WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1428 - Lily Rabe

Episode Date: April 20, 2023

As the daughter of Jill Clayburgh and playwright David Rabe, Lily Rabe felt a lot of pressure not to become an actor, believing she had to stake out her own artistic ground. But while dance was her passion, her acting talents were undeniable. Lily tells Marc what it was like to get her big break doing Shakespeare with Al Pacino at the same time her family was dealing with personal tragedy. They also talk about her recent string of miniseries, including The Undoing, The Underground Railroad, and Love & Death. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Be honest. When was the last time you thought about your current business insurance policy? If your existing business insurance policy is renewing on autopilot each year without checking out Zensurance, you're probably spending more than you need. That's why you need to switch to low-cost coverage from Zensurance before your policy renews this year. Zensurance does all the heavy lifting to find a policy, covering only what you need, and policies start at only $19 per month. So if your policy is renewing soon, go to Zensurance and fill out a quote. Zensurance, mind your business.

Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global bestselling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series, streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply.

Lock the gates! all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening where are we at what is going on i gotta say it's been pleasant it's been pleasant here the's been pleasant here. The weather's been nice. I've had a little downtime this week, which was much needed. I was burning out. I was frying. I was tired of hearing myself talk. Or to put it in a more clearer way, sometimes I talk when I don't really want to talk. And that's not that often, but it happens. But I talk when I don't really want to talk and that's not that often, but it happens, but I feel like I have to talk. So I just keep talking and it's not great. It doesn't land. It kind of just, uh, I don't know what it is. It doesn't happen very often, but it was happening.

Brendan noticed it. And I was like, yeah, I'm talking. Cause I don't, I don't really want to talk. I'm just fishing around out loud. And he said, it sounds like you're stabbing jello. fishing around out loud. And he said, it sounds like you're stabbing jello. I don't even know what that means, but it sounds correct. It sounds like what was happening, but I've had a few days and, uh, and it really is about engagement. What are you engaged in? And I was just talking too much and not engaging in enough. And then feeling like, like, I got to talk about stuff, even if I'm not engaged. But if you listen to the new bonus stuff, like if, if Brendan and I get going, like we just talked about a couple of Sopranos episodes and I was all lit up. I was talking about canned heat on there too. And I got all lit up. I mean, I just have to go to where the

heat is, go to where the juice is. I got to keep busy. I got to keep busy to get engaged with the juice. I got to talk to you about something. I can't just read the news and talk to you about that shit. That's fucking crazy because then I'm just a reactor. I'm just a puppet. I'm a puppet of my, my, uh, my panic feed. And I just, uh, I panicked and I just, uh, I share the panic with you and I'm tired of that. I get tired of it. So I gotta, I just, I panicked and I just, I share the panic with you. And I'm tired of that. I get tired of it. So I got to keep doing things.

And also, like, I've been a little hard on myself lately. A little bit hard on myself. Let's pull back a second. Can we? Today on the show, I'm going to talk to Lily Rabe. And she's a great actress. You might know her from American Horror Story. But I saw her in the Underground Railroad and the Tender Bar.

So we booked her because of that stuff. Then we had to reschedule like three times because we both were getting sick at different times. And we were finally able to make it happen with this episode because she's promoting this new HBO Max miniseries, Love and Death, with Elizabeth Olsen and Jesse Plemons, and the guy from who played the kid in Almost Famous, who I knew when he was a kid briefly on set. But it's a great miniseries she's a great actress and her dad is fucking david rabe the great playwright david rabe i mean i did a monologue for an acting class from the basic training of pavlo hummel and there are parts of it that are dirty and brutal and unforgettable he wrote hurley burley he wrote uh streamers in the boom boom room these were biggies

this this is some no fucking around playwriting and she grew up in that so I'm gonna talk to her about that but she is a force of nature on her own a really uh great actress and I was happy to finally get to talk to her so you you will experience that soon. It's going to happen soon. I did just repost an episode with comedian Daryl Lennox. It was actually behind the paywall. There's not as many behind the paywall as there used to be. But this one was from 2013. Daryl died on Sunday.

And it's quite a harrowing tale He had lost his eyesight for the most part His upbringing was It would have been devastating for most people But he transcended It's a good episode And rest in peace Daryl Lennox

That said I am I am not at peace I guess eventually I will be. I'm kind of at peace, but I'm trying to get stuff in my head. I got to get in the right frame of mind, put stuff in my head. But I've been hard on myself lately because I'm afraid I'm getting old. I'm not afraid I am.

I am. I worry about my memory because my dad's got the problem. He's got the curse, whatever. He's got the dementia. So I'm starting to freak out about that. So I lay in bed just trying to remember things. For some reason, I was a little hazy on Kobe Bryant's face last night so I had to like pull that up it's like it was almost odd because I was almost getting like those pictures that you get

when you do a search on the AI where you tell you know where you just want when you like it was kind of it was almost him but it was a little twisted looked kind of like a Francis Bacon painting. I'm not a basketball fan, so it's not like I had him. Because we had just, we had seen Air and Kit and I. And I liked the movie. I know nothing about basketball, but you don't need to for that movie. I like seeing those guys work. I like seeing Ben. I like seeing Matt.

I like seeing, you know, what's his name? See, this is what's happening. This is what's happening. Jason Bateman, right? Come on. But I liked the movie and I thought it was good. They really loaded it up with those songs from that time. And it was kind of funny because they really,

they got whatever they could get in pristine condition from 1984 that you could either snack on or have on your desk. They made sure they got a close-up of it. And usually that stuff is kind of annoying, but it wasn't campy. I think there was almost a, I think they were happy they were able to polish up some of that equipment and those snacks and those boxes and things or recreate them to get them correct. And it's important, man. It's important to get time periods correct. And they nailed it. And I was alive during that time.

I was old. I was just out of high school a couple of years. But they weren't being campy about it, but they were sort of like, huh, remember? And the monologue that Bateman has about listening to Bruce Springsteen's Born in the USA was tremendous. There's a lot of great parts in it. The story is great. I didn't know the story. And I was laying in bed with Kit and we were talking about Michael Jordan and about, you know, how big people get and how you got to be careful. And then I made a comment about helicopters and she goes, oh, honey, that was Kobe Bryant.

I'm like, oh, I know that. Oh my God. I'm old. I know Kobe Bryant died in that plane, but for some reason I got them conflated. Michael Jordan's alive. Kobe Bryant's dead. And then I just sat there trying to remember

Kobe Bryant's face for five minutes. I got it. I pulled it together. But I just don't, here's what I got to remember Kobe Bryant's face for five minutes. I got it. I pulled it together. But I just don't... Here's what I got to remember. I got to remember that you can't forget what you never knew. I put pressure on myself.

We're all tapped into this same kind of active zeitgeist in our palm. And I have a sense of a lot of things. I don't know specifics about a lot of things., look, man, I, you know, I, you know, I know Hitler was bad, but I don't have dates. I don't got dates. I have a general sense of his resume. You know, a lot of it was horrendous, obviously, but, but the same with American history. I mean, there's a lot of stuff that I never knew. I was not a great student through high school. And I just didn't take it in until later, some of it.

But I don't have it in my brain to forget the big moments of global history or of American history. I know them. I know they happened. Like, you know, World War II was terrible. And there was a lot of countries involved, Pearl Harbor, Holocaust, you know, the Battle of the Bulge. You know, I get it, but I don't necessarily have them contextualized in any other way other than World War II and the Jews got fucked. So you can't forget what you didn't know. And I've really got to remember that.

I was never great with keeping dates in my head or trivia per se. I know some things. And I have a good memory for faces, not for names. That was why the Kobe thing kind of bothered me. So now all day long, I've been just sort of kind of manifesting Kobe Bryant in my head to make sure my brain is working properly. There's not a ton of shit that I've locked onto in my life that have some sort of historical context. Like, I know things.

I know roughly where things happen. But that's sort of like I'm a speculative historian. And I'll throw dates out there sometimes. Was that around 1933 or around there? Yeah, but a speculative historian. And I'll throw dates out there sometimes. Was that around 1933? Around there? Yeah, but in a general sense, I got a vibe. I got a vibe for history. I got a feeling that it was around this time that this happened.

It's just the way my brain works. It's not great. It's not great. I'm telling you. I go to the Museum of Contemporary Art here in Los Angeles because I knew that this Henry Taylor exhibit was there and I knew that I like Henry Taylor's work. And I drove down there and I drove around the block for 15, 20 minutes to try to find a metered space until I was like, dude, the museum's free. Just go park in the

fucking lot. And it's right down there by City Hall hall so i parked in one of the lots that's you know city hall a lot and i just remember parking at the city hall a lot when i was going through my divorce and i had oh my god when i got the restraining order it was not great this is just a feeling i looked at the cars around me and i'm like most of these people are having a very hard day in the courthouse there's no good day in the courthouse. There's no good day in the courthouse. Is there? I guess there is. I guess there's two sides, literally, in most courthouse business.

Someone's having a good time. Maybe the guy who owns this horrible truck is really getting a payday in there. Maybe the Subaru owner is getting hurt or his time with his kids limited. I'm going to see art. So I parked there in the lot. I went and saw the Henry Taylor exhibition called The B-Side. It was truly one of the best art exhibitions I've ever seen. What an amazing painter. The power, the balls of his painting, bold the colors, figurative, but pushing the edge and loaded up. There's an installation there, uh,

of the black Panthers based on the black Panthers. That is spectacular. And all the paintings, every fucking one of them, powerful, beautifully executed. You got to really take them in. I can't talk art talk,

but it deals with politics. It deals with race, deals with love, deals with pain and portraiture, deals with moments out in the, in downtown, the downtown fixture apparently. But I, you know, I bought the catalog. I buy a lot of the catalogs. I'm going to do some reading in there. I want some new stuff. I want to know how other artists look at the world. I mean, I do that a lot here, but you know, sometimes I need to check in with the visual artists and this thing was just beyond anything I could have expected. Really spectacular. Um, okay. So Lily Rabe is in this new mini series, Love and death premieres next week on hbo max i thought it was terrific it's uh premieres on thursday april 27th it's about that candy

montgomery story about the murder in texas they did another one i think there was one on Hulu with, why do I always forget her name? Jessica Biel. But this one's, I didn't see that one, but this one's spectacular. The acting's tremendous. So, all right, let's talk to Lily Rabe. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats, get almost, almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region.

See app for details. Are you self-employed? Don't think you need business insurance? Think again. Business insurance from Zensurance is a no-brainer for every business owner because it provides peace of mind. A lot can go wrong. A fire, cyber attack,

stolen equipment, or an unhappy customer suing you. That's why you need insurance. Don't let the I'm too small for this mindset hold you back from protecting yourself. Zensurance provides customized business insurance policies starting at just $19 per month. Visit Zensurance today to get a free quote. Zensurance. Mind your business. So I noticed that the other day, though, we were talking about the smell of books. I think it's actually rotting paper. It's so nice. Yeah, I know. I love it. They're all up in my office upstairs. Your dad's room of books has to be massive. Well, this was, the hit I got was,

it was like when I, the house that I grew up in from sort of like age three to seventh grade. Yeah. Where was that? It was in Westchester. It was in Mount Kisco, New York. Mount Kisco?

Yeah. I had a girlfriend from that area. My first girlfriend from Mount Kisco-ish. Yeah. Well, it was, but what's the next town over? Bedford. Oh, no. Chappaqua. Chappaqua. That's it. Chappaqua. Yeah.

Fancy. Yeah. Yeah. So that house. Yeah, that house, it was like the garage was his office. Really? Yeah. David Ray had to have a garage office?

He loves a garage office. He didn't want it. And then he's still got a garage office. Not in the house? No. He doesn't like the house? No. Oh, okay.

But, like, a big thing was, like, you know, going over and saying, like, Dad, it's dinner. Yeah, yeah. And, like, hoping, you know. Yeah, yeah. He's a wonder. But, like. Yeah. You weren't bothering him?

Yeah, like I don't want to... In the middle of the big writing? But then the smell of like those, I guess, rotting books. It's a very, but it's like a wonderful... It is. It's like a library almost. Memory, and I feel,

it makes me feel very cozy. Yeah? So like what else, did you have just a bunch of books in there? Did you have records? What kind of, like, what do you, it seems like you grew up with a playwright as a dad and one of the great actresses as a mother in Westchester? Well, I mean, I hate to say that.

That was sort of like, it feels like we were sort of passing through. I was born on the Upper West Side. And then I guess my mom, when my brother was born. How old's that guy? He's three years younger than me. Okay. So I was three. And she had like, or, you know, this is, so I'm told she had a sort of panic.

Yeah. About needing space. Yeah. And like, can we do this in the city? And so they moved to Westchester. And then I think the whole time she was there, she was kind of like, this feels like totally in between. Like I either want to go back to the city or I want to go deeper to the country. Yeah.

And then eventually we went deeper to the country. Where? Lakeville, Connecticut. Huh. Which is where my dad still is. What's that near? It's the northwest corner of Connecticut. It's near the border of New York and Massachusetts.

So it's like right there. It's right next to- Is it by West Adams? No. Oh. Right, West Adams, Mass, right? Yeah. It's like 40 minutes from Great Barrington,

five minutes from Millerton. Okay. Two minutes from Salisbury. Any of these places? Anyway. Well, I mean, like, oddly, I think I probably did comedy gigs up there in Salisbury. Or Great Barrington, probably. Probably. I just know there were one-nighters all over New England that I had to drive to.

Nice. And some of the towns I remember, some I don't. Yeah. Some were closer to Boston. But that's far from Boston. Yeah, it's close. It's like a two-hour train ride from New York. So it's really up there. It's up there. Yeah, it's like country. Yeah, it's close. It's like a two-hour train ride from New York. So it's really up there.

It's up there. Yeah, it's a country. Yeah, it's beautiful. But can you live in the country? Do you live in the country? Well, no, now I live in Los Feliz. This is where you are permanently? Yeah.

No more New York? Oh, don't say it. I mean, I still have this. I still have a tiny little place in New York that I hold on to that my family cannot fit into now. What are you doing? Just renting it out? No, I don't even. But it's pretty new, though, right, to be here.

I mean, you haven't been out that long, right? It is. I mean, if I'm truthful, it's sort of – it was another thing that kind of like it crept up. I was out here shooting and I was going back and forth, but I was still doing plays. And then, but it's been, I've lived in the house out here that I live in now like six years. Really? Yeah. It's weird because like, I mean, I see you in all these different things and then I look at all the things you've done and I just don't manage my time well. and then I look at all the things you've done and I just don't manage my time well. Neither do I.

What are you talking about? You do a million things. I don't manage my time well, though. But you're busy. Yeah. You make time for work, clearly. Like, do you never stop working? Thanks.

Is that good? I love to work. Yeah. I love to work, but I love to not work. But when was the last time you didn't work, though? Ten years ago? No, I feel like, well, I had all these, I was like pregnant back to back three times, but I did, I worked through most of my pregnancies.

You did? You were, but you were pregnant on what? Oh, gosh. A lot, like some sort of, like obviously pregnant and then some not. But I shot, when I was pregnant with my first kid, I shot an American Horror Story season. And then I, I can't keep up. Did they just work it in? Well, some of them we didn't have to, like I hid it.

Yeah. And then there was one season where it was like. Of American Horror Story. Of American Horror Story where I was very pregnant when Ryan called. And I was like, I'm going to be so pregnant. Yeah. And he's like, oh, great. I'll write it in.

Yeah. And then I was also doing Underground Railroad. And Barry thought about writing it in, too. Didn't end up. Because, you know, I was like in a corset. But then COVID happened. So by the time we were actually shooting the season of Horror Story, I'd had the baby,

but the baby had become like a very important plot point. So then I spent the whole season in a prosthetic belly. Oh, really? Sort of like honoring the pregnancy. A fake? You had to be fake pregnant? I had to be fake pregnant, yeah. Wow. Well, I mean, I watched the entire season of Love and Death.

Oh, you did? I did. More than me. Really? I mean, they've sent it to me, but I'm very weird about watching stuff. You are? Yeah, super weird. Are you?

What happens? I used to be. I'm less. Yes. Like it just, if something's still being edited, like watching something during ADR or if you're coming, you know, depending on whatever you're, I love that. I see bits and pieces in ADR and you're like, you're usually, it's like two or three minutes. I got some pretty good. Yeah.

Or like seeing a rough cut. I'm like, yes, yes, yes. But, you know, there's just something about like when it's the final thing that even if I, I don't know, it just always feels like a loss to me in some way. Well, I can see that. Sure. Well, it kind of is, right? Yeah. I mean, you're not living it, but, you know, there's some, I guess there's some part of you where it's still moving, you know, or something.

And then it's over. Yeah. It's like the great – I mean, and maybe the reason I hate that so much or that it makes me so sad is because I started in the theater where I never had to deal with that. I mean, you'd end the run and then I would cry for like – Did you? Oh, yeah. I really would weep at the end of every run. Well, I mean, theater is such a – like, it's – I mean, it's kind of the same. Like, I don't have any really – I don't have any experience in grown-up theater. But I have limited experience on sets.

But the one thing I knew even in college about theater is that, you know, you really are, you know, part of a community. And it seems that depending where you are with theater, you can have the postpartum depression of show ending. But everyone's still kind of around. Where, you know, where you do a movie or a TV show, like, everyone goes, right? Unless you're on a series. And then it's just sort of like, all right, we were really close for a few months. I know.

But theater, they're all around. They're all around, but while you're doing it, you just get to go and go and go again, again, again. Yeah, yeah. So you don't have to give it away until you're really giving it away and it's over. But, like, you just – I love and I miss that feeling of when you go home with all that self-loathing and, like, oh, I wish I – you're like, oh, I'll just try it tomorrow. do you find like is

and also I guess the the this sort of depth of self-discovery when you do a play over and over again it can be pretty

pretty expansive right I mean you can just make changes or tweak things over and over again and the audience is like this

you know it's like this living sure organism yeah but not but because they inform so much they just do uh and it is so wild how it's like they become this singular thing yeah like you really are like show you mean yeah

it's like this audience yeah you can feel it but they're like one thing yeah uh when you're in a play though can you feel pockets where it's sort of like, that's not a great song? Occasionally, there's like... Stage right, not great. Yeah, like, whatever. They're not getting it up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally. But in general, they do kind of become this

like, wonderful amoeba or something. No, they have their own personality. Yeah. Sometimes in a stand-up show, I mean, I can tell before I get out there, you know, what's going on, kind of the vibe of it and where the problems are. I'm not always correct. Or like where you get your first, I mean, well, oh my God, stand-up, I can't even imagine, but like because it's not this.

But you have like a set, so you have certain, because oftentimes if there's like a set so you have certain yeah because oftentimes most of the time if there's like a you know yeah a joke that's not a there will just become little things where you're like oh it's gonna i i if we have them here sure or like oh no we didn't get them there so we're gonna right well yeah like you kind of know like oh that one didn't yeah This is going to be a job. Yeah. It's not going to be fun. Yeah. So your mother, Jill Kloberg, is like, it seems to have a place in my memory as a child because of the movie Semi-Tough, I think. Oh, my God. Right? Amazing.

It's like her and Burt Reynolds. Was that like Chris Christopherson? Burt Convey and your mom. It was kind of this football comedy. Yeah. But then she was in, I feel like she was in so many movies during that era, right? What was that, the mid to late 70s? I mean, I wasn't alive, but that's what they tell me.

They tell me she was a big star. She's a big star. You know, like my mom liked her. You know, like she was like one of the stars, the lady movie stars. And she was in Silver Streak. Yes. Were you alive then? No, I don't think so.

With Gene Wilder and Richard Pryor? I don't think I was alive, but I don't think so. But it was like one of the first ones I was able to watch because it's like kind of PG, you know? Yeah. But have you watched, have you gone back and watched her shit? A lot of it. You have? Yeah, a lot of it.

See, I don't know how you would have to right yeah and then did you like did you start out did you feel pressure to act no to not act i felt pressure to not act from from them or from you both and what your dad writes he's fucking heavy plays like i think i did a monologue from streamers in college. That's some heavy shit. Totally. Yeah, I think I was like three or something in the aisles. Because he directed a production of Hurley Burley in L.A.

I saw that on Broadway, I think. That Mike Nichols directed. Right, with William Hurt. and was it William Hurt? Harvey Keitel. Yes, and like then, and Mera Winningham. With Sean Penn in it. And Madonna at some point. Sean Penn and Cynthia Nixon did that amazing thing where she was doing.

Oh, right. And she was like a kid, right? Yeah, and she was like, walk, it's so romantic. She was like, doing Hurley Burleyly and then walking to do her scene in the real thing and then like somehow making it to both yeah curtain calls yeah which is why when anyone's like we it's a conflict we can't work it out i'm like let me tell you a story you can if you want me you can work it out yeah so. So you remember seeing Hurley Burley, not Streamers? I didn't see the one.

No. But I was like, I think I was three. I think I was just in the aisles of rehearsal. I have a memory of sitting next to my dad. And he's like a big guy. And I was little, little. And then it's just like these, everyone just, yeah, on stage. Was it magical? Fuck, fuck everyone just, yeah, on stage, like. Was it magical?

Fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck. You just, oh, you heard where the fuck's. I don't know what it was. It was like, it was actually, it felt normal. Yeah. Like, I was just like, oh, yeah. This is my family. Yeah, this is my family.

But did you, as you got older, even now, have, I mean, he wrote three Vietnam, post-Vietnam novel or plays. What was his experience there? Have you talked to him about that? Yeah, more and more. Yeah? Is he, was it hardcore? Well, he was in, he was, spent a lot of time in an office.

Okay. Spent a lot of time in an office. Okay. And I think working in the hospital office. And then he was also a guard. Yeah. So could have been a lot more hardcore, but also was very hardcore. Yeah. Well, I mean, he was there, right?

Yeah. And your mom passed away a while back? Yeah, 2010. But she was sort of, you know, she was like this, she was like the planet we were all orbiting around. Yeah. What happened? Did she get sick?

Yeah. So sad. And did you, what made you, how, what were you going to do if it wasn't acting? What was the plan? Well, I wanted to, for a while, I wanted to be a ballerina. Really? Uh-huh.

That seems like a crazy, insane, hard life. Pretty short career, too. Yeah. Was it, did you lock into that? I loved it. I did it. I really, I started like little, little. Probably around the same time I was going to Hurley Burley.

Yeah. With my dad at three, I started doing ballet and I loved it. I loved the discipline of it. It was totally self-motivated. Like my mother would take me to the ballet. To see it. To New York City Ballet. We had like season whatever

and we would drive into the city and sit in the same seats. And I was like from a very young age just sort of transfixed. Yeah. And I loved it. And then I wanted to do it and I did it

and I was incredibly motivated. Did you go to school for it? No. So then like, I mean, I was, I did it through, I quit somewhere in high school because it was, it just became too, you know, you get to that moment where it's like you're either doing this or you're not. Well, it's also one of those things where the, there's like a genetic component almost. Yeah.

Like, it's like tennis playing. My brother worked his ass off. Yeah. But at some point it's like, you don't, it's like, you don't have the natural ability. I had a lot of the things. Like, I have, like, I'm hyper-extended this. And you're tall. And I'm tall.

And, like, my feet, there's something. I could dance on a lot of my toes because I don't have, like, you know. So I had a lot of that stuff. Oh, good. But it was, I also wanted to go to college and be a person. And I would have now, I mean, I don't think, it's not like I would have been a star, but I think I could have like danced, but I would have, anyway. Explain to me though, will you? Because like, it's one of these things where I don't have any context or appreciation for dance.

I mean, I can watch it and be entertained, I guess. Yeah. But modern dance, I can kind of see. Yeah. But not unlike other ancient traditions or at least classical art. Yeah. There's a structure to it and everything, right? Yeah.

And there's a way to understand ballet. Yeah. Do's a structure to it and everything, right? Yeah. And there's a way to understand ballet. Yeah. Do you have that? I do. It moves me so much. But it's funny, like Hamish,

because he'll sort of walk in sometimes. Yeah, we're not married, but yeah, sure. Whatever he is, yeah. The father of your children and your partner. Yeah, my daughter,

the other day I was like, because sometimes I'll just say husband because it's like easier for other people. I don't know where we are. We're at like a hotel or something. I was like, oh, my daughter, the other day I was like, because sometimes I'll just say husband because it's like easier for other people. Yeah. I don't know where we are. We're at like a hotel or something. I was like, oh, my husband is getting that and my daughter looks up at me and goes, who's that?

What's the aversion to being married? Or where does that come in after, what, you have three kids? I have three, we have three kids together and then I have a stepdaughter. Okay. Yeah. And you're just sort of like, let's not rush into anything? No, well now I'm, no, yeah, like exactly.

Let's just take this one thing at a, one step at a time. The ballet, what I was going to say is that my boyfriend, baby daddy, whatever, when he, he'll sometimes come in and I'll be like, you know, he's like, what are you doing on your phone? Cause I'll like jump and sort of put my phone away. I'm just like watching ballet. Really? As like, what are you doing on your phone? Because I'll like jump and sort of put my phone away. I'm just like watching ballet. Really? Mm-hmm.

As to make you feel better? Yeah. Huh. It's just the grace of it? Or the, you know. Something more. Yeah, it's magic? It's magic to me, yeah.

And with whole ballets, well, a lot of them have stories, right? Yeah, but it's not that. It's like something, like the aesthetic. It's probably like watching great athletes or whatever. You know, he cries all the time watching sports. So why can't I? I don't have that. I'll cry watching most things.

You do? Yeah. But I don't have any sports in me. But like I get very moved. You know what's interesting? I used to. No, I don't have any sports in me. But like I get very moved. You know what's interesting? I used to. Yeah.

And after I had my first kid. Yeah. I find that I cry less. Really? Yeah. It's not. What do you think? What do you make of that?

Have your first kid, you cry less. Maybe it's less about you. Maybe the crying. Maybe your feelings or your emotions are so now connected to something, you know, that you care for. You can't even understand the depth of the love you have and the emotional connection you have to a kid. I think crying when you're alone without children is sort of this weird, selfish thing. It's a way to feel. I think you're right. But I actually, you're alone without children is part of this weird selfish thing it's a way to feel i think you're right but i actually you're the first person i i i i hadn't i hadn't totally understood it and i thought oh is this like some survival you know just some hormonal i'm

because i remember being pregnant and watching some great movies and i wasn't crying but i was moved but i was like what is it bro like, what is it, bro? Like, what's, what's gone on? Have I closed up? Is my heart closed up? But I feel sort of the opposite about everything. Like, I feel like my heart is opening up, but I think you're exactly right. Yeah. It's, uh, crying alone is a selfish activity, right? So like now it's like, you know, you don't, you're feeling, you know, you know, I think that your emotions are going the proper place in a way, you know, because they're with the kid or the kids. That's really nice. Huh.

I'm going to say that I think you're right. Yeah. I do. Now you got to ask your partner why he cries during sports. He's so selfish. You and your crying at sports. How do you cry at sports? Oh, God.

I mean, when Derek Jeter was retiring, like that year of retirement. Oh, really? It was just like. He went into mourning? There's a lot of tissue boxes around the house. Wow. Oh, I love that. So you're into the ballet.

Yeah. And that's a thing. And your parents, obviously, I I would assume given their pedigree are supportive of the arts yeah but I mean I was pretty young when that stopped and then I was like

I loved writing in high school yeah and what do you think like what'd you write like I just I don't know what it's like

to grow up with parents who are in the arts and the pressure of that or the non-pressure of that I don't know what it's like to grow up with parents who are in the arts. And then. And the pressure of that or the non-pressure of that. Right. I don't understand it. Like, because, like playwriting, for instance. It's like, it's insane.

Playwriting. Totally. Like, and you do a lot of theater. Like, you read plays, you're like, where the fuck does this come from? Yeah. You know, because all different language of things. Yeah, yeah. And especially, like, some of your dad's plays are,

there's a lot of depth and weirdness to them. Yeah, and it is like its own language. Yeah. Totally. So I just like, you know, living in that house, like I don't know, like what were you writing? Do you tell, do you like? I never have written a play or even attempted to write a play.

No, no, no. I just loved writing short stories in school. So I kind of, when I stopped dancing, I thought like, no, no. I just loved writing short stories in school. So I kind of, when I stopped dancing, I thought like, okay, maybe this is what I'll do. Yeah. But then I really missed performing, being on stage. Yeah. Which is probably the thing I had loved so much about dance. Right.

Look at me. Initially. Yeah. Or just like that, look at me, but not me. Right. Like this way to. It's coming through you. Yeah. Do something else. Express yourself not me. Right. Like this way to... It's coming through you. Yeah.

Do something else. Express yourself. Yeah. Yeah. And sort of disappear into something and all that stuff. You did? With ballet? You disappeared into it?

I did feel that way with ballet. Because it's not about you, but it's like all of you. Yeah. So then I like started, you know, auditioning for like the high school plays where i was teaching ballet in the summer and where uh in where i in connecticut yeah in that tiny town um and they had like the older kids had a summer thing and like oh do you want to do you want to do like a monologue in the anyway so. So then I – but I don't think – What do you mean, like at a camp?

Yeah, like a summer camp. Like I hadn't really done theater. Yeah, right. But I think – I don't know. If I talk about it honestly, I don't think it's like – and then I discovered it. I think I was stalling because I was so terrified. And I felt a lot of shame around it for some reason. Really?

Like shame in doing what my parents did or feeling like I was just... But by the time you're in high school, by the time you're having these feelings, I mean, you've seen your mom on stage many times. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Wow. So was it shame or was it just like,

I don't know if I can be that good? They're so good. No. No? You felt, I'm just trying to identify the shame. Or just like. Like, am I going to be one of those people that does what my parents do? Right, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Wanting to feel like whatever I was doing was earned and was my own path. Right. Well, you were young enough for that to happen. Yeah. Wanting to feel like whatever I was doing was earned and was my own path. Right. Well, you're young enough for that to happen. Yeah. Huh. But you felt that even then. I felt that even then. And then I also had, you know, like they had, as all artists do, they're like, it's the best and it's the worst.

Right. Don't do this. It's hell. Don't do this. It's hell. Even though I'm watching my parents, like, love what they do. And it's clearly the only thing they could be doing. But, like, they hate it. But they love it. And they've been doing it forever. And they've been doing it forever. What about the rejection element? Did you get that lecture? About auditioning and all the practicalities?

But also I saw it. Like, they were getting rejected all the time. Yeah. You know, even in their success, it was like so, it's a tough time. It's a tough choice. You know, when you look at people like, like your case is, I think, manageable. When you look at someone like Jacob Dillon, you know, making that decision, like, I'm going to be a singer-songwriter. I'm like, what?

Holy shit. What? What a thing to put on yourself. Holy shit. And you're never like, I'm definitely going to run into people who have no idea. Yeah, right. I mean, I didn't realize that your dad wrote the screenplay for The Firm, which is really the best Grisham movie. He did write that.

It's a great movie. I watch it a lot. I think Sidney Pollack even directed it, if I'm not mistaken. I can't remember. He wrote that movie. That's crazy. But was he the only writer on it? No, there's never... Right, I feel like there was a... There's always a few.

Yeah, yeah. So you decide to take the plunge in acting. How do you train? How do you get into it? Yeah, so then I was like all in. Really? And I went to Northwestern. That's a good, for undergrad? For undergrad.

They have like a good program, right? Yeah, at the time, I don't know if it's changed, but like at the time they don't have a grad program. But I think I remember hearing it was a really good undergrad program. So that's why it's so great for the undergrads because you're not competing. Like you do everything. You don't have to deal with the snotty grad students. There's's why it's so great for the undergrads because you're not competing. Like you do everything. You don't have to deal with the snotty grad students. There's no, like you're getting all the good parts. Yeah, yeah.

There is, it's, and it's like an, it was sort of like a conservatory within a liberal arts. Yeah. It was the only one that had a structure like that where I felt like. Huge school. Huge school. Yeah, yeah. Big 10. Yeah.

Chicago? Yeah. Yes. So were you going out and seeing things? that where I felt like huge school huge school yeah yeah big tent yeah Chicago yeah yes so were you uh going out and seeing things did you go to Steppenwolf did you go yeah I was also like going to frat parties football games but then as I got yeah I got my shit together and I would go to Steppenwolf did you go to any comedy any second city and shit like that I did go to a little yeah yeah there is all that great comedy there all the improv stuff yes yeah and there were great I would go to Steppenwolf. Did you go to any comedy, any Second City and shit like that? I did go to a little. Yeah, yeah, yeah. There is all that great comedy there. All the improv stuff.

Yes. Yeah. And there were great, I mean, I would have never dared, but I had friends who did, I think it was called Meow. It was like the improv group. In school. In school. And they were amazing.

Yeah. Yeah. But you never did that stuff? No. Hmm. Why? Why do you say it like that? You don't think you're funny?

I am funny, actually. Can you tell? It's my secret superpower. I can feel it. No, I am funny. In Love and Death, you were hysterical. That's a comedic part of it. I would love to do comedy, but that's different than stand-up or improv.

Have you done much film comedy? No, because everyone thinks I'm too serious. It's so frustrating. Really? I think because I did Shakespeare, but I'm like, no one's funnier than fucking Shakespeare. Yeah, true. Like when he's funny, it's the funniest. That's weird.

So you feel like you're typecast in a way? I just feel like. Also, you know, they don't make many comedies, really. There's not that much funny. No, that's true. And it does. It is like this. There's like.

A crew. A crew. Yeah. But in the theater, I was doing. I was doing comedy. Yeah, of course. That's where it happens. Right.

And even in the drama. That's like that thing where I'm like, it's a drama. It's comedy. I'm like, what are you talking about? It's both all the time. I mean, that's where it happens. Right. And even in the drama, that's like that thing where I'm like, is it drama? Is it comedy? I'm like, what are you talking about? It's both all the time. I mean, so, but yeah, I do think there's like, it's annoying. I feel like people, I don't know, there's some feeling of seriousness. Maybe it's like my deep voice or like I.

But like, if you really think about it, I bet you like if you told your agent, look, man, go find me one. I mean, they really don't shoot that many. Like if you like and most of them are terrible. Do you know what I mean? To find like a good. I remember what I was crying about. Ray Romano directed and wrote his first feature. And I watched it somewhere in Queens, I think it's called.

And it's a very personal story. I sat there and watched it with my girlfriend who apparently I didn't quite realize it has a heart of stone. Or maybe it's something else. No, I don't know. Maybe she's just not selfish like you, crying. Yeah, maybe. Or maybe she has a healthy emotional spectrum and she's able to emote properly and not bottle it all up. Most of my crying at commercials and movies is really just because I'm locking it down.

Right. And I'm looking for a release of some kind. Right. It does feel good. Yeah. But I don't know why I'm so wary of it. But it happened today. I read an email from somebody and it got me all fucking choked up.

It was good. And I had that realization, I think. I notice it today more than ever, like, oh, this is the problem. I'm not doing this enough. What was the email? Well, I'm a sober guy, you know, and sometimes I talk about sobriety. And occasionally I'll get emails from people that say, like, you really helped me sort of, you know, make the move to do that. helped me sort of, you know, make the move to do that. You know, and there's something about the language of sobriety that always gets me when people, you know, make that choice. And he told

me, you know, that like he went to his first meeting and, you know, he gets it and it just got me choked up. That seems appropriate. Yeah. Yeah. It's wild. Yeah. I got to figure out a way to get it all out. Yeah. You've got kids and that's not going to happen for me. I don't know how people do that. It's good. I'm selfish and panicky. Don't you panic all the time? You know, I do, but not about them.

Oh, really? What do you panic about? Everything else. You think they're just going to be okay. I do. That's good. That's good. That's healthy. I do. When I picture having children, like I picture leaving the house and even if they're well taken care of, just being like, what's going on with them? Are they going to climb up on the thing?

Are you keeping them away from the thing? That's what I picture every minute being. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of things that they climb up on and sometimes they fall off. But yeah, no, I have like a nice, I mean, I think it's because of, it's my mother just gave me some, like peaceful. I'm able to have a lot of peace around parenting. Yeah.

That's good. So she was very grounded? Yeah. Both of them or? Yeah. Yes. That's unique in the arts was very grounded? Yeah. Both of them? Yeah. Yes. That's unique in the arts, I think. I know.

Yes. But my mother particularly, and she did a ton of work. She did not have a childhood that was peaceful at all. And it was like a ton of conscious work. So by the time you were around. Yeah. It all paid off. Yeah.

That's good. I mean, I think so. I can report that. Yeah. Yes. So when do you start acting for real? For real, for real? Yeah.

I think I got my equity card like in college doing summer stock, summer plays. And then. That's how you get it? You get cast in summer stock? That's how you get the equity card? I don't know. I think that's how I got mine. Yeah.

And then I start, I just after college, I moved to New York. Yeah. And I started auditioning for plays. But like, was it like, you know, everywhere you went, you're like, oh, you're Jill's daughter. I mean. Of course. Yeah, of course. There's like a little bit of that thing.

I did like, there was something called, which I think has changed. There was something called New Leagues at Northwestern where it was like 10 musical theater, 10. Did you do a lot of musicals? No, no. I was in the non-musical. I'd love to do a musical and a comedy. I'd like to do a musical comedy. It seems like this is available to you.

Like, I feel like you can do it. I think, like, the more we talk about it, you'll get a call. Okay, great. The more we talk about it, you'll get a call. Okay, great. But anyway, it was like they had 10 from the, I don't know, what is it, regular theater? Yeah, yeah. Non-singing, non-musical theater.

Yeah. And then you go to New York and you do a showcase and try to get an agent and a manager and things like that. And a bunch of cast and directors are there. So we did that. And then, yeah, I moved to New York. I was like nannying. I didn't wait tables.

I was a nanny. Huh. That seems a little more consuming than waiting tables. Yeah. Well, I think I would have, I don't know that I would have been any good at. Waiting tables? Yeah, I drop. Like I just drop stuff.

You're a dropper? I'm a dropper, yeah. Kids? You drop your kids? No. Good. No. But, like, don't ask me to pass you, you know, a pen or something.

But nannying, that's, like, all day. You get attached. Yeah, and it was, like, two. I, like, fell into this nannying niche because I was babysitting. I was babysitting for one set of twins. And then, I don't know, the twins' parents, they're like, oh, well, we have this. So then I was sitting for two sets of twins. How are you rehearsing?

How do you do acting? No, then, well, I didn't have a job. I was just auditioning. Okay. And then when I got a job, I stopped. Yeah, stopped with the kids. What was the first job? when I got a job I stopped

yeah stopped with the kids what was the first job my first job was Steel Magnolia's was that a big

big cast on Broadway yeah um like who you working with Delta Burke oh wow Franny Sternhagen

what happened to that lady I haven't heard Delta Burke's name in a long time yeah actually that's true huh who else she was so much fun.

Yeah. Christine Ebersole. Yeah. Brandi Sternhagen. Marsha Mason. Wow. Rebecca Gayheart. I think that's everybody.

And you were what, 20? Yeah, 21. So that's big. But, you know, I remember with that job, I auditioned first for, I can't remember. I think I auditioned first for the Shelby, for the, you know the movie? It's like Julia Roberts and then there's the Daryl Hannah part. Yeah, yeah. And I had auditioned for Shelby, which is the part that Rebecca Gayhart ended up playing.

And they were like, no, I can't remember what the reasoning was. Like maybe I was too young. Yeah. Or something. I mean, you never know if you're going to be true. But then I was like, but the part I want to play is Anel, which is the Daryl Hannah part. And they were like, no, you're like an ingenue.

Like you can't play. I was like, let me at it. And I remember like, I was like, how do I, I guess I have to look kind of like quirky mom. Like what should, she was like tied like a, I was like on my way out the door and she like tied like a handkerchief around my neck or something. Anyway, I got that part. You didn't get the part you wanted? I got the part I wanted, but they didn't want to see me for it. They really didn't want to say, I really had to beg or have my agent beg and be like, she can be, you know.

Weird. Weird, yeah. Little did they know. So, but so do you, did you. And funny. It's funny too. You don't have to get mad. Okay, sorry.

You've never said I'm not funny. I believe you're funny. You don't have to sell me on it. I'm completely convinced. So did you, were you able to, I think you did work with your mother, right? Yeah. On stage? Yeah, I wish we'd done more of it.

I was, I was a, I was a wimp. I mean, and I also, you know, there was something I was supposed to do with my dads. And then I actually couldn't do it because the play that I was doing, like, extended or the dates shifted. I mean, there was a legitimate reason that I couldn't do it i what play of your dad's could possibly it was a part it was called an early history of fire okay um which was like a play he'd written when he was very young and then they did a production of it yeah uh but anyway so i didn't do that and then um but there's like this there's this movie that he wrote for my mom that never got made

that he gave me when she died yeah sort of just to you know he was like I don't know if but now I'm like

the right age to play the part and so what's the movie? it's called We're Just Married yeah yeah

and you doing it? I don't know. I mean, do you want to finance it? Hold on. Let me see what I got. How much do you need? You know, it's hard to get these. That's what I hear.

I'm trying to get involved with doing that myself, with making a movie. Yeah. And I've talked to a lot of people who make movies, and I've never, I'm a more immediate gratification kind of person when I hear these people talking about, it took us five years. I'm like, I'm out. Five years to make something that might come out good and most likely will not be seen by most people. Right, even if it is really good.

Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Holy shit. I know. Torture. Life's too short. Yes, it really is. Right?

But then it's also like it's just too short because I just, there's so much to do. Yeah. Yeah, I know. Is there? Like what? I know there's a lot to do. But like today, like all I'm thinking is like, I gotta get some walnuts. That's what you're thinking right now?

That's how well this is going? No, no. I mean like when. I just got to get some walnuts. That's the thing right now. That's how well this is going. No, no. I mean like when. I just want to get some walnuts. No. When I think of things, all the things I want to do. Right. That's at the top of the list. But that's great.

I think that's healthy. Yeah? Yeah. Keep it small? Both. Yeah. Like you are. Yeah.

I want to get some walnuts and I'd like to win an Oscar. Great. But I think when you're fucked is when you stop thinking about the walnuts. Or you have someone else do it. I mean, that's the other thing. People are like, why don't you get an assistant? I'm like, what would I do with my life? You understand?

I like going to three supermarkets in one day. I love it. I don't. But I imagine with free time up. But I don't know. Whatever. Like, because I'm primarily alone in my life, the free time thing doesn't always pan out great. You know?

Because then there's a lot of that time of sort of like, I should be doing this. What should I be doing? But I have, even though I'm not, I'm very much not alone. There are just so many people. Yeah, around. Big and small around me all the time. I still. Kind of do that? Yeah. There are just so many people big and small around me all the time. I still – Can't do that?

Yeah. We'll have moments of, wow, I've really been staring at the wall for 45 minutes. I was going to watch Heaven's Gate the other night, and I don't have time in my life to do this. Right. Even though I know it's not as bad as they say, it's still three and a half hours of Chris Christopherson, which is not terrible. No. But, you know, it's a lot of time. Yeah.

I know. So when did you get – the big break for you was like Shakespeare, right? Really? Still waiting for it. What are you talking about? Didn't you like – weren't you with Pacino and it got – like that was like, oh, my God. Yeah. That was like like, that was like, oh my God.

Yeah, that was like a, that was a. Was that Merchant of Venice? That was Merchant of Venice. I did, yes. Where the fuck did you learn how to do Shakespeare? It's a great question. Yeah. It's a great question. I was doing, so that after Steel Magnolias, I did like another play off Broadway.

And then I got cast, auditioned and got cast in this Shaw play called Heartbreak House that was also on Broadway. This is coming back around to Shakespeare. Okay. Dan Sullivan, who directs, is the great director, he saw that production, and he told me that he cast me as Portia then, like in that moment. Right. But I don't know how many years it was. Like a few years later, he was doing Merchant with Al. In the park?

In the park. Yeah. And I was, I think I had just done like some teeny tiny movie in the wilderness where I was like, where I was doing my own hair and makeup and costumes and continuity. It was called In the Wilderness? No, it was called. Literally In the Wilderness. We literally were shooting In the Wilderness. It was called Letters from the Big Man.

Yeah. Just an indie? Yeah, by this guy Christopher Munchunch it was about bigfoot oh anyway what made you choose to do that it was interesting he was interesting okay um he got you anyway he sold you on the big so on the big yeah listen and i also uh i like to do my own stunts, so I know I get to go out in the... Yeah. So I was sitting in my car in my rental in Laurel Canyon, or outside my rental. I got this call like, oh, you've been offered Porsche in the Merchant of Venice.

And I was like, to audition? No. And they were like, no, no, no, just... You got it. You got it. So then I did that in the park. Yeah. And then.

Was it great? I mean, it was the, listen, my mom was dying during that. So it's all. Tied up with trauma. It's a lot. And, you know, Al and my mom had been together in their 20s. Really? Yeah.

Yeah. So, oh, my God. It was like a huge kind of, it was very profound worlds colliding. Yeah. Thing. And Shakespeare's at the core of it. And Shakespeare's at the core of it. And I do think Shakespeare and Hamish was in it.

And we weren't dating or anything, but, like, that's where I got to know Hamish. It was a lot happening. Emotionally. At once. and Hamish was in it and we weren't dating or anything, but like that's where I got to know Hamish. Really? It was a lot happening. Emotionally? At once. Was Al checking in and like, what was his? I didn't tell Al that my mom was sick.

Oh. And I told Dan when we, because we, so we did. Yeah. Yeah. So we did the we, so we did. Yeah. Yeah. So we did the production, like, in the park. It did really well.

And there was rumblings of, like, is this going to move to Broadway? But we ended the run. Those runs are very short. Yeah. In July. And, like, she, there was something, there was, a, it's actually called a transformation. It was a kind of transformation in her illness. It's like the actual name of what happened. What illness?

CLL, which is chronic lymphatic leukemia. Oh, my God. But then there's this thing called a Richter's transformation that can happen to a very small percentage of people. So that, she, that happened like right as we were closing the play in the in the park and it was just like a nosedive like it was so um her health yeah yeah and i didn't really know if i could do the but she said i had to she was like you have to do because she had seen me seven times in the park yeah uh so then i did it we we transferred to to broadway i still hadn't i did tell dan because i was like you've got to get me a great understudy yeah because i know you

know i never miss a show but like yeah i don't know i don't i don't i don't know what's happening get me a really great understudy that makes everybody very happy yeah i don't know i don't i don't know what's happening get me a really great understudy that makes everybody very happy yeah yeah so i would i would basically go from in in rehearsals in during previews yeah i would go from the hospital like sleep on the floor go to rehearsal yeah do the show yeah and then and then and then she died we got well we went home she died and then i um was everyone around so i missed a week i missed the it was like there was this funny moment there was this thing that happened with a nurse yeah and i just like looked into this nurse's eyes that i've i've sort of left my body as I'm

talking about this. Yeah. Am I still making any sense? Yeah. Um. Why? Just because of the sadness? Yeah.

Yeah. Uh, but I looked into her eyes and I, I just knew something was, it was just like a moment of eye contact with this woman. That you knew what? That, that was it? I knew she was going to die for the first time. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

And that was a Friday. And because, you know, they don't, it's like her doctor had been her doctor for so long. He loved her so much he wouldn't say time. Yeah. And you're like, I've never watched. I don't know what the fuck I'm looking at. This is so, like, what is happening? Someone tell me what's happening. Yeah. And you're like, I've never watched. I don't know what the fuck I'm looking at. This is so like, what is happening? Yeah.

Someone tell me what's happening. Yeah. And anyway, we got her home on Thursday. She died on Friday. I did the show on Saturday. Oh, my God. And then we opened on Sunday. So that was a show on Saturday. Oh, my God. And then we opened on Sunday. So that was a preview on Saturday.

They pushed opening. Yeah. And then we opened that Sunday. Did you find that it helped you get out of yourself or was it a struggle? It was like the only thing I could do. Right. And there was like something. I remember being really upset.

Well, I mean, everything was like, but there was something like, Lily Rabe leaves the show for a week to grieve the death of her. And I was like, no, no, no. The only shows I missed,

she was alive. I was with her. Once she died, I was on stage. I didn't know where else to go. There was no like, I wasn't going to,

it was the only place for me to go. It was the only thing I could do. And it's the only thing I remember doing. Like, I didn't know where else to go. Yeah. There was no, like, I wasn't gonna, it was the only place for me to go. It was the only thing I could do. And it's the only thing I remember doing. Like, I don't remember anything. I don't remember how I got to the theater. I don't remember who I saw sleeping, eating. I don't remember anything, but I remember doing the play. It was like this

sort of current. Yeah? What, the performance itself? And the play, like, I, it is, it's, had it not been... I don't know, I don't know the, the performance itself? And the play. Like, I, it is, it's, had it not been. I don't know, I don't know the, I don't know the Portia. Oh, well, yeah, she's amazing.

Yeah. I mean, she sort of saved me. Yeah. But Shakespeare, it's Shakespeare. It's like, had it been something else, I don't know that I could have. So you're able to tap into the eternal Shakespeare thing.

Yeah. Or he, whatever that is. Like whatever that sort of lifeline pulse is. Through the centuries. It is an eternal thing. Yeah. And you're just like this umbilical cord is sort of. Yeah.

Huh. And that's where you learned how to do Shakespeare? Yeah. So I didn't really know what the fuck I was doing. Dan says he just knew seeing me in that Shaw play that I could play the part. And I will say that, like, and then I went on to do, like, from Portia. After Portia, I did Rosalind. Then I did Beatrice.

And then I did Imogen, lesser known, but in Cymbeline, one of the great, Imogen's like one of the great parts. Yeah. But I really kind of played like, it was like really a lot of greatest hits. A lot of the great ladies, one after the other. And I, I don't know, it just felt, it just made, that language just makes a kind of sense to me that like talking doesn't. Well, I mean, it also must have informed like your, it must've been like an acting school. I mean, to, in a sense, to do all the varieties of Shakespearean women has got to, you know, expand your capacity.

And it does. And it does. Yeah. And that's the thing like that. And that's why Al, who was playing Shylock, he played Shylock and he'll want to play Shylock again, I'm sure. Because you sort of like, all you have to do is lock in, you just say the words. And you lock into something. Yeah, really. That does all of that. And it is this kind of like expansion. And I think it's why you're, you know, like I would love to play all of those parts again.

There aren't a lot of parts I've played where I'm like, I'd love to, you know. Well, you can. Like, you know, many people revisit those parts throughout their lives. And I imagine because of the genius of the language and, you know, the structure of Shakespeare, at every age it reveals something different to you, right?

That's right. I would assume that's the way that works. Because your soul is like you're bringing—when we—Hamish and I did— Well, he's like a Shakespearean guy, right? He is. He's the best. Like, doesn't he literally come from Shakespeare? He comes from, actually, I listened to Sam Rockwell on this, talking about studying

with his mom, with Kristen Linklater, because she did this, she had this whole voice. Yeah. She's a voice teacher? She's a voice, she's,

But she's a Shakespearean person. She was a wonderful voice teacher, yes, and she had this technique called the Linklater technique. Really? But didn't she start some Shakespearean theater company? Oh, well, she lived. She didn't start it, but there was this thing called Shakespeare and Company that he sort of grew up in. That's crazy. Crazy. So he's been doing it since he could speak. That's crazy.

Crazy. So he's been doing it since he could speak. Uh-huh. Anyway, in terms of coming back to the parts, it's like Beatrice and Benedict, we did it when we were on the younger side. And it's like— Before you were partners. No, at that point we were. Oh, okay. But, you know, when he says, like, the world must be peopled. A lot of the time when people play those parts,

it's like, there's no, they're done peopling. Yeah. Like they're in their fifties or sixties. Right. Right. And it was so great to play it like,

oh, they could, they're going to go off and have kids. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But then it also is so great. I have a really hard time with the, with the, Yeah, yeah, yeah. But then it also is so great to watch.

I have a really hard time with the, it's very hard for me to suspend my disbelief around age and parts. I'm finding that with television. But what about with the theater? I don't go in enough theater. Okay, okay. Yeah. Right, we're out here. I know.

But I just, it's not a regular part of my life, and I'm sorry about that. I saw Sam in, what was he just, in American Buffalo? You know, I see that. When I was in New York, I saw more. And I tried to go, huh? We used to go. It was like what we did. We would just go.

We would go to TKTS and like, what are we going to see tonight? It's the greatest thing. I saw some in Ireland. I went to the Abbey Theater in Dublin. Was it great? It's great. You've never been to Ireland? No.

You've got Irish in you. You've got to go. I've got to go. Don't you have Irish in you? You must. Well, I do. I don't know that it's blood, though. It's like my great-grandfather was like an orphan left on a doorstep,

raised then by McCormicks, who were Irish. But I can't say that that baby was Irish. The doorstep baby. The old doorstep baby, yeah. Oh, man. So that that baby was Irish. The doorstep baby. The old doorstep baby, yeah. Oh, man. So that's sort of wild. Because I talk to people about Shakespeare a lot as somebody who doesn't know a lot about Shakespeare. And I've had—I was actually hostile about it.

It's like, I don't know about it. It's overrated. I was that guy for them. Because I can see that once you—if you can walk into the language and surf that thing, you know, the emotional availability to sort of explore is really profound, right? It's profound and it's like bottomless and ceilingless, which is why it's so amazing doing it outside. Yeah. But do you have to yell? I guess they have microphones now, right?

They do. No, you don't. You need to learn the Linklater technique. You don't have to yell. You just support your voice. Okay, so that Sam was talking about her. But you've done Shakespeare with your Shakespearean non-husband partner, father of your kids. Yeah.

So is that like, do you guys talk about Shakespeare? All the time. Really? All the time. You? All the time. You wouldn't believe it. Really? Yeah. Like what kind of conversations?

Do you like about characters and about what it means? Yeah, but it just kind of, it's just always relevant. Like it's just a way, it's like a. So you literally have conversations like news of the day. You're like, well, this is like that play. Sort of. Does that make us sound so. No. Well, that's what's great about Shakespeare. It of the day. You're like, well, this is like that play. Sort of. Does that make us sound so? No.

Well, that's what's great about Shakespeare. It's the truth. It is. It is what's great. And it's like, it's. He can contextualize all human emotions. That's right. And situations.

And politics. And I think both, the generosity of it. Yeah. Of the experience of being in the audience and of doing it is just so profound. It's like – and of playing these parts, it just – I mean, gratitude, it's like the most overused whatever. But you really – Gratitude is not. Storytelling is.

Okay. I won't say storytelling. Gratitude is good. Gratitude is good. Yes. It's not overused. But you just feel like I just feel like those saying those words and surfing it just as you're saying like you. Your soul and your heart is like expanding. And then also they get, it like gets into your cells in a way that I do feel I'm

carrying them around with me. Yeah. But I feel also that way about like Hamlet, who I've never played, but I've, you know. Yeah. But I mean, I have to assume that, you know, once you've had a well of experience with Shakespeare doing a part like – what's her name? Betty? Is that the name of the character in Love and Death? Oh, yeah. Yeah, it is. That it must make room for those kind of – it must make room for all the characters.

I mean even if the language obviously it's not Shakespeare. But I mean it must make your acting deeper if you really get it it is just making it's like it just makes more space yeah yeah because like that character of betty it's it's a complicated character and it's it's uh you know emotionally you know there it her vulnerability is is abrasive right so you, you have initially a hard time empathizing because of, but you see her insecurity so clearly. She's terrified. Yeah, totally. She's terrified.

And, you know, it is so horrible, the whole thing. Her life, her mind is so, you know, difficult. But, like, I don't know how you put together a character like that. Like, I, you know, I don't know that I've ever really seen a character like that. In my recollection, that these miniseries gives you an opportunity to go pretty deep with these things. And you do a lot of them. Thank you. I do, yeah. Is that why?

I love the limited series format. Yeah, because you can go deeper or because you can really have an arc to a character. Yeah. Because it's like, and it is like this wonderful kind of, you get more time than you do in a movie. Yeah. But you're not like signing some six year scary thing. But I would imagine as an actor though, you know, you can like, if it it's well-written, you can see, like, the arc isn't rushed. Exactly.

And, you know, it must be more satisfying as an actor to have good material that's, it's finite, but it's thorough. Movies are short. Totally. Like, even. Not Heaven's Gate. That was really long. No time for that. Yeah.

But, but that. Yeah. But yes. Huh. Because I mean, I saw you in other things. I saw the Underground Railroad. That character is not pleasant in my recollection. No. It's kind of rough. But I loved her.

You did? Barry is such a great character. Oh, yeah. He's amazing. That guy's amazing. The fact that not everyone in the country saw that thing

and processed it was annoying to me. Same. I mean, it's fucking poetry that thing. And it just kind of came and went and I'm like,

how are you all missing this? It was so strange. It's a fucking masterpiece. He's, yes, I agree. You know? I was really like that was a head scratcher.

And it was scary too. Menacing. Like all so scary that people weren't, I was like, why? Because people are babies and they, you know, it's like, it's why Hollywood exists is to create something palatable that's not going to implicate people when they watch it. And I think that the weight of that thing was too much for people. It makes me upset. Sure.

People are terrible. Babies are great. People are terrible. Babies are great. Make sure they don't turn into people. You got to keep them babies their entire life. So, and what about working? I mean, like I was sort of stunned

by all of the acting in this thing. And I don't know if I just haven't been watching enough television or that I'm out of the loop. But lately I've been like, oh my God, people are, I just watched Ali Wong and Steven Ewan, I think you say his name. And I watched all 10 episodes of their thing, this beef thing that's coming out.

And I'm like, oh my God, they're acting the shit out of this. Is everyone just a great actor now? What happened? Have I not been? But like the cast of that thing you're in, Love and Death, it's astounding. Oh, it was a great cast. But I know they did the story on Hulu too, right?

Yeah, they did. I didn't watch that one. I haven't seen it either. I haven't seen this one. I mean, like to- No, but did. I didn't watch that one. I haven't seen it either. I haven't seen this one. I mean, like, to... But Ashley... I saw the first episode. We went to South by

and I watched the first episode. Olsen, like, really makes some choices. Lizzie, yeah. She's great. What's her first name? Lizzie. Elizabeth.

Elizabeth. Why do I keep calling Ashley? Ashley's her sister. God damn it. So, yeah, she's the younger one, right? Elizabeth. Elizabeth is the younger one, right? Elizabeth. Elizabeth is the younger one.

The one that's acting with you. Yes. I keep calling, I'm an idiot. So Elizabeth just acts the fuck out of this. She's great. I mean, it's crazy good. Yeah, and the writing was solid. Yeah, David, he's, because this is the third thing I've done of his.

I did The Undoing. Yeah, that one was, I like that one. Oh, no, this was the second thing I've done. I. I did The Undoing. Yeah, that one was good. I liked that one. Oh, no, this was the second thing I've done. I'm doing the third thing. Yeah, The Undoing and then this and then I'm doing something else right now that he wrote. And his writing is just, like, great. It's great to act.

And there is a generosity in his writing as well. But I think because you said there's this other, you know, I'm interested in there was like the the other version of the show like same source material same story and it's interesting to me that people are like worked up about that or sort of like but it's been back to the no no not that you were saying that, but some people are like, well, didn't they already do that? I'm like, already do it? Like, it's a true story.

Yeah. How great that. Two angles. Two angles. Like when, you know, didn't they already do Hamlet? Like I've seen it, seen it once. It's not, it's what a wonderful thing to like shine a light, shine two lights on this story. Well, it seems like the focus of this one with having not seen the other one.

Yeah. It seems like the focus of this one with having not seen the other one. Yeah. This was an entirely empathetic approach to this story that, you know, there was almost, you know, and he didn't pull any punches around the murder either. But it was all about the humanity of the choices all around. So by the time that happens, it's horrible and it's disturbing and how you feel about Candy Montgomery after the fact that everything that David Kelly put into these characters in making them fully realized, you really have to sort of – there's no set villain. These are people with problems, which is no easy trick in light of an axe murder. That's right.

But I don't know what the other one did. But for that to work, it was all on you guys. You know, for that to work, you know, the scene where, you know, the day of the murder between you and Elizabeth, I mean, I don't know how many times you had to do that. We shot that scene for four days, with a weekend in between.

And I was, like, super pregnant. Before the murder. Leading up to. Yes. So why did it take you so long to shoot it that that sequence yeah it's a pretty complicated i mean it's pretty complicated i it wasn't like we went over like we had all they had that was what the schedule was like we had these okay but lizzie and i were bummed that there was like a weekend in between because it was like we were sort of carrying this thing around and like. Yeah. And sustained.

It was like it's like this sustained. It's like a long sustained note kind of sequence. I don't know where you found that character. Like I can't. You know, the sort of the kind of, you know, brittle insecurity of that character. Thank you. Oh, my God. Like, how do you make those choices?

Like, what was the key in? Listen, she's so, I'm always so interested in when I read something and I'm like, gosh, I really have nothing in common with this person. I'm like, I want to do that. Yeah. in common with this person. I'm like, I want to do that. And I, but I think, you know, her, her fear, she has this just pervasive, she does not feel safe in the world. And it's really interesting because she was, which we, I don't know how much we really

get a sense of that in the show, but like, they're from Kansas. They're not from that town. They're from Kansas. So they're like, they've moved there. They've like transplanted there. They're rural people-ish. water. And in Kansas, she was like the girl. She was like the homecoming. She was like voted most likely to succeed. Everybody talked about her smile. She got a million Valentines. She was like it. And I don't want to diagnose her or anything like that, but I just feel like she's someone who at a certain point, she just needed, and I don't mean medication, she needed some kind of support that she didn't have. Like whether it was just some outlet, something, some way to contextualize the feelings that she was having. She's a human being. Something, you know, sort of changed for her.

And she's fucking terrified of loss. And I think it's like why every time he leaves and even though it's kind of funny that she's in like a a panic when he goes away for for three days or she has an affair at one point because he's on a work trip it's because every time he leaves the door she's in an existential panic that he's not that he's going to cheat on her but that he's going to die and never come back like she's just her fear of loss yes is so tremendous and then she has this feeling that like something isn't right right and she's right yeah so i don't think it's that she has any idea what it is right but she's just like i'm not'm not safe. And that's something that I, that was the way in for me.

And that was something that I could. Yeah. Relate to? Sorry. Feeling like I don't feel safe. Yeah. Why is everyone telling me it's okay? Something's not okay.

Right. You know. Yeah. Yeah. I thought it was great. And what are you, what are you doing now? I'm doing this thing on Presumed Innocent, which is another David Kelly. I'm almost done with that.

And then I'm going to go do a movie, I think, this summer. I just finished editing a movie that I directed with Hamish. You co-directed it with your partner? Yeah. How was that experience? It was a million things, but that part of it was fantastic. I loved directing with him so much. What's up with that movie?

I don't know. What's it called? It's called Downtown Owl. It's an adaptation of this Chuck Klosterman. Do you know Chuck? I feel like you would be a fan. Yeah, we talked years ago. Yeah, what was it like? It's called Downtown Owl. It's an adaptation of this Chuck Klosterman. Do you know Chuck? Yeah. I feel like you would be a fan. Yeah, we talked years ago.

Yeah, what was it like? It was great. You know, he's kind of an acerbic thinker, but a great guy. We talked about music, talked about some books. I like him. Yeah, I always liked that guy. I've talked to him a few times. And he's funny.

He is very funny. But I think he's like a, I think he's got this soft heart. Yeah, for sure. Like he, you know, he's so, yes, so acerbic, so brilliant and has that. Oh, no, definitely. But like his heart is. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, so that's why I loved this book.

Yeah. Yeah. So what's the future of that? I think, you know. You finished editing it, so then you do the festival thing? Yeah, something like that. And then you're gonna do,

now you're doing another movie too? I think I'm gonna go act in a movie that I guess, I don't know, I haven't, I'm like closing my,

Oh, you haven't done the deal yet? We'll see what happens. Is it a good one? It's gonna work out. Yeah, it's,

it's, it's great. It's really lovely actors and director. Good deal. Nice to talk to you. That was so great. It's really lovely actors and director. Good deal. Nice to talk to you. That was so great.

I'm glad we finally did it. I got sick. You got sick twice. It was like I didn't know if it was ever going to happen. I know. But we made it, and it was good. I'm so great. You feel good about it?

I'm so glad. I feel great. It was so nice. You feel good about it? I'm so glad. I feel great. It was so nice. What a lovely, talented person that Lily Rave is. The miniseries Love and Death premieres next week on HBO Max, Thursday, April 27th.

And speaking of HBO, hang out for a minute and I'll tell you what HBO has to do with our latest bonus episode. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under

the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. This week for Full Marin listeners, some Sopranos talk. I talked with Brendan about some of our favorite episodes and why that show is still so satisfying more than 20 years later. But that fight, unlike almost all of them in the series, is human as fuck. It's the greatest. It reminded me of, do you ever see the movie The Treasure of the Sierra Madre?

Yes. Like, there is a bar fight in, like, the first 10 minutes of that movie that is so clumsy and so unlike any other kind of, like, Western bar fight. It always stuck with me. I'm like, yeah, that's what would happen. These guys would fall on the floor as they're trying to take a swing they'd be just scrapping at each other's legs yeah that's this thing is just two out of shape animals trying to

kill each other in a kitchen yeah and and it's clumsy as fuck yeah Yeah. And it's crazy. And you, like, even, I've seen it three times, and you're not sure who's going to win. Ralphie sprays him in the eyes with Raid. And then he got one in with the skillet. He got that knife up. I mean, that was, like, that was on the edge. To get weekly bonus content plus every WTF episode ad-free, sign up for the full Marin by clicking the link in the episode description or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF Plus. Next week, Jay Smith Cameron from Succession is on Monday, and the former showrunner of Veep, David Mandel, is on Thursday to talk

about his new series, White House Plumbers. Okay, here's some big Les Paul custom sound. Some chords that I play a lot differently. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Boomer lives. Monkey and La Fonda. Cat angels everywhere.