WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1429 - J. Smith-Cameron

Episode Date: April 24, 2023

J. Smith-Cameron gets just as surprised while watching Succession as you do. With all the footage they shoot, she’s never sure exactly how any given episode is going to turn out, as she waits to see what will or won’t make the cut. Jean and Marc get into all the details about the show, like how Gerri was supposed to be a man, what her husband Kenneth Lonergan thinks of it, and how her New York theater background meshes nicely with a cast full of stage actors. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated

category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die we control nothing beyond that

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Lock the gates! All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fuck, Knicks? What's happening? How's it going? This is Mark.

It's me, Mark Maron. This is my show. Thanks for joining. Today, on the show, I talk to J. Smith Cameron. Her name is Jean. You guys may know her as Jerry from Succession. She's done a lot of work. She was also in the movies Margaret and You Can Count on Me, directed by her husband, Kenneth Lonergan, who I've talked to, and many other films and TV series and plays. She's great, and I was thrilled to talk to her. Also today, or Sunday, yesterday, I just talked to Rachel Weisz, and that was exciting.

She's great. How long have, like, I mean, she's great. And that was like, I think that was the only person I talked to all day. And I've been, uh, I've had a week of that where, you know, kit works. I go do comedy at at night talk to lipside a few times i don't know man i i just think it's important i i gotta find somebody to to talk to slash bounce shit off of in town go out do the coffee thing crunch the news think about stuff, break new ground, push the envelope, talk about movies. I just watch that thing that Vice is in, that Dead Ringers, and it blew my mind entirely. My mind just getting blown all the time. I don't know if I'm getting old or what, but I'm just sort of like, oh my God, this is insane. Everything's in here. It's radical. I don't know. I'm going soft. Maybe.

I don't know. But listen, a couple of things I left hanging, I believe. So Buster was actually sick and he had a UTI that might have affected his kidneys. He had infection. And I think I told you that they gave me antibiotics to give him by mouth, which is a goddamn charade. Ridiculous. But I brought him in for a shot. And he's doing great.

Seems great. They all seem great. Cats are fine. And in personal news, I started getting there. I went and got my blood test on Friday. This is after three months of pretty strict veganism. I might've ingested partial egg here and there with some bread products that I didn't or wasn't aware of. Three months as a vegan and really limiting to maybe four or five times in that three months my intake of processed sugar. Because as you know, some of you, if you've been following along, that my sugar, my glycemic index is 5.8, which is pre-diabetic.

My LDL before this, before I went vegan, was hovering around, I think, 125 to 127, my LDL. My good cholesterol is good, 70-something, I don't know. So I got blood, and I asked them to give me a testosterone test, too, because I talked to some friend of mine who said I should get that and that's that's my form of referral talk to a guy my age

who someone told to get their thing checked maybe you should get that checked so I got all these blood tests and the results came but the doctor hasn't chimed in yet and here's the thing about the cholesterol after three months vegan 102 and it's supposed to be below 100. So there's nothing I can fucking do. My LDL is 102.

My HDL is 72. Triglycerides 54, non-HDL 113. Total, somehow, 185. Which isn't bad, but there's nothing I can do. I guess you're supposed to, it's just supposed to be around 80. Your cholesterol. So I got to make some choices. My testosterone, 1,027.

Huh. I guess that's high. And for some reason, of course, as a man, I'm like, yeah. Fuck yeah, man. Fuck yes. 1, yes 1027 i'm full of this stuff what does it mean is it good or bad i don't know doctor hasn't weighed in yet so that's the deal so now i imagine he's going to tell me to get back on the statin why not but then the big question is what about about my diet? Do I stay on this thing? I've certainly been having a good time focusing. It's nice to have an ideological eating disorder, gotten some good jokes around it. I believe in my heart that I've probably eaten enough

meat for one lifetime. But do I get back on the statin and do the occasional fishy fish? in my lifetime. But do I get back on the statin and do the occasional fishy fish? What do I do? Do I just stay with it? I feel like people have invested a lot of faith and excitement and belief in me around this vegan thing. People are sending me snacks.

Nothing wrong with that. And I seem to have gotten out of the frame of thinking that I should just do whatever the hell I want because life is short. You know, you got these just people who are barbecue guys, the meat cult. The barbecue cult. Just, you know, obese dudes with beards and aprons slathering sauce onto ribs come on live a little yeah very little much longer at that rate i don't know i don't know what i'm gonna do i'll see what the doc says it it's also my testosterone is flagged i don't know what having a slightly

high testosterone means anyways. Anyway, so it's all unfolding. Blood pressure's good. Heart rate's good. Everything's okay. And I got some texts from some guy, not a text, a direct message about how cholesterol doesn't matter. But I asked my doctor again, is it still an indicator or has it no bearing on heart health and he looked at me like i was a fucking moron like a fucking moron that's how he looked at me he's like yeah it is an indicator and i'm like oh because some guy DM me that I don't know on Instagram about how it doesn't matter. All right, so I guess he's wrong then? The guy on Instagram who you don't know, who DM'd you,

that said cholesterol's not an... No, no. Yeah, I would go with whatever he says. Go with whatever that guy says. I've been invited over to somebody's house for dinner, Kit and myself, and I bought a full tray, a $35 tray,

which is not nothing when you're buying baklava. Yeah, I figured, like, why not bring a nice local treat over? That would be a nice thing to do. And it's basically, you know, it's like 10 to 12 different kinds of the same thing. Yeah. Slight variation on what the dough is doing texturally and which nut is being used. But outside of that, kind of thematic.

All right, look. So Succession is currently in its fourth and final season. New episodes are on Sunday nights. You can stream the whole series up to this point on HBO Max. And Jay Smith Cameron, who is my guest today, plays Jerry. Her name is Jean, not the initial J. And we had a lovely conversation that you can be part of right now. It's hockey season, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats.

Well, almost, almost anything. So, no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice? Yes, we deliver those. Goaltenders, no. But chicken tenders, yes. Because those are groceries, and we deliver those, too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, alcohol, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now.

For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode

where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly.

This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. What, uh, so why don't you just tell me how it ends? No, I can't do that. First of all, I don't really know because they. What? They kill you off next episode? No.

No. But they, but I, they, I mean, I play a secondary sort of character. Right. And a lot of my stuff ends up in the cutting room floor. I don't really know my story, how it's being told exactly. Is that, do you find that disappointing? That they cut stuff out? Yeah. I mean, yeah. I mean, how much does it happen? Well, because I, first of all,

Not that I'm looking for complaints. I'm just saying, because do you guys, how much do you overshoot? Do you know what I mean? A lot. A lot. Yeah. Yeah. So um and they find i think a lot of gold that way and some of it is improv and they just leave the camera rolling sometimes they don't print all that because they're they're working with film sure oh really so it's not like digital where they can just do right right so there's a lot of improvising. There's quite a bit. Would you do like one take on script and then just go the next day kind of thing? No, we, no, it's sort of like, I remember when we first, the very first scene I shot, we, he said, let's do it as written.

And then, you know, after that, we'll just mess it up. Right. And he just, that was Mark Milad, the director saying that. That was Mark Milad, the director, saying that. And that is less true as they've developed their crazy shooting style. They don't want it to be complete chaos because it's already this chaotic, cool camera work they're doing. But we always get what they call a freebie at the end. Yeah. And they use it sometimes?

Yeah. Oh, yeah. You always get what they call a freebie at the end. Yeah. And they use it sometimes? Yeah. Oh, yeah. In fact, the whole Roman Jerry relationship came from just the camera rolling and Kieran and I flirting and being silly in character.

In like season one? Yeah, the end of season one. Yeah. And we just ran out of dialogue, but they didn't say cut. Right. So that started to happen. Yeah, we had a little bonanage about something ridiculous. Yeah.

And then I walked off and I kind of checked him out, and he apparently checked me out right after. And they were all laughing, looking at it in Video Village and how silly it was. And then they decided to write it in. That's hilarious. Yeah, I was excited. I was excited for it to come back. It's nice to have that Sunday night thing again. And I think I probably could have gotten access to press screeners of the first four. But I didn't.

I didn't do it. Yeah. Because I want to watch them with everybody else. Yeah, me too, really. Yeah? Yeah. I mean, but that's why it's a little hard for me to know, like, whether, like, there's an episode coming up, but I can't remember what number it is. Yeah.

Where, so I shouldn't talk about it yet, right? But it's coming up. Yeah. I, how can I put this? So my character survives a certain situation. Ordeal. Ordeal. And we never really see how. How can I put this? So, my character survives a certain situation. Ordeal. Ordeal.

And we never really see how. And it's just, I guess, this idea that Jerry, my character, is this like bulletproof monk and that everybody understands that she would always end up on her feet or whatever. But I had pitched myself for this scene. Yeah. They went for it. They wrote me in it. Then I improvised more. It was like everyone's favorite scene, and now it's not in the show.

Really? Because it's not central to the – I mean, I think what Jesse Armstrong is interested in is the family drama foremost. Right. But he created this really wonderful world of like – Characters. Characters and this whole venal, powerful, rich people world that is so topical in our country, really globally. Sure. Yeah.

Yeah. So it's hard for us non-Roys to realize because our stuff, I feel like I created my character almost out of, I sort of made her up to begin with. And what was the audition? The audition was some sides that were either going to be for Frank or Jerry or Carl. They didn't know. And they were like scenes with the boys. And so they decided, oh, maybe the general counsel could be a woman.

So they were also seeing, you know, starting to see some women. And I went in and read for it and i remember thinking that it's great they hadn't rewritten it to be a female character at least for the audition because then i think it was roman's character naturally was being um really coarse in the scene and crude and saying gross stuff yeah and i got to on my audition tape just be like unimpressed with him. And I'm flabbergasted, but it was meant more if you're a girl. Right. An older lady.

Sure. You know, like that sort of had. Yeah. But I would kind of wince, like when he got too disgusting. Right. And then that became sort of a character thing. Yeah. And then I got to just kind of, I mean, I think we all did in a way, but this character was really just like, I think, one of many suits they had to kind of create and invent.

And I'm sure, you know, it's a combination with all of us of what's their writing and what is our personalities and our imagination. Well, it's all very interesting because all of the characters are really acting in reaction to Brian's character. Yeah. I mean, that's. Oh, yeah. Everyone in the show. Yeah. Either like whether it's in a scene or it's just hanging in the air.

It's hanging in the air. Right. He doesn't have to be in the scene. Right. It's just everyone is reacting in their spineless ways. Yeah. Of one kind or another. That's right.

To try to survive that family, including the family. To stay in the loop. Yeah. I think I may be the only character who ever really yelled at Logan Roy in the scene about the feds cooperating with him.

I got to really yell at him and it was really satisfying. Was it? Oh, yeah. And also the other the the the two the two men that are in your crew what are their jobs are they all are they all lawyers like there's the one guy oh they're like coo and chief financial officer cfo and i was the general counsel yeah yeah so you're the only real lawyer uh No, I imagine there's like a whole floor of the huge high-rise that's legal.

But I'm the, I guess, the general counsel, and I oversee all the acquisitions. But what they're doing with Peter Friedman and David Rash. Rashi. Rashi. It's hilarious. I know. They're great. They're so good. God. They're so good.

Like, I get, like. God, they're so good. Well, you kind of all work together in that zone at times, right? Right. And Fisher Stevens, too. Fisher. I love it. Do you know Fisher Stevens?

I don't know him. I thought everybody knew him. Well, no, I mean, I know of him. Yeah, sure. No, he's just been around a long time. He has. I do not think I've interviewed him. Like, it's gotten to that point with this show where I'm not entirely sure anymore.

Really? If I've interviewed people. It might be my brain, too. I'm getting older. Right. But, I mean, we've done, like, 1,500 of them. I mean, that's amazing. So, I assume I've interviewed everybody.

But I would have remembered Fisher Stevens, I believe. Yeah, I think so. You know what I mean? He's kind of a character. He's a character, yeah. But now I got to ask my producer. But I mean, even if you hadn't interviewed him, you might have met him at a dozen parties because he's- I feel like he's one of those guys I feel like has been around my entire life.

Yeah. I think I saw him on Broadway in a Neil Simon play. Oh, yes. Right? Like, I can't remember, Brighton Beach Memoirs, maybe? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like, he was the kid. I think he replaced Matthew.

Right. Yeah. And so Kenny, my husband, Matthew, Fisher, they all go back that far to like practically teenagers. Is that true? Your husband, Kenneth Lonergan? Yes, Kenneth Lonergan. Like he started when he was that young? Well, yes.

He was one of the, I think he was the first year that they did the Young Playwrights Festival. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he was 18 and they picked his play as one of the plays. Which one? I mean, no, no, it was not a play we know now. It's like a kid play that he wrote. Didn't I just see him, like a resurrected play of his with Elaine May? Oh, yeah.

What was that? That's called The Waverly Gallery. That was good. Yeah, that's good. And she was, oh, my God. Did you see her in it? Yeah. Yeah, she was tremendous, I thought.

Amazing. Yeah. And you work with her daughter now, kind of. Yes, and also, but I had scenes with her in Margaret. In Margaret, yeah. And also, I did an Elaine May play on Broadway with Jeannie. Yeah. Oh, you did?

Yeah. You did what play? You don't remember? I think it was called After the Night in the Music, and it was actually three plays. Yeah. Oh, you did? Yeah. What play? You don't remember? I think it was called After the Night in the Music, and it was actually three plays, like an evening of three funny plays by her. Wild. What can I think of

this succession? He loves it. Yeah? Yeah, he loves it. Oh, that's good. Yeah. That's exciting. Yeah. It would be bad if you were on a show that he didn't like. I would imagine that wouldn't be a great situation. No. But you probably have. Yeah, right a show that he didn't like. I would imagine that wouldn't be a great situation. But you probably have. Yeah.

Well, he's pretty, you know, he's pretty, you know, game. He realizes that, you know, like on TV, it's not like you're not always going to get quality control about every single job you have. But I mean, just on a language level, this thing is just a monster. Right. Right? It's thrilling. It is. And the camera work.

Yeah. And the... Well, just sort of like... It's a language unto itself. So all these characters have to work within it. I mean, it may seem natural, but it's totally not natural. Thank you. That's right. Thank you. That's right. Thank you.

Because I have all these speeches where I have to like rattle off the exposition about, don't ask me what I'm saying. And it's written like you change tenses in the middle of a sentence. And, you know, it's hard to memorize. Yeah, I bet. Yeah. Yeah, because there's nothing normal about it. But because of the world and the nature of the emotional structure of this family and the business. And that business.

That, you know, you kind of – There's this chaos, like a – And you roll with it. Yeah. And there's a comedy to it, but it's perfectly expressive, you know, as characters. You know, you don't lose anything. I mean, that might be because of the actors. But you certainly, it's not, the language isn't really hiding anything.

You know, the characters are all fully formed. You don't feel like the language is stilted to the point where the characters can't come out. No, the characters are all distinct. Yeah. And they all have their own way of speaking. But they also all speak succession, right? Right. Yeah.

It's kind of an odd, it's like Oscar Wilde or something. I mean, not like Oscar Wilde. Right. It's equivalent in a way. Yeah, right? Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of an odd, it's like Oscar Wilde or something. I mean, not like Oscar Wilde. Right. But equivalent in a way. Yeah, it's something. Or something like that. I feel like it's like Mamet. It's like early Mamety.

Yeah. Right? Yes. There's a clip to it. There's a world of the language. Yes. But then the characters also have their own voice. Right.

Yeah, yeah. It's kind of like. There's a whole universe of succession. Right. Like the, you know, not just the language, but like everything about it. What's going on out there with the fans? How's that working? What do you mean about the—

I mean, like, are you engaging with the fans? Well, I'm on Twitter. Yeah. For—I don't know if you're on Twitter. I am, yeah. Very prominently. Kind of. I mean, I don't do much but promote this show.

Right. I don't engage. Every once in a while, I'll do a flurry of things. But I don't fool around with it too much. Yes, a flurry of twittering. Yeah, I can't take the abuse. Oh, it's awful. But I don't know what, I'm not sure what's going to happen to it now.

I think what's happening is it's slowly dying. Yeah. It's like people don't give a shit anymore. It doesn't have this sort of vitality of it. People are, like most of the people that were very active on it are sort of like,

well, it seems to be not great anymore, but I'm not going to go. And, you know, but you're engaging directly with the people. Sometimes, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's just interesting,

like this character, there's all these like, you know, young women or women who have, or older women who have been in careers like this their whole life who really are just happy there's a character like that. Oh, yeah. Okay. Because it depicts a certain thing that hasn't really been specifically revealed before, apparently. Interesting. Yeah. So it's kind of a role model in a way, although I don't think anyone in this universe of succession would be a role model.

Oh, people love that shit. No, of course they would. They want to be. People want to be monsters. Yeah. Are you kidding me? Trump has got the country divided. People want to be monsters.

Yeah. They're just like the it's been unleashed in the culture. Yeah. This sort of like, you know, shameless monstering. Yeah. That's a, hey, that's a good title. Shameless monstering. Well, like the 60 Minutes with Marjorie.

I don't even know what happened there. I didn't watch it. I'm just seeing. You don't want to know. I'm just seeing the backlash. And it's just sort of like, you can't feed the monsters. Yeah. And act like it's regular journalism time.

I know. It's like when Bill Maher had Steve Bannon on. It's like, it's regular journalism time. I know. It's like when Bill Maher had Steve Bannon on. It's like, you can't do that. I know. He's going to make a meal out of you. They're going to make a meal out of you because they have no respect for the context. No, but I think that the, I mean, I guess the media world, I don't mean to lump them all together. Yeah.

But that they got sort of spoiled. There was just this 24-hour news cycle of all the bad stuff that bad boy Trump did that they were just in some way must've been in pig heaven. You know, like there was just so much to report and they were just so, you know, all the media has become page six. Right.

So like, exactly. So like, since Trump was Trump in New York back in the day in the New York post would be exciting. Right. But now that's all media. I know.

That's what it is. All tabloid driven, quick made bullshit. So that's maybe another reason why Succession is so popular because it's a media company. Sure. But people are fascinated with rich people. Rich people. And power.

And yeah, people exploit power. Yeah. And also it's just funny. And it's just, they're funny. And it's all anti-hero shit. It's like none of these people are without fault that borders on incapacitating your empathy. Wait, say that again. It just means that all the characters are kind of shitty.

Yeah. And within the world, you engage empathetically with them. But the bottom line is, they all got it coming. Whatever they got coming. That's true. So it makes it kind of interesting. Yeah. When you read it, did you realize that it was going to be this amazing thing?

Or you just had a scene? I just had a scene. Wow. But I did right away. If I'd been a doggie, my little ears would have perked up. Or my little nose would have started twitching. I knew right away with that scene that been a doggy my little ears would have perked up or my little nose would have started twitching like i knew right away with that scene that it was really good yeah really funny i didn't know what the situations were but i could like the rhythm of it and the there were

just some jokes and that were really funny and oh my god i just was like oh i want to do this and i was just supposed to be in like four episodes i was a guest star yeah and then uh ended up being in every episode that year and then i came back as a regular, et cetera. Yeah. Wow. It's weird, you know, because like I was like looking up stuff on you. And, you know, this happens with theater people, too, that I've noticed who've worked in film and television.

It's like, where's the theater resume on Wikipedia? I want to see all the plays. I know. Well. I mean, because that's where you were. I know. Why is that? I know it's kind of sad.

Well, I know, but some people have the theater or the stage. There's usually a film TV stage sometimes. Oh, you mean on Wikipedia? Yeah. Somebody's got to do it. I don't know how it works. Yeah. Wikipedia is a mystery to me. Me too. I'm glad it exists because? Yeah, somebody's got to do it. I don't know how it works. Yeah, Wikipedia's a mystery to me. I mean, I'm glad it exists

because I've used it millions of times. It's helpful. Sometimes it's wrong. Yeah, sometimes it's wrong, as in the case, like, I'm scared to look at mine sometimes. Yeah, I haven't looked at mine lately, but I had a guest on here, I think it was Pam Adelon, who I did all this research on, but her wiki page was, like, not true.

Like, it was, like, somebody else's wiki page. Yeah. Like, but it wasn't like nasty stuff. It was just not her life. Yeah. So I'm going into this interview. Is it all mixed up? Yeah, just assuming all this stuff

and it's like none of it was, I don't know, it was some. My daughter, when she was like maybe in middle school or something, went through a period of going on Wikipedia and changing my age by a few years. She didn't like that, how old I was. I didn't know she was doing it.

That's a nice thing. That's sweet. But you say you got to New York, you were around, like when was that Brighton Beach, Benmore? So you were in that world already? That feels like it was a million years ago. No, I wasn't in that,

I mean, I didn't know that. I remember seeing the play like you did. But I had just moved to New York. What year? Gosh, I want to say just early 80s. Really? Maybe it was mid-80s. Yeah.

But yeah, I remember, I don't know. I'm so foggy anyway. I know. Why is that happening to us? I don't know. I get nervous. Is it gone for good? Is this like, I was sitting there watching succession

with my girlfriend who's younger and has a full mind and uh and i'm i just i got a brain fart going i can't remember brian's name i'm like what's what's going on i know that guy and sometimes it just goes away yeah yeah where'd you happen to me it does oh it's the worst with people you know a long time i'm now now i'm kind of obsessed with the the whole memory thing yeah like i had like in the middle of the night i i was like i couldn't remember i didn't even know why it was this particular guy but i was just trying to remember some guy i know and i and i couldn't quite get it and i was just twisting i just it was like and it's so alarming when it happens that then maybe your anxiety gets in the way of

remembering it don't you think yeah so it becomes the way of remembering it. Don't you think? So it becomes really like, I know it makes your blood pressure go up or something. You're like, what is happening? But I didn't even need to think about this guy. For some reason, his brain, his name was stuck. But anyway, so wait, so where do you come from? Where'd you grow up? I come from Mars.

You do? You're one of them? Yeah. Maybe. Come from Mars. You do? You're one of them? Yeah.

Maybe. Well, I was born in Kentucky, and then my family moved when I was about six or seven, I guess, to the Carolinas, mostly South Carolina. Mostly grew up in South Carolina. And like Charleston? I wish. No, Greenville, which actually turned out to be a really nice town. Yeah? But Charleston's the really pretty, famous town. Yeah, it's all right.

You know, it's a beach town. You know, it's kind of a touristy, weird thing. Yeah. I mean, it's quaint and cute and, you know, it's got a lot of charm. Well, it's got a lot of history to it. Sure, but. It's fascinating, sort of. I guess so.

But, like, it's still one of those towns that's got, you know, streets full of shitty stores for tourists. That's true. Yeah. Way to ruin it for me. No, I mean, I. No, there's some really good restaurants there. Sure, yeah.

And they have, like. Yeah, I was down there. I've been to. Sort of a been to cultured place yeah yeah it's it's southern old southern culture i mean it's got such heinous beginning of slavery horrible roots that um and just so much like it's sort of so fascinating historically yeah yeah it you know i don't know if i dug in to those words i wasn't there long enough yeah but i i had it i had an okay time i stayed at a nice hotel i think i feel like i went there when i was so i played violin when i was growing up that was your thing i guess so i mean your choice not your parents were your parents already my parents Yeah, sort of. My parents had determined I would play the violin.

They did. That's true. Yeah. But I was happy to try it, and I did. I played okay. I mean, I played well, I think. I was in it for a long time. Anyway, I was going to say that when I was in, I was maybe a freshman in high school

or possibly in junior high, and I made it into Allstate Orchestra. Yeah. And it took place in Charleston at an old, at Ashley something, Ashley Hall or something, this beautiful old school. But all the other kids in the orchestra were like groovy teenagers. That's how they seemed to me. Yeah, sure. And the other guy I shared a stand with, his name was Alan.

I don't know what happened to this guy. Yeah. But we were like on our own at lunchtimes and at dinnertimes. Yeah. And I remember this one time we just had to walk across the street to McDonald's because no one took us to dinner with them. Yeah. Because we were like the nerdy little kids. And we found a place on the fence at Ashley Hall.

Yeah. Where the spikes had come off. Yeah. It was like a wrought iron fence. Yeah. where the spikes had come off. It was like a wrought iron fence. And so we put ketchup on our white shirts,

our uniform white shirts, and then hung ourselves over the... I was like, poor us. See what you made us do? And they were, of course, like, oh, brother. Hope you have another white shirt in your suitcase. Look at the dumb nerds with their joke. Yeah, their stupid sense of humor. But you guys had a good time.

Yeah. Were you a good violin player? I think I was pretty good. Yeah? You know, it was never my passion, but I think I... Could you pick it up again and... No, I think I would need to take lessons again.

But you could hold it and play it. Oh, yes, yes. Oh, no, I can play it, and I can, yeah, I can play it a little bit. Yeah? But I would need a refresher course if I were really to take it up. And do you, like, how big of a family do you have? I have a it a little bit. Yeah? But I would need a refresher course if I were really to take it up.

And how big of a family do you have? I have a brother and a sister. And your parents just moved around a lot? Yeah, I'm not sure why. I mean, not just all within South Carolina. Not a job thing? Me? It must have been a job thing.

I don't really understand why. Yeah, maybe it was a housing thing. What business was your folks in? It must have been a job thing. I don't really understand why. Yeah. Maybe it was a housing thing. Ah. What business was your folks in? Well, my mother was a housewife until later life. What'd she do later? Oh, she was interesting. Yeah?

Yeah. Yes. This is in the 70s in Greenville, South Carolina. She became a Head Start teacher. Yeah. in Greenville, South Carolina. She became a Head Start teacher. Yeah.

And then she went on later, and they moved to North Carolina, and she worked for a library there, but she didn't have a library science degree. Like, she wasn't, she was just sort of like a, she was just meant to shelve books and be an assistant, you know, work at a library.

Yeah. But she created this whole outreach program where she would take, like a bookmobile, but she would tell stories. Yeah. She'd go way out in the sticks. Really? And she would read to these kids, and she'd dress up like a witch. She called herself the Witch of Onslow County.

And she would go out into the sticks and read these stories. And she would realize that sometimes the parents were hanging around listening and that they were illiterate. Like, they couldn't read. Oh, really? And they're fascinated. And there'd be times when I'd go in the supermarket with her and like kids would just run, and adults too, would run up to her like, Miss Mary, Miss Mary. Really?

She was like a local hero. Yeah, she really did make something very cool of her life. And she had no college degree or anything. She was an Italian-American from Scranton, PA, who married my dad, who was a Southerner, and came down south and was always a fish out of water. Wow. She just took it upon herself to just spread the joy of reading and performing.

And she just loved kids. Yes. And performing. And she just loved kids. And I think she just, I don't know how to say this quite. I just think she related also to these people that were on the fringes of society or were kind of, you know,

like, couldn't read or couldn't afford this or that and she just, because she'd grown up that way. She'd grown up in a really poor family.

In Scranton? In Scranton. Yeah, Italian-American family. Oh, they only spoke Italian at home. So your mom was born

in America though? Yeah. Yeah, wow. But like, she had to start school and learn English, like one of those kids. Yeah, it was born in America, though? Yeah. Yeah, wow. But she had to start school and learn English, like one of those kids. Yeah, it was rough for Italians. Yeah. For all the immigrants.

It was pretty rough, man. Yeah, that's right. And I can't imagine Pennsylvania was any party, I guess. No, and well, it was a big Italian-American component, which I remember the family reunions and so forth growing up. Oh, yeah. Not many of them, but they were just so different than my Southern relatives. And they were so lively and kind and funny and vulgar and really good cooks and everything. They were all beautiful.

All my cousins were these gorgeous Italian-looking. And expressive. They were usually completely Italian. Expressive. Expressive, yeah. And expressive. Because they were usually completely Italian. Expressive. Expressive, yeah. And what was the Southern experience with that family? Okay, so my dad was an architect. Yeah.

So I always get to go back to him. And his dad had been sort of a really prominent architect. Down there? Well, he was from England. And then he had, at some point point he'd begun working in New York. Yeah. And he worked, and I get these two guys' names mixed up, so we'll have to check this, but I think it was Richard Howland Hunt, but it might be Richard Morris Hunt. They were, I think, a father and son architecture firm, but they built the Metropolitan Museum and all these Vanderbilt mansions.

And he worked for them. He worked on a lot of those buildings here in New York. Yeah. There in New York where I live. Yeah. And then the Biltmore House got built in Asheville, North Carolina. Yeah. And he was sent down as sort of a resident architect.

I mean, a whole firm worked on it. But he knew Olmsted who did the Central Park he did the grounds there and I've seen pictures He knew Olmsted? Yeah I've seen pictures of him with his little derby and his

like Really? Yeah cause he was he had my father late in life and then my father had me kind of late in life so it's almost like

we skipped a generation Huh So I would I mean that's a you know fascinating and my

the way I understand it my my granny was from Glasgow. So he was from Yorkshire. Yeah. And then my granny was from Glasgow. Yeah. And I believe she was on, she was like a domestic in the house when the Vanderbilt's lived there. No kidding. And so they met and fell in love.

And then he lived down there. Wow. He became a big, he designed a lot of the courthouses in North Carolina. He was like a big, famous architect in North Carolina. Wow. That's how my of the courthouses in North Carolina. He was like a big famous architect in North Carolina. Wow. That's how my dad's family, they're both, both my parents are first generation American. Right. So it's not like multi-generational Southern thing. It's just where he ended up. That's right. Because of the work. That's kind of wild. That's where my grand, I don't know why my dad went back there. That was perverse.

Because then, you know. But your dad was an architect too? Yeah. Yeah. And an engineer. You know, he would do other related things. But, you know. Did he grow up there? Yeah.

He grew up in Asheville, North Carolina. Yeah. Which is a really groovy spot. Yeah. Actually. I like that. I like Asheville. Yeah.

Yeah, me too. So I guess people just want to go home. That's probably why he went back. Do you? I me too. So I guess people just want to go home. That's probably why you went back. Do you? I did for a while. I don't want to go home. I did for a while. You know, I grew up in New Mexico, so it's kind of beautiful.

Yeah, it is. But the weird thing about the idea of that, the romanticizing, the notion, if you come from a beautiful place, like, I'm going to go home, is that your heart's looking for something. Yeah. Right? Or it's looking to pick up where it left off. Neither of those things are possible. You can't go home to what you remember as home, right? It's weird.

Because if I go home now, if I go to New Mexico, I'm like, within two days, I'm like, what the fuck am I doing here? I got a couple of friends there. My old man's still there. And I go see him as he kind of loses his mind. But it's not, I think it's an idea. Yeah, but there's also people who are like, get me out of this dusty little town. I got to go to New York or I got to go.

I was thinking about going back to New York because I lived there for years, too. Yeah. I mean, that was more my mood take on it. Yeah. When did you leave the South? Well, I went to, I started to go to Florida State, and I kept not taking physics and not getting above a D in math. And I kept just dropping them, dropping all those academic classes and just being in plays. And then I started getting offered jobs, like not hugely well-paid jobs, but I started getting acting jobs.

And I just sort of gave up the farce of being in college. You started getting acting jobs in Florida? Yeah. Think of that. I mean, they weren't like, it'd be like summer theater or like I did an independent film there

that then turned out well. So did people find you at the school? Well, with that film, they did. Yeah? And then one professor hired, it was called Gal Youngin. It's by Victor Nunez. It's his first full-length feature. Yeah.

He was a teenager. Yeah? And then I worked at a regional theater in southern Florida. Which town? In Miami. Well, in Coconut Grove. Yeah. It's not there anymore.

But I did a season there, but I was still supposed to be in college. And then I moved to New York. So I, yeah. So you just, you, were you, did you take classes? At Florida State? Yeah. Acting? Yeah.

Yeah? Yeah. Was that the primary? And it was a big, it was a big theater school. I mean, I guess it still is. Yeah. Like, has an MFA and BFA program in theater. Uh-huh.

It's a proper, you know. Yeah. And for the, if you live in the Southeast, that's maybe a natural place to try to go. Sure. Is it a big party school? I guess so. But, I mean. Yeah.

That all passed me by. You're too busy. I was too focused. You're in the drama department. That's right. Over there doing that. That's right. With all the misfits.

Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. Not too many. Some misfits the misfits. Yeah. Yeah. Well, yeah. Not too many. Some misfits and some blind ambition, you know. Oh, yeah? Yeah, you know, like this friend of mine calls, there's a certain type of actor, it's called a chainsaw ingenue. Oh, wow.

Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, you know, that really ambitious ingenue. Sure. That when you're young, when you start out in your career, you just, that's your age group. Just eating up the scenery. It's like, Jesus, you know, it's bad enough to have, you know, all these external problems with trying to get a job. Yeah. But then to have.

That girl. Yeah. People. But like, what's like, well, out of those people that you remember who were of that ilk, did they rise? Did they succeed? Yeah. Some of them because they're so driven. Oh, really?

They're still around? Yeah, I think so. Oh, wow. Well, yeah, but now I'm thinking of my whole, you know, all my ingenuity years. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, some of them definitely and some of them were flame outs, you know. Yeah, yeah. I mean, like some people with the biggest sort of bravado, you know, they kind of crumble

after, you know, the first wave of rejection and failure. Yeah. You know, they don't have the... Pushing too hard to... Yeah. Just, you know, just... It's painful to watch, though.

It's awful. The ego is fragile when they're that much of a spectacle of themselves, unless they've really got the goods. I don't know why it seemed like the ingenues, like the girls were the most like this,

but, you know, because maybe not. I think the boys were still kind of like not admitting they wanted to be actors. Yeah. That's not really manly or whatever. Yeah. That's an interesting thing, that whole not manliness of acting. Like I talked to some old timer, I can't remember who, where they were really up against that, where it was not a profession.

Not a serious profession for a guy. Right. But, you know, they had to, like in film, it had to be made kind of, you know, masculine at some point. Yeah. You know what I mean? The whole, there was a generation of actors there that were, had to go out and live the life. Yeah. You know, like the Steve McQueens of the world.

Yeah. Or even earlier, I would think like Joel McRae. Yeah, yeah. You know, having a ranch and, you know, all those guys had ranches. Yeah. You know, like the Steve McQueens of the world. Yeah. Or even earlier, I would think like Joel McRae. Yeah, yeah. You know, having a ranch and all those guys had ranches and rode horses. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, and some of them were crazy, man, in the 70s. In the 70s? In earlier. Yeah. Because I read a book about the making of the Wild Bunch, and it's like, the amount that these guys drank and rode dangerous vehicles and stuff, it was like, what the fuck? How did any of them survive? It's crazy.

What is the one? That was the Sam Peckinpah movie in the 70s with William Holden, Warren Oates, Ernest Borgnine. Wow. What a lineup. It's an insane movie. I guess so. But it's just, yeah, masculinity. Interesting.

So you come to New York. How old are you? I was probably 21 when I finally. What was going on there? What year was that? 81, 82? I think it might have been 81. Something like that.

Wait a minute. I'm a little foggy on this. Because I came to New York kind of for a while and just auditioned for other regional theater gigs. I didn't really get an apartment, so it was kind of a gradual thing. But then when I finally got a job that was in New York, I had auditioned for this national tour of this play, Crimes of the Heart, Beth Henley's play. Yeah, I remember that one. Yeah, and I was kind of like, well, I don't know if I want to go on a tour, but it was obviously a well-paying job and great roles for women and all that. So I knew I would take it if I got it, but I was kind of ambivalent about it.

It cast out of New York? Yeah. Yeah. It was on Broadway currently. Yeah. Okay. And they were trying to launch the national tour. And then they postponed the national tour but about that time yeah the actress playing the

youngest sister gave notice and they offered me the part so my first job in new york was on broadway wow which was just like that's crazy did you have an agent and stuff no i mean i i had i had someone who you know took credit for that that because the casting director called and said, remember, there was some girl who had a good Southern accent who I saw for Tender Mercies or something. And then they had to look it up because I wasn't signed with them. But I guess you were after that, though. After that, I got a good agent. Was it them? No, it was not them. Oh, good. No. They after that, though. After that, I got a good agent. Was it them? No, it was not them.

Oh, good. No. They took credit, though. Well, you know, what I mean is they took their commission. Oh, they did? Yeah. Of course. You know. So that experience, who else was in that play with you?

Holly Hunter. Wow. We were both replacements, Holly Hunter and I. And then almost everyone else was, I think, in the original cast. Elizabeth McKay played the older sister. I can't imagine the leap. It must have been just. Oh, my God.

It was surreal. Yeah. It was surreal. And what had happened, too, is that in the first cast, it had been Mary Beth Hurt in the role that Holly played later Holly Hunter later played and then my part was played by Mia Dillon

and Maya Dillon sorry yeah Maya Dillon and so every time one of the first cast

like so Mary Beth had like the star the number one dressing room yeah and so when she would leave

then Maya went in there yeah and then when Maya gave notice, they were all going to shuffle around again and the stage manager was like,

that's enough. Whoever replaces Maya is going in there. So I, not only my first job was in New York, but I was in the fucking, you know,

number one dressing room and with a, you know, a theater full of women who'd worked their way up the ladder, the understudies and the other sisters.

So it's big and it's got a shower and everything? Well, I don't remember it had a shower, but it was all decorated. It was the first little floor up. It had the star on the door. You know, it was like the stargazer. The Golden. Yeah.

Is that still around? Yeah. Yeah? I think it's still called The Golden. I think it was called something else for a while. Huh. Maybe it's called The Golden. That's exciting.

Yeah, it was really exciting. it does does the career just take off then well you know in a fashion you know how that is like well i mean well you're well when you do a play you're in the play for a while that's right i was in for like seven months oh so you just locked in making a living yes that was a refreshing new feeling and And then what happens? I mean, how do you become like sort of a force to be reckoned with on stage? Oh, well, I don't know. I mean, that's the thing is that then— Or just working. Yeah.

I mean, it seems like there's a few people in the succession that are also kind of working New York stage. Lots of theater actors. Yeah. Lots. That that's a world. It is. And it still exists. Yes. Only in New York stage. Lots of theater actors, yeah. Lots of them. That that's a world. It is. And it still exists. Yes.

Only in New York, really, for the most part. Maybe London, I think. London. Yeah. And Chicago. Oh, yeah, Chicago? Mm-hmm. Where people can live and work

because there's enough productions going on. Yeah. But it is sort of a specific and unique community, New York theater actors. True, yeah. I know, and it's such an old tradition. I mean, it's such an institution. Yeah, and who do you find that you're,

like how do you integrate into that community? I mean, who are you meeting? When did you meet Kenneth? Oh, well, he's my second marriage, and so I didn't meet him for a long time. What happened with the first guy? Was he an actor? He was trying to be an actor at that point, and then he discovered writing comedy and writing, and he had much more success as that.

Oh, yeah? And we split up pretty quickly. Pretty quick? But he was somebody you met in New York? Yes. Oh, okay. Well, we were doing a play out of town, but yes. Oh, okay.

We both lived in New York. But it was a quick marriage? I thought it was going to be the marriage. Oh, you did? Yeah. But it didn't turn out that way. I'm sorry. Yeah, thank you.

But I have a really good husband now. And we're married 23 years. That's a lot. Yeah, man. Yeah. So I have no regrets. But at the time, it was awful. Yeah, it's terrible.

Divorce is terrible. Yeah, it's a nightmare. But so after this play, though, like I don't know if I – I talked to some theater actors. I don't know specifically talk about it. But it seems like you were – you've done a lot of it. Yes. A ton, a ton. And that life is sort of specific.

How does it start? So you get done with Crimes of the Heart, and then what happens? Well, you just, you start, you know, you're just always auditioning, especially when you're starting out. For anything? Because it's like, you know, I mean, the New York theater scene is not just Broadway. No. No. Yeah. And it doesn't pay very well.

Oh. But you, it's, I don't know what to liken it to. I think it's probably a lot of artistic or entertainment type things are like this. Where you're building something and you're building your craft and you're getting better and better at it. And you're meeting people that are stimulating and funny and interesting. And you're being, you know, influenced and influencing other people. It's really heady. It's like this great, you feel privileged that you're part of it. And you may not, you know, you're making your rent, but you're not getting rich.

Sure. So, but one. But you're part of a tradition. Part of a whole thing getting rich. Sure. So, but one. But you're part of a tradition. Part of a whole thing, yeah. Yeah. And so, but one casualty of it is that you kind of have to just go from play to play.

Like what you, you know, you audition and you pick the best one you get offered. And you can't really afford to just lay out too long hoping to get the lead in the new Scorsese movie. Right.

You just go from play to play. So in terms of film and television, that wasn't the primary focus. Film and television? Yeah. I really loved theater. It's a real, you know, it's a real writer's medium

and also an actor's medium. Yeah. It's really like you know a wordy a wordy scene in a tv show would be like five pages long sure it's the worst in in a play you go on for 20 minutes in a scene blah blah you know it's you're just you're yes and you're your own editor yeah and no one's to find the light no one's stopping it and it's you have lots and lots to say yeah and so it's really. And so it's a very creative thing. No, it's great.

And especially if you're doing a new play. Yeah, which I did a lot of. You did. That was my preferred thing. Yeah? Yeah. And then you're starting from workshopping almost. That's right.

And you're evolving while you're in it. That's very fun. It's very exciting. But it's a taxing kind of racket, the stage. Yeah. I mean, yeah, after a while, I was like, I'm never going to get out of this pay grade if I don't. Like, you know, people who dance and sing can, you know, land in a big, well-paying Broadway musical from time to time. And that's really lucrative.

Yeah. Comparatively. Yeah. But doing plays off-Broadway is not – it's like rent money. So if that – so you can kind of get stuck in it. And so at some point I just had to be like, I'm going to try to do more television. I remember about the time – well, when Breaking Bad was first on. Yeah.

When my friend Alan Ball was doing True Blood. And we go back to college. He was at Florida State when it was. And he offered me a part on it. And I came out here to do it. And he had just discovered Breaking Bad. He was like, oh, you have to see this show. And then I just remember I was kind of by myself.

My family weren't with me at first because I was just out here. Yeah. Like staying in a shitty apartment in West Hollywood. Yeah. And watching like all of The Wire and all of these shows and being like, it's different TV than what I grew up with. Or what I was auditioning for when I was in my 20s. The Equalizer and Law and Order. Nothing against Law and Order because that underwrites the New York theater or it did. Yeah. You know, but.

And, you know, everybody, or it did. Yeah, sure. And everybody loves those shows too. Yeah. But boy, TV, as everyone's been saying now for a decade or more, has blossomed and flourished into this very creative, very diverse. Well, yeah, the limited series thing is the thing. The limited series thing? Yeah. Yeah, I mean, there's shows about every possible thing you can think of. But also, there are shows where, like, I started to notice it recently because I've watched a couple of different—

I just watched a screener of this HBO thing coming out based on that Texas murder, you know, the 11 death with Elizabeth Olsen and Lily Rabe. Oh, yeah. Like, it's a limited series. Jesse Plemons is in it, too. Oh, he's great. And I just noticed, like, everyone's acting the fuck out of this thing. I mean, they're really dug in. Yeah.

Characters are deep. And they've got time. Yeah. To do it. Yeah. To make, you know, to deepen these characters, to have real arcs. Yes. And transformation.

Arcs. Yeah. What a concept yeah and it's like it's it's kind of astounding when you know great actors can dig in like that yeah yeah and i mean i always think that's part of the success of um my show succession yeah the success of sure session is that it's um it sort of requires the audience to think and listen and keep track. And like, it doesn't explain things.

You might mention something and then you, if you, if it nags at you and you're like, what do they mean by that? What's that going to lead to? And it's full of little clues and Easter eggs. Yeah. Yeah.

And I think audiences are really love that actually. Yeah. They love it. And also like this, I like the, I just like the, the non-streaming actually. Yeah, they love it. And also, I just like the non-streaming element. Oh, waiting for Sunday night to come. I do.

It's better. It's a lot to process. It's suspenseful. Because I've watched, like I've done that sort of thing where, you know, I watched Breaking Bag when it came out. But then I'm like, I'm going to watch it again because the girlfriend hasn't seen it. And then you watch two, three in a row, and it's exhausting. You're not supposed to put that much shit in your head.

I know, that much violence. That's the thing. There's a lot of... It's exhausting. This is a thing that took someone two years to make. I know. And you're just going to dump it all in. And you can't stop. I don't know. Some people really get a lot of the binging thing. I do, but it's

literally like binging anything is afterwards you feel tired. You don't remember it as well. You're bloated. You need to lie down. Yeah, a little bit. Mentally, emotionally. But I have to assume, though, that – do you know Lily? I've met her.

Oh, you never work with her? But, like, there's all these characters in the world of the stage. Did you get to meet all the old characters? Definitely. Oh, old characters? Definitely. Oh, my God. Definitely. Yeah? Yeah, it was great.

Like who? Like who were your heroes that you got to work with or meet? Oh, gee. I mean, I didn't get to work with all of them. But, you know, I got to meet all these, like, great stage actors, Marion Seldes and Zoe Caldwell. And I was in this play for a year of my life

on Broadway called Lend Me a Tenor. Yeah. Like silly, fun, but it took place in the 30s. It was really like a farce. Yeah. Really fun.

Victor Garber was in it. Oh, yeah. Philip Bosco was in it. Yeah. Jane Cannell was in it. It was like really like the royal family of Broadway at the time.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And I mean, just the stories you'd hear and like, ah, so great, so great. Was there insanity? Yeah. Yeah? Yeah, there's some insanity.

How out of control has it gotten out there on stage when things get a ride? Oh, man, there's, yeah, there's been some crazy and stressful things, but just fun. I had this play I did as Bees in Honey Drown. Yeah. I played this fantastic character by this playwright, Douglas Carter Bean. And she turns out to be a con artist. Yeah. And it all takes place in like, I guess it's supposed to be like early 90s or mid 90s.

And everything's fabulous and it's all Paramount Hotel and all the groovy bars then and it's all Madonna and, you know, she's dropping names constantly and so it starts off though that it's almost just like this romantic comedy

and you don't find out she's a con artist until the end of Act One. And then Act Two is a deconstruction of Act One going, wait a minute,

wait a minute, what were her tells, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And who was she really and we got to see how she created this persona for herself. is a deconstruction of Act I going, wait a minute, wait a minute, what were her tells? And who was she really? And we got to see how she created this persona for herself. Oh, interesting. And it was really interesting and really fun, but like a talk fest.

And at one point in Act II, when you are seeing how she's trying to develop this like fabulous club, you know, groovy Soho personality, and she's, her real identity This fabulous club, groovy Soho personality. And her real identity is Brenda Gelb from Pennsylvania. And she's got this boyfriend she's in love with. He's gay, but she won't realize it.

She won't face up to it. And he wants to teach her how to be fabulous. So he shows her Rosalind Russell, Tallulah Bankhead, Audrey Hepburn, and Liza Minnelli. And she memorizes their characterizations. And that all rolled into one becomes her persona. Wow. So she's this infectious, really fun character. Yeah.

But there was this scene where you got to see me doing these impressions back to back. And I'd be like, I remember one night looking at Scott, who played my boyfriend, and like, I already did Liza, right? Oh, God. He would cue me and be like, you got that one, honey. You try Lifeboat. So he knew? Yeah. Yeah, we know each other's lines.

It's great camaraderie. When you're on stage and something goes awry, it's amazing. Because the pace of the play is the pace of the play, and if you're in it, you're in it. But usually not on autopilot. You're engaged. And then when something happens, it's like that moment where it's just like, oh, my God.

Oh, my God, I know. I watched it. I remember certain things happening where things, like I saw Gary Sinise's Buried Child. And I thought it was a good production. I don't think it lasted very long. And it's a heavy play. And what's his name?

Terry? Kenny? Terry Kenny is the lead in that. And there's that scene where he walks in with all the corn you know just like and then like i just remember the night i saw it this one corn ear rolled off it's just like you just gotta let nothing you can do but he's being upstaged in a very heavy moment by just by just watching that one cob one cob going down yeah yeah sam shepherd play right yeah yeah yeah i remember i was on stage in a in a college production of By just watching that gourd. One cob. One cob going down, yeah. That's a Sam Shepard play, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I remember I was on stage in a college production of Don't Drink the Water, you know, the Woody Allen play. Oh, cool. It's a big, goofy play. Yeah. But there's a scene where, you know, it's at an embassy and it all ends up in like a Russian embassy or I can't remember. But a bomb comes in the window and I'm this old Jewish guy. And it's supposed to land. I pick it up and I'm like, what's this?

You know, it's a bomb. We throw it back. It's all goofy. But one night, it just flew in the window right into the audience. The bomb just. They evacuate the theater. Well, no. It was one of those things where how do you, you know.

So I try to improvise, and I go, what was that? And then the other guy goes, I don't know. I didn't see it. Oh, great. That really helps. So eventually I just went to the lift of the stage. I'm like, give me it. And I go, it's a bomb!

Oh, yeah. Good. It's weird, because you do have to honor something. I mean, you're not supposed to take it out of the play. You know what I mean? Well, listen, so one of my first jobs I got, I don're not supposed to take it out of the play. You know what I mean? Well, listen. So one of my first jobs I got. I don't know if you can leave this in the conversation.

Well, let me tell it. It's a funny story. So one of my first jobs when I was supposed to be taking physics in Florida was I was in this children's theater. And it was kind of a good children's theater. We did good plays usually. And this one, we did this one holiday one that was very stupid and we did one one section was supposed like one was supposed to be about Hanukkah actually and one about I guess Kwanzaa or something anyway we did the Christian one the one about the nativity and everything yeah and we're trying

to think how what a little 15 minute sketch sort of as part of this play for these little bitty kids. Yeah. And so my friend John Youngblood and I were a sheep and a cow in the manger with Joseph and Mary. And we get in a little argument because we've got a lot of pride about our gift that we're making. Yeah. That we're offering. For the baby Jesus. For the baby Jesus. Yeah.

And I think mine was that I was knitting a, I was the sheep. Yeah. And I was going to knit a sweater out of my wool. And John was a cow. Yeah. And he was going to make ice cream for the baby. Sure. And then we got into this, it was a very weak play.

We got in this fight about, you know, we were being too proud, you know, proud, prideful. And we ruined our gifts, supposedly, because of this fight because the ice cream got on the sweater and there was no more ice cream and the sweater was stained and we had a big fight. And then the way the play had been structured was that there was audience participation, but you carefully set everything up so that you always get the answer you need for the story to go forward so like what do we do now you've kind of put that you've put you've laid the seeds and somebody some kid goes go behind that door behind that door you know whatever so we're in

that point of the play and it was like 9 a.m in some school in louisville kentucky yeah in december and all the teachers are sitting in benches on the side of the gymnasium. We're like, we've marked out our stage on the floor of a gym. These little bitty kids are half asleep, and they had to sit like crisscross on the floor. Like crosswalk and just like no chairs.

Yes, on the floor. And the teachers aren't paying attention at all. And so we carefully set up that really what the Christ child wanted from us was our heart, our love. So that had been set up and we're like, no, we know better. I have a sweater. I'm going to make ice cream. So then we set it up so that what will we do? What can we give him?

What will we do? The answer was very easy. We planted it very obviously. Give him your heart yeah and one kid who wasn't paying attention just went kill him and you're you know you're not supposed to pick up these like errant weirdo things but i was so shocked that woke me up like we're all asleep like the actors were asleep the teachers were asleep the kids were asleep i was like what i said what he said kill him. Kill the baby.

And then the whole side of the theater started chanting, kill the baby. Oh, my God. The baby Jesus. The baby Jesus. We were like, no, let's start back. Let's start back. I don't know what the teachers do. Nothing.

They were just chatting. They were gossiping. They had no idea. Oh, my God. Just one of those. Yes. That's it. Yes.

Day in the life of. That would be a big problem now. Yeah. Yes. You want to make note of that kid. Yeah. Well, I mean, he didn't know what we're talking. I mean, he was just.

Yeah, he was just being a joker. I think he was even just lost his place in the story. You know. Yeah. I don't know what he thought we were talking about. Those moments are just crazy on stage. Yeah. Yeah.

I've had a lot of weird moments on stage. I bet you have. Yeah. With audience members or whatever. Yeah. So what's it like, you know, day-to-day living with Kenneth Lonergan? Well, it's no day at the beach. No, he's great. But like, I mean, do you guys, I mean, you were both, you know, deeply involved in the controversy around that movie Margaret in terms of like releasing the correct print of it. Right.

And I mean, like that's a masterpiece, that movie. I think so too. Yeah. Yeah. That was a hard time. When you work, you're in the movie, but I have to assume that when he's working on something or writing, how involved does he let you be? Well, I would say generally I leave him alone. Does he want you to read things? Yeah, sometimes, yeah.

But I mean the general rule of thumb is he needs private. Don't bother me. Well, you know that thing, you must have this, where if you talk about it too much, you won't write it. Yes. Like you feel like it's written or something. Yeah. So we just don't talk about it usually. Right.

But sometimes he'll say, will you read this version of this? Yeah. You know, tell me anything. Yeah. And also he likes to do readings with actors. Oh, he does. As a way of seeing if a scene works and like. For film too?

Yeah. No kidding. For film, too? Yeah. No kidding. For TV, everything. That's one of his big tips he tells writers. That's interesting. Good actors to read it. Well, that, you know. Allowed, you know.

Sedaris does that with essays. No kidding. Like, you know, when he does readings and stuff. Yeah. Like, he'll make note of where laughs are. Oh, yeah. Uh-huh. Well, that makes sense.

Sure. Why not make it as funny as possible? Where they aren't is more. Sure. Exactly. Yeah. It's so funny. So do you get involved with those readings sometimes?

His readings? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, that's interesting. All the time. Because he says it's sort of like a great screener for where there's too much or where there's bullshit or where something's awkward to say. If you have really good actors, they will make it work if it can work. Yeah.

Innately. I'm sure. They will give it truth. So if you have really good actors, read it aloud. You'll see where it lags. You'll see where it does and that. Yeah. It's a really kind of cool system. Well, yeah, because you can, I mean, especially with movies, it's good to sort of, you know,

get rid of stuff you don't need early. Right? Yeah. But, you know, with TV, like, it seems a little different because you're kind of looking for things. Like, what are we going to do? Yeah. Maybe so.

We need some more stuff here. Yeah. Like, it's a little odd to me, this succession thing when Logan's girlfriend and assistant, what's her name? Carrie? Yeah. Yeah thing, when Logan's girlfriend and assistant, what's her name? Carrie? Yeah. She's my good friend, Zoe. Yeah, Zoe.

Like, she wants to be an on-air talent. Yeah. And I was sort of like, where did that come from? Do you know what I mean? Because they were sort of setting her up last season. Like, it looked like she was going to get pregnant. I know. She was trying to get pregnant. Right.

Because she's giving him the smoothies with the stuff. Yeah. I know. And then all of a sudden it's like, like, I don't know when it happens when you're creating a season of television where somebody says, like, why don't we make her, she wants to be on air talent. Yeah. Yeah.

Because it was surprising to me. I think that character's supposed to be one of those chainsaw agitators. You know what I mean? Like, he just wants to be famous, maybe. Oh, interesting. So drawn to his power and his... Oh, so the baby fantasy crapped out?

I don't know. Oh, you can't tell. Well, you know, who knows? They have a sequel. She may have... Oh, yeah. She may be knocked up. Oh, yeah. It was just sort of like one of, she may be knocked up. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It was just sort of like one of those things that added a real menace to it. Yeah. Like expelling the old children and just sort of like this idea that there would be this. I wonder if that was just a storyline.

They were like, we're not going to follow that through. I think there's a lot of those in all TV. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. But, okay, so with Margaret, I mean, what was that? Because I don't know that, I feel like not enough people have seen that movie now. Yeah. You know what I mean?

Yeah. What was the struggle? Well, Margaret, it was like an epic. Yeah. It was an epic. Yeah. Like the theme of it, and also just it was long. Yeah. It was an epic. Yeah. Like the theme of it and also just it was long. Yeah.

But I don't think excessively long because, well, part of the action of the play is the tedium of getting stuck in a legal battle. Yeah. That you want to get some moral satisfaction out of. And then it's really you get weighed down in tedium. So part of the story is supposed to be about that. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. And also, it's just an epic, it's like a teen drama epic.

Yeah, early Young Kieran. Young Kieran and Anna Paquin. You know, all these great, Sarah Steele, all these people were in it. Allison Janney, briefly. Allison Janney, briefly. Allison Janney, yes. Under a bus. Yeah, she's so good, yeah. So many good people in it.

Yeah. But it truly is an epic. And then, you know, there, like when he brought it to the producer the first time to read, it was like, you know, the phone book. Yeah. And he, you know, but everyone was like, shoot it all and then we'll edit it. And then that just became tricky. Right, sure.

You know, and then how to not throw out the baby with the bathwater. And I think they should just let it be a longer movie. It's long anyway. Yeah, but now there's two versions of it out there, right? Yeah, but even the one they were okay with is long. So, like, it kind of just became a pissing contest in my opinion. Sure. I don't know. Yeah. But even the one they were okay with is long. Yeah. So it kind of just became a pissing contest, in my opinion. Sure.

I don't know. Yeah. You know, I sort of, we had a little kid, you know, and we had our daughter by then, and I did not,

I stayed out of the real insanity at that time. Yeah. But it was heartbreaking. Such a good movie. Yeah. So many good performances in it. Crazy. Crazy.

And such a good, you know, just a good story. But he seemed like, I interviewed him, Crazy. And such a good, you know, just a good story. But he seemed like, I interviewed him and he seems like a relatively socially evolved person.

Like he's not a brooding genius, you know, it doesn't seem. He's kind of, he's kind of broody. Yeah. He's kind of,

he must have been on chipper behavior with me. Yeah, no, he does have a... I know, there's sociable Kenny and he can be the life of the party. He's very witty. Did you guys do a lot of that? Did you do a lot of entertaining in the theater world?

Yeah, a fair amount. That's fun, right? Yeah. But, I mean, when he's working and stuff, he can get in a funk, yeah. Because, well, writers work... He works at home. But, yeah. But, I mean, when he's working and stuff, he can get in a funk. Oh, yeah. I mean, because, well, writers work. He works at home.

But also, like, you know, he. Get out of the house. You're just going to get. But his themes are, you know. I mean, you know, you would have to be sort of down in it. Soulful kind of, yeah. Yeah. Soulful and.

Human condition kind of. Yeah, but heartbreaking. Moral dilemmas. Darkness. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, soul searching kind of yeah the heartbreaking moral dilemmas darkness yeah yeah yeah yeah soul searching kind of stuff yeah yeah no he's a bit of a depressive yeah yeah is he working on a thing bunch of things oh really yeah like what i don't know if i have flirty to say like he's working on a play oh good he's working on two different movie scripts, working on a TV thing. Wow. So we'll see what happens first. And you?

Well, yeah, I have a couple of little jobs coming up, but I want to, I kind of, now I'm really interested in maybe becoming one of those performers that write their own material. Oh, yeah? Yeah, because. Why not? Why not? That's what some of the best stuff write their own material. Oh, yeah? Yeah, because— Why not? Why not? That's what some of the best stuff turns out to be. Yeah.

And it's hard to be a woman of a certain age. And, I mean, that was a wake-up call to play Jerry because she was a real dimensional person. And a lot of that was my input, what I brought to it, and what they encouraged me to do and how they met me halfway and wrote for me. So I'm like, well, why should I, you know, so many parts,

supporting parts or parts for older people, not just women, older people are kind of stock, you know, they're sort of boring. And I think, well, you know,

on film and television. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I don't know how it'll go, but I really want to, that's my next thing is I want to try to create content for myself and my friends. Yeah.

And like maybe, I don't know, being a little collective that we kind of support each other and write for each other. Well, it's very interesting to me, you know, a person's place in, you know, the culture after a certain age, especially on film and television. So much of that stuff, just in general, a lot of TV is limiting. And you know it going in. You're going to read it and be like, that's it?

Yeah. Yeah. And it becomes a drag. Well, that's one reason I was in theater for so long. Yeah. Is that the TV parts were soul-killing. Yeah, sure. Usually. Yeah. Unless you were the lead, and often

then that case, too. But it's interesting what I'm seeing, too, in comedy, or specifically at the comedy store where I work primarily, and I had someone in here a couple weeks ago, Kathy Ladman, who's a stand-up who's been doing it forever, and she's in her 60s, and Jimmy Fallon had her on, which it was completely just the presence

of a woman her age and proudly sort of gray hair doing her bits and killing. You just don't see it. No. And I was so happy that Jimmy did it. And then there's a couple of old timers at the store who, like Tom Dreesen, used to open for Frank Sinatra. Good Lord. He's got to be in his late 60s, early 70s.

And Argus Hamilton is another guy that's around in that age group. And there's a patter to it that is very familiar to everybody from their childhood. There's a way of presenting. Yeah. And there's a gravitas that comes with it. And they kill. And there's like, you know, and it's sort of a beautiful thing that, you know, goes unnoticed because you don't see it. Yeah.

And I'm seeing it and I'm like, you know, there's so many voices of experience and wisdom of a certain age person that just doesn't have a place in the culture. Right. And it is a little disturbing. Yeah. Because I'm getting that age. Yeah. So we have to write our own shit the culture. Right. And it is a little disturbing. Yeah. Because I'm getting that age. Yeah. So we have to write our own shit, man. Yeah.

What are you thinking? Well, I'm not going to talk about it. Okay. You don't want to talk about it. You're just going to do it? Yeah. Well, we'll see. We'll see.

We'll see. You're going to do it. Yeah, I'm going to do it. Just go. Like, when I'm trying to build an hour of stand-up, I'll just go get a small theater, do a residency, and fucking figure it out. Really? Yeah.

Oh, I'd like to follow you around and watch that. Yeah, but that's what you can do, especially in New York, with no pressure. If you have a crew or you have a way of getting a few people in there to workshops, if you tell the audience that this is what it is, and thank you for being here, I'm glad you appreciate it, but I don't really know how this is going to go. And you tell the audience that this is what it is and thank you for being here, I'm glad you appreciate it, but I don't really know how this is going to go. Yeah. And, you know,

you can do it. People are probably supportive. Of course. And something real is happening. Yeah. That's great. Yeah, yeah. Well, it was great talking to you.

You too. I'm glad you did it. You too. We need to talk about What? Betty Gilpin. Oh, what about her? I'm going to go see.

I just heard from her. Oh, I love her. I was in her first see. I just heard from her. Oh, I love her. I was in her first play that she did out of drama school. Really? And she is talking about funny people. I think she's one of the funniest people I've ever known. Oh, a great mind, a great wit. Great beauty.

Oh, my God. You were in a play she wrote? No. Oh, just you were with her? Just her first play out of, yeah. I was in a play with her. How is that? And she was just new on the scene.

And I knew her parents. Her parents are both actors. Big actors, yeah. Big stage people. So they were kind of ahead of me. Did you know it was a baby? No, no, no. Did you see them around?

No. And they were kind of like a little bit ahead of me. So I didn't really know them. I knew who they were. Sure. And then Betty was just so beautiful and shy. And she played this part really heartbreakingly. And she played this part really heartbreakingly. And she played this sort of awkward character.

Yeah. And then she would just be so fucking funny in the dressing room. Yeah, she's something. And she's gorgeous. Yeah. And not all of those things go together all the time. And that's someone we have in common. Oh, yeah, she's great.

I guess they're going to do a premiere of her new TV show that has something to do with nuns. She just texted me about it at the DGA Theater. I guess they're just going to have a couple episodes. I'll go check it out. I have no idea what it's about. It has to do with nuns? Yeah. I don't know what the show is.

But it was very interesting working with her on GLOW for so many seasons. Because the two leads of that, Alison Brie and Gilpin really come from different disciplines of acting. And it's really interesting to watch. Their tools were different, but they were both very effective. But it's definitely two different approaches. And you never knew what the fuck Betty was going to do. Yeah.

That's great, though, right? It's great. Of course it is. She's keeping it interesting and funny and weird. Just her Instagram. Yeah, yeah. I haven't watched it. I didn't get on it.

Is it good? Really good. Really funny. I haven't looked at it lately, but. Did you read her book? No, she has a book? Yeah. She has a book.

I didn't even know that. Oh, you want it? Yeah. You have a copy? Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'd love it. Yeah. Well, when you see her, say hi from Jay. I will do that. I'll text her. I have one. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'd love it. Yeah. Well, when you see her, say hi from Jay.

I will do that. I'll text her right after this. Okay. Good talking to you. You too. Okay. New episodes of Succession are on Sunday nights on HBO. You can stream every episode on HBO Max.

Hang out. Will you? Hang out for a second. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising.

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It is interesting that the way you see Logan is this nihilistic vacuum who is playing a game, really, right? That's right. And I said that. In the first series, I said it's a game, and the kids don't get it. They think it's a matter of like they don't get the fact it's a game. They're taking it too seriously. They take it too seriously, and they don't get it. And, of course, Logan, like all games, he takes it really seriously.

But they don't get the game. So they can't get on to the game. And, of course, at the end of the— It's a generational thing. It's a generational thing. But at the end of the last series, the youngest boy, because he's the eldest of my second family and my heir apparent, Kendall. He's pushed him and pushed him and pushed him. And he's pushed him to such a point

that he's actually going to have to make some... It's a great ending. You know, sometimes. It's great. Because he's a proud father. That is the beat at the end. Yeah. He's a proud father.

He says, oh, look, the kid did well. All of those episodes are available for free in whatever podcast app you're using right now and at WTFpod.com. You can get every episode of WTF ad-free by signing up for WTF+. Just go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF+.

I'm just playing basic rock guitar. That's what I'm doing now. All right. It's cranked up the less Paul. I it's, it's been done before by me, probably more than three times, slightly different,

maybe slightly different. Here we go. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Who am I? Who are they? Monkey and La Fonda, cat angels everywhere.