WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1437 - Smokey Robinson

Episode Date: May 22, 2023

Smokey Robinson just released his 26th studio album, but he’s been writing songs since the age of six. Smokey talks with Marc about his lifelong friendships with Aretha Franklin, Diana Ross and Berry Gordy, the formation of The Miracles, the rise of Motown Records, the process of writing songs for other artists, creating The Tears of a Clown with Stevie Wonder, the brilliance of Marvin Gaye, and the five year period Smokey felt his life was out of control. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Lock the gates! Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck, buddies? What the fuck, nicks? What's happening? I'm Marc Maron. This is my podcast. WTF has been since the beginning, since 2009. Established 2009 WTF with Mark Maron. So this is exciting. Today, you know, these things happen.

I don't know they're going to happen, but they happened, you know, out of nowhere. And this happened pretty quick. I get a call or I get a text, I get an email, I get a dispatch from a producer, Brendan McDonald, who got a dispatch from a central talent booking. And all of a sudden it's like, you want to do Smokey Robinson next week or in a couple of days or tomorrow. I can't remember how quick it happened, but it happened pretty quick. And I'm like, Smokey Robinson? Of course I want to talk to Smokey Robinson. Smokey Robinson of the miracles of Smokey Robinson and the miracles.

Smokey Robinson, the former vice president of Motown Records. Smokey Robinson, one of the greatest songwriters of all time who wrote one of my favorite all-time songs ever, if not my favorite song. That Smokey Robinson, the Smokey Robinson that just released his 26th studio album called GASM's. All right, you can't always win with the titles. You know, you make choices, but it's called GASM's solid Smokey music.

I'll tell you that right now. This guy's still fucking 100% got it. He wrote Tears of a Clown, Tracks of My Tears. Those two right there. The English beats version of Tears of a Clown is one of my all-time favorite songs. I listen to it a lot. I love it.

I love the sax on it. I love the pace of it. I love the pace of it. I love the way that guy sings it. I just love the English beats version of Tears of a Clown. Bam, bam, bam, ba-da-lee-bee-ba-ba-ba-dum, dum-dum, ba-da-lee-da-doo-doo-doo sax. Anyway, there's something about that song. Obviously, I don't want it to be too obvious. You know, I'm a fucking comedian. But I don't know. It's just the beauty of that song.

The beauty of Tracks of My Tears. It's a pretty long list of amazing Smokey Robinson songs. But I would say that Tears of a Clown is almost genetically part of me at this point. But, you know, I never know what to expect from these cats. He's in his 80s, and I'll tell you, man, he showed up looking spiffy, looking fucking sharp, and he just was so quick and ready to talk and, you know, charming. It's fucking Smokey Robinson.

I talked to Smokey Robinson on the show. It's crazy, man. In other news, my black eye and the hole in my face and the scratches on my nose are coming along. They're healing okay. It's coming along all right. So listen, I had a pretty intense few days, man. So I get an offer to be in a movie. It's a movie about the order, which was a white supremacist group that was one of the early ones. It's not like historical, like the KKK, but it was really one of the early kind of domestic terrorist organizations. It started up in Washington in the early 80s, 83, 84. It was a combination of different types

of militia guys, but this was real domestic terrorism, Nazi shit. They were driven by anti-Semitic literature. And, well, anyway, I'm not going to give you the whole history of the order, but Jude Law's company is doing a movie called The Order. And I read the script. And, you know, he's playing the investigator who eventually broke the case. And the leader of the order was killed in a shootout. But what some of you may know the order for or know what they did, one of the crimes that they did,

was that they assassinated a talk radio show personality named Alan Berg in 1984. This was like really before talk radio was a big thing. And he was sort of a lefty talk radio guy, just a provocateur, really. Eric Boghossian sort of found the seeds of talk radio, the play that he wrote in the Allenberg murder. I don't believe he's playing Allenberg per se. Allenberg has very specific type of style. There's not a lot of him out there recorded.

But I had known the story and I remember reading about it at some point in time, but not really knowing the full scope of it. So I was offered the role of Alan Berg. And it's really only a few scenes. It's him on the mic. There's some of his rants being played in the cars of some of these Nazis, some of the guys that killed him. There's some footage of him, yeah, in the studio, as I said, and him in a diner, then him driving home, and then him being assassinated in his driveway with a machine gun. But I was offered this role role and I didn't see how anybody else could play the role. I thought that I it was destiny that I have to play this role. Even if it's a small part, it's a

pivotal part. This was the major crime that this group of people was indicted for. And also to be honest with you, having done Lefty Talk Radio and having been a comic who talks about things the way I talk about them, the threat or the fear of the threat of me being,

you know, the victim of violence because of, you know, what I say and how I say it has always sort of been in my mind. Then again, I, you know, look, I'm a paranoid person, but when I was on the radio, it was always sort of hanging there given the nature of our country and I'm being a public person. And I remember having the guy from some website at the time, because it wasn't as, nothing was as fluid in terms of social media back then in 2004 or whatever. But we had the guy who created like a Jew watch website that was a list of all the Jews in show business. So my angle was, let's get him on. He was a Nazi. My angle was, let's get him on and try to talk him into how amazing the list is and that it shows that Jews are pretty amazing and that like, I think he's framing it wrong. It backfired, you know, they're creepy. It's all creepy. But nonetheless, my point is there was

always a fear in my mind of being the victim of violence for being a public facing Jew with, with lefty sort of political and progressive ideas and, and, and also having a big mouth. political and progressive ideas and also having a big mouth. I always felt afraid in some ways and still do to a degree. So when the offer came to play Allen Berg and specifically Allen Berg being slaughtered in his driveway, I had to do it. I didn't see any way not to do it. It felt like, well, this is, I wouldn't say it's some sort of serendipitous or why wouldn't I be the guy to play that? But also it's a way for me to embody and live out probably my biggest fear or certainly in the top three. And also to get into the mindset of what that might've been like, what that might've felt like, what, you know, the, the sort of weird, quiet event of being killed by a gunman at night in your driveway out of nowhere. there's no war, there's no fight,

there's no expecting it, but just this very strangely horrific, intimate act of getting out of your car and being shot for what you believe in your driveway by anti-government terrorist organization who identify as Nazis and you're a Jew in America. So I was up in Calgary over the weekend for a few days and we primarily just shot, we just did the scene

where Berg is assassinated for his beliefs as a media personality in America in 1984. Imagine, you know, this is the kernel of it. And now it's, you know, it is, it has momentum in our culture as a, as a legitimized point of view within the Republican party. The people that killed this guy in his driveway. Some of the same people. Many of the groups that were affiliated with the order still function today. Aryan Nations, Ku Klux Klan, National Alliance.

So it was important to do. It might be an important movie. I don't know. When I got there to Calgary, I had to... It's weird because I grew out my beard, I grew out my hair, and I was able to sort of do most of his look, because he's a fairly hairy guy, without doing much. Cutting some bangs, combing my hair differently, taking

my glasses off. And we did still shots for, it would have been press shot of him for the bulletin board of the order in their bunker or in their clubhouse. And when I got there, they were doing some sort of rally. So they had a couple of hundred of extras, all different varieties of white supremacists and Nazis kind of hanging around. And that realization that this is fictional, but this is real. This is down the street shit now. This is out in public shit now. And they killed a guy because he was a jew and pushed back in his driveway in 1984 in denver colorado they drove down there and you know cut him in half

with bullets and back then it was like holy shit that's fucking crazy but if shit if this shit were to happen tomorrow and it does happen but not to media personalities just to people sitting in houses of worship slaughtered by organized white supremacists, domestic terrorists, killing Jews because they're Jews. It's happened a few times the last few years. And it's still kind of like, doesn't quite register for some reason that this is an organized front. So all that, I'm just saying that, you know, I had to get into this guy's world. I had to drive this little VW Beetle, had to walk out of a radio station, and I had to pull up to a house and get rigged with squibs, which I'd never done before as an actor,

and, you know, do that thing. And it was an interesting shot, the shot of me being shot, having those blood packs blow up out my back, shot in the front, blown out the back. Did it in a couple takes. Dropped into a puddle of blood. Was shot in a puddle of blood. Sticky blood.

Laying there. Cigarette dangling out of my hand. In the puddle of blood. Eyes open. I got a still of me laying in a puddle of blood as Allenberg. And I go back in a few weeks to do the talking, to do some of the on-the-mic work that he did. And I think they're going to thread some of that through the movie.

But I had to do it. I had to do it. I didn't see how anyone else could do it or should do it. And to step into that event and to realize that that event does, can and will and does happen again and again. There was just less momentum behind it then. But now there's a lot of organized momentum. And it's very scary.

It's an important movie. I don't know if it'll resonate in the way that it resonated with me or I don't know if it'll stand up to what's happening in the world today. But to play a guy, an American guy, who spoke his mind

on a radio program in Denver, not even a national radio program, and was mowed down in his driveway by Nazis, by domestic terrorists, by white supremacists in America in 1984. But it's important to know that it's bigger, it's more organized, But it's important to know that it's bigger, it's more organized, and it's more supported now than it was in 1984. celebrating people who massacre people in the street for reasons they think are appropriate,

who kill people on subways for reasons they think are appropriate, who legitimize guns of all kinds in the hands of almost anybody. I don't know, man. Not great, but it was an honor to play this guy and I got to go back up in a few weeks and finish that. So to change gears, I enjoyed being in Calgary for a couple of days. I hadn't been there in a long time. I went there years ago to do standup, I think at a place called the Blackfoot Inn. And like, I didn't have a lot of time and I, and I watched a few movies. Yeah. I always get a little

anxious when I'm waiting to be in a film. And, um, you know, I had a lot of time in the room and I had, I found some vegan restaurants. I go to supermarkets and I really had to think about what do I do when I go to other places? I wander around, I go food shopping and I look for things to eat. That's about it. And I watched, uh, I watched watched i watched once upon a time in in hollywood again for the fourth time still amazing keeps giving i watched heat again beautiful and uh and i i did a little reading but also like it's weird you go to some places and and sadly there are fire there's a lot of forest fires going on i guess in alber Alberta. And the wind is blowing it into Calgary. And so, like, I got up there and I was like, oh, I know what this is.

It was like L.A. a couple years ago. And just over and over again down here in California, just that orange smoke hanging in the air. Just apocalyptic vibe. But the day we shot was clear and the weather was pretty good. And there's magpies everywhere. I was able to identify a magpie, a bird. I don't know how, but I knew it was a magpie. There's magpies and rabbits everywhere. They're like pigeons and rats in other cities. So it's prettier. There's just

rabbits jumping around downtown Calgary and there's magpies everywhere. And they're a pretty stunning bird. So that was the upside of going up there and playing Allen Berg and being slaughtered. It was the magpies and the rabbits and the very good Vietnamese vegan food I had and Korean vegan food. All right, so look, Smokey Robinson. When you really sit down and look at the catalog of Smokey Robinson as a songwriter and a performer,

it's kind of mind-blowing. It's a mind-blowing life. And he was fully engaged and fully entertaining and just a pleasure to talk to. You can get his new record, GASM's, wherever you get your music. And this is a conversation I had with Smokey Robinson. Get almost almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category.

And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Do you have a residency in Vegas? Yeah.

Oh, yeah? It's been going on for, what, years? No, no, no, no, no. No? I just started last year. Yeah? Yeah. Which hotel we're at?

At Venetian. And how's that? Wonderful. It's the most beautiful room in Las Vegas, man. I've played them all. Yeah. It's like Carnegie Hall in Las Vegas. And what's the work schedule when you do that?

I play Friday and Saturday. Yeah, two shows, one show, one show each night? Yeah, one show a night, yeah. It must be great. It is great, man. I love it because, you know, like I said, I live there too, so it's great. And you've got to, who do the musicians, where do they come from? Who do you bring in?

I have my own band, man. I have 18 people who travel with me. All the time? All the time. That's amazing. Yeah, sound, lighting, band, and singers. And on this record, on GASM's, because I couldn't find personnel listing, you know, but everybody sounds so good. I've talked to Thundercat, and I've talked to Anderson.Paak, and there just seems to be this very deep respect for you, but primarily for that sound from the 70s that you kind of invented.

I know you were on Anderson's record, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. In fact, I'm going to do a charity thing with him tomorrow evening before I leave town. Yeah. before I leave town. My main arranger and production person that I work with here in L.A. is a guy named David Garfield, who is a jazz musician himself. He makes records himself.

So he hires the musicians, basically, that we work with. But we have guys like Paul Jackson Jr. and Freddie Washington. Sounds great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We have guys that we work with. Yeah.

For years? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, the record sounds great. The title is a little, you know, when I saw the title, I was like, that's bold. And what does it mean?

Where is he going with this? And I thought when I listened to the new record, it seems like there's a little bit of your whole life on there in terms of sound. Well, yeah. You know what? That's what I went for. Yeah.

I went for some retro sound. Right. But with just like a little modern twist on it. Yeah. Well, I mean, some of it, though, like Beside You, I mean, you could have recorded that in 1960. Yeah. I wish I had. I do, man.

Besides, it was a song that I've always loved. A young lady, I had relatives in Chicago when I was growing up in Detroit. And one year, this lady who lived two doors down the street from me, her niece came to Detroit. And she was around our same age, and she was from Chicago. And the Flamingos were from Chicago, the singing group Flamingos. And they had a new record out called Beside You, and we were in the confectionery down on the corner from my house, and a bunch of us were in there, and she played it.

And I loved it from that moment on. And my only regret is the fact that I wanted Aretha to hear my version before she died, but I didn't get a chance to play it for her because I had recorded it, but I hadn't completed the vocal before she died. But she was in the store that day. You know, we grew up together, and that was one of our favorite songs. So you finally made it on the record.

Absolutely. That's a long time coming. Yeah, a long time coming. You know, I learned about you and Aretha because, did you see the movie Respect? Yes. I'm in it. Oh, okay. I'm Wexler.

Oh, all right, man. Very good. I played Jerry Wexler. I was almost in it. Yeah, did they want you to play? No, no, no, no, no. I'm a character. Oh, yeah.

You had a moment. There was a moment where you come in. Just a moment, too. In the last conversation that I had with Aretha Mann, ironically, we were talking and she called me and she said, baby, she said, who do you want to play you in my movie? I said, I don't care, babe. I mean, that's up to you. Whoever you choose. I mean, that's up to you, you know.

And that was the last conversation we had. We talked about that, you know. About that movie. And then in the movie, I had. We talked about that, you know. About that movie. And then in the movie, I had about that much time. My character had about that much time in the movie. And I just, I was kind of, you know, with my relationship with Aretha, how it was all of our lives. I mean, I've known her since I was eight years old, you know. Yeah.

And we grew up together and all that. I thought it was kind of slight. Well, yeah. I don't know the decisions that were made on that, you know, in terms of that script and that movie. How did you feel? Like, because, I mean, it sounds like everybody was sort of around the corner back then. Well, pretty much so, man.

You know, I've known Jennifer Hudson since she was on American Idol, really. Sure. And I thought she did a great job. But it seems like, you know, in that neighborhood you guys grew up in, that, you know, there was a lot of people around that went on to do amazing work. Oh, yeah, man, a whole lot of people, man.

I grew up four doors down the street, street from Diana Ross. Oh, like, how old were you? I have known Diana, she was probably, when they moved into the neighborhood, she was probably about eight years old. Oh, my God. You know?

That's crazy. And so I've known her since then. And Aretha, how far away was that house? Aretha, I've known Aretha since I was eight years old. Yeah. Her house was right around the corner. Yeah. So, you know, Diana was four doors down the street.

Aretha was right around the corner. Just by coincidence? I guess it must have been. Happenstance. Yeah. You know, because Aretha and her family moved in just before Diana and her family moved in. Yeah. But Aretha, I grew up in the hood, man.

I grew up in the ghetto. And right in the middle of the ghetto, man, there were these two blocks. Yeah. Now, I lived on a street called Belmont. And the next street adjacent to Belmont was a street called Boston Boulevard, and the street adjacent to that was a street called Arden Park.

And Boston Boulevard and Arden Park were right in the center of the hood, man, but they had these little brick archway things leading into the block. They had grass. They had little islands in between the two sides of the street where the affluent people lived.

So Aretha lived there. She lived on Boston Boulevard the next block over from me because her father had money. He was one of the biggest preachers in the country at the time. And so when they moved in, they moved over on Boston Boulevard and we'd go to their house. I know the first time I ever went there was when I Boston Boulevard. And, you know, we'd go to their house.

I know the first time I ever went there was when I met Aretha. And like I said, I was eight years old. One of my friends, a guy named Richard, brought Cecil Franklin, who was my lifelong friend after we met. Her brother? Her brother. Yeah. And we wanted to go see where they just moved into.

Right. And we'd go around there, and they got all this plush stuff in the house. And I hear a voice, man. Somebody's playing the piano. And I hear this little voice singing, Amazing Grace. Yeah. And, I mean, singing. I don't mean just like a kid singing.

I mean somebody singing, you know, and playing. Yeah, yeah. And so I go, and I look in this little room, man, where the piano is, and that's Aretha. She's six years old. She's sitting there playing the piano. Yeah. Damn near like she played it when she was grown. Yeah.

And singing damn near like that. Yeah. Singing Amazing Grace. Wow. And so that's when I first met her. But we were lifelong friends. And so. It's sort of stunning.

and so It's sort of stunning. And then one of the guys in the group that I sang with in the Miracles Pete the four tops live right down the street

from him and then right across the boulevard the temps lived right over there you know. Wow. So it was

yeah it was it was kind of cluttered with people who were who were blessed enough to be successful in this business man. Well I mean it's also interesting.

I mean, I imagine that, I mean, when did you start outside of the church or outside of hearing Aretha? I mean, when, I always imagined that there was a lot of music going on. Oh, yeah, there was all the, see, there were 50 groups in our neighborhood. Right. Yeah. And we used to sing wherever we thought there were some girls. Right. Was it, would they start with doo-wop? Oh, yeah. Was that what it was? Yeah. Street corner. Right. Yeah, and we used to sing wherever we thought there were some girls. Right.

Would they start with doo-wop? Oh, yeah. Was that what it was? Yeah. Street corner. Yeah. At the recreation center. Right.

At school. Right. Or on the playground. Yeah. You know, in the school programs. And, you know, like I said,

at the house parties. Yeah. Wherever we could find some girls. That's what the guys sang, man. Yeah. Yeah, the best group back in those days was the Four Tops. They were called the Four Aims. But if they were coming, the best you were going to get is second place's what the guy sang, man. Yeah, the best group back in those days was the Four Tops.

They were called the Four Ames. But if they were coming in the best, you were going to get a second place. You know? Yeah, yeah. So was it now, because I have to, before Motown,

before, you know, Gordy started, you know, figuring out a way to do that, how competitive was it? I mean, in terms of like just in the neighborhood around the singing groups. It was really competitive, man.

Like I said, we battled each other all neighborhood around the singing groups. It was really competitive, man. Like I said, we battled each other all the time. But it would be a thing. It would be a thing. Yeah. Even if we just met on the street corner. It would be a thing. Yes, indeed. And you met the Miracles.

How old were you when you met those guys? Well, Ron and Pete. I met Ron first. I met Ron when I was about 10 years old. Ron was a paperboy on my street, and he liked one of my nieces. My older sister raised me because my mom passed when I was 10. Oh, that's young. And my older sister come back in the house with her kids, and she raised me.

What about your old man? My dad was still alive. He lived upstairs. He had what you call a two-family flat. But anyway, yeah, so i was about 11 years old when i met ron who was one of the guys because he had a paper out he's like one of my nieces he started coming to the house and we started talking about singing we were interested and then pete ron introduced me to pete and so i met pete when i was about 12 and uh then uh one

of the guys in group bob bob and i were born on the exact same day in the exact same hospital in Detroit. And then I met him when we were 14. He started singing with the group. And then Claudette's brother, Claudette, was the girl in the group originally, my first wife. And she was in the group. And she got in the group because her brother was singing with us throughout junior high and high school. Then we graduated from high school. He went to the Army.

She came in and stepped in because we had an audition to go to. Was it all vocal, or did everyone play something? No, no, no. It was all vocal. Yeah, yeah. Oh, wow. Just doo-wopping, man. Yeah, that was it.

When did Marvin come in? Marvin came in, like I said, I grew up with Diana. So finally Diana moved away. Her family moved to a place called the Brewster Projects. And after we started Motown, we had been going for probably about a year or so. Oh, okay. Yeah, and we were going for about a year or so. And Diana called me and said, Smoke, I got this group I'm singing with. We call it the Prime Mets. And I want we were going for about a year or so, and Diana called me and said,

Smoke, I got this group I'm singing with. We're called the Prime Mets, and I want to come sing for you so you can sign us up on Motown. Okay. So I said, okay. So they came and sang for me. However, Barry would not let me sign them until they graduated from high school because we already had Stevie. And when Stevie traveled, he had to have tutors and bloop-de-bloop and all that stuff.

It was the law. You had to keep the kid in school. Exactly. So we had to wait until they graduated. But after they graduated, I took them over to Motown, you know. And Marvin, when they came to audition for me, Marvin was with them. The Miracles and I were getting ready to go and do

a few dates. And we didn't have a musician who traveled with us. And in those days, man, you'd run into some bands who had no idea what your music was or your songs. Oh, right. You couldn't just trust a band you got on the road. No, no, no, no, man. So I asked her if I could borrow Marvin to go out with us, and so she said yeah. And I wouldn't ask Marvin's mother because he was only 17 at the time.

Oh, that's crazy. And he started traveling with us. He never went back to them. From that point on, man, until Marvin passed away, when I saw Diana, whenever I would see her, she'd say, Hey, Smoke, where's my guitar player, man? Every time. That's great.

When do you start? Does your songwriting start before Motown, I guess, obviously? You know what, man? I've been trying to write songs all my life. Yeah. And poetry and stuff. All your life? All my life, since I was four and five years old. What is the first song that you wrote that you knew was a song?

Well, the first one that I wrote that I thought was a song, I was six years old. Oh, okay. And my auditorium teacher, we did stuff in the auditorium in elementary school, like have plays, and I was in the Junior Glee Club, and all that stuff like that. So we did a play about Uncle Remus.

Do you know Uncle Remus? Sure. So we did a play about Uncle Remus. And Uncle Remus was an old black folklore guy who told the kids how the animals got to be like they are. Why the zebra had stripes. Why the pig had a curatee. So I'm playing Uncle Remus in this play. So my teacher, she had written this little musical thing on the piano that she played at the beginning of the play and at the end of the play. Yeah. And while we were rehearsing one day, I went to her and I said, Mrs. Campbell, I said, can I write some words to the music you're playing? She said, okay, baby, go ahead.

So I wrote them and she liked them. So she let me sing it at the beginning of the play and at the end of the play. Man, my mom was in the audience. You would have thought that I was Cole Porter or George Gershwin or somebody like that, man. My mom was, ooh, you know. But I've been trying to write songs all my life, man. And when I met Barry, I met him quite by accident.

I tell everybody it was a God day because it was a God day because the day Jackie Wilson was my number one singing idol as a kid growing up. Jackie Wilson was from Detroit. And I had all of Jackie Wilson's records. Not only were Jackie Wilson's records, they were records that even if I buy some music today, I want to know who wrote it. And I was always interested in that.

So I had all of Jackie's records, all the songs written by Barry Gordy. Barry Gordy, Barry Gordy. So the day that we went to audition for Jackie Wilson's Records, all the songs written by Barry Gordy. Barry Gordy. Barry Gordy. So the day that we went to audition for Jackie Wilson's managers, they told us that we would never make it because there was a group of the Platters at that time. And they had a girl, Zola Taylor was in the group

and she sang with the group. And then Tony was the lead singer. He sang Hi. And so that was the makeup of our group. So they said, you'll never make it because we got the Platters. We don't need another platter. So I'm sorry. Just so happens that rather than singing songs that were currently popular by other artists, we sang five songs that I had written because we thought that if we did that,

then they would say, these kids got their own material. We'll definitely sign them. Nah, that didn't happen. But like I said, it was a God day, man, because Barry Gordy was there that day just to turn in some new songs to Jackie Wilson. And he looked so young. I thought he was waiting to audition. Yeah.

Okay. So after the audition was over and they rejected, Barry came out afterwards and wanted to know where we got the songs from because he liked two of my songs. We sang five songs. He liked two of them. Which ones? Do you remember? Yeah. One of them turned out to be the flip side of our very first recording, a song called

My Mama Done Told Me. Yeah. Yeah, and the other one was a song called I Cried. It turned out to be the flip side of our second recording. But anyway, he liked those two songs, and so he came out, and he struck up a competition. He wanted to know if I had some more songs. I had a loose-leaf notebook full of 100 songs in it, man. Really?

And I must have sang 20 of them to Barry that day, and he never said, no, I'm tired or I got to go or anything. He just listened. He critiqued all of them. He said, hey, man, you're a great rhymer. Yeah. But back in those days, babe, I would have four songs in one song because the first verse had nothing to do with the second verse, even though it was all rhymed up.

Yeah, yeah, sure. But he pointed out he started to mentor me on songwriting that day. And he told me, listen to the radio. And he said, a song's got to be a short book or a short movie or something that has a beginning and a middle. Yeah, that tie it together. But yeah, I've been trying to write all my life. And that's what started that relationship. That's what started that relationship.

So storytelling, that's it, huh? Absolutely. Because I think about it all the time because I'm more of a melody guy. So I got to take another step, especially in newer music. I mean, your music and the oldest stuff, I mean, I hear you talking, I hear you singing, so I can hear the words. But a lot of times I get caught up on a riff and I like the music and I got to go back and listen to the words. So I've been thinking about songwriting a lot, but that really is the key to it. It's a story, huh?

Yeah, man. See, because when I write, I want to write something that if I had written it 50 years before then, it would have meant something to people. It's going to mean something currently. And 50 years from now, it's going to mean something when people hear it. It's going to tell a story that is relevant.

Well, I mean, for me, I think you wrote at least four of the greatest songs ever. I love you. I mean, Tears of a Clown is by far probably my favorite song. Well, thank you so much. I mean, I listen to your version, and I like the English beat version too, the ska version. Have you heard that one? Probably.

I've heard a lot of covers on that song. But it's more of a, it's got a more, it's a different thing. But your version, it's just, I love the words of it. Now, you know, I'm a comedian, so it speaks to me somehow. Well, I have to thank Stevie Wonder for that song. You do? Oh, yeah. Yeah.

One year, we were having our Christmas party. We had them all the time, annually at Motown. And all the artists came to the party. Everybody was on the road at that time. Stevie comes in, he's got this tape. He said, hey man, I got a tape here of a track that I've cut, but I can't think of a song, so listeners can come over. So I did.

And the first thing I heard was which is Ringling Brothers, Barnum and Bailey. You know what I'm saying? So I said, I'm going to write something about the circus on this track. Yeah. And when I was a kid,

when I was in elementary school, one of my teachers, I don't even remember who, told us the story of Pagliacci. And to this moment, while I'm doing this interview, I have no idea if Pagliacci was real or just mythical.

Yeah. But anyway, Pagliacci was this great Italian clown. Yeah. But anyway, Pagliacci was this great Italian clown. Yeah. And people came to the circus to see him. He was the main focus when they came. The animals and the type of, all those people were secondary. Yeah.

Pagliacci. Yeah. And they cheered him and they loved him and so on and so forth. Yeah. And then he would go to his dressing room and he would cry because he didn't have that kind of admiration from a woman. Oh. So he was very sad.

Yeah. By himself. So Tears of a Clown is a woman. So he was very sad by himself. So Tears of a Clown is a personalized version of Pagliacci's life. Wow, that's where that came from. And Stevie just had the riff. He just had the track. That track that's on the record is the one he gave me. Really?

Yeah. So he had the whole song? He had the whole track, yeah. And he's just like, I don't know what to do with it. Yeah, he just didn't have a song. That's the way his to do with it. Yeah, he just didn't have a song. That's the way his brain worked, huh? Yeah, he just didn't have a song for it. Was he, like, is that the way Stevie thought most of the time?

I mean, I don't know how many of those early songs he wrote, but I think he wrote a lot of his own songs, right? Or did Barry write? Stevie Wonder is one of the most prolific musical people to ever live. Yeah, sure. His music covers everything from gospel to blues to jazz to whatever. Yeah. You know, he is so talented and so prolific.

So, yeah. He just thinks in terms of music. Yeah. But the other one, like Tracks of My Tears is sort of another sad song from a similar disposition. From a similar disposition. Yeah. Tracks of My Tears, I of another sad song from a similar disposition. From a similar disposition. Yeah. Tracks of My Tears, I think my guitarist, we talked about him earlier, Marv Tarplin.

Yeah. Because he came up with music for a whole lot of songs for me that became popular. Yeah. You know, he was my right-hand writing partner. He was the greatest writing partner I've ever had. Yeah. So anyway, he had given me that riff for, he put his guitar riffs on a tape and gave them to me. And he had given me that riff for Tracks of My Tears, and I kept listening

to it. And so finally I came up with three words for the chorus. Take a good look at my face, you see a smile looks out of place. If you look closer, see the trace. I love that rhyme scheme. This is the trace that you're gone, and I'm here crying. No, you did, I went through 20 of those, man. One morning, ironically enough, I'm looking in the mirror, and I'm shaving, and the thought just came to me.

Yeah. What if somebody had cried so much until their tears left tracks in their face? Yeah. That was it. So I was able to, Tracks in my tears. Yeah, so I was able to finish the song with that, yes.

You were shaving. Mm-hmm. So how does it come together? I can't even imagine the energy and excitement and just daily insanity of Motown at the beginning. Well, evidently you can because you described it perfectly. Yeah, yeah. But I mean, to be in that energy, you're all a bunch of kids absolutely man and like how does that get started how did it got started through barry gordy man i tell people

that all the time yeah because i'm a firm belief a firm believer that in every city every town every little country town every little village wherever it is yeah ratio wise there's probably that same amount of talent that we had in Detroit, ratio-wise. But the difference in Detroit was we had Barry Gordy. We had a guy with a high school education who was working on an assembly line at a car factory and boxing and decided that he wanted to write music and he wanted to make his music company like the assembly line at an auto plant.

You come in, just raw talent. Like he said, the frame of those cars would come in, and by the time they got to the end of the line, they were a car. Yeah. He wanted to do that with talent. So that was his idea. That was his idea. Come in the front door, nobody knows you. Yeah. And you're raw. Yeah. Go out the back door, star. So that was his idea? That was his idea. Come in the front door, nobody knows you. Yeah.

And you're raw. Yeah. Go out the back door, star. Huh. So that was what he wanted. And he had the assembly people. He had the writers, the musicians. Well, yeah, they gathered.

When we started becoming, at first there was only five of us there, man. Who? There was five people there on the very first day of Motown. There was Barry, who was starting the company. Yeah. There was his then wife, a lady named Ray Noma. There was a lady named Janie Bradford,

who was one of our mainstays. She's still alive. Yeah. There at the company. There was Brian Holland of Holland Doja Holland. Yeah. And me.

Yeah. Yeah. So there were five people there. And Barry said to us, he said, you guys, I borrowed $800 from my family to start my own record company.

And we are not just going to make black music. We're going to make music for everybody. We're going to make music for the world. We're going to make music. We're always going to have some great beats and some great stories. And we're always going to quality control our music to make sure that we have those ingredients. And that's what we set out to do. And thank God we did it. You did it. So at that time when he says, we're not going to just make black music, what was the black music of the time that he was up against? Oh, black music of the time was just,

you know, playing on the black stations. You had people, you know, they were playing all the groups. You know, like the Moonglows and the Spaniels and the Drifters and all those people. You know, all that. And, you know, they played people like D. Clark people, you know, all that. And, you know, they played people like Dee Clark and, you know,

Little Richard and Fast and Domino. Yeah, yeah. It just happened. So Little Richard and Fast and Domino did cross over eventually. But, you know. But there were a lot of bands that didn't. Oh, yeah, absolutely.

And the trick was the structure of the pop song. The trick was to give them music yeah was to give them music that they could understand they could relate to you know uh dr martin luther king came to motown eventually and he came and the day he came he said i want to record my i have a dream speech on motown we were very flattered he was wowattered. He said, I want you guys to record me because you're doing with music what I'm trying to do politically. What I'm trying to have laws passed about. He said, you're doing it automatically with music. You're bringing

people together. Because we were. There were places in Detroit, man, when I grew up and when we started Motown, if you were black and you were in one of those areas, you better have something on you that says I work for Ms. So-and-so or I'm supposed to be in this area for some reason.

If not, if the police caught you there, they were going to either whoop your ass or arrest you or harass you or something for being in those areas, okay? We started Motown. About a year later, we're getting letters, which would be that you couldn't even put a price on those letters nowadays if we had thought to keep them. But we're just young people. We're standing up.

We're making music. We're doing what we love. So we get the letters. We read them. Oh, this is great. And we put them on the sides. We don't even know what happened to them. But anyway, we were getting letters from the white kids in those areas.

Okay? We got your music. But our parents don't know we have it. Because if they did, they might make us throw it away. But we love your music. Okay? So we're getting those letters. A year or so after that, we're getting letters from the parents in those areas.

Hey, we found out our kids were listening to your music, so we want to see why. So we heard it. We love your music. Thank you for making music that our kids could listen to. Those letters would be invaluable, man. But we were breaking down barriers. We'd go to the South. Black people on one side of the road, white people on the other side,

or black people upstairs, white people downstairs, or vice versa. This is when you're doing shows. Yeah. Never too intertwined, never even looking at each other hardly, you know? We go back a year or so later, there's white boys with black girlfriends,

and black boys with white girlfriends, and they're all dancing together, and they're all having a good time, because we gave them a common love. We gave them that music that they commonly love. Temptation to go to Russia. We're having a Cold War with Russia. We had to get all kinds of stuff to go over there.

But the people wanted to see them. So we let them go to Russia. They go to Russia, they come back to see Smoke. Iron Curtain is real, baby. We felt it every way we went. But the people loved the music. And they knew it. So those early tours, what were the first hits out of Motown?

The very first hit was Please Mr. Postman. Oh. Yeah. Was that Marvelettes? Marvelettes. Yeah. Yeah, that started the ball rolling. Yeah.

You know? And then we signed a guy named Barrett Strong, and he had a hit, Money, That's What I Want. The best thing in life. Yeah, he had a hit. Give it to the birds. But the first million seller Was Shop Around Yeah

And Shop Around Was actually a song That I wrote For Barrett Yeah Because he had this hit Money That's What I Want So you guys were all

Working together Like let's deliver the goods Absolutely Yeah absolutely That was the beauty of it Yeah The beauty of it Was that we were

In stiff competition With each other Yes But we were also there Helping each other Yeah that's the difference. We're teaching each other so the music could be better. Yeah.

Whoever did it. Yeah. You know? So I wrote that song for Barrett, and I went and I sang it to Barry. I said, yeah, I got to smash it for Barrett. Shop Around took me 30 minutes to write, man. Yeah.

It was one of those songs that just flowed out. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I showed it to him. He said, no, man, he said, I want you to sing this song. I said, no, man, it's for Barrett, man. Money, that's what I want. Shop Around, man. He said, no, no, no, I want you. I love your voice. I want you to sing it. Yeah I said, no, man, this is for Barrett, man. Money, that's what I'm going to shop around, man. He said, no, no, no, I want you.

I love your voice. I want you to sing. No, man, we went through five of them. No, yeah, but he finally said, hey, man, just go in the studio and record this song on You and the Miracles because I love your voice on it. I did. Barrett Strong was a bluesy singer. So that's how I wrote Shop Around. Yeah.

Just because you become a young man. piano blah blah blah all that you know yeah i recorded like that yeah the record comes out it's been out for at least two weeks on the radio yeah one morning three o'clock in the morning my phone rings i pick up the phone smoke i say yeah it's me barry yeah, man, I recognize your voice. Yeah. He said, what's happening, man? I said, what's happening? I said, Barry, it's 3 o'clock in the morning.

I'm asleep. What's happening with you? He said, shop around, won't let me sleep. I said, what you mean, man? He said, you gave it the wrong treatment. He said, I'm going to change the sound. I'm going to change the beat. I'm going to change the feeling of it,

and it's going to number one. I said, Barry, the record's been on the radio for two weeks, man. He said, I don't care. It's not as good as it can be, and it's a good song. I'm going to fix it up. I said, okay, man, cool. I'll see you tomorrow. He said, no, no, no.

I mean right now. I said, Barry, it's 3 o'clock in the morning, man. He said, I don't care. I've called the musicians. You get the group. Y'all come to the studio right now while this is on my mind. We go to the studio at 3 o'clock in the morning. Yeah.

We record Shop Around with his idea. And it went to number one, the first million seller at Motown. So they took the one that was out of rotation. Yes. And you did a new one. Yes. And what was the primary difference? Everything.

Oh, okay. Everything was the primary difference. Totally different record altogether. So he just had a vision. Yes. And that's the way he was. Yes was a primary difference. Totally different record altogether. So he just had a vision. Yes. And that's the way he was. Yes. That's crazy.

Mm-hmm. So, like, you know, you say when you were a kid, you know, you go over to Aretha Franklin's house and you hear her singing in the other room. Yeah. It seems to me, like, obviously she's Aretha Franklin. But, I mean, it seems to me at Motown that that happened every other day. Well, it did. Yeah. Because people were coming.

Right. From all over the world. Yeah. Yeah. Coming to try to audition for Motown. That's amazing. Yeah. And when you met Marvin Gaye, did you, like, what was that like?

I mean, did you feel that that guy was a special talent? Oh, I knew he was. I knew he was. You know, Marvin came. There's a guy named Harvey Fuqua. Yeah. Harvey Fuqua was the founder and the leader of one of the biggest groups in the hood

that I grew up listening to as a kid. Yeah. The Moonglows. Yeah. Okay? So Marvin lived in Washington, D.C., and the Moonglows, one of the members had quit or something like that,

and Harvey hired Marvin to take his place. And then the Christmas party once again. Uh-huh. At Motown. Yeah, he brought him to the Christmas party at Motown. So they happened in the studio, in the main studio down there, in Snake Pit they call it.

In the main studio, there's a piano down there that we recorded with. Yeah. And Marvin just went over to the piano. there's a piano down there that we recorded with. Yeah. And Marvin just went over to the piano, there's people, we're having a Christmas party. Yeah.

And he just went over to the piano, sat down and started playing and singing the Christmas song. Chance and I's Rosie, you know. Oh, yeah. So I said,

crowds started gathering around him. He could sing his ass off. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So, so everybody was interested in him, you know.

And so then, Harvey introduced me to him. And, you know. Yeah. So everybody was interested in him. And so then Harvey introduced me to him. And when Marvin first came to Motown, he said he was going to be the black Frank Sinatra. He just wanted to sing standards. His first album was an album of standards. Interesting. His first single release was Mr. Sandman. Oh, wow. Mr. Sandman.

Yeah, sure. Because that'sman. Oh, wow. Yeah. Mr. Sandman. Yeah, sure. Because that's how he wanted to sing. Yeah. But then we had a guy named Mickey Stevenson, who was our first A&R director there. Yeah. And Mickey told Marvin, he said, man, if you want to make a hit, you have to change your story. Yeah, yeah. So they got together and wrote this song, Stubborn Kind of Fella.

Uh-huh. Oh, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and then it was a hit. I got my mind. So Marvin started to become Marvin Gaye at that point. Oh, wow. And then, like,

so when you guys, when do you start touring? Do you guys do the caravan thing? You know, where there's a bunch of groups on a bus? Eventually. Well, not necessarily on the bus. We caravan in cars, man. Okay. Mostly, back in those days, man, where there's a bunch of groups on a bus. Eventually. Well, not necessarily on the bus. We care about it in cars, man.

Okay. Mostly, back in those days, man, when you had a tour, there'd be a line of cars and vans and shit behind each other, you know. Nobody really could afford a bus. Right. You know, but yeah, we started touring in 19, the Miracles and I started touring in 1958. Wow, man.

Yeah. On your own or was there a few groups? Well, we, the first thing that we did was a thing in Ypsilanti, Michigan with B.B. King. And we did that. And then we had, we recorded, this was, Motown was just starting up. And when we were just starting up, we were local. Yeah. So if a record that we put out would break out big, then Barry would put it with some international company for international distribution.

Yeah, yeah. So we were, at this time, we had a record on Chess Records called Bad Girl, and it was doing really good. So that started us traveling the first really professional show we ever did what was the benefit of him taking it off

his label and putting it on Chess because we didn't have National Distribution and Chess had that at the time

yeah Chess had it we were just in Detroit Flint and Ann Arbor no shit yeah and Chess was already

established with all the blues guys. Was Chuck Berry there yet? Yeah, Eddie James. Okay, right. Mostly blues, right? Yeah. Yeah.

And so anyway, so that started us to traveling, traveling. And the first place we ever traveled to was New York. We were on the Ray Charles Show at the Apollo Theater. Oh. And so. How was that? Did you know Ray the Ray Charles show at the Apollo Theater. Oh. And so. How was that? Did you know Ray? It was terrifying and we were terrible.

You were. Yeah. It was terrifying and we were terrible. Too nervous? Yeah. And to the point where, you know, I thought the guy with the hook was going to come and take us off the stage at any moment. Yeah.

But it taught us a lesson because we went home and got ourselves together because we knew that if we wanted to be professional singers, we wanted to be better than we were when we went there. And was it just nerves or was it just a matter of practice? Well, man, you know, when you're interested in being in show business and stuff and you hear about the Apollo Theater in New York where the audiences are super critical and they take people off the stage with hooks. You're terrified. Terrified. super critical and they take people off the stage with hooks and you're terrified yeah terrified absolutely yeah

you know you can imagine going there as a kid 18 years old having to face that yeah you know what I'm saying crazy

yeah yeah so all these hits you wrote for other people it's interesting like you know you did My Guy

right for Mary Wells and then My Girl yes for The Temptations yes now when how does that process work?

Is that something you decide or Barry decided or you're working with the Temps? No, no, no. No one decides what... See, one of the beauties of Motown was if you were a producer or a writer at Motown and you had a song that you thought fit any artist there. Yeah. If you went to that artist and showed them that song and they liked it, you were free to record it on them.

Okay? You mean, okay, they can record it. There was no Barry saying it. Barry was not a dictator. Yeah. You know? Yeah. It wasn't that he run the company and he said this and he said that.

He never worked like that. That was what was so what made us so successful. Yeah. Because Barry was still in the studio too trying to get some records out on people. We had Monday morning meetings in his office. Started 9 a.m. sharp. Yeah. Only people in those meetings were the creative people, the writers and the producers.

No salespeople, no nobody else, just the writers and producers. What we did was this week I record something on the Supremes, and I want to bring it to the meeting next week. I bring it in, and everybody listens to it, and they say, okay, man, that's not a hit like that. You should do so-and-so and so-and-so and such-and-such, and bring it back next week, and maybe it'll be a hit. Oh, interesting.

That's how we did that. Total collaboration. So Barry was putting songs in there. His music just wasn't coping with ours. He just, you know, so he was never a dictator and said, well, this has got to come out and all this stuff.

So that was one of the reasons we were so successful, man. That requires a lack of ego and an appreciation of collaborative spirit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what made Motown so powerful. When Barry started Motown, man, if he didn't know something about the business,

he hired somebody who did. Yeah. And let them do that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah. So, now, from the beginning, now, were you, how did the, was there a partnership? Were you a partner in the company from the beginning?

I was part owner eventually, but not in the beginning. Not in the beginning. In the beginning, you know, it was part owner eventually, but not in the beginning. Not in the beginning. In the beginning, it was his $800. It's always been his company, but eventually I had a share in it. How did it change? Why did it change from Tamlin to Motown?

Tamlin to Motown. Well, the first artist that we ever released a record on, like I said, we were just local, and this artist ended up being on United Artists out of New York because the record broke out so big locally, was a guy named Marv Johnson. Marv Johnson had written a song.

He and Barry wrote a song called Come to Me. And we recorded that song. And at the time, Debbie Reynolds had the number one record in the world, a song called Tammy's in Love. So Barry, rather than putting it on the Motown label, which is our parent label, he wanted the label to sound like something popular. So rather than Tammy, he named it Tam-la. Yeah.

And so that's how Tam-la label came out before Motown. Oh, okay. So that was just basically a subsidiary of Motown. Exactly. Motown was the company. Was the company. So Tam-la was a label that was meant to

sound a little more poppy. Yes. A little more... Familiar. Uh-huh. And then that just, that gets swallowed up by Motown eventually.

No, it never got swallowed up. It just stayed its own thing for a while. It stayed all while we had the company. Yeah. There was always Tamla. There was always Tamla.

So how'd you decide what to be on Motown, what to be on Tamla? Well, we let the sales department decide. Oh, really? If we had a hot record out on Motown at the time, we just put it on Tamla. Yeah. Tamla, we just put it on Soul. Yeah. That, we put it on, you know.

When did Motown get the distribution necessary not to have to go to other labels? Oh, probably after Shop Around came out. Oh, yeah? Because, see, we had bashed them in the face three times in a row. Yeah. We're leaving as the postman. Yeah. Money, that's what I want.

Here come Shop Around. Yeah. Yeah. Then you got it. See, because back in those days, especially if you were black, the distributors might not pay you at all. Right. They might not pay you anything because they're waiting to see what you're going to do.

If you have another hit record, then they might pay you for the first one, you know. We bombarded them. We got to the point where they'd be calling, when's your next record coming out? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, yeah. And wait, we're, wait, now, and you're best friends with Aretha through all of this, right? Yes. And she's not on Motown.

No, her father wouldn't let her be on Motown. And was that, like, did you guys have conversations about that? Yeah, Aretha and I talked about it. Yeah. Her father wouldn't let her be on Motown because we were fledgling. Yeah. And he wanted her to be with somebody that was popular with international distribution. I understood it.

Yeah. She was a great singer. Yeah. You know, so she went over to Columbia, and she sang standards. And it didn't work for years. It didn't work. Yeah, she sang standards. But Aretha could sing the phone book, and it would have been a hit. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. But she sang standards, and then that didn't work for years. It didn't work, yeah. She sang standards. But Aretha could sing the phone book and it would have been a hit.

You know what I'm saying? Yeah. But she sang standards and then that didn't work. So finally as Ahmaud Ardengan approached her and got her to go to Atlantic and here comes Aretha Franklin. Right, and then Wexler got involved. Yeah, Jerry. Yeah. Do you know that guy?

Not knowing him, but I know him, yeah. So when do you become, so you move up, I don't know if you move up, but you become a partner in Motown, right? Yeah. And then you, you, you actually were vice president for a while. I was vice president for, yeah, for, for as long as we had it after 1963. Yeah. I became a vice president in 1963 and I was vice president until we sold Motown.

So what happens with, how does it shift from, you know, you being solo and you and the Miracles, and then, you know, you stepping away from Motown? How does that, I guess it's two different times. But what was the decision around doing solo? You know what, man? Like I said, I had been a vice president since 1963. Yeah.

I retired from the Miracles in 1972. Yeah. Yeah. I retired from The Miracles in 1972. Yeah. Okay. While I was at home, I had two jobs, actually. Yeah. I was vice

president. I got a salary from that. Yeah. I was doing that. I was writing and producing for

other people, not just The Miracles and me. I was making money from that. The other guys in the group were not. I tried to encourage them because, you know the Miracles and Me. I was making money from that. The other guys in the group were not. I tried to encourage them because I was tired,

and I tried to encourage them to write some songs. I just put their names on songs just so they would have some other income to subside when I was at home. But when I was at home, I was working then because I had a job because I was Vice President Motown. So I was at home, I was working then because I had a job because I was the vice president of Motown. Yeah. You know, so I was always working. So, and like I said, Claudette, who was my first wife, she was the girl in the group. And while she's traveling on the road, we're traveling on the road with grueling back in the day.

We did 31-nighters, that kind of stuff, you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so we wanted to have some kids eventually. We had seven miscarriages. Oh, my God. Because of her being on the road. Terrible. Finally, my oldest son was born.

Yeah. And two years later, my daughter was born. So I didn't want to be with my kids like that. I wanted to see them. You wanted to be on the road. Yeah, I wanted to see them take their first steps. Yeah. Say their first words and all that, you know. Right. So I told the guys in the group, I said, I'm going to see them take their first steps. Yeah. Say their first words

and all that, you know. Right. So I told the guys in the group, I said, I'm going to retire. They laughed at me. Yeah.

Yeah. Because we've been together since we were kids. We were brothers and they knew how much I loved it. Yeah. So they,

oh yeah, man, right. Okay, cool. Okay, cool, baby. I'll see you later. That kind of thing. Yeah. So then I was really going to retire, man.

And here comes Tears of a Clown. And we recorded Tears of a Clown in 1967. It was on an album of The Miracles and Me. And in 1970, when I was getting ready to retire, a young lady who worked for Motown in England had that record, that album, playing in the office

on a record player, and Tears of a Clown comes on. So she goes bonkers. A guy named Peter was running our office over there in England at the time. She called Peter and said, Peter, this is a hit. We should put this out over here. Peter agreed. They put it out over there.

It's the first number one record we ever had in the UK. Started to spread out all over Europe, you know. Had another record ready to go here in the United States. I told Barry, I said, he said, no, no, no. We're putting out Tears of a Clown here. Yeah. To this date, Tears of a Clown is the biggest single record I've ever been attached to. No kidding.

It just went bonkers all over the world. Wow. So then the guys came and said, hey, man, our salaries went up and all that. You're definitely not retiring now. So I agreed with them. Like I said, they were my brothers. I wanted them to have as much stockpile cash as they could possibly have.

So I went for another year. Yeah. But during that year, I told them, I said, you guys better find somebody. So they auditioned guys from all over the country. They finally came up with this guy named Bill Griffin from Baltimore. And Bill traveled with us for about six months before I retired to watch the

show every night and so on and so forth. And then I retired with the intention of never being on stage again. That was 1972? Yes. Wow. Never being on stage again. That was my thing. I've been on stage. The Miracles and I had done everything a group could do. We had done it three or four times. We've been all over the world. I'm done. The kids are here. I am done. I will never be on stage again. Okay. So I started to move Motown out to Los Angeles. I started to go to the office every day and doing all that. When I was in Detroit, my office was designed to induct new talent. When I moved out to Los Angeles,

the mayor said, okay, man, you say you're my best friend, I'm going to make you the financial officer. So I was signing checks and getting checks and all that, you know.

And at first, it was great, man, because I am doing some corporate stuff. I would go have corporate meetings with people. I traveled, go to New York,

have a corporate meeting. I was, oh, man, I'm doing my vice president's day. It was cool. After about two and a half years, I was climbing the walls. Were you writing songs? I was writing songs, yeah. Okay.

So it didn't leave you? No. Mm-mm. I was climbing the walls, okay? And I just missed being on stage and being in show business and all that. The miracles were still going on there. And I got to the point where I would go to little clubs in the evening after I left the office just to see somebody on stage, man. I was suffering inside.

But I didn't tell my wife. I didn't tell Barry. I didn't tell anybody because I didn't want anybody to think I was giving up or I failed at being the vice president. I didn't tell anybody. I was just miserable on the inside, you know. Like the tracks from my tears or something like that. You know what I'm saying? So I'm living that.

And finally one day Barry came to my office. He said, hey, man. He said, I want you to do me a favor. I said, what? He said, I want you to get a band and make a ring and get out of here. I said, what? He said, yeah. He said, you heard me?

Because you're miserable. And when I see you miserable, it makes me miserable. I don't want to be miserable. So I need you to get out of here. I said, what? He said, yeah. He said, you heard me? Because you're miserable. And when I see you miserable, it makes me miserable. I don't want to be miserable, so I need you to get away from me. So I did. I got a band. I went to the studio. I recorded a Quiet Storm album. And that was my debut back into show business.

That's so wild. And when you were going out, like when you're miserable and you're going out to clubs as he was working, were you getting sort of, I guess you were at Motown still, but the music had changed a little bit, right? Yeah, it had changed. Yeah.

Were you seeing guys at that time where you're like, damn, I gotta get back into this? Well, no, I wasn't thinking, damn, I gotta get back into it

because I didn't think it was gonna be possible for me to get back into it. Right. So, but I was thinking, damn. Yeah. Yeah.

Because like, you know, that record is, it was, I mean, I don't know when it shifted. Did it shift with Marvin Gaye in the 70s? Is that what changed the nature of R&B, the sound of it? I don't know that it shifted with him necessarily, but I know that what's going on to this moment is still my favorite album of all times. Yeah. You know, I was with him when he was writing it,

and he told me, he said, Smoke, God is writing this album. Uh-huh. He said, I'm just a catalyst, babe. I'm sitting here at the piano, but God is writing this. When you listen to it, I can believe you, because it's prophecy. What he wrote on that album

is more poignant today than it was when the album came out. Prophecy. So anyway, yeah. I think that he just changed... I know he changed Barry's mind on music because Marvin was our sex symbol

at Motown. And Barry was totally against him doing what's mind on music because Marvin was our sex symbol at Motown. And Barry was totally against him doing what's going on. Why? Because he thought it was a protest record and it wasn't fitting Marvin's image. And Marvin was going to lose fans by coming out with something like that. But Marvin, like I said, his first record was Stubborn Kind of Fella. And that's who he was. He was stubborn.

Marvin said, no, man. He said, I'm putting this out. If you don't put this out, I'm not putting anything out. So he said, this is it. So he and Barry made a bet. And Barry lost big time. He lost big time, man.

Because it feels like, you know, that changed culture in a way, right? It did. Like I said, it's prophecy. And how did it make you think about your music? Well, I did want to do a concept album. That's why my first Choir Storm album was a concept album.

Right. And it was hooked together through the wind. Right, it opens with the wind. Yeah, you know. Yeah. But yeah, and I had no idea what it was going to become, what it has become,

become a radio format and all that. You know, I wasn't even thinking like that. I just thought, okay, I'm going back in the show business and I've always been a quiet singer, but I'm going to take it by storm. Yeah. And then I said, ooh, that's a great idea. Quiet storm. Well, that's interesting because What's Going On comes out in 1971 and you were talking to him through the whole process of that. And there was something personal and quiet about that record in a way

and it had a lot of textures and it was a concept record. And it flowed. Yeah. It just flowed. So that planted a seed, I bet, a little bit, right? Yep. And so how was, like, you guys were pretty good friends, you and Marvin. Yeah, we were really good friends.

Yeah. And when did he start kind of coming unhinged? You and Marvin. Yeah, we were really good friends. Yeah. And when did he start kind of coming unhinged? You know, after finding out his relationship with his dad. Yeah.

He probably started to, I didn't know that until after Marvin was dead. Which part of it? What his relationship with his dad was like. Yeah. We never talked about that. Oh, really? I always felt like that if we had talked about it, I might have could have helped him or something. Yeah.

But he started to unravel as a child because his dad was a whole other kind of dude. Yeah. His dad was really deep. Yeah. Abusive. Yes.

Yeah. So. So, and then it just kind of blew up later. Yes. Obviously. But, okay, and then it just kind of blew up later. Yes. Obviously. But, okay, but the Quiet Storm record, this is the record that a lot of these young guys cite as the beginning of their sort of awareness about almost a new kind of music. I'll take it. And that sort of defined, you know, your approach up until now.

Yeah. And the primary difference was it was a concept record, but there's something they call the smooth approach. But you've always been, I guess, I don't know if that's true. Would you say you were smooth when you were younger? I don't know what to define myself as. Sure. But I always thought that, like I said,

I thought that I was never a loud kind of singer- you know so that's why i came with the quiet thing quite so i was going to be a quiet storm yeah yeah yeah so and then that and then you sort of you you just got back into it and started releasing those solo records yes and when do you hit the wall which wall is that? Like, when did your life spiral out of control? It started to spiral out of control in about 1980, at the end of 1981. Yeah. At the end of 1981, and it was out of control until May of 1986. Oh, yeah? Okay, yes.

Yeah. Now, what happened with me was I have never been a drinker. Yeah. And weed is and always was my drug of choice. Yeah. Okay? Yeah. So, I've always been like I'll just

for lack of a better term athletic because I always played sports and I run marathons all that kind of stuff like that so with weed

I always had that control of it I could have the greatest weed in the world and not smoke it for a year

just you know just because I had because I was always running and doing different stuff like that so one year for a year. Yeah. Just, you know, just because I had, because I was always running and doing different stuff like that. Yeah.

So, one year, I was with one of my friends, I will not call his name because he's a very popular man. Uh-huh. And he had some cocaine. Yeah.

Now, where I grew up, I had seen everything. Sure. Cocaine, heroin, junkies, prostitutes,

blah, blah, blah, all in my neighborhood. Yeah. Some in my house. Sure. You know what I'm saying? Yeahitutes, blah, blah, blah, all in my neighborhood. Yeah. Some in my house. Sure. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. So, yeah.

But anyway, I never bothered with any cocaine or anything. So anyway, he has his cocaine, and he puts it in one of my joints. Uh-huh. Okay? Yeah. And I smoke it, and I liked it. Sure. Beginning of the downfall.

Sure. Okay. So I got to the point where I was loving that so much. I was doing it all the time. Yeah. Went down to 122 pounds. Sure. Okay. So I got to the point where I was loving that so much. I was doing it all the time. Yeah. Went down to 122 pounds. Ugh. Just a skeleton, you know, just.

Did you lose your mind? No, I never lost my mind. I guess I did if I'm doing all that like that. Yeah. But anyway, I was just, and all the physical things that were happening to me and happening to my body. Yeah. And I wasn't telling anybody. Yeah.

Because I was afraid to even go to the doctor because I knew he was going to say, oh, man, if you had just come last week, I could have saved you, but it's too late, you know. Yeah. But anyway, another one of my closest friends came and got me one Sunday night, man. And he had heard about it because it wasn't publicized

because I was very hermit with it to myself. But at the same time, Marvin was spiraling too, right? Yeah, yeah. But you were in different places? Yeah, we were in different places, but I didn't really start to spiral until he got killed. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I didn't really, you know,

because he and I used to do it together sometimes. Sure, yeah. But I never snorted cocaine or did the pipe or the freebasing. I never did that. I just took it with weed. Oh, really? That's all you ever did was just put it in a cigarette? You smoked it?

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But anyway, yeah. But anyway, I didn't spiral out of control until he was dead. Oh. You know, he just. Yeah. And anyway, I did.

And what did your friend friend he helped you? someone come help you? yeah he came and he said I heard about this a couple of people in my family knew and Barry knew and they were all trying to help me so I'm going to pray for you

so he started praying for me and he took me to a prayer service the next night where the minister called me up to the platform I had never seen her in my life she had never seen me in her life she whispers in my ear a prayer service the next night where the minister called me up to the platform. I had never seen her in my life. She had never seen me in her life. She whispers in my ear, she says, I don't know you, but I know you.

She said, most of these people probably don't even recognize you in this church because you look really bad. Because I did, man. I looked horrible. you're in this church because you look really bad because i did man i looked horrible she said but a year ago i was in my prayer closet praying and your name came out of my mouth smoky robinson she said now i said lord i don't know smoky robinson i've never even met smoke and the lord told me well you pray for him because if you don't, he's going to die and have a stroke from smoking cocaine. So here you are.

That's why I called you up here tonight. I know about it. She started telling me all the stuff that was happening to me physically and all that, that I hadn't told anybody on earth. I never said it to anyone on earth. She told me everything, every symptom, everything about my stomach, everything about the shortness of breath and the cold sweat. She told me all that whispering in my ear. Then she passes out.

And she raised it up. She said, the Lord is powerful in your spirit. You're going to spread this because you're healed now. So I tell everybody I was healed. I didn't go to the hospital. I've never been to rehab. I've never been to any place like that. I was healed because God sent me there that night to be healed.

Because if not, I wouldn't even be here talking to you, man. That's how far gone I was. I was out. Quite a moment. And I did that for two years. I speak now at churches and rehabs and gang meetings and schools and all that. And when I go to the rehabs, man, I see people in there who've been doing that. And the drugs are a whole lot worse than they were then when I was doing it.

Oh, yeah, because you just dropped dead. They've been doing it for 10 years. And they're 20. You know what I mean? Yeah, I do. I don't know how. I do. I have no idea how.

Yeah. But anyway, so, yeah, so, you know, I mean? Yeah, I do. I don't know how. I do. I have no idea how. Yeah. But anyway, so yeah, so, you know, I was healed. And I haven't had any drugs since May of 1986. Oh, yeah? Yeah. Wow. Like I said, I smoke a little weed now, but other than that. Yeah.

So it was a... I told my family, I told my wife, I said, if anybody ever comes to you and says, smoke your weed, call the cops. Yeah. Really. Yeah, yeah, yeah., call the cops. Yeah. Really. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You call the cops. Because they killed you. Absolutely. But before that,

you were brought up in the church or no? Not exactly. Yeah. Not exactly. Like I said, my mom passed when I was 10, man. My mom was one of those church people. But my mom was also one of those women that would cuss you out in a New York second if you got down wrong. Yeah. You know?

Right. But she went to church three times a week. Yeah. She was in the church choir and the pastor meetings or whatever the church was. Sure, sure. You know, Sunday, she would make me go to Sunday school. And sometimes, if my sisters weren't there to take care of me she would make me go back to church with her at night right now man i was terrified of church i was terrified of i've never

been a real church goer even since i was there because i'm a little boy yeah and i see see in in the baptist churches and in the in the black churches those sisters are shouting and falling all over and dancing around and falling on the floor. And they come and revive them with smelling salts and all that. That used to scare me to death. Okay. I was terrified. Yeah.

So I guess growing up, you know, when I got to the point where I didn't have to go, I didn't. That's interesting because it wasn't like, because so many, you know, R&B singers or people of your generation kind of cite that music as being the roots of where their music comes from. Well, I think that if you're just going to talk about the music, see, I think that all American music, this includes country and western, whatever, all American music stems from the cotton fields. From those black folks being out there picking that cotton, all they could do to entertain themselves was hum and sing and praise the lord and all this stuff so that derived into the blues yeah and the blues derived into uh r&b and pop and all you know yeah so i think it all stems from that yeah but i was not i was not a kid who went to church and sang in church and i didn't do that yeah Yeah. Yeah. But because. Even though I was growing up with Aretha Franklin.

Yeah. She definitely did. Absolutely. But, but it seems like that on the new record, You Fill Me Up is kind of a gospel song, isn't it? Well. I guess it could go either way. Yes.

There you go. Yeah. You, you, you, you hit the nail on the head because that's exactly what I wanted it to be. Yeah. Yeah. You can go either way. Yeah. Absolutely. And I tried exactly what I wanted it to be. Yeah. Yeah, you can go either way. Yeah.

Absolutely. And I tried to leave that for all the songs. Yeah. You know, GASMs. Yeah. People would tell me, well, why'd you call it GASM? Because I knew it would be controversy.

Yeah. I knew it caused controversy because GASMs. Because people, when they say GASM, first thing they think about is orgasm. Sure. Yeah. Oh, he's talking about GASMs, you know. first thing they think about is orgasm.

Sure. Yeah. Oh, he's talking about orgasm. You know? Yeah. And one of the comments online was a girl said, how's he going to be thinking about orgasm? And he's 83. You know?

Yeah. I have never stopped loving sex. Yeah. Well, that's good. I hope I don't ever get to that point. I don't know. What are you going to do then? That's the end of it.

Really? Really? Yeah. Yeah. I hear people, they're 60 or 50. Well, gosh, I don't think about sex. I'm, what are you going to do then? That's the end of it. Really, really. Yeah, I hear people, they're 60 or 50, well, gosh, I don't think about sex, I'm 60 years old, well, I don't know what happened to you, but

whatever it was, I'm sorry. This is a pretty sexy record. Yeah, so I left every song open for your own interpretation. Yeah, and now, this is the first album since what, since like 2009? Oh man, yeah, the first album of original material that I had. I did one a while back.

I was with a person from Amazon approached me, and they wanted me to do an album. So I did one called Smokey and Friends. Oh, that was fun, right? Yeah, yeah, it was fun to sing with my friends and stuff. Yeah. And the Christmas album. Right, but the original material.

So what have you been doing? I've been working, man. You know, I do concerts all the time. Sure, right. You do the live shows. Yeah, I've been doing live shows. And I've been writing. I write all the time.

Yeah. It just took a while? Yeah, it took a while. It took a while. It took, you know, about five years, really. What was holding you back? Just the fact that I wanted it to be, whereas when I heard it or listened back to it, I could say, okay, I gave it all I got. Right.

Yeah. Yeah. It sounds great. Thank you. But it was very important because it is the first original material album that I've had on in a long time. And at my age, it's important that I come with something that I thought people would take to. So I had to listen to it a thousand times and work on it and work on it and work on it. Hard on yourself.

Yeah, until I feel like, okay, this is it for this album. Yeah. And now do you feel like, do you look back at your other stuff and do you have sort of favorites, you know, outside? Or is like what's happening now what's happening? Yeah. For me, what's happening now is what's happening. Yeah.

Yeah, I'm not going to retro. See, people, I think a lot of, the mistake that a lot of people make when they're making music is to try to outdo their last music. Yeah. And especially if they've had something that's a really big hit. Yeah. They're going to try to outdo that. So it stymies them.

Yeah. I just wanted some music that I enjoyed, that feels good to me, that I think would get the attention of people. And then I just hope people will like it. Well, I think it's great and it sounds great and it's a nice, you know, variety of the type of music

you've always done and, you know, it was an honor meeting you, sir. My pleasure. On the Ball, Engaged. What a great conversation.

GASM's, his new record, is available wherever you get your music. And if you could, please hang out for a second. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category.

And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on under the influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario cannabis store and a cast

creative. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of kids night when the Toronto rock take on the Colorado mammoth at a special 5. PM start time on Saturday, March 9th at first Ontario center in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance. We'll get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of backley construction.

Punch your ticket to kids night on Saturday, March 9th at 5. P.M. In rock city at Toronto rock.com. Five years ago, I had just moved into this house and one of the first guests I had in the new garage was Josh Brolin. That's episode nine 15 and you can listen to it right now for free and

whatever podcast app you're using. How long have you been sober? Almost five years. That's episode 915, and you can listen to it right now for free in whatever podcast app you're using. How long have you been sober? Almost five years. That's great. Yeah? But I had five years, and then I had three and a half. That's what happens. Three and a half and then five, and then, yeah.

Are you able to identify why you decide that moment? To go back out? Yeah. Oh, yeah, man. It was an absolutely fully conscious decision. You're like, I'm ready? Yeah. Seriously. It wasn't like. Yeah, man, it was an absolutely fully conscious decision. You're like, I'm ready? Yeah. Seriously.

It wasn't like, yeah, yeah. It wasn't like, you know, you hear these guys in the rooms, they're like, I don't even know what happened. Like before I knew it, I was in the bar. I was drinking. I get a little fucking, I don't know what happened. And you're like, how is that possible? I knew I made an absolute conscious decision to go fuck it up even more. Because I appreciated the destructivity of it all more than I liked sobriety at that point.

Now, it's very different. It's very different. What do you think changed? I don't know. And there was no major moment of clarity or anything. I saw my grandma. She was on her apparent deathbed. She didn't die until later. Yeah. And I went in there after Halloween and I had been kind of helming the whole taking care of grandma thing and the family was around and all that. And my brother and I were going to go

see her. And this was like the 10th day or something. And then I went out and to have a nice Halloween with my wife. Yeah. And then that turned into all kinds of shit. When you end up at Del Taco, you know something's wrong. You know what I mean? You know, it's time to get sober.

If it's late at night, yeah. Del Taco, not even paying attention to what's around you. No. No. You see the sign kind of through a brownout or a blackout

and you're like, what does that say? Del no taco. Fuck. And you know you're doomed.

Again, that's episode 915 with Josh Brolin. You can get all WTF episodes ad-free with a WTF Plus subscription. So just go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF Plus. Here's some riffage. Thank you. Thank you. Boomer lives. Monkey and La Fonda. Cat angels everywhere. Thank you.