WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1412 - Daniels (Daniel Kwan & Daniel Scheinert)

Episode Date: February 23, 2023

Daniel Kwan and Daniel Scheinert share a first name, a passion for filmmaking and now awards for Best Director. But the duo known as Daniels have backgrounds that are as divergent as the multiverse they invented for Everything Everywhere All At Once. They talk to Marc about their distinctions, such as growing up with undiagnosed ADHD versus being an academic overachiever, one being influenced by Rian Johnson's Brick, the other an acolyte of Tim & Eric, and various embarrassing moments of their youth that helped define their work. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series, streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required.

T's and C's apply. Lock the gates! All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck nicks? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron.

This is my podcast. This is my podcast WTF my podcast wtf how's it going today on the uh on the show uh the daniels are here that's that's they go by the daniels they do they direct movies it's daniel kwan and daniel scheinart they're the writers and directors of everything everywhere all at once at once, as well as the movie Swiss Army Man. A lot of music videos, television episodes. Swiss Army Man is a fucked up weird movie. So I was excited to talk to them about this. I made The Crowd.

The Crowd is good. I actually had my buddy Jerry Stahl came over. I unloaded some crowd on Jerry. I'm giving crowd away. I'm going to be the crowd guy. I'm thinking about getting another batch of kraut going, trying to adjust to this vegetarian business. And again, not a lifestyle choice.

Just wanted to see if I could do it and see if it's satisfying and it makes me feel better. It does not. The other day, I ate a plate of rice and beans and broccoli rabe and fake meat. And I thought my entire system was going to seize up and I was going to die. Like I ate it at two in the afternoon, could not eat anything until the next morning. Now, maybe I'm doing it wrong.

I don't know. I'm doing the research. I'm trying to do it right. But I think I feel better. I feel like there's some part of me that, and again, this is not ideological, but I do think there's some part of me that feels like I've eaten enough meat for one lifetime. And is it an ethical thing? I don't know.

Maybe it is a little bit because nothing really upsets me more than when animals are in pain. I think if I'm in a movie, you know, God willing, I get another movie and I need to cry. I just can't, I'm just going to think of that polar bear on that and that floating around on that one piece of ice always got left. Just think about that polar bear. I can, I can make me cry right now. Think about whales washing up on the beach, thinking about lost dogs. I i mean it's fucking shattering and i get so upset with it more than people you know people like fuck them they're that you know like i i mean i understand everyone's gonna die but sometimes the discomfort and torture and pain of

animals is so much more upsetting you know i mean i't know. I think people have a, you know, they've, they've had a good run of the world and they've, they've, you know, look, if we all go, we all go. That's the other thing I don't understand. Who the fuck wants to live after an apocalypse? There's so many people putting so much effort into preparing like these bunker people. It's like, why would you want to live? Like me personally, like, would I want to live after an apocalypse? No, because I'm not prepared. I have no canned foods. I don't want to be the guy kind of running around, you know, talking to the bunker people saying like, come on, man, can I just get a can of beans? All we've got is a jerky and canned meat.

I'm like, I'm kind of not doing meat right now. Uh, do you got any, any beans or any vegetables, canned vegetables of any kind? And then, uh,

they butcher me. They kill me and butcher me and make me into jerky. That's how it plays out in my head. I'm just riffing here. I feel okay today. You know, I don't know what's driving me. I gotta be honest with you.

Sometimes shit has to fester for a long time. You have to get good and ripe with a resentment, with a problem, with a secret before you fucking pop. And then you're ready to go. I mean, some people, they just, you know, automatically process it right away. But look, man, you might just be a cauldron of, of emotional garbage that's starting to overflow. And there's nothing, I don't know, it goes either way. Sometimes that's attractive. You're like sort of, hey, what's in that pot over there? It looks like it's bubbling.

Or Jesus Christ, somebody get that off the fire. Either way, if you're the cauldron, I don't know, you might need to talk to somebody. I'm on the edge of it. I'm on the edge of it right now because I'm feeling okay. And that for me is scary. It's a big problem because in my past experience, people don't like me when I feel good. I can just feel it. I have a friend, happened the other night. This friend of mine, a comic who has known me for a long time was like, how's your special? And I'm like, it's great. And they were like, oh, well, that's good. You know, like I knew that there was some part of them was sort of like, hey, where's old miserable Mark? Where's old, like, hey,

it wasn't that good. I don't know. I'll try again. You know, there's something about me feeling okay with myself that people that have known me a long time find unattractive. So what I need to do, I guess, is really focus on what's upsetting me, but getting back to this meat business. So I don't know if it's becoming an ethical thing with me, the not eating meat, but I get it. Like I've really eaten a lot of meat in my life. When you really think about it, just break it down. How many pigs, how many chickens, how many cows, how many fish, how many eggy-weggies, you know, how much have you ingested? And then I start to think about,

well, you know, it's not like with plants at some point, agriculture happened and mankind decided that we could just raise these animals and farm them and, and raise them to be eaten and raise them for dairy. Sure. Sure. But when it gets down to, you know, big agribusiness and just these sort of warehouses of pain that, you know, what goes into your meat. I thought that a long time ago, that the amount of terror I would imagine that big agriculture of the animals on big business farms, the amount of terror that is in those places is going right into your meat. You're just eating a patty of fear. You're just eating a nice prime cut of terror. And I think I've talked about this before, but it never really

bothered me. It bothered me a bit, but not enough to be like, I ain't eating that. Again, I'm not proselytizing. I'm not moralizing. I'm just coming to grips with the idea that maybe I've eaten to grips with the idea that maybe I've eaten enough animals. And if it's possible for me to find a way to eat without eating them, and also mind you, I'm also waiting out for my heart and my sugar and stuff. Maybe that's good. I don't want to eat the pain. I'm tired of eating pain. I'm tired of eating my own pain. I'm tired of eating the animal pain. I can handle the sadness of broccoli. You know, I can handle the sadness of cabbage, though I treat cabbage very nicely, but I can handle the melancholy of vegetables. I'm not sure I can handle the terror of animals or the pain of animals. I just don't want, I don't know if I want another kind of a

skewer of a fear. I don't know if I want it again, not moralizing, not, uh, proselytizing, not pontificating. I just feel like I've eaten my share of animal terror, but again, don't hold me to it because there will come a day. I'm a weak guy. Uh, you know, I can hold on for a while, but eventually I give in and then who knows how long it's going to go on for like this cigar disaster. It's a fucking train wreck. I'm fucking up on my porch in the morning, dude, puffing on fucking stubs from the night before. morning, dude, puffing on fucking stubs from the night before. This is where it goes. This is like, you want to talk about addiction and compulsion. I haven't had dessert in a month. I had one piece of halva at a middle Eastern place the other night. The next day I'm like, holy shit, I need to fucking mainline some processed sugar. It's that quick. And to get off these cigars, I just

can't, I have to just do a cold Turkey, but then there's that part of your brain that's like, but I'm enjoying it. Look, I'm sitting down. So look, I'm not saying I'm not going to kind of spiral and have a tomahawk steak and some bacon. But I'm saying this is my thought process right now. This is my thought process. If I feel so moved by the pain of animals why am I eating that pain again not moralizing personal and again there will come a day where I will eat a whole fucking chicken but today I'm thinking about this stuff listen the Daniels are here. They just won the Director's Guild Award

for Everything Everywhere All at Once and are nominated three times at this year's Oscars for Best Picture, Best Director, and Best Original Screenplay. And I realize that sometimes I'm not as professional as I should be in terms of, like, I rarely have two guests in the place. But if you want to ID their voices so you can keep track of them in this episode, the first person you hear, the first guy you hear respond to me is Daniel Kwan. He says, wow, what a compliment. That's Daniel Kwan. And then Dan Scheinert is the one who goes on to talk about dressing nicer and feeling like a phony. There you go. There's your key for this episode. Here we go.

Let's do it. Me and the Daniels. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis

company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that.

An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun. A new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. you guys like what how's how's it going with this roller coaster you're you seem pretty casual like normal people i don't feel like the oscar buzz and the momentum and the junket has at least

changed the way you dress wow what. What a compliment. Thank you. That was very intentional of me today. Literally. Yeah. I'm not going to wear the fancy shit. Yesterday I was like dressed a little nicer and we did some interviews and I was really tired and I felt a little bit like a phony. Yeah. And then today I put on clothes that I've owned for, you know, 10 years. You went back to it. I was like, I'm going to dress like myself. Yeah. for 10 years. You went back to it. I was like, I'm going to dress like myself.

Yeah. I'm going to... Relax. What's the phony attire? I mean, it's still me. It's still all my stuff. It's just like nicer.

Oh, yeah. Sure, I have that stuff. I don't have a button-up shirt. You wear it twice. Yeah. You buy it to wear things and then you don't... Are you guys set

for the formal wear? Yes. Let's get straight into it. I think so. I don't know. The funny thing is there's at least two... I think so I don't know The funny thing is There's at least Two

I think there's at least Two award shows Every weekend Until the Oscars Really And so that adds up Yeah Did somebody step up

And dress you Well actually Our incredible costume designer Shirley Carrada Who worked on our movie She comes from The fashion world So she offered

To do me a favor So she's been helping me Hook up every event. Really? Because otherwise, it's so much work. And did she get the connection? So they're getting you the free shit? I mean, yeah, it's some free shit.

But then also, sometimes you just borrow something, and that's great. Yeah, of course. Then you don't feel like you have to put it in your closet forever. It's kind of the best way. A free rental. It's a free rental. It's amazing. But the fun thing is she's known for dressing like hip-hop artists

and just going very weird with her stuff. So she's got some really good hookups. Oh, so you guys are going to stand out. You're going to be the youngsters with attitude at the Oscars. We like color, but I've been. The youngsters with attitude. Is that going to be our tagline? I like that.

Yeah. You guys are just going to walk our tagline? I like that. Yeah. You guys are just going to walk down that aisle. Or some people online, someone called us a soy boy, right? And we were like, hell yeah, we are. We're going to be like colorful soy boys. Who the fuck called you a soy boy? I can't remember. Dan brought it up.

And I was like, I love soy milk. Was it a troll? Yeah, it was a troll. It's one of those things where like. Maybe I don't even know the definition. That's right, but it's a troll thing. It sounds cool those things where like- Maybe I don't even know the definition. And that's why it's a troll thing. It sounds cool. Hipster also sounds cool.

Hipster is fine. Soyboy, beta male, those are the- Hell yeah. Soyboy, beta male, cuck. I'm into all these things, yeah. We're getting right into it. This is all- You can't hurt us.

Your arrows are just falling off our bodies. Yeah, there's arrows that sting, but those ones I'm like- Well, what the fuck could they come- What are those guys coming at you for? Well, I mean, it happens anytime you get too big. And I think we were kind of lucky enough to exist in this industry just at the right level of success where we found our audience. And those people were our people. And it was kind of great.

And then, of course, with this movie, all of a sudden we are being exposed to all sorts of different kinds of humans. And some people just don't want... I don't know. I think we're just like silly boys. Some people don't think the world needs more silly boys. But they can't really identify a political agenda

in what you do. It's in there, bro. I'm fine with it. But I mean, it's not like, you know, usually those guys are worked up about liberals.

Yes. Yeah. That's their trip. Yeah, we are that. Of course you are. Sorry. But maybe I don't remember all of the movie

because there's a lot in it where it's expressed as clearly as that. Right. Is it? I mean, it's intentionally not. Yeah. In some ways, like early drafts, it was in there.

I mean, the whole movie is sort of a reaction to how we felt with the Donald in office. Donald in COVID? Or no, it's pre-COVID. It was pre-COVID. So apocalyptic Donald. Yeah. Just like terror of Donald every day. Exactly.

But then while writing, we found ourselves like it's really not helpful to just scream about that guy. Right. And so we really tried to get at something more complex than just like bullies suck. You know, it's sort of obvious. So you guys went deeper to this sort of – that's the reaction in an angry way to what was going on or in a terrified way. that's the reaction in an angry way to what was going on or in a terrified way. But if you go deeper into either anger or terror, then the complexities of how you're reacting and how it affects your mind is where you guys went.

And how it affects our families, you know, which is like something so many people have felt over the last several years. What do you have? I mean, like what do you mean family? You're from Alabama. I'm from Alabama. You grew up in Alabama? Yeah What part?

Outside Birmingham Really? Yeah I like Birmingham Yeah I don't I mean my experience there Was shooting a movie for two weeks

Yeah Sword of Trust Yes Uh huh I have a bunch of friends That worked on it You do? Yeah

That was great Yeah It turned out great Yeah I was so excited Do you know that store That we shot at? That weird old pawn shop?

No never been. But I thought, well, like in any like Southern city with a bit of a population, you have an aggressive progressive contingent. Yeah. That's definitely Birmingham. That's something I think people don't realize is that like Birmingham is progressive as hell. Oh, yeah.

And it's like, you know, fuck you. Look at that. We're here, you know? Totally. So when you say family, do you have, did their brains break during Trump? No, I mean, not my immediate family, but the community did, and, like, it was a very divisive time. It still is, you know? Yeah.

And so, like, the more extended the family gets, you know, the more variety there is. And what about when you were growing up? Like, what was your world like? What did your folks do? Yeah, my parents were, they both were in, like, telecommunications and had, like, normal kind of office-y jobs for, like, companies that got swallowed up

by AT&T eventually. Okay. And funnily enough, that was my family story, too. Really? Yeah, both my parents are immigrants, but they both ended up in telecommunications. In what capacity? Well, my father was was he started out more as a programmer and then eventually he went into marketing um once especially once the languages started to get

too advanced or like he was starting to fall behind he became more of like a market or like a salesperson okay um and my mother she she started out with like local colleges, just the basics of windows. And where'd they come from? My dad's from Hong Kong and my mother's from Taiwan. Oh, wow. Yeah. But it's just funny that both of our parents ended up in telecommunications because the same thing happened. So many mergers and so many moments where different companies bought out the company that my dad was at.

That's why we moved a bunch growing up. But do you think, can you track any sort of a specific way it affected your minds? Telecommunications? Or is that just a coincidence? Are you trying to draw a connection? Because we were involved in something almost psychic at the time. I do think it, no, not that, but I mean, maybe, but I do think that like my parents were exposed

to more than just Alabama, you know, by being part of these companies and traveling, et cetera. Like it wasn't like I grew up in like a super insular small town. You only know your relatives. You know, like my mom traveled a lot. And so it kind of, I wasn't like just. Right. Stuck.

Stuck in that. In Alabama mind. And neither were they. Yeah. That's interesting. Yeah. I mean, for me, just the fact that my dad was such a computer nerd. Yeah.

We had a desktop before most people did. And we had internet before most people did. So I was really tech savvy from a pretty young age. Like I was able to type when I was like, I don't know. Can you program? I used to, really? It's all gone now. Like I can, I can do the really simple stuff if I have to, like some, like, like, you know, website redesign or whatever, but most of it's gone. Or hack into my computer to figure out. Exactly. I'm not that good. You couldn't do it? No. But what it taught me was just how to teach myself on the computer,

which I think is, was so invaluable to us as filmmakers because the only reason why we kind of broke out at the time we did was because there was so much information online

to teach ourselves how to film, how to become filmmakers, how to do visual effects, how to edit. All that stuff was like mostly learned online by ourselves. Really?

I mean, a lot of it, yeah. Because, well, that's the one thing about both movies, about Swiss Army Man and everything, everywhere, all at once. It seems like from a layman's perspective, like, how are they doing these effects, man? It's like, how did they shoot this in the time they shot it? And this is crazy. effects, man. It's like, how'd they shoot this in the time they shot it in? This is crazy. But I guess once you know how to do them, it's not daunting

and it's probably not as complicated as I think it is. Yeah. I mean, that was our MO when we first started out was we were the music video guys who could do all our own visual effects. Do the Matrix shit? Give us a couple thousand dollars, we'll make you look crazy. We could do the cheap Matrix shit. Yeah, very janky,

but that was sort of the charm. It was like, oh, our ideas are ambitious and we can figure out how to jankily pull it off. But when you were a kid doing your computer business, where did you grow up? Massachusetts. Where? Right outside of Worcester. What town? Westboro. Do you know Westboro, Max? Yeah, I know all those towns.

Oh, yeah, okay. I started comedy and doing one-nighters in the New England area. Oh, great. That's fun. So it was weird. I just got a text today about my HBO special from a guy who used to book those gigs. No way. Back when I was there in like 88.

Oh, my God. 1988. Oh, yeah, that precedes me. Yeah, well, this guy was booking me on comedy shows. Amazing. It's Mike Clack. Mike Clack. Clack.

Lenny Clack's brother. That's like classic. That sounds like a – Classic Worcester. Yeah. That. Clack. Lenny Clack's brother. That's like classic. That sounds like a... Classic Lister. Yeah. That sounds so close to like a prank phone call name. Well, I think... Mike Clack.

Mike Clack. Yeah. And then his brother Lenny Clack, and there was a Mac Clack. Mac Clack? No. Really? Yeah. Mac Clack.

All right. We're going to put that in one of our movies. Someone's going to be called Mac Clack. Mac Clack. But it's actually M-A-H-C-L-A. Yeah, that's good. So you grew up around that. Yes, yeah.

All of that around just the frenzy of sports fans. I think that's one of the things that really took me back when I first met you. Was it Patriots? It was everything. Oh, yeah. It was Patriots, Celtics. Saks. Yeah, the Red Sox.

Everyone was obsessed with every possible sport and every possible team. But you came out, you didn't get the accent. No, I didn't get the accent. You couldn't? Not at all. Westboro is, you know, it's a suburb. Yeah. And, yeah, we're pretty sheltered from a lot of that stuff.

There used to be a gig in Worcester at the Margaritaville. Stitches, a comedy club, had Stitches at Margaritaville, and it was a Mexican restaurant. Oh, that's fun. I think in a mall. Yeah, man. It was pretty beat up when you were growing up, I imagine, Worcester, right? Yeah, Worcester was, that was where we would go to see punk shows, at the Palladium. That was my scene. Yeah, it was so fun. Yeah, we actually, at one point, we played a, me and my really terrible garage band, we played a, what is it, Battle of the Bands at the Palladium. Oh, really?

Yeah. It was very traumatic. It's why I quit being a musician. Is that true? Yeah. I had a traumatic music experience that kept me out of the game. I was never in it professionally. Yeah, me neither.

But it took one embarrassing... Oh, I want to hear this now. What was this? I went to a music camp. I played guitar. Reconnect it. Yeah, me neither. But it took one embarrassing. Oh, I want to hear this now. What was this? I went to a music camp. I played guitar. Reconnect it. Oh, yeah. I've told this story, but I'm just now getting over it in the last five years.

Where like each, you were supposed to put together, you know, there's a presentation, a show. Yeah. At the end of camp. And I put together just this bunch of guys. All we were going to try to do is get through a fucking Chuck Berry song. Amazing. Just Johnny B. Good. Can we do it, fellas? But of course, a fucking Chuck Berry song. Amazing. It's just Johnny B. Goode. Can we do it, fellas?

But, of course, these idiots, they all got wasted. We were 15, and everybody fucked up. I couldn't get the key right. And it was just so in the—we were in front of the entire camp. But the punchline really is that the other group of guys who put a band together, the nerds, in my recollection, they got up on stage and played an entire Genesis record. Right. Of course. They just destroyed entire Genesis record. Right. So, of course.

They just destroyed you. Totally. Wow. And it really fucked me up in terms of singing and playing in front of people forever. That is, I mean, that's not too different from what happened. Well, we had a really cute pop punk band in the time when everyone was going. They were called, oh my God, this is so embarrassing. Now people can Google it? Is it Google-able?

I don't know. Do you not know about this no I do know I just wanted to say the name which is the captains of cute alright they were called the captains of cute because we were

it was it was two short women like five foot tall girls who were harmonizing and they were our you know

they were our front women so it was they were the faces of the whole thing and they were adorable and you were keyboards and hype man, right? I did synth and guitar, but

at the time in Worcester, it was all about grindcore and just everyone was getting... What's a grindcore band? Hit me, I don't know. The Locusts were kind of big back then. It's just like how loud, how technical can you be? Sing a little bit of it. Good luck.

I'm going to break one of your microphones. But incredibly technical work. It's like really hard stuff to play. Yeah. And sometimes people would mix it up with jazz. So you'd have a jazz solo into a grindcore breakdown. Okay. And everyone was doing it.

Not you. Not us. And because of that, we really stood out. And so we actually got a pretty big fan base within the school. And we had to sell tickets for the Battle of the Bands. And basically, the more tickets you sold, the better your time slot was. And so this was a two-day festival. The best time slot was around 7 to 8 o'clock on a Saturday night.

And we got 7.30 on a Saturday night because we sold so many tickets. The spot. The spot. Set up for success. And this was a big festival where it was more than just high school kids. So high school kids, adults, so people in their 20s and 30s were competing against us. Oh, wow. Yeah.

And we were just not ready for a stage that big. We had only done garage and basic. How big? It was, I mean, it was the Palladium. Downstairs at the Palladium which is basically one of those opera houses

that has like A couple thousand? Yeah, and you get the balcony to your everything. It was horrifying. How did you sell so many tickets?

Like I'm telling you, the freshman class. Right. You just had all these kid fans. We were seniors at the time. So you're in high school.

We were in high school. Okay, so you get up there and choke? Is that what happened? We get up and it's more than just a choke. I mean, this is the through line here. Our drummer got really high right beforehand

because he was nervous. And when the drummer's high, the whole thing falls apart. And so we had to just stumble our way through four or five songs. At one point, we did Twist and Shout by the Beatles. That was our one cover song. And oh my god, it was, it is so, it is so humiliating.

We actually, I'm feeling it a little bit. Yes. I'm glad you told your story first. It's helping a little bit, but I remember just watching out on, in the audience and seeing our friends and family

trying to dance along to our music and not being able to find the beat. And that was just like, so heartbreaking. Trying to hide the, the horrified reaction. They can't even clap along. There's nothing worse than looking out in the audience and seeing concerned faces of peers.

Of people who love you. And so we all just kind of hid backstage for like the next three or four sets because we couldn't go back out. That got you out. That got me out. Without that experience, we wouldn't have the movies got you out. That got me out. Without that experience, we wouldn't have the movies that you made.

Okay, thank you. That's a good way to... So now you share some trauma. Yeah, okay. Do you want to hear, should I do my Tim and Eric or my high school theater? Let's go back.

High school theater. Tim and Eric, that's embarrassing already. I don't even know what happened. But there's no way you're going to win there. Oh, yeah. What did they do to you? I was an intern there and I accidentally showed the entire cast and crew one of my testicles just like popped out. Just one. Yep. Huh. I just cut to this. It was on

camera. There's a, there's a sketch called D pants where they pour diarrhea all over me and they needed someone to pour the diarrhea on these. So you're the intern. Yeah. It was the intern. I volunteered cause I was like, I could be on this show that I love. And they put me in a dance belt, which is like a skin tone piece of underwear so they could make it seem like I was naked. So it's tight. So I walked out and right when I got out,

everyone stopped laughing. And then the costumer took me behind the psych wall and was like, adjust yourself. And then I could just hear Eric Wareheim giggling. Otherwise it was silent. There were probably like 40 people and I didn't laugh about it or talk about it

for years until I bumped into like Annie another intern years later and she was like do you remember when that happened

and I could finally laugh about it it was so terrifying testicle's good but the full package would have been worse you gotta frame it

I don't know in my brain at the time I was like that's worse because it's just like such a weird a single testicle? Just a ball? Yeah.

One ball. Oh, yeah. So there was no symmetry to it. No. No context. Maybe that's all you have down there. Yeah. There's no way anyone liked it.

Yeah. Right? Nobody liked it. Yeah. Right now it's the high school theater one. Oh, I get two. Does this involve a testicle? It's similar.

But is it the other testicle? I got to balance it out. This time I won't jump straight to the twist. I did like a dance piece and I was like the lead dancer's boy partner and learned a little bit of ballet and a lot of theater. And it was like opening night, you know, a couple hundred people. And when I lifted her up and I wasn't very good at this, I was supposed to slowly lower her, and her leg just ripped my skirt off, my weird little skirt. And again, I was wearing only a dance belt,

which means like in the front, it's like a weird little package, and in the back is my exposed ass. And so I just nervously turned around and mooned the audience and then turned back and then tried to finish the dance while covering myself. And my girlfriend's parents were in the front row. My best friends were in the back row. They made fun of me for years. Oh, boy.

It sounds like you should not be wearing dance belts. Yeah, no dance belts. Cautionary tale. Are you wearing one now? To overcome the trauma? To overcome it, I wear man thongs every day. But now I love it. Now I'm proud of them.

That's great. So how do you think, like, these experiences, because like, I mean, clearly music, you know,

plays a big, it's a big factor in how you approach the films. Yeah. And I guess like, there's some element, I don't know,

I just, when did you, when do you start to know that you want to be filmmakers? Like, for you separately, I imagine it was separate until you got to college,

right? Yeah. You didn't know each other as kids. No, no, we met in college. When did you start, when you fucked up the music career through embarrassment, what was the next thing?

Oh my God. This is, I was just talking about this with my mom because my mom's visiting from out of town. She just flew in yesterday and she was telling me why she thought I should have been a filmmaker from a very young age. Before I knew, she had the seed planted in her head that I would become a filmmaker,

which is very funny coming from a Chinese immigrant mother. That's the opposite of what you normally expect. Yeah, absolutely. But she had brilliant daughters. Yeah. And then she had you as a kid. It was covered? Yeah, and then by comparison, she was like,

something's, this boy's different. My doctor, are they doctors, the sisters? They're in the medical profession. Yeah.

Well, one, one went into pharmaceuticals, one went into the medicine. So yeah, you got a break.

I mean, in some ways, but also, you know, credit to my mom. She could tell I kind of struggled at everything in life.

I was, I was never really good at anything. And yeah, the music thing is just like one. That was the culmination of many failures. You're like, finally, I'm good at something. Yeah, exactly.

That was the first time I was just really passionate about something in a long time. And so my mother told me when it was time to go to college, she's like, why don't you try going to film school? And I was like, I laughed at her. I'm like, mom, do you know how hard it is to make it in the film industry yeah like that's ridiculous I don't even know how to pick up a camera I know nothing right but she knew like I like she knew I like to write stories she knew I loved music and she knew I liked photography that was like so it makes sense that all those things might combine into filmmaking but it wasn't until um many years later after I'd already like become a professional filmmaker that she told me when I was in third grade, um, one of her friends who was, uh, you know, very,

a very Christian friend of hers. And so she had a lot of friends who were in that world. Um, and one of them was a prophet, uh, you know, self self-proclaimed, uh, Christian prophet by the church. Um, I don't, I have no idea how that works. You have to apply. It's a long process to be an ordained prophet. And she came up to my mom after observing me playing for a while. I don't know. Again, I don't remember any of this. I was not aware of any of this.

And she told my mom, that boy one day is going to be a very, very famous film director. And my mom was like, wait, what? Him? And my mom was saying, wait, what? Him? And my mom was saying it yesterday. She was watching me play, and she's like, you were really quiet and awkward and just looked like a very nervous kid.

And I was really much like an introverted, quiet kid growing up and had no confidence in anything. I had the lowest self-esteem possible. So my mom just kind of like thought it was interesting and filed it away, but never told me about it. Why do you think that the, why do you think your self-esteem was so shattered? Well, I mean, it goes back to-

Was anyone hard on you? It sounds like your mom was okay. Was your dad a fan of yours? You came out looking pretty weird. I mean, there's so many things that I've been unpacking with my therapist. Yeah. But I will say that one of the biggest things is the fact that I was undiagnosed with ADHD, and I had no idea. And so one of the weird things that happens, you know, I got diagnosed like five years ago as an adult now.

What are the symptoms of that? I mean, it's different for everyone. five years ago as an adult now. What are the symptoms of that? I mean, it's different for everyone. But the biggest thing is we have something wrong with our prefrontal cortex, which is basically our executive function, our ability to have self-control,

to be able to regulate emotions, to be able to, you know, there's so many different things that tie to it. But for me, I just never could finish anything. And because of that, I looked at myself as a failure. And when you're undiagnosed, you're comparing yourself to everyone else who just seems like they're functioning normally. And you feel like there's something wrong with you. You have no idea why you can't keep up.

Do you know, like, because like for me, I'm not saying I have ADHD, but I'm going to try to connect. Yeah, yeah. It's relatable. Like if I don't finish something, it's usually when you don't finish things, you don't risk success or failure in a way. Totally. It is. A lot of it is tied to like this emotional sensitivity. Like a lot of studies nowadays are people are realizing procrastination has less to do with laziness and more to do with like, yeah.

Fear. Yeah. Yeah. You want to protect your weird little ego. Right. procrastination has less to do with laziness and more to do with like, yeah, how- Fear. Yeah, how, yeah, yeah, how fearful, you want to protect your weird little ego. Right, if you can say I'm not done yet, you don't have to present anything. Right, yeah. And so like the funny thing about ADHD

is all these things are things that everyone does. Like neurotypical people have all of these traits. The problem is ADHD people, it's constant and every day. So like hooking up with him enabled you to finish stuff because he would make you? A hundred percent.

Yes. No, I mean, you got it. You hit it on the head. The key to success is find a talented person with undiagnosed ADHD, convince them to finish some stuff and take half the credit. Exactly.

Genius. What a hustle. You're a genius. It's so wild. You hear that people who are marginally creative, exactly. Genius. What a hustle. Yeah. You're a genius. It's so wild. You hear that people who are marginally creative just attach yourself. Yeah, but it sounds

easier than it is. But wait, so when do you start, well, let's go to you in terms of when you're growing up and you had the theater fail, but was there a point

where visual arts was something that you focused on? Yeah, I was kind of stumbling around it all the time. In high school? Yeah, I was kind of stumbling around it all the time. In high school? Yeah, I was always kind of interested in a million things. Yeah, but you didn't have ADHD.

I didn't, but I do think I've always been attracted to weird people and love making stuff with them or convincing them to finish it or just like a very collaborative. So like, right. I do think there's something. Yeah. Like a track record of all of my friends. But what do you think of yourself? I think, I think I had an overabundance of confidence at times. Oh, really?

Like I was a real, the first time I watched Rushmore, I was like, this isn't that funny. And then like years later I watched it and I was like, that was me. I was a little piece of shit in high school, like flirting with his teachers, like getting in fights with the administrators. Yeah. Too many extracurriculars, tons of self-confidence. I'm going to build an aquarium. Yeah. Right.

So you annoyed adults. Totally. And my classmates. But did you have friends? I did, but I wasn't. Sometimes I wasn't interested in making friends. I was like, I'm here to learn. Oh,

really? Yeah. And then other, you know, it depended on the class, but yeah. So you're both kind of, you have these odd dispositions

that don't, they don't compliment each other until they come together and it makes sense. But then if you don't really start pursuing, you don't do any short films or anything

until you get to college? No, actually, I ended up going to the University of Connecticut for a year. Where's that? New Haven? That's in Storrs, Connecticut. It's in the middle of nowhere. It's like basically-

Is it spelled like a store? S-T-O-R-R. Is it one of those colleges that people that didn't succeed in high school go to? Yeah, basically. It's a party college. It's a party college. That's what it is. But I did not succeed in high school.

So at least one person went that way. So it's sort of like one of those colleges. All through high school, I kind of fucked off. And then I panicked the last year because I realized maybe I do want to go to college. And then by the time I decide that, it's sort of like we got to find one that will take you. Was that that story? This was definitely my. Actually, it was sort of like, we got to find one that'll take you. Yeah. Was that that story? This was definitely my, yeah. Actually, it was the opposite.

I was doing really well. I was a high-functioning person. Oh, you did well. But struggling. It was like everything was- Oh, so grades were fine? Grades were fine, but it's because I actually had gray hair in high school because of how much stress I was- Does that just go away or are you coloring it?

It went away. Weird. Yeah. I had gray hair in high school. I just did not sleep well. I was honestly very depressed but it was because

I was just struggling to get A's because that's what you- It's hard. Yeah, it's hard. And then my last year, I gave up. I was like,

I'm too tired and I got F's and stuff like that on my report card. It completely blew up my college chances. But were your parents concerned? How do you not know you have a mental problem if you're experiencing these signs and stuff?

Your parents didn't send you to doctors and stuff? I mean, no. I mean, immigrant parents don't really have that in their, like— DNA. Yeah, their toolkit. They just suck it up, pull it together? They're just like, hey, you come for me, and if I could do it, then that means you could do it too. Right. It's very much like that. An appendage. And the funny thing about ADHD is like, oftentimes, at least in my generation,

it was the men or the boys who would get diagnosed because they would basically be running around acting up. And like, that's how their, um, that's how their ADHD kind of manifested. Oftentimes in women and little girls, it's a completely different thing where they're kind of quietly suffering. And funnily enough, when I read about women's experience with ADHD, that was my experience as well. I don't understand how it happened that way,

but now a lot of- It's because you're a soy boy. There you go, exactly. I did have, you know, this is what's funny about this. I ate a lot of tofu when I was growing up. So there is something real to this, but I'm a proud soy boy who is now diagnosed with ADHD because, yeah, because I think in a lot of ways I was the quiet suffering kind of person. Oh, wow. But anyways, what ended up happening was I went to UConn.

I thought I was going to go to business school. I was taking accounting. I was taking economics. And I was just miserable. It was like the worst year of my life. I just did not connect with anyone there. I barely made any friends. And, um, and so, and so I spent a year doing this and, uh, I realized, Oh, I, the only thing I can do is watch movies. And so I just watched a movie every night for a year. What was your movies? Who'd you like? Oh, my God. I mean, here's the thing.

I grew up not really educated or film literate in that world. And so I just had to play catch up. I was just watching all the classics. And I was watching all the contemporary stuff at the time. So you found a list? You found a... Yeah. I mean, it was great because at the time, the torrenting wasn't really a thing.

But within college campuses, there was a local network where you could just download things really quickly. So I was just downloading whatever the UConn campus had at the time. Do you remember which one blew your mind? The first one, it's very fun. The first one that actually made me feel like maybe I could become a filmmaker

was actually watching Rian Johnson's Brick. Oh yeah, I just watched that, yeah. Because he did that movie for like i don't know twenty thousand dollars how much i forget how right and it all took place uh you know on the campus of campus it was just so accessible but at the same time if had there was such a specific vision in the tone in the writing in the world did you tell him that i did yes i had i had the chance to tell him that a couple months ago, which was kind of amazing. But after I watched the movie,

I went out and bought it. I went out and found the script. I found the novella he wrote because before he wrote a script, Ryan actually wrote a novella. Yeah. And so I just kind of studied it and I was like,

oh, this, I don't know. If the rest of my life is going to be like what it is here at UConn, I don't want to live. So I might as well take a risk and jump into film school. I'll finally listen to my mom and go to film school. And where'd you end up? Emerson College.

And that's where I met the other Daniel. And your journey to Emerson was just straight out of high school? You didn't have a year off or a bad year at another college? No. Yeah, I went straight in. So you met sophomore year? No, you met my senior year, like close to the end. You're older?

I'm older, but just by one year. Yeah. And we really didn't become close until post-college. I remember Emerson. I mean, I went to BU after I went to the other school. But like I had, I was undergrad for six years, but but I knew a crew like some of my peers like David Cross oh yeah of course

was there and I mean I think Dennis Leary was teaching there and Eddie Brill was teaching there was a stand up

course I took an Eddie Brill class once you did uh huh he came in and did like a little workshop

and I did stand up did a little shtick uh huh we just met Jennifer Coolidge and she was there as well really I don't remember her.

She must have been there around the same time as those guys. John Innes, was it? Emerson? Laura Keitlinger? I don't know how many of them finished, but it was a different... That's what I always like to point out to people, because I hate advertising overpriced film schools, is that there's a bunch of incredible dropouts from Emerson. Oh, totally.

I don't know who finished, really, but I just knew when I was in college, it was basically one building. Yeah. By the time you got, because now there's a, part of it's down on the Commons, right? Yeah. Most of it.

It's all right off the Boston Commons. There are these slick sci-fi buildings that cost a lot of money. Yeah, no, it was like this one old building over off Beacon Street, I think, or Commonwealth. It was right near Kenmore Square,

a couple blocks down. Yeah. Right? Yeah, weird. So you got there when it was high tech. It was mid off Beacon Street, I think, or Commonwealth. It was right near Kenmore Square, a couple blocks down. Yeah. Right? Yeah, weird. So you got there when it was high tech. It was mid-transition. Oh, okay. I was like, my dorm was one of the old ones, and then they were moving everybody into the more expensive ones.

So you were down by Kenmore-ish? I was on like 100 Beacon Street at first. Yeah. And then all of it's off the commons now, I think. It's weird with Boston I never really feel like going back really oh I

I have a soft spot for Boston I really love that city we got to go briefly last year on the publicity tour of this movie and we went on like

a long walk like down well that's nice right yeah I guess because so much of what made it Boston when I was there is gone

totally you know like right cause I'm in the 80s right and Kenmore Square was still this gritty, weird, shitty place. I don't even know if Pizza Pad's there anymore. I don't know Pizza Pad, yeah. That's probably gone. I'm sorry.

It's true. All my favorite places, yeah, are pretty much gone. Yours too? Yeah. Yeah, it's weird, right? They're just erased. So that makes it a little, but it's pretty. It's a pretty town. It is. It's a manageable city, which I love. Yeah. College town.

So when you meet, what is that? What's that moment? Is that depicted in a movie anywhere? Was it like we knew? We knew right away? No. That we would be a genius team? Yeah.

We always say it was the complete opposite where we did like, but it was like very good rom-com material. Oh, yeah. You know, we're like, you know, when they meet, they hate each other. Yeah. Exactly. Lots of judgment. I mean, like we just gave you our backgrounds.

We were just so different in every way. So it's like, it was very hard for us to even imagine being friends. If I was Max Fisher in class,

who were you? Like, who's the like, well, here's the thing. Like, like, I'm sorry.

This is my, everything I'm saying is so like sad and dopey, but like growing up, like I used to, I used to lament the fact that I always felt like a side character

in every movie you know when people were like oh which hero are you I'm like oh I'll just be Robin you know I would never really felt

like the protagonist growing up so it is funny things have changed obviously now but I'm trying to think of a movie like representation matters

yeah exactly that's a big part of it but you're a sophomore he's almost a Matters. Yeah, exactly. That's a big part of it. But you're a sophomore. He's almost a senior. Like why are you in each other's orbit initially? He was a junior. I was a senior. And it was a 3D animation course.

Oh, okay. So it was a class. And the funny thing is we both kind of got kind of turned off by the film program and by film classes. How so? Why? For different reasons, but like... What were yours? Mine was like, I was making tons of movies with my comedy friends.

Who were they? I was in like a couple different comedy troupes. Do I know any of them? Yeah, one of them's called Swollen Monkey Showcase, but we changed it to Swomo. But a bunch of them have come out here and... Sunita knows you guys, right? Exactly.

Sunita was in The Troop With Me. Yeah, she was in Glow. She's great. And she's in that famous video you did. Yeah, so she was there. Anyone else?

Sunita and some of her friends are like Tali Medell and Eleanor Pienta and they're in like a dance comedy troupe. Oh, that's right. They're all like East Coasters. Yeah.

Bunch of comedy writers. Like, I came in right after Dave Horowitz and a bunch of that generation kind of had just graduated my buddy Justin Becker is still out here

writing a bunch of them did you use a lot of them other than have you used people that you went to school with yeah did that work out

a mixed bag they kind of come and go a lot of one of our most famous short films was kind of like co-written and starring like a ton of my college friends.

Interesting Ball is sort of a who's who of like friends. Of Emerson folks. So why did you have a problem with the film program? Yeah, I just – yeah, I didn't like spending a whole semester making one bad movie, which is what – Too traditional. It seemed like – yeah, and like just talking about it. Like, yeah, and like just talking about it. Yeah, I wasn't getting much out of it, and I was getting so much more out of kind of more specific courses and also interdisciplinary classes.

And the internet. So I switched majors. I was like an experimental media major. Oh, that's good. Well, that worked out. Yeah, I mean, I could just take whatever classes I wanted. But like it's interesting when you talk about that. When did you guys graduate? 2010 for me.

2009. Because I have to assume that the shift into realizing that young people could learn almost anything online. How do you teach? Yeah. I mean, it almost seems like they would have to teach in a classical, or a traditional way in terms of references, because that's something that no one is seeking out. Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of, personally, I feel like my favorite style of teaching is more just guiding, you know, it's recognizing the things in your students that they're excited

about and just pointing them in the right direction. One of the things I realized early on going to film school was that while everyone else in my class was sort of competing against each other, I was watching everything online and be like, no, this is my competition. Whoever's on the front page of YouTube, whoever's on the front page of Vimeo, these are the people that I really need to be on the same level. Otherwise I'm not going to be able to survive in this industry. And so I kind of like pulled away from classwork and just started to, yeah, study what was happening online. And I do think it has come true. Like any of those people who I was admiring from afar in college, a lot of them have now

all, you know, built really good careers. So between you pushing back on the traditional nature of how things were being taught and deciding your own curriculum and you competing with YouTube people, the whole world. And he had a similar thing. But his thing was that he just realized he didn't like directing and wanted to just maybe become an animator. You did? Yeah. Because of your social skills or your innate shyness or the undi. You did? Yeah. Because of your social skills or your innate shyness

or the undiagnosed ADHD? Yeah. I mean, a lot of it comes down to just feeling the weight of every crew member. Everyone who says yes to a project of yours, it's a huge responsibility.

And you worry? Yeah, it's incredibly stressful. So do you have like a, is it like an overly, do you take on the concerns that you make up in your head for everybody? Are you like overly empathetic in a way? Like you can't get through a day knowing like, oh, I don't know if that gaffer's happy. I mean.

It depends. Okay. I mean, sometimes it just takes one thing to kind of send me down a spiral. But yeah, I would say. And that's the movie. Yeah. I mean, exactly. I mean, one of the-

Several spirals. Exactly. One of the funny things about this movie is like we put it out in the world and so many different people who have depression or anxiety or have ADHD, even though we never explicitly say any of those words in the film,

they come up to me and say, oh my God, thank you. This is what my brain feels like all the time. But that was unanticipated. It was not the agenda of the movie. But before we get to that, how do you guys decide to pair up? Yeah, so I was intensely collaborative in college, just constantly making stuff with friends. And essentially, we had a summer job that we loved where we were summer camp counselors supervising kids while they make movies.

The two of you? Yeah. There was of you? Yeah. There was a bunch of us. So my friend... So it was an Emerson gig. They reached the campus and said, let's go recruit them.

It was over on like Harvard campus, but it was the New York Film Academy. Okay. And I hate product placing all these organizations I don't really endorse.

Yeah, it's okay. No one's writing them down. Yeah, they keep doing it. I keep meeting kids. They're like, I went to Emerson because of you. And I'm like,

are you okay? How much debt are you in? But it worked out for me. I keep meeting kids. They're like, I went to Emerson because of you. And I'm like, are you okay? How much debt are you in? But it worked out for me. It changed my life. But anyway, we were jealous of the kids and made a short film after work. And then when we put it online, neither of us expected it to go that well. But it got like Vimeo staff picked. So this is when you were camp counselors?

Yeah. And so it kind of like – and there was something about combining visual effects and comedy that worked and that's what it was you know the short was just like a silly like

face swappy VFX-y okay like 30 second joke was there a story to it it was just a joke it's about us playing on a swing set

and then the swing set gets caught mid-air yeah it's called swingers and you're up there and he gets caught up there and then he swings into my face

and we swap faces. It's like... And we scream. The end. Brilliant. There was no thought. But it's sort of about, you know,

it's sort of like autobiographical. Oh, right. It's us becoming each other. Yeah, it's about the origin of Daniels. It's really perfect. There you go.

But literally, we just had a camera and it was 2 a.m. and we came up with the idea on the spot just mostly so I could teach him After Effects because he wanted

to learn After Effects. What are After Effects? It really is autobiographical, you Effects. What are After Effects? It really is autobiographical, you know? What do you mean? It's just like two guys playing around and then they switch bodies. They become each other.

They become one. They become one, yeah. Two guys were just goofing around and then they became one. Oh my God. Origin story. Exactly. Go see it.

Oh my God. Go see the origin story. It's called Swingers and I've never seen Swingers. I still haven't seen them. The movie Swingers. The original, yeah. It's called Swingers, and I've never seen Swingers. I still haven't seen the original. It's our remake of Swingers. And then what was the first steps to collaboration after the origin story? I mean, everything we've ever done is just a series of accidents that put us a little bit closer to our goal of becoming filmmakers.

that put us a little bit closer to our goal of becoming filmmakers. So I think Shiner was bored in L.A. because he had graduated a year earlier, and he was really anxious, and so he wanted to make something. You moved out here, and you got lost, or you just frustrated? I was doing okay, but I didn't like any of my jobs, and then I was just making things on the side, just throwing paint at the wall. This one you were at Tim and Eric? This was after that internship, and I got hired like every once in a while for part-time gigs there.

I liked that a lot, but then I was like a runner at a VFX house where I made tea and filled parking meters. Oh, that's terrible. But it's interesting about Tim and Eric is that, you know, there's something that informs both of your features that is abstract, absurd, you know, something that relies on just commitment to ideas as opposed to narrative. And it's a certain type of mind that can really get into Tim and Eric.

Totally. Because that whole world, and I'm always impressed with it. It does something with not only genres but formats, you know, and it pays a lot of respect to, you know, public access. And just there's a tone to it that moves through a lot of different worlds of media. So, like, it kind of – you grew up loving that then. It was something I discovered late in life, but it, like, broke my brain. Right. I didn't like it at first. And then like, which is the best kind of art where like you, as you learn to love it, you grow and change as a person.

Yes. And so I was like, what's the, wait, but there's no punchline. Right. It's just weird. And that's the joke. Yes. And then once I worked there, I realized that like my hot take on that show is that it's like one of the, it's rare that a comedy show lets the editors make jokes. Yeah.

And with that show, they would just collect material and then let the editors just like do whatever they wanted as long as it made them laugh. Yeah. And so like, instead of being like, Hey, here's the script,

hit the punchlines. Here's the coverage. Right. Like the editors would turn it, would, we would turn it into a completely new thing. And all these people who edited there have gone on to make incredible stuff. Well, they had all that freedom.

And that's, yeah, it's such a different approach to comedy. And were you fans of theirs or were you more animation guy? I was an animation guy. I mean, I loved Tim and Eric, but it was not, it was not quite as a defining discovery for me. Yeah. I, I, I come from animation. Most of my, most of people i i fell in love

with during that time are like yeah indie short film animators yeah one of them you literally fell in love with right yeah i actually i married one of them but yeah but like a lot of those people have now become really like good friends of ours and it's it's it's very cool to see them all do you know one of them actually got nominated for an oscar last year another one has a tv show or used to have a tv show on cartoon network it's like very fun to see um all of them so when do you start working together in terms of making money or getting jobs all right so yeah so um he was bored he wanted to do a music video for fun yeah neither of us had any um interest i know and you came out here and you were like okay let's do it yeah he's like hey i'm doing a music video do you want to help me shoot it you want to help me edit it do you want to help me do you want to be in it do you want to be in it yeah so slowly

the the um responsibility is built up until finally we're like accidentally co-directed it yeah i guess we're co-directing this now what for who it's called f it's called underwear by the band fm belfast which is like a dance band from Iceland. Okay. How'd you get that gig? I made it for free, and I emailed them being like, hey, I'm making a video. Will you post it? And they were like, I guess. That album came out a year and a half ago, but I guess. It was not a gig.

It was basically a fan video. Okay, yeah. But it turned out good and got passed around in these kind of like internet circles. Oh, yeah. And then we got offered to pitch on another band's video, and then they actually hired good and got passed around in these kind of like internet circles. Oh, yeah. And then we got offered to pitch on another band's video and then they actually hired us and paid us.

Yeah. And then you did the famous one? And then, Oh, that was a couple years later. Yeah, that was a few years later. But I wonder, we had a slow motion build up. But you're learning

how to do things. Exactly. You're learning how to work with crews, you're learning how to execute ideas. That was the best film school.

Yeah, because what ended up happening was like the first video was just like us two and one person with a camera. Right. And then the next

video we added a producer and a production designer. Right. And then the next shoot we added, you know, so every single project we

would add a few more people and just kind of learn how it all works like intimately in a way that we could really um understand how to harness the potential of each group position or whatever sure and i feel like that was sort of our our intention moving through the music video world well how to learn

how does the co-directing responsibilities work with you guys i mean what do you know how you you have a dp or cinematographer that you probably have used a lot. Yep, Lark and Sable, yep. And so, what is the,

how do you guys work? It kind of, there's like some generalizations that we have collected, but it also changes project to project and like, the,

my favorite thing to say is that like, just whoever's most passionate to do something takes the lead on that. You know, and then we try to fill in holes. But do you have strengths like obviously animation is where he's coming from right and with you is it about timing or what do you what like what do you both seek the other's advice for when a question comes up about what you're shooting i love like

logistically figuring out how to pull something off right like that's the gag how are we going to do it yeah so like talking to art department and figuring out like the stunt of it all but also like producer brain like trying to crack the puzzle of like this shoot's impossible how are we going to do it in a day and he's about efficiency and pragmatism and yeah and or realism yeah yeah pragmatism yeah you say that's a synonym um and then I feel more aesthetically inclined. I love music. I love animation. I love design.

I was one of the main graphics designers at Emerson when I was there. I was the guy who did all the motion graphics and things like that. And so a lot of that stuff comes from me. But also we've taught each other so much that like there is a lot more overlap. Right. Sure. Like I used to work with actors more and like I like studied acting in school. Yeah.

And then that is not the case now. We totally like share those responsibilities. Yeah. Like. You tell her. I'm not. Sometimes. That's happened maybe once or twice.

We do sort of form relationships with actors and try not to just bombard them with twice the energy. Two directors come and shouting things at you. Right.

But we both really enjoy that part of the process and yeah, so it's not like I'm the actor guy. Right, right. And you have a shorthand

I imagine and you understand there's a bedrock of understanding that goes on set at this point. Yes, yes. And so just walk me through the first feature. Because that sort of sets a tone for you guys in a way in terms of the fact that that is there, but secondary in a way, right? Yeah.

I mean, I think what we realized early on when our manager was putting us, pushing us into all these general meetings around Hollywood was that, um, we didn't belong in some ways. It felt very, um, funny.

We'd go on these first dates with studios and we'd pitch, pitch the ideas that we were interested in and mostly get like blank stares. Was that Swiss Army Man? That became one of our, so we kind of developed this style of pitching crazy things because we got a kick out of them being weirded out. They'd be like, oh, any IP you like? And then we'd just pitch like bonkers things

and like unproducible sequel ideas and stuff. And so Swiss Army Man was like an idea that was genuinely interesting to us, but also one that we just, I got a lot of joy out of making people uncomfortable when I pitched it. What is the one-liner on Swiss Army Man? Like if you were to say this is what this movie is about. Yeah, I mean, in the meeting we'd be like,

oh, we have this movie that starts with a guy stranded on a desert island and he finds a farting corpse and rides it like a jet ski to freedom, but ultimately becomes this journey of identity as this amnesiac corpse learns about life and what that means, and maybe they fall in love. And they were like, I'm sorry, what? And we're like, but he builds all the props out of garbage, and it's acapella music. And it's going to be beautiful though. It's a fart drama and you're going to cry at the end. And, and then they'd be like,

okay, can, are you fucking with me? You know? And we'd be like a little, but then, but then one day one of the producers actually leaned in and said, have you guys written this yet?

Do you actually want to make this? And we're like, yes. And he's like, make it. And, and then make the farting corpse movie. Yeah. And then we had a lot of pushback and a lot of cheerleaders over the years, but

it became, I think we had written a different script before Swiss army man, but that was one that felt like no one else is ever going to make this movie. Oh, you didn't have another script before that? Before that we wrote this one that was kind of like an action comedy, but I was kind of like, it didn't, it was something someone else could have written, you know? Um, and that drives you guys a little bit to do something that never been done before. I mean, one of the things that stuck with me, I forget who told me this, but in film school, at one point I heard the line to be successful. You either have to be the best or you have to be the first. And in my head, I'm like, well, I'm never going to be the best. Might as well go for that second one. Yeah in my head, I'm like, well, I'm never going to be the best, so might as well go

for that second one. It's like getting the Guinness World Record for how many Mentos can you chug on screen with cats around. But what's been really great about that is because we've been finding success with our creativity, we've actually been

slowly practicing and working on our craft. And I'm not saying we are becoming the best, but we are becoming better. And the idea of becoming the best of something at something, um, it doesn't really drive us, but it's fun to see how it's naturally happening. The fact that we're here talking to you now is like really absurd.

Um, in the middle of an awards campaign, it's like hilarious. We were not trying to become the best, but like just the act of just creating over and over and over again. Yeah, and sometimes, you know, cosmic timing is real. Yes, 100%. And, you know, things fall into place.

But like with Swiss Army Man, like all these things that you were just saying, that was actually your conception of it. You didn't backload the philosophical idea of that that you knew that ultimately this was absurd but you were going to be dealing with ideas around self-identity and and and philosophical ideas like that totally it started as like a one-off joke and then that we would never make or you know that would maybe one of maybe be one of our two minute short films that we throw online and then it wasn't until like the amnesia corpse, learning about life concept that we started coming up with like, oh,

we could put everything we're feeling about life in here. We could like talk and, and, and the idea of starting a movie in such a crazy way and then coming at real themes excited us. And so. Cause you guys were young guys and you were dealing with a lot of issues around who you were in the world, I imagine.

Totally. And when we first started writing it, we actually had just done a music video for Tenacious D. And I was such a big fan from childhood. And we were like, what if we wrote this part for Jack Black and he sang it and it was a musical?

How cool would that be? And then as we wrote it, we Jack Black and he sang it and it was a musical, you know, how cool would that be? And then as we wrote it, we're like, uh, we're like, all these themes are about, you know, 20 year olds,

you know, like we had written a script about ourselves on accident about like weird boys who don't feel like they fit into society's expectations. It's so funny because Jack is like a guy that knows exactly who he is. Yeah. Completely. So it was like, it was such a fun inspiration to chase

and then we accidentally made it very personal and then we're like, oh, we need someone, we need a sore boy like us. Well, that's interesting because that's what drives that movie because the comedy in some ways, though it's never been seen before,

it's broad in a way. Totally. No one's ever carried a fart joke that far. You know, but, you know, farts are always reliable. Totally. It's all physical comedy. It's like so much falling down. But because it was so informed by your own search, like there's a humanity to it.

And also the odd nature of how you shot. There's something grotesque and beautiful about you know him writing radcliffe yeah totally so there somehow or another it doesn't come off as shallow or just uh a means to to use these jokes to make these extreme weird jokes totally in some ways like uh i really hated the fact that we were making a movie about farting. It made me so uncomfortable. And because of that,

that kept me up at night most nights. And pulled out all these themes. Yeah, pulled everything else out of it. And so the film becomes a film about shame and what it does to you. And in the end, a lot of what informed the movie was that experience at college, that one year that I was miserable by myself.

So much of that experience kind of just fell into the movie. And so it was, it's almost like we made the movie in spite of the farts. Not because of them. But there's no way, like no matter how you felt about farts, that you were going to let go of that device of using the farting guy as a jet ski. I mean, I would imagine that when there was ever a doubt, you're sort of like, we're not, we have to. That's also what Paul Dano said

was the reason why he said yes. He read the first five pages and said, this is the, I'm going to make this movie. Yeah, he's like, I don't want to see a different, I don't want to see another actor do that. I'm going to be so jealous. But as a writer, it was like we dug ourselves into this impossible hole by starting the movie from there.

Yeah. And then it was kind of like it forced us to learn and try hard and write drafts because we were like, we got to get out of this hole. Uh-oh, we started that movie. Why did we do this? Do you think when you're doing rewrites like that, is it bit to bit or are you thinking about the whole movie always? Do you know what I mean? Is it bit to bit or are you thinking about the whole movie always? Do you know what I mean?

Because I can see in the new movie and in that movie that there are bits that are pieces that you have to execute because the comedy is so big and choreographed. So are you thinking in terms of story or are you thinking in terms of like, well, this bit's a problem? Yeah. All of the above. We kind of have to bounce back and forth often. Yeah. I love thinking big structure and thinking about

what we're trying to do overall. Right. That feels really important for both of these movies that we've done. But that gets exhausting and the thing that really gets you excited

are the bits. Right. And so you collect a bucket of bits while you're working on the backbone of the film and if you're lucky, the bits while you're working on the backbone of the film and if you're lucky

the bits start to fall into place that's not always the case but you have a lot of surplus bits oh yeah always so many

now did some bits from the Swiss Army Man make it into everything everywhere that's a good question I wonder if any did not that come to mind

but I mean Rack of Cooney I mean but that's just more just a Rat if any did not that come to mind but I mean Racka Cooney I mean but that's just more just a Ratatouille joke but we did have like pulling on hair weird kind of there's a lot of body humor

yeah in both obviously but yeah a lot of them we just never made or sometimes we try to sneak them into short form content

and stuff so I mean Swiss Army Man puts you on the map right and people were like well this is weird and good some people sneak them into short form content and stuff. So, I mean, Swiss Army Man puts you on the map, right? And people were like, well, this is weird and good. Some people.

It put us on a new map, you know, because we had been in this kind of commercial music video world. Right. And it definitely suddenly kind of like shifted us over into like a world where people were like. So that one video, the one for the falling through the ceiling. Turn Down For What? Yeah, turn down for what? You're not a DJ Snake fan?

You don't know him by name? I'm just old. No, I'm, yeah. But it's a great name. You should really remember it. DJ Snake? No, he's so weird. Yeah, but I mean,

it was one of those things where it clearly, whatever the song implied, it didn't matter. You know, you just created this energy that you kind of blew up. There was a sort of a beautiful violence to the whole thing on all levels. Totally. And people love it. Yeah.

It was kind of like we heard the song and it's called Turn Down For What? And then it's about like not turning down for anything. Yeah. And so we sort of just like we had been working on a screenplay and we were just like, what if we just let our id go? What's the most like unhinged just id thing? Because that felt like the assignment from the song. Yeah. And there was something so unexpectedly thrilling about doing that as a filmmaker and turns out as an audience to just see like this is just unhinged for, yeah.

But also challenging yourself to do that, you know, pays off in the movies. I mean, for whatever, for you just to say, let's do an id thing and then push the envelope, you know, with all this sexuality and violence and weirdness and contortions.

I mean, it must've been exciting for the actors to just cut loose like that. Oh yeah. But it also sort of gives you a parameter to work with them. Like if we've done that successfully, then you can sort of do anything, right? It totally got Swiss Ironman financed because, like, you know, financiers would be like, this script sounds insane on paper, but your last music video was a hit, and it also is insane. So I guess people like this stuff, you know?

But that has always been the case. Everything we've done, I always, you know, like, uh, but that has always been the case. Everything we've done, I always, you know, like helped the next thing get made. Yeah. It helps the next thing get made. But my, my mother has to go through this journey where she's like, why did you make this thing? It's so weird. And like, what did you do? And then she watches the, you know, general consensus form and people like it, you know, like turned down for what the first thing she said to me after watching it was like, Daniel, I think you need to read more books, you know like turned down for what the first thing she said to me after watching it was like daniel i think you need to read more books you know um but then you know a year later we're at the grammys because it got nominated for a grammy and so i know my mother's like just having to just completely contort her vision of what the world is what art is what what what who i am as a

filmmaker interesting um and and and so that's been really fun to watch as a journey is watching the world figure out how to what to do with the world through your mother yeah yeah now how does does your mother factor into everything everywhere all at once i mean completely yeah this do we do we want to get into it sure but i mean it just seems like that like that relate that dynamic oh totally yeah we we realized get into it? Sure. I mean, it just seems like that dynamic. Oh, totally. Yeah. We realized while writing it that, like, the character of Jobu, the kind of villain, is, like, the character version of all of our movies.

Yeah. You know? And that Evelyn is our parents. Yeah. And it's just, like, this is this weird, unhinged thing. And then the parent is, like, what? Why? What is wrong with you? Why is my daughter like this? What are you doing? You know? Yeah. And it's just like, this is this weird unhinged thing. And then the parent is like, what? Why? What is wrong with you?

What are you doing? You know, like she is the weird music video. She's the part of, she's an archetype of you guys. Exactly.

Especially our work, which tends to be our weirdest version of ourself that we're like, this is in me, you know? Yeah,

but it's like every parent's nightmare to see their kid go out into the world and represent things until they explode. And just represent something that they did not think was a part of them. Yeah. Like, you know, my dad actually showed,

turned out for what, to his coworkers and they were like, are you embarrassed? Are you, you know, and like, so grappling with those ideas, the movie is a movie about our parents in some small ways, learning to expand their minds to be able to include all of the messy, unexpected parts of us.

And about the kid learning to give the parents some space and grace and being like, it's not easy. But this is the story. Like what you start with, with this movie is there is a story there and it's pretty basic about you know parents and kids and about the strain that parents

relationships go through male and female you know roles and then the immigrant experience like you could if you pitched a movie

without any of what you guys do they'd be like well that sounds like an interesting emotional movie totally maybe we'll do that on the next one

I mean people ask us like how did you pitch everything everywhere and we're like this is pretty easy yeah you know because we were like we're like hey we're the farting corpse guys this one's about um a uh mom going on an action adventure story and learning to love her family they're like oh my god that sounds marketable yeah thank god you you got over the farting weirdness. And then we're like, oh, just wait. This time it just takes a little longer and then things go in butts.

I think we realized the film was going to be about just generation gaps in general. Every generation has to deal with it. But what makes this generation gap between millennials and boomers so unique within the context of history is the fact that millennials are the first generation to grow up on the internet. Yeah.

And for it to have parents not understand what it was like to be able to just accidentally fall into all sorts of awful, terrible things when you're 10 years old. Yeah. And the effect that might have on you growing up, that is a very bizarre generation gap. And we realized the multiverse was a really good place for us to explore that. Well, also what's interesting too, and I'm just thinking about this now because I had

a conversation with my producer yesterday just about that generation is now becoming adverse to emotions. That when they use words like cringe or awkward, that it's really in reaction to vulnerability. So there's a guardedness that's happening around engaging in true emotional vulnerability that's a little disconcerting. And I think that there is something to that in the movie that what you come around to is acceptance

and real vulnerability on both parts, right? Totally, yeah. Reflecting on the cringe thing is interesting because when you live your life online and in social circles for the most part, especially ones that are driven by algorithms, there is no grace for any mistakes. So that is, I think that is why people are so guarded. And that's why people like when you, when you watch someone else make a mistake online, you feel their feel and you realize i never want that to happen to me and so suddenly you have a whole generation of people who are fearful of looking like they made a mistake

or fearful of being the cringe person online it's like it's problem it's a how they can exist in relationship exactly without how are they going to identify evolving vulnerability? How do you grow as a person if you're just transferring the possibility of your own mistakes onto somebody it actually happens to and you live in fear of that? How do you develop? You have to listen to your podcast, WTF. I do think like on the other side, like the, you know, the internet has started to celebrate mental health and vulnerability in these ways that are like, oh, cool. Like, like I sometimes wonder if like, yeah, millennials are going to be the jaded ones, but the kids are actually going to be like vulnerable as hell. And like, just thinking about like with our movie, I, you know, we never expected the thing that would go viral with kids would be selfies of them crying. Yeah.

But like on TikTok, people would post selfies of like how much they cried at our movie. And that was the thing that they'd share. And I was like, whoa, I thought they'd be talking about, you know. Yeah, that was the thing that sold tickets because then someone would be like, oh, why is everyone crying at this movie? I got to go watch this movie too it gives them permission to have the emotions that they're usually

ashamed of I guess maybe it's really cool but I thought it was beautiful I was like oh my god that's so cool I thought we had to sneak the emotion

in there but the emotion became the thing the selling point well that's interesting because it's not like no one's at risk like if somebody shares it like this

thing made me do this and then everyone's sort of like well I kind of want to do that if it's safe to do it. Yeah, totally. Yeah. But if you didn't cry, that's fine too. Yeah. Some people, you know.

I cry at everything. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know why that happens, but it's, I don't know if it's always kind of like that though. Do you know what I mean? It doesn't take much. I love that.

So at the core of this, tell me about casting. I'm sure you've gone over it, but I just talked to Michelle two days ago. No way. Yeah. How was it? Great. I haven't heard it yet, obviously. I didn't put it up yet.

Yeah. In order to hear it, we'd have to sit here together and do it. Right. But she's amazing. Yeah. Did she roast us? No, she loves you. Oh, man.

She's not doing any roasting. Maybe after. Yeah, exactly. We'll see what happens. But there's no roasting going on. But it was just, we really went all the way back with her and her experience. But how did you cast her? I mean, when we first started writing this movie, we knew it was going to be about a Chinese family.

And so we just asked ourselves selfishly, if we could have anyone play the mother and the husband. Right. Our first picks were Jackie Chan and Michelle Yeoh. Yeah. Okay, so she was always in there. Totally. And we started re-watching their movies. As the supporting character.

Originally, she was going to be the Wayman's character, if that makes sense. But long story short, we just fell in love with the idea of it being about her. We ended up centering it on her. It was going to be

the man story. What? It was going to be the husband story. No kidding. But like the first draft, I like to say it was like, kind of like,

just like an obvious action comedy of like a guy bumbling on an adventure. Okay. You know, and then it, it wasn't until it was like

centered on Michelle that the whole family dynamic clicked. The mother-daughter thing? Right. And then it wasn't until it was like centered on Michelle that the whole family dynamic clicked, the mother-daughter thing. Right, and his struggle with masculinity and his identity.

It suddenly was like a movie I hadn't seen before and before that it was just like, you know, like a guy going on a misadventure, you know,

but it kind of took this. Against character. Yeah. Yeah. But yeah, so casting was just like we always dreamed it was her. We were terrified what she'd say if she, if she didn't like it.

Uh, like what we would do if she didn't like it. She was also up for it physically. I mean, she could do that stuff. Totally. Which was another huge thing was like, honestly, who else could have done all of that? I don't know. I don't know. Yeah.

No, but there isn't anybody. Exactly. Right. And we didn't want to do an action movie where, you know, stunt doubles do all the fun stuff. Sure. And so we, yeah, she was the very first person we cast and she was, by some miracle, like excited about it. I mean, I think she saw in it that this was a role that she doesn't get offered every day, that she could show that she has more skills than people know. And for us, when we first met her, we found out that she had a weirder sense of humor than we expected.

And we were like, oh, what a miracle. Great. Oh, she's seen a lot, dude. Exactly. But I think we had this mental image of a fancy lady would be upset by some of our jokes. And she just was like, let's talk about Deadpool. These jokes are so weird.

And that was just an ideal thing. It's interesting because in this, you know, in dealing with the immigrant experience, specifically Chinese, to use somebody, you know, on a meta level of her, you know, status and the way she's seen by the world, especially the Asian world, is sort of like great. It's incredible. To sort of transform her. And then like you've got James Hong, who every, like in terms of American film and the Chinese experience or what we grew up with, it's like, hey, there's that guy.

Yeah, he's the one and only face that has somehow lasted the entire, almost the entire span of cinematic history. Like he's been working since the 40s or 50s. Wasn't he, right, but wasn't he, he was in Chinatown. Yeah.

He's in, he likes to say he was in 600 TV, film, and video game credits. Is that true?

Yeah, like 600. It's unreal. That's crazy. He's in Airplane, Blade Runner, Chinatown, Wayne's World, Big Trouble, Kung Fu Panda. Oh, he's in The In-Laws.

Oh, now we can just sit here and go through his. I know. Just scrub through it, man. Back to the whole episode. Honestly, you should bring him on. I don't know. Oh, my God. That would kind of be amazing, wouldn't it?

Yeah, it was wild to kind of see, to meet him, and you just instantly could tell, like, this guy hustles. He's been hustling for 60, 70 years. Yeah, but also like, you know, what it means like in the sort of meta way on how people look at film and look at Asians and look at, you know, the sort of core story. Yeah. That's not just a family story. It's an immigrant story. Totally. Right?

And then getting Kwan. How do you say it? Yeah, Kikwe Kwan. Kikwe Kwan. Kikwe Kwan. Yeah. You know, that guy is sort of like in all of our hearts,

right? You know, Raiders of the Lost Ark, was he in the first one? Second one. Yeah, he was in Temple of Doom.

And then like all of a sudden this amazing story, like that guy's, you know, so there's something about film and there's something about, you know,

family and there's something about, you know, that's dug in to the Chinese American story. Completely. Yeah, the meta, that's dug into the Chinese American story. Completely. Yeah. The, the meta narrative of the casting was never intentional, but with every person we found that just happened to be their life story, a story of being overlooked or underappreciated in different ways. Um, but at, at, I was looking over my, my journals the other

day, just trying to remember, you know, what we were thinking when we were making this movie. And one of the things I wrote was just this idea like, oh, if we could make a movie that made it so anytime you walked into a laundromat and you saw like a middle-aged immigrant working there, you would immediately just think of just the abundance of potential or life that exists in that human. Because I think originally in the movie, we wanted Michelle Yeoh because it was, it would be really funny if you see her and she's kind of living this very difficult life, struggling through trying to find the American dream. And then you jump to another universe and she's literally Michelle Yeoh.

And there was a version i'm glad we didn't go this way but there was a version of the movie where every actor was going to have their real name so jamie lee carter's name is jamie well then you get into sort of that uh uh the um john malkovich movie exactly yeah but the idea is supposed to be just like any of the people that that you are surrounded with every day when you're walking through the streets or driving to the store any of those people in their life could be just the most important person in the world or just the most talented person in the world. It's about like looking at the potential inside of people. And so the meta narrative of the casting was, like I said, not intentional with all the other characters, but with Michelle, that was kind of the goal.

Right. I said not intentional with all the other characters, but with Michelle, that was kind of the goal. Right. But this multiverse thing, like, obviously, it's a great device. Yeah. But as a philosophical, do you believe it? I kind of do.

You do? Because I have these weird dreams. Do you ever get, like, in waking consciousness, where you're kind of half awake, but you're living an entirely different life in that dream. Like you have responsibilities and, you know, different pets and everything. Like there is this little world in waking consciousness,

consciousness where I'm like, that must be the other Mark because they're never, they're never dynamic things. It's just another relatively mundane existence. Right. But he likes dogs, not cats. Yeah.

Something like that. Weird. Right. Yeah. I mean, I I'm, we're also big into neuroscience, so that just makes me think about like I'm just fascinated with how brains work and the fact that like your lived experience right now is just like a predictive model that your brain is just constantly kind of predicting and updating based on like little inputs.

And so like, of course, as you dream, it would just start to predict other random stuff. Right. But that doesn't still mean, but then, but without getting into the sort of like, of course, as you dream, it would just start to predict other random stuff. Right. But that doesn't still mean, but then, but without getting into this sort of like, well, what is reality business, which I just can't even fucking do that. Let's go. Why not? No, I don't. We got a couple more hours, right?

Yeah. But I see like there's critics, like you're giving critics the opportunity to throw around words like nihilism, existentialism, absurdism. And, and, and I have to assume that you, did you guys have discussions where it's like, this is nihilism versus existentialism? Yeah, completely. Yeah, and we were a little scared of like, oh, my God, we're so underqualified. But also like there's something exciting about getting audiences to like chew on something juicy.

Yeah, for sure. something exciting about getting audiences to like chew on something juicy. Yeah. Kind of scary. Oh, for sure. I mean, I think a lot of it comes down to the fact that I used to be basically a fundamentalist Christian. You know, I believe that the Bible was the word of God and everything was true. And to live like that for most of your life, like I basically fell off around. Meeting me.

The second half of college yeah exactly exactly but I really didn't try to I didn't try to but you know to have a guy to have all of that pulled away from me was terrifying and destabilizing and I spent you know I'm the rest of my life I'm still going through it I think just trying to figure out trying to figure out what do I truly believe? But specifically with this movie, I found myself really grateful for the realization that maybe nothing has inherent meaning.

And I was like, oh, this is interesting. It is existentialism. Some people call it an optimistic nihilism or whatever. I was like, this will be a fun challenge for us is if we can start a movie where the main character is terrified of the idea of nihilism that there is no inherent meaning anything right and so when her daughter says it she's like oh no you've become evil this is bad I gotta save you and then for by the end of the film for her to realize oh there's something

incredibly freeing about this because now I'm not hung up by all these definitions and rules and labels. And instead I can just see you as my daughter, you know, there's something very freeing about having all that shaken away. So you can just look at the reality for what it is in that moment. Interesting. And so that becomes the way that the barrier between the two of them is kind of, if it's lifted. Well, it's interesting because, like, you know, having grown up with that discipline and that kind of brainwashing,

like, I didn't grow up like that. So I realized that what's even weirder is if you don't have religion or you don't have, you know, a structure dictating what is right and wrong in terms of how you're supposed to live your life, you kind of self-generate it. And so when you see yourself in routines, you realize, like, there's no one dictating this but me and my fear. So how do I break out of this dumb thing I'm doing just because I'm afraid to let in something else? And is this something that you were able to vocalize even from a young age,

being someone who didn't have, like, anything? No, I was just uncomfortable, and I always thought that, and I always thought that everyone else had it figured out but me, and that I was always sort of awkward, so I became funny guy out of reflex. But I can't imagine the brain fuck of fundamental Christianity to be terrified on that level and to have that as, well, this is how you're going to not go to hell? Yeah, oh, it's terrifying you're going to not go to hell? Yeah. Oh, it's terrifying. It definitely fucked with me.

And your parents are still in? Yeah. I mean, my mother was always in and my father was actually an atheist. So that was- Thank God you had a little balance. Yeah. I do think that like-

The funny thing about that was like, as a kid, that really messes with you because every day you're sitting at dinner and you're like, if I don't save my dad, if I don't save my dad if i don't save my dad you know so if you're so as that becomes part of your agenda i gotta save my dad exactly and and if you don't you fail him because god put you on this earth to save him yeah and so it's the whole thing as a kid it was like

if you want to know why i had white hairs growing up and why i was always anxious and why i was always it's a lot of responsibility it always, it's a lot of responsibility. It's a lot of things, but it's the Christianity thing. It's being the kid of an immigrant. It's the mental health thing. I was like, yeah, I had suicidal ideation. It was just like, I don't know how I survived high school. I was so miserable.

But anyways, like you're better at asking for help now. Like when you're certain in a low place? I am better, but that's only because I was so bad at it before. Totally. I have a lot of room for improvement. We were working together

as you lost your faith and we only talked about it through the work. Yeah. It wasn't like you were like, hey man, I'm really spiraling. Well, that's the interesting

thing about art though because I dated a painter for years who was a dark-minded person, but she would paint very bright, beautiful things almost as an antidepressant so I would imagine that the appeal of animation and having that kind of control to make things that made you feel good and took you out of the fear and you know that there's something almost antidepressant about the nature of that definitely definitely it is. It is a, filmmaking is incredible

because you are, you're playing God for a second. You know, you're, for a moment, you're pretending that you actually

are able to fight entropy and chaos and organize it into something and it's very, it can be very empowering. Well, that's what this movie's about

because you really let entropy and chaos kind of reign. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And then bring it all back to like you know they're going to be okay these two exactly yeah good job fellas it just makes me think like like people listening you know you can ask for help or like or make a little art and

explore it but like don't just bottle it up and you're not alone yeah and don't be afraid of vulnerability yeah man but why didn't you tell him you were spiraling? That's just not my style. It's funny. You're going to suffer alone. Even as we both do therapy, we still don't. We still mostly talk about things through the word.

Do you go through to filmmakers' couple counseling? We've talked about it. Oh, that'd be funny. Do those exist? Is there someone out there? I don't think anything, you dictate what a couple is.

That's true. You can go. That's right. Totally. I've talked about it a lot. Yeah, I couple is. That's true. You can go. That's right. Totally. I've talked about it a lot. And I, yeah, I always joke that it's like we're work married. Yeah. Well, you are.

I was just in therapy this morning and learning about this, like, I have this homework to do this worksheet with my partner. And I was like, oh, man, I want to do this worksheet with Dan, too. You can. Yeah. It sounds great. Yeah. That'd be interesting. Yeah.

Yeah. Well, I'll keep you posted. You might as well do it now before you guys'd be interesting. Yeah. Yeah, well. You up for it? I'll keep you posted. You might as well do it now before you guys get to that point where you're like, I'm going to do my own movie. There's this worksheet that I guess Brene Brown invented. Oh, yeah, Brene Brown. But you know the one, the worksheet I already showed you and John? Yeah.

Where you just go through this list of 100 values. Yeah. And then you pick the two that mean the most to you. Yeah. And it's just a way to kind of like figure out like, oh, where's my center? And there's something so insightful about asking someone to pick these two and being like, oh, that's what you care about? You know?

Oh. Oh, like your largest value is fun and friendship. You know, like, whoa. Or my biggest value is like, you know, whatever. Stewardship is what our producer picked. And I was like, what does stewardship mean? You nerd. Trying to be vulnerable and you make fun of him.

And then he explained it to me and it was genuinely insightful and kind of beautiful. The sensitive bully. Yeah. That is definitely his role. Totally. Yeah. Tough love. I love like teasing people I love.

But like it actually was like, oh my God, that's the perfect value for a producer. Yeah. Holy shit. I'm so lucky I met a steward. Holy cow. It's nice to have a steward in your life occasionally. Of course. Yeah.

But the homework is to then pick a lot of them, figure out which ones you share, which ones you don't share. Yeah. Because, like, yeah, it's really. I love her. I interviewed her. I remember seeing her TED Talk, and I didn't even know what I was feeling. But I'm like, she has all the answers. No way.

And I was so, when I interviewed her, I was like out of my mind. Yeah, that's amazing. Did you get all the answers you wanted? Have you figured out life? No, what I got was, and I didn't realize because my nature, especially with people that impress me, is I idealize them. Of course. And part of the experience of doing this podcast is

realizing, she's another person. Barack Obama's boring. Yeah, he's just some guy. But the fact that Brene Brown was just sort of this Texan kind of party girl in college. I was like, no, you've always

been an emotional genius. Yeah. So that was, I love that part. I love that. That's so funny. Totally. Well,

great, it was great talking to you guys and I, you know, just the fact that you are where you are is, must be an amazing feeling

but I do hope you win something. We've already, the fact that we, yeah, that we are where we are is so surreal. We've already won too much. I'm looking forward to seeing you at the thing on the television.

Oh, my God. Thank you so much, Mark. Yeah, thanks for talking. You'll get to see me have a panic attack live on TV. That'd be great. Which one of you is going to do that? Me. Okay, good.

You got one coming. Uh-huh. There you go. Huh? That was fun. I like when they started learning things about each other there at the end. That's always great when I have two guests and when that happens. Everything Everywhere All at Once is available to buy or rent on digital platforms and is streaming on Showtime.

Hang out for a second, people. Please hang out. Hang out for a second, people. Please hang out. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer.

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