WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1454 - Michael Rowe

Episode Date: July 20, 2023

Michael Rowe and Marc knew each other decades ago from the comedy club scene, but Mike says there was a specific moment when standup left his body for good. He tells Marc how his love of joke writing gave him entry into the world of comedy and then gave him a fulfilling career as a writer that outlasted his time on stage. Mike recounts a life changing phone call from Rodney Dangerfield, his friendship with Andy Kaufman, his X-rated encounter with Milton Berle, and more. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Along with your favorite restaurant food, alcohol, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing.

With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative.

Lock the gates! All right, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuckologists? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron. This is my podcast. WTF. Welcome. Welcome to it. If there's any new people out there, how are you? Nice to have you. Thanks for coming by. All you regulars, as always, nice to talk to you.

On the show today, my friend, old friend, well, it's like, I guess we're friends, but in my community of comedians that spans almost 40 years now, I feel like I know almost all the guys I've met even for 10 minutes. But this guy I used to see all the time at the Comedy Cellar, his name is Michael Rowe. That's to differentiate him from Mike Rowe, the guy who does the weird dirty job show or whatever the hell he does. I've never seen it. But Michael Rowe, I knew him as a comic back in the day, back at the cellar in the late 80s, early 90s. He became an Emmy-winning writer and producer working on Futurama and Family Guy.

He's got a book out. And it just is sort of like I always got a kick out of him in a very specific way. And I wanted him to come on and talk about the book, tell some stories. Also, I should tell you that Stand Up Records just partnered with the Richard Pryor estate to release three deluxe double LPs of Richard's standup. These are amazing time capsules and sort of small comedy masterpieces. His self-titled Richard Pryor is one of the albums. His 1971 release, Craps After Hours, is another.

And Live at the Comedy Store, 1973, which has never been released on vinyl until now. This is at the peak of Richard doing Richard. 1973, he was the king of the comedy store. That place was sort of built on his back. And all three of these things have bonus tracks, gate place was, was sort of built on his back. And, uh, all three of these things have bonus tracks, gatefold covers, and exclusive color versions. Uh, you can order them at standuprecords.com. That's my buddy, Dan Schlissel's outfit. Uh, Dan Schlissel has released,

I guess, well, he recorded my second record, my third record. I believe that I think that's it, my second record, my third record. I believe that I think that's it, but he's also now, he also is the distributor of, of, I think at least four or five of my albums, but he definitely did Tickets Still Available and Final Engagement, just a document of angry heartbreak and complete existential despair. I can get behind that one. I can get behind all of them, actually. But I think that one is relatively timeless. I really try to make my records have a little life to them so they're not dated. But anyway, yeah, get all those. Go look at the catalog over there. He used to record Maria Bamford's records. I don't know what he's got up over there, but standuprecords.com for these brand new re-releases of a couple of Richard Pryor records and the first time ever on vinyl comedy store, 1973. So that's exciting,

especially for comedy nerds and record collectors alike. Dates. I've been doing the dynasty typewriter. I was there night before last and it's getting weird, but I'm there next week, Tuesday, July 25th. And at Largo on Thursday, July 27th, I'll be at the Salt Lake City Wise Guys on August 11th and 12th for four shows. I'm at Helium in St. Louis on September 14th through 16th for five shows. Then I'm at the Las Vegas Wise Guys on September 22nd and 23rd,

also four shows. And in October, I'm at Helium in Portland, Oregon on October 20th through 22nd. You can go to wtfpod.com for tickets. And Portland, you know, you can, I understand maybe I've said some things that you consider insensitive or not quite perceptive about the condition of your city. I'm open-minded. I love Portland. And the last couple of times I just got a little nervous and it seemed like there was some block to block issues. Like some blocks were good, some blocks not so good, but I guess not unlike a lot of places, but Portland's kind of small, kind of tight, but I'm certainly always willing to engage because I do love that part of the country. I'm not apologizing per se, but don't shut me out.

You know what I mean? I always enjoy performing there. So the strike. I think I'm going to go picket with some fellas and some ladies. Tim Heidecker reached out and said we should get out there on the picket line. I'm like, okay, I'm game. You know, I've certainly talked about it a bit, uh, but like, yeah, let's do it. So we're going to go out Friday.

But, uh, Heidecker was like, we got to get some, uh, we got to get some funny people out there. I'm like, okay. So on Friday morning, it's all I know is it's me and Heidecker and Peretti. I think Joe Mandy's in, we'll see. But, uh, I want to get out there and be part of the action, part of the action standing up for union strong stuff, for the points that are being negotiated or the points that are sticking or the points that need to be re-evaluated. There's a lot of them, but some of it has to do, obviously, with AI.

And a big part of it is the background actors being sort of, their souls being taken in the form of imaging and AI. And they just kind of get a flat rate. And then who they are on screen gets used for infinity. But here's the interesting thing about the union and why it matters. And this is a point that I didn't even know. Now, I imagine some of you have watched the horror of Dolores Roach. I finally watched the episode I'm in, and I know there's a couple other ones, but it's not all of me.

All of me. See, spoiler alert. Here's your spoiler alert about my episodes of The Horror of Dolores Roche. So if you want to jump off for a minute or two, do it. So in the show, I'm the first to be murdered in this Sweeney Todd homage and put into empanadas. Now, I get killed, but pieces of me are hanging in the meat locker, right? And they go into that meat locker. Now, in order for that to be effective and work, they had to put a body mold on me and they had to make these pieces of me, my head, I think maybe one of my arms. But the thing is, is we didn't even know this. And I remember

my manager, you know, calling me about it and him saying, look, man, he doesn't talk like that. He has an Australian accent, but he basically said, look, we're getting, we're getting, you know, paid for those pieces of you to appear on screen. Now, I don't think it was equivalent to a day's work, but there was a precedent set that if you're going to use the parts of me and they're identifiable, then I'm on screen and I deserve compensation, which is reasonable. But that had to be a contract point that somebody fought for. And now it's part of our compensation. our compensation and not unlike AI that, you know, anytime a piece of you appears, even if it's a apparition, you should be paid every time it's used. So there's a precedent. Look, man, I got paid for my head hanging in a meat locker because you could tell it was me, but that's why you need

union protection. So they can't say, fuck you. You're not really on screen. It's just your head. And we paid you already. No, no. I'm making an appearance as a head. So compensate me. But I thought that was interesting because it is definitely relative to why union protection is important. Okay, look, you guys.

Mike Rowe is here. Michael Rowe. I knew him as Mike. I'll call him Mike. He wrote a book a few years ago called It's a Funny Thing, How the Professional Comedy Business Made Me Fat and Bald. You can get that wherever you get books. And this was kind of fun to catch up with Mike because I really don't think I've sat down and talked to him since we were at the Comedy Cellar in the early 90s. You can get anything you need with Uber Eats. I sat down and talked to him since we were at the Comedy Cellar in the early 90s. by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new

challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talked to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative.

When did you write the book? Like two years ago. So it's been a while. Yeah. And did you self-publish it, or how does that work? No, no, I got a publisher. Yeah. You know, he's ripping me off, but that's fine.

You can't make money in books. No. I mean, what do you... Did you enjoy writing it? I had a blast yeah you know uh because a lot of things shake loose right yeah yeah and it's funny i like i had no control over it just came out of me i'm just going i'm just typing yeah typing i'll look up and like all sudden i type 20 pages like um so it was really cathartic yeah Yeah. But I thought of it in terms of like when I was a kid and I was like 17, 16, 17 and just loved stand-up. And I knew then I was going to do it.

Yeah. You know, and I'm living in this little city town in Connecticut. Yeah. And so I'm thinking about how can I do this? And I tried to imagine when I wrote this, imagine if there was a book like this available to me at that age, like following someone's journey. I even think it applies to even everyday people who like think they have this

idea of this impossible dream and it's so impossible I'm not going to do it. I thought it was interesting though, because you gravitated towards joke structure, like you were writing jokes. You saw jokes. You know, that, like, when I thought of doing comedy when I was younger, it was because I had something to say. And so it was very vague to me how anyone even begins to do that. But somehow or another, you managed to see the nuts and bolts of it very early on.

Right. That it was about joke writing. For me, it was like, I'm just going to go up there and speak my mind, man. I love the musicality of a joke, the structure, just the power of it. So where'd you go? What was it? In Connecticut? Waterbury, Connecticut.

I feel like I did one-nighters there when I worked for Barry Katz. That sounds about right. There was a place called Tavern Near the Green. Oh, yeah? The Red Bull Inn. Yeah. It got to the point like when I was living. Waterbury.

What's that near? It's kind of up near the middle of the state above Hartford. Yeah, man. Not much going on there? It was. When I was a kid, man, it was this factory town. Yeah. On the downswing. Yeah. It was getting when I was a kid, man, it was this factory town on the downswing.

Yeah. It was getting really depressed. And even as a kid, I knew like, man, I can't. You got people there still? Some, yeah. My sister's there. Oh, really? Did it bounce back?

No, it got worse. It actually got worse. But what was great is my dad owned this shitty bar in the 70s. Yeah. I was a kid, and I hung out there. How old are you? I'm 63. I'm 59.

A little older. So that's good. You caught the good part of the 70s. You were, like, relatively conscious. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. It was just a dirty bar?

It was this stinky, you know, shitty gin mill. Yeah. There was like pimps, you know, and just drunk regulars and some hookers. Oh, really? Once in a while. Yeah. But this was, you know, ages like 8 to 11. Oh, that's so prime.

It's like you saw real adulthood in its worst form. My dad had a go-go dancer once a week. And as a kid, I was old enough to know, like, what happens? What does this— Where is this going? Is this, like, does she get naked? Is there a sexual act? Does she read poetry?

I don't know. Yeah, yeah. And every week, I'm like, it's going to happen. I'm going to see it happen tonight because my dad would just pull me out of there, you know, 9 o'clock showtime. But he didn't mind keeping you. Your mom didn't care that you were there? Well, it was always like, you know, the car ride home more than once it was like, don't tell your mother. So you just liked hanging out down there?

Yeah. It was one of those things. My grandfather had a hardware store in New Jersey. And I just liked going there, not because it's not the same, but there were these old men that used to hang around in the hardware store and just tell stories. And I just thought it was the greatest thing. Yeah, that's kind of what I saw, too, even at this young age. He had like 10 softball beer teams, you know?

Yeah. And these 20-something-year-old dudes that were just funny, and I'm just watching sort of this humor through camaraderie, and making fun of the drunks at the bar, and I'm going, oh shit, I can do that? You can make fun of people, and you make friends? Yeah. Isn't it weird to have like a 20-year-old seem like a fucking grown-up? I know.

It's so crazy. But like, when I was a kid, when I was like 11, like, I like a fucking grownup. I know. It's so crazy. But, uh, like when I was a kid, when I was like 11, like I was a huge comedy fan too. And like, and I, and I've told this story, but I think it's what kind of changed my life was that I talked to my parents

into taking me to see Jackie Vernon, who was doing the lounge at the Hilton hotel in Albuquerque, New Mexico. I must've been 11 years old. And we were right up front. It was a little place. And I could see, like, him sweating. I could see the whole thing.

And it was just, it kind of burned into my brain. I thought it was the greatest thing ever. Did it feel like he was struggling, though? I mean, is he just? No, I mean, like, I just loved watching comedy on TV. So I would see him do the slideshow thing and i but i think i realized that there was a whole life and world there that was not as clean and as as pat as you you would see them on tv you know because this is an older guy probably at that time

and uh it's and you know when you sit up close even when i do do TV now, if I'm too close to the host or something with the makeup, you're like, oh, my God. It's all, you know, what are they hiding? How do they look the way they do when I watch them at home? Yeah. I think I thought he was funny. But all those old school guys to me were and still are hilarious. I mean, you talk about the musicality of the jokes and it was all that style. Yeah.

And I kind of grew up in a stressful house, you know? Why? My dad, Korean War Marine. Oh, yeah? Got whacked with Trapnil, burnt out his arm. You know, got his Purple Heart, went back in, fought again. You know, and he kind of... Was he a PTSD guy or no? No, but he kind of learned discipline. Yeah. Through boot camp.

Right. And he decided that's how he was going to sort of run the house. So he's a great Santini? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Exactly, exactly. Yeah. And I felt like the only time the family felt kind of happy and comfortable together was watching comedy on TV.

Oh, nice. Yeah. Like that Tonight Show and stuff? Yeah, yeah. I mean, especially with my dad watching old-time comics. Yeah. Yeah.

It was fantastic. I mean, we were bonding through comedy. Right. So you could see how it just burned. Who were his guys? Dangerfield. Yeah. Henny.

Yeah. Rickles. He loved it. Yeah. Yeah, that was the same with my grandmother. It was sort of a similar thing, that there was this appreciation. Yeah. Rickles. He loved it. Yeah. Yeah, that was the same with my grandmother. It was sort of a similar thing, that there was this appreciation. Yeah. In fact, I was obsessed with that thing at the back of the Parade magazine, My Favorite Jokes.

Oh, yeah. Do you remember that? Yeah, yeah. They were just written right there, and it was like a new comic every week, and I would just look at them. I didn't see a lot of them live. I didn't know who a lot of them were, but I loved reading the jokes. Yeah. What I did for my dad's 60th birthday.

Yeah. And my dad was living in Connecticut still at the time. He had actually a nice house. He was in real estate by this time. Yeah. So he was making more money. But he had this. Got rid of the bar?

Got rid of the bar, much to my disappointment. I still lament. Have you gone back and looked for the bar? The building is there. Now it's a rehab place. There you go. But his 60th birthday, he was having a big party, and it was the big finished off basement, you know, with the bar in there and everything. And there was like 100 of his relatives and best friends.

So I hired Henny Youngman to show up at the party as a surprise. How much did that cost you? It was two grand, and I had to sit with Henny at lunch at Wolf's Deli. Yeah. Where is Wolf's Deli? In Waterbury? In New York City, in 57th Street. Oh, oh.

Which was, by the way, that was fantastic, just to sit and have lunch with Henny Youngman. Yeah, was it? Was that the first time you met a guy? How old were you? This was, I was older. I was like 30-ish or something. Oh, so you've been in it for a while. Yeah, yeah.

So that's why I had connections to get to him and that sort of thing. How was he? It was fantastic because, first of all, if Henny Youngman's showing up at your house in the middle of Connecticut, it's like if the Who showed up at your 60th. Did you have to drive him? No, I had to hire a driver. Okay, yeah. But they had a sound system set up for the DJ and whatever,

and I came up, and I could tell my dad's like, oh, is he going to do some of his acts? Yeah, right. And then I said, I got a friend of mine from New York who wants to say something. And then he came down the basement stairs with the loud jacket and the violin and just went at it. Yeah. And my dad saw this and he, I've never seen him this excited.

Just got up off the chair, like, pirouetted with excitement. Yeah. And Henny did 20 minutes. Yeah. You know, my dad's heckling him. Oh, yeah. It's like a whole thing. And.

It was great. Yeah. You know? My dad's heckling him. Oh, yeah. It's like a whole thing. And – It was great. Yeah. It's funny. Henny, too, was like, you know, Dad, I bet you like one of my joke books. I'll sign it for him. I'll go, bring a joke book. That's great. So after the event, he goes out to the car and he's got these two box – help me bring these in.

He's got two boxes of joke books. He sets up a merch table. In the basement? Yeah. At your house? Did he move any? He moved it. Well, he ended up giving them all away, right?

I didn't know what was going on. He ended up giving them away. Yeah. And then he calls me the next day. So that's $400 for the books. What's happening? It's for my charity. Oh my God.

But when something like that happens, did it, like, were you, where were you in your career at that point? What year was that like? This was mid, late 80s.

All right, so it was around when I met you, maybe a little before. Yeah. So you were kind of still just doing stand-up. Yeah, yeah. You're not a writer yet. No, I probably started by then, too.

To write on what? Well, at that time, there was a ton of... Oh, the basic cable stuff. Cable stuff, Caroline's Comedy Hour. Were you writing bits on that or writing for the hosts and stuff? Yeah, wraparound for Carol Leifer. Oh, right. She was the first host when it was down at the seaport, right?

Yeah. Oh, my God. I did that. Yeah. Yeah. But, all right. But that moment where you realize that the hustle of it, that these – because I remember the first time I realized that comics did corporate gigs or would do almost anything. Even these people that you respect and have a sort of amount of reverence to are available and probably not that much money.

Right. It's a little bit, I don't know if it's heartbreaking, but it's certainly humanizing. Well, it's funny because I went through this stage when I was doing stand-up when I was like literally 25 or a little older where I kind of realized as a standup, I'm not going to be Carlin. I'm not going to be Robert Klein. That's the best realization you can have. So it's like, well, what the fuck am I going to do? And I've been having luck as a writer.

Yeah. Because I'm like, even then in my 20s going on the road, I'm like, this sucks. I just hate it. Like the owner wants to pay in cocaine and there's, you know, I come come home i got bed bugs and i've been drinking for three weeks you know it's like no did you really get bed bugs at some condo yeah i got some weird rash i came like i can't yeah no it's hard um so it's like i i don't want to be 50 and and doing that i don't want to be 50 i can't do cruise ships i I can't, you know. And I've always been kind of leaning towards the writer thing because, again, as a kid, I would put my little cassette, record all the comedians on The Tonight Show, wherever they would show up, and just listen and break it down.

Really? Like how old? 16, 17. So with the cassette player, you're recording everybody. Yeah. And then I would try to understand it, and then I would tell my friends those jokes. I'm 16 and doing jokes about my mother-in-law. Yeah.

But one time Rodney, who was my favorite, came on The Tonight Show, and it was one of the rare times where Johnny got him in like a normal conversation. Oh, yeah, it's rare. The only time that you'd see that, usually when you'd see that wall break, is when jokes would die. He's like, is that mic set right? But that's when I found out he started in the Catskills

as Jack Roy. Yeah. And he had this comedy club in Manhattan. He had David Fields. And then my gears in my head started turning. Yeah. I thought, you know, I know his jokes so well. Yeah.

What happens if I send him some jokes? Right. I can send them to Jack Roy at Dangerfields. Yeah. Got out my mom's, you know, manual typewriter and just sat down and wrote like a page and a half of jokes. Yeah. Rodney jokes.

Yeah. Rodney jokes. At least what I thought were Rodney jokes. Yeah. And send them off. And I'm like, what am I thinking? Yeah, he's a comedy star. But, I mean, as a kid, I kind of, when I think back, I kind of admired the fucking chutzpah. Yeah, yeah, why not?

So, you know, a couple weeks go by, and I just kind of forget about it. And I'm in my paneled basement bedroom, and the phone rings, like, after dinnertime. My mom's at the top of the stairs. Yeah. Mike, there's a Rodney on the phone for you? Yeah. I'm like, what? You know, my 17-year-old head, you know, picked up.

Hello, hello. Hey, Mike, it's Rodney. How you doing? You okay? You all right? Hey. I'm like, well, hello. Yeah, I got your jokes.

You know, they're pretty good. They're all right, you know. They're not from me, but they're good. And he kept me on the phone for like 15 minutes saying, you got to do this, and this is important. And then I told him, can I be a stand-up? And he goes, yeah, it's the improv. Don't come to my club. It's no good.

Oh, really? Yeah. But I felt like at that age, if I'm getting a thumbs up from Rodney, I go, you know, I ran to my mom. I'm like, I'm going to move in the yard and be a comedian. And parents, you know, are like, you know. Right. Or a ballerina or an astronaut, whatever kids want to be. Fireman.

Yeah. Well, that's so, like, as a grown-up person, though, you realize what a menschy fucking thing that was to do, right? Yeah. You know, it's like, what a sweet fucking guy to, like, do that. Like, you know, he appreciated it. Like, because, you know, comics have a certain, stars have a certain status. They throw that kind of shit away all the time. I know.

I never got it. And then, in fact, he sent me a letter. It showed up, like, a week later. Just, like, a whole thing of, like, it's going to take years before you find out what's funny. And it's like. Oh, he felt he was too encouraging. He wanted to temper your excitement a little bit. Ultimately, when I got to New York, I ended up writing some jokes for him.

And in his club, he's got his basement dressing room, no window. And I'm still like 18, 19, and I've got my little pages of jokes. And he's pacing, and he's in the robe. I'm like, my wife. And then nothing's landing. And at one point, he stops, and I'm like, oh, did I hit? And then he turns around and starts peeing in the sink. They don't give me a toilet down here.

I've got to pee in the sink. Did he remember you? Did you bring up that you had written him? Well, I don't know. I know Rodney back then is like if a young comic had jokes for him, he would just, you know, this is great. Just come over. Yeah. And I'll take them.

What did he pay? Like 50 bucks a joke? It was 50. That's not bad. Yeah. Joan Rivers was like 10 bucks. Oh, really? A joke.

You tried writing for all of them? Yeah. I wrote for Rip Taylor. Oh, really? A joke. You tried writing for all of them? Yeah. I wrote for Rip Taylor. Oh, really? I'm reading a good book, The History of Crazy Glue. I can't put it down. Hello? $50, man.

So, but when do you, like, it's weird because I always knew Rodney, but I actually think I grew to appreciate him more in the last decade than I did when I was younger as like, you know, really kind of the truest standup, one of them in terms of just being, you know, a guy who's going for laughs a second, you know? Yeah. And also like, I feel like in the big picture, he doesn't, you know, now or posthumously actually doesn't get the respect he deserves. That's true. I mean, I feel like all those old timers are kind of starting to fade away.

You know, the Friars Club closed down and that was part of the history of it all. And, you know. Well, they're all dead. Yeah. And what happens? Why does some things, you know, live on all dead yeah and what happens why does some things you know live on and some fade out in terms of like people remembering them or having a place yeah yeah but he was like i will sometimes watch like i don't watch youtube much but sometimes i'm just sitting there i'll just cycle through rickles and rodney appearances on on johnny and it's the

greatest thing in the world. Because I remember from when I was a kid. But I don't think I was as attuned to them as a comic as I am now. Those moments when they fall flat, it's the best. It's the best. I worked on Martin Short had a syndicated talk show. Yeah, I remember that. And I wrote on, Martin Short had a syndicated talk show. Yeah, I remember that. And I wrote on that.

And Marty knew how much I loved Rickles. And Rickles was going to be on the show. He was like, we'll work it out. I'll make sure you meet him. I went out. I bought a hockey puck for him to sign. So I'm waiting in the hallway. They're finishing the segment

on the show and I'm like you know it's like I'm you know stalking him or something you know

but Marty wants to introduce me to him so like the show's over and he comes out with his group and they kind of walk behind him

like the lowly fan just kind of oh shit I missed that opportunity so Marty saw me standing there so he goes, did you get to talk to him? I go, no. So he went back to the dressing room and brought Rickles out to talk to me.

And we stood in the hallway and we talked for like a half hour. And this is me, my dad, kind of like he was the guy that helped bond us. But, of course, at the end of the thing, his wrangler came by and kind of, you know, grabbed his arm. And he goes, did you get the hangers? He goes, no, I didn't get the hangers. And I'm like, what? And he looks at me and goes, I'm a Jew on a cheap show. I got to take everything.

And he went and took the wooden hangers out of the dressing room. That's fucking hilarious. I worked with Michael Lerner. You know Michael Lerner, the actor? Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was on my TV show. And literally, he was on like one episode of the TV show. And he's like, can I have the robe?

I'm like, no, it's wardrobe. He's like, can I have the... We were on a set in a condo that we were shooting in. It's like, what about these plants? Can I take the plants? No, you can't take any. What is wrong with you? So when do you start with the, I mean, when do you start doing the comedy?

Would I do stand-up? Yeah, the first time. Like, was it in Connecticut? Yes, it was. This was like 76, 77. Yeah. Actually, I started in high school. It was the first time I did it in my junior year, the talent night.

Yeah. And I was the guy in the classroom that was just fucking throwing shit out there and making the room laugh. It was like a white hot room. Sometimes I would leave a classroom and I'd have that like post showbiz, like I did a set. Yeah. So the teachers hated you. They actually liked me because I wasn't all that disruptive. I would pick my spots and there would be a laugh.

It would be stupid shit, you know. Yeah, yeah. Excuse me, I have a question. When was the War of 1812? You know, but when you're kids in a classroom, that's great. That's a pretty good one. So the teacher actually like came to me and said, you're going to do the show, right?

And I'm like, am I going to do it in front of my whole school? Am I going to do stand-up for the first time? And my mom, because I'm really a quiet person, my mom didn't even bring anybody to the show because she thought it would be. It would be terrible. Didn't want you to be embarrassed in front of more people. And yeah, and it's the entire school. I'm supposed to be funny. And man, I just did it. I just went for it. By yourself? Yeah. Yeah. And, yeah, and it's the entire school. I'm supposed to be funny. And, man, I just did it.

I just went for it. By yourself? Yeah. Yeah. And? It went great. Yeah? It went great.

It felt like, you know, I got off as, over the years of doing sets, it was that same feeling of, oh, shit. Were you doing your jokes? No. Yes and no.

Yeah. Half of it was Freddie Prinze. Wow. What an interesting choice. I remember. So you did a Half of it was Freddie Prinze. Wow. What an interesting choice. I remember- So you did a lot of Puerto Rican jokes? There was. I was like, hey, there's no Puerto Rican astronauts all the way to moon, blow the horn, play the radio. Well, coming out of you is a little different, right?

I know. I don't know how I got away with it. Different time. It makes no sense, and I'll even say it. But I remember writing my first few jokes. I went to a vocational high school, learned electronics, because it was determined that I was not college material. Really? So you're ready to set up shop in Waterbury, fixing audio equipment and TV? Yeah.

So one of the first jokes, my parents wanted me to go to a vocational high school so they'd know what kind of work I'd be out of. I mean, for a 16-year-old kid, that's all right. It's so funny you just made the face again. That was the one I always made you do. The burl face. The burl take. Fucking Bill Hicks loved that so much. He would want me to come to lunch with him just to do the burl take. Fucking Bill Hicks loved that so much. Like, he would want me to come to lunch with him just to do the burl face.

When he was living in New York for 10 minutes? Yeah, on the west side. It was great. Yeah, the burl face was great. I remember being, it was one of those things where you just, I'd see you and you'd request it. Yeah. Yeah, and you'd be like. Yeah.

It was just a very brief impression. But did you meet him? Did you meet? Well, first It was just a very brief impression. But did you meet him? Did you meet? Well, first, I saw him a bunch of times. Is that where you picked up the take? Yeah, they did the take. And I loved the rhythm of his.

I saw him at some event, and there was a guy in a plaid jacket walking in the background. And without missing a beat, like out of the corner of his eyes, he goes, you can sit down. We saw the jacket. You know? And does the face. And I just love that stuff. And I was in, uh, the Catskill mountains. He's so funny.

I, I went to see, I think it was Max Alexander and Paul Provenza on the show. Uh, this was so long ago, but Burl was at another place. Yeah. And, uh, I think Max knew him. I forget who. So we go over there, we go in the dressing room and Burl's in another place. And I think Max knew him. I forget who. So we go over there. We go in the dressing room and Burl's in there getting dressed. Yeah. He's kind of behind this curtain between the, and he, most people who know Burl know that he has a giant cock.

That's what I've always heard. Yeah. Yeah. Not that I thought much about it. Yeah. But he likes to show it off because he was in his boxer shorts and he pulls the curtain back. Yeah. And he just an excuse of like, can you hand me that hairbrush just so he can step out enough to where his cock is hanging out of the side of his shorts and about near the knee.

Come on. Yeah. It was about near the knee. Yeah. That seems unusable. I couldn't tell you. I mean, mine's an innie. Yeah. So I'm not sure. I don't remember if I was shocked or it's that thing where you pretend you're, he does it all.

I didn't know what to do. But you have that experience. It burned in my brain. Sure. And I guess that was the intention, to does it all. I didn't know what to do. But. But you have that experience. It's, it burned in my brain. Sure. And I guess that was the intention, to carry the myth. Yes. To continue the story of Milton Berle's cock. It's all true.

Read the book. Anyway, so this kind of, again, it's like all the green lights are going, man. So. You didn't need to take a job as an electrician ever? No, I worked in multiple TV repair shops. You did? Yeah. As in what, like before you were 20?

Yeah, yeah, fixing TVs. In fact, my cousin would have his truck and we'd drive around to the TV repair shops and we'd get the TVs out of the dumpster. I'd take them home and like Frankenstein TVs together and shit like that. Just for fun? Yeah. You still got home and like Frankenstein TVs together and just like that. Just for fun? Yeah. And. You still got chops as an electrician? I have some chops, but I don't have the tools.

Okay. Yeah. I make my wife crazy because there's this YouTube channel I watch. Yeah. Of this guy that fixes old TVs. Yeah. And it's just this boring, like he opens up the schematics. Yeah.

And puts the test thing to the thing. And for you it's nostalgic. Yeah. But out of high school, and it's funny because, again, I was considered not college material. So I go to this job interview that was sort of an offshoot of NASA in Danbury, Connecticut. And they build airplane equipment and dials and shit like that. Ambitious. And I go, I'm going to just show up.

And this is what I'm supposed to do. I'm not, you know, the idea of actually going to New York City. I'm kind of like, it's fading on me. And I go, I went to school for this. And in the interview, it's like, it's going well. I got my dad's nice shoes on. You know. Yeah.

And they give me a test. They give me an electronics math test and give me a calculator. This is the job interview. Yeah. And I'm like, why don't I just leave now? You know. And I take the test

and then I'm waiting. Can you hang out? Yeah. We'll go through this. And then I notice in the back they have the rocket dying division. And I'm talking to a guy there, and I go, so what's that? And they go, that's what they work on, the space shuttle there. And I go, you know, you work here a few years.

Some people move on up to the – Yeah. And the guy came out with my test result and he goes, well, if you're interested, we want to start you in the rocket dying division working on that space shuttle. I'm like, I guess so. Okay. So you nailed the test. It was, you know. Did you do it?

I did it for, you know what? It was that point in a lot of people's. So wait, is the challenge your fault? No, the one where the tiles fell off. That was me. That's a lesser transgression, I think. What was interesting though, because I think a lot of people hit this point in their life where you have this opportunity presented to you, this life, this career opportunity. And I still had my high school girlfriend yeah everything was kind of great so it's like close by I should I can have a great career working for NASA yeah knows maybe I'll get married but you know or

like the the the comedy whore kept screaming in my head yeah like it's craziness he can't yeah so I stayed there like a year. But then I started showing up, and this is way before the comedy boom. I would just walk into a bar. I'm still 17 or whatever. And if there was a band, I'd go to – I'd find the manager and go, when they have a break, can I just go up and tell jokes? And they're like, well, you know. This is when before every building had a microphone.

And then that's how I did it. I would just show up at bars and just go and do it, you know. That seems tough. Yeah, but I love stand-up so much I felt like it doesn't matter. I'm doing it. Did you do well? Sometimes, I guess. Yeah, I did well. I did well.

I mean, it was, as far as I can remember, I did well. In fact, what happened was I found a jazz club in my hometown somehow. And they were so open to stand up in something different and something weird, that became my room. Yeah. singer, kind of like lighting up the room, dancing around. And, you know, he's kind of this Louis Prima guy. Yeah. And then he watched my set and said, you know, there's these comedy clubs in New York. And I go, yeah, I know about them. And he says, you should get in there.

I think you're ready. I'm like, who's this guy? And it was, remember Nick Apollo from the Woody Allen movie? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He was from my hometown and played all these same little, you know. He did what he did in the movie. Yeah. In, it was.

Broadway Danny Rose? Broadway Danny Rose. Yeah, Broadway Danny Rose. Yeah, it was Broadway Danny Rose. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Oh, that's great. And so that was enough to get you out of NASA?

Got me out of NASA. I think what got me out of NASA was my sister found an ad in the paper. The Harvard Civic Center, which had, the roof had just collapsed. I don't know if anyone remembers this, but the roof fell in, but there was like a performance area right outside. So anyway, they were having a benefit night and it was a comedy night.

Yeah. And it was a competition. Yeah. And the prize was you get to audition at the improv in New York. I'm like, holy shit, this is my way in. Yeah. And it was hosted by David Frye. Yeah.

Talk about old timer. And that guy, David Frye, even, you know, even at that point he was doing it for so long, he just, you know, it was just a money grab. He had like the car waiting outside the door. He just like spewed out his 12 minutes and then hightailed it out of there. But, I mean, that was fine. Anyway, there was 10 or 12 of us. And I had the props then, and I don't know what the fuck I was doing. But I almost had enough experience where it paid off, and I won the night. So I got a limo and dinner in New York City and got to audition at the improv.

For Silver. Silver was not there yet. Oh. And Bud was gone uh and bud was gone and it was a weird middle point was it was it chris albert albrecht was there and some guy steve yeah who i didn't know and haven't seen since wow so that like so it was in between bud and silver i didn't realize there was an in-between it was literally like it was just a short window of time because first of all, what was fun

is there was a Saturday night. Yeah. They're putting me on prime time. Yeah. Middle of the show. So the audience is white hot. Yeah. And it just went great.

So Steve, this guy said, you come and hang out. Yeah. Of course I live in Connecticut, you know, two hours away, but still it's like, okay, I have this opportunity. And you did it? I eventually moved out into New York City. How was that for your parents? My dad loved it.

Yeah, he did. So he had seen you work a few times, I imagine. Yeah. And you were doing his style, right? What was my style? I did a lot of sound effects okay um oh there was a thing about the dogs always would attack our garbage pails at night it got to the point we opened like a dog restaurant you know how many two by the bush we got something by the can open you know whatever

that uh two by the bush uh the diners the din diners in Waterbury, you know, the old heavy ladies with the big breasts. They come to your table. They got food stains on there, you know. Yeah. And what did you like? And they point to her breasts. Well, the tuna looks great, you know. Yeah.

Bad placed. Instead of lobsters in the tank, there were fish sticks floating around. Yeah. floating around. But that was more of like the influence of liking, because I moved on to like Leno and Letterman and all those guys before they were even famous. Yeah. And Freddie Prinze and, you know, that 70s, you know.

Such a small window with Freddie. Yeah. But I can't, like, I don't remember seeing him when I was a kid. I don't remember seeing him when I was a kid. I don't remember seeing him. Well, I think he was there for me in an interesting time because there was the Mike Douglas show. Yeah. The semicircle.

Yeah. And they, the guest host would be there for a week and it was Freddie Prinze. They, the guest host would be there for a week, and it was Freddie Prinze. This time, Freddie Prinze each night would kind of introduce something he was doing in his life. Yeah. We were about the same age. Yeah. You know, so it'd be like, he would show the improv. Like, you know, I got to see the improv on camera and some of the comedians.

So he was in New York still? Yeah. Oh. He might have been living here, but he, in fact, it may have been the LA club. I don't remember. But so he talked about stand-up and how much fun that was. And then they showed outtakes from Chico and the Man. And they go, this guy just lives a fun life.

Yeah. Hey, look, they're just laughing. He's playing the drums. I play the drums, too. Like, this is like, it's, you know. Right, kismet. Yeah. And then he brought up, he introduced a comedian friend of his.

Yeah. Who was exactly my age. And he was okay, but he was sort of like, wasn't that great? So I felt like, well, if he can do it, I can. Was it Burski? Yeah. I hate to say, but even as, you know, at that age, I was able to recognize, like, well, then why not me? You're going to get a call now.

Why would you say that? Burski is great, by the way, and he's an interesting character. And it was fun for me for a minute to kind of go full circle with that because I ran into him at a Walgreens or something. And I told him who I was. Yeah. And I kind of said, you know, without saying, thanks to you, you're one of the reasons I, you know. You didn't tell him the whole story. No.

Yeah. But I guess he'll hear it now. I don't know. Yeah, maybe. But, you know, that's me. So, all right. So, you moved down to New York. Now, what is, what year is that? 1979. right, so you moved down to New York. Now, what year is that?

1979. Oh, so you're there. There's still a lot of big hitters around from the 70s before they all split. Who was there? I was mostly at the improv, so it was, remember Mark Wiener? Yeah, of course. Mark Schiff. Neither one of them would work on Saturday.

Uh-huh. You named the two Orthodox Jews. Piscopo was like the emcee most of the time. Yeah. Glenn Hirsch. Yeah, I remember him. Bob Shaw was there. Bob, Michael Patrick King, and I wrote on the Carolines thing together.

Michael Patrick King. See, I never saw him do stand-up i don't think a lot of people know he did it was brief yeah he started in a group and then had a partner then it was just two of them yeah um uh andy kaufman was there was he still he came back yeah this was uh around the wrestling time okay and he kind of befriended me. Oh, really? I got to referee some wrestling matches on that little tiny stage at the improv. So tiny. In the corner.

It was, I mean, it was scary because it was really a woman, a real woman from the audience. It wasn't set up. Yeah. And he would flip her around on that little stage, you know, and it's like, I felt like I had some responsibility because I was the quote-unquote, you know, and it's like, I felt like I had some responsibility because I was the, the, the quote unquote, you know, referee. Yeah.

And the women would get so worked up and they would just crowd the stage. It was like a thunderdome. Huh. They would pile on top of each other because he's, you know, you should be home cooking and cleaning and doing the ironing. Yeah. Um, and then, uh, I was just looking for the right moment to call it at those times

you know before it got too crazy and then the women you know would want to kill him and then they would go up to him

at the bar and want to fuck him it's weird it's but he was a star already yes he was a star yeah

I got to play drums for his Elvis a few times really fantastic it was great and what as a guy what was he like?

He stayed in character all the time, but I felt kind of— Which character? The heel? The wrestler character? The wrestler. He had the neck brace on just in the bar and going on stage. I feel kind of privileged because he confided in me a few times. That's like, you know.

About what? Like he went on Letterman. He was talking about, on the show he was unshaven and sniveling. Yeah. Talking about how he got fired from Taxi. Yeah. And he's like, if you have any money, you know, ask a new audience, you know. And they're throwing change at him, you know.

And he got worked up and security had to pull him out yeah you know yeah and then i saw him the next night and he's like they really thought i needed money they you know yeah and to me i felt this was like a privileged moment yeah it's like yeah it's like learning the trick yeah the magician telling you the trick he was so excited though yeah what so was uh larry david gone he was gone already doing like fridays yeah then he came back eventually while i was still there were you doing catch or just the improv rarely did catch was most of the improv all the kind of west side it actually got to the point. What, like west side? Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember doing 11 shows in one night.

At the improv? Just on the west side. Like what were the other? So this was the days of like stand-up New York on upper 70s and just going straight down like 9th Avenue. Then I'd hit the improv. Caroline's was on 8th at the time. Yeah.

Oh, yeah, yeah. And then going to the Village to the Comedy Cellar. Yeah. I was also doing the Bottom Line. Right. That was like the regular opening act for people there.

Oh, yeah? Village Gate was doing comedy. Raffi at the Gate. Yeah. Yeah. The Gate was amazing. Kind of was. Like, I was in the kitchen

waiting to go on, and there was this little door. Yeah. Right? And I hear, like, music coming out of the door, and I'm like, what the fuck is that? Yeah. And I open the door, and it's, like, wooden spiral staircase that goes down into a basement, and the music's getting louder. Yeah.

And it was Bo Diddley in this little, dark, cavernous basement with, like, 20 people just, like, playing and going. Yeah, it's like, well, I stepped into this little magical. Yeah, I think he lived there for a while in New York. In? Yeah. It's like I stepped into this little magical. Yeah. I think he lived there for a while in New York. In the basement? Yeah. Because I ran into him. I had met, like, he was at a bar.

I don't remember what the hell. I was drunk. But it was when I was still in college. And I remember meeting Bo Diddley in New York. So I wonder if he was there for a while. Yeah. The gate was kind of a wild place. There was like three or four rooms there.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I loved all of it, even all the insanity of it all. It was just great. Was Belzer still around? He was around. Not that much. I mean, he was mostly at Catch. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

What was great to me when I first moved out there, I was sleeping in shifts because I had a day job. You know, I would come home from work, sleep from like 6 to 10. What were you doing, electronics? I worked at an AV repair shop. Yeah. And part of my job, and again, I'm 20, 21, is to go to Times Square. This is, again, 1980. Yeah.

Porn District, 42nd Street. Yeah. And do the maintenance on the projection equipment. Yeah. And, man, so, you know, this 19-year-old kid, whatever, just off the bus from Connecticut, and I'm thrown into the underbelly of Manhattan. And you go into these places, and each one is just a Scorsese movie. You know, you got the, first of all,

Gotti had his hand in those porn theaters back then, but he did a deal with the Sri Lankan mob because Gotti knew like the home video stuff was coming in. So like guys didn't have to leave the house to jerk off. Yeah. So he knew like they were going downhill. So I had to deal with those Sri Lankan guys that were just angry

because they had been ripped off. Yeah. Because I go in my little toolbox, you know, in those theaters, and first of all, the projectors were those 16 millimeter,

like, projectors from high school. Like Bell and Howell? Yeah. Yeah. And I'm there, people there, I'm at lunchtime. Yeah.

I'm waiting to get the rocks off, and they're waiting on you to fix the machine. And you go in, people there at lunchtime. Yeah. I'm waiting to get the rocks off, and they're waiting on you to fix the machine. And you go in, and there's like this manager guy with like a gimp hand and a dead eye. Yeah. You know, I'm there with my little toolbox. And then when the projector goes off, then the live show starts. Oh, yeah. That's a lot. That is rough.

I mean, and I'm cleaning the gates, but I'm looking through the little window. Just people fucking on stage. Exactly. Yeah. First of all, these strippers came out. Like, a woman comes out. By the way, the audience, I mean, 1130 is like a degenerate sleeping and, you know, four guys from Jersey, like, curious and, you know.

And there was always a Wall Street guy. One guy. In a suit. Briefcase. You know, this is his lunch break. Yeah. But I distinctly remember a stripper coming out in a bikini, right? And takes off the top, hands it behind the curtain.

Yeah. Slips off the bottom, hands it behind the curtain and does her thing, comes out. And she was handing the bikini off to the next stripper. So she's wearing the same bikini. Oh, man. And then, like, a bug guy spraying the stage and, you know. Yeah. But, yeah, then came the full nude, you know, sex ballet.

Yeah. And I'm, you know. For, like, five people. Yeah. You think an open mic's tough. You think doing a, I mean, it's kind of astounding. Ugh. They'd roll out this dirty mattress.

And I remember the woman naked. Yeah. Yeah, they were both naked. And the guy laying on his back. Yeah. And she's, you know, putting her stuff on his face, bopping up and down to the song, I'm sitting on top of the world.

Sitting on top of the world, sitting on top of the world. And you're trying to focus on the projector. Yeah, yeah. In fact, it affected me so much. That was the payoff from your childhood experience. That's where the go-go girl. That's right. It came full circle.

You landed, yeah. But I remember one time the girl in the sex act was young, looked healthy, you know, alabaster skin.

Sure. And I thought for a moment like maybe she just took a bad turn. Right. You know, and for a moment in my head I thought maybe

I can save her. Yeah. Did you talk to her? No. Because somebody had talked to the dancers and the Sri Lankan guy went crazy. Yeah. You. Did you talk to her? No. Because somebody had talked to the dancers and the Sri Lankan guy went crazy on them. But it inspired me so much that I wrote a pilot

about it, just that time and then the idea of what happened if that kid did take this kind of crazy girl on and try to bring her this feral girl and see if he can wrangle her. And also it's not something that hasn't been done by many comics.

Many people have tried that. It doesn't generally end well. No, no. But you're there. Because I don't get there really in earnest. Silver passed me at the improv when it was sort of, you know, dying, I think. It was probably 89 when I got to New York. Yeah.

To really, when I moved there. And it was like the only club, that and the Boston, that would let me work. So I was there, you know, a lot. And I couldn't really work at the Cellar for years. But by then, you're already like 10 years in, but you're still there. I know. And so all the writing that you guys started, it seems like everybody started writing on those basic cable shows, like Louis. And I know that Cohen was involved. And then there was that whole

sort of scene of us. But I guess you were a little older, because there's a picture in the book at Mark Cohen's apartment. And I couldn't believe there wasn't a bong on the table. I said, how did they get the one picture of that apartment believe there wasn't a bong on the table. I said, how did they get the one picture of that apartment that wasn't a bong on that table? That's a good question. What was interesting is that there would be a thing going on at Cohen's almost every single night at his apartment after the gigs. Right, well, him and Attell were best friends,

and he was, I guess Attell was was dating Sarah first and Louis was around. There's a picture of Joe Mulligan in there who I haven't seen in a million years. What happened to that guy? Joe is, I haven't really talked to him. I just kind of see what's going on on social media. But he has a son who is a successful comic actor. Oh, really? He's done sketches on when Conan was on and stuff like that. Yeah. But he has a son who is a successful comic actor. Oh, really?

He's done sketches on when Conan was on and stuff like that. Still in the game, kind of? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So your first gig was writing for Carolines? I think my first paying gig, I was at the launch of Comedy Central. Oh, when it was Comedy Channel? Yeah.

Oh, interesting. So was that with the Higgins Boys and Gruber? Who was there? Yeah, Higgins Boys. Rich Hall was there for a short time. Right, yeah. Rachel Sweet. And that was after? It was Ha for a second?

No, Ha was there at the same time. Okay. And then it all became Comedy Central, and it was HBO Downtown Productions and Viacom, I guess, partnered in that. Because I hosted the last version of Short Attention Span Theater in 92. And was it still Comedy Channel or Comedy Central? No, it was Comedy Central. And it was HBO Downtown, which had that makeshift studio down on 23rd and maybe 6th. I can't remember.

Was it that circular thing where the other offices were kind of on the outer? Yes. Yeah, yeah. Right. And it was politically incorrect. Stand-up, stand-up. And Short Attention Span Theater. I think the Higgins Boys and Gruber were there because their props were still around.

And a lot of coffee and cigarette butts. Yeah. I mean, I ended up with a guitar that was a prop on the Higgins boys and Gruber because they were cleaning out the basement over there. And I was like, what's going to happen to that? I'll take it. But, okay, so you were there at the beginning of that. There was Tommy Sledge. Yep.

You know, Tommy Sledge. With the Private Eye bit? Yeah. So he talked at the beginning of that. There was Tommy Sledge. Yep. You know, Tommy Sledge. With the private eye bit? Yeah, so he talked at 1940s Private Eye. And Eddie Gordetsky hired me there. Eddie was the head writer. Eddie is synonymous with television comedy. He came up the other day. I was talking about Eddie Gordetsky.

Yeah, I see Eddie like once a week. You do? Yeah, yeah. Well, yeah, he came to my house years ago with Elvis Costello. He's a big music guy, right? But he said he didn't want to do the show. Oh. It seems like he would have a lot to talk about, but I guess he doesn't want to.

He likes cigars and music and apparently eyeglasses. Oh, yes. Yeah. But writing for Sledge, like nobody knew what they were doing, especially me, because it was my first writing job. What was his show? Oh, Inside the Comic Mind was there too, right? With Alan King? Yep.

Yeah. They kind of used the MTV VH1 model. They thought the comics could host famous clips from big comic books. That's what I end up doing. Yeah. Yeah. Famous clips from big comedy movies. Well, that's what I end up doing. Yeah.

But their idea was each day the wraparound should tell a full story. Okay. So today Sledge thinks somebody robbed something from the cafeteria. Right. You know. Oh, I see. So that was a thread. Yeah.

Yeah. But what I didn't realize, like I had to write 36 segments a day by myself. Yeah. And I thought I've never written before, so I guess if they tell me I should be able to do this, I should do it. Yeah. So it became, if I stopped writing for 10 minutes, I just would never catch up. I mean, I'm in the cab riding. That's crazy.

I'm taking a shit. I'm riding. I'm at the diner. For the whole spectrum of those transition people? Yeah. For writing those interstitial pieces for Tommy Sledge. Just for Tommy. Yeah.

But who else was doing that, interstitials? Higgins Boys was kind of the same thing. But I thought they had sort of a show, no? Yeah, but no, they might have done a little bit more of like little kind of sketches. But it was all to service the clips, the free promotional clips. Yeah. So it was driven by paying for nothing. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Well, that must have been, like I had a fight to get a writer. John Groff was my writer. I was his first writing job because they just wanted me to throw to promotional clips and it wasn't the same show. Robert Small had made it into this weird kind of this idea

was the comedy vault in the basement of Comedy Central. And they put a writer with me, but he wasn't writing jokes. I freaked out because I barely wanted the job anyways. And I was a real pain in the ass, but I made them pull Groff in to write real bits for me. But, I mean, he went on to be the head writer of Conan. And I think this kind of training, it must have been amazing. Right.

Because I learned how to write fast. Yeah. I learned how to write without putting all the editors on in my head. And for better or worse, just Sledge was not good at improvising. Yeah. So every word mattered. And he was talking in that four days lingo. And I was like, where, Havy had his show too. Yeah. And so every word mattered. And he was talking in that four days lingo. Yeah. And I was like, where, Havy had his show too.

Yeah. And Havy was able to, you know, you give him a rubber band and he can do six minutes on what's funny. Yeah, right, sure. You know. Yeah. And that was the audience of one talk show. Yeah. Was it night after night?

Yeah, yeah. That was called? Yeah. And by the way, audience one was my idea. It was? Yeah. Because you know you weren't going to get audiences. Because Leifer also had a VH1 show separate from this called From My Bedroom or something.

Oh, really? And it was wraparounds for, was it comedy or just music? I don't know. But it was her in her bedroom. And then I said, let's have two people as an audience just so know, just so you'll have someone to bounce off of. Yeah. So I just brought that to. Oh, that was you. Yeah.

That was a big hook. So then what happened? So how does the, like, you're still doing standup, but like that, I think that's important, like what you're saying, because I don't talk to, yeah, I talk to writers, but I mean, but you were a guy around, because by the time I got to the cellar, you were still doing sets, right? Yeah. And that was like, you know, I guess she passed me. It took a long time.

I had to do an agency. You were probably gone already. I don't think she let me work there until she saw my HBO half hour. That must have been like 95. Yeah, the cellar really was about they wanted you to kill. You know, you couldn't fuck around. The improv to me was always a comedy gem. You know, you couldn't fuck around. Like, the improv, to me, was always a comedy gem. You know, you could just draw stuff.

Yeah. But I kind of, the problem was, too, I was having so much fun that, you know, I go to L.A. and fuck up my life. Right. You know, I was becoming a big fish in a small pond. Right. But I knew I wanted to write,

and I just started working on that. But what were the other things you were involved with in New York? You get limited, right? You must have run the gamut of writing jobs. Oh, yeah, yeah. That's why I started writing half-hour scripts and just teaching myself how to do it. But that moment, I think, is very important because I always talk about it with comics that a lot of the guys I start with

knew they had the you know the like I don't know what they weren't delusional they knew they had a skill but they weren't going to be George Carlin right so like what else do you do with that yeah that's the rest of show business yeah only an idiot commits to comedy for a life. Yeah. Stand up. Yeah. I did. No, but first of all, I obviously landed in fantastic places. Yeah, in my mid-40s. But yeah, it's a long road. Well, I mean, still, that's, you're enjoying it. Because I kind of sort of remember a time in your life

and I ran into you like at the Sunset thing across from the Laugh Factory. And you were kind of in a place like, I'm not sure what's going to happen next. Yeah. You were looking and trying to find. Yeah. And that's why I always think about you because you found it, man, and the gears came together. And that's always a great thing because it doesn't happen a lot.

No, dude. It's scary, man. Especially when you get to a certain age and you see the wreckage. Yeah. It's scary, man. Especially when you get to a certain age and you see the wreckage. Yeah. Because looking down the barrel of a B-room headliner who doesn't sell tickets.

Yeah. But everybody knows in the business. It was like, it's gnarly, dude. It was tough. But again, I'm a little dramatic. I mean, I still get into that place where I'm like, I don't know what's going to happen. Well, I remember I had this emotional moment. I had moved to L.A.

I had my first sitcom writing job. On what? It was a show called The Boys. Alan Zweibel created it. Because what happened in New York, I was teaching myself to write. And the two shows, the two models I went off of were the Bob Newhart Vermont show and It's Gary Shandling show before Larry Sanders. And I just kept writing episodes. And I'd do the same thing I did when I was a kid. I'd record it, listen to the show.

Not on a cassette though now. You use VHS probably. No, I put it in a cassette because I would walk around and listen to it without watching it. And hear the rhythm of the characters and how they talk. Oh, wow. Yeah. I put it in a cassette because I would walk around and listen to it without watching it. And hear the rhythm of the characters and how they talk. Oh, wow. Yeah. And just try to get it into my DNA.

Yeah. And during this time, I actually ended up doing freelance working on Weekend Update at SNL for Dennis. Yeah. Because he was taking freelance jokes. But because of that, I got to hang out at SNL like all the time. Yeah. Which was kind of a fun way to go in because it's stress-free. And you just get to watch how it happens and see how it all comes together. And the time I was there, I can tell like this is going to be part of my life.

This is where I'm going to end up, where this shit is going on. Yeah. Shows are being made. Yeah. And behind the scenes and all that stuff. And I ran into Alan Zweibel there. and all that stuff. And I ran into Alan Zweibel there.

And I told him how, because I was always a fan of Alan's because he wrote for those Catskill guys. He had this great piece in the Atlantic back then of trying to get

a Catskill comic guy to understand why these jokes are funny. Yeah. And he was impressed that I remembered that. Yeah. And he's like,

what are you doing? I said, I've been writing and teach myself half hours. What do you have? And he was impressed that I remembered that. Yeah. And he's like, what are you doing? I said, I've been writing and teach myself half hours. Yeah. What do you have? And he goes, I said, and Zweibel was co-creator of It's Gary Shandling Show. Yeah. And I go, I wrote two specs of this thing. He goes, send me your best one.

And I'm like, I'm not expecting anything. Yeah. And then he calls me like a week later. He goes, I want to set you up with my manager. Yeah. And I met with the manager and he says, let's do a deal and you'll be in business with Alan. And I thought I can go to, it's Gary Shandling's show. Yeah.

But he had a show in between the seasons called The Boys. Yeah. And The Boys was about the Friars Club. Okay. And my first job, I come to LA writing for this show and it's. And it's Norman Fell, Norm Crosby, Jackie Gale. Yeah. You know, all these, all the cockas sitting at the table. That's the show.

But that's what brought me to New York City. Oh, my God. How was Jackie Gale? Jackie Gale was nuts in a great way. Yeah. Norm Crosby thought I, like, created the show so he would show up all the time and give me cigars and tell me jokes. But I was still, I started to do stand-up at the LA Improv at this time, kind of at night, because the thing about a comedy writer's room, it's just more internal. And it's, you know, I'm used to stand-up.

You do say something funny and there's a response. Comedy room, it's sort of like, oh, yeah, it's good. We could try that. And it's like, so does that mean it's good you know yeah so i was trying to stay in the stand-up loop just to feel the yeah the juice and there was this one night and i was getting kind of good spots at first but then there was a one night it's like getting late yeah you're starting to get that feeling like you're at the airport waiting and then like one of the wayne's brothers show up and he's gonna do an hour yeah like and then i get that feeling like you're at the airport waiting and then like one of the Wayne's brothers show up and he's going to do an hour.

And then I get on. It's, you know, whatever, 1130. There's that 11 people maybe in the audience. Yeah. So I did what I do in New York, which is do some of the jokes you know that works. Think of some stuff that might be funny or a joke you're working. Just kind of play. Do the gym thing.

Yeah. This is hard to explain, but I got off stage. Yeah. And the guy that ran the lights or the sound kind of came out of the shadows. I don't know who it is. Yeah. And he kind of like looks at me like I'm going to commit suicide or something. Yeah. And he's like patting me on the back.

And he's like, look, you know, don't worry. You do it a few years. You'll figure it out. And I don't believe in this kind of sort of internal stuff. But I saw, I literally saw this stand-up comic person in me, like, leave my body. Yeah. Like a ghost. Yeah.

And just kind of flew out through the roof of the club. Yeah. And I didn't just stand up again after that. Really? Yeah. It just hit me like. But you didn't feel that way on stage. No, not at all.

I didn't. It's like, this is what I do. Yeah. I think it told me like if you want to do stand up in LA, you're starting over. Interesting. Yeah. And I've done it for 10 years. Yeah.

I'm going to start over. Right. You know. Right. So it was that line of like, no, no, I'm a writer. No, I'm just a writer. You know. And that was it.

Yeah. Except my sons have never seen me do stand-up. Right. A couple years ago. Yeah. Wendy Lieben has her room at Vitello's. Yeah. And I said, my son's got to see me.

You know, and they brought all their friends. And luckily it was just a great hot room. And, you know, doing stand-up where it's not that important. Right. You're just so loose. Yeah. You're just having fun. You know, like if I had that attitude when I was doing stand-up, I don't know.

Maybe I could have been Klein. Maybe. You know. But it's so funny that because you said that like some people say like, you know, fortunately, I got sober before my son ever saw me drunk. But they saw you

and you did good. It went great. I mean they I felt really happy how their friends were screaming and laughing and you know

it was just the right thing to Oh great. I almost want to do it again just so they can see me bomb to see what happens. Yeah, don't get too excited. See, there's another side to this. Yeah.

So you pretty much from the Zweibel show just continued writing pretty steadily. Yes, I've been lucky. What were some of the shows? My favorite jobs were Futurama. I was there for six, seven seasons. Got an Emmy? I got an Emmy, nominated like six, seven times or something. One of my latest favorite jobs was working for the Trailer Park Boys.

Oh, wow. Yeah. They're up in Canada. They're in Halifax. Yeah. And their show's been on for like 20 years. Yeah. And they brought me in to say, can you make this into an animated show?

And I sat down. I go, here's how you do it. And they said, all right, come work for us. And I would spend months in Halifax, which was just nice. They treated me like a king, you know. Two-bedroom suite hotel and a giant per diem and first class and all that stuff. giant per diem and first class and all that stuff. And that's a case of like, they're, you know, in the middle of Canada, there's no producers,

no executives, no notes, and they know their characters. And it was just about sitting down, writing the show. Yeah. No bullshit. Yeah. You know. But you never got on SNL, huh? No. I, it's funny.

I, when I was a kid and won this Hartford, Connecticut comedy contest. That got you the audition at the improv. And then I passed at the improv. So I thought, well, I'm king. I must be fantastic. So I wrote a letter to Saturday Night Live. On your mother's typewriter again? Yes.

I said, you know, here's who I am. Here's what I've done. Yeah. And then I was, you know, here's who I am. Here's what I've done. Yeah. And then I was, you know, you should consider me. Look, here's a dollar. Yeah. I don't want to say where this should go, what I'm just saying. You should bring me in.

Yeah. And I got a form letter, a rejection form letter. But, again, it's like they actually heard me, you know. Right. Again, at this point, I'm still living at home. Yeah. But again, it's like, they actually heard me? You know, it was, again, at this point, I'm still living at home. Yeah.

But I never wanted to really, did I, there was a minute where I wanted to write on the show, but I kind of knew the pressure of that

after the Comedy Central thing. Yeah, right. And did you end up writing specifically for stand-ups ever again?

No. No? No. The closest thing was I worked with Dana Gould on his Dr. Z show. Yeah, oh, yeah. It was that podcast? It's the— Dr. Zaius?

Yeah. Yeah. Was it on TV? Yeah, it's on YouTube. So he's in full costume, you know. Yeah, yeah. Dana's fantastic because— Yeah, it's on YouTube. So he's in full costume. Yeah, yeah. Dan is fantastic because just backstage you can throw a couple of comedy fragments and shit out to him. And then he'll go on camera like he's been doing it for two years.

He is one of the greats, the unsung greats, I think, because he can do it all. He's just voices, movements. He's very heady. Like, he's smart. He can riff. He's great. Yeah. He's great.

It's always great to see him. Yeah, he's got a definite point of view. Sure, sure. And, like, I think that he's got some real courage in terms of personal darkness to kind of push the envelope on that. Yeah. And it was kind of fun to work with him, too, because, like you, I felt like I've known you forever, but yet I don't know you. But to actually sit down with Dana and figure shit out. But don't you feel that way with a lot of us?

I mean, there's a real sense of community. Like, you know, even back then when you were around New York and like Cohen's apartment and stuff, I wasn't completely in the loop. But that was my generation. And we were just all around. So I always feel like there's some sort of emotional connection between a lot of us of a certain generation or a certain place. And yeah, I don't know anybody really well,

but I don't feel uncomfortable. Right. You know what I mean? Well, because we've seen the same struggles. We've played the same rooms yeah we dealt with the same shitty when we were around we were just sitting around yeah and you know at a table at night yeah talking there's probably this 10 or 12 guys that uh i stayed close to touch with we in fact we have it started as a weekly night out at a bar

and we'd just hang out and get drunk like the old days. Yeah. Talk about all the old days. And then COVID came and it became a Zoom thing. So that's still happening. And then people are popping on.

Jonathan Katz jumps on. Gabe Abelson. Gabe Abelson. Yeah. Well, great, man. Well, it was great talking to you. This was a blast. And your kid wants to be a comedy writer.

Yep. We're writing something together for the first time, so we'll see how that goes. How is he? He has good natural instincts. He thinks visually, which you need to do. I just have to see how dedicated he is. That's kind of what it comes down to because if you want to write, you've got to find yourself writing almost like every single day. And also, it's like the entire business is changing.

The money's changing. The outlets are changing. It seems like self-generating is where it's at. I don't know what's happening. I just watched a documentary about YouTube. And I kind of felt it was coming that, you know, mainstream show business does not have, you know, if you can figure out how to build your own show business, you can do it. Yeah. I think that's absolutely where it's 15 years from now, it'll just be versions of that.

Like Dana's show, it's the same thing. There's GoFundMe, and then you get to do what you want, and you don't have to deal with executives, and it's no agents and managers. That's the future, huh? Yeah, I think so. All right, man. Well, good talking to you. Groovy. Okay, that was Mike Rowe. If you're just tuning in,

that was fun to talk to him. Fun to catch up. Again, you can get the book wherever you get books. It's called, It's a Funny Thing. How the Professional Comedy Business Made Me Fat and Bald. Yes, comedy. Hang out for a minute, people. It's a night for the whole family. Be a part of Kids Night when the Toronto Rock take on the Colorado Mammoth at a special 5 p.m. start time on Saturday, March 9th at First Ontario Centre in Hamilton. The first 5,000 fans in attendance will get a Dan Dawson bobblehead

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Visit Cozy.ca, that's C-O-Z-E-Y, and start customizing your furniture. All right, listen, if you want to hear two guys get very excited about Al Pacino, Charles Durning, bank robbery movies, and New York in the 70s, there's a new bonus episode up for Full Marin subscribers where I talk with Brendan about Dog Day Afternoon. There is something about

Al Pacino in this that was noticeable within the first two minutes of him being on screen that he is simultaneously a schlub and a movie star. And there's just no, there's no explaining it. Like it is, you can't you can't just

train someone to be that and have that kind of charisma you can do all the method acting you want but you're not going to come across as both a totally broken barely respectable person and at the same time feel the the magnetism of being a star. And he's able to do it. That was his thing. And I think like, because I think about this when I think about these guys, and I've talked about it before, that, you know, that as some of these method actors get older, they can really kind of rest on their sort of tics and quirks and habits

that identify them as emotional expressionists. But, but you know, Pacino later in life, I like, I always go back to that, that Kevorkian biopic on HBO. I mean, like he can really, you know, take the emotional risks, you know, in a very real way is still if he wants to, or else he's just going to like, Hey, what are we? Yes. Hoo ha. You know? Yeah.

He can, he can hoo ha his way through an entire movie. Now that's available now for all full Marin subscribers to sign up for the full Marin, click on the link in the episode description, or go to WTF pod.com and click on WTF plus. Here we go. This is kind of a neely sounding Telecaster bit of distorted business. Thank you. guitar solo Thank you. Thank you. ¶¶ Boomer lives Monkey and Lafonda

Cat angels everywhere It's alright, it's okay There's something to live for Jesus told me so