WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1448 - Clifton Collins Jr.

Episode Date: June 29, 2023

A bike accident and a cracked bone delayed Clifton Collins Jr.’s appearance in the garage, but now he’s all healed up and ready to go. Clifton talks with Marc about his extensive career, including films like Traffic, Capote and Nightmare Alley, and his family’s cultural legacy stemming from the Mexican carpa scene to Vaudeville to the Hollywood studio system. Clifton also explains why the film Jockey is so personal to him and how Samuel L. Jackson became a friend and mentor. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Lock the gates! all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what the fuckeristas what is happening what is happening i'm markon. This is my podcast, WTF. Welcome to it. How's it going? Where are we at? Clifton Collins Jr. is my guest today. Now, look, you'll know him if you look him up. He's been in a lot of movies. Traffic, Capote, Westworld, Pacific Rim, Nightmare Alley. The guy is like a legit and working character actor who I've always liked. And I think he's an incredible actor. I'm always engaged by him, but he did this movie that I saw called Jockey. And it's sort of what made me want to talk to him. I don't know how or why I saw it, but I watched it and it's about a jockey and we booked him on that. And then the day he was coming over, he had a bike accident and was injured. And now he's here and he's an intense guy with an interesting story that goes way back in Hollywood, the glorious days of Hollywood.

It's, it's very strange about old Hollywood. You know, my, my girlfriend Kit lives in an old Hollywood building, and one of my favorite Hollywood historians, Mr. Cliff Nesteroff, happens to live in the same building, which I didn't know. And it completely makes sense. It's a particular area of Hollywood, of L.A., that really is probably the most old Hollywood-ish of the old Hollywoods. And there used to be a whole bunch of people that were kind of obsessed with old Hollywood. And I was kind of halfway there, but it seems to be a dying nerdism. I think there was a very specific nerdism that revolved around old Hollywood, old Hollywood, old Hollywood movies. And it doesn't seem to be as many as there used to be. But it is kind of fascinating. You know, the way that the word Hollywood is thrown

around today, it never indicates anything good on either side, oddly. But, you know, the birth of this business, of show business, and the creation of this illusion factory and this dream machine and this, you know, this sort of like artistic haven is kind of fascinating. And I, I don't know, you know, I, it's all going to be gone. No one's going to, no one's going to eventually care anymore, but it's pretty fascinating. That was sort of what was fascinating talking to Clifton because he sort of comes from it, but in a very specific way. It was a very interesting conversation, and I like the guy. Look, for those of you in L.A. here, I'm at Largo this Saturday.

I'm doing the Mark Has Friends Over to do music and comedy. The band is playing. We've got a nice lineup of songs that I'm going to attempt to try. We've got the comedy of Willie Simon and Ali Colbert. The band and I are going to try to do... We seem to be in a zone right now. I'm going to attempt a song by the Velvet Underground that's not as known as their other ones called I Guess I'm Falling in Love.

And I'm going to do He Stopped Loving Her Today, which I'm very nervous about, the Georgia Jones song, which you shouldn't even attempt. But I'm going to do it. We're going to do a Credence tune. almost any other song, seared itself into my brain when I was a very young guy, probably like seven or eight maybe, in the basement with my parents' old Iowa cassette player that had detachable speakers and a box of cassette tapes that they didn't use anymore because they'd moved on to reel-to-reel and records upstairs. And I had that box of records, man. And Cosmos Factory was in there. Bobby Gentry's Greatest Hits was in there. Johnny Cash, Live at San Quentin, that was in that box. Jerry Vale's Greatest Hits.

But man, that opening riff of Up Around the Bend just seared its way into my deepest consciousness. And I still love it. And I don't know if I can nail that riff. We're actually going to play it together, me and Jason. But we're going to try that song. We're going to do, before you accuse me, I'd like to think we're doing the Bo Diddley version or the Credence version and not the Eric Clapton version.

But he sort of kind of owned that song on his unplugged. But it's a great song. We're going to reprise, is that how you say it? We're going to do Warfrat again, my favorite Grateful Dead song, a little psychedelic journey. The reason we're going to reprise. Is that how you say it? We're going to do war frat again. My favorite grateful dead song, little psychedelic journey. The reason we're going to do that song is because when my drummer, Ned, uh, got the song to learn it, he was like, I thought it was the most boring thing I ever heard. And for some reason, when we played it, he was like, Oh my God, that was wild. Like we got out there. It's like a portal into a psychedelic zone, which is what the dead is.

But for some reason, that song in my mind and in my heart does that. And when we play it, it did it too. So we're going to try it again. We'll probably do No Fun by the Stooges. And then we might open with a riff that we pulled from a Status Quo song. I don't think I'll sing the song. We're just going to do a blues jam

because that's what I am, I guess. I'm an older man who's got a bunch of guys I play with, but we're doing cool songs, but you got to, you know, got to throw a blues jam in, don't you? Don't you? And I think something's happened recently that I think I'm happy about. It's happened a couple of times. I think I've crossed some threshold as I transition into an older man here that I'm not unhappy about. I told you I did Heidegger's podcast. And then somebody had tweeted something that they said that, uh, I love seeing Marin. He's such a character. And I was like, finally, finally, I'm a character. That means I'm, I have definition that I don't always see myself, but I has, I think it has something to do with

age and something to do with being more sort of at home in my skin and more something to do. And, and has something to do with me being unavoidably home in my skin and more something to do and has something to do with me being unavoidably me, which I don't think I've noticed before, or I don't think I ever was, but it seems to have sort of settled in because Eric Griffin, the other night at the comedy store, he said, he was like, you should do a hosted talk show like on TV or something. And I'm like, no, no one does that anymore. And we're good. But he's like, but you're just such a character. And I'm like, oh my God, that's twice. That's twice in like a week. And part of me is really kind of like, wow, am I, has it finally happened? Am I finally a character? I hope so. I've been waiting to be a character my

entire life. And maybe it's here. Maybe I'm at the right age for it. This is where you move into your character years. I'm beginning my character years. Did I mention I'm back at Dynasty Typewriter on July 11th, 18th, and 25th? Those are all Tuesdays. You can go to WTFpod.com for tickets for those. So look, again, Clifton Collins Jr. was supposed to be here a while back, but it was a delayed booking because

of the bike accident that he literally had on the day he was supposed to come over. And when he finally came over, we got in it. And it's quite a story. And he's quite an actor. So this is me talking to Clifton. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs and mozzarella balls, yes, we can deliver that. Uber Eats.

Get almost, almost anything. Order now. Product availability may vary by region. See app for details. Be honest. When was the last time you thought about your current business insurance policy? If your existing business insurance policy is renewing on autopilot each year without checking out Zensurance, you're probably spending more than you need. That's why you need to switch to low-cost coverage from Zensurance before your policy renews this year. Zensurance does all the heavy lifting to find a policy,

covering only what you need, and policies start at only $19 per month. So if your policy is renewing soon, go to Zensurance and fill out a quote. Zensurance. Mind your business. Where did I see you last? Pull that mic into your face. It was at Houdini's house. Oh, right, for that. What were we doing there?

It was an event. It was a celebration. It was like a network did it, right? It was for a film, was it not? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I was doing press for Chalky at the time. I feel like it was a party for a couple of movies under one. That's what it feels like. Yeah.

It was a big deal. It kind of was. It was like, yeah. It was fun. It was pretty fun. That house was kind of wild. I love that house. You do?

Yeah, I've had a couple parties there. Yeah? I mean, not me personally, but I've been to. You've been to? Oh, yeah. It seems a little worn down, you know, like half a museum, half an event, you know, like an event hall. You know how things just be— The way they set that one up, yeah.

But what I went to before was actually, I think, a birthday party, so it felt much more intimate. Oh, right, right. So it felt more like a house party. Oh, okay, because you can kind of wander around, and there's rooms that look like museum rooms almost, like Houdini rooms. Mm-hmm. It just looks a little worn down. You know when places are like hotels or cool places are cool at the beginning, but then too many weddings happen? Yes, sir. And they just take the soul out of the place.

It really does. Yeah. Just weddings just suck the energy out. How did you get all fucked up? This buddy of mine named Mr. Cartoon got me back into BMX bikes. Yeah, well, there's two red flags. Mr. Cartoon got me into BMX bikes again in my 50s. Yeah.

Okay. That should have been. And it gets worse from there because everybody thinks I was jumping cars or doing some crazy stunt. And I was not. Sadly, I just didn't even end though. I just plowed in front of my driveway going to the gym. I was like, I'll just get a nice little comfy bike ride on my red line to the gym, which is only two blocks. I feel like a douchebag driving a 911.

Like, here's my 911, two blocks. I'm like, ah, let me ride the red line. Yeah. And I went up to crank it really big. And I stood up like you did, like a teenager. Sure. Yeah. And then because it's a freestyle bike, as I started to go over the speed bump, it wasn't

quite over the 90 degree angle. And it went backwards. Oh, okay. And I was standing. Yeah. Oh, so you went back? So the whole way, just going, ow, straight to the bottom. What'd you break?

It was a, I cracked the bone. Which one? That's a good question. A leg? I wouldn't look at the x-ray. Oh, it's a leg? Yeah, my, it was cracked. The ligament wasn't torn.

Actually, the ligament tore, broke the bone. Yeah. It stuck to it. So, but it's in place right now and it's all healing and I'm really, I mean, I got a brace, but we expect to, we're hoping to get it completely back to regular walking by the 14th. Yeah, there you go. Don't do anything

weird and dumb at a certain age. Thank you. Yeah, I mean I hike and stuff but I see guys up there, like lately, because I'll run down the hill, you know, but like you start to realize you're very fragile. You get to a certain, you know, you're going to break to realize that you're very fragile. You get to start, you know,

you're going to break a hip. You know, it's a joke, but we're at the hip-breaking point now. I am anyways. I don't know how old you are. I'm 50.

I'll be 53 in June. Yeah, so we're in hip-breaking zone. But even go back even before that. It's like, think about like when I did Tigerland

with Schumacher, Colin Farrell's first film. It's like, I was the oldest guy who I've looked the youngest. My whole family's like that on the Mexican side. And I was doing the boot camp. I knew I had to do boot camp.

I'd already done boot camp for Dead Presidents. So I was like, hell, I can't look like an old guy, even though I am the oldest. So let me start pre-boot camp at home. So going, hiking high in Griffith Park and all these other places with the 20 pounds on my back. Oh, really? And next thing you know, like you said, I'm starting to injure myself because I'm pushing myself. Going hiking high in Griffith Park and all these other places with the 20 pounds on my back. Oh, really?

And next thing you know, like you said, I'm starting to injure myself because I'm pushing myself. I'm not a boot camp trainer. I'm just doing things that I know I did in boot camp. So I had to go back to my therapist and tighten me up before I actually hit the real boot camp. A therapist, you mean like a trainer? A physical therapist. Oh, really? Yeah. So you've always been sort of an immersive actor?

Yeah. You do the whole thing? Yeah. You do your own stunts sometimes? All the time. All the time? Damn near. I mean, I'm not going to lie, I'm pretty good at it. I've been doing martial arts since I was like 14. Yeah. So fighting's a natural thing. I started Muay Thai in 1987. Really? Yeah, before people knew what Muay Thai was. Yeah. From Taekwondo, American Freestyle, Muay Thai, all kinds of weapons, nunchaku, staff, bow, stars.

You can do it? You can do stars? Oh, throwing stars, a ballet song. If you had a ballet song, right? I'm not even sure I know what that is. Oh, the throwing stars?

I know what throwing stars are because I remember Kung Fu when I was a little kid. Oh, with David Carrington. Sure, sure, sure. The ballet song, Butterfly Knives. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You can do those? Oh, my God, yeah. Nunchucks? Yeah, a little kid. Oh, with David Carradine. Sure, sure, sure. The ballet song, Butterfly Knives. Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. You can do those? Oh, my God. Yeah. Noomchucks. Yeah. Noomchucks. Oh, yeah.

Oh, my God. So once you, how come, have you done any major martial arts movies? I've been wanting to for a long, I got really close on a few. You better get it in now, buddy. No shit. You are not lying. Time's running out for the martial arts movies. It's interesting.

I've had a few mentors recently talk to me about not doing my stunts. Just one can allege it's random. Sam Jackson. Yeah. Are you guys your pals? He's a father figure to me. Really? He's a dear, dear.

Yeah, he's the closest thing I got to a dad. Well, how'd you meet him? Like, which movie? I did 187 with Kevin Reynolds. Like, you know, you're one of these guys where you're, you know, a real character actor and you've done a million movies.

So everybody sort of knows you. I just look different. I have to profile people. Yeah, a little bit. But I mean, but people must come up to you all the time

like, oh, you're that guy. That guy. You have nine out of ten times it's like, you're that scary guy. Right? Well, you can tell by the look in their eye.

Which movie they know you from? They're very respectful. I don't get, like I was, I forget tell by the look in their eye. Which movie they know you from? They're very respectful. I don't get, like I was, I forget when they were, Mila Kunis and I were going to get some coffee and we were just walking

and talking, shopping and stuff and she's got the crazy fans because of her TV show back in the day and it was around that time and then my fans were always very respectful

and oftentimes, like, you know, ex-convicts or big motherfuckers. From what movies do you think it was? Well, when it's that case, it's usually like the 187s or the 999s or the Crank 2. Right. Do all of them have numbers in the title?

They're all. Some wish. They're pretty, just the more violent ones. Yeah, yeah. Dirty, about when I played, it was a Rampart Police Scandal. Okay. That I did with Cuba Gooding. Yeah. Yeah. violent one it's a dirty about when i played a it was a rampart police scandal okay that i did with cuba gooding yeah yeah so it's such a big and uh vast career you've got going there but

so but sam jackson so so i i uh you know this is a movie as you know uh it's very rare to shoot in sequence oh yeah meaning from beginning to end like page one to the end this is 187 yeah yeah and um this one we shot in sequence yeah so we had two weeks of rehearsal um so you get to grow as not only as as actors and as friends but you get to grow as the character yeah in the film and story yeah um and then by the very end like i think two days before uh the the big finale scene where we're we've got guns to our head playing russian roulette i had to bury my father to a suicide. Your dad killed himself?

Mm-hmm. Hung himself in a closet, so I had to... Oh, my God. So to have a gun to your head two days after you buried him is a very surreal thing, and you're going toe-to-toe

with somebody you admire, respect, look up to... Jackson, yeah. ...and you're learning from as much as you can. I mean, I stopped smoking weed for that film. Yeah. Oh, on day five of rehearsal, he gave me as you can. I mean, I stopped smoking weed for that film. Yeah.

Oh, on day five of rehearsal, he gave me a spanking. I grabbed my bong and I cleaned it out with 420 and I put fresh water and I went and bought flowers

at the gas station. Yeah. And I was like, I love you, but for the next three months, you are now a vase. And I put it on top of my fridge with flowers

and it stayed there until the end. Because Sam told you not to smoke? Not at all. I just saw how badass he was. He knows everybody's lines. Yeah.

He reads the script three times. He knows everything. Yeah. Camera movement everywhere. And on, so he paced himself four days of rehearsal. Yeah. On the fifth day of rehearsal was the big finale. And the monologues, the original monologues were even bigger than what ended up in the

movie. Yeah. And I watched Samuel just sit there and look at, well, he put his head down. He wasn't, I could tell for the first time I was looking at Samuel, I'm like, wow, he's not paying attention to anybody now. He's like just looking down at this grid. And I said, okay, well, I got a 357. I said, hey, Sam, I just want to show you it's all clear. And he wasn't looking at me.

Yeah. He's totally ignoring me. Yeah. And it's just psychos. Yeah. Yeah. I knew what was going on. Yeah.

So I was like, I said, okay. I said, all right, bro, what's just psychos. Yeah. Yeah. I knew what was going on. Yeah. So I was like, so I was like, I said, okay. I said, all right, bro, what's clean?

I said, clack. I closed it. I got, you know, you hold the sides in your hands. You're fumbling through. It's rehearsal.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then Samuel, and then Kevin goes, Hey, you guys ready? And then Samuel goes,

picks up the sides and just throws them on the floor. He goes, yeah, man. I was like, Oh fuck. I'm holding my sides and my little freaking 357 like a little girl. I'm just like, oh, okay.

You got bigger speeches than me, but okay. And then I'm like, oh, hey, Mr. G. And he just goes, how was it, teacher? And his eyes are like. So Samuel can control this eye and this eye if I'm crying. He can drop one tear, two tears, three tears. Come on. I swear to God.

Ask him yourself. John Barrymore could do it and Sam Jackson could do it. John Barrymore, that's a deep reference. Yeah,

I come from deep roots. So, Samuel was clearly holding the tears and I was so captivated and mesmerized. I was like, I just wanted to apologize

for breaking into this. I'm so sorry. Here, I'm sorry, Mr. G. I didn't mean to be a bad student. breaking into this. I'm so sorry. Here, I'm sorry, Mr. G. I didn't mean to be a bad student. But that's not what the dialogue says. So I had to stick to the dialogue. But then also,

I wanted to step out and just watch the motherfucker act. And I was like, holy shit, this is magic. I'm like, boom. And then when it was over, like five pages, it's very intense. And then Kevin Reynolds,

all right, man, what'd you think? I said, what do you want to wife did you definitely kevin didn't you just see what happened yeah he chewed me up and spit me out yeah i said what do you want to do can i please just have like to keep please just give me five i'm ten minutes yeah ten would be great before that before you went action well i just well this is just rehearsals yeah we're not even on warner brothers yet oh really a little room

yeah this is just day five of rehearsal. Yeah, yeah. And I'm just like, yo, Kev, please, can I just please go outside? He goes, yeah. I said, I just look. I know it's rehearsals, but I'm not going to be by his side in this scene today. It's not. I'll be happy just to see the bottom of his souls as he runs way ahead of me.

Yeah. But at least we'll get some work done. Right. Because this is just making me go home and clean my ball and get turned into a me. Yeah. But at least we'll get some work done. Right. Because this is just making me go home and clean my ball and you turn it into a vase. Yeah. Because I need three extra brain cells. Five, ten, one. I don't care.

Yeah. I just, look, I don't know how many extra brain cells. I'll take one. If it's one, I'll take it. So that built the relationship. How did Samuel, you know, handle the situation around your father dying? He was, hey, I make one phone call, I take care of everything for you. Really? Yeah.

In terms of like... Like a funeral burial, all of that. Oh, no shit. And he was a veteran, so we had a veteran's war. And I felt that I had to try to be a man and handle this. Yeah. I'm a Clifton Collins Jr. Yeah.

Even though at that time, I was carrying my grandfather's name for film, Gonzales Gonzales. Double Gonzales. Yes, sir. So, but what was your relationship with your father? At that particular time, I hadn't been speaking to him for probably three and a half, four months. Really?

Yeah, my sister and I would alternate. Just two of you? He was an alcoholic. When I'd gotten this role, I had to like three or four callbacks. You know when you get another callback and you get another callback. Like, oh my God, I'm that much closer. You get another callback. Like, what, another callback? Three? You callback like oh my god i'm that much closer you get another call like what another callback three yeah you know like a four right like this is ridiculous it must be down to me and one other guy or something you just don't

know yeah um and then i finally told my dad that i got it goes and he was depressed he was like oh that's nothing son it's it's that's just you know what i'm like dad i worked so hard for this this is like a lead-up but this is Sam Jackson coming off Pulp Fiction. I don't know who that is, son. They're like, yeah, but he's huge. This is like, everybody's watching. Yeah, that's just, that's nothing, son. Oh, really?

I was like, I can't have this negative input when I worked so hard for this. You know this is my life. This is what I love to do. But was that your whole life with the diminishing business? No, just this particular film. I think his own personal life was in, he was just getting to a depressed stage. What was your, but you, now it was his father that was the actor?

No, no, that was my mother. Oh, so your dad was like. He was Colin Senior. Okay, and, but your whole life he was just a boozer? Oh yeah, for sure. Was your parents together? They were together. He left when I was eight years old.

That's the earliest childhood memory I have is him leaving. Really? Yeah. It's usually the traumatic episode, the earliest trauma that you have as a child. Sure, of course. Yeah. But you stayed in touch with him? Oh, yeah.

He was around? He was. Yeah? He went to prison for a year for manslaughter. What? Yeah. Yeah prison for a year for manslaughter. What? Yeah. Yeah. Did a year for manslaughter.

That doesn't seem like a long time to do for manslaughter. He was white. Oh. White in the 70s. Did he kill the guy? Yeah, he did. What was that about? He was just drunk driving.

Oh, that's terrible. And the dude he killed was rich. My dad was not. He lived in a trailer park. Really? Yeah, and he had a genius IQ. He was insanely smart and very witty. Your dad was? Yeah. He just squandered it? Where does he come from? He came from

around here? He grew up here? Yeah, Culver City. Culver City. Went to Culver High with my mom. Yeah. Yeah. Huh. Yeah, my grandparents were probably, in all honesty, probably the first Mexicans to own land in Culver City because it was against the law for Mexicans to own land, I think up until 1968. So that's your mom's family? Yeah.

And John Wayne helped them work that loophole. You always got to go to the higher ups. To John Wayne? You got to go to John Wayne. That doesn't get much higher than that. Next thing you know, Duke makes a call. Next thing you know, my grandpa owns the whole block, a house across the street, a house across the street, an apartment complex by Veterans Park. Really?

Yeah, yeah. Apartment complex. And his whole block had apartments that he owned. And the four garages that were meant for the apartments, he just filled with old cars. Really? He loved working on old cars. So your mom's dad was a character actor as well, a studio guy. He was a legitimate vaudevillian, one of the first studio.

He was the first, I think, one of the studio players, Latino. Right. How did your mom get tied up with your dad? Culver High. Oh, yeah. Oh, so they were high school sweethearts? Yeah. And also, to get out of the house, you had to get married.

And so she got married when she was a kid? She didn't want to get the fuck out of the house. Yeah. And also, to get out of the house, you had to get married. And that was, so she got married when she was a kid? She didn't want to get the fuck out of the house. Right. She was like, and she confessed, she's like, look, honestly, part of it was like, I just wanted to get out of the house. Yeah. I'm like, that doesn't help me. How old was she when she had you?

I think 25. Oh, okay. And my dad was a little younger. Yeah. So your dad was just a boozy ne'er-do-well? My dad was a little younger. So your dad was just a boozy ne'er-do-well? He was just a real smart, he was boozy, drank a bunch.

Yeah, I mean, there were days where he'd come to pick us up on a Saturday morning and just be shit-plowed. My grandma would be like, no, Kip, you're not taking the kids. Really? Oh, yeah. He got pulled over two blocks in a residential neighborhood in the 70s for not wearing a seat belt. So you know you got to be driving squirrely in a residential area. To get pulled over. In the 70s? Yeah.

Oh, my. What did he do for jobs? He worked in the printing industry. Yeah. With printing stuff. But then he learned how to work. I mean, he had a genius IQ, so he learned how to work the system. Yeah.

And veteran benefits and all this other stuff. But then he would help people in the trailer park with their issues. And I feel like he had a stronger purpose whenever he was helping other people. Because at his funeral, I had all these people coming up to me. He goes, he helped me with this. He helped me with that. They were trying to take my land or they were trying to take my trailer. They were trying to this and your dad helped me get some money. And I was like, wow, he helped a lot of you guys. But he wasn't college educated or anything? No. Huh.

Just knew numbers? He just knew how to work a lot of things. Was he a gambler? He could build stuff. Yes. Yeah? Now, that ties into Jockey because that ending speech in Jockey is very much my childhood with him. Because on those weekends that he did show up to pick us up.

Because otherwise he just wouldn't show up. Right. He'd just leave us at our grandparents. There's like one out of three times I'd say he wouldn't show up. Yeah. So oftentimes my weekend would be just going across the street to the liquor store. Yeah. Picking up racing forms.

He taught me how to pick the horses, the weight conditions, jockey, this, that. He taught me all that. When you were how old? Nine. So you knew that shit. Yeah. Going into that movie. It was me all that. When you were how old? Nine. So you knew that shit going into that movie. It was in your blood. Yeah.

But you weren't a jockey, but you understood the weight that was on jockeys. Oh yeah, for sure. 100. So he would get a couple things of booze. He'd meet his other trailer park friends from various trailer parks. And then we'd walk to Hollywood Park. And that was like

him getting plowed with his friends while I'm gambling on a horse trying to win money because I really need dough at nine years old. Yeah. How'd you do? How'd he do? Was he good at it? Was I good at it? Well, no.

I had nine. I was the one picking the horses. Oh, you were? Yeah. He taught me how to read the program. Oh, that's funny. He was just busy drinking with his friends. He'd sit there while I'd gamble.

He'd bet a couple things. But, you know, I remember I knew when he would win because we would have a good Christmas. My sister and I would get. Oh, yeah. Yeah, and I think that was only like one time. You know, the horses is such a classic, you know, debauchery. You know, it's a classic gambling. Like, you know, guys who like, you know, they go to the horses.

I don't have the gambling thing. I don't either. You know, but I wish I did because guys who like are you know, they go to the horses. I don't have the gambling thing. I don't either. You know, but I wish I did because guys who like are like on the horse, they love it. But I mean, it destroys their life, but they love it. Yeah. Just go spend the day at the horse track. You know, I got to tell you, in Northern Phoenix at Turf Paradise, it was really interesting. When you were shooting the movie?

For sure. It was a live track. Yeah. So we were shooting while there was real races going on. Oh, yeah. And when you get into the vip room yeah it was like wow you guys spent all your money to be in this view it's like vegas minus the hot girls and minus the optimism of winning because it's very drab and dismal yeah you just feel like the dregs of humanity like later in the evening before the last race,

you got the hardcore gamblers that gamble around the world on the TVs. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. There's no real food. It's very like... Not a fun atmosphere. Oh, my God.

It was like... Yeah, it's a sickness, dude. But that movie was great. I mean, I really thought it was a great film. Thank you, brother. And I thought it was deep and I thought like you did like... It looked like you did some fucking real work. I got, I really thought it was a great film. Thank you, brother. And I thought it was deep, and I thought, like, you did, like, it looked like you did some fucking real work. I got dropped to 143.

You wrote that movie? I wrote pieces of it. Yeah. I sat every morning and did rewrites with the director. Oh, okay. And that whole monologue at the end, I rewrote that morning. Pulled it right from your dad? Well, it's funny, because we were very consistent in the rewrites and the changes that we were doing up until the very end where I kept waiting.

I was anxious. Like, we're going to get this rewrite. Like, we've been talking about this. And then finally I get it, and it was a very different ending. There was no monologue. Yeah. It was both of us losing and both of us. Both you and Natsan.

Yeah. Yeah. We're just watching it in silence. I'm like, that's so anticlimactic. But we didn't build the film for an anticlimactic. That's a very mechanical thing that, and it's hard to pull off. Yeah. You got to be like a Petra Volpe or something like that to pull off.

So I can't, the ending now is like a passing of the baton kind of like, right. Yeah. And that whole speech too. It's like, I wrote six different versions of that speech from 630 in the, 630 in the morning to like 815 AM. And they're like, oh my God, can we take these? I got photos. Cause they took, they love it when they see shit all over the floor. Cause you know, I'm just like 8.15 a.m. And they're like, oh my God, can we take these? I got photos because they love it

when they see shit all over the floor because they know I'm just like mad scientist. Like, oh shit, Clinton's got some shit for us. So they took, can we take it?

I'm like, please just take it, take it. And out of that they carved out, they took pieces and they put that into the monologue

and I read it and I'm like, oh, all this pays off and works. Let's go shoot and have a great day. So like,

it was one of those movies where it's tight, it's specific. You know, it's a movie about, you know, aging and about despair in a way. And about, like, you know, whether a life was wasted or not. And then there's hope and then there isn't. And then, you know, but to do it in that world which is such an odd world uh to be a jockey you know what did you do did you go meet with jockeys because oh i spent every day with them yeah every day oh i told them i said look are those real jockeys in the movie oh yeah all of them there's just uh moisis arias who's amazing plays my son he's a jockey no no he's

a fantastic actor okay a bunch of stuff. Yeah, he seems, he was real good, yeah. And my main girl. But everybody else was either, they were all from the track. Yeah. So I,

so day one, and this is my second film with Greg and Clint. Yeah. We did a, Trent's Peckles won the audience award at South by Southwest.

Yeah. So they already knew how I flowed and how I did rewrites. And that's what they expected. This is the director and the producer? Yes, sir. Yeah. And Greg Cuidar directed that one.

Yeah. And Clint Bentley produced it. Yeah. And then on Jockey, they switched roles. Right. And Clint directed and Greg produced. Yeah. So I told, so they knew I'd want to be there early because that's just the way I roll.

They knew I'd want to hang out. And we stayed at like a courtyard Marietta.ott, a real dingy place, which is perfect. You don't want to stay at a Four Seasons. That just doesn't fit with the movie. No, no, no. You don't. And also budget-wise, it helps. Well, yeah, because we had $350,000 for this movie.

You can stay at the Marriott courtyard. Yeah. You can frame it however you want, but we're not paying for the other one. Pretty much. And then I wouldn't want to stay there. Sure, I get it. And I drove out there from L.A., I get it. And I drove out there from LA.

To Phoenix. Yeah, and I brought my clothes. She was like, Andy, bring your clothes and all this stuff. So I brought all that stuff out and I told the jocks, I said, look man,

I know you guys are probably fans of some of my stuff so I don't want you guys to be shy. I'm here to help you guys. If you need me to shovel shit, wash your horse,

anything you guys need me to do shovel ship wash your horse right anything you guys need me to do i'm just gonna be picking up game and hanging out was this the first time like you know actively around horses no uh west world oh yeah yeah um i did a i did a pilot while i was a jockey i was a cartel owner yeah i owned up my own jockey uh my horse yeah one of those thoroughbreds and that horse took off on me yeah yeah that was a what movie is that it was a pilot that never got picked up oh yeah but so all right so you tell these jockeys you know i'm in i'm of you whatever i need and what they what they make you do where you shovel and shit pretty quick um no i think they were too i just wanted the whole i

just didn't want to be viewed as a an actor i want to be viewed as a like a friend and an an employee or just a partner. And I'm there to help them. And if you want to hear some stories about a movie, please ask me. I'd love to share. Don't be shy about anything. Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. What they want to hear about. I think Boondock Saints was a good one. Crank 2 was a good one. What else came up? I think the one I remember the most is Traffic for some reason. Oh, yeah. That's a fun one, too. That's heavy, man. Yeah.

Yeah. Frankie Flowers, the gay assassin. And he was not happy. Yeah. Not gay pre-gay. Yeah. It was like, you know, it was a crazy character. And, you know, when they beat you down, the way you played that was so devastating.

It was. I remember the AD coming to my trailer. Oh, Mr. Collins, we're getting ready to shoot this scene. I said, yes that was so devastating. It was. I remember the AD coming to my trailer. Oh, Mr. Collins, we're getting ready to shoot this scene. I said, yes, I'm aware. Thank you. He goes, how do you want to do it? I says, what do you mean?

I says, what do you want to wear? I said, well, the scene seat here says I'm naked in a chair. Right. Well, still, Stephen wants to know what do you want to wear? I'm like, the scene says I am naked in the chair. Well, do you want a thong? Do you want to cover? No, it's Soderbergh.

I want to be naked. Youh. I want to be naked. You know, I want to be naked. I'm not, you know, this isn't. You're not afraid. You know, this isn't Magic Mike or anything. It's like, let's make this right. Yeah. Yeah.

And you did it. Yeah. It was funny because my manager called me like two weeks later to sign a nudity waiver. Yeah. And then when he found out from production, I had already signed it without him looking at it or anything. Yeah, yeah.

It's fucking Soderbergh. Yeah. Of course I'm going to sign it. I don't care what that thing says. You got to do it. I want to do it. Yeah. It's like,

you're going to have to stop me from not doing it. Yeah. Unless Steven has his reasons, then I'll listen to him. You respect that guy. I love him. I love and respect him.

If you want to steer me into a wall, there's a reason for it. Yeah, yeah. And I'm going to go right into it. But you don't feel that about all directors. I love him. I love and respect him. If you want to steer me to a wall, there's a reason for it. Yeah, yeah. And I'm going to go right into it. But you don't feel that about all directors. No, sir. I didn't do any of the, do you want to be in this scene for Tigerland?

I'm like, no, I've got to cry in the next scene, so I'd like to go back to bed. These other guys, it's their first film film so they've got to pay their dues and do the shower scene the unwritten shower scene in Tiger Lane because in Vietnam people really take showers that's the whole thing

about Vietnam yeah yeah so shower scene number seven yeah because I'd be like because it was really it was so cold

in Camp Blanding, Florida yeah and I had a heavy heavy scene so you know you like you kind of psych yourself out you go to these places yeah and then I'm

I'm like well Colin Farrell and all these other cats have to these places. Yeah. And then I'm like, well, Colin Farrell and all these other cats have to do this scene and I'm not in it so I can rest and get to that place. Yeah. And then I hear, oh fuck. I'm like, Mr. Colin, like yeah. He goes, cause I play private mitre, like mitre. I said, you wanna be in the scene?

Like, do I want to be in the scene? I was sleeping, brother. I got this fucking big, are we on my scene right now? The one where I break down shit? Yeah. It's like, no, no, no, no, no. It's just a scene they decided to add. I'm like,

a scene they decided to add. Is it a shower scene? Well, you know, Colin Farrell's doing it and so-and-so's doing it. Right, but they have to. I don't. I auditioned for this film.

No, I have a big scene coming. I need to focus for it. Absolutely not. Please don't ever knock on my door for any additional scenes of the sort. And what do you attribute that to? Attribute what?

The adding scenes and expecting you to do it. Is that a director decision? Who knows? I mean, your mind can wander wherever it wants to, and I'm sure we could all figure it out. Although I adored Joe. I had fun working with him. But with Jockey,

this was sort of a passion project? Yes, without a doubt. And also Clint Bentley and Greg Cueto. They're like brothers to me. I love them so much. They've got so much respect for craft, and they're such amazing, open-hearted, generous collaborators.

And it did well at the festivals, right?hearted, generous collaborators. And it did well at the festivals, right? Oh, yeah. I won Best Actor at Sundance. I got nominated for an Independence Award. But nothing from the Oscars? No, nothing from the Oscars. We were hoping for that.

And they were optimistic at a point, but... Did they pay for any juice? Seems like you got to pay for the juice. It does, doesn't it? I'm learning. I'm learning this after 30 years. Except for that movie I was in with Andrea Riceboro, where her friends just got on board. Oh, to Leslie.

I love that one. So she reminded me of my dad. Oh, yeah? Oh, no. I swear to God, Leslie killed that. Leslie had such beautiful nuances and tics. Yeah. I was watching it going, okay, either one, you're a recovery addict. Or two, you have a relative that was an alcoholic.

Or three, you went to AA and you studied people. Yeah. There were some beautiful. I was just like, I was kind of jealous. Yeah. I was like, oh, that's such a good choice. Like, oh, why didn't she come up with that? She's good, right?

She's insane in it yeah but yes so and you saw all the hoopla that came from them but also it's not backed by a giant studio right

or any or a big consulting firm or any sort of publicity you know it just feels like I think that's gonna happen more now I think so too

it just feels I started to it seemed like the curtain was opening a little bit well it just seems like if you can figure out whatever do by by, by whatever means necessary, rally people to your movie.

The big problem is there's too much shit and nobody watches a lot of shit. And these consultants and publicists just forced the shit down the pipe and people were like, I didn't see it, but it must be good because I like her or whatever. But then like somehow or another, she rallied people to watch the movie. You know, she acted the fuck out of that thing. Oh, I was mesmerized. I was mesmerized. Yeah.

Literally. And again, she reminded me of my dad. So it's like to have those. Because, you know, you could do the usual drunk thing. There's been drunks throughout, you know. She didn't do any of the usual drunk things. No, exactly. That's what made it so mesmerizing.

It was wild, dude. It was beautiful. Because, like, you know, when you're at that level of alcoholism, you're not going to be like, oh, yeah, blah, blah, blah. You're just in a different zone. You've adapted to most of it. It's a minor shift. Yes. Right?

Yes, yes, yes, yes. Fuck, dude. So what happened with Jockey? Did you get mad? No, I'm not going to get mad. It's funny. I had this conversation with Samuel. He's your counsel.

Pretty much. Yeah. My go-to guy. And I said, in all honesty, I was just happy to have a seat at the table, truth told. Yeah. Like, it's Independent Spirit Awards. Right. But you want people to see the fucking movie.

That's the other thing. It's like, that's the weird thing. Like, even like, I was talking to Tim Blake Nilsen. Oh, I love Tim. Yeah. You've worked with him before. I have. Yeah. What movies? Nightmare Alley's like, that's the weird thing. Like, even like, I was talking to Tim Blake Nelson. Oh, I love Tim. Yeah. You've worked with him before. Yeah, I have. Yeah. What movies? Nightmare Alley. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then I wanted to do the Western with him because Patsy was a friend of mine. And when he called me, I was like, oh, man, I'd love to do

this. Which one? Old Henry? Yes. But I know Patsy. I've known Patsy from the country. Who's Patsy? Patsy's the director. Okay. From the country music world okay because i directed a chicken fried for zach brown and we won a cmt award oh you're a video director yeah um and that's where i met that's where i first met posse so we stayed in touch he crashed at my house and he called me to tell me about this film then we got tim blake i'm like oh fuck i mean tim blake's a beast he is right oh he's a beast he's freaking insanely talented yeah yeah so you can feel it dude and a good oh yeah very good dude you watch him you're just captivated instantly. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so, but you've worked with some big directors, man. Right? Yes, sir. You've worked with all of, in Erudu. I loved him. Yeah. On Babel. Yeah. That

movie's another one. Like between Traffic and Babel, those are big pieces, man. That was another piece I rewrote too. You did? I did, because I remember when he called me, I was doing this indie in Louisiana called Little Chenier. Yeah. And I was playing Cajun.

I was playing Cajun down in the South Bayou's Dale. Yeah. When he called me, I had to talk to him on the phone. And then he calls me and he says,

ah, Clifton, this piece, I love you for this role. And he was basing it on another audition that Francine Maisler had done and showed him something. It was completely not really related to a Border Patrol agent. Yeah.

But he saw and he wanted me. So he pitched it like the opening scene to Midnight Express with Brad Davis. Yeah. With the tension and the hash and the guys are coming onto the plane and beautiful. On the bus. Wasn't it a bus? Was it the bus? Where he's pulling the hash off of?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So he's beat by beat. He's painting this picture for me. I said, I love it. And he goes, you know the movie with the man with the hat?

I'm like, oh yeah, Midnight Express. He goes, yes. The actor, Brad David goes, yes. And I'm just like literally finishing his sentences.

And I'm like, I said, Alejandro, I said, this is a beautiful scene but that's not the scene in your screenplay. He goes, I'll fix it for you.

And Alejandro's filled with so much damn passion, he cannot say no. Yeah. If you're that passionate, I want to jump on a boat and be as passionate as you and help fulfill your passion.

Yeah. That's how you feel. It's a team effort. Yeah. So we get there and I've got a lot of police resources and stuff. You do?

Yeah, that was the ride to hell. That was so scary. What? Because I get to LAX. They want to fly me coach. I'm like, wait a minute. Brad Pitt's in this movie.

What do you mean I'm flying coaches? They've never flown me coach on any movie. Something's going on. It's a Mexican movie. I called my new managers. Oh, you got to watch out, dude. It's my people, my people. They're like, you're overreacting.

I'm like,acting no I'm not dot the i's and cross the t's we about to hit a shit storm like whatever calm down so I'm at Tucson airport it's tiny

like when you get there they'll be waiting for you I said great I get there I'm like hey guys where's my driver they said they're there they've been there

I'm like okay so you do a 360 and you can see all the windows like okay they're not here I wait 30 more minutes they finally show up this girl shows up this overweight

bigger Mexican woman probably in her 60s looks like she's ready to go to a quinceanera so much makeup so much perfume and then they throw me in a white van

with no windows and it sure is used by the cartels for kidnappings when it's not a production van I'm positive because the inside was really grimy

like ooh people tried to get out of this before. Come on. So I'm telling you, this is what it looked like. And she's in the front passenger seat with the window open. And we're driving. I'm like, I thought I could get some food at the airport. But no, because it's so small.

Okay, now we're driving. Maybe we'll stop and get some food. I notice that the road is straight. Nothing but cactuses and rocks. I'm like, holy shit. So now it's starting to, I see the bars on my phone starting to go away. Like Like there is no food coming up anytime soon. I said, how far is the border? Like three hours. I said, oh my God. I said, what about food? Like there's nothing from here to there. So they flew you into Tucson to drive you to Mexico?

Puerto Peñasco. Which now they have an airport there, so you can fly into it. At the time they did not. So yes, I'm like, fine, I'll wait to get to the motherland. And she's working for the production. For the, yes. Yeah. You would think maybe not'll wait to get to the motherland. And she's working for the production. For the, yes. Yeah. You would think maybe not. Like, maybe they snuck her in somehow. And I got to smell her perfume the whole time.

Yeah. And I'm watching my bars disappear. Yeah, yeah. I'm like, fuck, if a tire blows, we're fucked. Yeah. Like, I've got a bag of, like, nuts and raisins that I won't tell them I have. Yeah. And I'll escape.

Yeah. And I'll go back. I already had a plan. To get out. If we roll and the tire blows, because I won't have a signal. Wow. So, I finally get there. I get to the hotel. Like, ah If we roll and the tire blows, because I won't have a signal. So I finally get there. I get to the hotel like, ah, Mr. Collins, you're not supposed to be here for another week. Okay, well, here I am.

So what do we do? I do not know. I'm like, okay, please. Who's talking to you now? The head of the owner or the person at the hotel. Yeah. I'm like, so, okay. You got a room?

Yeah. I'm like, here I am. So they put me in a room. There's no welcome basket. There's no script. There's no per diem. The phone cables are yanked out of the wall. Oh my God.

Yeah. So I'm Mexican. So I'm like, I can fix this. So I start reconnecting the wires and I get some kind of signal and it's still not working. So I go downstairs. You got to put money down. I get my credit card. No credit card.

No credit card. Okay. Where's the ATM? No ATM. What? No ATM? Do you got room service? No room service.

What? What the fuck's going on here? Where's Brad Pitt yeah where the fuck's Brad so so then they go um they finally get me the uh so I give them 50 bucks and they charge the fuck out of me I call my man I was like yo I you have to change Verizon before you cross into Mexico you can't do it once you get there so it wouldn't work once I got there so now I'm sure now it's different but at the time so I finally get a script and I go to Alejandro and he goes oh my god he was right I was supposed to fix that he goes I didn't and I was like I was like that's cool well he was busy and I saw how slammed he was so I let three days pass and then I finally I'd already shot him some versions of it that he liked I said dude do you want me to

just kind of tighten it up and write some shit? And like, it goes like X, Y, Z. Could you, could you? I'm like, fuck, don't worry, dude. Just keep doing what you're doing, bro. And what you see in the movie, even you'll hear me repeat some dialogue, which is very typical of just police procedural. Yeah. Is very simple, short commands. No monologues. It's like, you know, stand up, sit down, hands up, hands down. Nothing to confuse people. So that's why you'll hear me repeat stuff because when we finished that scene, he said, just repeat what you're saying. I'm like, cool, okay.

So we did, and all that dialogue is the shit that I still have the writing at home. I keep all my stuff that I rewrite. Yeah? Yeah. Just for the— Jim Sheridan's film, Brothers. I wrote a bunch of stuff. Yeah?

And you keep it just for the papers. Just for fun to have. in his film Brothers. I wrote a bunch of stuff. Yeah? And you keep it just for the papers. When the papers go to the, whoever gets your estate, the library that gets all the papers. But like Pitt's whole, his section was totally

different, right? Yeah. It was a different, like almost a different story in a different place. It wasn't Mexico, was it? Nope. I had Gael Garcia

on my end. And yeah, I had someael Garcia on my end and yeah I had some great people but it was just getting there was just like a very It's crazy.

It gets worse. It gets way worse. Really? Oh yeah. But why it wasn't his first movie was it? No.

It was just the way it worked? It's just anytime my people are involved you can expect. But that's not always true. I mean, I can't imagine that Del Toro.

Oh, you're right. No, no, no. The exceptions of Del, with the top, yeah,

no, no, Because now those guys are friends and they are the big Mexican directors, right? For sure. Yeah. But Del Toro,

yeah. But, but Del Toro seems very organized, dude. And good on. Yeah. Oh, for sure.

Oh, Del Toro is meticulous. Like, I've talked to that guy. I love, I love Guillermo. Yeah. Right? Oh, I told him, I said, dude. And grown. Yeah. Oh, for sure. Oh, Del Toro is meticulous. Like, I've talked to that guy. I love Guillermo. Yeah. Right? Oh, I told him, I said, dude, I love you so much, you almost turned me gay. Yeah.

That's how much I love you. Yeah. He's like, he's so, like, meticulous. Yeah. And passion, passion, passion. Right. They're both very passionate, but it's different, right? It's a different type of passion.

Alejandro is a little more rascally. Right. Like, Latino rascally. Right, but he's like... Like Latino rascally. Right, but he also seems like he's, you know, he's a guy that's dealing with the whole world. And it seems like Del Toro is a guy that's dealing with film. Do you know what I mean?

I do. I do. They're both passionate, but like, you know, Del Toro is a total film nerd. And it seems like, how do you say his name in Urutu? I know I'm half Mexican, and I desecrate it every time. He just feels, it feels to me like, you know, it's like film never existed. You know, he's inventing film every time he does it.

Well, he did stray from his genres in that last film. Yeah. Bartos. I couldn't get through it. Oh, I loved it so much. I got to try again. Oh, my God through it. Oh, I loved it so much. I gotta try again. Oh my God.

It's so, it's just so abstract. So wonderfully and poetically abstract. I love The Revenant. Is that what it's called? Oh yeah, I love that too.

That's fucking crazy. Oh boy, well it's like, I thought about that a couple weeks ago. I thought, damn, they really made Leo

work for that Oscar. Not like he wasn't deserving before for so many performances, but this one of all, like they really made him work his ass off. And that other, the other,

everyone in that was pretty good. What was his name? Is it Tom? What's his name? Tom Hardy. Tom Hardy was like, that guy is like, what the fuck is going on with that guy?

Yeah. He's a beast. Yeah. Yeah. But a beast in the way that you respect and the way you are, where you, you know,

you disappear into these things. Like who, where did that role even come from? How about Bronson? Yeah. Yeah, Bronson's something I watch every so often. Which one's that? Bronson's where he plays that famous inmate from,

is it England? Yeah, England. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know if I've seen it. Oh, it's a magical indie. Oh my God, it'll blow. If you were impressed by his work as an older actor, watch his stuff when he's young.

Bronson, it's mind-boggling how good he is. I swear, you will just be – I've probably watched the film five times. Yeah. It's just mesmerizing. And it's a prison, so they don't speak to the general prison tropes. Yeah. And it gets very also abstract at times. Yeah.

Not on the Bartos. Well, kind of. Yeah, when you watch very also abstract at times. Yeah. Not on the Bartos. Well, kind of. Yeah, when you watch it, you'll see. And they just do some beautiful, they take some artistic liberties that play so well into the psyche of what's going on to someone that's been incarcerated for so long. Wow. What's his name again? Bronson. Yeah.

What's the name of the actor? Tom Hardy. Yeah, Hardy. Yeah, my brain's going. I watched some one where I'm trying to... He's like... I don't even know. Like in The Revenant, what accent was that? Right, that's a good question. But also, you got to remember the time period.

So the accents change and we don't have access to actual recordings of those axes. And then you did that weird Capone movie. Right. That was a stinker. Locke is the one. Locke is the movie I was thinking of. It's called Locke? It's called Locke.

Oh, wow. Olivia Colman's in it. Oh, I love her. Yeah, yeah. It's a weird little indie movie and, movie, and it's kind of a trip. It deals with a guy who has a one-night stand, and he's like, you know, you should watch it. It's all him. It's called Locke?

L-O-C-K-E. It's all him. Okay, I'll probably watch it today. Like in a car. I'll probably watch it when I get home. Right? It's kind of a crazy movie. It sounds fun.

But so when you work with Guillermo on Nightmare Alley, you did two movies with him, right? Pacific Rim. Yeah. But Nightmare Alley, this is like coming full circle around to, you know, your heritage. Yes, sir. And your grandfather. Yes, sir. It's very interesting because, like, you know,

when I was looking around and I looked up your grandfather, is that there's something similar about the nature of your careers in that, you know, not so much I don't know his acting work, but he did a lot of movies and he did a shit ton of little television. And you've done, he's just a working actor at some point, right? And it was sort of interesting that, you know, it skipped a generation, I guess, done, you, he's just a working actor at some point. Right. And it's, it was sort of interesting that, you know, it skipped a generation, I guess, but, you know, here you are having a similar life, right? It's true. Uh, with the exceptions of, he did a lot

of, uh, because he came from a vaudevillian background. So you drew from that for your role in a nightmare alley. I actually learned a lot about it because I started doing research and starting to kind of gather information to write his life story. Really? Yeah, and then Guillermo just put accelerant on it. Did he know your grandfather's work? He knows his work,

he knows the history. Really? And more so, he sold the importance to me. He sat me down one day, we had dinner in his apartment just two doors down from mine. Everybody had left already. Perlman had left and Willem Dafoe had left. Everybody had left. It was just Guillermo and me and his girl. And he sat me down. He wanted to watch the Jockey trailers. We watched it. And we'd been drinking a little bit of wine and cheese. And then he sits down. He goes, Cliverton. He liked to call me Cliverton.

He goes, Cliverton, cabrón, mira. He goes, you and your family, your legacy. Mira, cabrón. He goes, you're like the pinche Latino Barrymore family, cabrón. And I said, no, I'm not worthy of that. He goes, no, cabrón. He goes, you are. And he leans forward and he points. He's a big dude.

But he leans forward like he's going to lay hands on me. And I said, okay. I put my hands up. Okay, I am. I am. I said, but wouldn't that make me Drew Barrymore? He's like, cabrón, you're right. But you can be whoever you want. I said, okay. I put my hands up. Okay, I am. I am. I said, but wouldn't that make me Drew Barrymore? Yeah. He's like, I don't know,

you're right, but you can be whoever you want. I said, great, maybe I'll be a Grandpa Barrymore. Yeah. Yeah. Or Great-Grandpa Barrymore

because Ethel started in Vaudeville as well. There was Ethel and Lionel and John and I think that was the big three there, right? That was the big three. You're absolutely right.

So, but you had more family that was in movies? No, but they were all part of the carpa scene. And carpa is Spanish for rag top. Yeah. And the carpa scene was basically Mexican ragtop in Texas. What does that mean? A traveling show? Yes.

Okay. So it was a tent that you could put up and put down and go to the next location. And that was your grandfather? That's how he started? That's how my great-grandmother started. Your great-grandmother. In Mexico. And then she had to escape

when Pancho Villa declared war. So Guillermo knew about your great-grandmother? He knew. He had ideas. He didn't really know. But since then, the research, I've found information

in different artists' books, remembering, speaking about my great-grandmother, my great-uncle, my great-aunt. They were my great uncle, my great aunt. They were all in that, in the carpa? Yeah,

all of them were. They were from the carpa. So they were carnies. Yeah, essentially. Yeah. But my, my,

my great grandfather on my mother's side was a medicine man, a contortionist. He, he would locate, find the location. Yeah. Get the paperwork done.

So he did, you did a lot of stuff. And, and in these situations, you often had two other entertainers that could do your routine in case you get sick or whatever. Right. So they could fill in for you. So that was sort of part of Nightmare Alley, the passing on.

So as I was learning, they were kind of coming together. At the same time, coincidentally. Yeah, coincidentally, 100%, Mark. One can argue a coincidence. Is it really a coincidence? That's where I feel like something else is. I get that sometimes. Okay, stop.

I've got enough signs. It gets creepy sometimes. Not sometimes. It gets creepy a lot. It gets creepy a lot until it goes away, and then you're like, uh-oh. It's still beautiful creepy, though. Did I fuck up? Where's the creepiness?

No, I'm already in gay. I'm not going to stop because the voices or the things. Okay, so that's your great-grandfather. So your grandfather started in that world as a kid? Yes, my great-grandfather, both my great-grandfathers and both my great-grandmothers. On my grandpa's side and my grandma's side. But this is all through your mother's family. Yes.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So Micaela was my grandfather's mother. Yeah. And she was related to General Huerta. Yeah. So, so Micaela was my grandfather's mother. Yeah. And she was related to General Huerta. Yeah. So she was Micaela Huerta Gonzalez. Wow. And that's Pancho Villa's sworn enemy.

Yeah. And she was dancing for Pancho's men. Yeah. Oh, wow. In the theater. Yeah. And the carpas. Yeah.

So when Pancho, or when Pancho Villa declared war, she was like, I got to get the fuck out of here. Yeah. Because he's going to kill me once they find out I'm related to Huerta. Yeah. So she bounced and came to Texas at 17. Yeah.

And you didn't need a passport back then. Right. So you paid a nickel. Nickel was the ongoing bribe. Yeah. And I remember asking my grandma about this.

Hey, grandma, tell me more about the thing and the nickel and the bribing and this and that. Was it like the Harriet Tubman's Underground Railroad?

No, mijo. It wasn't nothing like that. What do you mean nothing like that? I just got in line and gave him a nickel. That's so not cinematic. So boring. It was just an open, corrupt bribe. No menace.

No menace. Come on in. Yeah, pretty much. Nickel. Give me a nickel. So, but your grandfather, he was like a studio actor, wasn't he? Yes, and he couldn't read. Right, but he was used in Westerns.

Yeah, he was under Batjack Productions, which was Duke's company. Oh, really? So he did Real Bravo, High and the Mighty, Strange Lady in Town. He'd lend them out to other actors that had their own production company, like when he worked with Glenn Ford in The Sheep Men or Greer Garson in Strange Lady in Town. And what are these parts? Because I can't, like, I saw Rio Bravo, but, like, are they just the Mexican parts?

Like, slightly stereotyped? Not in Rio Bravo. No. You know, he owned the hotel. Oh, okay. And he brought Duke all the ammo at the end with the shotgun. Oh, okay. And he got in a fight, and he's the one that puts the blouse up to Duke.

Oh, right, right. And Duke would just take him off the leash. Duke just loved to have him around. Yeah. So he was buddies with John Wayne. Oh, yeah. Once Duke saw him on the Groucho Marx show, and then William Morris signed him, he did one film.

He did the first 3D Western with Van Heflin called Wings of the Hawk. Yeah. And then after that, that's when Duke called. Yeah. Said, I want to put him under contract for like 10 years. Wild. Yeah. And that's where he did all the film and TV work because he was on Bonanza.

So he was working for Duke. Yeah. And Duke's brother directed him. Robert Wayne directed him on something they found called The Vault. No shit. Yeah. Yeah. So you're doing all this research and you're finding all this out and you're watching all the, you could probably see most of the stuff, most of the TV stuff even too, right?

Not just, yeah, but I'm slowly getting my hands on some of it. I got a hold of the Jimmy Durante that he did with Robert Mitchum. Oh, really? Oh, yeah. It's beautiful. What is that? A Jimmy Durante show? Yes.

A variety show? Yes. No shit. Oh, I got to send it to you. Really? Because it's not on YouTube, but I have it. It's crazy, man it's crazy man it's fantastic and he did groucho marx's show groucho marx so he's a real guy yeah he's the only groucho uh gave him a book uh which my grandpa couldn't read but i read and um he's the only person that he mentions out of the whole show

it helped raise his ratings because he was going to go off the air oh really he calls walter o'keith who had a tv show not a tv show he had a Because, you know, from like 19th, was it 45 to 55, radio was like the big entertainment. So Walter O'Keefe had a show called Double or Nothing. I believe it was on NBC. And Groucho called me and said, I need some help, man. I said, my show, my ratings are going down. They're saying I'm too hard on the customers and I need some help. Can you help me, buddy? And he got your granddad? Well, he did.

Walter O'Keefe had done, he emceed a charity event for cerebral palsy at WOAI radio station in San Antonio, Texas. And my grandfather worked there. So he did everything. He was crew guy, camera guy, ran cables, would pick up money, would do the show, the dude ranch show. He would do the comedian stuff.

He would act. He did everything. Yeah. Wild. So, and did he, you had a relationship with him, your grandfather? He was more of a dad than my dad was. Yeah. So you, okay.

So you were able to go right to the source for all this stuff. Yeah. A lot of it. Yeah. Actually, Joe Mantegna got me recording interviews on my grandfather probably 30 years ago. How did Joe Mantegna get you to do it? He was like, he was Cliffy. He goes, you know, your grandpa, your grandpa's a legend, a legacy.

You know, he's filled with stories that you got to get all that stuff on tape. You got to record it. So Joey kind of stayed on me for a little bit. I'm like, fine, Uncle Joey, fine, I will, I will. And I'm so grateful. Yeah. Because it wasn't until the end of Nightmare Alley that for some reason I remembered that I videoed him. Because I had about seven hours of interviews from my grandmother.

Because that night that Guillermo told me that, I went back to my room and I went through all the hours of grandma and I made all these index cards. Yeah. And when I finished, I went to bed. Yeah. And then when I woke up, I realized, oh my God, I did those videos that Joey had me do. Yeah. So I got to go find those. 30 years ago?

97, 98. Uh-huh. Wow. And he found them? Yes, sir. I knew they were in two places. Yeah. It's one of two places.

Yeah. And I went and I found them. Wow. Got them all. Yes, sir. So what are you going to do with all this stuff? What are you going to do with your grandfather's life? Well, I'm making the origin story.

You kind of look like him, right? That's what everybody keeps telling me. I've been trying to ignore it. You're going to play him? Yeah. You see, I'm kind of hesitant. I know once I hopped the fence. But yeah, I've been practicing his frying pans.

What do you mean frying pans? Oh, that was one of his gigs. Because they were so poor, he'd take bottles and fill them with water and hang them. I've got a picture. Hang them? Yeah, from an old lead pipe, which I have the original lead pipe in my garage. And he would fill them with water. And at a young age, from the age of seven, he started learning this.

It's like a vaudeville trick. It was. And then the frying pans, he had 24 skillets. He'd play those? Yeah, he'd play them and he'd bend the tail or he'd bend the handle to change the pitch. Yeah. And also with the hammer he learned later. Yeah.

Which was hell on the family probably at least the last 15 years of his life because his hearing was going. Uh-huh. And so he would do shows like twice a year. Yeah. Like in Wilcox, Arizona. He'd do the Rex Allen days or, you know, he was, they still loved him at these certain places. Yeah. And they'd ask him. So you always knew when that time was coming

because you hear him banging on these pans like bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, bang, and it's real fucking loud. Yeah, yeah. So it was like,

oh, the Wilcox days is coming. Like, yeah, yeah, your grandpa's tuning up the band. Like, oh my God. Like, grandpa, you need a hearing aid.

No, you're crazy. You don't need a hearing aid. We heard that for years. And his whole life in Culver City? Yeah. No kidding. Yeah, yeah. And the family still got the property? Just. We heard that for years. And his whole life in Culver City? Yeah. No kidding. Yeah.

And the family still got the property? Just sold it not that long ago. Oh, yeah? Yeah. Was that sad? It was sad. It was sad. Yeah, because I grew up in that home, and I tap danced in that home from a young kid's age.

You were a tap dancer? Yeah, I'm a hoofer. Yeah? Yeah, Grandpa got me hoofing. Really? He did that too? Oh, yeah, he did. Oh, he would steal steps.

He would steal steps all the time. He'd watch the Nicholas Brothers in New York at like 17 years old. Oh, back in the day. Because he got married. My grandma was 15, he was 17 and they hit the road and they went on tour. Did vaudeville. Yeah, went to New York to perform at the Hispano Theater. Yeah. So he was watching those guys.

Oh, yeah. He would just watch and steal. They all knew each other? I don't know if that he knew them. So there's a separate Mexican vaudeville or a Latino vaudeville? Uh-huh. I guess that makes sense. Yeah. The Carpas.

There's a black one and there's a Chinese one as well. Well, the Carpas, is that what it's called? Well, for the Chinese, Texas. But that was like, that was essentially Mexican vaudeville?

Pretty much. And it would tour as such? Mm-hmm. So, like, I wonder what the range was. Was it mostly in the south, or how far did Mexicans get early on? Arizona, New Mexico. Right. California, probably.

Yeah, California. One of his eldest sister got married to this guy named Walter Weber, who had some success creating, like, he wanted to do Mexican-American rag tops, and they wanted to do it in English because my great-grandmother only spoke Apache and Spanish. And she didn't want to do it in English. You know, she was old school. She didn't like swing dancing. My grandpa was a crazy swing dancer.

My grandma was, too. They'd make money. They'd make ends meet with doing swing dancing. My grandpa was a crazy swing dancer. My grandma was too. They'd make money. They'd make ends meet with doing swing dancing. Wow, real hustle, man. They're real badass swing dancers. So what are you going to do? You're going to write a movie? I already wrote it.

You did? Yeah. Guillermo's got it. Mike Judge has it. Roger Avery's got it. Mike Judge, that's interesting. Why that choice? Because he knew them and he's a dear friend.

Oh. And I'm just trying to get- He knew them? What do you mean? We'd go. I'm like, yo, let's stop by my grandma's

and get some breakfast burritos. They're like, all right, let's go, man. Let's go get some breakfast burritos. Yeah. And then we'd go down and like,

holy shit, that's your grandma's breakfast burritos? Jesus Christ, that's green chili. Oh shit, God damn. Green chili. He grew up in New Mexico.

Yeah. But he was there for a while. Yeah, yeah. How do you know him? I auditioned for Idiocracy. Yeah. And we just connected then, even though he didn't hire me. I was like, damn, I could totally hang out with Mike.

Mike's fucking cool as shit. Yeah. And then I ended up doing Extract, where I get my ball blown off. Yeah. My testicle. Just hanging by a thread. So how far along are you in this movie thing? So you got the script out to people.

Uh-huh. And you want to direct it? Yes, sir. So you're looking for a producer? You're looking for money? Let's see what happens in the Guillermo camp. Yeah. Because he was such a strong influence, and he knew Grandma as well.

Yeah. He was like the one opinion that he cared about at the screening of Pacific Rim. Yeah. But then the same way Bennett Miller and Philip Seymour, rest in peace, were concerned about what my grandma and grandpa thought when they saw Capote at Sony Studios. Really? Yeah. Because why?

Did she know him or something? They knew. Philip and Bennett knew who my grandpa was. But having worked with Howard Hawks and Mervyn LeRoy and William Wellman and all their old greats. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Like they just, they were beeline. They just kind of went past the audience

and beeline straight, what did your grandma say? What did your grandma say? I'm like, okay. He loved it. He loved it. We're good. Yeah.

Like, dude, what's going on? You can ask her. I'll tell you. Wow. Yeah. It was pretty special. So you've been, you've been practicing the directing though?

You've been doing videos and shit? Well, I've done a bunch. I've done everything from The Crowning Crows to Slash. But no features yet? No features yet. I love shooting. I love editing. I'm just kind of a horror for it.

I just love the process. Yeah, yeah. It's fun. But I've recently, because I've got so much audio on Grandma, I actually had Grandma narrate some of the beginning, because I didn't have the whole script ready yet but we've talked about so much of it yeah that i sat her down i said what we would call her because as children we couldn't say abuelita yeah so we just say yeah um so he'd be like hey and as adults we still called her yeah wouldn't it be cool if

you could actually be the person to narrate weto's stories? Yeah. That would be amazing. So I've got hours of her. So what I've been doing, I've been harvesting her voice for AI through 11 Labs. Really? Mm-hmm. What's 11 Labs? 11 Labs is an AI for voice cloning or voice recreation. Yeah.

So I've been isolating her voice and taking out um my voice and any high pitches or knocks and and i upload it to this app yeah and i can get her i can type what i want her to say really yes sir how's it sound correct well right now it's a little off because and and i just found the fear i just found this little button where i can because i it's it says english but then if you look on it you you can make it go to Mexican. Yeah. So for the Mexican accent, because grandma's got not a, she looked very white. Yeah.

But had a unique accent. Yeah. Being from Texas. Yeah. And Texas, you never know. You can sound like a straight up, like full blown KKK member. Yeah. Or Texan.

Yeah. And you can be full blown like dark Mexican. Yeah. Or you could be full blown white looking and have the thickest Mexican accent you've you've ever heard. So you just never know what you're getting. Right. And that was a Jim Crow era too. My grandma's youngest sister was the whitest. So if they were hard up for food, a lot of times they would roll the dice and have her go into the store to buy food and risk getting caught and possibly killed. Really? Yeah, my grandpa would stop and like,

let's not go into that one. That one's dangerous. Oh, really? Or that owner's known to like fuck with Mexicans or... Yeah, yeah. Yeah, but... So you want her to narrate,

but it's going to be a... It's not a documentary. It's an origin story. Yeah. And it pretty much ends when he gets signed by William Morris and goes to... and leaves WAI.

Okay. But that's interesting that you're using the AI. Well, I'm not 100% on that, but I want to have it ready in case. I like being prepared. People are just sort of like really just quickly adapting to it in a way that makes me nervous. No, I understand. But also technology grows exponentially. Yeah, I know.

And we're already at that phase where it's already – I mean, it went from 30% for passing the bar on Monday and by Friday to like 100. Yeah, I know. And we're already at that phase where it's already, I mean, it went from 30% for passing the bar on Monday and by Friday to like 100. Yeah. So we're at that phase of the trajectory just like.

Of technology. Yeah, it's gonna, you blink and it's like already evolved. It's talking, you blink again and next thing you know it's living with you.

You blink again. It's moving super fast. Yeah, and it's making, it's counting how many times you're blinking. Yeah, it's moving super, super fast. I've studied this. Is this good or bad in your mind? I think it's. how many times you're blinking. Yeah, it's moving super, super fast. I've studied this.

Is this good or bad in your mind? I think it's... It's inevitable? It is. I think it's inevitable. Yeah. I mean, we've already heard the things that have happened. And look at the Boston Dianetics or the robots that they've been showing us.

Yeah, I know. I always say, look, this is what they're showing you. Just think about what they're not showing you. And you were in Westworld. I was in Westworld. I was in Transcendence. If you watch Transcendence, man, the documentary about all the technology coming together. Because the Internet's united.

The singularity? Singularity, yes, sir. I studied that a bunch. Yeah, and what do you think of that? Scary. We have no choice. We have no choice because we let it happen. Yeah, I mean, you could live off the grid, you know, in the forest somewhere.

You could do that. But then everybody's connected in a way that you're not. I don't know. It's really what matters to you. We mean everyone's connected in a matrix-y kind of way? Well, in a sense, like anybody can text me or you. Sure. No, I get that.

They can text us both or call us. But also, you know, we're part of algorithms, and our desires are being mined and fed back to us through our choices we're making that are being sort of recorded and observed by pieces of equipment that we've grown to rely on. There's shit that I don't say. There's shit that I think. You don't say around your phone? I don't say around my phone? I've had some ideas that I've never even uttered yeah just just because I well yeah they got this stuff that they're picking up brainwaves now dude that's right that's that's

right well when I heard that about the brainwaves I'm like well that goes to show you that you know that we as humans are are lazy in our appreciation and understanding of the way we communicate without talking like if the computer can pick up brainwaves and make images out of our brainwaves, you can tell us that other people can't do that as well? I mean, right? Sure,

sure. But also, there's other senses like, you know, body language that doesn't need to be verbalized.

And you can tell when your girlfriend comes up, you know, when she's mad at you, you know she's happy. Right, right.

Or you know when she's having a bad day. I guess you do feel that, yeah. Yeah. So. Well, that aside,

well, I hope that you make the movie and what is this? Did your writer too, you do some that, yeah. Yeah, so. Well, that aside, well, I hope that you make the movie. And what is this? Did your writer, too, you wrote a book with your? I did, Prison Ramen. Yeah, what is that? I donate 20% of the proceeds to Homeboy Industries. Sure, man.

Father Greg. Yeah, Father Greg. You know Father Greg? I love Father Greg. Father Greg and all the homeboys and all the homegirls over there. It's such a beautiful, it's a magical place. Yeah. Because I did grow up around a lot of gang activities as a young kid.

In Culver City? Culver City, Englewood, Watts, South Central. Yeah. Been shot at three times. You have? I got out of three carjackings. Yeah. I think I got two lives left.

Yeah. I'm guessing. That's pretty good. I'm cool with that. At 52? You're 52? Yeah. Two lives should get you through.

Yeah. I'm with you. I'm so with you. I 52, you're 52? Yeah. Two wives should get you through. Yeah. I'm with you. I'm so with you. I'm happy. I'm happy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I remember the first time walking in there. To Homeboy?

Yeah, to Homeboy Industries. I saw a Latino. I saw Northsiders, Southsiders, white gangsters, black gangsters. And I was like, oh, shit, it's about to go down. I went straight to my fight or flight. I put my back against the wall. I knew where the exits were. gangsters and I was like oh shit it's about to go down I went straight to my fight or flight yeah I put my back against the wall I knew where the exits were yeah and then and then I realized like oh my god everybody's here to be in of service yeah and my eyes just watered up and I was trying

to hold the tears back yeah I don't want them to see me breaking yeah because I realized how much love was in the room I was overwhelmed by the love it It was beautiful. And I sat down with Father G. He gave me a recipe. So yeah, a childhood buddy of mine had done some time and I went to go visit him after the Chino riots. I was like one of the first people there. In prison? Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I went to go visit him. And seven out of the eight cubicles, when you're getting

ready to transfer, he was a clerk at that time because he'd done a lot of time and he had that stature. But he was the last module to not get burned. So even when I was sitting with him on the yard, you could still smell the burning embers, the wood, like when a forest burns, you smell it. I could still smell it. When was that? Was that uprising? A riot?

Yeah, it was a riot. Yeah, yeah. It was a riot. And it was a warden that wasn't paying attention to the house rules, as we say. And they paid the price for it. And then he got removed. But I've got photos of Schwarzenegger walking through the prison and blood on mattresses and broken porcelain sinks. Those prison rights are nasty.

Oh, they're totally nasty. And it could have been prevented, but just arrogance. So your buddy survived? He did. And we took from his diary, I selected a handful of stories which were very engaging. Yeah.

And then we just polished them. We polished them while I was doing this pilot in North Carolina. I'd left my computer at home. Like I had that visual when I was on the plane going, oh shit, it's charging on my table. How am I going to do the rewrites? Right, yeah, yeah, yeah.

On my damn phone. My thumbs were so fucking sore, Mark. Yeah, but it's weird that you can make the adjustment, right? Well, you're driven. Yeah, I know, but there's always something. Yeah, and you did it? I did. Even Goose was like, yo, buddy, you look pretty tired, man.

Why don't we just do this polish tomorrow? I'm like, no, dude, we got to mow it through. Tomorrow is the easy scene. They got makeup for me. Don't worry about it. We got to finish this. You know? And you did it? dude, we got to mow it through. Tomorrow is the easy scene. They got makeup for me. Don't worry about it. We got to finish this. You know? And you did it?

Yeah, we did. And what is the book? It's just his, it's edited versions of his writing? It is edited. They're all original ramen recipes from prison.

Yeah. They're all very real recipes. And then with every recipe, we affiliate a story. Yeah. You know, in hopes that the youth will pick up on it. What's the recipes?

Just all ramen. And ramen's taken over as a force. So it's all prison. It's for prison. Like that's what they can do in their cell. Okay. Yeah. And it's different in different prisons because some prisons allow farming.

Others do not. Some prisons allowed extra stuff from the outside. Others do not. Yeah. So it really depends. And it changes throughout. And it's a quick, fun read. And I had so many friends come to help.

Yeah. I mean, Sam Jackson did the intro. Oh, wow. And Father G and Shia LaBeouf and Taryn Manning. Have you worked with that Shia fella? Clancy Brown. Yes, sir. I did two things with Shia.

I did Honey Boy. Oh, yeah. Which is a very special film. I saw that movie. Wait. Well, hold on. Who were you in that? I played his counselor. Oh, sir. I did two things with Shia. I did Honey Boy, which is a very special film. I saw that movie. Wait, well, hold on. Who were you in that? I played his counselor. Oh, yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That was like the one positive role model he had in his entire life. Right. Jeez, man. You're everywhere.

Yeah, it was special. Yeah, that guy's intense, man. He is intense. I think all great artists, we have our demons and they get off our leashes. I think he is a very good, gifted guy. He's insanely gifted, and he's very, it's just hard when you can't control your emotions. One of the things. If you can't control one of the things. You know what I mean?

You go through these traumas. It's a problem. If you can't control two or three, you're in trouble. You're right, brother. You're right. Well, then you got to be good at getting out of trouble. Sure. And getting in and getting out of trouble. You have to go to the place to make up for it.

Yeah. He's gotten out of trouble quite a few times successfully. Yeah. I'm thankful. Yeah. But just like Dennis Hopper, you know, he had, I said, Dennis, you've been like, you've been blacklisted three times. Yeah.

I said, how do you come back? You're an easy rider. And then you came back with Blue Velvet. And you came back. He's like, you know what? You know what? You know what? You know what? You know what? You know what? You know what? You know what? You know what? You know what? Honestly, they said, they said you come back? You're an easy rider. And then you came back with Blue Velvet. And you came back. And he's like, you know what? You know, Gonzales, honestly, they said I was difficult to work with. And I was like, really? He's like, yeah.

I said, oh, were you? Yeah, I was. I said, oh, well, why? He goes, because I, you know, Jimmy, James Dean. You know, Jimmy and Monty, Montgomery Clift, love to do their own blocking. And I'm not Jimmy or Monty. Yeah. I was like, duly noted.

Okay. Okay. Because Dennis and my grandpa were contract players under Duke. Yeah. Dennis, my grandfather, James Dean, Nick Adams. Yeah. Alfalfa from Little Rascals. Uh-huh.

They were all under Bat Jack. Really? Mm-hmm. So were all under Batjack. Really? Mm-hmm. So when did you meet Dennis Opera? I met Dennis in 91 on a Paul Schrader film. Which one? It was called Witch Hunt. Uh-huh.

I think it was called Witch Hunt. Huh. It was, oh, that famous author that I love. Not H.P. Lovecraft. Was it H.P. Lovecraft? I don't know. I think it was. Witch Hunt. Yeah. I don't know. I think it was.

Witch Hunt. Yeah. I don't know about this movie. Yeah, and Paul Schrader. Wow, it's a Paul Schrader movie I never heard of. Yeah. It's you and Boghossian, Debbie Mazur.

Oh, yeah. Penelope M. Miller. It was great to obviously work with a legend like Paul Schrader at that young of an age because I was very well aware of who he was. Yeah.

I knew all kinds of history about him, which surprised him. But the fact that Debbie Mazur was because I was very well aware of who he was. Yeah. I knew all kinds of history about him, which surprised him. But the fact that Debbie Mazur was in it was my like, Debbie Mazur's in it, I'm doing it.

Yeah, she was something. Oh, I had the hugest crush on her and then I ended up dating her years later. You did? I did.

I still got a Polaroid that I took from, or actually that makeup gave me. Yeah. I was like, oh my God, Debbie Mazur. I said,

can I have this? Like, yeah, I still have it. I still have it. And then Dennis and I would stay friends like through the whole thing. We were pretty tight actually. Yeah? Yeah, I loved hanging out with Dennis.

It was, Uncle Dennis was cool. I went to his funeral in Taos. Yeah, my buddy's married to his daughter. Oh, really? Steve Brill. Do you know Steve Brill? I don't know. Oh, yeah.

Maybe by face. I went out to the grave when I was in Taos last. Oh, the Penitente. Yeah. Yeah. Something, man. Penitente. That's a real old-timey graveyard there.

Well, a lot of people don't know the Penitente exists out there. I was doing Transcendence at the time, and Rebecca Hall's brother had flown in from England in an attempt to do a Penitente documentary. Well, I grew up in New Mexico. So the Penitente is up by Algodones. So you knew about this? Well, I know about the Penitentes. What are you talking about exactly?

I mean, they've been around a long time. Yeah, well, he couldn't find anything. Who couldn't find anything? Rebecca Hall's brother. So you're telling me that— It was secretive. Right, but that's a Penitente Cemetery? Yes.

Okay. And Robbie Romero, his godson, who's Apache, had to get... Dennis asked him to get special permission from the high priestess. He was like, huh? Yeah. High priestess, what are you talking about? Yeah. Penitente.

Like, huh? Penitente here? In Taos? He was like, yes. Why wouldn't they be all over New Mexico, right? Isn't that where most of it is? I mean, from my recollection, they were out by Española, Algodones. But it was like, you know, it's the sort of yearly Catholic beating the shit out of yourself thing, right?

Well, they did have two strong—well, you've been there. So you know there's two buildings at the entrance? Where? At the cemetery? At the cemetery? And one's a stronghold that has the people and the guns and this and that. And it looks like it's empty, but it's not. They're constantly watching.

So be really careful what you do. Right. Yeah, because we went a year later for Robbie to do the four prayers to the north, south, east, and west. So he did a full-blown Apache. So wait. So what are the penitentes in your understanding? I started to do a little bit of research. It comes from Spain. You get the flogging and all of that stuff.

So from what I understand, it still happens, but who knows? I don't really know. And neither did Robbie at the time. He grew up there. So it was very secretive. And what was Hopper's relationship with them to get buried there? I don't really know. Neither did Robbie.

Because Robbie was shocked when he heard it. Like, he was like, what do you mean? Like, this is like the first we're having this conversation. Like, he grew up with Dennis. Because it's a fairly

nondescript grave other than what people leave there. The beautiful crucifix. All of it, yeah. Yeah. And then people just go as a pilgrimage

and seem to leave stuff there. I don't know when the last time you were there was. I was there like a year ago. Oh, wow. And it's just covered with stuff. Like little motorcycles. know when the last time you were there was. I was there like a year ago. Oh, wow. And it's just covered with stuff. Like little motorcycles. All that kind of shit.

Easy rider stuff. Sure. Yeah, I'd been there twice. The first time I went, we were followed by a line of choppers because they circled the church during the whole ceremony. Oh, you mean when you were there at the funeral? Yeah, Henry was speaking and Jack Nicholson was next to me and he was... Oh,

Nicholson came out? Yeah, it was beautiful to have him. He came out for the star ceremony as well and was very friendly, was waving at all the tourists like you never see Jack.

Just so open-hearted like the way you've never seen him. You work with him? I have not. I would love to, but, and we had...

I think he's done. Yeah, possibly. Yeah. But, so we were just circled by these motorcycles and they came to the funeral and they let them in to the penitentiary cemetery. And I just remember Jack turning around and goes, as they started to lower Dennis in a

pine, a little, a literal pine box, like you see in the old West movies. Well, it's like the Jews do that. Yeah. Really? Pine box. I didn't know that. Okay. Full blown.

So they're starting to lower it. And then Jack turns around and goes, give them hell, boys. And so they did a 21 rev salute. Yeah. Wrong. Wrong. It was heavy. And Val Kilmer was there.

Yeah. Well, he's living in Santa Fe at the time. Yeah, it was. It was great to run into him there. And it's like, I'm hanging out with Gene. Did Gene Hackman come up or anybody? I didn't see Gene. Oh, yeah.

But there is so many of his friends were there. Did Fonda? Seymour Cassell was there. Fonda did not come to the star ceremony, nor the funeral, and I'd worked with him a few times afterwards. Yeah. I felt really bad because I was so close to Dennis. Yeah. And I was such a fan of Easy Riders.

Yeah. But then when I started to, he started to tell me about Henry and the book that he wrote. Henry. Oh, Fonda. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he started telling me about the book. Who, this is, Peter? Peter told you?

Yeah, he said, it's called Don't Tell Daddy, I think it's called. And when I learned about the trauma that he'd gone through, I just gave him a straight pass. I'm like, I can't hold anything against him. I don't know what their history is. Oh, about Peter? Between Peter and Dennis. I mean, I know what Dennis has told me and shared,

and I know what I've read, and I know what I've heard from other people, but... But after you heard Peter's story... About what he went through his dad... Oh, yeah. I was like, okay, I gotta, like... Yeah, guys, he had problems, dude.

Yeah, Henry was not cool. Not cool? No, it was bad. I think that's where that whole rebel thing came from, you know, because even before Easy Riders, he had the... Hell's Angels? I think it was... No, Wild Angels. Was I think that's where that whole rebel thing came from, you know? Sure. Because even before Easy Riders, he had the Hell's Angels? I think it was.

No, Wild Angels. Was it a Corman movie? Was it Roger Corman, maybe? Yeah, was it called Wild Angels? I don't know. I don't, it just sounds like. It was a biker, that's where Satanism was big. Oh, yeah, yeah.

So you were like, oh, the satanic, like, ooh. Yeah, that's right. I was like, oh, God, Satan. The B-movie biker movie. The B-biker movie. I love those things. Yeah. Well, it was great talking to you, buddy.

Oh, my God. It was such a joy. I was so excited. This is the highlight of my week. Oh, good, man. No, I was so sad when I couldn't make it that first. I'm like, oh, my God. I watched all the specials.

I watched all of Mark's stuff. It was so funny because I'm like, what happened? He's like, he fell off his bike. Literally. A bicycle. Not a motorcycle. A bike. Yeah, literally fell off his bike. Literally. A bicycle, not a motorcycle, a bike. Yeah,

literally fell off his bike and now we know two blocks, a block from his house. Not even, it was in front of my driveway. Oh, wow. Like the gate was still open,

it hadn't closed yet. It was a crack. I was like, okay, not going to the gym today. Well, I hope the full recovery is on the horizon.

Yeah, we're good in a couple weeks here. Thanks, buddy. All right, brother. There you go. You can watch Jockey currently on Starz and you can rent or buy it

on streaming video platforms like Apple and Amazon. And it is a very specific, very personal, and very, you know, it's kind of a heavy, beautiful movie. I recommend it highly. Okay, look. Hang kind of a heavy, beautiful movie. I recommend it highly.

Okay, look, hang out for a minute, will you? Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed,

how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth

at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of backley construction punch your ticket to kids night on saturday march 9th at 5 p.m in rock city at torontorock.com okay folks in case you missed it we dropped an episode in the free feed yesterday called the full marin year one if you aren't already subscribed to the full Marin, this is a collection of some of the bonus material we've been posting every week for the past year. So go take a listen and then sign up for the full Marin by clicking the link

in the episode description. And if you have a full Marin subscription, you can hear the latest episode that went up on Tuesday. It's me and kit talking about Godzilla. I don't think that Americans are equipped to understand that Godzilla is, like, Godzilla means a lot, you know?

Like, every American Godzilla movie, he's just a silly dinosaur, or there's, like, an overwrought plot, like in the new Legendary Pictures movies. There was, like, a Godzilla in 2014. Yeah. And then, like, a Godzilla in 2019 that I saw at a drive-in movie theater. And no good?

It was fun to see it at a drive-in movie theater, but no, it was crap. Like there's this like plot in the American movies that they're still making. Yeah. That Godzilla is an ancient alpha predator from an ancient race of alpha predators called Titans. And there were dinosaur Titans and there were ape Titans and they all lived at the center of the earth and were worshipped by you. It's stupid. It's a lot of backstory. Why do you need all that shit?

Sounds like Scientology. I know. Sounds like Scientology. I know. Again, go to the link in the episode description to sign up or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF Plus. Here we go. I think I'm finally, I think Rory Gallagher is seeping in. That's all I can say. guitar solo Thank you. guitar solo © transcript Emily Beynon Thank you. guitar solo guitar solo Boomer lifts.

Monkey Lafonda. Cat angels everywhere.