WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1431 - Tituss Burgess

Episode Date: May 1, 2023

Tituss Burgess was in the movie Respect alongside Marc, playing gospel singer James Cleveland. But it was Tituss’s own original gospel recordings that provided Marc with a fuller understanding of the Real Tituss. Tituss talks with Marc about finally being seen as the Real Tituss, thanks to his work in season two of Schmigadoon! and his writing of the new musical The Preacher’s Wife. They also talk about faith, self-acceptance, forgiveness and seeing the light. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated

category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die we control nothing beyond that

an epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel to show your true heart is to risk your life when I die here you'll never leave

Japan alive FX's Shogun a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney Plus 18 plus subscription required T's and C's apply.

Lock the gates! All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuck nicks? How's it going? What's happening? Where are we at today?

What day is today? Monday. You know, I'm recording this. You know when I'm recording it. I'm recording it yesterday. And I'm hoping that some tickets for the Willie Nelson birthday celebration come through. I don't know yet. I'm recording this in midday, and I'm waiting.

I've worked every connection I have. I didn't know it was going to happen. Someone, someone told me Keith was going to be there. So I don't know. It's, it's a stretch. Yeah. I don't know anybody for what am I going to have? I'm going to pester Keith's publicist. I'm going to call the stones publicist. Hey, you know, could you let Keith know I'm around? And, you know, I've got several of the beanies. And, you know, he probably might remember me, but I'll wear the Keith beanie that I pestered you about.

And I'll just, I'll meet him backstage. I'll just hang out in the wings for their set even. I'll say hi to Willie. And many people are probably wondering why haven't I had Willie. I don't think Willie in general, it's been my sense, is a big conversationalist. That's my sense. And my dad's wife, Rosie, is probably the biggest Willie Nelson fan in the world. Seen him many times, has many t-shirts. I might've told you this and I don't think she'll mind me sharing it again, but she has a, um, a bedspread, a quilt that is made primarily out of Willie Nelson concert t-shirts. There's some others, there's some other country acts

involved in the quilt, but, uh, it is all the t-shirts. I guess there's a company that just does that, but that's how big of a fan she is. And while she's laying in bed with my cranky old, you know, slowly losing it dad, she's just covered by Willie Nelson's. It's sweet. I gave her the new Willie album, which is actually very good. That guy has put out at least 100 records. I mean, it's crazy. I get a lot of old Willie records

and you don't even know. It's like, is this just another cover for another record or is this a whole different record? Those country dudes put records out, man. Put them out.

So we'll see. It's his 90th birthday party. Kit is very excited. I hope they come through. I feel like we're close to being able to go. I feel like it'd be sort of a life-changing event for Kit. Maybe even me. To see old Keef do some country music.

But yeah, that's what I'm anticipating. That's what I'm waiting for as I talk to you now. Today on the show, I talked to Titus Burgess. He's an actor and a singer. He's been on Broadway. He was in The Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt. He's on the new Apple TV Plus series, Schmigadoon. He's also released several solo albums. We were in the Respect movie together. I met him on the set of Respect. He played James Cleveland. It's a big part. And he actually has a lot to say about James Cleveland and about the influence the man had on modern music. It was interesting to talk to Titus because I don't know a lot of his work. I didn't watch

Kimmy Schmidt. I knew he did the work on Broadway. I've watched some of his work on YouTube, on Broadway. I watched a little bit of Schmigadoon. I kind of went on a deep dive with him into his solo music career. And there was an album that he had recorded for the church he belongs to. It's a gospel record. And to me, it was sort of the gateway into him as a performer and as a person, his struggles, his faith. person, his struggles, his faith. And I just sort of lived in that record for a little while. It was an album called Welcome, which he did 10, 11 years ago. And I don't know, you'll listen to this conversation and it got deep. It got deep. It got heavy. It went to places where i don't know if both of us were going to be able to hold it together really that that happens sometimes and it's kind of it's an

interesting moment as the guy who hosts a show when when you get into a zone with a guest and and i'm emotionally invested and they are and and we're in some areas, some emotional areas, some personal spaces where like, obviously this is a safe space as they say. But I don't, a lot of times I want to make sure I can hold it and not come kind of unraveled myself. And I've been on that precipice a lot, uh, with guests, especially guests that speak honest to me and emotionally about trauma or, or, or personal pain. And it's happened a few times where it's like, wow, okay, we can be in this moment, but it's sort of on me to sort of ease us out of it and through other things. So it was very emotional and I didn't I didn't expect it and he didn't expect it.

It may be triggering to people that experienced abuse when they were, you know, children. Either physical or sexual abuse so So that, that I can tell you, uh, but we, we handle it, the conversation. Well, uh, it was, it was pretty great. I dumped a bunch of, uh, expired medications. That's an interesting thing when you're a recovering addict. I had two bottles of, what is it? Hydrocodone. Is that what it is? That I was prescribed for the teeth work over the last year or however long it took me to get that implant. There was a couple of kind of invasive stuff.

And I was given two scripts for hydrocodone, which I got the scripts filled because I didn't know how much pain I would be in. And I trusted myself. And I actually, out of both those prescriptions, only took one pill right after one of the procedures. But, of course, they sit there because I got an addict's brain. So I'm like, you know, I'll just keep hold of this hydrocodone in case I need it for other pain, which right out of the gate is not, that's not good. That's not good recovery thinking because you only take pain medicine as prescribed. And if you've got a real big Jones, you know, you got to get somebody you trusted to give you that medicine at the, at the proper intervals. But I'm like,

yeah, just keep it around. Cause here's the thing, man, you know, I'm coming up on what, 23, was it 24 years sober? Yeah. 24 years sober in August. And you still got a dopey, you know, you still got an addict's brain. You're not going to throw away drugs. You know, I, I mean, you're not going to throw away drugs until you throw away drugs. It's a weird thing, but I didn't feel like I was on the wire. I threw out a bunch of other drugs too. I, I, you know, I had some, uh, you know, it just expired shit, but I dumped him without, you know, but without really thinking twice, I didn't, it was just time. I'm just trying to clean up.

Things, shit amasses. But it's funny because then there's that thing where you're dumping them. You're like, well, I bet you someone would want these. Of course there's someone who would want them. It's fucking Vicodin, bro. What are you going to do? You know, put out a little, you know, throw a line out, just sort of like, hey, man, I got some hydrocodone, generic Vicodin, you know, if anyone needs it,

right down the fucking toilet. No regrets, but it's always interesting how long shit hangs around, isn't it? So look, Titus Burgess is in season two of schmigadoon which is now an apple plus um again also a content warning about this talk there is a brief discussion about sexual abuse when we're talking about titus's relationship with his father and um so now you know but this is a a powerful and and good and engaged talk about a lot of stuff all right here it is hi it's terry o'reilly host of under. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis

producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+.

We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. I like that you didn't know where you were. It was a nice start. Good.

Just walking to some strange man's house. It wouldn't be the first time. Because they just got you running around? Yeah. I just go with all it tells me. Yeah. And it's all for... Schmigadoon.

Schmigadoon. Yeah, brother. Yeah. That must be... Is it fun? Oh, my God. It's the most... It was the most creatively satisfying experience I've had to date.

Really? Mm-hmm. Because it enabled you to not only do something you love to do, but have some comedic distance from it, in a way. It had less to do with what it allowed me to do, and more to do with who I was working with. Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Cinco Paul is an extraordinary showrunner. Yeah. And he doesn't leave with ego. Yeah. And every day that I showed up to set, Cinco saw Titus. Yeah. And I was able to talk to Cinco and I did not have to.

Um, this is, and I want to be very clear. Yes. This is not in contrast or an inverted way to, to comment on my past jobs or the people that I worked for. I'm talking singularly about Schmigadoon. Well, I mean, geez, now I need to know what the hell you did.

What do you mean? Well, I mean, when you have to qualify something like that. Well, no, because I historically found myself in the middle of trying to explain myself the more I try to explain myself. And I'm just so sick of doing it. Right, yeah. And so, but I also, I'm appreciative of everything that has happened

that led me to here. So if someone's listening that I've worked with that don't want to think, you understand? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But Sinko, a lot of people, when they meet me, because of how I came onto the scene, that has been kind of the only way they can hear me.

What is that specifically? What do you hang that on? Probably Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt. But not the musicals? No. Because the musicals are straight up other yeah characters yeah because i bore my same name right and okay and whatever yeah yeah so they see you as that guy some yeah which is fun and that's glorious and great yeah um but but i don't hover where titus and dramadan Titus in Dramadon lives. Yeah. And I'm a grown-ass man, and I make gorgeous, beautiful mistakes. Yeah.

And I have a gorgeous, beautiful mind and lots of thoughts, and I'm not as ebullient and jovial and sprightly as some of the characters that I've played. So when I say Cinco met Titus, I really mean, like, I came to set, and we talked about the words, and we figured out how we wanted to do this thing. And I was not forced to be something I've already been. Oh, okay. And that, because you think that's primarily because he saw you for who you are and you started from there. yes but also i started to show up in a way yeah

that forced people to do it even if it meant uh things got weird for a little bit yeah it just i was like you don't know that you need me to be me yeah and you understand yeah. And that was different for you? Yes, because I would normally, to keep peace, I would just allow folks, I would just do it. Yeah. I would tap dance. Sure. And do double duty. Yeah.

Slowly work more of Titus Burgess into the fictional person that you want it i mean to be about those days are over yeah yeah well it's interesting though because like when i see some of the stuff you did like i'm i'm kind of uh i don't go to a lot of musicals but when i go i always cry and i i get very engaged with them i just well there's something about people singing that that just kind of especially in musicals, that moves me almost immediately, even if it's a happy song. Okay. I don't really understand it. It was like there was one night, because you and I were in a movie together, and I don't know if you were there, the night that they had that. Amazing Grace?

No. It was just a crew thing, right, over where we ate. And they had a local combo playing. No, I wasn't there for that. You know, and no one knew whether Jennifer would come by. Yeah. Or why, you know, just assumption that she probably wouldn't. Did she? Well, she did.

And she got up there and sang, you know, just with this local combo, some old song, a Christmas song. I don't even know. It was something about the lamb. I don't know which song. Navajo the Lamb probably. Maybe. Maybe. Yeah.

And it was like, oh my God. You know, just somebody could just turn that on and I'm like crying. I don't know. Well, that instrument is divine. Like there's not many people who house the facility that she has access to. Like it's pretty spectacular. Yeah. And, but I think the point I was going to make

is that when I watch you do, like, in terms of you showing up in a different way for yourself in these parts, is that you do have the facility to humanize, you know, musical parts. And while you're singing, make a very sort of real connection with other characters.

And, you know, so that was always in place, right? Yes. Yes. I think I was talking more about film and TV. Okay. But yes. But that helps, right? When you're working on a musical thing.

It does. It does help. Of course it does. But it helps more when you have people who are clear. Yeah. And that's what Cinco is? Yes, sir. Yeah.

But this show, it's sort of satirizing musicals, but honoring them, right? Yeah, sure. Yeah. I think it borrows the construct of how musicals are made and the conventions that we honor. Yeah. I don't know if it's satirizing so much or even parodying.

Oh, it's an earnest musical comedy. Yeah. Right. It really is. Yeah. I mean, it has its own plots and such, you know, but like it's familiar in a way that I think both pays homage to the musicals of the eras that we're paying homage to, but also makes it more quickly consumable to people who may not know their way into musicals.

Yeah, so that makes it, for someone like me, I don't watch a lot of them, but people who have never really watched musicals can be like, oh, I know these guys. Yeah, I know this kind of. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's funny because I was like trying to figure out some other work because I know we worked together and I know you were, we didn't have a lot of scenes together, but we were around. Yeah. But then I started looking around for stuff and I found like these old records of yours.

Oh my God. Ah. Oh dear. Yeah. Oh, dear. Yeah. I'm very proud of those records. You can listen to them and you like them? Yeah. Yeah, they're good.

They were all good. But I mean, what sort of struck me on some level was the gospel record that you were involved with. Oh, that I wrote for my church. Yeah. Yeah. Called Welcome. Yeah. And like, because I'm like, I'm not a godly guy. I'm not. I'm a sort of. Yeah. Yeah. Called Welcome. Yeah. And, like, because I'm not a godly guy. I'm not a sort of an agnostic Jew.

Okay. Yeah. But, like, you know. What is godliness? I don't know. For me, you know, in terms of, like, the way I usually put it is that I don't, I was never taught how to use God. Huh. It's sort of interesting.

Like, you know, you grow up in a religion and they talk about God, but I think you have to be taught how to use God or how to have it in your life in a way. Very good. Right? How have you gone this long without using God? Yeah.

I don't know. I distract myself very heavily. Okay. You know what I mean? Like today, for instance, this is like the story of the day. Like I get up. I'm in a dark place for whatever reason. You know, sometimes in the night, you know, you go to a dark place.

I get up in a dark place, and I make myself, you know, go do what I do. Go to the gym. Try to get the brain working. Get, you know, level off. And then I'm to the gym, try to get the brain working, get, you know, level off. And then I'm playing the God music. I'm playing your God music, you know. And I start to hear, like, I start, not unlike musicals, like, I don't listen to a lot of gospel music. This is new gospel music, really.

But I can understand how it gets you into the zone of God. Okay. Now, I guess that song, the last song on that album, Love is an Action, is that your song? I wrote all of those songs. You wrote all of them?

Yeah. Because that song is such a personal, heavy story. Yeah. And that's your story? That is a story, and it is true. Yeah? It is not my story. Oh.

It happened to me. It happened to you. It is not singularly my story. I have several stories. Right, right, right. Yeah, but that was what your family situation was at the beginning. That is true. And where did you get brought up? I grew up on a farm in Stevens, Georgia. Stevens, Georgia. Stevens, Georgia? Yes. It's outside of Athens, Georgia. And then my mom and I moved to Athens when I started first grade, I believe.

And lived in Athens for all of my, for elementary, middle, and high school. And then moved to a little town called Winterville, which is minutes away from Athens. And she's still there. My stepdad is there. And I went to University of Georgia in Athens as well. That's your life there.

I just say Athens because no one's going to believe I grew up on a fucking farm. It's true. I fed hogs and chickens and chucked corn. Really? Hell yeah. Yeah. And did they sell the farm or what happened? I fed hogs and chickens and chucked corn. Really? Hell yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And did they sell the farm or what happened? My grandparents passed away. Oh. That's what happened. But the farm was active and you would eat the stuff from the farm? Hell yes. Wow.

Yes. I'm thinking about doing some gardening. Gardening is not as big as farming. No, I know. I want to start small. Okay. I want to go back to something, if you don't mind.

Okay. Activating God. Yeah. And this isn't me trying to convince you or something. I just want to pose a question to you, though. You know how to be taught how to use oxygen. Yeah, that's good. That's a good point.

That's all I want to say. Okay. Well, that is from a place of unquestionable belief. That is no fact. You didn't have to be taught how to use oxygen, did you? No, I didn't. Is someone teaching you how to breathe? No.

Aren't you breathing? I am, but I don't know if that's not a false equivalency, oxygen and God. Why not? Well, that's because we come from different places. Okay. You know, I believe that people that have God and have that acceptance of that type of truth, you know, have a, certainly a place to go with, you know, like today I was thinking about what's the difference between being bored and being lost. Oh.

What? That's good. Right? Yeah. Because I was thinking about Bob Dylan, right? That's what I was thinking about. Like why did Bob Dylan go through a Christian period out of nowhere? Was he saved? I don't know this story. No, I don't either. Okay. But my, my premise is, is that he got it bored and he needed a new way to look at life.

Now, I don't think it stuck, but he was Christian for a few years and made some good Christian music. So I can, then I started thinking about the difference between being bored and being lost. But, but it seems like that your relationship with God is, only – it's a huge part of you publicly and personally. Yeah. And that album is kind of a great – it's a great album. Thank you. It's a fantastic album. But also here's what else.

So my relationship – so God for me is pure energy. Yeah. Right? Yeah. I don't – I know the Bible. I've read the Bible. I don't read the Bible anymore. Sure.

Yeah. Whatever. Yeah. And not to undermine Bob Dylan's experience. I don't know what it was. I'm just projecting. All good. Yeah. All good.

Yeah. But like, I will say, um, whether we, whether we are practicing it or, or, or not activating it does not mean it is not there.

Right. And so, so to call it a Christian period, I think, would be, let's go back to your lost or bored, which I think is so fantastic because it might be the same, two different sides of the same coin. It just depends on how you frame it. Just moments ago I was lost.

I didn't know where I was. And then you told me. And now I don't feel lost. I feel found. But just in just a few words, you were able to gather me and put me at ease. And I saw your face and I felt some past point of reference. And so for right now, we are, our religion is sitting and looking at each other and staring at each other and talking about whatever we're going to talk about. And when I leave, will this have not been real?

You could describe this as a Titus and Mr. Merritt Christian moment. You know what I mean? Sure. I guess what I'm saying is just because someone picks it up and puts it back down doesn't mean it wasn't real and didn't mean something. And I do believe what you say about being lost and being bored. I think that's kind of this whole fucking thing is while we're down here or up here or wherever we are. Sure. Hurling through space.

We have a net is what I often say. hurling through space with a net is what I often say and I think it is for us to shape shift and to try on different

yeah different things yeah so you might listen to that album again and want to come to my church or you may never want to speak to me again

it is okay well to what you're speaking to it's funny because I once I got a buddy of mine Tom Rhodes used to be again

not used to be but he was he's gone up and down in his intensity of his Christianity. Okay. Okay. But I remember back in the day, we were both at a show, and I was being a dick, and I had just gone on stage. I didn't do so well. Okay.

And I got off stage, and he's looking at me, and I'm looking at him, and I said, well, maybe if I had Jesus on my side, you know, I would have done better. And he looked at me and goes, you do. Well, let me ask you something. When you were in circa the energy during respect. Yeah. What did you think was happening? Oh, I knew it was happening. I mean, I understand it.

I resist joy and I resist love. Oh, that makes me sad. I know. Because I understand it now. And I don't want you to feel that. I'm getting better. It comes and goes. Are you serious?

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Well, I knew what was going on and I was open to it. But then again, I was playing a fairly aggressive, pretty atheist Jewish rock guy. So you were dropped into it. Well, yeah, but it wasn't that far. It wasn't that much of a stretch.

Okay. How about for you? I mean, you have at least a personal in your heart relationship with James Cleveland, right? Yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah. Because all that stuff was pretty new to me. Because all that stuff was pretty new to me. I had to get into the homework of understanding Jerry's relationship with Aretha, Aretha's relationship with Cleveland, and Aretha's life.

I had to read her biography and Jerry's. So I learned about your character. I learned about that whole world. But you grew up with that. Yeah. And what was the power of that guy? Dr. Cleveland is responsible for shaping how we consume God sonically. Yeah.

At least in my church experience. Yeah. And often in my home life experience. Yeah. In my, and often in my home life experience during the week there was very little secular music playing. Yeah. In my earlier years. From when you were

a little kid at the farm? Yeah. Your grandparents? Yep. Yep. Yep. They listened to

AM radio and gospel tapes and albums and it was all James Cleveland. And, and it wasn't until I went to college and would hear, um, some of the ensembles that were on campus. I have a degree in music

and they would sing these spirituals and hymns. And I was like, this is Dr. Cleveland's stuff. This isn't like- Arrangements? Yes. Okay. But they were treating it with the same gravity as- The point is, I didn't realize how far his reach extended into the secular world and the world of non-believers, if you will.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I even hate that terminology because it already poses an us and them kind of thing. And I'm somewhere in between. Well, that's interesting because that means on some level, depending on what the dates are, that Dr. Cleveland, in some some ways is probably partially responsible from the jump from gospel to R&B. Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, he literally taught Aretha Franklin how to play the piano.

Yeah. She had an ear for it, and he helped her develop it. Yeah. He was not singularly responsible for her learning how to play it, to play piano. And he also helped her delineate what was a gospel sound and what was an R&B sound. And she references him and that relationship throughout her, or referenced him and that relationship throughout her life, sort of as an anchor. In many ways, he and the church were her brick and mortar. sort of as an anchor. In many ways, he and the church were her brick and mortar. Yeah. You know?

And so to sort of, to think that there's even a dialogue or a conversation to be had about God's influence in the world and in the world of music. It's just hilarious to me because people don't even know how far the clutches of this man's music and God's presence is in our 808 right now. Yeah. You know, the highway and listening to Drake. You know what I mean? It is everywhere. Wow. Yeah. You know, the highway and listening to Drake. You know what I mean? Yeah.

It is everywhere. Wow. Everywhere. And when you were a kid, when did you start singing consciously? Very good. Six, five, six. My mom and my grandmother both sang. And my-

Like in the choir? Well, my mom sang in the choir. Yeah. And my grandmother would just sing as she was doing housework and making biscuits in the kitchen. I can still see her to my right as she's kneading dough and looking down at me singing hymns. And she had a beautiful contralto voice. And we would just harmonize. She wouldn't think anything of it.

She just sort of would throw it out there. And it was her capacity to be so inside the lyric and reckless abandon to how she sounded that I think taught me that it's okay to be unsure of the presentation as long as the intent is sincere. Right. You know. And that's your own, that would be, that almost is an equation that defines your own authentic voice. Yes. Huh.

Yeah. And, and so you start now, like, I don't, like, there's a lot of stuff on that middle church record where, you know, that you're dealing with a lot of things about your life with who you are in relation to your understanding of god yeah and now in your childhood you know in that song love is an action you know what was that you didn't have a relationship dad at all okay um so my biological father um so i mean i'm my mother's only child my biological father has another son who i've not seen in probably 35, 40 years. He was in and out of jail. And my mother was made to raise me by herself.

And she would often describe their relationship as toxic. best toxic and, uh, and she wasn't entirely sure that she wanted the act to happen, but there I was. You're right. Okay. And, um, I don't press it. Yeah. Um, my mother, uh, wrestles with lots of things that I think were passed down to me. Mm.

Um, and, uh, she has just started the road to healing. Um, recently. Mm-hmm. That's good.

Uh, and so have I. Um, and so, um, so my dad was not there. But my dad was always, mm,

no more than 15 minutes away from us. Huh. And my earliest memories. Why you? I didn't think we were going to talk about this. My earliest memories of him, when I would call him in an attempt to connect, when I would call him in an attempt to connect, he would bring one of his girlfriends over in his two-seater Corvette,

and I would end up at my uncle's house while they went out, where I was molested repeatedly. where I was molested. Repeatedly. And so he has recently tried to come back into my life. Your dad? Mm-hmm.

And I had been having dreams of him and me trying. And in the dream, I would in the dream I kept telling myself you can release it you can release it I'm not really sure what I meant

so I just sort of had to like assign it a definition yeah and so you think you're open to it no we've been talking and texting but I don't have the

there's so much to clear out to keep me on track and the restoration to keep me on track. Yeah. And the restoration of a relationship that never existed is not one of them. Right. That's a big realization. Mm-hmm.

Because you hang so much on the expectation of what was supposed to happen. And then that kind of sits there like an unrealized thing. But then after a certain point, you realize it was never there and it's not real. It's not real. It's not real. What is real is his desire for me to absolve him. Yeah. Forgive? I'veve him. Yeah. Forgive?

I've forgiven him. Yeah. I believe that everyone did the best they could. I've been doing the best that I can. Sure. With the tools that I had. It doesn't mean you didn't do what you did, and it doesn't mean I didn't do what I did,

and it doesn't mean it hurts any less and is any less traumatic in our bodies. Yeah. And any less real in the ether. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I totally forgive him. I don't have to go building a relationship.

Sure. Right. Start and fuck that. Yeah. Exactly. Let's fuck out of here. Exactly. relationship.

Sure. Right. Start and fuck that. Yeah, exactly. Let's fuck out of here. Exactly. Because like, you know, I think that what happens in my experience is that whether you want to or not, you'll regress. Yes.

There is no world, especially if I'm the only one in therapy, where that relationship is going to be any different than it already has been. Awful. Just the idea of it. Oh my God. Right? It's weird. I think that there's some part of me that might take issue with doing the best they can

because, like, I used to do a joke on stage from, like, you know when you say your parents did the best they could? It's like, they didn't. They didn't. They did. You know, they didn't know what they were doing. They were winging it. Mine were.

You know, it sounds like your mother was solid. My mother was. You were. It sounds like your mother was solid. My mother was... You continue. Just that they did what they could. Maybe it was the best they could, but in some part of my brain, I believe that they didn't really know what the responsibility

of having children would be. Is that not the same thing, though? Yeah, but you should know a little something. You should be prepared a little bit, right, to sort of like take responsibility, at least for yourself in the relationship. Maybe I'm still angry. No, no, no, no. I completely understand that logic.

And I think you are right. and I think you are right but I still don't and I also think that is doing the best you can because yeah I get it there is no other thing

after a certain point you can't have regrets because it happened that is true and it's how you frame it right yes lord is it ever now during this this traumatic And it's how you frame it, right? Yes, Lord. Is it ever. Now, during this traumatic childhood, I mean, was singing the salvation? Was church the salvation? Was your grandmother?

Was your mother? It was my grandmother. Right? It was my grandmother. It was my grandmother. And what's so funny is my grandmother was like a cold woman she was not warm like but she loved titus yeah and when she left yeah i left and so did my mom my mom is still here yeah um but it my mama my mom is the baby of eight children eight are they around most of them wow it's a very big, big old family. Are they still in Georgia?

They are all still in Georgia. Do you live here or New York? I live in New York. Okay. Although I have a feeling I have to move out here soon. I'm not sure, but we'll see. So when your grandmother left, it left everyone untethered a bit? In fact, it left my mother and I tethered.

Oh, tethered. And I don't think we were able to move on from it. Oh. You stuck. Yeah. Oh. And so then... And at a very early age,

I was tasked with holding space for adult emotion. You know... Yes, sir. It's the worst. Yeah. I mean, I think that's sort of what I was referring to when I'm talking about they didn't do the best they could. You know, because both of my parents were very, you know, self-centered people.

Okay. And they were needy people. And it was not, it didn't go back and forth. Okay. And I'm not projecting. I'm just sharing. I appreciate it. That, you know, there's a responsibility to that where you – like, you know, where it's not that you're parenting them, but they're not parenting you and they seem to need help.

Right. Right. Right. Right. Do you find that that has – well, I guess the answer is yeah, because we're sitting here talking about it. Stifled me? Well, I don't, you said that. Right.

So unpack it for me. I think it has made me wary of love. What? No, I just understand that. You know, because it feels manipulative. There's no, at the core, there's a price. Oh, I just understand that. Because it feels manipulative. At the core, there's a price in your mind. So trust becomes difficult, if not impossible, right? Yeah.

And then on the other side of that, how effectively can you love without fear, right? Right. Yeah. So I deal with that all the time. I mean, I'm like, I'm a twice married, childless, 59 year old man, you know, wondering, you know, at this moment, you know, like what happens now? Where, you know, am I going to figure this out? Am I going to be able to do that?

Like, and I think that when I listened to the music and I talked to you now, like the idea that, you know, at the very core, you at least can open your heart to God. Okay. Right. So that love exists, right? But like the, I didn't feel it yesterday though. No, no. What happened? We can talk about that some other time. Okay. But, um, yeah, I don't know what happened. We can talk about that some other time. Okay. But I didn't feel it yesterday. And I had to call some people who were in the sun and were able to tell me what was true. Oh, good. Even if I didn't believe it. And it got me through the night.

Yeah. You got to have those people. Well, you got to have those people. I have some of those people, yeah. We have to have those people. And so, yes, today. Yeah. You got to have those people. Well, you got to have those people. I have some of those people, yeah. We have to have those people. Yeah. And so, yes, today I feel the presence of God. Oh, good.

And whether you acknowledge God for yourself or not, I feel it in you. Yeah. Because this is a beautifully, I see you so clearly. So. Yeah. They are here. Yeah. I can accept that. clearly. Yeah. So. Yeah. They are here. Yeah. I can accept that.

Okay. Yeah. Yeah. But like, but I guess the point that I was trying to make is that even if it's, it comes and goes, you know, the part of your brain, like if you don't feel the light of God on a given day, you know, it's still there somewhere. It's there. Right.

So, but the thing about humans is the amount of leeway you have to give them in God's world to. That's a whole other episode, man. That's a whole, that's of a different color. Right? But like, let's talk about some of the stuff that, like, the other stuff on the record. Because, I mean, you address, you know, and I don't know what kind of church this church is. Middle church. It's exactly what you think it is.

All-inclusive. Yeah. You know, everybody's okay in God's eyes. Yeah. No one's getting judged here. No. Right. And all the music is about that.

Yes. I mean, you specifically mentioned, you know, LBGTQ, all, everybody. Yeah. And is that something you had to wrestle with personally? No. Never. I always knew God was. Yeah. And you knew that he didn't judge

you. I knew that they. They. Okay, yeah, right, okay. God is trans. Sure. Yeah, at the very least at the very least like to call him a he yeah it's like so like this is a little boring to have it yeah yeah no i get it though and i i but we have to give it its its moment and not drive past it. Okay. Because it's important. Yeah, yeah. And it was something that I had to readjust my, and I still say he. Yeah.

But like, when I do it, I go, like, why would you make God so small? Like, oh my God. Right. God is only as expansive in our lives as we avail ourselves to God being. So, I don't want to be small. Right. God is only as expansive in our lives as we avail ourselves to God being. So I don't want to be small. Right. So, okay. So you always knew who God was.

Yeah. I just didn't know how vast God was. Right. So in terms of like there was never a struggle with your identity in the church. No. Yeah. That's what other folks had a problem. Not me.

Yeah. Yeah. It was y'all motherfuckers. I knew who I was worshiping. I knew who I was praising. I knew who I was praying to. Yeah. I was questioning who y'all were talking to.

Right. Yeah. Because it wasn't the same being. Yeah. Yeah. Because you are presenting him as limiting. Yes. They as limiting. Yes. Yeah. being. Yeah, yeah. Because you are presenting him as limiting. Yes. They as limiting.

Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. How could that be? How could that be? Right. If our cells are replenishing right here, right now. Yeah. Trying to, if our bodies, the natural set point of our bodies is wanting to heal itself.

Yes. set point of our bodies is wanting to heal itself. Yes. If God can be a mother, a father, a sister, a brother, cats, a dog, the air, whatever. Yeah. If God is a shapeshifter, then God is transforming. If God is transforming, then energy is transmuting. If energy is transmuting, then God is trans.

You do the math. It's so easy. It's so easy. Don't get caught up in the language. Jesus. Do you, do you, are you a minister? Sure. Yeah.

Why do you ask? I was just wondering. I mean, do you preach? No, but sure. Yeah. No, I mean, but like, I mean, like get in front of the church. Yeah. Well, I think, again, the language. Mm.

Yeah. Well, I think, again, the language. My church does not look like the normal construct that you would assign to that word. Yeah, yeah. And my preaching does not sound like what you would assign to that word and where I would stand to do it. Right, right. But aren't we doing it right now? Yes. You do it every time you drop a podcast, brother.

I know, I know, I know. Why are you, you were just rejecting yourself left and right. I know, dude. It's one of those times, man. And that's okay. Have you ever been there? Oh, all the time. All the time.

Well, I'll tell you honestly, it's because I just did, you know, I just did a special. I spent two years doing the material, hour and a half, and now it's done. So I'm in that zone of post thing. Okay. Right? So when you're in the post thing thing, you're sort of like, is there another thing? What is the next thing? Okay.

Where's my craft? Where's my expression? What am I going to talk about? Where's my creativity? And it's very easy to feel uh uh aggravated and lost or bored i do understand yeah i gotta tell you this though i know that you know better um yeah what what did you you don't have to tell me about that you you tell me as much or as little as you can about without having released the thing it's out oh. Oh. Yeah. Well, pardon me, where can I watch it?

HBO. Oh, fierce. Okay. All right. It's called From Bleak to Dark. Oh, dear God. Jesus Christ, man. That is hysterical.

Okay, but look, I imagine you talked about life. Sure. I talked about death a lot. Great. Yeah. So then, I guess what do we have to do to build up some more material? Well, that's the thing. It's like, there comes a point.

The great thing about engaging in a musical or a theater production or even a TV show is that you can get out of yourself in a way because you're doing another person. Or you're working with someone else. Do you want to do a Broadway show? I do. Well, then let's do it. Do you want to do a Broadway show? I do. Well, then let's do it. Okay. What the fuck is the problem?

I don't know. I'll work on it. I'll figure it out. What do you want to do? I may be song and dance, but I don't do it. Are you being serious? I don't do any of that. I play guitar, but I'd like to do something new.

Okay. Tell your people. All right. All right. I'll tell them alright I'll tell them I'll tell them talk to your theater agent

or whatever but here's the here's the issue I'm talking about is that you know when you talk about life and death

and the real shit right which you do you know and here we're talking about it and you live it every day and I talk about that on stage it's like it gets to a point

where you're like I think I've said it all. I understand. Yeah. That just sounds like fatigue. Yeah I think that's right. Thank God. Yeah. Right. So when when you leave the south to go to New York

you knew that music was it right? Yeah I think I thought it is gonna or I know that I thought I was gonna move to New York to be a pop music writer or a composer of some sort sure um but that didn't quite work out or we did one record right that I record in 2006 that seemed like a pop record. That was a pop record. But I thought I was going to do it to grand fanfare. Yeah. And it just wasn't it. And so I just...

How did you realize that? The record didn't sell? The record didn't sell. No one cared. Yeah. But I knew, though, that I was a fantastic composer. Yeah. Yeah.

So perhaps, in hindsight, the lesson was refining how I write because I'm about to have a world premiere of a musical that I wrote. Really? Where? At the Alliance Theater in Atlanta, Georgia in spring 2024. What's the book about? The musical is called The Preacher's Wife. It's based on the movie, the 97 movie with Whitney Houston and Denzel Washington. Okay. And I think it's pretty fucking fantastic.

And I will say, even, and I can honestly say, barring how it is consumed or received, it has raised me in a way that I did not anticipate. And I'm a little sad to watch it be its own complete thing in the world. That's what I'm not anticipate. And I'm a little sad to watch it be its own complete thing in the world. That's what I'm talking about. When you finish the work. Wow. Well, yes. Yeah, but not, yeah.

But I don't feel like what I'm about to do now. I just feel like, oh, well, what am I about to do now? Yeah, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because it showed you new parts of your talent. Yes. And as I wrote it and wrote, you know, the different characters' journeys and trajectories and such,

some kind of way, they would all reflect exactly what I was going through. And so I just sort of, they taught me so much about how to be human, these fictional characters. It's just, it is probably the most satisfying relationship I've ever had where I've had full reciprocity. It is the closest I've ever come to experiencing God in the flesh. Writing that show. Wow. No relationship, no man, no nothing.

Not my mom, not my grandmother, that thing. Right. And I want that thing all the time. I want to feel that all the time. How do you think you can do that? Is it a matter of focus? Sure. It's not singularly a matter of focus.

Um, I will say I did not give myself the idea to write that. I availed myself. Someone pitched it? No. They gave it to me. Okay. Yeah. I really believe that.

Yeah. And so I'm waiting for possession. The next thing. Yeah. Sure. I'm waiting to be so obsessed with. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's nice that you can look at obsession as God-given as opposed to just the opposite.

No. What else is it? Avoidance of, you know, like when I get obsessed, it's sort of like sometimes like, you know, if I'm doing something that I'm so absorbed in that when I stop doing it, I'm like, oh, I'm back to me. I guess what that makes – you're right. Instead of like – of course, my brain would think I'm avoiding myself. But, you know – Aren't you experiencing yourself?

Yes. Yeah. It's a gift. It is a gift. Right. Okay. And I said possession. Possession.

No, I know. Okay. Yeah. To be – Obsessed. Obsessed. Yes. Inspired. No, I know. Okay. Yeah. To be. Obsessed. Yes. Inspired. Yeah.

Obsessively inspired. Yeah. And so have you gone through the whole process? Have you had people singing the thing? Is it staged? Is it ready to go? Oh, we've gone through all the workshops. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's about to be a thing.

How great is that experience, the workshop things? It was lovely. And hard. Yeah. And collaborating is that experience? The workshop things. It was lovely. And hard. Yeah. And collaborating is awful and beautiful. And I'd be wanting to like mass murder everybody.

But also learn some beautiful lessons and watch some people stand up to me who, you know, the director, the book writer, and really go,

you know, because at some point it becomes all of ours and not just mine. Sure. And that's just a lovely, another beautiful lesson. It taught me about trust and trial and error and just so many wonderful things that I wrestle with daily that I have to fine tune daily. There is no, oh, I've learned it.

That is for sure. And was there yelling? Yeah. Fuck yeah. Sometimes you gotta yell. And do you look at the Little Mermaid? Mm-hmm.

Which, my mermaid? Yeah, uh-huh. Do you see that as the big break? Was that the thing? Sure. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I guess the big break would be my Broadway debut. Which was?

Which was a show called Good Vibrations. Yes. The vibrations were not so good. But I guess I'm thinking of the thing that introduced you to the world. Sure. That had the most eyeballs. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Theatrically, that would be correct. Yeah, yeah.

Yeah. I feel like you would vibe well in New York. I've been there. You've ever lived there? Yeah, I have. Why'd you leave? Oh man. So like, I guess I was there from like 89 to, you know, I was there for a couple of years, 89, 92. Then I was in San Francisco back and forth and then, you know, back in New York. And I don't know, I was living in Queens. I think I came out here on a deal for a TV show. It was right in.

I was with a woman. It was 2002. It was after 9-11. She was freaked out. And she wanted to get out. And I had a deal. So I was like, fuck it. Let's go.

OK. But I've been back at different points back and forth. I love it. I love New York. I think you got to do a play. I do too, dude. I'm being serious. Me too.

I've been talking about it for weeks. You're being serious? Yes. I've been publicly talking about it. Almost putting it out into the universe. Not a musical per se, but a play. No, I know what you're talking about. Because what I've been talking about is that I've done some roles.

I did Jerry in Respect, and I did Two Leslie, and I've done some stuff. And the more I act, it's hard for me to focus on finding it satisfying when you do so little of it at a time. Like you're in the trailer for nine hours, you're on set for ten minutes, and then you're back in the game. I like when I'm in it, but then I thought, well, I could be in it for 10 minutes and then you're back in the game like like i like you know when i'm in it but then i thought like well i could be in it for like an hour and a half if i was on a stage play that's true that's true you do know that's too too those that's not going to be the way you are processing satisfaction yeah it's not going to be the same for both those mediums right okay right i i'm i the way you just set it up

that sounded like i'll be like that the part that what's really uh giving me the satisfaction is being engaged in the thing yeah that's yeah eventually plays get tedious oh my god are you kidding me motherfucker it's exhausting yeah okay all right right i'm only gonna i'm gonna like it for a week yeah peace out absolutely that's why do you think most well yeah yeah no but i i too want to get back to it and i and i say that like you know looking at myself like sir are you you sure but i am sure yeah and it is that fatigue and that exhaustion I think is where the truth lies right

yes definitely to figure out if in fact we're bored or lost yes yeah because with that fatigue

and exhaustion you know if you come out of it feeling almost you know pure in some weird way

or relaxed relaxed refined yeah like can I do this again yeah is that why you sort of started to focus you know, pure in some weird way or relaxed. Relaxed, refined. Yeah. Like, can I do this again? Yeah. Is that why you sort of started to focus more

on film and television? Is fatigue from musicals? Because you had a big run there for a while. I knew that there was a call, a different call for me. I didn't know how I was going to get there

because I didn't have no credits and didn't nobody care. Where, after what? After Guys and Dolls. Really? And I fell into a deep depression. Miserable. Les Miserables.

No shit. Yeah, it's true. But you were kind of like a known talent. Yeah, but I was also kind of like the big black woman that stops the show. Oh, right. That's what I call it. Because they didn't want me to do anything else, just come out and holler a couple things. And hit that note?

Yep. And then go backstage. I'm like, well, that ain't it. Yeah. And, you know. How long did the depression go for? Probably until a couple weeks ago. It might come back tomorrow?

It might come back tomorrow. But I know the truth, though. Oh, yeah. I know the truth. Yeah, what is it? The truth is those, the appearance of darkness is just that. Okay. Only light is real.

Okay. All right. I know the truth i just you know sometimes it's sometimes it's hard to make real that truth or or to find it but like that's the only real truth it has to be right it has to be otherwise get me out of here right beam me up scotty yeah it. Yeah. That's a terrible, it's a horrible process to get to that realization, right? Because you realize

in those darkness that you, I've got a choice. Yeah. If you're one of those people. Yeah. Where you're like, I got a choice. And then you really got to process that choice.

Yeah. And then you're sort of like, well, I like to eat things. But what if right and then you're sort of like well i like to eat things but what if what if right now yeah you what you're experiencing and while you've called it you know sort of jokingly many things in the last 45 minutes or whatever yeah what if it's just your morning the the project being over like what if what could be morning a lot of stuff like you know sure i don't know the full breadth of what.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, no, I think that's right. You know, if you want to frame things

as mourning or, or if you want to be more clinical, you can call it PTSD. Okay. Right? I mean. But why does that make you.

Why do I got to beat myself up in the middle of that? Well, what I'm going to say is, what, what, why are you unable to experience

just that, the PTSD, without it being in reference to what lies ahead? Or who I am. Like, why can't I compartmentalize and say, look, this is natural. And I ask the question like knowing the answer.

Yeah, yeah. I get it. Like A plus B, this is why you're here. Yeah. Yeah, so accept that and wait it out as opposed to, you know, just throw gasoline on it and set it on fire. Oh, like I feel like this, I must be the worst person in the world. Why am I even bothering with everything? Okay.

It's a bad habit. I guess something feels like home. No, I get it. Yeah? I don't want that for us. Okay. I don't either. Okay.

I feel better now. Like, I made a choice. You really? Yeah. Okay. You? Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, I made a choice to, you know, to talk about, because, like, you know, I talk to people, you know, a lot. This is what I do, you know, and, you know, different people, I take different approaches. But like, you know, because of how I felt this morning, I said, look, I'm going to talk to Titus about faith. Fuck it. I made that choice this morning because I didn't feel great. And I listened to some gospel music. Did you not want to talk about that?

No, I didn't know what I was going to talk about. Okay, well, I love that. I do. I really do. I'm so here for it. I mean, if I knew what I was going to talk about, I wouldn't want to do this anymore. Oh.

Right? Like, I got to have an idea. You know, like, so I knew a few things. I was like, we're in a movie together. He sings. He's, you know, he's a man of faith. You know, he's a good actor. Like, you know, I knew all these things,

but I'm like, well, you know, part of how I do this is like, well, how can I make this about me? Well, so... That's really funny. But let me ask you though, isn't what you just described about how you do this podcast, isn't that how you live your entire life? Yes, it is.

It is. So then what's the problem? The problem is I think like if I'm like recently I've been like sort of like, well, you know, if you live in the moment, but you eat it the moment, if you're feeding on the moment. Okay. Like, you know, like a lot of times, I'm like, I don't even know what happened. Did I experience it? It's sort of like you were saying before,

like this conversation, when you leave, was it real? There's a part of me that thinks like, shouldn't I be more disciplined? Shouldn't I have some distance from these moments? You know what I mean? Like at the end of the day, am I just- You feel the way you feel, not so much now, but maybe before we walk in here,

you feel that more often than not on a daily basis? No, I'm just thinking about it recently because I'm sitting around a lot and I'm trying to write new material. You know, I'm trying to figure it out. Well, then go do something. I am. I perform every night. You know, I do it.

But, like, I'm just working through it, you know? Okay. Because, like, today I was thinking, what I think today, like, after today I was thinking, is this normal? After Einstein came up with the theory of relativity, was you sort of like, no, no, I'm going to do no. No, yeah, I get it.

Well, no, I feel like that often too. You get what I mean? It's like, what's going on, Albert? No, I'm kicking around some numbers and some letters, but nothing's really... That's really funny. I can't wait to watch your special that's right well i think you'll like this special because it you know it deals with um like it's like it deals a lot there's about a third of its culture and then another third of it's talking i lost my partner uh during covet she passed away and like it was reckoning

with with grief and with loss and with loss it was unexpected so like i it took me a year and a half to kind of figure out a way to make that into uh acceptable comedy i am so sorry thank you yeah it's a few years ago and like you, you know, it's heavy, man. Yeah. Yeah. I know. Yeah. Yeah.

And that's a whole other component. Am I done with that? You're never done with that. No. Right? But, and I've been singing too. Let me hear it. No, no.

It's very, it makes me very nervous. But I've been. I see this guitar. Well, no, I go out with some guys and I do some singing. I'm trying to do that. I was always afraid of it. So I've started to do that. I'm taking chances. I feel you.

I'm taking some chances too. Yeah. Some big ones. With the writing of the- To me, that's not taking a chance. What do you say? It'll be people who decide to come because they see my name. That's them taking a chance.

Well, how are you taking chances? I'm taking chances. I'm just out of a 10-year relationship. Oh, wow. And in my therapy and going to bars and trying to meet normal people. In the real world? In the real world. Not on your phone?

That's good. Not on my phone. And what else am i taking chances doing being more honest yeah you know that's tough right um being honest about how i feel about my daddy yeah you know yeah be honest about how i feel about my mom yeah just all sorts of things but it feels good though, though. It doesn't, it's not, there's some really, there's some moments of extreme discomfort. I tell you what. Yeah. People make me extremely uncomfortable.

I don't, like last night we had this four-year consideration event or whatever. Oh, yeah. I would have rather been anywhere else. Yeah. Do you understand, though? Yeah. have been anywhere else yeah yeah do you understand though like to to choosing to be on stage uh-huh in as someone else yeah that is different i understand that attention that is not me being the center of attention. Mm-hmm. Right? Yeah. Choosing to be in a movie.

Yeah. People watching it. Yeah. Whenever they watch it. Yeah. I understand that attention. Yeah. But going to promote something

or going like on a press tour. Yeah. Where I have to talk about my process or... Yeah, yeah. That just sounds like, well, why don't you come and take a bath with me? Yeah, yeah. Let me just wag my dick in your face

and let's kiss. So when you said that yesterday at the event, it didn't go over so well. But it makes me want to run in the other direction. And here's where, circling back to that thing I was talking about at the beginning, where I had to sit through trying to undo how people. Yeah, have boxed you in. Yeah. trying to undo how people have boxed you in. Everyone thinks that I want, that I walk in,

not only wanting, needing and expecting that attention. Yeah. And it's the opposite. Yeah, I get it. I would be fine if you didn't say anything to Titus. Right. Forus. Right. For real. Yeah.

Well, I'm an old child. I don't know how it was me to contend with. Yeah. You know, I didn't have to, maybe there's some, I'm sure there's some

cognitive development that didn't quite reach its full maturation process. Especially, particularly when I was molested or when grandma passed away like lots of me probably stopped but it doesn't change that receiving that type of

i feel obliged to do it right because actually of course we are yeah but like it's something in me it's just like oh oh, let me – what do you need? How do I – But do you find yourself doing that? Because like the few things I saw you engaging that I think that you do it in the same way I do it. That like you're going to – whoever is asking you those shallow questions, you're going to immediately just by nature of who we are or who I am anyways, you can throw them a little off kilter and they're going to be like, oh. Well, then you find your space. Well, I tell you, the way I've learned to do what you just described is just to be completely

honest. And people are, it's so hilarious how rarely people are prepared for honesty. Of course. Also, though, I don't improv. I'm not a comedian. Yeah. I'm an actor. Yeah. And so I don't know how to give you those. Go ahead.

But I think that's an interesting point that you made about the nature of this game of promotion and poking and clickbait is that when they do it that like, you know, when you do, when they do do it to you and you, you react, then because of the nature of how that is used as content, then you get characterized a certain way. And it's sort of like, I had a bad 12 seconds. Right. Right.

Or a good 12 seconds. Sure. Of clarity. Yes. It was like that Hugh Grant thing on the carpet where they, everyone went after poor Hugh and it's like, he was correct. Sure. Of clarity. Yes. It was like that Hugh Grant thing on the carpet where everyone went after poor Hugh and it's like, he was correct. Yeah. I, yeah.

Yeah. Right? I'm with you on that one. So it's very difficult when you're a thoughtful guy who processes things, you listen, you're not going to be told what you're thinking. No, no. Right. So I just know that from talking to you now, is that when you're thinking. No, no. Right. So like, I just know that from talking to you now is that, you know,

when you're dealing with somebody who's doing a junket interview who's got four questions and they're expecting you to do your part and do your pat answers that you've put together

and you put them on, you know, you put them into a position where they don't know how to engage, right? It's like,

then they're not doing their fucking job. And it's like, it's hard for people their fucking job. And, and it's like, it's hard for people that, that, that are, you know, in the moment and real and don't like most people just put together the same

fucking answers. They're going to use them everywhere. Yeah. I can't do that. I envy that. Part of me wishes I could do that. You have to, then you have to make it a role then.

Yeah. Huh. But then it's just boring. Well, it's still boring. Even if I'm real. Yeah. But then it's just boring. Well, it's still boring, even if I'm real. Yeah, I know. Like, the last couple rounds of questioning from, but I don't consider you presto. Right. Like.

No, no, I know. Because you're both on this side and that side. Right. And you are provocative in a way that is not off-putting. Yeah. It's just thoughtful. Yeah. But, yeah, I guess you're right.

It would be boring. I don't know. No, I get it. You know, like, it's tedious. But then when you find yourself falling into the pattern, especially if you're doing these things with people that are in the cast and, you know, they're telling that same story and maybe you'll chime in the only problem i have sometimes is i'm if i'm on a panel and everybody's being boring i gotta i gotta kick in man it's funny i on a panel am happy to like i'm

on the i'm gonna catch what keegan yeah and cecily funny oh live wire i mean like they just go off on these tangents and jane is good at it too yeah um and i'm happy to fade into the background and i really in my heart really mean it yeah um but i find that like the whoever the the moderator is makes their way over to me almost to check in and see if I'm okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like, girl, I'm good. Not to be rude. Not to be rude.

Right, right, right. But I'm great. Yeah, yeah. You know? Yeah, yeah. You keep going. Keep going. All right, man.

Well, you know, it was certainly great talking to you. Likewise. This is wonderful. Yeah, it was good. I feel better. I love that. To you? Are you being serious. I love that. Do you? Are you being serious?

Yes. Okay. Are you kidding? I was like, you know, every time I do this, you know, I don't know what's going to happen, right? And usually it works out. Yeah, yeah. Do you know what I mean? Yeah.

But, brother, I need you to, like, rely on that a little more. Okay. And this is for me, too. Yeah. Usually it works out. works out because that is just who you are like i resent the phrase rest on your laurels sure because a good portion of what we're able to do with our eyes closed is laureling yeah so yeah everybody and everything fuck off yeah and you go out there and be the wizard that you are,

conjuring spells without having to think about it. Okay. Just relax. You too. I will. Usually it works out. We'll keep hold of that. Unfortunately, I think that a lot of my creativity comes from thinking it won't.

Okay. Does that make sense? Well, visit it, but don't live there. I'm not going to live there. And I'm looking forward to... So what's the plan for the preacher's wife? Well, I'm told... Spring 24 is the world premiere,

and then I'm told we will go to Broadway in the fall. So exciting. But, you know, let's just focus on spring 24. Okay. It's very exciting. It is exciting. Congratulations on that.

Thank you. And Schmigadoon. Yes, watch it. I will. All right. Okay, take a breath, people. Take a breath. Schmigadoon is on Apple TV+.

Also, Titus and Jane Krakowski will be performing a new show in New York City for three nights only. It's called Center of the Universe, and it's playing from Thursday, June 15th through Saturday, June 17th at Audible's Minetta Lane Theater. Yeah, okay. Hang out for a second. Every veteran has a second. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls. Yes, we can deliver that.

Uber Eats. Get almost almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. To hear more about the movie Respect that Titus and I were in, you can listen to the episodes with Jennifer Hudson. That's episode 1285.

The movie's director, Liesl Tommy, episode 1254. And Marlon Wayans. That's always fun. On episode 1253. All right, so we're on set. Oh, no. Yeah. And we're filming a scene in the movie.

Yeah. And there's a guy who has a role. Yeah. He's not talking, though. He's not talking. And there's a guy who has a role. Yeah. He's not talking, though. He's not talking. But he's an important character. He's an engineer. Right.

Yeah. And so, he's doing his stuff and, you know, it's his, it is before his take. Now he's rehearsing. Yeah. The camera's on other people.

Yeah. But this guy is doing all kind of Stuff He's like you know Pencils Pencil Writing things Writing

Changing notes Yeah yeah yeah Walking over to the band members And telling them What Pointing What key to play in Yeah yeah

And he grabs the guy's guitar And plucks in a couple Tunes his guitar Yeah he's got a lot A lot of business Mark Turns over to me And he goes This's got a lot of business. Mark turns over to me, and he goes, this guy got a lot of business, huh? And he says this to me while we're filming, and I look over, and I'm watching this guy,

and for the rest of the day i can't unsee it i fucking can't unsee it because then it seems like he gets more more he's gonna make it interesting i mean i understand it all of those are available for free right now in whatever podcast app you're using and at wtf pod.com. If you want all WTF episodes ad free sign up for WTF plus, just click on the link in the episode description or go to WTF pod.com and click on WTF plus. All right. Okay. Here's a little guitar that I didn't sweat. I didn't sweat this too much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. boomer lives monkey and lafonda cat angels everywhere