sure not. I'm sure they weren't allowed to have that stuff. No flames. But that was, so that was shot shot there they shoot so much shit there i was almost gonna buy a place there but then i don't know there's no water there either and it's pretty but i don't know what am i looking for you can't go home what are we looking for do you know i'm asking you well i thought it would

be nice to live there because you grow up someplace it It's got, it's sort of this part of your psyche, I think. Sure. Do you find that with Iowa? I moved around so much. When you were a kid? Well, Boston originally, as we said, then Iowa for sure, small town. So yeah. Where in Iowa?

Fairfield, Southeast corner, 10,000 people, TM community. Transcendental Meditation. Oh, so that's one of the original ones? It is the original one. Oh, I thought that was in Idaho. It's Iowa. It's Iowa, yes. The Nazis are in Idaho. TM's in Iowa.

Different group. So your folks ran away from Boston. So your folks ran away from Boston. What I'd say is they, well, our family, as lore goes, the house got broken into. My brother and I were in the house. My father was a TM teacher for years, and my mom was a receptionist in New York. At the TM place? At the TM place.

They were in their early part of that. Early adapters. So they must have been like in the first wave, like with the Beatles. They were post-Beatles, but they were early. They were very much early. He was actually a teacher and a lecturer on Transcendental Meditation. What's his name?

Stephen. Foster? Uh-huh. He's still around? He is. Still doing that? Yeah. Like lecturing, though?

Oh, not lecturing, no. I'm not necessarily a group guy, but I dig the technique. Yeah, my old girlfriend who passed away was uh like she did it i mean she was in man like twice a day 20 minutes no matter what no matter what where she is like i gotta go carve it out of the schedule she's a film director and like she'd go do it amazing and this woman i'm with now she started it because she's a david lynch fan sure but she didn't stick yeah i don't think she sticks she's a David Lynch fan. Sure. But she didn't stick. Yeah, I don't think she sticks. She's doing some meditation now, but not the TM. But she went and paid for her secret sentence.

Yeah. Buy the ticket, take the ride, man. Yeah, got to get your secret sentence. But I find it, I'm attracted to it. I didn't stick with it. Why can't it be as addicting as cigars? Oh, wouldn't that be something? Right, but you grew up with it,

so it's just what you do. Yeah, I grew up only doing that, only knowing that, and then I left it behind and returned to it. Oh, really? You know, just... Twice a day guy? Used to be.

I mean, when I was growing up, twice a day, we did it in class mean when I was growing up twice a day we did it in class it was amazing as a kid so you went to a school we were deep but it's one of those things

where you can't I think it gets misunderstood as a cult well what I'd say is any group of people doing a thing that involves certain rituals that is not an established religion could be considered a cult.

Okay. For myself, I'll just say not a group. I try to avoid groupthink. Yeah. When it tends. Yeah. But the technique itself of Transcendental Meditation, be it through the David Lynch Foundation or through TM Center, it's been invaluable to me. And one that I've returned to and found, it quiets the racket. Yeah, I could use that. But I guess meditation is holding that moment.

I was talking to my wife about this today. If you have a technique, whatever that is. Meditation. We'll call it meditation. Fine. You can mean anything. But it's not like, oh, I'm meditating so good right now. It's the return is the muscle.

Right. Your mind drifts. You go somewhere else. And you're like, oh, return to center. Yeah, I get it. Yeah. And that's a good groove just to the muscle. Right. Your mind drifts, you go somewhere else. Sure. And you're like, oh, return to center. Yeah, I get it, yeah. And that's a good groove just to keep reinforcing. Right, just to stop it. Let it happen, let it pass, come back.

I was doing that. I was doing pretty good at that. How great. Yeah, I know, but I didn't stick with it. Well, but you can anytime. I know, I know. You know, I'm not going to, you know, you know, you know. You know, you know.

Now, do you, have you talked to David Lynch about it? Yeah, I have. I have. It must be fun talking to him about anything. Just being in his presence is just a thrill. Just a delight. Dude, he, you know, it was a long wait, but he made the Fablemans worth watching. I've heard.

I haven't seen yet, but I can't wait. Ford. He's doing Ford, right? He's doing Ford. Amazing. Old Ford. Eyepatch Ford. I mean, the one question, when I heard that he did that, my question was, was he chewing

on a bandana? Because that's part of the lore of Ford is not only the eye patch, but when he would get anxious, he would gnaw on these handkerchiefs constantly.

Really? And I was like, oh, he didn't make that choice. All right. No, he was lighting a cigar. Lynch was in, and he lit the fuck out of it. And it was great.

He's a smoking TM-er. The two performances that make the movie is fucking Judd Hirsch. Yeah. Yeah, man. And fucking Lynch. Judd Hirsch shows up as the wild uncle who gives him some life advice, a young Spielberg. Just this crazy ex-Carney uncle. He's a Russian Jew.

Need more of this in life. Yeah, man. Give me David Lynch with an eyepatch and Judd Hirsch as a Carney. Sold. I have two kids, so I'm slow to the punch on films right now. Your brother's an actor too?

He does a lot of things. He is an actor. Younger brother? Yeah. How much younger? Four years. I got two and a half between. Younger brother? Yeah. How much younger? Four years. I got two and a half between me and my brother. Yeah.

Where does he live? Florida right now. Okay. Not happy about it. I'm sorry. He's all right. So how does this happen, that two of you end up in the arts? I mean, obviously you have supportive parents.

They seem like open-minded folks. Certainly open-minded. It was pretty quick to fall in love with the dream. And the dream being being in the dream. Mm-minded. It was pretty quick to fall in love with the dream. And the dream being in the dream. Right. The collective dream that's provided for people. That's provided. And seeing a school play and just saying, wow, I'm transported.

I want to feel more of that. Do you remember the play? I do. What? Midsummer's Night's Dream, yeah. Shakespeare, even? Yeah. I mean, it was an adaptation.

What grade are we talking? Eight years old. Oh, so Iowa, eight years old. Oh, but it was a grown-up production. No, it was a high school production. Oh, kids. Yeah, kids. And you were like, fuck yeah.

I was like, that's it right there. Fuck, holy smokes. Yeah? And I went back. I had a bit of the, what you call a lowish grade OCD. Yeah, me too. Yeah. Wasn't a terrific student.

They tried to hold me back in kindergarten. I just really wanted to make leave. Real disappointment. Oh my God. Crushing. Crushing. Like finally the kid's into something yeah yeah right and that's uh so it started in first grade you're on your way just let me out of this room

and these kids and the cruelty of it and the weirdness of it even though we're in a tm school i want to be a part of that feeling that I felt as an audience member. You were in a TM school and there were still problems? Of course, there were problems everywhere. They're just kids. Kids are kids. Kids are kids. But tell me about this TM school.

Now, did the rest of the town think you were weirdos, like you were Amish? There were Amish nearby. Oh, well, so everybody was in the same state. Everybody was just looking at each other and being like, you're a weirdo too. Yeah. It's just that we didn't share it. We didn't. And also, you didn't have to dress up for years.

Yeah. No, we did, actually. That's where it leans a little. Oh, yeah. You call it privates or you call it culty. What was the outfit? It's not wild, wild country. We weren't going that far.

Like gray pants, button-up shirt. Oh, really? But everyone warm? Yeah, everyone warm. Wow. I had no idea that TM ran that deep in places. Oh. I mean, this is...

What? Yeah, it's wild. They're golden domes. Oh, yeah? Yeah, golden domes this is... What? Yeah, it's wild. Yeah. They're golden domes. Oh, yeah? Yeah, golden domes. Where are those? Right next to the school where the men would go and the women would go to their golden dome at meditation time.

Oh, so it is a cult. Bye. I'm just saying there are qualities in all... You could call... Who's the main guy? Well, Maharishi. The Beatles guy. Beatles guy.

He was a good guy. Did they find anything shitty about him? I never heard anything shitty about him. That's good. But the moment you start putting profit involved is always a question. Right. However, you have to pay for people to teach the thing yeah and a farmer is not giving away his food right so if you're giving some kind of

nutrition to the world uh once he passed yeah some of the organizational issues came up we no longer kind of associated so much with that. Oh. And then David Lynch came in and was trying to make it more affordable and finding ways to give it away or at least share it. That's what I thought. With vets, with people who've been dealing with trauma.

It is highly effective in treating anxiety, trauma. All right. So you started doing theater in high school? Probably when I was nine. It was just a box mover would help. Yeah, trauma. All right, so you started doing theater in high school? Probably when I was nine. It was just a box mover would help. Yeah, yeah. Just waiting for a line. Yeah.

And just excited to be around it. Yeah. And was doing pretty poorly in school. I'm sure there was some learning issues there. Yeah? You never looked into it? We did. My parents did.

Yeah. But burned the results. Oh, really? Yeah. They didn't even tell you about it? No. Like, we're not giving you a label. Oh, good.

Well, that was nice. They're amazing. Yeah. Truly. I mean, my parents are. That's a good truth. That's a good thing to hide from you, I guess. Why?

Yeah. And what do they know? Not your parents, but whoever gave you the label. And by the way, that label may change once the new DSM comes out. Sure. But you have no idea. No, I have no idea. But you still can't do math.

Is that the issue? Math. I'm a spatial thinker. What does that mean? I just see things. I see. But once it gets into the. Oh, numbers?

Yeah. Yeah, I'm no good at it. No? I did okay with geometry because that is your pictures. Yeah, I could dig on that. Yeah, you did? Yeah. That was my big math year.

That was a good year for you. Yeah, geometry was it. Algebra, no can do. Forget it. And none of it. Just, I had no idea. But geometry, I'm like, oh, we draw pictures? Yeah.

And we prove things from the picture. Perfect. Got it. Nailed it. Yeah. I don't know. So, no Jewishness in the house? Jewishness, yeah.

I was bar mitzvahed. Oh, so it doesn't, you can mix. You can mix the TM with the Jew. You can definitely mix the TM with anything. Yeah. Unlike certain other communities. Right, so that takes it a little out of cult world. Yes.

out of cult world. Yes. I went with fellow classmates who were Jewish to a little temple in Fairfield, Iowa. But we'd also practice the high holidays. Yeah, yeah.

And you had the interesting Jewish grandparents. Who came to our town. My grandmother's from uh romania yeah and uh and uh my grandfather's family comes from the ukraine yeah um that's where my people were from ukraine yeah uh my mother's side yeah yeah where we uh located a communist bedolsk small village which ultimately long story, the reason why I moved to New York after LA was I worked with a guy, a wonderful writer, director, Oren Moverman.

Who I met and talked about you for like an hour. Is that right? Uh-huh. Israeli. Israeli. I met him. We make a film called The Messenger. We finished the film.

I'm supposed to head back to LA. I'd been there for 12 years. We're going to have to backload all this information. Yeah. Spatial thinker. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

It conicals. Yeah. And we were just having a chat. And he was like, yeah, my family's from this little village, Communist Podilsk. Wow. And we were like, I was like, you are family. I'm going to move to New York.

Yeah. Truly. That was it? That was it. I moved because of Orrin. And you guys like, I was like, you are family. I'm going to move to New York. Yeah. Truly. That was it. That was it. I moved because of Orrin. And you guys are best friends, right? He's my brother. Yeah.

I met him. It was a general meeting, I think. And I think it was, I can't remember why, but I was running around meeting people. As one does. Yeah. And we talked for a long time. I can't remember. But I know I had shared an idea with him

because he said you guys were trying to do something similar or along the lines of, you know, I had this idea for a TV show about social workers. That's right. Yes. And he said you guys were doing something. And of course I left going like,

fuck, so they're doing it? But, you know. Didn't happen. It didn't mind. We sold it, but they didn't make it. I see. What was it? What was your angle on the social work? Why were you interested? Well, just being deeply moved by a word that Oren and I talk often about is service. What does that mean?

Yeah. And being and feeling lost when you don't know what you're in service of. Right, sure. Well, that's what gave meaning to Christianity originally, I believe, was the service part. One would hope we can return to these ideas no matter who. We can if you go to AA. Okay, well.

It's all service-oriented. Service is... It's a mixed bag in AA, but that know, that's the whole premise of it. Show it for somebody else. Listen to their story. You get out of your own garbage for a while. Love it. Yeah.

So that was what was appealing. Did you have any experience with a social worker? My father's sister. Yeah. Auntie Susan. Uh-huh. Amazing woman. Yeah.

Was a social worker. Yeah. And she's just an extraordinary human being. Right. And now has started a wonderful foundation for cancer research and family healing called Conquer Cancer in Boston, Mass. And she and my nana, we lost a lot of family members to the disease. And just decided family members needed more care. Support. And so, yeah,

conquer cancer. Huh. And she started in social work and now has built this thing. Yeah. And the foundation reaches out to people for counseling and process.

Process or financial aid or activities being like painting. Yeah. If you're struggling or even the family members who are struggling. With it, yeah. With it.

And there's a wonderful, it's called the Hope Garden. They started and that's in Boston. You can buy a brick. Yeah. And mention a loved one, someone who survived it, someone who didn't. And a place where you can meditate in your own way. Yeah.

It's nice, yeah. It is nice. Yeah, grief and death and the process of it, terrible. And not a lot of support around it, not a lot of cultural conversation around it. I think the entire capitalist model is built on avoiding it entirely, the reality of death. In our culture, it is mind-blowing how we don't confront it and integrate it into our daily life as acceptance, as exploration. Right. It's rough.

How do you feel about it? Which part? The inevitability. I think about it every day. In a good way? In a way of contemplation. I mean, anybody doesn't think about it. Yeah, I think about it.

Every night I'm like, is this it? Well, yeah. I'm 59. You know, people. What was it oh there was there was that there there's a there's a spiritual uh uh belief of of meditating on your own fatality and and by doing that four times a day actually practicing that considering one's mortality is actually a healing process and enlivens life rather than it being a morbidity it's it's a way of releasing your fear right i mean i think i i mean i tried

i do think about every day and you know and my my parents are still alive and they're they're both aging my dad's you know drifting and you know they're in their 80s so but you start to think of a life and what it means like the the thought i have almost always after i'm laying in bed going like is this it like if i'm gonna die am i gonna die tonight right my second thought is always like i gotta get rid of some shit i got too much shit you mean just stuff and the house? Yeah. They can't find me with all this shit. That's the saddest

thing. I don't know how many people you've lost, but when you lose somebody, you're there with their shit. And somebody has to make decisions about the shit. And a lot of the shit is just sort of like, I don't know. Give it away? Do we throw it away?

What do we do? Because you hold on to shit. It's like another phase of the same type of meditation. The talismans, the memories of it, the smells of it. Sure, man. Or even just maintaining that space keeps some kind of lifeline. Well, you choose a couple of pieces of prime shit and you keep it. Do you have talismans?

Do you have things that you need? Oh, for sure. And they cycle in and out. Oh, right. Like, why did I give a shit about this thing? Or that has used up its purpose and I need to get rid of this because it's actually a vacuum

rather than I can feel energized by it or activated by it it's taking now it's because yeah it's it's a bad relationship it's worn out i've worn out that stone so but you never got uh you never got it to script or you never uh the social work we did no no i didn't no no and i as i know oran and i were were were pitching the concept but we didn't do the yeah it's like it's such an unsung world and it's so like it to us it was it was a portal into the entire structure of society here because through social work you know you get you get into state funding. You get into politics.

You get into drug problems. You get into criminality. You get into the injustices of the legal system. You get into everything. Family. Family, yeah, of course. So when do you move to L.A.? You're in Iowa?

The short version is not a great student. Right. Started writing short plays. Sketches or plays? Serious? Oh, comedic all the way. Yeah. All the way.

Funny. I was obsessed. My dream was to be on SNL. Really? I wasn't allowed to watch violent movies, being in this TM community, but my parents showed me comedy. Yeah. Yeah.

And when I got a little bit older, they showed me, we'd get a VCR copy of like the best of SNL. Right. So sketch comedy was the goal. So were you funny? Enough so where people started watching the plays. Yeah. And they would laugh. Yeah.

So that felt good. Because like, you know, I'd like to see you in a comedy. I don't know that I have. They haven't really come my way. Yeah, well, I mean, would you like to do that? Of course. I'd much rather laugh. But if you were offered a comedy,

like it seems like you could be, like you could be the good cop and the good cop, or the bad cop and the good cop, bad cop funny thing. Write it. Call me. I'm waiting for that cop comedy. You need a comedy, man. Come on. I love it.

Yeah. So I got loaded with, just started working on accents and dialects. For the comedy? Yeah. And impressions. Yeah. But it was all Rich Little based. Sure.

I was really protected. It was not, my parents just kept me kind of out of time. Uh-huh. There's Martin and Lewis. Really? The Marx Brothers. Yeah. Looney Tunes all the way.

Yeah. That was the world. Buster Keaton, Charlie Chaplin, that's what I was allowed to watch. So I put a tape out of me just doing silly stuff i think my dad filmed it yeah disney got a hold of it and they said would you audition and i was like what's that yeah because i'm a kid who sent it in uh family favor was like hey two kids someone in la someone in la uh-huh friend of the family from boston right knows an agent yeah uh would just meet these kids yeah and you and your brother yeah they did so you were doing the sketches with your brother not with my brother um we did a

couple school plays together yeah but mostly it was writing and then ended up winning a international award for this play that i did with a classmate. Uh-huh. Wrote and acted in. What was the award? It was for best short play. For a kid? It was a program called Odyssey of the Mind.

Okay, there you go. And yeah, you have all year. You got to work on it just with your classmates. Is that still around that organization I think it's changed names Odyssey of the Mind yeah

great yeah really wonderful something that you could creatively I could at least find some kind of

confidence in yeah because it's immediate yeah when you like we're going up it's time it's time

yeah paint the sets yeah yeah make the thing try that one do the whatever we do great it's immediate. It is. You know, when you, like, we're going up. It's time. It's time. Yeah. Paint the sets. Yeah, yeah. Make the thing. Try that one. Do the, whatever we do. Great. It's so much fun.

Yeah. So Disney sees you. Disney. Do your bits. And they say, would you read these words? So I read the words. They're like, would you read the words again on tape? So I did.

And you were doing this on tape in Iowa or you went to LA? Went to LA. And then they said, okay, you got a show. Wow. So you're on a Disney show. At 14. Wow. So that's how it starts. And after that. 25 episodes. You did a bunch? Yeah. That was flash forward. It was flash forward Disney show. Comedy. I mean, children's two best friends growing up next door to each other.

So do you consider yourself like one of the Disney kids? I don't. I don't. That's not how I associate. You weren't a Mouseketeer, but I mean, but you were on a kid's show.

Were there other actors that we know that came up through that? Because there's Disney kids. I think Gosswing's a Disney kid, isn't he? I think he was on our show. I think he might have,

I think he might have guessed it on it. And that was it. I just, I dropped out, I dropped out. I bought a proficiency test. I had kind of a mental breakdown at age 14.

How did that manifest? Manifested where I did four episodes of this Disney show. Never been on a set before. Knew nothing about it. Family's not involved. Get on set. And I'm in love with the thing.

We shoot four pilots for four episodes. I returned to Iowa for a year. And the world just... You're 14. Yeah. I wouldn't put 14 on anybody. Yeah. It's a tough age.

Yeah, a lot of things are changing. Everything's changing. Brain's going crazy. Everything's just not... Hormones. Hormones, chemicals. Yeah. And it went really dark.

Really? And back in this TM school, it was really dark. Really? And I'm back in this TM school and it was very dark. And you'd seen, you'd been to the other side. You'd been to Hollywood. Well, I'd been to Toronto. Oh.

That's not nothing. I love Toronto. Toronto's a great music scene. I love Toronto. I love Vancouver. I love all of it. I great, great music scene. I love Toronto. I love Vancouver. I love all of it. I've applied for permanent residency. You have?

Yes. I wish you luck. Thank you. Yeah. Do you have it? I don't. No. You're good?

You're going to hang out? You're going to fight the fascists here? Oh, man. I don't know. I'll wake my... I talked to my wife. She's like, what about Portugal? Yeah.

Well, that's what a lot of people are doing. But I can't... I need it to be similar or I'll feel up and talk to my wife. What about Portugal? Yeah. Well, that's what a lot of people are doing. But I need it to be similar or I'll feel like an outsider. I don't want to just be hanging around with other expats in Portugal without knowing the language. That's fair. Asking people where they're eating. What are you having? Yeah. Gesture.

Yeah. So after the mental breakdown but were you hospitalized or um not hospitalized yeah but but um enough to be it was uh it was hairy and now being a parent you know uh just mental health is such a uh uh there's there there's a lot more uh resources now than there were and the conversation's a lot more open yeah but through this what we'll call a 14 year old breakdown yeah um uh when i returned to the show the show was picked up yeah something had snapped in me and they wanted the dis Ben they had before. And the line as example would be like, hey, Becca, let's go get some pizza.

Yeah. I was like, people don't talk like that. Oh. He became a real actor. People don't talk like that. Just no. Yeah. So they hired an acting coach.

Yeah. And he was trying to get me to be more up or something. Perky. Perky. Perky. Yeah. And it didn't work and we just talked about getting lost

in a scene. What does that mean? I had a taste of it doing a play. It was like, there was a moment where I got lost and I blacked out

and that became the drug. I was like, I want that back. Right. I want that. Yeah. How do I get there? Was it on the Disney show?

It was on a play in between. I did, yeah. But that is always sort of like, I don't know if you're at that age, you know that's the goal or that is the achievement of acting. Maybe you know. Were you like, I want to get lost in a character or you knew that you liked acting, but did you know that to do it purely would be to get lost, or did it happen coincidentally? Coincidentally. Yeah, wow.

Just doing a play in between. Yeah. It was a very dark play. I think it was called Juvie. It was about kids dealing with social workers. Just a play play, not for anyone. Yeah. just just a play play not not not for anyone yeah and um and i checked out but you were there but i did something happened i was there oh wow the scene took place and people

responded very positively yeah yeah yeah and i was like that whatever that liminal space was whatever that in between space was i to find a way to get back. Yeah. So that was the goal. I mean, it's the first hit of Coke. Right. Or your first great sexual encounter. Right.

It's just, that addiction was immediate. Yeah. And how do I get back? Yeah. Well, so that means you had to put in place some sort of process. Yeah. Well, so that means you had to put in place some sort of process. Yeah. Like moving around in a dark house that isn't yours. You're just bumping into the furniture.

So you go back to the Disney show, and were you able to live with that? I mean, it sounds like you had quite a few more episodes to do. It was great in terms of technically learning. To be on set? To be on a set. Yeah. But the values started adjusting. But that's not a bad thing to have.

It's great, ultimately. Yeah. So when do you start to shift in to more focus around being able to do that? You know, get your buzz. There are brief moments. I mean, these are flashes, right? You're chasing the zone. Yeah. Or as a musician yourself, when you're just, you're chasing the zone yeah or or as a musician

yourself when you're just you're in a lick yeah and it's just it's moving through you it's a current it's bigger than you sure you're just making room why do that like as a stand-up you know things happen they come and you stay in it and it's kind of amazing because you don't know where it comes from which is the exciting part about it if you work improvisationally or you let you leave yourself open, something will be delivered. And you can't force it or make it happen, but when it happens, you're like, okay.

Well, how do you set yourself up? Because everyone's waiting for the muse or the moment or the zone you're chasing in. But your process, when you're doing stand-up, is there a way that you try to set yourself up for that? Yeah. Because like, you know,

I'm not, you know, I don't write jokes. I, to me, that's like performing math. So, you know,

right. You know what I mean? It's like a plus B equals this. Like, you know, I do polish over time, but the whole process begins improvisationally. Like,

so, so what, how I make myself available, whether I'm totally conscious of it or not, but I've been doing it this way for a million years, for as long as I've been doing it, is you sort of put yourself, you corner yourself, and you have to get out. Yeah. And, you know, and you're in that moment. And for me, it's like, what's the beat? How am I going to, you know, like, I'm funny. So if I put myself, if I corner myself up there and I don't know where it's going to go, then I got to be funny and something will come.

Yes. And then I hold on to those pieces and eventually they become a full piece. So I don't know where they're delivered from, but it's the best part of any show that I do are those moments of improvisation where I feel, you know, open enough to just let things happen. And that's when it happens. When you let go. Right. It doesn't happen for an hour. Sure.

But sometimes it can be just a line. I just shot an HBO special last week in New York, Town Hall. Right on. And there are moments in there, which there are in all my specials, that never happened before and won't happen again. So I know that. And, like, it's great that it happened in that context. I don't know if anyone will notice it.

But there was one moment that, like, made a bit complete. It wasn't complete until the night of the special. I mean, it was strong enough. But I saw, you know, a beat happened. And I'm like, where did that come from? There it is. Yeah. Same with acting?

Well, it's amazing. Back yourself up, do as much homework, and be open to whatever happens. Right. And listen to it. Right. So it's similar, except mine is a life of comedy. Yours is research and immersion in a role you sure you're immersed in your life your perspective your point of view right you are and you are

yes that's right and and you're you're giving yourself the opportunity to discover a new door a left a right a beat a moment that's it it's not an hour i mean we're chasing seconds minutes at best i know i know i know but uh that's the drug yeah that's it it's not nailing it's never been nailing anything yeah anytime and and that and that was a great that took time to learn was i'm gonna nail this or never works yeah Yeah. No, I'm not a nailer. Me neither. I do not nail. But, you know, it's like with a performance, like, I don't know.

I think it's minimizing to say somebody nailed something when you have an arc of a character or something transformative happens, you know, it would seem, I don't know. Like I watched, like, I think the first time I saw you was in Alpha Dog and I was like who the fuck's that guy that's crazy you know it's a colorful guy yeah but then you you i saw you i i mean i don't know it's when it happened but i i was at i was at sundance for some reason i think with for bigley's movie and i saw kill your darlings right yeah and and like you know i'm a big burrows guy so like you know anyone who's going to take on Burroughs, I'm like, no, I didn't listen. And I was like, yeah, he did all right. He did his homework.

Sounded good. Sounded like Bill. It's kind of dry and weird. Uncle Bill. Yeah. And, you know, so then I was sort of like on board with the Ben Foster experience. I always look forward to seeing you around. Well, that's so nice. What'd you do for,

how deep did you get into Bill? Oh, went deep. Yeah. Went deep on Bill. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, I got in touch with James Grauerholz, who runs the estate. Sure. And he shared a lot. Yeah. He was very generous with me to return to not trying to nail it, but being prepared to get lost. Yeah. That's the game. I mean, I've slept at his house. I've slept in Burroughs' bedroom. In St. Louis or wherever?

Yeah. So we just, yeah, he casts a long shadow and a complicated history, particularly today. I don't know if people talk about him that much. I talked to Patti Smith about him. It was kind of funny because he hit on Patti Smith in New York. Really? And thinking she was a guy. Oh.

Well. But they became lifelong friends after that. That's a good story. It's a great story. Yeah. Yeah, I remember the first time I saw William Burroughs was when I was a freshman in college, and he appeared on Saturday Night Live, and I had no idea who he was. And he was just-

Nike ad. No, he did a bit. He did a bit? Yeah, he sat there at a desk on SNL. It must have been 1982. And he did Dr. Benway, man. Yes. Yes. Yes. Get me a new scalpel, nurse. This one's got

no edge to it. And I'm like, who the fuck is this guy? I had no idea. And that kind of fucking blew my mind open. I got into the beats after that. It was the right time. What a spiral. Yeah.

But I'm curious about the new movie because I have questions about... The Survivor or Emancipation? Survivor. Like, I didn't know that story and I guess it's a known story of Harry Heft. Right? I mean...

I didn't know the story. You didn't know either? No. But I watch a movie, you know, and it's like one of those movies as a Jewish guy and as a guy that, you know, watches movies. And I've talked to Levinson. I've interviewed Levinson. And I didn't know the movie existed.

And I'm like, how do I not know that this movie's been out for a while? Right? And it's great. You're great in it. And you do the whole thing. I'm not going to say nailed it, but you put your work in to the way it was done. And I think my question was when I realized that the movie had been out for a while and thing i i'm not going to say nailed it but you put your work in to the wheel it was not and i think my question was when i when i you know realized that the movie had been out for a while and that

it was this you know kind of an amazing film about a flawed but amazing guy you know who survived it's a heartbreaking movie in so many fucking ways heavy story about this boxer in auschwitz was it auschwitz or one of the other ones was it auschwitz was it Auschwitz or one of the other ones was it Auschwitz it was Starlet Auschwitz yeah

like when you do that like when you lose the weight you learn the dialect you learn the language you learn a life is the work enough in the sense of like you want people to see it?

For sure you want people to see it. But do you walk away from something like that? That must have been what, three or four years of your life? I mean, we shot it in 38 days. But you had to put the weight back on, right? Well, we were strategic in that when I took it on, and Barry called up and said, do you want to do this film?

Yeah. It covers three decades of a man's life, and extreme weight loss is involved, as well as weight gain. Yeah. They offered digital technology, i said i can't you got the wrong actor i can't do that yeah just i do i my brain froze yeah it was on a conference call and they said well we can digitally shrink you we can digitally make you big and i just said

wrong actor can't do it like i just said no yeah give me time. If we can make time, I don't know quite how it's going to work. Let's do it analog. Yeah. It would be unfair to this material. I wouldn't be able to face myself. I don't know how to do this if I'm just walking around having lost 15 pounds. Yeah. We have to go far.

Yeah. So we started in the camps. Yeah. So I had five months to drop the weight. Yeah. And lost 62 pounds. got down to what 120 123 yeah something like that and then we took five weeks off and just and that was for the ring so i put on 50 just ate and worked out and slept and ate. So this is for like in Auschwitz, in the camps, you're fighting at the behest of a Nazi who has sort of given you the ticket to live is to beat the shit out of other Jews in the ring.

To the death. Yeah. Yes. And if they didn't die, they'd kill him. That's right. Yeah. And then you enter the world. Escape a death march.

Yeah. Harry escaped a death march. Yeah. Found himself in New York, and his only trade was his hands, and was what they call a tomato can boxer, really. He had a little bit of fame because of his story, his narrative,

being the survivor of Auschwitz, where 73 lives passed through his hands, his fellow Jews, gladiatorially. When he kills his friend, it's horrendous. Did you meet his relatives?

I met his son who wrote the book, but we were deep into the shoot i didn't want to speak with him i was intimidated how do you say i'm an unplayer father so i just listened to hours and hours of testimonies of survivors and watched hours and hours the show a foundation was worked with closely with us so I wanted all those voices in me. That was my... I needed to just saturate in the stories,

and you start hearing these continuities in survivors' stories. Like what? Hope that a loved one was still alive. And that's what you played in that. And that's, and we, we explored those ideas. Viktor Frankl talks about it in Man's Search for Meaning. But it was interesting in that movie that I, you know,

the thing that sticks with me is that, you know, you're holding onto this love, this girl, and you, who you met when you were a teenager. In Poland. Yeah, right. And then like your whole life, you were a teenager. In Poland. Yeah, right. And then your whole life, it's here. But you realize that when you do finally, this story's a story, I hope I'm not spoiling anything,

find out that she's actually still alive. The idea that what was important was the hope and that what was, whether the love was, whatever it was, it was so young and so love was whatever it was it was so young and so short but it was enough it was enough they knew you know yeah you know and like that that was what's amazing and but and also that he held on to it and the shame of not reconnecting for so long the shame of that the weight of the shame of that character how did you live with that well to return to the the idea of service yeah my goal was to to to make sure that harry felt lived in and also uh progressively americanized yeah as it goes from a young man Yeah.

in the camps surviving the camps day in and day out Yeah. in this most brutal way in America as a boxer and his whole point or his goal

was trying to get his name in the paper so maybe the girl from Poland might be still alive the girl that kept his heart his energy

his focus his ability to survive might see it, and they could reconnect. And as much as he tried, he didn't. He couldn't find her. He married someone else. They had kids. And once you've gone through a trauma,

or an impossible trauma. A prolonged. I can't even i can't even it's it's even hard to contextualize with modern language i would agree the dehumanization yeah that happened in the camps but the the the the the the nachos there it is of a survivor there are many and they somehow were able to compartmentalize

that shit over however long it took the mental fortitude or the spiritual fortitude the

ruthlessness or the devotion to the hope of being reunited that was the continuity that I heard over and over again was the thing that kept me from or the devotion to the hope of being reunited. That was the continuity that I heard over and over again,

was the thing that kept me from... that got me up when you wanted to drop, when you had no muscle left on your body. You're physically depleted and in a work camp, and if you can't work, you're thrown into the oven, or the gas chamber chamber or the fire pit getting that close to that material emotionally you know i just i i guess the the question i was trying to ask and framing it you know in a clumsy way was that like to me this is a movie that everybody should see and you should be you know know, sort of recognized for that, for that, that journey you took, you know, and I,

and I'm sure you are, but what I want to know as a guy who acts occasionally is, do you walk away from that work, you know, feeling satisfied, you know, like, like I did the work and that's enough. Completing the film was one of the most profound experiences because I was allowed the opportunity to consider

the horrors of mankind and also finding the glimmer of hope that can get you through that. So just on a personal level, my life has been enriched and there's more gravity to this human experience. You hope people see the work.

Of course you want people to say, hey, I really liked that. Yeah. But personally, the words that, when I speak to my wife about it, it's like, I'm clean. I just feel clean.

Yeah. The work speaks for itself. The story should be seen. Yeah. It should be talked about. Yeah. Particularly now when,

my Lord, I mean, they're burning books and banning books again. Yeah. This fascist mentality is trying to erase not only the Holocaust,

but what we've done to the enslaved people of our country. The way that genocide repeats itself time and time again throughout the world. Yeah. You hope that a story can not be

just a Trojan horse as homework, but actually tenderize a heart. Like you may think today's the worst day of your life, and we all have those moments. You may say, I can't get out of bed today. I don't know why I'm going to work. I don't who i'm with i don't know who i am yeah take a beat just take a beat take a breath reflect not on the horrors of life but that endurance is available to you it's in there it's in your d Yeah. And it's worth fighting for.

Yeah. For those seconds. That's it, man. And if you can't get there, you eat something. Take a nap, drink some water, if you're lucky enough to have those at your disposal. Right. Well, I guess, like, I thought it was great.

I thought the performance was great, the story's great, and I loved the way that you managed a guy as he gets older you know carrying not only the trauma memories but the memories of what he had to do to survive and then ultimately not being able to to live with that i think you know in terms of stopping fighting so many survivors of of and this can apply to soldiers. Sure. Don't want to talk about it. Right.

Don't want to talk about it. It's too much. Try and compartmentalize. And you can. You can't put trauma away. You can stuff it, but it's going to pop out somewhere else. And this is him

trying to fight by forgetting. Yeah. And he can't. Yeah. Well, I thought I was very honest about that, about how his family life starts to kind of erode. We got to look at it.

So now you turn around and do, well, I mean, there was some time between it, but this character in Emancipation is the opposite. Other side of the wire. Right. Now, going into that, or when he started to prepare for that, did you realize that? I mean, did you feel the weight of that? For sure. When I first read the script, I said, wow, this is really, it's a fast, it moved well.

Yeah. And I wanted nothing to do with that movie. I just spent, we went to Auschwitz to prep The Survivor on HBO, as you can see. And Antoine Fuqua calls me up. He says, I want you to essentially play a manhunter of slaves, the enslaved. And I just didn't want to look at those things anymore. I didn't want to look at the atrocities of man. And Antoine said, I want to lift the veil. the atrocities of man. Yeah. And Antoine said,

I want to lift the veil. And I was like, good luck and I wish you all the best. I think it's wonderful you're doing this. We need this movie, but right now

I want nothing to do with it. And I stayed up all night. I'm like, why don't I want to do this? And you have your self-talk, right? Yeah. Talk to yourself. Right.

You're like, how do you lift the veil of white hate? And the reason for not wanting to do it was because i was afraid of it and that's the reason to do it yeah so we were able to have really extreme open nervy conversations about white racism and these groups that are popping up. With who, Will and Antoine? With Antoine, it happened very fast. It was, I don't want to do the movie.

Oh, so that's what you started talking about. And then I was up all night and I just started spiraling as you do. And as written the script, the character was a southerner, very flamboyant, Cajun, big mustache, a lot of extra hate speech, very colorful character on the page. And I called him up on the 4th of July.

Yeah. I just said, you want to lift the veil? Let's put him in the Midwest. Let's take him out of the South. Yeah. And let's explore how a man learns to hate he's like i'm game and let's go ask those questions yeah so we just started sharing news articles look at george floyd right look at the and there was this line in a book that we shared called

without sanctuary about the lynchings in america and you take the hanging man out of the foreground, you see all these kids and white folks. Smiling people. Smiling people. Yeah. Like they're at a county fair. Yeah. And there was a line, there was an essay in it,

in this book. I forget who it was. It wasn't Frederick Douglass. It wasn't James Baldwin. But it was a line that stuck, which was relentless matter-of-factness of racial violence. Relentless matter-of-factness. So let's get into that. Why do we keep seeing this?

Let's explore that. And we just wove those so then I could be in service. That was how I could click in. It's not about doing this colorful. Well, it was interesting because it seems like you tapered the character a little bit from somebody, you know, he was a thoughtful person. He wasn't a caricature. He didn't strike me as, you know, flamboyant in the way of a sort of evil dandy. Right.

The trope. Right. So if we're going to lift dandy. Right. The trope. Right. So if we're going to lift the veil. Right. Take, we've seen it. We've seen the racist Southerner. Well, not all Southerners are racist and not all Northerners are civil rights activists.

Right. Where my grandparents were. As Jews, when they came, they saw a lot. My grandfather, my father, my nana marched with Martin Luther King a month after Selma in Boston. He would picket Woolworths. Well, that's what progressive Jews did. That's what we did.

Yeah. And that was another reason for not wanting to be a part of the film. And then I realized if we can invert it, put the words of James Baldwin, Frederick Douglass, and talk about white fear into the mouth of the man who's doing these things, we can get rid of the trope. Yeah, it was kind of an interesting tightwire act because you didn't overplay that guy. It wasn't a caricature. You know, you didn't overplay that guy. It wasn't a caricature. You know, he was like a sort of like meditative, you know, kind of thoughtful and, you know, quiet force. It was interesting the way that was scripted, that your backstory, you know, to how, you know, your heart was broken and the evil came in.

We worked on that for months. one monologue yeah before it was it was a lot of uh sexual violence and and uh bill our writer was game to collaborate and the thesis was if you're collectively we we we all got on the same page we're saying okay when you're born are you a, okay, when you're born, are you a racist? Are you an anti-Semite? Are you born that way? And if you believe that a baby is not born that way, if you come in pure and you're taught that? Yeah.

How? How? Yeah. Let's look at that. And we just massaged that into the fabric of the character we see now into a man who learned to hate from his father and carries on that but in such a specific way because like you know that that that story of a man learning to hate from his father like i mean

that was depicted pretty fucking well in america history x very well you know with the backstory of you know that scene with the kid and his father. You're right. And you could see that way. But this way was, in your character in A Man's Space, was more insidious because there was a fundamental soul-crushing heartbreak there. Yes. You know, the kid's goodwill, the kid's primary caretaker.

His friend. Yeah. I mean, it was so concise, you know, in the way that you handled it as an actor that you didn't, you know, you told the story, but you didn't explain the story. You just, you know, shifted from telling the story to, and that's the way it is. You just shifted from telling the story to, and that's the way it is. If we can talk about and ask the question of where does violence come from, you say, okay, why do people act out in violence? They're afraid.

But seeing, I think Fassel sees the writing on the wall. The great question is, what if they return the favor on us? Can you imagine? Yeah. What have we done? And by taking responsibility for this and that mindset is we have to keep them down. Have to keep them down. So if we can pose those questions within a film,

a viewer might, it's cloaked, but it might provoke a conversation. That's the best thing you could hope for as an artist or a filmmaker. Especially with this stuff, because like even myself in some of the interviews I've done lately and some of the reading I've done lately is that I am painfully ignorant of black history in this country, modern black history, and in the arts. And it's exactly what the current sort of entitled white culture is trying to censor. These books that they're banning are books about black history. These books that they're banning are books about black history.

These histories that they're trying to push aside are our responsibility as Americans to this. And then when I find myself saying things like, I had no idea, even if it's about movies. I had Elvis Mitchell in here talking about movies, right? It's like, I didn't know about these movies. I always thought they were too campy, but they're not. They are expressions of a community that found a way

to make them against all odds. So, in terms of provoking conversation, I mean, that's, you know, like, when I watched Emancipation,

you know, I didn't know what to expect, you know, because, you know, sadly, you know, as just a movie guy, it's like,

you know, how, is it going to be like 12 Years a Slave? Is it going to be like 12 Years a Slave? Is it going to be like Django? Can I take it? Can I handle it? But, you know, Will Smith can act the fuck out of things.

Yes, he can. And, you know, you guys both showed up in that thing, you know, with, you know, full hearts. And it was, you know, it was pretty incredible. I think Will's done his finest work in this. It's astounding. I didn't see Will Smith on set. I saw a man who was just deep in. It felt like, for lack of a better word, prayer.

Everyone was in service of this. Walking on those plantations, we filmed on the plantations that's a hanging tree that's still up where they hung human beings for the color of their skin it it's in the ground you feel it when i went to auschwitz to study and research for the survivor you feel it you go through those gates you touch the rails where six billion yeah are brought in just like you feel that it felt very similar on the plantations in our own country that scene is is one of the finer moments of bullets hitting you played it well he played it well you know and then you know where it came from it was it

was a satisfying moment i'm glad it was satisfying yeah i was sitting next to my mom in the premiere or right you know my mom and dad are there yeah and the crowd uh erupted in applause it's like mom i'm glad to share that with you but But I mean, how did you guys, did you and Will meet in terms of process? I mean, what was, did you guys just show up and do it? We just showed up and did it. Yeah. He came with his work, you came with your work, and that was that. We didn't say a word to each other until the last day, six months of shooting.

Not a word. Not a word. And it wasn't planned, and it wasn't going in with some actor-y idea. Like, this is, I'm only, I'm not going to talk to Will Smith. Yeah. That's going to be, and you're allowed, you're allowed to do anything you want. Sure. Yeah, cut.

Oh, you're going to your trailer? You want to eat? Yeah, sure. You want to craft services? Yeah. You want a smoothie. Yeah, cut. Oh, you're going to your trailer? You want to eat? Yeah, sure. You're going to craft services? You want a smoothie? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, just really try, yeah, try the quinoa.

Yeah. No, I just walked in on set. You feel it, an incredible set. Once again, working in a work camp with enslaved people. I know, I noticed that

right away after watching that the survivor i'm like here he is he's back in a camp man i mean give me that cop buddy yeah it's time for the comedy pal maybe we should do one yeah i'm ready okay let's talk to oran yeah i mean let's go oran has got one of the greatest sense of humors I mean he's he's yeah and one of the finest writers working today

Orin Moverman I just he's yeah I'm ready for a comic you definitely need a comic I could use one yeah

you could use one yeah okay well it was great talking to you pal likewise when's your when's your

when's your show out the special the special I think we're hoping for spring, maybe February. I just looked at a director's cut.

Feel good? Yeah. I do, you know, I talk a lot about grief in it and I talk about, like I did a joke, I do an Auschwitz joke in it,

believe it or not. Yes. Well, no, I talk about like the idea of humor coming from profound darkness. Like for me, it's necessary because it disarms it and it frames it in a way that I can handle. And I say, there must have been some hilarious people in Auschwitz.

And people are like, what? They're shocked. I'm like, come on. They were all Jews. You can tell me there wasn't one guy that's sort of like, you're going to watch Murray tonight? He does all the Nazis. It's hilarious. He's the best.

You got to. But there was. There was. Of course there was. You read that Primo Levi book. I mean, it's all just shy of like, you know, someone doing schtick. I mean, there was a million different ways that these guys tried to. Did you read that in preparation?

I did. It's kind of astounding. And it's in The Survivor. There's the hat joke. I used to tell that joke. Not on stage. It's one of my favorite jokes. It's one of my favorite jokes. It's a great Jewish joke.

It's the best. And we need to laugh. And we have to laugh in darkness. Yes. And the funniest thing is most jokes of a certain type and a certain era for probably five decades, all the jokes are Jewish jokes. They're all Jewish jokes. This is how we made it in this country, writing fucking jokes.

Got to make it somehow. Let's go have a cigar or something. Let's go have a cigar. something. Let's go have a cigar. Good talking to you. Likewise. Ben Foster. Lovely guy. The Survivor is on HBO Max

and Emancipation is on Apple TV+. I enjoyed that. Hang out for a minute, people. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats, get almost, almost anything.

Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations,

how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Three years ago tomorrow, January 3rd, 2020, I talked with Brad Pitt and Leonardo DiCaprio for an hour at the Arclight Theater in Los Angeles. That's not even open anymore. God, it's been three years?

Jesus. Listen to this. We're with the great Marc Maron. How are we going to? You're so nice about me. Dude, I'm a fan. He really is. I'm a fan.

I remember him talking about you on the movie. You were going off. Oh, I'm a fan. He really is. I'm a fan. I remember him talking about you on the movie. You were going off about my show. I love this show. I've seen it three times, the entire series. It's my happy place. To see you miserable makes me not

feel so bad. That's what it's all about. I'm carrying the burden for others. You really are yeah and i look but i just love how you i think i told you this when i bumped into you how you you'll like suffer some minor injustice in the world yeah from another yeah have it out with them yeah you suffer no fools yeah and then you invite them back to listen to your to your new turntable or something like we're equal now we're all humans again yeah i well i think that's an attempt i don't know if you have that problem where i'll act like an asshole and then

and then you kind of claw your way back into someone's life and hopefully they'll forgive you for it see i thought you were justified yes yes i did i did i thought you were speaking for all of us and then you and then everything's okay everything's okay usually until it comes back later point is that's a fun episode one of the last big ones we did before covet hit it was a different time people go enjoy that for free in all podcast feeds if you've never heard it it's episode 1086 and if you want all episodes of wtf ad free go sign up for WTF Plus. Just click on the link in the episode description or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF Plus. On Thursday's show, I talked to Colin Hanks. And in memory of the great Bo Diddley, whose birthday it was last week,

I will play guitar for you now. Rest in peace, Bo Diddley. Rest in that groove you gave us. Thank you. Thank you. boomer lives monkey lafonda cat angels everywhere yeah