WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1453 - Cillian Murphy

Episode Date: July 17, 2023

Cillian Murphy knew he wanted to become an actor when he saw A Clockwork Orange. Not the Kubrick film, but an avant-garde theatrical production in a nightclub. From there he left his dreams of being a musician behind and began his acting journey. Cillian tells Marc the lessons he learned from directors like Ken Loach and Christopher Nolan, with whom he’s collaborated on six films. They also talk about Peaky Blinders, 28 Days Later, and trying on the Batman suit. This interview was recorded on June 27, 2023. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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To show your true heart is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney+. 18-plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. Lock the gates! all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast welcome to it it's been going on a while it has been going on a while if you've never going on a while. If you've never been here, welcome. If you have been here, how are you? What's going on? You all right? I hope the weather

is not totally catastrophic where you are. I am in LA and I got to be honest with you, the last few days, the weather has been perfect. If you're in California for the California experience, the weather has been perfect. A little hot, but not like, oh my God, I'm going to die. Not that hot, which is good if you're out there in front of studios with signs holding the line. I want to show my support, give my support, speak my support to my union brothers and sisters. I am a dues-paying member of the WGA and SAG-AFTRA. But the truth is their demands are not being met. Their reasonable demands are not being met

to earn a wage that would entitle them to make a decent, okay living for the profession they've chosen with the protections they deserve in the new media landscape. It's important. It does affect the art and the business of movies and television. And well, let's just break it down a little bit because I had to learn myself. And there are some things we can and can't do on this show now in support of the strike. So SAG-AFTRA, the actors, struck because the actors were not offered a fair contract by the Alliance of Motion Picture and Television Producers. That's the trade association that represents the major movie studios, the broadcast television networks, the streaming services, and some cable TV networks.

And it's just, look, there was also talk a week or so ago. It was a fact that these entities, these movie studios, broadcast television networks, streaming services, some cable networks, were going to try to starve the writers out. So the timing is good. It's supportive. It's a big day and a big week and a big action for unions in general in this business. Now, here are the key issues. Compensation has been eroded with the rise of streaming, obviously. Rules need to be changed for both upfront pay and residual payments. They kind of got away with some stuff for a lot of years here now with no back end for the writers and actors. As artificial intelligence is used more in productions, a contract needs to protect the identities and the work of union members going

forward, obviously. Look, I'm not at the table, but I don't know why this stuff isn't just declared out and out animation, but maybe that's a conversation. Now, the deal is SAG-AFTRA was not offered a fair agreement that addresses all the terms I just mentioned. While the union is on strike here at WTF, we will not be booking anyone to promote anything that's the product of the companies in the trade association. The union guidelines do say that any pre-banked press appearance that was agreed upon and completed before the strike date of Thursday, July 13th is permitted to air or be published. We have a few interviews that are banked from before the strike, and we will still air those interviews to discuss the guest's life and work. Like for instance, today's interview with Killian Murphy was recorded on

June 27th. Now, you know, this is a big deal because I don't guess with people's perception of what we do out here in Hollywood, or just to say, or what we do in show business, you know, just how many people are involved and what it means to be paid fairly i mean whatever your job may be and however much you make uh the unions are there to protect you uh somehow or another over the last 50 years or so the unions have have been demonized and broken down but these unions out here are pretty fucking strong and they're not asking for anything but a a fair deal i mean it doesn't matter what you think of how much money actors make or how much money writers make there's a lot of actors and writers that that make little that don't make much that

are working to get by background actors for, could get screwed entirely if they're not represented properly by the union, by a deal. They could just be made up. Almost any actor, just take their face and their body and throw it into the magic machine and you can produce the zombie version. I mean, that's a big deal. I don't know much about it. I know it's frightening and I know that on some level parts of it are inevitable. But the deal is the deal needs to be fair and it needs to represent this stuff. And I have hoped that it will. So I struggle sometimes for many years to maintain my health insurance. You know, obviously, when I for years, when I wasn't working in the union, uh, I had to go to Cobra. I had to go to Kaiser. I had, you know, there is something about being represented by a union that, that does feel like you have a voice, like you're

protected. And it's definitely, um, the only way with some professions that you have any traction against corporate bloodsuckers and exploiters. Now, granted, in this particular instance, the exploiters are entertaining you. Well, we'd like to think as actors, writers and creators who are represented in this union that we are necessary. that we are necessary. We are a necessary part of that and that we deserve compensation that is relative to the insane, greedy cash grab that streaming companies and their parent companies are getting.

It's really kind of an amazing thing to see union action and to see it still alive. I think there's a bit of momentum on behalf of a lot of unions post-COVID. If we can get back to that, if we can get back to just, you know, trying to get people a fair wage and get some health coverage in a reasonable way,

in a safe way, it's really the way it should be. But there are forces within certain political factions and business factions that will do anything not to do that. Child labor laws are being broken down in some states. Yeah, that's where it goes. God forbid corporations compensate their workers properly who are grownups trying to raise kids. Why not just get the kids into the factory at the

machines? Yeah, 11, 12, why not? They have hands. Why not lose them? So maybe that's a little extreme, but that's what's going on. So that's the deal. I'll be at Dynasty Typewriter tomorrow. That's Tuesday, July 18th, and also next Tuesday, July 25th. Then I'm back at Dynasty Typewriter tomorrow. That's Tuesday, July 18th. And also next Tuesday, July 25th. And I'm back at Largo on Thursday, July 27th. I'll be at the Salt Lake City Wise Guys on August 11th and 12th for four shows. Then I'm at the Las Vegas Wise Guys on September 22nd and 23rd, also four shows. And in October, I'm at Helium in Portland, Oregon on October 20th through 22nd. You can go to WTFpod.com for tickets to all these shows. And in October, I'm at Helium in Portland, Oregon on October 20th through 22nd.

You can go to wtfpod.com for tickets to all these shows. And if I add shows, I'll let you know. These club shows are primarily to work out whatever the hell I'm working on. I mean, that's what's happening. I guess I'm just going to keep doing it. So I was in New Mexico. I don't know if I really talked to you about that, but if I did, I'll say it again. My dad is hanging in there. He hasn't changed much since the last time I saw him a few months ago. Still, you know, tethered to the reality.

Still able to remember things and engage. Had him laughing a lot. I remember I told you that, but there's a story I forgot to tell you, which I think is something that has some kind of broader relevance is that, you know, before my dad got ill years ago, he was in trouble. And it was one of those things where I couldn't really wrap my brain around what was happening or what was going on with him. But years ago, he was the prescribing doc at a pain management clinic that got busted. There was a big crackdown on pain management in general with the opioid epidemic. And the one my father worked at was busted by the feds.

And he was accused of overprescribing. And it never sat right with me. My dad was just not that guy. And I had told him even years ago when he was going to get into the business as a prescribing doc. I said, you're going to be dealing with drug addicts and you should really know what drug addicts are because they're going to be around and they're going to be you know worming you and but pain management was this weird vague thing that you know was the gateway to the opioid epidemic but my dad was working in earnest and I, you know, I don't, I can't speak for his partner,

but, but when they cracked down, you know, my dad got dragged through the mud for over-prescribing and these numbers were like, you know, ridiculous. Like they were completely ridiculous. Now, so my dad, you know, kind of went broke and, you know, with legal defenses against civil lawsuits and whatnot. And I just never could, it just never, he always said he was guilty of nothing. And I, you know, he just wasn't that guy. So it turns out, and this is the part of the story. They wrote an article on my old man in the goddamn paper and dragged him through the mud

and made an example of him in his hometown, caused him tremendous stress, had to him in his hometown, caused him tremendous stress, had to give up his license, had to go bankrupt. He had to, you know, he, you know, he was publicly shamed. And then it turns out his wife, I mean, I, they told me the story the last time I was there, but I heard it again. And I just, I think it has broader implications is that my, my dad's wife reached out to the FBI and he'd been vindicated, totally vindicated like a couple of years ago. They never informed my dad's wife or my dad that after a full investigation, he'd been totally vindicated because somebody had stole the script

pads. Now, I don't know if his partner colluded or not. I can't make any accusations, but it was not my dad. Somebody either sold all the script pads or just writing phony scripts. And the FBI said he was entirely not guilty. But was there an article in the newspaper about that? No. Was there any conversation about it? No. Not as interesting a story, is it? And I imagine that happens a lot. I imagine people just fade back into the background and there's no real traction to vindication. and it's just sort of heartbreaking that this was the sort of last kind of massive event of his life revolved around this horrible situation and now you know his memory of it is fading and i guess if there are there is any silver lining to uh to dementia it's that the good things fade along with the bad things and along with all things. But I thought I should tell that story because no one else is going to tell it. And I know that my father and his wife listened to this show. And I just think it's important to know that side of the story.

You know, I don't know why the Albuquerque Journal didn't follow up after, you know, making my dad's life a walking hell in the legal. I don't know why the FBI didn't reach out in a more quick fashion or to make sure that they knew that given that he was in in the position he was in but um but i'll do it i'll do it right here on my podcast my father barry maron was totally vindicated from all the charges against him by the fbi all right it's kind of touching somehow fucking sad story sometimes life right all right look um this uh killian murphy interview that you're about to hear was again it was recorded uh on june 27th and uh we're going to talk. Here we go.

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Telecaster, my first guitar. You want to wear a can? My first guitar. Yeah? Yeah, like a, what do you call it, sunburst. Oh, like a tobacco sunburst? Yeah. Oh, that's a good one.

When did you get that? Like what year? I was like 18 or 19. I was working in like washing dishes in a restaurant. And I knew the guitar. Yeah. So I got them to keep it for me. And then I worked like a year. To get the guitar?

Yeah. Did it have the white binding on it? Like around the edge? That tobacco sunburst with the white? No, it doesn't have the white. Oh. No, it doesn't have the white. But it's an old Fender?

New Fender? So I guess it's my bottom. So it's like 30 the white. Oh. No, it doesn't have the white. But it's an old Fender? New Fender? I guess it's my bottom, so it's like 30 years old. You still got it? Yeah, man. My son plays it now. Yeah? Yeah. Is that the only guitar you got? No, I have a I have an SG. Oh, yeah.

Black SG. That's good. Like a newer one? I can't remember, but that's about 20 years old as well. That's a good one. Yeah. And I have one of those old, I can't remember what it's called. Remember these as well that's a good one yeah and I have one of those old I can't remember what it's called there are these like kit guitars

you can buy in the 50s and like like a silver tone or something that's what it is a silver tone yeah come with the amp

yeah but I didn't get the amp I just got the guitar yeah that's good they're a nice nice sound off those yeah and I like the way they look

yeah they're great they're great looking so but the the music thing obviously was a dream at some point. It totally was, yeah. And then it just died.

But it's a nice jump to go to something equally as potentially unlucrative. Yeah. It worked out for you. I think in the long run to succeed as an actor

in general is even better than succeeding as a magician a magician that's a tough racket magicians but as a musician

you know musicians like yeah they do alright for a while but you really gotta land that big money take it's a young man's game

too isn't it yeah but if you're a young man and you lock in with enough people with a certain sound you can certainly run that thing into a ground for like 30 years. Well, certain acts. Yeah. But it's weird, man. I don't know. Lately I've been going back and listening to things and watching things that I saw as a younger man and thought I understood. Yeah. And then I watched him years later and I'm like, I didn't even fucking get any of this.

I know. Do you ever do that? Totally, yeah. I did that with U2, oddly. Huh. It's not that I didn't get them, but you get so overwhelmed with U2 as a modern rock band, but if you listen to those first two albums, they just sound like some guys playing. And then that goes away, man.

Yeah. Did you grow up with And then that goes away, man. Yeah. Did you grow up with them in there? Yeah, totally. But for me, it kind of started around Joshua Tree. That was my era. Right. Well, that's when they're bigger than life. Yeah.

I mean, I think that's a perfect album. Sure. I think it's absolutely perfect. And it's actually, when you listen back to it, it's a gospel record. Sure. Yeah, sure. It's all about the Jesus. It turns out that a lot of their stuff's

about the Jesus. Yeah, but this one I think is... A little vaguer. It's vague. It's less on the nose. I adore that record. I put it on regularly, like on a drive.

Yeah. It's just a magnificent record. Sure it is. I remember when it came out, it was one of those records that you could not avoid. Yeah. It was like, it just became like oxygen for about six months.

Do you remember them from when you were a kid? That was the introduction. I remember I had that on cassette. Oh. But they weren't around in Ireland. Oh, they were huge in Ireland. Of course. The biggest thing.

Yeah, but they were over here. They were over here being famous and playing stadiums. Doesn't he go out and busk occasionally? Bono? Yeah. Yeah, he does. Every Christmas. Yeah, but they were over here. They were over here, like, being famous and playing stadiums. Doesn't he, like, go out and busk occasionally? Bono? Yeah. Yeah, he does, every Christmas. Yeah, on Graffin Street. He sure does.

I went to see him do his one-man show. I hear it's amazing. It's good. You know, he's, like, you know, he's good. You know, he's talking about his dad. Yeah. But the music's really amazing, because it's all stripped down. Like, he does, like, a handful of songs, but it's only, like, a cello player.

Yeah. And, like, a keyboard person and him. And that voice. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He's something. He really is. I read the book.

I loved it. Oh, you did? Yeah, I did. I read most of it. I thought we were going to interview him. Yeah, I'm surprised you didn't. I don't know, man. You know what I mean? I'm not magic.

It feels like you get everyone else. Yeah, but they got to come around. You know, there's some people, like I ran into you. I had no idea you knew the show. And I saw you on, were you coming or going to New Mexico? Is that what it was? We were, I was flying with Chris. We had shot in LA and we were about to start shooting in New Mexico.

That's when I saw you and I didn't even know Chris or introduce myself or know enough to say. You were unbelievably cool. Yeah. We recognized you straight away. I didn't even put it together. Did I put it together that that was Chris Nolan? I'm like, I'm a fucking idiot, dude. I don't know like who's who or what's what.

We were sitting directly across from you. I know. And then afterwards we talked a little bit and then you said that, you said that, no, no, Chris said that he admired your boots. Yeah. And he also admired your bag. Oh, yeah. Did I tell him where I got them all? You did, yeah.

Oh, yeah, that's right. I told him Filson. They were probably Filson or something. Yeah, yeah. We had a little conversation about that. And then you said, yeah, you were from there, which I didn't. Yeah. Yeah.

And then we, and that was it. I went to, that's so funny that like I didn't even, I'm not sure that, I knew that you were from there which i didn't yeah yeah and then we that was it i went to that's so funny that like i didn't even i'm not sure that i knew who you were because at some point you scared me so like i was able to so like i know that guy he's the scary guy and then uh and then like i didn't even register chris nolan i didn't know that you're going out there to do oppenheimer i like theoretically you assume that people in Hollywood were up to speed. But I'm like, who's this Chris guy? Oh, my God.

He's made a few movies, yeah. Big movies. I saw Oppenheimer yesterday. Oh. Did you see it in IMAX? Yeah, I saw it in the whole thing on film, 70-millimeter film, IMAX experience. I haven't seen it like that yet. You haven't?

Nope. You could have gone do what you couldn't get on the list there was nobody there you had jordan jordan peele was there and john favreau and and elvis mitchell and a few other reviewers it was like 12 people in the room that's pretty cool but yeah yeah those guys went they go see the uh the master's work but uh the movie's great and you were great in it okay Okay. It's quite a process, man. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, I haven't seen it since January and it was a little overwhelming when I did see it. So I don't know. My recall or kind of response to it is probably not really accurate. Overwhelming. It's an overwhelming movie. That's all that guy makes. I know. But this was like, it's so funny because there's only the

second real biopic this focus that i've seen in the last year and the other one was uh with uh with butler as elvis oh yeah and it's so funny that the process like he couldn't he couldn't shake elvis i talked to him months after the thing and he's still having a hard time shaking elvis but it seems like you've gotten rid of Oppenheimer. Well, yeah, I feel like I'm pretty much back to myself. It was intense. Like it was, it was intense. Yeah.

And, um, I don't know. You're gonna have to ask me a question. Oh, about it? How about that moment where you just go up the scaffolding and go face to face with the first bomb? Oh yeah. And you just stand there looking at the bomb. Yeah.

It's very quick, that piece. It's like, it's only about 15 seconds, but I imagine that was a big day. Yeah. In terms of what

you were thinking. Yeah. I mean, it was huge. A lot of things about this film though, it's thematically so huge.

Oh yeah. And all the questions it posed, all these huge kind of ethical, moral kind of paradoxes. It's kind of massive. And it's very hard to kind of give sound bites about it. You know, you try and do it as truthfully and as honestly as you can and as respectfully as you can.

The performance, you mean? Yeah. And try to get yourself into that headspace. It was a tough one, this one. It was very, very complex. You know the way a normal, you're playing a normal protagonist. Sure.

It goes from A to B and there's a curve and there's an arc and you end up somewhere else. With him, it was so tricky. Like he was kind of all over the graph in terms of his journey and his arc

and how he changed and went backwards and how he dealt with whatever he was dealing with in his head. Well, yeah, I noticed that. I mean, I noticed that like when you talk about or you have talked about the seagull like Chekhov, right? So that there is something about it. And this is something I learned relatively late in my life about the way drama is structured, that that character has to transform. Yeah. And I imagine that makes it very engaging as an actor.

But Oppenheimer, give or take, you know, was struggling with things or perhaps weighing things. And he fluctuated. But I didn't get the sense that he necessarily, you know, transformed. But the world profoundly transformed because of him. Yes, because of his actions. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it's sort of a different game.

Yeah, that's why it makes him a kind of an unusual protagonist. Yeah. For sure. And then trying to, because his position, you know, myself and Chris always talked about it like that he was dancing between the raindrops morally. That's one way that was very useful to me. That's interesting. When we were shooting it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because there's a up to the point of the Trinity test. Yeah. It's kind of it's clear enough because there's Germany

they're the bad guys we need to get a bomb but then it gets very muddy you know when Germany surrender and then Yeah, what do we do? Do we keep doing it? We're still making it.

Yeah. We're in the middle of this thing. Yeah, we're almost there. Yeah. And that's when it gets very interesting dramatically. Well, I think that you played it well in that this thing that you talk about him going back and forth

is really like, you know, what he's weighing is something that no mortal had to weigh ever. And then on top of that, it's sort of like, how much is a rationalization? Yeah. And how much was it a belief?

Right? Because all these nerds just want to, you know, see if what they think is correct. Yeah. Right? Well, it's theoretical.

Right. Yeah. So it was like, you know, that's sort of what goes through the movie and what, you know, he gets sort of prosecuted

or crucified for is his moral compass. But, you know, he gets sort of prosecuted or crucified for is his moral compass. But, you know, he had to somehow weigh in his head that, well, if we don't do it, they're going to do it. Yeah. And it's going to exist whether we do it or not. Yeah. So let's do it. Yeah. Yeah. Totally. And again, like, you know, there's all sorts of ways I imagine they manage to rationalize it or live with it. Yeah, of course. Some of them.

But I thought Chris was pretty smart in those moments. Like after, you know, the moment where you speak briefly after the bombings. Yeah. And you're walking through that crowd that, you know, you have. Like it's very weird as an audience member to see everybody cheering because you're like, they don't know what's this. This is a disaster. You know, you can get it, but there's actually, as an audience member, there's sort of a moral turpitude within you watching that. But as you walked out, walked through the crowd as Oppenheimer, clearly there's some

people in the crowd that were not handling it well. Yeah. Well, I think that was very deftly handled by Chris himself in terms of how do you kind of, it's again, it's these themes and the reality and the horror and the fucking genocide and all the stuff that happened. Right. How do you kind of put that into a film? And he did it in this way that is so subtle, I think, and beautifully handled in the immediate aftermath. Because it's this kind of paradox or juxtaposition

of like celebration and horror at the same time. Kind of amazing. Yeah, and how do you do that? I thought he did it brilliantly. Yeah, I mean, it's like,

and also to make him empathetic if possible. Yeah. But the bottom line is, whether it's a big movie or not, me as an American guy, as a guy who grew up in New Mexico.

Yeah, of course. I didn't know any of that shit. Really? Yeah. I didn't know any of that shit. Really? Yeah. I didn't read the book. I knew Oppenheimer, they'd done something out there. So did you know about

Los Alamos and all that? Sure. I grew up knowing there was a lab there and I knew, of course we knew that the missile tests were there and there's a museum over there.

Did you go over there? Yeah, yeah. The Atomic Museum or is it Kirkland Air Force Base? Is it there? Oh, actually, maybe I didn't go to that one. Where they actually have

models of the two bombs? Oh, okay. No, I didn't go to that one. Where they actually have models of the two bombs? Oh, okay. No, I didn't go to that one. Yeah, yeah. I mean, we went there when I was in school and stuff. Sure. And I went to White Sands, but that was not, he didn't have anything to do with that. No.

But I didn't know that they built the fucking town for him. Yeah. Like, I had no idea that history, and I grew up there. It made me feel stupid, but I miss a lot of things. I shouldn't beat myself up. I don't know anything. But so for me to learn the story, and I certainly didn't know the story afterwards. I didn't even know he was a Jew, and I'm a Jew, and I like knowing when people are Jews.

But I didn't even know that. Right. You know, it is a fairly thorough telling of that guy's story. Yeah, I think so. Did you read the book? I did, yeah, I did. Yeah, I think so. Did you read the book? I did, yeah, I did. Yes, you had to. I didn't have to.

You know, the thing about playing a real-life character, which I hadn't really done before, certainly not an iconic figure like Oppenheimer, there's a wealth of archival stuff. You can spend months and months and months. You can see him talking. Exactly. But that was also could be slightly unhelpful because, you know, when he's giving those lectures, that's quite performative.

I don't think that's him like kind of in a candid setting talking to his buddy. So I use them. But what I'm trying to say is that there's so much there that you can't, if you spent all your time trying to absorb it, you're just losing, you know, I think what you have to go after

is the kind of humanity and the person. Right. And then ultimately the script is your main resource. Right. You know, Chris's version of events

is what we're telling. Yeah. So that became the thing that I studied most of all. And then, again, you know,

you know when you're in a scene, all the, all the research and everything that you've done, you kind of just abandon it and you're in the moment with the other actor and it's all about what's happening right there in the moment. Sure. Uh, and, and you're trying to be as human as possible in, in that. And so once you've done all the preparation. Exactly. So what I'm trying to say is that it's, it's not an intellectual process at that point.

It's a purely instinctual all the preparation. Exactly. So what I'm trying to say is that it's not an intellectual process at that point. It's a purely instinctual, emotional one. Right. But like, you know, like for me, like in, and also like talking about Austin, you know, Butler and Elvis, that these are two characters, like it's interesting that these are going to be the huge biopics of the last couple years. You know, they're

fairly explosive, if you don't mind the, you know, different types of explosions, but nonetheless impactful, right? And, you know, he kind of had to submerge himself in, you know, this being him. Now, like, for somebody like Oppenheimer, I imagine there is some sort of key that you found to his humanity, like, you know, like going into it. Because like, even when I go into these conversations, like I have to find like some place to start. Yeah.

Like, you know, where did you start with that guy in terms of like, who is this guy? Do you think that way? I do, of course. At the beginning, it was quite superficial. Uh-huh. Because I wanted to get the silhouette and the physicality right. Okay.

Right. Because he had such a distinctive frame and he was so slim and so kind of like underweight all of his life. Yeah. And he just existed on like cigarettes of his life. Yeah. And he just existed on like cigarettes and martinis. Yeah. So we spent an awful lot of time with the, you know,

costume. So I got the script like six months before we started shooting. So while I was reading all this stuff, I was flying out here

and we were doing camera tests and makeup tests and costume tests. Right. So I really wanted to get that right first. And sometimes, not always, that's a way into the interior. So for me this time, in this particular character, the silhouette and the look and the physicality

was a good way. And then the voice. And then reading a lot about his kind of childhood and particularly his adolescent years. Yeah. Was quite. Helpful. Yeah. And you just kind of put that into your brain.

Yeah. You know, yeah. Yeah. I don't like, I don't trust it, but I imagine for me, you know,

I don't trust myself in that, you know, like I, I think I'm doing that, but I haven't done enough acting to be convinced that I'm doing it. Yeah. Yeah. I really struggle talking about acting.

Sure. Talking about the process, talking about what it is. And there's all these like stupid cliches like it's alchemy and it's, you know, but it kind of is. It kind of don't know what happens. You do all the work and I love research and I do it all. But ultimately, when you get on the floor between you and your partner and the director yeah that's where it happens right that's always and that's why i don't love rehearsal yeah because that's where it happens and i really really rely on instinct yeah well that's well that's you have to it's clear because that's where the moments happen yeah but like i like i i don't know how much you know about me or the show, but, I mean, I have sort of an obsession with Ireland.

Yeah, I know you've been there recently as well, yeah. I was there recently, but also, like, you know, there was a period there where I'm like, I'm going to move there. But lately, it's shifted because, like, I realize it's too far away. I'm not Irish. It's not like they're just going to embrace me. And now I'm doing a whole comedy bit about being the, you know, just the guy in, in the sort of, in the County where I'm just the, the Jew who bought the farm and how locals are just watching me try to shear sheep. And I'm chasing after them. They're going, it looked easy on the video. So, so like I've, I've shifted a bit, but I'm still sort of, you know, fascinated with how down-to-earth the culture is.

And the last trip I took, I went to the theater impulsively. Cool. And I don't do that a lot. You know, I wish I went more. It's not part of my life. But for some reason, I was in Ireland, I was in Dublin, and there was something at the Abbey Theater. I'm like, well, fuck it. Just go watch it.

It sounds interesting. And it struck me differently than my experience with American theater because it felt like it was something that people did in Ireland. That theater was vital somehow. Am I misreading that? No, I think you're right. It definitely is very vital, yeah. I saw The Solar Bones. Oh, yeah.

That's an adaptation of a novel. Yes. Yeah. That Mike McCormick novel and the guy was Stanley Townsend. Oh, great. That's an adaptation of a novel. Yes. Yeah. That's right. That Mike McCormick novel. And the guy was Stanley Townsend. Oh, great actor. Yeah. Great, great actor.

And it's like basically a one-man show. Cool. And it was that story. The guy's dead. You know? Yeah. Yeah. And it's an hour and a half of him sort of.

Is it kind of a monologue? Yeah. It's all him. Excellent. And it seemed interesting. And then I wanted to read the book. And then I bought the book. And then I'm like, maybe I should

move to Ireland. It all ties together. But the experience of going to the Abbey Theatre there and looking at the people that went, it wasn't like you know, these the kind of audience you see at American Theatre. You mean like subscription kind of audiences? Right. It seemed like people who

were like, well, this is something we need to do. Yeah. I think it does exist. I think, you know, who were like, well, this is something we need to do. Yeah. I think it does exist. I think, you know, it can always be better. But I think there's great, I mean, there's a great tradition of theater in Ireland. Yeah. And there's a great festival in Galway where I've done a lot of theater work, the Galway Arts Festival. And there's, you know,'s the the Gate Theatre and there's obviously the Abbey that you're at yeah so there's great theatre makers there um so yeah and and

there's the Dublin Theatre Festival and young people do go along if that's what you mean like yeah not just it's not just gray hair you see in the audience well what did you like you don't come from a family that you're not you're not from a family of artists necessarily? No, teachers. Yeah? Yeah. Well, that's supportive. In what way? I mean, I always feel like teachers, they're not going to be sort of like, what are you doing with your life?

Depends on the teacher, I suppose. I guess that's true. I guess I always think of them as relatively progressive. Yeah. Well, my mom and dad, they're retired now. They're both teachers. And then my grandfather was like a headmaster. Well, that's different.

It's their job to go, what are you doing with your life? And then all my aunties and uncles, the majority of them are teachers. Where'd you grow up in Ireland? In Cork. Yeah. That's the one place I haven't been. Oh, man.

That's the place? That's the best county. Really? I have to say that. No, it's beautiful. Cork and Kerry are my kind of

favorite parts of Ireland. I was in Dublin and then I drove over to Galway and then we were up in Donegal. Oh, yeah,

beautiful. That's where we would spend most of the time. Yeah. That's stunning up there. Yeah. Not much up there. No,

which is kind of what makes it so attractive. But when you drive into towns, you're like, what happened here? But I don't know if that's the right response, but it did seem a little isolated

in some places. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. But so what, how does it go? Like, do you, do you have brothers and sisters? I'm the eldest of four.

Four? Yes. And are any of them artists? No, my, my, not professionally. My brother is an excellent pianist, jazz. Oh yeah? Pianist, yeah. He can do it?

He's really, really good. Yeah. And we used to play in the band with me when we were, when we were kids. What was that band's called? We were called the Sons of Mr. Green. Oh, there you go. Yeah. Could you play Zappa?

Man, it's hard to play Zappa. Yeah, I'll say. No, we were fans. Yeah. Not of the totally avant-garde stuff, more of the kind of like hot rats. The fun stuff. Yeah, that stuff. Yeah, yeah.

So he stuck with it. No, he's now a product designer. Oh, but he can play piano. Yeah, he's really, really good at the piano. So there was lots of books around. There was, you know, we would go to a lot of music, like traditional Irish music. Oh, yeah.

A lot of sessions in pubs, that kind of thing. Those would seem exciting. I don't know a lot about him other than the Banshees of Innishere. That seemed to small pub version. Like there's 12 people in the town. Exactly. No, no. The sort of sessions I would go to would be a pub in the city and you'd fall asleep under the bench,

you know, and then you'd be taken. But they were great, great, great, great music. So, but in terms of like creativity, if that's what you're asking,

it was around and I was always from a young age I was interested young age, I was interested in story. I was interested in music and I was interested later on in film. Yeah. But so it starts with, with story. Yeah. I love, I love stories.

Yeah. Like, like what? You're a big reader. Yeah. I love to read novels mostly. Yeah. Like Irish ones. From anywhere.

But do you remember like which one was sort of like, holy shit, this is fucking amazing. In terms of Irish novels? Just in terms of any novel that might have blown your mind. There's a few, like there's a writer in Ireland called John McGaheran who's a stunning writer and there's a writer called John Banfield.

There's a writer called Claire Keegan. These are like, you know, stories that I discovered and I've always just been fascinated by story. there's a writer called Claire Keegan these are like you know stories that I discovered and I've always just been fascinated by story what do you think it is about

well I mean story is one thing but there's something like you know maybe I'm romanticizing it maybe I'm reading into it but there seems to be something obviously heavy hearted about

Irish the Irish arts other than the music kind of but the stories and the plays. And there's just something about, I don't know, man. I just get this feeling that it's not darkness,

but it's sort of like... Melancholy? Yeah, or an acceptance of the darkness. Yeah. Is that sort of the type of books those were? Perhaps, yeah. That's always the stuff that I've been interested in. You know, that's always the kind of story

I've been interested in is that kind of naughty, Gordian, weird, kind of, like, fucked up part of our human psyche.

Right. That's always the stuff I've been interested in. Yeah. You know. It kind of builds your brain. Well, I think that's the most,

it's the stuff that's ripe for drama. Yeah. You know, a good man's life is, I think that's the most, it's the stuff that's ripe for drama. Yeah. You know, a good man's life is probably quite boring, whereas the other, you know, it's not the most interesting story. If it even exists. Well, for sure. Yeah. I think a lot of those stories start out with a good man's life, and then we find out, oh, that guy's not so good.

No, it's interesting. Yeah, exactly. So, but do you start start, were you like writing? Was the idea like what kind of, did you grow up Catholic? Yeah. But not too hardcore? No. And then kind of abandoned this one as soon as I could, you know?

Yeah, a lot of people do. Yeah. What was your moment where you're like, I don't really know. Yeah. It was slow. It was gradual. Yeah. I mean, it was just everywhere in Ireland.

You know, you just did. You went to mass and you got to your communion. You got your confirmation. You did all of that. You went to, I was taught by brothers. It was just everywhere. Yeah. But then, you know, as you start to examine things a bit more closely, you begin to question things.

Yeah. And I imagine the stories helped with that. For sure. Yeah. That's always the good part about being a sort of sensitive, interested young person is that you start to realize like, no, this is bullshit. Yeah. Well, that's one of the great things about adolescence, isn't it? Yeah, kind of. this is bullshit. Yeah. Well, that's one of the great things about, you know, adolescence, isn't it? Yeah.

Kind of. Yeah. That's when, you know, the, the fuck you eventually, you know, sort of starts to settle in.

Yeah. Yeah. Did you have that in you? Fuck you. Um, yeah, but in a very, like I was in school,

I would get, I would like get thrown out of class, but it was never malicious. So it was just a kind of a, like a, you weren't, you weren't an outlaw. No,

not really. No, no, but i was always interested in kind of i was always curious about artists yeah because i never encountered them you know i never met any and and the idea of somebody making a living from making art of whatever form i thought was incredibly romantic yeah and i and they seemed very alien to me and i grew up in the 80s in Ireland, so, like, you too were doing it, right? Sure. There was, like,

Jim Sheridan and Neil Jordan and there was a few. But generally, it was hard to make a living. Sure. You know, you talk about the theatre

scene now in Ireland and it's vibrant. Yeah. But back in the 80s and stuff like that, it was very hard to get stuff put on. Was Tommy Tiernan around?

Tommy Tiernan, yeah, he's been around. I heard your podcast with Tommy. That was excellent. The philosopher. Yeah. You guys had a good old chinwag. Yeah, well, you know, comics.

But you remember him from when you were a kid? Yeah, yeah. He was famously on the Late Late Show. Yeah, he was full of the fuck you. That was his brand for a while. Yeah. But now he's sort of the wise old. That was his brand for a while. Yeah. But now he's sort of the wise old man. It's very thoughtful, yeah.

Yeah, yeah. It's interesting to see somebody evolve like that. Yeah, he's a good actor, too. He is a good actor, yeah. All right, so you start to realize, like, well, some people make a living, but not most. Exactly. Or else you just go away. You know, like people like Liam Neeson or, you know, Gabriel Byrne.

You just go away. Yeah. And then it works out? Was there a part of your brain that's like, oh, I have to leave for this to work out? That's a kind of very common Irish narrative. Oh, yeah? Like I went to London for 14 years and then come back. And, you know, that seems to be very common.

Yeah. To go away and then to come, to come home. Well, I guess that's the nature of a small country and a small scene is that, you know, you, you have a choice. Like, are you going to roll the dice and become part of the big scene? Yeah. Try to, or are you just going to settle for your place? Yeah. That you've worked for in the small scene.

Yeah. And I guess that's a universal thing in small towns. Sure. Small cities, yeah. Yeah, so So when did you start acting officially? When I was 20. 20? Yeah. What do you mark as the first, as the beginning? When you got paid or when you got a real role? I mean,

did you do it when you were a kid? I did a year of a law degree which was a terrible decision, and I failed, like, spectacularly. What made you want to do that, or what made you think you wanted to do that? It was kind of parental pressure.

Oh, right, sure, sure. And just me not quite figuring out my path or whatever. But, so, and then I did a few plays in college, like, you know, amateur drama stuff. And then I, there was this theater company that were in Cork City at the time. And they did a production of Clockwork Orange in this nightclub in Cork City.

And it was fucking unbelievable. It was, it was, it was promenade. Yeah. And like, there was techno music and all the, all the actors had like mohawks. Yeah. All the droogs were like, it was fucking, and all the, yeah. Um, all the actors had like Mohawk, Mohawks. Yeah. All the droogs were like, it was fucking blew my mind.

Right. Absolutely blew my mind. So I then used to, I knew the guys around the theater company and I used to kind of see them around in pubs and cork and I would pester them. And eventually I got an audition for a play and I did the audition and I got the part. Yeah. And that was a play called Disco Pigs. Yeah. And that, so we toured that for a play and I did the audition and I got the part. Yeah. And that was a play called Disco Pigs.

Yeah. And that, so we toured that for a long time. Yeah. And then eventually they made that into a movie. So that's how it started.

So, coming at it though, that's when, you were what, 19 or something? I was like 19, 20, yeah. That, so it wasn't,

was it a huge production or just a weird local production? No, it was tiny. It was only two of us. It was me and Eileen Walsh, my good pal. And we, and it was directed by Pat Kiernan. It was written by Enda Walsh, who's still my good pal. Oh, this is Disco Pig.

Correct. Yeah. But the Clockwork Orange thing. Oh, that one. That was, it was this, it was just in the, it was like site specific. So they only put it on in that nightclub. So it was kind of this avant-garde kind of thing. Yeah.

And it was like a, like a happening, like of thing. Yeah. And it was like a happening, like an event. Totally. And it was fucking dangerous, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was dangerous and sexy, and I was just knocked out. Because I'd never been to the traditional theater. Sure. Do you know?

But what a great experience to have. Yeah. Like, I saw a production of Sam Shepard's Tooth of Crime. Oh, cool. That was put on by a guy that I worked at the restaurant with in high school. And it was crazy. I didn't even know what the fuck I was watching. And you're like, oh my God, I don't know if I understand this, but I want to be

part of this somehow. Yeah, exactly. That's exactly what I felt. And so Disco Pigs, that was also a small production? It started as a very small production, and then it toured. We brought it to the production and then it toured we brought it to like the Dublin Theatre Festival

and then we brought it to the Edinburgh Festival in London and what's that about the play yeah it's about these

two teenagers that are like not related but brought up side by side and they develop

this kind of patois this language together that nobody else can understand and then the relationship gets very, very heavy and very intense

and then my character wants to, you know, take it to the next level and make it sexual and the other character doesn't and it's kind of about the fracture of the relationship.

Oh, yeah. So it was very contained, very powerful, brilliantly written and it kind of exploded at the plate. What year was that 96 and how why do you think it exploded what was it speaking to I think it was the language it was

the writing yeah and it was a brilliant production and a great soundtrack and these were all you people around your age the director and the writer yeah your co-star? Yeah. So you didn't really study acting? No. No, but theater for me was... No, no, I'm not laughing at you. I love hearing that. I know. It felt to me that once I started on the stage,

that was university. Right. I was learning all the time. And when you do a play, you do it endlessly, relentlessly. We did that play for 18 months nonstop and toured it all over the place. So you're being directed. You're working with other actors. People are chiming in, and you're open-minded enough to take it in.

Yeah, man. But it felt, for me, it was like a surrogate band. You know, it felt like I was kind of going on tour, except not with the band, but with these other pals of mine. And we were like doing the play late at night and going out drinking and having a great time at festivals. So I was having the same experience

that I would have had in the band that had just collapsed. Yeah, except you didn't have to be like, you know, you missed that drum solo. You didn't have to yell at your peers about fucked up notes. Yeah. But how close with the band did you get to, like, being a band?

Oh, we were offered a record deal, but then my, like, our various parents intervened. Because you were kids? Well, I was of age, but my brother was only 16 or something. And then a few of the other parents didn't approve. And it was a shitty deal. It wouldn't have worked out. What kind of music was it? It was kind of, you know, we were influenced by Zappa and acid jazz. Do you remember that acid jazz? Sure. But we were a bit late to the scene. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

But it was like long guitar solos and kind of, you know. You were doing the solo? No, I played rhythm guitar. We had an amazing guitar player. You know, it wasn't commercial. It didn't also, it didn't record very well. Do you know what I mean? Yeah, sure.

It was good live, but it didn't work in a studio very well. Yeah, yeah. So, So it just kind of broke apart for a lot of different reasons. Exactly.

Yeah. So, okay, so you toured Disco Pig for what, a year? More? Yeah, around 18 months, yeah.

And then you're in. You're like, this is it. This is the life for me. I think so, yeah. But then I got an agent, you know, through that. But then I had a year. In Ireland or where? In Ireland.

Yeah. Then I had a year just on the dole, you know, just at home, like, making sandwiches. After Disco Pig? Yeah, watching the telly. So how did that go for you? What was the reflection? What were you being sent out for by your agent in,

where were you still, in Cork? Oh, man. Yeah, but I was the, I was the shittest auditioner. Like, I was so bad. Yeah. Yeah, that's why

I never took up acting. But it's awful, isn't it? The worst. I mean. But I can't imagine what you were going out for, you know, in, locally. Were you being sent for commercials? It was, no, I was in Dublin. Yeah, commercials I can't imagine what you were going out for, you know, in locally. Were you being sent

for commercials? It was, no, I was in Dublin. Yeah, commercials are like. Oh, you went to Dublin.

Yeah. Okay. But I was so bad in a room. I felt so insecure and sort of embarrassed by the whole, you know,

atmosphere. totally. Because you walk in, there's 10 guys sort of all jacked up, ready to do the exact same thing you're going to do. Yeah, totally. Because you walk in, there's 10 guys sort of all jacked up, ready to do the exact same thing you're going to do. Yeah, yeah.

And I was just full of kind of, I don't know, insecurity. So I just, I was terrible. Yeah. But eventually, you get one job.

Yeah. And what was that? It was more theater, just more theater, yeah. Oh, so that, but that's good? Yeah. Right? Yeah, great. I'd worked with this company in Galway, just more theater, yeah. Oh, so that, but that's good? Yeah. Right?

Yeah, great. I'd worked with this company in Galway, actually drew a theater company. Yeah. Did a few plays with them, and again was learning, watching great actors, watching great directors, and... What happened to the movie of Disco Pig?

We did that about four years after the play. And was that, that wasn't your first movie? No, I'd done little bits, little parts, but that was a kind of first big kind of lead, I think. Yeah. And how, and how was that experience? Oh, I loved it. Yeah, you did.

Yeah, I loved it. Yeah. And did the movie get any, uh, did it get any traction? It did well. Yeah. I went to festivals and it was small, but I think it got a good response. Was there anything happening to you personally in terms of how you were experiencing this as an art or that the things that you were doing,

was it transforming you into something as you got confident? Did you start to enjoy it more in a different way? Yeah, I loved being on stage. Strangely, I've never felt nervous going on stage. Really? I felt really nervous on film. I've never, I've always felt nervous going on stage where I felt really nervous on film. I've never, I've always. Why do you think that is?

Because in whatever warped logic I had in my brain was that you go on stage and if you don't have a very good show, you can just fix it tomorrow. The next day. Yeah. And even if the show isn't going well, you can, you can help it along and you can you know you can just you know get it back but yeah whereas if you if you're terrible on film you're terrible forever and i was so i was it found it really unnatural and then the you know the when they would say action and everything would stop yeah and like all these electricians and construction guys sure like everyone would just pause and stop and everything's focused on you yeah so when i was young i found that everything would stop. Yeah. And like all these electricians and construction guys, everyone would just

pause and stop and everything was focused on you. Yeah. So when I was young, I found that horrifying. Sure. Yeah, but there's

always the option as you get older, you realize that some directors are like, can we do that? Yeah. And they're going, sure.

I find that to be, you know, kind of unsatisfying. What? The stopping and starting. Yes. With film and television. You know, because you can't really get a role going.

You know, you realize you're like, oh, this is all going to be put together later. You're shooting at a sequence. All you can focus on is, you know, showing up for the moment that you're shooting. Yeah. And sometimes you're literally shooting like, you know, three minutes in a day. Yeah. And it's hard to contextualize it. Yeah.

So I'm yet to, personally, to find it totally rewarding. Yeah. You know, in those moments. Yeah, I think it can be, but you really have to, I don't know, you have to be really working with good people. Sure. I think that's what it is. People that really push you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I find that once you kind of accept that you're just given the raw materials, you're just handing it over, and then they're going to make it into something. Yeah. Right. You know that. Yeah. Was this play The Wind That Shakes the Barrel? No, that was a movie.

That was a movie. Yeah. Well, what was that? Because that sounded pretty provocative. I didn't see it. That was a film directed by Ken Loach, and it was set in Cork. Yeah. And it was about the War of Independence and the Civil War in Ireland.

Right. So was that the first time you had to do something that was that connected to the history? Yeah. But what was that like? Amazing. I mean, he's one of my heroes, Ken Loach. Great director, yeah. Unbelievable.

In fact, making that film kind of profoundly changed the way I approach working on film because he shoots everything chronologically. Oh, God. That's what a gift that is. Isn't it? I mean, every film should be made like that. Totally. Obviously, we can't.

That's the hardest part about being an actor, I think, is like, we're going to shoot the last scene first because we have to for the whatever

and you're like, what? I don't even know how this is going to go. Yeah, or I find, inevitably, they shoot the love scene

on the first day. Oh my God, it's so uncomfortable. It's so awkward. But that movie, what was it about Loach other than that that changed the way you sort of... Because he, and I think I talked about this at the beginning, because it's not intellectual, it's instinctual. So because there's no script, you haven't been poring over it and making notes on it and making your pretentious choices.

You just come in and sometimes stuff was happening for real that I wasn't aware of. Yeah. And so you're just reacting completely spontaneously. Yeah. And completely truthfully. Right. And you're not making a choice. Right.

Do you know? Right. And I love that. Right. But you do make choices at some point. At some point you do. Yeah. But when you feel that spontaneous, just your body reacting to something, that's what you want to chase down, I think, in film acting.

But did it all sort of, like, fall into place for you in the sense that, like, you know, you're talking about the history of your country. Yeah. And there's still a tension. Like, did it connect you to, you know, something deeper? Yeah, I think so. Like, did it connect you to, you know, something deeper? Yeah, I think so. Yeah, because I found out lots of stuff about my family that they had been involved in the struggle, like, way back that I wasn't aware of.

Like what? Oh, lots of little stories, you know, about cousins on my mother's side, I think. It just, it had a big impact. How did you find those stories out? I found them out like years later after I'd done the movie. So people were telling you, like the family was telling you, like, I don't know if you knew this kind of stuff? Exactly, yeah. Wow. But also, the thing with that movie, you know, civil wars are traumatic.

And the Civil War in Ireland, like, the movie came out, I don't know when the movie came out. But up until that point, there were still a lot of people that didn't talk. It's split families, you know, uh, and a lot of people went to see that movie. Yeah. And,

but kind of interestingly, it was made by an Englishman. Yeah. You know, so he had a different perspective on it. Right. Um, and,

uh, I'm very proud of that movie actually. Yeah. I mean, and that way, but you'd already been acting a long time by the time you did that. I suppose. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. What do you, what would you consider the, your break was by the time you did that. I suppose, yeah. Yeah. What would you consider your break was? Was it 28 days later? I suppose so, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, the non-zombie guy. Yeah.

That movie was pretty huge. Yeah, well, it kind of reinvented the zombie genre, didn't it? Well, I didn't realize that. I think, didn't it introduce us to the idea of the fast zombie? Yes. Yeah. I think, was't it introduce us to the idea of the fast zombie? Yes. Yeah. I think, was that the first movie where they actually ran? Yeah, yeah.

It was sort of like that. That made me realize, all right, now we're dealing with two types of zombies. Yeah. The ones that you can't outrun, and then the ones that you can kind of poke fun at as you run away. Yeah. Yeah. And also, it was a rage virus. Do you remember?

That was what was so distinctive about it and quite clever. Yeah. And when you decide to do movies, like, what are you deciding? Like, how do you decide? Just on the script or? Oh, well, it's a, oh, God. I don't know. I never know how to answer this question.

I'm sorry. I asked the same question. No, but, you know, so I was reading somewhere that Robert Mitchell looks at it and he goes, location and how many days off. Yeah. And then, you know, I mean, some people look at it like that. I wish I could be like that.

No, I wanted to, this is the cliched answer, you know, I want to challenge myself and work with great people. Sure. But that is kind of the truth. It never plays into it.

It's like, where is it and how long? I mean, I wish I could be like that. You know, you're in Malta. You've got two weeks off. Well, not even the time off, but sometimes it's sort of like, this is going to take a year. Yeah. I don't work at movies that take a year. I've never worked on a movie that's taken a year. How long did Oppenheimer take? We made that movie unbelievably quickly. We made it in like

57 days or something. Come on. Yeah. It was insane. The pace of that was insane. Post-COVID? Yeah, yeah. So you really knocked it out because like, yeah, I'm trying to remember when I saw you on that plane. How did you begin? How did your relationship with Nolan begin? So that was like 20 years ago. I think he'd seen 28 Days Later, actually. 28 days later, actually.

Okay. And then we met up here in L.A. and he, for some reason, wanted me to screen test for Batman, which I think I knew and he knew I was wrong for, but I did the test and then he saw something in that and cast me as the Scarecrow

and then we continued on making movies. You knew it was wrong? I don't think I'm quite the physical specimen to play Bruce Wayne. Yeah, but I mean, like, you know, like, Bale, he's no monster. He's no giant. Yeah, but, man, he transformed himself into that role, and he's done many, many times.

I think he defined that role as Batman. I wonder. You know, like, he's your Batman. Well, obviously, he was your Batman. Yeah. But in all the Batmans? Who do you like? Oddly, there's something about the way Michael Keaton did it that I really liked.

Loved those Batmans, yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Because, like, he was like a bat. You know, he was doing this thing with his eyes. You know, like that. It was something. He made this very defined choice.

Yeah, he did. I love those movies, yeah. I like the way Val Kilmer looked, but I didn't love his Batman. I actually tried on the Val Kilmer suit in the test. Oh, really? It was quite roomy. It was, it's a fucking operation getting into those things. So they have all the suits there?

Like, you were with Nolan, you're like, which, which Batman do you want to? I think the Kilmer one was the one that everyone was trying on. Okay. Yeah, but they have special guys that are just there.

They're just Batman suit guys? Yes. So now, do you put on the suit and then look at yourself and be like, what are we doing here?

Exactly, yeah. Like a kid that, it doesn't fit. It doesn't fit. No, it didn't. It wasn't right. It wasn't right. No, it didn't. It wasn't right. It wasn't right. Yeah.

But all I was there, I was just, imagine this. I'm getting to try on a suit, a Batman suit, on the Warner's lot. Sure. Do a screen test for Kristoff. That's all my expectations were at that time. And that was your first experience with him? Yeah. And then you get the other role, the bad guy role.

Yeah, Scarecrow, yeah. And you kind of own that thing. That was fun, yeah. Yeah. And what's it like hanging around with Bale? We didn't have that many scenes together. We didn't cross paths that many times. Isn't that weird?

People don't realize that on movie sets. It's like, I just did a movie with Jude Law. Didn't see him once. Never saw the guy. But you can still say that you did a movie with Jude Law. Yeah, well, he was producing it. And he's the main guy. I only had two scenes, but like, didn't stop by to say hi.

It happens all the time. I know. Like, yeah, you just, but Jesus Oppenheimer, that was a huge cast. Oh, man. You saw, everybody's in that movie. I know. It's an incredible, I have to say. I imagine at this point in your career, after wanting to work with great people,

that thing was like they were all there. I know. And it was unbelievable. You had scenes with all of them. And I kind of forget sometimes when I check the call sheet. Shit, it's Gary Oldman's in Tomorrow or Ken Branagh. And, you know, it was. That's crazy how many people.

I didn't even know Tom Conti was still alive. Tom Conti is so brilliant in it yeah so brilliant in it Downey's great good to see Downey in like a role that he could sort of

sink his teeth into he's electric in that role I think so the relationship with with Nolan is like six movies long now

yep yeah I mean what have you learned from that guy how does he work I think he's kind of like I think he might be the perfect director. You know, he's got all of the facets that you need in the perfect director. He's amazing with actors. He's incredibly brilliant visually. He writes the things himself and they're made for the theaters. You know, they are like

event movies, but they challenge you. You know, I love the way he presupposes a level of intelligence in the audience. Yeah, it doesn't happen often. No, and he knows the audience aren't dummies. And he knows the audience can keep up. And he knows the audience wants to be provoked and challenged. And I love working with him. And he really pushes it.

You know, he expects the best from you and he's rigorous at everything and demanding. The sets are huge too. I mean, the sets are huge. But here's the weird thing. The sets are huge, but it feels like being on an independent movie. There's just Chris and the cameraman, one camera always, unless there's some huge, huge set piece. And the boom, op, and that's it. And there's no

video village, there's no monitors, there's nothing. Oh really? Yeah. He hasn't used any of that? None of that.

I mean he's a very kind of analog filmmaker. Interesting. You know? Even on Dunkirk? Mm-hmm. Man.

Yeah. And I didn't see a frame of this movie until I saw the first teaser. Of Oppenheimer? Yeah. I hadn't seen anything

and I've never seen anything on Chris's films until I see the or the trailer or the finished thing really yeah

and he rarely does ADR I've done six movies with him I think I've done like four lines of ADR no shit yeah cause he records sound really well and he

and uh he he believes in production you know production sound and and he creates an environment for the actors there's no green screen

there's no green screen. There's no, none of that. I found it to be so, like, the guy, there was, you know, it was a press screening, so it wasn't packed. It wasn't a premiere or anything. But whoever was running it was like, all right, this is a 70 millimeter print on film the way Chris wanted you to see it. Exactly.

And I felt like it does make a difference. I think it does. And I was highly aware of it for some reason in that movie. I know there's other movies that are shot like that. I mean, Tarantino shoots like that. But because you're in IMAX, you know, it's like, you know, it's different. The effect is different. I mean, Chris says it's kind of like 3D without being 3D. I guess.

To me, it just reminds me of like like, movies, theaters when I was a kid. Just a big old screen, you know, where you feel like you're really at an event. Yeah. But, like, the opportunity. And, like, for me, like, as, look, I did one scene with De Niro in passing in Joker. You know, and I'm sure he has no recollection of me. It didn't matter. I was, you know, just I'm sure he has no recollection of me. It didn't matter. I was, you know, just whatever it was.

But, you know, there is that awareness. And I imagine even though you've done, you know, dozens of movies at this point, there's awareness. Yeah, these are just people. And certainly, you know, that actors are painfully people. Yes, they do. But you're aware that sort of like, all right, you know, game on. I'm sitting here with Casey Affleck.

And we got to do this thing. And like, I always like you know, game on. I'm sitting here with Casey Affleck and we got to do this thing. Yeah. And like, I always like seeing that guy. Yeah, man. He's so good in the movie. That was great. That was a, that was a big scene. Yeah.

Yeah. And he came in and he was ready to go. And it was again, like, again, all these stupid kind of analogies, but it does raise your game. It does make you better when you're working with the best actors. It does. It does do that and

it's true and this was a perfect case in point like you have these some of my favourite actors in the world because they all want to work with Chris

so they all come in and they play these parts and the other thing about the movie I think is because you've got a lot of movie stars in it but every time every character they play

they're very significant characters so it doesn't feel like cameos if you know what I mean because they're all playing these real life characters who had a big impact on the world. And also, I didn't feel the movie stardness of anybody. Yeah. And that's sort of a miracle. But it's just so interesting that you had to carry this movie in this character that operates at a level, right? Like, you know, you definitely have, you're holding on to this stuff that you're talking about.

And his affectation is what it is, which doesn't, you know, he is who he is all the way through. And then you just, all of a sudden, these other actors, like, you got to deal with Downey, steps into this scene. And I just, I imagine that you're just holding on to the character you've built in certain moments. You have to be aware of that. Yeah.

Like you're sort of like, all right, just stay focused. Yeah, of course. But it was a joy, man. It was a joy working with these actors. Yeah. Like I really felt I'll probably never get a chance to work with an ensemble of actors like that again. Oh, my God. It'll probably never happen.

So I just, I enjoyed every minute of it. And again, you know, we talked about, like, learning. You look at all those amazing actors. You work with all those amazing actors. You're always learning. You're always figuring stuff out as an actor. And this was, like, just special. And how about, like, the Peaky Blinders?

Like, that's been on, like, that's, like, a long-running show now. I think, yeah. Well, I mean, the TV version is Like that's been on, like that's like a long running show now. I think, yeah. Well, I mean, the TV version is over. Yeah. But it was like six seasons.

Six seasons. Yeah. Oh, there's a movie happening. There's talk of a movie. Yeah. Yeah. And,

but, but that experience has got to be like, almost like a family. Yes, it was. Yeah. Like a really violent, aggressive family.

But did you like building a mobster? Yeah. Well, I've never had a chance to like play a character and age with a character. And so I played him, like I started playing him

when I was 35 and I finished playing him when I was 45. Wild. It was kind of nuts. That's crazy. And I mean, the reason why that movie

succeeded again, I think, our TV show is, is because it's just excellent writing. Yeah. Excellent writing. There's some good writing sometimes. Yeah.

Yeah. So what happens now, though? Do you immediately start working again? I love not working. Well, that's part of the, isn't that part of why you got into it? Yeah. But I know some actors just have to work all the time and i really enjoy family right i do yeah what do you do with the family like did they come to new mexico and they didn't come to

new mexico they came to la when we were in la yeah but again you know when you when you're working like that it's not a great environment you're just coming home you're exhausted you go to bed you want to stay focused you don't want to talk about the work. You know what I mean? And it's not ideal. Yeah. But we had some fun. But no, I just love doing very boring things. Me too. I can spend a day just trying to figure out what I'm going to eat. Yes. I love doing that, man.

Me too. It's the best day. You get up and you're like, I'm going to go buy some stuff. And I'm going to see if I can make this thing. And then I'm going to eat it in 45 seconds And I'm going to see if I can make this thing. And then I'm going to eat it in 45 seconds. I'm going to spend the entire day making something. I do the exact same thing. And I'll timetable it.

So I'll go, all right, it's going to take me that long to get to the shop. By the time I get back, then I might have a bath. Yeah. And then I'll make some food. For me, like a day is a full day's work just to enjoy my life. Yeah. But I like it. Isn't that, but that's excellent.

I mean. I think so. I'm trying to frame it properly. Oh. Like, because there's still part of me that's sort of like, what are you doing, man? You got nothing to do? I know. Yeah.

And then, like, if you're not careful, you start making phone calls. Like, what do we got going? Yeah. You know? And can you, like, because when I came in here, you were just, like, sitting outside. Yeah. And then like, if you're not careful, you start making phone calls. Like, what do we got going? Yeah. You know? And can you like, because when I came in here, you were just like sitting outside. Yeah.

You weren't on your phone there or anything? You were just. No, not, well, I just watched a King Crimson video for some reason. I am a little, I have a phone problem.

I think I watched that. Do you watch that Black Mirror? The new season? Yeah. I watched some of them. Yeah. Did you watch that one, the Smithereens one with Andrew Scott?

You know that guy? I watched that, yeah. Do you know that guy? I've worked on Andrew, love him, yeah. Holy shit. He's some of them, yeah. Did you watch that one, the Smithereens one with Andrew Scott? You know that guy? Do you know that guy? I've worked on Andrew, love him, yeah. Holy shit. He's a good actor, man. Right? Yeah. Well, you should watch that one.

It's going to make you think about your cell phone differently. Did you watch Locke Henry? Did you watch that? Yeah. That's good. Yeah. That was crazy. That scared me.

Well, there's one. You never knew who you're talking to, right? But the ones that are just horror, like I don't love horror, but the ones that are very close to the bone sci-fi where it's sort of like, oh, that's kind of happening. Well, yeah. I can kind of dig that.

The Locke Henry felt like a horror movie. It did, but I thought it was accidentally done. Oh, sure. They're all kind of like amazingly written. But like, so what else do you do to fill your day? I can tell you how I do mine. Do you exercise?

I do. I like to run, play the guitar, you know, read books. Yeah, I play guitar, yeah. Yeah, so. I need to read more books. Yeah.

Can you sit there? That's the one thing I have a hard time doing. Oh, the phone has wrecked everything. Man, the phone has wrecked everything. Sure.

I used to sit down and I would, you know, read a book. For like three hours? Do you know what I to sit down and I would, you know, read a book. For like three hours? Do you know what I did on the way over here, though? I read a full book on the plane on the way over. What book? I read Sam Neill's autobiography.

Oh, yeah? And you just work with him, right? Well, I worked with him for years. Yeah, many years ago. And it's just a gorgeous, funny, delicious book. And it's kind of full of gossip. And it's just gorgeous. Yeah, I've talked to him.

He's a character. Was he on the show? Yeah. Oh, man, he's one of my favorite people in the business. Yeah, he's a riot. Yeah. Yeah.

Fucking phenomenal actor, too. Yeah, he's just one of those guys who's like surprisingly like has a wit and kind of like an endearing cynicism. Yes, he does. You know, that's almost surprising.

Same with Hugh Grant. I talked to Hugh Grant and I was like, oh, my God, this guy's fucking hilarious. Have you ever talked to that guy? I've never met him, no. Oh, my God. Like Hugh Grant, now where he's like zero fuck guy. Yeah. He's just so funny.

It must be so liberating. Oh, yeah. I think that if you make it through all the hoops and you're okay and you're unscathed and you know where you're at and you can kind of be like, I'm done with whatever you're expecting. Yeah. And you just punch through it all. Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

And he took some hits. Yeah. But he's all right. Yeah. You cook too? Yeah, I do. But like, I mean, I have a limited repertoire, but I cook, yeah. What do you cook?

What's your favorite thing? Do you take risks? Not really, no. Not really. You know the way if you make one thing well, you just keep making that. Of course. Especially if it's like healthy and you can eat it all the time. Yeah, I do that.

I've been vegan lately. So I've been trying the vegan thing as well. How's that going? I miss cheese. Oh, cheese is the one you miss. Yeah? What about you? I was never a big cheese guy, and I'm not finding that I miss meat so much.

And I kind of like the vegan thing because you need to sort of figure out a bunch of variety. I think you have a better shot at variety than you would if you were just eating meat and potatoes. Yeah, for sure. Because there's all different things you can eat. But I start to worry. I'm like, am I getting enough of this thing? Am I eating too much of that thing?

What about vitamins? I don't know how our brains got so fucked up about the food pyramid and the meat paradigm. You know, sort of like this idea that we need the meat. But I'm not missing it. I don't miss the meat. No, I've been off the meat for a long time. I did have a kind of a relapse, and I didn't feel any better.

So I'm back off it again. Oh, on meat? Yeah. What'd you relapse on? Venison. Oh yeah? Yeah. Huh.

Well, at least it was sort of an exotic meat. Yeah, it was very nice. But yeah, no, I don't eat it anymore. Yeah. Ethical reasons? Health reasons?

Both. Now, at the beginning it was just like, it's, there was loads of mad cow disease and all that stuff happening. Remember? Yeah. At the beginning it was just like, it's, there was loads of mad cow disease and all that stuff happening. Remember? Yeah.

That's some of the catering. It was all fucking in, it was in England. Yeah, it was a bad scene, man. So I don't, I just don't do it now.

I think it's just better for the planet, right? Of course. You know, and if you're an animal person, you got animals? I got a cat and a dog, yeah.

And you live in Ireland? Yeah. On a farm? No, no, no, no, yeah. And you live in Ireland? Yeah. On a farm? No, no, no. By the sea, but not on a farm. So you can just walk to the ocean? Yes. That's fucking nice. But I don't swim. So where in Ireland

would you move if you're going to move? Dude, it's so vague. It's also very expensive there. Is it? Yeah. Isn't it expensive relatively everywhere? I suppose, but in Ireland we've got a problem with housing and everything. But would you tell me where would you like to move and I can make some calls? Well, I know a couple people there. I need to get down to that area like Kerry and Cork.

The West Coast? Yeah. Dublin's okay. But that was the other thing I start to wonder about my fantasies. It's just sort of like, I feel like there's a sense of impending doom here that, you know, that you can't sort of escape psychologically. You know, I'm not immediately concerned that I'm going to be put on a train, but, but there is something psychically happening that's, I feel go away almost immediately when I go anywhere. Yeah. Um, but I've spent a lot, I spent a bit of time in Dublin, and I drove around. I just find it all to be beautiful, but I don't know.

I couldn't really tell you where, and I'm not even sure what I would do there. It's always a question of, you know, what do you do this second week? You've made the jump. And then people start telling you, like, if you want to go, just go. Rent the place. Try it out. Spend a month. That's a good idea.

And see what happens. Try it out. Spend a month. That's a good idea. And see what happens. Try it out. I would go in the summertime. Yeah. You know, you might get a bit sad with all the rain and all of that. No, no, I don't mind that. You don't mind that? No.

Well, then go in the wintertime. There'll be less people around. In the winter. Yeah. But go to Cork? The West Coast, they call it the Atlantic Coast. It's absolutely stunning. I would highly recommend it.

It's so funny because I believe that Irish people are generally pretty down to earth and pretty decent people. I don't know morally or anything else, but my feeling for them is that there's not this menace to them. No, Irish people are pretty laid back in general. It's so funny, though, because, and I've told this, I've made this observation before, because I spent years in Boston, you know, doing comedy and going to school and everything else. And I really had a, I was very nervous

around the Boston Irish because they were scary. You know, I'm generalizing, but there was, you know, tough fucking Irish characters in Boston. And I'm sure as, you know, as you know, when they,

well, here's the thing though, like the first time I went to Ireland, you know, I saw all these Irish people and they look kind of the same. And so I was kind of terrified

at first. And then when they're all like, hey, I'm like, oh my God, they're totally different. What did America do to the Irish?

Hardened them up? I don't know. I don't know the answer to that. But do you know what I'm saying? It's interesting. It is interesting. I've never been to Boston, so. Really?

I can't offer an opinion. Yeah, weirdly, I've never been. That's right. That was sort of built by the Irish, that place. Yeah, yeah. Huh. Well, it was great talking to you. Great talking to you, Mark.

You feel good? Yeah, man. Thanks for coming, man. Of course. It was a pleasure. I love the show. Huh. Well, it was great talking to you. Great talking to you, Mark. You feel good? Yeah, man. Thanks for coming, man. Of course. It was a pleasure. I love the show. Thanks. I'm going to give you a one-of-a-kind mug.

Oh, man. It'll make it home because you're leaving tomorrow. All right, man. Thank you. That was Cillian Murphy in an interview recorded on june 27 hang out for a minute hi it's terry o'reilly host of under the influence recently we created an episode on cannabis marketing with cannabis legalization it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to

an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. This episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. It's a night for the whole family.

Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead courtesy of Backley Construction. Punch your ticket to Kids Night on Saturday, March 9th at 5 p.m. in Rock City at torontorock.com. So folks, you'll be hearing a lot from SAG-AFTRA President Fran Drescher in the coming days and weeks, but if you're interested in hearing more about her life becoming the union president, you can hear my 2020 interview with her right now in whatever podcast app you're using. I am relishing the fact that I'm finally at a place in my life where I'm happy to be alone.

Yeah. I find that I consider that major growth on my part. Look, man, if you're like a person that has had issues with boundaries or codependency or over caregiving, it just becomes like a relief at some point once you have a certain amount of self-acceptance to be like, I don't fucking need to deal with that shit. Exactly. Right? And I knew when I was getting better because people would, you know, I surrounded myself with, you know, basket cases. I needed to be needed. Right.

You were addicted to people. And now I don't have that need anymore. And when people would start telling me the problem, once I was able to realize that it was my way of avoiding my own problems by giving myself a full sense of being together. Like having my shit together. Being there for other people. Yeah. And once I was able to finally admit that I'm as fucked up as you are, I tell people, you know, all I can tell you is find yourself a really good shrink and lay on that couch. Yeah.

And, you know. Sure. Figure it out. Who are you? Yeah that couch and, you know. Sure. Figure it out. Who are you? Yeah. Go for the jugular. Yeah. Why are you fucked up?

What's happening? That's episode 1113 with Fran Drescher from 2020. We taped that right before COVID shut everything down. And you can listen to that now for free in all podcast apps. Now, here's a song. It's a deep, uh, a deep cut. You know it if you know it. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. boomer lives monkey and lafonda cat angels everywhere Boomer lives.

Monkey in La Fonda. Cat angels everywhere.