WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1451 - Lukas Nelson

Episode Date: July 10, 2023

Lukas Nelson doesn’t fear any comparisons with his father, Willie, because his dad taught him by example to do what you love with all your heart. And Lukas loves making music. Lukas talks with Marc about songwriting, the evolution of country, Jimi Hendrix, Neil Young, Gordon Lightfoot, Kris Kristofferson, hip hop, his new album, and the fortunate set of circumstances that led him to work on the film A Star is Born and write songs for its best-selling soundtrack. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

It's hockey season, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So, no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice? Yes, we deliver those. Gold tenders, no. But chicken tenders, yes. Because those are groceries, and we deliver those, too.

Along with your favorite restaurant food, alcohol, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+.

We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global bestselling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life when i die here you'll never leave japan alive fx's shogun a new original series streaming february 27th exclusively on disney plus 18 plus subscription required t's and c's apply All right, let's do this. How are you? What the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fucksters? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast WTF. Welcome to it. I'm going to continue to sort of pay some attention, some audio attention,

some aural attention to the farmers. How are my farmers out there? How are my people in the fields? As some of you may know, if you listened to the last episode, I got an email from a person that listens to my podcast while they're out there in the fields. So I just want to be inclusive. I want to make sure the farmers feel part of what we're doing here. How's it going there with the soil? What's happening with the heat? Is there flooding? Did you get that equipment fixed?

How are you? Do you need new shoes? Are you dressed properly? How hot is it out there? Just make sure you hydrate while you're working on the crops. I just really want them to feel welcome. It's important that everybody, no matter what you're doing, when you're listening to this, that you feel like you're part of it. I'm not pandering here because I don't know your life. I don't know what you're doing. I know some people in their car, some people are at the

gym, some people are in their kitchen, Some people are doing their sketches. Some people are working on other things, perhaps a master's thesis. I don't know, but I know that it's a very eclectic and diverse and multi-aged bunch of people. Today on the show, this is actually pretty great. You know, I went and saw the second night of Willie Nelson's 90th birthday concert. And, you know, look, I knew about Lucas Nelson. I knew about, you know, his work with Neil Young that he toured with them. I knew that he was a musician in his own right and a very respected one. I'd started hearing about him a few years ago.

But I was like really, I'm very interested and excited to talk to the offspring or the legacy of mythic talents. And I have in the past, just to see if their struggle is similar, is just as human as anybody else's, but also his music is great. And I didn't realize until I talked to him, I should have known, but maybe I kind of knew, but he wrote a lot of music for A Star Is Born. And he's got a new album coming out with his band, Lucas Nilsson and The Promise of the Real. It's called Sticks and Stones. It's a great record. It's really a great record. My process for musicians is kind of interesting, but I loved seeing him at the birthday concert because he was there with his brother and Willie's friends. And it's just this familial kind of unity of what I think is country music because I had the discussion with him because I was thinking about it before I had him on here because I've talked to, well, let's see, who have I talked to?

I've talked to Sean Lennon. I've talked to Jacob Dillon. I've talked to Duncan Jones, who's David Bowie's son, who is not a musician. I don't know if it's a weight to it, but there is an acknowledgement of the fact that when you are the child of somebody who is mythic in their presence in culture and the arts, I imagine there's pressure, but there thinking about Jacob and that, you know, he's the son of Bob Dylan and he chooses to go into music. And you would think like, well, that's a hell of a choice to make. It's a bold choice. And he carved a place out for himself, but I imagine there's a certain amount of pressure there, you know, and the same with Sean, with Sean Lennon, you know, he sounds like John Lennon, but, you know, he's also, you know, done his own thing, but there must be

some sort of weight to it. And those guys are, I don't know what you, Dylan is Dylan, Lennon is the Beatles and Lennon is Lennon, but, you know, Willie Nelson, if you think about it now that he's 90, is really was at the beginning of, you know, what we would call modern country. He has been in country music for a long time, decades. He wrote songs for Patsy Cline. And then I started thinking about country music and the nature of country music and how it sort of works. And the very heart, like, look, I'm always learning. I'm trying to constantly learn.

And then after I learn, I'm trying to remember. That's the trickiest thing is taking the thing in sort of like, I'm going to learn and then I'm going to remember. But I watched Ken Burns' Country Doc, all the episodes. And the core of modern country, it seems, was the Carter family, Bill Monroe, was the Carter family, Bill Monroe, Jimmy Rogers, and then it kind of went from there. But the idea that the Carter family, I mean, there's at least three or four generations of Cashes and Carters that are still doing music.

And it dawned on me that country music is different in how it, Hank Williams, another one, Hank Williams Jr., Hank Williams III, it dawned on me that country music is sort of different in how it, Hank Williams, another one, Hank Williams Jr., Hank Williams III, it dawned on me that country music is sort of different in the expectations of legacy, of judging. You know, it must be hard to sort of like be Sean, you know, coming up and being like, well, what's he going to do? He's John Lennon's kid or Jacob. Jesus, his dad's Dylan. How's he going to find a place for himself? But I think that with country music, it's almost part of the tradition that the family will continue on and play together

and work together. And I would imagine that the fans of country are like, great, another Nelson, great, another Cash. I mean, they know who the parents are, but there is a continuity to it. And it's not, the judgment is different. It feels like it's almost part of the tradition. And I talked to Lucas about that. And we actually, I never know what to expect when I come out here. And the way I work with musicians, because I've learned over time that musicians don't really need to talk. You know, the music speaks for itself. So we don't talk to a ton of musicians, a good many though. But I listened to, you know, his discography is, is, is reasonable. I mean, it's like, it's manageable. He's a young guy.

So I was able to sort of like, you know, re-engage or engage for the first time with his music from the, from the beginning to where he is now and kind of like take it in. And I'll do it the week before or the days before that I talk to a musician. So it's all fresh in my head and I listened to the new record and it's really good. And he does sound a bit like his dad and his songwriting is similar. I don't know if it's similar, but Willie Nelson, one of the greatest songwriters ever, wrote some of the great songs. And Willie Nelson's got at least 900 records out.

So what I usually do is I try to sort of figure out how they fit in, who they are as musicians, and I just load my head up with their music and then just see what happens. Like I'm not going into this with much other than I saw the guy at the 90th birthday party. I was familiar with him, but I didn't know his work that well. And I knew he was Willie Nelson's kid. And that's what I had going in. I didn't have any questions. I don't really do questions. And then I just

listened to the music and had the experience I'm going to have with the music and opened myself up to it. And that's my starting point. And I got to be honest with you. It was just a, I've never, I don't think I've ever used this word before. It was a terrific. It feels weird coming out. What a terrific conversation. I don't think I ever used the word terrific.

I know many of you, you know, catch on trajectories. I don't think I ever used the word terrific. I know many of you catch on. Trajectories, I use. Manifest, I use. Yeah, there are words that some of you notice, and you could certainly play a drinking game with some of the words that I seem to latch on to and use. But I generally use them correctly. Some people got hung up with my pronunciation of the Illuminati as opposed to Illuminati. But, you know, look, sometimes I stylize. What can I tell you? But this was a terrific conversation and it was a real pleasure

to talk to this guy. He's a well-adjusted dude who is putting the work in and knows the work at hand and the work is important to him. And it was really a pleasure to talk to Lucas. So that's what's happening today. So I've been thinking about stuff and now you're also going to find, and I don't know what to tell you. It's just the way it's going to be. I've been playing music. I've been singing. I've been trying to figure out how to play with others on stage and play and sing at the same time and not choke on my leads on the guitar. So I'm finding now that I think this is one of the first musicians who I felt comfortable enough to sort of talk to about the process. musicians who I felt comfortable enough to sort of talk to about the process. And not unlike I did with many actors who I respect, I will talk about acting. I'm looking for some tools, people. I'm looking for tools. I'm looking for tools on, you know, on how to maintain a certain amount of

confidence and courage in my fledgling musical career. Obviously, I'm not going to have a musical career, but I would like to feel good about something. I would like to feel like I'm having a good time. And I know some of you realize that that's kind of a theme right now with me. And I don't know. It's weird, man. I have a lot of energy in terms of like engaging with stuff. And I talk to these people like Lucas and they're, you know, they're writing songs, they're doing the work, they're recording songs, they're practicing. And I think about what I do and what I've done my entire life. And in terms of day to day, you know, where's all my creative energy going? Where is it going? It's, it's sometimes it's obsessive and it's not necessarily creative and I justify it as being creative. Well,

I have to live a life in order to, to sort of talk about a life. Cause that's what I do. I talk about things, but you know, I get obsessed with shit and it's ridiculous. I've really got to figure out how to, you know, somehow manage to stay in the present and stop just sort of worrying and obsessing about fucking everything. Look, I just recently, I decided finally after living in my new house here, it's not even new anymore, to, you know, that I really could not stand looking at the beds, the flower beds in front of my house. There was just like this ragtag bunch of succulents that weren't growing while it was ugly. And I had, you know, I had emptied those beds when I bought the place to, to, to sort of seal up the walls beneath the bed that were possibly leaking into the crawl space downstairs. And I just threw some stuff

in there and I've waited like, what is it? Four or five years to see if they kind of manifest into something attractive, which they never did. So every day I would walk into my house. This is for years, for years. And just be like, fuck man, this is ugly. And there were plants that the woman who owned the house before me had planted in these pots and I have all her pots. And those things were looking, you know, just Brown and crispy and unattractive. And they were too big for their pots and the roots were strangling. And yet for years, I walked past this stuff into my house, literally like, fuck. You have that's like, it annoyed me. And I spent at least four or five years obsessed with the idea that these were, it was just sort of like ugly.

And I don't know why in my brain, I didn't find the simplicity of choice to say like, dude, fucking get rid of them. They're plants. They're just, you want to make, you want to put new plants in for fuck's sake, put some new plants in. Years of, of just sort of like, and I realized I do that with a lot of things that, you know, I don't know. There's some part of me that must enjoy the as much as if not more, uh, than the like, Ooh, I'm, I'm a guy, I guess. And I'd like to move more into being a, Oh, that's nice guy. Why not? It's a simple fix. It's not even expensive. So I had the guy, the gardener guy, he put in some flowers,

took out the old fucking crispies and the fucking ugly nothings that I had the guy, the gardener guy, he put in some flowers, took out the old fucking crispies and the fucking ugly nothings that I had in the front vents. Well, I told you about the lavender, put some lavender plants in, not expensive, easy in a nice orderly way to maybe have a future of bushy lavender plants. And now I put some bougainvilleas in the pots and some other pretty flowers. And now like for the last couple of weeks, I'm walking in going like, Hey, look at the flowers. I'm walking through flowers here at the end of the world. I'm walking into my house through flowers and it's so nice. But now because we switched the pots, you know, the, you know, you replant these plants and it's been very hot here.

The bougainvillas are not like, they're not quite taking one of them looks a little crispy, but it looks like it might make it. So now I'm fairly thoroughly obsessed with the idea that this bougainvillea, that the one that I put in there is having a hard time, right? It's not going to make it. And so now, you know, I'm focusing in on like, oh, but what's the matter with this one? How long is that going to go on for? And again, it's just a plant. I don't have to be totally empathetic to a plant. If that bougainvillea doesn't fucking work out, I can try another one. But no, like I'm locked into this one survival and I'm obsessing about it. And that's where my fucking creative energy is going.

What is that? It's fucking ridiculous. But look, there's always time for change, right? Isn't there? So Lucas Nelson is here and I very much enjoy talking to him. The new album from Lucas Nelson and the promise of the real sticks and stones comes out this Friday, July 14th. And this is me and Lucas hammering it out. And we deliver that too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, groceries, and other everyday essentials.

Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die.

We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave

Japan alive. FX's Shogun. A new original series streaming February 27th exclusively on Disney+. 18 plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. The one thing that I think bands generally have a problem with is when they start talking in between songs, people are like, where's this going to go?

Yeah, and it's an art form to be able to have good banter. I saw Neil Young last night. I went and just... Over at the little... At the Ford, yeah. Oh, he did another night there? He did four nights there, and I just didn't even know he was playing. I just got into town, and yeah, it was great.

What, do you text him and go, what's up? Well... Because you played with him for a while. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it was... No, it was my agent, Brian Greenbaum. He said, hey, Neil's playing. You want to be my plus one?

Yeah. And I said, well, sure. And so I went down there and we sat and we watched him and he played great. I love seeing him solo. Yeah. But his banter on stage was great. He was walking around and making jokes and he just seemed like he was in a good spirit. And I think depending on the type of show,

there's a balance between talking too much and giving your whole life story, and then you got to like, you know, then I get annoyed if I'm watching a show. Well, I mean, now there's this whole trend with some of these older guys, you know, who still want to get out there and do the like, you know, Springsteen. Springsteen is a good example. And I think the whole idea of the one person show was brought about by him doing the book tour.

Like he wrote that book and I went out to his house to interview him. And it was kind of interesting because, you know, he's one of those guys whose public facing personality is sort of, Hey man, me and the guys are going to hang out and we're going to, but, you know, you know, him in real life, he's like dark, you know, hard on himself. And I think he found some middle zone where he realized that he could tell personal stories and he could be vulnerable. Yeah. And that show was incredibly successful. But that is more in line with what you're talking about. Like there's a full spectrum entertainer there. Yeah, for sure.

Where like, you know, I'm going to talk a little bit and I'm going to do it. And people expected that. They wanted it. Yeah, I think it's cool depending on, honestly, the personality. Sure. I mean, sometimes, you know, there's certain levels of conceit that I can see in some people where they just, you think I care about what you're talking about right now? No, I don't care. Nobody cares.

Shut up and play the guitar. Yeah, but at the same time, there's a great sort of two or three line banter. Yeah. Between songs. Yeah, jokes. It's like jokes. you can say it take yeah you just say if you want a little one-liner it's like neil i think at one point he's like uh oh yeah all these instruments are for sale at the end of the show i gotta laugh at that because he was i think he's

happier and like you can sort of tell like i don't know i interviewed him years ago and it was Like, you can sort of tell, like, I don't know. I interviewed him years ago, and it was, started off kind of dicey, but then I got him loose, and he was good. You know, but I think, like, he strikes me as somebody who is fundamentally happier than he's ever been in his life. You know, I'm not exactly sure why. I mean, it must have something to do with having enough of a stash of old recordings to release an album, like, twice a year, and then still be doing new stuff. But I think he's got a new relationship. I don't know. It's just something lit him up in the last few years.

Yeah, I think you're right. Yeah. You can definitely feel it. And, well, all of us, all musicians, I think, are a little giddy to be getting back out again. Oh, after COVID. Yeah, I guess that's true. But speak to the thing also. Like, I remember a joke Gordon Lightfoot told on stage

when I saw them with my parents. Gordon was one of the records I picked this morning. Really? Which one? The one with Edmund Fitzgerald on it. Oh, yeah. I can't remember what it was called exactly. But yeah, it was the only one they had, actually.

It was one of the records. I was talking about that song with my girlfriend, about how it's insane that that song was such a huge hit. It's like a 20-minute folk ballad. It's an epic folk ballad, yeah. I got to hang with Gordon one time, I met him, and I was doing Stagecoach. He was doing Stagecoach, and we played right before him.

What's Stagecoach? Stagecoach is the country version of Coachella. Oh, okay, okay. So it's out in Indio. Yeah. And he played right after in, you know, Indio. Yeah. And he played right after us, and he was so sweet. He brought me back after our set, and he was really into, like,

kind of the psychedelic stuff we'd been doing, mixing the country with the psychedelic. And, you know, he's a 60s guy, obviously. Sure, man, yeah. So, you know, and it was so cool., obviously. So, you know, it was so cool. He was so humble. And you could sense a gravitas just in terms of his vision. Yeah, never, like, definitely, he's like your old man.

I mean, never stop. He's always on the road. Yeah. And, you know, and he, like, I remember the joke, though. He was talking about how, because it's such a well-timed joke. He said, I come from a big family. I have a lot of brothers and sisters because my mother was hard of hearing.

And he says, my father would say, so you want to go to sleep or what? And my mother would go, what? Like, I remember the fucking joke. That's good. Yeah. I must have been like in seventh grade or something, but I remember that. But he's an amazing example of this type of songwriter where I don't know his full catalog,

but if he had only written If You Could Read My Mind, you'd be like, that would have been enough in a way. There are some guys that write songs where you're like, where the fuck did that come from? Yeah. Your dad does it. Oh, yeah. You do it. Thank you. Yeah.

That's very kind of you to say. But I sense that songwriting comes from reading. It comes from listening to other songwriters. Yeah. But I think you really have to be uh someone who loves the english language yeah you don't have to love it in terms of be well versed in it necessarily but you gotta love you gotta love putting words together in a in a i like my personal preference is the less is more approach yeah where dad is very you know country music, short story, clever twist, you know, where,

you know, Hello Walls is a great example. Yeah. You know. Well, that's the other thing about country music in terms of what we were talking about before is they do tell stories. Yes, but in a very quick and clever way. Yeah. You know, like there's something, you know, there's something mic drop-esque

about saying that one line that just ties it all together. And that's a theme? Yeah. You think? Oh, yeah. In country music, in some rock and roll music,

not in all of it. Yeah. You know, I mean, some choruses are just mic drop lines in themselves, you know. Well, I listen to, like I tried to play the other night because I've been playing with some guys. I finally did that later in my life.

After playing guitar my whole life, I'm like, well, I should play with people. Yeah. So I've been doing it, and it's very scary to me still. Good. That's great. Yeah, it's okay. I'm pretty hard on myself. I'm not having a great time because, you know, I still.

You're taking the wrong drugs then, I think. Yeah, well, I'm not taking any. Oh, well, that helps. I got to get back on the drugs. No, I'm just kidding. But no, because like there's something about, you know, just logging the hours. Yeah. About getting comfortable because the sound changes when you're in a room, you know,

and, you know, you get used to the guys you're playing with. That sort of happened. But I still get a little uptight, you know, trying to remember the words because I'm not inherently a guy that practices with guys all the time. And I choke up a little bit on the guitar because I know I can play, but somehow when I'm playing live with the dudes, I'm like, why, why can't I just, you know, take it easy? Do you rehearse? We rehearse, but not enough. Like, they're all professional the dudes, I'm like, why? Why can't I just take it easy? Do you rehearse?

We rehearse, but not enough. They're all professional musicians, so they're like, we're doing covers mostly, almost all covers, and we'll do a couple of rehearsals before the gig, and they'll be like,

let's not over-rehearse it. I'm like, I don't play with people. Where do you guys rehearse? Where do you play? Where do you play? Largo. Is that a club? Largo is a, yeah, it's a theater.

It's a small theater that they run music over there. And you do covers and you just have a good time. Yeah, we try to, but I take it, and singing is a lot for me, but I think if the more, like I noticed this last time that we locked in pretty good on a couple of tunes and I only fucked up one

and I was more confident singing. So it's changing. You know what the great thing about singing is? Yeah. And the great thing about what you're saying is if you know you sound bad, you're ahead of the game. And I'm telling you, this is the truth.

If you can tell, if you listen to a recording of yourself and you're like, oh my God, I'm out here, I'm out there, oh my God, I hate that. Wow, I'm out here. I'm out there. That's flat. That's sharp. If you can tell and sense, then you're 90% there.

Yeah. And the rest is just training your throat to match your ear. Yeah. And the rest is just training it. Because if you've got the ear to tell what sounds good, some people don't have that, and they're screwed. Really? Well, because if you think you sound good and you don't, you're screwed. Yeah.

Because there's no reference. Right. But so much of it comes from doing it. Yeah. Like, what I was going to say, speaking to, you know, clever turns and country songs. Yeah. Like, I decided for whatever reason to try to do a cover of He Stopped Loving Her Today. Yes.

What a great song. Oh my God. Like that song makes me cry every time. The turn in that song is crazy. And it's, that is actually, I think, 60% melody. Yeah. Well, that's the other thing, trying to sing that thing. And, you know, only George can really sing it.

I don't even know If there's that many covers Of the thing The delivery And the melody Of that song Are what I think Gives it its gravitas

Right Because there's Those subtle shifts You know From the one to the four Right And like you know And then he goes

Stop loving her today Yeah Well I mean It's just like Oh you just feel that Yeah You know you just say He stopped loving her today You don i mean it's like oh you just feel that yeah you know you just say he stopped loving her today you don't feel it but when you bring it down you bring it he stopped loving her today yeah oh my god yeah like and it just settles and then it starts and then the band comes in and

it's oh man the strings and the yeah you know we didn't have any of that but i we chose to just like almost do i just did a little bit of that, but we chose to just like almost do, I just did a little bit of guitar, and then we don't come in with the other guitar, the second verse, and then I'm playing through this old deluxe with that, while I was using a Les Paul humbucker. You got a nice old deluxe, but ooh, look at that. Before they were bigger.

That's like a 53. Okay, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, those sound good though. Is that a Les Paul there? Yeah, it's a junior. That's my guitar of choice. Now?

You used to play Stratso, right? I play both, but I have a Les Paul Junior from 56 that I've had for about eight years now that I got, and it's been my baby. So great setup there. That's, you know. Yeah. Well, you don't need anything else. No.

Yeah. No. But the thing was is like, so I got no strings, and I'm just doing like almost like anything you play through, these kind of amps are going to sound kind of like Neil Young. Totally. Well, yeah, absolutely. That's the thing.

He's got seven of them on stage. The funny thing about him is he doesn't know if they're going to make it. Yeah. Like, doesn't he have one guy that's job is only to manage that mess of things that he's got he's got a couple of guys but yeah he's uh it's uh yes uh but but the melody the melody yeah and the clever twist and all that that makes a good song and like another one i i always think about that has a great mic drop type of uh of element to his songs is Tom Petty because, you know, you got lucky when I found you.

Yeah. Good love is hard to find. Good love is when you got lucky, babe, when I found you. Yeah. Mic drop, right? Yeah, yeah. I mean, that is just like. Great.

The whole song could be that. Yeah. And you're like, okay, that's amazing. He wrote like so many, like the catalog of that guy, it's be like, okay, that's amazing. He wrote so many. The catalog of that guy, it's crazy when you look at the whole thing. Yeah. He's an amazing songwriter, but in the sense that he can really, I like his simplicity in his lyrics.

Yeah. I hear a lot of music now where I think it works in hip-hop format, but where there's a lot of lyrics. Yeah, I can't. It's just a lot of, sometimes in newer music I hear, it's just a run-on. I can't follow it. Like, my brain was, I'm more of a riff guy. Yeah.

So the words kind of are secondary for me usually. Like, I like the sound of the music. Yeah, for me, the words aren't secondary. For me, the words are so important that I don't want it to get lost in trying to cram so many words. The only way it works for me is in hip-hop because I think hip-hop is a completely unique art form in rap. For me, the greatest and most creative art that's come from the culture, Western culture recently, is freestyle rap. To be able to come up with intelligent lyrics and mind-blowingly poignant lyrics on the spot like that in a rapid fire.

I mean, that is incredible. So in that format, I like a lot of lyrics together. But as a songwriter, personally, a lot of the new pop is like, and all that is lyrics, right? Yeah. and all that is lyrics yeah right yeah whereas you know the stuff that i love is he stopped loving her you know i mean it's it's it's it's all you got to do is do that one thing and it's just like ah you know and you hear it and and so now i'm i'm as a songwriter i'm trying to incorporate what i love into a fresh new sound and that's you know that's i guess what anyone can always do i i don't i'm actually not you know uh i probably

lose quite a large audience in the sense that i'm not uh an equipment guy yeah i i you know personally i feel like it's mostly in the human. Yeah, I like that, yeah. And I'm just trying my best to be proficient at my instrument. And then what comes secondary is making sure that the conduit for what I'm putting out is quality. Right. But I'm not necessarily looking for the new gizmos and gadgets. Yeah, it's exhausting.

It's a lot. It's a lot to think about. It takes me away from a lot of times. I think that just being able to go up, even just alone acoustic on stage, and capture an audience, if you can't do that, or if I can't do that, I don't feel like I'm quite up to where I'd like to be.

Yeah, and you do it. And I was at the second night of the birthday party over at the Bowl. Yes. Oh, yeah. What a beautiful show that was. It was incredible. First of all, Hollywood Bowwood bowls what an amazing yeah sounding

place it must have been crazy back there you know it every i was struck by uh i was just i just talked to because beck was at the neil show last night and beck was at that show as well um and we he was saying it's one time that I never left sides because they had a screen and monitors, which usually they don't have side stage and it's a bad thing. But were you guys taping it for something? Yeah, it got released in theaters recently. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, that's great.

Yeah. Oh, yeah, that's right. My dad's wife is like the biggest fan of your old man's. It's right. My dad's wife is like the biggest fan of your old man's. It's crazy. She's got like a, literally has like a quilt on her bed made out of Willie t-shirts. Aw, that's sweet. That's really nice. There's a few other country performers in there, but she's a huge fan, yeah.

But the great thing about it was the backstage was everybody was watching everybody else play. And it was like, you know, watching everybody else play and it was like you know you you didn't want to miss one performance and there were 30 something artists and every one of them was there singing doing their best on their own time just that i mean for me it was emotional just because it's it's so cool to see people celebrate dad yeah while he's around yeah it's one thing to have a funeral yeah right you know what i mean and you're gone and nobody right you know you uh you know did he have a good time he had an amazing time and i think it was a shot in the arm for you know hopefully a long time you what I mean? It brings him into a place where he wants to keep going.

He's 90, but he's still going strong and playing a lot. And, you know, and he's an amazing, he's an amazing, inspiring character that, and human that I love. Really human. Yeah. But to speak to your point was like, you know, I'm not a Dave Matthews guy.

It's not based in anything reasonable. But to speak to the point about owning a stage and bringing people in, when he did that song, I don't remember which song he covered, but it was fucking great. He just got out there with that guitar and he like and same with

Rodney. Rodney Kyle. Holy shit. Yeah, he's an amazing song writer. He's really good. Made me cry. I was crying half the time during that goddamn show. It was an emotional show, yeah. Chris Christopherson. That was my favorite part. Wow.

So with Chris and Nora together. Which he's just sort of leading him. But he was on it. Yeah, he was. And to be able to do that. And to me, Chris is up there in my top echelon of musicians and songwriters. Yeah. And also people.

Yeah. Because he's as humble as it gets. Yeah. And cool. Like, he's a guy who's as cool as Harrison Ford, you know, but he's a musician. Yeah. You know what I mean yeah and he's you know he's uh he's like you know everybody looks up to him as a songwriter even bob dylan thinks he's a great

songwriter yeah like he looks you know i mean this is a fascinating and the fact that he was able to to pull himself and steal himself into the moment yeah that was uh look i mean i can go on and on there were 50 artists on that stage i know everything and it went smooth totally and it was like uh i had this this like you were you played with a lot of people on that stage sure but uh there was something like and in terms of generations like and, and I don't know if I read it correctly, but it seemed like when Billy Strings came out there and sat next to your dad and you were on the other side, I think. Didn't the three of you do something? Yeah. Yeah. Not unlike you, but in terms of a more old-timey way, he represents something that he's made new again that was around since the beginning of country, right?

Yeah. And I felt like there was a moment where I sensed that your dad kind of recognized that. Sure. Right? I mean, you know, Billy Strings is an amazing artist. He's brought bluegrass back in a huge way. I mean, he was selling out the Bridgestone Amphitheater in Nashville as a bluegrass act. Right.

And that hasn't happened in a long time. Wild, right? You know, it's nice to be. Well, and bluegrass is big right now. Is it? Yeah, because it's big in a lot of places. But not unlike you and the generation that you represent and also the nature of the music. Like, you know, Billy came up playing Sabbath.

You know, you probably came up playing Hendrix. I mean, there was a different, you know, you came up in this other zone, right? I came up playing, yes, Hendrix was a huge influence to me. Stevie Ray. Yeah. Being from Austin myself. Yeah. You know, Stevie Ray, I resonated with him quite a lot.

Did you see him? No, he died when I was two years old. Really? It's been that long? Yeah, he died in 1990, and I was born in 88. 88? Yeah, so I'm 34. That's crazy.

Now, are you of, like does does your dad have another generation of kids oh yeah yeah i'm yeah oh yes he does yes yes i i have eight siblings yeah uh half you know my brother is a younger brother my younger brother was there with micah micah he played with daniel lenoir yeah yeah yeah thought yeah but uh he's a he's a year year and a half younger than me um so we're pretty close right and that's the only we're the only two my mother and my father yeah and then uh i have like you know five or six other sisters oh yeah sisters i had a brother who passed away yeah a long ago. But yeah, he's been married a few times. Yeah, yeah.

But are any of them in music? Yeah, everybody is in their own way. We all sing and laugh and play together. Paula has a radio show, actually, on Sirius. Paula, my sister. Amy has a great band called Folk Uke. Yeah. They do, oh, man, they have funny, like, they play ukulele and guitar.

Yeah. And they have really sweet harmonies. Uh-huh. These really cute girls. Yeah, yeah. And they play sweet harmonies, but they're all like, Motherfucker got fucked up cause he got in the way. You know, like, really sweet. But speaking of that, though, like, cause I was up because he got in the way.

You know, like really sweet. But speaking of that, though, because I was kind of thinking about, you know, legacy and about, you know, country in general. It seems like this new record and, you know, I might be wrong. And, you know, and obviously you're evolving as a songwriter and you are doing what you're doing, which is integrating, you know, what you came up with and what you, you know, kind of represent as a person. But I think it seems to me that the newest record is the most country record. Oh, yeah, by far. It's also the most fun I've ever had. Really? Playing these songs.

Because my problem was the last record I did was called A Few Stars Apart. Yeah. And I wrote it during the pandemic. record i did was called a few stars apart i wrote it during the pandemic and i'm sitting there writing about really in like a heavy place right just like we're gonna be okay yeah it's all good i hope you know like you know let's let humanity continue i mean there was really a point in time where we were nobody knew yeah now everybody's got their own opinions right this there was a certain point in time where the world stopped right and it was like is it gonna keep going you know so I'm writing a lot of heavy songs and there are a lot of times I was like introspective songwriting songs and and

then when we finally could get back out I had all these songs but I could tell that the audience wanted to just be jubilant and celebrate being back and dance and play. And they didn't want to, you know, half of them didn't want to wear masks. Half of them did, but they wanted to celebrate human connection again. Yeah. Right. And I didn't have, I had to go back into my old repertoire where there were more upbeat stuff I have in order to make that happen for them. I only played two or three songs from A Few Stars Apart. Yeah.

So during that tour, I wrote a lot of upbeat songs that were just fun and sing-alongable and danceable. Yeah. songs that were just fun and sing-alongable and danceable and some poignant songs and some slower, but mostly just, I want to have a good-ass time playing country music and have a party so that when I go out there, we're going to have a good-ass time playing country music and have a party. And that's really what it's all about. Billy Joe Shaver, as a road goes on forever and the party never ends. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that was sort of what Sticks and Stones was. That's Sticks and Stones. Well, it's autobiographical, really, because it starts off in my big party days from when I first started on the road.

And all those songs are party songs from the beginning of that record. Yeah. And then it sort of morphs into where I'm at now, which is a more balanced sort of place. Yeah, I could see that. Because there's two different kind of relationship songs on there. Like, Let's Not Be Close Friends for One Night. What was that song? Let's Pretend We're More Than Friends.

Yeah. Yeah, with Laney Wilson. Yeah. And then you arc into that other one about, like, I'd Be Lying If... Yes, Lying If I Said I Didn't wish that I was lying here with you. Yeah. Yeah, which is, you know, that's when you start realizing, that's when that character starts realizing, oh, well, you know what? Maybe it's better to, maybe some sort of settled life is better.

Sure. And, like, what's interesting to me, though, is also that, because I was thinking about legacy, and I was thinking, because I've talked to Sean Lennon. Yeah. I've talked to Jacob Dillon. Sure. I've talked to Duncan Jones, who's not a musician. I don't know him.

He's David Bowie's son. Oh, cool. Filmmaker. Oh, right on. But what's interesting is that with these legends, one of them, I don't remember who it's, it might have been Duncan, you know, about, you know, the offspring of mythic artists. It's a pretty small club. You know what I mean? In a way.

Sure. But what I was noticing about, like, you know, thinking about Jacob and also thinking about Sean, who you sound a bit like Willie. Sure. And Sean sounds a bit like John. And it just happens. It's genetic. Yeah. But the choice to go into the business with those kind of parents, it must be on some level, there has to be some sort of like, do I really want to do this?

But I think it's less in country because it's actually a tradition in country. Sure, yeah. Like, I mean, the basis of modern country was based on the Carter family. Carter family. And there's like a legacy all the way through. Hank, Hank, one, two, three. Yeah. Yeah.

Like there's not a stigma to it. Like I think like, you know, when Jacob went out there, he's like, oh, my God, what are you going to do? Your dad's Bob Dylan. He did pretty well. Yeah, he wrote good songs. Yeah. But with country music, if you're dug in, there's a continuity to it. I doubt that in the same way people are like, how's that guy going to compare to his dad?

Because you just become part of a tradition in a way. Sure. to his dad because you just become part of a tradition in a way. Sure. I mean, the thing about the comparison is to me and is I'll just stand by it. I love my dad with all my heart as a person. Yeah. And that I think I'm lucky in.

Right. Because a lot of people that I know who grew up in that way have complicated relationships with their families. Not just as a musician, but as a celebrity, whatever. Fame is a weird thing. Sure. But what I was taught by him from what I observed from him is that he followed his heart, followed his dream. He really just put his head down and worked hard his whole life through failure after failure after failure.

So I can't really consider my situation anything but great. And I just have to say, if I want to play music for a living, all I need to do is I can't listen to anyone. If anyone wants to compare me, that's fine. But what my job is, is to focus on the music, focus on making, writing the best songs, focus on performing well, on, like I said, capturing an audience, being an entertainer. I mean, the only thing that I have that gives me a sense of meaning and purpose in life is this thing that I can do pretty well. And I can't waste my time thinking about whether people, how people compare me with anybody, whether it be my dad or anyone else has come along. I have to just be the best I can be

and focus and focus and work hard. And I don't really have time to think about those things. But also, I assume aside from that, which is a great disposition to have in relation to that. It's the only way to do it. Is that you did come up in an environment where your proximity to one of the greatest songwriters of all time is down the hall. Totally. And I think that i got lucky that music

chose me is the way i look right because you could have done anything i could have done anything i don't need this shit i'm gonna go yeah well i could have done many things but but i got lucky that i got the bug because it's something i can do forever yeah it's something that i can get closer to my family with Yeah Something I can relate To my dad with In a deeper level Than I think that If I had chosen any other

I mean I think honestly That's the one reason I chose it And it chose me Is because When I was a kid Yeah He would leave all the time

Yeah And I missed him Yeah And I You know Because he's a kind Compassionate Loving father Yeah It's not like You know, because he's a kind, compassionate, loving father. It's not like, you know, when he's home,

he's, well, you know, my mom would complain he was Disney dad because, you know, it's, you know, and I'm sure a lot of parents have the same situation. What does that mean? He, you know, he wasn't, he wasn't around enough to be the disciplinarian. My mom had to pick that role.

So my dad was just so fun so loving right so affectionate right and wise and and and competent as a as a dad in terms of like you know he set a good example about you know how to treat others and things and i was always able to watch that but yeah well you know it, it's funny because I just, I wanted to be closer to him, and music was my way to connect with him. Did he show you how to play guitar? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, when I was a little young, young kid, the first thing he taught me was a Django Reinhardt song.

That's starting out pretty complicated. Yeah, well, he said, if you can play all these chords, and you can get this down, then you can play anything. Yeah. And so I, you know, this down then you can play anything. Yeah. And so I, you know, I started off with a pretty complicated. Well,

that's one of the things that I don't know that people, you know, think first to appreciate him for but he's like a great guitar player.

He's not, he's a unique guitar player and he's great in a Mozart level way. But he plays jazz guitar. Yes, he plays, Nora Jones, I think his favorite compliment

he's ever got yeah was that um nora jones said that he was like django reinhardt with one finger yeah yeah instead of two right yeah because django only had two but that's what a great nora's amazing. Yeah, yeah. Also, you love that one, huh? Oh, man, yeah. So you're coming up, and he's showing, so that was the way you could connect with him. Yeah. But who, at that time, when you were a child, who was still around of those guys that he would tour with?

Ray Charles. So you remember his, you know, hanging out with them? Ray Clapton, Bob Dylan. They would come to the house. Merle.

Merle was his best friend. Leon Russell, you know. They would be around the house? Always, yes. Oh, really?

Coming in and out of the bus when we'd be on the road. You know, he'd be playing chess with Ray Charles. He said famously, he said that Ray would force him to play in the dark. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And Dad's funny.

See, speaking of charisma on stage, Dad was a Bob Wills guy. So Dad really, his stage presence was... A band leader. Yeah, and I'm playing song after song, and I'm barely speaking. Yeah. But he's also like, you know, I think few people realize that the guy,

like someone like him, and I noticed it at the 90th, that, you know, everybody's looking to him for the cue. You know, like he's, no. It's not a great idea, but yes, yes. I mean, but the best thing to do when playing with dad is to keep the beat and don't follow him because he he is a jazz musician yeah and so he comes in and out and behind right and it's perfect the way he does it but if you don't if you don't stay steady behind right okay and play with the rest of the

band right then you're going to be following uh you're not going to know where you're not going to know where the hell you are yeah but i just picture bob wills as as sort of this not only an entertainer but a song to song guy but like you know he was that was a big operation he had yeah and and he was a band leader but but the thing about it is is that he didn't speak a lot right and and that in and going back to what we're talking about before and i think dad with dad that's probably a good idea because he has a lot of dirty jokes. Oh, yeah. And I'm not sure a lot of them would fly necessarily. Yeah.

You know, his jokes would probably be met with a certain level of, What's he talking about? Well, that's also like part of what I was talking about earlier about the mystique of a musician that the less your father talks, the more people have this relationship with their idea of him and the relationship with the songs. Yeah. Right? Well, and he does tell jokes, and he's got an offstage personality everybody knows and loves. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

He's done films and things like that. And I learned this. I'm actually trying to kind of find my own way with this a little more. Where I've recently been, I have been saying a few things just to connect a little more with the audience. Especially while people are tuning up. Yeah. I do appreciate the the professionalism that comes with you know

making an entire show with as little speaking as possible music does the speaking right and that's really what I what I do too right

I've taken that from him yeah and I think that the the lyrics I speak best with my lyrics and with my music right you know

yeah yeah when you're growing up are you watching him play with people? Yeah. I mean, was Merle at the house a lot? Yeah, a lot. Yeah. Merle and him were very close. It was that relationship, I think, him, Leon, Billy Joe Shaver.

Yeah. Waylon? Waylon, of course. Waylon, Johnny Cash. Yeah. Chris. Yeah. I mean? Waylon, of course. Waylon, Johnny Cash. Yeah. Chris. Yeah. I mean, really, the list goes on.

He was really close friends with a lot of good people. Yeah. And he had time with them. Sure. He had years and years and decades of before all of these guys came up in the same time, and they all sort of made it. Like when he left nashville yeah and was working doing those records with waylon you know those are like that that seemed to be the big shift for both of them and the camaraderie that comes with having gone through that together

and having you know having sort of paved their own way yeah and feeling yeah you know hot on themselves about it when yeah and rightly so i think they you know they because they proved they proved that whole system wrong yeah that they could that you know they say oh this is the way country music is supposed to be right and then they say well no that we're gonna go and we're gonna we're gonna go down to austin and yeah and connect with this whole other group of people that likes all kinds of music but loves country music and loves the fact that it has its influences in jazz and the blues. Yeah, and then some of the psychedelic stuff started to happen. Yeah, exactly.

Because I've got three Earl Scruggs review records, and that's when he's got his kids on there. Yeah. Who are, you know, doing a different thing kind of. Yeah. And it's kind of wild. Doug Psalm was doing a lot back then. He's great. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Those guys were, you know, were Austin cats. Yeah, yeah.

I think, is he still around or he just, I can't remember. I don't know. I think he's all, I think he's around. I'm not sure. I didn't, you know. Yeah. It's, if he's not. Do you know Alejandro? if he's not do you know

Alejandro Escobedo yeah yes I don't know him very well but I know you know I know him

he wrote some good songs he's an Austin guy he is an Austin guy there's a lot of great Austin like and then Steve Earles

around there Steve Earle he's an amazing yeah he did he was ahead of the curve on taking country a different direction sure I mean he was you know he was ahead of the curve on taking country a different direction. Sure.

I mean, he was, you know, he was a Townes Van Zandt contemporary, you know. Townes is a little sad. Guy Clark. Yeah. You know, well, yeah, Townes was sad. It's heavy, man. Like, you know, it's one of those guys because I get like sort of an empathy thing. And if I listen to Townes, like sometimes I can only take so much.

It's a heavy heart to that stuff. It's funny you get that. I get that too. I can sense somebody's spirit in their music. Yeah, like sometimes I can only take so much. It's a heavy heart. It's funny you get that. I get that too. I can sense somebody's spirit in their music. Yeah. Yeah. And it's like too much. It's hard sometimes.

Right. Same with Brian Wilson, oddly. Yeah. Well, Brian was a sad, you know, he's had a rough time. Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes like people are like the Beach Boys. I'm like, I can't take it.

They're like, what do you mean? There's certain songs of the Beach Boys that when I listen to it just brings me to a heavenly place yeah like um warmth of the sun or or god only knows right sure certainly like you know pet sounds right you know yeah that kind of thing i i was a beach boys were even before the beat were a band that I really loved. But, yeah, I mean, you know. But also, like, there's that whole other world. I guess I sort of like the whole idea of, you know, you're being connected to it all because, you know,

country music is, it seems, even with the problems of personalities, from the beginning was a fairly tight community. Even after your dad left Nashville, that there was still a respect that went on. Oh, yes. And, like, you know, I watched that George Jones miniseries with the, did you watch that, Tammy and George, with Michael? Oh, my God. Was it good? Well, yeah.

I mean, that guy's like, it's insane. But, like, I don't know. Well, he was so loved. But also, everybody really felt for him. Yeah. Because he was, you know, towards the end of his drinking really got bad. Yeah. With her, too.

The public. Yeah. The public was in on it. Yeah. And then he had that extra pressure of people wanting him to be fucked up. Well, many country artists have that pressure now, even. Still? I think it's less now than then, but it is a cultural thing.

I think that, you know, I actually think it's getting better. Some of the songs are about it. Well, I mean, you know, I've got my song. You've got a couple songs. Alcohol-a-loo-ya. Yeah, that's a new one. Yeah. Was that on the last record? That's on the new record. Alcohol, yeah, yeah, yeah. Alcohol-a- my song. You've got a couple songs. Alcohol-aloo-ya. Yeah, that's a new one. Yeah. Was that on the last record?

That's on the new record. Alcohol-aloo-ya. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Alcohol-aloo-ya. That's a good tag. Yeah, that's funny. Yeah, yeah. And, you know, every time I drink, I think of her.

Look, I've been through it. When I was younger, you know, I went through it. You thought you needed to, or were you just kind of boozy? No, I actually, I didn't drink at all in high school. Yeah. I was doing a lot of psychedelics in high school. I was like, I was really experimenting. My days as a teenager were really actually informative for my soul.

In Austin? No, this was in Hawaii. I was in Austin in the early days, up until like 10 years old. And then Hawaii the rest of the time. So your whole family's down there? All over. My dad's got a ranch in Austin. Right, because I go to the barbecue place that he gets from Opie's. Oh yeah, yeah. Opie's is down a little further on 71. But I grew up, I was born in Austin, but I had my first birthday in Hawaii.

So I was going back and forth from Hawaii and Austin as a kid. So they're not together? Oh, yeah, my parents are together. But they had those two places. As soon as I could afford it, after Star is Born, I went and got a place in Maui of my own that's like 20 minutes from my parents' place. And that's where I live.

So that made you, huh? That Star is Born got you the break. Oh, yeah, yeah. That was, you know, it was an amazing experience, challenging, but amazing. So did Cooper approach you? How did it work? Yeah. So actually, Bradley saw me play Desert Trip with Neil.

Bradley saw me play Desert Trip with Neil. And then I got a call from Billy Gerber, which who was the producer of Star is Born, and said that Bradley wanted to meet. And so I went and met with him and then got hired on from there. As a consultant and as a... As an authenticity consultant. Because he did all right with that.

I thought he did all right with that. Well, yeah. I mean, and he took uh you know eventually i said why don't you just you know you like this vibe just take the my band and so i took we used my band uh and we used you know everybody was in the in you know in the film yeah but he really you know got the mannerisms right and he really took a lot of jackson main from i think what he saw in our band. Yeah.

It was really cool. And he played a big guitar. He grew his hair longer. And he used a lot of the mannerisms that I got on stage and that Neil has, too. And he loves Neil. Yeah. And then during that time, I started writing a lot with her and him, and then it evolved into a musical direction between the three of us.

With Gaga? Yeah. And so the big hit from that is, you got a co-writing credit on that? Oh, yeah, I wrote nine songs on that record. Oh, my God. And that's the most streamed record, most streamed soundtrack of all time.

That's pretty good. Yeah, yeah, it did great. Got a house in Maui. It got me a house in Maui. I'm really proud of that because it came from hard work. Yeah. And we did, and I feel very proud of the music that came from it. Yeah, I like the movie.

And I thought that that's another one, almost like a country song in a way where you realize that turn where you realize he took his entire personality from his brother, from Sam Elliott. And you realize that Bradley, that he's talking like him. And you don't really notice it until where it becomes revealed. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's kind of fucking genius. Bradley is that way. I would consider him a genius.

No, I think you're right. I think he works so hard and he focuses so completely. And I think that that's why it was so successful. was that it made me realize that the world really craves and loves organic music. If you had the same machine behind country music as you do pop music in terms of the production and the radio and all that, and you can see it now uh morgan wallen now has number one hit uh overtaking miley cyrus is the top one of the so you can see country music was really popular then is popular now i mean shallow is just my band i mean you know

that the the that song was the biggest song of whatever. And that's just me and a guitar playing that riff. You know what I mean? It's like, you know, it's encouraging to know that the masses do love that music and do gravitate towards that music.

It's part of, it's at the heart of American music. But the world, too. Sure. And, you know, I mean, like, the world loves acoustic guitar. The world loves just a piano. The world loves drums. Sure, there's a lot of different rhythms throughout the world.

And everybody loves it, and so it's not completely electronic. It's not, we still have the desire as a culture, a human culture, to hear these organic instruments. I think that's right. Yeah. You know? Yeah, yeah. And I think that's true. I think that, you know, the marketplace doesn't necessarily know how to prioritize it.

It does. That's what I'm saying is that you have a lot of the machine towards whatever's new and trendy. Sure. And a lot of the electronics and, the electronics and everybody chases this thing. And a lot of times it's authentic, but a lot of times it's what's hot, we should do that. But that's what I like about your guitar playing too, not unlike Neil, is that there is a purity to an electric guitar sound,

even if it's like distorted or whatever, that there's something more human about that kind of single coil, slightly distorted, if not really distorted. It sounds more human than almost any other type of electric guitar in a way. Totally. I mean, look, I think it's in the fingers. I've always felt like it's vibrato. It's how you hit the notes. It really brings the character out. The amps are so vast in terms of the Martin and the Taylor and everything. Yeah.

I noticed that the night of the party. Different. Yeah. It was kind of trippy to me because when Dave got out there with his acoustic guitar, it sounded totally different. Yeah. And same with Rodney and you. Yeah.

Everyone's acoustic sounded different. Yeah. And it wasn't because it was mixed differently. No. Well, no. It's just because it's a different guitar. Yeah. Different pickup.

Yeah. Different wood. Different fingers. Different fingers. And also different fingers. And that's, I think, you know, like Billy Gibbons could plug in a little $50 amp. Dude, he sat with me and played a cigar box guitar. That's what I'm saying.

And it's going to sound good. It was unbelievable. He played like some Ry Cooder riff. I think it was called The Ballad of Billy the Kid. Yeah. It was crazy. It was like sitting right there in my other garage. He said, I got this little cigar buck guitar.

Yeah. And I'm like, oh, my God. It's Billy Gibbons. Yeah. And you don't need, see, that's where the proof is, is that it's in the fingers. The tone is in the fingers then. I think so. How good a guitar player is that guy?

I mean, you know, he's one of the only other guitar players that Hendrix mentioned on live television. I know, I know. He opened for Hendrix in Texas when Hendrix came through the first time with the band he was in. And they were hanging out. Yeah. And I'm like, well, what did Hendrix do? He's like, Hendrix that had a an entire stereo set up in his room in his hotel room like a full console and he's just sort of like let's go

try and figure out what jeff beck is doing cool yeah well that's awesome yeah that's so so fucking cool is that wild yeah yeah that's wild but it makes me just gives me chills and how it does right because it shows that all he cared about his music. I remember hearing him about, he's like, oh, money. Yeah, money's great, but money, all money is just, I just put it into the recordings. Yeah. I just, every penny I get, I put into making better music. Yeah.

And that's all he was. That who, Jimmy? Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Jimmy was just all about like, oh, yeah, you know, I'm making some money, but look, it's all going into the next record. And he got in a lot. You know, and the one thing I always forget,

because I'm not a musician and you are, is that even as short as his life may have been, he was out on the road all the fucking time. Yeah. Like, he did hundreds of dates. Like, he was out there doing it. Yeah, yeah. And like, you know, you hear the records,

but you don't really realize the hours that he was putting putting in that's the one thing that you know there's certain things that you take from your heroes and there's certain things you want to leave behind one thing i don't ever want to do is run myself to the ground yeah and uh i think that i think that it's very easy to let people run you into the ground if you're not careful. Yeah. Because you have to tell yourself to strike while the iron's hot, right? Oh, you're big right now. You've got to go here.

You've got to do this. You've got to do this. This is important. This is a great thing you've got to do. I'll do all that but i also need nowadays because when i i mean look i i've been doing this now 15 years yeah uh and it's only now starting to catch on right which is fine yeah but i've learned in those 15 years and from watching dad and from watching a lot of other musicians that i mean i used to do 300 shows a year like like jimmy did yeah it was kind of like

uh in a way i look at it like my hamburg days you know like every musician's got their hamburg days where they got to pay their dues and you know but really i was running like a wheel on a hamster playing all these gigs that didn't like a hamster on a wheel playing gigs that didn't necessarily move my needle, but paid us. Right, and also got you, you know. And it got me hours. I'm glad I didn't make it back then, because I listened to my music back then.

Even as recently as six, seven years ago, I listened to recordings, and I say, wow, I'm glad. I'm just always looking forward is all I'm saying. It's interesting, though, because you listen to the old records, and not unlike people of your generation, whether it be, we're talking about Billy or Sturgill Simpson or whatever, that, you know, you knew where you were coming from, and you might have known where you were going, but you just weren't there yet. Totally. And I think it took you, it seems a little little while to really kind of ground yourself in country well i had to remember at certain point my roots yeah who i am right why i'm doing this what you know what i'm grateful for count my blessings in a way and and

also it seems like you've been playing with the same guys, right? Same guys, yeah, for a long time. And it seems like that is a tricky thing to do. That's what I'm most proud of. To keep a band together. That's, honestly. Yeah. And we've been through our ups and downs. Yeah. And we all have our, we have the freedom to do our own projects.

Sure. To do our own thing, which is a great thing. Yeah. But to have the same brothers yeah out there with that's why i started in the first place that that was the starry-eyed dream that was the idea go out make a living playing music with your friends having fun on the road yeah life i love is making music with my friends Can't wait to get on the road again. You know, it's just I want to go out and have a good time. Basically, I think of us as, you know, and this might be a little dark, but we're kind of like the fiddlers on the Titanic.

Yeah. You know what I mean? Sure. We're watching the world burn. Yeah. And what better way than to play a little music and make people yeah you know at least give some sort of relief to the anxiety of watching the titanic sink at you know at an alarming rate yeah you know with bulb temperatures you know everything

you know whatever's happening shootings and a little bit i mean i'm i'm uh i'm pretty down the middle of the road politically. Yeah. But what I don't like seeing is people not accepting others as human beings. Sure. And being so, such full of vitriol and anger. You know, and what I love about music is it's a one place where you can go and connect with people that you might otherwise not connect with. Yeah. And that's a beautiful thing. I think that's what saved us back in 1960s. Yeah.

During the time of that political unrest. Mm-hmm. My dad was at the time credited for bringing the hippies and the cowboys together. In Austin. In Austin. Yeah. I mean, those picnics that he had. And he made a lot of cowboys hippies. And he made a lot of cowboys hippies In Austin. In Austin. Yeah. I mean, those picnics that he had. And he made a lot

of Cowboys hippies. And he made a lot of Cowboys hippies and it's true and you know, the thing about it is is that I feel it. I feel it happening again.

There's a place where we all connect. I hope so. And I think that music is a tool that you can use and not when you're just drilling up

a message in someone's head but when you're just drilling up a message in someone's head, but when you're just saying, I have a heart. Right. These are human songs. I have a heart. I sing about my heart. Yeah. And when you can sing about your heart,

and then someone else is listening, they remember, oh, I have a heart too. Totally. It's like that song we were talking about. It's like, you know, she stopped loving him today. Yeah. He stopped loving her today. I tell you,

man, you know, like I listened to it a lot to try to figure out if I could play it. And I did, you know, it was neither here nor there, but every time I listen to that song, I get choked up.

And every time I listen to blue eyes crying in the rain, I get choked up. Yeah. It was a great, Fred Rose wrote that song. It was a beautiful song. Yeah. I mean, and, and, you know, obviously Dad made it a big hit,

which is funny because it's a very slow song. I mean, what a song to be a hit like that. But it's one of those songs where you, like, you know, whatever you're going to bring to it, that, you know, where are they meeting? Yeah. You know. Yeah. It's like, you know, it's this meeting? Yeah. You know. Yeah.

It's like, you know, it's this transcendent. Up yonder somewhere. Up yonder somewhere. Someday, somewhere. Yeah. But, you know, the thing is, yes, you're right. And there is that place where we all meet. Yeah.

And that's, I think, where music takes us. And so, you know, if we're not afraid to be, I think, you know, it's, if we're not afraid to be, I think, you know, comedians are vulnerable. Sometimes. Yeah.

I guess you can use comedy as a protective layer. I think that's the innate, that's where it comes from. Is it the protective layer? Well, it's just sort of like, you know, I can disarm the situation.

Yeah, but you know what? It's the most important thing in the world right now. Yeah. Is to be able to disarm the situation. Sure. You know, and to approach vulnerability. Yeah. I think so.

I'm not sure in my business that that's the agenda of everybody, but it definitely happens. I don't think it needs to be an agenda. I think it happens naturally, and especially if you're not trying. Yeah, yeah. You know what I mean? think it needs to be an agenda i think it happens naturally and especially if you're not trying yeah yeah you know what i mean like if you're just being like george carlin's one of my favorite obviously he's probably one of you yeah you know or you know you do you don't but there's there's oh yeah he's great you know that but he had so many amazing observations that he was able to bring to people and make them laugh about it, and it just completely disarms the resistance towards a new way of thinking.

Right, and also make people see things differently. I think he was very good at that. Yeah, it's amazing. So when you, like, do you run songs by Willie? Well, we write together. Yeah, you've written a lot together? We've written quite a lot together, and we love writing together. A lot of times I'll run songs by him that will cover too like you know the last uh one of the great covers that we did together that i'm

super proud of yeah i was listening to a lot of pearl jam and i oh yeah and i listened to this song called just breathe which was uh from their album backspacers a long time ago and dad and i covered it and it became this whole new thing a father-son thing because just breathe is is something dad would always tell me is like you know yeah he's it's a very zen kind of advice that he'd give me and and so I thought of him when I heard this song yeah and so when we covered that together that was special but and then I've been listening to a lot of dean martin i was like i told you earlier yeah and uh there's a a song that dean martin and ricky nelson did on uh real bravo uh i think it's uh my rifle my pony yeah oh yeah and that'd be a great one for a dad and i to do together sometimes i you know i'll come up with a song like that and say hey let's go record this yeah

and you do it oh yeah does you got You got it set up at the house? Well, we got a studio in Austin, and then we've got places in Nashville we could do it. But also that the album you did of all the country covers was great with you and your brother and Willie. Yeah. With all the Hank Williams tunes. Oh, yeah.

And then there was a George Harrison song thrown in there that we did, All Things Must Pass. Yeah. With all the Hank Williams tunes. Oh, yeah. And then there was a George Harrison song thrown in there that we did, All Things Must Pass. Yeah. But it's interesting that he's one of those guys not unlike George Jones. And I could tell on that record when you're all singing together that not unlike you said about his guitar playing is that you don't know where he's going to go vocally, really. Oh, no. He's a jazzy guy yeah yeah it's crazy he he's his phrasing is brilliant you know like it it really is sinatra level yeah of of sure raising and so you have to just hold down the rhythm you don't follow him let me just say yeah now Now, before we go, I got to ask, how is it with Keith Richards?

Oh, I love Keith Richards. What do you mean? Well, he showed up, like, I was so thrilled because I got tickets for that. Yeah, you came the right day then. That's right. Yeah, because, and I got him, like, the day before. I just happened to, you know, reach out to, like, whatever few connections I have. And the promoter is a fan of mine.

And the guy I reached out to at Live Nation, well, whatever, the guy's like, oh, you gotta come. Keith is gonna be here. I'm like, what? So how was it? You were on stage with them. Oh, yeah, yeah.

How was that, playing with them? Oh, it was beautiful. It was beautiful. My band has opened for them a couple of times. For the Stones? Yeah. We did a giant stadium, and then we did that Seattle Seahawks Stadium. Oh, yeah?

Yeah. I mean, they were always so sweet, and that was back when Charlie was still around, which I was just so grateful we got to. Speaking of, you've got a big Rolling Stones poster right here. Yeah, it's my poster, yeah. But, yeah, it was funny. Keith was there, and he was, for a long time they were saying he was going to do Dead Flowers. Yeah. And they were going to do Dead Flowers together.

Yeah. But they ended up doing Live Forever. Yeah. Which was a great, I mean, that was, you know. Yeah. And the way they did, I mean, it was so, that one made me choke up. The two of them? Yeah, that was special.

My brother was there, too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it was really nice. But not unlike Neil, I think Keith is really settled into quite the raconteur and funny guy. Like, he just seems like he's having the best time of his life right now. You know, I think you're right. I think he is well there's a great song that dad and merle did together uh on their record before merle passed uh called jango and jimmy that that record and the song was called uh live this long

and they had a great line yeah is it we'd have taken much better care of ourselves if we'd have known who's gonna live this long it's a great line you know come on whose song is that oh you know i don't know who wrote it maybe they wrote it it's wild about country music is that like you know these there are these guys who write those songs yeah like i think i learned more about that watching that george George and Tammy thing, that there's this whole world of guys just trying to get songs to Willie Nelson or George Jones. Sure, sure. And one of the coolest things in country music recently was, I think, Luke Combs covered

and had a number one hit with a Chapman's song called Fast Car. It's a great song. He's got a fast car. Yeah. And Luke Combs is a big country star. And now she's the sole writer on that song. Yeah. A lot of times in country now, there's five writers on one song.

Right. That's what it seems with all music now. And five producers. And the five producers. And it's a writers on one song. Right. That's what it seems with all music now. It's the way- And five producers. And the five producers, and it's a team effort. Yeah. But to have a number one country song with the way country music is going right now, as Tracy Chapman, you got to be going, oh, man.

Yeah. That's great. Progress. That's great. She made a little change off of that. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's crazy, man. That's great. She made a little change off of that. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah. That's crazy, man.

Well, who produced this new one? We did. You did? Yeah, we produced. We got a great Billy Centenaro as the engineer. Yeah. And we got a great engineer, and we did it at that studio that the Wilburys. Oh, out here.

Out here. And it was great. You know, I knew what we wanted. I knew what I wanted to do. I knew the sound we were going for. And the band was into it. And the band was into it. And we arranged it and got it together.

And I had all the songs, and it didn't take long. And do you find, are you pulling in, like, what is the fan base? Are you getting the old country people? Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, for a long time, it was only those people. And now it's getting to be, you know, now it's getting to be a lot of younger people and, you know, people my age, at least. Yeah, yeah.

And, you know, we welcome all. Yeah, of course. Of course. Well, it was great talking to you, man. Yeah, you too. Thanks for doing it. Hey, of course. Well, it was great talking to you. Yeah, you too. Thanks for doing it. Hey, thank you. Okay, that was a very pleasant conversation and very full.

The album, again, Sticks and Stones, is available Friday, July 14th, wherever you get music. Hang out for a minute, will you? It's winter, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs, mozzarella balls, and arancini balls? Yes, we deliver those. Moose? No.

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See app for details. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Center in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. Folks, three years ago this week, we were still isolated during the pandemic, but that

didn't stop me from talking with Jerry Seinfeld for the first time ever on episode 1129. There's nothing harder than getting a laugh. There are other things you can do on stage, but that's the hardest thing.

So if you want to do the hardest thing, that's it. Have you said that before? No. And I totally accept and approve of people doing whatever the hell you want. I get it.

Comedy is when you go to the music store and you buy a guitar, the guy at the cash register doesn't tell you what to do with it. Right. You do whatever you want with it. That's right. So that's what I think about comedy.

Do whatever you want with it. So if that's what you like to do, I'm for that. But I like to do the other thing. That's what I like to do. The funny thing? I like to do the other thing. That's what I like to do. The funny thing? I like the laugh. I like to hear it.

Do you know any comics? I want to hear that laugh. I love it. Do you know a lot of comics that don't like the laugh? No, I don't know any comics that don't like the laugh but there are comics that will tell you and i'm sure you're one of them that there are other interesting things that you can do and that's who we're going to part ways i think the laugh is very important but i do i don't mind like a laugh that could be crying

there's a fine line between that laugh of like oh god I don't mind like a laugh that could be crying. There's a fine line between that laugh of like, Oh God, I don't mind that laugh. It's a different type of laugh. Yeah. As long as there's a laugh, I don't care what, you know, as long as there's a laugh. All right. So you knew this was going to happen, right? When we talked. Kind of. Well, I mean, but, but so you do, but you do have a sense of who I am. I think so. Yeah. From Tom Papa. He's told me about you. Again, that's episode 1129, Jerry Seinfeld, and that's available for free right now in whatever podcast app you're using. You can also get all WTF episodes ad free

if you sign up for WTF plus. Just go to the link in the episode description or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF plus. All right, here we go. I might use a classic guitar piece because I don't have time right now, but you, you won't know the difference. Will you? So I'm not even going to say now, I mean, this might be new, might not be. Thank you. Thank you. boomer lives monkey thefonda cat angels everywhere