WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1449 - The United States of Conspiracy w/ Robert Guffey

Episode Date: July 3, 2023

Marc admits to a certain amount of conspiracy-driven paranoia when he was younger, which gives him a unique vantage point to observe the conspiracy theories shaking our culture. Conspiracy scholar Robert Guffey joins Marc to talk about the origins of modern conspiracy theories. What is the Illuminati? Why is Freemasonry central to so many conspiracies? How do cultural icons like Rudyard Kipling, John Huston and Steven Spielberg factor into the spread of conspiracy thinking? And how did Qanon grab hold of the fevered conspiratorial mind? Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Lock the gates! all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what the fuck patriots what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast. It keeps going. We keep going. We keep doing it. It is always exciting. That's true. That's true for me. It has to be. Every time I'm out here talking to somebody, I really don't know what the fuck is going to happen, and I'm ready for things to unfold. Happy 4th of July. Is that what I'm here to say? Is that what we're doing today? Tomorrow is the 4th of July.

And I guess I have to give my regular warning, which is mind your fingers. Don't lose any fingers. Keep the fingers on the hand. Don't light it and throw it as a grownup. You know, when you're my age or maybe a little younger and you have these strange recollections of chaotic firecracking when you're a kid, it's not the same, man. Just keep your digits, can you? And don't burn the meat. Don't burn the fucking meat. Watch the grill. Watch for grease fires. If grease is dripping in, the flames are high and you got dogs on there, you got burgers on there, you got ribs or whatever the hell it is that you're cooking. Get them off. There'll be a charred mess.

It's delicate stuff, man. If you're smoking, manage that temperature. Okay. Just stay on it all day long. Don't get too shit faced. Don't make a scene. Don't yell at your kids. Don't set fire to anything.

Don't cry. You know, more likely than not, if we're reflecting on the state of our union or the idea of America, I would imagine for those of you who are of right mind, are of tolerant mind, are of empathetic mind are of a progressive nature, uh, things seem pretty grim and I'm not going to tell you they're not, but you're not listening to me for that. Anyways, things are pretty grim. Doesn't mean you can't have some meat. Doesn't mean you can't blow some shit up safely. Doesn't mean you can't, uh, have fun with your kids in a, in a, in a way that involves lighters and matches and sparkly things and things that make noises. It doesn't mean you can't enjoy friends and whatnot. But I gather optimism might be tricky because we are living in the age right now. Obviously, I don't want to do the end time

thing, but I looked up the word radicalize. Radicalize, cause someone to adopt radical positions on political or social issues. Radicalization, that's what's happening. Our neighbors, our parents, people we used to know, radicalization is happening. And it's a very specific type of radicalization. It is sort of foundationally Christian in a lot of ways. And it is foundationally on purpose. And it is coming from all sides to those who are sensitive to it. The brain's not that strong. If you don't have a particularly stable sense of self, or you're dealing with massive amounts of unrecovered or undealt with trauma that kind of churns and burns inside of you, you're either is deep trauma stuff, but I'm no psychiatrist, but it might just be, you know, fuck it,

basic intolerance, basic bigotry. I mean, the fact that these people are hammering down on the most fragile minorities, immigrants, LGBTQ people, Jews aren't as fragile. But I mean, the ratio, the percentage rate, if you look at it, the numbers of people who are not those types of people is massive to the small proportion of people who believed that this country would provide them at least the basic decency and tolerance to let them exist how they want to exist without hurting other people. The problem with radicalization, happy 4th of July, by the way, is that, you know, how close are we to othering becoming murderous? I mean, when you sit there and rant and rave in your red hat about rainbow flags and grooming and taking books out of schools and not teaching the honest history of this country. compromising with the people that they are putting into these categories in the name of Christ, in the name of America, in the name of just basic fear of the different. I don't know. I don't know when we cross that threshold, but happy 4th of July. Enjoy the meat.

But this all transitions into my guest, to be honest with you. The guy that I talked to, I don't know where his book came from. It came to me somewhere. It must have came to my P.O. box. This happens sometimes. The book is called Operation Mindfuck, QAnon and the Cult of Donald Trump. It's by a guy named Robert Guffey. He's a lecturer at Cal State Long Beach, and he's written for the Believer Salon and the Los Angeles Review of Books. And I got this book, and look, man, I've got a soft spot for the nature of conspiracy and the

power it has. Now, radicalization requires the sort of constant drumbeat and psychological pummeling that comes from your phone, the networks you choose, the people you talk to, your podcast, your radio shows that, you know, if you exist in a bubble and look, I guess there are many people that live in a bubble, but like, I don't know what bubble I'm specifically in. I don't really adhere to one, but if you choose a reality, see, I can see their reality. I can see the radicalized reality and I can, I know who they are and I know what they're up to. I don't have a caring empathy for them, but I get it. But I don't know if you can characterize most of us in the same way, other than being, you know,

decent people who are tolerant. I mean, if you, this righteous intolerance is no good. Democracy cannot exist without the lubricant of tolerance. So when I saw this book, I'm like, well, has somebody put this together? Now, the backstory for me is, you know, I was susceptible and I believed in conspiracy theories at a different point in my life. I wrote about it fairly extensively in my book, Jerusalem Syndrome. I had sort of pushed my brain out past the point where it could manage critical thinking or adhere to practical reality. And I locked on to a few things, many of which have been folded in to the QAnon conspiracy, you know, primarily stuff within the halls of power, the Illuminati, the Trilateral Commission, the One World Government, a lot of

this stuff that is used as, they're basically anti-Semitic in relation to what they see as a Jewish-run media, Jewish-run world, a Jewish-run global cabal or government. But many of these conspiracies outside of those ones that kind of revolve around Jews and eating people have been around for a long time, and there's many strands of them. I'll read you a bit of what I wrote about it. I do go off on this conspiracy rant within the book

when I was out of my mind. I do go off on this conspiracy rant within the book when I was out of my mind. I was coming off of a psychotic state that was induced from, I think, mild borderline personality disorder in my youth and through my teens and through my early 20s into cocaine addiction, which kind of blew my brain open into a psychotic state. And I was grabbing at straws, both mystical and sort of earthbound. And in retrospect, or looking at it in my book, Jerusalem Syndrome, I'll quote myself. The thing about conspiracy literature is that it's perfect for stupid people who want to seem smart and ground their hatred in something completely mystical and confusing. And it's good for smart people who are too lazy to do their homework. People can't argue with it without possibly implicating themselves. Facts play only a minor role in any conspiracy theory. The proximity of of we're fucked. Events can be broad,

shady, real, unreal, preferably convoluted and hard to deconstruct in any one way. This leaves them open to endless possible interpretations. An event can be broken down in many ways as long as it serves as a doorway to the facts that you want to connect. An event can revolve around a person involved, a color, a time, a government, a number, a date, a code, a logo, a distant relative, a passing moment at a point in time other than the time of the event, a bullet, an institution, forces of nature that are suspect in their timing, a sexual encounter, a coworker, or basically anything that will enable you to construct your own arcane projectile riff that you can ride to your version of the truth. That's really a matter of style. Unquote me. Yes, I can't believe, like, I sometimes read the stuff I wrote, and I'm like, did I write that? But nonetheless, all those things are true, but once it's put into the hands of propagandists and people with an agenda, that's what causes radicalization, the hammering. It's the hammering.

So now this conversation with Robert Guffey, we kind of bounce around a lot because I have, you know, I'm not, I wouldn't say I'm a conspiracy nerd, but because I was involved in it, there are many books that were sort of around that time. There's a small community of people back in the day, kind of like the morbid fascination crew that was looking at all the weird videotapes of, there were certain like faces of death, the Bud Dwyer suicide tapes, and it was sort of kind of ran alongside of this kind of, you know, hipster conspiracy nerd thing. But these are historians. I would say that Robert Guffey is sort of a conspiracy historian. And some of the books we mentioned or that I mentioned that changed my life and the way

I saw the world, and to this day, I'm grateful for them, Apocalypse Culture, edited by Adam Parfrey. It's a collection of sort of renegade and truly transgressive essays and pieces of writing that probably could not be published today. And in this volume, there is in the Apocalypse Culture Volume 1, there's an essay by a guy named James Shelby Downard that is called King Kill Slash 33 Degrees, Masonic Symbolism and the Assassination of John F. Kennedy. Now, this thing is a spectacular bit of poetry and beautiful kind of psychosis and sign reading. And then there's an introduction to it by this guy named Michael A. Hoffman, the second who's still around, called The Alchemical Conspiracy and the Death of the West.

These are sign readers. Now, Downard, I don't believe is with us. I believe Michael A. Hoffman is still with us. And these are guys looking for the signs and symbols and through lines and bits and pieces of ephemera to sort of show the grand face of the devil. All of this has been sort of assimilated into the broader Christian fascist mindfuck, which is QAnon. But what in their other books mentioned, you know, the secret societies and psychological warfare by Hoffman.

But some of these are not well intended. Some of these are coming from the other side. Some of these are propaganda. There's books by Alex Constantine that we talk about. There's a book called The Unseen Hand and The New World Order by Epperson, who was part of the John Birch crew, I believe. And that's where I first got hip to it, was I went to some sort of seminar at a hotel when I was lost and young. And it was all these sort of like, look at the dollar bill, the eye in the pyramid, the illuminate, all of it. And I kind of, as a character of Marc Maron, I talk about it in my book. But it is fascinating because to be aware of them to the degree that

someone like Robert Guffey is, and to really sort of take on QAnon as something other than a phenomenon, and to break it down and to look where it comes from and what its intentions are, this goes back a long time. And there's all kinds of different strands of military military psyops and there's military personnel who are involved in promoting this thing who have either are either brainfucked themselves, but more likely are on board with the big win of fascism in America. So this is what the conversation is today. And I guess it's, it's, it's, is it, is it prescient? Maybe it's prescient, but I think it might be appropriate for this particular 4th of July. You know, you be the judge, but, you know, try to follow along. And if it makes you curious, you know, read the book because this stuff did not come out of nowhere.

I think that more than anything else, you know, that's something we can take away from this. Hey, for those of you who are in L.A., I'm at Dynasty Typewriter on July 11th, 18th, and 25th. Those are all Tuesdays, and I'm back at Largo on Thursday, July 27th. And just announced, I'll be at Helium in Portland, Oregon on October 20th through the 22nd. I've got dates coming up in Salt Lake City as well that are on the website. You can go to WTFpod.com for tickets, both Salt Lake City and Vegas at the Wise Guys Clubs, working out the new hour. Yeah, so basically what I'm admitting to you here, in so many words, is that I lost my mind, and I think some of you know that, but I truly lost my mind for a few

years, and it was a long time coming. And I'm just starting really, you know, at this age to put together a lot of the things that, you know, happened in my past, that I did in my past, and that I thought in my past. It's almost, you get to a certain age where you almost see yourself as a separate person because you've had many lives. many lives and whatever progress you've made or however you you've changed some it has to do with age some of it has to do with cognitive decision making repeating habits to change some of it has to do with a deeper understanding but uh but sometimes you there's parts of you that don't change at all and it can be a little disconcerting i'm kind of i've been spiraling a bit lately about my age about my relevance about whatever it is that I'm trying to do on stage anymore, if and when and where and how and all that stuff. But I think it's part of my life, but also emotionally, relationship-wise, you know, what am I? How did

I, you know, why am I? That kind of stuff. But ultimately, in terms of saving my mind, terms of saving my mind, which I document in Jerusalem Syndrome, the book, is that somebody had to bring me down to earth. Somebody had to connect me, reconnect me with reality, these broad strokes, this othering, this, you know, now it's all under the flag of Christian fascism and this idea of making America great. This is a full press, folks, by the right, by the unashamed fascists. It's a full press and it's absorbing people every day, breaking their brains, making them intolerant and the othering will become murderous and has in some cases with psychotic people. But that is a harbinger of things to come, depending on the organization in place in terms of the government. So, look, again, not trying to be sad. Happy Fourth of July. Watch your fingers. 4th of July, watch your fingers. But this kind of investigation into conspiracy thinking,

it's worthwhile because it may tell you something about yourself and it may inform you more about what we're up against as critical thinking people and actual free thinkers. But it also will give it a context historically, this conversation and also Robert's book, Operation Mindfuck, QAnon and the cult of Donald Trump. And, you know, you can get that. I don't know. Look for it. You can get it on Amazon. Let's talk to Robert now. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means.

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T's and C's apply. The reason I wanted to talk to you is to contextualize and get some perspective on really the evolution of the conspiracy theory organism. Yes. Right? Right. And because when I was younger, I had a couple of experiences.

First was getting this apocalypse culture book and reading the James Shelby downward. Absolutely. King Kill 33. King Kill 33 degree, which is probably really, in terms of literature, the best conspiracy theory I've ever read. Yeah, I would say that if you were to do a sort of Norton anthology of important nonfiction works of the latter half of the 20th century, you would have to include James Shelby Downer's King Kill 33rd Degree. Nonfiction works. Well, it purports to be nonfiction.

So maybe, you know, at CSULB, I teach a creative writing class called Creative Nonfiction. Hmm. You know. So that would be your book, Operation Mindfuck.

In a way, it is creative nonfiction. Well, it has to be. I mean, you know, who are the, you know, the sort of beacons for creative nonfiction? Would that be, you know, people like Hunter and –

Sure. The New Journalism, Norman Mailer, Joan Didion, Tom Wolfe, Hunter S. Thompson. Absolutely merging personal narrative with fact, with reportage. Right. with facts, with reportage. Right. So when I read that, you know, I was sort of, because I think, oddly, it wasn't really a drug thing,

though I don't know if I can mark the period specifically. Yeah, it might have been because I had cocaine psychosis in the late 80s, in like 87, and it took me a while to shake that. And I was out here here and I was like, I was very involved with an evolving conspiracy of my own making revolving around Hollywood and some buildings. So I had the genetic makeup to,

I had the emotional makeup to sort of believe. Well, Downer talks about the whole concept of mystical toponomy. Is this what you're talking about? The buildings like connecting. Well, Downer talks about the whole concept of mystical toponomy. Is this what you're talking about, the buildings, like connecting? Well, yeah. You know, like, you know, all of it. I mean, it seems like in this book, Secret Societies and Psychological Warfare, the Hoffman book, I mean, he's making a case for that. Sure.

That it's intentional. Sure. Right. Which in your book, you know, you kind of dance around whether or not QAnon and its momentum was guided or just sort of happened with the energy behind it. Right. I mean, at this point, I do think it was guided. Well, I mean, that's what you kind of dump in the last third of the book. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like the indicator being the ex-military guy who was way ahead of the curve.

Yeah. Yeah. Paul Valé. Right. I've always been curious about – like in my book, Jerusalem Syndrome, my memoir, I wrote about being consumed by conspiracies in Washington, D.C. and talking to my buddy who worked for I believe Clinton at that point. Like literally in the White House and me going on about the structure of the mall, the obelisk, the pentagram and the pentagon, you know, the way, you know, just speculating on random information I've got come from conspirators and just telling my friend in a sort of a feverish way, you know, can't you see it, man? And I remember he saved my life because he said,

look, you know, I hear you, but people here just aren't that organized. And it really, it dismantled it enough for me to have a relatively healthy life the i i recently um i was teaching a class and i had a student he he didn't know he had no idea he didn't realize that i myself am a 32nd degree scottite Freemason. So he didn't know that. Yeah. So he was telling me, I saw a picture, a photo that he had on his folder of him and his two buddies and they're dressed in tuxedos. Right. And I go, what's that photo from? Is that like prom night or something?

He was like, oh, no, no. And he told me that he spends a lot of time on the internet. And it was clear from his writing before that he was like really into conspiracy theories. Yeah, yeah. And he goes, me and my buddies, we decided that we were going to try to infiltrate a masonic lodge so we figured out when the night was that they were going to get together yeah we rented these tuxedos and we went to the lodge to try to kind of just like slip in yeah right as if that's possible yeah uh and uh he said he got there and there was just one woman there.

Yeah. And she said, oh, they're not meeting tonight. They haven't met since the beginning of COVID. Yeah. Everything's on Zoom. Yeah. And so they're like, oh. And then she, I guess she was sympathetic or something.

She was like, well, here's the code. If you want to just jump on Zoom and see what they're doing, because it's just an open meeting. And they were like, oh, okay. So they went home. Yeah. And they hop on Zoom to see what's going on. Yeah. And the guy goes, he goes, it blew my mind, man.

He goes, they were talking about setting up some sort of picnic, like a chili cookout. And me and my buddies decided that must be code for like pizza gay, like pizza's code for pedophilia. Like maybe it's code for something. And I was like, yeah, maybe. And in my mind, I was thinking, I know that's just a fucking chili cookout. I know these guys. Yeah, yeah. I know that's just a fucking chili cookout.

I know these guys. Yeah, yeah. So post-QAnon, you can take something as mundane as a chili cookout and transform it into something sinister. Sure. But even before QAnon, if you were in the world of this type of information, which in my recollection, in the early 90s, that was sort of the heyday for sort of morbid hipsters, you know, kind of gravitating to, you know, faces of death videos, videos of, you know, Bud Dwyer blowing his brains out, and then Paranoia Magazine, right, was around in those circles.

I think this must have been around the time that I picked up this stuff. Apocalypse Culture was around that time. In fact, I think I bought my copy of Psychological, Secret Societies and Psychological Warfare from Newspeak,

which is Joan D. Ark's bookstore in Providence, Rhode Island. She ran Paranoia. Right, right. Oh, she ran Paranoia. That's right. She ran Paranoia.

I dedicate the book to her because she bought my first article back in 1996 for Paranoia. Issue number 12. Wow ran Paranoia. I dedicate the book to her because she bought my first article back in 1996 for Paranoia. Issue number 12. Wow. Now, wait. So let me ask you then, because, look, I read the Illuminati trilogy at some point during this.

And I think because my brain was what it was, which I think was some mixture of mild borderline personality disorder and kind of the remnants of psychosis. You know, I was reading Robert Anton Wilson saying like, oh, he's, you know, he's kind of making this kind of lighthearted and fun to disguise the reality of the situation. Right. So, but ultimately, I think what I need to know, and I think what maybe my listeners are interested in or what I'm trying to figure out for myself, is that something that Adam Curtis brought up in one of his documentaries, I'm not sure which one it was, and something that you bring up, and that's known stuff, is that the origin of the Freemason conspiracy, or the Illuminati, I'm sorry, was really a prankster intention, right? Yes. Yeah, absolutely. So the Illuminati, which holds great sway over the minds of aggravated, spiritually

lost morons, was originally a joke. Well, okay, we kind of have to parse it out here because that's what you're here for. It's a little convoluted in the sense there was an Illuminati. Sure. You know, 1776. Yeah. University of Bavaria. Yeah, yeah.

Washington in the apron. Was it Adam Weishaupt? Was it George Washington? Okay. Right. Okay. So Adam Weishaupt actually did begin the secret society of the Illuminati. Yeah. begin the secret society of the Illuminati, you know, as a means of bypassing the power

of organized religion, the Roman Catholic Church, you know, these were scientists and artists who wanted to just do what they wanted to do. And so you had to create a secret society in order to do that in that structured. Right. So you had to have a way to meet so you could just discuss some guy's poem if that's what it is. Right. Exactly. Yeah to have way too meat so you could just discuss some guy's poem, if that's what it is. Right. Exactly. Yeah.

Yeah. Okay. And the Secret Society was, by the way, I've always found it interesting that Mary Shelley's Frankenstein, Victor, where he creates the monster, is the same university, University of Bavaria. That's where he goes. Interesting. In Germany to create the monster. of Bavaria. That's where he goes in Germany to create the monster. And Mary Shelley has the date as 17 blank blank. So we don't know what year. So it's like he could have been hanging around Adam Weishaupt when he was creating his... Now Weishaupt, the creator of the Illuminati,

was he just a libertine? Yes. I think that that's a good way to describe it, a free thinker. Yes, I think that that's a good way to describe it A free thinker And the society itself is short-lived It only exists for a few years And it's not until I talk about in the book about this Kind of hijacking The pendulum going back and forth

Between right and left Particularly in the 50s and early 60s The John Birch Society, particularly in Orange County, very powerful. And they are the ones who bring back the whole Illuminati conspiracy theory, which had kind of faded.

But where did that start? I mean, if you're telling me it was a short-lived sort of secret society of artists and free thinkers that had to find a way to communicate and meet under the church and whatever was going on in Bavaria at the time. When does it get resurrected the first time as some conspiracy, far-reaching conspiracy in the culture of the world? I think it was a very convenient scarecrow whipping boy to, similar to Freemasons, the

Knights Templar, where they're demonized. So the demonization goes back to the 1700s. Absolutely, yes. And that's where you get Ben Franklin, George Washington being associated with the Illuminati and the Freemasons. Right. Now, of course, some of the founding fathers were indeed Freemasons or deists, which is why I always find it amusing when you hear- Deists.

Jefferson was famously a deist. Yeah, yeah. So when people say the roots of United States of America is purely Christian, it's not exactly true. Some of them were deists. And deists is sort of a more spiritual- Yes, more of a- And also appreciators of science uh right science and nature yeah uh so i think in fact it was jefferson who said commenting on the um the bible he said we should just shit can the whole thing but keep keep everything that jesus

said in the new testament keep that shit can yeah the rest of it. Didn't use those exact words. And at the time, like, you know, Ben Franklin in conspiracy lore was this, you know, party animal who was a member of the Hellfire Club in England, correct? Yes, yes. Which was a notoriously debauched bunch of Freemasons. Right. bunch of Freemasons. So if the Illuminati thing starts in 1700, which is a short-lived kind of meeting place for freethinkers and poets and artists and people with big ideas, where does the Freemason thing start? Well, according to traditional mainstream history, Freemasonry begins roughly in the 1700s, but it's already been established now. We've seen actual written evidence of Freemasons meeting as early as the

early 1600s. In fact, I wrote a paper when I was an undergraduate analyzing the Masonic symbolism in Macbeth, and the teacher gave me an F and I met with her and I said, I said, I think there's a disparity here. I was expecting an A and this is an F.

Yeah. And she said, well, you know, mainstream history says Freemasonry didn't begin until 1717. That's, you know, a hundred years

after Macbeth Yeah. was written. Yeah. And I said, yes, but it did exist in oral form before that. I finally managed

to persuade her, and I got it switched to an A. But oddly enough, since then, because that was 1994, since then, actual written documentation has occurred that shows that Freemasons actually did meet as early as the 1600s.

Yeah. But it existed before that, even earlier. Okay. Well, now that we've sort of parsed why the Illuminati was created as a secret society, what was the intention of Freemasonry? Very similar. Very similar in the sense of the entire purpose of it was to create a kind of universalist philosophy of trying to counteract the power of the Roman Catholic Church and say, listen, it doesn't matter what God you believe in. In order to be a Freemason, you have to believe in some sort of higher power. Sure.

But it doesn't matter. We're all just going to put it on the same rubric, the great architect of the universe. This gets rid of these sectarian warfare and just try to nail down the fact that, listen, at the end of the day, this is a metaphor. You know, I mean, Joseph Campbell once said, you know, that all these wars are fought over over metaphors.

Yeah. It was during one of his interviews with Bill Moyer. Yeah. And Bill Moyer said, so you mean all these people, they're killing each other over a metaphor? Yeah. And Joseph Campbell said, yeah, that's essentially that's essentially the case. Well, that's the tribal mind, right? Right.

Yeah. So one of the purposes of Freemasonry was to to cut down on that effect, you know, break down the barriers between these sects, different religions. Let's just put it all under one umbrella. And also to break down on the entire class system because you might have someone in the lodge who is like, you know, the janitor. Yeah. He might be the master of the lodge, but the guy who's the mayor of the town might be beneath him. Right. In the hierarchy.

And that guy's just got to suck it up. Well, right. Exactly. Until he pays his dues. Yeah. Gets his levels. Yeah. So when I first joined my Blue Lodge, which was in Torrance, it's just a weird coincidence

that the master of the lodge at the time was a guy who worked in facilities management on campus at CSU Long Beach. I used to see him driving around in a little white car, you know, to fix the air conditioning and stuff. Yeah, yeah. And then I met him in the lodge, and he was the master. Yeah. I was like, oh, cool. You know, I recognize you. So this was a fraternal organization designed, I guess, you know, what is the, I mean, if it was initially about insulating themselves from the Catholic Church, which was very powerful in both these situations.

Yes. And dictated, you know, in a violent way, how one behaves in culture and, right? Oh, absolutely. Okay. So now, why the need, I don't know about the Illuminati necessarily, but why the need for ritual in Freemasonry? Is it just to make it more special? Well, there's a lot of symbolism that's encoded in the ritual.

Right. I get that. But for what reason? A lot of it, there's a great book called Freemasonry and the Birth of Modern Science by Robert Lomas, who is a Freemason. Yeah. And he kind of goes into this in extreme detail that a lot of this was encoded information about breakthroughs in science, in geometry, in architecture,

and sort of encoding it in a way where if suddenly someone burst in and... Said, we want the plan. Tortured everyone for the secrets, they wouldn't even understand it. Yeah. You know, and these things have passed through, through decades, through hundreds of years, to the extent that I know, for example, at the Blue Lodge level, which is, when I say Blue Lodge, that's the first three degrees, first, second, and third degree. If you want to go past that, you either join the Scottish Rite

or the York Rite, and that's fourth through 32nd. The 33rd is an honorary degree. It's not something that you can request. It's something that's just— Sure, man. And there's like—I've read papers on how, you know, Neil Armstrong did a Masonic ritual on the moon. That's true. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, you got to plant the flag. You know, we did it thanks to the science that was coded before. And since you've read Apocalypse Culture, you'll know that Jack Parsons helped create the rocket fuel that got us to the moon, right?

Yeah, but that guy, you know, that's a Freemason Crowley-eyed crossover. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, his sense of ritual was not limited to the Freemasons. That's right. You get all these branches, you know. I mean, there's, for example, there's lodges that are considered to be clandestine lodges even today. Though, you know, for example, co-masonry. Yeah.

Co-masonry is a form of Freemasonry where women can join. It started in France. Okay. Of course it did. Of course it did. Progressive French. And they're based in Colorado. But there's branches of co-masonry here.

I mean, I've known people who are members of, who are co-masons. There's branches of co-masonry here. I mean, I've known people who are members of – who are co-masons. But in your experience, though, like, you know, in talking about the presence that Freemasonry and the Illuminati hold in the fevered conspiratorial mind and their understanding or belief in global control is not what's talked about at your lodge. No, no, no, no. Before I forget, now, was Weishaupt a Jew? That's a good question. I actually don't know the answer to that. Well, where did the Jews come in in the 1700s?

As you'll see, having read Michael Hoffman's Secret Societies and Psychological Warfare, it's interesting, Hoffman, who is a Holocaust denier. Nonetheless, he's also a student of the occult. That's why I find it interesting, because he's really obsessed with the occult, but he's opposed to it. So you get kind of, sometimes you get accurate information, you know, filtered through his kind of fractured mindset. Well, I mean, I think that's a through line of your book, is that how do you sort it? Because it needs the factual information to actually get, you know, traction in reality. Absolutely.

Any disinformation campaign has to have a core of truth to it. Yeah. Otherwise, it's not going to be believable. Right. So what are you saying about the Jews? So the Kabbalah has always played a major role, particularly in the Scottish Rite. Okay. Albert Pike, who started the Scottish Rite, he was very much into Kabbalah. So a lot of that stuff is pulled into Morals and Dogma, which is like the main book.

And the Scottish Rite's the big one. That's the big Freemason Lodge. Right. That's fourth through 32nd degree is the Scottish Rite. And Albert Pike wrote all the degrees pretty much from the fourth. And how do you get, how do you climb? Well, you, first you have to apply. Once you've gone through the third degree at the Blue Lodge level, you have to apply. Once you've gone through the third degree at the Blue Lodge level, you have to apply.

And you can either go into the York Rite or the Scottish Rite. The York Rite is more Christian-based. I didn't join the York Rite. You can join both. You can do both. Sure. I feel like we're doing outreach for the Freemasons. So listen, people, if you're interested, become one of the global owners of the Jew-run government, global government. It's funny because I have run into people.

I had a girlfriend who lived in Riverside back around 2005. back around 2005. Yeah. And she had these two friends. They were twins named Angel and Bambi, which blew my mind that that was the real, that was the actual name. Yeah.

And they were both really into conspiracy theories. So then when she introduced me as, you know, oh, he's a Freemason, they kind of got a little weird about it. And when I was around them, we would have these conversations like we're having right now. And it all seemed very, uh, friendly. Yeah.

But then when I would leave, my girlfriend would say, yeah, they told me I should break up with you because, you know, you're going to pull me into some kind of sadistic scenario. I was like, and then, but then when I was with them, they would, they would act completely friendly around me. Yeah. Uh, but one night I was there with— Keep your enemies closer. Keep your friends closer, your enemies closer.

That's what it was. I remember the one named Angel took me to the Mission Inn in Riverside and was pointing out the encoded Illuminati symbols in the mural in the Mission Inn. Sure. None of which I recognized, but I, I kind of like, it was nodding and looking for validation. I think she was looking for validation. Yeah. And she had a boyfriend who was her also her drug dealer.

Sure. And she was urging him to ask me a question one night. And finally she was like, just ask him, just ask him. Yeah. And the guy was like, oh, I was just wondering like, how do you join the Freemasons? Like you have to be invited in, right? Like you'd have to invite me in or, or I have to have a relative. And I go, no, I go, you can just, you can just go. In fact, there's actually a rule that you should not supposed to recruit. You're not supposed to go out and tell someone you should join. It has to be someone's like voluntary. Being curious, yeah.

Yeah, you have to be willing to do it. Yeah, yeah. And so you just go and you ask for the application, you pay the application fee, and then they'll send people, if you're married, they'll send people out to talk to your wife and say, is she okay with this? If she's not okay, they'll just drop it. Yeah. Is she going to mind you wearing the hats and saying the things? Yeah. Are you going to be disturbed by this? If she says, yeah,

I'm disturbed, then they'll just drop it. Oh, interesting. Or they may go and talk to people you know or look into your background. Do you have a criminal background? Right. We don't want any troublemakers in the Masons. We don't want any troublemakers in the Masons. Yes, absolutely. Unless you're Jack the Ripper. Well, you know, that's funny. The Blue Lodge, they asked me to write an essay for their website that was like the top 20 recommended books on Freemasonry.

And so from my perspective, I thought it was important to include some anti-Masonic books because that's part of it. Sure. It's the yin yang, you know, if you want to understand how people perceive Freemasonry, you should include these. So I included Jack the Ripper, the final solution by Stephen Knight and some other, one was a book called the deadly deception, which is by like a Christian evangelical who had been a Freemason and left. Yeah. And I thought it was important to include these things. Yeah. And the guy called me and said, why did you include these anti-Masonic texts in the list? I go, well, it's really an important part of it. And a lot of the guys at the lodge were not aware of the perception.

They weren't aware. Most of them are older. Right. How are they going to keep up? The guys with the AOL accounts. How are they going to know about Paranoia magazine? Even before that. Sure.

Because at one point they were having. But they didn't know any Birchers? No. They did have experience. I remember being told stories about going on. This one guy told me he went on a camping trip and he had the Masonic bumper sticker. Sure. And the Southern Baptists had left all these like Jack T. Chick, the Curse of Baphomet.

The tracks. The pamphlets on the windshield. They make those down on York Boulevard over here. I think, I don't know if he's still the, like they used to publish them down there. The Jack T. Chick? Yeah. Were you here? Well, they have a, you can, there was a place down in York that had all those—the tracks, you know, the comics, right?

That's what you're talking about. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know where he's from originally. I think he is based in California. Yeah. I think it was down on York. It was at least one of the places. That's great.

Jack T. Chick, of course, I think he's passed away by this point. But they're still producing movies. Of course. They're great. You used to—when I was a kid, you'd find them on the street and shit. Absolutely. And you'd be like, what is this? And it would just be these weird little moral comic books.

And they were the greatest because some of them were dirty. Steve Bissett, who's a comic book artist, he worked with Alan Moore on Swamp Thing. Oh, yeah. I know that guy. Great. Bissett points out that Jack Cheek is the most successful underground cartoonist who ever lived. Yeah. And more so than Robert Crumb.

Sure. Interesting. Because it was, everybody had access to this. Yeah. I mean, I would find them on bus benches. Yeah, and they were perverse. They were great. There was like demon fucking.

There was all kinds of people. Absolutely. And you can tell there's different art styles. There's the ones that Jack T. Chick drew. Right. And then he had an assistant who did a lot of, had a more realistic style. Okay. But they're all fascinating.

And they're kind of strange, almost like outsider artwork. Sure. But several of them are anti-Masonic, the Curse of Baphomet. Right. There's a classic anti-Mormon one, which has my favorite Jack T. Chick panel of all time. Yeah. You see two Mormons from the back. They're knocking at the door.

Yeah. You see a woman, and she's looking through the curtains. Yeah. Out at the Mormons. Yeah. And the thought balloon reads, gasp, the Mormons, exclamation point. So. Well, also, like, you know, in popular culture, when was the last time you watched The Man Who Would Be King?

I mean, that's a Freemason movie. Absolutely. And it's a great one. Well, I suspect Houston was a Freemason. Had to be. Because you also see that symbolism in Treasure of the Sierra Madre. Interesting. If you remember at the beginning where the guy asked him for, you know, can you give me a handout?

And then Humphrey Bogart, you know, says, you know, take a walk or whatever. Yeah. That happens three times. And each time he, there's a, I think the guy's wearing a Masonic ring. Uh-huh. And then he even uses a Masonic phrase.

Oh, was that, but wasn't that played by Houston? Wasn't the guy in the white suit? Yes, yes, you're right. I haven't seen it in so many years. Yeah, yeah. But yes, there's Masonic symbolism in Treasure of the Sierra Madre and in The Man Who Would Be King. Okay. So that's interesting because in a contemporary application of what it means to be a Mason and engaging in the symbolism, it gives you a sense of connectivity with history that can

go back as far as unknown tribes in the lost world, like the man who would be king. Right. But certainly Egyptian mythology is incorporated into the symbolism, right? Absolutely. So then you sort of get this way of kind of writing history. And if you have a creative bent and want to use the narrative for story, that is an interesting way to present coded material with a secret nod to a historical brotherhood? Kipling was clearly drawing upon – there was a school of Freemasonry called the Anthropological School. And these were Freemasons who were really obsessed with going around various areas of the world and finding like prehistorical evidence of Freemasonry.

Well, that's the Raiders of the Lost Ark. That's Raiders of the Lost Ark. That's Raiders of the Lost Ark. There's a lot of Masonic symbolism in there. Spielberg has a huge Masonic library. Does he? Yes. Uh-huh. And so you might say,

if Michael Hoffman was listening to this, he might- Is he alive? He's alive, yeah. He lives in Coeur d'Alene, Idaho. Of course he does. I have actually corresponded with him. Oh, yeah?

Was he living in a bunker up there with several generations of wrong-minded white people? I think that that's a safe guess. What was your correspondence with him? This was back in 2000. And I had ordered away for a pamphlet that he published called Masonic Assassination. And there were three chapters. The first chapter was about how the Masons had killed Joseph Smith. Sure.

The other one was about how they had killed— Battling secret societies. Yes. Yeah. Well, the Mormons grow out of the Freemasons. Joseph Smith had been a Mason. Sure. Where do you think you get golden plates? I mean, you got to make up a symbol, man. It's all hinging on the metaphor, like Joe Campbell said. Absolutely. Yes. I mean, and the people who manufacture the best metaphor have the longer lasting religion. or lasting religion.

Right now with QAnon, it's who can manufacture the best flags and t-shirts and hats. Man, when I see them out in the world with their flags, I'm like, holy shit, someone is doing

some design work. Do you know? Well, absolutely. I saw Jordan Klopper, you know, the Daily Show, right? He was there January 6th. Then about six months later,

he was doing his first Trump rally after all that. And at one point, he said, I saw something I thought I'd never seen before. And then he goes, there's queues everywhere. I thought it was fascinating that he was surprised because I wasn't surprised. I knew that January 6th wasn't going to end that thing. Of course. It was going to solidify it. Yeah, go ahead.

There's a recent poll that said 30% of Americans are sympathetic to QAnon. Sure, sure. Yeah, well, that's nice. God forbid it be the Jew. Oh, Michael Hoffman. Yeah. I sent him, oh, yeah, and then the third chapter was about assassinating Edgar Allan Poe, that the Masons had killed Poe.

Yeah. Because he had written The Cask of Amatolado. Yeah. And there's a brief sequence in there that has like a kind of jab against the Freemasons. Yeah. So he thought that the Masons read that and they killed him three years later. And so I wrote a— God, it's so amazing what you can do with history if you're creative.

Absolutely. And that's the whole—you know, I wrote something in Jerusalem Syndrome, my book, where I said conspiracy theories are good for stupid people who want to feel smart and smart people who don't want to do their homework. That's pretty good. That's a pretty good aphorism. Michael, particularly if you're, you know, obviously every time you read something and you're looking at it through one perspective, you're always going to see that same thing.

But also like the – we can talk about this in a second as soon as I ask this other question. But it's also about having closure that speaks to your fears and also that supports your vague point of view about what is real and what isn't, right? And also what is keeping you down. It seems that with the Illuminati, with the – oh, we didn't – I'd like to – before we go here about Christians is the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. Sure. Now, I never read what you said in your book that it was – it could have initially been a satire.

Yes. It's generally regarded that it was originally a piece of fiction that had absolutely nothing to do with Nazis, with the Jews. But this is what – this is the seed of what they hang the entire Jew-run global government on. Yes. It was a play. It was a satirical play. In reaction to what? The church again?

Yes. It was a completely different context. They reaction to what the church again yes it was a completely different context they just they just pulled out you know one word and then replace it who is they the the nazis the propaganda joseph gerber so that's where that came oh yeah they they changed it they altered it on purpose so that was that was actually really in terms of what we're talking about the most modern adaptation and use of conspiracy as propaganda that was taken from fiction that might have been sort of anti-establishment art.

Yes, that's why. Yes, absolutely. That's why. That's another example of the hijacking, flipping phenomenon I talk about in the book. On January 6th, I remember as I was watching everything unfold, I wrote my notebook. It suddenly struck me, oh, QAnon equals Joseph Goebbels' propaganda arm. Yeah. And then the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers are like the SS and the brown shirts.

Except they don't dress as well. That's true. They need a better design. Well, I do a joke in my special is that we're just waiting for the stupids to choose a uniform. So, got to get a designer involved. Apparently, they're too busy working on Q flags and hats. So, someone's got to get a designer involved. Apparently, they're too busy working on Q flags and hats. Right, exactly. They don't, yeah, they need someone,

they need like a Lenny Riefenstahl or someone to come in. Let's not push too hard. You know, Bannon kind of presented himself as the Lenny Riefenstahl, but, you know, it turns out he's just a hack. Like, God forbid anybody with a real creative vision gets hold of these guys, we're in trouble. But, you know, that, you know, but from what you're saying, well, let's get back to the Jews,

is that, you know, outside of historically the Jews being marginalized, you know, because of they were required in medieval society to do things Christians weren't legally allowed to do, in medieval society to do things Christians weren't legally allowed to do, like lend money and whatnot. So those stereotypes were built, you know, like the Rothschild arm of the Jew-run world conspiracy comes out of the banking family establishing themselves during medieval times as moneylenders because Christians weren't allowed to. Correct? Right. Okay. Absolutely. So that's that part of the anti-Semitic trope. The other part was kind of exploded by Goebbels taking the elders of Zion and reframing it as proof that Jews need to

be leveled, killed. And also, and this is't that well known, during the Holocaust, Freemasons were wiped out as well. They would shut down the Masonic Lodges early on, and they viewed them as being Jew-infected secret societies, and they needed to be wiped out. Were they? Oh, yeah. Were they Jew-infected secret societies and they needed to be wiped out. Were they? Oh, yeah. Were they Jew-infected secret societies? Well, I mean, I assume there might have been overlap. I mean, there might have been some Jews in the free races. But I think that like in order for Nazism or fascism in general to work,

and it's sort of like, you know, the only hope that we have is that we're a federalized system. I mean, it seems like, you know, that there's going to be, it's going to be a big undertaking to completely usurp the American government all across the board, I would think. Well, that's why it's, what's concerning is when you see so many members of the military

and law enforcement. Yeah, I know, I know. Into QAnon. Well, that's really got me spooked and crazy, but not just into QAnon, but into, you know, I know. Into QAnon. Well, that's really got me spooked and crazy. But not just into QAnon, but into shameless white nationalism and fascism. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, and I know that this is the origin myth of new American fascism. I get it, right?

Yeah, yeah. And they're retrieving things that had, you know, the satanic panic and anti-Masonic lore. Well, yeah, it incorporates all that. But real quick, before we get to – I'm just trying to lay a nice firm bedrock here. So the Freemasons were actually victimized during Nazi Germany because fascism can't exist with alternative secret societies. Right. Yes, a rival. Right.

Right. Yes. Rival. Right. But in that, in Nazism, because they were so thorough and there seemed to be some very inspired geniuses in there around this stuff, you know, the Jews got to go. The Catholics got to go. Freemasons got to go. And we have to reinterpret Christianity to serve our end. Yes.

Yes. Have you seen the in Jacksonville, Florida, just recently, there is this white supremacist group has been going around creating nine-foot-tall holograms that they project onto the sides of buildings that are swastikas wrapped around Christian crosses. This is the problem. Christian fascism is the problem. And it is this American version of it. version of it, like, you know, coming up through the second time I came in contact with the one world government, you know, it was around the Bush administration and there was talk about, but like all this stuff that really runs the world, you know, is, is not hiding, you know, the, you know, there's, you know, people were hung up on the trilateral commission.

They were, you know, hung up on, you know, this one world government thing, but that's all that was by design. That is a thing, but it's got nothing to do with Jewish bankers, aside from in a business sense. Right. You know, it is the sort of end game of capitalism. Sure. Right?

Yeah. So the G6, that's where your conspiracy is, right? Yeah. Yeah. I mean, John Ronson, who did, you know, the men who stare at goats. Yeah. I've interviewed that guy. I like that guy. Yeah. He did this whole documentary called, what was it? The Masters

of the World. Yeah. Oh, the Bohemian Grove thing? Bohemian Grove, right. He was the one who asked Alex Jones to portray him. By the way, did you know, he first asked David Icke to do it, and David Icke refused. He said, he goes, that's where they shapeshift into reptilians. I don't want to see that.

That's a bohemian growth. So David Icke – see, that's the one thing people don't realize. They're like, these guys believe this shit. Yes. On some level, they have to believe. They are grifters. I think Alex Jones is a – he doesn't know anymore from his own bullshit. Yeah.

But they're grifters. You know, there's a hustle to it. He was really a vitamin salesman is really what he was, right? And whether he believes all that stuff or not, he sort of have to after a certain point. So Ike believed it. Yeah. It's just like I suspect that L.R. Hubbard, when he started Scientology, probably knew that all this was fiction.

Well, of course. I mean, he was the greatest grifter of all. And he was like locked in with not unlike Manson, who went a different direction and fortunately didn't become powerful as anything other than a bad witch who fueled murderers and, you know, and whose prosecution helped end the 60s at the hands of the conservatives. Right. prosecution helped end the 60s at the hands of the conservatives, right? So, but what you get with Hubbard is a very calculating dude who was building a spiritual system by wandering around the Los Angeles countryside and writing sci-fi novels and

hanging out with Crowleyites, right? And Parsons. Yes. Getting back to that. Yeah. Well, Hubbard- Parsons, the rocket scientist and his wife. Yes.

Marjorie Cameron. Yes. Yes. There's the story that the science fiction writer, Harne Ellison. Yeah. I quote him at one point in the book. He talked about being at the backyard barbecue in New York. Yeah.

And Hubbard's there. And Hubbard was among the people they looked up to because he was the reigning king of Pulp Fiction. Yeah. And Hubbard said, I'm tired of making a penny a word. I think I want to start a religion. And everyone at the party goes, ha, oh, Ron. fiction. Yeah. And Hubbard said, I'm tired of making a penny a word. I think I want to start a religion. And everyone at the party

goes, ha, Ron. Yeah. And they didn't know he was absolutely completely serious about it. Yeah. And the interesting thing about that,

it was because he wanted to make more money. He wanted to make more money, yeah. And he figured out how to do it. So he created... Creating the metaphors, dude.

That's the thing. I always wondered if that's why he felt the desire to make Xenu. Because in order to be a religion, you need to have some sort of deity. Of course. You need to have a creation myth. Yeah. And so he decided to create a creation myth to make it an actual church so it could be income tax free and all of that.

And so at some point, I think he began to believe his own bullshit. Well, I think that comes with the inflation of ego. I mean, like, I don't know that it happens like one day you believe it. I think that the feelings of power, you know, change your perception of things. Why not believe it? If you surround yourself with people who are treating you like a god, then why would you not, you know, maybe I am, you know. In fact, you know, I live in. That's the man who would be king.

Exactly. Exactly. And I live in Long Beach. Yeah. And that's where Hubbard used to, there's a guy named Bent Corden who was a member of Scientology. He wrote a book called Errol Hubbard, Madman or Messiah. Yeah. And Bent Corden was living in Long Beach at one point when he wrote the book.

And it was in Long Beach where Hubbard would come in in disguise. Yeah. Because he was wanted for tax evasion both in the United States and in England. Uh-huh. So he was on his yacht Excalibur. Yeah. Going back and forth between the two. But sometimes he would wear a wig and a hat and come into the port of Long Beach and hang out. Yeah. I don't know, go to theur. Yeah. Going back and forth between the two, but sometimes he would wear a wig and a hat and

come into the port of Long Beach and hang out there. I don't know, go to the pike. Yeah. Hang out, I don't know. But it's just, it's fascinating to think of this guy. Basically, I heard an interview with Neil Gaiman once where someone asked Neil Gaiman, if you weren't a writer, what would you be? What would be your ideal career if you were not a writer? And Neil Gaiman said,

I think it would be lovely if people came to me and said, I want a religion, uh, just tailored for me. Uh, and this, this is what I want in it, the, the various philosophies and, uh, and, and maybe the, the creation myth would have this sort of point to it, but I don't know how to do that because I'm not a writer. So Neil Gaiman said that his job would be to create the creation myth to suit what you wanted and make the philosophy fit

with the creation myth. And people could just come to him and ask for these things. And I thought, what a lovely idea. That's sort of like a positive version of what people like Hubbard and these other people do. They create like

negative creation myths. Well, they have to be up against something. They have to create an enemy and they also have to embed the myth with all, everything's going to

come back to worship me. You know, I'm the solution. I mean, that's the thing with QAnon. you know i'm the solution i mean that's the thing with with q anon it always comes back to well trump's the solution um yeah and and and the modern form uh so freemasons always been a stickler for christians and the illuminati in its current sort of manifestation as a conspiracy theory was popularized in the late 60s by those two sort of, you know,

anarchist hippies, right? Right, right. So that's the first- What's their names? Robert Shea and Robert Anton Wilson and Cary Thornley. Yeah, right. Well, Anton Wilson did the book,

but I thought that was after the fact. Wasn't it? Didn't it start with those other two guys? Greg Hill and Cary Thornley were the, who knew Lee Harvey Oswald. Yeah. It was friends with, Cary Thornley was the, who knew Lee Harvey Oswald. Yeah. It was friends with, Cary Thornley was friends with Lee Harvey Oswald. Before he killed him.

Yeah, yeah. He wrote a book about Oswald before Oswald had anything to do with the JK assassination. It's called The Idle Warriors. It's a novel. Yeah. About his time in the Marines, Cary Thornley's time in the Marines. And there's a character who's based on Oswald. Yeah.

And the whole manuscript was written before the assassination. And then Cary Thornley is a nexus point of strangeness, because then later on he works for Jim Garrison. And Jim Garrison, when he realized that Cary Thornley used to know Lee Harvey Oswald, thought that Cary Thornley was part of some conspiracy against him. Oh, the guy who was building the big conspiracy. Right, right. And then later,

Cary Thornley thought that he was some sort of mind-controlled subject. Oh, that he was a pawn. Yeah, a Manchurian candidate of some kind. And so they create the Discordia, the Principia Discordia, which is this kind of like pre-subgenius, you know, fake religion,

you know, satirical religion. Yeah. And Robert Anton Wilson, who was- That was the time of, like, this was the not left, not right, sort of, you know, mid to late 60s anarchist version of taking down the system. Absolutely. Chaos. Anti-establishment chaos magic.

Right. Yeah. Okay. And they see the Birchers getting all this traction, accusing fluoride in the water is a mind control. Sure. Communist mind control. Yeah. And they bring back the Illuminati and they say all these liberals are members of the Illuminati. So that was the Birchers.

That's the Birchers, right? They did it. So they're the ones that, they're the real predecessors. Coming out of Orange County. In the conservative movement. Yeah. Okay. So that's where your elders come from.

Right. Right. And then Robert Anton Wilson and these guys see this and think, oh, great, let's hijack this. Right. And so then they start creating their own anonymous pamphlets. And then Robert Anton Wilson is using his position as an editor at Playboy. Yeah. He was the letters editor.

Yeah. So he would write letters and publish them in the letters page. Yeah. Saying, you know, uh, Henry Kissinger's a member of the Illuminati. Right.

Uh, Richard Nixon is secretly a member of the Freemasons. Right. And, uh, and then, but, and this is how this differs from QAnon.

Yeah. Is that they actually had a sense of humor and a certain puckishness about them that they would actually publish letters saying that Robert Anton Wilson was a member of the Illuminati. Who would? They themselves. Okay. Robert Anton Wilson would write a letter. Well, the other difference also is that they're just sowing seeds of chaos to dismantle the bullshit. They're just sowing seeds of chaos to dismantle the bullshit, whereas QAnon, you know, has an objective that is political.

You know, theirs was just to start shit, right? Well, to start shit and to dismantle the Berkshire propaganda. You know, now you're chipping away at that. the the bircher propaganda yeah you know like you now you're chipping away at that and that now there are now you have that's when the illuminati becomes a rorschach symbol so you have like the liberals who think that the illuminati are nazis secretly nazi running the country and then you have like the right-wingers no no the illuminati are secretly communist and jews and jews yeah secretly controlling yeah uh controlling the country. And the Illuminati at that point becomes this weird inkblot test. So the Freemasons were always sort of there.

And then the Illuminati gets the new treatment in the 60s by the Birchers and by the anarcho-hippie guys, the Discordia guys. Sure. hippie guys, the discordia guys, right? But ultimately, you know, when I, what I was going to get around to was the other exposure I had to this was, you know, probably in George Bush seniors period, I went to some weird meeting at a hotel somewhere. Cause I saw an advertisement for the, the new world order. And I, it must've been a Bircher cause they, it was a guy that was doing out handouts. It was, maybe it was Lennon LaRouche. It was one, it must've been one Bircher because it was a guy that was doing out handouts. Maybe it was Lionel LaRouche. It must have been one of his guys. It wasn't him.

But the two books that were recommended and sold were the Ralph Epperson books, which is The New World Order and The Unseen Hand. Yes. Yes. I have both of those. Those are Bircher, right? Well, essentially, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

And it could have been a LaRouche. That's what I think it was. But it was all, you know, look at the money, you know, the pyramid, the eye in the pyramid, all the way through it. Yeah. Yeah. That was the trip. So that's a Bercher trip. And what year was this?

I don't know, dude. It must have been, you know, in the early 90s. Early 90s. Now, seeing how far this particular edition of Apocalypse Culture you have is a first edition. So you bought this

at the time when it came out. So did, What time was that? Well, this is, I think, 89,

I believe. 87. Yeah, so it would have been around there probably. I'm just curious, was this a personal obsession of yours

or did you have friends who were also into this kind of thing? Like, I bought, I'm trying to remember where I got that. Like I got, I think it was like, I think it was in New York and there was stuff going on. There were bookstores around, you know, and the Amok Press like meant something, you know, and like, so did Semiotext. I was trying to wrap my head around a lot of stuff. And Semiotext was primarily philosophy that I couldn't quite handle. And I'm trying to remember where I picked up that first edition of Apocalypse Culture. I'm trying to think what bookstore I got it in, but I was so thrilled about it.

And then I interviewed Parfait before he died too. Oh, did you? Yeah. Oh, I should – Dig it up. Dig it up. Yeah, yeah. You know, and I was just – I just became fascinated with this world because, like, the outsider art thing in there.

And then, like, it just, like, I don't, I wish I remember where I bought it. But it was almost like it gave me an entirely new template for my mind. Yeah. Which I think was the goal of that book. Absolutely. I think Robert Anton Wilson saw conspiracy theory as another as a mind-altering venue. Isn't Operation Mindfuck

one of his sayings? Well, Operation Mindfuck is the, that's the discordian yeah, yeah, it comes out of Illuminatus first and then Cosmic Trigger later on. And Operation Mindfuck is what we've been describing. So he thought it was a

change in perception, a mind alter. Yeah. In other words, sort of like you could put conspiracy theory into the same category as, say, ceremonial magic. Right. LSD. Yeah. You know, the secret society. Oh, my God.

Really? That's true. That's how I see. That's a context that helps me. Yeah. In terms of it's something that's a circuit breaker. Right, so he was like into the mind fuck. Yeah, in a positive way, in the sense of this is, I once interviewed Bishop Stephen Heller, who's the Gnostic bishop in LA.

Yeah. And I asked him if, what was it about Gnosticism that was so taboo? Yeah. What was it that Christians and the mainstream culture didn't like about it? And he said, well, it was because it was a way of seeing society in a completely different context. Yeah. It was that aspect of it that was so uh fearful uh and and so and and i think the early um masonic initiations like when you went

to the third degree yeah was an early attempt to create a circuit breaker in your brain you know this was an attempt to take you to a different mind space right uh and you can do that with ceremonial magic uh which is why it was like there's some of that in freemasonry yes and there's some of it like and that's what the whole crowley trip and and and heller said um he was talking about how he knew israel rigardi uh's Crowley's legacy, or guy. Yeah, and Regardi said that you should have some rooting

in psychology before you attempt ceremonial magic because it can really screw with your head. And Heller said, but the problem is the exact opposite people are attracted to it. So if you have any kind of like personality disorder or anything like this, you probably shouldn't, you know, go into ceremonial magic.

Without having a context. Without having some grounding. Grounding. So like when you go to find your answers, you can come back. Yes. And I would say that conspiracy theory is that it's almost the same as ceremonial magic. You should have some grounding before you go into it because otherwise you're going to get lost in the void and not come back again.

But here we go with QAnon. You're saying that that is exactly the intention in terms of old school propaganda. It's weaponized. It's weaponized, but it's an amalgamation of at least a half dozen pre-existing conspiracy theories. Absolutely. And all this stuff is – it seems like almost all of the pushback against these things or the interpretation of the world in this way is fundamentally some form of Christianity. Yes. And so QAnon, after the beginning of it, sought to, in your book, I think the supposition is at a certain point, they realized they got to give some meat to the Christians because those are going to be the ones that drive it. Because in my mind, if you believe in God, you'll believe anything.

So they needed to get those guys. They need to get the Christians. So that's when it became, it evolved into that. I think what's ingenious about QAnon is I think somebody at some point looked at, say, the George W. Bush administration. Right. Where the base was evangelical Christians. Yes. And someone said, why limit us to that? And so they create a mythology, a mythos, QAnon mythos, that is kind of a big tent.

Yeah. It goes beyond just evangelical Christians. It includes them. It includes your friend who you were emailing with. The guy who got turned. Exactly.

Exactly. That's how I got into it because right at the beginning of the lockdown, which I'm sure probably happened to a lot of people. You start talking to people you hadn't talked to in a long time.

Sure, man. Family members you lost touch with. I'm talking to a friend of mine who is about 10 years older than me. Yeah. Uh, he lives, lives in the Midwest. Uh,

and, uh, I'm talking to him about teaching my creative writing classes on zoom, how weird that is. Yeah. Uh, and he says suddenly, uh,

Oh, well, I think COVID-19 is going to be a really, a good thing, a positive thing. Yeah. And I said, Oh,

well, why? Uh, and he said, well, we and he said well we you know when trump is re-elected yeah uh he's he's gonna he's clean he's clearing out the dumbs uh he's gonna get rid of the black hats um all the people who are involved in this adrenochrome trafficking area and i'm like now i knew i was aware of qAnon. In fact, I have a friend who was there when the first post appeared on 4chan because this guy lives on 4chan. Yeah.

And but so I was aware of it vaguely, but I didn't think it was worth my attention. But for you, outside of, you know, what are black hats, you knew what adrenochrome was, right? Well, sure. I mean, having, I use, I've taught fear and loathing in Las Vegas in my composition classes off and on for like 20 years so I it's funny I used to include

a little like I would create this little quiz and I used to I had this bonus question which was what is adrenochrome

and people if they read the section they would know how to answer it then post 2017 I started getting responses like,

adrenochrome is the drug that is used, that is taken out of the children who are kidnapped by the Illuminati. You know, the students are like writing this as if it's like a factual thing. Really? Is that true? Yeah. Yeah. So you've got young people who are like, who looked it up, and they're like, oh, well, this is what it is. Yeah, this is what it is.

It's taken out of the adrenal glands of the kids that got in the caves. Yeah, right, right. Illuminati, you know. I actually think I may have discovered the source of Hunter S. Thompson's inspiration for using adrenochrome in that section of Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas. Because in the context of the book, you know, Duke and Gonzo are in the hotel. And Gonzo, who's an attorney, says, I was representing the Satanist freak and he couldn't pay me,

so he gave me this adrenochrome taken from the pineal gland of a living person and it takes you higher than you've ever been before. Yeah. So I was reading the collected letters of Hunter S. Thompson, The Proud Highway, and in there he mentions that he had just read in the late 50s

Brave New World, Hxley's book yeah uh so i i thought well it's reason he doesn't mention it but it's reasonable to assume that he probably also read brave new world revisited by huxley which is a collection of essays yeah that huxley wrote in 58 reflecting back on brave new world and saying how close are we to what i right imagine in the 30s and uh there's four chapters in there, chapter four, five, six, and seven that I always assign to my students because it's so amazingly pressing and what's going on now. I really recommend pulling out Brave New World Revisited, read chapters four, five, six, and seven, and just think about what he's saying in context and now.

Oh, interesting. But there's one paragraph there. I can't, it's one of those chapters where he starts talking about adrenochrome, which is an actual chemical that's formed in the brain. It's not a recreational drug. But I imagine a young Hunter S. Thompson reading it and plucking that word out and it going into the back of his brain. Sure, man. And then years later, he's writing Fear and Loathing and then adrenochrome, that idea comes out. Yeah, it's like Burroughs, you know, searching for ibogaine.

Yeah. Which he called telepathine. Yeah. Right. So like it's that the quest for the perfect eye. Absolutely. Absolutely. It seems like the bourgeois has landed on ayahuasca.

But those guys were looking for something deeper, man. Right. Yeah. But those guys were looking for something deeper, man. Right. Yeah. And that whole idea of extracting the pineal gland and then taking it and making you younger. Yeah.

There's a movie from the late, no, 1960. Yeah. Directed by Edward Dean called The Leech Woman. This black and white universal horror movie. It's about these white explorers going to Africa and they discover this tribe and the members, the natives,

have a ring with a spike on it and during this ritual they spike the back of your neck and then the spike pulls out your pineal gland

while you're still alive. Then they give it to the leech woman. She drinks it and she becomes younger and then she goes to Los Angeles and then the adrenochrome, well, they don't call it adrenochrome, but the pine uh-huh and then she goes to los angeles yeah and then the

adrenochrome the well they don't call it adrenochrome but the pineal fluid runs out yeah so she has to keep killing people to remain young yeah uh and i thought that's what's fascinating about q anon it's a full pulling in like pop culture but but but like i think the big challenge of the book is that like clearly there's all this sort of satanic imagery. And I think a lot of us who know that once you are fully able to objectify the enemy in religious terms, you're just shy of being able to kill them without conscience. Absolutely. So there's no difference between a Democrat and a Satanist in the minds of the initiated. And there's no difference between – this explains the dichotomy on January 6th of people wearing

Blue Lives Matter shirt attacking cops. Yeah. Because if you're preventing them from going into the Capitol and saving the children that are underneath in the dungeon, you're not a blue life anymore. Yeah. You're either a demon in human form, like literally perceive you as being a demon in human form. Or you're a tool of the demons. So the people that really believe, you know, believe in these, you know, subter with Satan, are with the demons, and they're not really human.

And there are people that – because this imagery is proven effective in almost any tribal culture. So they've somehow planted it through the psychic vessel of modern Christianity into the brains of these people that are terrified. Absolutely. Well, Marshall McLuhan said that with technological advancement comes the loss of identity, and with the loss of identity comes violence. The loss of identity leads to violence. I think he said that. That's a paraphrase, but it's from Cultures or Business, I think.

That kind of sums it up right there. You know, they're frightened and then now you have a savior coming in with a mythos that explains why you're frightened and who you should be frightened of. So the savior is Trump as propped up by the propagandists. Sure.

You know, like, you know, whatever he believes, it's all about him. But, you know, because of his nature, like the pass he was given by the evangelical community of, you know, sometimes God chooses monsters to, you know, like he's just a ramming rod. Yes. You know, for fascism. Right. But, you know, the higher-ups in the Christian infrastructure or political world are, you know, they got a good thing going. And most of them are fairly self-aware grifters who are, you know, leading their flocks of whatever, but they know how to get on board for the big win and who they're going to go with.

And to be fair, there are some Christian preachers, pastors, who I've read interviews with them where they have tried to speak out against QAnon because they knew how many of their congregation were into it. Yeah. And they're just outed. They're just like, okay, you get out of here. You know, you're obviously working with Satan. And some of them have had to like toe the line. Oh, I better not say anything about QAnon. The congregation is going to throw me out of the signs. The world is ending or whatever. But, you know, what is there needs to be some things done in Israel for the shit the Christian world is rooted on, you know, getting Jews out of America to Israel, which is the intention of Israel, because they believe we all got to be there in order for the thing to go down. For the end to happen. So it's not necessarily

about killing Jews, but it is about getting us to Israel. Which, there's a paradox there that's always confused me about evangelical Christians, particularly those who believe in the rapture and that the end times are coming. One of the signs is the decadence of society, right? So why did they care about Drag Queen Story Hour? We think they'd be celebrating it, right? Right. Oh, it's coming.

We should be happy. Why are we stopping it? Well, but see, that's also, you know, the decadence is also a signifier of the intent of fascism, right? You know, like in Berlin. I mean, it was the decadence is what sort of it becomes the root of what we're working against. So that is what you're saying, that there is a conflict of interest there. And there's also the, you're familiar with the red heifer?

Yes. But yeah, has it come? Did they find it? No, they keep trying to genetically engineer the red heifer. The red heifer is one of the indicators of the second coming. Yeah, and it has to be purely a red heifer. A red heifer, yeah. And they tried to genetically engineer one, you know, and try-

But the Kabbalistic Orthodox Jews are in on this, right? Aren't they needed? Right. That's the sort of weird alliance. Sure. That's why- Yeah, that's why they pray at the walls. They can't get to the mount because the dome of the rock is there.

And the second temple needs to be rebuilt. Yeah. There are extremist Israeli factions and extremist Christians in America who are like teaming up together. For the metaphor. Yeah, for the metaphor. Right. To make the metaphor literal.

That's right. Yeah. Well, that's the big problem. That's the problem. Is the manifesting of the metaphor, making it literal through repetition, through ritualistic, propagandistic black magic. Yeah. Right. That's the main propaganda.

Yeah. Yeah, right. That's the main propaganda. of demons, a little bit of 50s and 40s sci-fi here and there, bits and pieces of crackpots from the past and their narratives. So in the last part of the book, I mean, where does it start in earnest for you? I know it starts on 4chan and it becomes an issue, but the seed of it, do you think was nefarious and organized? I think I have two thoughts on that. Okay. One is that it's possible that the first post that appeared on 4chan, where the dude calling

himself Q posted a photo of a Christmas tree, and it was clearly taken in the White House. And it could be that that initial post was a genuine you know who yeah that that was this that was cute right okay uh and then and then either quickly hijacked you know by trolls by trolls yeah or by uh the these op these cyclops psyop operatives who saw a good military yeah your guys including paul Paul Vallely is one of them. Who is that guy? Okay. This is very interesting because right after the lockdown, there was a kind of QAnon recruitment

video that took the internet by storm called Out of Shadows. Yeah. They never mentioned QAnon. Right. But ultimately, that's everything in there is QAnon stuff. Right. And they do focus on Pizzagate at the end, which is, you know. Sure.

That's what brought it to the masses. That's what brought it to the masses. That's what brought it to the masses. Yeah. And so at one point, it begins ostensibly saying this is a documentary about how Hollywood is used to insert propaganda into the American consciousness, which is true. Hollywood has been used for this propaganda arm of the government going back to World War II, right? Right. And so it begins with a valid thesis. You know, you could do a whole documentary about that.

Yeah, sure. Within eight minutes, it's gone off into the twilight zone. And now they're talking about this guy named Michael Aquino, who if you read Behold the Pale Horse by William Cooper, you'll know that michael aquino was a uh a psychological warfare officer uh he was a satanist or rather technically he was a setian he used to be a member of the church of satan with anton lave but yeah but that was a bunch of you know carnival hacks yes well aquino thought so too so that's why he broke away from lave yeah and chart started the temple of set okay so that was more Crowley moving towards Crowley? Yeah.

Or an arm of that type of magic? More different from Crowley. It's more hardcore than Crowley. Okay. Because like Anton LeVay was just a guy who wanted to fuck a lot. This is an interesting, I'm going off on a slight tangent but it's interesting Anton LaVey was hugely influenced by the 1940s version

of Nightmare Alley the film sure Nightmare Alley yeah del Toro just well he was a carny LaVey

he was a carny yeah and he his name was Stanton uh huh and he the main character

in Nightmare Alley is named Stanton uh huh and he saw some sort of connection between him and the main character sure and he the main character in Nightmare Alley is named Stan and he saw some sort of connection between him and the main character and he even had a framed poster of Nightmare Alley in his house. He named his daughter Xena who Adam Parfrae dated he named her Xena

after the character in Nightmare Alley and also once a year he would have friends over and he had an early, you know, like a reel-to-reel actual film version

of Nightmare Alley. Film projector, yeah. A film projector. He'd play it at a party every once in a while on his birthday. Yeah, wow. Nightmare Alley.

The original, yeah. So this is someone who clearly recognized that he was a con artist and knew that. Sure, right. You know, unlike Hubbard.

You know, I mean, I don't know. I don't know if LeVay ever really believed his own bullshit. No, I think LeVay was, like, interested in surrounding himself with other hedonists and to make it popular. He wanted the attention of sort of, like, oh, it is some version of do what thou wilt. In a way, yes. Yeah. Yeah. But I think he was just a guy that wanted to party.

Sure. Sure. Absolutely. And he liked partying with Hollywood people and Satan was sexy, man. And like Sammy Davis Jr. Exactly. Have you ever seen on YouTube, you can see the pilot episode of a sitcom that Sammy Davis Jr. was going to do in the 70s where he plays Satan. Oh, that's great. I've got to watch that.

So, Aquino. Okay, so Aquino, he sees through that LeVay's just a con man. So, he starts his own thing called Temple of Set. Yeah. And he's also a psychological warfare officer in the military. He had a severe widow's peak. Yeah. He had a wife named Lilith.

He looked kind of like an overgrown... Lilith. The destroyer's peak. Yeah. He had a wife named Lilith. Uh-huh. He looked kind of like an overgrown. Yeah. The destroyer. Yes. Okay, go ahead. He looked like an overgrown Eddie Munster. Uh-huh. And he was given the task by his boss, Paul Vallelay, in the 70s of writing.

Vallelay wanted. What was Vallelay's job? Vallelay was the head of the PSYOP. In the military. In the military. Okay. And he said, post-Vietnam, we need a paper to show us what direction can we go in from here. Yeah.

What type of, how does PSYOP evolve? Post-Vietnam, where do we go from here? And I think you're the guy to be able to figure this out. So Aquino writes this paper called Mind War. Yeah. And in the paper, he says, in this out. So Aquino writes this paper called Mind War. Yeah. And in the paper, he says, in this new electronic digital age that we're entering into. Yeah. You have to create a form of propaganda where the target is not aware.

They think that all of the ideas that they're having are their own ideas. So you have to create a rapport with the target that almost works at an ESP level where the target absorbs the propaganda in such a way where they think that they're generating it on their own and that what they do is their own choice, not something that they're being manipulated by doing. Okay, okay.

And so now what's interesting is in the Out of Shadows documentary, they mentioned mind-worn Aquino to show that you see there is Satanist in the military. Oh, so he's a bad guy in that. He's a bad guy. And Aquino is, you know, during the satanic panic, he gets wrapped up in an investigation. He was accused of running a child trafficking ring out of the Presidio. Because of the set, the house of set.

Because of the temple set. Temple of set. But not because of writing this thing. No, no. Because of the temple set. Temple is set. Because he's, you know, he has this. But not because of writing this thing. No, no,

that has nothing to do with it. The mind war thing has nothing to do with it. And he appears on an episode of Oprah Winfrey during the satanic panic and he's trying to defend himself and eventually he's cleared

of any charges of running a child trafficking ring. So. But that's that long ago that child trafficking is, you know, a trope. Well, yes, it's, I mean, that's huge in the that child trafficking is a trope. Well, yes.

I mean, that's huge in the 80s. And then it's now resurrected in 2017. So what's odd about the documentary is they never mention the fact. They talk about mind war in this documentary. And they say, you see, this is the plan. This is the satanic plan to control your mind. They never mention the fact. And they show the cover letter of the title page. It says, Mind War by Paul Vallely and Michael Aquino.

They never mentioned the fact that Paul Vallely is the one military figure who has come out and said, Q is a real person. All the information that Q is giving you is real. Donald Trump does not trust the CIA, the DIA, the FBI. So he's relying on a group of retired and those intelligence agents who are helping Trump. And so the QAnon community just went wild. Like this is the first official- And that's Vallely? That's Vallely. He put on all these radio shows saying this. And that's Aquino's boss, old boss.

Aquino's old boss. And he's very highly respected, decorated. The psyops guy. The psyops guy, right. And then when you see that and then you read Mind War, you suddenly realize that all the QAnon posts fit exactly the description of where PSYOPs should go in the Mind War. And this happened before like it blew up, Vallely's statement. Vallely comes and starts making public statements about QAnon probably about a year into QAnon. So he sees that this is the ticket.

Yeah. And that's why your assumption is they picked up on it. They either picked up on it or they started it. How do you think that? Well, I mean, you could just go on 4chan and start posting as Q and that's how you start it, you know. Oh, so you're saying that he laid the groundwork and then came out and said, this is legit. He could have had two or three people doing it. Exactly.

You can tell, you know, I'm a creative writing teacher. I look at literature all the time. I can see writing styles. Like I could tell immediately it wasn't just one person. What about that guy and his dad? Well, yeah. I mean, those two guys are probably involved. I doubt that they did that entirely on their own.

No, but clearly the father is ideologically in line. And I would think that they would probably be paid. What are their names? Watkins, Ron Watkins and Jim Watkins. But who do you think that, you know, that Vallely was currently working for? Well, you have Michael Flynn, who is a PSYOP officer himself. I mean, that's his background. Right.

And now Michael Flynn's going around. He formed this thing called the Rear Rake in America Tour. Are you familiar with this? Yes. With a guy named Clay Clark, who's this really evangelical. It looks like a clown show. It's a clown show, but it's hugely influential. I mean, they're getting people.

They're usually at churches. It's from San Diego to Florida, across the country. So they have a pretty large bunch of people whose brains they have broken and are now on board. And Michael Flynn has given lectures at the Rear Reagan America Tour saying, this was a few years, it just is not long ago, he said, what we need to do is

we need to target the school boards. That's our next step. Target the school boards. To what end? To, you know, kick out the Illuminati reptilian bastards. We'll use the school boards. Well, that's what they're doing. But it's in the name of Christian moralism, right?

In Florida. Florida, Texas. And, you know, Ron DeSantis, he has QAnon people he's working with. There's one woman who's the head of some – it's like the mothers against everything. So this is it. This is the origin myth of modern American fascism. Yeah. Christian fascism.

Yes. That's what – I was calling it that a while back, and I've always felt that, that whether like, but I tend to, you, you know, you did the homework, but I tended to detach from that and just say, like, I don't care where it came from. It is what it is. Well, absolutely. I mean, in a way, you know, that HBO documentary about QAnon? Yeah, I saw that. The whole question was who is Q? Yeah.

I wasn't particularly interested in who is Q. Not at this point. I'm more interested in why is this more successful than all the other conspiracy theories that have flourished on the Internet since the year 2000 or late 90s? Because you've got you've got people within the government that are that realize either they it wants and doing what it needs to do in order to take over the government of this country. They're not hiding it. And QAnon, if they want to use that tool to sort of mobilize that constituency, they do. I think that's the ultimate irony here is like the whole metaphor of the deep state. Because deep state implies – it's kind of ironic.

There's something almost Gnostic about it. No, when Trump got in, I was like, well, that doesn't exist. Why aren't they taking him out? Yeah, well, he's saying now, if you reelect me, then I'll go in, I'll take care of the deep state. Why didn't you do it in the four years that you were in? Also, by the way, there are some of the QAnon people who say that Trump still is president now. Yes. So how can he run a third term by their own logic?

They don't care. You see these people and they are literally like on drugs. They're saying things that they have no support for. Altered consciousness. Exactly. Like they are cult. They're saying things that they have no support for. Altered consciousness. Exactly. Like they are cult members who are saying things. And when pressed a little bit, they're like, I don't know. It's just I have a feeling.

Yes. Yes. They'll say, well, in fact, I saw Jordan Klepper asking one of these guys. He said, wait a minute. You're saying that Trump is in charge of the military right now? He goes, yes, secretly he is. He goes, okay, so he's to blame for Afghanistan? Oh, no.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it's like one step away that they operate on this surface level. And I guess the only interactions they have are with like-minded people or people who are equally as shallow and duped by or brainwashed. I think that also what happened,

it's not just the Q post. Yes. This whole idea of creating a rapport with the target, getting them to think that they made the choice themselves. I've suspected early on, I mentioned in the book that it would be impossible to monitor every single Q-Tuber in existence. So I was focusing on this Rick Rene show, and he had this guy named Gene, this anonymous guest, Gene, who claimed he had military contacts. And he would repeat everything that this military contact had told him to say. Right. So about the deep underground military bases and all this.

And I remember thinking at first, is he making this stuff up or is someone actually telling him this stuff and he's repeating it? Yeah. Eventually, around about January 3rd, so it was like three days before January 6th, Gene goes on the air. And I heard other QTubers say this as well, a woman named Kirsten Weldon, who's now dead. She died of COVID. On January 6th, 2022, she died of COVID. Kirsten Weldon, this guy Gene, other QAnon people were saying, they actually went on the air and said, listen, three days from now, on January 6th, if you see tanks coming down the street and Trump declares martial law, don't go for your guns.

Don't go for your guns. That has to happen. That's the plan. Trust the plan. And martial law is the tool that Trump is going to use to route out all the demonic Satanists. So don't go for your guns. the demonic Satanists. So don't go for your guns. So they managed to take these libertarians who all the way back in the early 90s had been paranoid

about imminent martial law. Right. There was this book called Operation Vampire Killer 2000 by Police Against the New World Order. And it was this saddle-stitched book

that you could order. I ordered away for it. Yeah. Because the title, Operation Vampire Killer 2000, that sounds great. And it was by these ex-police officers headed by this guy named Jack McClam. And they didn't like Bush. They were libertarians and they were concerned about the militarization of the police. And when I read it at the time, I thought, this is interesting. This would create

like a bridge between these kind of far- right libertarians and progressives who are also concerned about the militarization of the police. I mean, this is something that both are concerned with. This could actually create a kind of bridge between these. Oh, interesting. So that was sort of where it happened. And then and then. But, you know, a few years after that, then it gets wrapped up in the Oklahoma City bombing. And any hope of that happening like that was far too optimistic. I thought on my part, you know. Well, I mean, but what has happened is the left and the Oklahoma City bombing and any hope of that happening. Like that was far too optimistic for the thought on my part, you know.

Well, I mean, but what has happened is the left and the right do, like they're certainly the progressive spiritualists, you know, who revolve, who are very anti-vax. Yes. Because that's a gateway drug to QAnon is anti-vaxxers. In fact, at the Reawaken America tour, one of the speakers has been Robert Kennedy. Yeah. Yeah, he's been doing that for a long time.

But like, you know, the yoga instructors, the massage therapists, the crystal gazers, like all sort of got in line with this thing. That's what was so brilliant about QAnon. It figured out how to pull in people who would never enter this evangelical sphere. But yet were either searchers or paranoid, broken people that were incomplete and untethered

from a true foundation of self. And also what you would call like one-issue voters. Sure. Just angry morons. If you're interested in vaccines, like that's your main thing, then you have to— So again, tell me, so Valéry, okay, I understand he's aligned with Flynn, but so their agenda was always fascist America?

I think the QAnon posts were meant to build up to January 6th, that January 6th was like the plan B or Okay, okay. Or the plan Q. If it looks like he's not going to win. A Q coup. Yeah. We're going to initiate plan Q. Because they were like, you know,

if we can just let this motherfucker run roughshod over the government for another four years, we've got it forever. Yeah. I mean, just a few days before January 6th, all 10 secretaries of state, all living secretaries of state published an op-ed piece saying, listen, if you're in the military,

you have to understand you have to accept whoever is president. And I read that and I thought, what was the panic freak out that made them publish this? This has never happened before. I mean, they all got together and said, we need to publish something. It's a coup. Because they know that this was imminent. And I don't think people are aware of how it was just a series of weird synchronicities that prevented that mob

from getting in, kidnapping Pelosi, hanging Mike Pence. For sure, dude. The guy with the handcuffs, there was going to be blood spilled. There's no doubt. That's why when I was watching it,

I thought, the MAGA and QAnon people are the cover. You know, they went there probably not thinking that they were going to be blood spilled. There's no doubt. That's why when I was watching it, I thought the MAGA and QAnon people are the cover. You know, they went there probably not thinking that they were going to be involved in a riot. Oh, so you're saying

that the real activators who were going to do the damage were deep op people. The Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers were most of them who were military people who were ex-police officers.

The guys with the zip ties, the cameras. They believed that they could hijack this thing. Yeah. And so you've got the chaos of the Malaga QAnon people who have been revved up. And in the midst of that chaos, you've got these zip tie guys with the camera mounted on the chest, camo fatigues. What were they going to do with those cameras? What were they going to do with those cameras? You know, were they going to kidnap Pelosi and start executing people, you know, live streaming it?

Yeah. Until, you know, Mike Pence does what Trump wants him to do. I mean, it was only, it was, there was one cop who, the doors to the chambers were open, unlocked. And he actually led them, the crowd away while Pelosi and Pence and Schumer and everyone else fled out the back. Yeah, I saw that. Yeah. And he was the guy going, you know, like that. Yeah, yeah. And the crowd didn't know it was unlocked.

So they go and they chase that guy. Yeah, yeah. It's just that one synchronicity that prevents that from being a bloodbath of a day. So where do we stand now with Q? How's it doing? I just wrote an article called The Silent Civil War that is going to be appearing on Evergreen Review, which kind of updates things from Operation Mindfuck. And the fact that Q popped his head up again one more time when Cassidy Hutchinson was doing her testimony in the January 6th committee, I thought, well, somebody must have gotten really nervous about her because then suddenly Q starts posting again with all these questions. And that goes along the way that the posts are structured where they're all questions. That ties into that

mind war philosophy. Well, that's how they answer questions, with questions. With questions. And then that way you're reading the question and you think you're answering it and coming to the conclusion yourself. Sure. When in fact, there's only one conclusion based on all the questions. Well, we have to support Trump. That's the only conclusion you can come to. But you think you've reached it yourself. Or you think it's your idea to storm the Capitol.

Yeah. And when in fact, Trump was the one who told you to go do it. Yeah. You know? Or a lot of these Qtubers, there's one woman named Radix. Yeah. Radix Verum. That's her, youix. Yeah. Radix Verum. That's her,

you know, name. And she started a YouTube channel called Patriot Soapbox. Yeah. One of the early proponents of QAnon. And I've heard her

in an interview say how at the beginning, Jerome Corsi, who's one of these major, he writes for World Net Daily. He's the one who came up with the whole birther thing, the Obama birther thing. Okay. Jerome Corsi suddenly appears's one of these major, he writes for World Net Daily. He's the one who came up with the whole birther thing, the Obama birther thing. Jerome Corsi suddenly appears on the subreddit, the QAnon subreddit for Patriot Soapbox. Yeah.

And is commenting. And she's like, oh, I know Jerome Corsi. He's on Alex Jones. Yeah, yeah. And Jerome Corsi is suddenly offering to take part in this YouTube channel that started by these two random people. And they're really impressed. And they're posting the Q post

and talking about it and Jerome Corsi tells them, I know that this information is correct. You know, keep doing it. I'm going to help you.

So he's one of the elders. I think so. He was, she has said, at the time, I was really naive and I was really impressed that this guy was on Alex Jones

and was telling us that we were on the right track and now, looking back on it, she goes, I was really naive and I was really impressed that this guy was on Alex Jones and was telling us that we were on the right track. And now looking back on it, she goes, I think he inserted himself to amplify the QAnon thing and to direct this. So she had to come to Jesus moment? She did, yes. She realized that she had been taken. Wow. She'd been had.

So do you think it's leveling off, stronger, weaker right now? I think it's leveling off, stronger, weaker right now? I think it's stronger. I think it's – now the situation is there are a lot of QAnon people who basically they just – they don't mention Q. Sure. Like, for example, have you ever watched Newsmax? No. It can be amusing and frightening at the same time. Yeah.

I got enough of that just in my own mind, the amusing and frightening at the same time. Yeah. I got enough of that just in my own mind. The amusing and frightening. I don't need to validate it all the time. There's a show called Greg Kelly Reports. Greg Kelly used to be on Fox. Now he's on Newsmax. Okay. And basically the whole thing is a QAnon adjacent show.

Yeah. He never mentions Q. But, for example, when the guy attacked Nancy Pelosi's husband, there's this QAnon theory that he was actually a male prostitute. And that's just – Right. And he didn't break – And that picked up – that got picked up in the mainstream press? Immediately.

Immediately. It's so fucked up like that. So you're telling me that now QAnon has become a secret society within the conservative – In a way, yes. Within whatever the fuck – Yeah, because if you watch like Newsmax, they do QAnon reports become a secret society within the conservative. In a way, yes. Within whatever the fuck. Yeah, because if you watch Newsmax, they do QAnon reports all the time. So it's a secret society within the new Christian fascist movement in America. But it's definitely, you know, they are in it for the long haul.

Yeah. Even Marjorie Taylor Greene did an interview recently where she said, oh, I was never really into Q. And they read that as, you know, she is. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Well, good. Not optimistic.

No. But we did a thorough job here. I think we covered it. I was very excited to have the conversation, and I'm satisfied. And I like the book. Like, it didn't spin me out. You know, I did. Oh, that's good.

I'm grown up enough to contextualize conspiracy theories. Right. You didn't start analyzing the buildings. Not again. Okay. That didn't come back. So I'm happy about that. Thank you for talking.

Well, I hope you kept up with that. I hope it was understandable enough. Operation Mindfuck, QAnon, and the cult of Donald Trump is available now. Hang out a minute, folks. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer.

I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. Discover the timeless elegance of cozy where furniture meets innovation. Designed in Canada, the Sofa Collections are not just elegant, they're modular, designed to adapt and evolve with your life. Reconfigure them anytime for a fresh look or a new space. Experience the cozy difference with furniture that grows with you,

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and then I talked with Andrew Marantz from The New Yorker about online fascism and conspiracy communities. The underlying systemic forces of how social media works, what it's incentivizing people to do, the kinds of feedback loops it's drawing people into, the system is still working exactly as designed. So a couple of the individual- As designed? Yes. As designed by who and for what what reason as designed by the social media company so the reason that i call my book anti-social is because the word anti-social applies to the creeps and propagandists and disinformation agents who i hang out with and i would sit at

their side and watch them destroy america and i would kind of call them and say hey you are doing this thing from your laptop in orange county, California or in Michigan or in wherever. Can I come sit in your kitchen and watch you destroy America? And they'd say, yeah, sure. And so I would do that. They were the kind of antisocial ones. But it's also antisocial in the sense of, hey, guys, social media is doing this to us in a very concerted way. So the design of social media, the intention was not to destroy America, but you're saying that fundamental to the design of it, the way these loops create by

amassing followers around ideology and then by other people sort of entering it through random tweets or reactions, that the design of it, which was idealistically to bring people together, it's doing that, but in the most malignant way. Correct. So it's bringing people into these forms of community. And it's also doing at the most basic level what the algorithms are designed to do, which is just to maximize and monetize attention. They're just trying to suck in your attention, get you to stay on the platform for as long as possible. And often it's not even the human beings, but it's the algorithms who are figuring out that if you want to get someone to stay on your platform for eight or

10 hours a day, actually the best way to do that is to radicalize them to some kind of new cult ideology that they will then sit in their bunker and explore and do all this research. Again, that's episode 1155, Bad Internet, and you can listen for free in whatever app you're using okay here's some drone for you Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Boomer lives. Monkey and Lafonda. Cat angels everywhere.