WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1445 - Ben Kingsley

Episode Date: June 19, 2023

Ben Kingsley believes his job is to reflect truth and in order to do that he keeps many voices in his heart and mind. Those voices include Steven Spielberg, Otto Frank, Elie Wiesel, Rajmohan Gandhi, and others who gave him gifts of wisdom and encouragement as he performed some of his most memorable roles. Sir Ben also talks with Marc about how his science eduction informs his acting, how Shakespeare’s writing is a map of truth, and how he transformed into Salvador Dalí in his most recent film. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney+. 18-plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Lock the gates! all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast what's going on listen there's something fresh in my mind, all right? And I'm going to lay it out for you.

The process of how I do what I do, why I do what I do, what has evolved over the period of doing what I do. Today, I talked to Oscar winner Sir Ben Kingsley. He won the Oscar for Gandhi. He's been in hundreds of things, hundreds. Among them them Sexy Beast, Schindler's List, you know, I assumed to talk to me. That's what we do here. We talk to Mark. And look, I have been doing this for a long time. I've been doing this for about 1,444 episodes. A lot has happened over that time uh in terms of my life the way i approach life the way i approach this show what's happened in my life a lot of things have happened but the one thing that remains consistent is that we do a new show

with usually a new guest every monday Thursday. And as I've spoken about before, in many ways, it's become my social life on some level. I enjoy talking to these people that come into my house and then into my garage to have a conversation with them. And look, this is a show where I do seek connection with my guests. I am a gracious host. I am an excitable host. Sometimes I'll interject, sometimes to the annoyance of some of you, but really that's the way I want to do it. This is a conversation show.

It's established as such. Now, looking back at all the episodes in my memory, that's out of 1,444 episodes. I don't remember all of them. Some of them I remember as being amazing. And very few do I remember as being bad. Almost none. And a few I remember as being difficult and aggravating. And I keep that shit to myself generally, though eventually I tell you people, you know, what's going on.

But at this point in time, after however long we've been doing this, 12 plus years, you know, it has its own reputation. It is a known quantity. You should know what you're getting into when you come over to my house to sit with me. And I think that most people do, but some people don't. And I don't hold them. I don't blame them for that. You know, I go out and do press. And sometimes as I'm walking in, I'll say to whoever's in charge, what is this? What are we doing? Or at least that morning, what is this? What are we doing?

A lot of times I know the host. A lot of times if it's a TV show, I know what's up. You just tell me the format. I can work within any format you're going to give me. Yeah, I didn't have a great time on Andy Cohen's show, but I tried. I just don't know the culture that well. But that doesn't matter. I'm a reasonably gracious guest as well and open and game to engage.

I mean, that's what life is about. That's what this show is about. I don't have to talk to anybody. You know, I'm not, you know, nothing is going to change the trajectory of this show. We do fine. And we talk to people who become available that I'm interested in. In my recollection, there's been a few that were, you know, difficult because people did not want to have a conversation or they did not know what they were getting into. And I remember them specifically.

Really. Patricia Arquette, which turned out to be a great episode, but she didn't know what they were getting into. And I remember them specifically, really. Patricia Arquette, which turned out to be a great episode, but she didn't know what it was and was like, you know, what are the questions? And I'm looking at a blank page. Nick Cave was difficult because I started off trying to be candid and it didn't land and it made him defensive. And I think it turned out okay. Neil Young was another one who, you know, I tried to do what I do, which is, you know, get people to kind of get comfortable with the situation. This is my house. This is my space. Look what I have.

This is on my mind. Maybe I'll start a conversation like that, what happened that day, to see where that goes. And I remember I tried that with Neil Neil and he was having none of it. But I stayed in the saddle and I won him over and we had an amazing conversation unlike any conversation that Neil Young has had publicly. That's what I do. I try to talk to the person

that I've invited to my house to talk to. This is not an interview show. This is a conversation show. Now, look, Sir Ben Kingsley is Sir Ben Kingsley. I understand that. He became available. I watched the movie. I did my homework. I read up on him. I've seen most of his big films. Certainly, I'm familiar with Gandhi.. Certainly I'm familiar with Bugsy. Certainly, you know, Sexy Beast was a very memorable movie, a very odd, intense movie where he plays a mob guy, a British mob guy.

So I'm nervous that Ben Kingsley's coming over. And I watched the Dolly movie. I enjoyed it. And I, you coming over and I watched the Dolly movie. I enjoyed it. And I, you know, as I talk to actors, I don't always know how to approach actors for years. You know,

actors were not the, the, the, the bread and butter or the meat and potatoes of this show, because sometimes they aren't fundamentally that interesting necessarily. And, you know, I got to really push to get something out of them,

whether they want to maintain their mystique or whether they are fundamentally not, you know, don't engage that way. But lately, you know, I find because I'm doing some acting, I enjoy talking to actors and, and almost all the time we have a pleasant conversation. The day that I talked to Ben Kingsley, I, a few hours before I interviewed LeVar Burton, who was a wonderful guy, nice guy, A few hours before, I interviewed LeVar Burton, who was a wonderful guy, nice guy, knew me, fan of mine. And we had a very open conversation about, you know, his career and about, you know, philosophical ideas, ideas of faith, ideas of race. And it was a nice chat. It felt great.

And then, like, four hours later, I've got, uh, Sir Ben Kingsley coming over and, you know, I was loaded up in my mind. So first the publicist comes, says he's 10 minutes out. And I talked to her for a little while about the movie, about Dollyland, about where it's playing and about, you know, how Ben's been, uh, in these interviews and, uh, and, and what he's up to. And I don't think there's not a lot of interviews of him on television or even on radio or in audio format, but I had some ideas about where I wanted to go. And I kind of keep it loose in my mind to try to, you know, get a conversation going so we can both have a back and forth, a give and take. And this has happened before it happened with Javier Bardem. That was another one very recently where, you know,

Ben came over and stepped into my house and he didn't, he didn't seem to know why he was in my house and he looked intensely aggravated. He was exuding a, you know, what the fuck am I doing here? Kind of of vibe. Now, this is a performer.

This is a guy that intentionally behaves. This is a guy that, you know, knows the power of his presence. He's immersed in it. He has complete control of it. We talk about it for an hour. And he didn't seem happy at all. So I told the publicist, you can hang out here in the house. And Ben and I, Sir Ben and I will go out to the studio.

So we walked outside. We walked past the newly planted lavender. I said, I just planted this. And he's like, I think that's French lavender. And I'm like, is it? He goes, yes, it's French lavender. Okay, great. I'm like, great. We're having a nice little chat.

We're getting loose, having some honest engagement. And then we get in here and I point him where to walk and sit on the orange chair. And I ask him if he wants water. And he says, yeah, I have some water. And I, would you like it flat, sparkling? Would you like it room temp? He said, room temp, flat's fine. And then he said, do you have a cushion for this chair,

a back cushion? And I have my Iggy Pop pillow. It's got a big picture of Iggy on it. And I slid that in there. I gave it to Ben. He slid it behind his back. I went into the other room in the kitchen here to get him some water.

And I brought out a can of liquid death. I'm not paid to promote that, but I want you to picture it. It's a big can. And he said, do you have a glass? And I said, yes. And I walked back into the kitchen out here, which is just minimally stocked up. And I said, is a mug okay? And he says, yes, a mug is fine.

Okay, good. So I bring the mug out, just some promotional mug I got from somewhere that you would find in a workplace. And it was tense all of a sudden because of the mug. I don't know. But, you know, this wasn't the Ben that commented on my flowers. So we get into it, you know, and I figure like, I just talked to Jessica Chastain the day before I talked to Ben, who told me a lovely story about an interaction she had with Sir Ben Kingsley

at the airport. She, she kind of, um, decided to approach him and say hi and introduce herself and tell him that she was going to India. And he gave her some advice about, about how to not get sick in India. This was a specific story. She told me the day before and you'll hear, okay, you'll hear what happens when I try to bring that up. Now, as a guy who does my show and does what I do, This was just an attempt to get, to loosen it up, to get some conversation going. And it, it,

it just dies. It dies on the vine, man. And he's staring daggers at me. Any moment of silence, he's stiff arming me with stink eye. So right away, I'm familiar with this.

I've done many of these interviews. I'm like, all right, this is how this is going to go. Scramble for some specific questions to make this happen. Because part of me was sort of like, I don't need this shit. Right? But it's Sir Ben Kingsley. He's one of the greatest actors ever. And I'm interested.

Sure, I want to be able to converse with him. I want to connect with him. But I've been doing this long enough to where I can realize that, all right, well, it's not going to happen right now, dude. So let's get him going. Ask him a question. So I ask him a question about approaching character and then he starts to talk and he starts to talk about acting now i don't know most sometimes i know what people have said before and how they've handled themselves and what is part of their public narrative i have

some notes generally about the person, but he just starts talking, I said specifically about Salvador Dali. And then all of a sudden we are into a fairly amazing discussion about Shakespeare. And I was into it. Like I know if in lieu of being able to connect, you know, be attentive, listen, listen, be moved by the man or woman that's speaking to you. And if it's going to happen, let it happen. So I locked in and I listened to Ben talk about Shakespeare and it was spectacular. It was great, but I had to hold on to my show. And I do think that I guided him some places. This was just the challenge of what I was experiencing, you know, in this conversation. Cause it happens to me sometimes.

Like, I feel like, well, if I don't say something, I'm just presenting, you know, a masterclass on, you know, acting with Ben Kingsley, which I don't mind doing, but I'd like to be part of the conversation. And then when we finished the conversation, you know, he seemed very happy, very thrilled, and, you know, and gracious all of a sudden. Towards the end, when he talked about his kids, he loosened up a little bit, but Jesus Christ, man. So again, this was a fascinating presentation

by Sir Ben Kingsley about many things. I enjoyed listening to it. His new film Dollyland is now playing in theaters and you know, feel me feeling Ben here

and listen to Ben. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. And listen to Ben. we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly.

This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel

by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series, streaming February 27thth exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. It was interesting because you came up in conversation yesterday. Jessica Chastain was here, the actress, and said you had given her some advice about India at an airport.

Do you remember that? No. If someone was visiting India, do you know what you would tell them? No. She said you told her to dip her toothbrush in water, brush her teeth, and every day take a shot of alcohol and she wouldn't get sick. Oh. Is that true? No idea. None? No. I thought it was an interesting bit of advice. So I watched a Dali movie, and it was great.

I enjoyed the performance. And I realize that you've played a very eclectic bunch of real people in your life. So how do you approach that when you accept to play Dali? What are some of the things you do first? I think I am blessed in having what I could least describe as voices in my head and voices in my heart Yeah. Right from my blessed very early days. You know, my second or third job in my very early 20s was joining the Royal Shakespeare Company. Yeah.

Remarkable start to introduction to my career. introduction to my career. So I would say that one of the treasured voices in my head and in my heart is the voiceelible and timeless map of patterns of human behavior that can sustain and reflect and gratify the most modern scrutiny we could possibly bring to the behavior of his characters. Right. To such an extent that some of his characters have even been included in the psychiatric vocabulary, as, for example, the Othello syndrome. Okay. I would say that occupying this map of human behavior, of Shakespeare's version of truth,

was for me an absolutely inevitable guide throughout my career. Right. Absolutely inevitable. And when you joined the Shakespeare, Royal Shakespeare, what had your experience as an actor been? Very modest. I didn't go to drama school, modest. I didn't go to drama school, so I didn't have the benefit of a, I didn't have a formal drama education. I nearly said benefit, but of course it doesn't benefit everybody, clearly.

And sometimes it can even inhibit. So I was a member of a wonderful dramatic society. Yeah. Amateur players. Yeah. One of whom begged me to try and go professional. And to my astonishment, I auditioned for a small company that performed for children. Oh, yeah. Theater in education.

So fairy tales and such? No. No. My first encounter with Shakespeare was playing Shakespeare to students between the ages of 11 and 17. Ah. Now, we didn't present whole plays to them. Yeah. We presented excerpts from plays.

Yeah. Speeches. Yeah. With which they could, if they wished, participate as crowd members, as small players. But the point I'm making is that my very first encounter as a professional actor was with the work of William Shakespeare. Because I've talked about Shakespeare with Ian McKellen and Patrick Stewart. And because I have a hard time with the language when I've tried to approach it myself. And Ian McKellen actually sat there and did Shakespeare at me.

And I absorbed it. I somehow can't quite harness the emotions because the language is a little bit of an obstacle to me, but I know that it's all in there. So I think we must accept and can accept that the only way to transmit the unique energy and intellect and far-reaching vision of Shakespeare is to see him well-performed. Right, right. Then you were asking me about my early days. Sure. recommended I join a repertoire company in Stoke-on-Trent, who recommended I join a company in Chichester, who recommended I audition for the Royal Shakespeare Company. So I went from hand to hand.

Right. And then with the RSC, the Royal Shakespeare Company, I was a member for on and off for something like 12 years. Yeah. member for on and off for something like 12 years yeah in other words um to get back to your question yeah it would be absolutely impossible for me foolhardy for me to attempt the role of Mahatma Gandhi without 10 years of colossal experience with Shakespeare. Because that man placed on the face of the world at that time in history could only have, if history had not invented him, could only have been invented by Tolstoy or Shakespeare.

He was a colossus. Right. And to approach that kind of silhouette and to fill it with any kind of authority or truth is a better word. Yeah. I had to be equipped with that forensic exploration of that brilliant compressed language, the energy of which can only be released and communicated if it's well-performed. can only be released and communicated if it's well-performed.

Yeah. And therefore, when I... And Richard Attenborough, his family saw my Hamlet. Uh-huh. And it was my Hamlet that led me to Gandhi. Without my Hamlet, I would not have been seen by the Attenborough family, and I would not have been considered for the role. Number one.

And number two, without the experience of playing that colossal role and many other Shakespeare roles, I could not have grasped his unique place in history. Gandhi's. Yes. And Hamlet is a brilliantly constructed play because it is a tremendous gift to the actor. I remember standing, it was a very fine studio performance. So we didn't stand in the wings. I literally entered through the crash doors of this wonderful intimate theater called The Other Place, Stratford-upon-Avon. And whilst standing on the outside of those crash doors, waiting for the little red light to turn green for me to enter,

I used to say to myself, I can't do this. I can't do this. I cannot get through the next two and a half to three hours. I can't do this. I can't do this. I cannot get through the next two and a half to three hours. I can't do it. The first thing Hamlet says when he walks onto the stage is, Oh, cursed spite that ever I was born to set it right. Oh, that this too, too solid flesh would melt. I am as much like the hero as her i

cannot do this i cannot do this there's something rotten in the state of denmark and i can't fix it ladies and gentlemen so my my my my um feelings of inadequacy as I walked onto the arena to portray the Prince of Denmark were completely echoed in my first lines by Shakespeare because he worked with his actors and he loved his actors. And he realized that his actors were transmitters of truths above everything else. above everything else. And through the play, the pivotal moment in the play is when the actor is probably at his most exhausted. Right. And probably wondering,

the actor wonders to the self, is this worth it? Am I communicating to my audience? Yeah. Is this worth it? Am I communicating to my audience? Yeah. Are they getting it? Do I stay in the play or do I leave the play? Yeah. To be or not to be is right in the middle of the play.

Yeah. You get through. What is the last word of that speech? That is the question. That's the first line. That's the first line. That's the first one. I don't know what it is. Action.

Yeah. Action. Yeah. Is the last word of that speech. In other words, you have to do it. You have to go on and grasp the action and do it. and do it. So,

my, hopefully, if I'm blessed with the right kind of material, and one isn't always, sometimes you're not. Do the best you can. But if and when I'm blessed, I can recognize

a pattern of human behavior that is sound, that rings true. And because you've experienced the entire spectrum through Shakespeare in terms of on the page. On the page, yes. And because he stretches the intellect and the muscle of the actor. Also, it gave me an appetite and a curiosity for life.

So life plus craft is the filter through which if I'm offered the right kind of choice where I can honestly serve my craft, then I think, now, is this a genuine pattern of human behavior or is this nonsense? Yes. this nonsense. So really, it is only playable for me if it has a truth. When I really am privileged with selecting. You see, one of my many functions as an actor is not to disguise the truth, but to reveal it. Sometimes in conversation, people have said to me, when I perhaps have expressed that I'm in a difficult situation, and they say,

well, you're an actor. Act through it. It's completely the opposite of what I'm trying to do. What they're saying is, act an untruth. Right, it's dishonest. And my role, one of my many roles as an actor,

but I think my crucial role is to reveal a truth to my audience. I remember Peter Brook, with whom I spent wonderful years, particularly in his Midsummer Night's Dream. But then Peter and I stayed in touch. You know, the greatest theater director ever. Oh, yeah. We stayed in touch until his death recently. And he said that a gift of a, let's call it a dramatic event, because we are going now from theater to film and back and forth. Let's define it not seen the event.

Yeah. In other words, if we can either remind the audience of the truth or reveal the truth, or reveal a truth, this is, I believe, the greatest gift that drama can offer to our culture and our society. I would roughly define myself, my tribal function is a storyteller. That is how I fit in.

That is my round peg into my round hole, tribally. Have you always thought that way? When I was four years old, I was taken to the cinema to watch a most beautiful film called Never Take No for an Answer. It was directed, I believe, by Havelock Ellis. It was directed, I believe, by Havelock Ellis. The story is of a little Italian boy, clearly orphaned after the Allied bombing of Italy. And his companion and his sole possession and his love is his donkey, Violetta. And he and the donkey are the town taxi, the town transport system, the town delivery system.

He's like the little lord mayor of the village. And his donkey becomes fatally ill. He asks the local priest if he can take the donkey into the chapel of St. Francis of Assisi, the patron saint, as you know, of animals. And the priest says, we have to demolish the wall to get your donkey in. Not possible. Never take no for an answer. Finally, he gets to the Holy Father. And you never see the Pope,

but you see, bang goes the seal on the letter. He has permission from the Holy Father to have the wall demolished, and the donkey is led in, and there's this wonderful, black and white film, wonderful shaft of light on the little boy and his donkey as they enter the crypt. And we know that either the donkey will go to, will be blissfully in heaven or will be cured. But either way, the boy has his answer that they're blessed. At the end of the film, I, being a sensitive soul.

How old were you? Four. Four or five. Yeah. Was in tears. Yeah. And completely associated with the little boy on the screen. Yeah.

On leaving the cinema, no, the auditorium, the owner of the cinema lifted me above the audience and said, it is Little Pepino. This is Little Pepino. And I have very few childhood memories. That is one of my few absolutely indelible childhood memories that I felt that I wanted to be that kind of a storyteller. The whole experience seems almost like divine intervention. Of course. Yeah. Of course it was.

Yeah. This is what I mean with the voices in my head and in my heart, that I have gone from hand to hand. Well, it's very interesting that when you say about Hamlet that your insecurity before you went on is seemingly like a natural experience for an actor in many occasions. I've talked to other actors. It's called stage fright. Exactly.

But because it totally informed your Hamlet that the entire language of Shakespeare then was able to inform your existential moment and integrate itself into the language of you. Well, I think we should probably give Shakespeare the credit. I think he was ahead of the game because I think he knew. I think his actor said, Will, every time I do this play, I feel sick. Good. Let's have you say to the audience as you walk in,

ladies and gentlemen, I feel sick. That's more or less the first scene. I can't do this, guys. Yeah. I feel that this is a wonderful opportunity, and I feel going from hand to hand, the voices, that I ought to share something,

I want to share something, because I feel that in our conversation, it is a marvelous opportunity to address ourselves to the actor listening, and to the director, and to the writer that there are experiences that vindicate, that transcend, that say,

that are like a hand on the shoulder that say, you know, good for you. Yeah. Good for the truth. I remember playing, I was performing Shakespeare at Stratford-upon-Avon, of course. Yeah. And on the outskirts of Stratford-upon-Avon are a collection of fields called Snitterfield. Snitterfield was where he used to walk, ramble.

And I went for a walk during the run of Hamlet across the fields. And there was a young woman across the field from me. I decided that I would walk distinctly to my right to show her that I was not and did not intend to walk towards her to leave her her privacy. She mirrored my movement across the field. I changed my direction. She mirrored my movement again. We were finally face to face in the middle of the field. I could not escape her.

She was determined to talk to me. And she said, I saw Hamlet last night. How did you know about me? First, I took it as an extraordinary compliment to my acting. But then I thought, no, hang on, hang on, hang on. What she actually said was, how did Shakespeare know about me? This is his eternal greatness. me. This is his eternal greatness. To offer that hand on the shoulder of the audience,

you know that comforting hand that almost brings you to tears when somebody says, I know, I know. And it is that connection, the I know, not from me, but from the truth, transmitting one truth to another. However polarized, however apart we are, sometimes the actor, and I'm really talking those rarefied moments where, you know, the actor is privileged to stand in that spot and to be given that opportunity. Yeah. I remember around about the time I saw Never Take No for an Answer that at school, another of my very rare childhood memories, at school we used to have hymns in the morning, Christian hymns in the morning. And one of the hymns was, I believe it was, You in your small corner and I in mine, it always made me cry. I always found it profoundly moving.

Sometimes we can find something profoundly moving and not recognize the rational reason why it is so moving. It happens every day. Years later, I did discover that tiny gem in me, perhaps, that one day would address myself from my small corner to somebody across a field, across an audience, across an auditorium, across continents in a cinema that will suddenly feel, I'm not alone. Yeah. They know. And I do believe that that is one of the great functions of storytelling and drama. Storytelling is healing.

Yeah. In its right place. Yeah. So when you look at a script, say, for Gandhi, which is, you know, language-wise, not a Shakespearean character, but you could see the truth that Shakespeare enabled you through the spectrum of human emotions

to see the truth that Shakespeare enabled you through the spectrum of human emotions to see the truth of that character. I think also the actor must exercise two important muscles, empathy and transformation. So if one is empathetic by nature, that's a good start. Yeah. And if one is capable of transformation as a craftsman, that's another bonus. So it has to be – the writing has to attract a combination of empathy and a willingness to transform. Where did you learn how to transform?

Well, I just told you, I was 10 years in the Royal Shakespeare Company. Right. We played four different plays a week. Right. I had four plays in my head in repertoire. Right. And therefore, from Tuesday afternoon matinee

to Tuesday evening or whenever it was, I could go from Brutus in Julius Caesar to Frank Ford in The Merry Wives of Windsor. So the transformation was, it's a craft. It's a craft. And it does not, it does not, it cannot clearly affect my psyche. Otherwise, given my history of performances,

as you well know, I would be seriously ill. I have been privileged to wear a yellow star as a Jew in three remarkable occasions for which I'm eternally grateful. And therefore, I must humbly say to myself, I empathize and I will transform to tell your story. In transforming, speaking to you as an actor, are there things, your craft, is there something you do every time that enables you to transform? Is it just from the page up? Do you have control over the choices, obviously, you do

for each character to make? How do you make them? So, clearly, the first choice is whether to accept the role or not. Right. And usually, Sexy Beast, for example, I loved reading the script. I enjoyed reading it thoroughly. And it does read like a Jacobean tragedy. The writing is brilliant. Do you know what moment I remember more than any other moment in that film? It's when you peed outside the toilet. And when I read Don, who is basically Iago, read Don yeah who is who is basically Iago yeah when I read Don I I I had some kind of a

recognition I could see in the first few lines of his of his appearance I could see his pattern and if if a writer can can can present to an a consistent, even if it's full of surprises, like the one you just mentioned, a consistent pattern of behavior that always would interconnect or intersect with him and no one else, then it's a very attractive role for me. Okay. So that's step one, taking the role. And then the next step of transformation. Would be studying the script, studying the dialogue, and then hoping, because then it may be out of my hands, hoping that the three definitions that wonderful Annette Insdorf gave me years ago. Who's that? Annette Insdorf gave me years ago.

Who's that? Annette Insdorf. Yeah. Oh, she's the principal of the Columbia Film School. Okay. Absolute genius. Okay. Knows more about film than probably anybody in North America.

Wonderful woman. And I've been in her company many times, and also we give wonderful talks at the 92nd Y. Yeah. Her definitions are, is the film life-affirming? Is the film worth sitting in an auditorium or by yourself or worth paying for for two hours? Is it worth two hours of your life? Yeah.

And three, is it made in a style appropriate to the material? Now, not all those categories one can read on the page. Either one enters into a very detailed conversation with the director and the DOP to ascertain whether or not in the actor's humble opinion, the film is going to be made in a style appropriate to the material. When I read Schindler's List, which is a work of art, indisputable, I knew and I saw that the film was in black and white. Yeah. And also reading Stephen Zalian's remarkable script, it was clear to me that Stephen would make the film in a style utterly appropriate to the material.

Yeah. in a style utterly appropriate to the material. Yeah. One of the many voices in my head and in my heart is Stephen. On a particular occasion, when I was standing by the monitor and by the camera, and he was filming the exodus of the Jews from the Krakow ghetto. Horrible scene.

And an extremely disturbing scene to watch enacted. I then looked from the scene that I was watching to the monitor and I saw it in black and white.

There was the truth. Absolutely, indisputably, there was the truth. And I remember Stephen turning to me, glowing with a kind of triumph, saying, that's in the movie. that's in the movie. In other words, we have transmitted a gem of truth to the audience. Yeah. Not, that's in my movie.

He didn't say that. Yeah. He said, that's in the movie. Right. And he turned to me in joy, not because he was going to become grander, not because he was going to be applauded, but because a truth had been transmitted, a truth that is utterly incomprehensible. Yes. And yet he had the skill and the passion filtered through the poetry of cinema to share so much with an audience. So many of those things you say that she brought up about film, as an actor, you don't always have control over, obviously. Exactly, exactly. And you can only hope for the best.

I recognize that Stephen would, of course, honor those three. But other times you enter into an exercise and maybe after the film's completed, you feel, ah, yes, made utterly appropriately to celebrate the material, to present this to an audience that way, perfectly successful. So those are the unknowns. So it does involve a leap. It does involve a leap. A faith on your part. But then one must take risks.

Right, right. Otherwise, perhaps nothing is achieved. And all you truly have control over in the project is your work. And if in the aftermath or after the edit, you're not happy with it, hopefully you can just at least say, well, I did my work well. Indeed. To build a rapport with the crew, particularly with the director, and of course with one's fellow actors. Yes. And with the crew, the DOP, the director, the fellow actors. A rapport not based on knowing everyone's name on the crew, isn't he lovely?

But are we all in the same film? Yes. Are we all chasing the same magic equation of cause and effect? I was very fortunate at school to study physics, chemistry, and biology. Before acting? and biology. Before acting? At school. And I did so, I think, I'm sure because I wanted to please my father, who was a doctor. And therefore, in order to please him, to fit in as the good son, quote unquote, I decided to show him that I was going to pursue a medical career. Interesting.

Which, of course, I veered away from or was pulled away from, thanks to the spirits. But the physics, chemistry, and biology have given me a forensic approach to acting that I look for cause and effect, that I look for the inevitable equations. If you add that chemical to that chemical, you're going to get this. Yeah. Or if you increase the pressure there,

you're going to increase the temperature there. Yeah. Or if you stretch something, there's a wonderful law of physics which goes like this. If you overextend a material by stretching it, it will not, it's called the law of elasticity, it will not shrink back to its original shape. Now, apply that to acting.

Very interesting. If you allow yourself, in the sincere commitment to your craft of overstretching yourself, you run a terrible risk of not shrinking back to your original self. Of course, you may have learned something. And of course, you may have grown spiritually, you may have grown in wisdom, but you must not sacrifice yourself for your craft. You must generously give yourself to your craft, but sacrifice, very dangerous. And we've all known actors who've gone into very dangerous areas who simply haven't survived.

Is that true? We all know this. Yeah. Because they took risks that they didn't have control over. Yes. And maybe to compensate. But interestingly, in transformation,

sometimes the expansion and the inability to get back is the transformation of a character. So I was always able to return to my original self, always. Yes, yes. joyfully taken the risk of stretching myself to the limits of certain emotions, feelings, thoughts, sufferings, triumphs. But knowing that I am transmitting a truth, therefore, once the truth is transmitted, I can therefore return to my original self.

When did you know you had a handle on this self? I think, who knows the precise connection to the self? Yes. It's a mystery. Yeah. But I certainly know that if I'm allowed to exercise my function as a storyteller, I feel very energized and alive, and I feel joy. Oh, that's beautiful. Now, how did your father ultimately feel about you shifting trajectories?

He died very young. He never really saw anything like the full trajectory of my career. But he was quite concerned that acting was a lock. Right. This acting lock. Or that you might go broke. Right. This acting lark. Or that you might go broke, maybe. I don't know. Security?

I don't know. Just a lark. It was not what many people would call a proper job. Sure. But I do. Yeah. Sitting here with you, you and I agree. But not an unusual concern for a parent.

Unfortunate. I would say an unfortunate concern. Yes. Because, as Khalil Gibran said, our children go through us. And what about your mom? Did she get to see the work? Yes. Yes, she did.

Okay. okay um so coming back around to you know some of these characters you're talking about we can talk about dali do you find that with every storytelling adventure with every job that you have that you find something new about the human spirit? Because he seems like a different type of role. He existed in a different world. Yes. That would be a really advanced and mature approach to my work. If I looked at every job as an opportunity to explore patterns of human behavior, and if I looked for a little gem in every job as an opportunity to explore patterns of human behavior. And if I looked for a little gem in every job, sometimes the whole role is a massive diamond.

Sometimes there's a little bit of diamond dust somewhere. But yes, I think if one is able to search for that, no matter what the role is, no matter what the role is yeah then then you turn it from something that is perhaps not very gratifying is the wrong word something not very urgent into something that you find a little corner of urgency in there's something about this character that i think is urgent and i'd love to communicate communicate this little idiosyncrasy to the audience. But it's all a marvelous test. And sometimes one is embraced by fate in that you have managed to capture something like

the young lady in the field who said, how did you know about me? What a beautiful thing to say. Yeah. And if I may share another story with you. I have a couple that I think are important because they are to do with conveying an essence, a kind of truth. an essence, a kind of truth. Filming Gandhi, Richard Attenborough, wonderful man, told me that Rajmohan Gandhi, Gandhi's grandson,

is joining us for lunch on the film set. It was a Hamlet moment. The red light and the green light. Oh, God. Here's a test. I'm going to fail. Yeah. I was dressed and made up as the older Gandhi,

exactly like the photograph of Gandhi with little Rajmohan running along the beach. Rajmohan is a little boy holding on to Gandhi's bamboo cane over his shoulder, and they're running and laughing along the beach. Beautiful photograph. And this little boy, as an adult, I was about to meet. Wow. Yeah. And I remember trying to balance the rice and peas on my fork that was spraying all over the place because my hand was shaking so much. That nervous, yeah.

That I had to just stop eating. And all the time, dear Rajmohan looked at me, impersonating his glorious grandfather. Yeah. An impersonator. And after many, many minutes of silence, and you know minutes of silence like hours, he left the table, put his hand on my shoulder, and said, you are being guided by unseen forces.

I wish you well. What a beautiful gift. What a beautiful gift. Another occasion. Does that choke you up? Like in that moment? What kind of emotion? I breathed in and breathed out and said, back to work.

Really? Back to work and do not squander the gift you have just been given. Mm. Mm-hmm. Serve that moment. Mm-hmm. Serve him, serve his generation, and serve the truth that that extraordinary character embodied. Many, many years later, I'm in Prague filming Otto Frank, God bless him, Anne's father.

Yes. Anne was played by Hannah Taylor Gordon, the most exquisite Anne Frank one will ever see on screen, with all respect to others. And there was a knock on my trailer door. And my then assistant on the film, oh, I was in my trailer straightening Otto Frank's tie. And checking the angle of his trilby, putting on his gabardine, ready to go on set. And my assistant said, there is a friend of Otto Frank's just outside the trailer who would love to say hello. And of course I said to myself, here is a test. Here is a test.

So I nervously straightened my tie and walked across my trailer, opened the door, and there was a gentleman on the pavement. And his arms spread wider and wider and wider. And he said, there is my friend. There is my friend. And we hugged for a while. And I went on to the set, cherishing that truth.

It's nothing to do with applause. It's nothing to do with applause. It's nothing to do with all that. It's to do with you in your small corner and me in mine. How can I help? At best, that's what it is for me. Yeah. On the other side of the spectrum, how do you approach playing Eichmann? Ah.

Well, I had occasion... I'm taking out of my pocket a poem by the great Elie Wiesel. And I met Elie Wiesel, I have been blessed by encountering extraordinary Holocaust survivors who have all of, become the voices in my heart and in my head. And I will honor them with my last breath, if necessary.

So, I met Eli, and I had this poem of his in my pocket, because I often carry it on certain occasions when I know that I want to refer to him and remember him. And I met him on a few occasions. I would say that the time I spent with him might be measured in minutes, but I would say that it feels through his generosity that we were friends. Yeah.

Quite extraordinary man. And we both shared the podium together. And I was enormously blessed in that he presented me with an award from the Holocaust Memorial Museum. And I said, Mr. Wiesel, so I have a poem of yours which I love. It's here.

And I was just wondering if you would be kind enough to sign it. And I don't have the inscribed version with me, of course. It's framed on my wall at home. What's the poem? But he inscribed the poem as, it was a very fond inscription, and he referred to me as a lover of truth and memory. Having met him and treasured meeting him, I was able to announce to the Holocaust Memorial Museum gathering and to Mr. Wiesel himself

that if ever I was called upon a film set to participate in any part of his or their story, I would dedicate my performance to him. A short while later, I was offered the role of Adolf Eichmann. And I said, I know what I'm going to do. I'm going to dedicate my performance to Elie Wiesel

and all those whom he lost and all those who've survived and tell their story. Tell their story by making absolutely sure that Eichmann was totally committed to the truth, his truth, of annihilating Europe's Jews. And to say, boys and girls, I'm very sorry to tell you that this was not something that landed from Mars. This was Homo sapiens. This was supposed to be a man from a civilized nation who lived among us and who went to his death saying, I shall fall laughing into my grave, knowing that I have taken six million

with me. His last words. So, of course, I had the poem in my pocket. What is the poem? And dedicated it to Elie Wiesel. You were asking me how I approach Adolf Weichmann. Oh, yeah. It's beautiful.

It makes sense. And the poem, of course, is relevant to the performer. Sure. May I read it to you? Yes, please. Let us tell tales. All the rest can wait. All the rest must wait.

Let us tell tales. That is our primary obligation. Commentaries will have to come later, lest they replace or becloud what they're meant to reveal. Let us tell tales, so as to remember how vulnerable man is when faced with overwhelming evil. Let us tell tales, not to allow the executioner to have the last word. The last word belongs to the victim. It is up to the witness

to capture it, shape it, and transmit it. Genius. Totally. Genius. And of course of course as a as a as a as a storyteller i am i am profoundly honored that that i have been part of the voice of memory. A lover of truth and memory is what Ellie said. And of course we must in our stories bring joy.

And of course we must bring laughter. And of course we must bring truths. Because there are losses that we are still suffering from. Yeah. That we cannot calculate because we'll never be able to calculate that we have lost the cure for AIDS, that we have lost the cure for Alzheimer's, that we've lost the cure for cancer, that we've lost how to listen to other planets, that we've lost how to map the beds of the ocean, thatable losses of the greatest intellect, the cream of European intellect probably. Yeah. No wonder they had to burn the books. What a futile, gormless gesture.

Burning books is clearly an admission that you are inferior. You're so inferior that you have to burn books. So anyway, thank you for allowing me to share, Eli. And I am, as part of the voices in my heart and in my head, certainly my contribution to the memory of the Holocaust is something for which I am eternally grateful. Yeah, so am I. As a Jewish person and as a person person, I'm eternally grateful. What did it mean to you to be knighted? The English, Bernard Levin was, I don't know whether you ever came across him, but he was a great critic and commentator.

And I remember we, at the Royal Shakespeare Company, we presented a wonderful event called Nicholas Nickleby. And it was a massive play, eight hours long, part one, four hours, part two, four hours. And it was the Charles Dickens, Nicholas Nickleby. And Bernard Levin was absolutely baffled at the lack of enthusiasm shown towards this production, Nicholas Nickleby. And he wrote this brilliant essay. I can't remember what newspaper, sorry. But it was an essay, it was an article clearly for global consumption. And it resonated.

Why can't the British enthuse? Now, when I'm in the United States the enthusiasm is palpable yeah when one is in the UK it's there but it's very very disguised almost the point of invisibility on the other end of the scale you have the palace through their extraordinary gesture saying, we have seen you and we have heard you and we appreciate you.

There's the balance. And we appreciate you. There's the balance. And I think it comes out of a collective reticence not to over-enthuse, but it comes out, the enthusiasm comes out in a beautifully ritualized way. And my citation was for my services to drama, which, given our conversation, I hope you can appreciate, meant a great deal to me. Not my services to my ego or my services to, you know, but my services to drama, to dear Elie Wiesel saying, let us tell tales. And it did come at a time when I'd shortly completed the Anne Frank story and was enormously grateful for the awards that it received and we received for it.

And then I was invited to the palace. So yes, wonderful to have Her Late Majesty personally knight me, bestow my knighthood upon me as a British enthusiasm. Good. Wonderful. Could you, in the conversation that we've had here, as a British enthusiasm. Good. Wonderful. Could you,

in the conversation that we've had here, some of these moments seem to be, fill you up, and then you get back to work. Now, when you're standing before the late queen, how was that feeling? I knelt before her. Some when you're receiving the Knighthood Kneel. And her equerry told me to look up because the sword she used was very important.

The sword she used was her father's ceremonial sword that he wore as commander-in-chief during World War II. So it had tremendous historical resonance for us. Yeah? Yeah. And you felt proud? I don't know whether I felt proud. I just felt that I'd been heard, and I was grateful that my language and my culture had said,

good. Was it different, obviously, than winning an Oscar? Well, it's a gift from one's language and one's culture. Okay. Yes. Yes. Yeah.

But the Oscar was also an acknowledgement. It is an acknowledgement from one's peers. Yeah, okay. And that's really to be embraced. Yeah. And I hope during our conversation that we have been able to address ourselves to the puzzled, baffled actor, the director worrying over a script. Yeah. The storytellers.

Sure. The storytellers. And that we say, don't stop telling stories. And don't be frightened of sharing truth with people. Because they are ultimately healing. Even if the truth has tragic implications, one grows from it. From the enormity of the scale, back to Shakespeare, of human experience, of what we can endure and what we can give to each other

in terms of love, in terms of comfort, in terms of courage and encouragement, what we can give. And I do believe that drama in its pure form has its rightful place amongst all those movements in our breathing in and our breathing out. Yeah. Do you tell your sons this?

I have three sons and a wonderful daughter, three wonderful children, and two of my three are actors. Yeah. And I think it's by osmosis, really, and a bit of DNA and osmosis, but we also do talk about the work, yes. Yes. But it's very much a conversation rather than a flow from the patriarch to the child. It's very much a flow. Do they ask for advice?

Not really. They are very much on the same page with me. Oh, good. Yeah. That's good. It is, yes. Well, thank you for talking to me, Sir Ben. I appreciate it.

It's been a great pleasure. Thank you. Okay. Dollyland is playing in theaters. You can watch all of Ben's movies somewhere. Sir Ben's. One of the best. Hang out for a minute.

We've got a special tribute to dads coming up. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snow need with Uber Eats. Well, almost almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats, get almost almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region.

See app for details. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. It was Father's Day yesterday, so to celebrate, here's some dad content from my old radio show, Morning Sedition. We used to call my dad on the air without his knowledge

and ask him to review movies. And this is from 2005, right before the Oscars, in a segment we called Dr. Marin's Movies. Hello. Hey, Dad, what are you doing? Are you sleeping? I'm hanging out in bed. Come on.

Come on. It's time to get up. You want to talk about movies? We've only seen a couple. But what about the Oscars? Have you seen all the Oscar movies? We saw Million Dollar Baby and I saw Sideways for the second time.

Yeah, did you like it the second time? Yeah. What did you think of that? You think that deserves the best writing? That's a hard call. I don't know what their criteria are, what they're looking for. You never do, but it's the politics or whatever. But that Giamsento, I guess is his name.

Giamatti? Paul Giamatti? Paul Giamatti, yeah. I guess is his name. Giammotti? Paul Giammotti? Paul Giammotti, yeah. Yeah. He sort of helped the picture. He was a great sort of constant straight man, and the picture was good. We're pretty selfish guys ourselves. It's something we could identify with, I think.

Yeah, that's true. Hotel Rwanda and The Woodsman were also good. Oh, you saw Hotel Rwanda? Yeah, it was excellent. You think Cheadle deserves the best actor? Well, I think he comes close. I think he's American. He portrayed the Rwandan national perfect as far as accent goes.

And the other people that are up are Clint Eastwood and Jamie Foxx, Leonardo DiCaprio, and Johnny Depp. Do you think Cheadle's got it over those other guys? And Johnny Depp, do you think Cheadle's got it over those other guys? He's got a lot of emotional background in the Eastwood saga from day one. He's just sort of been there and done so much. Yeah, yeah. And you can't deny personal input from the judges as to who they're going to take. Did you see Kinsey?

Saw Kinsey. She's up for the best supporting. It would be a surprise to me if she gets that. How about Sophie Okonido in Hotel Rwanda? Was she good? Yeah, she was good. Maybe she'll get it. That's a heavy picture.

You've got to see that picture. I've been wanting to see it. I haven't gotten to see it yet. I know it looks pretty heavy. I read about the Rwandan genocide, and just reading about it was devastating. Yeah, but this really gets you right in there, almost like Schindler's List, only, you know, only with more action. It's a real shoot-em-up happening in Rwanda, you know. It's very, very, very disappointing that those things are still going on.

It's just cuckoo. All right, so I'm going to see you in a few weeks. Yeah, I'll be there. We've got a whole bunch of green chili, but I don't know how it's going to stay frozen. We've got little packets that Rosie wants to bring you. Don't, you know, don't go crazy. Yeah, I'll be there. We got a whole bunch of green chili, but I don't know how it's going to stay frozen. We got little packets that Rosie wants to bring you. Don't, you know, don't go crazy. Yeah, I know. All right, Dad, I love you.

I'll talk to you later. Thanks for calling. I love you. Bye. Okay, bye. Hotel Rwanda. What a shoot-em-up. You can hear more material from the old radio show as part of the bonus episodes we've been posting on the full Marin for almost a year now.

Just go to the link in the episode description and sign up for the full Marin. Then go listen to our three-part series, Good Morning Geniuses, about the story of morning sedition. You can also sign up at WTFpod.com by clicking WTF Plus. All right. Here's some early experimenting with the Mixolydian scale, which I've done before, but I didn't know the scale. Now I kind of do. guitar solo guitar solo guitar solo guitar solo guitar solo boomer lives monkey and lafonda cat angels everywhere © transcript Emily Beynon