WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1422 - Cathy Ladman

Episode Date: March 30, 2023

Cathy Ladman just made her tenth appearance on The Tonight Show, a milestone in a career that started back when Johnny Carson was the host. But something she dealt with throughout that career was an ongoing battle with an eating disorder. Cathy tells Marc how she avoided talking about it in her comedy until now, with a new stage show that centers on her fight with anorexia. They also talk about growing up in a bowling alley, her sitcom writing, and her first serious boyfriend, Jerry Seinfeld. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fuck, Knicks? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast. How are you?

Today on the show, Kathy Ladman is here. Now, she's an actor and a comedian. But Kathy Ladman, when I was a doorman at the comedy store back in 87, she was there. She was one of the comics I saw all the time. There was a handful of women working. You know, the comedy story is always, even back in the 80s, there were a lot of women working. It was her and Karen Haber, Jan Hart, Karen Babbitt, Carrie Snow, Jan Karam that were working at the store. And she was very funny. She reminded me, she was very Jewish to me

and was a joke writer, wrote point of view jokes, reminded me of my friend Chuck Scar, reminded me of people that I grew up admiring. And I used to see her when I was just a drugged up little door guy at the comedy store. And I hadn't seen her in a while, but I knew she was still kind of in the game. I knew she never stopped.

And then she showed up on Fallon like a few months ago. And Kathy's older than me. I'm only saying that because I thought it was a pretty menschy thing for Jimmy to do, you know, that she got, I'm going to ask her how that happened because you just don't see women, let alone even some dudes who like she you know proudly has her hair her natural color it's gray and she was just knocking it out of the park with the jokes on Fallon and I was so happy for her but I was happy I was fucking proud of fucking Jimmy for doing that you just don't see people uh on on major shows at that age. It's a sad truth. And a woman to boot. So I was pretty impressed with everybody involved.

And I hadn't seen her in a long time. And it was great to talk to her. I had always assumed that she kind of didn't like me, but I also kind of thought that she might have, like somebody took me to lunch and talked to me. I can't remember. I thought it was her, but it might've been Karen Haber. Somebody was like, why are you so fucked up? You're a young guy. You're getting all fucked up. You're in trouble. One of those conversations, one of the women comics did that to me when I was a 22 year old Coke freak at the door, sweating at the store but i i it wasn't her because i asked her so look you guys i'll be at the ice house in pasadena the newly renovated ice house in pasadena

on thursday april 27th at 8 p.m you can go to wtfpod.com slash tour to get tickets. I feel like I should put my Largo dates up there too. I'm going to be at Largo April 14th. I'm at Largo. So you can go to Largo's website. I think John Mulaney's going to be on. He said he would. We'll see what happens. And somebody else. I guess what I'm doing is I'm forcing myself into the position to get new material. I guess that's what's happening. I didn't think it would happen so soon. I'm not sure what it looks like or what it is. I kind of got an idea. I don't know if

everybody's going to like it, but I'm moving away from, you know, placating the panicked into something more personal and more important. I mean, I've always been a little personal, but, you know, in terms of doing jokes about culture and about politics, all you know where I stand, I've said it over and over again, and, you know, it's it's not my job to give you temporary relief or make you feel less alone around politics or speculating about global issues. walking around the world with mental problems that you know you have and you're taking hostages and you're making people miserable or you're destroying yourself. It's, uh, let's get into that. You know, why is that happening? All of the problems, almost, almost, I would say 90% of the world's problems are personal. Is that too much? Is it?

Look, man, there's just areas. And look, I have to tell on myself too. So that's where I'm going to be. That's the direction I feel like I'm going. There was this fleeting idea I had that, hey, maybe I should do a bunch of clean, mundane comedy, just observational comedy with no cussing and no menace. Maybe that would be the next great experiment for me to just kind of like do a clean hour, do a pleasant hour, an hour you'd like your mom to see. Unfortunately, there's many people whose moms like

me just the way I am. So I don't know. I think the clean hour is a fleeting idea and it's going to be something more menacing and more personal, but completely relatable to you fuckers that know. to you fuckers that know. You fuckers know, and I know you. So let's get on with it. That's where I'm going. Do you dig? Are you with me?

What's happening? I was so excited to find a car wash after all these rains. You know, for some reason, all the car washes where they put your car on the track and it drags it through the brushes, there's not many of them around anymore. And I enjoy those. I like the ones where you can watch your car go through. So you get this weird proximity accomplishment, the, uh, the sort of like, you know, like I'm not really doing it, but I feel

like I'm doing it because I'm watching it. I'm watching it in the machine, but I found one of those. So I got my car washed and it rained today. So whatever. Doesn't matter. These are the things I do. Several supermarkets. Run back and forth. Forgot parsley. This is the day. Put the laundry in. Yeah, this is the day.

Make a thing. Make a dressing. Make some rice for the week. Huh? What am I? But what do I do? What do I do with the time? By the end of the day, I'm harried and exhausted

trying to get dinner ready for who, for myself, for kit. Ridiculous. These are important things, man. This is what I do to avoid my feelings. I put a lot of work and do a lot of little things, some of it edible. So I don't have to feel all the feelings. What are you doing? What are you up to? What do you have to show for your own emotional repression? Anything amazing? But I'm trying to like catch up on movies. I'm trying to watch movies. I watched, uh, I watched an entire series with Ali Wong and Stephen Jung. Because I talked to him about the series Beef, which I enjoyed. I watched all of this upcoming Love and Death series about Candy Montgomery to talk to Lily Rabe soon.

So I'm watching a lot of stuff for work. But then last night, I'm on Cr on criterion and I'm like, man, there's a lot here. Do I need to watch all the Buster Keaton shorts again? Will that bring me joy? Will that really make me laugh? I don't know. I don't think so. Uh, and then I somehow, I decided, all right, maybe it's time to watch heaven's gate. It's gotten a lot of bad press over the years, but then I've heard maybe it's not as bad as they say it is. It's still three and a half hours long. And I really had to weigh it out. Like, do I have the time right now? Is this how I want to spend the time? Should I do it in pieces? Do I give a fuck? So I started it and I was like, it's okay. You know, it's nice to see Chris Christopherson.

Okay. But I didn't, I didn't follow through with it. I decided to watch some other movie, an Adam Orgoyan movie who I like, and I'd never follow through with it. I decided to watch some other movie, an Adam Orgoyan movie, who I like and I'd never heard of this movie. I think it's called Felicia's Journey with Bob Hoskins. And what a disturbing fucked up movie that was. I don't even know, like there are movies,

like sometimes I ask myself, who decided this was a story? But then I see that it's a book and that makes more sense to me. Because sometimes when you take a movie from a novel, it's like, this doesn't, this isn't like a regular movie that someone just decided to make a movie. This is some, this guy is, this is a fucked up character. son of a cooking show host who has long passed and he still lives in her house. And, uh, apparently he's got a, a, uh, killing, uh, women problem. I don't want to spoil anything, but the movie's from fucking 1999. So deal with it. All right. I found it very disturbing and I, and I'm a little haunted by it. So that's what I did with my time last night. But I also spent the day listening to some records, listening to some Charles Mingus,

listen to some Pharaoh Sanders, went upstairs, sat in my office among my stuff, sat in my office among my stuff, did some reading, almost done with my book about QAnon and the idea that it is orchestrated, intentional, agitprop brain fuckers, but all sort of on purpose. Nonetheless, it's a good breakdown of the conspiracy connectivity. See, I'm still staying on the pulse, man. I still want to know. I'm still in it. So look, you guys, Kathy Ladman is going to be performing in South Carolina next month. And then at the Pico Theater in Los Angeles at the end of April, you can go to kathyladman.com for her dates and to check out her stuff. She's got this one woman show about anorexia. I don't know. Find out what she's doing at these dates because it sounded pretty fucking interesting.

You'll hear. I'm going to talk to her right now. Listen. Are you self-employed? Don't think you need business insurance? Think again. Business insurance from Zensurance is a no-brainer for every business owner because it provides peace of mind. A lot can go wrong. A fire, cyber attack, stolen equipment, or an unhappy customer suing you.

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Thank you. I mean, I had fun. Yeah? It had been a long time since I'd done a late night set. I can't remember the last time I did like that. I usually do panel. Right. Well, you're certainly in a very different place in your career than I am.

I choose to do panel. I mean, like, and I'm given that choice. But, I mean, the whole doing a late night set is its own thing. Yes. I was just talking to Eliza about it. I was texting with Eliza. Uh-huh. Did you know her? I don't know her personally. Because she told me that you were working a thing. Yes. I was just talking to Eliza about it. I was texting with Eliza. Uh-huh. Did you know her?

I don't know her personally. Because she told me that you were working a set. Yes. Because I brought you up. Yes. And then I realized it was that set. And it bombed at the improv. I walked into the improv,

and this guy who was like a stoner was on stage doing really well, and I looked out to the audience. They were all in their 20s, and I thought, well, this isn't going to go well. Yeah. But traditionally, when I run a late night set in a club, it bombs. Of course.

Yeah. Except in New York, it did well, which made me a little bit nervous, to tell you the truth. Huh. Well, I mean, that's because New York is a different expectation. It's a very different comedy world there. It is. And I did it at the Comedy Cellar, and they're great audiences. Yeah.

And it's like you got to hit them. I mean, you got to have the jokes. Right. Here it's like, you know, you can ramble on. I know. And I don't know what's going on in some rooms. But I think it was a produced show that night. It was Brian Monarch's show, which is a weird bunch.

You mean at the Improv? Yeah. Oh, I don't know. I have no idea. They just threw you the... They just gave me a... I asked for that specific night because it was the only night I could do it. And how long had it been since you'd done one? A late night spot?

Yeah. Seven years. Wow. That's a long time. It was like four and a half minutes, right? It was very short. It was four minutes and twenty seconds and I thought it was longer because I thought it was four minutes and 20 seconds and and i thought it was longer because it i thought it was running longer maybe my timing was just different out here and um and he said you can add another joke if you want i said you know i'd rather not mess with it i'd rather just keep it the way it is so i just did a little bit short it's so odd you know that

i mean we're talking and i i you recently, not too long ago. But, I mean, you were working the store when I was a door guy. Oh, my God, yes. I mean, that's when I knew you from. Yes. Like, I was a doorman, a coked-up weirdo. Wow. In 1986.

Yeah, and I moved out here in 85. It was 87. It was 87. I was a doorman at the store. And I would see you like every night. Yes. When I was in town. When I was on the road, obviously I wasn't there, but I could work.

I basically worked six nights a week at the store. I know. I made myself take one night off. I know. It was crazy back then. And I have some weird, like, I might be manufacturing this memory. Because, I mean, I knew you, like, what did you know? I was just a door guy.

I mean, I doubt you remember me. Really. Well, I don't. And I'm sorry. It's okay. But if you were coked up, then. Well, no, I had this weird thing. And I think my brain made it up that you told me to get my shit together.

No. That's not who I am. I wouldn't have done that. Never? No. No, I don't think. Not like together. No. That's not who I am. I wouldn't have done that. Never? No, I don't think, not like that. Yeah. No, I mean,

it wouldn't have been condescending. No, but I would have, but we would have known each other more intimately for me to say that. For me to say that. Yeah. Must have been somebody else.

I swear to God. Maybe. Some comic, some woman who was of your generation of people at that time I think took me to lunch. Was it Carrie Snow?

No. Carrie Snow says hi. Oh, yeah. How's she doing? She's doing okay. You know, she had a stroke a while ago. Yeah, but she's doing okay. Maybe it could have been Karen Haber.

Oh, okay. Right? That's a possibility, yeah. I could hear her doing that. Right? You have to get your shit together. Something. But, okay, so you moved here in 86?

85. 85? Yes. From where? From New York. I was going out with Steve Middleman, okay? Oh, my God. No.

We were together for three and a half years. Oh, wait. Now, let's go back then. Okay. So, where'd you grow up? I grew up in Queens. What part? Little Neck, right on the edge.

Of the island? Right on the border of Nassau County. It was Little Neck, then Great Neck is in Nassau County. I knew people in Great Neck. Yeah, but the very different types of towns. Yeah, so what- As my father said, Little Neck is a two-fair zone. You have to take a bus and then a subway into the city.

It's a two-fair zone. So you grew up in a big Jewish family? Yeah, well, not big. Three girls. I'm the youngest of three. Really? Are your sisters still around? Oh, yeah.

Both my sisters, yeah. Back east. Yeah? Doing regular lives? Regular lives. One of my sisters is a retired educator. Yeah. And my other sister is a retired speech therapist audiologist.

And they're good? I just said audiologist like I couldn't speak. Ironically. They're both well. Yeah. They're both really well. Oh, that's... New York Jews is still... To me, it's weird. I keep noticing that there's less

and less of them in comedy. Is that true? I guess that's true. It used to be predominantly. I know. The guess that's true. It's kind of true. It used to be predominantly, yes. I know. The whole New York thing, it's like they've just been, or maybe the identity is not the same. I mean, because there was such an identity to New York Jewish comedy.

All the comedy come through there. Yes. All movies, TV shows, It was all basically Jewish comedy. Yeah, the Catskills. Yeah. And all the TV writers and movie writers. It's like it is. Sid Caesar's staff.

Yeah, all of them. But I remember when I used to watch comedy when I was a kid, it was like they were all the Jewish guys. And it's just not that whole identity is gone. Yes. I mean, now comedy has become much more diversified. Which is good. It is good. Obviously. I mean, now comedy has become much more diversified. Which is good. It is good. Obviously. But, like, there was such a type.

Like, Larry David was sort of one of the last of them. Right. In a way, you know? Right. And you, like, so when did you start to decide to do this? What did your dad do? How much pressure did you get to not do it? Oh, God. Got plenty of pressure. Well, not as much as pressure to not do it, but not any encouragement to do it.

And kind of like indirect pressure to do something else. Yeah. Guilt, that's called. Yes. You're right. You're right. That's a definition of indirect pressure. Indirect pressure to do something else.

I decided that I used to, I became interested in comedy at the age of eight. Because of why? Because my parents had these comedy albums that I used to listen to. Like who? In particular, Nichols and May, Examined Doctors. Oh, yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I memorized the whole album. Yeah.

And then I used to watch The Ed Sullivan Show. And if I could stay up late on the weekend, I would watch late night shows. And I just loved comedy. And through my dad, I think I was most interested in it. And then when I was 13, I was voted class clown, which was like the best thing that could have ever happened to me. And I decided I wanted to be a comedian. At 13. At 13. Yeah, I kind of felt that. It took have ever happened to me. And I decided I wanted to be a comedian. At 13? At 13. Yeah, I kind of felt that. It took me another lifetime to start. Yeah, well, I mean, what are you going to do? I mean, it's hard to know how to start. I was terrified.

Well, I mean, terrified, but also like, where do I go? Like, I wanted to do it when I was 11 or 12. And it wasn't until I went to a comedy show when I was maybe in high school and visiting New York. Right. And I went to the comic strip. Right. And I saw Paul Re I went to a comedy show when I was maybe in high school and visiting New York. Right. And I went to the comic strip. Right. And I saw Paul Reiser sitting in a booth.

And I was like, you know, and I'd seen him in Diner. I didn't know him as a comic, but I saw him that night. I said, I want to do this. How do I do it? And he goes, you just got to do it. Exactly. Exactly. So, are you from Boston?

No, I grew up in New Mexico. My folks are from Jersey. Oh, okay. So, I always had sort of a connection there. I went are you from Boston? No, I grew up in New Mexico. My folks are from Jersey. Oh, okay. So, I always had sort of a connection there. I went to college in Boston. Oh, okay. But I was always, I was a Becky two or three times a year. Okay.

Like, I'm genetically Jersey. Yeah, I mean, you have an East Coast feel to you, definitely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I grew up with that. I don't look at you and say New Mexico. No, no. How would you notice anyone from New Mexico? I don't know. I don't know. Very, like, kind of Hopi. No, no. How would you notice anyone from New Mexico? I don't know.

Very kind of Hopi kind of patterns on their head. I don't know. Right, right. Turquoise jewelry. I have that. I got some turquoise jewelry. Yeah, you do have some turquoise. But yeah, no.

Jersey Jews is where I come from. Okay. So 13, but then you just what? Then I went to school and my mother, I went to college when I was 16 because I was so unhappy in high school that I accelerated the hell out. Oh, is that it? Yes. You had to get out? I had to get the fuck out.

So you had to apply yourself? Yes. That's where the intelligence came from, just misery? Desperation, yes. And so I went away to Albany. I went to SUNY Albany. Yeah. It's cold up there.

Yeah, but not that much colder than New York City. And my mother encouraged me to take English education so I'd have something to fall back on. Of course, a good liberal arts degree, that means nothing. Right. So I fell right back on it. I mean, it was like I graduated in the middle of the year. So I never went to a high school graduation. You weren't happy there either?

Well, no, no. I graduated high school in the middle of the year in January. I started college. And then I graduated college in December. So I never did a ceremony of graduation. Of either place. Of either place. Did you have friends?

Yeah, I have some high school friends now, but not that many. Oh, still? A couple, but I'm really, I was very unhappy in high school. Why? Well, I was miserable. Both of my sisters were away at college. Is that big an age difference? Oh, we're not.

One sister is four years older than I, and the other one is seven years older than I. So they were both away at school. So I was alone and the scrutiny was all on me. From who? From my parents. Oh, right. And my father was very strict. What did he do? Oh, he was a CPA, but he hated it. So my whole life he owned a bowling alley. Really? Yes. In Massapequa Park on Long Island, 25 miles away from our home. What was the name of the bowling alley? 300 Bowl. They would answer the call, they would answer the call, 300.

Sebastian's doing a joke about back in the day when you'd call a bowling alley because apparently he called a bowling alley and he got like a call center to book a lane. He says, remember when you'd call and just be like, yeah, I think 12 is open if you come down. I know, exactly. Exactly. I used to go there

sometimes with a friend. That was a big treat. Right. And we would spend the day at the bowling alley and we would help out and I would give out lanes and rent the shoes

and it was so much fun. Was your father happy there? I think he was. Yeah. He really enjoyed the business. Yeah. I mean, after he was a CPA and didn't enjoy it, he went into a couple of other businesses, the eyeglass frame business, and then maybe something else. And then all I knew was the

bowling alley. I wasn't alive or cognizant anyway. It's just so wild when I hear about people's parents who just sort of like, the things they try. You just try. Eyeglasses. What is that? It was a business. It was a business. There were entrepreneurs, these guys. Four partners together.

People that my dad knew from the Army days and stuff. And they said, this seems like a good moneymaker. Let's try this. My father got out of medicine. He was old. Oh, wow. And he decided he wanted to be a mailman. Oh, my God.

It lasted a week. It's a very romantic notion. It was. I don't know what he thought. He thought he was going to be like, how are you doing? You might be a little bit too young to remember the show

The Merry Mailman. No. Yeah, you're too young. But I can understand how he thought it would be fun. Yeah. Somehow. Yeah, but one rainy day.

Not good. Not good. Not good. I don't know. I think it took one day of just him realizing no one gave a shit about their mailman. Exactly. Yeah. All right. So he's, you're doing the bowling.

He's doing a bowling alley. Yes. Okay. You go to college. So you're out and you go back home to Little Neck? Well, I went back to Little Neck for a short time. And my sister, Leslie, the one who's four years older than I, she got a job. Her husband was going to dental school in Philly, at Temple, I believe.

Yeah. And she got a job teaching in the Abington School District, which is just north of Philly. I like Philly. Me too. Yeah. And when she got the job, they were living there temporarily at my parents' house. And the guy called and he said, is Leslie i just is leslie there i just wanted to tell her that we'd like to hire her and i said oh my god that's great do you have a job for me

and he goes well i don't know when you come to visit leslie maybe we can set you up on a couple of interviews yeah which he did and i got one of the jobs i taught english i taught english to eighth graders yeah um and i met my friend, who is still my best friend. For life? Yeah, almost 47 years. Yeah. She's my best friend. So you taught for a while.

I taught for one year. Didn't want to do it. Didn't want to do it. Like my dad and being a CPA. It's the story of your life. Everything, you just got to get out. Dissatisfaction. Right.

You got to get out. You're right. I never thought about that, but you're right i never thought about that but you're right i gotta i gotta do this now i have to leave um so um but i knew i didn't want to be a teacher yeah um and then i decided i was going to move out to la in fact i went to visit jerry seinfeld whom i've known since i was 15 how do you know him he and i were on a teen tour together to Israel. And he was my first serious boyfriend. Come on. Yes.

And I told him that he'd make a great stand-up comic. You went on a teen tour to Israel with Jerry? Yes. So you didn't go to high school together. It was one of those teens. No, he lived in Massapequa. He lived close to my father's bowling alley. My father knew Jerry's dad because Jerry's dad was in the sign business.

That's so funny. And my father would say, he's very expensive. I went on a teen tour, but not to Israel. Where'd you go? Domestic? Yeah, we flew into Colorado

and did like, you know, the States on this. Oh, fun. Barron Teen Tours. Barron Teen Tours, yes. I remember that. But this was a very, this was not a, I. Barren teen tours. Barren teen tours, yes. I remember that. But this was a very, this was not a,

I call it a teen tour because there's really no other term I can think of. It was a very culturally, Jewish culturally based tour. My parents, my mother was still trying to shove Judaism down my throat at that point. But how religious were they really? Just like kind of conservative middle class? Yeah, but my mother was very, very into the whole culture of Judaism. And my father somewhat, but became less so as he got older.

Did you have grandparents that were off the boat kind of thing? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, both sets of grandparents. So they came in, they were on the, like came into New York City and then eventually moved out to the island or something? No, no. My grandparents always lived in Manhattan, upper Manhattan. Huh.

Upper Manhattan, yeah. Both sets. And you had that whole world. What culture did they bring with them? Oh, God. Here's a great. German, what? Well, one, my mother's parents were Polish-Austrian.

Yeah. Because the border kept changing. Yeah. And my father's parents were Russian. Right. But here's a great little story about my grandmother, my mom's mom. Nana. We called her Nana.

Yeah. And she was a good baker. Yeah. She was a really good baker. And she was giving me a recipe. Yeah. For some cake that she made. And she goes, you take a glass of flour and a glass and a half of water.

And she's giving me all this. I said, what do you mean a glass? She goes, here. And she takes out a yorkside glass. Yeah. You know, the memorial glass. They used to be bigger. They used to be bigger.

They're not as tiny as they are now. And that was her standard measure. Right. Was a yorkside glass. Which I thought was so great. Yeah. You know, that's thought was so great. Yeah. You know, that's where they came from.

Yeah, and that's where you end up if you keep eating the candle. Exactly, exactly. And then you burn another candle and you have one

for somebody else to bake with. Oh, my God. I have some memories of that stuff. Oh, so let me tell you

this story. Okay. So I was doing The Tonight Show last week and the makeup, uh, and hair women were terrific and we're talking and I asked the makeup woman, uh, where do you,

where do you live? And she says, I live in Inwood. I said, Oh wow. And my sister was in the room with me and we had, we said, Oh,

our grandmother lived there. And I, I said, our grandmother lived at this address. Yeah. And she says, that's where I live. Come on.

And then my sister called my aunt and found out the name, the apartment. Yeah. She lived on the same floor as my grandmother. Oh, my God. I know. It's crazy. We all had the chills. It was so great.

My grandparents, my earliest memory, well, they lived in Jersey City. Uh-huh. And then Bayonne. Oh, wow. And then my father's people ended up, the Russians ended up in Asbury Park somehow, Jersey Shore. Oh, right. Okay. But so you're on a teen tour?

So, and Jerry and I met, and we really liked each other. You did the whole Israel thing? Was that the only time you went there? No, it had been four times. That was my first time. I was 15. And we stayed in touch, and we continued to go out with each other, and we would rendezvous at the bowling alley.

Really? Because he was in the next town, and then sometimes he would come back and stay. No one's doing comedy yet. You're just kids. No, I told him he would be a—I wanted to be a comedian at that point, but he, I guess, hadn't considered it, and I told him he would be, I wanted to be a comedian at that point, but he, I guess, hadn't considered it. And I told him he would be a great stand-up comic. Was he always like he is?

He was very funny. Always very funny. Oh, yeah? Yes. In that way? Because, like, I've interviewed him, and he's like, you know, we're very different. Yes. And he's a very controlled guy.

Yeah, he was different when we were kids. Both his parents were orphans. Oh, that I didn't know. Yeah. Oh, okay. Which, it's kind of interesting. Cal and Betty. Yeah, you know them, huh?

Yeah, of course I knew them. Of course you grew up with them. Right, you've been over to the house. Yeah. Yeah, I thought that was a very interesting detail. Yeah, that is interesting. And Jerry, I mean, Jerry has a sister. Yeah.

Yeah. But so, okay, so you go out? We go out with each other, and then I broke up with him. But were we just like making out? Yeah. Yeah, I was a kid. I was a kid. And then I went away to college, and he went away to college.

Yeah. Yeah, I was a kid. I was a kid. And then I went away to college, and he went away to college. And then for one semester in my senior year, I went to Queens College. Yeah. And he was going to Queens College, and we sort of started going out again. Crazy.

And then when I really wanted to start doing stand-up and was too scared to do it, at the time, I was watching The Tonight Show, which was very painful for me to watch anything of comedy because I wanted to do it so badly. Really? I was too frightened. Yeah. Were there women that you were watching that were inspirational? I mean, because I know that I was looking around at stuff you did. There was some event you did in tribute to certain women comedy. Yes, yes.

And like, you know, Belle Bart's name was out there. And I'm like, oh, my God. Yeah, I didn't know of her. I mean, but I would watch Toadie Fields on the side show. Sure, yeah. And Phyllis Stiller. Joan. Joan Rivers, of course, yeah. But.

Belle Barthes was filthy. Yes, she was filthy, yes. She had those party albums. Yeah, I have some of those. Right. It's kind of crazy. So then I saw him on his first tonight show and i called i was so naive this is like oh after college this was um yeah this was like 1979 or something maybe

but this is like you would watch it i was watching i was watching as a depressed person i was in bed he had gone that done yes i knew because he started like right out of college. He started. And we were in touch with each other intermittently. And then we kind of lost touch a little bit. I was really depressed. Really? Why?

Because I wasn't doing what I wanted to do with my life. That's it? You don't have the biological depression? No. I don't think so. But, I mean, I don't think so. I don't think it ran in my family. You were a Jew that didn't get it.

You got out of this without any psychological problems? Oh, no. I'm not saying that. No, no, no. I have plenty of psychological problems. But they're managed. Yeah? Yes.

Like how? Like what? Medication and therapy. Oh, yeah? Yeah. Like what were the struggles? Well, anorexia was a big struggle for me. For the whole life? Since I was about 19. Oh, yeah? Yeah. Like, what were the struggles? Well, anorexia was a big struggle for me. For the whole life?

Since I was about 19. Oh, it started at 19? Yes. Oh. Yeah. My mother's anorexic. She is? Yeah.

Oh, does she deal with it or no? Well, she, it's her life. Hmm. I'm sorry. She manages it, I think. Yeah, I'm totally, like, I'm totally like I'm totally my entire emotional core is

directly affected because like body image issues and food issues is the bane of my existence deeply and it's weird

it's tough it's a tough one because we all have to eat yeah well I mean I've kind of assessed it to my degree of it, but it was really about her because it's all she gave a shit about. Yeah. And that's very,

that's very alienating. No, it's very alienating for, I mean, for you as a kid to be, come second to that. I used to do a joke. I say, I think for the first nine years of my life, nine years of my life, my mother just saw me as her fat. Oh, my God. That's very funny and very, very true. Very specific. Yes. Yeah.

Well, I mean, that was the whole thing. It's like she would, you know, if she thought I was chunky and it was like a disaster. Yep. I mean, to project that onto a child is very, very detrimental. Yeah. And my dad was nuts. So, but how does it come on just at 19? That must have affected you. Well, the way I, of course it affected me.

I mean, the way I- So you're depressed. It had to have something to do with it, no? Yeah, I think it had something to do with it. But I mean, I still have, I mean, I have major depression and anorexia is a manifestation of it. But although now they say that anorexia lives on a chromosome and it doesn't necessarily become manifest unless you live in an environment that's conducive and nurturing to the disease to make it proliferate. Forcing you to eat? No, I mean overbearing parents, perfectionism, the need to control, and I have all those things. Yeah?

Yeah. Huh. Yeah. But I've worked so hard on this. You did a one-person show, right? Yes. I'm doing it again at the end of April at the Pico Theater in West LA. Yeah. I hope you

can come. I'd come, but I mean, what are you tour with it? Well, it's just starting. It's just starting out now. So, um, I haven't yet found a way to tour with it and make it a viable thing for me to do. So I'm going to start to do like festivals. So, but do you just, this is new, this show. This is new. I mean, I did it once in, at the Pico last April. How'd it go? It went really well. It went really well.

But it needs to have, I need to get some money behind it so I can do like a three week run to really give it a chance so I can get it reviewed and pull people in.

So I'm going to do this festival in New York in, in the fall. What is that? It's called the United Solo Festival. I was supposed to do it and then COVID hit. I got three words for you.

Jewish community centers. I know. I know. But I think this has more to it. I wouldn't really wish that on anybody. You were very good. You're lovely up there.

You remind me of my grandson. But so it took you this long to process it in this way? Well, you know, it's another story. I never could find a way to talk about it in comedy clubs. I just couldn't find a way in. Yeah. Did you try? I did.

And it just, the audience would like tighten up. That's my favorite place for an audience. Maybe I missed it. Maybe I missed the boat. No, no, no. It's hard. But they would tighten up. They would get so uncomfortable. And like you could talk about alcoholism. Maybe I missed the boat. No, no, no. It's hard. But they would tighten up. They would get so uncomfortable. Like, you could talk about alcoholism.

You could talk about cancer. But when I mentioned anorexia, they would look at me and be frightened. Yeah. And I just couldn't find a way. I needed a different venue. But you're also a person that, you know, you're a joke writer. Yes. So, like, you know, it's restrictive.

But my show's funny. My show's funny, too. But joke writing is restrictive. So, like, you know, it's restrictive. But my show's funny. My show's funny, too. But joke writing is restrictive. Yes, it is. You're right. So if you're trying to do that around this,

it's an added layer of challenge. I have one joke, real joke about it that I did. Yeah. I say that I was turned down for health insurance

because I have a history of anorexia. Well, that's what they said. I know why they really turned me down. It insurance because I have a history of anorexia. Well, that's what they said. I know why they really turned me down. It's because I'm fat. So that's like the only joke joke. But, you know, I wanted to get more truthful about it. Sure, but you want to talk.

That's glib, and I didn't want to be glib in this show. So it took me, I'm embarrassed to say, it took me several iterations, 20 years to get this on stage, from the first inception of an idea that I wanted to do it to and what was the idea? well just that I wanted to talk about it in an empathetic and helpful way

and help people I really feel like I want to be of service and also you had to come out the other side of it to some degree you had to have control over your control issues. That's right. Oh, my God. I'm spiraling downwards.

Yeah. But, yeah, it took me a long time until I found the right partner. I'm working with this woman that I did a play with about 12 years ago. Her name is Laura Coyle. And she co-wrote it with me and she's also directing it. Okay. So we do it uh April 28th to the 30th at the Pico Theater in West LA that's great yeah it's a nice little space and so like

how like so you're 19 when this starts to happen how does it manifest like how do you well I and and the and the the inciting incident was I had this best friend with whom I was very enmeshed in college. And all of a sudden she dumped me. And I was completely, I didn't know what to do. I was so, I don't even know what the word is now, Mark. Help me here. Devastated? I was devastated.

Thank you. And you felt like you were invisible. Okay, there you go. Okay, that's a good one. But I felt like I didn't, all of a sudden my rock was gone. Right. And I didn't know what to do. Why do people like us get that attached to somebody?

It's so unhealthy. No, I know, but were your parents selfish? Yes. I mean, I loved my parents my parents but yes they were selfish each of them because i can't like because i used to do that too where i'd latch on to a friend yeah or i were you the kind of person like if you decided you want someone to be your friend you would make it happen like you try you'd pester them almost or sure no i didn't pester them but i was very proactive i was definitely proactive and you had that one friend? Yes, I would have a best friend

and then I would have other friends too. But this was a very toxic kind of relationship. It really wasn't. And when she dumped me, that's when I went to Queens College for a semester. I had to get out of Albany. I just couldn't even stay there. Oh, it was the first year of college? It was my first semester of my senior year. Okay. And so what happened was she and I went on a diet together. Yeah. And we got these diet pills. We went to this quack doctor in town that all the young women were going to. And we got these diet pills. And I would take them in my controlled manner.

Yeah. I wouldn't just like take them like haphazardly and a lot of them at the time. I would take them a few at a time, a few a week, and I would lose a in my controlled manner. I wouldn't just take them haphazardly and a lot of them at a time. I would take them a few at a time, a few a week, and I would lose a little bit of weight. This is great. This is great. And I basically went from over a period of, I think, two years, I went from 127 pounds to under 85 pounds. And I still thought I was fat. I still thought I was fat. F. I still thought I was fat.

Felt great, though, right? Well, you know. It's a light. It didn't feel great, though. Okay. It didn't feel great because I couldn't appreciate it. Yeah. And it looked horrible.

I remember my freshman year of college, I starved myself to the point where I probably got down to 160-something. And I just, like, I was so excited to go home and show my mother. Oh. And there's pictures of me. I'm like, look at the size of my head. No, of course my mother is sort of like, you got a little skinny. I'm like, go fuck yourself. Oh my God.

After all that? Yeah. It's so funny because she was always, she's always been that way. But during, sadly, she's doing okay. Yeah. But like during COVID and now she had some health issues, she's put on weight that she's not going to take off. And she's got no position on it anymore. Right.

Like I go there, I'm like, how are you doing? Like I'm waiting for this sort of like, you look a little, and you can't do it, can you? It's so mean and weird, but I'm glad she got fat. It's horrible. That's so horrible. She's not fat. I'm sure she's not, but maybe she glad she got fat. Oh, my God. That's horrible. That's so horrible. She's not fat. I'm sure she's not, but maybe she thinks she is. Of course. But, I mean, I weigh more now than I thought I'd ever weigh.

And you know what? I don't love my body. I wish I did. Yeah. But I accept it. I think about it all the time, like most of the day. Your body? Yeah. About like, you know, like, do I not? So you do a, like most of the day. Your body? Yeah. About like, you know, like, do I not?

So you do a lot of self-checking. Oh, the worst. I don't pinch as much as I used to. You know what? I got another style. I'm a woman. You got another what? I got another style of check.

Oh, okay. I don't do the pinching so much. Oh, what do you do? I just kind of pull it up right here. Oh, okay. Wow, you got it. You're in it. you got it you're in it i know you're in it i am um so yeah i mean i to to have reached to reach a level of acceptance is really comforting i mean i realize that i don't have to like something uh in order to accept it and and it's interesting and that And that helped the brain, the anorexic brain.

Oh, yeah. And, you know, I might never really love the way I look, but I accept that because that's who I am. But even in life, even like, you know, there's the sort of thing like, why is that person, like, fuck that person, this or that. Like, I have recovery in other areas. You know, I'm a sober person. Right.

Oh, okay. So we both, yes. So the powerlessness thing and the acceptance thing is real. So when you got that skinny, didn't your parents, weren't they concerned? Oh, my God. They were so concerned and confused. And this was in the 70s

when it really wasn't part of the vernacular. And this is my father's cure. Why don't you just open the refrigerator and take a piece of rye bread? Literally quoting him. And my mother would shove newspaper articles at me, which she did my whole life and which was very off-putting. Yeah. So I ignored that.

About anorexia? Yeah. And it was starting to kind of creep into the New York Times. So I had this job in Manhattan. I was working at an ad agency. Yeah. And my boss, I was in the billing department, and my boss was very concerned about me. And this was at my low weight, like under 85 pounds.

And she said, you don't look good. You really don't look good, and you should go see a doctor. Yeah. And I couldn't listen to my parents. You really don't look good. And you should go see a doctor. Yeah. So, and I couldn't listen to my parents. I just couldn't, I couldn't take it in from them. Right. And so I went to see this doctor and, and bless him, he diagnosed me. Yeah.

He said, you're anorexic. Yeah. And he told, he suggested that I go to the Ackerman Institute for family therapy. And somehow I gathered my family one by one. Where was the Ackerman Institute? East 70 something street. And you did it. And I did it. And we did it for a year or two as a family. And that started me on a road. And then as I moved through life, And as I moved through life, different people suggested different ways to cope. And comedy?

So this must kind of coincide with the comedy starting. I started comedy in 81. I was in family therapy in 78. So, yes, it did. It freed me up enough to face my own life and to do what I wanted to do in my life, which was a hugely important thing. Yeah. I mean, part of my depression was not being able to do what I wanted to do. Because of fear.

All fear. Yeah. All fear. So you're getting a whole different mindset around the eating that kind of spread out throughout your whole life. Mm-hmm. And so when do you try comedy? 81? 81 I started. At Good Times in New York.

I don't even know what that is. A little, like, restaurant, like, they had a stage that you could see, like, it was like a fishbowl. Yeah. And a lot of us started there. Who? Well, Paul, do you know Paul Lyons? Yeah, yeah. He and I have known each other for 41 years.

Rob Ross, he no longer does comedy. Paul Lyons, I think I just saw at Silver's Memorial. Oh, that's, oh. Is that true? I don't know. Is he here? I was not at Silver's Memorial. I was out of town.

Oh. Yeah, who else? Rob Ross And other people that You wouldn't know Yeah Cause they're not around They're not

They're not doing And it was like It was a comedy club Or an open mic thing Or what? It was Not really a comedy club It was a restaurant club

Yeah And But a lot of people started there And It was a lower level place To start Right And I took a comedy club. It was a restaurant club. Yeah. But a lot of people started there and it was a lower level place to start. Right. I took a comedy class.

Yeah, with who? Dick Lord. Dick Lord? Was a Catskills guy. Yes, right. And I met Larry Amorose in that comedy class. Yes, Larry.

You in touch with him? Oh, yeah. Yeah, good. Yeah. And so you would bring in material Yeah And then you know at one point Dick would say Okay you're ready

You got your five minutes Go to good times Yeah He would you know feed people into that class I feel like I talked to somebody else that took this class Oh yeah? Yeah Do you remember other people in there?

Just Larry Oh good fun So okay so he told you you were ready And you go I go And then And I was off and running You did well?

June 28th, 1981 Wow First night I did great Then I went back the next night Bombed But you were in But it was fine I was in

That was it And you had peers Yeah And hanging around Telling me, you know Go try the dugout in the village and go to this place and that place. And then I ran into Bill Maher one time at the improv. And he said, look, if you ever need some help, give me a call.

And I thought, I'm going to take him up on it. So I said, I really would like to audition at Catch Rising Star. And he helped set me up on an audition. It was December 5th, 1981. And I remember this because my nephew was born. And I was so happy and excited that my sister had a healthy baby that it made, it took the pressure off of doing a set. It just made it seem so much less important. Right.

And I had a great set. And then I passed auditions there. At Catch. At Catch. Yeah. And that was my home club in the city. Really? So at that point, Jerry was gone?

Jerry was in L.A. Okay. Yeah. Because this was sort of after the big boom of the 70s. Right. And it was the beginning of the other thing, the 80s. Right. The comedy club spreading out everywhere. Right, right.

And because Belushi died 80s. Right. The comedy club spreading out everywhere. Right, right. And like, because Belushi died in 81. Yes. So the whole drug insanity at Catch was, that was attached to the hipsterness of it all. Right. Was sort of dying down. And Bud was no longer at the improv, right? He was in LA. For a while, I guess.

And Silver had that place. Oh, I, you know, I became good friends with Silver in more recent years. But I remember auditioning for her. And I was so green. I wore skirt. I wore jeans, skirt, and a crew neck sweater. And I did my set, and I didn't do very well. And I, like a novice, I went around and I found her in the club.

And I said, do you have any feedback for me? And she looked at me. She looked off into space and then she looked back at me and she said, some things are better left unsaid. Oh, my God. And I talked to her about this and she said, well, that's a terrible thing to say. Yeah. She had her days, huh? Yeah. She had her days, huh? Yeah. I mean, when I first got to New York, she let me work there in the later 80s, where I couldn't really work anywhere else.

I couldn't go to Catcher, the Cellar. It took years to get into those places. Lucian kind of let me work eventually. I worked at the comic strip in Catch, and I really didn't work the improv much when I was in New York. Well, it's kind of a beat-up place in a way. But it was also not transportation-wise. I lived on the Upper West Side. I would take a crosstown bus, and then I would just do those two clubs. Right, because they were uptown.

Yeah. Who wants to go to Hell's Kitchen? Yeah. I mean, it was out of the way. Yeah, yeah. So who's in your generation to catch now? Who's still there? Susie Essman, Joy Behar, Bev Mickens.

But like Larry was gone, Jerry was gone. Larry was gone, Jerry was gone. Colin was there? Colin was at the, he was bartending at the comic strip. At the comic strip. Oh, a comic strip? Yeah. Oh, and you know, Scott Blakeman was there.

Rob Ross, Bill Masters. Bill Masters. Good friend. Still a good friend of mine was there, Rob Ross, Bill Masters. Bill Masters. Good friend. Still a good friend of mine. I did a pilot with Bill Masters. Oh, you did? We wrote. I had a deal at Fox Studios. He's such a great guy. And his wife was running Fox.

Gail, yes. And we couldn't get the pilot. That's hilarious. And Gail knows her business. I'm sorry. Yeah. Can't do it yeah that's so funny well yeah

so that's like that's a lot of people I mean tons of people yeah I mean I mean but Steve Schaefer Steve Schaefer

um Middleman was my boyfriend for three and a half years that's wild we lived together and then we moved we started to move to LA and then we broke up when we got back to New York and then we moved out here separately in 85.

So you, oh, you came out to LA and then you went back? I found us an apartment. Oh, okay. We went back, we broke up. Yeah. And, um. Was it terrible or good? The breakup?

Yeah. Well, I mean, it was a breakup. It wasn't great, but then my father thought I wasn't going to go out to LA. I said, no, I'm still going out. Yeah. So we went out. Steve and I moved out separately.

Yeah. And Mitzi was really good to me at the comedy store. Since what, 82? 85. Oh, 85. Yeah.

She was really good to me and she started- She had a lot of women then. Yes. Yes. And I met Carrie Snow. I met Roseanne. She came really good to me, and she started- She had a lot of women then. Yes, yes. And I met Carrie Snow. I met Roseanne. She came out in 85. Karen Haber, Louise Duart.

Oh, yeah. The Impressionist. Yes, I remember her. She was doing it. And it was like Joey Kamen. Right. And Steve Odenkirk. Steve Odenkirk, whom I'm still friends with him.

Yep. Yes. And Damon Wayans and Belzer. Damon. We met Valerie Pappas. Valerie Pappas. Valerie Pappas and I used to stand in the back and watch Damon on stage and laugh and laugh, and then he would do something horrible, and we'd look at each other, and we'd go, Oh, Damon.

Exactly. Oh, Damon. That's what he should have called his special. Oh, Damon. Yeah, and Valerie P. That's what he should have called his special. Oh, Damon. Yeah, and Valerie Pappas, I kind of forgot about her. She's great. But you're one of these people that I would see almost every night during my drugged out weird doorman days.

Right. And then I don't know what happens to anybody. So you were just a touring act? Yeah. Once you came out here, you work out at the store, and then you would headline? I toured a lot. I toured a lot, and then I got to

the point where I was... Clubs? Clubs, yes. And then I did several TV pilots that never got picked up. What, you had deals? I never had a deal. But you wrote them for yourself? No, no. I was cast. Oh, okay. Right. I was cast. Okay. And never got picked up, though. Yeah.

And... But did some episodic stuff work? Yeah, did episodic stuff. Did a lot of late night stuff. Yeah. You know, did a lot of Tonight Shows. Well, you did with Johnny, right? Did with Johnny.

Did with Jay. How many did you do with Johnny? Four or five. I can't remember. And Jay was four or five. Uh-huh. And I was on the last two anniversary shows, which was like an incredible honor. For which one?

For the Tonight Show? Tonight Show, yeah. Oh, yeah? So what was your experience around that? Like when you got here, because like I didn't know what the hell I was doing, but I mean, but you had a career in mind because you have that kind of brain.

So you had in mind what you wanted other than to just be a comedian? I knew, well, I knew I wanted to do the Tonight Show. I mean well i knew i wanted to do the tonight show i mean almost every comic sure wanted to do the tonight show yeah and then i you know and then i i had a manager and i did want to do acting i i enjoyed it and i thought i was good at it yeah um and um and i i did have some success i mean enough success, but not, I never like hit it big, you know, obviously. Yeah, me neither. The weirdest thing about, it's just,

you just get enough to keep you delusional enough to keep going. Subsisting, I'm subsisting. And, but I, you know, I never give up hope. You know, I never give up hope because it's what I love to do. But like in terms of touring, like when you did The Tonight Show at that time, were you able to draw and do all right out there? I did okay.

But I have to say that it was a time when the comedy clubs were filling themselves, you know. And I would get a plug. And yes, it helped fill the room. Right. But I never became, I was never enough of a road warrior to really build a road following. But was your experience

out there okay? It was okay. I mean, some clubs I loved. Yeah. Many clubs I hated. Yeah. You know,

I never want to have to work a room again where I see somebody walk up to the window in the middle of the afternoon wearing a baseball cap that's like a trucker's cap sitting high on his head and saying, who's the comic tonight? You know, I just don't want to have to work that again.

I mean, I really want to work to an audience who wants to see me. Is that so much to ask, Mark? No, it's all I ever wanted, and it has happened a miracle, some sort of strange cosmic timing. Right. You know, worked out, and I was at the end of it. I was like— I know. I was looking down the barrel at either a B-room headliner for life or a gun.

Right. Right. I mean, I understand. Yeah. I understand. It was frustrating out there. I loved Catch a Rising Star in Cambridge. That was my favorite club.

Yeah, I lived in Boston. I mean, that used to be my home club kind of. Such a great club. Yeah, it was the old Jonathan Swift's. It was down in the basement. Oh, right. JFK. After I hit the wall here.

Yes. I went to rehab and then I moved back to Boston where I went to college and started doing comedy again. And at that time, what was that? The first time I got sober, it was like 87 or something, 88. It was me and Dave Cross and Janine Garofalo. Oh, wow. Jonathan Garofalo. There was a whole crew of like people my age who were a kite linger.

Yes. That was who was hanging out down there. Oh, that was fun. Yeah. Those were fun days, very creative days. And you would come in, people like you would come in and headline and we'd come watch. Right. But like Mondays, I think it was like Monday and Tuesdays were the open mics. Yeah. Those were fun days, very creative days. And you would come in, people like you would come in and headline, and we'd come watch. Right. But like Mondays, I think it was like Monday and Tuesdays, were the open mics.

Right. Or the, for us, for local, you know, people working out. Right. And one week I worked there with Jeff Stillson, and that was so fun. I just talked about him with Ronnie Chang. Oh. And like, I want to get Stillson on here. You can.

No reason why you can't. No, I know. I don't know why we haven't. He must have been in Australia or something. No. I mean, I've been doing this a long time. He's been working a lot. He's been working with Louis Black.

Right. Huh. I wonder if he's mad at me or something. Maybe he just didn't come up. Well. You'll find out. Everyone's mad at you, Mark. Again?

No, I'm kidding. I thought I fixed it. That's what you think, I'm sure.. Well. You'll find out. Everyone's mad at you, Mark. Again? No, I'm kidding. I thought I fixed it. That's what you think, I'm sure. I thought I worked it all out. So, but you just kind of, and you write? You're on staff? I was writing on staff on Roseanne for a year. How was that?

It was crazy. Yeah. It was really crazy. And we laughed until we cried, and we cried until we left. Who else was in that room? Oh, my God. Carrie Snow. Lois Bromfield was another one I met. That's who I was really crazy. And we laughed until we cried, and we cried until we left. Who else was in that room? Oh, my God. Carrie Snow. Lois Bromfield was another one I met.

That's who I was talking about. Okay, Lois Bromfield. Alan Steven. What season was it? This was the penultimate season. Season eight, I think. So it was really crazy. So we were in, yeah, and we were in joke.

I mean, it was a staff of 27. Wow. Which whittled down to 22. And we were in a joke room and it was like a machine. That place was a machine. Yeah. I mean, no other show had a staff that huge. And then I worked on

Caroline in the City and I was a recurring character while I was writing on staff. That went on for a while, didn't it? Four years, but I only remained there for two-thirds of a season because I just didn't want to be behind the scenes. I really wanted to be in front of the camera. Again, you've got to get out.

I've got to get out. I knew you were going to say it as soon as I started telling this story. Uh-oh, he's got me. I've got to get out of here. Yeah. And do you work with Caroline Ray? I worked on the Caroline Ray show in New York. I was writing on that show.

She's coming around the store again. Yeah. Well, she never came before, and I told her to come. And she was nervous about it. I'm like, don't be. She's like, is it like the Comedy Cellar? I'm like, nothing like the Comedy Cellar. No one's going to, you know, just come and just do sets.

The store is very good right now. Yeah, I know. I mean, I can't even get spots there. Oh, really? Yeah, put an availability. I mean, I was able to run my Tonight Show set. Huh. Yeah, I don't know. Like, it's an odd thing. That was my home availability. I mean, I was able to run my Tonight Show set. Huh. Yeah, I don't know.

It's an odd thing. That was my home club. I know. But it's very different than it ever was right now. And it's very kind of balanced, and there's no egos running the place. Oh, that's good. Peter's running it from Portland. So nice.

Yeah. But just in terms of performance, that place was very vulnerable to any sort of, you know, swinging dick to just take over the place. Right. And then you got to deal with chaos. Right.

But that's not happening. That's great. It's crazy. That's great. And it's got, you know, all those rooms that you can work. It's great.

It's great. But like, I thought it was, I thought it was great that you were on the tonight show because you do represent a generation. Yes. And what's odd about it is that I started to realize this because Driesen's back. He's older than you, but he's back.

Right. Argus never left. No one's even sure if he's not a ghost. Right. But I mean, there's an audience. Yeah. And it's a big audience that doesn't really have that much representation in stand-up anymore. It's weird.

Yeah. When you think about it, I mean, you know, Jerry does Jerry, but Jerry's just this massive star that can go out and make money, whatever. But, like, just in terms of working stand-ups, I don't know who's out there doing it. And I've kind of become, like, I think it's great. I mean, most of us have moved on to other venues in our careers. I guess that's what it is. I mean, I'm just like the spinning plate person on the Ed Sullivan show. I mean, I'm doing my solo show.

I want to do stand-up. I want to act. But you've never stopped? No. Yeah. I've never stopped. I mean, certainly I've slowed stopped? No. Yeah. I've never stopped. I mean, certainly I've slowed down at times.

I don't work at the pace that I used to in the 80s and the early 90s. Do you have a family? You raised a family? I have a daughter. She's 19. Oh, wow. How's that? She's good. She's good. She's a tough one. She's a tough one. She's from China.

And she's real independent. She's a tough one. She's from China, and she's real independent. Yeah. And she's doing well. That must have all its own challenges to have adopted. My brother's got three adopted kids. Oh, wow. Yeah.

That's great. Yeah. That's fantastic. Yeah, it does have its own challenges, and especially a non-domestic adoption with someone who's clearly not from us. Right, right, right. And she, oh my God, she said the funniest thing. My soon-to-be ex-husband, Tom,

went to get a haircut at Fantastic Sam's and he came back and it was a really short haircut. Yeah, yeah. And my daughter said, you look like a cop who would stop a black person for no reason. Yeah, yeah. And my daughter said, you look like a cop who would stop a black person for no reason. Oh, my God.

Very specific. She's very witty. Very witty. So, I mean, like, how did, like, not to be rude or judgmental, but, like, how do you get to Tonight Show at this point?

Here's how I got it. It's not rude and judgmental because, yes, you're correct. Yeah. I did the Hermosa Comedy and Magic Club in July of last year. Yeah. And they videotaped all the sets. Yeah. And I was nervous because I hadn't been in front of a live audience in a while

yeah because of covid yeah and i had a really great set yeah and i sent the set to my manager glenn uh-huh and he loved it and unbeknownst to me he sent it to the tonight show so um and and michael liked it and said oh i wanted to do the show. But it took, you know, six months to get a date. But, like, I like doing Jimmy. Me too. And I like him. Yeah, me too. Out of all of them, he's the best audience.

He's a doll. And I know him from, you know, years ago. Oh, you do? Yes. Oh, because, like, all he wants you to do is make him laugh. Like, they are so relieved with somebody who can just do the thing because it makes their job easier.

Yes, absolutely. And he's just looking at you like, are we going to do it? Yeah, I'll get it. I like doing that show. But it doesn't have the same impact

it used to, but it feels good to do it. It does feel good to do it. And he was very cute when he was like, this is your 10th one. He associated himself with the legacy

of the Tenebra. Yes, well, it's the same franchise. Yeah. And did it feel great? It felt great. It was really fun. I mean, it was slightly nerve-wracking because I hadn't done a late night in seven years. I can't imagine doing a five-minute set.

But it was so fun. I really enjoyed doing this. I was really in my element. And I remember thinking to myself while I'm doing the set, I'm thinking, okay, it's going okay. It's going okay. And then I said, I fumpered over some words and I had to repeat a few words. And I'm thinking, that's okay. People do that.

It's the worst when your brain skids. Oh, yeah. Where you just sort of like, I don't know. I don't think anyone noticed that. I didn't notice that you. No, because people do that, like I thought. Right. People do that.

Look at you not being a perfectionist. I know. Isn't that something? See how, but therapy's really paid off. You're not beating the shit out of yourself a week later. I'm not. It's great. It is great. I know. I'm really, like, gleaning some happiness from this. Good. It's fun.

Well, it's great talking to you. Oh, my God. This was a blast. So fun. Good. And let me know when, send me the information and we'll plug the show. Oh, great. What's the eating disorder show called? Does This Show Make Me Look Fat. Okay. Well, I hope that you get that going good. Thank you. And I really think I can help a lot of people. And when I've done it

and presented it online for readings and stuff, I've always heard from people who say, thank you so much for talking about this, and I'm struggling with this. Yeah. I mean, people, like, no matter how much the culture seems to have awareness of it, it's still, you know, a thing that, you know, it's hard. Well, it's a big problem, I have to say, because our society is complicit with it. It really does support having an eating disorder. Yeah, that and youth culture.

Yes. So like anorexic seniors have real tough. I know. Nobody cares. Tough demographic. It is. It really is. All right.

Good talking to you. Great to talk to you. That was fun. That was fun talking to Kathy Ladman. Again, she'll be at the Newberry Theater in South Carolina and the Pico Theater in Los Angeles next month. Go to kathyladman.com for dates and ticket info and hang out for a minute, will you?

You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea and ice cream? Yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats. Get almost, almost anything. Order now.

Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com.

For full Marin subscribers, we've got another Ask Mark Anything posted with my answers to your questions. If you were at the comedy store and collapsed and looked up just before you popped your mortal coil, which comedian would you be happy was the last person you saw? And which one would you not like to see before you were carried away by baby angels?

Who would I like to see? Which comedian would I like to see? Which comedian would I like to see? It's a very sad moment. It would be nice to see Maz Jobrani. He'd be a nice guy to see at the end. He's a very pleasant fella. To listen to that and all our bonus content, plus every episode of WTF ad-free,

go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFpod.com, click on WTF Plus, and sign up for the full Marin. Next week, big week, Brooke Shields on Monday and Kelly Reichardt on Thursday. These were two amazing women who I was very excited to talk to.

Totally excited. So that'll come through. Here's some muddy guitar work. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Boomer lives. Monkey, La Fonda, cat angels everywhere. I think I fucked up my mic stand.