WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1418 - Jason Woliner / Ashley Barnhill

Episode Date: March 16, 2023

First up in this two-for-one episode, Marc talks with comedian Ashely Barnhill, who used to work for WTF while she was building her comedy career. Suddenly, a tragic accident had her fighting for her life. They talk about Ashley’s road back. Next, director Jason Woliner returns to talk about his 10-year-long project, Paul T. Goldman. Marc tries to find out what Jason was getting at with this reality-bending series and whether there were any lasting repercussions. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Lock the gates! all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening how's it going out there i'm not at home i'm in a hotel room. I'm in New York City, where it's a bit colder than I anticipated and did not pack properly in terms of warm shit.

But I'm all right. It snowed a little bit, and now it's very clear and pretty and windy as fuck and chilly. Not complaining. Happy to be in New York. I start shooting today. I'm doing a couple of scenes in a Christmas movie. I know when you think of me and sort of who I am and what I do, a lot of times Christmas movie is probably in the top five of the list, right?

When you think Marc Maron, top five things I associate with Mark Maron, Christmas movie right up there. Steve, is Christmas movie up there? No, but I'm doing it because Melissa McCarthy's in it and they wanted me to do it. And it's only a few days of work and why not lighten it up? Huh? Why not lighten it up? But let me just say that today on the show, my old production assistant, Ashley Barnhill, is going to be one of the guests. She worked for me, for the show, for us in 2011. And then again in 2014 and 2015, she toured with me a bit. She opened for me a bit. During those years, she was developing her comedy career. She started doing some shows, touring with me. She was on Drunk History.

I believe she was on Project Greenlight. She was on my show Marin. She started opening for Dave Chappelle. Things were going well. And then she was in a tragic accident and had to get a new skull. Horrible. And I remember finding out about it. I had no idea.

It was just horrible. But she's back. She's got a new skull. And we're going to talk about it, how she's handling it personally, how she's handling it in her material. So that's that conversation. And then after Ashley, I talked to director Jason Wallner, who was on the show back in 2013, episode 455.

And back then, he was fresh off of doing the Human Giants show for MTV and a bunch of things for like Adult Swim. Since then, he's directed the second borat movie and the mini series he spent 10 years making called paul t goldman now i know i've been telling you guys to watch it and i don't know how that went for you how'd it go for you with the paul t goldman did you did you watch it i don't know if you've been listening to the bonus content but brendan and i did a a big episode on american movie uh which walner talks about as one of the sources or inspirations or a movie that uh kind of had an effect on him in making paul t goldman it was great to watch American Movie again. It was great to talk about it with Brendan who I didn't realize was so fucking excited

about it. But it seems that it's one of our favorite movies ever. But this Goldman business, I'm really curious to know what you guys thought about Paul T. Goldman. I didn't know what to make of it to be honest

with you. I'm not great with the sort of cringey humor stuff. I don't love prank shows. I don't like when people are vulnerable in a way that makes them tragic to me and they are sort of being presented as comedic to me. And they are sort of being presented. As comedic fodder. I'm not saying that Jason didn't handle. The situation with a certain amount of empathy. For all the people in his movie.

I thought it had a lot to say about acting in general. About TV acting in general. And about the effect that television has on creativity. And many other things. It was just very provocative and very uncomfortable, but I was excited to talk to Jason about it. So look, I guess I haven't talked to you since the Oscars. And I have to admit that I did sort of a weird diva thing here at the hotel the night of the Oscars. I kind of couldn't believe I did sort of a weird diva thing here at the hotel the night of the Oscars. I kind of couldn't believe I did it, but I will come clean about it. You know, I got here early enough to watch the Oscars, which I was excited to do because I like the Oscars.

And the past few years have been not great, you know, with or without, you know, Chris getting smacked. It was not they just were not great shows. But the last time that Jimmy Kimmel hosted, I thought was pretty good. And I just wanted to feel how the the ceremony of it went because it could get so tedious. And this I guess this year was even longer just by a few minutes. But I wanted to see how the humor was handled. I like seeing, I had,

there was, I had a bunch of guests on the show that were, that won Oscars. They were just at my house within the last few months. And it was kind of great. You know, I don't know that I'm ever going to be on the Oscars as, as anything,

but I, I do, I did want to bring attention to the fact that my back played prominently in the Oscars in a clip of Andrea when they announced her nomination you could see her talking to me and see my slightly hunched back and I was proud of that

I think it had a big effect I think it's good for me to get out there as a presence in a film that you can't see his face. But it was nice. I was happy to make an appearance on the Oscars. But I did think that the whole thing went kind of well. I enjoyed the jokes. I enjoyed the presenting.

The pace was good. I'm glad that they included all those other categories that they hadn't been. I thought Jimmy kept it going at a pretty good clip. There were some funny moments, some touching moments. I don't really – I don't want to make it sound like I give that big of a shit. I don't think it's that important to culture and I don't think it's – I don't think it's that important in general. But I grew up with it and I like looking at movie stars and I've talked about this before, even though I sat across from

many of them in my garage, face-to-face talking to them, I still like seeing them all dressed up on TV and being gracious and taking the hit they lose and, uh, and being excited when they win. There were some beautiful speeches. I never heard anything like what Daniel Kwan said in the acceptance speech where he says he's got a kid who's not old enough to take in what's happening. But he said, if you ever get older, basically, I'm paraphrasing, and you're watching this, don't compare yourself against this. Don't judge yourself against this. Don't judge yourself against this, that this is something you need to do because this isn't normal. And then he said, it's crazy. This is crazy. And I thought that was a pretty beautiful sentiment. Don't try to compare yourself against this in light of it. It's not normal and it's crazy. I thought that was pretty honest. Didn't you? Oh, but I

didn't tell you why I'm embarrassed. Right. So I get here, and I'm watching it. Everything's going great. I settle into my room. I ordered some vegetarian Chinese food. I'm ready for the evening here by myself in my room. I'm watching the Oscars, and then my TV goes out in the middle of the live broadcast. And I just really set my expectations on, hey, man, I made it to New York in time. I got food ordered. I'm in. I'm going to do it. I'm going to hang out and enjoy this Oscar show. And then my TV goes out. And I call up the front desk. I'm like, my TV just went out the oscars are on what am i gonna do it's live i did everyone's tv go out and she's like no we haven't heard from anybody else

i'm like then why is why why is this happening to me and she said we'll send a guy up i'm like but i'm missing the oscars and the guy comes up the engineer he couldn't fix it i turned it on turn it off and i'm like what am i and i just i i'm, I'm not proud of this, but I had a little bit of a meltdown. Not horrible. I wasn't abusive, really, but I got back on the phone, and I said, basically, is there another room that I can watch the Oscars in, please? I want to watch the Oscars. They're happening live, and that's why I came early.

I want to watch them. It's so, I'm embarrassed. And she called me back and she said, yeah, we'll put you in another. You don't want to change rooms. No, I got a nice room. She goes, well, we'll put you in another room to watch the Oscars. And then the engineer else try to fix the problem. So they actually put me in some other room by myself so I could just sit there without my Chinese food. And I didn't want to mess up the room just watching the Oscars by myself in this tiny room in the dark. And just to sit there and meditate on my embarrassing behavior. I couldn't quite figure out how to watch them on my computer.

That was the other moment. It was the old man moment of it. Where I'm like, there's got to be a way to watch on my computer. Then I get a call in the room that I'm watching by myself in the dark. That's not my room. I drank a soda there. Felt bad about it. But I'm sure they're going to clean it a little bit, right?

You know, kind of put the, I really felt like I had to rearrange the room before I left. I better move this chair back beneath the table. But yeah, so I was able to go back up to my room where they replaced the television. And then I'll be honest with you. I had to call down to the front desk and apologize to the woman who worked there and say, look, you know, I might have been a little irate. And if I came off as angry or too intense, I apologize. I just wanted to watch the dumb Oscars. And I appreciate your help. I can't watch the fucking Oscars. What am I supposed to do? I can't watch the Oscars. I'm in a room. I can't watch the fucking Oscars. What am I supposed to do? I can't watch the Oscars.

I'm in a room. I can't watch the fucking Oscars. That was an impression of me. I didn't really tell you about that part. I mean, is there another room I can fucking watch the Oscars in? I did a little of that. There was a little of that happening. And yeah, not proud. All right, so listen. This is a conversation I have with my old production assistant, Ashley Barnhill, who also opened for me. As I mentioned earlier, she was in a horrible accident. She was run over by a car. And now she's back, putting her life together with her new skull. You can check out what she's up to at ashleybarnhill.com. And she's got some UK and Edinburgh dates. They're

forthcoming. This is me talking to Ashley Barnhill. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly

regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that an epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by james clavelle to show your true heart just to risk

your life when i die here you'll never leave japan alive fx's shogun a new original series streaming february 27th exclusively on dis Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Why, are you nervous? Well, isn't everybody? I don't know. You know, no one tells, you know, some people are, I guess. But, you know, you were there at the beginning.

I was trying to remember Brandon seems to think that you stopped working for me in 2015 but then you toured with me in 2015 yes I think it was like 2010 per year and then I went back to Texas for a year then I came back right and was in LA and yeah wow podcast Marin and then we went touring. That's right. So I want to go like how, like I didn't know what to expect. How, how are you? How the fuck does anyone answer that question? I hate that question.

It's like, oh, are you good? Is everyone fucking good? Yeah, I know. I know. But I mean like I didn't even, well, let's go back. So you came out here because you're doing comedy again, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And how's it going? I don't know. It's go back. So you came out here because you're doing comedy again, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And how's it going?

I don't know. It's fucking comedy. You just do it because you feel like you should. You love it when you're on stage. You're not excited about it. I'm like, why the fuck do I do this? Yeah. And you're in Texas?

You're in Austin? Yeah. Even though I've kind of, the past year or so, been part-time between there and London. Really? Yeah. I'm sad I missed you. That's right. The day you were there.

I did two shows there. What's in Londonondon how did that happen i know people asking that i'm just like i think i just wanted a big change oh you don't got it like a dude or something no people ask that like i saw eden edwards the other day just like a poor boy i was like i wish like that would be a little bit more yeah it's lonely right moving to a new big city but um no the british men are they're they're a piece of fucking work. Yeah? Yeah, because I feel like in America, you know, guys will like shoot their shot. And in London, they're just, ugh, they're such work.

They keep, oh, they don't shoot their shot? I think because they're kind of just innately such gentlemen and they're really scared of rejection. I don't know. I quit trying to understand it. But you just picked London randomly? Did you, were there comics there that you liked? No, I didn't really. I quit trying to understand it. But you just picked London randomly? Were there comics there that you liked? No, I didn't really know anyone there. I think I had a couple of friends there.

I mean, well, I hadn't left the country before 2020, right before COVID, because I did London with Dave, and I really liked it. And I've been writing a TV series, because I really love the TV world and writing. Yeah. Because it feels kind of like a more group. Everyone's working on a musical. Yeah. I just really love writing.

I'm paired with a London production company out there. Oh, yeah? Yeah. So you're working on a show? We're working. Brits are really, really slow. Yeah. Everything's slow.

Yeah. But if you're working and you're making something, it's good. Yeah, yeah. I hope that's a goal. So let's go back and lead up to this because when I heard about

the accident, it was already behind you like a year, I feel like. I think it was only six months past that and I still didn't have a full skull then.

I know. Don't take for granted having a full skull. I've learned. Oh, my God. But let's track it, because I remember. So when you came out here, and you came out here to do comedy? Well, I think initially I came out here, just I'd never been out here. Yeah. And I was in law school.

Oh, that's right. Yeah. You were in law school in Texas. Yeah. Was your dad a lawyer? Yeah. Right. And isn't your sister like a doctor or a lawyer?

My older sister's a doctor. Right. My younger sister's a nurse. So I'm very lucky for that. Yeah. That turned out to be the best connections you had. Yeah. The nepotism didn't work out quite the way you thought it would.

No. But yeah, I really tested my sister's nursing skills, even though she'd already been tested for a long time. Oh, my God. Because, all right, so you come out here, and what makes you start doing comedy? Because my memories, I remember not believing you were a comic somehow. Well, at first, I wasn't. I came out here and kind of interned at Funny or Die.

Right. Went to Children's Hospital and then met you. Children's Hospital. Yeah. With like Rob Corddry and that group. And then met you and then started, yeah, we were booking the podcast and stuff. Right. And then I, yeah, went back to Texas because my dad was sick for a little bit.

What happened with that ultimately? Yeah, he passed. Yeah. Sorry. No, it's okay. But that was a while back. Yeah, he passed. Yeah, sorry. No, it's okay. But that was a while back. Yeah, he passed in 2018.

And he had the dementia? Yeah. My dad just started that. I know, sorry. Yeah. It's a lot. A lot to look forward to? No. Is your mom still around?

Yeah. She's like country strong. She's all there. She's like 74 now. Oh, my God. So you come out here and okay, so you're working

for Funny or Die. When did you start doing comedy? Where? Well, yeah, I think when I went back to Austin. Oh really?

Yeah. That's when it started? At like Cap City or something? What was going on in Austin then? Yeah, that's my home club. I mean, Austin's always been

the best comedy scene because I feel like There was hardly any back then though. Yeah, you think that but I think that's because they're a group that really just does comedy because they love doing comedy. They're not really like

let me get out there and like let me get this. Sure, I get it. It's just a real supportive group. But that was the original Cap City, that big sort of weird warehouse-y looking thing with the lounge up front where you could also perform, right? You know, it had the big, huge room, right? And then up front, there was a bar, but also I had a little stage there.

Yeah. For if you didn't sell enough tickets, like me. Weekdays, you do that. I do the, I did front room once. The entrance. I did the entrance, yeah. I did the entrance because I didn't sell enough tickets. And oddly, the night I did the entrance, there was a woman in town, Barbara Coppola,

the film director, who just happened to be looking for someone for a commercial. She was shooting in Austin. So I got booked on a Sprint commercial because I did that. But I did that dumb little room up front. That's the beautiful thing about Austin. I guess. I mean, but I don't remember there being much else. But you had already dropped out of law school when you came out here the first time? I finished. No, I just kind of law school when you came out here the first time? Well, I finished. No, I just kind of took a year off to just see what the entertainment industry is like.

And then you went back and you started stand-up and you went back to school? Yeah. I just finished in like two years, so I just did it. So you got your law degree. Yeah. But never took the bar? No, because I didn't know if I wanted to move back to L.A. texas or new york and yeah they don't really have reciprocity that well so but so you go out there you start working as a stand-up and then you came back here because when did that whole project green

light thing happen oh yeah i think a few months after i moved back here which was um really unexpected yeah how'd that happen? I just... Would you submit a film or something? Yeah, a short film I did with a friend. Yeah. And then they make you do a bio video and then, yeah, I had no expectation that I'd get down to the final 10

and then get put on that reality show. Right. It's a reality show. Yeah. And then you did that. Yeah. And people knew you from that. I don't think so.

I don't think anyone really watched that. But then, okay, so then you start doing comedy out here? Mm-hmm. Yeah, with you. No, but that was after. Yeah, that was a bit after. But where were you working when you came back out here? Was it all the alt rooms or what was happening?

You end up having to do all of it. Yeah. You just do whatever you can get. Right. But it was different. So interesting learning there's an alt scene and a club scene. Right. Because I feel like Austin was kind of both.

Sure. Like club comics but also kind of that alt type thing. But I think it was doing roast battle where I actually learned. Oh, that's right. Like, oh, you can just be mean and people find it really funny. And that's where you kind of developed your style? Yeah. I think immensely.

Yeah. Because you were like pushing the envelope, being shocking. Yeah. But good jokes. I think I just felt like I was being myself, but everyone's like, I never expect that. I'm like, okay. Oh, that's right, because you were working against your type. Yeah. It's hard.

It's hard when you're, like when I dated, well, she was a wife eventually. When I was with Mishna, who was a comic and was an ex-model, there was always this idea that pretty women could not do comedy because they had to work, because people just saw them as a certain thing. So she had to, you know, kind of push back a little harder in order to deliver the goods. Was she the one that was the hair model? Yes. Because I remember it would be at Target and you'd point out the hair dye, Herbal Essence hair dye. I mean, that's her. Yeah. That hair box cursed me for a long time.

But I couldn't stop myself from walking through the supermarket to be like, there she is. I haven't talked to her in almost a decade. What are you going to do? But nonetheless. Just keep looking at her hair tie box. It's gone. It's out. It's out. The box is gone. And you know, and we're, everything's okay. You know, it's all, everything worked out, I think, for the best. So what, what the hell, like, what happened?

What year was this accident? Yeah, it was May 2020 right after COVID started. Really? Yeah. And you were out here? Yeah, I was in Beverly Hills. So you were just doing comedy, occasionally opening for Dave, doing some of the alt rooms here basically? Or where were you working?

Were you working anywhere? Yeah, I mean wherever you can get. Yeah. The store some, the improv. were you working? Were you working anywhere? Yeah, I mean, wherever you can get. Yeah. The store some, the improv. But you didn't have a job job? Well, I was on and off shows, too.

I wrote for Drop the Mic. Yeah. Was still doing, like, trying to do more of the film scene, my own shorts. Yeah, right, right. Did one with, like, Santino,

and yeah. With Andrew? Yeah, I love the filmmaking stuff. Yeah. Are you still doing it? Yeah, yeah. Well, I'm hoping, yeah. With Andrew? Yeah. I love this filmmaking stuff. Yeah. Are you still doing it? Yeah. Yeah.

Well, I'm hoping, yeah. This series goes to somewhere, but if not, yeah, just shooting stuff here and there. In London? I love just being able to make something tangible versus stand up where it's just like words into the ether. Yeah. Yeah. It seems like you're kind of hot and cold with the stand up now.

No, I love doing it. Yeah. You just don't want to rely on it. Yeah. Sometimes as a scene, it's not really like very supportive in ways. Right. Sure, it's competitive and weird. You're on your own.

You're solo. But did you feel like were people ganging up on you or anything? Did you find that people were slag on you or anything? Did you find that people were slagging you because you were opening for Dave and that kind of stuff? Well, I even got that for you. Did people feel like you jumped a few steps? Yeah, I'm sure. I mean, they don't really say it to your face, but yeah.

Do you have friends in comedy? Yeah. Okay. Yeah. It's been like a decade it's like yeah so what the fuck happened like what because like i i just couldn't it was so disturbing and jarring and terrible and tragic oh the accident yeah um yeah i was jogging in beverly hills in a crosswalk and a girl um was turning right hit me but also dragged me like I was running with a friend so he hit on the hood of her car to get her to stop like running me over um and then yeah

I guess you hit the ground so hard um like my head bled out I had a seizure um out the face but mouth mouth was phoned at the mouth and then still got up yeah and didn't want the ms to put me in the ambulance but then was in a coma. And it cut out a chunk of your skull because your brain is bleeding and swelling so much so you don't die. So they cut out the part of your skull, but was your skull shattered? I don't know. They don't really explain that. Yeah. That's the thing about.

Head trauma? Well, I feel like surgeries and stuff like that where there's just so much they don't really explain anything right but i think sometimes they don't know stuff either right i lost half my eyesight and they never really just say if it's from you hitting your head on the ground or from the brain surgeries right so you lost half your eyesight yeah like how's that in both eyes or just both eyes so i can't see the left uh like i can't see my hand right now really yeah i can see now, not now. Really? Yeah.

Oh, my God. Yeah, so that's something I'll be forever adjusting to. So you get dragged under the car, and they cut out a chunk of your brain. This all happens in Los Angeles. Yeah. And you're in a coma here. Yeah. And then what happens?

How is it handled? Does your family come out? Yeah. My family flew up immediately. Cause you know, they're like, well, she might pass. So we need to have the surgery. But they're like, also like, well, she might pass during the surgery. Um, so yeah, they came out. So it's terrible for everybody, but you were asleep. Yeah. That's the thing. And I have like zero memory of like six months of it. So six months. So it's weird. I feel like, yeah, it's probably way more traumatic for them because they're the onlookers of it where I just like, I have to ask him like, so what happened? Yeah. So you were in a coma for six months? No, no, no. I was in a coma for a few weeks. Okay. And then

wake up and then in the ICU for a while. And yeah, you have to like relearn your name and how to walk. But this is here? Yeah. And what's going on with your head though? So like how do they sort of put a temporary? Because I mean, when I reached out, you needed more skull, right? Yeah. So they cut out, yeah, a big chunk of your skull.

Just to relieve the bleeding? Yeah, so your brain. And the swelling. Yeah. Because it's swelling and bleeding so much. And they were able to stop that, obviously. Yeah, by taking out the skull. And I don't know whatever else they do.

And then they don't explain stuff. Yeah. So when you come to. Or maybe they do. I just don't remember it. When you came to, did you know everybody? No, that takes a minute. You didn't know your family?

Right. I didn't know my name. I think all I just said like, oh, I fell off my bike. I just need to walk it off. Like, I just want to go home. I was very adamant. Just wanted to go home. Like, when I could actually walk, I think I was trying to escape the entire time.

Like, shards of glass like memory, right? Do you remember? Yeah, the security would just be like, Ashley. Shards of glass-like memory. Do you remember? Yeah, the security would just be like, Ashley. And it'd be like six guys. Carry you back to my bed. Shrug me down. Oh, you tried to leave? Oh, yeah.

Towards after, I don't know, maybe three or four months in, yeah. And this is when you were aware? I don't know if... I mean, yeah, I think after a while they... Because, you know, that situation, they come in like, what's her name? What happened to you? And you're just like, I don't know. I don't care. I don't know. I don't know if, I mean, yeah, I think after a while they, because, you know, that situation they come in like, what's her name? What happened to you? And you're just like, I don't know. I don't care. I don't care.

And then eventually, you know, they tell you so many times you, you know what to say. Right. But when did you actually start getting your memories back? I know that's a hard part of it too. Because even when I finally was discharged for like a minute, being at home, my friend Nicolette came by and brought me something. My family was like, who's that? I was like, I don't know. So how did they transport you to Texas?

Well, that was complicated, too, because I got a new skull a few months in. A new skull? Yeah. Made out of what? Titanium. Okay. I think. Yeah. Well, they took that skull away, too. What, Made out of what? Titanium. Okay. I think. Yeah.

Well, they took that skull away too. What, it didn't take? No, because, yeah, it took a few months. They gave me one, which I think they should have waited six months. And then, I mean, I was in the ICU for a while after that too. Yeah. And then even when they discharged me and we were planning to leave, I think I was still like having a 105 fever and sleeping like 20 hours a day.

And they were just like, no, it's okay. But then my Texas doctor was like, no, she needs a CT scan. They're like, fine. And then got one and realized I had a brain infection. So they had to take out my skull. That was the fever? So they took out your new skull? Yeah.

And then, because they can't just give you a new one that quick. You have to wait like another four to six months or something. But what do they put on it when there's no skull? Just like some cheesecloth or gauze? Yeah, and then you just have to wear a helmet. I hate helmets. Oh, my God. So you're wearing a special helmet, and they fix the brain infection, obviously.

I guess so, yeah. Well, yeah, but how do they transport you to texas um well yeah then i'm in the icu for a while again too but then um yeah then we flew back you were able to fly yeah with the helmet i hate helmets or even i feel like once a month later i was in emergency detention too. I should have been in the psych ward, but they wouldn't let me do that because I was wearing a helmet. They're like, no, that's a weapon. You should have been in the psych ward.

Why? Because you were erratic? Yeah, I think you just... You need somewhere to... After a traumatic, severe traumatic brain injury. Yeah. Your moods are not... They're just all over the place.

Do you remember that? I think the seizure medication I was on too made me really, really depressed. Do you remember that? Yeah, I remember that. Like suicidally depressed? I mean, honestly, yeah. I think the seizure medication, they wouldn't let me get it off it because they're like, well, you still have to have brain surgeries and you can have a seizure when you're getting brain surgery. This is in Texas.

I had a seizure, I guess, when the accident happened. Yeah, this is in Texas. Which I think it was, you know, I cried for help because I just needed to get off this medication. And they don't let you take it off. So my sister's like, let's go to the hospital and we'll get them to change your prescriptions. Yeah. Okay. And then she tells them.

So then, you know, a cop has to escort me to it. And because I'm not allowed in the psych ward, I'm in emergency detention, which. At home? Is really extreme. Oh, I'm not allowed in the psych ward, I'm in emergency detention, which. At home? Is really extreme. Oh, in the hospital. In the hospital, yeah. What, extreme in the sense you were strapped into the bed or something? No, but it's just a tiny little room.

You're not allowed to go to the bathroom by yourself. You know, you don't have anyone around because it's still during COVID too. Like the entire time. Oh, yeah. No one is really allowed to visit. Right. Oh, my God. One was really allowed to visit. Right. Oh, my God. One family was let in like 15 minutes a day, one family member.

And I had a night sitter because, yeah, I remember him. So everyone's in masks and the hospital's quiet. I guess so. I assume so, yeah. You were in a room. Yeah. But the emergency detention, yeah, it's a tiny little room. Did you have your memories back yet?

Well, you don't really get the memories back, I feel like. You just know you don't remember it. Uh-huh. They're just kind of gone. But there are people now that you didn't know that you know. Yeah. And you know experiences with them from the past. Yeah.

So something regrouped. Those few months are gone. Right. So they took the first skull off because of the brain infection. Yeah. And then you're in a helmet. And then when I heard about the GoFundMe, that was for the second skull. Yeah.

I think by then I had another brain surgery, which I was supposed to get one and to wake up and be like, did I get a new skull? And they're like, no, see you later. We'll see you soon. Um, sayonara. Um, the blood flow wasn't right. So they, yeah. So they had to wait a few more months. Wow. So, and your sister, the doctor, is involved? Yeah. I mean, she flew up to L.A. What kind of doctor? OBGYN.

Oh, so. So, IVF type stuff, yeah. But not necessarily helpful for you, but other than support and to make sure you're getting the good care. Yeah, where she knew my neurosurgeon connected us. And then my younger sister, I mean, she's a nurse. She's taking care of my dad and stuff. And so she really,

because I had to be supervised 24-7 when I was home. And she'd clean my head almost nightly and I had to be injected. They call it like, it's like, when they prescribe it to you, it's like a machine gun for antibiotics. And she had to, because I had a long-term PICC line, which is basically an IV line that goes from your arm to your heart. Just so you won't get infected?

To get rid of the brain infection, I guess. It took that long, huh? Yeah. And you inject antibiotics into your PICC line. Did you ever think you were dead? I mean, I feel like sometimes you still have those moments where it's like, am I alive? You are. You're definitely alive.

I didn't know what to expect. You seem pretty good. You look well. Yeah. I mean, the amount of times I hear like you're a miracle. You don't appreciate that? The amount of times you hear it is like, uh But you didn't have a come to Jesus moment during any of this?

Surprisingly, no My mom's very religious So I hear about God and Jesus every day You do? Yeah But you're not buying it? No Yeah

I mean, I don't pray But I guess there are certain things you pray for but i mean you must have some like something got you through some determination or you don't feel that you just feel like you got lucky well i mean to even learn when i did hit the ground i have a seizure and foam at the mouth when the ems finally got me up i tried to fight not like fight them fight them because i've never thrown a punch before. Maybe shadow box them. Yeah. Or I was like, do not touch me.

Do not touch me. Like, I want to go home. Oh, my God. But then, yeah, I was in a coma after that. And so the new one that, the new skull? Yeah. It's working? Yeah.

Yeah. Which I really love my Texas surgeons. But it's interesting. You have so many surgeons too, because they're two different teams. When I got discharged, one's like, okay, you can take baths, not showers. The other one's like, no, you can take showers, not baths. And I kind of go against each other.

Yeah. But yeah, I'm learning about how to neuro-optimologist too, because learning, a lot of your surgeons are in the military too, or my surgeon's like, okay, we're glad you're good. I'm off to Kuwait tomorrow. Bye. Oh, really? Yeah. My neuro-ophthalmologist, who was in the military, teaching me, because it happens in the military where they take out the skull, but I guess there isn't a way to store it quite like in a hospital. So usually they sew it into people's stomachs.

Just for safekeeping? Yeah. We're learning, too, at the beginning when they first cut out my skull, my older sister kept calling and asking, like, where's her skull? Where's her skull? And they're just like, we don't know. And then she finally got my surgeon's, like, cell phone number, and she's like, where's your skull? And they found out it got thrown away.

Your skull got thrown away? Yeah. Like your real skull? Yeah. Oh, my God. So the one you have is like some sort of metal. Yeah. You got a picture?

Oh, that's it? Yeah. It's the left side when you're looking at it. So it has my name on it. Oh, was that just a fun thing they did? Or is that in case you get lost? I guess so how did you handle like you know it seemed like you know women don't get it easy on twitter to

begin with but oh right did you get death threats i didn't know i didn't get death threats but i um but i saw that the the n cell army and the the the Christian weirdos had sort of gone through Twitter and found an old abortion joke and just locked into it. And just like, I mean, there were thousands of threats and horrible things being said. I mean, and that joke is clearly a joke. But I mean, but how did you handle that outpouring of hatred? Did it affect you in any way? I mean, the joke is pretty extreme. Men are against abortion because they're just jealous.

They'll never know how good it feels to kill a baby. But on some level, it's a dead baby joke. Yeah. Which is a whole form unto itself. It's just not appreciated as much as it used to be. Yeah, that joke is a couple years old. So, yeah, the death threats, I mean, yeah, they've been going on for, like, years. They just go in and out of, I mean, they were so many firsts.

Well, somebody posted in a world of idiots. Yeah, and then even, like, Ben Shapiro reposted it, you know, just like. He did? Yeah, he goes, you sound delightful. Oh, he just said that? Yeah. Well, at least that's just smug and stupid. Yeah.

But that unleashed an army of fuckheads to pile on. Yeah. And they're just sewn on and stopped forever. But, you know, they're even like, your mom should have boarded you. It's like, are you for or against it? But the only time, I mean, it's just like, okay. It's a lot of like people with animated avatars, too. It's not like real people.

But some of them are real people. Right. But it only really started to bother me when they'd start messaging, like try to message my family. To say what? To tell my mom she should have aborted me. Who the fuck's got that time and what is the incentive? Did you feel like, well, I know they're just trolls and they're just awful and most of them are dudes but did you did you feel that any of it was actually religious based did you did anyone was there any real genuine outreach from christians to help you

no the pro-life people just love death threats like they do right and did it concern anybody like security wise or do you just, you just dealt with it? I don't know how you dealt with it. I don't know. Did you pay attention to it? I think it's just a thing that happens to people on Twitter, right? Yeah. I don't know.

Should I be worried about it? No, it's behind you. It happens to everybody, right? It does, but not that much. Oh. And they pick somebody who's literally, as far as they knew, in a coma. Yeah. And just piled on with fucking hateful garbage.

I would post that picture a lot and be like, yeah, we should buy a beer for the person who hit her with a car. That's right. That was a popular take. Yeah. They're just like, yeah, you're already a lump of cells. You should do a show of just the responses. Yeah. There's a lot.

Yeah. Oh, my God. So you kind of took it with a grain of salt-ish. I mean, I guess you have to. Yeah, what are you going to do? What's the alternative? You didn't freak out. The alternative is freaking out.

Yeah. And spiraling somehow and being afraid. But none of that. You had other things going on. Yeah. Like learning to walk. Yeah. Trying to to walk. Yeah. Trying to remember my name, yeah.

And my family. But that was, yeah, that had been going on for years. I think by that time it was just like. Before the accident? Oh, immensely, yeah. Oh, because of that joke or any joke. Mostly for that joke? Yeah, mostly for that joke.

But then it's just like, well, you can't stop tweeting abortion jokes. Yeah. So you kept going. Yeah. You showed them. Yeah. I mean, I'm not pro-life or pro-choice. I'm just always abortion all the time. Yeah, I get it. How long did it take you to learn how to walk? I mean, how bad was it? Did you have to use a walker and everything else?

Or how did it work? How did you get your motor skills back and everything? Just through physical therapy? Yeah. I mean, yeah, I don't have a lot of memory of the hospital. I assume they eventually unstrap you and let you try to walk. But yeah, after that, when I did get home, I did have rehab. And they'd come to the house because it was COVID.

Yeah. I'd go on walks with them because I wasn't allowed to really go on walks by myself. But luckily it's like my childhood home, so I know that. So being at home was fine, but yeah, I'd go. That must have been helpful though that that was that deep a memory that like you were familiar with that in like a deep way. Yeah. And I guess my family too, like my dad, you know,

wasn't allowed to leave the house. Like they were kind of used to it where I think. So he were there together with your dad? Well, yeah. I mean, he was at home for like a decade. Right. But now you're both sort of invalids in the same house? Yeah. We're not allowed outside. Yeah. Certain stuff gets locked away from us. Yeah. They have practice, I guess. It's sort of sweet in a horrendously sad way yeah but he was completely out of it right yeah yeah yeah and so were you kind of yeah oh my god it's so horrendous where now what are you doing with all this amazing fodder for comedy

Now, what are you doing with all this amazing fodder for comedy? I do like that comedy. You lived it. Can you conceive of telling the story publicly? Yeah. And I feel like, yeah, that's why your special is so inspiring, too, because you take it so dark, but you make it really personal, which is really nice to see. Thank you. Yeah. But are you working on stuff?

Yeah, I am working on, I mean, yeah, it's kind of interesting to call it a one-woman show because it has a context, but yeah, working on a special about it. Really? Yeah, we did it trial-wise a little bit for Edinburgh last year, and then this year, yeah, I want to do it Edinburgh again with it. Are you going to? Yeah. So you were doing an hour? Yeah. And you told the, yeah, I went into Edinburgh again with it. Are you going to? Yeah. So you were doing an hour?

Yeah. And you told the whole story as much as you can remember? Yeah. It's a through line throughout it, yeah. Did you get laughs? Yeah. I mean, I'll take groans, too, at some of my jokes. Yeah.

But they're all jokes around this sort of, you know, from the beginning of getting run over. See, I thought your head got run over. And I'm just happy it didn't. Yeah. I mean, I think my leg did too. But they're like, yeah, they thought they were going to have to give me like a new ankle and stuff too. But they're like, we're not worried about that now.

Right. Like for that even. So your leg was broken? Eight months later. No, I don't know if it was like because it was dragged or the exhaust or something. Burned? Abrasions? I don't know.

Yeah. There's still a bunch of scars. Yeah. Not up to speed on exactly the injuries you took. But it was one of those things, too. They're just like, well, we have to operate on it to decide if we need to operate on it. Right. Okay.

So they're just like, just wait it out. We'll see what happens later. But then actually the pain did go away. You didn't break bones? I don't think so. That's crazy. What do you mean you don't think so? You have a cast on.

You didn't break bones. You got run over and dragged by a car and you just broke your head from slamming into the ground. Yeah. Which that one kind of matters the most. Yeah. Yeah. Which that one kind of matters the most. Yeah. Yeah. I'm not going to say it's a miracle, but Jesus Christ, you're fucking lucky.

Somehow. Yeah, immensely. Yeah. The amount I hear it. You are lucky to be alive and you are a miracle. Yeah. And you're just sort of like, I will see. You just got to stop shoving that down my throat.

Do you feel gratitude? Yeah. That's good. gratitude? Yeah. That's good. Yeah. Yeah, life is great. No, I mean for your family and just to be awake. Oh, yeah. I'm asleep.

Yeah. I feel bad for them. You feel bad for them? Well, yeah. I'd have to go through that and just like, oh, she might pass. She might pass. Oh, my God. And now they're like, nope, she didn't.

Still here. Now somehow like more, more angry. Yeah. Why wouldn't you be more angry, I guess? I guess. Well, I don't know. I guess you should have that, like, born-again type gratitude. But maybe I'm a bit more angry.

I don't know. Well, I mean, it's lucky you're not, like, you know, compromised. Like, you can talk. There are so many ways it could have gone because I felt like when I first started texting you, I'm like, oh, my God, she's barely got a handle on the language. But then I just realized that's just texting. But maybe you didn't. Well, that might have been, too. Yeah.

I mean, even still, I scramble words quite often. Yeah. When you type or not when you talk? When I talk. Oh, really? really yeah uh like how does that go like you just like things the sentence doesn't come out right yeah i mean i feel like maybe that was just me before too yeah even when i watch my drunk history i'm like no that's me just pretty sober too even though i slur every word yeah it can just come out blurry slurry. And what about the person that hit you?

I think I know her name. I just don't want to ever like look up. Oh, interesting. Just some of the stuff you have to leave out of it, you know. Yeah. In terms of like what it would do to your brain or how you would focus your—well, see, to me, that requires some sort of discipline and focus to not— because you don't want to just make your life full of bitterness and anger about that person. Is that why?

Yeah. I guess there's just other stuff to fixate that energy on. That takes a tremendous amount of discipline. I think I was raised a pretty forgiving person. Yeah? That takes a tremendous amount of discipline. I think I was raised a pretty forgiving person. Yeah?

Is this forgiveness or just detachment? That's probably hitting it on the head, yeah. So what are you doing out here? What was the plan? Just saying hi to people? Yeah, say hi to you. Yeah. Are you doing any comedy?

Yeah, I think I'm going to do the comedy store maybe tonight or tomorrow night. Oh, really? I think so. Which show? Which room? Belly? Yeah. Oh, really?

I'd probably be there. I don't think I'm, I didn't put in for tonight though or tomorrow, Thursday. When are you leaving? I think either Thursday evening or Friday. Back to Austin? Yeah. And what goes on there? Where do you work there?

Yeah, Cap City. There's also the Creek and Cave. How's the new Cap City? Oh, it's really nice. And it's interesting. It's in the domain, which is a completely different area. Yeah. Like that huge outdoor mall.

So there's a lot of people walking around who would just walk in. But it's a helium, right? It's Grossman, right? I think he bought it. Yeah, I think it is now. And the old Cap City is just gone. Yeah. That was a weird place, though.

But so the new one looks like a modern new room. Yeah. And it's just a touring headliner show, usually? Thursday, Friday, Saturday? Yeah. And you just work out there? It's your regular club? Well, I go there to do headlining sets.

But otherwise, working on it, yeah, like Creek in the Cave and the East Austin Comedy Club. There's a lot of little rooms. So you're basically a headliner? Yeah. Wow. Yeah, that's why I've outgrown being an opener. And a middle.

Yeah. No feature, no open, headliner. So what do you do, like 50? Yeah. Strong 50? I do, like 50? Yeah. Strong 50? I mean, I want to say, yeah. And how much does the club act about the accident? Yeah, I try to use that as a through line throughout it.

So a good deal because, I mean, you do have to really explain to, like, oh, yeah, they took out a chunk of my skull and then, yeah, I was hit by her and she never apologized. So that's how you set it up? I got into a lot, oh, yeah, they took out a chunk of my skull. And then, yeah, I was hit by her and she never apologized. So that's how you set it up? I got into a lot of fights, yeah. You got into a lot of fights? In high school, yeah. Yeah?

I think that's why I popped up, yeah. And you're going to shoot a special somewhere? I mean, that would be great. Get someone to produce it. When are you going back to England? In a couple weeks. Oh, so you're just going to stop in Austin. I love going there.

I had a good time there. But yeah, I'm excited because, yeah, hopefully working on that TV series. On the TV series, yeah. And with a director I really admire, Anthony Byrne. He's the Peaky Blinders director. Oh, really? Yeah. That's a great show.

Yeah. No, I'm thinking of the other one, Fleabag. I don't know if I've watched any Peaky Blinders. Oh, what? I'm sorry. I'm not a British person. It's been out for like eight years. Yeah, I know, but who cares? I mean, I don't of the other one, Fleabag. I don't know if I've watched any Peaky Blinders. Oh, what? I'm sorry. I'm not a British person. It's been out for like eight years. Yeah, I know.

But who cares? I mean, I don't know. I usually don't really like period stuff. But yeah, that's like my comfort show too. When I'd be in waiting for my brain surgery, my sister would like play me an episode. Of Peaky Blinders? Yeah, it's pretty violent. But I think I have a thing for the violent shows too.

Like I love Gangs of London, which yeah, Korn Hardy, that director, really good. violent dark but i think i have a thing for the violent shows too like i love gangs of london um which yeah corn hardy that director really yeah he had me host the gangs london podcast last year how'd that go i don't know why they were having me toast this gang's show about this gangs of london london show because you love it yeah i love it but also this just american girl coming in. With half a skull. Yeah. She's perfect. Yeah. Well, I hope it all works out with all that stuff. Let me know.

You know, let me know when you feel like you have it in shape for the hour. Do you ever really feel like that, though? You're like, it's done. It's ready. Yes. Yeah, I guess because when you do it so often, yeah. Well, I mean, that should be some sort of goal. Like when I put together specials, usually I'm doing like an hour and a half, two hours.

And right up to like weeks, you know, a week or two before I have to shoot an hour. And then you kind of just like crunch it, you know. And it's good to have an abundance of stuff because then you have choices. Like what's the strongest shit? What serves the through line? You know, what's the strongest shit? What serves the through line? You know, what are the callbacks? What can I just lose in chunks? So, yeah, I mean, the goal to get it to like an hour or an hour ten or whatever, it's like that's part of the challenge.

It's good. Yeah, it's cutting it out because I still have my like old stuff about like Me Too and Cosby and stuff like that. Yeah. I'm like, I just feel like, oh, just let it go. Yeah, it's hard to let shit go. But, like, I don'tby and stuff like that. Yeah. And like, just be like, just let it go. Yeah, it's hard to let shit go, but like,

I don't know, I never think about it. For me, like once it's done, it's done. I've lost great bits that I've done on TV shows that no one fucking saw.

But I decided like, well, it's out there. Oh, and, oh, Leslie, so great.

I love you. To Leslie? You like it? Yeah, to Leslie. You playing the text care, like, we got a waffle.

I love that so much. Did I do all right? Yeah. Oh, great. I love you. Too Leslie? You like it? Yeah, Too Leslie. You playing the Texas girl. Like, we got a wa-fa. I love that so much. Did I do all right? Yeah. Oh, thank you. Yeah. You're killing it in acting. It was Lubbock. It was Lubbock.

Okay, was it? Because I feel like it's not really specified in the show. No, but that's what I studied, a Lubbock accent. Wow, that's where my parents grew up. Really? Yeah. It's sort of specific, and it's not that heavy. I worked with the dialect coach a bit

so I had the phonetics of it and it was interesting. I was terrified of doing that but I figured, well, if I'm going to fucking do this, you've got to try being not you. And I did.

I'm glad you liked it. Yeah. It's kind of a cool little movie. Yeah, I love West Texas movies. One of my favorites is Hell or High Water. Great. That's my, whenever I feel homesick, I turn that on. I just interviewed Ben Foster.

He's so amazing in it. It's great. Yeah. It's great. That whole movie is great. Yeah. I want to watch it again. Yeah, and just even the music throughout it.

Yeah, I love that show so much. That's definitely one of my top five. Yeah, it sounds like you've got to get into directing. Well, yeah, it's definitely the goal. Right before COVID-2, I was doing Viacom's director's program. So I worked on like Awkwafina some. She's a character. I never really realized.

I'm in a movie with her, that bad guy's movie. But we never really met maybe once. She's a character, man. Yeah, she's splendid. Yeah. Do you know her? Not really because I was just kind of, you know, shouting behind the camera, the director, Lucia Anello, who did Hacks. She's amazing.

So you were just like that you were tagging along to learn? Yeah. How'd that go? Well, I think the end goal was then eventually you direct a show for one of those networks but um it kind of fell through but it fell through why because of the accident or was this after uh i feel like covid they kind of fucked it all up it all changed yeah um did you get covid uh yeah actually almost a year ago. When I came to LA, finally, last May, right before my birthday. Yeah, I got it.

You got it? I was like, yeah, it sucked. Yeah, it can get pretty heavy. Well, look, I'm happy that you're alive. Thank you. And you seem like the old Ashley I knew. Oh, I'm sorry to be around you. You probably bring it out of me.

Oh, well, that's sweet of you. Well, keep me in the loop. Please. Thanks. There you go. Harrowing. But she's okay. You can check out her stuff

at ashleybarnhill.com and follow her on social media channels there. And now let's get to Jason. Jason Wollner. So Tom Sharpling recommended watching Paul T. Goldman. And, you know, I didn't know what it was. I didn't know that it existed. I had no idea.

But he was like, you've got to watch this. And, you know, he's a friend of Jason's. And Jason's a frequent guest on The Best Show. And I watched it, he's a friend of Jason's, and Jason's a frequent guest on The Best Show. And I watched it, and I really didn't know what to do with it. And I found it, I had a lot of mixed feelings about it, but then it became challenging, and then it became revelatory, and then it became upsetting. You know, the full spectrum of things that you're supposed to feel when you're kind of confronting a piece of art, which I have to say that it is something that took him 10 years to make. And and you watch and you're like, why would anyone put 10 years of their life into this guy, into this idea?

And maybe we can kind of get to the bottom of that with Jason. and maybe we can kind of get to the bottom of that with Jason. Paul T. Goldman is streaming on Peacock, and I don't really know what to tell you about it, but I hope you watched it if you're listening to this interview because we're going to talk thoroughly about it. I can't believe, though, I think the last time we talked was like, what, 2013? 2013. I just looked at it in my email.

Yeah. I was a child. It's almost 10 years ago? Yeah, I think it was towards the end of 2013. But yes, it was about 10 years ago. Do you feel like a lot has happened? A lot has happened. I just remember a distinct sense of I didn't deserve

to be talking to you. I hadn't earned it. Oh, really? That was your feeling? And also, I was at the time waking up with headaches that would last all day

and that morning I woke up and just felt like shit and I was like, oh, it's one of them. So I felt like I wasn't fully there. Did you figure out what the headaches were?

They kind of went away, yeah. It was either allergies or I got a prescription for something I take once a month when it happens. Do you have allergies? Yeah, it's dust mites and penicillin. Dust mites? Yeah, really bad. They did the thing a year ago where they poke your back, and then it just blew up. So I take a drop under my lip every day.

Of what? Of dust mites, of concentrated dust mites to build up an immunity. Dust mite concentrate? Little vials of dust mite shit or juice or something, and then you just give yourself a drop of it every day until your body can deal with it. For three years. It's a vaccine idea. Basically, yeah.

Yeah. But it's not a prescription. It's not covered by anything. It's this doctor in Beverly Hills. Is he making his own dust mite juice? Yeah. He does. Does he raise dust mites and grind them down?

Basically. That's why he told me. That's why it's so expensive. You're going to a witch. Yes. It's a serum. He's kind of this k. That's why it's so expensive. You're going to a witch. Yes, it's a serum. He's kind of this kooky doctor. Is it working?

Well, I think if you believe it's working, it's working. I used to think I was allergic to cats and dogs, and this test showed I was not. It was just dust, these little animals. And what about the penicillin business, I imagine? Stay away from it. All right, that's what you just don't. Yeah, I think I just write it if they ask what I'm allergic to.

How'd you figure out that you're... My mom told me when I was young that I would go into shock if I took penicillin, but I don't know how they determined that. How do they know that? They just give it to a kid. Bad experience at the doctor. Yeah. It's lucky you don't remember it. So, look, I guess you're back because I need you to explain yourself.

Yes, please. I heard our mutual friend, Tom Sharpley, tell me you had a strong reaction to my show. I'm very excited to talk to you about it. Well, I mean, the weird thing is in 2013, you were a year into this thing. Yes. I think it was very, you know, kind of complex and layered. But to set it up, this guy, Paul T. Goldman, his real name is Finkelman, right?

Yes. Paul Finkelman. Mm-hmm. So the root of this was he was just shotgunning tweets to directors to make his story, his novel, was it? No, his memoir. His memoir. It was a nonfiction book that he self-published on Amazon called Duplicity, A True Story of Crime and Deceit.

Okay. But, like, he went out to everybody on Twitter. He went out to a few hundred people. Anyone who said, yeah, director, I think. Are you the only one that took it? Actually, the reason I, because I didn't contact him until many months later. And the reason I finally jumped on it was because I saw Brett Ratner also responded to him. Disgraced filmmaker, Brett Ratner, who just responded, send me the book.

And I thought, oh, shit, if he jumps on this, if he just, you know, it would be nothing for him to option it if he thought there was something interesting there. Right. And I was like, I don't want to, I was obsessed with this thing and just kind of nervous about contacting him. I was like, I just need to jump on it, grab it. What were you obsessed with? I was obsessed with Paul, basically, with this guy. So tell, so you, I want to know your whole reaction to this, to this guy and this story,

because I'm very curious. But this is a guy that wrote a book that was, that became, it seemed almost crazy that, you know, he got played by a grifter wife. Yeah. But, you know, in his mind or in reality, which I guess was the question, the conspiracy was huge. She was a part of a prostitution ring and it was was global, and there was organized crime people involved, and it sort of had to do with child trafficking, and it was all in the book. Yeah, basically he married a woman,

turned out to have a secret double life, as he puts it, and then determines that she's, yeah, helping run an international child sex trafficking ring. And in this tweet, he was like, read my book, find out how I, you know, empowered myself, took down this crime ring. And the book, I just became obsessed with his voice. Also, he had a video on his website that he shot himself.

And it's, you know, he was like this kind of nebbishy middle-aged guy talking about taking down a crime ring. And I thought, okay, there's something, there's something interesting there. There's something funny there. It's a very dark subject matter. He's a very kind of goofy, lighthearted guy.

But it was reading the book where I just fell in love with his voice. There was just so much about it that was fascinating to me. But what was it, the earnestness? Was it this sort of almost innocent approach to prose? It was the, yeah, it was this kind of writing that was very much, he was, you know, trying to say one thing and then the subtext of it, of that a person would write this,

or that, you know, what he thought was the interesting part of his story was not what I thought was the interesting part of his story. It was that, to me, it was about someone kind of doing, in a very unusual way, shaping, taking control of the narrative of his life, that he was someone who had kind of failed in a lot of ways, didn't have much going on, walked into this bad situation and kind of thought, well, this is my this is who I am. This is my ticket and kind of wrapped his whole identity around this mission to take down this crime ring run by. to take down this crime ring run by his ex-wife. So you identify with the vulnerability of a mark

and the sort of like the guy that never lived up to his own expectations or his family's expectations. Yeah, which I didn't really know at the time until I really got to know him. But at first it was really about this is the most interesting, unusual way that I've seen someone attempt to shape the narrative of a disappointing life is to basically, you know, write it into a book. And his whole thing was just tweeting at everyone, pushing it, pushing his story. Find out how I empowered myself. Did you believe it?

I. Immediately. Like, what isn't like, you know, when someone refers to child sex trafficking as a trope, that is a red flag of a conspiracy theory. Of course. Yeah. And especially now. I mean, this was all before QAnon, Pizzagate, all that stuff. But even then, though, it was a weird go-to.

Yes. And I thought that, you know, I assumed there were parts of this that were absolutely true. And I assumed there were parts of it that he was either wrong about or lying about. And I wanted to find out. I was curious. There curious there is you know I don't think he's crazy I don't think he lives in a fantasy I don't think he's delusional um but I felt like yeah likely the what he thought was this evidence that he found in her boyfriend's trash uh that let you know pointed towards what he thought was a child sex trafficking ring I had I had my doubts and I wanted to find out what what actually was going on you don't, I had my doubts and I wanted to find out what actually was going on.

You don't think he was delusional? I feel like he, well, delusional in terms of like fully not living in reality. Like I don't think he's a crazy person. You think he, like over the arc of the six episodes, is it six? Six, yeah. That he had put something in place to counter the weird kind of heartbreak and anger of being thoroughly taken advantage of. Yeah, that's exactly what I think the story is about, is about kind of this very strange response to trauma and pain and sadness and loneliness. Strange response to trauma and pain and sadness and loneliness.

And that's why I thought, even though, you know, I thought parts of it were very funny, but ultimately it was a very sad story. You weren't making a comedy. You were counterbalancing the sad story by executing his dreams. him through you to execute these dreams of making a franchise, writing other books, creating a movie, and creating a TV show based on all of this, even though you didn't do full series. I mean, thank God you didn't get that obsessed. But that was the entertainment value and also the thing that didn't make it seem like you were taking advantage of the guy and also provided the comedy. So your hope was, and I'm sorry, you can talk. No, you're absolutely right.

But your hope was ultimately that I don't even know if you were considering the viewer, to be honest with you, at a certain point, right? I wanted to lead the viewer through the same experience I had of discovering him, discovering his story, discovering where he took it. Okay, but the gamble was that your executing his dream was going to overpower or at least balance out the sort of sadness of that guy. Yeah, I mean, I wanted to embrace the sadness that was there. I think that's an important part of the story. Right, but you didn't want it to overwhelm the story, right? I didn't want it to be so sad or so disturbing or whatever that you would just shut it off or not be able to handle it.

But it is a story about sadness and loneliness and looking for meaning. And that's what, yeah, he's a very kind of extreme character. But I also found stuff in there as odd as a lot of the story was that I related to. I was like, yeah, you want what you think is a normal life. You want a partner.

You want a family. You want to have purpose. And, you know, the way he does it, the way he did it was very different than most people. But, yeah, I feel like there's universal stuff in there. Of course.

That's why I never wanted it to be like a freak show or whatever. Yeah. Really? Well, that was the line I'm trying to toe with it is to be able to sometimes laugh at what's going on and laugh at this guy. Well, the only reason it's not quite a freak show is because of his confidence. Right. Yes. Yeah. And his Yes. Yeah.

And his commitment. Yeah. You know, it rides a line by virtue of just him being who he is. Because what I felt, like, I'm hypersensitive. Yeah, I want to know all of what you felt watching it. I'm hypersensitive, you know, and it's weird because I have enough bully in me, you know, to know that I have been mean to people like him. In what way? Like one-on-one, like just kind of steamroll?

I mean, you're not like, you know, you're an idiot or anything. But, you know, not unlike you, I think that a guy like him reveals something in me that I have that I push back against. So when I meet those people in real life, there will be a subtle pushback because like, I don't want to see the you in me. Yes. That's why I think when the people that I know and friends of mine who, for whom Paul makes them very uncomfortable, I do think it's exactly that. It's like, it's tapping into something within us that we try to not face, try to push away. Sure. Yeah.

Right. The awkwardness, the sort of strange vulnerability that you have no control over. I mean, not everybody's like that. Some people are broken or to the point where they've killed that part of themselves and turned it into something else. Or some people were properly parented and just don't walk around like a fucking open wound all the time. Right. I also think there's a specifically like Jewish male element of like, what do you mean you

don't want to have sex with me? Just like it's intense. It's a very deep, disturbing thing. Yeah. The sexually frustrated nebbish is really the worst kind of Jewish character there is. Well, for us, yeah. I somehow avoided that one. I don't know. It must have been touch and go at some point, but I turned a corner at some point in college.

But my feelings were, like after the first episode, I'm like, I don't know if I can look at this guy with that weird mouth twitch for however long this is going to go on. It's fair. It's fair. I guess I have a real, I mean, I'm drawn to that kind of thing. If something's making me uncomfortable, but it is tapping into something that, I mean, yeah, I just kept pushing. This was 10 years, and I. I just, I resented him immediately.

Yeah. But I believed that, you know, you had some control over something to make it, you know, to make Sharpwing or anybody, or Peacock even, to make six episodes, you know, that revolved around this guy. I'm shocked that Peacock did it. I still kind of can't believe because it's such a different kind of project. And I walked in, I was like, this is an experimental project. I have an idea of where it's going, but I can't promise you anything. I was like, I hope it'll make sense. I mean, yeah, people find him repellent sometimes,

but also just as many people find him endearing. And I just tried to ride that line and you know if there ever times where we pushed you know what you thought of him to the point that you just wanted to shut it off then i would i would try to introduce something that kind of made him you know human again relatable and and really just try to look at all sides of it but it does yeah it is a test uh for a lot of people for sure this This was a decade. It was a decade of my life, yeah. I did other things. I didn't only do this.

But you were in relationship. I still talk to him almost every day. Paul Finkelman. Yes. For 10 years, and you talk to him every day. Text mostly now, but yeah. Why? Because we're friends.

And I really tried not to be in the show for many years. I didn't want to be in it at all. But at a certain point, the show became about the making of itself. And I was like, yeah, I have to acknowledge my role in all of this. You seemed visibly angry. It was frustrating for sure sometimes, yeah. But was that what the anger was that just working with him was frustrating for sure sometimes, yeah. But was that what the anger was that, oh, just working with him was frustrating? See, I—

The anger was at myself a lot of the time because I would create these— I would read a scene where he's in a doctor's office and a sex worker is getting prescribed for an STD, and I would read it and be like, oh, this will be a funny, interesting scene to shoot and see how it feels. And then on set, it would be like, well, this will be a funny, interesting scene to shoot and see how it feels. And then on set, it would be like, well, this is measurable. I'm asking actresses to do this dialogue. That he wrote. That he wrote, intentionally creating an uncomfortable environment. Yeah, a lot of it was not fun.

Okay, so you are doing a docu-series in a way, but you like the book, you thought it was interesting. So what is the agreement with Finkelman at the beginning, at the outset, to how you're going to execute the book? Because there is also an underlying grifter element to him. To him? Yeah. That he clearly sees, because he's so desperate and so lost as

somebody who kind of manifested a self or a profession or even a way to make a living, that he's sort of hanging it all on this idea, the books and the possible franchises. And when you see those bits and pieces of him selling the book or selling himself, it does have that, those bits and pieces of him selling the book or selling himself, it does have that, you know, knowing as the series goes on that it's probably not true, that there is this pitch. Like, this is his big shot at making the big money in show business. And whether he believes that or not, there still is that kind of, you know, crazy Eddie element to it. Yeah, I would say maybe more hustler than gripper.

Okay, yeah, right. No, that's right. Okay. Yeah, I would say maybe more hustler than Gripper. Okay, yeah, right. No, that's right. Okay. Yeah, he's not being disingenuous. He's not like a con artist the way, you know, other people in the story may be. What was the agreement at the beginning? Oh, yes, the agreement, yeah.

That we're going to shoot part of this movie, we're going to shoot, like, because these are bits. You know, the parts of the film based on the book and then the parts of the, you know of the franchise series or what have you, I mean, you conceived of those. You knew you weren't going to make a movie. Yes, and maybe some of the confusion with people who think it's almost like a Windy City Heat or like a mean-spirited exercise is that some people watch it and think that Paul is under the impression I'm just making his movie, which he never was. and think that Paul is under the impression I'm just making his movie, which he never was.

He had written this book. He had adapted the book into this screenplay, and the idea was always, the idea that I proposed to him was to shoot selected scenes from his screenplay, and then he wrote spinoffs and sequels, shoot bits and pieces of those. Oh, so there's the book, the screenplay, and then the spinoffs. The spinoffs. He wrote many spinoff series. Full series or just scripts?

He wrote scripts. He wrote books. He adapted those into scripts. And the idea was, you know, this is always a documentary that would include, you know, interviews with him. That would include interviews with real people involved. That would include this behind-the-scenes element of us making the show. He was always on board with that. So he's doing the work, and that must have impressed you as well, that he's writing. He's writing, yeah. He's written, I mean, he's written more than most and that must have impressed you as well, that he's writing. He's writing, yeah. He's written more than most people I know who call themselves writers.

He's written and written. When do you involve other actors? Was that always part of it? That was the idea. My original idea was I think if you took this guy, untrained mind, this is his expression of how he wants his life seen. So we shoot these scenes almost like taking a camera inside his mind basically and the idea was to get good actors you know good character actors you know recognizable actors and you know production value and shoot it and light it make

it look good make it feel as real as possible not shoot it ironically not shoot it for comedy and let him you know be the center of it and really just see how does he want his life portrayed you know the parts that happen and the parts that it and really just see how does he want his life portrayed. The parts that happen and the parts that maybe didn't happen, the parts that he wishes happened, and see what it reveals. And so basically I took him out in 2014. We did auditions with actors

to see what it would be like, real actors and him. And I hadn't suggested yet that he star in it. And in that process, he just started talking to the camera. He said, what do you think of that? He's like, maybe I can star in it. I kind of let him arrive there on his own. And basically anything I wanted to do, he ultimately did kind of get there on his own. And I wanted to make sure, you know, he was on board that I didn't just kind of come at him with this pitch for this series.

Right. Because then you have these different levels where, you know, whether or not you don't think from the get go that he believed what he wrote in duplicity was true or you do. I believe, I believe, yeah, he absolutely believed all of it, except the parts that he admits in the show are embellishments. There are certain scenes he spices up because he thought it would make them more interesting. And we go into that in the show. We kind of pick it apart. But the kind of big story absolutely was never he was never lying

uh i believe you know he believed all of it huh so did you know at the beginning of the process that eventually you were going to have to um reveal him to be delusional i didn't know what the truth was until the very end i didn't want to know you know i wanted to shoot this stuff almost kind of was until the very end. I didn't want to know. You know, I wanted to shoot this stuff almost kind of to protect the show. I thought if we went to Florida, we started knocking on doors. We found these real people. They start threatening to sue us.

The show gets shut down. We never get to shoot it. But you couldn't talk. The woman who took him. Yes. You couldn't talk to her. We tried to. Right.

We reached out to her. We eventually got in contact with her through a family member who told us, you know, she doesn't want to be involved. She's not interested, which is great. But you were able to get hold of the psychic who was originally a pet psychic that he somehow, you know, found and was, you know, actually guiding him. he somehow found and was actually guiding him. It seemed like some of the decisions he was making were specifically and only because she said to. Yes, he got involved with a pet psychic who also moonlights as a human psychic and was kind of encouraging him,

this is your mission, Paul. You need to bring down this ring. You need to get her. You need to get these guys. And I think was really kind of a key figure in kind of pushing him. And you also had people portraying these people. You talk, you eventually talked to Cadillac, the quote unquote pimp. And then, you know, you talk to these other private investigators and, you know, and then you also presented fictional versions of his lawyer and the psychic and Cadillac and the woman that took advantage of

him and his son and his first wife. So there were two worlds going on that, you know, one he had control over because he was scripting it. Right. And the other, you know, was countering that. Because as the series went on, it became clear that a lot of people who were around his life were sort of like, he's a weird guy. And like, you know, like the intensity of them kind of like, look, he's not a bad guy. He just. Well, that was interesting because everyone who knows him does feel exactly like that. Everyone generally likes him. He was lovely.

Like all the actors on set really did like him. It's just sort of one of these, you've known people like that. He's like a little crazy. He's not hurting anybody. He's a character. He's a handful. He's always tenacious. He's always texting me in the middle of the night.

Yeah, he's like one of those people, but not a bad guy. But I thought what I walked away from, the big thing that kind of affected me was what it said about show business. I walked away from the big thing that kind of affected me was what it said about show business. I mean, you were dealing with, you know, actors that we all know, you know, people we've seen, you know, Dennis Haysbert, is that how you say his last name? Sure, yeah. Melinda McGraw, that Christopher Stanley guy, he played the lawyer, is that right? Yeah, the lawyer, yeah. Who was in Mad Men. He was in Mad Men.

He played, yeah, January's second husband. Yep. He was a lawyer, yeah. He was in Mad Men. He played January's second husband. And also the guy who was in Black Mass, the guy who, did he play Cadillac? Oh, yeah, Earl Brown. Yeah, yeah. He's great.

Frank Grillo's in it. Grillo, yeah. Josh Pais. Yeah, incredible. Who played basically Finkelman. Yeah. That adjustment he makes, you know, when Paul is upset that he's not quite

getting him right and he immediately makes this adjustment with the mouth and the phrasing, you're like, oh my God, this is amazing.

He's amazing. Yeah, that was a crazy moment. But what I walked away from it is it was interesting to me how the actors executed what he was writing

because he was obviously writing in a way that comes from watching a lot of the shows that he was writing, because he was obviously writing in a way that comes from watching a lot of the shows that he was sort of trying to create, whether it was a procedural or however you work at a crime. And and the actors just showed up and did their jobs. And it came off exactly like those shows. Yeah, well, he made he made his reality into one of those shows, basically, is like he was like, oh, I'm in, I'm a hero in a crime show in Law & Order or whatever. So he was like, I better go to the FBI.

He's someone who I think watching movies in the 70s and 80s and watching these TV shows shaped the narrative of his reality that he made for himself. And then this was kind of a process of bringing that back into, yeah, feeling like an actual show. of a process of bringing that back into, yeah, feeling like an actual show. Well, that was what was sort of the interesting thing for me was that, you know, these bits and pieces of these parts of these shows that he was generating, these scenes you shot with these real actors were just as good as any type of show like that. You know, outside of his presence in them, the dialogue in the way it was constructed and the way they acted it, it says something about the nature of that type of acting. And not so much that type of show, because those go on and on.

Soap operas are soap operas, and Unfolding Series is Unfolding Series. But just the fact that these actors showed up for work, and it was not unlike any work that they do. Yes, no, I'm so happy to hear you say that. Actually, you're the only person who said that. I've always believed it, is that his scripts are not notable. was never a so bad it's good thing this is like his scripts are not worse than most of the boilerplate stuff that gets made that's right yeah and and i thought that it within that reality with that the the actors don't don't look bad no but what what

takes a shot is is the mediocrocrity of a genre and certain styles. No, it's more of an attack on the mediocrity of everything or most things people like and watch than it is on Paul or any of his writing. It's like, yeah, I thought if you put talented actors in this and made it look like one of these shows, it would just feel like that. And then it is, yeah, placing this kind of wildcard element of him in the middle of it and hoping something interesting happens. But that was absolutely what I was trying to do. Yeah. And I think because like the idea of recreations and that sort of element of crime documentary, I mean, that stuff, there's no other way to do it than how you did it. So in a sense, that stuff has its own integrity because that's what those shows are. If you like

them, you like them. But if you like them, you realize the reenactments are what they are and you're compelled by this story unfolding. But genre-wise and structurally, you honored that particular form, right? Yeah, that was the idea. That was the hope, yeah. Right. So that comes through. But putting Paul at the center of these scripted pieces with these real actors, to me it felt like you were definitely getting some sort of revenge.

Against who? Against your nature of television, of what we – because, I mean, you're a guy. I remember talking to you and talking to you that you decided at some point that acting was kind of ridiculous. I don't know if it's ridiculous. I mean, I stopped acting when I was 12. Yeah, I mean, acting is cruel. I feel like I felt very powerless when I was acting as a child.

Probably more just in that environment and being surrounded by adults. And it does kind of fuck you up or it kind of sets you in this. But that on top of being a shill for your father, the magician. And that painful story you kind of told us in a side where you were on a shoot for a Pop Rocks commercial. Oh, God, yeah.

What was this? And they asked for volunteers. Oh, and I raised my hand and they were like, all right, you can go home. Yeah. And then I just remember the tri-phone. I mean, I had the best parents and they were never mad at me, but I was like, why did I raise my hand there? It gives you a fundamental distrust of show business, in a way, of the industry. Oh, yeah, absolutely.

I mean, I think kids shouldn't act. I think it should be CGI or something at this point. I think it's damaging for children, but also people. Yeah, I mean, in many ways, this is a love letter to actors and acting. Right. Because you could see, you could throw them in and give them this material, and these actors are just elevated. Totally showed up. It's crazy.

But it is a type of acting. You know, all of them have done movies. But to do, you know, whether it's sitcom or these type of scripts, you know, procedurals or crime dramas, I mean, it's not how people talk. So in order to give them some sort of credibility or to even move the story forward, there's a way of acting that stuff. Yes. And then you have this nebbishy weirdo in there

who obviously sees himself in these genre pieces and has watched plenty of them, doing his best to be that guy, you sort of not only realize that there is sort of a craft and a skill to acting, but you also realize the kind of limitations to his fantasy. Yeah, I mean, I think he does get better. He gets more, he's very awkward in the first episode but

by the time you're watching the fourth and fifth that you're not really laughing at how um off he is in these scenes i feel like he does he picked up things he realized you don't have to you don't do anything when you're acting acting is just kind of being and what and like you know you just kind of approach the material you just do it and when i sit in there's a scene in the fifth episode where i have to sit down. I'm a much worse actor than he is in that scene. I'm extremely awkward on camera and self-conscious. I feel like he got better at it. Yeah, but it was like, I'm just flashing back to that show.

Do you remember that show? Who hosted it? Don Adams? Was it Don Adams' Screen Test? Oh, I don't know this show. No. Am I making that up? I don't know this show. Am I making that up? I don't know. Where they would literally have scenes

from movies and they'd have people playing the scenes. Now I gotta look it up. This sounds incredible. I've never heard of this show. Like regular people. Like I just remember there was a scene from the African Queen where they'd have the pool and they'd shoot it

like they're both in the water. Catherine Hepburn. Hold on a minute. Oh my God. This show needs a reboot. Don Adams screen test. What year? Okay. 1975. I guess it was a game show.

Hold on. Because it just came up. The game involves two 15-minute periods in which a random person would be asked to act or reenact a famous Hollywood movie scene, such as the race scene from the 1964 movie Viva Las Vegas. They would then be helped out by Adams and guest celebrities who appeared on the show. Usually, Adams would direct. However, on occasion, he would act along with the contestants and the guest celebrity, and another celebrity would direct. Blunders such as forgotten lines, failures of props, and celebrities ad-libbing would provide additional comedy. This is very much like my show.

A second contestant would do the same. At the end, both contestants would see their screen tests, and the contestant whose screen test was judged to be better by a well-known director, different for each episode, was declared the winner and given a walk-on part on an upcoming movie or television show. Wow. I've never heard or television show. Wow. I've never heard of that show. That's incredible. It sounds very similar. So mine was like that meets The Jinx or whatever. Yeah.

I'm wondering how long an episode's status. The series is held in its entirety, including an hour-long pilot taped May 16, 1975, by Universal Television, but has not been seen since its original airing. So it's not on YouTube or anything. How the fuck did I just remember that? I've never heard of this show. I remember from watching it, clearly, because it was a scene, like the one I have in my mind is a scene from African Queen

when Hepburn and Bogart both end up in the water. And they put another person in? They're just a regular person and some actor. Wait, so they're not cutting with the movie? No, they're literally shooting it within a studio. They're just redoing the scene. Right, but they do it. So you see them setting it up and everything,

but when you see the actual scene, it's cut so you don't see the studio or anything. It looks like the scene. Yeah, this sounds very similar to what I was trying to say. Well, I'm not accusing you of anything. No, that's amazing. But the weird thing is, is that it is not, you know, it's not out. You know, I remember that just now from memory.

I'd never heard of it. I wonder if maybe the Paley Center or one of these places that archive shows you could find it. But nonetheless, let's get back to your thing. I'm just I'm so happy my brain works sometimes. And that I remember it was Don Adams' screen test. It must have had a profound effect on me at some point. So, but ultimately, I was kind of wavering in watching this in terms of what was the critique of acting and of TV and the nature of it. Because I really think that you somehow

let the actors off the hook, but eviscerate procedurals and crime thrillers. That's good. I mean, that was, yeah, that's a subtle aim of this. But a lot of people were watching and saying, oh yeah, this is just, this guy should never have written this. This is terrible.

This stuff is not notably worse than procedurals that are, that more people watch than anything that you or I. Yeah. And because you're doing things simultaneously behind the scenes and you're seeing him engage with these actors and you sort of realize the strange job of acting and, and also how actors handle themselves off screen. They're all sort of game,

but like when they are curious, they're going to defer to you or Paul because that's the nature of their job. And it seems like some of them didn't really know what they were involved in. You know, I zoomed with all of the bigger actors who came in and really tried to talk them through it. I didn't want it to feel like a prank. I didn't want it to feel like they were being ambushed. But I also told them, yeah, it's going to be awkward and uncomfortable. We'll see what happens.

We'll see what we get. That bit between Grillo and him talking about dating was hilarious. Yeah, there's much more of that. Yeah, I mean, Grillo was, you know, Paul had written an action guy to come show up and train him how to be an action hero. And Frank Grillo was the first person I thought of. He's the guy who does all that. Sure. A million movies.

And, yeah, he was great. And they all knew we were filming, you know, off camera, off set. But the professionalism of the actors was stunning. Like, you know, the fact that they were all so seasoned and so familiar with television or how to act. I mean, I think there is a way to act on television that is not movie acting. Yeah, and I didn't have to give the actors a single note, really, on any of this. I mean, I let Paul direct however he wanted to change the performance. But, yeah, the good actors, they just come and they do it.

They know how to do it. Yeah, it was great. But it also said a lot about, like, you lot about garbage TV. Yes, which most people don't think of as garbage TV, but- Well, TV has always been garbage. It is, yeah. So to heighten it, it's a rare thing really from back in the day. When you have a mode or a genre or something that is- I talked to somebody yesterday that said, when you're in New York, actors say you can't go to LA until you do at least one law and order. The fact that that somehow writes a passage, that there's enough of those kinds of fucking shows to where you got to get one and it's not a big deal.

Anyone could do it. Right. Well, yeah. And probably it brings you down is like, yeah, this is how you act on a law and order. And then you could take that to come out here and do an NCIS or do whatever. And like, yeah, there is that style of acting where everyone just knows the the moves but what was like how did the end game change you know from inception to you know the the arc of the show the idea of the end game you know the last episode is it goes into a lot of these spinoffs that he

wrote and that he wanted to shoot kind of demo scenes of to try to get those going. And then the plan was always to find the real people as much as we could, get the truth as best we could, then present it to him and see how he reacted if it didn't align with what he believed. And a lot of it was just kind of luck and hope. We went to Florida. We found out a lot. And I presented it to him. Because it all happened in Florida. It all happened in West Palm Beach area, Florida.

And then, yeah, I showed him, here's the guy we found. Here's his version of it. I believe him or I don't believe him. And see how Paul reacted. And then I also wanted to see, once I showed him the finished show, which he always knew this format, but obviously there were choices in it that I was always going to make that he wouldn't have made about including awkward moments

and the way I put it together. And just see how he reacted to it that was that was the plan for the end but but like it seems to me that like you know because he's he's as weirdly kind of uh innocent or naive or vulnerable as he may be and and in his particular style of the kind of loser guy, you know, like him sitting out there on his porch cold calling for an insurance company. And that's his job. And he can't even go to the bathroom on his own porch because the monitor on the computer software says, like, why aren't you doing your job? Was kind of the most revealing moment. Yeah, I think so. I think that's like the saddest moment in the show.

And where it's like, this is his life without any bells and whistles, without any kind of, you know, allowing him to engage in like fantasy and bringing it to screen. This is like his, this was at the time that was his day-to-day life. And maybe you see, oh, I see the appeal of creating this rich fantasy world and living in this action hero world where this is your life. But you're allowing him to have it and he gets caught up in it.

So that becomes sort of the interesting thing as well. Because when he's talking about, when he's trying to sell the real story of the international prostitution ring and child trafficking, it starts to break down. prostitution ring and child trafficking, it starts to break down. But what you're left with is a jilted, angry guy that doesn't really know how to deal with being taken advantage of like that and being a sucker. And in that, he does reveal himself to be limited in his understanding of women, slightly misogynistic, not very very misogynistic. For sure, yeah. But because he's such a doof, you know, there's part of you that's sort of like, well, you know, okay.

But nonetheless, it is real. Like, if you're looking at the arc as a transformative experience where, you know, you start out with this character who you've given the liberty to play all these parts and be who he is

and execute these fantasies, that, you know, the only, the idea is that someone changes right and the only change you really get is the moment after the screening backstage where you ask him what do you think and it and it's clear that you know he was seen and and he he just says well well, yeah, I wasn't what I... You know, I don't know if in that moment, I mean, he seems different in that moment, especially if he's a cartoon character in the beginning, and at the end, you're seeing, you know,

on one hand, he's saying, well, it was my face up there, so you take that, it's like, well, it doesn't matter, I'm kind of famous now, and I got that, and that's what I wanted the whole time, or, you know, there's another version of it, and it's like, well, it's, yeah, it's kind of, it's not all positive, but it's real. I'm a real person and it's my story.

There's a way to look at that scene where he is just doing what he's done the whole time, which is just taking what reality is handing him and shaping it into a simple story that allows him to move on to the next day and kind of live, which is, you know, well, I got what I wanted out of it. And, you know, I can move on now and keep going. Yeah, I just talked to somebody about something like it is.

It has to do with, you know, our ability to compartmentalize and rationalize its psychological survival. Yes. and rationalize. It's psychological survival. Yes. And, you know, he's making these adjustments because he knows ultimately, I think that once all this is over, you know, maybe he'll sell a few books, but, you know, and it's not going to change his life in a lasting way other than he can text you now. He's been texting me for a long time. And what's his job now? He's doing cameos. He's selling books. He's selling t-shirts. He's, you know,

still pushing these spinoffs. He's making a living in show business now? He's not. I don't know how much money he's making off this, but he's still pushing. He's still trying.

He's not cold calling as an insurance guy? He's not doing that right now. You know, he wrote, you know, he wants to host SNL. He wrote a monologue he sent to me. I said, I'll send it

to my friends at SNL. I think that's a long shot. This whole thing was a long shot. You know, it didn't happen. It's not like someone swooped in and said, I'm going to make the movie, the exact movie he wrote. But what he was able to get done through me, through this thing, is a lot more than I think he, you know, could have reasonably expected. But it's sort of like, you know, it also reminds me of, in a sense of like, you know, like I just rewatched American Movie, right? And, you know, the one guy passed away, I guess.

Oh, yeah, yeah. But I don't know what happened to the director. Do you? Mark Borchardt, I think he's just still going. I think he, you know, I'm friends with Chris Smith who directed that. And he told me that they still remain in touch and they check in. And, yeah, I think he just kind of – I don't know if he's as driven or as focused as he was, you know, whenever they made that 15 years ago or more. But I don't think he's given up. No, I don't think Paul will give up.

Yeah, I know. But is that a good thing or do you care? I mean, like, do you ever feel like, you know, you just – you of like stoke these fires and you made a monster and now he's all excited. But in your heart and in the hearts of everyone who watched it, you think like, well, I mean, this doesn't end well. But but then you're tempering it somehow because of your relationship with him around his what you think his expectations are and his self-awareness around it is. But did you set him on this journey to sort of fortify this delusion? He was on this journey before I met him. Okay. He had written these spin-offs. So you washed your hands often. No, I definitely brought him along much further than had I just left him alone. But he had written

all these spin-offs. He had written these scripts. He was doing this full-time. He was pushing this full-time. So my involvement took him in a direction that has, yeah, a certain result. That's the result we're working on now. I have no idea where it goes in the future. I don't think it's impossible that he would get something else going from this. Like what? I think get someone to make more of this stuff. Really?

I don't think it's impossible. I don't know if Peacock's going to do it. Well, maybe someone should do a documentary on your belief in this guy. Well, I mean, even that I got this done, that I walked into every streamer out there and after 10 years got someone to pay for it, is as delusional as anything I think Paul was trying to do, like in terms of what else is out there. But how do you feel about it in retrospect? I mean, how do you – like, you know, do you, obviously we talked about a few of the levels we worked on. How's the psychic? Does she feel, is she okay?

Is everybody that you. Oh, the psychic's not a fan of mine anymore. No, I completely threw her under the bus in the last episode. And I knew that. You know, I didn't go into this knowing that. I went into it. She was lovely. We had a nice time at her house.

And then it was in the editing the last few months, listening to 11 hours of phone calls, this picture emerged of like, oh, I think she was manipulating him. I think she was being reckless and watching the footage. It's like, oh, this is kind of fanciful when she's imagining

how the ex-wife killed her parents. I think it has no, no relation to the truth. And I think it's reckless. And I felt responsibility to put that on the show. But oddly,

it's like, it's no different than Paul, you know, and no different than you to a certain degree. Sure. That, you know, you no different than you to a certain degree. Sure. That, you know, you're making these decisions that, well, it's different than you. But your realization of that is that they're kindred spirits.

You can just generate whatever the fuck you want as a narrative that makes you feel okay in your life. Absolutely. That was the big question of me doing this is at what point is that harmful? Is like everyone's living in their own reality. A lot of times it doesn't align with facts. With Paul's case, it really didn't align with facts. At what point does it become dangerous when we're living so far from objective reality? Because you could walk around picturing yourself as an action hero and it does no harm.

When you're accusing innocent people of murder maybe that's harm when you're you know putting a guy's face on the internet and saying this is sex trafficker and he's a lovely you know missionary but this is what politics is now yes i mean like you know as a metaphor for you know what people will believe and how that's exploited in terms of of creating you know mass uh uh what would you call it, fanaticism. Sure. Is exactly how propaganda works. Well, even, right, and you pick the evilest thing, child sex trafficking. It's hard to argue with because it does exist, but you can throw it out there with no evidence or whatever.

Get people riled up. Through that, get elected. Pass bills that do harm. Yeah, they're actual, they're real-world examples of using this type of thing to make the world a worse place. So, yeah, but that's interesting because, you know, without really intending, that is part of the thing you're exploring. Yeah, I mean, no, that was intentional to be like, okay, I found a person who in many ways

is kind of living in his own head, living in a fantasy world. He didn't believe he's an action hero, but he's mentally there. When he's coming up with these stories, he's decided to live in a more exciting reality than the one reality. But that's just being a writer.

But for somebody like the psychic to sort of lock into this idea that she's actually a psychic and then to say to this guy that, you know, that his ex-wife is killing people or whatever. Right. And this guy's vulnerable enough and, you know, sort of lost in his own fantasy to justify his hurt feelings, you know, believes it. That does make her sort of different than you because you're kind of struggling to balance all this. And she's just driving this guy to what? I mean, theoretically.

Yeah, I hope so. I hope so. Well, theoretically, she could have been like, you need to kill her. You need to kill her. Well, she was saying, you need to go to the cops. You need to bring her down. She kept saying, you need to bring them down. And he did go to the cops.

This guy's wandering around, all that FBI stuff. I mean, because you know, like, you know, anybody who listened to that guy, you know, with any experience was like, all right, just let him go. You know, well, that's in the book. You can feel I mean, he puts that you can feel the cop rolling his eyes at him. You feel the FBI. I feel people humoring him. And but yeah, if you set someone like that who can be easily kind of spun out on a path that is dangerous. Yeah, absolutely.

And and now. So how did this because in the middle of this, you did the Borat dangerous. Yeah, absolutely. And now, so how did this, because in the middle of this, you did the Borat movie. Yeah, yeah. Did this inform anything? Did you learn anything new from dealing with the kind of chaos

you were putting yourself through with the Goldman project? I learned a lot from working with Sasha that I did wind up applying to this in terms of, yeah, creating a situation where you're allowing for chaos and then just documenting that. And also, the way he works, applying to this in terms of yet creating a situation where you're allowing for chaos and

just documenting that um and also the way he works yeah it's just creating the most chaotic situation possible yeah and having a good team that can kind of follow wherever it's going and but but but able to like different than borat i don't think you you got to the point where your life was in danger or necessarily than anyone else's was, or that, you know, that the chaos could, you know, not, I mean, you had to shoot this with Sasha. And it just seems that there were situations there with real people that were profoundly disturbing. And there wasn't an empathetic consideration in the same way as the Goldman project. There was in terms of certain parts of the movie,

we had a babysitter character. We wanted to show someone being kind and patient and good. We had these two conspiracy guys that we were really hoping to not just vilify these guys, to kind of see, oh, these are misguided guys who believe what they've been told by politicians but are not bad people. And then there was Rudy Giuliani. So he had to come and fuck them. Yeah, yeah, exactly. I get it, so you balanced it. Yeah, yeah then there was rudy giuliani and like yeah so he had to come

and fuck yeah yeah exactly yeah i get it so you balanced it yeah yeah yeah there was a balance there and there was a lot of he was just tucking in his shirt do you think he was getting ready for something no i was i was there it was it all happened i mean we were hidden behind a wall no i know that but what was he think he was he was he lied down on the bed and he was ready definitely flirting with the yeah he was like he was ready to... He was definitely flirting with the... He was ready to get a blowjob. I mean, we ran in there before, you know,

we weren't shooting a porn or actually trying to, you know, extort him or whatever. But... You stopped. Yeah, no, it was all,

it all happened. Yeah. When that was happening, were you like, oh, fuck. Oh, yeah, my jaw was like on the floor.

I was, we were in a hotel suite and in one room we had turned to a secret control room. Sasha was hiding behind. We built a cabinet into a closet. I brought Rudy up on the elevator and went to go hide, and he had like an eight-foot-tall security guard that asked if there was anyone else in the room,

and I looked him in the eyes and said no and disappeared. And then they changed the locks on the room. They kept all our equipment for two days they thought it was like some foreign government trying to uh you know black man i set him up yeah and uh there were seven cop cars there within like a couple minutes and i just ran i just ran uptown 20 blocks uh and we fled we fled the country the next day so uh do you think any in the way your brain works comedically do you think any of it was influenced by you know being your dad's shill in a magic show yeah i i never did before a couple weeks ago i was talking to my wife and and made that connection of just how i came i never believed

magic was real i didn't understand i only came to understand like a couple weeks ago that kids think magic is real. Because from my earliest memories, no, it's a trick. It's a craft. It's like, no, you're tricking people. You do this. It's like the rabbit that he pulls out of the hat was our pet bunny rabbit. We had two doves and two bunnies. And so I knew everything was a trick from my earliest memories uh yeah and

i would be the plant in the audience and go up and show them up and uh i never considered that but i think it did kind of shape uh yeah it's a i'm lucky i'm not i'm not a con artist because i did yeah just right everyone's everyone uh is a rube everyone's meant to be tricked. Well, yeah. And Finkelman is the king of rubes. Well, yeah. And that was my. But he's an empowered rube. He's an empowered rube. You empowered the rube.

Well, that's my conflict on this is I genuinely like him. on crime docu-series, on the nature of acting versus not acting, on narrative versus delusion. Yeah, and true crime, and kind of looking into that. And yeah, I tried just to kind of rip a lot of curtains back. Yeah, you fucked all the magicians, man. You showed them and all the magicians, man. You showed them. And all the actors.

But everybody, like, what were the actors' responses? We see Paul's response backstage after the screening. After everything was done, how did the actors feel? They seemed positive. The ones I've talked to sent me nice notes. You know, I think they, you know, there were a few reviews that came out that did feel like, oh, this is a mean-spirited project. This is, he tricked this guy.

I was like, I didn't trick this guy. But I think, I'm sure the actors were like, for a moment, some of them were like, oh, was I tricked? Was I involved in a thing that was like a hurtful thing? That was hurtful. But the weird thing is,

I think your instinct was that, you know, like that you knew on some level that this guy was such a rube that he was just going to be excited to be able to keep doing what he's doing. Whatever position he was in is that after all is said and done, he's like, well, now I can really sell the book

and I've got t-shirts. I don't think that's about being a rube as much as he was driven. That's the word I want. And this was 10 years ago. This was before influencer culture, before people talked about their brand. But this is all so common now where it's like I'm pushing myself. The product is me. But I think that's right, and I didn't mischaracterize it,

is that you knew his drive and his ambition, and whether it was real or not in the long run wasn't going to matter that's right and it didn't matter to him because it was just grist for the mill he had you know he had a shirt made on the back it says what a schmuck he was going to wear that giving speaking engagements like oh when when people laugh at him to him that's another angle to market himself and it's like oh this is a guy that his drive is this is to tell everyone his story is to get in front of as many people as possible say say, this is my story. If it involves some people laughing at him or him looking like an idiot sometimes, I felt very confident from the very beginning that that was going to be okay with him.

Oh, good. And maybe that is me manipulating him. But I thought it was worth it. It takes two to tango. He's not innocent. Yeah. Good talking to you, man. Thanks, Mark.

Okay, there you go. So does that prime your pump? Does that explain anything if you watch Fawlty Goldman? And if you haven't, are you ready to jump in? It's streaming on Peacock. Okay, people, hang out for a second. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing.

With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative.

is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead

courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. If you want to hear more about the documentary Jason and I were talking about, American Movie, we have a new episode in the full marron with me and Brendan talking about it for 50 minutes. You know what'd be a great double feature is this and hearts of darkness totally it's like it's like it's two versions of this yin and yang almost yeah well then we we got to talk about especially because of the way we opened this up the second set piece comedic set piece of this movie again a thing i

laughed at when it was happening so much i was losing breath yeah and this is um while he's in the process of doing adr for the film yeah he goes to uncle bill's house apparently uncle bill has played a small role in the film in fact in the opening scene of the film yeah and keeps telling him that it's the opening scene yeah yes he's like it's got to be on the money this is the first line of the movie yeah and the first line of the movie is supposed to be uncle bill saying it's all right it's okay there's something to live for jesus told me so for some reason this takes 31 takes and then you see that he's showing the exasperated bill he's like no no yeah well my

favorite thing is that on take one they should give a shot of mark and he knows he's fucked he knows this is totally fucked but he's indomitable his the spirit that he has through this whole thing he is he even as hopeless as this seems to get uncle bill to say these words they are going to do it they're going to do it until what happens where uncle bill just shuts it down and he's like i'm done i'm not doing any more of these because yeah and they all start to sound the same like it's all right it's okay he somehow starts to mangle it and starts to like put the first part last and it told me at one party he tells him this shit is shits for the birds ever since i've seen this movie i've said that all the rest of my life like

something not going right this shit is shits for the birds you can hear the whole discussion about American movie with a full Marin subscription. And that's also how you can hear my 2013 episode with Jason Walner, which is available only in the WTF plus archives to sign up, go to the link in the episode description or go to WTF pod.com and click on WTF plus next week on Monday. I talk with the inimitable,

amazing, mythic, Laurie Anderson. Yes, Laurie Anderson. It was a very interesting conversation because it was very present and very, you know, I don't know if we talked about her career that much.

We talked about Lou Reed a bit. We talked about art a bit. We career that much. We talked about Lou Reed a bit. We talked about art a bit. We talked about meditation. We talked about Tai Chi. She's out with a book that Lou wrote about Tai Chi and other meditative arts. But it was certainly a pleasure because she had a profound impact on my life. And here's some guitar from the vault, I guess, because I'm not home. We'll see you next time.