WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1419 - Laurie Anderson

Episode Date: March 20, 2023

Laurie Anderson says she never made art to express herself, she didn’t care about having a “style,” and she sure didn’t think about building a “brand.” Laurie and Marc talk about her time in New York City as part of a booming art scene, her days hanging with Andy Kaufman, and her many musical collaborations. They also discuss Laurie’s role as the steward of Lou Reed’s legacy, including the new book she helped edit of Lou’s writing on Tai Chi.Please click here to take our audience survey. It’s our best way to get to know our listeners!Click here to Ask Marc Anything and Marc might answer your question in WTF+ bonus content. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening i'm mark maron how are you is everything okay are you all right laurie anderson is here today. Laurie Anderson. Now, I don't know how old you are or who's listening to this, but Laurie Anderson, for me, was pretty important as an artist and as somebody who represented that world of art.

And she was one of the people that kind of broke through. Was it even that first record? Was it Big Science? I'm trying to, you know, it's like, I remember having that record in high school. It was big science came out in 1982. So I will, I will have just, huh. I would have just graduated high school. So, you know, my brain was wide open. It remains more open than I'd like it to be, to be honest with you. But it just went in there. The idea of her, the idea of coming out of that New York art scene, the idea of that New

York art scene. I mean, she was a portal, one of the many portals into Philip Glass, into experimental music, into what became my obsession with Brian Eno. I can't remember whether or not the guy at the record store next door turned me on to her, but I remember listening to that album a lot. And then Mr. Heartbreak afterwards, there was something funny about it. There was something compressed and witty and, and totally unique about the sound of her voice, about the sounds that she was using. And then you kind of just grow up with these people being around and she's done so much other stuff, visual arts. She's done, you know, poetry, she's done records with other people. She's, I just, I, when I was going through this, I found this, uh, this record of her dealing with,

you know, I think it was, it was a meditative record, a meditation record songs from the Bardo. That's crazy stuff. She's still at added. She's still occupying this space. And as many of you know, she was married to Lou Reed. And as many of us, you know, tried to wrap our brain around that. If you were a big Lou fan and you were a big Lori fan, you were like, what is that about? I mean, obviously, I'm not going to get into that because Lou was Lou. But I was certainly honored and excited to talk to her. honored and excited to talk to her. She's actually here promoting a book that she just put together of Lou's writing on Tai Chi and other meditative practices. I guess he'd been writing for years

and never got it all together. Well, that's what she's out doing is talking about this book. It's called The Art of the Straight Line, My Tai Chi by Lou Reed. So she's here because she is the executor, I guess, or the, yeah, I mean, she's, I think she's got the Lou Reed stuff. I mean, she did a deal with Light in the Attic Records and they did some demo stuff from the late 60s, early 70s that was just exciting. But as an artist on her own, 70s that was just exciting. But as an artist on her own, man, just mind-blowing. She was one of the creative people that wired my brain. And you're going to find out some interesting stuff about her on this episode, stuff that I couldn't believe and didn't really know. We've talked to other people who were around New York in that time, you know, early in the 70s, where it was just a free-for-all.

It almost feels like it was some sort of artist compound in Tribeca and the Lower East Side and just lower Manhattan. But it kind of was. I mean, it's hard to picture New York as just this vacated, you know, dumpster fire. But that's where all that stuff sort of came up and there was a real community to it. And I've talked to other people who've grown up in that community. Some people who, who created, you know, Kim Gordon was on this show, but it was thrilling to talk to her. I have a favor to ask you people. If you go to the episode description of this show on whatever app you're using right now, we have a link there that says, take the new WTF listener survey. It's a quick survey and it will help us make decisions that

better serve you, the listeners. This is really the best way for us to know what works and what doesn't for our audience. So it would be a real big help to us if you just do it. It'll take about five to seven minutes. You can do it while you're listening. Just scroll to the episode description and click, take the new WTF survey. And while you're in the episode description, if you want to send a question for our next Ask Mark Anything episode, there's a link for that too. Okay. All right. So I don't know why, but I mean, stuff comes and goes and there's a lot of stuff out there that I miss, but there's some stuff that not unlike any other sucker in this fucking world,

I develop opinions about based on nothing, on nothing. And for some reason, I dismissed the film Amsterdam, the David O. Russell movie. I just was like, I just kind of didn't get to it. I got to Babylon, which was garbage, but I didn't get to David O. Russell's Amsterdam. And I don't know why. I didn't hear about it.

I didn't talk to anybody about it. But then I start to realize, like, who do I really fucking talk to? Who's in my social circle? I got Kit. I got Jerry. I got Brendan. I got a few people.

I got the people that come in and out of here for specific reasons. But like there is no sort of cultural momentum. If there isn't any cultural momentum around things in the world that I occupy, in the space that I occupy culturally, I don't know. It just got kind of dismissed. It just went by the wayside. A David O. Russell movie with fucking Christian Bale. And I just let it go by the wayside until I was on an airplane two days ago. And, uh,

I was like, all right, well, let's just figure out why this is so terrible. And I watched Amsterdam and it's kind of a little masterpiece. It's a socially relevant, complex film with complex characters about real stuff. It's a period piece that explores the beginning of American Nazi sympathizers. It also explores the arts of that time and what it meant to live an artist's life. It also explores biracial relationships at a time in this country where they were illegal. I mean, it takes place in between the two world wars. It deals with the sort of grotesque result of war.

And all these characters is a sort of slightly comedic bent to them. But this, it deals with eugenics. It deals with the corporate uh, the corporate supporters of fascism. I mean, and it's, it's all done in kind of a perky rompy way with these amazing performances by all of the actors in it. And I think I'm going to talk about it more specifically, maybe in some bonus content, but I'm going to start looking around for more movies. It's like that movie I talked about with Tim Blake Nilsson that he was in that

it just seems like, did anyone see them? I mean, everyone was yammering on about Babylon, which is garbage. And, and no one talked about Amsterdam, which was kind of a masterpiece in the same way. I will defend hail Caesar as one of the great Coen Brothers movies, I will defend Amsterdam as one of the great David O. Russell movies, probably the best one he's done since Silver Linings Playbook. I'm putting that out there

and I'm not trying to kiss his ass. I wouldn't mind having him on the show, but these guys, some of them just never come. They never come to the show. I invite them, they don't come. I'm not a miracle worker. I can't force people. So I took this job.

I took a job on a little part in a movie for Peacock called Bernard and the Genie. And it's a Christmas movie. And I took the job because it seemed fun. It seemed easy. It would allow me to make something out of nothing in a way and to just be funny. And Melissa McCarthy's in it. And I did a few scenes with her, but there was a lot of scenes with Papa Izidu. I'm not sure how you pronounce his last name, but he was in I May Destroy You.

But he was great. But just hanging out with Melissaissa mccarthy to do these scenes and there wasn't much on the page uh i play a door guy in this building um i guess because it's a remake i i'm not tipping anything it's about a guy who is having trouble uh because he's working too much and his wife and small daughter get annoyed. And he's having marital problems. So a series of events happens and he summons a genie and that genie is Melissa McCarthy. And I'm the door guy in this building. And me and Melissa develop a relationship over these four or five scenes I have.

But just to be on set with her, and I've talked to her in here, but we just connected and it was fun. She is one of the funniest fucking people in the world, like ever, just effortlessly funny. So I found myself just kind of hanging out, just waiting to laugh, you know, and I'm doing scenes with her and we're just riffing and we built out this character a little bit. And, uh, I'm just improvising, uh, with Melissa McCarthy. And I don't know, I was pretty casual about it.

I definitely, you know, see the, you know, she's just another funny person, but you're on set and you're doing this stuff. I had a good time. I had fun. I enjoyed doing it. I enjoy just being goofy, just being funny and riffing with Melissa McCarthy. I don't know why it takes me so much just to be like, I had a good time, man. And it's like, I can be funny. I have to assume I'm a funny person. I've been doing it for a long time, but it's just nice to be able to unleash it a little bit and then to do it in a kind of symbiotic riffy kind of way with Melissa McCarthy. Come on, man. How fucking great is that? Did I ever assume that would happen for me? No. So it's not a huge part, but it was a fun part. It was fun to be in New York for a few days. It was fun to wear a doorman's outfit and it was a fun part. It was fun to be in New York for a few days. It was fun to wear Doorman's outfit.

And it was fun to just be on set again. The guy Sam Boyd's directing it. He's a fan of this show. He pulled me in and he's like, come on, let's just do, you know, let's see what happens on set. And I'm like, okay, man, had a lot of ideas. Put them all out there.

We'll see what makes the cut. We'll see. But either way, good times. Three days, New York City. Stayed at the fancy hotel. Had a nice time. Ate some okay food. Hung out with my buddy Sam Lipsight for a day.

Basically just, you know, it was kind of weird. The entire spectrum of weather happened when I was in New York. It rained, it snowed, it got nice, it got windy. It was all there. So as I said before, Laurie Anderson had a profound impact on my life. Just hearing her in my headset while I talked to her was kind of mind blowing. It happens sometimes on this show. And you'll be surprised. She mentions a comic icon in a very personal way that she had a relationship with. And I was sort of like, holy shit, what? But she's here ostensibly to talk about The Art of the Straight Line, My Tai Chi by Lou Reed, which is a book that's available now wherever you get your books. Lori is one of the editors. I think she wrangled the whole thing to get it out, which Lou didn't manage to do while he was alive. So this is me talking to Lori Anderson. It's winter and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs, mozzarella balls, and arancini balls? Yes.

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T's and C's apply. You have plans for the apocalypse. What do you got? Well, I've been spending about a year going to different places. Yeah. To see where might be a good place. To stay above.

Iceland is one. Uh-huh. Greece is another. Greece? Yeah. Portugal's too crowded with Americans. I don't know that I, you know, people talk about that, like you can buy your way into Portugal. Yeah, you can.

But I don't speak Portuguese, and I feel, how would you not? You don't need to. You don't need to. Oh, really? You know, I have this hobby, just shopping for sheep farms, which I used to do in the 90s. When I was on tour, it was like a Sunday, and you're not playing. Yeah. What do you do?

You shop for sheep farms? Well, yeah, you go to the local real estate place. What do you do? You shop for sheep farms? Well, yeah. You go to the local real estate place and say, you know, are there any sheep farms around? I mean, I have no interest in sheep really. I just wanted to go driving around with a real estate person. So in Portugal, in 92, I was there and I saw, I was flipping through a brochure, real estate estate brochure, and it said sheep farms. Yeah. Well, actually, it said actually 10 acres, more or less 10 acres.

That's a lot of land. For $2,000. Yeah. So I called up the agent. I said, that's a typo, right? And they said, yeah, it is. It's $1,800. So I thought, I should buy a sheep farm for all

my friends. Did you? No. What a mistake. There was no water there. But you know what? It was so beautiful. It was like New Mexico, which is my favorite kind of landscape. I grew up there. You did? Lucky you. Magic. It is magic. Huge sky, all sky. Yeah. Where do you spend time when you go to New Mexico? Well, I haven't been there so much. Yeah. But, you know, some friends have, you know, around Taos.

Sure. Oh, yeah, Taos. Yeah. Yeah. But. So back to Portugal, the sheep farm? Back to Portugal. So there was no water.

Yeah. And no electricity. Yeah. You know, you could bring a truck in with some water. Generator. Yeah, generator's a call. Yeah. But it was like New Mexico on the ocean. So red dirt and cactus and pine trees on the Atlantic.

So that was the plan. But like now, I just think like just Canada. No. Well, it's warmer there now. Well, I just find that I used to find it boring, but now I find it relaxing. Boring is relaxing

these days. Yeah, right? Yeah. And I just know that if I go anywhere outside of this country, within seconds, I'm like,

oh my God, oh, my God. It's not here. Yeah. Whatever it is. But, you know, what do they think of this these days? I mean, it must be like living over a crack house or something. Oh, definitely. They're like, what is going on down there?

Yeah. How is this happening? How could it be? Yeah. But they're kind of used to that, I think. I guess. But to this degree, and it's creeping, you know, because whatever the psychic malignancy is. Does it creep over the border?

A little bit. Really? I mean, in factions, but you don't feel it, I think, culturally. I don't feel it until I get up to Montreal. I mean, Toronto, I feel the creep. You do, yeah. Yeah. It's right across.

Sure, right. And it feels a little more American there. I don't know what the plan is. I just need water. And I don't want to, I've been recently thinking about these people that want to survive the apocalypse, and I don't understand why. It's like I have a friend who's, she clones extinct animals. Really? Yeah. That's her company. And they're doing that? They are.

And have they had success? Yes, they have. And they're working on ferrets at the moment. Are ferrets extinct? They're going extinct. Certain ones of them. And so they're cloning them to bring them back. But, you know, for the big ones, like a woolly mammoth, what are you going to bring it back for?

Just to stand in a lab and go, I'm a woolly mammoth. We did it. Yeah, look at that thing. None of his friends are there, nothing to eat. It would be so sad. It's the saddest story. It's a children's book that can't end well. Children's books don't end well, generally.

You know, if you listen to lullabies, you know, Garcia Lorca, the beautiful guitar player, you know, anyway, wrote about lullabies and he said, you know, they are not comforting. These are mothers passing on some urgent dark messages to their children. Rock-a-bye, baby, in the trade trap. Yeah, yeah. When the bow breaks, the cradle will fall. Yeah, yeah. Down will come baby. Cradle in the Trey Trap. Yeah, yeah. When the bow breaks, the cradle will fall. Yeah, yeah. Down will come baby, cradle and all.

Yeah. Yeah. Good night. Good night. Twinkle, twinkle, little star, too. Yeah. You know, I just learned the second verse of that thing. When the blazing sun is gone.

Yeah. When there's nothing to shine upon. Yeah. Twinkle, twinkle, little star. It goes on from there. So we've all been prepared. It's not just religion. It's fairy tales and children's songs.

Yeah, our mother sang us this song. They were kind of trying to get us ready in a subtle way. Did your mother sing you that song? No, she did not. My mother did not sing anything. Exactly. What did she do? My mother?

Yeah. She was involved. No, she was very self-involved. So there was this sort of, like, you know. Telling stories to herself. I don't know what she was doing, but she was very concerned about her appearance. Okay. That was her job.

Did she look good? Yeah, she looked great. Well, bravo. How about you? What did your mother do? Oh, she had too many kids. I was just lost in the crowd. How many?

She had eight. Wow. So I was number two. And, you know. Was that Catholic? No. That's the first question everyone asks. Is it Catholic?

Yeah. Other people. She should have been a CEO. Yeah. Of something. Of children. She was the CEO of children. That's what she decided on.

It was a long down the list, but she did that. Yeah. So you have all these siblings around still? Yeah, they're around. Really? They're doing different stuff, yeah. And you get along? With most of them, yes.

Yeah. There's always one that's, you know. Yeah. And that one changes a little bit, you know. Oh, really? Comes and goes, yeah. But no, basically, you know, you're friends with all these people for life. That's really nice.

And you were the middle? I was number two. What about you? Did you have any sibs? Younger brother. Two and a half years. Very similar. A little different.

But, yeah. Are you competitive? No, we're not competitive. Wonderful. Good for you. No, we're not competitive. Wonderful. Good for you. Yeah, he was more athletic. And then I went the art way, he went the athletic way. Perfect, divide it up.

Sure, right when he beat me, the first time he beat me, I'm like, I'm out. I'm not doing that. I'm the artist here. I'm going to go figure out what Kerouac was talking about. Oh, did you figure that out? Not really. I think I romanticized it. I mean, I'm 59, so I came in kind of late.

You know? So they were all several generations back, but I like the idea of all of them. Yeah. To the point where I think I had the first album of yours I had was that one, You're the Man I Want to Spend the Rest of My Life With. You read that? Well, I have the album with you and Burroughs. Really? Burroughs and Vincerto? Yes.

You're the guy I want to share my money with. You're the guy I want to share my money with, yeah. Yeah. And I just, I became sort of obsessed with Burroughs. Yeah. And then you were on there. Yeah. And that was before you even made a record.

Yeah, I was hanging out with those guys. You were? Yeah. But, like, you were there in New York at the time where everything started to happen. Oh, things were happening before I came along. But I mean, that wave of like late 60s, 70s, weirdo art. That was cool. It was a really, really, really nice time to be an artist.

Where did you come from before that? Chicago. You were going to school there? Yeah. And you grew up there, kind of. Yeah. Big Skyland, also. Also like New Mexico.

Yeah. So you get to New York, and what's happening is before it fell apart, right? Yeah, it was falling apart. It's always falling apart. But didn't the 70s really kind of crash out? Yeah. Ford to New York City dropped dead was the headline. Right, that was out? Yeah. Ford to New York City dropped dead

was the headline. Right. That was it. Yeah. And everyone was getting like lofts in Tribeca for a nickel. It didn't cost a nickel.

It was free. That's better. That's what we did. You just squatted and took it? We were squatting. Yeah. Pretty much.

And then we had, speaking of no water, we had no water. It's hard to live with no water in New York City. What year are we talking? 74. Uh-huh. But you got there earlier.

I got there to go to Barnard in 67. Okay. And so it was really, the 60s really kind of rolled into the 70s in a lot of ways in terms of people helping each other and being sort of like communal and this kind of still sort of spiritual. Like just post hippie kind of thing? Yeah. Yeah. It was, yeah, there's still a few hippies around there. Sure.

Yeah. But I mean, I imagine it was mostly focused on the war in the late 60s in terms of the youth culture, and then it kind of shifted. Yeah, the war was part of it. Yeah. But love was part of it. Was it? Yeah. And you felt it?

Absolutely. Yeah. And you felt it? Absolutely. Yeah. Absolutely. And just being part of a group also. Yeah. So that was really cool. Yeah. And you could call somebody up and go, hey, I got to get my floor sanded.

Could you guys come over? And people would come over for three days and sand your floor. And you're like, we could try that today. There are plenty of sanding companies you could try. I mean, I'm like, we could try that today. There are plenty of sanding companies you could try. I mean, I'm like,

I don't have five minutes. I'm so busy. Right. But it was just something, it was a communal vibe. Yeah. And these were other artists and whatnot?

Yeah. Artist musicians. We all did a little bit of everything. We all had pickup trucks. Really? In the city? Yeah.

In the city because the city was dark, kind of deserted. You needed a truck. And this was way downtown kind of deal? Yeah. So dark, dark, dark, dark.

Really? One restaurant called Food. Yeah. Yeah. Was it good? Do you like stuff like hard-boiled eggs

with little tiny amoebas swimming in the oil? Amoebas on purpose? Yeah. No, I don't know what that is. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. What was the angle?

The angle was, you know. Was it supposed to be healthy or just? Yeah, like eating living stuff. Oh, yeah. Green stuff. Oh, yeah. Green stuff, fishy stuff. I don't know. I don't know what we were doing. We were just trying to make up weird things to eat.

But who was the crew down there at the beginning? Phil Glass, Tricia Brown, Gordon Matta-Clark. He was the ringleader of everything. Richard Nones. Yeah. A lot of just really great people. To me, that period is so amazing because there were such unique artists that never happened before, really. I mean, Philip Glass, you.

But I guess it's all before the Worcester Group and all that stuff, right? They were cranking up around it. Spalding was around. Yeah. And I can't imagine everybody as young people just feeling it out. Well, reel it back, you know. Yeah. Reel it back to your own life as a kid.

And I guess you had space, too, because if it was that deserted and that weird and New York was this sort of wild west frontier. You could also get shot, though. Sure. It wasn't shot, though. Sure. It wasn't all a party. Yeah. And also, it seems to me that from the beginning, despite the intention of art, that comedy was always sort of part of what you were doing. Well, I was a straight man for Andy Kaufman for a while. That was really fun.

Where did you meet him? A friend of mine said, and this was also right around that time, she said, there's this guy who's got to go out to Queens to this comedy club. In the 70s? Yeah. Comedy club. Early 70s. Yeah.

And you've got to check him out. Yeah. So I went to this club and really squalid little place. Was it like Pips or something? It probably didn't even have a name. It probably had a name, but it was in Queens? It wasn't even a comedy club. It was just a club.

So there was a guy playing bongos in this place. And it was a really long set. And bongos, you know, I don't know, they get a little tiring after a couple of minutes. Just solo bongos?

Solo bongo. Yeah. But then as he's playing these bongos, he had about maybe four different bongos, different pitches, and bongo, bongo, bongo.

Yeah. And as he's playing, his head sort of falls and some tears start rolling down his cheeks and he starts crying and then he's playing a little faster and he starts crying and he's sobbing

and then he's like, sobbing. And everyone in the club is like, what the hell? What's wrong with this guy? Yeah. And I was like, this is the greatest guy ever.

This is the funniest thing I have ever seen. Yeah. So I just said, who are you? Right. And so I did some stuff with him. Yeah. I would go to Coney Island and, you know, we would do stuff like stand around that test your strength with a sledgehammer. Hit it and the meter goes up to like.

So he would, we'd stand around. He'd make fun of people who were doing it. Like, what a guy. Provoke them? Yeah. Yeah. And I'm supposed to like, Andy, could you get me a bear? And he's, finally these guys get really sick of him and go, okay, pal, you give it a try.

Right. So he just, you know, and it goes up like not even one degree. Yeah. In the try again weakling level. Right. And he's going, I want to see the manager. This is fixed. This is an outrage. So then, I want to see the manager. This is fixed. This is an outrage. So then we have to go

see the manager. Anyway, it was just so much fun. And he was a real genius. He was really a genius. He just did all of these projects. And this is before anyone knew him. Like,

this is before he really started doing it. Oh, yeah. I don't know. Was he part of the scene or he was just this weirdo who lived in Queens? I mean, did you? Well, the scene, what was the, there wasn't a scene really. But it was like. These were experiments.

Right. And okay, so then eventually we did do stuff in some real, like a comedy club. And that would be, so other things were just things like we would go to also rides at Coney Island, you know, the one with the centrifugal force and everyone, the bottom drops off. Sure, the Tilt-A-Whirl or whatever. Yeah, it might be called Tilt-A-Whirl.

Anyway, so just as people are getting strapped in, he'd just go, I'm not confident about this ride. I really have a very, very, very bad feeling about the ride. And everyone's starting to sweat. And they stop it, you know, because everyone's freaking out. And other things. We would go to Madison Square Garden.

And this was before there were metal detectors or anything. You just show your tickets when you got inside. So he had no tickets. So he would just go tell the usher. We would sit down, you know, just courtside, basketball games or wrestling things, just down right where the action was, first row. Yeah.

And they'd come and go, tickets, please. And he'd go, oh, I just have a piece of paper because a guy on the street sold me for $200 ringside tickets. He said, I could sit here ringside. And the guy's going, you just paid $200. Yeah, I've just paid $200. You just get this guy to pity him. You let him sit there? Yeah.

And you go to wrestling, too? Well, what we did in clubs was he would part of it. Then he just started developing his act. Right. He was also writing this really beautiful book, which I don't know what happened to. Because he would come over and read it to me. What was it? A novel.

A crazy, crazy novel. How old was he? How old were you it? A novel. Really? A crazy, crazy novel. How old was he? How old were you guys? Like 21, 22? I don't know. 20s. In the 20s. Yeah?

You know? Something like that. And so then he got these things in clubs and he would just stand around saying, women just, you know, I just don't respect them. You know, I just have to say, on a physical level, let's say, too. You know, because I'll respect a woman when she can come up here and wrestle me down. And that was my cue. Yeah.

To come up and, hey, I'll take you on. I'm sitting there in the club just trembling, drinking four whiskeys in a row, just da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da. Do I have to do this? He would really fight, too. Really? Yeah. He wasn't just, I mean, he wasn't going to kill me,

but he was really twisting my arm. Yeah. He didn't show you any wrestling moves? I knew a few moves. So you guys were friends for a while, huh? Yeah, we were. Yeah. And didn't show you any wrestling moves? I knew a few moves, you know. So you guys were friends for a while, huh? Yeah, we were. Yeah. And did you— I loved him.

I loved Andy. Yeah. Well, it's interesting to talk to somebody that knew him before he became what everyone else knows him as, whether as a comic or as an actor. I mean, you knew him when he was basically just starting this weird stuff. He was dangerous. Yeah. And do you think that his sort of courage around that stuff influenced you?

Yeah, sure. Yeah. I mean, that was crack for me. I was like, yeah, who are you? It's just like, yeah, you did some really great stuff. So, yeah. And did you stay in touch with him? No, I didn't.

Once he started doing TV stuff, I was kind of like, no, no, no, come on. Oh, really? No, I didn't like that stuff. Really? Not really. I didn't think it was funny, you know? It was kind of a, it became such a sort of shtick. Right.

I was like, all right. Like the Laska stuff? Yeah, you know. I mean, it was sort of charming, I guess, but it wasn't like. Menacing. Oh, I liked the menace. Yeah. So who'd you lock on to after that?

I just got into a scene of, you know, downtown music. Yeah. I don't know. I guess we, at some point, everyone was calling what they did an opera. Uh-huh. For lack of a better word. You go down the street and you go, hey, how's your opera going? Fine, for lack of a better word. You'd go down the street and you'd go, hey, how's your opera going?

Fine, mine too. Yeah, okay. You know, none of us were making actually operas, you know, but we're just. What was your first big performance piece? Let's see. Big. Well, I mean. I did a lot of stuff in lofts. That's where I got my thing going.

Yeah, for a few people? Yeah. For eight people in a loft. Important stuff. Yeah. Yeah. And it was just stories. Yeah.

Yeah. And standing in front of film. I was doing film concerts or something. Right. Yeah. Well, that's sort of an evolution of that 60s thing. I mean, I still kind sort of thing. Right. Well, that's sort of an evolution of like that 60s thing. I mean, I still kind of do that. Yeah.

I just came from a – well, actually, I didn't – that wasn't a show like that. I just – on the way out here, went to Kansas City. Wow, what a beautiful place. Yeah. Played with an orchestra there. Wrote a thing for orchestra. for orchestra about Amelia Earhart. Really? Yeah.

And I hadn't been in Kansas in a long time, and I realized I could see why she wanted to fly. That's the only direction there. Yeah. That's it. She's from there, huh? Yeah. That's in Kansas. Yeah. Yeah. That's it. She's from there, huh? Yeah. Atchison, Kansas. Yeah.

So you had the, you were asked to do this, if you were interested in doing a project with this orchestra and you did some research and were inspired to do it about Amelia Earhart? Kind of like that. Yeah. Yeah. This conductor asked me to do something and I thought, orchestration, how hard could it be? So I orchestrated this thing for a giant orchestra.

And, you know, I mean, it's an art form. Sure. That I didn't know anything about. So they played the piece. And the first time this was ever played was like 23 years ago in New York. They played it at Carnegie Hall. And big orchestra. Yeah. I played it at Carnegie Hall. And big orchestra. And the conductor, and you have no chance to revise it because they play it through and the next night is the world premiere.

So you're like, it better be good. Right. So I'm sitting there, he plays this piece, and it is the worst thing I have ever heard in my life. The bassoons are doing what the cellos should do. It was chaos. You didn't know. No, I did know. It was the worst thing I have ever heard in my life. The bassoons are doing what the cellos should do. It was chaos. You didn't know. No, I did know. It was the worst thing I've ever heard.

So the conductor turns around and he goes, how was that? And I was like, um... He says, faster? Yeah, yeah, faster would be good. We'd be all over sooner. But then I learned something really crazy the next night. They play a lot about music and audiences.

Yeah. They played this thing. It sounded just as bad as it had the night before. Right. But people were like applauding. Yeah. As if they'd heard actual music. Huh.

You know. Yeah. And I thought, whoa. You know, maybe they thought it was supposed to be chaotic. That's what you wanted. Lots of chaos, lots of craziness. So that, oh, okay, that's a wild thing to learn. That audiences don't understand.

And if they're seeing art and they're interested in it, they're pretty open-minded. They are. Because there's nothing to compare it to. Yeah. So they're just sort of, it's all right. Yeah. Also, another nice thing to know, and performers forget this, is people want you to succeed. Yeah.

And not just out of generosity. No, they want to be uncomfortable. They want to be at a cool thing. They want to tell their friends, I just saw the greatest thing last night. Sorry you missed it, but it was really great. So they're kind of rooting for you. And they don't want to be witness to, you know. A debacle, yeah.

Right, but that's the interesting thing about Andy is that he wanted that. He wanted them to feel that. Well, that was his success. Right? Yeah. He did. It's kind of wild that in order to appreciate him, you've got to be in this zone of discomfort.

Yeah. And then he succeeded. Yeah, he really did. And touching people that way is amazing just to feel failure. Yeah. And that's what was so genius about Bob Dylan. Yeah. He was the first guy who wrote about losers.

Yeah. And romanticized losers. Yeah. And we're all losers. So we're like, okay, I get that. Yeah. How great to have something about loss. Yeah.

So that was built into Andy's thing. Yeah, yeah. Failure, loss. Yeah, yeah. Humiliation, shame. Yeah, yeah. It's like, welcome to the human race. Right.

All this stuff we try to hide. Yeah, yeah. So when you decided to sort of live the life of an artisan, like what drove you? Because you studied it, right? I mean, you studied art history, right? Yeah, but only because they thought it was too messy to do real stuff. Right. You know, let's talk about it instead of do it.

It was what they did at school. But then I went to school to – I got my MFA in sculpture. So, you know, I was doing – But was that too confining, these other modes? Well, I got kicked out several times. Yeah. Because I wasn't doing welded things. Yeah.

Sculpture is about welding. I was like, really? You didn't want to weld? Well, I did want to weld. Yes. Sculpture is about welding. I was like, really? You didn't want to weld? Well, I did want to weld. Yeah. But not other things to do in addition to welding. I think Dylan's welding now. That's great.

Yes. Yeah. He makes large found metal object sculptures. Beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's something very healing about welding. Just sticking it all together. Sure. The flames. Melting. Flames. Yeah. Yeah. Well, there's something very healing about welding, just sticking it all together. Sure. The flames, melting.

Flames, yeah. Yeah. It's just to see little Bob Dylan thinking to him, welding is pretty great. Yeah. Yeah. Everyone should have two or three things that they do, at least. Yeah. What are your three? Tai Chi is a big one. Tai Chi is a big one. Tai Chi is a big one.

And let's see. That's. Music. Music. I like music. I like painting a lot. Did I see some of your paintings up at Mass MoCA? Was that a thing out in Western Mass, you know, that big art museum?

Did you have a room out there? I have a room there for 15 years. Yes. I've been there forever. So right now they have some VR stuff that I did. Right. But there were some big paintings, weren't there? For a while.

Yeah, I saw those. Those are great. And then, oh, yeah, there were pictures of my- Oh, the VR stuff. Yeah, VR. And now there's some stories sort of thing. So they just gave you a room and you just kind of fill it up every few years? Yeah.

Yeah. It's a crazy sort of gig. Isn't that a crazy space? I love it. I love old factories that turn into something else. It's really nice. And it's cool for Western Mass, too, because it's a whole scene there now. I definitely, when I drive, I'll go out there

if I got a gig out there somewhere around there because I've never seen anything like it. And when artists choose to fill that big hall with an installation, it's like, that is nuts, man. Yeah. What an undertaking. Yeah. So, well, the Tai Chi, I mean, I know you're here

promoting this book. What's interesting about the book, which is The Art of the Straight Line, my Tai Chi, Lou Reed book, is that with both of you, you know, like when I started listening to the old records of yours, like which I listened to in high school

and, you know, maybe I haven't listened to in a long time, but there's something about your voice and your tone that, you know, right when you put it on, you know, I'm like, oh, I know what this is. It's Laurie Anderson. You know, I'm going to be on, you know, I'm like, oh, I know what this is. It's Laurie Anderson. You know, I'm going to be here now.

Because it's part of my wiring. You are. Whoa. And Louis, too, you know, because I listen to all that stuff. And I guess you had something to do with the Light in the Attic release of those demos. Yeah. Which is great. So beautiful, right?

It's wild because there's a couple on there. It's like, you know, he's literally trying to be Dylan. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And a folk singer, too on there. It's like, you know, he's literally trying to be Dylan. Yeah. Right? Yeah. And a folk singer, too. Exactly. And I was like, oh, my God.

There's harmonica. Like, it's so cute. It's adorable. He's in his parents' basement, you know, kind of going, words and music by Lou Reed. Yeah. Yeah. Was he in his parents' basement? No, actually not.

Oh. But he was in a studio. But a lot of the stuff he did in the basement, he was a kid, but all these early versions of stuff. There were just some wild ones. Yeah. Let's see, what's the first cut on that? I can't remember right now. Anyway, it's a song that went through a lot of changes.

Yeah. As many of them did because there's a song, Perfect Day, that he did an early version of which was, it's such a summer day.

Right. I want to spend it with you. Yeah, it's always wild to hear what they've become and how much better they've become. But I mean, I guess,

I talked to Jackson Brown once about Lou and about Jackson Brown being in New York for a minute and writing that song that Nico did. But he said Lou Reed took him to a Murray the Kay show. So there's this whole element of Lou that really wanted to be this pop singer, you know, songwriter, right? And a soul singer and James Joyce. He wanted to be a lot of things.

Yeah. And you guys were together starting like 2008? No. No, we got married in 2008. We were together for 21 years starting in 1992. That's crazy, right? We just got married as a sort of fluke. Oh, yeah?

Yeah. Most of us, I was walking along the road somewhere, I think California. Yeah. And I was talking to him and I was saying, you know, there's so many things I didn't do in my life. I was talking to him and I said, you know, there's so many things I didn't do in my life. I was going to learn German. I was going to learn physics. I guess I thought I'd get married. And he goes, let's get married.

I was like, oh. He said, how about tomorrow? He'd asked me to marry him many times. I was like, I'm not into it. Then at this point I was thinking, okay, so we got married the next day. Where, here? No, we got married in Boulder. I had a show in Boulder the next day, and he came, and he sang in the show, and we got married.

That's nice, wasn't it? It was really nice, yeah. It was really nice, yeah. But I guess where I was going with the idea was that, like, you know, all of us who are fans of you or fans of Lou, you know, you have your – I have my perception of whatever your life is. It's very limited. You know, it's limited to some records and a few things I read and you, you know, doing a thing in, you know, Stockholm or whatever it is. You know, it's a perception. And then this thing about Lou, like, I didn't know anything about Lou and Tai Chi.

You know, it's wild. He is known in China as a Tai Chi master, not as a musician. Uh-huh. Okay, not as a musician. So he's a really, really complicated person. Yeah. And Tai Chi was something that he began, well, he began with martial arts. Yeah. And Tai Chi was something that he began, well, he began with martial arts in like the 70s. Right.

And we also just found a song about Tai Chi from then. Yeah. So it was always, martial arts was always a big part of his life. Did it save his life? Well, he died. I know. Everyone's going to do that. Yeah.

But at the time, in the 70s, he was... No, I think what saved his life was drugs at that point. Oh, yeah? Yeah. Just white light. Right. He wanted to see the light somehow. Yeah.

He wanted magic somehow. So it was drugs then. It was music later. It was Tai Chi all the time. Right. Oh, so he was still doing drugs when he started Tai Chi? Yeah, he was. And he wasn't doing very well in Tai Chi.

Because, no, he was doing pretty good in drugs. But martial arts is, and especially the kind he did was, when I met him, he was doing more Yang style, which is more kind of almost circus-y moves. You'd be doing scissor kicks and swords and stuff. I was like, whoa, that's crazy. And then you don't want to do everything your partner does. So I like Tai Chi, so I found another guy to study with, Master Ren Kuan Yee, Pushan's champion of China. Anyway, I said, Lou, my teacher's better than yours, so you've got to come over here and check it out. And then

I became like a third wheel. Really? Yeah, they just glued to each other. It was really great. They became brothers. And Chen style is really much more a fighting form. So I think that appealed to Lu a lot, you know, that it was like ritual fighting. So there's many, many moves like a very slow, beautiful, slow motion slice of the right arm through the air. Yeah. And you see old Chinese ladies doing in the park. Yeah.

What is that? Decapitation. Really? Yeah. No mistake. It's a killing art form. Well, let me ask you, because I started going through the book, and there's reflections from Iggy, Michael P. Lilley, some of the teachers, some of the other characters in

his life and your life. And I started to think, well, is this serendipitous? Like, am I, you know, should I be doing this? Well, you know what we're doing is with this, and we can do this now if you want, because I just think, I told the people who are publishing the book, you know, we don't want to just be sitting around being talking heads. Yeah. So we're going to make all the things about doing it.

Yeah. So if you're doing it in a sitting position, you do something called standing mountain, which is, if you're listening to this, this podcast, right? So just, you put your arms in a circle almost out like and you drop your shoulders and it's a kind of tree hugging position let's say but we don't think of it like that it's called standing mountain okay and you you do that for as long as you can stand maybe an hour but let's say you're only going to do it two minutes. You'll still get a lot of benefit out of two minutes because you're going to begin to feel the movement of chi through your body. Yeah.

And everything in Tai Chi is circles. Okay. So as your hands pass each other in many of these forms, you feel this ball of energy. And the first time I felt that, I was like, what is that? It's really an amazing thing. So the title of this book, The Art of the Straight Line, what does that mean with an art form of circles to have a straight line? So that was the title he came up with when he started writing this book. And, you know, he never finished the book. So he was doing a lot of things.

And then he got very, very sick. So he just kind of left all these notes for us. And he felt like this was following through with the reason you put it out because you knew it was... To the best of our ability, we followed through. Yeah. Well, the art of the straight line, he makes references to a straight line in songs sometimes.

Yeah. I think Some Kind of Love of Boar's, I think he says something about a straight line in there. Yeah, yeah. There's a lot of Tai Chi images in his music. Also, there's a song called Ecstasy, and he's talking about inside the self is reeling,

is one of the lines. Oh, yeah, yes. Yeah, yeah. What is reeling? So silk reeling is one of the basic forms of Tai Chi, a name for one of them, because it comes from

a lot of these physical circular motions come from the spinning of a silkworm. Yeah. And then from the way that everything turns into these, not spirals really, because that has a center. Almost like yarn balls? Yeah, kind of like yarn balls. Yeah. Yeah, it is a little bit like? Yeah, kind of like yarn balls. Yeah. It is a little bit like that, a little bit like the spinning. But what this comes down to is ardor.

I want to learn this. I want to get there. I want to see something magic. I want to really be. I want to find out what this is for. And you can get there? Yeah, you can get there. You can get there, and then

you fall apart again, which is the great part, the great lesson of this. You just try it, and then you're going to fail, and then you're going to try it again, and there's no judgment about it. Yeah. And what you're looking for, because I mean,

I, you know, part of it requires imagination, right? Yeah, it does. It's very much about your mind as well. Yeah.

In order to, to sort of like feel the chi. That's right. Yeah. In a ball that you're dealing with. You know,

I think that if your mind meets, you know, if your mind meets the idea sort of midway, then the reality can happen. Well, the chi is inside you, too. I mean, you are made of chi. So the ball is just an expression. Because in many of the moves,

they're made so that you feel the chi running down your shoulder, through your heart, and out the other hand. And you're like, what is that? Really? It's like white lightning. It's like Kundalini. It's like you had eyes and you never opened them. It's like a wow.

So I could see how this would replace the drugs once he locked into it. Yeah. It's white light, white heat. Yeah. Right there. Yeah. And it doesn't require syringes. No. Just hands.

Yeah. It seems safer somehow. Yeah, it's a lot safer. Well, is it safer? I don't know if it's safer. Drugs are safe. You know, you go into your little cocoon

and see what's going on. I guess. As long as you're managing them properly, but ultimately not. I would say that from what I've read in this book that, you know,

Tai Chi is probably better for your organs and your veins. It is really good for that. And Lou died of liver cancer and he,

when I met him, he said, I'm going to die of liver cancer. He knew? Yeah. He said, because I,

you know, because he had hepatitis, he had a lot of things from drugs. Yeah. And a lot of those guys, Bowie too, that kills you. Right. When you do that as a kid, you're going to die from it. Yeah. So he did, but he really kind of took control, and he lived a lot longer than he would have without Tai Chi, without wanting to understand his body, without wanting, you know, he wanted to live. He wanted to live. So he did everything he could.

And so this book, Art of the Strength, is also about all of the other things he did, could. And so this book, Art of the Strength, is also about all of the other things he did, like meditation and diet and ways that you can live a little longer than. Knowing he was sick. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, when he started this, he wasn't sick. He was just searching. When he started the book, he had hepatitis C. He had diabetes. He had a lot of things. Yeah. Yeah.

He had a lot of things. Wow. And so he, but he was a fighter. Yeah. Clearly. Yeah. So he said, that's not going to stop me. Yeah.

I'm going to do everything I can. I mean, he wanted the best of everything. He would like, he's so inspiring in that way. I'm going to find the best sword. I'm going to find the best briefcase. Yeah. I'm going to find the best sword. I'm going to find the best briefcase. I'm going to find the best bass player. I'm going to find the best. I'm going to really find the best.

Do you think that come out of insecurity? I would never try to be a psychoanalyst. Sure. Yeah. And a lot of people, he got psychoanalyzed by every journalist in the world. That's true. Because he was confounding. Well, also, you know, they were going, you must be like, so, you must be like so messed

up because he's going, he wanted to be Baudelaire. Yeah. Rambo. Yeah. Well, yeah. It's called writing. I'm not talking, the I am talking about, that's notire. Yeah. Rambo. Yeah. It's called writing. I'm not talking, the I I'm talking about, that's not me. Yeah.

Why do you have to decide that that's me? It's so funny, the Baudelaire, Rambo, you know, that you've got, like, Lou was in that zone, too. Oh, yeah. And Patti Smith's in that zone. Oh, yeah. Jim Carroll was in that zone. Writing poetry, dark poetry about the world. Yeah. You're in that zone. Oh, yeah. Jim Carroll was in that zone. Writing poetry, dark poetry about the world. Yeah.

You're in that zone? Past the present. I'm fairly dark. Yeah. But there's always a hint of humor a lot of times. Well, I find the apocalypse kind of funny. Yeah? Sadly.

And you always have? No, you know, but, you know, I don't know. I have a different view of time lately. I don't know why. Well, that's interesting. I do, too. I think COVID fucked time up. Big time.

And I can't get it back. I know. And that's okay. Did you want it back? No, because it's actually every day seems like about a week. Yes. And I don't know when that happened or how it happened, but it did happen during COVID. Yeah, it did.

And it reconfigured things. And, I mean, we live lives. If you're living an artist's life where you're not clocking in, you know, it's nice that we now have elongated. It's a dream. Yeah. It's so wonderful. And a lot of people changed their lives. You know,

I was, you know, talking to a guy the other day, he was a tech guy that I was working with in Kansas City. I said,

what did you do in the pandemic? Because he was doing a lot of technology. And he said, I became a horticulturist because I just wanted to be around the dirt

and, you know, like outside. Yeah. And I think a lot of people kind of went, you know, I hate my job. Yeah. I don't want to do this. I want to do something else. It was fantastic.

What an incredible gift to everybody. For a lot of people, right? Yeah. And some people are like, I can't wait to get back. That's okay, too. They want the structure. Yeah. Well, I mean, and it's also, but you were in New York, and it got devastated.

I mean, people like someone that you worked with on one of your records, Hal Willner. Oh, Hal. Passed away from that. And it just seemed like New York was ground zero for the actual death count of COVID. Yeah, we lost a lot of people. Did you know others? Yeah, I did. That's crazy.

And a lot of friends in Europe, too, who are stuck in Milan, especially. Three people I know there died and people I was working with. Yeah. Yeah. It was a very big thing. But I think it did do something. People are so vague about time now. Like, I don't know, was it three years ago, four?

Pre-pandemic, I think. So that's not just me. No, it's everybody. Their clocks got erased. You know, their digital clocks kind of went error, error, error. It's wild, man. It's all gone.

It's gone. It's so great. It's, you know, it's exhilarating. I always hoped for something like this, not for the death of people, but for the reset and to just kind of go, what do you want? For you. Who are you? Right.

I had a very weird thing that just happened to me, probably because of the same thing. I have been going since the late 70s to this place in Massachusetts to do meditation. So it's like very hardcore, 18 hours a day for 10 days, no talking. Oh, really? Yeah.

And you do what you do with all these meditation things. Your mind is a clear sky and thoughts are clouds. So you see a cloud come by, you just, okay, that's a thought, let it go.

Here comes another one, let it go. And you constantly do that to try to find another place that doesn't have busy thoughts going through. So anyway, it's a very standard thing. Although,

I also have a Swiss teacher who's, because he's Swiss, he goes, imagine not, your mind is not a sky, let's say it's a little lake, let's say he's Swiss. Every thought's a little sailboat.

Here comes one, let it go. Here comes another one, let it go. So then, but he takes it a little farther. He goes, now imagine what kind of wind is blowing these boats. Is it a fierce winter wind or is it some soft summer breeze? In other words, what's the engine? Where are your thoughts coming from? What's motivating them?

What's down there doing this? Anyway, so I'm going through this whole thing, blah, blah, blah. And I'm throwing the thoughts away. There's a giant landscape of discarded thoughts. I'm there and then what happened was so weird. It just kind of came up out of that. I couldn't remember my name. And this went on for like 10 seconds at least.

And I was like, in the first couple seconds, you go, wow, I don't know my name. Then you go, I don't know my name. And then you go, is there a piece of paper around here with my name on it? And it's a lot longer than you think. Like when you're introducing two people, you can't remember their names. You go, you two should really meet. You like each other. It's transparent that you can't remember their names. Sure. I'm terrible. I'm terrible at names.

You two do it. But when it's your own name, it's wild. So I'm sitting there, and finally, after a searching around, I see this big shabby kind of banner. Yeah. And it has my name on it. And I'm like, that is so stupid. What does that have to do with all this discarded landscape of thoughts, you know? landscape of thoughts, you know? Yeah. And then the next thing, mental picture was a whole lot of really beautiful, interesting artworks that were all different materials, really quirky kind of things.

And then another sort of banner that goes, primitivism. I'm like, how dumb that you have to put a word onto something so complicated, so diverse and weird and, you know, and you have to go, that's called primitivism. That is sort of a strange kind of umbrella word for anything kind of raw and ethnic from different parts of the world and time. But all those labels are classics. Classic is the same or, you know, okay, that's punk or that's something, you know. Yeah. And it's just too, I mean, it's obviously we can't, we don't have time to describe things in detail.

So these are handy labels. But when your name becomes a handy label, it's weird. That's wild, huh? And I think that's the biggest difference for me in looking around at the world now as opposed to when I was a young artist. We weren't looking to make our names or to make a style that was going to be – I mean, when I started doing records with Warner Brothers, they said, well, you need a style. We need to get you sort of like a branded thing. I was like, I did it as a joke. Yeah.

You know, it was ridiculous. Which part was a joke? You know, like your look. I was like, well, obvious, it's to sell stuff. Right. I was like, well, obvious, it's to sell stuff. Right, but leading up to the records, I mean, you were working with all those. You were interfacing with technology. You had done the music. You made the different filters and the violin.

Yeah, because I was— You were doing art stuff. Yeah, and I wasn't making art to express myself. I don't care if you know me or not. Well, then what is the purpose? Why are you doing it? Because I want to see how things work, what colors they could be, what shapes they could be, what kind of stories they could be.

It's not to tell you about myself. I don't care. But it comes out of you and you can't. Yeah. But yeah, eventually you have a kind of style. Yeah. But to want to have a style to begin with. No, of course, of course.

Is, I think, unfortunately for young artists now, they're told they have to have a style. A brand, it's called. They have to have a brand and they have to be a whatever. But that's interesting because out of that same world that you come from, that there was, and I think it's become overdone, that there was, and I think it's become overdone, people who explicitly want you to know them better than you probably want to know them. Probably. Well, I mean, Spalding was like that.

I mean, that was a specific trip, right? Yeah. But that was his rhythm. That was his thing. That was his thing. Yeah. Yeah. But, and now I...

Well, he's a, yeah, he was an autobiographical, what they call, okay, here's another. Here, he was an autobiographical, what they call. Okay, here's another. Here's another. Sure. Labels to slap on him. But he did want to know himself, and he wanted you tried to use, the words he used could be shoved one way or another just by his facial expression. Because you had to really see him do that.

Also, I did some music for his movies. Yeah. And I realized that because it's just a guy sitting at a table with a glass of water, you could make his story sound ominous. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or you can make it sound – and he's saying the same thing. So power of music is amazing. So when you write, you know, the poetry that drives, you know, that is layered on top of the sounds and the music and the rhythms,

you know, those are not – they just come to you, that you know, you kind of, how do you work when you write? Different ways. But now I'm using a lot of AI programs. So you're adapting. Yeah. Well, actually, I was working with this group sometime before the pandemic. A million years ago, before the plague. A million years ago, before the plague.

A million years ago. Called the Machine Learning Institute in Adelaide, Australia. And they said, okay, this is the biggest language supercomputer in the world. Right. You're the artist in residence. What do you want it to do? I was like, it's a supercomputer, doesn't it? Can it get its own projects?

What do you need me for? So I said, okay, let's teach it to read the Bible. Because everyone's always banging on the Bible. Saying, the Bible says. And I said, really? What does it say? So we got to three different language streams that make up the Bible, Hebrew, Aramaic, and Greek. Yeah.

And you can control those with faders. So if you are reading the Bible, you can add a little extra Greek. And the question was, is it going to be more rational? If you add a little extra Hebrew, is it going to be more mystical? Yeah. Inconclusive results, kind of. But anyway, what they did was they put everything I ever wrote or said or recorded into the supercomputer. Right.

And they crossed it with the Bible. And they sent me a 9,000-page book. The Bible, according to me. What? Yeah. It's creepy. I'm telling you. It's in my styles, got syntax, got the kind of thinking.

And I'm telling you in this book. Oh, my God. With great confidence. Yeah. About the creation of the world, dominion of man over animals. Yeah. Fiery end and revelations. Are you using it? Yes. And, you know, man over animals. Yeah. Fiery end and revelations. You know.

Are you using it? Yes. I mean, I'm addicted to this program now. So the opera that I'm doing, which is an apocalyptic. But this is a real opera. This is not a Lower East Side opera. That's right. It's an Upper West Side opera.

Yeah. Apocalyptic dark comedy called Ark. And it's going to be in... And this is your collaboration with AI. Yeah. But also with... They also put everything that Lou ever wrote into this program. With you?

Yeah. Or a separate one? I could now combine these two things. Wow, come on. It's wild. Now, I don't really think I'm, it's not a Ouija board thing and I'm like, I think I'm collaborating

with my dead husband. Sure. I mean, but people have styles. Yeah, sure. And they have styles and you can meld them. So,

I'm writing these weird songs now that are collaborations between the two. Through AI. Yeah. So, this is the natural evolution

of what you do in terms of your relationship with technology. This is it. It's almost like. So this is the natural evolution of what you do in terms of your relationship with technology. This is it. It's almost like... Yeah, but for a lot of people who work with tech, you know,

everybody's using the chatbot. So, and... Yeah. To write their papers, to do everything. And did you read the love affair that the guy had

with his... with Sidney? No. Okay. It was with the new Bing, supposedly, the Bing chat bot. And got into a very long thing. Is it like that movie, Her? Yeah, right.

Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we're having to confront this now. I mean, who's in there is another kind of intelligence that's kind of mirroring us. I mean, it really is with a lot of these algorithms. It's like Twitter in, Twitter out. You know, you just, it depends on what you're feeding the AI. But do you feel like you're grounded in yourself strong enough to do it, to not be sort of erased by it? I don't mind being erased. You know. So I don't mind being erased.

So you don't mind forgetting your name as long as you can come back. No. And even if you can't come back, I don't know. It was a kind of, I thought, finally, I'm making a little progress. Yeah, it's beautiful. Yeah. No, I aspire to disappear. Now, I want to talk about, because I lost somebody during the pandemic.

And, you know, talking about grief. And, like, for some reason, I was sent the songs from the Bardos that you did. Oh, yeah. It was, like, on Smithsonian or something? Was it? Oh, uh-huh. Yeah. Yes, it was, yeah.

Songs from the Bardo. Yeah. And I sort of listened to it yesterday and then, you know, just considering, you know, what you went through with Lou's sickness and how you, I don't get a sense of how you process things, but I found that

for some reason listening to the Bardos, I kind of got something that I didn't anticipate. Well, I highly recommend something that I listened to about a hundred times. Yeah.

It's a really long teaching by a guy named Bob Thurman who, it's called The Liberation of the Between. And it's about how what happens to, as you, in this belief

system is what happens to consciousness, let's say, when you die, and the 49 days where your consciousness prepares to enter another life form, and how you can help that person do that. So I listened to that. I haven't memorized it. It's about four-hour teaching.

It's fantastic. And so Bob Thurman begins that with, like, the thing to know about the Bardo is there are no dead people. No dead people at all. And he goes on from there. He goes, there's the door. It's just a line. And on and on like this.

Now, I have to say, you know, Lou's been dead 10 years. And I feel his presence every day really in a very powerful way. I feel that he teaches me a lot. I still find notes around the house from him that I haven't read. It's like he's in my life. So is Hal Willner. And I thought, I've always believed in angels. They're around.

I mean, many, and I thought, I've always believed in angels. They're around. And then recently, two weeks ago, a friend of mine came back from Varanasi. Yeah. And this is a place in India where they carry the dead people on these stretchers. Yeah. And they toss them down the ghats, down the stairs. And they burn them up. And she saw these, she saw them using this big stick.

And they're chopping up the charred body. And they're chopping the head off, the charred head off. And she said, two things came to her mind, final place. Yeah. And I was like, oh. She said, I don't have that much stake in reincarnation anyway. Yeah. You know, so I just saw that.

I thought that. And I said, but wait, wait, wait, wait. Lou talks to me every day. And then she said, I want you to consider this, that they're inside you. I was like, oh, that's heavy. Because then when I died, they're gone. She said, no, no. They're inside a lot of people.

It's not like you're the only one carrying this. Yeah. So I've been trying this out the last couple of weeks. And it's intense. And it does give you a different sense of time. You know, it gives you this sense of like, wow, what if this is what my mind is doing with that? You know. Yeah. wow, what if this is what my mind is doing with that? You know, doing all of these things that I think are coming from some... Outside, yeah.

Outside, what if it's inside? Self-generated. Yeah, and that's a thrilling idea also. But also the idea of chi within and then connecting to universal chi, why not? Exactly. chi within and then connecting to universal chi, why not? Exactly. I probably am going to compromise going, we're in an ocean of thought stream that we all live in, and sometimes we have bodies, sometimes we don't, and individuality isn't so important.

Right. So, it comes down to something that's really especially thrilling to me, which is every single second that you're here counts. Every single second. We don't know where we come from. Don't know what we are. So just try to be there for as much of it as you can. Don't sleep too much. Yeah, show up.

No, sleep is nice. Sleep is nice. Sleep is wonderful. Okay. You know, no pressure. No pressure. No pressure. It's just all about, you know, love and joy.

It comes down to that. Okay, I'll take it and I'll work on that. Me too. I'm trying to work on that too. It's tough though because it's easier to believe in angels, you know. I guess, not for me, but like I have lately been experimenting with joy. I'm trying to work on that, too. It's tough, though, because it's easier to believe in angels. I guess, not for me, but I have lately been experimenting with joy, and it's a little disconcerting. Really? Why?

Because it's not comfortable. It feels vulnerable, and it feels like an emotion that originally manifests as a type of sadness first. Well, then your joy is your sadness. Oh, boy. Right? I was hoping not. No, why not? I mean, everything lives inside the other. It's opposite.

So, is this cool? Yeah. All right. I mean, I'm like a, I wallow in sadness. Yeah. I do. I like it. But I don't feel

sorry. It makes me feel something. I don't feel sorry for myself. Yeah. It's something else. It's sort of, you know,

like, there's, yeah, there's a, it's a dark empathy. Bingo. That's, I mean,

every day I think of what our teacher said, and this is Lou's teacher too, and mine as well. He's a guy from Nepal, and he looks like he's a really vulnerable guy, incredible teacher. You don't know how to swim, do you? He said, no, I sink all the time. I'm going to teach you to swim. So we took this guy swimming. But what he taught us was something so great,

and it was about this. I could sum it up in one sentence, which is what he said was, try to practice how to feel sad without actually being sad. And I thought, whoa, that's it. Because there are lots of sad things in the world. And if you pretend they're not there, you're an idiot.

They're there. Yeah. But his whole thing is don't become that. Do not become that. Feel it, but don't become it. And I was like, what a great distinction. Yeah. That's where it is.

So, and he's all about, he's, I don't know, I'm just picturing his face now laughing. Yeah. Is he gone? No, no, he's somewhere. He's a really incredible teacher. He also just disappeared for about four years.

He went off into a cave. Really? In Nepal, yeah. And he was somebody who was never alone in his whole life. Always had three llamas trailing after him because he's kind of in this lineage of teachers. Yeah, is he out of the cave? Yeah, he's out of the cave. But he was in the cave when Lou died,

and I thought, oh, yeah, I need you right now. You're gone in a cave? Come back. So I lived on those words. Yeah. And that one was key. Feel it, don't be it. Feel it, and don't become it. Don't be it. Feel it and don't become it.

Don't become it. Yeah. Well, it's a lovely book and it's got me thinking already, honestly, because I'm just hiking up a mountain and lifting weights and trying to eat well. But there seems – Those are great things. Wow. Hiking up a mountain? Yeah.

Like two or three times a week right over here. Wow. But there seems a mountain? Yeah. Like two or three times a week right over here. Wow. But there seems to be something to this. And I tried meditation a bit during the pandemic, and I felt that I could get there. You know, like it was not alien to me. It wasn't like, what the fuck is happening? I got it. Yeah.

But this seems like there's some good information in here about, you know, harnessing the chi business. We've got it. We've got it. We've got it. We all have it. Yeah. And we're all part of the big one. Yeah. Yeah.

So might as well. Yeah. I think there's some, you know, it's a lot of loose friends who talk about how this works. And it's just also a very practical thing to do for your body. And it's an interesting profile of Lou Reed. Yeah. Like my friend Sam, who lives in New York, knew that he was into Tai Chi. And I guess there was people that did, but I didn't.

So I'm like, this is whole other Lou. So if you're a Lou person and you don't know Tai Chi Lou, now you're going to know Tai Chi Lou. It's funny. I'll tell you a story and then I got to get you out of here so you don't miss your point. Because I've told the story before, but like, you know, Lou Reed was signing records with the band he played on New Sensations with. It was for New Sensations. I was in college in Boston. And he was signing records at Strawberry Records in Kenmore Square. And I'm like, I'm going to go.

I'm going to go see Lou. I'm going to meet Lou, you know. And I was like, you. And I was in line. And I'm behind this guy who's in a white jumpsuit with an amp strapped to his back and a guitar. I'm like, I've got to be behind this asshole. But I'm in line. And I'm like, I've got to connect. I've got to connect with Lou.

This can't just be a signing thing. I've got to connect. Okay. Yeah. So I'm thinking about it. I'm thinking about it. I'm thinking about it. And I get up to the counter. And he goes, what's your name?

I go, it's Mark. And I go, hey, Lou, what gauge pick do you use? And he looks at me, right? And he looks at me and goes, medium, man. You got to use a medium. And I'm like, yes! Yes, yes. That was my big Lou Reed moment.

Well, that's a good one because that stuff mattered to him. Yeah. That was where it lived. You know, what a pick it is. Yeah. Yeah. I can tell. All that stuff.

Yeah. Yeah. All that stuff. Great talking to you. Same. Wow. Right? Andy Kaufman.

The book, The Art of the Straight Line, My Tai Chi by Lou Reed is available now wherever you get your books. All right. Hang out for a second. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly.

This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance

will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5pm in Rock City at torontorock.com. Folks, if you're interested in hearing more about Andy Kaufman and you have a full Marin subscription, you can listen to my episodes with Andy's friend and comedy partner, bob zamuda and then my follow-up with tony clifton i would go on fucking dv letterman yeah uh merv griffin remember mike douglas show all that stuff yeah then i'd go do it yeah and it was me and kaufman right home laughing his ass off right people think it was him so we became friends and then of course after his death right here at the comedy store one year later so he's dead oh he's dead as a fucking door right damn right sometimes you

know sometimes i'll be on stage and somebody yell out uh kaufman kaufman you andy kaufman you know what i say i say you want to see kaufman get yourself a shovel and a flashlight what the fuck i tell him to do crazy i'll throw him out i'll fucking push the face all right so what about Zamuda? That guy, no. He's that fucking guy. He did an impression. He had a terrible, terrible fucking impression of me.

Let me tell you that. Then you had Jim Carrey in the movie. Yeah. He did an impression of me. And also the other guy, Paul Giamatti. Yeah. He did one. So a lot of people don't press.

But I'm the original. I'm the guy. If you look back, if you look back on Merv, on Letterman, on Miss Biggie, you will see me. Right. And Zamuda had nothing to do with it. No. Every once in a while. Why are you so fucking mad at Zamuda?

Because he's a fucking stupid piece of Polish shit. All right. All right. That's from episode 287. And the one with Bob Zamuda is episode 274. Those are only available ad-free for people with a full Marin subscription. 74. Those are only available ad-free for people with a full Marin subscription. To sign up, go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF Plus or go to the link in the episode description.

And speaking of the episode description, don't forget that we have an audience survey link in there. It will take you five to seven minutes to complete, and it's really helpful to us if you do it. It lets us know how better to serve you, our listeners. And right now, below the survey link is another link to submit a question for the next Ask Mark Anything episode on the full Marin. So that's a bunch of stuff you can do right now in the episode description. Sign up for WTF Plus, complete our audience survey, and send me a question. Go for it. Some of you have noticed that I'm actually playing partially songs or familiar things, but they're usually pretty deep cuts, so no one's really going to know except those of you who know. Thank you. Thank you. Boomer lives, monkey and lavanda, cat angels everywhere.