WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1461 - Jessica Chastain

Episode Date: August 14, 2023

Jessica Chastain is one of our most celebrated actors, with a recent Oscar win, a Tony-nominated Broadway run, and a highly praised performance as Tammy Wynette opposite Michael Shannon’s George Jones. As Jessica tells Marc, she’s always been a sensitive person and ever since she was the shy kid in high school, she learned to channel that sensitivity into performance. They also talk about how she owes a lot of her career evolution to Robin Williams and Al Pacino. This interview was recorded on June 14, before the SAG-AFTRA strike.Click here for Charity Navigator’s list of Hawaii Wildfire Relief organizations. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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It's hockey season, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So, no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice? Yes, we deliver those. Goal tenders, no. But chicken tenders, yes. Because those are groceries, and we deliver those too. Lock the gate! all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fucksters what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast wtf welcome to it. Today is a big day. Jessica Chastain is on the show.

I talked to Jessica Chastain. We did it before the strike. You know who she is. She's an Oscar winner for The Eyes of Tammy Faye. She's also been in movies like The Help, Zero Dark Thirty, Interstellar, and The Martian. She was just on Broadway performing in A Doll's House. And she's Emmy nominated for her recent performance as Tammy Wynette in the George and Tammy miniseries. She's amazing. A great actress, a fucking movie star sitting right in the room with me.

You know, sometimes I get a little overwhelmed because when certain actors or actors or people that I think are great or seemingly bigger than life or something, when they show up as humans, I still have a hard time accepting it. It was really, the entire conversation with Jessica Chastain was, it was electric to me because I just couldn't believe she was sitting there and talking to me. But she's just a person. She just happens to be a movie star, as far as I can tell, and a great actress. So that's going to happen for all you people. That is coming down the pike here shortly.

I'll be doing five shows at Helium in St. Louis, September 14th through 16th. Buy some tickets. I did all right there last time, but it doesn't seem like anybody wants to go this time. It's weird because it's hard for me to tell. Salt Lake City sold out four shows. I'll be at the Las Vegas Wise Guys on September 22nd and 23rd for four shows. And then October, I'm at Helium in Portland, Oregon on October 20th through 22nd for five shows. Those shows are selling out already.

You can go to wtfpod.com for tickets. And, oh, there's one other thing. I'm not entirely sure how it works, but I'm presenting Dog Day Afternoon at the American Cinematheque at the Arrow Theater on August 26th. I think you can get tickets. I don't know how exactly. You can go to AmericanCinematheque.com and find it. I don't know if that's a member thing or you can just buy a ticket. I think you probably just buy a ticket, but Dog Day Afternoon in a nice 35 millimeter print. As you know, I had quite the experience watching that recently, and now I'm going to, I'm excited about watching it again. I've been doing that lately, man. I've been watching movies again, like right after I watched them the first time.

And I don't know what this is all a testament to. I've been reading books. Well, I'm talking to a lot of people who've written books, but I don't know. It's good. Something in me is engaging and in a good way. Like last week on my sober birthday, I don't think I told you this, but I watched a movie that is sort of like, it's right up there with Michael Clayton for me, a movie that no one ever talks about, though now people talk about Michael Clayton a lot. And I'd like to think that I kind of started that. You know, I feel like if you go back and you check the timing on things, that I was really the one that brought the new attention to Peter Green, original guitar player for Fleetwood Mac. And I believe personally, maybe I'm being, sorry, I got it cold, self-centered, but, or maybe I'm just being grandiose, but I think I got the Michael Clayton conversation going a few years back. I think I was kind of responsible for the new momentum of Michael Clayton. do that with this movie, but Changing Lanes, which I believe came out in 2002 with Ben Affleck and Samuel L. Jackson, is a great recovery movie. Like on my sober birthday, I'm like, what am I going to watch? And I thought about it. I have seen Lost Weekend fairly recently. The Days of

Wine and Roses, I saw fairly recently. I've seen that many times. I didn't want to watch the Bill W. story. I didn't want to watch Clean and Sober with Michael Keaton, although the opening sequence of that is pretty gnarly when he wakes up next to a dead person. But I decided on Changing Lanes, and this is a movie I've watched very often. And I believe it's, I think it is some of the best acting both Affleck and Jackson have done in their entire careers. And there are some scenes in that that are just masterclasses. And I don't like using that word. I don't like using the word storytelling or the word authentic.

And, you know, trauma is starting to wear me out a little bit, but, but I'll, I'll say Masterclass only because of the way that, and Sidney Pollack's in it. Sidney Pollack is always amazing. And that's a, that's a sort of, you go right from Michael Clayton to Changing Lanes. I don't know why it wasn't a bigger movie, but here's the deal. Brendan, I'm going to make Brendan watch it. We're going to talk about it for some bonus material. We're going to do a session on Changing Lanes. It's quite a movie and I'll leave it at that because I got to talk to Brendan about it. All right. But watch it if you want to be up to speed when we do that bit of business. Before I forget, we should keep our

minds and charity and concern with the people in Maui if they need help. And you feel like helping if you're one of those people that is an impulse to wonder where to give money. We put a link in the episode description to Charity Navigator. They did a roundup of various organizations responding to the Maui recovery effort, everything from food banks to animal shelters to disaster aid. And you can select the one that's right for you. Just go to the episode description in whatever app you're using and click on the link for Hawaii Wildfire Relief. That seemed pretty fucking devastating and pretty fucking scary in terms of how fire works, how quick it spreads, where it's going to pop up. I know it's a concern for

us in California all the time, and my heart goes out to those people down there. In Maui, Salt Lake City, man, I tell you, out of all the cities in the United States that I wouldn't have assumed would be a big city for me in terms of my comedy, it is really one of the biggest cities for me in my comedy. Like, people come out to see me there, and they're nice people. They're just good audiences. And I have a sort of love for that city. I've talked about this before. Every time I go there, I have this experience. Whether people are Mormon or they're not Mormon,

the people that I have experienced in Salt Lake City are always very nice and very open to the work I do. And it was just, and Wise Guys is a great club. But this was a little creepy. And I'll share it with you. So after one of the shows, it must have been Friday night, second show. And I don't know if I handle these things right. And this is only in retrospect that I'm able to share this like this in a way.

So after the show, I'm walking out the front door to walk back to my hotel in the sort of dry heat of Salt Lake City. And there are two guys out front who I saw leaving the club. They were talking to two women. They must've been in their twenties. They, they looked pretty lit up, not drunk, not necessarily, you know, high, but just amped. And they had that kind of like, uh, one of them looked like just a pretty classic desert rat hipster dude. And I don't know if it's hipster. I don't know if desert rat necessarily is hipster, but he looked a little scruffy, looked a little lanky, you know, had a hat, had a little, uh, kind of a beard and mustache thing going, had, you know, a pretty intense, uh, energy, you know, kind of vibrating and that look

in his eye, like, you know, going to fuck things up, look. And then he was hanging out with a guy that is around the same age, didn't look as hard, looked like he was the, you know, the second banana, the kind of like, hey, man, you know, I don't know if we should do it. And then the other guy's like, fuck, yeah, we're going to do it. He's like, all right, dude, let's fucking do it. He was the second guy. But they were there talking to these women. And as I'm walking out, you know, they did not look like people who would come to my show on purpose. You know, this is my projecting, though. Like after the second show on Saturday night, there was definitely a bridal bachelorette party there who I'm sure did no research.

I just don't see that if you looked me up and you were like, where are we going to go for Cynthia's party for a bachelorette? You wouldn't look me up and say, this guy's going to be great for that. But I didn't talk to them. I just knew that they were probably, they seemed to be having a good time, but it had nothing to do with me. It was after the show. So anyway, I'm walking out. I see these guys and I'm walking by them

and they kind of, I can feel their energy on me. And one of them goes, so what are you doing now, man? What are you doing now? Now, this is after I do a show that was, you know, yeah, there was plenty of anti-antisemitism material in it. Plenty of declaration, self-declaration of Jewishness in it. So, okay. So this guy goes, what are you doing now? And then the other one's like, yeah, man, what are you doing? And I'm like, well, I'm just going to go back to the hotel, you know? And they're like, oh yeah? And I'm like, why? What's up? He's like, in the little bearded, uh, rattier looking one goes, uh, you sure you don't

want to do any hate crimes? You want to go do some hate crimes? And you know, it's a weird question. Do you know what I mean? Uh, even comedically, it's a weird question, but I took it as such. And I said, sure, man, you got any spray paint? Let's go find a synagogue. And I thought I'd just add to the joke that I had started. But then as I was walking away with the weird, uncomfortable laugh after that exchange, I thought, like, wouldn't that be how it would start? Like, wouldn't that be how it would start? Wouldn't that be like, you know, obviously I'm an old man and I don't need to hang out with these like, you know, 20 somethings who are all lit up for one reason or another with their, I don't even think they were their girlfriends.

But wouldn't that, whatever that tone was, that kind of cryptic sort of like, is he joking or is he not joking? Which is a fairly popular tone now. You know, that like, yeah, yeah, it's a joke, man. It or is he not joking? Which is a fairly popular tone now, you know, that like, yeah, yeah, it's a joke, man. It's a joke, right? Or no, is it a joke? Maybe Trumpy does that a lot. It's kind of a shifty two-sided thing, you know, like how's it going to land depends on who you are. And then I'll decide whether it was a joke or not. But what if I said, yeah, let's hang out. What are you guys doing? Would I have become the hate crime? I don't know. But obviously, I'm not going to hang out with them. But I just wondered, wouldn't that tone be roughly the same? I don't know. Maybe I'm projecting. Maybe I'm being weird. But it happened.

Maybe I'm projecting. Maybe I'm being weird. But it happened. So listen, this is exciting. This is exciting. And again, thank you, Salt Lake City. This is exciting. Jessica Chastain is here. She's nominated for an Emmy in the category of Outstanding Lead Actress in a Limited or Anthology Series or Movie for her performance in George and Tammy. This episode was recorded on June 14th before the SAG-AFTRA strike. So no, you can't get an ice rink on Uber Eats. But iced tea, ice cream, or just plain old ice? Yes, we deliver those. Gold tenders, no. But chicken tenders, yes. Because those are groceries, and we deliver those too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, alcohol, and other everyday essentials.

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So if your policy is renewing soon, go to Zensurance and fill out a quote. Zensurance. Mind your business. Nice to see you. What happened to your hand? Cooking? Yes. Sometimes I think I still have restaurant hands because I worked in a restaurant at some point in my life. Cooking in a restaurant?

Right. Just like a short order. No, I'm not a real cook. It was years ago. It was probably the last job I had, 19. I don't know. I was probably just out of college. But yes. But you know when you cook in a kitchen, you just think you can.

Yeah, of course. Yeah, yeah. Covered in. But I did it twice. I stuck it into a toaster. You stuck it? So stupid. Because I was dealing with some sort of badly melting vegan cheese.

That's the problem. That's the hardest part about the beef is the cheese. How long have you been a vegan? For almost 20 years. So that's crazy. I know. I was vegan before they even really had store-bought vegan cheese. Was it an ethical thing?

When did it start? It started, I think, because I didn't have a lot of energy. I wasn't feeling well. And then a friend of mine who is a famous actress. You can mention her name. Okay, Michelle Williams. We did on play together and she had this two-week food delivery program that they gave her at some award show. And then she wasn't going to use it, so she gave it to me and it was vegan food.

And that was it? Yeah, and that was it. Wait, so you felt better? Like the energy thing resolved itself? Yeah, I mean, not only was it vegan, it was it? Yeah. And that was it. Wait, so you felt better? Like the energy thing resolved itself? Yeah. I mean, not only was it vegan, it was like raw vegan, which that was rough. Crazy. That was crazy.

And I did like a week. And the first week, I was just so pissed off all the time. And I just felt like, what is this? Yeah. And then the second week, it felt like I was high. Really? I was like, all of a sudden, I was like, yeah, man. I just felt so happy and calm and cool.

Yeah. And then, so yeah, man. I just felt so happy and calm and cool. Yeah? And then, so yeah, then I finished the two weeks. Did that high last till now? Well, I'm not raw vegan anymore. Oh, you think it was the raw thing? I think so. I mean, and then when I finished, though, I went and had fish and risotto. Yeah?

And immediately I just felt tired and sick again. Really? I was like, gosh darn it, I'm vegan. Do you have a vegan sort of chemistry brain? Do you know how everything goes together? I'm not someone who thinks like I need a ton of protein because there's protein in everything. Cauliflower.

Really? Yeah. So I'm not, I'm never like, and also I'm not really, I mean I'm muscly, but I'm not like bulking up. I'm not like I need to be on a high protein diet. You never had to bulk up for a roll? Well, actually, I did bulk up for a roll and the nutritionist told me to eat a ton of quinoa.

Really? So that was for the vegan approach. Excuse me. Good one. Thank you. Because I was watching it. Like, it's funny though. Like, look, I mean, I loved the George and Tammy.

I watched it. I watched it all in a day, which is probably not recommended. That would be depressing. Yeah, it was a lot. I did not feel great after. But no, no, no, I'm big fans of both of them. So to fill in all those gaps around the sort of mythology of those two was great. But to get back to bulking up, there were moments,

and I've had it a couple other times where, you know, Michael, who I've talked to before, where he's wearing certain shirts where I'm like, wow, George looks pretty fit. I know. He goes back and forth from like older white-haired George with a little belly to like, oh, wow, look at him. Like he had muscles. I'm like, wow.

But that's just, you know, we all stay in shape and you get a role. You're not like, I don't know if you're going to. But you must have lost weight for that, right? I lost weight for the last episode because they had to do the side. You know, we did the flashback to the first episode. Yeah. And, I mean, once she had the port, she couldn't really eat anymore. She lost a ton of weight.

So that's when I fasted. I didn't really realize that she was that young when she died. 55? Yeah. Well, she looked like she was in her 70s. Right. And that old monster lived till he was 80-something. Oh, what a monster.

Oh, my God. I know. I mean, the stories about what happened after her death, it's just, you know, we have, because it's quite fascinating. So, of course, it makes sense that you would, someone would be like, well, let's add this. But you're like, I don't want to give that

any life of its own. Like what? Well, just the idea that her kids had no idea after she died and, you know. About what? That she died. What? Yeah, they found out from the news.

And then she was, there was like a party at the house with. Yeah. And she was lying there on the couch. Really? Hours later. Yeah, that everyone was like viewing her and her kids showed up. I mean, it was pretty, you know. Yeah.

It's pretty. Gnarly. Gnarly. Huh. I mean, you can read it. It's all in books and people have talked about it. Well, I mean, it's interesting to me because I watch acting more closely lately because I do some of it. Which, by the way, you're really good at it.

Well, that's very nice of you to say. I do what I can. I give it my all. I give it my all. But I could probably use a little. I always sort of casually get lessons from you, for instance. Yeah, but Andrea's pretty great, too. You probably were like, whoa.

The two of you guys together were amazing. Yeah, but I didn't really know her. And I knew some of her work. And when we first met, I'm like, all right. But all you can do is show up and do it. Do you know what i mean you leave yourself open to what's in front of you i find that if i get out of my own way yeah it tends to be better right and and i i did you know i did things you know i i did the the accent yes you did yes you did i i figured it i figured it but it was good because i'm naturally somewhat codependent and I knew it was kind of her movie.

So I was sort of like, I felt like I was there in service of her either way, in character, out of character. In character and out. That's so fascinating. Wow. But you really ground the movie, though, in a really nice way. You guys, it does, I know you say you're in service, but it feels like a partnership. Oh, yeah, definitely. Yeah, yeah.

I definitely felt bad for her as a character. But also, like, she's, like, very intense. Oh yeah, definitely. Yeah. Yeah. I definitely felt bad for her, uh, as a character. And, and, uh, but also like, she's like very intense. Yeah. So it's just sort of like,

there's a, there, I guess you've had it where you work with people. You're like, I'm not going to talk to her right now. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. I mean,

Mike Shannon could be like that a bit. Yeah. Yeah. Or it's just like, oh, he is in it right now. All right, let's keep,

I'm just going to, we're going to keep the energy of this, of this scene and let's go. What I thought, like in retrospect, the thing in it right now. All right, let's keep, I'm just gonna, we're gonna keep the energy of this scene and let's go. What I thought, like in retrospect, the thing I keep thinking about in that movie, because I try to kind of focus on these scenes where something really changes. And obviously those characters get old.

But when you guys are making out when you're old, it was really kind of the most vulnerable of all of it. That was my favorite love scene, actually. Right? Yeah, fully clothed. Like, there's nothing that felt like salacious. It just felt loving and sweet. Yeah, and given the past love scenes with those two,

one way or the other, and also it was, you know, totally clothed, and there was nothing to really lose anymore, and you didn't really seem to give a shit whether you were going to get caught. Yeah, I know. But you both sort of acted, you were acting the old movements. Like, you know, when you have the precedence up for how they used to do it, and then you're kind of like, you know.

I mean, it would be slightly awkward if you're playing someone throughout the years. And then, you know, Mike's got this white wig on. And now all of a sudden there's nothing changed about the way he's kissing or like holding. Yeah, that would be awkward. But I think that is like, I think that's probably the hardest thing to do. You know, once you get the character in place to age out like that and then to behave properly in that type of intimacy as that older version. Yeah. Yeah. I just kept thinking, because she was in so much pain. Right. Oh, right.

At that point in her life. I just kept thinking about that, like, where's the pain in the body? And, you know, when I don't feel good, I don't want to move very much, you know, in that sense. And that kind of like, I didn't think like, okay, I need to act older. I just kind of thought of like, okay, where's my pain in my body? What does it feel like? Okay. But I love him. And how do I express love when this also exists in my body? Right. And then the love for him is also a sickness. Totally. There's a lot of addiction in this show. Right?

Yeah. I mean, I mean, you mean, I'm a sober guy. So all of it is like this is relentless. Oh, my God. But everybody sort of changes. I don't know. Like, this is the second time in a fairly short window that you've played real people. And they're both kind of country people.

Yeah. I mean, actually, I play a lot of real people, like Molly Bloom. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Even in The Good Nurse. Yeah. I mean, I play, actually, I play a lot of real people, like Molly Bloom. Right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Even in The Good Nurse. Yeah. I play a nurse who tracked down a serial killer or helped get a killer to confess and stop him. But you spent time with Bloom, right?

Yeah, I spent time with Bloom. I spent time on The Good Nurse. Yeah. With George and Tammy, obviously, I couldn't spend time with Tammy Wynette, but I spent time with her daughter. Yeah. I spent time with Peanut Montgomery and Charlene. So you do these real people, but like when you're doing like just as, well, okay, so let's just stick with Tammy. So like where does it start, the process of what do you, like do you start with like emotional thing of her?

Her started because my process was really long with this one. Yeah. Josh Brolin actually approached me in 2011 at the Golden Globes. It was the first time I was ever there. Yeah. I just had movies come out. Yeah, and it's like all of a sudden,

he's this huge movie star and he's coming up to me, talking to me like he knows me, which also was like, what is happening in my life? He's very good at disarming you. Yes, he is. I never met him before in my life. When he came over here, he got out of the car and I'm like, oh, I in my life? He's very good at disarming you. Yes, he is. I never met him before in my life.

When he came over here, he got out of the car and I'm like, oh, I know this guy. Yeah, totally. He's just like a normal kind of dude. Charming motherfucker. Very charming. And he just came up to me and said, have you ever thought about playing Tammy Wynette? And I was like, no, but sure, let's do it. So it was his, did he have the project?

Yeah, and he's a producer on our project. Yeah. And so it was like for over a the project yeah and he's a producer on a project yeah um and so it was like for over a decade i was thinking about playing her and i kind of went i had to the first place i started was kind of getting ready rid of any preconceived idea i had about her because you know there was this whole movement of you know feminists saying that stand by your man is a song that's really bad for women. Yeah. Hillary Clinton came out and said, I'm no, you know, Tammy Burnett standing by my man. Sure, sure. And Tammy was like, why am I being brought into this?

You know? She was alive for that? Yeah. And then they ended up making up, her and Hillary. And I believe Tammy performed at one of Hillary's events. There was that much tension that it required a making up with? Oh, yeah. I don't know if it was on 60 Minutes,

but it was a big, big deal when Hillary Clinton said that. She used it as a reference. Yeah, to the Monica Lewinsky situation. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And she ended up standing by her man. There you go. Well, Tammy Wynette was married five times.

So I think for all these women to say, oh, this song is so bad for women. It's also, it's like how you're interpreting the song. And our series kind of goes into it. I mean, Stand By Your Man in our series isn't about standing by someone, standing with someone, you know, through difficulty, you know, when it's bad for you.

Although towards the end, Tammy really is in a bad situation in her life. So, okay, so getting back to the original question. So what did you focus in on when you dealt with the character of her? Like what's the first part of the work? That's the first. I had to get, you know, my own misconceptions of who she was. Did you grow up with her music at all?

Well, I knew Stan Byer, man. Sure. You know, that's pretty. But you don't come from a country music people. I mean, yeah, I knew Stand By Your Man. Sure. You know, that's pretty. But you don't come from the country music people. I mean, yeah, I do. I mean, Patsy was always in the house. Oh, yeah? Patsy Cline, yeah.

Because of your mom? Who had the Patsy? Yeah, I think it was my mom, my grandma maybe. Oh, yeah? Played a lot of Patsy. Yeah. And then I'm trying to think, was it Kitty Wells? I mean, I'm obsessed with Kitty Wells.

Yeah. And I'm trying to remember, was it Kitty Wells? I mean, I'm obsessed with Kitty Wells. Yeah. And I'm trying to remember if I, yeah, I don't remember who introduced me to Kitty. So I had like, I definitely had a foot in it. Yeah. Which is probably why I was so interested. Of course, Hank Williams, like everyone, you know. Yeah, yeah. But, and I love those harmonies.

I love like folk singer-songwriter music that feels like it, not that it costs something, but feels deep. Yeah, yeah. You know? Yeah, I definitely, sometimes it resonates. It's not that common. Yeah. You know, it's kind of, but like Kitty Wells. And the other thing about these country artists is they record new stuff until they're 100 years old.

Oh, yeah. They just keep doing it. And also it's that because they weren't used to really performing with sound systems. Right. Right? So they have that voice that just cuts into you. Was that true? Was that a real thing when he recorded He Stopped Laughing Today? No, that was the magic of writing.

But the reality, I mean, it was true, and there's a whole book that we read that it's amazing. I forgot what it's called. But the whole book is about the recording of that song. Really? Yeah, it's an amazing read. And about how long it took and how difficult it was and how Billy, in some sense,

really kind of manipulated a situation and really, you know, how it was like 600 takes, like over and over again, he would piece together line by line to get this song done. I thought it was pretty honest rendition of, you know, how record business works with those guys without fully demonizing them. Oh, completely.

It's rare that you are able to empathize a bit with the executives and studio people that are taking advantage of the artist, kind of. Yeah. Because there's a relationship there, but you always feel like the record execs the monster. Yeah. But even there's a line in our series where Belly says to Tammy, if I tell you you to sing three blind mice, you tell me what key, your only response is what key. And actually that's something Tammy said. Oh, really? Yeah.

Because it also gets to a point of like, for her, Billy Sherrill was, he saved her. I mean, we're talking about someone who really, in her mind. So she was like, there's nothing wrong that that man can do. Yeah. So she was like, there's nothing wrong that that man can do. And so there really was a sense that all these people were around her and George Jones, and they could see what they were going through. And they would write music that mirrored what their friends were experiencing. And then they would have their friends slash the artists sing them, and they would be these huge hits. But then every time they're performing it, it's just like opening up wounds over and over again.

But I mean, I love that kind of art. Sure. That's why I think you listen to He Stopped Loving Her Today or you listen to some of these songs. You can't not cry when you listen to that song. Oh my God. I love that song. It's so funny.

I heard a story about George Jones about how he used to close with that song. And there was a period there where this is some guy told me, his dad told him this, that depending on how drunk he was, like when he played that song, that determined the length of the show. Oh, wow. So then that song came on. You were like, okay. Yeah. Well, she had a little thing. We kind of alluded to it with Stand By Your Man.

Well, she had a little thing. We kind of alluded to it with Stand By Your Man. She had, especially towards the end, she had hand signals behind her that would let the band know if she, but we use it for something else. But in real life, it would let them know if she was going to hit the notes in Stand By Your Man. And if she wasn't, the backup singers would have to do it and she would go underneath it. Because of her strength or she didn't? Yeah, because she was, and also, I mean, YouTube's an amazing tool when you're preparing for something yeah because i look at original like when she first started singing stand by your man yeah it felt so kind of like wow like again cut through you yeah and then you see her all of a sudden as it evolved

yeah it's almost became like a performance act where she'd go into the audience and she'd sit on laps and she'd give kisses. And it wasn't really telling a story anymore. It was like connecting to the audience. So it didn't really, in some sense, it didn't mean anything at a certain point to her. But it gave the fans what they wanted. Exactly. And she was sort of hyper aware. And she knew.

She knew what that was. But, okay, so you were just on stage like a couple weeks ago? I mean, no. Saturday night was my closing night. Saturday night was my closing night. Saturday night was a closing night. Sunday night was the Tonys. Monday morning at 730, I was flying to LA because my best friends who had worked on this film for like four years, they had their premiere. What day is today?

It's Wednesday. So that was two days ago. So I went to their premiere to support them. What was that? The Flash. Oh, yeah. You saw that? Yeah, yeah. How was it? Good. So I went to their premiere to support them. What was that? The Flash. Oh, yeah. You saw that? Yeah, yeah.

How was it? Good. Really, really good. I mean, I was in Barbara Muschietti and Andy Muschietti. I was in their very first film they ever did. And I was in It, too. So I'm in two of four of their films. Oh, wow.

And yeah, they're like, I mean, yeah, they're family. I just saw that kid, Ezra Miller, play a young Dali in this new Dali Land movie with Ben Kingsley. Okay, oh, Ben Kingsley. Sir Ben. Sir Ben. Tomorrow, I'm talking to Sir Ben. You are? Yeah.

You know what? Here, I'll tell you a story about Sir Ben. I was heading to go do Zero Dark Thirty, and I saw him, I think it was at the airport, and I said I was going to Chandigarh, India. And he says, okay, let me, and he gave me a list of things to do. He said, when you go to India, take your toothbrush and put it in the water and brush your teeth with it. And then he said, drink whiskey every day, like all of these things to not get sick.

Really? I did not get sick in India. Were you? And you did it? I did. I did everything he told me to do. And I was one of the only people who did not get sick. Why did you go to India?

Zero Dark Thirty. Oh, you shot that there? Yeah, Chandigarh, India. Oh, for Pakistan? Yeah. Uh-huh. Because it was, I think, a three-hour drive from the border. Yeah.

And you didn't get sick? I did not get sick. Everyone else got sick? Yeah. Sir Ben, man. Wow. So you did, what was it? Not the Cherry Orchard?

What did you just do? A Doll's House. A Doll's House. Yeah, but I did Not the Cherry Orchard? What did you just do? A Doll's House. A Doll's House. Yeah, but I did also the Cherry Orchard like 15 years ago. Because I'm not a huge theater guy. But like, so Ibsen, like, is there a specific way to do that? What do you mean? Well, I mean, like, doesn't he write in a certain way that requires, isn't there something uniquely Ibsen-y about something that requires a certain

type of approach? Well, yeah, it was written 150 years ago. Okay. But we, but it's, because it was written in another language and, you know, we have, it's adapted by Amy Herzog and she's the first woman to adapt it for Broadway, which I find really interesting because it's one of the most famous feminist pieces of literature. I mean, the fact that 150 years ago, Ibsen wrote about a woman leaving her husband.

And the door slam at the end, they say it was the door slam echoed around the world. So yeah, it's been fascinating to have her kind of look at it. And our version was like, it's a doll's house, but she modernized the language a bit. Wow. So that's interesting that I guess you can round out the characters in a certain way if with a translation. Absolutely.

What I loved what she did is, you know, usually when I've seen a doll's house, it's like the character of Nora is this beautiful victim and is put upon about all these men in her life and um and torvald is this brute her husband and in amy's version nora participates in holding up the system that oppresses her so she's like helps create torvald by telling him he's great at everything right and you know and she does this little bird baby voice for him, you know, because he likes it, you know, to make him feel more like the man. Like, she's participating.

She kind of changes who she was for each person around her to try to make them like her. Right. And then all of a sudden, she's just like, this is bullshit. I'm not doing this anymore. I don't know who I am, but I got to go figure it out. And Torvald, in Amy's version also, he's not doing this anymore. I don't know who I am, but I got to go figure it out. And Torvald in Amy's version also, he's not just this brute. He's this deeply insecure man who feels like he's doing his best to try to be, you know, the leader in some quote unquote leader of this house, the man of the house. And in reality would be much happier if there was equality between the two and he didn't have to carry everything on his shoulders.

Oh, interesting. So it's like it's thematic, these insecure men. Yeah. I think so, honestly. I think sometimes it's like the dogs usually that bite you are the ones that are scared. Yeah. Oh, that makes sense. So, all right.

So you grew up in California, right? Yeah. Northern California. Where? Sacramento, Auburn, all around. Arden Fair Mall. Oh my gosh. Yes.

Do they still have malls? I mean, when I did, actually, when I did the Eyes of Tammy Faye, that's what I would do every weekend is I'd go to the mall and walk around. Yeah, because that's what she did. A dead mall somewhere? Well, no, actually in, where did we shoot that? North Carolina, Charlotte. That mall was bustling.

Yeah? Yeah, that was actually fun. I was like, oh my gosh, this reminds me of my childhood. Yeah. I like a mall. I used to do comedy in Sac at the Punchline. Oh, okay. That was in a mall next to a mattress store, and they put us up across the street from the Arden Fair Mall.

Oh, wow. So we'd go wander around. I think the Arden Fair Mall was the fancy mall. Was it? I think so. Yeah. Yeah, there was like, I'm trying to remember. There was three malls growing up, and Arden Fair was the one that had the expensive stores on it.

Oh, that was it, yeah. So you were put up at the expensive mall, the mattress store. Yeah, oh, good, near that. The mattress store was just a mattress store, but the mall maybe was fancy. Maybe there was a movie theater there, I think. So like Sacramento. Sacramento. Do you go there?

Not much more. I mean, I don't have family there anymore, but I worked at Sacramento Theater Company. I did Christmas Carol there for a few years. I went to see the Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat when I was like seven. My did Christmas Carol there for a few years. I went to see the Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat when I was like seven. My grandma took me there at Music Circus. Yeah. Was that the life? What was it? B Street Theater? Yeah. Was that the life-changing moment? Yeah. That's when I was like, oh, this is what I am. It was not sense of like, oh, I want to do that when I get older. It was like, this is what I am. And then not sense of like, oh, I want to do that when I get older. It was like, this is what I am.

And then I just started to harass my mom, begging her to take me to LA to audition for commercials. Did she? No, she never did. What did your mom do? Gosh, she did a lot of things. She was a real estate agent.

She was a bartender. Yeah. Real estate agent. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. The ladies do that sometimes. Exactly. My mother did it for a while, but she was too nice.

She couldn't move any place. Right. She was like, yeah, maybe you shouldn't buy this place. It's not right for you. Yeah, just not confident enough. And she bartended too? Yeah. And what about your dad?

I didn't grow up with my dad. Yeah. Yeah, so there was a lot. I was raised by single moms. Oh, yeah? I have't grow up with my dad. Yeah. Yeah, so there was a lot. I was raised by single moms. Oh, yeah? I have a stepdad who's a fireman. How is that?

Great. He's amazing. I ended up, I asked him when I was, he helped me move to college, and I asked him, I was like, hey, can I call you dad from now on? He's like, yes, you can. It was like a scene from a movie. But how long have you been in your life at that point? I think we met the summer of my eighth grade year. So you didn't call him dad?

What did you call him by his name? Mike. Mike? Yeah, because he was my stepdad. But you didn't know how long he'd be around either, I guess. Yeah, exactly. I had a lot of stepdads. You did? So I was like, hey.

But once I got to the point of like, yeah, I really like you. Hey, can I call you dad? When you're going to college. I know. I was like, of course he cried. Why wouldn't he? He'd hung in there. He'd earned it.

He did. He did. I love him. Is he still around? Oh, yeah. In fact, we're all going on vacation together. They're still together? Ah.

So I guess you could relate, like on some level, your mom and Tammy. Yes, yes, yes, absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah? And how's your mom doing? Great. She's now retired. She's a great grandma.

Not a great grandma. She is a great grandma. Grandmother. Grandmother. Oh, to your kids. Yeah. Well, that's retired. She's a great grandma. Not a great grandma. She is a great grandma. Grandmother. Grandmother. Oh, to your kids. Yeah. Well, that's nice. Yeah, it's good. We're all actually about to go on a vacation together, so it'll be really fun.

With your kids and your mom and everybody? My kids, my mom, my husband's family, my friends. Mike, too? Your stepdad, Mike? Yes, he's coming. Really? Yeah, yeah. We're all going together.

Wow. Yeah. That's why I was like, uh, because I don't quite know. Where they're at? Yeah, it's just, I stay out of it. I'm like, I'm not getting involved. And so I don't want to out anything on the show. I get you.

It's just a, I don't know. Yeah. I don't know how to answer it. You might as well mind your own business. Sometimes when you get to a certain age and the relationship with your parents change and you can actually be sort of surprised sort of like what yeah yeah exactly i don't need to know everything i don't need to be yeah but like so single mom situation that was so it was kind of lean very lean very lean yeah it was um yeah there were a lot of times where yeah i mean my mom really really worked hard there were three of us kids but i remember

i remember it being in i don't know if it was high school or junior high someone was talking about this play curse of the starving cast uh class the sam shepherd yeah the sam shepherd play yeah and um and she was taught the teacher was talking about like how the son in the play would go and look at the refrigerator was in the stage direction he opened the refrigerator and look inside and just stare and even though there was nothing in there yeah and i was like that was the first time i realized i was like oh my god that's us because i did that i would constantly go to the fridge and open the fridge even even though I knew there was nothing in there.

Yeah. But it was the first time I was sitting in school when she was talking about that and I was like, that's our situation. Oh my gosh, we're different. Huh.

Yeah. Yeah, you're part of a dark tragedy play kind of thing. I know. I mean, we weren't all of the tragedy of that play, but it was the first time I realized like,

wow, I mean, she's working really hard to get us fed but you know there are other kids that you go to their house and they have like yeah snacks yeah the fridge is full of food like holy moses fun snacks but what so what how was the school experience i mean when did you start acting in high school well no i i started as soon as it was an elective yeah you know because when you're in elementary school, even though I knew I wanted to do it, I was never, I don't know. I wasn't like the best student.

I was a bit probably obnoxious. Did you have friends? Yeah, I was kind of nerdy. Yeah? Yeah, I had like one time, you know, they permed my hair and I looked like Annie. And then we cut it off and I had really short hair, red hair. I was just kind of, I mean, I remember, it's so, I look back and I'm like, what a sweet, clueless person. I remember sitting in the cafeteria and eating orange peels and banana peels because it made people notice me.

Like in the school, like the other kids, they'd be like, oh my God, look at her. Like, I know it's terrible. You just wanted some weird attention. I just wanted like people to notice me, which is so. For being a weirdo? For being a weirdo. But at least then I was existing. You're something. I'm something.

You're like the weird star. You were the one who ate banana peels. I know, because then they could like go like, wow, she's, you know. I bet you there's people in the world that don't really remember or don't really associate that with you, but remember some girl from junior high that ate banana peels. Or was that younger? Definitely, it was younger than junior high. Because junior high is when I started to get attention for it.

Because I remember there was a guy that picked his nose with a crochet needle. Oh, my God. Thank God I never did that. Well, I mean. Thank God. But it's like one of those things. It's weird. Yeah.

So eating banana peels would be right up there with someone somewhere said, there used to be this girl. Yeah. And that was you. That was me. But what I would do, too, is I. The Oscar-winning banana peel eater. It probably was terrible. I just remember sitting in the cafeteria and everyone's going oh my god

look what she's doing but yeah but then in junior high theater was an elective you could choose like you know electives

and so I was like oh I'll choose the drama class and I got a lot of immediate there was an immediate sense of oh I'm good at this

because I always felt like I wanted to do it. I never had the opportunity in elementary school because you really needed to be the one, you don't audition, you just have to have good grades. And then I think I was like holding up like props, you know, sets and stuff. Sure. But in elementary school, you can't, what can you really do? Yeah.

Right. You want to be on stage and be cute and get laughs or whatever. Exactly. But you have no control over anything. No. But usually the kids, like if we're doing The Wizard of Oz or or whatever yeah like i wasn't getting dorothy or any of those parts you know i was like holding up you know yeah the castle why weren't you getting dorothy because you're because i wasn't there was those parts would always go to the kids who are well behaved

and who got good grades okay but then when it became an elective and it was like okay now we're working on monologues we We're doing scene work. And there was an immediate sense of like, oh, I don't have to eat banana pills. Right. Like this, now all of a sudden I'm like with my friend, these are, they're, everyone in this room is as weird as I am. And we don't have like, and that's like. We don't have to be weird on purpose to get attention.

Exactly. We could just like, you know, create art and like do stuff together. And I won like some competition. In junior high? Yeah. And I still have have a sweet trophy I wasn't even expecting it there was like we had to do these monologues and the teacher said there's this competition and I think because we were we were the state capital everyone came to Sacramento for it yeah it was off campus and I remember being there I did the monologue and I'm like, I think it was called Please God, I'm only 17. And it was about a girl who was driving the car and she was driving unsafe and then she died.

And she's like begging God to let her live again. And I was like crying. I was like doing this whole thing. And then when they called the winners, I won the trophy for like the best. So you were able to cry? Yeah. I was always able to kind of like just. Because I was wondering

about that one before I talked to you. Like there, there seems to be like, even with these characters, obviously it's part of acting, but, but like, it feels like that you're, you're able to maybe experience a vulnerability in these characters that you, that you didn't or weren't able to when as just a person. I wonder if it's, and I've met, I think Mike Shannon might be like this a little bit. I think there's a sensitivity. It's like a ultra sensitivity. Because also he's more vocal about this

in terms of like when he's in an area where there's loud, there's like a lot of people talking or touching at him, he starts to kind of panic a bit. But I have difficulty sometimes being in like even a concert where there's a lot of energy or sound or yeah i just feel um kind of like i don't have the protective layer okay right right so there's uh an open sensitivity that yeah so i can then just like sometimes when little kids are playing they believe it's real what's happening right i can sometimes people ask me are playing, they believe it's real, what's happening.

Right, right. I can, sometimes people ask me, especially Doll's House, because it was so emotional. It's like an hour every show I was crying and like doing this whole thing. And they would say, you know, how do you do that? What do you think about? And I'm always like, I think about what's happening. Yeah. And I just think about it and then I feel like it's happening to me. Right.

And I don't have to go, oh, let me go into my sense memory or let me use my substitutions. You can get present with the situation. It's like a little kid. There's an amazing audition for E.T. where it's the lead actor. I forgot his name. Elliot? Elliot. The kid auditioning for Elliot.

And you hear Steven Spielberg's voice in the back. He's not on camera camera but you hear him at the audition yeah and they say okay we're gonna do some improv with you and he's this little kid and they say okay and the guy starts saying we're gonna take your alien away and you know and then all of a sudden this kid starts saying no he's mine you can't take him I love him and he like starts crying and like really just like breaks your heart and then you could hear the adults in the room like what just happened and you hear steven spubler go you got the part kid i think that's it it's like i could do an improv or something and then i'll just believe

it's happening and then whatever happens in my body, I allow it to happen. So that's the thing that you always had? Always. I think it's just the sensitivity. So, right. But the ability to be present. Yes. And also not allowing the world to close me up. That's, I think, a big, big thing because I think there's a lot of things that happen in this world where we build walls to try to protect ourselves. And I'm quite vulnerable. And I can be in situations where I can be talking sometimes or speech

or someone could come over to tell me something and then I could get emotional when I don't want to. So I think it's that you don't allow the world to close you. Yeah, but how do you, like, I mean, but that, because I'm just, like, I have a sensitivity to, like, but I would include smell in the list. Yes, oh, I can walk into a house. Here's, I have a, my husband always says this about me. I can walk into the house and immediately be like, an animal went to the bathroom in the house. I can smell anything.

I can, and it makes me, he got, my husband bought a compost machine and it almost caused a divorce because every time I walked into the house, I was like, it smells horrendous in this house. I can't live here. I'm so sensitive to that as well. I had to switch treadmills today. Because of the smell? Someone got on the treadmill next to me. I just cannot take other people's cleaning products. Even if I'm hiking and someone's hiking down the hill and I'm like, why are you showering before you hike?

Why do I smell your soap? I try not to get resentful. I was concerned this morning because I had sort of a patchouli accident. I'm like, she's going to think I'm some sort of weird, stout hippie person. No, no. I will say, though, the second I sat down at the bike and I see a hammer in front of me and a knife, I'm like, what is going on? I just want you to feel safe over there. Those are your options.

So if you say something inappropriate, I could just. But but so that sensitivity, though, I mean, how do you. So instinctively, you know, you can engage it when you're acting, but like how you it's hard to make choices not to get crushed by the world. I mean, that's something instinctual, isn't it? I don't know. I mean, because like you seem to have like, you know, weathered quite a storm as a child. So I imagine you were put into positions that you were probably too young to be put in. Yes.

So, but I never, maybe because I was always interested in storytelling, I had a way to stay open and let it go through me. But you could make, you could choose to open it. Yes. Right. But also, I mean, I tell you like. Maybe you feel safer on stage.

I don't know if I feel, maybe. I mean, maybe because I feel like I can just be, I don't have to worry about how people are going to judge me. Yeah. Maybe that's it. Or coming in. Yeah. You know, like there's boundaries.

Yes. However, like when I, like I went to, for example, I went to Kiev last, you know. Yeah. And it was pretty, it was a pretty intense situation. And I was at a children's hospital. And I remember like even before that, just, I have friends who are Ukrainian. They asked me to go. Okay.

And I was like, yes, you know, I'll do whatever I can to, but I literally flew and like traveled forever with a friend of mine. Like with the war going? Yes. Okay. It was, it was pretty intense. Yeah. And, and I knew, and I was, I like had like a box of teddy bears with me and I went to this hospital and I was taught, and I remember like before I went in, I was like, do not cry. Like, you know, when you go in and see these kids, don't cry.

And I really had to, I have to almost switch something on. So I know, it's not that I'm closing myself off to the world, but it's like I have to protect other people around me. And if I'm too open around these kids, I don't want to freak someone out. I don't want them to be like, why is she making this about her? Do you know what I mean? So I do have, I am aware of how I move through the world, but I can also get surprised sometimes where I don't have that moment of like, okay, don't, you know, don't allow this to affect me too deeply. Okay. Well, but on some level, those decisions that you make, like even around going to that hospital,

are that's sort of acting in a way. It's acting and, well, yes, if acting for you is, which I think that's what I love about acting, because I think it's for me, it's about the other person. Okay. Because if it's about like, let me be open to you, let me take you in. Right. But then you also have to be careful of, I need to take, you know, when I was at the, I need to take care of you.

Right. So I'm not just going to be here and just be this open heart that's like. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Then like sobbing because I feel sad for your situation. Right. How am I going to, my goal now is to protect you. And also they're kids, so you. Oh my God, I can't, I mean, can you imagine?

So yeah, there's a sense. How'd that go ultimately? I mean, it was a beautiful experience and, you know, I mean, it's, why the fuck do we do this to each other? I don't understand. like the violence and wars and fighting all like, like all this, I have trouble sometimes reading the news. When you talk about having the world crush you, I have trouble sometimes even just every day. Yeah.

You just open your phone and you're like, Oh fuck, I can't. Is there a setting on my phone that could make this better news? Yeah. I mean, I will. And sometimes I'll avoid it until I fit.

You know, if I feel like today's not the day to read the news, I've had to, I mean, I had to And sometimes I'll avoid it until I, you know, if I feel like today's not the day to read the news. I've had to. I mean, I had to like, you know, as upset as I was about Rachel Maddow stopping her show, it was like maybe best for both of us. Because you're like, I need a moment. I can't stay in the narrative every day. I can't. I'm happy for the information, but I can't. It's relentless. I'm reading the narrative every day. I can't. I'm happy for the information, but I can't.

It's relentless. Relentless. No, no, no. I know. And then so because you're a sensitive person, you don't have the like, it'll affect you more than it might affect someone else because it goes in. But yeah, but for me, like, you know, like I do comedy and like, you know, I'm kind of an aggravated guy and I hyper, you know, I was just talking about it on the podcast today for tomorrow, the introduction about how like I about how I had this realization that I might be addicted to, like I worry and I panic and I'm full of dread.

Do you have anxiety? Yes. Yeah, yeah. But there was some element to that where I realized, because a lot of worry is a waste of time. Oh, completely. But the thing is, is that if what you're worrying about doesn't, you know, manifest, there's a tremendous relief there. And I realize I think I'm just a relief addict. When something finally goes well, you're like, ah.

Well, yeah, well, that's catastrophic thinking. If you think the worst and it doesn't happen, it's fine. But I worry about little shit. And it's like, whatever, like, you know, if, like, what was I worrying about the other day? I worry about my cats unnecessarily. I don't have kids. But I can worry about, it's sort of OCD-ish in a way. Like, I could worry about how this was going to go.

Like, I just, I'm driven by dread. But when it doesn't happen, it's sort of like, that was great. So, but that's what you're working towards. Like, can I have that without the panic, dread, and worry? But isn't that in some sense also, also like why people go on roller coasters? Sure. It's why people do drugs. Exactly.

It's all about that fleeting relief. Yeah. The sense of like I lived through it. Yeah. I was able to get to the other side. But with roller coasters, you do get the terror of the roller coaster, that moment where you're dropping. But then you're like, I'm going to handle this

and you're going to enjoy it. Yeah, it releases. Doesn't it release something in your... Everything does. Like, I don't know. Yeah. So, okay, so you win the award for the monologue in junior high.

Okay. And you put, is that next to the Oscar? It's actually, well, nothing's because we're in the process of renovating and moving and stuff. So nothing's done. But yes, it will absolutely be right next to the Oscar when I'm done. Renovating.

Where are you, New York? Yeah. Wow. Have you ever experienced like a full. I can't do it. I'll leave the house before I do that. It's. I can't.

I mean, I couldn't. That's why I moved into this house because I'm like how long is that going to take and i can't my anxiety won't allow it four years come on four years it better be fucking amazing i mean literally uh it's everyone says it'll be twice as much and twice as long i mean i just don't understand how it's actually allowed to be this way. I don't understand how you can say, okay, I will buy this bill of goods for this much money. Yeah. And then they tear something apart and then they go, oh, by the way, it's four times

as much. What are you going to do? What are you going to do? I just don't understand. I was like, I remember talking to someone. I was like, how is this allowed? Yeah. Like, I don't understand.

And everyone just says, like, that's how it works. Is it almost done? No. But wait, how do you become such an amazing actress? So after junior high, what do you do? I went to high school. I did a lot of plays in high school. Then I went to Juilliard.

I mean, I was a high school dropout, actually. You didn't finish? No, I didn't. But I wasn't, you know, I wasn't dropping out to do drugs or drink or anything. I was actually not going to school to read Shakespeare. And I failed P.E. twice. I mean, I literally could have cared less.

How were you with languages? Not great. Not great. Yeah. Not great. But I, and then, so I started working in regional theater. Didn't it drive you crazy not to graduate high school? Well, I went back and graduated. When?

I got an adult diploma when I decided I wanted to go to Juilliard. Oh. Because you needed to be a high school graduate. So you didn't, so after high school that it was just, would you do plays or work or? Yeah. I worked at a restaurant. I worked at the Lucky Cafe, which is a greasy spoon, you know, greasy diner. And I worked at River City Cafe in Sacramento and. Yeah.

You're in Sacramento a long time. But then I, I was fortunate to work at like Sacramento Theater Company. But then I was fortunate to work at Sacramento Theater Company. I played Juliet at Theater Works, which is in Palo Alto, I think. And the guy who was playing Romeo had just been accepted to Juilliard, the Juilliard School. And I was like, wait a minute. I don't know that he's that much better than me. Maybe I could go.

Yeah, it's interesting but like the idea of art though artist theater like because like i think in any town you're in that has any theater that when you go even if it's bad there's a humanity to it completely and you can feel it immediately even if it's bad the humanity is that you're seeing is unintentional. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Because they're trying. They're trying. And sometimes that's even more fun to watch. I mean, they write plays and movies about that. But art as

that kind of human experience, like not just standing in front of a painting or something that's overwrought, but theater in particular, there's a vitality to it, no matter what. Well, it's movable. Yeah.

Moment by moment. And it's raw. It's vulnerable. Exactly. Like, even if they're trying not to be. Yeah. I mean, there could be a dog that starts barking in the middle of the show. Sure.

Someone could forget their line. The light doesn't work. Oh, yeah. It's the best. Yeah. And all of a sudden, you're like, I have no idea what this experience of life, how it's going to open to me. And that's what theater is. Like, I heard a story that on stage, someone had to take this piece of paper, and it was like this special contract, whatever.

Yeah. And it accidentally, in their hand, it flew into the audience. And they went to try to get it from the audience member, and they just pretended they didn't have it. Oh, my God. So then they're on stage, they're like, okay, let me just try to create something new. Has that happened to you? Like that kind of shit in a big way? Something falling into the audience.

Or just like, you know, like I know that. My dog came on stage once. Oh, that's good. About like 10 years ago. He's got three legs, and he like. That's a scene stealer. Oh, my God, there was no way. It was, and also he like jingles when he walks

because he hops. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I could just, as I was acting, I heard him jingling. It was like, it was on Broadway. Oh my God. Acting with David Strathairn in a very dramatic scene. And someone opened my dressing room door and it was jingling. And I was like, oh no, he's coming this way. He's coming this way. He's going to be on stage soonajing and it just stops and I hear the audience gasp and I'm like he's right next to me so I say a dramatic I don't look down I just I look at David I say a line and I start walking off the stage and I'm in like a full period costume with like a hoop skirt it was the heiress okay yeah so it's like you you know, a long time ago. And then I hear the jing-a-jing-a-jing as I'm walking off stage. And I pick him up and I hand him to someone.

I say, put him in my dressing room. And then I go back on stage and I finish the line. And David's face was so sweet. It was like, mm-hmm. And I carried him out for a curtain call. Oh, good. So everybody had a good experience? Yeah.

I mean, they were excited. I mean, the audience, when something like that happens, for the actor, like, this is the worst experience of my life. But the audience is like, I was there for that. Yeah, for the dog. But, okay, so how did you get into Juilliard? I auditioned. I mean, I was in San Francisco, or I drove to San Francisco to audition. It was like you had to have two monologues, a contemporary and a dramatic.

I drove to San Francisco to audition. It was like you had to have two monologues, a contemporary and a dramatic. And I did Juliet's Gallop Apace, which is basically this monologue that's like, you know, hurry up, son, and set. Because then the moon will rise. And I've just married Romeo. He'll, you know, climb into my window and we're going to have sex. Like that's what the monologue is. And it's written very, the language is, it like builds it. Like, I mean, it's quite, in my mind, sexual.

Yeah. And you never really see it that way. Yeah. I mean, because it's like, come Romeo, come night, come thou day and night. You know, it's like, it's quite. A lot of coming. Yeah, lots of coming. And so I performed it like that.

And I remember that the teachers, it was like John Sticks, Michael Cahn, and Liz Smith, who, you know, all of another generation, sitting behind a table. It was like the scene in Flashdance, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I do the monologue, and I remember, and I'm like lying on the floor,

and I remember Michael Kahn just kind of looks at me and smiles, and he goes, did you have fun, Jessica? I was like, yeah, I did. He's like, okay, thank you. I was like, that's it? All right. So I left, and I was like, they either hate me

because I like really like did something crazy, or that was great. And then I got a call back and I came in for the call back and they didn't have me do anything else. They just interviewed me. They're like, what do you know about New York? What do you know about the school? I think they were like, this chick is crazy. Maybe crazy is a little good for acting. Maybe. Yeah. I mean, it's like, but what did Robin Williams have to do with it? So I got a scholarship. So my first two years, and you know, it's expensive to live in New York and go to school.

So I had a ton of loans, you know, Sally Mae, whatever, student loans and grants and all that stuff. And then my final two years, I got the Robin Williams scholarship. So he would give a scholarship to a student in need. And then also that the teachers would recommend. And that paid for everything. All my schooling, my apartment, flying home for Christmas. How did they decide on you? I don't know.

You applied for it? No, because they give it to a third-year student. And it's for the third and fourth year. and it happens at the end of the second year. I mean, the end of my second year, I played Arcadona in the Seagull. Were you crazy? Because the people I've talked to from Julia are Tim Blake Nelson. Like, there's a very competitive, crazy shit, and you don't know who's going to get cut or why. Yeah, I mean, I was more—when you talked about anxiety and worrying, my first year, I was terrified because I'm the first person in my family to go to college.

It was so expensive to go to that school. I had taken out so many loans and, you know. And at that point, this is with the firemen and your mom? Yeah. Yeah. And which, but also there's no way to be able to afford all of this. I had two sisters and two brothers younger than me. Oh my gosh.

And yeah, it was pretty intense. And then I just thought like, if they cut me from this program, all this money is down the tube. So first year I was very, I'd like would like, I'd like TMJ. I was so scared that that was going to happen. And then I started to kind of calm down my second year.

Yeah? Yeah. But did you ever meet Robin? The saddest thing is I wrote him letters to thank him every year. And then I was living in L.A. right in the beginning. I got out of school, and I was talking to someone about it. I was at a director's meeting at the Fred Siegel cafe or something, you know, restaurant. And he was asking me this story about the Robin Williams scholarship and all this stuff. And then as we're

talking, Robin Williams comes into the restaurants and sits down at a table next to me with other people and they'd already ordered food. He sits down and starts eating. And I'm like, oh my God. And he says, you have to go over and talk to him. And I said, okay, okay, I will. I'm going to wait until he's done with his meal because I don't want to be rude. And then before the server came to grab the dishes, he stood up and kind of ran out. So I think he must have been late for something or whatever. I jumped up to kind of chase him out of the restaurant. And I was like, no, I don't want, that's crazy. I got to like, I don't, that feels inappropriate. It's such a regret. Oh, I bet. Because that was the only chance really I

had to meet him. And so now I tell people, I was like, listen, if you, if anyone ever sees me and they want to say hi, do it, you know, like it's okay. Maybe like wait till I'm done eating. If I'm running out of a restaurant, you can run with me. Sure. A week ago, I was crossing the street in New York and I was in a hurry and someone's like, oh my God, I was like,

walk with me. And so we like walked for 10 blocks, you know, having a conversation. So yeah, you know, just come over and say hi because that's a huge regret

that I have that I didn't get the chance to think of him in person. Well, yeah, he was a sweet guy. But, but the whole, that policy of saying hi,

it's like you might get some weirdos, but, you know. I mean, I was the weirdo with the banana peel, so it's going to take a lot to weird me out. So after Juilliard, you just stayed in New York? I got a deal. So we were the first class to do an L.A. showcase. Who was in your class? Anyone we know? Michael Urie.

Did you ever watch Ugly Betty? Yeah. He's an actor from Ugly Betty know? Michael Urie. Did you ever watch Ugly Betty? Yeah. He's an actor from Ugly Betty. Jess Weixler. Did you see that movie Teeth? No. It's about vagina dentata. Oh, I think I heard about it.

Yeah, she's the lead actress of that. She's my best friend. So yeah, there's a lot of, I've worked with a lot of, there's a lot of people, maybe three or four that are still working. That's great. Yeah, but I was there with,

Anthony Mackie was there. Oscar Isaac was there. Oh, so you know Oscar that long? Oh, yeah. Oscar and I have known each other for like 20 years. So when you work with him, it's like, oh, yeah. You did stuff with him in college? Well, the crazy thing is we never worked together in college. However, my boyfriend in college was his best friend.

Oh, wow. So I got to know Oscar, which is the amazing way for a woman, I guess, to become friends with a man. It's like there never was anything like, oh, are we going to date? Are we going to, like, we never had,

or like, let's make out one night. We never had that because my boyfriend was his best friend. Right. So it was always just like he was like a brother, you know? Right.

But I also, like, heard all the bad behavior. I saw all the bad behavior. Well, yeah. You can't tell Oscar I told you this. Yeah. Or Oscar would just tell me. Do you know what I mean?

I mean, I just saw it all. And so we became really close. And then when we did scenes from a marriage, that was awkward because it was like, oh, we have to kiss in this. Oh, yeah? Yeah. We never kissed before. It was so weird. Was it?

Yeah. It was like, in the beginning, I was like, I don't know how this is going to work. Oh, yeah? Yeah, we never kissed before. It was, like, so weird. Was it? Yeah, it was, like, in the beginning, I was like, I don't know how this is going to work. Just your pals? Yeah. That's hilarious. But then my ex-boyfriend, who I don't talk to anymore, starts all of a sudden texting me and texting Oscar. Really? Yeah, we were working

together because he started to freak out. So, like, a boyfriend from that long ago you don't talk to anymore? That must have really went badly. Yeah, it went terribly. Oh my God. Oh yeah. Not a good relationship. But that most violent year

that movie you did with him. Oh, we did kiss in that. Sorry, we kissed in that. See, I forgot. Yeah. I mean, we were like. But it was kind of, but those characters

were kind of weirdly cold. Yeah. I mean, we did have a scene though. I remember we have a scene in that movie where we kiss in the bathroom. And I remember though. I remember we have a scene in that movie where we kiss in the bathroom.

And I remember thinking that moment because we had a kiss. And I remember saying to him, you're a good kisser, Oscar. Which is like, I don't know. Is that a weird thing to say? It's probably weird. But so, yeah. But I completely forgot. Yes, we did kiss in that movie before scenes from America.

That movie is a weird movie. Yes. It's very much like a throwback to like a Sidney Lumet film yeah yeah like I kept waiting for something I don't know what I thought was going to happen but it kind of just moves along and it was one of those movies that after I was done with them like did I not get that movie you're like where's all the violence it's the most violent. I need to see the violence. Yeah. I love that film, though.

I love that it's like. You know, I love the way it looked. I love the characters. Like, I don't know. I don't know if I was expecting violence, but it's an odd sort of. The whole. It's one of those movies where I'm like, why would somebody write this movie? In the sense of like, that guy was like, why that job?

Why that? Like, what was that? I think it's a. I think this director is very interested in American culture and capitalism because he did Margin Call. OK. I think his dad works in finance. He kind of grew up in that world. Yeah.

And so that film, especially Oscar's character, was an immigrant. Uh-huh. My care. I mean, I'm the daughter of some, you know, like the way things used to be. This is how you got to handle things.

He's trying to live an honorable life. Is it possible to do that with American capitalism? And also in that racket, wasn't he in like waste or something

or cement or... Oil or gasoline. Yeah. It's very kind of esoteric, strange business. Yeah. But I think

it wasn't the heating oil. Okay. But still, that's very interesting. Yeah, sure. You know, like people were stealing the trucks. Yeah, But I think it wasn't the heating oil. Okay. But still, that's very interesting. Yeah, sure. You know, like people were stealing the trucks.

Yeah, right. That's right. And the mob was sort of involved there. Or no, I wanted the mob to get involved because I was the daughter

of a... Yeah, a dubious kid. And he's like, no, we're going to live honorably. And then at the end of the film, you're like,

hmm, I think he's realizing that's not the way he can survive in this industry. And then it was weird because he showed up in James Gray's movie, The Armageddon Time. Yes, I did. As Trump's mom.

Sister. Sister. Yeah, Marianne Trump. That's a funny movie. I love that film. It's great. Yeah. Yeah.

He actually, James Gray asked me to do it. Oh, my gosh. Amazing. We kind of became friends. Yeah. I love that guy he said you know he's like it's a you know it's a one part one scene role i didn't even read it i said i will do it and i'll do it for free like it's because i once i found out it was kind of like based on his childhood stuff yeah i'm all about like i would love to be a part of something

that helps someone process yeah and tell a story that is deep to them. Yeah, yeah. So I don't know what your schedule is. You probably got to get out of here. Where do you got to be? You got to do a Q&A? No, not until tonight. Oh, what's that about?

SAG? I think SAG Foundation. Uh-huh. I think so, yeah. And you just hang out? Someone moderates? I think, yeah, it's Mike Shannon and I. Oh, Mike's going to be there?

Yeah, for George and Tammy. So we're going and I think Rachel Moore, our music producer, which it's so badass that she's the music producer because she spent a lot of time in Nashville. She's worked on a lot of albums. She worked with T-Bone Burnett for a very long time. Oh, yeah. And it's very, you know, it's not often you get to work

with a female music producer and supervisor in film and television. And it's very, you know, it's not often you get to work with a female music producer and supervisor in film and television. And we kind of brought her into this. She'd never really done it before. Oh, it's great. Yeah. All that stuff was great. She did such a good job. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, I, well, I mean, it's, well, like, I know you've talked about it publicly a lot. There's not, you know, women in general don't show up in these jobs as much as they should. Yeah. I mean, they're not really afforded opportunities. You know, I mean, they tend to work side by side or helping, you know, a successful male producer.

But for her, you know, T-Bone really supported her in doing this. He seems like a solid cat. Oh, yeah. He's great. Yeah. He just was on. There's this new Dylan thing that he was. Oh, yeah. The re-recordings. Oh, yeah. He's great. Yeah. There's this new Dylan thing that he was. Oh, yeah.

The re-recordings are amazing. It is kind of. I always want to resent these guys that keep producing things. It's like, enough. We get it. You're very good at what you do. But there are these weird interpretations of his own song. And because he's Bob Dylan, you've got to be like, why what is he you know what does this mean at this point in his life

like this weird mysterious dude yeah but i also like i mean isn't now i don't know if it's changed since it was i was first brought to my attention isn't in a situation though where it's kind of like not i mean it's looking at society and this idea of streaming and like this idea of consumption and that he, is it the situation where it's going to be auctioned off? It's like one record? No, I think it was during, I think there's a documentary alongside of it that they shot it down in like a warehouse in Santa Monica during COVID because he couldn't tour. So he pulled these guys together. I don't know where it all goes or why, but I just heard the record

and I didn't want to like it because I'm like, oh my God. So they played the music in the documentary? Yeah, yeah. I think it's of the playing of the music. I haven't watched it yet. That's interesting. But like he put out that record a couple of years ago

and I'm like, it has the 17 minute song on it. It's fine. You know what I mean? But I think, and we're going to have to look this up because I believe T-Bone told me a year ago or maybe a year and a half ago that he's doing something right now with Dylan

where there's a record that he's going to auction it off and it only has a certain amount of plays before it won't play anymore. Oh, so it's like an NFT? So has, and it has a certain amount of plays before it won't play anymore. Oh, so it's like an NFT? So yeah, or it's like a paint, it's like, you know, the person who bought it, like this is a special thing you have. It's not like it'll live forever.

Right. Yeah. But you can't play it. You can only play it like a hundred times. Oh, a hundred times? I don't, listen, I should know more about this. That's all right. It's not your job. So you sang all the Tammy stuff?

Yes. Everything in the show, yeah. 95% of what's on the show is us singing on set. And then there's also going to be a vinyl, which is not us on set. It's like a more finished version that was done in a studio. And this woman who did the music producing.

Yes, Rachel. Yeah, like what was her task basically it was so intense man um so she was in charge of all of that so she we were all together when we did all the studio singing um working with the band all the guys in the series are actual session players from nashville uh and then what she would do this is this is beyond what I really thought I ever wanted to do in my life. And I will never do it again. But the mics are hot. So you get on stage to do this.

You have hundreds of extras. You do one take where they're putting the music through everything. So the extras hear your voice, vocal, and they hear the music. Then for every take from then on, we had an earwig in our ear they hear the music right then for every take from then on we had an earwig in our ear that played the music and the only sound in the room was our cold vocal wow because like so like when you're standing by your man or something you're like that's not what i really want to happen in front of people and it's like okay i'm gonna i'm gonna do this for 10 hours today i'm sure maybe hopefully we we'll get a take that is usable.

But that means also there's going to be a lot of times that, you know, I'm going to like have egg on my face or, you know, there's going to, it's embarrassing. Like just like when you're shooting a scene, you're going to forget lines, you're going to do something. So it was, it was quite stressful. And the audience was, was very sweet and very kind to us. But Rachel was in charge of all of that. She needed to get the clean vocal, which meant she couldn't have music with it. Sure. Yeah, that element of embarrassment.

Oh, Jesus. And that's probably why the kid in junior high that was like, I'm going to embarrass myself. To transcend it. Yeah. I've got to be willing. There's got to be some sense of, all right, we're going to talk about something. There's the Pacino versus De Niro conversation. Who are you?

Well, it's weird. I like them for two different reasons. Okay. What are the two reasons? I think that Al Pacino is still capable of taking risks. Yes. And I think Robert De Nro has kind of settled into something and what i think and i yes i mean they're both icons sure they're great yeah what i

am so interested in with acting is someone who's willing to humiliate themselves yes yeah no that that's pacino's definitely you? Sure. When you see someone like, even with Dog Day Afternoon, he had just done The Godfather. So raw, though. So raw, Dog Day. So good. But can you imagine? He's this actor who's like, this huge thing now because The Godfather. And he's like, I want to play a man who's robbing a bank to pay for a sex change operation for my boyfriend.

Yeah. Like, at that time, no one thought that was a good idea. Sure. Right? And he's like, you know what? I am willing to put myself

out there as an artist and it's okay if people don't think I'm a man enough or they don't think I'm this enough. And that's what's interesting to me.

I think he still does it. I think, like, you know, there was a couple of those HBO bio things. Oh, yeah. His Kevorkian, that thing, that's amazing.

Oh, my God. Amazing. Amazing. And, you know, the Philorkian, that thing, that's amazing. Oh, my God. Amazing. Amazing. And, you know, the Phil Spector thing was okay, but, like, I really feel that with him

that, like, you know, for years, he kind of got into this zone. I saw him do American Buffalo in Boston. Oh, wow. Shortly after he did Scarface,

and I swear he was still a little Cuban. He hadn't quite shaken the Tony Montana. You know, there was a little. Was the audience like loving it though? Yeah. I don't know that he's doing on purpose,

but I'm like, I think there's a little Tony Montana. It was okay for that character. Yeah. But then he got into that, like hoo-ha, you know, like there was this thing that like,

I started to worry about him because a lot of those old method guys, they just become a collection of ticks and habits that they can rely on. And people stop saying no to them or stop directing them. Yeah, but both of them, surprisingly, oddly, that movie that De Niro did with Anne Hathaway, The Intern, he's really good in that. He's great at comedy. But he's very sweet. Meet the parents. But it wasn't broad comedy. It was an older guy that was experiencing grief and wanted to help this woman. And he used to work in the building.

So it's comedy, but he's playing a sort of sweet, kind of heavy-hearted guy. And he can still do that. Oh, totally. But Pacino, you're like, well, it's going to happen. You have no idea. He's just willing to put up. You work with him, right? He's the one who started my whole that. Oh, totally. But Pacino, you're like, well, it's going to happen. You have no idea. He's just willing to put us. You work with him, right? He's the one who started my whole career.

Really? Really. It was, I was, because I, you know, I had done the Cherry Orchard with Michelle. We were talking about vegan food earlier. I want to talk to her. I love her so much. Yeah, she's great. I was doing, I was actually in Australia visiting them. And I got a call that Al Pacino wanted me to audition for Salome. I was like, I was actually in Australia visiting them and I got a call that Al Pacino wanted me to audition for Salome.

I was like, what? How is that even possible? And so I went in to audition for Salome. And from the moment I walked in, Jeremy Strong was my reader. Oh, wow. Yeah. Which is crazy, you know, because we were both like these friends. We were friends and we were struggling actors.

And we started at the beginning of the play, Salome's entrance. And I could hear him in the audience go, wow, she's amazing. Like all this, and as I was acting. With that Pacino wow, wow. Wow. Yeah. And as I was acting, I was like, this is,

not only was the first time I was like, oh my gosh, this is the first person to really take me seriously, but it's Al Pacino. So yeah, he started my whole career. Oh, wow. Are you friends still? Oh yeah. He came to see me in a doll's house.

He goes, oh, you're like my daughter. Oh, I'm so proud of you. It was so sweet. And then a friend of mine in the show was so excited to meet him. And Al goes over to him. He goes, you, that voice you project so well. My friend was like, he only talked about my projection. That's funny.

He's probably being too sensitive. Yeah. I was like, listen, Al wouldn't have said anything to you if he didn't like what you were doing. So what are you working on now? Oh, gosh. So I just finished the play on Saturday. Of course, because there's the strike. Oh, you can't do anything. Yeah, yeah. We're taking a, there's a

holding pattern for a while, but I'm going to be doing when we're all, you know, ready to go. I'm going to go do a mini series called The Savant. I have another, I'm going to do a film with Michel Franco, who's an amazing director, you know, Mexican filmmaker. Yeah. Yeah, so I've got...

Any more Shakespeare? I would love to. You love it? I love Shakespeare. I mean, it's interesting. I might do, now that I've done this play, I'm like, maybe I'll go back and do a play every couple of years in New York. Why not? Why not?

Right? Yeah. If you like it. I love it. Yeah. So I think maybe in 2025, I'll do something else. Also Doll's House. I was thinking it could be fun to tour that a little bit next year.

Maybe take it to Dubai, if they'll let us. Huh. That could be interesting, right? I don't know what's in Dubai. Why Dubai? Because wouldn't it be fascinating to have a play where the woman... Oh, about the woman. Yeah, sure.

I like to be a little provoking in my work. Yeah, why not? That'd be amazing. You know? Yeah. Well, it was great talking to you. Oh, thank you so much. So good to talk to you. And I'm so glad I didn't have to use the hammer. Well, it was great talking to you. Oh, thank you so much. So good to talk to you.

And I'm so glad I didn't have to use the hammer. Yeah, no one's had to use the hammer. I'm going to try to. And also the fact that the handle is like, it's shaved down to like a point. Well, it's a broken hammer and I think it comes from like some part of my past. Like, I don't know where, like I didn't own that hammer when it was whole. You didn't? Like it showed up somewhere and I I thought, what a weird thing.

I don't know why it has stayed in my life. And you set it right in front of your guests. Yeah. I never really think about it. It made sense in the old studio. There was so much clutter. So much of my life was everywhere. But when I set this desk up in here, I'm like, well, I want to put some of the stuff that was in there.

Yes, of course. But in this environment, which isn't cluttered, it's a little odd. Everything takes on a lot of meaning. Well, this with this huge knife. That was left in my old apartment by a woman who was subletting it who had a boyfriend who collected knives. Oh, wow. So there's the back story on some of this stuff. The top, I'm not sure where that came from.

It's kind of like a rainbow. I got these on a beach in Kawaii some weird beach it's like it's pieces of metal you know it there's no rhyme no reason that's a record before they smush it oh this is right here yeah the vinyl that's a vinyl before they smush it i hate music that's a i don't know what is it is it? Trees of Barcelona. Super. Super Chunk. Super Chunk. The Super Chunk record. Yeah, you got the, this is, I remember my.

That's a very hard one. Yeah, this is like, I don't know if anyone, what these are called, but it's the thing that you squeeze in your hands. Like it's in all the 80s movies where you see the. Exercising the wrists or the hand muscles. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. This somebody made for me. That's beautiful. I love mosaic-y stuff.

All right. Well, have fun. Say hi This somebody made for me. That's beautiful. I love mosaic-y stuff. All right. Well, have fun. Say hi to Michael Shannon for me. I will. I'll see him tonight. Good. Okay, there you go. Isn't she the best?

I never know what to expect, and I really had a hard time all the way through just realizing, like, oh, she's just a person. She's an actress, and she's very nice. Anyway, she's nominated for Outstanding Lead Actress in a Limited or Anthology Series or Movie at this year's Emmy Awards. And also, in case you weren't following this at the time it happened, Jessica sent me an email confirmation that the exchange with Ben Kingsley actually happened. I saw it with my own eyes, people. She just wanted to set the record straight on that, and I'm doing it for you now.

All right, hang out for a minute. It's hockey season, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So, no, you can't get a nice rank on uber eats but iced tea ice cream or just plain old ice yes we deliver those goaltenders no but chicken tenders yes because those are groceries and we deliver those too along with your favorite restaurant food alcohol and other everyday essentials order uber eats now for alcohol

you must be legal drinking age please Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising.

Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative. If you didn't notice, I popped up on last week's uh friday show uh brendan taught me about the montreal screw job and i shared some examples of comedy screw jobs there's one story that i always liked uh and uh it's the you know the story with uh john stewart and alan king wait i don't know this oh it's pretty great but it's it's pretty classic and it is exactly that like you know stewart was just my the way i got the story and i don't know if john told me when you know he would talk to me uh or or i got it second hand but it it seems pretty real so john was starting out and he had

a gig opening for alan king somewhere and uh, you know, and Alan, you know, introduces himself, they talk before the show, and Alan's like, listen, you new guys, I know you say what you want to say, and I just want you to know it's okay with me, you say whatever you want, use whatever language you want, you know, because I know that's the way, you know, you guys do it, and I have respect for that, whatever, and John's like, oh, thanks, I appreciate it, right, so John goes out there, he's like, fucking this, fucking that, right, and he's appreciate it. Right. So John goes out there. He's like fucking this fucking night. Right. And he's just doing his act and he brings Alan King up and right out of the gate,

like these kids with the fucking this fucking that. There are bonus episodes twice a week for full Marin subscribers with a new one posting tomorrow. Sign up by clicking on the link in the episode description or by going to WTF pod.com and clicking on the link in the episode description or by going to wtfpod.com and clicking on WTF Plus. Now I tried using a QuickTrack. Tell me if it made a difference. I'm not used to them. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. boomer lifts monkey and lafonda cat angels everywhere