WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1403 - Sarah Polley

Episode Date: January 23, 2023

Sarah Polley has a lot to say about memory, narratives and the stories we tell. That’s because she believes they’re all fluid, which creates a sort of moving target for a writer and director of films, as she is. Sarah and Marc talk about how this is represented in Sarah’s movies like Away from Her and her latest, Women Talking, and why she made a documentary about a particularly fraught and deceptive narrative from her own family. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated

category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die we control nothing beyond that

an epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel to show your true heart is to risk your life when I die here you'll never leave

Japan alive FX's Shogun a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney Plus 18 plus subscription required T's and C's apply.

Lock the gates! All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fuck, Knicks? What's happening? I'm Marc Maron. This is my podcast, WTF.

Welcome to it. I don't know why I feel the need to say that at every, I mean, you know what you, you press the button, you got the app, you got the thing, it got delivered. I don't need to tell you what you're listening to, but how are you? I, you know, maybe I do. I don't know. How's it going? Everybody okay? I'm not great today. I'll explain in a little while. Maybe. I just reminded me of me saying what you're listening to at the top there. Reminded me of years ago. I'm sure I've

reminded me of years ago. I'm sure I've probably told this story, but it always kills me. And it was just such a wonderful moment of ignorance, condescension, pettiness, that it just really never leaves my mind. Years ago, I guess it was probably, it had to be a year or two into the podcast,

and I was doing the Bob and Tom show up there outside of Indianapolis. Bob and Tom was a very popular regional radio show that went national. It was at one time, not unlike Alex Bennett's show in San Francisco, a popular platform for comics. A lot of comics were launched out of there.

A lot of comics were able to make either national or certainly regional careers for themselves from doing Bob and Tom frequently. Chick McGee, who was one of the guys on there, was very funny. He's got his own podcast. I think Bob just retired, and Tom is there. But this was, I think everyone was there when this happened. It was a very good morning radio show.

It was a very good drive time radio show. When drive time meant something, it was one of the better ones. There's still a lot of good crews out there. I have a lot of respect for drive time radio people. I've done a bit myself. But these are good radio guys. And I'm not being condescending or judgmental. I like doing morning radio. This is a couple of years into the podcast. And, you know, Tom was experiencing

a kind of a flurry of kind of, you know, tail feathers, kind of ego strutting. Because I was there and he wanted to school all these young podcasters. These guys who are untethered by any expectation financially. Broadcasting, you know, in his mind, I guess, you know, his mind i guess you know infringing on his airspace in the broader sense so he had he had a kind of school me and we were already kind of popular at that time but but he knew i was a podcaster and i was sitting there, and this was early on in podcasting. And this dinosaur of morning radio broadcasting, one of the greats, Tom from Bob and Tom, is laying it out for me. He's like, yeah, these podcasters, they don't know what you're doing. They don't know what they're doing.

You listen to them, which he hadn't. They don't know what they're doing. They don't know what they're doing. He listened to them, which he hadn't. They don't know what they're doing. They don't know how to do what we do. I mean, USC's podcasters, they don't even know how to reset. We don't know how to reset. We don't know how to, here, let me do some, I'll do some classic resets. Hey, folks. This is Mark Maron, of course. You're listening to WTF. Our guest today is Sarah Pauly.

If you're just tuning in, I, wait, I didn't even, I didn't set this up at the top. But our guest is Sarah Pauly today. She's a writer and director. Her new film, Women Talking, is amazing. You probably remember her as an actor in the movies like The Sweet Hair After, Go, Dawn of the Dead. She also wrote and directed the movies Away From Her, Take This Waltz, and Stories We Tell. And she's Canadian, which I love. I'm a big fan of her work as an actress.

The Sweet Hair After is a devastating movie that I've watched many times. Atom Ergoian, the director, is an odd and brilliant filmmaker. But her movies, away from her, amazing. With Julie Christie. And I just watched Stories We Tell in prep to talk to her. I watched Women Talking, which I should see again. But just amazing. Honor to, I've been trying to talk to her for years. And she's here.

So I drifted away from the story. So now I'll do a reset. Hey, what's up, folks? If you're just joining us, this is WTF. I'm Mark Maron. Our guest today is Sarah Pauly. These guys, they don't know how to reset. We don't have to, Tom.

We don't have to. They know what they've tuned in for. They've chosen it. They didn't find it on the dial. They're not coming in the middle. For those of you who are just tuning in, I was talking about the Bob and Tom show, which I did many times as a comic

and once or twice as a podcaster. And when I first started podcasting, Bob told me I didn't know how to reset. So if you're just joining us, I'm talking about resetting. This is a great moment. Great moment. Great comedy store hallway moment. A couple nights ago, I was at the comedy store.

Oh, my God. I'm going to have to go to the bathroom. I'll explain that to you later. So I'm recording this on Sunday. I guess I should go ahead and tell you. It's a weird transition that I'm recording this on Sunday and tomorrow, which would be today for you, like probably right now, I'm getting colonoscopy Suprep, to give myself diarrhea on purpose. Yeah. Big day.

No eating. Intentional diarrhea. This is one of the great things about getting older is that you get to look forward to this every eight years. It's been eight years. Had a nice clean one back in the day, eight years ago. Oh, that was another great story. At the surgery place when they put me under, and I swear to God in my recollection, there's just a lot of people around. I don't know why.

It was not a hospital. It was a surgery place, a place where they do minor surgeries. minor surgeries. I just remember like there was people, a lot of people going around and I was on, they'd put me on the, uh, they, they popped the IV in with the anesthesia and, you know, and I'm about to get a colonoscopy. And I just remember some guy coming in to deliver someone's lunch. I don't know. Anyway, so comedy store back hallway. Uh, I'm just, uh, I did a set in the main room and I'm hanging out and Dice walks in and he's taking selfies

with people, hanging around. Dice, Andrew Dice Clay, who you got to love. You just do. I know he, you know,

he is what he is, but it's funny. It's funny to see him now. It's funny to see him now. It's funny to see him. He's funny. But it was one of these moments where I'm standing there, I'm talking to him, I'm asking him about his tours going, this and that. He's like, you know, I go out to do the, you know,

sometimes I do smaller clubs, smaller clubs. Other times I do theaters. But I don't, it doesn't matter to me if they pay. So I'm talking to Dice and we're just standing there. He's a very big guy. And a guy comes out of the main room and he's going, he's coming back from the bathroom and he stops. He says, I'm sorry to interrupt, but Mark, that was a great set. And I really needed to tell you this. I mean, I don't, uh, I was going to email you, but I didn't, but I just want

to say your podcast, you know, changed my life and for the better. And I just, I wanted to thank you for that. It's been very important to me over the years and, you know, great set. And it's good to see you. Sorry to interrupt. And he walks away and Dice goes, wow, that's nice. You know, I don't get that. What I get is you got me in trouble. You're the reason I was kicked out of the house. You're the reason I got kicked out of school. Yeah, I don't get the you changed my life much. It's very funny.

Hey, if you're just joining us, Mark Maron, WTF. And I told everybody before the dice bit that I have a colonoscopy today. So that gets you up to speed. Sarah Pauly's our guest. And I was just talking about Andrew

Dice Clay, who you guys remember from the 80s, some with excitement, others with anger and judgment. Oh my God, I'm gonna have to go to the bathroom soon. Hey, this is a good heads up for you fellas, for anybody. Try to take care of yourself in terms of going to the doctor if you can, which I hope you can. Go get your prostate poked. Go get your ass examined. Get a colonoscopy. I'm not excited about it. Man, I'm talking to people, guys my age, and it's just, it sneaks up on you, man. It's just all of a sudden you realize like, wow, I'm talking to people and they're talking about dying and they're talking about friends dying. And I'm my late fifties. Did I mention that? 59. I feel all right, but I don't have, you know, I don't, it's just, life goes on. It just becomes this continuum.

And you don't always realize like, oh my God, I haven't talked to you in a while. How'd you become 10 years older than me? Or look it, that's mean. But I do realize like, I don't think I really registered how old a lot of my peers are or people in my business until like, because now I'm 59. And I was talking to Kit yesterday and it was like, she was talking about Paul Giamatti. And I was like, he's got to be my age, right? Close, right?

Paul Giamatti, 55. There are people in their 40s that I thought were my peers. And it's not until you get old and you start going like, sure, I know that guy. I came up with him. How old is he?

44. What? What happened? How did he stop aging and I got old? I'm all right. Everything's all right. I'll let you know

how the colonoscopy goes. I will. I watched women talking and was blown away that, you know, it is seemingly a period piece, but it's not. It could be happening today. It takes place with a group of women in a barn talking about a mass rape of many of them by the men in a religious sect and what they're going to do about it. And it deals with a lot of the issues that are relevant today in terms of rape, sexual abuse, abuse of power, and fear. And it was a great film. And I watched her other movie, which was a documentary that really kind of blew my mind. That was called Stories We Tell. And I watched her other movie, which was a documentary that really kind of blew my mind. That was called Stories We Tell.

And I've seen her first film, I think she directed, was away from her with Julie Christie about people, dementia, Alzheimer's. And she was in many movies as a younger woman, the sweet hero after, devastating movie. But she's got a book out called Run Towards the Danger, which is essays. That's available to you as well. But I was just, you know, I've been wanting to talk to her for a long time.

And she's here. So this is me talking to Sarah Pauly. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer

becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Are you self-employed? Don't think you need business insurance? Think again. Business insurance from Zensurance is a no-brainer for every business owner because it provides peace of mind. A lot can go wrong. A fire, cyber attack, stolen equipment, or an unhappy customer suing you. That's why you need insurance. Don't let the,

I'm too small for this mindset, hold you back from protecting yourself. Zensurance provides customized business insurance policies starting at just $19 per month. Visit Zensurance today to get a free quote. Zensurance. Mind your business. The reason I said I had a Canadian morning was I have, when I go up there, I drink Tim Hortons. I'll drink it. And I decide when I'm up there, like, this stuff's got something in it. It's making me crazy. And I love it.

So I bought, like, a huge can of it. I love Tim Hortons. Yeah, I wear out of it. Do you know what I mean? It's not good. But it's sort of like Dunkin' Donuts here. Yeah. It's amazing. I wear out of it. Do you know what I mean? It's not good, but it's sort of like Dunkin' Donuts here. Yeah, it's comforting. But I think it gets you jacked up.

Uh-huh. I think there's a caffeination thing. It gets you ready for hockey. Exactly. It gets you ready to beat people up with sticks. Yeah. I don't do that. It just makes my brain on fire.

So, all right. I watched movies. I had to, I wanted to get up to speed in a thorough way. I didn't watch too many of the old acting movies. Oh, you watched, oh, my movies. I thought you were just saying I watched movies. And I wondered if you were smelling burnt toast. I watched movies. I wear shirt. you were smelling burnt toast. Yeah. I watched movies.

I wear shirt. I'm having a Horton stroke. No, I actually watched The Sweet Hereafter with my girlfriend recently because she'd never seen it. And it's a devastating movie. But, well, let's start with that. Did Ergoian have any impact on you as a director? Yeah. I mean, I think it was the first time I was really interested in filmmaking was watching him work.

So I'd been working as an actor since I can remember, I think, since I could speak. Yeah. I'd never been so captivated by what someone was trying to do. He's kind of a, you know, he's a guy who commits to his vision. And it's not always easy and it's not always palatable or understandable immediately. So how did that impact you? Well, and also I think he strives to have a deep understanding of his collaborators. And that included me when I was a 17-year-old girl.

And I don't think anyone had ever been really that interested in what was going on in my brain before and how I thought about things and perceived things. So I felt like a true collaborator. And I suddenly realized that, you know, making films or being in films wasn't necessarily the most superficial job in the world, which is what I thought at that age. I was a political activist at that age. I thought making films was kind of this dilettante-ish, you know, bougie thing to do. And I was really cynical about the whole enterprise. And then seeing Adam work, I went, oh, this is actually a way of talking about real things and having real conversations. And that was huge for me. It was pivotal. like you were part of an artistic process. Like, you know, the word storytelling is kind of a buzzword now. You know, we're storytellers.

But we are. I understand that. But no one ever spoke like that 10 years ago. It also sounds so boring. And then you hear, there's a lot about telling Canadian stories in Canada. We need to tell Canadian stories. And I always just think,

and you hear the barn door creak open. And you're just like, I don't want to sit through whatever the storytelling is. Right. It is. Please God, no. Yeah, it isn't an action word. But the movies before that, you didn't feel in any way that you were part of something artistic?

Or you judged yourself harshly? Because you were good at it. Yeah. I mean, I know that I hadn't only worked on bad stuff. I'd done a lot of bad stuff, but I hadn't worked only on bad stuff. I worked on a lot of television that I was pretty cynical about as a child actor. I think I just didn't realize that people would be using this medium to explore ideas and having meaningful conversations and even ones that had political resonances. But were you capable of that when you were 10 or 11 or necessarily thinking in those terms? I think I was in those. I was kind of an obnoxious kid.

I was like one of those little precocious kids who's not at all wise but can seem really smart. Me too. Yeah. You're just volunteering to be bullied when you're like that. Kind of, you know? Because I was like that too, the kind of know-it-all kid. Yeah. There's a vulnerability to it that's annoying to you. Well, and a lot of child actors never outgrow it.

Like, I don't know if you've ever met a grown child actor who's still trying to impress the adults. Like, they haven't quite read the room that they're an adult now. And they're still doing it. And it's like, we don't know you actually, you're 40. Yeah, you can. So we know you know big words. Yeah. It's okay, you should.

You should know big words. I so want you to name that person. But so when do you find yourself like politically activated and what happened to do that to where something like being in Adam's movies would make you realize that it was a different way to express yourself? When I was a teenager, I was really involved in this direct action group. It was an anti-poverty organization and mostly dealt with homelessness and housing. And that was sort of my world as a teenager.

I had quit acting. And then Adam, who I had worked with once before, asked me to do the suite hereafter. And so really that was the first job I'd done in ages. And I thought it was a one-off and I was just going to go do this movie and then I'd go back to my life as an activist. And then that just led me to be far more interested. And it was so interesting, that film, because it was about a community and about,

I mean, it's about so many things, but part of it is about greed and the monetizing of grief and somebody coming in and taking advantage of this community that's breaking apart and what community means and what grief means. And I mean, there's so many things that are explored, but for me, that was so interesting, the way he wasn't being didactic and he wasn't hammering over the head, but there was actually, I don't even know if he would describe it this way, but for me, there was this very political thing he was doing in that film as well. Absolutely. And the foundational emotional element of Ian Holm's character and his

relationship with his daughter and the incestuous relationship with your father playing against each other in the midst of that. Because you're dealing with greed, but you're dealing with grief in these very kind of twisted ways. It's a mind-blowing movie. How the fuck did he get that school bus shot? I mean, how many- I think it was, it must have been CG. Really? I think so.

Back then? Wait, no, was it? I don't know. I feel like I was in my trailer. Because there was part of me that's sort of like, that must be like Buster Keaton in the general. You only had one shot at blowing up that bridge. I thought in my mind, he had to get that right that one time.

I really don't want it to be special effects, but you're probably right. Well, I think that he did put the bus out on the ice with a bunch of dummies in it. Sure. Because I think I got one of the dummies as a wrap present. Oh, okay. The one that was you? That freaky. Yeah. And then I think that it going into the ice must have been Suji. Yeah. Well, it's,

do you find it, I watched, I haven't watched the Julie Christie movie in a while, but I, away from her, right? Yeah. But I remember it. And it seems like it's sort of weirdly prescient in terms of what you've evolved

in terms of thinking about, like with the concussion and other stuff that you were, something interested you about the deterioration of memory, you know,

decade before your own experience with it. Yeah. I don't know why. I mean, I think I keep returning to the subject matter of memory

over and over again. And the questioning of memory and the subjectiveness of memory and what stories get told about their past and who they're by and what interest they have in telling that particular story in order to either justify or validate who they are or what they've done. they are, what they've done. That's just, it does seem to be for me a kind of a recurring theme. And I think if you have a recurring theme like that in your work, it's probably something that you're not completely conscious of the reason for. You're probably trying to unpack something subconscious. Well, it's scary because my father has begun this dementia process. And what happens alongside of whatever curious, however curious you are about memory is like, what's the point of any of it? When you watch it go away, there's something so fragile about that where you're like, well, fuck, that's, it all just goes away. So if you're not thinking about the future or implanting something in your children or in culture about stories, it's, it's just, no one's going to, it's gone. It's just gone.

And it's really gone. And it's so fragile, right? Yeah. Is that what happened when you got hit in the head? Yeah. Did you? Well, my dad also had dementia, and that was. Which dad?

Good question. Yeah. The dad who raised me had dementia. Oh, he did? Yeah. had my good question yeah um the dad who raised me had had dementia yeah so he so i ended up kind of living through that after having made the film about in fact i kind of identified really early having done so much research about dementia that he had it and um and no one believed me and then he went for this test test with the clock, there was like this test that he went to and I couldn't make it and my husband went with him. Yeah.

And I got this, you know, text from my husband saying, oh my God, we have a problem here. And basically what happened was my dad had passed with flying colors. seemed to be a lapse in logic or memory, which was that he was claiming that his daughter had made a movie about dementia and that she had been nominated for an Oscar for it. And my husband was like, no, no, that really happened. And then I got thrown under the bus. Then the doctor was like, oh, well, when people know a lot about one disease, they tend to see it everywhere and diagnose everybody.

So it was years between that and him being diagnosed. Really? But I just saw it kind of coming because, you know, I did know a lot about it at that point. I'd read so much about it and thought so much about it for that film. Why? What was it about that film? I mean, about making that movie?

Yeah, I'd also been in the sort of nursing retirement home environment a lot with my grandmother. So it was an environment I was really focused on and interested in. And I just worked with Julie Christie as an actor. And I read the short story and I just went, I have to see her play this part. It was amazing. She's an incredible human being. Just an expansive, brilliant, amazing human. I just watched McCabe and Mrs. Miller again. Oh my God, it's so good. I keep watching it. It just keeps revealing more. Like this time I just watched McCabe and Mrs. Miller again. Oh, my God. It's so good. I keep watching it.

It just keeps revealing more. Like this time I came out of it, I'm like, it's about the hat. The whole thing's about the hat. It's the hat and that jacket. I'm not sure what it means, but I know it's a hat. So I watched Stories We Tell, and it was jarring to me because I was i didn't know anything about it i don't i'm not great at research and uh so i'm just watching it i'm just like let's check it out and i'm completely buying the archival footage i didn't know i didn't know the trick and i'm just like

wow who is shooting all this this is crazy that they had all this archival footage and then so the turn in it where you're standing there in one of the archival footage, like, what the fuck is happening? So I felt betrayed somehow, to be honest with you. Sorry about that. I apologize. But the device of it. So, like, it feels fairly, and I'm sorry we're going through all these movies, but we'll get to the new stuff. But it feels like this is another thing, a defining thing about your point of view creatively around stories we tell, stories we hear, stories we think are true, right?

So you create a kind of perfect fiction cinematically around this this documentary unfolding it's a half and half trip so the vision of that is kind of brilliant so what what why'd you do that i mean i think it's so interesting how needy we are with our narratives and how we kind of present these narratives or stories about ourselves to explain who we are or within a family how certain everyone is of their own version of something and yet no one's version really lines up with anyone else's yeah it's a story as old as the hills is that people remember things differently but for some reason that doesn't necessarily lead us to have an appropriate skepticism about our own versions of things. And so ultimately, I think I was really interested in this story being told by a chorus of voices

instead of one. And the idea that every time you feel you have a narrative, it gets ripped away from you, which I think is the honest and true experience of an aware life is that we hold these rigid narratives and they're actually very fluid and flexible and they disintegrate and we're unwilling to let them go. And I think it's also, it's funny when you go back and going back to the idea of storytelling and this idea of narrative is, it can be really dangerous to do that.

I mean, I think one of the reasons you feel really relaxed in Canada, and I think about moving this, we don't have a really strong narrative about our country and that's good and bad. I mean, it's hard for us to fight for things there sometimes, I think, because we don't have this strong story. And we don't have a story of having had a revolution and throwing off colonialism, right? I think that's probably kind of bad. But at the

same time, you know, a narrative can be harmful, a narrative can make you too sure of yourself, a narrative can tell you that one side's make you too sure of yourself. A narrative can tell you that one side's right and the other is wrong, or these people are more and these people are less. The whole idea of a narrative, I think, can be the most important thing in the world in terms of survival. And it can also be the most damaging thing in the world in terms of enabling one to do harm or to negate another's version. So I think even though, you know, in Stories We Tell, I'm dealing with it in a very kind of personal way, I think it's also just about the concept of narrative and storytelling and what that means, how important it is and the

harm it can do. Right. But through the course of it, you find out that your biological father is somebody else. And you kind of have, you explore out that your biological father is somebody else. And you kind of have – you explore the relationship with him that's new and kind of in and out in terms of people wanting to tell their version of it or monetize it or express it. But I found the device of the archival footage and the way you cast it was kind of seamless. of seamless. So the choice to do that, you know, in relation to what you're talking about in creating that cinematic narrative, you know, what were you trying to do there? I mean, I think I just had this sense of wanting the rug to be pulled out in the same way that it was for me. I mean, I had a story about my life that got pulled away from me. That it wasn't your real dad. It wasn't my real dad, which by the way, it's so funny. I've a story about my life that got pulled away from me. That it wasn't your real dad.

It wasn't my real dad, which, by the way, it's so funny. I've been thinking about this lately. My biological father won a Golden Globe for producing a movie in the 70s called Lies My Father Told Me. Yeah. How good is that? It's great. It's unbelievable. It's one of those things that makes you feel like, I don't necessarily believe in something beyond coincidence, but it seems like I'm on the right track.

Amazing. Yeah. Anyway. But yeah, so I feel like just that sense of the rug being pulled out, I really wanted the audience to have that experience, even in terms of the way we laid out information and the unpeeling of the onion so that you know you see this story about my mom and having this affair and this you know tension with her life and this love affair and what she was going to do it but it's actually not until like far into the movie that you find out actually she's also left another marriage before this yeah and there's been another divorce in which she's lost her children which completely informs the way she probably thought about and behaved in relationship to

this relationship. And you don't really, you know, you don't really give any identification of the siblings. Like, but two of those siblings you didn't grow up with, really. But you seem all to be close now. Yeah. In fact, my older two siblings are the closest ones. I didn't grow up in the same house, but, you know, John Buchan, who's my brother, is my casting director on all my films. I talk to him most days. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, and oddly, I'm close with my brother and sister, my oldest brother and sister, who

I didn't grow up with, their stepsister on the other side with their dad. I'm very close to her as though she's a sister. So we have all these odd kind of pathways to each other. So that is interesting that you chose to sort of reveal these things. So everybody has taken it back. But I still like, is there any actual

the matching of actresses to your real mom and the fictional mom is pretty close. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's really close. And I mean, what helps is my brothers, my casting director, casting my family.

So he knows every actor in Canada and he's already identified who could play everybody over the years. Yeah. And the guy who played, what's his name? Galkin? Yeah, Harry Galkin. Harry Galkin as a young man.

It was good. But there really is a moment there where you're watching and you're like, who's shooting all this? I mean, how could they have gotten Yeah, Harry Galkin. And then she played a character. So she looked at all my dad's Super 8 footage and the way he shot and what he focused on and how he moved the camera. And she played him, which meant she wasn't necessarily always going towards what the action was. She'd go towards what she knew my dad would be interested in. And the idea was sometimes if a moment was too convenient to have been filmed, it would sort of happen in the background of something else she was filming or she'd pan off of something and find that and lose interest and go away from it even if that's the pivotal shot yeah it had to feel like they were in character and then my editor mike munn also had to you know play the character of you know somebody trying to find footage yeah to tell this story but not convenient footage but you you intercut it with actual Super 8 footage of the time? Yeah. Okay. So it all matched up.

It's about 50-50 real and reconstructed. And when you're done with that, you know, the final product, like there was some sort of, you were making sense of something for yourself. Yeah. And what did you come out of the experience with after you saw the completed thing? I mean, it was an amazing experience because everyone in my family participated and everyone was supportive. And that wasn't, it wasn't without cost. I mean, things get said in that film that are uncomfortable for people and that were difficult for people to hear.

And somehow everybody kind of came out okay and supportive, which sort of shocked me. I don't think I expected that. I mean, I was nervous about it. I tried to be careful with people, but ultimately you're exposing a lot of stuff and some stuff that people didn't necessarily know. And I mean, I think what I really realized in making that film was that this idea of making a film that's told by a chorus of voices instead of one was where I wanted to head as a filmmaker. Well, which, you know, you do in this in this newest film. But but it's also about, you know, the nature of stories. Right. And the stories we tell us and this ourselves and the stories we hang on to and why we tell ourselves those stories.

But like but is is Galkin still alive? No. He and my dad died within two months of each other. Really? It was a very dangerous time to be one of my dad's. It was a very dangerous summer. So, yeah, my my dad died. And two months later, Harry died. So it was quite a thing.

Because that movie, you know, Harry seems okay. You know, he seems like, you know, he keeps it together. But your father becomes the sort of tragedy of that movie somehow. Like there was something about him reading his book for you and that actor coming out. And then just to see him kind of like he never really reckoned with it, it seemed, the loss. And I don't think he, outside of expression, you know, was totally honest about how devastated he was to find out.

Do you find that? I don't know. I mean, my dad was a really unusual guy and he did process and experience things differently than anyone I've met. And partly that was kind of the repression of an English man of that generation. And partly it really was that he kind of led philosophically into things before emotionally. And so he would kind of see ways that would seem to the outside world to be very magnanimous, but for him were just logical. Yeah. You know, why should it make a difference? Yeah. Maybe a different DNA.

Oh, perhaps the biggest tragedy here is that your mother felt she had to keep this secret, not that I'm having this loss. He had this incredibly generous response, which I think in somebody else I would think was a masking. And I just think he really did absorb and process things differently than most people I know. Huh. Was he a good parent? Yes and no. I mean, he was incredible in terms of really making you feel wonderful. Like I think, from a young age,

I had a sense that he was in awe of me as though I was a colleague of his or a peer of his that he looked up to. Like, from the time I was two. So that sense of, you know, you did a cartwheel and you have a parent say, wow. And it's a real wow. And just this sense of not propping you up

and making you feel better than other people, but a sense that you were precious and exciting and entertaining and loved. That's a, he was amazing at that. And I realize most people don't get a whisper of that. And so I do hold a tremendous amount of gratitude for that. In terms of taking care of everyday life and basic necessities in terms of physical needs or being responsible or being able to create like a clean, healthy environment to live in or take responsibility or interest in my

safety or clothes are terrible. Couldn't have been worse. Like really, absolutely negligent. I shouldn't have been in the house after 11. But I mean, it's interesting because would I trade now after years and years of therapy, would I trade that in for a more responsible parent who kept me better taken care of, but didn't give me that sense of wonder about the world and also a sense that I was inherently okay? Yeah. I don't know. I don't know.

I mean, and that's taken a long time. I think you have to get really sad and upset and mad about it. And I just think at this age, I'm almost 44, I wouldn't trade him. Yeah. Well, that's sweet. It's true. It's not, well, I mean. And I can see what the options are.

It's always healthy to see what the options might have been. Well, I have to assume that through the process of making that movie, you, like, the trauma of losing a parent at age 11, however you want to frame that through the process of making that movie, you like the trauma of losing a parent at age 11. However, you want to frame that it's real and has psychological repercussions. You know, you're probably fortunate that you had the siblings and at least an excited father or you could have really been hobbled emotionally. Yeah. I mean, I think it was. I would say. Yeah. So, yeah I think it was. I would say, yeah.

So, yeah, my mom died when I was 11. I would say it took a long, long time to be, to just feel like you weren't crumbling all the time or on the verge of crumbling all the time. So I don't think. Without somebody there to catch you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Which I don't think I felt a lot of the time growing up at least. But I do feel like, yeah, just that sense that both my mom and my dad for the time that they were there thought I was great. That's a big deal. Like the more I get to know people, the more I realize most people didn't get any of that, which is unbelievable. Well, you were acting already, right? So, I mean, they must've been excited. They were actors. Yeah. They were any of that. Yeah. Which is unbelievable. Well, you were acting already, right? So, I mean, they must have been excited. They were actors. Yeah, they were excited by that.

Did you have that from your parents? What did you feel from your parents? Like a sense that they thought you were, what was your feeling of their feeling about you when you were little? Well, I think about this stuff a lot. You know, I know that my grandmother was very excited because I was the first grandchild on both sets of grandparents. But my parents were sort of ill-equipped emotionally and remained so. My dad was a doctor, so there was financial support. But they were both kind of very self-centered and a little competitive. And I felt that there was usually – if there was concern, it was panic

that something would happen bad. But usually, I just felt they were kind of into their own thing. But because of that, not much discipline and complete allowance to sort of design myself, which, you know, for better or for worse. Yeah. Which isn't bad. I mean, I had that kind of total lack of structure and boundaries too, which has many, there are many problems with it, but there's also something amazing about it. There is, but like I never, like the regrets I have was that you don't get a foundation of self. It's something you sort of have to put together. And I think that if you have parents that are capable of the selfless love

that their responsibility is in a way, that they're able to support a child enough to become a self that is grounded. Right? So if you're kind of scrambling for a sense of self, it's terrible, kind of. Does for a sense of self, it's terrible, kind of. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. I remember reading this thing that Lars von Trier said about there were no boundaries and no rules at all in his house when he was little.

And he remembers hiding under his dining room table just feeling like the ceiling was going to cave in. And I feel like there is something there. There's something about not having something. Anxiety creates anxiety. Yeah. And then I read something that I talk about a lot about, you know, the nature of emotional negligence or abuse. You know, equally destructive. Like my parents are not physically abusive, relatively emotionally abusive, but just because they're both so selfish, there's an emotional negligence, right? And I read this thing called the fantasy bond by this guy, Robert Firestone, this psychologist who I talk about all the time, that he says that if there's something going on in the home that makes you uncomfortable, like if your parents aren't showing up for you emotionally or they're abusive in any – whatever it is. When – if you're young enough, there's no part of you that is enabled to blame your parents because they're your parents.

So you blame yourself. Oh, wow. And you implant a voice in your head that is a surrogate parent that says you're terrible. Yeah. That feels very resonant for me. Yeah. Right? Yeah. Well, I think it goes along with a lot of the stuff that you talk about in your book and just in terms of how we react to trauma in general. Yeah. And why do you think that your parents were like that? Did that come from trauma in their lives or how did they get there? I don't know because it's not – it's sort of subtle, you know, in the way that they were both – they're both still sort of not really capable of nurturing. And my mom's sort of aware of it. They're not without charm, but neither one of them were capable of love.

I don't know. Were they nurtured? I don't know. Like, you know, my grandmother was a big personality and relatively selfish. I don't really know the sort of the nature. Because my mother had eating disorders her whole life. And my father was, you know, kind of like sexually compulsive and narcissistic. I don't know really where it comes from.

You know, I get bits and pieces like you do in your movie. You get bits and pieces. And you create a know really where it comes from. I get bits and pieces like you do in your movie. You get bits and pieces. And you create a narrative out of the bits and pieces. Right. And then you're sort of like, oh, my grandfather must have been a monster. Yeah. The guy I met who was just sitting around eating fruit. Yeah, yeah. And who knows? Yeah. Right? It's interesting too, because we're often wrong about that, especially if it's a couple

generations away. I feel like the narrative in our family was when one of my sets of grandparents was that my grandmother was this really nasty, horrible person. And my grandfather was this easygoing, lovely guy. And then as the years went on, I spent more and more time with her. She was falling apart, kind of realizing, well, she was dealing with a whole lot. And actually, maybe she was doing pretty well in terms of her personality, considering what she was up against. And this person had been kind of let off the hook, you know, and then I got to know her and ended up being very close to her and kind of loving her in the last few years of her

life. But a lot of that was unpacking the narrative of like, okay, maybe this wasn't just like the nicest guy sitting in the corner and she was this horrible witch. Actually, maybe this is far more complicated. But I think, yeah, what we get to see is like the responses to a life and how that manifests and behavior, not how they got there. Right. Exactly.

My grandfather on my mother's side was like apparently this raging lunatic. But by the time, you know, I kind of knew him, he was just laying on the couch watching sports, you know, and laughing at things. But like he had kind of an edge to him. But like I don't know what kind of intensity that was, you know, there was. And I know that my dad's father was a fuck around. And that, you know, so all that stuff is passed down. Yeah.

You know. But what do you do? I'm interested in the fact that you don't tell like a concrete story about this. And I think it's really interesting that you don't cling to, oh, well, this is why

my parents were like this. Like most people have created a very concrete narrative around this kind of thing to justify and explain how their dynamics have developed. I think it's interesting how you let it be not known.

It's like, you know, you did a movie about it, but you know, you compress them on things, you know, and you find out be not known. It's like you did a movie about it, but you can press them on things, and you find out bits and pieces. And I used to do a joke about it, about things my father has told me in his 70s before he got this dementia, where there's no end.

There's not a statute of limitations on what you're allowed to tell your kid. You know what I mean? Uh-huh. Right? And there probably should be, and it should be lifelong. Yeah. Like, you know, there's some things like he'll just be like, you know that lady?

And I'm like, yeah, I don't know. You know, mom's still alive, and I got to live with this fucking secret because your ego wants you to tell me things. Oh, God. You know what I mean? Wow. It was a trip. You probably should move to Canada. I'm becoming more and more pro this plan.

Why? I don't know. I just think you might need some distance from things. Yeah. about the new film and in the parts of the book that I read and in talking about your evolution as a storyteller. You know, I didn't know where to come at it because when I initially watched the movie, you know, a couple of things, you know, it was sort of the different points of view of all the women in relation to the rapes within their community. You know, I mean, I guess we should set it up a little bit. It's a Mennonite.

Are they Mennonite? It's a Mennonite community where many of the women were drugged with bovine tranquilizers and raped by some of the men in. Right. And it went on for years in the middle of the night and this is is this based on a truth based on a true story that happened in a mennonite colony in bolivia from 2005 to 2009 2010 and um it's a it's the the film is based on a novel by miriam taves and the novel is a response to those true life events. So it doesn't cover those events. Those events are not in the film. It's about this imagined response by the women of the community where they sit down and have this debate about whether or not they should stay and fight

for a different kind of colony, whether or not they should stay and do nothing and forgive the men as they're being instructed to by the elders or whether they should leave and create their own colony. So this is an imagined debate that takes place in this hayloft about how to respond. And what struck me about the presentation of it is like, are you going to make a theatrical version of it? Because it plays like a play just by nature of the setting. Yeah. I mean, I think it would be great as a play as well.

Yeah. I mean, I was determined to make the film as cinematic as possible, but absolutely it could be a play as well. Because it's like, it's kind of loaded up like a play. Yeah. That is sort of like, we're going to reckon with this. Yeah. Yeah.

And the one man in, you know, who was there as a secretary and as a listener, it was, In, you know, who was there as a secretary and as a listener. That was a very delicate balance of acting, you know, in the face of rage or complacency or subverted rage that that guy has to sort of represent that sex. Yeah. He did a very good job. But what I started thinking about today in retrospect, and after reading the book, a couple of things that, you know, the nature, and you addressed it a little bit before, of what I sort of started to think of as institutional gaslighting. And then, you know, the way out of our own fear that we gaslight ourselves into thinking, you know, and I'm just throwing that

word around because it seems to have a very specific meaning, but why can't we broaden that? Because I mean, institutional gaslighting is the nature of religious belief in a way, right? Yeah. I mean, I think in a society like, you know, the one in the film where the structures of power have become kind of this corrupted, I tend to sort of parse out the faith in the film where the structures of power have become kind of this corrupted. I tend to sort of parse out the faith from the structures because I think that, you know, what the women in the film are doing isn't actually trying to abandon their faith or their religion. They're actually trying to figure out how to get closer to it with integrity,

which means throwing off the structures that have sprung up around it and the sort of power grabs and hierarchy. You know what? I'm going to give up on the word hierarchy of power that have sprung up around it. But also their personal morality, you know, as women in that type of community becomes corrupted because of the need for them not to take action. Yeah. And so they have to kind of go, well, how do we stay true to our faith the way we understand it? And how is that different from what we've been taught and what's been handed down to us?

And so in order to forgive, which is what's being demanded of them with no accountability and no healing. By other women. By women in the conversation that's happening has no men in it. Yeah. So any of that hierarchy that is male-based is being manifest in women who have believe it. Believe it or are in relationships where they have no power and feel there is no option except to accept it, except to forgive.

And so I think what these women kind of are wrestling with is this notion of forgiveness and what it means to them and how they might come to that in a real way. And the first step that has to be taken is to get out of harm's way. And the second step that has to be taken is how do we imagine a colony where these things are not allowed to happen again? How do we imagine an equitable society, one in which we're making decisions collectively and have a voice so that forgiveness becomes this evolving? There's an evolution of the meaning of the word into something much richer and more complex and ambitious than simply forgiving. It's about how do we create the conditions in which one day we might be able to forgive and what has to happen for that to be possible.

Right. And it's a timeless conversation and debate, both within the religious community that you represent. That could be happening 100 years ago or now. Yeah. But it's also a relevant conversation around where women are at now in relation to men and culture and institutional negligence. What would the word be? And violence. Violence. Yeah, I think both.

I mean, and I do think there are so many echoes in this conversation about so many things we're dealing with. One of them also is democracy. I mean, what does it look like to sit down in a room with a bunch of people you don't agree on every single issue with and actually have to work it out together and find a way forward? And I think so much of the conversation over the last five and six years has become, I mean, it's been so important, the sort of naming of the harms and in some cases the naming of the people who perpetrated those harms. Those are important conversations to have. I think equally important and slightly neglected is, okay, but what do we want to see instead? What do we want to build? How do we do that?

How do we work with people who don't agree with us? How do we move to something better? And what do we have to do to make that happen? And that can't be us shouting on either side of the room at each other and just shaking our narratives at each other. It's actually got to be a fruitful conversation that's hard and difficult and challenging and goes to really raw, soft spots without anyone running away. And that, to me, became really interesting in terms of a focus of a project, especially in the current climate. Yeah. And after reading parts of the book, I mean, how much of this, not unlike, you know, the movie, the documentary about your family, you know,

you seem to want to resolve personal issues with the films that are not broad, but are specific. So in reading the essay about Gian Gomeschi, you know, the way you frame it in the book, from all the points of view that you discuss it with yourself and with others, and your choice to not go public with it at the time seems to be at the heart of this movie. It's funny. I don't think of it as the heart of the movie. Okay, maybe not the heart.

But I do think that I think most women, sadly, have experiences that they would bring to this film or Miriam Taves' book where there would be resonance, there would be echoes. I think certainly it informs certain moments in the film. I mean, that moment where Mayal, one of the characters, has a kind of PTSD episode and ends up talking about how the fact that she was made to disbelieve herself was harder than the violent act itself. act itself. That, I think, comes from my experience, but also so many conversations with other women, and certainly from watching women go through the court system and trials like this and how brutalizing that is. Yeah, it's like a very kind of devastating, but the way you had a conversation with yourself in the essay. And you ask a conversation with yourself in the essay.

And you ask a good question in here. Why do we write things about ourselves? This paragraph is something that is at the heart of whatever we're talking about right now. You write, to absolve ourselves of guilt, to confess, to right a wrong, to be heard, to apologize, to clarify things for ourselves or others. I've wondered all these things as I sit down to write this. So where'd you come out on that? I mean, that essay is really complicated because that's an essay I really didn't want to write. There was a sense of feeling like I had to and it felt like a guillotine hanging over my head because, you know, of course that case went to trial women did come forward um they were you know they had a horrible

experience being on the stand and going through the court process he was acquitted i stayed silent knowing that my story would not be more credible in a court of law than theirs but the difference was i have a family of lawyers i have friends who are lawyers who are able to advise me, don't do it. But I sort of lived with that, that sense that I watched these women go through this court process, knowing that what I had to say would not help them, but also staying silent feels pretty horrific. So I spent years and years thinking, what do I do? How do I do it? Do I do it? And what I think I ended up with was what I can do is tell the story

of why women don't come forward about how- From your point of view. From my point of view, because we don't hear those stories. What we don't hear is the stories of, I think it's 98% of women who have gone through an experience like this, make the decision to not go through the hell of telling their story. So I thought what I can contribute at this point is to shine a light on that voice and also to, in a way, show solidarity with those women by showing how similarly uncredible my story would have been on the stand.

And yet, you know, why the hell would I tell it now? It's unbelievably crappy to have to talk about and have out in the world. And also, what if I expose all the embarrassing stuff, all the details that would make my story seem inconsistent or hard to believe or not stand up in a court of law? What if I volunteer that instead of, you know, having a prosecutor coming at me. And what might that do in terms of the conversation around this? If we start talking more about and revealing how memory works after trauma, how storytelling works after trauma in terms of how we tell a story, how we might tell it to others, how we might reframe it. Right. Well, that part of the essay in terms, how the court works and what it requires in terms of truth and how the human mind works and how, you know, what it requires of itself to do in light of trauma

is that seemed to be a very kind of, you know, progressive, possibly progressive line of thinking in terms of correcting the problem around how victims are seen. Yeah. And I think we're making some headway there. Like, I do think there's a growing understanding that similarly, Dr. Lori Haskell talks about this a lot, who specializes in this stuff. But she talks about how we don't expect someone after a major car accident to be able to tell you who was walking by, what color coat they were wearing, what the color of the other three cars were, because we would understand the brain is so traumatized it can't do that. And it can't consign those things to memory in that moment.

But in a sexual assault case, we expect all those details to be pitch perfect or the person must be lying. And that's pretty problematic. Yeah. And it's weird. I knew that guy. I had done his show a couple of times. I remember when all this has gone down. And just sort of you reckoning with yourself around having that experience with him and then still having to deal with him.

Yeah. And watching yourself do interviews with him. It's so weird. Yeah. You can watch them now. No, which I did. And that was so, it was so interesting just in terms of seeing my body language and the way I relate to him. And there's all of this thing to have a record of that and to be able to look back at it. And also thinking, especially in the climate before Me Too, which is when that trial happened with them, if someone had played that in a court of law in that moment, it would have been like, well, there's no chance this happened because look at her.

She's not going to sit in a room across from someone who did this to her. They're having fun. look at her like she's not going to sit in a room across from someone who did this in fact in fact so many women have exactly this experience of having post-assault contact and it looks really different than what you would imagine yeah in the abstract for it to look like it's really complicated what you do when you feel fearful or you're or more importantly i think trying to normalize things or reframe them as something that wasn't that bad yeah yeah yeah so what uh it seems that a lot of these conversations though that you're having right now are are within this film yeah and yeah i mean i think you know and the book the the film in so many ways is so true to Miriam Taves' book, Women Talking. So I feel like, I feel slightly complicated as sort of about mapping my experience onto her work. Certainly, it was one of sadly many experiences I have had that spoke to me in terms of through reading her book. I would say the Jian story probably wasn't the most important story in terms of my connection to the material. What was?

I mean, who knows? I don't want to, I mean, what I didn't want it to be as a trauma dump. I kind of wanted to make sure that every story was a story of either recovery or moving through something. Or struggle. Yeah. With self. Yeah.

You know, none of it felt like a trauma dump. That's good. Like, I feel like everybody was engaged in, you know, in the debate, but also the people that, you know, were clearly experiencing different versions of trauma were struggling with themselves. They had to struggle with some other thing, which is the, you know, the history of this type of thinking. Yeah. Right? And complicity, which is, I think, something that we've all had to reckon with a lot in the last six or seven years. You know, this sense that, yes, a lot of harm was done, but also what did we see that we knew was wrong and didn't do anything about? And how were we also not just victims of this kind of thing, but also part of the problem?

We also, not just victims of this kind of thing, but also part of the problem. And so I think that, yeah, I mean, I think Sheila's character, especially in order for this group to move on and come to some kind of resolution moving forward together, some apologies have to be made. There has to be some accountability. In the film is when this mother apologizes to her daughter for encouraging her to go back to a situation over and over again that was unsafe and dangerous and violent. Yeah. And that happens a lot. Yeah. In life. Yeah. Yeah.

I don't know. I, you know, I'm trying to, you know, I'm not having children and, you know, not getting married again. I just am insulated in the horrors of humanity in a way. Maybe when you come to Canada. Yeah. You'll relax enough. Yeah. We'll see. Once you have. Yeah.

I don't know how. It's just everything's so fucking scary. It is. But don't you think also, I don't know. I think lately I've just been so amazed by, like, in a way the horrors aren't surprising. Do you know what I mean? For us as a species. What's surprising is how many people do kind of connect and reach out to others and help each other. Like that actually, to me, what the big surprise is, is that we're capable of all this kind of great stuff as well.

I kind of cling to that. I don't mean to sound like, you know, obnoxiously optimistic and Pollyannish, but I do just feel like, I don't know, I think our capacity for imagination and for collaboration and seeing something else is bigger than we think it is. And I also think, honestly, that instinctively people show up for people. Yeah. where people kind of can hide behind screen names or distance or even just texting, that none of that is called upon. But when it comes down to brass tacks or whatever the adage is, that people generally show up for complete strangers. I used to notice that about New York all the time, living in New York.

Like if somebody went down on the street for whatever reason, within seconds, there's somebody in charge and taking care of it. And I do believe that people do that. I don't know how long it'll last in the culture we live in, but, but I do, I think that it is instinctive that people want to take care of each other. And, and when, and also like what you're talking about, when people get sort of in that groove of generational abuse, it, you know, I, it seems like that's the hardest cycle to break because that's one of those situations where people are like, I don't know if we are, is it our place? That's what I hear a lot of.

Like, you know, I don't want to get involved in family. What? Yeah. Or the need to just kind of keep the peace and keep things nice. Yeah. I think can do so much incredible harm. And I think about that a lot in terms of telling personal stories, like in my book. Where there can be this sense sometimes of, oh, but do you really want to open that up?

Or do you really want to make that person look bad? Or, you know, there's some sense in which the truth should come second to just keeping things kind of functioning in status quo and keeping people comfortable and keeping people's images intact of, you know, who they would like someone to or believe someone to be. And it's just like after all the conversations we've had in the last six and seven years about the importance of telling these stories, I think we're still not really there in terms of being able to accept that that's going to involve some discomfort. Right. For everybody. Yeah. Yeah. I – yeah. Well, I mean, it feels like in a lot of ways, you know, on a lot of fronts that there's definitely progress being made.

Yeah. I mean, yes, but I'm feeling really intensely right now this blowback when it comes to the Me Too movement, when it comes to Black Lives Matter, when it comes to a whole host of things that felt like, okay, here we are, we're on our way somewhere, maybe. I keep having to remind myself, right, progress isn't linear. So as someone described to me recently, this guy I know who's a political guy, and he said, it's short periods of reform followed by long periods of reaction. That is what you need to accept as someone who wants to see change. That's historical. There's a short period of reform, really, really fast. Hopefully you get as much done as you possibly can in the little window. And then there's a giant backlash. And then you wait till the next little moment where people pop up again and there's some progress. And right now I do feel the wave of, you know, in so many levels, we do feel the wave of that backlash and that, okay, you've had your minute. Sit down.

Shut up. We're done. And that, okay, you've had your minutes. Sit down. Shut up. We're done. And there's also like a fairly organized and proud fascism going on. Yeah. In democratic countries.

Yeah. Like mine. Yeah. And yours to a lesser degree. But it's there. Absolutely. And, you know, that enables something that's worse than just pushback. Yeah. worse than just pushback. It seeks to redefine what priorities are through violence and annihilation.

And I think that's a very real thing. It's a very real thing. And the other thing is that the people who are holding these beliefs right now, they don't seem like the kind of people who had those feelings 10 or 15, 20 years ago. I mean, I've seen friends of mine become really radicalized. You know, I know people who were, I was close to who I love, who suddenly were at that freedom convoy, you know, in Ottawa, the truckers protest. What do you make of that? What I make of the fact that that happened? Let's just talk about those people individually.

The people that I know, that I love, and that I still love? I mean, and I have, you know, I have relatives, I think, who, you know, definitely vote a very different way. There's a genuine sense of disenfranchisement that is real and is based on poverty and economic struggle that has been piloted by really insidious people into something else. And it goes into conspiracy theories and it goes into racism and it goes into all these ugly places, which isn't to say that the seeds weren't already there, you know, misogyny and racism, all these things. But I think that this very real concern about how little room there is for people to advance economically at a certain level has just been co-opted into all of the, I'm not saying anything new, and I'm not even saying it very eloquently, but it is interesting for me now to see how close up it is and how, you know, I remember a really good friend of mine discovering five or six years ago, looking at each other's Facebook feeds and realizing, oh my God, we literally just have

completely different news sources. And this was someone I saw then get completely radicalized within a very short space of time and was suddenly at the Freedom Convoy or scrolling through TikTok and looking for self-help and suddenly every third video is Jordan Peterson. who hasn't like thought a lot about these things and goes in very very good intentions wanting self-help and ends up a week later radicalized into this total bigot who hates trans people and you've gone down this rabbit hole through jordan peterson's pretty legitimate sounding self-help stuff and then into his more furious yeah rage-filled misogynistic despair-filled rants about, you know. The future of men. The future of men.

And it's like, it's such a quick process of radicalization now. Now it could take you a week as opposed to a few months of actually seeing people. You can do it on your own on your phone. Do you maintain friendship with these people? I do. I have a really strict policy, actually, of maintaining contact and forcing them to as well. Like, I need to hear what you're thinking and feeling, and I need you to hear what I'm thinking and feeling, and we will keep speaking. These are family members or friends? Both.

Yeah. And we will remain respectful, and we are going to tell each other what we are hearing and listening to. Because I just think the end of everything is retreating into our corners and not having those conversations. You know, it's just, I think that terrifies me more than anything in the world is that we say, okay, fuck it. I'm not talking to you. You're disgusting. Yeah. And they say the same about me.

And then we just are in our little echo chambers and we have no way of reaching each other anymore and i just think that to me and that to me is apocalyptic and in a way so much of why i made this film is about what does it look like to have a room of people who really disagree with each other and they have to work to each other with each other their life depends on it their society depends on it and that is actually the situation we're in right now. We are in a situation where our life depends on figuring out a way of speaking to each other. Yeah. And how has the response been to the film? It's been amazing. It's just an amazing experience of having these really rich, dynamic, surprising, challenging conversations. And yeah, I've loved it.

And I think usually part of this process where you're out shucking your wares can be so soul destroying. But I kind of can't wait because I just feel like, you know, I'm always learning something. Someone's always challenging me on something I haven't been challenged on before. I'm never able to be lazy. I'm never answering the same question. It's just, it's really interesting, I think, because there's so many points of view in the film, which comes again from Miriam's book, that there's a lot of different ways that people seem to find a portal into it. And I imagine if you're doing Q&A or even having a conversation on a panel, that it's almost like the film stops, but that conversation just continues on from a personal level.

Absolutely. Yeah. And it happened to all of us shooting it too. Like, I mean, we had to have those policies of no one gets to walk away. Oh, yeah. No one has to keep talking, you know, and that was kind of an amazing thing. So seeing all of our relationships evolve and continue to evolve just feels like this is the extension of the film.

Were there decisions made because of conversations that were had, you know, during the shooting? Yeah, lots. With actors and with people behind the camera? I hadn't written it the right way. It's not a moment that's in the book. And we shot Jesse's side of it. And one of our crew members had a really hard time. He had been through, he had grown up in a kind of similar community in a way. There had been abuse. There had been no responsibility taken. There had been no apology to him.

It had gone on for a very long time. And he watched Jesse's performance, her response to the apology, and he felt something in him just kind of come loose and go, like, that is exactly what I lived a few years ago, where I just realized everything I'd been led to believe was wrong. And then we turned around, and I had not scripted Sheila's apology properly, and I just turned to him and said, would that be good enough for you? And he went, no, she doesn't say I'm sorry.

Are you crazy? Like I was like, so what would you need to hear from your parents? And we talked about it for a long time. And then I sort of went up to Sheila and said, at the end of your speech to her, if you feel like you have to say I'm sorry, say it. Don't say it unless you feel like you have to., I'm sorry, say it, don't say it unless you feel like you have to. And then she just suddenly said it three times in a row. And it just kind of shattered the room, the way she took hold of that

and also gave to this crew member the thing they had needed and wanted to hear. And it was an amazing collective process of finding, binding that together. And that was the joy of this film was people not just the cast but the crew were just kind of giving everything they had yeah to every moment and we were able to kind of find things that we didn't know we we wanted or needed well it's great it's amazing amazing work i'm all choked up now seriously Seriously. Because I've got to re-watch it, you know.

It's one of those things where you have to re-watch it. You've watched it a hundred times. I've watched it enough, yeah. I don't need to watch it again. It was great talking to you. It was so good to talk to you. Thank you so much. Women Talking is now playing in theaters.

And watch her other movies, too. The documentary was pretty great. So, all right, hang out. Hang out for a minute. It's hockey season, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So, no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats.

But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice? Yes, we deliver those. Goal tenders, no. But chicken tenders, yes. Because those are groceries, and we deliver those too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, alcohol, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly.

Product availability varies by region. See app for details. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5pm in Rock City at torontorock.com Hey, we're back. I'm Mark Maron. This is WTF.

Thanks for joining us. We just missed Sarah Pauly, but because it's a podcast, just rewind. Not even rewind. Move the thing, go back. There's no rewinding. Back it up. David Crosby is dead.

The man, the mustache, the music, the myth. I talked to David Crosby in 2016. He hung out a long time and I think wanted to spend the day. It was nice talking to him, but he was like, can I come back? Can we talk about nuclear power? But it was funny.

It's a good episode, and you should listen to it. He was on episode 751. It's from back in October 2016. It's really hard to understand your place in the world. Uh-huh. I don't look at myself the way everybody else does. Of course not, right. Because I know what a bozo I really am, you know.

And you try to tell people, and you say, no, no, I put my pants on one leg at a time, same as you. Right, right. But I've, you know, my life in relation to the rest of the world has been very strange. Making all the mistakes that I made in front of the world, that was not fun. Again, that's David Crosby, episode 751. And you can listen to that for free on all podcast platforms or at WTFpod.com. Hey, if you're just joining us, David Crosby is episode 751. Rest in peace, David.

I recorded that back in October 2016. It's available now. Tomorrow, folks, on the full Marin, Wrestling with Mark continues with AEW superstar Chris Jericho. He tells me what it's been like to break into the wrestling business when he was 19 and travel all over the

world, building his reputation. If you're not already a full Marin subscriber, go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF+. On Thursday, I talk with half-Canadian Brendan Fraser, who may be an Oscar nominee for best actor by the time you hear this episode. Deservingly so.

All right. Guitar. Everything's cleaned in here now. I cleaned it all up. If you're just joining us, we're ending the show with some guitar, which we always do. Enjoy. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Boomer lives. Monkey. La Fonda. Cat angels everywhere.