WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1408 - AEW (Chris Jericho, Tony Khan, Colt Cabana, Bryce Remsberg, MJF, Eddie Kingston)

Episode Date: February 9, 2023

As documented in the Wrestling With Marc series on The Full Maron, Marc undergoes a full immersion into the world of professional wrestling when his producer Brendan suggests Marc explore something totally new to him. With help from All Elite Wrestling, Marc learns the ropes and everything in between. Featuring talks with wrestling legend Chris Jericho (9:20), AEW owner Tony Khan (59:40), returning WTF guest Colt Cabana (1:33:30), referee Bryce Remsberg (1:37:35), AEW World Champion Maxwell Jacob Friedman (1:45:40), and the Mad King Eddie Kingston (2:01:25). Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated

category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die die we control nothing beyond that an epic saga

based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel to show your true heart is to risk your life will I die here? you'll never leave Japan alive FX's Shogun a new original series

streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney Plus 18 plus subscription required T's and C's apply. Hey, folks, you've been with me through the whole process of making this thing happen. You know the ups and downs of creating the thing. Some of you came to see it in different cities throughout the world and country, but this Saturday, February 11th at 10 p.m. on HBO, my special from Bleak to Dark premieres. All the work, all the hours, all that condensing, all that road time

all comes together this Saturday, February 11th at 10 p.m on hbo and on demand on hbo max so uh watch it watch from bleak to dark i think you know why it's called that don't you let's do the show all right let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fuck, Knicks? What's happening? What is happening?

Huh? How are you? Look, this is a special episode. There's some real production going on here, people. Real production. Yup. Well, there always is, but this is like, this is above and beyond. Listen, listen, my buddy, Brendan, who's also the producer of this show, decided to teach me about wrestling. Professional wrestlers came over to teach me about wrestling. The owner of a wrestling company taught me about wrestling. And then we went to the LA forum to watch wrestling.

I already know what some of you are thinking. What's this wrestling stuff? I know. I get, believe me, I get it. Why should I care about this? I know. Believe me, I understand where you're coming from. Here's the thing. We've been documenting this in a five-part series for Full Marin subscribers called Wrestling with Mark. And there are people who probably thought the same things before they heard the series. But here's an email we got from one of our Full Marin listeners. Subject line, loved Chris Jericho episode. I've always loved what you guys do with WTF. I've been listening weekly since the beginning, since 2009 that would be. With all due respect, I really thought the wrestling stuff on the full Marin was a silly idea, but I just listened to the Chris Jericho episode and I'm

ready to go back and listen to it again. It was a fascinating discussion that not only helped me to appreciate wrestling, but also helped me to further appreciate the creativity and inspiration that drives all types of performers and writers. Chris, Brendan, and Mark's analysis of wrestling as a formal constraint slash conceit alongside opera, film, and even figure skating liberated me from the common it's all fake and it's all for teenage boys attitude. Chris's sharing of the meta awareness that drives wrestling, such as his eliciting boos by insulting the crowd during commercial breaks and Brendan's comments on his hopes going into a match that it will fulfill his expectations of what the perfect beats would be really enlightened me. Thanks for your continuing efforts and evolution, Robert. Yeah, right?

So even if you're not a wrestling fan, we think you'll enjoy this episode today. We're presenting a shortened version of the Wrestling with Mark series, including all the interviews we did. That's with wrestlers Chris Jericho, MJF, Eddie Kingston, and Colt Cabana, plus referee Bryce Remsburg and AEW owner Tony Khan. But it all started, people, this whole thing started in my living room on my couch. This is a mission. It is a mission. It's a mission that I was excited to undertake because, well, you know, we were talking about and you've been talking about it a lot lately, especially as the new year has turned, that

you're kind of looking to i don't want to say you're making life changes but you're looking at your life in a way that you're trying to not pin it all to uh stand up and three people yeah and like obligation and like things that you have to do or in the intensity of you know having a list of things of of achievements that you have to do or in the intensity of you know having a list of things of of achievements that you have to to tick off right yeah well i think it's just uh you know i i make the choices of what i have to do but i always do them yeah like i i don't think i make choices to do things i just want to do because i'm not always clear what those things are. So everything becomes this chore after a certain point. Yeah.

So yeah, I've decided I'm going to spend more time maybe with people, having dinner parties or whatnot. That seems to be a big factor, a big part of it. And just doing things I enjoy, playing music. Yeah. And I guess the idea here is that that you know maybe maybe wrestling well yeah maybe but you know what i think it's more to me yeah i i think this was as much of a feeling that i had of wanting to share something with you as a as a friend of yours as someone who like if

okay well you know what do you do like you're you're friends you want to hang out well i actually am not sure that you even know like how important this stuff is to me like it's super important like you know how you uh say sometimes i'm very flattered when you do it's a very nice thing for you to say that you're like oh brendan's the smartest guy i know he knows everything about everything right he knows that like i know more about this than i do about anything on earth and i'm not joking about that i do think that like it'd be it's fun to be fun to go to the matches and that and you just experience the thing but i do want you to kind of take in how wrestling is made and done in a way that I think you as a performer can appreciate. Yeah. And the idea that you're building these matches based on the stories that they're telling, right?

Some guy hates another guy or whatever reason that you're having the fight. But sometimes these beefs go back years, right? They can go back years or it can be brand new it could be just this oh now these two guys have to have a fight to see who's going to be the next in line for the title or whatever well what do you do with that once you're doing it you have to have a match these matches if they're good have to tell a story in the match and it's actually much like a stand-up set where you kind of know a certain scaffolding yeah of how to build the set yeah like these matches have a scaffolding that you have to kind of follow yeah almost you know they they teach it to you when you're training to be a wrestler yeah but the best ones can do it and

they can do it without even talking about it beforehand they say let's just go out to the ring we'll call it in the ring and then they know they have the intro which is how they're going to kind of set up the match yeah then there's a part called the shine which is where the baby face the good guy yeah gets you know his moves in gets to look like a winner then you call the heat which is when the heel takes over yeah and hope looks lost yeah give some what they call hope spots where it looks like the guy's coming back and then he gets waylaid or whatever. And then there is the comeback. And then the comeback builds to a climax.

Yeah. And then the climax ends with one of them winning. Right. And then the heel cheats and wins or beats the guy clean, which tells you that heel is better, right? Because the general premise of wrestling is the baby faces are better than the heels. Yeah. That's why the heels are heels because they need to cheat right and all of this like has kind of joseph camberley like hero structure stuff yeah and so once you can kind of notice that you can

start to watch these things and go well that guy's really good yeah he made me really believe he was going to lose there and then he didn't yeah and Yeah. And you start to see these dudes play people like a fiddle. So what's interesting about it is that it is sort of an improvisation in this. Totally. In this structure. Yes. It's so funny because I did this wrestling show for years. Yeah.

And I don't think I had any sense of any of this. Well, I think also when you fictionalize wrestling, it becomes very easy to cut all of this out right someone watching glow is not interested in how they're building a match or putting it together you're just dealing with the characters yeah and it wasn't really talked about even though we did matches maybe it was talked about with the girls but i i didn't hear any of it yeah um i i didn't come empty-handed to do this today is there a wrestler in the car i recruited some help no we'll get some food and when we come back here chris jericho's coming over no way yeah

chris jericho's coming over and he's going to uh uh just talk wrestling with us yeah but then also talk about like this guy's been doing it since he's 19. Yeah. He's a real road dog. Yeah. He was involved in every promotion in the world, WWE, WCW, New Japan. So he can give you a real sense of what it's like to be basically a guy who's seen it all. And he's going to come by and we'll do that with him.

Get on the mics out in the garage? Get on the mics out in the garage, yeah. Okay, man. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations,

how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Be honest. When was the last time you thought about your current business insurance policy? If your existing business insurance policy is renewing on autopilot each year without checking out Zensurance, you're probably spending more than you need. That's why you need to switch to low-cost coverage from Zensurance before your policy renews this year.

Zensurance does all the heavy lifting to find a policy, covering only what you need, and policies start at only $19 per month. So if your policy is renewing soon, go to Zensurance and fill out a quote. Zensurance. Mind your business. So, as Brendan told you, I started in a wrestling-themed TV show. Yeah, I loved it. Glow. Oh, thanks. It was great.

But my character didn't need to know about wrestling, and I've continued that. I'm like, you know, I was in the wrestling world for a while, and certainly, you know, I've interviewed a few wrestlers. I learn more as we go along. But this is really the first time tomorrow that I'm going to go to the show. Yeah. Right. Now, do you guys all converge on this place together or you meet here?

Like, how do you travel as wrestlers? Okay, so it's a weekly show every Wednesday. Yeah. All across the country. Right. Right. So usually everyone flies in like on a Tuesday night and then we do the show on Wednesday and people leave on Thursday.

So you just go have your lives and this is your job. You do. And this week was different though because we had last Wednesday was Seattle. Yeah. Then we went to Portland on Friday. Right. And then we have Wednesday here in LA. Yeah. Then we went to Portland on Friday. Right. And then we have Wednesday here in LA. So a lot of people just stayed out here.

Sure. Well, there's stuff to do here. Well, yeah. And rather than traveling back and forth, that's a long flight to go back and forth. And how were the shows on the last week? Well, they were great. So we've never, our first time in Seattle. Yeah.

First time in Portland. And this will be our second time in LA with this company tomorrow. So it's great when you go to a new city because the people have never seen you before. Yeah. So they're always crazier. They're always loud and usually sell the most tickets in a market the first time you go. And then you have to, you know, if you put on a great show, then people will come back. Like in LA, we sold out the first show.

We didn't sell it tomorrow night, but there's still going to be over 10,000 sold. So that's a great, that's a great great night but you don't worry about people not coming back i mean what is it sometimes i mean but like you know we go to certain markets where you're just there like every three or four months and then you start to burn it out so you got to get away from it for a while you know yeah why because it's the same crew you guys are doing different matches it is but just i mean it's like anything else you can't if you're a rock and roll band you can't go to you know la every month or just, I mean, it's like anything else you can't, if you're a rock and roll band, ACDC, you can't go to, you know, LA every month or, well, I'll skip this week.

I mean, it's like, think about your tours too. Right, your comedy stuff. You have noticed, like, you'll go to a place, and then if you go back, you're like, oh, I can't do the same stuff. I can't. Well, that's it. But, like, you know, I mean, but I, it's, you know, but I have to write a whole new act.

It would seem that the stories or the matches or the evolution of characters within the— I think the best way is to go to a market like twice a year. Unless it's in New York or in L.A., then maybe three times a year. That's good. That's what you should be doing. Yeah. Because to play the big venues like this, I mean, like I said, that's a good way to keep the product fresh. And plus, yes,

you're always doing new matches and new work because even if you're not in the same city, our show is every Wednesday night live. Right. So you have to hook people with the storylines,

much like GLOW. Yeah. What happens this week leads to next week, leads to the week after that, drama, you know, all that sort of thing. So how long have you been in it now?

32 years. And you seem well. I feel well, but I lost my fucking mind 15 years or 20 years ago. But yeah, 32 years. And you seem well. I feel well, but I lost my fucking mind 15 years or 20 years ago. But yeah, 32 years in the biz. And physically,

you can still take it. I just watched a match from a couple weeks ago. When was that? From New Jersey. Yeah, we watched Full Gear this morning.

Oh. And so we watched your four-way. The four-way, gotcha. Yeah. Yeah, like, let's see,

about 10 years ago, I started doing yoga. Really? That helped out a lot. Did it? It really did. I don't do it now, but that was kind of the gap that bridged for me to continue to do this. Because before that, it's a lot of weightlifting and how much you bench.

So no stretching? You weren't stretching properly? I wasn't stretching. Yeah. Now I don't really weightlift anymore. I do a lot of kickboxing now. Okay. A lot of cardio stuff.

I really watch my diet. Yeah. I lost a lot of weight earlier this. Okay. A lot of cardio stuff. I really watch my diet. Yeah. You know, I lost a lot of weight earlier this year, about 30 pounds. So that kind of helped a bit as well. So yeah, as you get older, you have to just morph your training and how you live, you know?

Yeah, I'm trying to do it myself. Yeah. So you stopped lifting just because it was counterproductive? I guess. I mean, like I said, when I had a really bad back issue that yoga helped me through

and yoga was a really, um, physical transformation just from doing that. Tighten, you know, like you feel your core lock in. Your core locks in. Yeah. Even the different muscles that you use and all that sort of thing.

There's a lot of kind of isometrics in this yoga program, which is, you know, you're basically lifting weights without lifting weights, slowly moving your arms back and forth, which gives you a pump, that sort of stuff. So that kind of took me away from the weight training. I'm really hurting my joints now. My shoulders are kind of fucked. My knees are kind of fucked.

But if I don't lift weights, I don't put extra strain on them. So that helps, you know? Yeah. I'm finding the joint thing is happening. Yes. As you get older, it's a thing. Like I'm 59 and I just started like a year or so, in the last year, the joints. And for me, the stretching of the yoga really helped with all of that stuff.

Yeah, I just started doing it again. Yeah. The balance is a bitch. Right. Yeah. One leg up, one leg behind, falling all the time. It's embarrassing sometimes. But, you know, I never stretched, ever.

Never stretched. And I couldn't even bend over and touch my toes. And as a pro athlete, why am I not doing this? You've got to stretch. So, yeah. So it really made a difference. So when you started, where were you? So I started in, I'm from Winnipeg, Canada.

You're Canadian? I'm Canadian, yeah. You lucky fuck. Yeah. You can just leave. I can just leave whenever the fuck I want. Oh, that's the best. I can go on both sides of the border.

But Winnipeg, you want to get out of. Well, it was freezing up there. Yeah. So I was in Winnipeg. I moved to Calgary. That's where I trained. Calgary, another not great place. I love Canada.

But Winnipeg, it's just blown out tundra. Yeah. And Calgary is like a bunch of yahoos. Well, yeah. The West, the cowboys the cowboys are all yeah um so that's where i trained though before vince started the wwf uh which existed before he took it national there was territories so you'd have a calgary territory dallas there'd be an la territory so guys would just go around the country stay in this territory

for a year or two but were there gigs within each territory? Is that how it worked? They had their own little running company where you do six shows a week, traveling all around the area. So you would get a little bit stale and then you'd move to the next territory. So it was a very nomadic lifestyle back in those days. How long would it take to get stale? It depends on how hot you were and how you got your character over.

Because wrestling is all character. The moves are important and the matches are exciting, but you have to connect with the audience. Yeah. Just like comedy or acting or anything, you have to connect with the audience. If you can do that to a high level, the audience will pay to see you and they'll be interested in what you're doing. And that's a combination of things in terms of character.

Character, knowing how to play the game. Charisma. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Stories have a lot to things in terms of character. Character. Knowing how to play the game. Charisma. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Stories have a lot to do with it. Yeah. The stories that we're telling. Because that's the number one thing of wrestling. It's storytelling.

Yeah. That's why people are. And you'll see tomorrow night there's going to be some crazy matches that the athleticism is through the roof. Yeah. But the stories behind them are the most important thing. Before watching it with Brendan, it wasn't that I judged it because I talked to a lot of wrestlers. I understand that it's an art and that it's a performative art.

Right. But I didn't really believe that I'd necessarily get past the knowing that it's not really about whether... It has to be convincing. Sure. It has to be good. Yeah, it has to be good. Yeah, but you know that there's an orchestration of moves. But like, it very quickly just became about, I became invested in the character.

Well, and you'll see, like for example, tomorrow night, my gang, the Jericho Appreciation Society. Yeah. I had a match against this up-and-coming guy, Ricky Starks, who's getting really popular with the crowd. He beat me. Ricky Starks, who's getting really popular with the crowd. He beat me. And then after he beat me, my gang kicked the shit out of him and threw him through a table and really kicked his ass. Right. Oh, yeah.

So tomorrow night we're going to come out to gloat about how great we are. So you guys are the heels? We're the heels. Yeah. And then Ricky will come out and Action Andretti will come out and there'll be a little confrontation, which will lead to the next week's storyline. So some weeks you wrestle. Yeah. Some weeks you do the storytelling. There's also a huge comedic, ridiculous, preposterous side to it next week's storyline. So some weeks you wrestle. Yeah. Some weeks you do the storytelling. There's also a huge comedic, ridiculous, preposterous side to it as well.

Yeah. Which is something I've always been attracted to also. Yeah. I can go have the five-star match and I can also do a song and dance routine and see me and my shadow on the show, which we did last year, a couple of years ago as well. Yeah. All of that stuff to me is wrestling. Wrestling is all things to all people to me.

So you started doing it, how old were you? I was 19. Yeah. And then, you know, by how, when did you sort of get into the American territory? Well, um, so at the time, this is 1990. Yeah. So at the time, like the biggest, the guys were all huge, Hulk Hogan and that type. It was six foot eight, 300 pounds.

That's when he was a kid. That's, well, that, and that's, and I that's and i was 5 11 you know 195 200 pounds so i always knew i wouldn't be the biggest guy on the show yeah but i could have the biggest character and the most charisma the biggest personality and that's what i did in canada but then what where i really started getting my break was over was overseas in japan yeah and in mexico because they didn't care as much about size yeah they cared about match quality they cared about match quality. They cared about charisma, connecting with the crowd,

connecting with the audience. How's it different, though, over there? Like in Japan, what are the expectations? Japan is a little bit more hard-hitting, a little bit less of the interviews and the American... They just like the physicality? The physicality of it,

the art form of it, right? Mexico was the other side, way much more cartoon character for kids you know everyone's wearing the mask the lucha libre thing so america is kind of a combination of the two japan's much more hard-hitting mexico's much more of the of the cartoon it's like it's sort of broad they because i noticed that a little bit with some of those luchadors for that we watch today yeah with that you were fighting with the lucha brothers but what i'm saying is i became a big star in japan as a bad guy and a big star in mexico that we watch today that you were fighting with, right? The Lucha Brothers. The Lucha Brothers, right.

But what I'm saying is I became a big star in Japan as a bad guy, and a big star in Mexico as almost a teen heartthrob. Like I was on the cover of the teen magazine and all that stuff. So by the time I got to the States, which is your question, it was probably 96, so I was six years in. But I'd already become a pretty big star in other countries before I came and became a star in the States. So you're paying some dues.

Did you do those gigs that comics do, like hell gigs? All of them. I did a kid's birthday party once for a hot dog and an orange juice. Really? That's my best payoff, yeah. But yeah, you do all those ones. I mean, I remember in Mexico, some of the places we worked were so shitty. I remember a guy taking a shower out of the back of a toilet and he's like, no, it's okay.

It's clean water. I'm like, dude, it's from a toilet. Like, I don't care how clean it is. A toilet is a toilet. So, but they always had a ring. They always had a ring. Sometimes there are boxing rings, which are hard like this table. Right.

You're not doing any, we call them bumps and not bumps of cocaine bumps or the falls that you take in wrestling. You're not taking a lot of bumps in a boxing ring because it's just too hard. So you would just go out there and just pantomime and just fuck around because it's not on TV and there's 50 drunks in the crowd. Just get the hell out of there and get your 200 pesos

and go home. Was there ever nights where there was like 10 people? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. The smallest crowd I think I wrestled was in Rimby, Alberta, seven people. And it's hard. Listen, I could wrestle in a stadium tomorrow Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. The smallest crowd I think I wrestled was in Rimby, Alberta, seven people. Yeah. And it's hard. Listen, I could wrestle in a stadium tomorrow in front of 70,000 people

and be less nervous than wrestling in front of seven people. You've got to hold seven people. And you can see it. You see each person in the crowd. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You actually get to know these people. I'm sure you've done the same gigs. Like, oh, the guy with the dark hair is getting bored.

I better do something. And then there's the war against embarrassment. Because when there's seven people there, it's already a little sad. It's terrible. And the people that are there are embarrassed. Yeah, everyone's embarrassed. It's like, we made the wrong decision to come to the wrestling tonight. It's the same with the band.

Sometimes you play, it's like, oh, fuck. Not anymore, thankfully. But we played the gigs with seven people with the band, too. That sucks also. I never understood it. But we played the games with seven people with the band, too. That sucks also. I never understood it. But you'd go do the show. But when I'd get there, I'd be like, do you want to go? Do you want to just leave?

You can go. Really, I feel bad for you. It's so embarrassing. It's a little weird. But they always stay, dude. They do. And then, once again, that's the real secret. That's paying your dues.

If you can get a crowd of seven interested in what you're doing yeah that's a hell of a talent to be able to have well they're also they don't want to hurt your feelings so they're gonna say if you walk a crowd of seven even two of them it's that's gotta be worse yes because you don't know if you walk anybody when there's 20 000 people and that was the thing too during the pandemic we had to wrestle in front of no people because we we have our weekly TV show. It's like, listen, pandemic or not,

you got to put on a show. Yeah. And I remember a lot of the people like, I feel bad for the young guys with, you know, there's no crowds. I was like, fuck the young guys.

They feel bad for me. Yeah. You know, the longest Vincent's I wrestled in front of no people. Like it's been 30 years. It's really hard to wrestle in front of people. Yeah. I mean,

you got, you go, you need the crowd that badly. You don't, I mean, not need, but I mean, you pace yourself with the crowd. Yeah. A lot of times, at least for me with the experience that I have, is I base my match around the crowd that we have. You know, I know of, like, for example, last week in Seattle with Ricky Starks. Yeah.

I knew the Seattle crowd was going to be crazy. I might have put together a different style match if we were in Washington, D.C. The crowd is not as crazy. Yeah. Or Bridgeport, Connecticut. What would you do? Would you make them crazier? Just more the drama.

For example, if I put them in the submission hold, I know I can hold it for five minutes. Yeah. And the crowd will be excited about it, cheering and hoping that he gets out and we can mess with it. You just know. And that's just...

So yes, you do use the crowd. Of course, yeah. To base your performance on. The flow, yeah. The flow. mess with it like you just know and that's just so so yes you do use the crowd of course yeah to base your performance on the flow yeah the flow so like so you you don't make the transitions as quickly or like if the crowd if you can milk a crowd oh i will milk them till the cows come home so you can just keep doing the the different the different parts of the story i did a match in chicago yeah right before thanksgiving with ishii and he's a japanese guy doesn't speak english he's really hard-hitting and i said let's we're

gonna chop each other like slap each other in the chest yeah for like five minutes straight let's just see what happens and dude our chests were blood my eye was actually bleeding my black and blue and for five minutes this crowd was going nuts and then they go down a bit and i said just keep going you know it's like a comedy repetition always gets a laugh sure wrestling repetition will always and they came back up and they're just now they're just going bananas for this chop fight yeah and i was like this is great we don't have to do anything just chop each other for five minutes hit you with the finish and the match is done it was awesome and like i said the but the drama of it worked because the crowd was so hot yeah you know so all of that stuff plays in you know this because you're a live performer too there is a there is a trick and um a way to play a live crowd yeah and if you can do that you'll

always have the best shows and it takes a while to learn but once you got it you can do it every night so when you were in that the the four people what do you call that for the four-way match the four-way like i mean do you all you guys just know those moves in terms of synchronicity and movement even when there's two on one you just know those instinctively and you just call them and you know what to go to yeah you talk about it beforehand oh you do especially for a match like that because there's four different players yeah there's always something going on yeah but if you remember that match the the biggest reaction of the whole match is when my guy, Sammy, and I were, when he turned on me. That there, when I spun him around and that drama was.

Oh, after you hugged him and then he went at you? Yeah. And then we made a deal like, you know, you're not going to go after me. You're going to help me win. Yeah. Right, Sammy? And he's like, all right. Yeah.

That was the story we told going into it so that when he I finally hit him with a move yeah didn't care a thing about it and then he was kind of like well this is fucking shitty so then he turns on me and that moment was so dramatic that people went nuts for it I'm like that's the best that's wrestling right because they I mean like someone like brendan knows everything that can happen but you don't know what will happen or i think of the way i put it to you is that i come into it and i come into every match hoping that the that they will make the right dramatic choices in that scenario and then when and and i know that they're professionals so so uh especially like you're in a national promotion like this,

they're not going to half-ass this. They're going to do the full match. It's going to be good no matter what. They're going to do a good performance. But the perfect example is the main event of that pay-per-view. Going into that pay-per-view, following the story of MJF and Moxley and Regal, me and my friend who went to that event in Jersey,

we thought, well, he's got to cheat, and he's got to be helped by Regal, like me and my friend who went to that event in Jersey, we thought, well, he's got to cheat and he's got to be helped by Regal. That's the story. And look, I would have gone. I would have had a great time in any other way watching those matches. It was a great night, you know, really well done show. But that was the key because I was like, they hit the best emotional note that you could hit is that he,

it was all laid out for weeks. If you got to that point. Yeah. Well, we did something just a few weeks ago. I saw this kid back in October, good looking kid, pretty agile.

And then I said, let's, let's do a promo, an interview with him. He was a good talker. Yeah. I said, let's hire him,

but just keep him at home. I got an idea. Action and ready. Two or three weeks ago, I lose my title and I'm going to have a tune-up match against some jobber

and I'm going to get back on track and go back after this title again. So this kid comes out and we have a match and I'm treating him like a jobber, like a squash match. I'm just throwing him around,

beating him up. He gets really no offense. People are chanting, let's go jobber. like a squash match. Yeah. I'm just throwing him around, beating him up. He gets really no offense. Yeah. People are chanting, let's go, jobber. Like, they're behind it. They're laughing along. Yeah. Hit him with my finish.

One, two, he kicks out. Yeah. And that moment there, people were like, oh, shit. Yeah. And then the buzz starts going, what's going to happen now? We've never even seen this guy on TV ever. Yeah. And then we continue forward, and then suddenly he gets me and he gets me again.

He gets out of this. He gets out of that. Bam, boom, boom. Hits me with a move. One, two,

three. He wins. The crowd goes fucking crazy. He's running around slapping hands. He's jumping up and down. People are going nuts. It's one of the greatest moments that we've had maybe in AW history because no one knew this guy.

And by the end we had made a new star. Yeah. It doesn't hurt me to lose. Yeah. Yeah. But we made this guy and that's what it's about. It's about making stars and about making people react and not, no one,

nobody would have guessed that he was going to win. Well, especially this, there's a, you know, watching a week to week, you, you,

you know, pick up certain cues and that these are kind of things I have picked up since I was a kid that if you introduce a guy chris jericho for instance will be in action no name of an opponent or whatever that's going to be a squash match that's a jobber yeah i don't even know if this was on purpose they might have been it might not have been but when he was introduced they put the graphic was messed up it said your name my name yeah and and you just it just looks like they don't give a shit about this guy because he's just going to lose.

And that was a mistake, but it was a happy accident. Perfect, yeah, yeah. Amazing. And there are also, there have been matches where a guy will get a little shine on a big star.

I'm thinking of Triple H and Takamichi Noki. Right, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it had that formula where you could plausibly see that this guy was going to get an upset victory but

in your head you know there's no chance right so you're just waiting to when the finish actually happens and the amazing thing with this match was that Chris has conceivably

three finishers right so it's the finish that he mentioned and it was one two kick out okay he still got two more in the chamber and each time this guy gets some shine gets ready to build then i forget he went for a a move where maybe it was his moonsault he missed and he gets up and chris is going like this like he's gonna hit him with this spinning spinning elbow right and the crowd immediately is booing the shit out of the match

because they're like, now we know the end, right? This is it. Now I can boo Chris because he's going to win and he's the heel. And it fucked up. He didn't get the move. The kid gets out of it again. And now it's all over. You're ripping up the crowd again.

It's like, this is what I've been trying to let you in on my enjoyment of this as to why i like it so much and it's this exactly this but once again like we said it's the story that we're telling like you just you called it as a fan watching there's no way this guy is gonna win yeah but what if he did and then suddenly it's like this guy could win but he still won't right like we know what's gonna happen jericho's gonna him look great. Then the next week we've got a new guy. Yeah. But then he gets out of this move. Okay.

Well, this is what he got out of that move. And then he hit, and then he wins. It's like that drama and that reaction. That's what wrestling is for me. Yeah. It gives a shit about the fucking moves. It's creating the story to get people to go, ah, this is great. Yeah.

Like the best movies. Yeah. The best TV shows, whatever it may be. But now this guy's got to do the job right well the thing is now and everyone's always like

what's the follow up you just put this guy over because everyone's a know it all now too they go on fucking Twitter they're bare like I know what the follow up is

the next week he comes out and rescues another guy so then I do this thing where I throw fireballs in guys faces so I fucking throw a fireball in his face.

Okay, you got the big one over Chris Jericho. Quit while you're ahead. Go home. Never come back. So the guy that I beat up that he came to make the save for, Ricky Starks, we have this match last week. And once again, Ricky's probably not going to win. He's a bigger star star but he beats me

clean clean he wins so then my guys come to beat him up who comes down to fucking save the day the guy who threw the fireball in a couple weeks ago now he's back again but we fuck him up too yeah so now the storyline is these two guys ricky starks and action and ready are like these kind of two partners that are thrown together just by the fact that my guys beat them both up right so now they create an alliance this guy ricky's getting higher up the food chain action's getting higher up the food chain my guys are getting some great shit it all fucking works together you know i'll get i'll give chris some praise here too because one of the things that uh you know hooks me into watching is do they get the little details right and you know i think tony is very uh you know meticulous about a lot of things uh and you know this is only 30 seconds of airtime

yeah but they came back from a break after chris lost this match and he is destroying everything in the backstage just breaking and you know it's like that sells the story yes because if you were like whatever there's a fluke i don't care you know you laugh it off or whatever that diminishes the story but you take 30 seconds of the show and all it's very simple just have him go tipping over you know electrical boxes or whatever backstage against the wall it helps yeah it worked because then it's like he really is pissed off. And that's a good thing too, Mark, being the bad guy. Yeah.

It's like there's no rules. Yeah. I can color outside the lines as much as I want. Now, I'm a good baby face. Yeah. But it's always so much more fun to be a heel. Yeah. How could it not be?

I've always been better as the bad guy. Yeah. I've never been world champion as a good guy. Yeah. The Ocho every world champion as a good guy. The Ocho every time has been a heel. Like you said, that's the art form to it. And the heel usually leads the match. Like the guy leads the girl in the dance.

The heel leads the good guy. Why is that? I don't know. It's just always the way it's been since since i came into the business i think maybe because the heel used to have more experience than the up-and-coming good-looking baby face yeah so you could help run the match better the old beat-up guy yeah i guess and i'm the old beat-up guy with the hot young upstarts but um so so i think i like to be in that position of controlling the match a little more. And you can work together. But the heel just always has more of a say

in what's going on. When you were coming up, were there guys that you looked up to or that you learned from? Oh, absolutely. I mean, there's regional guys that never made it out. Yeah, it's the same with comedy. Right?

The geniuses. You go, it's like, fucking this guy. Why did he never make it? What's the answer usually? Timing, probably. You know what I mean? There's the answer usually? Timing, probably. You know what I mean? There's just some guy. Or they got that thing inside of them

and they're not going to let him get famous. You're a guitar player. How many guitar players do you know who are like, how the fuck did this guy never make it? Yeah. But you're right. The thing inside of them that prevents you from taking a chance to go to the next step.

Or that one thing that's just not quite, I don't know, it's a combination of things. Timing's one thing. But some people just don't ever come into their own. And you've got to do that to actually have an honest shot at it. You do. You have to have a little bit of arrogance, a little bit of fearlessness, a little bit of foolishness to make it. You really do.

I mean, think of all of us that, I mean, you've made it huge in your career. Just to take that step the first night you stepped on stage with three minutes of material. Like I tried standup comedy when I was, and I didn't, I sucked. It was terrible. Yeah. Thankfully I was good at music and wrestling.

So I stuck with that, but like you tried it. I like that was in the mix. It was. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I remember I did a big routine on a golden topping is what they call butter on popcorn in Canada.

Yeah. Golden topping. I can't remember exactly, but I relate it to sex and a golden shower. So maybe that will tell you why my routine didn't do so well that night. But I mean, just to take that chance to make it, it's not easy to do, right? And maybe some guys weren't able to go for broke. Right.

But what's also hard is if you get the opportunity to keep doing it, then you realize, well, fuck, now I'm in. Yeah. There's no choice. Yeah. And there's no going back to anything. Yeah. So you got, you got to ride it out.

I think it's one thing if a regional act doesn't quite get, because I bet you some of those guys are still working, right? Well, then they did. Yeah. I mean, not now because they're probably so old, but, but because the guys were probably 10, 10, 15 years older than me. Right. But they probably worked much longer.

They probably had 25 year careers. Right. And then they'll probably, you know, driving a taxi, and on Saturday night, they're out to go do a match. Yeah. You know? Well, I wonder if they're okay. I always wonder about those cats.

If they give it up gracefully. Oh, yeah. You know, did you ever see that movie called The Wrestler with Mickey Rourke? Yeah, sure. That, I know so many of those guys throughout the years of the guys that were made it big and then they're now they're working back in the you know community center after literally playing madison score garden how does it get to that point and thankfully i never i never had that i never from the moment i started wrestling i think i had a bar gig for the first year and a half i have have never had another job. Of course, I've had a million jobs.

But I never had to get a day job since I was probably 21. Right. But do you think, Chris, that maybe you also, because you have a kind of spirit of entrepreneurship, and you've set yourself up with a lot of gigs. Well, yeah. And I do think, like I was saying that to Mark, that you're one of these guys, and I wouldn't call you a survivor in the business.

You're still a top star, but you have done what a survivor would do to set themselves up so that they're not in that position. You're still wrestling, and you're wrestling in the highest possible way, having long matches, big bumps, all this stuff, but you still have three or four or five things at any given time that you can rely on. Well, I never wanted to— Get the day job. Get the day job or have someone tell me what I have to do. Obviously, I have a boss. We all have bosses, but I really work for myself. And I think one of the things I've always been good at is I'm not afraid to take a chance.

I left WWE to go to Japan, then went to AEW. I could have, like, we didn't know what AEW was going to do when it started. Like, do you know how many upstart wrestling companies there's been? Has there been a lot? Been a lot, but not, but not like major ones, but you hear it all the time. For just the thought of AEW to leave and for us to be as big as we are right now, it's actually be a legit competitor with WWE.

Yeah. No one could have guessed that. Yeah. So it took a lot of guts to give it a try. Like, fuck if, if this works, my legacy is even bigger.

If it doesn't, then tail between the legs probably go back to WWE or whatever. But I, I didn't want to do that. Well, how do you, how do people like, again,

you know, but I, I don't know, like Well, how do people like, again, you know, but I don't know, like how do they treat guys who are getting older at WWE? Well, I mean, it's weird. Like back probably in the 90s, there was a company called WCW that became very popular because Hulk Hogan went there, Macho Man Savage, Piper, because Vince got rid of all those guys because in his mind, when you hit 40, you were done. Meanwhile, regional like Mick Bockwinkle, I think, was the world champion when he was 50 and still awesome.

Yeah. You know, I'm 52 and I was just one of the world champions. And I'm still, like you said, doing some really great work. So I think WWE had that mindset, but then they kind of got away from it. Yeah. Because the adage of age is just the number is so true. Yeah. You know, it really is.

And to me, people say, well, how much longer are you going to do this? It's like I could end tomorrow. I could end five years from now or who cares? Sting is 63. Yeah. And still doing great stuff. So who knows, man? To me, as long as you can still compete at a high level, like I have a high standard for myself.

If I went out there and like two, three, four times in a row, I felt like, oh, like I'm starting to fucking phone this in. I would quit. That happens with guys too. They've, I mean, you, you see it happen. You can lose it in a second. Who knows, man. Right. So that's why I never thought wrestling would last forever because it can't, but I can play music until the day I die.

I can do a podcast the day that I can act until I can do a crew, whatever, all these different things that I do. Yeah. It's show business, right? Sure. So the physical aspect might go away, but in the meantime, I built all these other avenues that it's like, dude, I'll just step. I'm looking at Mick right now.

You've got this great poster. Give me shots over here. I saw Mick in London this summer. He was 79, almost 80. He's still fucking great. Sure. Not for an old, no, for anybody. Sure. He's Mick Jagger. He's Mick Jagger. I saw Mick in London this summer. He was 79, almost 80. He's still fucking great. Sure. Not for an old, no, for anybody. He's Mick Jagger.

He's Mick Jagger. I saw him. But, you know, you can see that, like, God knows what he has to do to get up into that mind to do that. It's kind of amazing. It's amazing. But he does it, right, Mark? He does.

He does do it, you know. Well, I've been talking about it. I saw the Stones do their last show here in Florida. Yeah. The last tour. With the Hard Rock? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Right. And people are like, was it great? I'm like, no. It was the Stones, though. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like you're excited to see them, and they put the effort in. Yeah. And Mick is carrying the whole goddamn thing.

He's overdoing it. Dude, completely. And it's kind of like you almost feel like saying, just take it easy, man. Take a rest. He gets two songs rest for sure where Keith sings. And at that point, that's all you can take of Keith. And Keith, you don't even know if he's going to make the chord.

He's croaking it out. You don't know if he's going to make the chord. Dude, he was sitting down for a while when I saw them in Atlanta last November. He just sat down on the chair. I'm like, listen, for a while when I saw them in Atlanta last November. He just sat down on the chair. I'm like, listen, dude, I get it. It's fine. But I see Mick Jagger. And to me, it's like, I look at pictures of my dad when he was 40. He looked like an old man, you know, sweatsuit, big glasses. That's just how it was back in the eighties. Now I see Mick at 80 and I'm 52. It's like, there is no way I'm ever going to stop doing what I'm doing. Really?

Why would I? If Mick can do it, I want to do it too. And stay in shape and be cool. Like you said, how much he has to do to get into that mindset, but he does it. Yeah. And to me, like, that's life. Like, I don't want to be this guy. Oh, he's 70 and I'm growing carrots now.

And if you want to do that, that's great. I don't want to fucking grow carrots. Yeah. I don't want to grow carrots, but I might want to do that that's great i don't want to fucking grow carrots yeah i don't want to grow carrots but i might want to not do anything there's some part of me that's sort of like how long do i have to keep doing shit but you can still do podcasts there we just say we won't do that it's not like i have to train to do stand-up but you know it is a matter of in in the same way it's a matter of relevance and you know whether or not you're still popular we can podcast for as long as we choose to do it but i for some reason, there's still part of my brain, even though I'm my own boss as well,

that's sort of like, you know, is there a way to enjoy life without doing this? Yeah. Yeah, well, but my thing, though, Mark, is how old were you when you first started doing stand-up? 21. All right, so you just told me you're 59. So you're looking almost 40 years.

Okay, I'm done with it. Now you, so you just told me you're 59, so you're looking almost 40 years. Okay, I'm done with it. Now you tell me after those three months or six months, it's going to creep back like, fuck man,

I want to go back out again. Yeah. I'll just go to the improv for one night. Sure. I'll take the book and recita. Yeah.

And I'll go to Seattle. Next thing you know, you're all fucking around again. That's right, but you don't want to be the guy that's sort of like, well, he's still doing it.

I see that as well. That's what I was saying about wrestling. People already say that about me. You got to have a thick skin to be in show business because just by the fact I exist, whenever I lose a match, it's the greatest match ever. Whenever I win it's Jericho holding down the young guys.

Which is so ridiculous because I was mentioning that to him today that it would not be a good win for someone else if you lost all the time you know i was the champion and won a bunch of matches and people were bagging on me for winning it's like i'm the champion how dare you win as the champion so that when someone beats you and becomes the champion it's a big deal also chris lost the title to that giant swing move which was i thought fantastic that like that like that's just like

a gimmick that that guy does I pointed it out to Mark the Italian guy yeah or he's Swiss but he's got an Italian name

yeah and Chris tapped out to it which was hilarious we have for years been trying to figure out a way to get out of that move because when he does it people react

the old tiny swing in a circle the old swing but then when he stops the people come down again so I've been working with him since WWE we always could never

figure out what are we gonna do and finally it's like this giant swing what fuck and then I was like I can

can I tap out so I actually had him do it where I was trying to see like when you're swinging can I move my hand around to tap it you were tapping the mat as you were moving

as I'm spinning around but what a great fucking way to go out you know that was amazing you also took that swing on the top of that cage which you're fucking nuts for anything I can as I'm spinning around. But what a great fucking way to go out. That was amazing. You also took that swing on the top of that cage, which you're fucking nuts for.

Like I would never have, you couldn't have paid me. I took that giant swing, what, 40 feet up on top of a cage. Oh man. And the only reason I did it is because Claudio, the guy we're talking about, is the strongest guy

and I knew there is no way in hell he's ever going to even have one wavering second of dropping me. But as soon as he started giving it to me and all I'm up there and all I see is people upside down, down this far, I took about six,

I'm done, I'm done, stop, stop, stop, stop. Now I watch it back on camera. I could have taken it 50 times, but when you're up there, it was terrifying. It was freaking me out, man. Oh, he's got this uncanny balance when he does it too,

but there's no way you could be in it that you would think, oh, he's not going to fall. And when you're in it, I'm just going to fall right off the edge, and I'm just freaking out. Stop, stop. Yeah. Would you have always thought that? Or if you were younger, do you think?

I just think just the situation that you're in being that high up, I don't care how old it is. It wasn't an age thing. It was just a freak out thing. How often do you feel like you might get hurt? I mean, it looks like it's kind of easy to get hurt. I mean, all it takes is one false move and you get hurt. So that can happen at any point in time.

But there's a few things that I'll see that I do that I'm a little bit nervous about. That was one of them. Getting thrown off the cage and the first one was one of them because it's a pretty far fall uh a couple things if you see the match i did with bandito there's a couple moves he did that i knew were gonna hurt a little bit nervous about but it's also kind of a little bit of a daredevil thing yeah i don't not want to do it because what it's a little bit scary that was what you said while we were watching it you're like there has

to be a certain level of some kind of masochism to this because like the there is and and it was in that four-way of all the matches we watched too that one and it's funny i was there and i've watched that pay-per-view since it wasn't until sitting there watching with him was that i realized of the matches on that pay-per-view that one was the most physically violent like there was hard-hitting yeah exactly and and there it got you know it was really at the heat point in the match and Mark was like there's just no way

these guys feel good after this oh yeah no I think a lot of it too is it's just almost like a body callus you just get used to it sure

you know and I used to wrestle four times a week yeah every week four times a week now it's once a month once every couple weeks

so it's almost a little bit harder to wrestle less when you're wrestling no I couldn't do four matches a week now it's once a month once every couple weeks so it's almost a little bit harder to wrestle less when you're wrestling now i couldn't do four matches a week schedule now nor would i ever want to but when you only wrestle once in a while you think oh it's probably a little bit of an easier schedule it probably hurts a little bit more because you're not as used to it you know right you don't have the kitchen hands i guess so right yeah exactly yeah yeah so but i mean have you gotten injured badly you know i've been actually really lucky the only injury i ever really had i had a bulging disc which is fine but i broke my arm in 94 uh i had a steel plate but i missed seven weeks and that's the only

injury i've ever had wait still in there still in there yeah i've never i've never missed a match due to injury and you were young that's 94 94 you know something you mentioned chris that uh you know a guy that mark knows well is mcfoley okay and we you know we used to work with him on the radio and we um we did some stuff with him and one of the crazy things about mick was you know the hardcore legend as he's called and he's in all these death matches and but really his biggest earning period of his career was as a a guy who pulled a sock out right in your mouth and what it was essentially uh uh leaning into comedy as a as a character and it was something i heard you say on your show once um i think you guys were reviewing like pile driver the album or something yeah and you were

like this is this this is part of why I got into wrestling. Big time. Was like that it's goofy and silly and you can't do it all the time and you can't just be a clown about it. Like bad comedy is bad comedy. Yes. And like we were talking about that before too

that if you watch some of this stuff when it's like, if it's acted badly or it just can get embarrassing. But I'm always curious where that comes from. some of this stuff when it's like if it's acted badly or it's just can get embarrassing but i'm always curious where that comes from does it come from like a promoter like is it a vince or is it the people on the staff writing saying we're going to lean into this being funny or is it actually just a performer who's turned it up it's the person like i said like i i grew up in the 80s

watching wrestling and wf had that campy side to the slammy awards and Vince McMahon singing, stand back and guys fighting back through catering, hit each other with giant salmon and punch bowl. Like I always love that side of wrestling and I still love it to this day. Now wrestling has kind of changed where it's much more of a hardcore five-star match. But yet, like I said, we did that song and dance routine, MJF and I, me and my shadow, Busby, Berkeley, like we were said, we did that song and dance routine, MJF and I, me and my shadow. It was Busby, Berkley. Sure. Like we were arguing, so we're going to meet for dinner,

and we're going to work this out, and then we'd go into a song and dance routine. Yeah. I fucking loved it. It actually even won some kind of award with the New York Times. Yeah, it was the New York Times, yeah. New York Times. People hated it.

Not all people, but the hardcore. They are killing wrestling. Dude, this is what wrestling had this element to it. When was a kid that got enthralled with it yeah now the difference is and this is something like you said there's nothing worse than bad comedy and mark knows this like there's nothing worse than bad improv yeah i did the groundlings for a year i learned don't try and be funny yeah if you try and be funny it it's never funny. The best way to do improv is to play it straight. Sure.

That's how all of my guys will tell you. Inner Circle guys, Jericho appreciates it. My rule is play it straight. Yeah. I don't care how either serious it is,

how outlandish, how goofy it is. If we play it straight, it always fucking works. Yeah. That's the way to do it. Were you doing the groundlings while you were wrestling?

I took a break from about 05 to 07. Okay. I studied acting. I studied, I did improv with, with the groundlings. Did you think, did you then, did you do that specifically? Like, so when you were back in wrestling, you were knowing that this is stuff you could. I didn't, I didn't know if I'd ever come back. Oh, really?

I was just really burned out in wrestling. I didn't know how much farther I could go. And you think about that 2005, I didn't become Chris Jericho until probably 2008. Like I'd done a lot of cool stuff. So how long had you been at it, 2005? 15 years. And I was just burned out. I was done.

That's interesting though. You were already a funny character. Like you were, I think the first, I was going to say, I think the first time I noticed you, and that's not true. I might've seen you at one of your first ECW matches in Queens. It was like 1996 or something. I was growing up in Queens. I might have even worked Mick Foley that night.

I think you did. It was his last show in ECW. Yes, it was. It was. It was my first, yeah. At the Rego Park Hall. And once again, he put me over. That's right.

I beat him as he's the guy leaving the big star. Yeah. So I'm the young guy, and no one thought's right. I beat him as he's the guy leaving the big star. Yeah. So I'm the young guy and no one thought I was going to beat him. But when I win and he leaves now, I got a little bit of steam. That's how it works. Right. And so you were baby face there.

And then you, you went to WCW as a baby face, fresh faced Lionheart, Chris Jericho. And it really started to turn with, uh, you did the losing street gimmick, which always can help you turn to a heel.

Right. And, and he, to turn with the losing street gimmick, which always can help you turn to a heel, right? Yeah, tantrums, yeah. And he turns heel and is going at this guy, Dean Malenko, who is, his gimmick is a wrestler's wrestler, and they would call him the man of a thousand holds. Yeah. And Chris comes out, he's the cocky heel, and he has a roll of paper with him. I remember watching this on TV as it was happening. He says, Dean Malenko, he may be the man of 1,000 holds, but I'm the man of what?

Was it 1,003? 1,004. 1,004. I know four more than he does, and now I'm going to read them to you. Rolls it out. This list rolls down to the ground, and he starts reading them out loud. This is terrible, the announcers. Let's go to break.

They go to break. Full commercial set. Back from break. He's still in the ring reading the list of holds. And every fifth or seventh hold was armbar. It was the same one. He's just repeating it. The funny thing for that was is that we went to commercial break.

We're in Chicago. So I'm reading my holds. We go to break. As soon as I know we're on break, I just start insulting Chicago sports teams. Yeah. So when they come back from break and it's like, you got 10 seconds,

the Blackhawks suck, the Chicago sucks, three, two, one, the Russian pile driver. So they're really booing. So it looks like for three minutes, he's been doing this for three fucking minutes. You know,

a little showbiz trick. That's funny. But that's, you know, I don't want to be presumptuous about this, but I do think that got you over

in a way that probably then got you hired by WWF when it was time for you to jump and like, that is the kind of, like,

so this idea that, and it goes back to something you said right when we started talking was that it's all about the character. The character, the character, the character. Well, another thing about wrestling too is it's really a lot of

similarities between uh wwe and snl silent live yeah that's true if you look at it lauren has created this entire pop culture phenomena that changed the course of history in a lot of ways vince did the same with the wwf but they're both based on talent and making stars. Then those stars become big stars and then they leave. And now he has to build new stars. So sometimes you get a shitty season of SNL because there's just nothing there. Same in WWE. Sometimes they're trying to build these guys.

Like this guy just doesn't have it. Then The Rock comes or Steve Austin comes or Adam Sandler comes out and suddenly you got a guy who's hot. Then the show is hot. Yeah. Right. And then the guy leaves. Brings a new life to it.

Yeah. So, but that's always the secret. Like you were saying, who's the next hot guy? And you never know the acclaimed. We never thought the acclaimed, well, we never, I'm not saying you didn't think it, but the fact that God is big, they're a tag team that does a little rap act and they come out, they're great. And they're so popular.

Yeah. You never would have guessed it if you just saw them two years ago. Right. Oh, they're, they're a decent little team. And never would have guessed it if you just saw them two years ago. Right. Oh, they're a decent little team. And now they're like one of the biggest acts on our show. Is there some sort of scouting apparatus to wrestling? I mean, like it seems like with show business, everyone kind of knows, can see people developing. Yes.

And there's, we call them indies, independent. Yeah. And pre-pandemic and then now post-pandemic, they're finally getting back to where you'll see a lot like that PWG. There's still dozens of great wrestlers that aren't signed to WWE or AEW. And so then you get the word out about them. Like, oh, the guy like Michael Oku, I worked or speedball, Mike Bailey, you hear about this guy. So there's all these names that you hear.

And then sooner or later, they'll get to the point. Same with like with me. Oh, who's this Lionheart Chris Jericho. He's really popular in Mexico. We'll keep an eye on him. Well, it's interesting. Cause like it,

it seems like there's a, a never ending appetite for it. Yeah. Yeah. In terms of like folding these guys into one of the, uh, uh, either of the big franchises,

but like if they can't cut it, they just won't cut it. That's right. You know what I mean? Right. They just go away. And that's exactly the truth. And you get that with any time.

I mean, do we see it with studios putting a guy in a leading role part? It just doesn't work. And you're gone right away. Bands, you know, bands, they just go through bands. If you don't get that hit right out of the gate, you can be done. Yeah. It's just, it rests and you get a little bit more time, but if you get put in that top position and you don't draw, people don't watch your matches.

TV ratings are so important. I read the minute-by-minute TV ratings every week. Of your show? Of my show to see how did I do, but how did this guy do? Who's drawing every week? Really? Yeah, and you can kind of see this pattern.

Whenever he's on, the ratings go up. Really? Swerve Strickland is one of those guys. He's not a ratings bonanza, but every time he's on, the ratings go up. Do you have a theory about that? Connection. That's right. It's just that guy, I would say, is his presence.

If you look at him on the screen, Jade Cargill is similar in that if you see her on your screen, you think, well, that's an interesting person. Yeah, I want to see what this person is doing. So that matters. And if you don't draw, my boss, Tony Khan, is a numbers fanatic. If you are put in a position and your ratings go down, you won't be put in that position anymore. So that's part of it is you have to connect. People have to watch you when you're on screen. If not, you won't be on screen in that position,

or maybe you won't be on the main show. You get put to the next show. So it's all kind of there's levels to that too. So what made you decide to start learning a little bit more about wrestling, Mark? Well, Brendan's sort of hopping on this idea that I want to sort of enjoy my life more. Yeah. And I don't have enough. Diversions to hobbies?

Yeah, hobbies, and I don't always know what's a good time what we were trying is i worked too much because we thought it would be like good podcast material if he got into something that he had no interest in right and it was like we started like trying to get him to watch like the marvel movies yeah into it yeah that was the thing and then the thing was like for me i didn't give a give a shit. So I was like, okay, then don't do it. I'm not going to like force you to do this. And it was literally at that full gear. Like I was just having a blast and I was like, Mark should be here. We should be doing this together. And I'm a lifelong fan, so I can actually bring some passion to it and convince him like, this is a good hang.

Like we can enjoy this, you know? But it's interesting too though because all the time you're doing glow yeah you didn't want to well i mean you know i took that you know i got that part and i and i and i knew what my position was and i and i thought that to some to some degree it would serve me better if i didn't gotcha you know that this guy didn't plan on being a wrestling director which he is kind of the story, yeah. Yeah, he saw himself as a director director. Yeah. And then, you know, sort of took it,

you know, he grew to love them and he grew to, you know, sort of get involved with it. But still, throughout that series, you don't get the feeling he knows about wrestling. You know, it's the other kid. It's Chris Lowell. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He seemed to know.

The rich kid, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was the fan. So it didn't compel me. And Brendan's been booking wrestlers on one show or another that we've had for years. I mean, we did bits with Mick Foley when we were on radio, when I was on radio and he was producing me on radio. And then I interviewed Colt Cabana years ago. I interviewed Punk.

I interviewed his wife. What's her name? AJ AJ yeah so I've talked to all of them but I don't think I really really got you know what it means to

to watch it or enjoy it until today oddly really? yeah because like you know he's real into it but you know

but maybe it's something to do with where I'm at in my life or whatever but I was just able to watch it today with him saying like it's about the maybe it's something to do with where I'm at in my life or whatever. But I was just able to watch it today with him saying it's about the story. It's about all these things. And I sensed it. I got it. When you come at it with that idea, it'll really open up to you.

It's like Walking Dead. It's not a show about zombies. It's a show about society, about relationships. Zombies are the background. Wrestling's almost the same. It's not about the body slam. yeah it's a show about society about relationships and sure zombies are the background wrestling's almost the same it's not about the body slam sure that's a part of it but it's the storyline that matters it's all that matters and it's also just not being condescending right so like that you know just like let it happen i mean what do you if you're gonna bring all that baggage to it like

this is stupid there's such a there's such a stigma about wrestling for an honor all that shit is fake every single movie no i get it but like it seems like that stigma is like not as prevalent anymore like it seems like you know there's been so much pushback yeah over the years yeah against people saying it's fake it's like of course it is but so what right right that was ultimately it it's it's a live stunt show it's a modern day Shakespearean play. Right. It really is.

And if you look at it that way, you can really appreciate it so much more. Well, it was great talking to you, man. Yeah, great talking to you, man. I'll see you tomorrow. I'm excited. Yeah, I'm excited to see what you think. Right after Chris Jericho came over, came into the garage, then Brendan was excited again and said, wait, there's more coming. And the CEO of All Elite Wrestling, Tony Khan, walks in.

Basically, what's happening in this conversation is Tony is going to explain to me his job, which is not unlike any show. He's the showrunner. He's the one who decides how it's all going to play out week to week, and there is continuity to all this. And also, as I mentioned before, Brendan is here as well. Brendan is in the room to give me some perspective. As a fan, I can hear him engaging with Tony as a guy who knows what's going on and then feel more of that excitement, get a little more of that contact buzz from Brendan's excitement about everything unfolding. So this is me and Tony and Brendan on the mics.

So where do you come from? I originally am from Champaign, Illinois Where the University of Illinois is That's where your family's from? Yeah, originally my parents met there My dad's from Lahore, Pakistan And my mom's originally from around Chicago And you're not unlike Brendan in that How old were you when you started to love wrestling?

Probably about seven years old. Seven. Same. Yeah? Yeah. And that's when it happened. Yes. But what do you do in school?

How do you manifest this? Well, I always wanted to write wrestling shows, and actually the show we do every Wednesday on TBS is called Dynamite, Wednesday Night Dynamite. Dynamite is a show that I started writing in notebooks and on the back of pieces of paper in middle school in 1995. Dynamite. Yeah, Dynamite.

And it was wrestling scripts. Yeah, wrestling scripts like match-ups every week and stories that go week to week. It was a weekly wrestling show called Dynamite. with the guys that you were watching on tv yeah the people at the time and now it's you know the biggest stars of today every wednesday on tbs so how'd you like what's your old man's in the auto parts business right yes sir but in a big way in a big way and so so you were expected to follow suit Not exactly. I don't think my dad ever really even wanted that because, uh, first of all, my dad is really a very, very lively person. He's just as active in the auto business as he was when I was a kid. He's in his seventies now,

and he's one of the healthiest, most vibrant people you'll ever see. And I don't think, uh, that's really ever what he wanted for me. I don't know. It's certainly not ever something he tried to force on me. And I think he wanted me to do what makes me happy. I'd like to think, yeah. You didn't get that pressure? Because a lot of times I've talked to people that come from immigrant parents primarily, and the pressure is relentless. I was under a lot of pressure, but not necessarily pressure to work in auto parts. But I think I was definitely under a lot of pressure to succeed in some meaningful way. Yeah.

But not necessarily do the same thing as my dad. Yeah. What were you expected to do? What did you think you were going to do? I really wanted to work in sports my whole life. And I've had this great opportunity for over a decade to do it now. My dad, you know, his dream was to buy a football team. And just like I think my dream was to launch a wrestling promotion.

And so I got to be a part of that. And for 11 seasons now, I've worked in the NFL and been working on football stats, which is something else I really love. Wait, so your dad owns a team? Yeah, my dad owns the Jacksonville Jaguars. You're doing that as well? Well, I do football statistics and put together scouting reports based on data and put together information on the draft and our games for the coach and for the general manager. I do that. Also, I'm the general manager and sporting director of Fulham Football Club in the Premier League. That's in the UK.

in the Premier League. That's in the UK. So he's literally got a team in Europe, a team in Jacksonville, Florida, and this National Wrestling Federation. So wait, so now is the wrestling like a hobby? No, not at all. It's a full-time thing.

It's like I juggle all this work, but I really love it. And I used to be in the NFL office like 80 hours a week before I started working in English football for Fulham, and then I was really splitting my time. And now I've got a great team I work with at Jaguars that really a lot of the scouting reports and data, they generate week to week. So I'm not having to do that every single week anymore. And I'm still working on the data, but I'm not in the office 80 hours a week in Jacksonville anymore because I'm on the road. We do 52 weeks a year wrestling. It's a never-ending tour. So I'm in different cities every week and it's great. I'm just working all the time and I love it. Do you have a life? No, not as much as I would like, but I love the stuff I do and it's fun. I'm very obsessed with

wrestling and football and that works good for what I do. Well, it seems like you've gone as far as you can go for someone obsessed with wrestling Well, it seems like you've gone as far as you can go for someone obsessed with wrestling and football. Yeah, I've gone far. You know, there's who knows. In the sense that like you can feed that obsession without necessarily playing or getting hurt. You can live in it. It is very sustainable, I think, what we have going on. And I love working in it every week. And during football season, it's pretty crazy because you have the games every weekend and then we have wrestling every week on TBS and TNT, but I love it. When did you start putting together the Wrestling Federation?

About four years ago, I started working on it. I started working on it about five years ago, and we launched actually four years ago this week. What made you think you could take it on? Well, it's interesting. I was at a party with the president of TBS and TNT at the time. For football? Well, no, it was actually, it's a great question because a lot of those events where you see those people, it wouldn't normally be at like a big football event. This wasn't. It was like a social thing out here in LA.

Yeah. And my friend Kevin at the time was running TBS and TNT and I saw Kevin. I knew him socially and he's a great guy. And at the time he was running the two networks. socially and he's a great guy and at the time he was running the two networks yeah and uh he started having a conversation with me and i mentioned wrestling tv rights and he said he was actually looking into that at the time and i mentioned you know it could be a great time for me to start a wrestling company and for you to carry it and that turned into a real conversation and then we had meetings and followed up on it. And then it ended up happening. So you judged interest by that?

Yeah. I kind of felt him out. I mean, what could you deliver at that point? You didn't have wrestlers. That's a great question. So there were a number of big stars just off the top of my head that were going to be free agents that next year. So I was able to build a great roster taking like Chris Jericho, who's a huge name that was going to be available as a free agent. And then a lot of the top young wrestlers. And there were a number of people competing for a company called Ring of Honor at the time. Now that's actually, I bought Ring of Honor pretty recently. What was that? It's a management company?

That was a wrestling company that was probably at the time, the number two company in the US. In terms of promoting? In terms of, yeah, in terms of attendance and pay-per-view buys and stuff. I think they were, at a time, they were a number two, but they never rose to the heights of AEW. And that's one of the reasons why I thought there was an opportunity for AEW to come in and be a strong challenger brand. And that's an expression that Kevin and the people at the time at TBS really taught me,

and we've used in our marketing. For example, like a challenger brand, a good example, you know, Pepsi is the new generation. Pepsi is a Challenger brand, like AEW. And when I launched this, I was like, okay, I'd like to be the Pepsi of pro wrestling. Would you be interested in that? Everyone said yes. Then they showed me a marketing deck about what it means to be a Challenger brand. And the best examples they gave me were, like, Burger King.

What's their marketing? A lot of it is like, hey, McDonald's sucks, guys. So that's when people ask why I go out and talk about the competition and wrestling. I mean, that's why, because it was handed down on high to me from the network. So in terms of business, I mean, you're doing well. Yeah, we're doing really well. And with WWE, do you, is there an active rivalry? Do you feel, yeah. Yeah, I think there is.

And week to week, it's very competitive, but we're a challenger brand. And I think nobody's come into the space and done as well as us taking on the industry leader for many, many years, for decades. But when does that war become part of the scripts? as us, taking on the industry leader for many, many years, for decades.

But when does that war become part of the scripts? Well, I mean, it's complete. I think it's to some extent, I do think like, at least on our end, we try to acknowledge it. That's like I said, the DNA of a challenger brand. You have to acknowledge that there's another big player in the industry, but that we're a major player too. So a challenger brand is not the industry leader, but it's also not a niche brand. But it seems like it's inevitable if you're going to honor the sport that you compete with them, like in an active way.

That would require a cooperation that them as the dominant brand are not going to want. Yeah, until they're hurting. Well, they're not. I don't think that's really the case. I think right now it's such a strong time for the wrestling business. So, you know, who knows? But it's something I would certainly be open to. And I think it's an interesting thing for the future

because it's not something that's ever really been done. They've kind of existed in their own space. We are working with a lot of wrestling promotions, and at times they've done stuff like that. But it would be a really interesting thing to see. Because so many of the wrestlers have stories in both places, in both spaces, and rivalries that are decades old, right? Yeah.

But I think it's like same as, for example, now I'll get killed for making this comparison. So, you know, what I usually say is Pepsi and Coke. And I think you wouldn't really see them working together. Just like I think it's like Marvel and DC. Like, you know, you don't see those superheroes really crossing over very much and haven't seen that. And probably I think there'd be a lot of jostling for who's going to be positioned stronger it would get very political and that's why typically these things exist in their own

universes and they try to build their own uh universe as they have as they call it or as I'd call it maybe a galaxy well somebody something Mark wouldn't know about though is that you did this with New Japan Pro Wrestling and you had a pay-per-view in June of last year that, well, for my money, was a great show just as a show. I know that it was difficult to put together just because of injuries and losing certain guys at certain times, but it does seem like it was a successful show to co-promote, and you got guys from AEW to be victorious over guys from New Japan and vice versa, and it did feel like a real kind of crossover, cooperative environment. And I know that it's different with them being an

international company. And, you know, they're also trying to get a foothold here in America. But it does show a kind of blueprint of how it can be done. Absolutely. That's a great point, Brendan. And that now is a great example of two companies collaborating and coming together and that it really can be done because we worked with New Japan Pro Wrestling. But again, that might be more akin to Pepsi and RC or Burger King and Subway coming together, Burger King and Arby's or something like that, because I think there's one player in the industry fighting against a lot of different players. We've came together, put a show together

that a lot of people thought was the best wrestling show of the entire year, and it's won a lot of the polls already for the 2022 show of the year was when AEW and New Japan did a show. What'll happen is eventually WWE will want to engage because they need the juice. I don't know if they need that. Not now. We'll see.

But if you keep doing this, eventually they'll be like, you know, well, fuck you. I hope. I hope, man. That would be really cool. But, you know, on the other hand, it's been all these years, and I don't know if you'll ever see, like, Pepsi and Coke doing anything together, not to keep making that comparison,

but it's like. Yeah, but the truth of the matter is, is that there are Pepsi people and there are Coke people. There's only one wrestling people. That's not true. No, there really are camps. It's really for real. Like tribal? Oh yeah, big time.

It's so tribal. It's funny you say that word too, because that's like the word they use to describe it. It's very intense rivalry and there are people who watch both, but there's a lot of people that are very loyal, like a sport where it's like a fan of the team. Well, what I would say it's for me, I was a, so I'm very much like Tony

in that I got into this as a kid. And so for me, it's not a tribal thing. I, God bless WWE. I grew up on it. I love it. It's been in my heart, but I don't watch it anymore. It's just not for me

and so like when you talk about is there coke and pepsi people like i would be like i'm a pepsi guy and it's like no no offense to coke people but i don't like the taste of it yeah right it would be the same thing for me with aew and wwe i don't dislike anybody for watching it it's wrestling but i'm not gonna watch it right but i do feel like there are a whole tribe of Coca-Cola drinkers who really hate those Pepsi people. Oh, sure. I mean, that's like there's going to be people at war until the end of time because they don't like the thing the other person likes. Yeah, or they have to not like it. Yeah, but I really love All Pro Wrestling, and no matter what company it is, we respect the people who come in.

And if people wear shirts from a different wrestling company you know that's cool i have no problem with that i'm i'm getting older in my years i don't have time to worry about like fights over wrestling yeah i just want to watch the show that i want which is why i i you know i could have introduced mark to wrestling in any way we could have went back and watched old rick flair matches or something but what i wanted him to watch was what I was engaged with now. Yeah. And I'm engaged

with this product because it's telling good stories. Thank you so much, Brendan. That's awesome, man. And when you conceived of the Dynamite stories, so you didn't have

any wrestlers in mind and now you have how many wrestlers at any given time? Oh, dozens of wrestlers across both shows. Dynamite, we have a second show now on TNT on Fridays called Rampage. So we have two shows, and we have dozens of wrestlers, men and women, now across both shows. The roster is much bigger now, in part because we have more programming than we started.

We started with two hours on TNT. Now we have two hours on TBS plus one hour on TNT. And we have quarterly special hours on TNT. Now we have two hours on TBS plus one hour on TNT. And we have quarterly specials on TNT. We had four big pay-per-views. And I'm trying not to oversaturate the pay-per-view market. We still have those big four pay-per-views. And we added a fifth, which is, like Brendan said, the partnership with New Japan, the Forbidden Door, we call it, where we go through the forbidden doors, the name of that show, and fight each other. And who does all the writing?

I put the matches together, and I try to work with all the different wrestlers to put their stories together. So I don't hand them scripts. I think that's one of the things that makes the two shows really different. There's writers, including people you know. A lot of people that are names in Hollywood

have written for WWE, and it's great. And I think, like Brendan said, it's just a different feel of show because you're more likely to get, like, handed a script. When Chris Jericho, who you just talked to earlier today, came to AEW, he told me, he was saying, this is really trippy because I haven't done an interview without a script in 20 years. And all I was giving him is the bullet points. It's like, look, here's who you're wrestling.

Here's the date and time. I think we know there's been an issue. There's a brawl here, but we're building to this big match. At the time, it was Chris versus Hangman Page that summer in 2019. And they were fighting to be the first ever AEW world champion and just kind of setting up the story of it. And Chris really did a lot of digging into his own psyche and use his own words, because I think one of the things you hear in wrestling interviews when they're completely scripted for the wrestler word for word is people using words, vocabulary that they would never use

themselves. Yeah. And they may not be very good actors. Well, yeah, sure. There's that, too. I think wrestlers have great acting chops, really. In a different style. It's like an improv style. Like curb your enthusiasm or a lot of things I think you know where there's an outline,

and then you're able to use your own words as opposed to somebody telling you. And so I would much rather give somebody an outline because I know that when I grew up, I feel like the wrestlers had more freedom to give their own interviews. And it was, you know, you heard people speaking in their own words more freely than today. And I believe in the late 90s into the early 2000s, they got into a habit of scripting. So I still put outlines together but i really want the wrestlers to feel good about what they're saying and believe what they're saying so that's

why we do it that way well when you did when you used to do these scripts for i'm gathering when you're saying scripts you mean for like e-feds right which i my friends and i it wasn't as much it was sort of yeah we would like kind of draft up the world of wrestlers. Sometimes we would change up what it was. Sometimes it could be anybody from any era or it would just be present day. But that was the idea. We would draft out and each build our own federation, our own company, and we would write shows. And mine was always Dynamite. And it was on different nights.

Now it's like in real life, it's Wednesday night Dynamite. And I came up with it when I was 12 years old because it rhymed with night. So it was a cool title. And, you know, never in my wildest dreams did I think it would be a real show that's on every week on TBS. But that's some reps. Like, it's funny because we had Chris in here talking about, you know, putting in his paying his dues and getting his reps in Japan, in Mexico, in, uh, you know, Northern territories and that. And, you know, there's no, there's no training for being a wrestling promoter other than just doing it. And so here you are in a world where there is

no, uh, secondary national wrestling promotion. You're creating it from scratch the only reps you have at your advantage are um you know things you wrote for fantasy purposes right which would be you know the only thing available to you at the time but that's no crazier i think than a lot of people in hollywood right who just wrote stuff in their own home and worked their way up and i so i think it's like to me it's a very different situation because uh in wrestling you know it's not just one person building their own act building their own repertoire and starting their own career you need to build it and really launch a lot of careers all at the same time and it's like starting a sporting league and like starting almost like a Broadway show where you have

a cast but also people fighting for the spots. So it's competitive for the spots, but it's also a sporting enterprise, like a team. So I think it's a combination of the two. So, I mean, it was really, like you said, it was the only reps available. But really, I didn't become more hands-on until really the second year. And it was really at the end of 2019, I decided to get much more involved. I was already kind of overseeing a creative process, but I really, uh, became a

lot more hands-on with it going into 2020. So it was Christmas, 2019. I was kicking myself because I really didn't like the way the show went the week before. And I really didn't like the rating and I felt like we could do better. And I just wanted to hold myself and everyone accountable. And so did you think it was that it needed there needed to be a consistency to it? There was continuity problems and there was a sense of things that it just needed to flow through one person and then that one person was going to be you because that's where the buck stopped. I do think there's some of that, but I do think I just felt like, yeah, I could put

together and it was it was going to be good for everybody because I thought think I just felt like, yeah, I could put together, and it was going to be good for everybody because I thought that I could put together a better flow and the shows going into 2020 could be stronger, sharper, and that building to the first Revolution pay-per-view, I really believed we had this great opportunity because we had great ideas and stories in place. Like you said, we were not far off at the end of 2019, and we had great interest,

but I felt I didn't like the direction we were heading at the end of 2019. And I felt like, look, 2020, this is a great opportunity. And to this day, the shows that we did at the start of 2020, people still talk about that as one of the strongest periods because I think we came back January 1st with a renewed sense of energy. I haven't had a Wednesday off since Christmas 2019.

But then the COVID hit. And then the COVID hit. And that was really interesting because fans at the time were saying, God, AEW just got all this momentum. Yeah. They had really at the start of 2020, they did their best shows. And the company's in such a hot period. What are they going to do?

It ended up becoming, you don't look like a Star Trek guy to me. No. Yeah, you're not a Star Trek guy. Don't stop the flow, though. Do you want me to give an – I've said this. Brendan, you look like more of a Star Trek guy to me. In a way, yeah. So, okay, good.

I am also, although I don't know if I look it. I might. But so there's like this analogy or comparison I've given before where like they didn't. There's a moment where in Star Trek, Captain Kirk's ship is really beat up, the Enterprise, and they're outgunned. And their ship is a lot more depleted than their opponent ship, Khan, in the Wrath of Khan in Star Trek 2. And so he steers the ship into the nebula where it's a much more uncertain thing. Nobody's viewing, nobody's scanning. None of it's going to work. It's just, it's the same level playing field

in a lot of ways. And that's what the pandemic was because we were not as big of a company at that point, but really the pandemic allowed us a level playing field to put on shows in a lockdown environment. So neither wrestling company really stopped. We kept doing shows and I made it completely voluntary for everybody to come in. So we only had the first week, maybe half the roster. And then by week three, we only had 29% of the wrestlers there. What I did is I set it up at

first for the first few months, our shows were different and I think they were better because there were, you know, as opposed to being in a completely empty environment. I took the wrestlers either that were not participating in matches and in a lot of cases out of work, independent wrestlers that couldn't get any work because there was no independent wrestling. Yeah. The only wrestling was TV wrestling. Yeah. The whole indie scene, all the live shows shut down. All there was was TV studio wrestling. Yeah. The whole indie scene, all the live shows shut down. All there was was TV studio wrestling. Right.

And the only three sports or sporting shows really that kept going were AEW, WWE, and UFC. But I think you guys probably were a boon to the respective networks that you were signed with

at that time who were hurting for any kind of production. There's no... Live production too. Right. And they've got... They know that even when stuff gets back to production unscripted it was going to take time to ramp up the content so

they had you guys going every week for what was a very dire time we never stopped and it was like to this day people all over the world especially in places where there were strong lockdowns yeah canada or even here in california but especially in canada and eng strong lockdowns, like Canada or even here in California, but especially in Canada and England, so many people come up to me all the time and say, and come up to the wrestlers all the time and they still talk about like, you got me through the pandemic. Like you got my family through the pandemic.

I notice your performers wear it as a badge of honor. Like I'm noticing it more and more on the air too, like that it'll come up in promos and around character that you have certain characters saying like, I was here during the pandemic. I was, I stay, I fought every week or whatever. And, and I, I don't take it lightly. Like, I think they, they really feel like, Hey, that was an important time for my growth as a, as a performer. It was also important time to, to, for an audience. Yeah. Like, you know,

if you were out doing anything, that's where I, that Instagram live stuff started to happen is that people were so needing to engage with something happening in the present that wasn't horrible. Yeah. And it made a big difference. Right. In their lives. Yeah. You know, just to, to sort of like, it, it was, it gave them hope somehow that, you know, it was going to be okay, that people were working, that, you know, somebody had the courage to sort of like, you know, just do it. Well, we tried to do it safe and we really did do it safe. We came back with a bubble. So we tested everybody coming into the show as far as all the wrestlers. And, you know, the couple times, very rarely, couple times where people did show up, we'd send them home and quarantine them,

like put them, you know know either in their car or but where they weren't going to expose anybody else and tested people before they came into the production bubble where we would shoot the shows but then uh when it was time to get fans back we were the first people to bring fans back safely because we were outdoors and my thought was like the drive-in movie theater was back sure and so i thought we could bring that to pro wrestling my first idea was like should we actually do a drive in show but then i realized we have the outdoor amphitheater we could just space it out and then that's really what became the standard for sports was the socially distanced show the outdoor show where people do 25 capacity and basically you your family or friends you come and you get the whole

section of seats is just you and there's nobody around you, anyone behind you or in front of you. Right. And that became the standard. I mean, literally that, you know, the Jaguars and the Chiefs were the only teams in the NFL that had that the first two weeks. Our team, the Jaguars, we really took that model from AEW and both in football with Jags and with AEW. We had zero known COVID transmissions from doing this because it was outdoors. You were in your own bubble, effectively. And so it really brought the energy and the fans back, and that was also really cool. So some of our best memories

and some of our most important memories were made there. Well, I have a couple nerdy questions for you. And Mark, you can follow along here, but I know you're not going to know what i'm exactly what i'm talking about but but uh what i have noticed lately is some real uh focus and cohesion of uh the kind of top line stories and they really kind of seem elegantly laid out and i wonder what you would attribute that to for yourself, if you agree or disagree. I agree. If you agree, then do you feel that since you're the guy at the helm of most of this,

is there something that you, like, I just feel like it's a creative question. How do you find your juices so that all of a sudden these things are popping as stories and feeling really coherent and focused? Well, I have an answer and sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words. There's no cameras these things are popping as stories and feeling really coherent and focused. Well, I have an answer, and sometimes a picture is worth a thousand words. There's no cameras in here, right? No. There's no cameras.

What I'd like to show you, I'll cover it up so you don't see anything for the future, but I'll show you what I've been doing since Full Gear a little differently because I think we were on a really strong run going into Full Gear, so I started doing something a little differently going in and coming out of Full Gear. run going into full gear. So I started doing something a little differently going in and coming out of full gear. And it's the same thing I was doing, but it's maybe a little more cohesive on a macro level. And so I can show you actually, because it's what I was doing before, but I've never put it all in one place. You know, the biggest thing before I go and pull out some of my notes to show you would be that we haven't had this stable of a roster. We were dealing with a major injury or crisis every other week through the summer.

And there was a period, the last time I was here for the LA Forum, in that week, the attrition of that week. Talk about unbelievable. I mean, in the span of a week, we had Brian Danielson, Adam Cole, and CM Punk all injured. MJF walked out of the show. All of these major incidents. And then through the summer, I was really proud of what we were able to do week to week with some uncertainty. And then Adam Cole came back but was injured again. CM Punk ended up coming back but was injured again.

Brian Danielson came back but has been a fixture in the show. And that's been huge to helping us build that consistency, having Brian Danielson there week to week. MJF coming back, obviously that's hugely important. But Chris Jericho, Jon Moxley, and so many people up and down the roster helped us keep that kind of consistency where we still did great numbers and were very competitive through the summer. And now we've had really a stable roster for the last several months. And I think that's really helped us. It's probably been the most stable run of TV and maybe the best run of TV since the original revolution started 2020.

That was probably the last time where I strapped down and said, like, I need to get organized and made a major change as big as the one I'll show you. So I don't. And if you the stuff you read one I'll show you. So, I don't, and if you, the stuff you read, I would appreciate it, Brian. I'm going to cover the future dates, but if you see just a bit of what's on here, so I had a process, I already had kind of a schedule of what I had

planned week to week in different stories for different wrestlers, different matches or segments, and at some point, like, I just kind of inverted it. I realized, like, I should tip this over. And instead of looking at the dates and building it out, I kind of flipped what the columns were and what the rows were and put the columns where the rows were.

And now I organize everything like this since full gear, and I feel like I'm more organized even though it's all the same information it's just looking at it differently and it really helps me so without giving anything away and it doesn't seem like you are here but what what just to kind of explain this it looks like the you're you're basically the the focus on this top column are your stars and the stories yeah right and so you're you're're able to, it's not just you're plugging in, here's what we're going to do this date, this date, this date. You're able to see the progression of the story on the chart. Yeah. So it's like a mini storyboard.

Yeah, it is. And I already was doing that and we already had that, but I kind of had it the other way. kind of had it the other way and like where uh it was looking at the shows and i had where the columns were now here were the different wrestlers and different stories right but for some reason i don't know why it shouldn't make that big of a difference flipping it like this it's the flow working down the page like this it looks a lot better it works a lot better right and it's basically the same thing i was doing but it just kind of, like I said, flipped the page around. And it's helped me be even more organized, I think, with our shows because we had a great year of shows. But really, like you said, I think the last few months it's been better than ever.

So I attribute that to the great performance of the wrestlers mostly and the fans and the great fans coming to the shows but also i think uh a lot of it in part has been we've been able to help uh the flow of the show in recent months by having a stable roster of wrestlers and that's probably most of all but then some small part i would attribute to being a little differently organized and having a a different look at how to flow the show that's it's very funny though for you know anybody who's listening to this, that it is really just a piece of paper. It's like basically how you would do it if you were a kid running a wrestling league with your friends.

You would write it down, and it still makes sense. Now, Mark, there's going to be his first live event tomorrow. Are you a personality on the air? Very rarely. And when I am, I'm more of a device. Because I am the president and the CEO. You're more that you're acknowledged by the talent and by the announcers. They'll say this match was made by Tony Khan, blah, blah, blah.

But, you know, it's not Vince McMahon who was a character on the show. None of that. We've done like 170 episodes of Dynamite and about 75 episodes of Rampage. And so across about 245 TV shows, I think I've shown up five times.

Yeah. And every time it was like to make a major announcement. Right. So when I do show up, it's usually a big thing. And so I try to keep it brief

and not be out there talking all day. And also it sets a good example because I'm also the timekeeper backstage and I hold people accountable to time as you are very familiar in the world of comedy. And people have to hit their times for the show to flow and everyone to, and really it's, to some extent, it's not only about respecting the company that's, that's, you know, putting

the show on and the producers and it's about the fans and them getting to see all the matches they want to see. And also for your fellow performers, your fellow comedians. Everyone's got to hit their times. And for wrestling, everyone's got to hit their times, what they get. But as the timekeeper, if I go out there and give myself a time, I usually try to keep it light to set a good example. Like, hey, I'm going to get in and get out so you can go out and focus on the wrestling. People don't want to see me out here all day. I'm going to make the announcement and go.

So what were you going to say about me tomorrow? Oh, well, I was going to say this is Mark's first event. And I guess, you know, my feeling is I just kind of want him to like, you know, take it all in. But I'm just interested for you as a guy who runs the company, who writes the show, is going to present this tomorrow at the LA Forum. Like for someone like Mark, that it's his first time, what do you want him to take away from this? Oh, I think you're going to have a great time. This is an awesome show to have it be your first show,

and I think you're going to see some great matches. The engagement with the fans, I think for somebody who professionally engages with live fans on a weekly basis like yourself and has been doing it for decades, and I've been watching you do it for decades, I know that you'll have a great appreciation for the connection that the wrestlers have with this audience. all the specific things they know, like the specific callbacks and moments like that. They it's amazing the recollection and the recall. And it's kind of to some extent working in English football, you know, when people go for the first time, they don't necessarily understand it and they don't necessarily even know the chance the fans are doing or the connection the fans in England have with the

football matches, but like you can say, wow, these people are so into it and connect with it. And then it makes you want to learn and become a part of it. And I do think that's what we have with our audience. When we were watching it on TV, like the both of us, we started laughing anytime there's like, you know, something that was deliberately done to like pop the crowd or get a big reaction. And then there's just reaction shots of fans. And I, you know, I'm a wrestling fan for 35 years and I'm like,

I still love that. I still love when you see somebody just react genuinely to it. And on a macro level, when you see the whole place come unglued for a moment, I mean, there's nothing better. Yep. All right, great.

Well, I'm looking forward to it. It's good talking to you, man. You too. Thanks for having me in your home. Thanks for coming. Thanks, man. I can I'm looking forward to it. It's good talking to you, man. You too. Thanks for having me in your home. You bet. Thanks for coming.

Thanks, man. I can't wait to see you tomorrow. Okay. The next day we went to the AEW Dynamite Show in Los Angeles. And while we were backstage, we caught up with our old friend Colt Cabana. Colt was a guest back on episode 334 and he was also on my IFC show Marin. Now he works for AEW and we had this conversation in catering.

You good? Check, check. Cool. You talk. Hey man, one, two, one, two. Colt Cabana. Hey, Colt Cabana. Unreal. I mean, jeez, how long has it been since I talked to you? This is like the update. This is what everybody wanted. Yeah. I mean, it's been years. When did I talk to Colt, man? 2012? 2013? If I talk to Colt, man?

2012? 2013? If I was to guess, it was 2013. Yeah. We're keeping the streak alive of never being to the garage because it was in an Evanston hotel. That's right, dude, when I was playing that little theater with the main stage. Main stage, which

I don't think is a theater anymore. When you did Marin the show, you were in the fake garage, right? Fake garage. Well, what are you going to do? But the point is, the last time I talked to you, you were kind of like a little star of this groovy, hip, indie wrestling network. And it's wild that you're here. This is the baby.

Well, it's the baby, but this is the big time. Yeah, but it was from the scene of my group of guys. Now, it wasn't necessarily me because it was the Young Bucks and Kenny Omega, essentially, that kind of got with Tony. But the Young Bucks wrote a book, and in their book, they said they took the blueprints of Cole Cabana of selling t-shirts of one-on-one. And then they... I remember I thought I was doing good.

Yeah. And then I watched the Young Bucks get so big and I watched their merch line. Literally, like 700 people around a building just for merch. Right. And so then it became this thing

and now it's this thing. And luckily, I'm along for the ride. Well, yeah. I mean, you got in under the wire there, huh? I really did. Especially at my age, as my body's falling apart i told you that yeah but what happened like uh so how did

it happen how'd you get the gig i mean i'm just part of the community like i'm part of the the cult like this is like the opposite of what the other wrestling you know what i'm saying like this is this was the young hungry guys the that's now it's counterculture of counterculture. So that's interesting. So this is all the guys that you were wrestling with on the Indians. In front of 100 people, 200 people, sometimes 10,000 in Japan. They wouldn't let us in America. Right.

And so for years we were saying, why won't you look at us and think that we're good? Yeah. Anybody. Right. And Tony Khan was able to do that.'re good? Yeah. Anybody. Right. And Tony Khan, like, wasn't able to do that. And now there's another Jew. Yes.

Well, I feel bad. Like, Max is such a star now, MJF. I'm like the sad, older Jew now. Well, I mean, but it's good that we're represented. There's a new upstart Jew and a sad, older Jew. That's right. Yeah, exactly. It is fun to represent

the chosen people. Sure, man. Of course. I'm happy for you. Well, I'm happy for you. First of all, I love that you got thrown into wrestling.

I did, dude. And when I heard you talking to Kia and to Chavo, and I'm like, oh, he gets it now. He's been doing the wrestling show. But I'm like, oh, he gets it now. He's been doing the wrestling show.

But I didn't fully get it until yesterday because he sat down with me as a fan, a lifelong fan of pro wrestling and we sat down and watched some of these matches.

I never did that with Glo. I never felt the pressure to because I wasn't really supposed to know about wrestling. But just to sort of see how it all worked in real time, I've never been

to one of these, but we watched them and I was sort of like, oh, okay, I get it. It kind of, it all locked together. I understand how you can be emotionally

attached to wrestling. And you appreciate the performance. That's right. You have to. Yeah, it's real show business. Especially as a performer. That's right.

It's real show business. Yeah, and so. That's right. It's real show business. Yeah. And so you're going to watch it in person tonight. Yeah. Which I think you'll get a whole new, so I can't wait to hear the after part of this. Yeah. To be up front and really watch the people as they're sweating and watch how they direct the crowd in the ring.

Yeah. You'll get a whole new appreciation, which makes me happy. Do we have good seats? We better have good seats. If you don't, I can... I know a guy. We might text you. Please do.

Thanks, buddy. Hey, congratulations on all your successes. Thanks, buddy. You too. It's the best. It's the best. We found out some behind-the-scenes secrets about how AEW operates. For example, sometimes a referee is not just a referee.

We met Bryce Remsburg backstage, and on camera he's a ref, but his work doesn't end there. Bryce is, what would you say your title is while you're here? Are you one of the senior officials? Oh, one of the more senior officials, one of the top six we have. So what you saw Bryce do was he refereed the steel cage match with Jungle Boy and Lucha Oh, that's true. That's a true fact. We dove off the cage and shattered his hip.

That's right. And Bryce, I mean, we made note while we were watching it. You were like, wow, this guy's really reacting to everything, even though he's not allowed to do anything. It's a cage match. I'm the voice of the audience. If someone's jumping off a cage in front of me, I feel compelled to react, I guess. Right, but I mean, you don't

have to stop anything. No, no, no, no, no, no. They sign up for this. Who would want that, right? Who wants to see me stop this? Let them go. Yeah, yeah. I'm also the travel manager for AEW, which is a harder job, which involves higher numbers than 10 or 20. What does that mean?

Making sure everyone gets here on time, booking hotels, booking flights, shuttles, car service, et cetera, all that. You got to do all that shit and get in the ring? Get in the ring. Is the payoff to get in the ring? Oh, yeah, absolutely. 100%. That's what I want to do.

You're a wrestler. I was a referee on the independ? Oh, yeah, absolutely, 100%. That's what I want to do. You're a wrestler. I was a referee on the independents for 17 years, and this started. So if I also have to talk to some hotels on the phone and able to get in there and do that, that scratches the edge. Wait, so you arrange travel for all 50 of these guys? 150 is our number, yeah. 150? About 90 wrestlers, 60 staff, a referee, social media, medical, security, all that. That's all you?

I have a team, but I'm the manager, yeah. And you do the reffing. And Tony's car service and Tony's planes and everything, yep. But are you sad you're not wrestling? No. No, I'm fragile emotionally and physically, Mark. I don't want to do any of that. But you used to?

I have a proxy. No, I refereed on small stuff. Oh, you ref. It's kind of like stand-up, I'd imagine. You work through the smaller stuff and now you get to do the big-time stuff, but I don't want to get hurt. You're always just a ref? Yes, sir. I'm short. I make guys look tall.

I'm 5'5", so if I stand next to Darby or Jungle Boy, they look like giants. That's my job. These guys don't travel together, though. No. They all fly from wherever they live at home and they come to wherever we are. Yeah. Sometimes L.A. easy.

Next week, Fresno. Yeah. Not as easy, but we get there. Yeah. Now, what are you doing tonight? I am going to referee Jungle Boy and Hook's tag team match. And the aforementioned Darby Allin is wrestling on Rampage, I believe, later tonight. So I'll be in there.

I'll be in there. Two matches? Where are you going to be? I'll be wrestling. In the main event? You'll be wrestling with your emotions. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know where we're sitting, but I'll be here there. I'll be in there. Where are you going to be? I'll be wrestling. In the main event? You'll be wrestling with your emotions? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know where we're sitting, but I'll be here.

All right. All right. What a time to be alive. Yes. Do you find a great crossover from wrestling psyche and self-doubt and stand-up comedians, even when you get to the highest point of everything? I don't know. Just from talking to these guys, I don't know that many wrestlers.

But it seems like some of the dues-paying process is similar. Sure. In terms of venue size and sort of getting your act together. You feel like you earned it. You feel like you earned it, but also you learn how to do it, you know, in smaller rooms and in smaller crowds. And after talking to Chris Jericho, just learning how to work off the crowd and how that sort of feeds what you're doing. So I think more of a similarity in that,

knowing that this is all show business and the dues process is very similar. It's a lot less physical to be a comic. Sure, sure. But the sleep, crummy hotels and flight delays, and that's part of the gig. All that's part of it, yeah. But we are kind of,

these guys are kind of solo operators as well, but ultimately the show is with other people, whereas that's not the case. I'm so jealous of you. You just need a mic stand and a stool and a bottle of water and we have this whole production with the ring. Did you get in the ring? Did you get in the ring?

I didn't get in the ring, but some guys these days are doing pretty big productions. Yeah? Stand-ups. Oh, yeah, sure. Good for them. Yeah.

Kevin Hart, that's a big operation. Good for him. Yeah. Another short guy. Yeah. Good talking to you. Good talking to you. Thank you, sir.

So the day after the show, Brendan came over to the garage and we got on the mics to talk about the whole experience. You'll hear that now along with our talks with wrestlers MJF and Eddie Kingston. You know, to be honest with you, the whole experience backstage, watching the stuff first and then being there at the show i mean i totally get it and i totally uh was invested in it um even when we watched the stuff in the living room like just you telling me the background of the people and

something quick for me and i think did we talk about it of the people and something quick for me and i think did we talk about it on the mics i something quick for me in that i can understand not unlike a musical like with my weird thing about musicals is that when you see a lot of people executing something that they're doing properly it's moving, yeah. So even when we were watching it in the living room, I sort of got the beats. And when you explain the structure of a match, I got that. But just the fact that, you know, like,

oh, he made it. You know, he landed on the thing. You know, there's something exciting about that. But watching it live, I felt the same kind of emotions I feel that are not really explained when an arc sort of worked. Like, they have a build to it, right? So, when they're doing the finale of moves, you know, I could feel like, you know, almost

tear up. Yeah. I mean, like, and I also noticed when we were backstage that the thing that struck me, even talking to the wrestlers, is that they're, like, I'm intimidated by, you know, athleticism, by that competitive nature of sports.

I wouldn't really know how to be in a locker room. Right, it's like your old joke about how if you see a teenager walking with a varsity jacket on one side of the street, you're like, cool. But yeah, but there's that. But also just it's so not my world. Yeah.

You know, I don't even understand, you know, why it's important in the sense that like I get they're going to go win and there's, you know, the goal is the sport. And these guys are in top shape to do a sport. But these guys, you know, they're big guys, and I'm sure they have sports in their past, some of them, but they're very aware that they're part of show business. Yes. You know, you're not going to have that vibe in a football locker room, like, you know, we're just putting on a show.

Right, right. You know, like these guys are very much we're putting on a show. They're not backstage psyching each other out. Right. You know, it's just like a fucking circus back there. Well, we should tell people how we saw all of this, how it kind of developed for us as witnesses to it. When we showed up to the arena, the first thing we got to see, we were in the bowl of the arena, the forum. Yeah.

And it was pre-show. It was about three hours before they opened the doors or before the show started. Yeah. And it was, you know, pre-show. It was about three hours before they opened the doors or before the show started. Yeah. And the wrestlers, a lot of them, were in the ring talking through

what their match was going to be that night. Specifically that closer. It looked like that was what we were going, that was what was happening when we were, got there.

They had the ladder in there. That's right. And there was a lot of discussion. And so we watched that for a while. We watched, you know, just kind of what they were setting up. Then we went backstage to the forum club to have, where there was a kind of sitting area. Right. So that we could sit and do some of the interviews.

And that was with Max MJF, who is the champion. And we knew he was going to come in and do basically a gimmick interview in character it's funny though he's talking normal yeah and and uh and i'm like so this is going to stop right when we go on he's like oh yeah i'm going to be the biggest douchebag jew from long island that you ever met yeah right the worst jewish person from long island now hold on a second i'm salt of the earth you don't get to say that about well i mean i just the fans can say that you don't get to say that yeah but i mean, I mean, I just say. The fans can say that. You don't get to say that. Yeah, but I mean, aren't you helping Jews? I'd like to think so.

Yeah. You know, when you think about Jewish people, normally they're very schleppy, nerdy looking, kind of like you. Yeah. But, you know, I'm trying to break the mold. Wait, wait, wait. Back up. Back up.

Back up. I think that I'm half nerdy, half stocky. Like a hybrid Jew. That's right. Hybrid Jew. Not full nebbish. Not full nebbish. You're not like all the way to the right athletic, like Gold Jew? That's right. Hybrid Jew. Not full nebbish. Not full nebbish. You're not like all the way to the right

athletic like Goldberg. That's right. But you're not all the way to the left Don Rickles. Well, I'm not a math Jew. I'm in the middle. Let me tell you something. I'm definitely not a math Jew. Besides counting my money. But of course. Now, how do Jews respond

to you? Jews love me. I'm the mensch of the cinch. You're kidding me i'm over as i'm over his fuck with the how about israelis do israelis like you israelis yeah dude if you're a jew you you love mjf because if you think about it i'm really the first prolific world champion that just so happens to be jewish yeah in the history of the business that is good at talking and wrestling yeah love bill goldberg to death but you put a mic in front of his mouth he kind of has a you know a bit of a panic attack does uh now how many jews have the is there a history of jews in wrestling not really uh there's not a lot of us as you would imagine most of us are known for being dentists doctors lawyers there's been

some stand-up comedians that's right but there's been a few sports jews no for sure actually my great great uncle yeah any freedman yeah is in the nfl hall of fame he was a quarterback was he you know i know there were jew boxers uh chew bakas jew box i'm just fucking with you yes there were definitely jewish boxers for sure was this the dream pro wrestling yes from the jump my two biggest things i wanted to do since i was a child was professional wrestling and then parlay that into acting. But when did you start watching wrestling? I started watching wrestling probably when I was six. And I remember what had happened was my father took me to my uncle's house and there was just a party going on on a Friday.

And SmackDown was playing at the time, WWE SmackDown. And I remember just seeing these gigantic men and I was just so enamored by it. These dudes just beating the shit out of each other. And I remember I just grabbed my dad. I was like, take me to Hollywood video. So now if anyone's listening and you don't know what Hollywood video is, I'm shocked somebody's listening that's younger than me. I was born in 96, but yes, now Hollywood videos don't really exist anymore. But so he took me to Hollywood video. I grabbed one of the DVD box sets and there was a guy on the cover that looked like a zombie.

Yeah. And I watched it and that guy turned out to be the undertaker. Right. And my first match I ever watched in full was a hell in a cell match. Yeah. Now, I don't know if you've ever seen this March, Matt. Yeah. But, uh, it's, it was intense.

Mick Foley got thrown from the top of the cell to the floor. What did him in? Um, I mean, I think a lot of things did that guy in. He's definitely, he's wrote some great stuff. He's a great author. Yeah. But his brain is mush. We talked to him a couple times.

Yeah. He's just beat up physically. Oh, for sure. Beat up physically, mentally, emotionally. Hot daughter, though. I'll give him that. Noel's hot. But aren't you concerned that you're going to get beat up physically, mentally, emotionally?

Mark. What? Please. Listen to me. Let me explain something to you. Yeah, emotionally. Mark. What? Please. Listen to me. Let me explain something to you. All right. I don't wrestle often. Yeah.

I'm what they call a special attraction. Kind of like Andre the Giant. Okay. Just not necessarily as tall. Yeah. I think he was a Jew, wasn't he? Andre? Definitely not.

Definitely French. Okay. Not Jewish. All right. But we can forget about that. So you're not concerned about your well-being? I'm really not. I wrestle very rarely.

I get paid very well. Yeah. Because when I do wrestle, people really tune in because I'm such a hot commodity and I rarely wrestle. I mainly, if I'm being honest with myself, I run my mouth a little bit. Right. That's what I'm known for. But not wrestling?

I mean, you wrestle. I mean. I'm very good. I'm the world champion. Of course, I'm good at professional wrestling. How do you do that by not wrestling often? Well, now I have the title. So I don't have to defend the belt unless somebody becomes number one contender.

Is it my understanding that guys like you eventually get schooled? What are you talking about? Me? Yeah. How could I possibly be schooled? I'm the smartest man in professional wrestling. But someone's going to beat you, right? Mark, that's impossible.

All right. You sound very foolish right now. No, I apologize. Maybe I'm just I don't know enough. You're a little green around the ears when it comes to professional wrestling. That's fine. But what guys like me are known for is we win the world title and people chase us forever in a day and then

we retire and we retire undefeated. Yeah, that's it? I mean, that's pretty much a tale as old as time. Bad guy not getting his comeuppance. What about the acting future? Is that going to happen? So actually, I had just booked a role and just finished rapping with a movie called Iron Claw. Is it a wrestling movie?

It is. It's about the Von Eriks. It was me and Zac Efron and Colt McAllister and Jeremy Allen White. Did you play a wrestler? I did, shockingly. Did you play a douchebag? So you would call the guy that I played a douchebag. His name was Lance Von Erick.

Yeah. And he may or may not have held up the promoter for money. Who's to say? Oh, this is like old-timey wrestling? Oh, yeah. It's a true story? This is back in the day. This is retro wrestling in Texas.

It's based on a true story. Did you do a Texan accent? No, absolutely not. All right. No, I don't mess around with it. I don't want to sound dumb. Personally. I don't know if you're from the South. I apologize that you're dumb, but I don't like sounding Southern. You grew up on Long Island? Of course I did. It's the most magical place in the world.

I grew up in Plainview, and now I own an apartment in the Golden Coast over at Glen Cove. Oh, is that nice? Are you kidding me? I had cousins in Hewlett. Oh, I like that. Okay. So you don't come from horrible stock. No, I come from Jew stock. Jersey City Jews.

Maybe we don't talk about that. Maybe we won't talk about that. They moved to where you came from. Exactly. Exactly. They want their life to get better. Was your dad a doctor? Did you grow up with a Porsche? My first car was a Camaro, not a Porsche. I'm actually about to get a Porsche in February. Yeah, it's a

GTS Tycon a real neon green what you ordered it. Of course it you ordered the neon green neon green Yeah, yeah, yeah, so a Tycon it's there. It's their only electric vehicle. Oh, you got an electric bus. I did What? What? It'll be fine. I think it'll be fine. I mean, you just seem like a gas guy. That's the thing, is a lot of people would think that. But I'm very smart with my money. And gas prices these days, as you would know

as an LA boy, through the roof. Terrible. Terrible. Horrible. First car was a Camaro, though, huh? First car was a Camaro. So what kind of business was your old man in? So my father made paleo bagels. Really? He works for me now. Yeah.

He works for you making bagels? No, now he's done with the bagels. He's sold the business. Yeah. God bless him. What do you mean paleo bagels? They're called pagels. That was his big idea?

That was his big thing and he made a decent chunk of change off of that. Oh yeah. Jewish people love their bagels And Long Island Jews Love their diets So you mix those two things together We're talking a lot of money So how do you make a paleo bagel?

So we found out About this stuff called Cassava flour Oh sure yeah yeah yeah And he would use that He would utilize that To make the bagels And now is it a kind of bagel

Where you bit into it And you're like Not great but it's paleo Let me tell you I'm about to shock you Alright Just as good as a regular bagel And that's coming from

A Long Island Jew. Really? They did? He boil it in the water and bake it? He figured it out. I don't know how he did it. Guy's a mad scientist when it comes to Babels. So what's he do for you?

So now he's just managing my money. Oh, really? 100%. You trust him? Not really, but somebody's got to give that schmuck a job, you know? And then my mom, she's in the steel industry. Yeah? Yeah.

She works for a company called bns aircraft she she co-owns the company with my uncle alan weissman yeah so yeah if you ever need steel metal was that it was that trump's guy who just got put in jail i doubt it a weissel weisselberg what do i know another yeah another long-nosed jewish guy so now do you find any actual anti-Semitism coming at you? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I've had death threats. I've had Nazi emblems keyed into my car.

Really? When I was on the Indies, you would hear kike a lot more often than I've heard it here. But I think that's only because the arenas are so loud. If there is someone screaming kike, I just can't hear it. Right. Because there's so many people booing me because they have bad taste, Mark. Yeah. Well, that's kind of interesting, right? Did you ever find it menacing or you still thought it was all part of the gimmick quite frankly so i think the in the underbelly of

society and i think you would agree with this anti-semitism has always been rampant of course that's why we're kind of always like oh shit you got the cough gotta be the jews you know what i mean like jewish people is always the scapegoat. So I think this Kanye thing kind of unearthed it all over again. And I found that really interesting to see how many people were in the replies, like, you know, he's not wrong. And you're just reading it.

And at first you're just baffled by the stupidity. But then you have to remind yourself, no, antisemitism is rampant, but it's not as fun to talk about as say other ethnicities going through it, for whatever reason. Well, that's because most people don't know Jews. Yeah.

I mean, like, you know, other ethnicities are more represented in culture. I'd say so. You've got to go find a Jew. Yeah. We're hiding. Yeah. We're hiding writing. We're writing for the anti-Semites is what we're doing.

But I, like, in comedy, though, I go out of my way now i like to really kind of uh make a big deal out of the jew thing i love it annoy whatever people might be anti-semitic i like to get people to just get to a point where they're like we get it jew yeah you know what i think i think we're gonna get along great sure that's what i love to do that's actually exactly what i love to do but what are you gonna do tonight this is my first live wrestling show oh my god are you gonna i'm so sorry. You're not wrestling. You're going to have to deal with everybody else except me.

Yeah. No, I'm just going to go out there and talk and be the biggest star in the entire show like I am every week. Sure. That's why I get paid by seven figures. You're the guy. You're fucking kidding me, Mark. Yeah.

Don't be stupid. So I'm going to go out there. Yeah. Entertain the crowd like nobody else's business. Yeah. I know that there are a bunch of highfalutin people here in LA. Are there? Who's coming?

They've got a lot of interesting people around here, apparently. People like you, Ken Jeong, Freddie Prince Jr., Macaulay Culkin, Paul Walter Hauser. Those are a couple of people that I know that are here. Paul's going to be here? Paul's a great guy. He's a good guy. Paul's a great guy. He just texted me the other day.

Paul's a huge MJF fan. Who the fuck is it, Mark? Me. I'm just learning. you are trying to get in yeah yeah trying to get into it I'm not too late am I do I have to be seven you're never too late okay and if anybody tells you that you have to be young to enjoy this I think it's silly and and I'm now I'm gonna get real serious with you on this all right I think now more than ever professional wrestling is this incredible thing because it's not only is it this crazy form of athleticism but it's also in a sense as you're you're seeing us where we are we are performing this sport with no net yeah and there's no backup plan and there's no way to mess up whereas if i sit down and i go to see a stand- comic and there's shit in the bed, they can

maybe figure out a way to get around it. And it's probably not being recorded live for the world to see while it's happening. Right. But we're alive every single week. We go without a net sometimes. And yeah, but I mean, but I guess when we fuck up, not the whole world doesn't see it. Right now. So the risk is not you're gonna

drop a guy oh yeah the risk isn't that you're gonna be a paraplegic exactly yeah but i mean when you do this uh when you do the the matches i mean you got bits you do right well i mean what do you call them i mean i'll bite people from now and then but if only when you chart it out you know what you're gonna open with mostly like Like as a comic, you know. Personally. Yeah. I'm a shoot from the hip type of guy. Oh, really? I say what I'm feeling.

I feel what I'm saying. But I mean like with moves, like with actual wrestling. With the moves when I'm in there, you know, I have to study my opponents, study their movement, figure out what openings I have. Yeah. Is their arm hurt? Is their fucking finger hurt? Is their knee hurt?

Yeah. And that's where you... Then you got to go for it. Do you ever use, know weaponry so you're not you're not going to tell anybody that's right i'm not all right thank god so sometimes yeah if i'm a little worried yeah i have a ring that i put in my trunks yeah and i put it on my pinky yeah and i punch the guy out with it when the ref's not looking all right and it works every time. Yeah, yeah. Every time. So you cheat. What? I mean, is that part of it? What are you talking about?

I think I slightly bend the rules. All right. To my advantage. Yeah, right. You have to. You have to. Yeah. I'm not trying to get hurt.

How was your bar mitzvah? Was it good? Oh, maximania? Are you kidding me? It was fantastic. Yeah? Yeah. We had dancing luchador females.

Their ta-tas were out. It was all kosher, though. That was your bar mitzvah party? Oh, yeah. Wrestling theme? Wrestling theme. That's hilarious. Now, did you do the full thing Friday and Saturday?

No, no, no. One day gimmick. Right in the morning, party in the evening. That was it? Yeah. Did the Haftor and you're out? Get in, get out. Let's get to the party.

How'd you do? Make some money? So, oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, get out. Let's get to the party. Make some money? So, oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know how Jewish grandparents and cousins are. They were great. They treated me well that night for sure.

That's good. Brothers and sisters? I have two older siblings. Yes. And are they, do they judge you? Are they proud of you? They're definitely, I think they're definitely proud of the fact, I think they knew I was going to make something of myself to this degree.

I don't think any of them could have guessed it. Sure. Are they doctors or lawyers or anything? So Carly, my, the middle sister, she's in like business and finance. Yeah.

And then Alex is actually in fashion. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Like as a designer or just designer. Yeah. Oh really?

Yeah. Does she done any trunks for you or anything? No, no, no. I won't let her anywhere near my shit. She's horrible at her job, but she's trying. She's trying her best.

God bless her. How are you going to get the Nazis not to key your green Porsche? So the good news is now I get flown out and I have a driver. So I never drive my own car when we're doing these. We're going to different arenas in different states every week. But back on the island, you'll drive it back to the garage. Back on the island, yeah. I'll drive my car.

But everybody loves me in Long Island. I'm a welcome to you. Are you a hero? One thousand percent. You know, I get booed everywhere else because everybody else has bad taste. Yeah. We come to Long Island. Everybody in Long Island knows the deal.

They know I'm the best thing since sliced bread. So you're just like Billy Joel. I guess so. Yeah. I'd say much more attractive than Bill, but I would hope so at this point. Yeah. Right. Give it time. Yeah. Well, yeah. Shit. It's more attractive than Bill. I would hope so at this point. Yeah, right? Give it time.

Yeah, well, yeah, shit. It's a good point. Time gets us all. All right, so tonight you're just going to get up there and start some shit? Maybe. We'll see how I'm feeling. It was good talking to you. I know it was, Mark.

All right. And we talked to Eddie Kingston. Yeah, Eddie, we talked to him specifically because I had read a piece that he had put together for the website The Players Tribune, a piece largely about his mental health issues. Right. But in the piece, he kind of outlined his trajectory as a wrestler. And I remember reading it months ago when it came out and thinking, like, wow, there's so many parallels here to, you know, people we've had on this show talking about struggling with comedy. Yeah. Specifically, Mark. Like, you know, there were you talking about those hell gigs where there's nobody in the crowd and we've discussed that with wrestlers before i mean that that was you know we knew that that

was a similarity but i think what i didn't what i had to put together that not unlike the experience of as a fan like you or somebody watching is that this gives these guys, you know, who are probably not emotionally that healthy, you know, a very specific context to have extreme emotions. Yes. Of all kinds. Right. You know, in character and also physicality. Right. You know, they make these decisions. So not unlike a fan who's experiencing a wave of emotions and, you know, personality, identification, transference, you know, hero worship, all that stuff, or having the arc of an emotional experience to any match. These guys, you know, have this controlled performative way to sort of really get the

shit out. Yes. You know how to handle a mic? I try. Yeah, hold up. Sometimes they trust us, sometimes they don't. Yeah, there you go. Especially when I want to curse on live TV, which is not a good thing.

Yeah, sometimes. I use curses as adjectives or whatever. I don't know. Yeah, I spent a lot of time in New York. You already know how to. You speak the language. You already know. Yeah.

Well, I just wanted to say, when they came to us about doing this with AEW and working with our show, they gave us a whole list of people to do stuff with. And I said, no, actually, I want Eddie Kingston. That's the guy who matches up the closest with what we do on this show. No, not MJF, our world champion he just came in so i mean he was gonna bigfoot it no matter what i guess he's a real piece of shit yeah i'm just gonna put that out there i don't know why he's the champ but he he'll hear this anyway and he'll cry about it to tony then i'll get an email from mega hr yeah and they'll be like you can't be calling

our world champion a piece of shit i'm like well if he doesn't act like a piece of shit i wouldn't call him that but you know but you know that isn't that his job to act like a piece of shit and I'd be like well if he doesn't act like a piece of shit I wouldn't call him that but you know but you know that isn't that his job to act like a piece of shit not backstage to the boys oh really yeah yeah he's a low life man

he's a young kid who just thinks he knows it all and he doesn't fuck him I don't give a shit what are you gonna do fire me okay

yeah I'll work I'll work somewhere and make money it doesn't bother me but your your journey to where you are

was it was fucking hard yeah was uh it was fucking hard yeah it was that's a nice way of putting it yeah i mean you grew up where'd you grow up i grew up in yonkers new york i was born in the bronx uh university avenue but then grew up in yonkers yeah and i mean because i read a piece on you and it was like you know i kind of related to it because i i did stand up for you know a long time before anything happened and you get to that point where you're like fuck what's gonna when is this gonna pop off yeah yeah and then you like you hit the wall yeah and then you're just tired and you're done and you don't know what to do and then you're like for me it was during the pandemic yeah yeah i was selling my clothes my wrestling gear oh my god or wherever but did

you have you had fans at that point yeah so i had independent fans yeah so i was getting money but it was still like i'm trying to pay for the mortgage in florida you know what i mean and oh you're in florida yeah yeah and i'm part of florida orlando yeah that's not a happy place i like it because no one knows me and i'm just in my backyard and smoking a little bit of weed and no one knows me so you live down there now yeah i live down there now they're gonna get mad at me like i'm like i'm like the biggest heel to orlando because i talk shit about it and they just always yell at me well i don't blame you because during the pandemic i went to the 7-eleven the pandemic just started yeah just started i go to the 7-eleven i'm wearing my mask and everything

no one in there is yeah nobody well there's that but i i kind of get stuck in like the the theme park thing if you just go to orlando and all you experience is the theme park then they hate you because they're like you didn't go out and get a hamburger you didn't go out and do this or that yeah i don't go out thank god for uber eats when i get home from the road it's five guys and ben and jerry's from 7-Eleven. That's it. But what were you doing? When did you leave New York? Oh, man. I was 33, 34. Met a girl. Yeah, but you started wrestling when you were in New York?

Yeah, I was 20 years old when I started wrestling, yeah. Wait, how did that happen? Is this something you always wanted to do? Always wanted to do it, and then I was ironworking in the city for local 580. What's up, boys? Yeah. So you were a union guy.

Yeah, my whole family's union, all elevated. Iron workers? No, local one. My uncle Kevin Moore, rest in peace, he was an iron worker. Now, were you like up on like- Yeah, yeah. Sitting on the girders? Yeah, that and the hoist and all that stuff.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hanging off the side of the building, welding, putting windows in, all that stuff. Holy shit. and all that stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Hanging off the side of the building, welding, putting windows in, all that stuff. Holy shit.

So I just turned around and I saw like a 70, 80-year-old guy who's been on the job God knows how long. Right. And he's just coughing up a lung and drinking on the job site. And I went,

I'm smoking my cigarette going, there's got to be something more than this. And I just got AOL. Yes, I'm older. Yeah. And I just looked up wrestling schools near me. Which one did you go to?

I went to one in Jersey. They kicked me out. I'm a New York kid, so I'm not going to hold my tongue. I didn't know I had to be whatever professional, I guess they call it. Right, right, right. Like if I saw someone who was being an asshole, I was like, oh, you're an asshole. But they're like, oh, he's been in the business this amount of years. You can't be mean like that. I'm like, what, you're an asshole. But they're like, oh, he's been in the business this amount of years. You can't be mean like that.

I'm like, what are you talking about? Anyway, I kicked out of there. Went to a place in Pennsylvania called Jakara, where a lot of us are from. A lot of the AEW people. They trained there? Yeah. They learned? Yeah, they all learned from there and then just took off.

And what do you learn? Mostly, do you learn how to put together a persona or just moves? For me, it wasn't the persona. You already had that. That was just me, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is me. learned how to put together a persona or just moves for me it wasn't the persona you already had that was just me yeah yeah this is me uh yeah they teach you how to tell a story okay not just what moves to do but how to tell it like you know what i mean like how do you put that together and you had like you're you're going on tonight yeah i don't i don't talk about it oh i like because after 21 years in not that I know it is just after 21

years in I don't remember a lot of things right can't tell me what you're gonna do cuz I'll forget oh really yeah they just got to react oh listen we just got to react to yeah and do what we would do in real life if we're in a real fight I try to keep it in you know fresh yeah character I guess you can say what I mean I don't want to talk to you out there, so I'm not going to talk to you back here. We may go over little things here and there, but other than that, let's just.

So it's just the assumption that everybody can respond to the move you're going to put on them. Yeah. Yeah, we're just going to see what happens. And if they react, they react. If they don't, then we'll go a different way. Right. Now, when he started, though, what was the, you know,

what was the independent scene like at that time? Oh, it was shitty. Yeah. It was horrible. I was getting like $5 a show,, it was shitty. It was horrible. I was getting like $5 a show, $10 a show. And promoters, though, did they take advantage of you? Oh, God, yeah. Yeah.

Of course, yeah. The indie scene didn't pop off on the East Coast until about, I say, 05, 06. Oh, really? And that's when I was a couple years in. And then there were guys like me, Samoa Joe, Homicide, Brian Danielson, all those guys made the independence really hot. Right. But they still screwed you.

Yeah, but before, did you see like dudes who had been at it too long and that were like sad? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's how I feel I look like now in the locker room to the guys. I'm just sitting in the corner going, when are we done with this? But it didn't scare you? It didn't make you think like, holy make you think no because i didn't want to do anything for my life this is it yeah you know if i wasn't going to do this and i was just going to do i ain't working or whatever so when shit went bad what happened you just dried up the work dried up or you know covid hit and that was everything that was it everything dried up yeah you know

unless you were with the two big companies yeah Yeah. AEW and the other place. Yeah. Yeah. And, yeah, if you didn't have it, you were just home. Yeah. Waiting. And how did you get this gig? I mean, how did you...

I talked a lot of shit. I had an independent show finally. Yeah. After COVID. Out in New York. Yeah. After COVID. And I just grabbed the microphone one day and I said, hey, Cody Rhodes had a thing going

here. Yeah, yeah. Open challenge. Yeah. So I said, hey, Cody, all these guys that you're fighting are kids. I'm a grown man. Yeah. All this stuff.

And then it caught wind on Twitter. Oh, really? Yeah. And I was like, okay. And then they called me in and they were like, oh, we want to bring you in to wrestle Cody. And the first question I asked was how much, how much we're getting. Yeah. Because the way I didn't look how much how much we getting yeah because the way I didn't look at it

like I was getting a contract right I didn't look at it as a tryout you just saw it like a one nighter yeah I looked at it like

okay man I can pay my mortgage next month so I'm good to go but they signed you yeah yeah I got lucky I had a good dance partner

yeah with Cody and we beat each other up and two weeks later they were like hey you you want a contract I go yeah how much

and how much? And how many matches you do in a week? Oh, for AEW, it's once a week. But you don't go out at all? Oh, no, I do. I like doing the independents still. Yeah. Because without the independents, I would have went nuts years ago.

So you just like it to do the shows? Yeah, yeah. And a lot of times, well, they already announced it a couple times. I hate it when they do this. I usually will go there and do a show, but I'll tell them, take half my money and give it to a charity that's local. Right. And I tell them not to announce it, just do it.

Yeah. And they announced it anyway. So, yeah, that's what I like to do. Oh, yeah. And they're like, really? I'm like, look, you guys kept me fed for years. Right. And I had nothing, so let me help you back out.

Oh, that's nice. Yeah. I don't like being nice, but it happens once in a while. Well, I mean, yeah, you don't have to tell people. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But like when you go to England, have you been there a lot? Yeah.

A couple times. About eight or nine times. And what's it seem like there? I don't know how it is now after COVID. But before COVID, I lived out there for three months. Yeah. And it was every day was a show. Yeah.

Except for like a Monday we had off. And the fans? Oh, insane. I love the fans over there. Now, so this, you know,

this international, right? So they all know you from this. Yeah. Right. Hopefully they do. Hopefully they know me from this. Yeah.

Yeah. But no, they knew me before that, but not a lot. You know what I mean? Like I had a little niche, you know, like punk rock.

Right. I had that little group. Yeah, yeah. Not a whole worldwide mass audience. Where else do you go internationally? I'm trying to go back to Japan. Yeah. Yeah, so that.

I hear that's crazy. Yeah, it's, I love, the Japanese style is what I'm really into. What makes it different? It's more, it's treated more like a sport. Oh, yeah. And it's harder hitting, but it's but you know, it's in there. Yeah. That's what I do.

I'll hit you. You'll know I'm here. I'm not going to hurt you. You'll go home with your, you know, see your wife and kids, but I'm going to, I'm going to let the person in the front row go. God damn. Yeah. Yeah.

I was there at the Newark show, Full Gear, where you fought Jun Akiyama. I mean, obviously like you talk about it, you have a reverence for that style and, you know, want to go back there. But it did feel like that was a very emotional moment for you to fight that guy. Yeah, it was because, like, I saw that guy wrestle when I was 14, 15, and now I'm wrestling him in a ring in Newark near home. Yeah. With a big company. I was like, yeah, of course this is emotional. I didnark near home. Yeah. With a big company. I was like, yeah, of course there's emotion.

I didn't think this. Yeah. I thought I was going to be done with wrestling after, you know, COVID hit. I thought other things too as a kid. I thought I'd be dead by 26 because of the way I was acting. Yeah. You know what I mean? I was just being a punk kid, nothing crazy, you know?

So just to have that moment and I'm facing right across the ring from a guy who I idolized, I'm like, this is fucking trippy. We just kept calling each other out well I did on Twitter and I said oh this is my dream match this is my dream match and it caught wind again on Twitter yeah and he was just yeah I'll do it and I was like that's it they're like yeah he wants to come in I was like it was crazy man it was nuts like at one point I wanted to take off my boots and go okay i'm done yeah like nothing's gonna beat that you know what i mean but i got a lot of people i don't know man i don't look at me doing this for myself when i get frustrated or whatever with the business everyone gets frustrated i just think of other people yeah not myself it's whatever with me i don't know if you

notice i really am not a i don't love myself too much, but enough. But I think about my mother, my mama's boy. I think about my father. I think about all my friends. So anytime I get all crazy and want to get out of this thing, I think of everyone else. Same thing with Akiyama. I was like, yeah, I'm done. I don't want to wrestle no more.

But he gave me confidence, and he was like, I believe that. What did he say? He said, I believe you'll be champion here. And I was like, oh, shit, I guess I got to stay. You know what I mean? And when you hit the wall though were you how was your health i mean were you like you know just fucked up uh just you know mentally fucked up i guess you can say like i talk about mental health a lot because to me it's a real thing sure of course i mean i'm on zoloft so i don't you know what i mean i chill out yeah but it's a real thing and i've seen it i've seen it in my family. Yeah, yeah.

I've seen it with a couple of friends I've lost from suicide. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah. Mentally, you know what I mean? It's a struggle. But physically, I feel better than I ever have because now I can afford ice baths. Oh, yeah. You know what I mean?

And saunas. Before, I couldn't. Ice baths really work? Yeah, yeah. What does it do? Just, you know, brings down the swelling on your body. Oh, okay. You know what I mean mean so i'll hop in the ice bath or after tonight you may see me with ice on my shoulders and my neck yeah nothing's wrong it's just to bring down the swelling yeah because after 21 years of you know getting beat up it hurts after a while i bet yeah like was there a

turning point or something that clicked in that made you go public with things about mental health and awareness? Yeah, it was being part of AEW and then seeing the reach that this company has. Yeah. And I was like, well, if I'm going to talk about it, might as well talk about it now and people will listen. Right, right. You know what I mean?

And I don't care if people take it and believe in mental health or whatever. I really don't care. The people I care about are the people that get it yeah and i'm going through it and you probably hear back from people right yeah and it's a little weird it's a little weird because i don't save my life yeah i don't that's not me i don't do things for that no i know but i just do it because it's the right thing to do yeah i get the same reaction with the podcast like i didn't get into it for that but when someone writes you an email and says you know i probably would have killed myself if it weren't oh yeah that gets me yeah

that gets me because i don't know i don't my mother says this to me all the time she goes you like to give she goes you like to give out love yeah but you never like to take it in she goes that's the irish oh yeah i'm irish reporter yeah so my father's side always gets the bad rep yeah so i'm wrong and they're both still around? Yep, they're both around. Yeah, man, they're happy. They come to matches? Yeah, they come when we're in New York, yeah. My father just sits there in amazement.

Yeah, oh, really? Yeah, because he was always there for me and my dad, but he was tough. Yeah. You know what I mean? He always wanted me to get out at some point and get a regular job and all that, but he was always there. Yeah. Always there to do things for me, so.

He must be impressed. Yeah, man. He says he's proud of me, and I look at him and go, oh, okay, what the fuck? I did it. Yeah, I guess so. You know what I mean? Do you feel like you're getting better at taking the love

since you have a huge fan base now? No, no, no, I don't. I don't. There's been nights where I'll be in the hotel room after, like, a match, and everyone's loving it. That's why I got rid of Twitter. Yeah. Because I don't even want to hear the praise.

Yeah. Because to me, this is not a big deal. I'm doing what I wanted to do since I was nine. What's your reaction to praise? What does it make you feel? I just don't feel good. I feel uncomfortable. Oh, right.

Because to me, like I said, I'm doing something I wanted to do since I was nine. Right. I'm not doing anything special. I'm just living my dream. Yeah. But if you want to take this journey with me cool but yeah sometimes praise is hard to believe yes it is very hard very hard to believe especially when you know some of the dumb shit you've done in the past you're like what yeah exactly so yeah no yeah I just don't I don't like it because I don't do things for praise yeah yeah I do it because I either a want

to do it or it's the right but it's nice to be appreciated yeah no it definitely is when my mom does people close to me when the people close to me are appreciative that's what it means a lot well it was great talking to you man alright I guess we're done you guys got busy stuff to do we're just slugs sitting on a couch

I fight dog it ain't nothing busy my first live wrestling show dude you're going to have a blast get ready for that Young Bucks match, man. Okay. Watch those crazy guys go. Great talking to you. Thank you.

What I found is that, specifically, I kept trying to picture these guys next to a sports locker room. They're different personalities, and it's like they're not anything like them. And they're more like me. You talk to all these wrestlers and stuff. They're definitely show business people. Whereas, like, you know, and they know that, right? So whatever the natural condescension would be on behalf of an MMA fighter or a football player in that situation, which I'm not even sure would happen. But it's like they're not aspiring to any of that. This is wrestling. This is a big show. This is the circus.

You know, you guys, you're fighting for something else. Right, right, right. You know, you're doing something entirely different. Right. But also, like, I think, you know, one of the best moments was really, like, when they have these opening matches, right, leading up to the regular guys. And you told me that some of these guys are just local wrestlers.

Yes. So like that dude from L.A., you know, you said they pay him for the night. Yeah, usually you get about 800 bucks or something like that. Right, you know, and he does the match that no one, it's not that they don't care, but it's just, you know, it's the opening act. It's a preliminary match. Opening action. Yeah.

And then, like, after everything's all said and done, you were hungry, we go back to catering, the food's all gone, it's out on the table. Yeah. Getting ready to put away. And then the guy who was in one of the opening matches is, like, filling up a takeout thing. Yeah, cookies and stuff. Yeah, and some shrimps and things. To take it home, yeah. To take it home.

But I'm like, that's, that's show business. Yeah. It's like he made his 800 bucks. He's not part of the thing, but he's in town. He's probably going to go home and have that food tomorrow. I mean, I know exactly what that is. Even now I go do shows and, you know, I only have two things on my rider, you know, like a bag of cashews and the Zevia soda. Yeah. So, like, when I'm on the road, I'm like, I'm taking these cashews. Oh, when we went to, when you did your HBO show

and you had all that Russ and Daughter stuff, you're like, everybody's got to take this stuff. We got to, you know. Yeah, don't let this go to waste. Yeah, yeah. But it's just that, to me, has always been the nature of show business is that, you know, you do the thing.

Yeah. And then you're backstage again. And it's sort of like, all right, so like, where, where's my jacket? But ultimately all in all, uh, yeah, very engaging, you know, and I was open to it and, uh, you know, I found it to be entertaining and emotional and it was, and I loved the idea that they are, they are my show business brothers. That's right. And sisters. I mean, really, like, I will say, like, I don't want to say, like, I had a secret motivation to this. But it was kind of like, I did have a kind of mentality of, like, Ferris Bueller's Day Off. Like, you know, you watch that movie and you think it's about this kid who's, like, fucking around and just wants to take off his school.

And then, you know, it gets to the end and you realize, like, no, no, he wanted to do this for his friend. Like, he wanted his friend to see the world and see that things were cool. And I've always kind of thought, you know, especially as we've talked about you doing other things. Yeah. I knew that so many things were pointless because it's like, no, Mark doesn't engage with things on like a fan level. He's not going to watch, you know, a Star Wars show week to week and talk about it. Sometimes music, sometimes music. Sure, sure.

But like, you know, and yeah, you go to concerts and that about it sometimes music sometimes music sure sure but like uh you know and yeah you go to concerts and that but that's a fine that's a thing like one time and it ends and i said like you know look this is a thing i've been into my whole life yeah and i'm not into it from the level of like oh i believe it's real or i believe like i i'm into it because it's what i think is good show business like i, I really don't think I ever would have gotten into any kind of entertainment if I had not been a wrestling fan. Right. Because I integrated what I learned from watching it from a show perspective. What were they presenting to me?

How is this happening on a week-to-week basis? And I think it was basically wrestling and SNL were the two things that kind of formed in my brain around what is entertainment how is this not just you know fake stories that get put on a screen right yeah and they're similar like one is the the uh it's the id and the ego of show business that's interesting yeah exactly wrestling is this ongoing id yeah of show business yeah yeah it's wild yeah but thanks for taking me yeah Yeah, thanks for doing it. And thanks for, you know, anybody from AEW is listening. Thanks for hosting us and being willing to talk to us. And to me, it was not just fun.

Like, I have fun at wrestling matches. But it was a new experience for me. Yeah. Oh, to be backstage? No, no, no. To be there with you. Oh, thanks, buddy. I've never really been there with somebody who didn't follow it or didn't know it.

But I didn't seem bored, did I? No. I wasn't. I was into it. I thought I had a fun time with it. Yeah, yeah. And I just had a fun time knowing that, oh, this is somebody experiencing it for the first time. I don't know if you've ever had that of somebody maybe you're like, oh, you've never listened to this record?

Oh, yeah, I love it. Yeah, and you're just sitting there like, huh? Right. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I was kind of aware of that for a minute. But then I was like, you know, I'm into this. I'm okay. Yeah, right, right.

You're just like, whatever. I'm on for the ride. And the other thing was, like, so many people recognize me from GLOW. I realize, like, those are my people. Yes. Like, they all watch GLOW. Yeah, right, right. Exactly.

Like, I would be very surprised if a wrestling fan didn't watch GLOW. Yeah, it was like, it was aognition thing from a very specific thing. Yeah, yeah. Well, they had asked me when we were setting up, going to the show and all the preparations, and they said, does Mark want to get involved? And what get involved means is a bad guy will come over to you and maybe push you around, give him the stink eye or whatever. And I said, let's take it easy.

Yeah, next time. He's never. Well, I was just going to ask you. I was like, if we ever went back, would you get involved? Yeah, well, there was a point when, you know, Max was up there doing his heel business. And he brings up Freddie Prinze and he brings up Ken Jeong. And I'm like, I'm right here, dude. Take your shot.

I met you backstage. I can handle it. That's right. I think that probably was my fault by saying no. They probably were like, don't involve Marc Maron in the act. He doesn't want to. Yeah. Next time I got to be part of it.

Well, Paul Walter Hauser took a guitar to the head last night after we left. Oh, he did? Yeah. Oh, that's right. He told us he was going to. He brought his Golden Globe with him. Yeah. That was the deal.

He was going to hit a guy with the Golden Globe. And then the other guy was going to crack a guitar over his head. Right. Yeah. Yeah. No, I'm game. Okay. Yeah.

We'll do it next time. All right. Sounds good. All right, buddy. Okay. That's it. right? Huh? AEW airs Wednesday nights on TBS and Friday nights on TNT. There's another two hours of Wrestling with Mark available for full Marin subscribers.

And if you aren't already a full Marin subscriber, hang out for a second and I'll tell you more, especially you wrestling fans. Discover the timeless elegance of Cozy, where furniture meets innovation. Designed in Canada, the sofa collections are not just elegant, they're modular, designed to adapt and evolve with your life. Reconfigure them anytime for a fresh look or a new space. Experience the Cozy difference with furniture that grows with you, delivered to your door quickly and for free. Assembly is a breeze, setting you up for years of comfort and style. Don't break the bank. Cozy's Direct2 model ensures that quality and value go hand in hand. Transform your living space today with Cozy. Visit cozy.ca, that's C-O-Z-E-Y, and start customizing your furniture. For full Marin subscribers, next week we'll release some of the producer cuts that have been piling up. These are clips that didn't make it into actual episodes for whatever reasons, usually good reasons.

Brendan will tell you why they were cut and play the clips from Colin Hanks, Brendan Fraser, James Gray, and Andrea Riceboro. And if you want to sign up for the full Marin, just go to the link in the episode description or sign up at WTFpod.com by clicking the WTF Plus button. You'll get every episode of WTF ad-free plus weekly bonus content. And now for all you wrestling fans who are subscribed, we're going to have a Friday wrestling wrap-up show. Reviews of current matches, classic shows, interviews, and my continuing wrestling education. That's a special Friday show in addition to the weekly bonus content we're already doing.

We're crazy and we work too much. My HBO special, From Bleak to Dark, premieres this Saturday, February 11th at 10 p.m. on HBO and on demand on HBO Max. I'm proud of it. Enjoy it. And here's some lazy but, you know, pounding guitar. guitar solo Thank you. Thank you. Boomer lives. Monkey and Lafonda. Cat angels everywhere. Jesus told me so.