WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1400 - Andrea Riseborough

Episode Date: January 12, 2023

Andrea Riseborough can't lie. She's terrible at it. But she believes that trait helps her as an actor because there's no hiding her emotions. Marc can attest to this, having acted opposite Andrea in To Leslie, but she's been at it since she was nine years old doing David Mamet plays with other kids. Marc and Andrea talk about her background in theater, how Mike Leigh gave her a charmed entry into film, and how she's personally confronting the current challenges of film creation and distribution. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Be honest. When was the last time you thought about your current business insurance policy? If your existing business insurance policy is renewing on autopilot each year without checking out Zensurance, you're probably spending more than you need. That's why you need to switch to low-cost coverage from Zensurance before your policy renews this year. Zensurance does all the heavy lifting to find a policy, covering only what you need, and policies start at only $19 per month. So if your policy is renewing soon, go to Zensurance and fill out a quote. Zensurance, mind your business.

You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea and ice cream? Yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats, get almost, almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region.

See app for details. Lock the gates! Almost almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. All right, let's do this. How are you? What the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck Nicks? What's happening? How is everything all right?

How's you and yours? How are you and theirs? How is youicks what's happening how is everything all right how's you and yours how are you and theirs how is you and what is happening man this state is uh underwater uh down here in southern california a lot of rain i didn't see my house is still here there there's been some menacing water in the streets some rivers and streams where there once were roads are still roads, but a lot of water. My heart goes out to anybody that's in a massive disastrous flooding situations or had accidents or, you know, what the bad stuff, but down here, it's just a lot of fucking water. Anyways, in my house, I don't know about down my block. Maybe I'm being totally selfish. And I got

to be honest with you. I'm grateful for the water. It's not natural water. Nothing seems natural anymore. It's just dumping out of the sky. Maybe I'm projecting, but it just seems that any weather event, if it is an actual event, is somehow extreme. And this has just been a lot of water. Outside of panic and sort of kind of going into a mild depression because of the grayness and the wetness. I'm happy. I'm always happy when it rains in Los Angeles. I'm thrilled, actually. And I have to hold on to that. So I don't so I don't drift into a rain based depression, though it has let up. It has let up and maybe there'll be more. I do know I'm going to have to get new rain gutters. I'm probably going to have to get a new roof. But this or The Death of Stalin or her Black Mirror episode.

She's a astounding actress, a brilliant actor, actress. Can't you just call everybody an actor now? How does it work? She's amazing. And I talked to her. I don't know that I realized. I don't know that I realized I don't know when I got into to Leslie that I understood not the impact of the movie but what I was really getting into and it's probably better off I didn't really think about it that much other than should I do the movie or should I not do

the movie in the middle of peak COVID and I was also kind of still pretty devastated with a sense of grief and darkness and there wasn't much going on in the world, but I was really resistant to doing the movie because it just seemed like a hassle. This is the weird thing about me, I guess, and acting is that I didn't set out in my life to, I don't make acting my primary focus because I don't think I could hack it. And I never thought I was good enough and I never had representation. I'm not even sure I had an agent for about 25 years. I think I had people do my manager favors, my manager at the time,

but I don't think I really had anyone representing me. And I went on like four auditions in 20 years. But getting into Leslie, I mean, I knew Andrea was a great actress, but I don't know. I just, I don't know if I put things in the proper perspective. It's getting a lot of attention right now. It's getting a little bit of a push from a lot of fellow actors for her to get on the docket for an Academy Award nomination, which she certainly deserves. And, you know, I don't think when I got into the movie that I realized just what it would become obviously you never know but I'm not even sure I realized just how amazing and well thought of she

was you know I was out of my mind and all I knew was you know I get this call from this director and he wants me to do the movie and I'm'm like, I don't know, man. And then he enlists Chelsea Handler to start pestering me. And there was really no reason why I shouldn't do it. It was only two weeks, three weeks, or, you know, my shoot was like, I don't know, 12 days. I don't know. But it's the middle of COVID. I think I'm still in some sort of PTSD around it.

Like, I barely remember doing it, you know? I just remember that I was nervous about the accent and I thought to myself, if I'm going to do acting, I should take some chances. So I did it. I did an accent. I did this Texan type of accent and I showed up emotionally and I was present and I listened. But the odd thing I think about, you know, if I'm going to be honest about whatever acting I was doing, I knew that my character, despite whatever backstory I put in place for the character or what was going on in the movie, I knew that my character, both on screen and off, was there to support Andrea and her character.

An almost immediate, natural codependency was established. I don't even know why it happened exactly. And it was perfect for the part. And it was also part of myself that I don't even that I don't really cop to all the time. I just know that when I got on set and we started doing scenes that my character is fundamentally a codependent guy that wants to help this woman who's tragically submerged in alcoholism and wants to help her. in alcoholism and wants to help her. Now, obviously this guy is not naive, but yet he still looks past a disastrous situation to help this woman. And I just felt that right away. I felt it for Andrea. I felt in a sense that my job as an actor was to support this woman in in this work and i knew that right away i wasn't told that but it also fit perfectly well with the characters at hand like i was concerned

about her but look she was totally into her trip but i just like whether she completely knew it or not and i think it she did in in the scenes yeah i was completely concerned it or not, and I think she did in the scenes, I was completely concerned and deferring and totally kind of codependent with Andrea and with Andrea's character and my character. So I guess what I'm saying when I think about the acting is that, I mean, I don't know if I would have been that way naturally. And I don't know if it was because the character was naturally that way, but I did find it in myself to show up for her as a character and as a person. It just, it all kind of mixed together. I don't know, man. I think I did all right. People seem to think I did all right. People seem to think I did all right.

People love the movie and they think she's astounding in it, which she is. But I think that my friend Brill put it correctly. He texted me. He's like, you know, I went and saw 2 Leslie and the first third of the movie is just all Andrea. And he was like, you know, dude, is just all Andrea. And he was like, you know, dude, that performance was beyond comprehension. It was so fucking good. And I was concerned. I was worried for you as the movie went on and you hadn't arrived yet or you hadn't appeared yet.

My friend Steve was concerned. He was concerned that how is Mark gonna fit into this amazing masterful performance and he was surprised he was he was complimentary and he said it must have been like being in the ring with tyson now i didn't really feel that you know i don't I don't really know what I felt. I just know that when I'm in the movies that I am pretty present in the scene. So I wasn't thinking about how great she was doing. I was just thinking about how do I help her not as a, uh, an actor, but also as a character. And you know, what is my line? You know my line? What are my boundaries in this relationship? And these weren't really things that were happening to me. There were things that were

happening to the person I was playing. And I didn't even know how that was happening. I didn't know how it was transpiring. I can't even explain it. But I did know that in my personal life, I was, you know, in grief and also tired of isolation and we're on set and everyone's wearing a mask in between shots. The only people that can't wear masks are the actors while they're shooting. There was no real hanging out. Craft services wasn't even fun. The trailer wasn't fun, In between scenes were just masked up and visored up and it was all pretty uncomfortable. But there was something about that that lent a sort of urgency to the scene at hand. It was almost like we were the only ones who had the freedom to engage like regular people used to engage. In the movie, during the shooting, when they said

action, whatever, whatever's going on with me and the other actors, we are the only people that were enabled to live regular lives for one take at a time. So maybe there was something about that, about the excitement of that, or about the shock of that, or the nature of that, that we were actually almost doing something forbidden by engaging without masks intimately and close to each other in each of these scenes. Maybe there was something that just electrified that movie partially because we were doing something radical at that time just by engaging like regular people in a movie. It was just a hell of an experience that I barely remember just because that entire

period of COVID and for a year or so after Lynn died, it just feels so almost hallucinatory, almost like an illusion, just like, I don't know if it's from PTSD or just, again, I've been talking about this. My, my, my nature is to just engage with the present pretty heavily. And then when I walk away from it, unless it makes a profound impact, um, I don't remember it as anything other than an engagement. But I do remember there were definitely moments where I'm working with Andrea on this movie, to Leslie, that were pretty great. And pretty, you know, when you do a scene,

like there's a scene where I talk to her at the picnic table, and you, when you do a scene, like there's a scene where I talk to her at the picnic table. And you realize when they say cut that you've landed in something. That something happened there in that special space of a scene being shot. And it just felt, it felt true. And they say cut and you're like, wow. Okay, man. I was in it. She was in it. But it was a real honor to work with her. And I'm glad that so many people are coming around to the movie. But she's pretty humble and she's the real deal. And you can kind of listen for yourself

when I talk to her now. And to Leslie, I forgot to mention this, is now available to buy or rent on most video-on-demand platforms like Apple TV and Prime Video. Intimidating. It was more intimidating to have this conversation with her than it was to act with her for some reason. Acting was a lot easier. This is me and Andrea Riceboro.

You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea and ice cream? Yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost, almost anything. Order now.

Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. See you at Pretty Tales. talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. It's so weird with acting, though.

There's so much out of your control. Everything. And you can do whatever you do, and you still don't know what. You can walk away from it feeling like, I did great, and then it's like garbage. And you don't know why or how. Yes. Or you do. Yes. I've said this a million times every

every single time i i think that i'm doing something very well i know it's my worst ever work because because why the fuck am i thinking about that you know what i mean but but even after i don't think so yeah i can't i can't watch half the shit that i do i just i can't watch half the shit that I do. I just, I can't. Do you watch everything you do? Well, since, for the last 10, 12 years, I've been producing things. So for that time, you know, out of necessity, I have had to watch myself. And sometimes I've been in it and producing it at the same time. Right. When that happens, of course, yes, I watch it, you know. Yeah.

And you go through the whole process in post and then to a distribution level and you become so familiar with that performance in a really strange way because you're both producing it and the sort of physical meat vehicle that the character's sitting on. And you see it's sort of an out-of-body experience after a while. You have to detach yourself somehow, or it just happens naturally. But if I'm not producing it, absolutely not. Really? I mean, I suppose back to going from the inside out. But, you know, when you're a child, you look at a baby, and they look through these, their eyes are like portals into the world,

and they look with no self-consciousness and they can stare at you for six or seven hours, you know, and they have no, nobody's grabbed a fig leaf, you know, everybody, there's, there's just a complete lack of self-consciousness, that observation, that being totally present. And in a sense, as divorced from that as we get, we spend the rest of our lives trying to get back to it, I think, in a way, you know, in adulthood. At least for a moment. You can't really enter the world naked.

No, but desperately trying to just, to just have an unselfconscious experience, whatever it is, whatever it is. That's right. And so much of adulthood, so many of the lessons in adulthood are about that, about just really being connected to yourself again, you know, in some way. Yeah.

Trying to get connected to something. Right. Whether it's yourself or something else. Right. I really developed quite a strong objective opinion or perspective about what's going on. Yeah. Not even me particularly, the character or, you know. But do you ever have that moment where you're like, I could have done that differently?

Only if I'm not lost in it. So you make no mistakes if you not lost in it. So you make no mistakes if you're lost in it. But if you see yourself come out of it, even if you were the only one who knows for a moment in something that makes the film. Yes, then we'd have to do it again. But I always know that from the inside anyway. So, you know, I don't need to watch. You make that choice. But you've never had that experience like when you're watching something that's already done, that's already in the can. Well, a strange thing is I've never played anything with my own voice or with my own physicality or whatever.

Ever? No. I dabbled in it recently, which was a horrible experience. Really? Well, that's kind of interesting. I mean, what was the dabbling? which was a horrible experience. Really? Really? Huh. Well, that's kind of interesting. I mean, what was the dabbling? What happened?

Well, all of which is to say, I think that because of that, I'm afforded a little bit of distance, if you know what I mean. Sure, yeah. So there is a... And you know that. I can be taken away a bit by the story if I do have to watch myself.

Right. Imagining that perhaps I'm somebody else. So what was this thing that you experimented with being you in? I produced something recently with Fremantle that had been in development for quite a long time. Is it with your production company? It wasn't. I independently was part of producing it.

We make film. My production company makes films. But this was a sort of episodic miniseries. I'm less familiar. I'm much more familiar with film and theater. And I feel much more comfortable there. So. What makes it different, a miniseries?

Just because you keep doing it? I mean. I mean, it's such a large question. It's fantastic when you have one director, I think. Or maybe two, but a stretch. And there's one clear, creative vision. I don't really enjoy the process of people coming in and out and the doors spinning around. So that was happening?

No, it wasn't happening at all. It wasn't happening at all. But, you know, it's kind of difficult to talk about it. It's like I think you work with people and you trust them. You know, you and I trusted each other. You and I trust each other. And I know that whatever sort of goes between us or what happens between our characters sort of remains in that world of our characters. Yeah. it sort of remains in that world of our characters. Yeah.

But when you are developing things sometimes with people, they want to put your story into the story because it makes it a more interesting quilt. Or they think it's going to be more authentic. Uh-huh. And actually, I think that ends up feeling a little... Uncomfortable. A little bit like... and actually I think that ends up feeling a little uncomfortable a little bit like a little bit intrusive

very intrusive you know of course you bring all of yourself to whatever you do whether it's standing in front of many people and making them laugh or creating this hybrid of you and something else. Yeah, yeah. You're your tool.

Yeah. Well, we are our own tool in all of this. You can't avoid that. Right. Innately, you're going to, you're the fabric of it, you know. Yeah, yeah. But I think it's wonderful to have some space between who you are. Yeah.

And what you're exploring at work, just like anybody would have in any industry. Oddly, you have it, usually. I mean, a lot of people think they know me, and they know me to a degree, and my comedy is very personal, and what I'm doing here is very personal. But there's still 23 hours a day where I'm having a life and I'm processing feelings and emotions. They're not theirs. And there are some things I keep to myself. Not many, but there's a few. Those things when you're reading Terry Pratchett on the loo.

You know, like the really private moments. Yeah. Well, that's not that low to the private moment. No, it's not really. But, yeah, but there's definitely, sure, there are things things that you naturally no matter how much you put all in into anything i think you do seek on some basic level to protect yourself a little bit in terms of you yourself self certainly and also to you know to keep developing yeah as a person it's very it's very odd.

People who've had to develop in front of the world and so many people do now with social media. I'm not on social media, but so many people do now with social media. Their entire persona or avatar or that horrible, detestable word, brand

has been in relationship with the world. Yeah, and a lot of people are so conscious of that, and that's a choice they're making. You know, I guess I'm on the other side of the arc of sort of like, how do I pull out? You know, I think I'm about done. Yeah.

And, you know, I got involved with that stuff, but I was never really conscious of a brand or whatever, but I am conscious of oversharing, and I'm putting a lot of stuff out there. But I think that it's its own thing and that a lot of those people, if they're huge or they're famous already or they have a career, I'm not sure where that comes from. I imagine it's not totally their own choice, but they're being told to do that to stay, you know, in the mix or relevant. You know, but some people who are, that is how they're starting their career. I think it's very deceptive, that idea of, or the concept of remaining relevant in this very, in the length of the universe, the shapings of a fingernail in time.

Whatever that is. Everything's so transient. And, you know, relevance, what is it, 10 minutes these days. But philosophically, that takes some sort of existential maturity to really kind of frame it in that, like, you know, look, none of us are really

that important. It does, but we have so many examples, don't we? We have so many examples. Of course. Even the Egyptians, you spend time in egypt and you think yeah there's one of two of these people who've come through and they there are literal gargantuan monuments to their yeah spirit yeah it's mean what happened there was meaningful right right where it's meaningful and meaningful, and that does have value. That has undeniable value. Sure.

And it's also, it has, you know, it's a geographical reality. It's a structure. Whereas, like, social media, it's just a burning heap of nothing that just disappears every day. Do you know what I watched the other day? It made me laugh so much. It does every single time i watch it for your consideration oh yeah yeah oh my god it's just so the movie yeah it's just so fucking funny but you know that just the idea that that on on the on the just the sniff of a fart of some sort of nomination

nobody even gets nominated i think in the movie but just in a sniff of a fart, which is how I see social media. Everybody loses their minds, their faces, you know, any connection to reality. Well, that's that sort of weird, like, it's totally ego-driven, you know, where we live in this sort of weird malignant narcissist culture. It's innate, and everybody's looking to connect somehow. But there is this weird distanceignant narcissist culture. It's innate. And everybody's looking to connect somehow. But there is this weird distance there, too. It's like people live online or they live, you know, they don't even have to use their real name.

They're like, it's something that happens in an emotional moment that goes out into the whole world. But I wonder how really connected anybody is to it. I mean, some people are because they're addicted to it. But ultimately... I think we're in a lonely time. Yeah. I do.

A very, a very. Wah, wah. Yeah. But a fully chaotic and highly motivated and informed lonely time. Desperately lonely time. Desperately and elaborately lonely. Deeply connected and disconnected all at once it's true right absolutely and for so many for all of the good reasons that us being connected you know

there are so many good reasons to be connected it's so important for most people in the world to be able to be connected and then for the ones who have connection coming out their ears and all of the advantages, it's probably not very important at all for them to be connected. It's not a question of life or death. It's not a political necessity. But what does connection mean? It's sort of interesting because when you act or when I act

or when we acted together or when I go on stage in front of people, my life is sort of like I don't have a work environment unless I'm doing something or unless I'm doing this. But it always involves real connection. You can't, with what we do, you can't kind of like sleep through it. Like, you know, there's, and also like in life, I just, I guess what my brain did when we were talking about it is that like when we're in real trouble, it seems as if people can't identify that real connection in real life or that becomes, it doesn't register the same way. Or it's not enough or it becomes boring.

That, you know, this compulsive engagement with this hyper real and all these social media platforms that's a sort of you know juice but it's more of an addictive juice but the actual because it's it's a little menacing

to be with real well it's also sort of a replacement for community in a sense isn't it sure yeah and everyone has a different relationship

to community some people have no interest in it whatsoever and that's completely fine and some people do have a are very strongly

connected to some sort of community but the feeling maybe to replace sort of community. But the feeling, maybe to replace the word community with something else, just the feeling of connection and having perspective. Yeah.

Well, you must, you must have it a bit if you're not engaging with any of that shit. Well, I mean, to me, that feeling is hope. Yeah. And the opposite of it is hopelessness, if you know what I mean. Sure.

The electric hopelessness. The sort of like frenetic hopelessness. I think so. But I think the amount that we all work now, whichever industry or walk of life you're in. Always working. So much of life is consumed with work. Believe me. I think about that all the time.

It's hard to not have a very insular experience of life anyway. Right. Where do you got the time? What does that mean? What is community? Going to that supermarket? Basically. Saying hi to the guy.

Trader Joe's. Yeah. That's where it begins and ends. But when you started, I mean, where did you grow up? Newcastle, northeast of England. Is that a pretty place? It's a beautiful place. Yeah.

It's one of those places that thrived in the Industrial Revolution. It's been through many, many incarnations. And it was Scotland, then England, then Scotland. It's a borderland. So the people are hearty and resilient and warm and loud. But it's a very, very cold place. Cold. Just chilly.

Just chilly. Right there on the North Sea. Yeah. It's silvery. You know, it's the fabric of the place is, all of its colors are gray and silver

and purpley. I love that. It's magical in many, many ways. But could it be depressing? well, it has that, it almost has a feeling

of Detroit. Wow. In the sense that it had this burgeoning industry during the Industrial Revolution. Yeah. Nature has sort of reconsumed that industry.

So there's a lot of factories and buildings. Dead machines, dead factories. Many, many things. It's been rejuvenated massively at the minute, which is wonderful, but also I do feel sad that we're losing some of those incredible, I don't know, they're like testament. Yeah, there's strange.

Ghosts of the industrial revolution strange uh like uh leafy car parks you know yeah yeah car parks with trees in the middle of them uh we're losing a lot of those and there's and there's a lot of development going on right now there and your people there still yeah my mom and dad are there and my sister's in London. And my sister is a brilliant, she does improvisation and comedy and she's a brilliant writer. Oh, yeah? Yeah, and she's just funny as fuck. Oh, that's great. She's the only person who's actually made me spit out water at a table before.

Older, younger? She's younger. Yeah? She's younger, yeah. Just the two of you? Yes, yeah. And we've got quite a small family. My mum and younger? She's younger. Yeah. She's younger. Yeah. Just the two of you? Yes. Yeah. And we've got quite a small family. My mom and dad are both only children. Oh, really? It's quite unusual. How does that, how does that manifest itself emotionally? What do you notice about that? I think a lot of separate worlds between the four of us, you know, I just remember

growing up having a lot of sort of fertile private time in my mind oh yeah oh like an only child strangely perhaps yes huh because i talked to somebody who was like whose parents were both um uh i don't know if they were adopted or they were foster or they didn't have parents orphans you're reaching for that word yeah it took me a while the parents were both orphans so like how do you come in and he's a famous comedian so how do you come into knowing how to engage with a child you know i read something that uh an actor who i who i'd known and not worked with but known in the british theater who a very very actor, who passed away now, sadly. Both of his parents were deaf. Right.

And he talked about growing up in sort of in total silence, really. And that's not how I grew up. Actually, the soundtrack to my growing up was probably Hollywood. You know, was probably Hollywood. You know, my dad is a huge old Hollywood enthusiast and his mam sold tickets at the theater after the Second World War

and so he used to go from school to there and watch all the films Like in the 30s and 40s and that kind of stuff? Yeah, it would have been like 50, it would have been 1950 probably when he was doing that.

1950 to about 1955. How are you with the very old movies? I find that as I get older, I can handle them better. I watched one last night, an old John Garfield movie. I love them. My dad and I, our tastes do cross. Although, you know, I'd say he's sort of more old Hollywood, more mainstream old Hollywood. You know, such an aficionado and knows every last name.

From the 40s and 50s? He's a car dealer. You know, that's his profession. He sells cars? Yeah. But just loves being in the cinema and loves that experience. And I perhaps lean more toward European cinema. Oh, really? just a loves being in the cinema and loves that experience and I'm I perhaps

lean more toward European cinema oh really yeah I wish I knew more about I wish I was more learned in European cinema

well yeah I think if you I think if you find it for yourself it's it's very there's a huge great difference, isn't it, between having one of those incredibly culturally affluent upbringings where you sort of handed all of the best things first and made very aware that those are the best things and you should be working towards those. Whereas if you find them for yourself sort of haphazardly and accidentally with lots of bumps along the way

I'm glad that I did that because it feels like a very personal discovery. Yeah and you have your own kind of you can put together your own point of view around all this stuff. Absolutely. It's a blueprint really. It's a formative blueprint for your own development.

And you've made choices, and either your dad sort of turned you on to some stuff and you were able, as time went on, to push back a little because you found your own things. Absolutely. And then you find people in your life, as you move through life, that you respect and they tell you about a thing,

and you're like, oh. And then you can sort of associate that thing with that person and that shift in your thinking because somebody inspired you. Absolutely. Absolutely. Like, you know, thanks, Dad, for Humphrey Bogart and thanks, like, Sixth Form College for Tarkovsky. You know what I mean?

I'll take it. Yeah. So, like, do you remember which of those four movies were the first one to sort of make you go like what the fuck is happening in the world i think the whole world of um not just european cinema really but i mean i think anything that wasn't an english language film um and that And that was because perhaps there are so many, when you speak more than what we're so, you know, to have English as your first language is such an extraordinary blessing and massive curse because it cuts you off from being able to understand many things, including things like different types of code switching culturally and all the different...

A language is so much more than just words, isn't it? It's sort of philosophically and it's a mindset. philosophically and and and it is it is a mindset um and so perhaps that was the thing right that i found most fascinating about about that so many doors were open i get it that you realize in in a moment how limited you are you see your own limits yeah exactly and and that and and that there's so many more worlds outside of your perception that is limited by your language, whatever it is. It can go all the way to spiritual, everything, cultural, spiritual, psychological. It's all tied into something myopic. And once you realize that, you're like, holy shit.

Yeah. Big world out there. realize that you're like holy shit yeah big world out there and i mean i i can't even imagine having a relationship with film or theater where where i was only interested in seeing things in my own language yeah i just i can't even imagine that now do you speak other languages i mean dreadfully you know really dreadfully can you understand other languages yeah that's good i can yeah what like french and italian well a bit niche my best mate speaks cantonese and we used to work in a chinese restaurant together so so i do understand cantonese when especially when it shouted at me you know quite loudly and yeah if if some yeah

uh and french you know i understand i have have that awful British thing with speaking French, which is that my other half speaks French. He's beautiful, so eloquently speaks French as his first language. And so I just feel like a total idiot, really. You know, a passe la ponte, you know, with my awful. I can't apply any of the tools that I have in my profession, you know, to actually. Yeah, no, no, no, because I'm a dreadful liar. I'm just the worst liar.

Yeah. Yeah. Just crap at lying. Really? Which is perhaps maybe my only strength in acting. That's weird because usually, you know, I think a lot of actors think that's their strength in acting is lying not mine

I start sweating or pretending I get but I think my imagination is very strong so the belief that perhaps

I'm somebody else is not too far of a stretch right but to actually lie about something day to day tough

you know I mean that's good. It keeps your soul clean if you can't lie. It does. I'm actually, I've just been sent to French, I've just worked with some wonderful French directors. Uh-huh. With Catherine Nerve, which was amazing, which is why I have no hair, because my character was going through chemotherapy.

I was wondering if this was a wondering what kind of choice it was. It was a character. It was something to do with the character. You're working with Deneuve, did you say? Yeah. Oh, wow. We finished a couple of months ago. What was the relationship in the film?

She plays my mom. Oh, wow. And my character has moved. My character's American, but her mother is French and they're estranged and my character feels largely set aside by her mother

in many different ways This sounds like a real uplifting movie Well it's it actually is really funny because it's catching the nerve Morgan Saylor and I, and about 200 chickens. Huh. So.

Chickens. And strangely, Martin Scorsese's producing it. So it's a real odd combination of things. So was it always understood that you were an actress? Was your sister, were you both doing that kind of stuff since you both seemed to end up there? sister were you both doing that kind of stuff since you both seemed to end up there i was i had the great fortune of growing up in a place that had the first free youth theater in britain which was established in the 60s it was called the people's theater and it was a wonderful wonderful theater they used to do lots and lots of classical theater and mammoth and just it was somewhere to kids doing mammoth oh yeah

oh god yeah yeah we butchered it i think i'd love to see like a 14 year old's version of glengarry glen ross yeah or american buffalo yeah we butchered we butchered a lot of stuff pinter no stone was unturned that's great great. But I started there when I was about, the first play I did there was, I was nine years old. Was it Pinter's birthday party? I was playing, you know, Ralph Fiennes. I was playing his great, great, great, great, great, great, and a couple times more grandma. The play was about her. He has this, as you can imagine,

incredibly prolific family. The Fienneses are vast and sprawling in terms of all the incredible things they've done historically. Is that true? It is. And for example, Sir Ranulf Fiennes was an explorer. Oh, I see. So it had nothing to do with rape. It was just that it was part of his family.

It was part of this long Fiennes lineage. And Cecilia Fiennes was the first woman famously to ride England's side saddle. Okay. And there was a play, rather lovely play, in which I played little Cecilia. Oh, interesting. He's a good actor. Yes. Brilliant.

I just watched him in something, that thing with Chastain, where they go out to the desert. Oh, yes. I'm looking forward to seeing that. I just watched it. I'm not sure why I watched it. I watched it on the plane. He's very good. He's extraordinary.

And she's really good. She is. She's wonderful. Yeah. She's wonderful. So that's where you start. And that's their second thing together because they did Coriolanus. I don't know if I saw that.

Rafe directed it and was in it. Have you worked with them? No. A couple of times we have almost worked together and it hasn't worked out. That's a crap story, isn't it? A couple of times. It's going to happen. We're leading up to it.

It's just not been right. Yeah. It seems like you'll work with everybody eventually. I feel sorry for everybody now. No. So at nine, is that when you are smitten or get the bug to do it? Do you know it's your life from that experience? I think being in a dark room surrounded by lots of adults talking about literature is intoxicating in a way that most kids really aren't afforded that experience as a kid.

Yeah. afforded that experience as a kid. Yeah. And to be strangely treated like an adult or to have the same expectations that you would have an adult. Of course, people treated me like a child as well, but there was a sense of having to – I think you had a job. Right. You know, that you were –

And you had to act like an adult. In many ways. As best you could. Yes, yes, that you were. And you had to act like an adult. In many ways. As best you could. Yes, yes, in many ways. I imagine, like, when you're starting out as a kid, you're playing roles that were supposed to be grown-ups, and you can't really think, like, I can't do this, I'm a kid. Absolutely. So you just do it.

Which, in a sense, is what we're doing now, isn't it? Yeah. You know, I mean, we're still doing that. We are still doing that, but a lot of times it goes the other way. A lot of times they're casting people that are 90 to play 50. And you're like, you couldn't find anybody else? Is that name that big still that's going to draw people in? Yeah, I had a really odd career in that way because I started off playing Margaret Thatcher, one of the first things that I did in the UK.

TV? Yes. uk tv yes and it went it was a sort of a film that was on television and she goes from about 26 to 46 or whatever and i was 24 or 23 at the time um but then at the same time was also playing like 13 year old and something else right so you had that you were a blank slate. Well, just, it's wonderful. It's wonderful to be able to connect with those different times in your life. Ones that haven't even perhaps, you haven't experienced yet, you know, to imagine. It's funny looking back. I'm not sure whether I would have done it actually any differently. Yeah, I mean, I guess you can only get emotional. Well, I think there's some part of us that doesn't change that much emotionally.

You'd like to think so. But I think the core thing, you know, the core emotional wiring you have, I mean, you can shut it off and turn it on and stuff. But, I mean, to do a part when you're very young of a very old person, I mean, you can speculate and turn some things off and honor a script. But, like, when you actually get older, you're sort of like, I don't feel any different. Is there any incarnation of yourself that you look back and almost can't recognize? Definitely. Yeah. Yeah, because I don't know how, I don't know who the guy, I talk about it sometimes,

about the guy who was, when I started doing comedy, was running around doing one-nighters all over New England for, you know, in situations that were clearly terrifying and weird. And knowing the kind of person I was, I don't know who that guy was who got me through that shit. The thought of doing any of them again, it's like, I can't even handle it. I know. Walking into situations where you're like how does how am i even going to make this work i know i i think about that when i first left rada which was the drama school that i went to uh and the there were all these thank god different offers and and things coming in

dramatic arts yeah and i said no to so many things. And I had such a, well, clearly high opinion of myself that I shouldn't have had. But I had such a, so clearly knew what I did and didn't want to do. And I, in a sense, don't know whether I would have had that courage. Had I had those opportunities later on. So what were those like what did you know mainstream things that i wasn't really very interested in that were badly written and so when you got out of rata badly written and quite popular rata so like so when do you start going to that school is that like a four-year thing it's a three-year thing although they do

all sorts of different things now um but it originally was a three-year thing, although they do all sorts of different things now. But it originally was a three-year thing. But that's like your college? Yes, yes. And you get a BA. So you're doing all this sort of people's theater stuff. Yes. And are you being taught at that time when you were younger at all, or are you just doing plays? No, no, no.

In school all the time, you know, school like everybody else. And then after school, going to the theater and then, you know, either rehearsing or being in a production. But not being in an acting class. No acting classes. The class really being doing it. Right. So when did you have to audition for the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts? Yes.

Yes, I did. So you're pretty, you knew what you were doing. Do you know what? I did, yeah. So you're pretty, you knew what you were doing. Do you know what, I don't think I quite realized what I was doing until I looked at my application and I saw I'd been in 60 plays by the time I was 19. And I thought, oh, maybe I do actually, maybe I have some sense of what I'm doing here. Or at least I certainly seem to be enjoying this. Yeah, right, yeah.

You know, but a lot did go by the wayside it's such a what there well as you know it's just such it's such a you have to be so devoted but when you auditioned you probably had a level of of experience and some fearlessness at least to to feel confident yes and i suppose what i'm referring to by things going by the wayside is really everything else. I was academic, but I really had time only for plays. It was all-consuming, I guess. Sure, but the weird thing about plays, like you said earlier,

the feeling of being around adults who are intellectual and having intellectual conversations is that you know plays in and of themselves many of them are intellectual conversations in every in every way i mean so satisfying you know so like you know you're getting it all unbelievably transcendent as well you know i mean it just the magic of uh being in a different, speaking the words of a different time even. Yeah, for sure. You know, that kind of. That's got to be the 80% of the thrill of doing Shakespeare.

It's incredible. Time travel. Have you ever read. Probably not. You may or may not like this, but it's Peter Hall, who's a director I worked with when I was younger. Yeah. Very, very brilliant director. He wrote a book called Shakespeare's Advice to Players, which basically picks out in all of Shakespeare's plays the small hints that he's giving his actors because he was constantly noting them.

He'd take issue with the way that people spoke as words. Really? Pentameter, as an example. You know, it's got the five beats, et cetera. Yeah, I'm weird. I have an aversion to Shakespeare. And I've had people sell me it. But I still haven't embarked on reading it.

Well, when you read his instruction, the bard himself, when Hall directs you to the bard's instructions about how to actually speak his text, he's basically just saying, say it. Yeah. And I think anything other than that seems inauthentic, and that's where we all run into problems.

When you start trying to explain Shakespeare, you find yourself in a bit of a rut. Yeah. Or emphasize bits that don't need to be emphasized. Do you love doing it? Absolutely. I haven't done it for probably the longest. It's probably the longest stretch that I haven't done it for ever in my life is this last stretch. I just watched The Dresser.

Oh. When was the last time you saw that movie? Oh, my goodness. Oh, my God. For some reason, I kept. Quite a while. When was the last time you saw that movie? Oh, my goodness. Oh, my God. For some reason, I kept— Quite a while. Couldn't get that. I just had that thing in my head where Tom Courtney comes back into the dressing room

and Albert Finney had put on Othello Blackface. And he just turns around and he's like, wrong play. We're not doing that. Horrible. But the acting in it is—Albert Fin's beyond like anything I've ever seen before. I don't know if you remember it. He's a guy who's in the middle of having an emotional and mental breakdown, you know, in war-torn England running around with this Shakespeare company that's barely keeping it together. And he's the main actor and the leader of it.

And he's losing his mind. He's one of those performers, Albert Finney, who sometimes only really truly brilliant performers can give an absolutely dreadful performance because they're so committed to sort of what they're doing. Yeah. And that sounds an awful way to describe any of Albert Finney's work because everything is genius.

I'm just thinking about the one performance where I thought, how did that happen of Albert Finney's, which is when he played Poirot. I mean, firstly, I'm not entirely sure where his Poirot's from. He's Italian in some parts and then French and others, Belgian, Flemish. Which place is this? It goes all over the map.

What is it? It's in the film. The film, he plays, it's Murder on the Orient Express, I think. Oh, Perrault, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And everybody's in it at the time. Yes, yes, yes, I remember. Everyone and his mother is in the cast.

He was extraordinarily brilliantly bad. And only somebody as good as him could have been so, because he was so utterly committed to those 22 different accents. Yeah. But everything that comes out of his mouth comes from his toes. So you don't, you kind of don't care. That's one of those movies that should have been in and of itself kind of over the top.

You know, it's sort of like knives out. Well, interestingly, Ag christie said that albert finney was her favorite favorite poirot oh yeah she was in it and watched it in the theater huh maybe that was that was a spidey senses where she was picking up on his sort of just golden quality of acting uh-huh yeah i think it's an over-to-the-top genre really isn't it yeah yes it is all right so you get into the Royal Academy of Dramatic Arts. So what, what do you learn after being your own?

I mean, to be honest, Mark, everything and all at once, it seemed like, you know, it was. You were ready though.

I mean, just, I was so ready. Yeah. I had stopped doing it for a while before I went to Raja. What'd you do? I didn't think, just had lots of different jobs, working in a Chinese restaurant, as I said.

Learned some Cantonese? Yeah, yeah. But you knew you wanted to be an actor. I didn't know whether that's what I was going to do. So you were kind of bumming around, having a crisis, working in a Chinese place? Yeah, I mean, I wouldn't say bumming around. It wasn't an easy time, but it was a, but I'm glad I had it.

And so by the time I got to Raja, I really felt, you know, I already had my own place. I had lots of jobs. I, you know, I was self-sufficient. I sort of. Yeah. I was just ready to work and to learn. Had you been heartbroken? In my life?

Yeah. At that time? Did you go through a full arc of youth and you were sort of felt grounded in a certain amount of humility and acceptance? No, not really. I mean, yes, of course I'd been heartbroken. But, you know, that was like the least of my problems, really, to be honest. Well, that's good. I mean, it was fucking horrible.

Don't get me wrong. But it was, you know, I mean, you know, being when you're a teenager, I feel like being heartbroken is something that you can kind of almost, you know, at least at least your depression has purpose. Right. Yeah. It's a rite of passage has purpose. Right, yeah. You know what I'm saying? It's a rite of passage. Exactly. Yeah.

No. But when I got there, you know, it was interesting to see. We had many different people from many different walks of life in my year at college. And it was interesting to see how everyone, who was where everybody was, you know, some people hadn't made toast for themselves before right and um it was their time to it was their hedonistic you know it was their time to let rip and find themselves but there were some people they they kind of admit all ages kind of deal it's based on talent so you had people there that were may have been older as well and been through

some how does it work based on talent uh they're very, unfortunately, have lots of donations. So they're able to really choose who they want to choose. Yeah. And between about 18 and 30 is the, and they take on 30 people a year. Oh, pretty exclusive. Yeah. I mean, I didn't think I would get in, to be honest. I coughed a skin ball up in my second audition in the middle of a speech.

I haven't done it before or since. What? Exactly. I don't know. It was like a tiny ball of skin came from my throat. What? Yeah, in the middle of a speech. What does that even mean?

I was doing, I mean, I assume it was skin unless it was like a nut or something. I hadn't been eating nuts. I was doing Cymbeline. I was doing a speech from Cymbeline. And halfway through, I sort of, you know, like in Disney's Aladdin, where the camel spits out a hairball. Yeah. It was a bit like that, but smaller.

Yeah. And that came out. You thought that was going to nix it. Obviously said sorry. Said sorry and carried on. And then toward the end had a conversation about thinking about, you know, musing on whether Shakespeare was a woman, which didn't go down very well. Yeah. And then, yeah, I didn't think I was going to hear anything back after that one.

I thought, well, I got to the second round, but fuck it. Yeah, but they can see past that. Yeah, apparently. Yeah. So you get in there and like, how does one hit the ground running at that place? It was so wonderful. I mean, I think everybody who goes, it's a rite of passage, isn't it? Any kind of education.

Yeah, sure. Institution or whatever. But it was so practical and hands-on and there was nothing theoretical about it and it was like having a really really intense six jobs at once so you you just practiced and practiced and practiced speech movement dance shakespeare and and you know and and being in a wheel of different productions all the time. So constantly being able to hone your craft, you know, in lots of different ways. And then being given tools by people who were working in the industry as dialect coaches or, you know, voice coaches.

So you really got the full picture. Methods, teachers. And that was just, it was invaluable. But I don't think it's for everyone. I think for me, I wouldn't have, I can't imagine those three, I had a fantastic year and I can't imagine those three years being spent with any other group of humans

than the ones that I spent them with. It was wonderful. Did you ever try doing comedy or improv or any of that stuff? Yeah, I did a lot of comedy. Before or after? Pretty early on, actually. After? Well, my first foray into film, well, Mike Lee was my first experience with film,

but my first sort of larger role in a film was more comedic. But at the same time, I was also at the RSC at the same time. So that was kind of as I was having this quite surreal experience of. So you went from RADA to the RSC? I went from RADA to the National and then from the National to the RSC. And the National is the sort of wonderful, wonderful theater in London. Yeah, I've been there. I saw Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf there.

Did you? At some point, yeah. Who was it? Can you remember who it was? It was many years ago. Many moons ago. I just saw Zach Kinto in Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf. Did you see that production over here?

Uh-uh. He was absolutely extraordinary. Yeah. of Virginia Woolf. Did you see that production over here? Uh-uh. He was absolutely extraordinary. Yeah.

Because for the first time, it was the first time I'd heard the words again because Richard Burton's performance is so vast and incomparable. You know, and I heard so many things

that I hadn't heard before. It was really wonderful. I think that's the amazing thing about a great piece of art in general is that it kind of grows with you. It's a matter of your perception or interpretation, and it kind of grows with you. It's great. It does. Yeah, the theater thing is like it's got to be the best. I didn't spend my life trying to be an actor.

And when I do it, especially in films or in TV, I don't necessarily find it as satisfying as I'd like because of the waiting. But I know what it's like to perform. And I imagine like, you know, locking into a play, it's got to be the best. It really is. Yeah, because you're in it man you're just perhaps the harrowing thing is the repetition for six months you know depending on what's happening in the play i guess that's a different kind of repetition like it's one thing to be in a trailer for 10 hours and do a scene you know you know 50 times and as opposed to like doing a show every night for 50 60 days days. And even just in a really

reductive way, I mean say like 10, 20 years ago and it's still happening now where, you know, doing a lot of classical theatre and playing a male or a female role is a completely different experience, you know.

I remember an actor saying to me years ago oh god just love doing a play it's fantastic get in there first act break second act courtroom scene straight down the pub and me thinking wow that's really not the i've just lost my husband uh I had my hand chopped off, been, you know, often the woman's role in theatre is to emote. Right. And to do that over and over and over and over again. Yeah. Sometimes is taxing.

And that's changing, of course. Everything's changing. Yeah. Hugely. And we're also, which I think is fucking brilliant, everybody's playing every type of role now. Yeah. Which has just been such a long time coming because we're all humans, aren't we? Sure.

Speaking, to speak to Shakespeare, all the parts were played by the same demographic, right? Yeah. So why shouldn't we all be able to play everything? I mean, in some way. Sure. But. So when you're at the Royal Shakespeare Company, how many Shakespeare plays do you do? Now I'm just backtracking on my words there.

I'm saying we should all be able to play everything. Okay. I don't really believe that. What I meant was in classical theater Yeah. and in theater Yeah.

we none of us are Elizabethan humans. Yeah. So why not give everyone a chance to Sure. If we want to keep

that kind of theater alive that kind of verse alive why not give everyone a chance to be able to explore it? That's what I mean. Yeah. I don't think we should all be able to play everything, actually. Yeah, it seems to be going a different direction. Well, yeah, that's actually not,

I don't think that's helpful at all, actually. Right. You know. But I think the idea that I'm getting is that there are roles that were designated, and it seems in some classical theater that men were playing women and women – that there was some – that the humanity of the play should be available to any human. That's exactly it. And beautifully put.

Good. But how many do you do when you're there, like Shakespeare plays, when you're at the company? It depends. I was doing a shorter run because I was there with the Peter Hall Company, and we were doing a little bit of it with the RSC, a little bit of it was at the Theatre Royal in Bath. Sometimes he does plays in town, in London. But often you do them in rep. So at the National or the RSC, you'll do three plays in town in London. But often you do them in rep.

So at the National or the RSC, you'll do three plays in rep. And it's a wonderful experience. It's an experience where you feel like, you know, a band of players. It's something familiar. Community. If you're out of drama school,

it's community. Yes. We talked about that earlier. That, you know, the idea of community is very real in theater. Well, I think it's hard for performers often to be cut off from their lifeblood, you know, like for you or I, we're used to an audience or having that kind of, it's a special rapport. It feeds you in some way, whether you're aware of it or not. And it's something that's a, you know, it's a spiritual thing. I mean, as much as anything else.

And when that's cut off, it's the thing about being a stand-up or an actor. You can't just stand in the street corner and try and make people laugh or do a monologue. You can. I mean, you can. It's called busking. People do. People do. But it's difficult.

Sure. You know, there are certain circumstances that that it's it's a bit difficult it's a bit different than picking up a guitar yeah yeah for sure mainly because you're just fucking irritating if you're standing doing that yeah yeah trying to get people hey come on over look at i'm doing a thing but uh but i think one of the difficult things when when you leave an institution like that or a company like that or you stop doing the shows or you get off the road is that you lose that connection. Yeah, I make sure I try to keep hold of it. Yeah, try to keep it.

That's why I go do these shorter sets and stuff, just to make sure that part of me, the muscle that is in constant connection with an audience is still active. The constant connection with an audience is still active. I remember when we were doing Birdman, Zach would go and do evening. He would go and do stand-up after a day of shooting. Galifianakis? Yeah. Where were you shooting that? New York.

Because he doesn't do it that much anymore. But sometimes he comes around because there's some – I think he has a very profound love-hate relationship with expectations of a stand-up stage. Right. But it's funny, though. When he does crave and he does show up, it's kind of effortless for him. He's an incredible—I just found him to be an incredible person working with him. Yeah. So— Well, that's what—like, you've done a lot of interesting movies. So, whatever your choices were after you got out of, when you were sort of, when the world decided you were worthy of being elevated, we're going to deliver this woman into the great realm of show business.

Right, yeah. Jazz hands out. But you were, like, you protected yourself. I hope so, yeah. Jazz hands out. But you were, like, you protected yourself. I hope so, yeah. Well, I mean, like, you know, you said your first experience was with Mike Lee. I can't, that must have been life-changing. Well, yeah, and you don't want to throw the baby out of the bathwater, do you? You know, the things that I learned from that experience, it's important to preserve those things.

I'm sure you have the same thing. A few. With your, with with material with thoughts with meaningful things yeah people you've worked with and you know people that have inspired you yeah you know and i've met a lot of people now like i do take away some things but i mean what did you take away from with him because that was so early on so many things yeah many things um in many ways to stop being such a uh in many ways to stop being such a,

to stop doing as much work. Yeah. I'm not work shy. Yeah. And sometimes that just becomes counterproductive and, you know, more of a session. Overworking, you mean? Yeah, sure. Yeah.

I could see that. It's something that's valuable. But that and just a freedom. I think filmmakers like Mike have retained the sort of integrities, the stuff of dreams for most of us, really. And it takes a very, very strong character to be able to retain that. For a whole career, yeah. And to be very clear about what you do and don't want to put your energy into.

Well, that's a hell of a lesson to learn if you can hold on to that and make that your life. Yeah. You know? Yeah, I often feel so quite susceptible to just being dragged in lots of different directions. Are you? No. That's great. I mean, I have, but it's taken a certain amount of fortitude and I think just basic success to be able to say no as much as possible and make sure I'm not doing it out of fear. Right.

I think my problem might be if my heart gets involved or, you know, then I'm all in, regardless of whether it's, like, good for me or not or, you know, I should be, you know, maybe not all in. So, no, I've spent a lot of time sort of playing the lead in independent film. Right. What's, I think, sometimes what's distressing is that, you know, those anti-heroes, female anti-heroes or those anti-heroes who just aren't white dudes.

Right. White guys. Often aren't the,, white guys. Often aren't the, you know, only now are we seeing more protagonists that fit that bill. Right. In mainstream movies, you mean. And I have conversations like this

all the time as a producer. Yeah. But it's the sort of goodness and redemption and purity that's demanded of a female character that's not demanded of a male character. Right. To center a film around that, you know, and Shadow Dancer, a member of the IRA who ultimately is responsible for the deaths of many people, you know, and she's also a young mother. And so for a lot of people, you know, it's a difficult thing to wrap your head around.

Yeah. That said, I met many of those women who were in exactly that situation. Yeah. And so really it's just a reflection of life. And I think so rarely in cinema do we reflect life. Yeah. I mean.

Certainly not in mainstream movies. And the morality that the characters are held to or the sort of the moral standards that they're held to is so unreal. Right. So has that been your quest as a producer to bring more of that? In every way.

I mean, I think when you read something and you think, oh, that's extraordinary. Yeah. or it's a completely, you know, a writer-director who's just emerging and has not really had the right platform or spotlight or support. Yeah. And they've created an LGBTQ plus musical written in beat poetry, which is what Please Baby Please is, a film that we made recently. I made that with a brilliant writer-director called Amanda Kramer. a film that we made recently, I made that with a brilliant writer-director called Amanda Kramer.

Those things, I think for anyone, if they get to you, they make your soul sing, because it's something, when you share those pieces with people and when people see them, rarely have I ever heard the feedback when people finally do see these things of, you know, well, that wasn't fucking worth it. You know, it's always the feedback is always how extraordinary and why is there not more of this? Yeah, because like, you know, our perception is dictated by what is the most sort of hammered into us all the time. So when we see these smaller stories, you know, about people that live different lives or difficult lives or maybe are not happy ending movies, we've been sort of programmed to believe that those are somehow like require a different type of attention or are, you know, not, you know, they're going to be too heavy or whatever it is. Yeah, and just the,

you know, the narrow representation of every demographic or the misrepresentation of every demographic. The more voices that we get, the more,

the more varied voices we get, I think in cinema the better. It's definitely, it's true with everything. With everything. Yeah,

I mean, how, you know, would you rather have a bunch of white guys making up points of view or just get the points of view from the source?

But we also have an extra responsibility in our industry as filmmakers, I think, because it is such a privileged industry because there is so much

money flying about and, you know, the majority of the world is struggling at the same time. Sure. And whatever we put out there, even if you think about the film Gandhi. Yes.

But whatever we put out there, sometimes even unfortunately becomes historical fact, you know, in the most dangerous, insidious way. Yeah. So, you know, we have a responsibility in every way to not be just trying to fund people's second homes in Palm Springs. Yeah, to do the real art. Yeah, and to care about the details. Yeah. To care, to ask. Yeah. To put it in the right hands, to put it in the hands of somebody who has an experience of whatever the hell it is we're talking about.

So is that what you do with the production company? Well, the production company is, it was sort of born out of a bit of frustration really and me just really getting sick of the sound of my own voice moaning about you know the state of things and you can only do that so long before you actually just pull your finger out your ass and do something about it but um just sees a project from its inception you know through its development, the making, the shooting of it, and then sort of beyond distribution even. And it's a sort of financial cushion at all of those turns for a film that may, at any of those points

that I just mentioned, get lost. Yeah. You know, I'm sure we've both had that experience of being in something that you feel so proud of and it's just fucking, you just mentioned, Get Lost. Yeah. You know, I'm sure we've both had that experience of being in something that you feel so proud of and it's just fucking, you just think, God, I would love everyone to see this. And it's just a wall. It's happening now with our movie.

It can only be scaled by money. Yeah, it's like, it makes me not want to do things. Like, because I'm not, no, no, I mean, mean just as an actor because it's not really my bread and butter. And like I do get something out of it and I get offered a lot of these small movies. But there's like – it's not usually – a lot of times I'm just sort of like no one's – this is not going – I'm not going to put my life into this unless it has what you're talking about, deeper meaning, or it feels good to me. But a lot of times it's just so discouraging. Because most things, I talk to directors all the time. It's like they'll put five, six years into something, and it's like, where can I see it?

And they're like, I don't know if it's on right now. It's like it's terrible. The heartbreak is fucking, just the fact that I haven't seen most of your independent movies makes me feel shitty. Because I don't know about them. the fact that I haven't seen most of your independent movies makes me feel shitty because, like, I don't know about them. You know, I got to go look for them.

Yeah. And, like, our movie right now, like, you know, the fucking distributor dropped the ball

on, you know, facilitating something that would bring a lot more attention to the movie and it's just sort of like, one idiot's going to,

like, that happened and now this movie that's struggling with 100% Rotten Tomatoes scores that everyone should see because of the work you did, the work we all did, is now, you know, it's been hobbled by the people that are responsible for putting it out there. I think, yeah, I know.

I think the more transparent we are about it, the better. Yes. And what people don't quite understand is that there is not an equal, there's not equal footing for everyone. And that's not because of huge hundred million dollar publicity budgets. That's because there literally isn't equal footing. And we're operating in a system where everything costs something even to just submit your film to an awards platform. Yeah. And if people aren't aware of that,

as there always have been a few players that have a lot of power, and those always change, they revolve and change. But I think one of the most sad things is, and also dangerous things, is this assumption that we know what an audience wants. Yeah. I think that's one of the most. Yeah, but who, exactly. And who are those people that decide that?

What are the numbers? What's the mathematics? Most of the way it's just people that are afraid of losing their jobs. It's that constant conversation in our industry. You want to see something new, so you bring something new and they say, we haven't seen it before. Who's this going to be? Where's the audience? Who's attached?

Yeah. And it's actually, I think, a huge judgment on not just cinema goers, but consumers, you know, at large.

I hear so many times people saying there's nothing to watch when there's so much, as we know, so much stuff being made all the time. But that's because only these certain things get through, and I think people get overwhelmed and exhausted by the choices.

So someone has to guide them somewhere. They do, but it's the height of, I mean, it's evil. I mean, there are kids starving, you know. The amount of things that are being made and I think a lot of the time, unfortunately, things end up being background noise, you know. And then there's maybe 10, 20% that gets through that's like really fantastic quality. And that's wonderful. And one of the things that I absolutely love is that some of the great filmmakers like Iniri too. And I mean, there's so many like him now are being championed by those bigger platforms and being allowed to do what they want to do. Honoring their visions. I mean, I don't know if you've seen Bardot,

but it's... I have it. I've got to watch it. I think you... I'm really interested. I'm really, really interested to hear what you have to say about that, actually.

Yeah. You loved it? Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I generally like his movies. He's one of... I mean, just one of the best people I've ever worked with. Why?

He's so brave, so courageous, you know, has a strength of vision. And also he's a musician, really, in his blood. Yeah. So there's always this beat that I feel with Alejandro. Uh-huh. When you watch his films, when you're around him, when you... There's something intoxicating about his sort of zest for exploring life and psychology. Uh-huh.

His fearlessness. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, good. I'm excited to watch it. Yeah. But it was definitely exciting and an honor to work with you as an actor.

Oh, and I you. Well, I mean, I did. Yeah, my God. My God. My friend went to see it. My friend Steve, who's the director. Yeah. And he was like, wow, she was amazing.

And she's like, the whole thing. And he said, before you came on, right out of the gate, she was just doing this thing. And he was, and this is a guy I know since college. He goes, I was worried about you. Because you hadn't come on yet. And I'm like, is Mark going to be able to hold up? And he said, you did good. He said, it must have been like being in the ring with Tyson.

But I didn't feel that at all. I felt we did, you know, it was all pretty, I wasn't nervous or afraid of it. And, you know, I just felt like we showed up pretty well. I couldn't have wished for a better partner. Honestly, I couldn't nervous or afraid of it. And, you know, I just felt like we showed up pretty well. I couldn't have wished for a better partner. No, thank you. Honestly, I couldn't have. And I felt so, in all of the ways that Leslie feels seen, loved, accepted, and judged in an appropriate way by Sweeney, I felt those things straight away yeah

it was such it was natural it was just very natural I can't imagine it any other way well thank you I'm so happy I'm so happy

that this is the way that it worked out yeah and I hope more people see the movie it was great talking to you oh thanks Mark thank you for making the time

it was lovely talking to you you feel alright? yeah yeah I feel all right. I always feel like an idiot, but, you know, generally apart from that. I think that's probably a good sense to always keep in your back pocket. Yeah, to keep that fresh. Just remember you're an idiot.

Yeah, and everything is very fleeting. Nothing's that relevant. Nothing's that relevant. Good talk to you. Okay, that was me and Andrea Riceboro. Right? Right? She's pretty amazing, right? The movie To Leslie is available to buy or rent on most video-on-demand platforms or watch your screeners, Academy members.

All right, hang out for a second. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea and ice cream? Yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats, get almost, almost anything. Order now.

Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5pm start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in

attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5pm in Rock City at torontorock.com. Okay, listen. Listen up.

We've got something in the works for Full Marin subscribers. By the time you're hearing this, I'll have gone to my first wrestling show. So we've got bonus material coming up with my trip to AEW at the Forum. I also had the AEW owner, Tony Khan, and wrestler Chris Jericho over to the garage. You were paying some dues. Did you do those gigs that comics do, like hell gigs? All of them.

I did a kid's birthday party once for a hot dog and an orange juice. Really? That's my best payoff, yeah. But yeah, you do all those ones. I mean, I remember in Mexico, some of the places we worked were so shitty. I remember guy taking a a shower out of the back of a toilet yeah and he's like no it's okay it's clean water i'm like dude it's from a toilet like i don't

care how clean it is a toilet is a toilet so but they always had a ring they always had a ring sometimes there are boxing rings which are hard like this table right you're not doing any we call them bumps and not bumps of cocaine bumps or what you are the falls yeah that you take in wrestling yeah you're not taking a lot of bumps in a boxing ring because it's just too hard so you would just go out there and just pantomime and just fuck around because it's not on tv and there's 50 drunks in the crowd yeah get the hell out of there and get your 200 pesos and go home was there like ever nights where there was like 10 people and oh yeah yeah yeah the smallest crowd i think i wrestled was in Rimby, Alberta, seven people. Yeah.

And it's hard. Listen, I could wrestle in a stadium tomorrow in front of 70,000 people and be less nervous than wrestling in front of seven people. You've got to hold seven people. And you can see it. You see each person in the crowd. You actually get to know these people. I'm sure you've done the same gigs.

Like, oh, the guy with the dark hair is getting bored I better like do something and then there's the war against embarrassment because when there's

seven people there it's already a little sad it's terrible and the people that are there are embarrassed yeah everyone's embarrassed it's like we made

the wrong decision to come to the wrestling tonight same with the band sometimes you play it's like oh fuck not anymore thankfully but we played the you know the gigs with seven people with the band. Sometimes you play, it's like, oh, fuck. Not anymore, thankfully, but we played the games

with seven people with the band, too. That sucks also. I never understood it, but you'd go do the show, but when I'd get there, I'd be like,

you know what? Do you want to go? Do you want to just leave? You can go. I'm really, I feel bad for you, you're right. It's so embarrassing.

It's a little weird, but they always stay, dude. They do, and then once again, that's the real secret. That's paying your dues. If you can get a crowd of seven interested in what you're doing,

that's a hell of a talent to be able to have. Well, they're also, they don't want to hurt your feelings. If you walk a crowd of seven, even two of them, that's got to be worse. Yes. To sign up for the full Marin so you can get all the Wrestling with Mark bonus content, go to the link in the episode description and or click on WTF plus over at WTF pod dot com.

Next week, I talked to director Todd Field on Monday about tar in the bedroom and how he invented big league chew. On Thursday, I talked with Oscar winner Octavia Spencer. All right. Now I'm just like, I labor over this guitar, but this one was a little slack. But I played. I played it. Thank you. Thank you. guitar solo ¶¶ Boomer lives. Monkey and LaFonda, cat angels everywhere. Boomer lives.