WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1404 - Brendan Fraser

Episode Date: January 26, 2023

Brendan Fraser is receiving awards and accolades for his performance in The Whale but his reasons for taking on the role go much deeper than wanting to earn well-deserved praise. Brendan and Marc talk about the many layers of pain, trauma and redemption that went into creating the performance, much of which was informed by experiences throughout Brendan’s own life. They also compare notes on their shared love of Canada. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck nicks? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast. Welcome to it. It's called W wtf are you in the right place did you uh did you did you stop the dial at the right show are you at the right place on the dial today brendan fraser is here newly oscar nominated brendan fraser for best actor for his performance in the whale which i saw and it's

weird i do not uh it turns out I'm not really in the loop of what people are saying about movies. Bits and pieces. I don't do any real reading about films that I haven't seen yet, generally speaking. And I didn't know anything about this movie. I knew some people were upset that he was not as affected by obesity as he should be

to play the part that he was not as affected by obesity as he should be to play the part that he was playing. But I don't know that that really set one way or the other with me. I don't know if I felt one way or the other, but I didn't know anything about the movie. I didn't know what it was about. I didn't know anything. And I went in and I watched it and I found it moving. A compelling and heartbreaking portrait of grief and shame and guilt. Oh, my God.

It was clearly, I would have liked to have seen the play, but I thought he did a great job. I thought everyone in the movie did a great job. about how the problem or the disease or however you want to frame it, the reality of obesity has profoundly affected me personally and in a deep way to my core. And I talked to Brandon about this because it was a realization I had. And outside of it, outside of that, when I was watching the movie, I very quickly was no longer, you know, kind of, um, focusing on, you know, the character's weight, but just the weight of his heart. I, I, I liked the movie new cat mugs from Brian Jones go on sale today at noon

Eastern today. And this time they'll only be available for 24 hours. So that's noon today until noon tomorrow, Friday at WTF mugs.co WTF mugs.co. I believe, I don't know what series he's working on. Sometimes he does the retro cat mugs. Other times you get the, the buster and Sammy cat mugs.

We got to get Charlie on there. Charlie Beans Roscoe is okay. He's a pain in the ass. He's an asshole almost all day long. But at 4.30, five in the morning, he's purring and rubbing my face with his face and sometimes sticking his nose into my mouth. and sometimes sticking his nose into my mouth. Not great, not great. But I understand he's awkward and this is his way of showing affection and it's the middle of the night. But then the rest of the day, full on kitten asshole.

So, but anyways, this design that won't be offered again, I'm hearing, and I haven't seen the design of the mugs. It's very limited. It's a limited batch. All right. Brian Jones made a limited batch of the mugs. So I would go grab one at wtfmugs.co. Only available starting noon today for 24 hours. Can you dig it? Okay. What do I got to get you up to speed on? Oh, Eliza Schlesinger, who sometimes just goes by Eliza these days, is a fierce and intense comedian and person. and we've worked through them. But I get her and she gets me. And, you know, she is a force of nature.

You know her, Eliza Schlesinger. Her husband is a very sweet guy. He's not, I don't know him to be intense or fierce, but he's very pleasant, very grounded. And he's a big fan of the show. And he's a chef. I have gone to, when I was in the middle of the grief, me and Noah, Noah Galutan is his name, went to the farmer's market, good guy. And we text occasionally. And he has written a couple of cookbooks with other people, but he has written a couple cookbooks with other people but he's

written his own cookbook it's the don't panic pantry cookbook it came in the mail like i'm this not paid plug this is me supporting other artists this guy's he's married to el, you know, which has got to be, um, you know, be careful, Mark. Look, all I know is the sweet guy. And he wrote this cookbook and it came in the mail in a box from the publisher with a, with a bag of, of, uh, of what do you call it? Heirloom beans, some high-end pasta, some olive oil, a spatula. Yeah. And the book, The Don't Panic Pantry. And I'm a cook. I like to cook.

And right away, I get into it. And because of what happened after the colonoscopy, I'm changing my diet. And I'm like, right away, it's like, what about beans? And there's a recipe for beans. And it just tells you to cook basic beans. And he doesn't soak them. So right away, I'm texting him. We don't soak your beans.

He's like, you don't have to. That's a myth. I'm like, really? Yep. And it doesn't even stop the gassiness. I'm like, really? Yep. And I cooked the beans like Noah told me to in the Don't Panic Pantry cookbook.

They came out great. And then I made his tahini dressing from the cookbook. It's mostly the subheading is mostly vegetarian comfort food that happens to be pretty good for you. And Eliza wrote the foreword. And there's all these pictures of them living a regular life in their house. She's sitting there having coffee and he's cooking things like regular people. Anyway, I'm doing this because I like them. And the cookbook, it just looks to be right up my alley.

And you can preorder it wherever you preorder books. The Don't Panic Pantry Cookbook. Noah Galutin. Okay. Okay. With a foreword by Eliza. A frenetic, furious foreword by the intense Eliza Schlesinger.

I'm saying this all in a nice way, Noah, so don't get her all worked up. I know you're listening. Because he listens. He enjoys the show. Okay. Something else. What else is happening? I'll tell you. The trailer for my special is out. We've got a He enjoys the show. Okay. Something else. What else is happening?

I'll tell you. The trailer for my special is out. We've got a date for the special. The HBO special is coming out on HBO. It's premiering on HBO proper February 11th. I imagine it'll show up on HBO Max pretty shortly after. But I've posted the trailer on Twitter. It's a great trailer.

The music sounds good. The, uh, Steven fine arts who directed it did a beautiful job and, I'm very happy with it. And, and you can watch the trailer of, for the special and get a good sense of what the special is.

It's just, I, it, it's happening. My special from bleak to dark. It's premiering on HBO on February 11th. Okay. Also Andrea Riceboro comes around from the outside,

comes from the back, gets the Academy award nomination for two Leslie. How fucking exciting is that? She, you know, had a ran a grassroots campaign or people did for her and she got the nom. So the movie that I'm in with her is now an Oscar nominated movie. I've been in a few of those, by the way. I've been in a couple of Oscar winning movies. The Joker,

I was in Joker and I was in Almost Famous, both Oscar-winning movies. But this is very exciting for the film because it's a small film and the distributor, Momentum Pictures, totally dropped the ball and left the movie hanging on all levels. All levels. Just the worst. And somehow or another, through actors coming together as a community, deservedly so, Andrea Riceboro has been nominated for an Oscar for Best Actress. Very exciting and thrilled to be part of it and happy for everybody involved. So the last time I talked to you,

I believe I was in the middle of the fasting and pooping for a colonoscopy, I'm sorry. This, you know, if, if you're triggered by talk of, uh, invasive, uh, probing exams, then, um, with consent, then this might not be for you, but here's the deal. So I go back to this doctor. I want to now, I don't know if I told you, but the doctor, he's a funny doctor. You know, I mean, well, he tries to be funny. Like the last time when I went in for the first colonoscopy, he asked me if I was a virgin. You know, okay.

You know, not particularly appropriate, but doctors are doctors. And it was funny enough. And I'm sure he used it a million times. So he asked me if, you know, if I'd been, if I'd had one before. I said, yeah, you did it like eight years ago. He's like, oh, so you're, you're back. And I'm like, yes, I am. And he said, well, um, you know, I go to the surgery center and he's talking to me and I meet the anesthesiologist and I meet the, uh, the nurse who asked me, uh, did you consent to, uh, uh, uh, someone watching the procedure?

I'm like, what is this? Like, do they buy tickets? How does this work? Are you running a side hustle where people come in and watch colonoscopies? What are you talking about? Well, the doc has a new assistant who, you know, he's getting up to speed. And I said, I didn't know anything about that. So he asked me and he says, can I new assistant? He introduces me. She's standing there. Do you mind if she watches? I'm like, look, man, I sure it's fine. Go. Yes. Everyone has to learn. If you want to learn from my ass, then I'm, I'm flattered. I hope, uh, I hope it's, I hope, I hope it's nothing terrible, but there's enough to, uh, that you have to do there, uh, to, to get some hands-on, uh, hands-in experience. So anyway, I asked him cause James, my buddy James, he says to me, he says, get,

are you getting an endoscopy? I'm like, do I need an endoscopy? He's like, well, you're going to be in there. I'm like, what's an endoscopy. That's where they, they go down your esophagus. And the same guy does it apparently. So I asked the doc, I said, should I get an endoscopy? He says, well, you know, why not? I guess. I mean, you don't need one. I'm not, I'm not referring you for one. You do have, uh, uh, acid reflux. I'm like, no. He says, like, do you have anything wrong with him? Like, no. He said, look, it can't hurt. It can't hurt. And I'm like, all right, so let's do the endoscopy. And then he literally turns to the nurse who's just outside of the current area.

He goes, all right, we're changing this to a double. We're doing a double. I like that these are like sort of for invoice items. It's not a single anymore. It's not just the bottom end. We're going in both ends. Double penetration on this one. Going to have to give you, you know,

afterwards you're going to have to kick the anesthesiologist another 50 bucks. I'm like, fine, let's do it. So then I go in, they roll me into where the surgery is going to take place or the procedure. And they're playing the Eagles. They're playing the fucking Eagles, peaceful, easy feeling. And I'm like, oh, this is the thing. This is what they do. So the doc comes in, the anesthesiologist is getting me loaded up because he didn't know it was a double. So they just, uh, sort of, they put the, the, he was just going to put a mask on me, but then they're like, we're doing a double. And so they had to put the thing in my mouth so they could run the fucking tube down. And they got me hooked up on the IV and the doc is like, you ready for a peaceful,

easy feeling? I'm like, yeah, man, I am. And then he turns to the anesthesiologist. He's like, we're going to get him into it. We're going to give him a peaceful, easy feeling. Anesthesiologist is like, yup. Peaceful, easy feeling. I'm like, this is a great show fellas. I'm happy. He's like, can you turn to the side? Oh, see, this is where the show gets a little dicey. fellas. I'm happy. He's like, can you turn to the side? Oh, see, this is where the show gets a little dicey. This is where it gets a little more involved. Turn over on your side. Good. And then the doctor comes around. He's looking at me. He says like, all right, the, uh, the anesthesiologist just hooked you up to the drug. I guess there's propanol. He's like anything. And I'm like, no, not yet. And I'm just in the

doctor's like, all right, well, this is going to, everything's gonna be fine and we'll see what's up. And I'm like, and now all of a sudden I felt it. I'm like, oh man, it's coming on. It's, oh man. Next thing I know, I hear Mark, wake up, Mark, wake up. I open my eyes to the anesthesiologist. I'm like, Hey, he's like, Hey, I'm like I'm like are we done how'd it go how long was I out What happened What happened in here how many people were watching I hope it was just that one lady I only said yes about one lady

And I'm coming out of it and the doc comes around He's like how you feeling I'm like I'm fine And he's like what's up he's like well here's some pictures Looks good. Esophagus looks great. Colon looks good. Except we had a little benign polyp here. Took care of it.

I'm like, nice. So that she got to really learn something today. They just took it off. So one polyp removed. No badness. Everything's clean and good. Five years I'm good for. Esophagus looks good. I'm loopy as fuck. My buddy Jerry Stahl picks me up. I got a freebie, man. I'm loopy. We're in Beverly Hills and I'm like, let's go to the butcher's daughter and just eat some vegan food.

So I'm off to a good start for my clean colon and I'm buzzed. propofol, which is very good. I'm with it enough to eat and order and talk. I feel good. I feel all right. I'm engaged in the world. And we had this huge meal because I hadn't eaten a day and a half and we're in Beverly Hills. And I believe I hallucinated that we went into the John Varvato store and I bought a suit with a jacket that was a Nehru collared jacket, a Nehru jacket and a pair of velvet pants. I wild, right? That I thought I was normal, but I guess I was still kind of high on the propofol because I hallucinated that I bought a Nehru jacket, a suit, and a pair of velvet pants. That's crazy. And then I got home.

Jerry dropped me off. And I'm getting out of the car. He said, you know, don't forget your bags. And I'm like, what? And I had bought a suit with a Nehru jacket and a pair of velvet pants. Yeah, I'm a 59-year-old man that you will see in the probably near future, somewhere in public, wearing a pair of velvet pants. Full circle.

I wore leather pants and a velvet Nehru jacket on Conan a long time ago, and I think I'm going to wear a non-velvet Nehru jacket and perhaps some velvet pants on Fallon next month. So look out for that stuff. I did that. It was not a hallucination, but that propofol is pretty good. Made me believe I could wear velvet pants. You know?

All right. That all happened and also by the way get your uh get your colonoscopies get your endoscopies get your stress tests fellas ladies but um you know speaking get your prostate exam just just do it man all right help me? Help me out. Help yourself out. So look, Brendan Fraser and I had an intense conversation. It's heavy, man. But it was good. Again, he is in The Whale, and that's now playing in theaters, nominated for the Academy Award for Best actor. And also, I should tell you that we talk about Brendan alleging that he was sexually

assaulted by the former president of the Hollywood Foreign Press Association, Philip Burke, who has denied the allegation. But we talk about it. So that's a heads up for a few reasons. But now you know it's coming. This is me talking to Brendan Fraser. Be honest. When was the last time you thought about your current business insurance policy? If your existing business insurance policy is renewing on autopilot each year without checking out Zensurance, you're probably spending more than you need. That's why you need to switch to low-cost coverage from Zensurance

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Thank you. On the award. Thank you. Awards award. One now? One. It's a first for me. The critic's choice?

Well, I've never really waited to hear if or not my name's going to be called aloud from a podium. So, I mean. You've never, oh, that's interesting, though, the way to look at it. You've never been in a room where you're waiting for that. Correct. Yeah. I mean, unless I was there with an ensemble. Right.

Which, actually, I was never on stage for for the couple of occasions that that happened. Oh, really? I was working somewhere else and the award ceremony happened, but I think that was for Crash. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. A SAG award, I think, a Critics' Choice also.

That was a big ensemble. Large. Yeah, and a lot of you guys didn't even work with each other. No, yeah, it was one of those sort of, I don't know if it's a Rashomon story, but I mean, it's. It's a thread through lives. Yeah. Right? It's, you know, it follows a thread.

Yeah. I remember liking that movie. I don't know if I can remember the movie specifically. I have a hard time with that as I get older. Oh, I feel you. I do. I have a hard time with just vocabulary I get older. Oh, I feel you. I do. I have a hard time with just vocabulary too. Oh yeah. Words leave. It's the worst. You mean like sentences or words? Words for me, not sentences. Yeah. Words. Yeah. Where you just sit there and you're

like, fuck. I know. I know this, but why am I not summoning? Yeah. It's like my dad started this sort of dementia process. So now, because I'm 59, you know, you get, you know, when that happens, you're like, oh, no. Is it happening? Is this it? Yeah. Is this the beginning? But I'm okay so far.

How are your hinges and joints holding up? Mine are a little bit janky. Bad, dude. Yeah. Like every day. I don't. Plus the weather makes them worse. I guess so.

It's like a joke and all like, oh, it's going to rain. My knee hurts. But no, you know what? It really does. I was just rubbing my knee really hard in the car on the way over here. Is that what? Because I've heard that and I just, I didn't know if there was credence to it. Bariatric.

Bariatric. Barometric pressure. Really? Or something. That makes sense. That was a slip. Bariatric. It's a word that's been on my mind lately.

It's different. No, I was talking about that yesterday, though. Because I try to exercise, and because I'm 59, I'm sore every day. Every fucking day. I know. You? I'm okay. I was in a lot of pain for some time, but I took care of it.

It was all surgical fixes and a lot of pain for some time but i took care of it it was all surgical fixes and a lot of um therapy yeah you know like you kind of like name a favorite modality of how to do physical therapy and i probably know something something about if i didn't do it myself when did you start injuring yourself movies yeah and just growing older too right but all that because of the injuries that that means they're going to kind of hurt sometimes. Well, if you take care. I mean, I took care of it in my 40s primarily. And all the doctors and advisors and whatever, they were like, you know, normally this is something that you would do when you're in your 60s or up. But you can do it now if you must. Right.

But it's good to preemptively get it out of the way because it's harder to bounce back from when you are older. Oh, so you... I mean, it's possible for sure. Like, there are 80-year-olds who get hip and knee replacements all the time. Yeah. They go bowling, playing golf and all that. Oh, so you had to get all that stuff done.

It was just relative to injuring yourself on sets, right? Yeah. I mean, I was very good at packing up my knees and, you know, with straps and tape and all that stuff. Like, I knew that one aisle in the CVS really well. Yeah. Like, oh, the new wrist braces are out. Whee! Yeah.

So what do you got, knees and wrists? No, wrists are good. Wrists are good. Left knee partial replacement, and here's my joke. I couldn't afford the whole thing. Yeah, it's a good one. Yeah. It's a good one.

And the spine in one to three places is bolted together with hardware. And that was from an injury? Yeah. Well, yes. And I'm sure a genetic predisposition for soft tissue issues grinding away. It was pretty much just like the sort of bone-on-bone, if not the spine that had... Oh, man. What's it called?

Bone-on-bone's not good. No, it's noisy, and it hurts. Yeah. And running's hard because you have no real spongy pads in between our joints. Right. It doesn't protect your shock absorbers, really. So, well, not to have a medical conversation, but does that stuff just naturally start to go away with age? I don't think so.

Okay, good. I think it just compounds. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, I went to the movie yesterday, To the Whale. Oh. And I thought you were great, and I liked the movie. I went in with no preconceptions. I had no idea what the story was. I didn't read any press on it. So my experience was pretty pure.

And I was, you know, very affected, obviously, it's hard not to, you know, be affected by the film. But what was interesting is that, you know, in retrospect, you know, having grown up as somebody who is, you know, I have direct, I just realized this this morning, that I have direct personality repercussions from a person affected by obesity. had the issues when she was younger, and because of that, sort of had a lifelong eating disorder around it, deprivation. And my emotional construct was built by somebody, you know, around food and the issue of obesity in a very deep way.

And I didn't put it together till today. Wow. Yeah. But did the deprivation physically manifest into any other deprivation emotionally? Well, yeah, it's all, I mean, it's a permeating kind of disorder. It is, and it was her, and is, I mean, she's still around. It defined her life.

The sort of maintenance of a very sort of inappropriately low weight. And it was how she judged the world and herself and me. It's kind of like a ruler, a yardstick to the world. Kind of, yeah. the world like kind of yeah and and also like i don't you know it's all new to me as of this morning in terms of and you just mentioning uh the idea of emotional deprivation i don't know wow what kind of research did you do in terms of because this is a movie about grief primarily right redemption and love also it's yeah it's five characters in the quest for salvation in their own way. Okay. Did you feel that when you read it?

Absolutely. Well, I'll get to that in a second, but I didn't know that much about it. I, like you, went into it kind of eyes wide open. Right. I knew very little about it apart from a log line that there's a man who's been overeating and it's harming him yeah he lives alone and he is having regrets for his life choices yeah and in a sort of epiphany he finally owns that if he doesn't reconnect with his daughter his

his very soul is at stake steak? Right. For, or is it, or is it not? But he's conflicted about that. Yeah. And he makes me infinitely human, which I liked. Yeah. And,

um, he's a guy that's flawed. He's funny. He's, he's like some, we all know, at least I'll speak for myself, but I've known,

I've known many versions of Charlie. Right. I've had them as mentors. Sure. I've had them as friends, family members. Yes. And people I've met for sure mentors. Sure. I've had them as friends, family members. Yes. And people I've met for sure,

worked with, people I've, you know, come and gone and loved and admired. But he, Charlie's, Charlie is,

I'm sorry, I'm looking at your, your harmonica. It says, Charlie Musselwhite. Musselwhite. Yeah, he gave me that.

That's cool. Yeah. Speaking of Charlie's. Yeah. he gave me that. That's cool. Speaking of Charlies. Yeah. So I thought that I was familiar coming to the project with those sensibilities in mind. I failed to mention also that he also has, on paper at least, five days to do this. He doesn't know it yet, but the clock is ticking for him, given how poor he is in health. When you talked to Darren, that was a conversation?

Yeah. That this time limit was finite. Yes. It wasn't like there was a ticking clock. Right. The fuse wasn't lit, per se. But, I mean, it's obvious with Charlie's mobility issues, his clear cardiovascular health severely compromised. Sure.

And the act of breathing and ambulation is in this extreme for him to just take to his feet requires almost like a deadlifter. Right. And mortality for how heavy his body is. You played that very well. Thanks. Did you have actual weight on you? I know these are probably questions

you've answered a lot. No, I'll do my best. Weight, oh, you mean like insofar as all the costume and apparatus? It was cumbersome, yes. But was it, you know, was it loaded up? No, it wasn't overdone,

but when we rehearsed, I would wear weight vest and, you know, like one of those workout things that the big muscle guys would run upstairs and all that, and ankle and wrist weights. Well, I think the amazing accomplishment

of the performance and the writing is that in thinking about it the day after, those issues are right up front. I mean, it is, on some level, you know, what you see. But, you know, fairly quickly, you do see this guy as a guy. And a guy, you know, with a broad emotional range and obviously deep problems. But, you know, it counteracts what, you know, could be seen as, you know,

the hardships and the horror of the life he's living. Yes. Because I didn't find it, and I'm a guy that's, you know, was brought up by a woman who was terrified of, of weight. And I didn't, I, it very quickly,

it became a secondary thing to the emotional weight of the story. And that is a testament to you. Oh, thank you.

Do you know what I'm saying? Well, I do. I understand that this is, you know, I think I can explain how you understand. If Charlie is a product of his disorder, it's more of he wears on his body the trauma that he has been consuming and keeping inside of him and it's manifest outwardly on him. So, I mean, it's clearly he's in a lot of pain to talk about it for how he presents to the world and, you know, how encumbered he is. Yeah.

I mean, his body weight is indicative of the issues that he has accompanying the physical and the spiritual soul. His cross to bear to a degree. Just as big. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Because there is all those themes. Samantha Morton made a point in London on the press thing. She said, he's like Jesus. Yeah. Because there is all those themes. Samantha Morton made a point in London on a press thing.

She said, he's like Jesus. He just keeps taking it and taking it and taking it. I don't know how Christians will feel about that, but I hope not. That scene with you and her was kind of amazing. I feel disappointed that it didn't work out in our imaginary marriage you know because of how good samantha is she it was like stunning it was a you know she arrived with like a four 40 year relationship in place yeah for the two or 35 whatever yeah yeah and it was like the conflict emotionally for her and you in that moment uh she laments what could have been. Yeah.

And she doesn't take ownership of her own, I don't want to say avarice, but her own, well, clearly her own issues with alcohol. Sure. So that intimates that she was obviously, I don't know, that's a whole other kettle of fish, that that was one of the issues why they didn't stay together early on, had to factor in somewhere. that didn't stay together early on had to factor in somewhere. Yeah, it's complicated around the issues of addiction and sexuality. Also a type of addiction.

Yeah, but also just like, you know, following your heart. You know, I mean, because you're carrying the burden of shame, of grief. Guilt. Broken heart, guilt, right? Yeah. I mean, did you see it on stage? I did not, no. I did not. I didn't.

Where did it play? Did it have a run? Did it have a life? Absolutely. This is an award-winning play. It ran at New Horizons in 2010. That's when Darren saw it, actually, in an off-Broadway production.

And the rest is what he says. He was very moved by it and he contacted Samuel Hunter and they started working on bringing it to the screen. He's an interesting director, man. His last movie is sort of making the book of Genesis intimate

and now he's... That was a tough watch. Right? For, well, anybody. Yeah. So when you get offered something like this, I mean, how much of your own experience are you processing in this character? I don't have the lived experience of being a man whose body weighs hundreds and hundreds of pounds, mind you. But I don't think you need to be that guy.

The best that I could do is meet him halfway or as close to it as I could. So my own body was easily the heaviest it's ever been in my life. Yeah. And to, you know, whether unknowingly or not, have that be how you inform a performance. Because, I mean, you live in your own body. Sure. So how do you know what heavy versus not heavy feels like

when you're living that way? Right. Maybe you notice it when there's less weight or maybe you notice when there's more weight. But when you're living in it, you're just who you are.

Sure. But I needed to look at myself as if I was a costume in and of itself. Same way I looked at myself as if I was a costume when I was swinging around Same way I looked at myself as if I was a costume when I was swinging around on vines in a loincloth and smashing into trees.

Right. You know, that wardrobe was, there was none basically, but that was the job. That's who that guy was. Charlie is, he is as he presents a very large man. And to create that that that was the conversation that i had very candidly have with with darren yeah who had a plan in place which is to use prosthetics yeah to create charlie as you would do you know it's a character make sure that adrian

did but it's not a creature it's not a you know an alien or something like that whatever but it's the same approach right in creating i mean he could have been painted blue you know or whatever and it would be in terms of costume yeah it'd be a makeup and costume right but for charlie it was the same approach but but for you i mean like there's something struck me when i was thinking about it this morning is, you know, time passing. That, you know, when his daughter finally does show up, that there is a sense that in her mind she missed his whole life. And in your mind, you've held on to this relationship through that piece of writing and through what could have been. And, you know, and during that time, he has, you know, let himself go.

But like, I was just wondering. He might also be harming himself intentionally instead of just being neglectful with his health and overeating, you know. Right, no, definitely. It's like leaving Las Vegas for food. Yeah. But it's kind of the same thing.

Totally. Unless it's gambling or sex or, you know, pick your favorite vice. It's still the same dopamine cycle receptor that goes along with it. I mean, anybody listening, I'm no shrink, but I've spoken to a couple. I'm like, yep, same thing. You talk to people in doing your research? I spoke to people with eating disorder specialists.

Oh, yeah. I talked to people with eating disorders. I spoke to people who are bedridden, whose body weight is upwards of 500 pounds. Oh, my God. I know. And I couldn't be more forthcoming and open-hearted to tell me, answer the very, you know, almost ignorant question of mine, playing amateur interviewer on a Zoom call before we started going like, well, you know, how did it, how did it, what happened?

Yeah. And, and I noticed that among the eight or 10 people I spoke to, one common thread that they had was that there was someone early in their lives, most often an adult. Yeah. And, you know, heartbreakingly to me is their father.

Yeah. Who spoke to them in a way that was recriminating or as we say, othering, you know, who spoke to them in a way that was recriminating or, as we say, othering, basically just being a dick. You don't say things to a child to shatter their confidence or... Shaming them.

Yes. You can't do that. You shouldn't do that. But is that in a general sense or around weight? In this case, it would be about issues of weight, but that kind of attitude perpetuates itself and it leads in all sorts of other areas. And those are the, you know, the very complicated lives that their paths take. And the people who I spoke to let me know that, yes, they were medicating with food, self-medicating with food.

They were trying to fill a void. Some people are just, it's a sensory issue. My oldest son is autistic. He's a big kid. He's like six, five and a half. He's got like size 15 feet. He's the sweetest boy. He's 20 now.

And he's a big boy. And you try and tell a kid on the spectrum, you can't eat this. When you're just trying to get them to eat something some And, you know, you try and tell a kid on the spectrum, you can't eat this. When you're just trying to get them to eat something some days, you roll over quick. You do. Because, you know, and then they want to eat it because it's tasty and all. Because it's made to be. Because that's the American fast food diet process.

Mass produced, easily digestible, high sugar, empty calorie, salty, fatty. I mean, there are scientists who craft these flavors so that they target the consumer, the human tongue, in a way that's truth in advertising. You can't just have one. You need the whole damn box, if not the shelf. And that's what happens. And this has been going on for over 100 years.

Yeah. Really. And in talking to these individuals outside of abusive adults, is there usually a history of other trauma? Yes. I mean, I didn't get into those areas that they were uncomfortable with. Right. But I think we can all attest that there are overlaps in those kinds of issues. Trauma reaction. Yeah.

I don't know how to answer that one, but I think that they're very interrelated. Yeah, because, like, it's interesting in the movie that, you know, the story unfolds in the second, or the third, the last third of the movie. You know, pieces fall into place that sort of define some of your character's emotional behavior. Because it's a very, I don't want to spoil the movie for anybody. But, you know, it's a very specific reaction to somebody dying in a certain way.

But it seems like the issues were there previous. Yeah. Right? I agree. And you don't know what happens after whatever happens at the end of this movie, man. No, it's not important. It's not important. I don't even know if you would say it's hopeful, but it does release you.

It does. It does. For all the screenings I've attended with question and answer period afterwards, I mean, it's almost like a trope in Hollywood. Like, oh, my God, there were tears in everyone's eyes. Yeah, sure. Blah, blah, blah. But seriously, people stay rooted to the spot, even if the credits have rolled. Oh, yeah.

Some clap, some sob and hold each other. I know the first time I saw this movie, and I'm in it. I had to seriously move the chess pieces around on the board and then throw the board out and go, I got to think about this some more. I definitely had to, I had a feeling of, I just, I felt like you really need to gather yourself after this. And for reasons you might not even know why, and maybe it's not that important. Oh, for sure.

It is. If I, I was just saying, if I, you know, if I do come out to an audience who has seen it, the first thing I, you know, I would joke about is like, is everybody okay? And they go, ha ha ha. But, you know, seriously, some people are triggered by what goes on. but I was like, is everybody okay? And they go, ha, ha, ha. But seriously, some people are triggered by what goes on. And it's an emotional body blow for many people,

but it's also a catharsis that I think is, I don't know, I haven't seen it in cinema for a long time. And I'm, I mean, help me out here. I'm scratching my head like, what, Steel Magnolias? When did people really, for whatever reasons, have that collective, yeah. Well, I mean, this one's so complicated because it's not like, well, steel magnolias? When did people really, for whatever reasons, have that collective? Become devastated? Yeah. Well, I mean, this one's so complicated because, you know, it's not like just someone, you know, like dying of cancer.

Correct. It's not terms of endearment. You know, it's an aggravated and painful process of self-annihilation and grief. I mean, there seems to be a lot of grief in the air, generally speaking, right now. You know, after COVID and after, you know, whatever we went through as a country and a world and what we are going through, you know, the world is dying. And there's no way to, after a certain point, avoid that reality.

So I think grief in and of itself, however it's grounded in whatever character or situation, is speaking to the human spirit right now, right? So, I mean, when you say triggered, because like me, I would be somebody who is severely triggered by food issues, but that is not what got me emotionally. You know, what got me emotionally was just that need for redemption. And also the fact that he, out of his shame, thought that he deserved what was happening to him. And I think that people struggle with their secrets and with their, you know, their unprocessed grief

and with their own shame about how they behaved every day. So the spectrum of triggers, you know, is something. So, you know, it's hard to know coming out of that what would cause anybody, you know, to react to it, but it is a human existentially true reaction. Speaking of existentialism, we all lived under that clearly with COVID. Yeah. Will there be a tomorrow or next week?

We seriously, I don't know you, but seriously, we didn't know. We were scared, fear, blah, blah. I mean... Were you shooting during that, we didn't know. We were scared, fear, blah, blah. I mean. Were you shooting during that? Yeah, this was a COVID film. Oh,

so you, you know, you, oh my God. So on top of the prosthetic, you had to mask up and visor up. I couldn't.

Everybody else did, but I couldn't. Okay. I won't say it's fortunate, but I guess I was pretty disaster because I got it like that January, February. Oh, you did? Yeah, I got it like that January, February.

Oh, you did? Yeah, I did. Before the vaccine? Yeah. How sick did you get? I lost smell, taste. I had serious brain fog. Did it come back? Yeah, I've got it several times since then. Actually, I'm holding up four fingers. Oh, really? Yeah, really.

You got your smell back? Yeah, that came back. I mean, sriracha sauce might as well have been fucking toothpaste at one point. I was like, what is going on? And I just told the doctor about it. She's like, yep, there's so much we don't know about this. That's neurology for you, right? Right. And you feel all right now? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Well, I mean, it was really tremendous work. And I guess the thing that I got hung up on in knowing I was going know, knowing I was going to talk to you about time and about, you know, how time, you know, gets away from us, you know, and, and when, like when Samantha Morton comes in after not having seen you or the shape you're in, and it's just, you know, whatever emotion she was bringing in terms of her anger just kind of, you know, went away. Yeah. I'm getting choked up just thinking about the movie. Easy, man. Yeah. Yeah. I'm getting choked up just thinking about the movie. Easy, man.

It's okay. So, in looking at your career, I mean, did you, have you felt, I mean, like, I know that, you know, you never stopped working, but did you feel like time, you know, coming into this movie and certainly doing this kind of work and now getting the reaction you're getting, does it feel like you've lost years, you know, in terms of, you know, how you approach work or the work you've been doing? I don't know. It's a weird question i think um i don't feel like i lost years i've always kept myself busy no matter what and whether i was away from everything yeah or philosophically it was away from me right it is an open question and but we all know that hollywood's always been a heat seeking missile, and if you're out of

sight, you're out of mind. It's just a fact. And all careers go dip, no, da, da, da, but you can't be on all the time, and for me in my life,

the interim that I needed to take was very helpful in bringing me to where I am and who I am now, which is a more confident version and a less anxious version of who I was for having gone through all of that. I mean, all of the, call it the positive response to this right now. I don't know if I could have handled it back in the day when... Interesting. No, I just, I'm glad I wasn't given everything all at once. Yeah. I, I didn't have the emotional male toolbox to deal with that. If I think about the younger version of myself. Sure. I mean, I think about that. Yeah. I, I mean, I, I was chaotic, but you know, I don't know that I could have handled, you know, anything. And, and it is sort of, it's nice to be able to go to a job knowing that you're ready to do it.

Yes. And in this case, that we were going to be very good at it, too, for this reason. It sounds fundamental, but we rehearsed. Yeah. For three weeks. When do you ever get as much rehearsal time for a Broadway production to put on a movie? Never. In terms of movement and everything?

The whole stage, we had it taped out one-to-one mock-up that we rehearsed in a... It does stay in one place, doesn't it, really? It's one room with a two-bedroom apartment in anywhere. Idaho. Yeah. On the second floor. Where it always rains. Wherever it was, it's raining all the time.

It's a story that plays out behind closed doors all across the country, the continent, and world. Correct. I just, I know, it's like... But we don't know that much about it because we don't know what goes on behind those doors until this film says, hey, here's an invitation to come

in. Maybe people will look at that invitation, furrow their brow, and say, not for me. And that's fine. They'll turn on their heel and walk away or disparage it, kind of like the pizza guy. And the world's filled with pizza guys. The world is the pizza guy. The audience.

I, you know, let me in. I want to see you. I deserve to see you. What's going on there? I am curious. I want to know because I'm entitled to know, you know. None of your business feels Charlie. I am curious. I want to know because I'm entitled to know, you know,

none of your business feels Charlie. And till he's tricked and lured out to go and basically prove himself by exposing himself. And then what happens? He's judged automatically and condemned is basically just violent, disgusting and turned on his heat in the, you know, the world turns on his heel and stomps off into the rainy night and that's the pizza guy and it's devastating.

And also the daughter with the phone. Yes. Devastating. Also. Huh? stomps off into the rainy night and that's the pizza guy. And it's devastating. And also the daughter with the phone. Yes. Devastating. Also. Huh. So when you started, I mean, you're Canadian. Yeah.

I'm a Canadian born abroad, so I have dual heritage. Right. I was born in the US, but my parents are Canadian. Do they live in Canada? No, my mom's deceased and my father hasn't lived in Canada since the late, I mean, everyone, our family hasn't lived in Canada

since the 70s. It's so weird. I never understand that because like I'm dying to go to Canada. I'm ready. You've not been. No, I go all the time and I'm ready to leave.

I'm ready to leave. Oh, I get it. Do you feel better when you go to Canada? I do. I feel relaxed. I do. I feel there's an anxiety that's gone and somehow the air feels, I don't know, not smells better, but just feels better to breathe. Like immediately, dude.

When I get out of the airport. Exactly. In the airport. Yeah, you're like, it's not here. Agreed. Totally. I know. So why wouldn't you want to be in that?

I know. I do. Fuck it. Let's get out of here. I'm ready. Montreal is calling, brother. They've got a routine there for everyone. Dude, I've applied for permanent residency.

Seriously? Good for you. But you have a dual citizenship. I would definitely be. It's in the plan for the future. I'm looking forward to my fantasy of getting a two-bedroom apartment in the East Village in New York. I'm like, screw that. I'm going to Montreal.

Yeah, Montreal. Anywhere. Even Toronto or Vancouver. Beautiful. Good. Really good. Yeah. I mean, I'm like, screw that. I'm going to Montreal. Yeah, Montreal, anywhere. Even Toronto or Vancouver. Beautiful. Good, really good. Yeah, I mean, I'm up there all the time. Do you have family up there still? In Vancouver?

Yeah. I have extended family in Saskatoon and... Is that northeast Saskatoon? Where's Saskatoon? Saskatchewan. Saskatchewan? Saskatchewan. Where is that geographically? In the middle? MacDillon.

In the middle? Above Montana. It's basically Montana North. It's full of cowboys, pretty much. It's a prairie, but it's very country-western by comparison to America. I don't know if I've been to a... I should learn the geography if I'm really serious about it. I might have to take a test. It's part of being American.

Yeah, yeah. Well, no, but I've been to Calgary, Victoria, Vancouver. Also very cowboy. Calgary. Very cowboy. Very cowboy. They're good. I've been to Winnipeg, Montreal.

I haven't been up to the Northeast, I don't think. That's where my family hail from in CBI and Nova Scotia. I just did the Ancestry show. Finding Your Ruth? Yeah. Oh, I did that. With Skip? Oh, no. Yeah, with Skip. Yeah. I just did the Ancestry show. Finding Your Ruth? Yeah. I did that. With Skip? Oh, no.

Yeah, with Skip. Yeah. I just did it before Christmas. It's amazing, right? Eye-opening, to say the least. Really? Oh, my goodness. What'd you learn?

I learned that my great-great-great-great-grandfather, paternal grandfather, as a nine-year-old boy, escaped the potato famine with his mother on a rusty bucket of a boat and came across the Atlantic to Nova Scotia. Come on. A nine-year-old boy is, if he hadn't made that journey, hi, know me. Yeah.

How does Skip find that shit, man? I kind of don't want to ask. It's crazy, dude. You do your voodoo, but it's all backed up with fact. They tracked mine back further back than they ever have Ashkenazi Jew into Palos Settlement because all those records are gone. Yeah, there is. That's what Darren said. He's like, yeah, no, the records are gone.

Right. He's like, I told him I was going to do this. He's like, well, enjoy it because I don't know anything. Yeah. Well, they got pretty far back with my dad's line, like six generations into Belarus in that area. It's crazy. It's crazy. The names are crazy. The it's, it's all pretty much, it's crazy. And I, I found it to be like, I have to go take it in. I have to go look at the book. Yeah. Did you get your book yet? No, no. I mean, like you gave me the documentation. Well, when you're in it, you're just sort of like, what, what?

And you're kind of going through the show, but like, I really need to go look at the book. I do too. Like, what else did you find out? There was a candy salesman. Okay. I want to say, get this right, in Brooklyn, I think. Like a wholesale candy salesman. Several generations back in Germany, I'm descendants of Vintners.

There's still one country there that was planted. Wow. You got a good bunch of stuff. My great-great-grandfather was an artillery soldier for the Kaiser who saw actions decorated. World War I? I. And he then went on on he survived that meat grinder and

went and landed with his his wife and little boy uh-huh uh his son who was my grandfather um and uh became um a miner and did the did explosives underground because he was good at blowing shit up and so he went and you know broke coal. And they were miners, a lot of miners. Really? No kidding. That's a tough gig, man. I think about it. I mean, I was once in a mine in Louisiana.

It was an old salt mine. And they go there and they scrape the stuff up. And it's like being in a side of a dark, evil cathedral that's been turned inside out. Were you there to shoot? No, I was visiting with a friend. It's on Avery Island in Louisiana. It's an incredible inside out. Were you there to shoot? No, I was visiting with a friend. It's on Avery Island in Louisiana. It's an incredible place.

Wow. It's where they make Tabasco sauce. Okay. That would have been the salt from back in the day because it's just a mineral in the earth. Yeah. But now it's, I'm told it's the salt that's used on roads and stuff like that. Oh, that they get out of the hole? Yeah, on the world market.

I don't know if they don't get the salt for- Were you there as a Tabasco tourist? In a way, I was, yes. I took a tour of the plant. It was incredible. I loved doing that. I loved it. It was so great.

The second you walk into the plant, there are these giant vats of just chili, vinegar, and salt. That's it. And the man who's walking you through is just like bread-in-the-bone Cajun. He's got like a beard,. He's got like a beard and he's got like a beard cover on his beard.

And then he's got a head net on like everybody has to wear. And the second you open the doors and walk in there, it's like getting a mustard gas attack. You know, it's like,

oh, the assault to the eyes and nose and senses and everything just because it's Tabasco sauce. Yeah, sure. Airborne. And me and my friend were like, oh, wow, that stings. And the guy's like breathing through his nose deep going, no, I don't smell nothing.

And if you look really closely, you can see he somehow adapted a natural filtration system because his nostril hairs were so huge. He's like, you're filtering out all the gas attack. Oh, wow. I wonder if that happened over years. I wonder if it's an actual adaption. Evolved to protect himself. That's exciting, man.

I like to, I think I've been to, I went to the Ben and Jerry factory once in Vermont. Not as historical or exciting as Tabasco. Still fun. Sure, man. Ice cream's great. But Tabasco seems like this great American factory, a company that's been around forever. It's still a family business.

Did you know that? Yeah, and they still do the same thing, but they've added some flavors. Yes. They've got the Chipotle one and the green one. The green one's good. The green one's good, yeah. I still use Tabasco.

Given the spectrum of available hot sauces, Tabasco's very specific. Here's a real hot tip. If you're going to get those little itty-bitty cute sauces. Tabasco's very specific. Here's a real hot tip. If you're going to get those little itty bitty cute bottles of Tabasco, bring them on the airplane. Sure, man. Because it's the right size. I think you can bring.

The food is really boring and bland. And you're like, oh. Throw it on there. Well, you can also, I think that the first size is not, I think you could, that's probably less than four ounces for the airplane. If you really wanted to. You probably could. But it's fun just with a little tiny bottle.

And can I say also, I learned that those little tiny bottles are in their plant. They have a whole chapter, a whole area where the labels that are printed on those itty bitty bottles are done by special needs kids and their families in particular. Like they give jobs, vocations to, I think they call it their angels program. I want to get this right. To make the little labels? Yeah. And you can print them up for a wedding or something like that or whatever. Put your own name and number on as your business card.

Oh, I see. But all the young people and all the young adults who work there all have spectrum disorders. Somehow, as I say, they've been touched. So they take care of them by giving them a job, giving them a vocation. And they're so proud of what they do. That's nice. They love what they do working on that assembly line.

That's nice. It's really, really sweet. It's nice when companies do the right thing. Yeah. So have you tried, I've recently started using the Louisiana hot sauce. You ever use that? Oh, that's the red and yellow, the yellow label, red one.

Yeah. I would see those on crafty tables all the time. Yeah, I like them. I would work in Louisiana, you know, you work in Baton Rouge or. It's a different flavor, but it's the same ingredients, but it's a little thicker. It's salt, chili, vinegar. That's it. Yeah.

Basically. So you got a bunch of siblings, right? Three older brothers. How are they doing? Oh, good. My oldest brother is a grandfather several times over. My other brother is my middle brother. My little two brothers are, one of them worked for, he was boeing up until pandemic hit and then

everybody up in seattle yeah but then everybody kind of hit the road with their laptops yeah i have another brother i don't talk about him that much but um yeah i hope he's well okay and you got three kids yes and they're all good yeah my my guy said my oldest son griffin he's Yeah, like I said, my oldest son Griffin, he's the reason really why I wanted to be Charlie. And he's the reason why I could do any of this stuff. Well, they all are really. But that's because I passed through the threshold of I'm doing my professional aspirations and all that for my own selfish needs. And once you have a couple of kids or a kid, it's a switch flipped in my head. Maybe others have had this experience too.

But then suddenly I know, oh, this is why I've been chasing my ass around all my life, you know, and I wasn't getting fulfillment from something I thought was a very good accomplishment or others perceive that to be because I was doing it for myself. But once you start doing that, you said the reason why is on behalf of them. And the reason why you can do it is because of them. I could only play this role of Charlie because he's a man who feels loved deeply and in a way that is in, I, the way I, of course, everyone feels for their kids. I mean, the thought that they could be my own children, could be abandoned in a way that Charlie perceptively did the same thing when he left his marriage to be with a new partner whom he had fallen wholeheartedly in love with, but it completely shattered the whole ecology of his life to make it take that different path.

And he just wasn't aware of the fallout that could ensue for having not had done that before. But he, again, has to pay the bill on that one. When she comes back into his life and purview or he tries to get her back into his life. And the thought of that personally, doing that myself in the way that Charlie did, is so foreign to me that it breaks my heart to be put in that position. To think to be put in that position. Right. put in that position. Right.

And if, because you're experiencing, because you're an empathetic guy, you know, if you put yourself into that place, even as an actor, to think about,

you know, whether or not you know it in the moment of, or the month that you do it, you know, the heartbreak of it,

it's there. Right? From the action. You know, no matter how swept up you are, you know, it's got to be there somewhere. Yeah, so I would imagine having the opposite experience, you know, with children and then really putting yourself into that place has got to be devastating. Well, I'm definitely informed how I could be able to do this and certainly the reason why i wanted

wanted to do it and did your kids see the movie my sons did yeah uh olden leland did yeah they saw it in toronto and i think no no they said toronto and also they um yeah they came to the premiere and at lincoln center yeah that was a milestone in life for me. Yeah. What'd they think? They were like every other audience member. Devastated. They were giving me sort of a, on the one hand, like, who are you kind of look. But I know you because you're like my dad.

Right. I think what it did was it actually brought us closer in a way that I wasn't able to appreciate until it happened because I started seeing them as more fully formed young men than children and allowing them to see that vulnerability that I knew it would take to do the service it deserved on screen is a far removal from what I was, I'll cop to trying to like get brownie points in the works that I was,

the work that I was doing to, you know, pander to my children. I'll do an animal movie because I can take them with me. You did a lot of those kind of movies. Yeah, and they're great. They're fun, but you know. Popular movies.

For sure. Yeah. For all the right reasons, but you know, it's a. Oh those kind of movies. Yeah, and they're great. They're fun, but you know. Popular movies. For sure. Yeah. For all the right reasons, but you know, it's a. Oh, that's interesting. It's a fast food commodity and again, in its own way. I get that, but like when they were young, you were doing George and you were doing The Later Mummy. They were not.

But in those movies around, you know, they're in the diet of pop culture for sure for families and kids and, but you know, but they're right kids. So they're like largely unimp culture for sure for families and kids and but you know but they're right kids so they're like largely unimpressed for sure like if the mummy was playing on a screen

repeatedly somewhere in the house oh that's interesting they got detachment from it no I mean it'd just be like it plays seasonally like Thanksgiving

on a loop or something like that and maybe it was on they'd walk past it and go like trying to like look look it's daddy they'd be like

nah I've seen you in your underwear kind of thing you know and they want to like that and maybe it was on, they'd walk past it and going, like trying to like, look, look, it's daddy. They'd be like, nah, no, it isn't you. I've seen you in your underwear kind of thing, you know, and they want to look at Power Rangers. And it's funny to say that, but I think it also let me know that I kind of need to get out of my own way and not try and like suck up to them by giving them, you know, eye candy and, you know, or in brownie points that way. Right. But maybe that's age appropriate. Sure.

But to do work that welcomes them into, that's more fully formed and emotional, it's probably something I wasn't capable of anyway at that time. But it seems to me in just the sort of small amount of overview that I kind of looked at that there was, you know, a point within, you know, a few years there after you had this. And I see Pauly Shore a lot, by the way. You do? How is he?

He's okay. He's okay. He's out in Vegas now. You know, I work at his mom's club a lot. At the comedy store. Peter, her older son, or the middle son, is kind of running the place. And Pauly works there, but he kind of got bought out and now he's in Vegas,

where he seems to be having a nice time. Good for him. Running around with Nick Cage. He's okay. He still performs a lot. He's fantastic when he's on stage. He's the most linear that I have ever heard. He knows what he's going to be saying.

Yeah. Da-da-da-da. Well, you know what's funny now is he'll do a few minutes talking about how a lot of people remember him as the Wheeze. Of course. Right. But then, like, he pretty much does the Wheeze. He's still the Wheeze. He's still the Wheeze, dude.

He's still the Wheeze. Never not going to be the Wheeze. But he was always doing, bye, movie. I always felt like his older brother, like Polly. Sure. He kind of brings that out in you, right?

Oh, man. So, but, but it seems to me that, that there was some sort of, you know, major upheaval on a lot of different fronts for you.

And I imagine that was sort of a, a, a kind of strange you know, major upheaval on a lot of different fronts for you. And I imagine that was sort of a kind of strange baptism into adulthood emotionally, between the divorce and, you know, the sexual assault and, you know, having that stuff all happening at once or within years. It's, you know, like, it's not real easy to talk about, but I'll do my best if you want to. No, it was not pleasant. And it's, I guess, I mean, we all have issues and in my, in our own way, I guess that was my turn to go through those ones.

And how you, how you own it and deal with it after it's over is just, can be just as challenging as it is whilst you're going through it. Yeah. it's absolutely informed me to be the person I am now for not having had gone through it then um you know kind of like getting those knee and neck and back operations yeah I don't know if I got it out of the way early but I mean I I I went through those all those emotional that emotional challenge relatively early in life. And I think I kind of, I don't want to say I got it out of the way, but I mean, I wouldn't want anyone to have to go through that kind of nonsense again in their life. Any of it. Divorce is horrible.

Heaven forbid. Heaven forbid. But, you know, it seems to me in my memory that, you know, when you're addressing being sexually assaulted, that it makes you wonder how many men don't come forward. I think of that often. About because of the shame. That and the response that men want to counsel other men who do come forward is to basically challenge their masculinity and say,

why the fuck didn't you man up and deck the guy? That kind of attitude. Oh, right. Which would completely negate anything helpful. Right. Then you're dealing with an assault. Right. And that's a whole nother.

A violent assault in reaction to a sexual assault. Yeah. So now we compare the two, like which is the less reprehensible. So now we compare the two, like which is the less reprehensible. So no response is the best response, clearly, in that situation to mitigate the damage being done. But if you respond that way, apart from protecting yourself in the immediate moment, which is human instinct, of course. Yeah. Making, I'm sorry, I'm a little jerry right now.

That's all right. I think what I'm just trying to say is responding to that situation physically or something, that wouldn't help me at all. But the ramification is, well, then you have to kind of just keep your mouth shut. Suck it up. Yeah. Yeah. And then there's accompanying shame feelings attached to that and then feeling like you're complicit even for whole, like keeping someone else's dirty little secret.

Right. Oh, right. Yeah. And then the fear of a bully in your life or a boogeyman kind of thing, which I hope we don't have, but we do. Of it being held over you. It's menacing. Yeah. It's menacing. Yeah. It's menacing.

And look, the physical aspect of the incident compared to the feeling of powerlessness. Yeah. They're disparate, to say the least. Sure. There's a moment of astonishment and revulsion compared to what the ramifications and the outcome of that is. Realizing this changes everything. And how do you take ownership of that? Or can you? Or what's going to happen?

accompanying feeling of shame or being attached to you in a way that you know something that you didn't ever ask for you don't look, I mean, like, I'm a man. I know. I, I, I, it, it made me among many things. Yeah. Appreciate or feel more empathy for what, if you just flip the script or the genders. Yeah. If I was a woman, for instance, what would happen afterwards? Or if that was a woman, what would that mean? Especially at that time.

When was that, 2003? Three. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, just a lot of silence. A lot of the... Silence. A lot of the accompanying recrimination that attaches to it, like don't talk about this.

Yeah. Or else, whether it's implied or implicitly expressed, is there. Oh, that'll affect your career. Clearly. Yeah. And then, you know, while there may never be a way to prove anything like that. No response is a response, for instance, in your life. If things go quiet, you do start wondering, well, why? Right.

You start thinking, well, am I not worthy enough? Am I not good enough? Did I do something wrong? Would I annoy? Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera. You personalize it. You make it, then more shame your fault. Well, I've felt those ways for sure.

I mean, I've worked through all this stuff. That's good. Thanks. How long did you come out immediately after it? Well, I spoke up when it happened. Right. It was witnessed. Yeah.

So, yeah, I mean, there was fallout. Sure. Um, yeah, I mean, there was fallout. Sure. Um, press, press inquiry from like the times and, you know, again, I was, it, it just, it, it, it puts something in my purview that didn't want that. I didn't like, why did you do that? I don't want this. Yeah.

And now I have to deal with it. I don't want to have to deal with it. Like why'd you. Right. And now it's, it's like, and it's, it stays on you.

Like a feeling of, if you were somewhere to splash a, I don't know, Brandy with this invisible scarlet letter or something. Right. Everyone knows. Right. Um,

and I guess what it, like I say, for you go through all of the firewall of what happened, it brings you, brought me to another place where I feel like, well, now I know what my threshold is and I know what never to go back to and I can see a path forward. Yeah. Which is the medicine from the poison of the whole situation. And it was, you know, to be clear, it was a groping incident basically, right?

Correct. Yeah. you know, to be clear, it was a groping incident basically, right? Correct. Yeah. But the act of processing these things, and I can see it's still, you know, deeply emotional, but I have to assume that, like you said before, that, you know, people go through traumatic stuff, difficult stuff, and it seems that, you know, though you've worked through some of this stuff, I mean, it is, you know, what it is, but you've had, you know, a satisfying and good life and you've been able to be, you know,

to do the work you want to do. Yeah, thanks. I appreciate that. But I'm nobody's charity case. Of course not. You know, I'm not saying you're thinking that. No, not at all. But this is what I go on.

This one was on my head. Well, what I was thinking actually is that there is an actual redemption story in your life around this role. It's not a charity case, but I mean that the last two roles you did, which I thought were great. I saw Soderbergh's movie too because I talked to him and that was a great performance. Soderbergh's movie, too, because I talked to him, and that was a great performance. But in terms of you as an adult, you know, artist, that this is a redemptive story, you arriving at this role. That's what I see. There's a direct connection to be made between the two paths, I see.

I take your point. Right. Agreed. Yeah. I mean, like, you know, it's just sort of amazing to me that like, you know, I've been in and out of, of your work over the years and, and I, and I know you to do, you always sort of did, you know, big entertaining work for young people and then challenge yourself with more, uh, compelling and, and, uh, deeper adult roles. But it really seems that this thing is like, you know, you're not a guy that ever stopped working.

And this, in terms of personal risk and challenge as an artist, is like, it was deep and crazy. The adage from my training days in conservatory was go towards the fear. Right. Take the creative risks. That's where the most growth and discovery can be found or will come from. And I don't believe you should take so many risks in your own life. Right.

But creatively. You did both. You did both physically. It's better to, I think now it's better to know. He did both physically and... It's better to... I think now it's better to know. And The Whale is... The very title of the film is there to call out the prejudice of anyone who would think that's just a pejorative joke.

What does that say about what you think? Yeah. You're taking the name of this movie to be an insult, basically a slur. Well, really? Maybe you should come and see the movie. Yeah. And then by story's end, ask yourself how you felt before you walked in the door. Did you uphold any of those prejudices, any of that?

Obesity and disparaging it in word and deed and all that in our culture, our society, is like the last refuge of where bigots can act and speak freely. With this caveat that the terminology that's used is the vernacular. That can change. We're in a period now of world history

where we're going down the checkbox and ticking things off. You just can't do any longer and think you can just skate. You can't, you'll get called out. And with good reason. I think that weight bias is among those because I know the damage that it does to people. I know that those little kids who got told that they were fat when they were small didn't deserve that because they grew up and it affected their very health. There's scientific proof in how our minds and bodies evolve that changes the outcome of who we become just based on how we speak to each other. And we all know you don't tell a child that. Yeah.

If you do, you're morally bankrupt in my view, but it can do real damage by power of the word. I saw a plaque on a, a temple near a, outside of like a giant Buddha in Thailand years ago. There was a plaque that read painful indeed is vindictive speech. And it stayed with me.

Yeah. And it's like something that you would say that's kind of obvious to one another, like be kind. Yeah. But that's more explicitly giving you a command and a real good tip on how to get through, get through this life with patience and tolerance and dignity. Yeah.

Yeah. And I think that those ideas, those themes all exist and live within the world of this film. It's a journey of redemption. redemption yeah it's um it's a quest for proving that kindness and taking the high road in the face of recriminating discrimination while you do want to reach across the table and punch someone's face in or whatever it is won't help you you won't be killing him with kindness either yeah but you'll be preserving your very soul by taking the high road not engaging on that level it's hard sometimes it's it's

yes yeah that's why it's the high road what I'm just trying to say that it's the parallels of this film The Whale are similar enough to my own sensibilities

and my own experience that I hope, my hope is that it's not perceived as being in any way appropriating my own life to put it in a work of art to make myself different or better or anything like that. But I am finding a way to take this and use it. I got to use it for this, for the art, to take those risks. Yeah, well, I think what I was saying,

and I think what you're saying is correct and true, and I don't think I'm misunderstanding it, or anyone will misunderstand it, is that I don't think anybody really could have played it as deeply as you did because of your own life preparation for this. Whether I chose those preparations. That's right. Exactly.

Is that, you know, that the depth of conflict and pain and, you know, shame and all that stuff, it was, you know, I don't think I saw it as anything you were working through, but like I said, at the beginning of this interview, it very quickly wasn't about somebody, you know, affected by obesity. It was about a human who was struggling with a lot of different things and it was heartbreaking. And I just, what I guess my point is, is that, you know, whatever your life experience was, it gave you the empathy and the emotional range to take this on and do it effectively as an artist, not as somebody working through their

own problems. I appreciate you saying that. Yeah, man. I take comfort in it too. Oh yeah. Yeah. I mean, you know, it's just really like, it's just one of those things where this is what you do with your life. This is your art and this is your thing, man. And you know, and, and you keep doing it and this is just one of those amazing cosmic convergences, right? The stars do align sometimes. Yeah, man. And, and, you know, it just, it, it was like the perfect kind of, it was kind of genius for Darren to think of you and for you to take the risk to do it. And, you know, I'm proud of you. And I was deeply affected by the film. And I think it was really amazing work.

But it was not selfish work. Thank you. Thank you. That means a lot to me. Yeah. Well, that's how I saw it. Thank you. And then I cried a lot. Yeah. Well, that's how I saw it. Thank you. And then I cried a lot.

You're not alone. All right. Well, thanks for talking to me. I hope I didn't drag you through a difficult time. Like I said before, you can take the invitation with a furrowed brow and not go there, or you can accept it and go in the door and find out what it means in the sense that even melville who wrote that ignorance is the parent of fear which effectively means to me be curious no have knowledge yeah don't shy away from it or you'll be frightened all your life. Embrace the suck, essentially.

Yeah, yeah. And hopefully some good will come out of it on the other end. When the forest burns to the ground and yellowstone, years later, we see plants that have never been there. We see animals coming back. We see all sorts of properties of ecology and everything in a different way maybe less of it or a different kind but something good comes out something new yeah you weren't expecting or anticipate maybe that's beautiful maybe they'll take us to a different state of better evolution yeah yeah that's hope

that's hope yeah good talking to you man likewise thank you more yeah wait can i just do one one what the fuck yeah what do one what the fuck? Yeah, what do you want? What the fuck? There, sorry. It's my catchphrase from Doom Patrol. Is it? Oh, yeah.

If you haven't seen Doom Patrol. Do another one. What the fuck? Okay. Thanks, buddy. You're welcome. There you go. That got heavy, but it you know, it was good.

And I hope you all got something out of that. This trauma stuff is rough, man. It really is. The whale is now playing in theaters, and I think it's a must-see. All right, hang out, you guys. Will you? Can you hang out? You can get anything you need with uber eats well almost almost anything so no you can't get an ice rink on uber eats but iced tea and ice cream yes we can deliver that

uber eats get almost almost anything order now product availability may vary by region see app for details hi it's terry o'reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers

interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. People, not for nothing, but a lot of our recent guests are now Academy Award nominees. In addition to Brendan on today's show, you've got Sarah Pauly from Monday's show, who was nominated for Best Adapted Screenplay. Last week, we had Best Director nominee Todd Field. And last month, we had Rian Johnson, who's also nominated for Best Adapted Screenplay. Go catch up on all those episodes right now.

They're all in the free feed. And for full Marin listeners, we've got the latest Wrestling with Mark episode is up this week featuring AEW wrestler Chris Jericho. If you can milk a crowd. Oh, I will milk them till the cows come home. So you can just keep doing

the different parts of the story. I did a match in Chicago right before Thanksgiving with Ishii. and he's a japanese guy doesn't speak english he's really hard-hitting and i said let's we're gonna chop each other like slap each other in the chest yeah for like five minutes straight let's just see what happens and dude our chests were blood my eye was actually bleeding my black and blue and for five minutes this crowd was going nuts and then they go down a bit i said just keep going you know it's like

a comedy repetition always gets a laugh sure wrestling repetition will always and they came back up and they're just now they're just going bananas for this chop fight yeah and i was like this is great we don't have to do anything just chop each other for five minutes hit you with the finish and the match is done to subscribe to the full maron go to the link in the episode description or click on wtf plus over at wtfpod.com here's some guitar. Thank you. Thank you. Boomer lives. Monkey and La Fonda. Cat angels everywhere. lives monkey and Lafonda. Cat angels everywhere.