WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1425 - Steven Yeun

Episode Date: April 10, 2023

Three episodes into the Netflix series Beef, Steven Yeun's character is emotionally overwhelmed in a Korean church. As the former leader of a praise band and the son of devout immigrant parents, it isn't surprising Steven was able to hit the right note. Steven and Marc talk about his upbringing in Michigan, his time in Chicago doing Second City improv, his encounters with cultural gatekeeping, his liberating role on The Walking Dead, his Oscar nomination for Minari and much more. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated

category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die we control nothing beyond that

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Lock the gates! All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck nicks? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast, WTF. It's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast.

WTF. It's been my podcast for a long time. I think we're in our 13th year here or something like that. Isn't that crazy? Hundreds and hundreds of conversations. If you're curious about that, who's been on WTFpod.com slash podcast, you can do a search. Sometimes I have to do it. I literally have to search my own shows archives on my, what I'm my own website to see if I talk to a person on my show. But I guess that's just the nature of doing this thing for a long time. How are you? How's everything today on the show? I talked to Steven Yoon, who I'm sure you know from The Walking Dead.

He was in the movie Nope. He was nominated for Best Actor in 2021 for his performance in Minari. He has a new Netflix series, Beef, with Ali Wong, who I love. And I got to tell you, watched all 10 of them. I think that's how many there were. I just went through them before they were even out. I watched every one of them, and those two acted the fuck out of this thing.

Everybody's great in it. Look, I don't know if I'm getting soft or I'm just more, I don't know what it is, less judgmental, but I don't think that's it. Steven Yeun, certainly, and I've seen him in many things. I've seen him in most of the things that he's been in, at least for a while. I didn't watch, I mean, I bailed on Walking Dead after the first season, but I get it. And he's a great actor.

He may be one of the best actors of his generation. I'm going to say that. And Ali Wong has really gotten the hang of it as well. She's awesome in this thing. Just, it's great. It's engaging. It's exciting. It's a little menacing. It's a good show, this beef. I'm telling you. I'm telling you. So look, I'm not saying I fucked up my life, but I did. I'm not saying I regret it. I don't. I don't have regrets necessarily, but I do find myself wondering, you know, there's this weird difference between like,

look, I'm a guy that feeds on the moment. You know, I know all about the now. All you have is now. I know all I have is now and I'm eating it. I'm eating it as we speak. I'm feasting on the now to the point where I don't always remember it when it was then. Like, it's not clear to me. I don't know if I'm getting Alzheimer's or dementia like my father, but the then thing is, uh, it, it, it's, it's, it gets a little foggy or something. I have to be reminded because I'm all in in the moment. I really am. I think it's just the way I've designed my life.

I wish I had given myself a little distance from the now, now, now. I wish I had given myself a little distance from it to the point where I had to delegate or hold something back or plan a little better for whatever my creative output is. But it's really now, now, now, now. And then, you know, after it's over, I'm like, what just happened? And I got to go back over it. I got to listen. So there's some part of me that's doing that. And I, you know, I don't know if I'm annoying or draining or I don't, uh,

nurture friendships as much as I should, but, uh, I don't spend time with a lot of people and I don't know why I feel like I have friends. I mean, I hang out with Jerry. I talked to my friend, Sam, but me and Sharpling can't seem to get it together. It's been months. We can't just get it together. Like let's just have lunch. Let's say, I don't know what happens and, you know, things get away from me and I guess I got to start entertaining people. I do this every year for every fucking holiday. And I'm sorry. You know, I don't know if I would go if I was invited, but you kind of like to be invited, I guess, but I'd probably go to a friend of mine's Seder. But then you start to think about it. It's like, is somebody just going to invite you to a Seder? Cause they know you, I can't get mad about it. You know, I can't feel hurt about it. This is

why people don't invite me. Maybe I get too emotionally invested too quickly with new friendships or with people in general. And they're like, you know, it's like taxing and it doesn't go both ways. I don't know. I don't understand it. But I have a new buddy who's a Jew. And, yeah, I thought Passover was sort of like bringing the stragglers. You know, it's like, you know, put another chair out, leave that one empty for Elijah,

but we can put one next to it. We're out of chairs. Well, then let him sit in the Elijah chair. And maybe if Elijah comes, he'll sit on his lap. That should be something. That'd be a memorable Seder. If the ghost comes in and drinks while he's on our wayward friend's lap. Where was my invite?

I guess I could have had a Seder here. I don't know, man. I just don't, I don't know if I, look, man, I keep my house together. I clean, you know, I stay in shape. You know, I like everything to be nice. But I guess the other part about being an adult, it's like I can make my bed,

but apparently I don't entertain enough. I don't have people over. I don't socialize or something. I don't know. But maybe they'll start to come around now that all these people that I lost to children, all their kids are old now. So maybe they'll be like, what are you doing, man? I got, you know, I'm free. I'm finally free after 20 years.

Hey, dude, I got a little extra time. It's, I know it's been 18 years, but I got some time now because, uh, yeah, they're out. They're out there. Everyone's out of the house. We don't know what to do. Friends are downsizing. Was hanging out with Apatow and, uh, Flanny the other night. You know, you're just hanging around with guys your age that half the time you're talking about other people. You know, you're just hanging around with guys your age that half the time you're talking about other people, the other time you're talking about your ass, your balls, your blood work, this or that ailments. Wondering if I should be eating that. Is that a good number? Is that not a good number? How's my stomach? What's going on

with that thing? Did you get it checked? Got to put a limit on that shit, man. Definitely got to put a limit on that shit. Hey, I'm at Largo this Friday, April 14th. Go to wtfpod.com slash tour for tickets. I'll be floundering. I think I'm going to, I think, I think I'm going to work on a new hour. It's going to be called Mark Maron, not relatable. That's my big plan. Mark Maron, not relatable. You think that's a good pitch? Also, I guess I got to get this up on the site, but I'm going to be doing a music show at Largo on the 12th of May. See, that's the other thing I'm battling with, you know, and I was talking at the beginning about the now, the now, the now, right? And I went into the attic. In the attics of your life filled with me.

filled with me. I don't know the words, but, uh, I went into the attic cause I, I got a plan. So I've got these four boxes of, of slides. I had to go find them in my attic. So I'm up in the attic and there's, it's my shit. It's not like, you know, what's in the attic. I know it's in the attic. I put it in the attic. It's not like, you know, there's not centuries old shit in the attic. It's just the, you know, the history of me in about a dozen boxes in different forms, old artwork, old writing, or a bunch of videotapes, cassette tapes. But there's these four boxes of slides and carousels that my parents had. They were around the house from the early sixties. I got slides of their wedding. I got slides of trips they took in the early 60s. And then there's the birth of me and just random stuff on slides. So I went online. I got promoted this. A sponsored ad came up on

one of my feeds about this slide app where you can hold the slide up over a white screen and take a picture of it. It'll clean up the image and make it an image on your phone or on your computer. So I got it, and it's kind of amazing. On my Instagram, at Mark Maron, I posted a picture of me in some pretty groovy pants. But so I'm going through that, and I think I'm going to hold on to the app. But what am I doing? What am I salvaging? What do I need to know? That I wore those pants when I was four? What do I need to know? That I lived, that I existed, that I had no journals when my wife left me, when Mishno left me.

And I'm reading them. And it's amazing when you do actually journal the immediacy of the feelings that come out on that page. And also, it's hard to read old journals when you realize like, wow, man, I'm still spinning the same fucking plates. But I don't know. Maybe I'll go over this stuff. Maybe I'll go over it on some bonus content. Maybe I'll do a journal thing. I'll try to find select pieces of these journals of heartbreak and read them aloud. So what else has been happening? Look, I've been going to a Tarantino's theater, not at his house, but the new Beverly.

I went to with kit and saw the In-Laws the other night, a movie I've seen so much, but I it's, it's sort of sad and interesting that these prints, cause he's using, these are 35 millimeter prints. And if that was the best print he could find in the In-Laws, all that stuff is going away, man. It's literally fading away. And the experience of seeing film on film is kind of spectacular. And I was in a full room, a full theater of people, many who have not seen The In-Laws because they asked a guy who was curating asked. And to see people laugh at that movie for the first time was just beautiful. And me having seen it a dozen times, at least laughing my balls off.

I'm sorry. Laughing my ass off. That doesn't matter. Laughing. Like, and just like all of a sudden I'm, I'm, I'm able to laugh a little more. What a relief. I don't know what was stopping it, but I'm laughing a lot. And, and we had a nice time. And then two days later we go to see the Godfather two, which kid had never seen. And I've seen that a dozen, 20 times, but on film, that was a better print. Wow. What a fucking treat to be in a movie theater with people,

time traveling, watching The Godfather 2. A couple of things though. How did he not know that Fannucci was the boss of the block? It doesn't matter. Look, movies are movies. Listen, Steven Yeun is here and I gotta be honest with you. This series is great. Look, movies are movies. Listen, Stephen Yoon is here. And I got to be honest with you. This series is great. He's great in it, as is Ali, as is everyone involved. It's called Beef. And all the episodes are streaming on Netflix now.

This is me and Stephen Yoon hanging out. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. out. podcast episode where I talked to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative.

It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton? The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. You've been playing all your life? I'm self-taught since sixth grade.

And so you learn by memorizing licks or just, like, copying songs you like. Who do you like to play? Oh, man. I'm a suburb, emo, 90s alt-rock kid. So I was, like, listening to, like, Nirvana. Yeah, exactly. Like, Nirvana or Incubus or, like, you know what I mean? We all have our version of, like, townie rock. Yeah. Oh, and then I go deeper, exactly. Like Nirvana or Incubus or like, you know what I mean? We all have our version of like townie rock.

Yeah. Oh, and then I go deeper though. I go into Christian rock too. Oh, really? Because I grew up in the church. So it's like- Oh, so that's how you did it for Beef for the show? Oh, you watched it?

I did, yeah. Oh, hell yeah. Did you watch all of it? I did. Thank you. Fuck yeah. Dude, that was like the trippiest thing to do. That was like something familiar to you.

Oh, yeah, absolutely. And like the craziest kind of familiar because you have to approach it with like self-aware honesty. In particular, the sort of Korean Christian youth church. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You have to be earnest about it. You do, whereas I feel like if you are not, you render it in judgment, good or bad, which I think is just off.

If you don't sort of commit to the honesty of it, it can be read differently, either like you're condescending or you're mocking or whatever. Or even uplifting it in a way that I'm not even intending to. It's kind of just like... Oh, right. So there's also the issue of or you're mocking or whatever. Or even uplifting it in a way that I'm not even intending to. Yeah. It's kind of just like. Oh, right. So there's also the issue of like you're selling it. Yeah.

And I don't want to do either. I just want to be like humans exist here as well. You know what I mean? But wait, you grew up with that? Oh, yeah. Deep. Deep. Oh, really?

Yeah. So where'd you grow up? I grew up in, so I was born in Korea, and then we moved. Oh, wow. Yeah. So your parents are, you're not, you're first generation. I'm first generation, yeah. Yeah.

What we would say when we first came over here was I was called a 1.5-er. Yeah. Where I was like five when I came, four when I came over. Yeah. And so we moved to Canada first for about a year and then moved to Michigan. So did you move to Michigan? Mm-hmm. And you grew up in Michigan, but did you get citizenship in Canada or how did it work? So my dad was actually chilling in Korea. He was like an architect.

He had a house in Seoul before the 88 Olympics. Like there was no need for us to leave. Yeah. But my theory is, is that he's the second born son of five sons yeah which is probably the most unseen son yeah really in the family you know what i mean like the first born gets all like the spoils right in the second one just kind of gets has to do all the things that an older brother has to do but then they regroup and do another one with a little more focus or uh what do you mean like there's five of them there's five of them and he's a second so there's a second oh yeah after three more after and he and he like really like

took care of his younger brothers oh yeah yeah and so like i've asked him this and he won't he won't corroborate but he'll like silently nod his head to be like maybe um i was like oh you left because like you wanted to like desperately like claim your stake and like be seen you wanted to like be noticed for your for what you've done yeah and so was he a successful architect yeah he was working at a firm like he was doing it he was like on the trajectory all of his friends were like why are you leaving huh you own a home in seoul yeah before the 88 olympics if we stayed on that property and my mom was like, don't sell it. Let's wait till after the Olympics.

Yeah. But during the Olympics was when a lot of like, you know, student protests and a lot of social unrest and upheaval was happening. And so like things felt very, I guess maybe for his eyes, untenable. Yeah. And so we left. But like if he would have just stayed, we probably could have sold that house for like millions of dollars.

I just, I have no, why would I have any sense? I just don't know what it would be like to live in South Korea. Yeah. I mean,

to me, it's just sort of like, I'm nervous enough here, but just to be living. South Korea is great right now. It is? It's been for a long time but what about the fucking weirdo up in North Korea

you just that's just something you deal with or adapt to or don't think about I think so I mean I wouldn't particularly know like the deep deep but like I remember visiting the year that Kim Jong Il died

the old man and I was like in Korea and I was like oh shit like do we need to like the year that Kim Jong-il died. Yeah. The old man. Yeah. And I was like in Korea and I was like, oh shit, like do we need to like batten down the hatches or something?

Like what's going on? And people were just like, no, like it's just like, it's just there. They're going to do their thing. Yeah. Yeah.

It's just like a threat you understand. Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's like shark infested waters. But you visit there a threat you understand. Uh-huh. Right, yeah. Yeah, it's like shark-infested waters. But you visit there often? I used to go pretty often.

I hope to go more often. Because you have family there still? I have family there, and I was working there a lot. Not a lot. Two movies I did. Oh, in the film. Yeah, right, right. Two Korean movies?

Yeah, yeah. And are your grandparents there? Anybody left? No, my grandparents are all passed away. Yeah. I have a lot of aunts and uncles and a lot of cousins. Yeah, I got like 40 cousins, man. Really?

Yeah. So, okay, so they come to Canada, but does he, you know, I know, do you stay an architect? No. I mean, I remember growing up him having a drafting board and like, you know. Yeah. It was fun like stealing his like, you know, those things where you can like rub out a tree. Yeah, yeah, you know. Yeah. It was fun, like, stealing his, like, you know, those things where you can, like, rub out a tree. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

On the thing. Those rubber eraser things. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I would just, like, mess with those. But, like, beyond that, he never touched it. Instead, he started a beauty supply, which is common for, like, it was, like, for Koreans in that area. It was a laundromat or beauty supply.

How does that, why does that happen? Do you have any idea? Just in the same way that all networks happen. You know, like there's like a cultural network that exists. And then when you immigrate, you kind of like get access to that network. But why those two businesses? I have no clue. Like that's what they found, you know?

Like I have no clue. Like, that's what they found, you know? Like, I have no clue. It's so, it always strikes me as odd, because I remember I had a landlord in New York who was Dominican, and he was a dentist, but he couldn't be a dentist here unless he went to school again. Yeah. So he just was doing other shit. Yeah. But it's just odd to me.

Like, there's a guy who's a comic from Egypt, used to be a heart surgeon. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know that guy? Yeah, I don't know him. I forget his name. And now he's just like here, and I'm like, what the fuck are you doing? Well, you get- to be a heart surgeon yeah yeah you know that guy i forget his name and now he's just like here and i'm like what the fuck are you doing well you get your heart surgeon you're getting to you're getting to which is a deeper conversation yeah in my opinion you're getting to the way that society renders people you know like um maybe the things that we've been talking about like on the surface for the last decade plus, which is like, and forever, which is why, like, why does this place move me in unconscious ways as an outsider that I can't explain to an insider?

You mean America? America or any place. Any place you immigrate to. Yeah, that you immigrate to. America. America. Or any place. Any place you immigrate to.

Yeah, that you immigrate to. It's like, why am I being pushed and shoved and positioned and locked in a specific place that I can only operate that is so unconscious to me in ways. You're like, I was a heart surgeon and you can protest and proselytize that however much you want. But they're like, nah, but you can only drive this. You can drive a cab. And it's like, wow. I see what you're saying you know what i mean yeah i just that i that you you either have to do what's necessary to uh uh be credentialed in the place you go to or or just do another job

yeah and and and usually if you have to let go of your credentials which like a lot of those things don't transfer over. Right. You get reset into just like the Matrix. And you're like, you look like that. You go over there. Yeah. Or you, but it seems like not unlike, you know, the character that you play in the show that there's this, if you have it within you to have an entrepreneurial spirit about it, just to survive, that we make a business.

It seems that culturally sometimes, it doesn't matter what the business is as long as it's successful, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's about figuring out how to make that business and provide for your family. Totally, totally. out totally how to make that business totally and and and provide for your family totally totally and and you know you can get deeper into it as like who's allowed under the cloak of light or darkness to make a business without getting fucked with yeah you know that's not available to everybody well then then it seems that that community element comes in yeah absolutely that you know when you come in as an immigrant and you meet the tribal elders.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which, case in point, Korean church. We're back to that. Yeah. That's what Korean church is. Yeah, it seems like that. It works that way for a lot of specific religious groups. Yeah, yeah.

I mean, depending on how insulated, you know, like the Orthodox, the ultra-Orthodox. Yeah. You know, they, I live here in Armenia. Mm-hmm. And it's like, you know, they have their own things, man. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I, like, Armenians I understand. Yeah.

As a Korean person, I'm like, I get Armenians. Like, that's a deep, deep cut. So when did you get here? How old were you? To L.A.? No, deep cut. So when did you get here? How old were you? To L.A.? No, to America. To Michigan? So I was four, and then I grew up in Michigan until I moved to Chicago after college.

But what part of Michigan? Was it a big Korean community? Big enough. You didn't want to go to New York or, you know? I don't even know how to get to New York, man. I mean, your dad? I mean, like, it's just like, I guess there's Korean communities everywhere. I mean, it's a pretty big immigrant.

A lot of immigrants here. Here's what I'll say. Like, in hindsight, I remember when I was in high school and, like, middle school, I would meet New York Koreans and I would meet, like, L.A. Koreans. They were, like, super scary to me. Really? Because they were, like, freer in a way that i couldn't understand like they're you know like not only were they like seemingly more imposing in just their style and their stature

yeah um but they were just like living as if like they were just living a little bit more free like la asians could you know you can have a community that looks so much like the place that you know feels inside you feel like an insider yeah whereas for me I was like a perpetual outsider in Michigan in Michigan like I could feel it in my church yeah which is like 400 people deep at most yeah but then the minute you step outside, like you just shrink to the matrix of the thing. Really? Right. And like, it wasn't even per se that I was being pushed down. Yeah. It was more like, you know, my parents as non-English speaking, uh, immigrants, like they were my model on how to navigate reality. Yeah. And they weren't going out shaking hands, hanging out, going to parties.

Right. They were just putting their head down, quiet, doing work. And staying within, like, but. Yeah, staying within their boundaries. And the community. And the community, yes. So everybody socialized with the same people. Well, the thing about New York is, like, Koreans are pretty well integrated.

Same with here. You know, like. Same with here. It's forced. It's a different type of integration. Not unlike whatever beauty supply and cleaning or whatever. I mean, the bodegas were almost all Korean. Yeah, yeah, totally. Totally, yeah. And you just pick up weird sort of like the thing that always fascinated me about the Korean business model with the bodegas is that they'd have people sitting out front, like, trimming grapes.

Like, to make their fruit salad. Like, nothing goes to waste. You'd buy these fruit salads, and the grapes would have little shaved parts of it because they'd literally take the brown spots off. Margins, dude. Margins. Totally. And I was like, oh, my God, I got to remember that. Yeah, yeah. Because, like, I'm very, I'm thrifty. I hate throwing away food.ins, dude. Margins. Totally. And I was like, oh, my God, I got to remember that. Yeah, yeah.

You know, because, like, I'm very, I'm thrifty. I hate throwing away food. Yeah, yeah. But any time stuff starts to go bad, I always think of the Korean bodegas where they're just out in front. That's just post-war. That's post-war margins. You know what I mean? Like, you know, nothing's going to waste.

Yeah. We're throwing it all. I just read about this. Did you hear about this thing in medieval times called the perpetual stew? Oh, my God. I don't know, but I want the recipe. What does that mean? Basically, you can have it running at like 167 degrees for years,

and you just keep throwing new shit in there as you get it. That's from the medieval time? Yeah. And I was like, oh, that's gnarly. Like several-year-long stew that's just on a consistent boil. It's kind of, is that good? I don't know, it might be delicious. It sounds like diarrhea, but also could be delicious.

So when you're growing up, the church was the backbone of the whole thing. Yeah, that was my lifeline, to be quite honest. That was the place in which I could probably feel my most authentic self. Yeah? Yeah. Because like, look, man, I mean, I've seen you in a lot of things. Oh, thanks. And you're always good, but this beef thing seems to be the deep work, man. I mean, I know it is what it is, but it's pretty great. But Allie, you and Allie are just acting the fuck out of it. Oh,

thank you. I appreciate that. But I mean, you must've felt that just acting the fuck out of it. Oh, thank you. I appreciate that. But, I mean, you must have felt that. I mean, it seems like it was emotionally kind of close to the bone somehow. Yeah, I wouldn't say like it was. I agree. I agree that it would be closer to something that maybe I haven't shown before. Yeah. But it was never because I didn't want to show it. Right.

It was almost because, like, I just never got the opportunity to live from that gaze. Well, yeah, but that's what I mean. I mean, it just seems like this is, you know, you're full in to this. Yeah, there's, like, real things I can pull from here. How did this come about? Were you part of the creation of it?

I was, yes, I was. So Sonny Lee Sung Jin, the creator, he hit, we've been friends for a minute and he hit me up and we just chatted and he was just like, hey, I have this idea for a road racing. I was like, I want to talk about that. Yeah. And we talked about it for like hours that first time he called me. Had he talked to Allie? He hadn't talked to Allie by then. So just you. Yeah. And we talked about it for like hours that first time he called me. Had he talked to Allie? He hadn't talked to Allie by then.

So just you. Yeah. And we were like kind of cooking it up for a year plus. And we threw around names like maybe we could ask Stanley Tucci to be in it. And he could just be like me against Stanley Tucci. And I was like, that'd be sick. Yeah. Love Stanley Tucci.

Yeah. And then I think he spoke with Allie and then brought in Allie. And I was like, oh, shit. Like that could be sick. Yeah. Love Stanley Tucci. Yeah. And then I think you spoke with Allie and then brought in Allie. Yeah. And I was like, oh, shit. Like, that could be crazy. Yeah. And like. Yeah.

And it turned out to be crazy. Crazy. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She's so good. I mean, I know her. Yeah.

And, but I have not seen her act this well either, right? You've got a deeper resume than her, but I've seen her in a few things and she can act but this thing like it seemed that it so much of it character wise speaks directly to the immigrant experience and to a cultural experience that's specifically asian that you know it just adds a whole other depth to it yeah well we're touching to like i know it's interesting because like i don't know how much i like i know we throw around this idea of like specificity is universality yeah and i and i think that's true like i think like chemistry wise like that is correct but i've always had this like difficulty with this with like who's asking yeah like who's asking? Yeah. Like, who's asking for that? Yeah. And it changes the intent and the execution based on who's asking for that.

Yeah. And that sounds usually like the majority asking for like, give me more specific so I can relate to you, which I think is a honest and correct expression to say that. But like sometimes how that's processed and put out is like let me go more detailed into culture yeah when really what we're doing is just doing a lot of the cultural work of like the production design the authenticity of a reality yeah like we're just cooking that into the back into the into the bones of the thing yeah and

then just being humans on top of it yeah like the relational aspect is that like we've passed specificity and we've just gone to this is our life the human right you know what i mean yeah yeah yeah and i think like that phrase is like again like i'm not trying to shit on that phrase it's just like whenever i've heard it i'm like specificity yeah it feels like tell me more and it's like oh like it we it's asking us to tell when we actually shouldn't tell at all no you know what i'm saying yeah so what you're saying is that if you set the the reality of the thing correctly yeah you want to do you don't have to do anything. You just got to live in it. Yeah.

You know, you don't risk becoming, you know, stereotyping yourself for the gaze of the other. Exactly. Right. But if it's a mandate coming down to be like, be more specific, you're going to kind of like be like,

okay, so like get deeper into my kimchi stew. And it's like, no, no, no, no. Like forget about it. Like put it there and leave it on the table in the back of the scene yeah and forget about yeah yeah right well i think that's happening more a hundred percent uh a hundred percent i can't remember what i was what other thing i was watching you know i it i guess what i'm experiencing but i'm obviously a white guy is that there is an integration culturally happening. And that there is sort of people seeing past color lines and ethnic lines and just a general sense of acceptance.

Totally. The gaze itself is expanding. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Reality itself is expanding. Which is so exciting. Yeah, it's great. Super exciting. I just hope it's expanding in reality and not just fiction.

Yeah. It's great. I just hope it's expanding in reality and not just, you know, fiction. Yeah. Well, you know, what gets difficult that I wonder about is, like, as reality expands and, like, these – and we get to moving past cultural touchstones and items for authenticity, what happens to, like, the capitalism around those things? Like, what happens to the people capitalism around those things like what happens to the people that sell those things yeah and in what sense like you can't like if you know if kind of you built something on selling culture yeah um as we get past it and move deeper into a human understanding and relatability between each other as as reality expands, everyone's going to be able to sell that good.

Yeah. And that's going to be a thing that we're going to have to deal with. I don't know how that's going to go. You're saying that the gatekeeping is going to happen. It becomes more competitive. That and like, you know, we'll be able to all kind of like touch each other's culture in a real way like that'd be nice yeah like we're using like honor each other's culture right it's not you know what i mean usually you can just do it through food you know but i think i'm gonna try this well they wouldn't you

know people people sometimes don't love other people cooking their food you know and and selling off yeah and i understand that concept but yeah i don't know where we're, I mean, maybe we're headed in a place where like, it'll just be, you know, like everybody's just dabbling in all the thing. Maybe we'll be, we're getting there. Maybe we're entering into like the best fusion era of all time. Like people just put and throw in everything. That's sort of the progressive idea. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll see if it happens.

We'll see what happens. But in terms of the Christianity aspect, I mean, so you say when you were a kid, it sort of insulated you. I mean, when do you start to kind of realize there's a bigger world out there? I mean, were you playing in the Christian band? Oh, yeah. I was leading it. The rock band. It wasn't a rock band.

It was a weekly praise band that, you know, was just our way to like be musical in it, you know, lead worship. I took it very seriously when I was younger and, you know, I still did it into my twenties. I wasn't not, there's no shame in it for me. You bringing your kids up in it? We're not, we don't go to church. Um, but you know, for me, like I, I still lean into a very spiritual reality. I, I, I don't go to church. No. But, you know, for me, like, I still lean into a very spiritual reality. I don't know if I root myself in, like, dogmatic religion itself. Sure, sure. It's more just, like, I kind of saw what it was trying to say.

Yeah. And I'm kind of living in that space. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Without the community. But I do, but you know what? Nothing beats, and we're all looking for it, the community. Yeah.

You know? Like, unfortunately, sometimes community creates, like, perhaps toxic spaces. Mm-hmm. But, man, it's nice to be around people. I think so. Yeah. I mean, especially in this, it's a very isolating time right now. Yeah, yeah, totally.

But, so what kind of gets you out into the world? I mean, what was the plan? You know, I have to assume it wasn't acting. What do you mean? When I graduated college? Yeah, when you were, where'd you go to college for? I went to Kalamazoo College. In Michigan.

In Michigan. Yeah. And I majored in psychology. And I did acting while I was there. I was in the improv group. Oh, yeah. A couple plays. Yeah.

I really did graduate to be an actor. Did your parents know that? Yeah. Yeah? Yeah. They gave me a couple years. They were like, you can have like two, three years to try. What was the other path?

Doctor, of course. Oh. Yeah. It wasn't even that like those were the only paths. Yeah. It was the only paths that anyone could potentially see. Yeah. I think that's the thing that's like.

You know, out of what they were experiencing. Like that, you know, you're the next generation. Yeah. They don't even know other ways to make money beyond like doctor, lawyer, dentist, businessman. Who, your parents' generation? Yeah. Oh, well, businessman's in there. Yeah.

But what other ways are there to make money? Which is general. I mean, no one believes that anyone can make money acting. Exactly. Exactly. I mean, not even when- Or like playing music or like, yeah, none of that. I mean, you know that getting in, but somehow we delude ourselves.

100%. 100%. But no one of that generation or anyone with any sense is like oh you want to make a good living yeah play music yeah totally but i think like at least if you're like like a like like the white kid who's like growing up with like you know somewhat like more open parents like they definitely know that that's not the path, but there's like visual, you can be like, that's a path. Whereas for me, I was like, that's not even a path.

Like it's just dense forest. You knew that? Yeah, I had no, but coming out of college, John Cho had just kind of really broken through in a way where I was like, oh, he's on a sitcom. He had just done his American Pie stuff. Yeah.

And I was like, oh, shit, like, there's somebody doing it. Yeah. You know? Yeah, making money. Yeah, like being in there. Yeah. And I was like, I can relate to that. And so that was, you know, shout out to Jon Cho, like really held it down amongst a lot of other, you know, great people. But for me, it was like seeing

John Cho. I was like, oh shit, I could do that. Like maybe I could do that. Now, when you were growing up, were you like, how were you listening to Korean music? What were your parents doing at home? Dude, we were not listening to anything. was a silent ass house latchkey style i didn't even have like i was listening to in high school like i get like a bare naked ladies album or like a beastie boys album and just like listen to it on repeat on my iowa yeah you know what i mean like just like sometimes sitting in the back of my parents' store, just like laying on the ground, just like vegging out. On a cassette Walkman kind of? Walkman or like a CD. But I was really, you know,

when I was younger. And they spoke Korean at home? Spoke Korean at home. Yeah, just like, you know, in the car, there was no music playing. We were just dead silent. And was there anyone kind of your parents, were they funny

or animated? Yeah, they were hilarious. My dad's really funny. They weren't cold, unavailable, maybe emotionally unavailable of that whole generation. That's a product of war, I feel like.

Which war are we talking about? Well, Korean War. So the 50s. that's a product of war, I feel like. Yeah. Yeah, you know what I mean? Like how so? Like which war are we talking about? Well, Korean War. Yeah. So the 50s. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, it's gnarly for them. Yeah. And so, you know, they just didn't have... They grew up in that. Yeah, they grew up in that. They grew up with even more emotionally unavailable parents. But it seems like for, you know, from the stories I've heard of people

who have, you know, immigrant parents that, you know, it could have been a lot worse in that, you know, it doesn't sound like they were strict or, you know, willing to, you know, cut you off. Oh, my parents were great. Yeah. Comparatively.

Like I had my friends who were like locked into their path. Yeah. They were like, you're going to do this. Did it work out for many of them? No, they're miserable. Yeah. I feel bad, truly.

I know this one story that was lore in another church, Korean church in my area, where this guy, his dad was so hellbent on him becoming a dentist that he went and got his dental degree became a dentist yeah and then slapped the degree on his dad's desk and then left the family and that was that yeah that was a myth a myth you heard that was a myth but i'm pretty sure it's true why wouldn't it yeah yeah he was just like there go. I gave the thing you wanted. Bye. And he just bounced. Wow. I was like, damn, that's kind of so sad, but like also incredible.

Yeah. How do we make our own way in light of that kind of pressure? Yeah. Because like in the show, in Beef, I mean, those are those kind of parents. Totally. The sort of passive aggressive diminishing with high expectations that you probably could never meet. That show is quite an ending, and it's pretty relentless. Thanks. I take that as a compliment. No, it is. I like the whole thing.

I thought it was cast well and put together well. And, you know, I like all the characters are great. Awesome. And, you know, I just like when everyone's sort of shifting and changing. Yeah. And all characters are growing one way or the other. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the sort of menace of the hilarious cousin character.

What's his name? Oh, Isaac. Yeah. Dave is so great in it. Yeah. Dave Cho is so great in it. Yeah. It's kind of a crazy character.

Everyone's, it's kind of a crazy character. Yeah. Because, you know, there's a niceness to it, to him. Totally. But there's definitely a line. We, yeah, we had a lot of fun. How much of that was written up front? All of it.

Okay. Yeah, that's all Sonny. Now, what do we got to, so he had the whole series. When you guys started shooting, all 10 were written? He was still eking out the last couple, but he had the whole roadmap. It was pretty incredible. Does he have a roadmap for the second season? We don't even know if we're going to do

a second season. That's crazy. And you end like that? That's the fucked up thing about Netflix, is that you've got to kind of end in a way that maybe we'll do another one, or this could be it. I don't know. We really did want to close the loop in season one, in a real way.

That was us, consciously. That wasn't like a Netflix thing. Because it's weird, because I felt it as a closed loop, but in my brain, for some reason, I just assumed, like us consciously. That wasn't like a Netflix. Oh, because it's weird. Cause like, I felt that as a close loop, but in my brain, for some reason, I just assumed like, ah, and now I got to wait a year,

you know, for whatever. That means you like the characters. Yeah. Oh, that's so, you know, so we got to wait a year for,

for whatever's going to happen with these fucking weirdos. Oh yeah. I love it. But there is something, I guess, sweet about the ending. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. That, you know, that's the thing we talked about. Like, I mean, sweet about the ending. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, that's the thing we talked about. Like, I mean, I don't, no spoilers, but like, you know. Yeah, they sent me a letter. I had to sign something. Oh, shit.

Like they're going to shoot me if they did. But if you do it, it's not on me. I'm not spoiling nothing. All right. Just, you know, Spider-Man meme. That's the thing we talked about. Spider-Man's pointing at each other, you know. What-man meme that's the thing we talked about just spider-man's pointing at each other you know what does that mean just you know we're all looking for someone to blame yeah oh yeah yeah yeah yeah we're all looking for someone to blame yeah i and that's true and and the depth

of the resentment is what defines your life. Yes. Yes. That type of envy, you know, that type of envy that like disguises itself as like I'm being wronged here when really maybe it's like I actually wish I was doing that that you have. Right. But also where does that come from? And when you have parents that you can never live up to their expectations or make them happy or proud of you. I think there's that. I also think it's just like capitalism. Yeah, I know.

Like this is not even unique to our experience. I get it. It's just all of us. It never fucking ends. Yeah, all of us are living in constant comparison. It's not even unique to any space. Yeah, but that's an exploited thing. I mean, I get it.

It's one of the seven deadly sins. And I understand that envy is something we humans have to reckon with. Yeah. But it is a choice after a certain point. Totally. You have to judge yourself against others. But then at some point, you've got to go like, but I'm doing all right. Yeah.

I mean, what is it that I need? Well, always, I've always, you hear this a lot, but it's last boss is yourself. Yeah. I don't know if I've ever heard that. You never heard that? The last boss is yourself? Yeah. I like that. Where'd that come from? I don't know if I've ever heard that. You never heard that? The last boss is yourself? Yeah. I like that. Where'd that come from? I don't know. I heard it somewhere. What is that other thing that like stood out to me in the show where you, where you say,

where you talk about Western therapy? Oh, Eastern therapy doesn't work on Eastern minds. That might be true. I don't know if that's true, but that might be true. But I don't have a, what's funny is like, I kind of have an Eastern mind, but I'm pretty sure I have like a very Western mind. Yeah? So therapy works on me. Yeah? Therapy's very helpful for me.

Yeah? Yeah. Well, I like the sentiment of the idea of that, but it's a stubbornness. Totally. It's a weird pride. Anybody who has issues is going to make excuses, and it goes back to that blaming thing again. 100%. Yeah. It's not me. It's that weird pride. Anybody who has issues is going to make excuses,

and it goes back to that blaming thing again. A hundred percent. Yeah. It's not me. It's that. Yeah. But all the characters grow and change. I mean, that is the thing. Yeah.

You know, that scene where your brother jumps the wall, it's crazy. Yeah. Because he... Yeah. Oh, man. And Santino's such a dick. He's like a dick in real life and a dick as an actor.

And I say that with love. Yeah, I love Santino. He's so great. He's very great at playing a dick. Oh, man. He is really such a sweet guy. Yeah, yeah. He's a very nice guy.

But so you finished college. Yeah. And you're going to be an actor with your psychology degree. Yeah. What was the other? Did you minor in something or was it just psychology? I minored in, well, I tried to minor in neuroscience. And I got pretty far, but they needed more credits than I was able to give.

I don't even know what that entails. It was for me just like trying to look smart. What does neuroscience cover? I mean, what's a neuroscience problem? Just like it was all of it, like logic and reasoning. That's exhausting. It would get down to like literal like brain functions and like all that stuff. I was just, you know, I, I, I learned

that college is for learning how to learn. Yeah. Yeah. And taking it and, and also just sort of like getting your bearings. Yeah. And like being around your new friends. Right. So when you were acting in college, what were you doing? I was doing improv with the group called MonkaPult. MonkaPult? Monkaapult monkapult monkapult at kalamazoo kalamazoo college and that was an asian improv group no oh regular yeah there was i was like one of like six asian i guess regular is kind of the wrong way to say it just a yeah it's fucked that's fucked up that's fucked up mark i protest yeah yeah you mean like just a normal bunch of people yeah you mean like real people? Sorry.

But like, yeah, it was the school's improv group. Our school was like 1,500 max. Oh, so everyone knew you. The whole college was very small. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was a very small school. And were you just doing improv games and writing sketches? We were doing improv, doing shows on like biweekly basis. And then I was doing some plays, taking some classes.

You took some acting classes? Uh-huh. Mm-hmm. And it was resonating with you? It was like that was the thing? I think the whole idea of going and experiencing another self, which is college. It's every couple years. Yeah, right?

Every four years, you're like, oh, yeah, I can change this up. You might not even do it on purpose. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're just like, this one's not couple years. Yeah, right? Every four years, you're like, oh, yeah, I can change this up. You might not even do it on purpose. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're just like, this one's not working out. A hundred percent. I'm going to wear this shirt for three months. Yeah, totally, totally. That, I think, was the thing I became maybe not aware of, but I was like, oh, this is interesting.

You just keep changing. Right. And that was fascinating to me and then the acting thing you could change on purpose and also sort of like uh you know i i imagine that when if you really submerge into it you can kind of give yourself a break from yourself oh yeah or the self that you told your right exactly the self that you tell yourself yeah Yeah, yeah, yeah. So through that, did you find a stronger sense of yourself? In general? Yeah, I think through acting

and continually through acting, I have learned that the way in which my brain tries to define me is sometimes, if not most of the time, not actually who I am. Yeah, man, I deal with that shit all the time. I mean, I'm not good at it. No, but some people don't deal with this shit at all.

And we're walking around going, no, no, no, man. They're fucking liars, man. Well, they don't deal with it in the same way. It's not conscious. They may be unhappy or they may know that they're not doing what they want to do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But they'll justify it or just sort of want to do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But they'll justify it or just sort of suck it up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But when you're a creative person,

you can just fucking think about it all day long. Oh, it's the worst. It's the worst. Am I being really me? I don't know if I'm really me. You're like watching yourself watch yourself. It's ridiculous, dude. I think there's just...

I think,'s just, I think, but I've grown to believe that, you know, there are layers to everybody and it really becomes a matter of trust and boundaries. 100%, yeah. And, you know, if you decide, you do have to make decisions depending on what kind of person you are, how stable you are,

whether or not you're going to let other people in. And then, you know, then you really have to kind of, you know, kind of vet those people pretty well after certain experiences, like no more crazy people. I don't want any more crazy people in me. So, you know, it becomes, yourself is pretty expansive is what I'm saying. Absolutely. If not like limitless, maybe.

I don't know. Wow. Perhaps. Well, I mean, you definitely explored all these ideas in the last episode. We went there. You definitely did. We went there, yeah. That was crazy.

Crazy. So, where do you go after college? Chicago, right? I go to Chicago. I cut my teeth at Second City. You do? I.O., yeah. So, you're pretty funny?

I'm all right. Because, I mean, generally you're pretty serious. I know you have comic timing, but a lot of the roles that I've seen, they're pretty, you know, they're not. I wouldn't say they're comedic roles. No, they were not. I was never the guy in an improv group

that was, like, the witty one or, like, the really funny one that just like hit bangers like every two seconds. Who were you working with though? Anybody we know in your crew at Second City? Oh, man. You know, the first class I ever took was with Lamorne Morris. Yeah. And he was great.

He was already off to the races. He was like, I'm moving to LA. I was like, see you later. I was like, I just got here. But like, you know, I played a lot with, I got to do Touring Company. You did? Yeah. So you did the whole thing?

I did the whole thing, yeah. And, like, you know, around that time was like. For IO? For Second City. For Second City. Okay. Around that time it was like Vanessa Bayer. Oh, yeah.

Tim Baltz. Yeah. Tim Robinson, Sam Richardson, Seth Wiper. Tim Robinson. God damn it. That guy. That guy is so fucking funny. He is, man.

Yeah. He's great. Won't come on the show. Can't get him on. I've talked to everybody he knows. Yeah. Won't come on the show. Can't get him on. I've talked to everybody he knows. Yeah. Won't come on. I've talked to him.

That's the real, that's the realest deal right there. That guy. Tim Robinson. Love that guy. So funny. Yeah. He was on a road, he was on touring crew? He was, I think he might've jumped pretty quickly to main stage.

Yeah. Oh, so the touring thing is something you do before main stage? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I went on a boat. I was you did before main stage? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I went on a boat. I was on a boat. I think I talked to someone else who went on a boat.

I've talked to many people who've done different versions of these things. Yeah. I think it could be a really good life if you're into it. I think for me,

it just was not for me. You were on a Second City show on a cruise? Yeah, for two months. Two months? Yeah. Same people? Same people.

On the boat? Different boats. Different people every week, but same crew. Two months? Yeah. Same people? Same people. On the boat? Different boats. Different people every week, but same crew. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, my God. Yeah. It was grading for me at a point where I was like, oh, I want to try to switch up the jokes,

but I can't because it's a whole new batch of people that will like... And you're just kind of running out of stuff because all the suggestions... So you're not really improvising is what you're saying. It turned into that a little bit. Right. Like the suggestions became literally like, because you're hitting the same course. Yeah.

Like you're doing like the Eastern seaboard. Yeah, sure. Like the kind of like the older run of like older people. Yeah. And you're just going to get the same like, you know, same jokes. Yeah.

So why not? Why not just get through it? Yeah. Why not just do it? Like you're on vacation essentially. You're on a to get the same jokes. So why not? Why not just get through it? Yeah. Why not just do it? You're on vacation, essentially. You're on a cruise ship. No one's going to judge you for not doing the real thing. And you're slaying.

You're crushing. No one has to know. No one knows. Just the five of us know. We'll keep the secret. We repeated ourselves over and over again. Truly, truly. So you get off the boat.

When do you start realizing you're going to go serious? How does that happen? Did you take any acting classes during this time? No, I did not. Did you branch away from or get away from Second City and do other stage work? I understudied at Steppenwolf for a run. Really? Yeah, for this play Kafka on the Shore, which is a Murakami play that went up.

Of Steppenwolf folks mean business. Yeah, it was really cool to be in that. Yeah. Watching Fran Guinan. That guy was incredible. Yeah? I don't know that guy. Great.

Yeah, he's one of the company members. He was just so awesome to watch. I know Tracy Letts. Yeah, Tracy Letts. And Michael Shannon, those guys. Oh, those guys? Yeah. I don't know them personally.

I've talked to them, but those are that generation. Then there's the older generation of Steppenwolf people. Yeah. Yeah, they're intense, man. Incredible, incredible. Laurie Metcalf. Yeah. Oh, my God, Laurie Metcalf.

So good. Yeah. So good. So you understudied, but did you get on or you didn't? Never got on. Found out I hate understudying. But shout outs to anyone that does. Like, that is, God bless you.

That is a true thing. Just kind of waiting for someone to drop. Yeah. And also just, like, the fear of it, the anxiety of it. And then also like the quiet envy of it, of being like, I'm putting in work on a daily basis, being on top of this with rehearsals. And I might never be seen. I guess it's just a dues paying thing, huh? Yeah.

It's tough. It's tough. It's really tough. But, you know, I'm sure there's some merits, like some really good things to come out of it. Sure. I mean, it preps your brain. Totally.

Yeah. And you've got to, you know, you've kind of set yourself up. I imagine taking that gig, it's, you know, you sort of have to, you want to get on stage, but you kind of, you don't know what the circumstances are going to be. You also don't. Yeah, exactly. You don't want to. You also don't want to go on stage.

Like, you know, like the star, you know, has an accident. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And now they got, who's this guy? Yeah, 100%. Like, it's like stacked against you. Yeah. And so I was like, oh, man. But all these things were good.

Yeah. But I think for me, my dramatic stuff came when I came over to LA and the choice, you know, I auditioned for this pilot ABC abc sitcom that was gonna go yeah and um i got to like the last audition it was between me and this other guy and i didn't get it and i was like super bummed and then i got walking dead like two months later so it's not that i like chose dramatic roles i actually went for sitcoms but uh the dramatic role found me and I was like, oh, this is actually like freer for me.

Because I think comedy, especially around that time, was like very rigid for someone like me. Yeah. I could play whoever I wanted on stage. I could do a Steve Carell bit

or like a, you know, like a Colbert role like at Second City on like a Monday. Yeah. Home show. Yeah. But if you're coming out in TV, like for Asian dudes, it was like, you want to be a plucky assistant or like a self-aware plucky assistant.

And also it's very, it's limiting in general and there's not that much good comedy. Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. Like, you know, you're, yeah yeah the roles are broad a lot of times and they're hard to make your own and you know a lot of times the shows are terrible or or repetitive at best yeah yeah they're they're just echoing a reality that we can see told from a point of view that is standardized yeah and so for me i me, I was like, at least,

the luckiest thing I feel in the end is that I got to be a part of Walking Dead because- That was huge. And you got huge. And that was not, it was just a person role. It was not an ethnic role. Yeah. Especially because that was a role that was about a world after society had broken down.

Right. Whereas perhaps if society was still alive, I don't know if I would have been able to stretch myself that far that that show allowed me to. Right. Because you would add cultural expectations. Yeah. But now you're just not.

I'm just like, I can be whatever the fuck I want. Yeah, because I'm not a zombie. That's the only context. Exactly. I'm not a zombie. 100%. That's the basis. Yeah, because I'm not a zombie. That's the only context. Exactly. I'm not a zombie. 100%. That's the basis. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

The core of the character is I'm not a zombie. Yeah, it was college all over again. Yeah. But that's freeing to not be a zombie. Are you kidding me? The luckiest gig of all time. Because it's arguable that, you know, in terms of these standardized roles and stereotyping and, you know, perspective, that there's a lot of zombies around.

Ooh. There you go. Perhaps. That's a deep one. But how did that shift your life? I mean, could you handle it? I bugged out for a little bit. I had a lot of, of like acid reflux.

Like what does that mean when you, just because the, because it's pretty overwhelming. It's your second gig. Yeah. And then you become sort of this star of the thing and you're on it forever. Well, yeah, I was, I guess you could argue that. I was, I was, during the course of it, I was kind of like not in the back, but in the middle. Yeah.

Um, there were people kind of in the front that were like objectively like the stars of our show. Sure. And I was in, I was in that group. I wouldn't say I wasn't, but,

um, I think largely there wasn't a space for me to be caught in the industry. There wasn't like, Oh, we know what to do with someone like you. Is that good or bad? Good in the end. Yeah.

Maybe it felt frustrating at the time, but I've been only serviced by that. Yeah. And I guess I assume not unlike your experience with Asians that gave you hope for moving forward in the business that you must have gotten that kind of feedback. I didn't get to really talk to much people. No, but I mean, in general now, like there must be people who saw your success. Yeah. And was like, okay, I hope so. You know, I can do this. Yeah. I don't, I mean like, I don't know if I explicitly heard that consistently or actively, but more like, but like, I hope I did that for people. Like that sounds dope if I did.

How did it, how did that end? Did you want out or was it just time or? It was, yeah, it was, it was written in. Oh, it was? Yeah. You didn't know. They told you what at the beginning of the season? Like.

No, the comic book came out. Issue 100 came out and Glenn died. And I was like. Oh, you got like no the comic book came out issue 100 came out and Glenn died and I was like oh no you gotta honor the comic book yeah so you gotta call that guy what's his name Robert

Robert Kirkman yeah what's up man I actually wrote this like really like you know I wrote a funny but like

very angry email in his letter section on his next issue yeah which he which he published

yeah yeah but it was knew I was doing. Yeah, yeah. But it was fun. I was just like. Yeah, he's a good guy. He's a fan of the show. He's done some artwork for me. Yeah, he's good.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't think I've ever met him in person, but he was a fan of the show. And yeah, he, yeah. He's a good human. He's a kind human. Yeah, it seems like it. I think I did meet him on maybe one of the talking.

I can't. Where did? It doesn't matter. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I couldn't one of the talking. I can't. Where did? It doesn't matter. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I couldn't watch the whole thing. Yeah, yeah. You know, I. It was a lot.

It was a lot. It's not really my bag, but at the time it came out, I was dating a woman who was full zombie freak. So, you know, she would watch it. Yeah, yeah. So, I kind of was able to watch it. Interesting. It seemed pretty good. Yeah.

When Bernthal was on there. Bernthal was great. I mean, our whole cast was incredible that first season cast into the late season cast everybody that came onto the show really great people so when did the movie role start coming?

I just if I have anything I have the greatest luck I'm prepared but I have just like the greatest luck. I'm prepared, but like I have such great luck. I got to work with director Bong Joon-ho. Yeah, yeah. And he just kind of had this role for me.

Yeah. And he fought for me to be there. Yeah. And I was so thankful for that. And then I got to work with Boots. That was the Okja movie? Okja. I had to work with Boots Riley. And he had this role for me. And then I got to work with Boots. That was the Okja movie? Okja. I had to work with Boots Riley. And he had this role for me.

I saw that movie. He's a wild dude. That was a good role. Yeah. That was a wild movie. It was. I was very lucky in that, like, I don't know what I did or how it happened, but there were directors that were, like, looking to work with me. Yeah.

And I was very thankful for that yep that's a weird ass movie which sorry to bother you which one all of them sorry to bother you sorry to bother you is yeah is is is out there but it's also like it's got a lot to say yeah yeah yeah and then when you get to the horse people you're like what the fuck is happening i'm getting to detect a pattern for you which is like i'm in but what the fuck is happening i don't mind it sometimes i need my brain seeks explanation and sometimes you just gotta take it for what it is man it's just it's horses yeah what are you gonna do and then like i mean you've done a a lot of stuff What were the Korean movies you did? I only did one fully Korean movie,

which was called Burning with director Lee Chung-dong. And how was that experience? Incredible. Maybe like one of the best film experiences of my life. And how was it like different than like, you know, I mean, was it kind of exciting to, did you speak Korean, all Korean? Yeah, I spoke Korean the whole time.

That must be wild. Yeah. It was awesome. To go. It was re-downloading. It was maybe a dusting off of a whole side of myself that I hadn't been able to access or was never asked to access here. Wow. So that must have helped with the integration of self. Yes. A million percent. Yeah. I came back very different after that experience. Yeah. Yeah. I came back, little bit more aware of myself and you know in Korean the

word for confidence is 자신감 and I remember asking my friend I was like what is confidence mean in Korean? He's like 자신감 and I was like no no like what is the word the etymology yeah right and apparently they don't really do that in korea like if you want to get to the etymology you used to go to you go to like the chinese character yeah um that it's rooted in yeah but when you look at jajin jajin means self yeah calm means sense and i was like there you go like yeah there you go and I was like, shit. There you go. And I was kind of like feeling that. I was like, oh, I'm becoming integrated with myself.

Like I'm beginning to understand. And then you shoot Minari, which completely requires that of you. 100%. I could never have shot that film. I could have never have approached that role if I hadn't done Burning. Wild. Wild. How shit works out. Oh, you want to know even more wild? What? I could never have shot that film. I could have never have approached that role if I hadn't done Burning. Hadn't done Burning, yeah.

Wild. Wild. How shit works out. Oh, you want to know even more wild? What? Burning is based off of a Haruki Murakami short story called Barn Burning, which is kind of based off of a William Faulkner short story called Barn Burning. Yeah. And the William Faulkner short story, Barn Burning,

is about a father who drags his family through his pride. Yeah. Like, he's a farmhand that, like, sets fire to his owner's farm bar, his barn, because he felt jilted. Yeah. And, like, his son rats him out to the police because he's just like, I'm so tired of you and your pride.

Yeah. Dragging our family through all these terrible things. And that's kind of what, for me, my role in Minari was about. Of just like a father just trying to make it, but like being like unable to face himself. Yeah. And I was like, what the fuck is happening? It's all looping together. Yeah.

That seems to, honestly for me that's like a kind of how do you pronounce this thing minari minari yeah yeah and uh wild yeah i mean so so there's a there's sort of a uh you're on a kind of um serendipitous mystical trajectory i don't try to i mean yeah i, you know, I'll bother my wife about it. Yeah. Isn't this weird? But like,

and I said it now, but I try not to question it too much. I feel like it's going to go away. Yeah. Well, I mean,

you know, you've got a role going. And you got nominated for an Oscar at the Weird Oscars. Yeah, those were cool.

Those Oscars were crazy. It was wild, man. I remember interpreting it, you know, talking to my producer about it, that it did have a vibe of sort of an industry-centric award ceremony. Yeah. As opposed to a spectacle.

Yeah. It was sort of like, well, this is for us. It was so chill. Yeah. Yeah. It was so relaxed and like. It was a little weird on camera, the way people were sitting so far away from each other. But aside from that, I kind of like the vibe.

Yeah. It looked like, oh, there's like 12 people there. Yeah. We're just like, hey, we're just hanging out, right? Like, it's cool. Like, there's no, you know, just chilling. No spectacle. No spectacle.

Was that disappointing? No, I feel so thankful for that, personally. Yeah. Yeah. And how did it feel to be the first Asian to ever be nominated? I have to assume when that happens for any person from any group, there's a fairly deep anger in the realization of it on some level. I think that's the conflicting aspect of it, right? It's just like it's asking by all angles to be celebrated you're right but you're kind of like

why is this even happening right and so i kind of you know like i don't know if i piss people off but like i really try not to put too much attention on that like not as even like a self-preserving reaction to it, but more just like, this is not the goal, y'all. This is just like a byproduct of what is... Wrong. Yeah, we're just expanding here. I'm not trying to... None of us should die on this hill.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. This is not a hill to die on. Right. This is just a hill to die on. Right. This is just a hole that got dug. Yeah. And someone fell in. Yeah. And they might not be able to get out.

Yeah. And I refused to jump into that hole. Yeah. Huh. But it was, but even since then, I really like, I don't know, maybe I no longer know if I'm completely, you know completely looped in to the culture. But as I talk to people and as I see things, like we said before, it does feel like there is something flattening the playing field happening. Like that what we're talking about is happening.

That people are just people. I hope so. I hope so. I mean, like, you know well we can we can revert very quickly well i mean but there's a whole side of the country that you know refuses to see that and i and i've talked about it on stage a little bit in terms of like we're doing a good job at being inclusive in fictional modes yeah yeah yeah so you know how that plays out i think yeah and it depends on execution right, nobody likes to be talked down to.

Yeah. You know what I mean? Sure. I think that's some of the issues sometimes of, like, how the point gets missed. Oh, you mean in terms of how the other, the angry people react? Yeah.

But aren't they going to feel like they're always being condescended to just by the existence of others? That's perhaps true, but I think, like, there's this thing of like there's a vibe yeah you know what i mean like you can detect vibe people people are aware of feeling like yeah um there's this great ursula k legeen quote that you know sunny and i talked about a lot when we

were talking about beef which is like to oppose something is to maintain it and i think about that a lot huh you know i i don't know how true or how impossible situations can be around that to make that a very difficult phrase to process. But like, I can understand that. Like you, and that's kind of what beef is touching too, is like you push and like you're made alive by that push and the other person is made alive by that push. And the other person is made alive by that push. And then they push back. And then, and somehow you're just like both making this thing together that maybe you're not intending to,

or, or you are in chaos that affects the lives of everyone. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It could go either way. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Um, what about the humans? I didn't see it, but I saw the show, the play. Oh, cool. How did you go about, because Karim, Stephen Karim, the guy who wrote it,

directed the movie too, right? Yeah, yeah, he did such a good job. Did you do the play? I did not do the play. Interesting. Yeah, the play was actually, the role was for an Arab actor, yeah. But then what's cool about this,

that play that he wrote is that, like, it kind of keeps growing. Like, you can kind of, like, reflect

other reality, like, other moments in reality off of it. Yeah. And I think Steven decided to cast me in this particular role,

which I was like, that's interesting. I gotta watch it. Yeah, please. I'm curious about it. And so now Beef is it, are you working on a movie? You got stuff coming out?

Am I? It looks like you got a lot of stuff coming out. I'm blessed right now. Yeah. I'm working. I'm trying to take as much of a break as I can. I got two little kiddos. Oh, good.

So. Yeah. Well, I, you know, in terms of beef, which we didn't, you know, we talked about in an engaging and vague way.

The perfect way. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I couldn't stop watching it. Thanks. So, like, you know, I did,

I didn't have to watch all of them. I appreciate it. Thanks, Mark. But I did because, well, I find that, you know, there is an element of, you know, what we were talking about before in that when you create a reality that characters who are culturally different are comfortable in, you know, I get to be included in that in a way that doesn't feel, you know, like we were talking about before.

Like, there was none of that, you know, over, there was nothing broad about it. But it was not my life. Yeah. And so I was completely compelled by that aspect. Yeah. And then the characters just kind of take it away after that, once that gets weighed in.

Yeah. But it did feel like, you know, being part of something unique. Yeah. To me, anyway. Oh, yeah. I think we all felt that. I think while we were there, we're like, man, I can't believe, like, we're getting to make this.

Yeah. It's the same with, like, in a way, like, I was, you know, honored to be part of an episode of Reservation Dogs last season. Yeah. Where it's just sort of like. Oh, yeah. And I show is great. Yeah. Because like, it's a whole culture that,

you know, no one knows anything about. Yep. In the mainstream. And they're not like gatekeeping it. They're just like, you're all allowed in. You can all watch.

And it's kind of messy. And you know, we've got it. There's a whole different sense of humor. There's a whole different spirituality. There's a whole different way of life that we're just going to present as is and enjoy if you want. Yep, yep, yep. So a lot of that's happening.

It's the kindest way to operate. It's great. Yeah. It was a great set to be on. But anyways, I hope it does good. Thanks. But are they open to doing another season or you guys really see this as it? I mean, what's his name, Sonny?

Yeah, we're all open. That'd be cool, but we'll see. I don't know. But he's thinking about it. I would be lying if I said he probably hasn't thought about it. Right, right, right. But none of us have really talked about that happening yet. Okay.

Good talking to you, man. Thank you. Yeah, I appreciate it. All right. All episodes of Beef are streaming on Netflix. That was an interesting talk about a lot of stuff. I enjoyed it. Hang out for a minute, people.

It's a night for the whole family. a part of kids night when the toronto rock take on the colorado mammoth at a special 5 p.m start time on saturday march 9th at first ontario center in hamilton the first 5 000 fans in attendance will get a dan dawson bobblehead courtesy of backley construction punch your ticket to kids night on saturday march 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. Discover the timeless elegance of cozy where furniture meets innovation. Designed in Canada, the sofa collections are not just elegant, they're modular, designed to adapt and evolve with your life. Reconfigure them anytime for a fresh look or a new space. Experience the cozy difference with furniture that grows with you,

delivered to your door quickly and for free. Assembly is a breeze, setting you up for years of comfort and style. Don't break the bank. Cozy's Direct2 model ensures that quality and value go hand in hand. Transform your living space today with Cozy. Visit cozy.ca, that's C-O-Z-E-Y, and start customizing your furniture. Z-E-Y and start customizing your furniture. Folks, if you want to dip into the archives and hear my talk with Ali Wong, that's a really great conversation. It's episode 704 and it remains the only episode where lactation occurred during the interview. See, this is leaning in. Breastfeeding in an interview with Marc Maron.

Jesus. But do you have an electric thing or is it all, is this just what the pump is? There's an electric thing and I have a hand pump for when I'm in the car and I'm driving and I just got a release too. Yeah. Pump and drive. Can you pull over? They actually make it for driving or you just use it that way? Well, I got to go some places sometimes and I can't be late, you know?

So it's like I got to just do this. Yeah. Do you want me to walk you through this? Sure. Yeah. You don't have to try to talk about. Yeah. Do you want me to walk you through this? Sure. Yeah, you don't have to try to talk about something else. Okay. You can walk you through this. So I have to wear this bra.

Right. See, that has holes in it. Yeah. For these little funnel cups to go through. Okay, yeah. And so. My mom didn't breastfeed. It was not fashionable. My mom didn't breastfeed. It was not fashionable.

My mom didn't either. Yeah. It was like. Yeah. Okay. Then I have to see. Take this off here. Yeah.

Take the regular bra. Take the regular bra. But that's a nursing bra because it's like pull, pull. So then I can just have easy access to the baby. Oh, I get it. I get it. And then I have to wear these. So you switch them out. Switch them out. I have to wear these pads in here. So you don't leak? So then I can just have easy access to the baby. Oh, I get it. I get it. So you switch them out.

Switch them out. I have to wear these pads in here. So you don't leak? So that I don't leak all over in public. Then I have to put on this bra. This is what women have to do at work. Yeah. When they go back to work.

Yeah. Up to sometimes like two years. Really? Yeah. Just every three hours. And then a lot of women freak out about their milk production going down. So you can't see it up close. But when it starts coming out.

I could stand up. Yeah. When you'll see. It's like when it comes out of my nipples. It's quite exciting. It's like the Bellagio fountain. Just different streams of liquid jumping up and over each other. Yeah.

See? Can you hear it? Yeah, you can hear it. Oh. Well, sorry, WTF listeners. Yeah. How long do you pump for? 10 to 15 minutes.

Okay. Yeah. That's exciting. Yeah. When's it going to happen? It's happening. It's coming down. I think you just can't see it right now hold on oh yeah yeah so does it like like does it pick up speed um or is that it yeah it picks up speed it's called a letdown. Yeah. That's when like, and I can feel it. Like it'll like tingle and then it'll like gush out. No way.

Yeah. Really? Yeah. But you can't. Oh yeah. Yeah. I see how it's like coming more frequently now. Oh my God.

Yeah. Isn't that crazy? My body's a food factory. Oh my God. Yeah. I've never seen it before. Yeah. It's a first.

Yeah. It's dedication, man. Yeah. Again, that's episode 704, and it's available right now on whatever podcast app you're using. If you want to get access to all episodes ad-free, sign up for WTF Plus. Just go to the link in the episode description

or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF Plus. Alex Borstein is on Thursday for a talk that initially had to happen inside my house because of a power outage, but we figured it out. Are you rolling and tumbling? I do occasionally. Thank you. Thank you. guitar solo Thank you. Thank you. BOOMER LIVES! Boomer lives. Monkey. La Fonda. Cat angels everywhere.