WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1463 - Amanda Seales

Episode Date: August 21, 2023

Amanda Seales was on the show Insecure, but only when she had an actual crisis of confidence did she feel like she could get control of her life and career. Amanda and Marc find out they have a lot of similar hang-ups and philosophies about creativity, despite their very different backgrounds. They talk about Amanda's comedy being rooted in her time with Def Poetry Jam, her life as Amanda Diva, her music, her studies of hip-hop, her first comedy special and why she centered her new special, In Amanda We Trust, on civic engagement. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Lock the gates! all right let's do this how are you what the fuckers what the fuck buddies what the fuck nicks what's happening i'm mark maron this is my podcast welcome to it it It's called WTF. Been doing it a while, since like 2009. On the show, Amanda Seals is here. She's a comedian, actor, musician. She was on Insecure. That was that HBO show. She was great. She has an HBO comedy special called I Be Knowin'.

She has a new political comedy doc coming out called In Amanda We Trust. And I watched her special. I knew her work on Insecure, but I didn't really know her as a comic. And I watched her special. And there were some things that really moved me. So I thought, well, we can talk. There were things I learned. And not just about her, just in a broader way about women,

about black culture. I felt like I knew her. I felt like I knew her when she came over. So that always is pretty good. We had a good conversation. You'll hear that later. But Richard Lewis, who's doing this sort of a video podcast called Alive and Unwell with Richard Lewis. And, you know, Richard Lewis asked me to be on it. And, of course, I'm going to do Richard Lewis's show. I mean, he was on this show many years ago. You'd have to get the bonus access to hear it at this point. But, you know, I've always liked Richard Lewis. I've always thought

of him as a kindred spirit. And I've always felt that we kind of had almost a mystical connection for some reason. And I talked to him and, you know, he has Parkinson's and he's sort of doing this video podcast to sort of stay busy, stay engaged, to work through this stuff publicly. And it was interesting to talk to him because I had a genuine feeling of love for the guy. And during that talk, I realized that he was really my model in becoming a panel guest on Conan

as opposed to doing stand-up and trying to do panel as much as possible because I always looked at Richard, that's where you sit down as opposed to stand-up, as the guy who did that. And it was kind of interesting to make that connection, and it was interesting to catch up with him. And I told him, you know, maybe we should, you know,

if he wanted to feel what it would be like to get on stage in his battle with this particular disease, given that, you know, he can't move around as much, he's a little slower than he once was. I said, look, let's go sit down in a small theater, you and me. And if you get this into a place where you can wrangle it into something that you can see humor in, you know, we should do that, you know,

just so you can feel that out. And, you know, that offer came from my heart and it was genuine and maybe we'll do it. Maybe we won't. Maybe, you know, even if we just sit down and have lunch, it's weird, you know, we've always talked about, you know, hanging out more, but we never did. I, who the hell knows why, but, but I guess what I'm getting at, you know, it was, it was touching, but it was heavy, you know, and that day was the rest of the day was heavy yesterday or the day

before yesterday. You know, I had a long day of, of, you know, battling my own demons. I'm finding that when I'm processing all these horrible things that are going on around us in the world, you know, politically, culturally, climate-wise, that sometimes it's so overwhelming for me, almost always, that I just instead think about my own life and make that horrible. I think about my own life and make that horrible. I think about my own life and turn on myself and start going over my own personal apocalypse, the arc of my life, whatever got me here. And I had a sort of another sort of cathartic connection

because I'm reading Naomi Klein's new book, which isn't even out yet, called Doppelganger, because I'm going to talk to her. And she's talking about something very specific like that. You know, what do you do if you're informed and aware of the reality of what we're going through, yet you feel powerless and you feel almost speechless because of the appropriation of the language

of true, you know, information and political activism being co-opted almost immediately by right-wing propagandists is like, you know, what do you do? And a lot of times you focus on yourself. You exercise. You eat better. You think that this is a way that's going to get you through it. When you're looking at the reality, the show you're putting on for it is some sort of, depending on how informed you are, either it's a defiant celebration of your denial or it's an aggressive, self-oriented show of your desire to survive in light of it.

But so much of this happens internally or so much of it happens in our own little life, but you know, we don't get out and get in the streets and do the thing. And it feels like some, somehow a lot of that has passed. You can read the books, you can talk the talk. You could say, Oh yeah, I know that. But, uh, but you know, we're really left with just the sort of reality, the existential reality of, of in our personal lives,

entertaining the catastrophic by thinking our, our way out of it or into some mode of living that enables us not to rationalize it, but to compartmentalize it in a way that almost either voluntarily, involuntarily defeats ourselves and defeats the possibility of organizing with other humans. But, you know, these are just realizations. All right, before I space out,

I'm at Largo in LA on Wednesday, September 6th. I'll be doing five shows at Helium in St. Louis, September 14th through 16th. Then I'll be at five shows at Helium in St. Louis, September 14th through 16th. Then I'll be at Wise Guys in Las Vegas on September 22nd and 23rd for four shows. In October, I'm at Helium in Portland, Oregon on October 20th through 22nd for five shows. Those shows are selling out. You can go to WTFpod.com for tickets. Yeah, but I didn't finish telling you about the other day. So after a certain point,

I just beaten myself into the ground with my, with my brain and how I was looking at myself. And then I, you know, someone tweeted at me a picture of, um, uh, you know, Canada, BC specifically, and just how many fires there were. And this is, you're sort of my, my escape plan, you know, in a certain way, I've put in, you know, the sort of machine in motion to try to get kind of a green card to go to Canada when I can, you know, legally and without much difficulty. And there I'm looking at my dream or my escape plan, just, you know, the entire region is on fire. And it just knocked me out. You know, and I didn't know what to do, really.

And it was late. And, you know, and I just went to bed with that sort of, you know, in between despair and suicidal ideation. And just sort of like, God, let me sleep. And I'm still sick a little bit. sort of like, God, let me sleep, and I'm still sick a little bit. And I woke up, and I felt better, which was only a testament to the fact that maybe sleep kind of reboots you, if you're lucky.

But let's talk about Amanda Seals, because I want to get to that conversation. As I said earlier, I didn't really know her as a comic, and I could know, she's obviously performed a lot. And then when I did a little research, she comes from more of the spoken word tradition. But it was very, you know, sort of, you know, talking about in terms of, of race and in terms of women that I, I, I really never heard as a personal story. And I didn't know the black national anthem. And I, I heard her talk about, um, relationships and sex in a way, uh, from her point of view as a woman, as a black woman that I'd never quite, I'd never heard spoken of personally. And it was, you know, it was moving and it was informative and, you know, and I got a sense of who she was. So I was happy to have her on. So her new political comedy doc in Amanda, we, is available to buy directly at inamandawetrust.com. And the special, I believe, I watched on HBO.

And you can do that if you'd like. I'd be knowing. And this is my conversation with Amanda Seals. You can get anything you need with Uber E eats well almost almost anything so no you can't get an ice rink on uber eats but iced tea and ice cream yes we can deliver that uber eats get almost almost anything order now product availability may vary by region see app for details hi it's terry o'reilly host Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category.

And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store and ACAS Creative.

So I don't know you. I've never met you. Why is that? We just in different worlds? I think you excelled to another level before I would have been in a space where you were. Yeah, he came up after me. But I watched, like I didn't, I knew you from Insecure, and I knew who you were. And then I watched your special, because I was like, you know, okay, I could have her on, but like, what is she?

And then, what does this lady do? What is she? Wait, are we recording now? Are we doing this? Okay, what does she do? But no, but i watched a special and it's kind of interesting because i don't i don't know that i i'm not jaded but i don't know that i i things resonate with me but for some reason i i was like you know i could talk to her she seems that honest she's done some thinking about herself yeah i like the the the framing of

uh i like that whole bit about you, deciding just to have sex with somebody and not knowing how that's going to land and you think you have a handle on it and then all of a sudden you don't. Gets you. What'd you say? Sometimes the dick touches the heart. The dick touches the heart, bro. You didn't see it coming, literally. But how does that turn out in the long run generally? In the events where the dick has touched the heart, how long does it stay there?

It depends. It depends. I mean, I've had scenarios where it's a quick jaunt. Yeah. But then there's other times where because of distance, also, you know, the distance plays with you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then they come back around. Yeah, I remember. Oh, yeah, this. And then they come back around. Yeah, yeah, I remember.

Oh, yeah, this again. Yeah. But that's not great. No, none of this is great, Mark. None of this is great. So you're trying to find the shit that's great in the midst of it.

Yeah. So that, you know. How are your relationships in general? I'm sorry this is starting out like this, but I guess I have it on my mind. I've gotten doing me romantic relationships only or

friendships? Yeah, no, I mean like, because like I've been around and I've been married a couple times. I have no children and I'm not good at the relationships and I've been thinking about it. What makes you not good? Honestly? And I've been thinking about this a lot. That's dope. Lately. Good. You know, because I'm old and like you get to a certain age where you're like

well that's just the way I am and then you get to another point where you're like well maybe I can at least try yeah but I feel like I've tried before but maybe not hard enough I don't trust people that well intimacy is kind of a little threatening to me for some reason

if you say for some reason it's because you need to find out what the reason is. Well, I think I know what the reason is. It's like old family shit. It's old childhood shit. But these things will just hold you hostage for your whole fucking life. Yes.

And either you got to work through it and try or you just sit in this. What about you? If I'm going to be divulging. I am a new person since beginning being in my last relationship because i realized in that relationship that i was i realized right before that relationship that i was showing up with toxicity and i had never admitted that to myself i was like i had a codependency about me that i showed that showed up in ways that I didn't know.

A codependent thing. Like where you think you're being helpful, but you're really being controlling. Oh, yeah, that's a good one. You know, so that was the big one. Like I'm thinking like, look, resources. You know, hey, how about you do this? And then it really is like you're trying to control the outcome. Or change the person.

Well, here's the thing about the changing of the person. Yeah. I just feel like, yeah, we should all be changing. Evolving. Yeah. Like, I think at one point I took that as a bad thing. Yeah. But I'm really glad that I've changed.

Like, I'm like really proud of myself for fucking changing. And it's sticking. Yes. See, this is the thing about. That's the problem, by the way. It's sticking. That's good, though. And it's sticking. Yes. See, this is the thing about- That's the problem, by the way. It's sticking. That's good, though. Because it gets, well, yeah, but when it sticks, other people don't stick.

Of course. Yeah, you got to let people go, let old habits go. You have really good energy, by the way. I don't even say shit like that, but you do. I feel really good here. Oh, good. You do, too. That's why I had you on.

Thanks. I watched the special. I'm like what this is what is this so what what is this but the codependency thing that's real like because i abandonment issues i don't know if i those are mine really oh yeah and they go back yeah because you find out that like you don't gotta have you you don't have to have gone through some crazy fucking shit where you had like addiction and all this for to have that it doesn't have to be that extreme it can really just be as basic as like your dad wasn't into it yeah

no totally i i mean i've been talking about that stuff on stage a little bit just about the nature of which trauma does the business. Yeah. I mean, you know, you can't get through life without trauma, and some are worse than others. But in the big picture, which ones are the ones that really fuck you? And sometimes it's not the one you think. Nope.

So where'd you grow up? Orlando, NLA. Orlando. Oh, my God. I got to be careful because I upset the city of Orlando once. The 407, the ozone? Yeah, the whole, I made some comments about the nature of the city based on my very short experience there staying in a hotel near the theme park where I did a show at the Hard Rock there, whatever it is. Yeah. And I judged the city based on that particular three

block radius and I got a lot of shit yeah i drive yeah i went to dr phillips high school it's like a stone's throw dr phillips high school the best yeah what is that dp uh dp why do i feel like i know somebody did wayne brady go there yes he did oh my god i fucking i rarely remember anything that's impressive well i talked to him yeah and i remember he you know talked about that place. See? We all talk about it because it's the fucking best. What was the story with that place?

Well, when he went there, it was just opening. But then when I got there, there was a visual and performing arts magnet. And Joey Fatone went there from NSYNC. Yeah. And Louise Fonzie, Eddie Wong went there. Yeah. But... It's a performance art school?

Yes. Ashley Drain, who is the voice of Ahsoka Tana from Clone Wars, went there. But it's like, DP is an institution. Yeah.

And we were called Gucci High. Yeah. It was like one of those weird places where there's a convergence of so many different types. Like, it was a truly diverse experience. Creative types.

Not just creative types. I mean, it was a magnet in the school. Yeah. But it was a truly diverse experience. Creative types. Not just creative types. I mean, it was a magnet in the school. Yeah. But it was a regular high school. So we were also like a really big sports school. Was it a private school?

Public. Really? Yeah. And it's just like, but you could figure out a way to go there even if you didn't live in the... Yeah.

So like, of course, they're like, okay, well, we want them in sports. So they bust all the hood to the school.

Yeah. And then, you know, they had like a center for international studies. So then bust all the hood. Yeah. Instead of school. Yeah. And then, you know, they had like a center for international studies. So then the rich kids were able to get there. Oh, wow. If you got into a magnet, then you could be from anywhere.

Yeah. Okay. But I lived like right in the middle. Oh, so magnet school. Yeah. That's the difference. It's public, but it's special. Yeah. It has like specialized programs.

Yeah, like the School for the Performing Arts in New York or something. Exactly. Yeah. So now your folks knew, how many siblings you got? I mean, my dad has four kids. Oh, yeah. But I grew up by myself with my mom.

That's weird because this is like Wayne, too. I think he was the only child. So your dad was, they weren't married? She met my dad when she was selling the house that her husband was like holding her hostage with. Oh. She was like, I'm never going to get out of this marriage unless I sell this house. Yeah. And so when she was selling the house, my dad actually came to look at the house and that's how they met.

Okay. So this is from our old marriage. Oh, exciting. And she was infertile. They told her she couldn't have kids for 10 years. So she thought she was good. Yeah, and then six months in, it was like, ta-da! But they were together for a while?

No. It was a one-shot deal? Yeah. Really? I mean, I was destined to be here, I suppose. Sure. I mean, my dad is an incredibly brilliant person. He's just not a good person.

Yeah, that happens. Yeah. He's just not a good person. What's that? Yeah, that happens. Yeah. What is his story? Some of it I'm not even really sure. Do you have a relationship with the guy? Not anymore.

Oh, but you did kind of? I mean, I knew him well enough to decide I don't like you. Yeah. Like, my mom made it her business for me to know him. Yeah. And without any, like, she was never, like, talking bad about him. Like, she without any, like she was never like talking bad about him. Like she was completely like fully just objective. Where's that guy come from?

What's his deal? He's from Roxbury, Boston. I know Roxbury, Boston. Went to school really close to there. Yeah? Yeah, Milton. Milton.

Yeah, Roxbury, Boston. That's a heavy neighborhood. Yeah, and he... What was he doing in Florida? He wasn't in Florida. This was in LA. I was a heavy neighborhood. Yeah. And he... What was he doing in Florida? He wasn't in Florida. I was born in L.A. Oh, this is in L.A. Yeah. So he was in med school in L.A. So he's a doc.

He has an M.D. Uh-huh. But he's... This guy's a real character, huh? He is. Yes. But then here I am. Yeah. Part of that. I mean, that's why I'm a character. But your mom was basically the primary person.

My mom was the primary person. She's from Grenada. I don't know anything about Grenada. No? Do you have relatives there? Do you go there? Yes. It's Caribbean?

Yes, very much so. And is it part of your life? It's been a big part of my life. I had a very traumatic experience happen there recently. Recently? Yes, in December. So I'm very like hands off right now. Of Grenada. Yeah. I need to like, I don't know, somehow that'll work itself out. But right now I'm just like, the entire country is on the no go list. Correct. What happened? I'm not talking about it. Okay. That's fine. But before before this you had an okay relationship

with Grenada I have a very I mean everyone knows I'm from Grenada like it's like that like when Karani James won the 400 meter like in the Olympics and won the first gold medal for Grenada like people were like congratulating me oh really I have dual citizenship really yes like I mean it's a like I usually wear Grenada charm but I'm like on the fritz right now. So I was like. What's it? What is like? Tell me because I'm stupid.

I'm smart with some things, but dumb with others. Like, what is what is the what's the politics of Grenada? So Grenada is the second to the last island of the Caribbean. Yeah. It's above Trinidad, below the Virgin Islands, very close to Venezuela and to South America and then to the west of Barbados, which made it a really great location for Cuba to come and build some things. So they built our airport. And then Maurice Bishop, who was leading a revolution in Grenada, was working with Fidel Castro. And America got shook once about it and invaded.

Grenada. Yes. When was that? 83. I kind of remember that. I was confused if it's 81 or 83. Right, because Cuba was training there. Yes. I remember.

So they literally built our airport, which is now Maurice Bishop International Airport. Bishop International Airport. But Maurice Bishop was an incredibly charismatic and very brilliant man who was betrayed by his right hand, Bernard Cord, when America convinced Bernard Cord, like, hey, if you get this guy out, you know. So it was a coup. I mean, always. Yeah. Right.

Sure. They ended up putting Maurice and his pregnant girlfriend up against a firing squad and took them out. Grenada is a superbly political place. Everybody in Grenada, civics is a part of the culture, which is what I would love to see happen with black folks in America. That's what the new project is about, right? Yes. It is the only way that we will create the change we wish to see.

And we've seen proof of that in the past. So there's no reason to not believe that. But Grenada as a country is full of funny, like it's a hilarious place. Like the people of Grenada are funny. Yeah. Like if you really want to like see some funny folks. Yeah. Don't go there and expect to leave without a nickname.

They'll come up with something for you. And you can choose to use it or not. Yes. So like my mom, like literally my mom gave people nicknames in high school that like they have

followed them. It stuck? Yes. Well, that's interesting about civics because I'd like you, if you could, to spread it out

to white people as well. I don't think you should be exclusive because we all need to learn about civics. Well, no, you can be and say I understand. I was like,

is that right? Well, I mean, but just for me, I mean like,, no, you can be insane. I understand. That's like, is that right? Well, I mean, but just for me, I mean, like, you know, even me coming up when I took the job at Air America, which was a lefty political, I realized that I, in high school, because I didn't give a fuck, didn't get basic civics.

Yeah. And certainly with public schools, the way they've been gutted, like almost nobody gets any sort of basic civics. Correct. Like, I believe that almost nobody really knows how the government works. Facts. And I believe how like you have all these pundits and people with opinions and, you

know, ideologically sort of dubious podcasters. Dubious. Yes. Two points for Gryffindor. You know, that really have no sense of it. And they're just reacting on the basis of what? Personality? On the basis of gossip?

On the basis of clickbait? Yeah. On the basis of gossip? On the basis of quick bait? Yeah, on the basis of fame. Sure. It's just a ploy. Yeah, but it has impact. Yes, it does. You can move masses of people based on utter bullshit. Correct.

And that's what's happening. And that's how fascism happens. I mean, I'm just letting you spell it out. Because this is really how it all works. Yeah, and... An entire genocide happened in Rwanda because of like, I mean, don't get me wrong. There was an impetus that happened long before it. But ultimately, the final catalyst was a radio host. That was a two season who twos.

And I always think about Rwanda the most is that neighbors, you know, at the turn of a, just on a dime, killed their neighbors. Yes. Like these are people two doors down kind of shit. Correct. And, you know, the fact that that is possible. It's happening here. I think about it constantly. It's happening here.

Yeah. It is happening here. I mean, I live in Florida. I mean, my mom lives in Florida. Yeah. And I've seen her neighbors now put, you know, DeSantis flags outside. Well, DeSantis, but I call him DeSantis. Yes.

You know, flags outside and they start, you know, really flossing their American flags, which is just really, you know, one AR-15 away from taking you out. If I see a flag, I know you got a gun in there and I know you got Fox News on. Sure. Right. And that to me is a kit is a kit for the KKK. It's a KKK kit. Yeah. Look, I mean, whatever the hell he did to Florida, I mean, I never thought I'd see a day where Jews left Florida.

Is that happening for real? I don't know. My mom's still there. But, you know, that used to be the place where— Boca! She's in Hollywood, not quite the Boca. My grandmother was in Boca. But I know where Hollywood, Florida is, too. I mean, I think they also they're disconnected from it. You know, they don't quite, you know, understand or process what's really happening.

Well, you know, I think a lot of people they're choosing not to. You know, I think I think to be Jewish in this country and you know not process or realize what's happening is actually really deleterious because ultimately I'm not even sure I know what it means well it's it's not serving your best interests that's for sure because ultimately I mean anybody know yeah how quick the table can turn yeah I mean Kristallnacht was the beginning of your neighbors being like, oh yeah, that business that I've been.

Well, well, let me ask you this and like, you know, out of curiosity, because like, look, I had,

you know, that I don't quite understand, you know, black antisemitism, you know, you know, in a general way, not really.

I mean, I've, you know, there is this sort of idea I have that I'm, I'm sure is faulty that generalizing Jews, you know, in a sense, you you know in a sense you know as a you know just looking at them as one group like there's there's nine of us can i tell you yeah yeah tell me what it is first of all generalizing i think happens just in general sure right it's like because mexicans will be like we we're Mexican. We're not like this Latinx thing is what you created, but we're us, right?

So ultimately, I think that there's a dance that happens. I don't know if dance is the word, but basically it's like sometimes we are a group and sometimes we are saying that we're not a monolith. Black people do the same thing, right? So sometimes it's like, well, no, there's all different types of jewish people right there's ashkenazi there's sephardic there's orthodox there's you know i'm just chill i'm you know there's jay-z like there's that yeah but then sometimes it feels like there's a um a generalization that's being weaponized right right where Right? Where if you say one thing, it's like, well, no, you're talking about all Jews.

It's like, well, no, if I say that I don't think that there should be an occupation of Palestine by the Jewish people who are occupying Palestine. Right? If I say that, I'm not talking about all the Jews. That's right.

I'm talking about the Jews who feel like it's okay to occupy Palestine. Yep. Well, I think these generalizations, like what we were talking about before, when you get people that are unsophisticated and uneducated and want to serve their grievances and their anger, they generalize. Yep. Right?

It's easy. It's lazy. But then that's where the big problems start. You know, that's where it starts. You know where the real big problem starts? Yeah. The critical thinking is not like the hot shit. Yeah. It's difficult.

I wish critical thinking was really some shit that people were really trying to make happen. Like, oh, I'm trying to get up my critical thinking. I wish it was sexy. Well, but I just wish that people could just be left alone to live their fucking lives. I don't know why the fuck people don't want to do that. I don't know. Living is so strenuous. Yeah.

Just living your own life. Yeah. Is so strenuous. Yeah. Just living your own life. Yeah. Is so strenuous that I'm just like, how do you even have the energy? Well, some people put their entire life into it. They have time on their hands. Maybe there's employment problems. Maybe there's mental problems. And that's their job.

Yeah. So, okay. That's their purpose, in quotes. Yeah. So, after you leave Phillips. Mm-hmm. DP. DP. DP. I went to, to nice i went to undergrad at suny

purchase so you went up there yeah i was always a new yorker like that was heart yeah like i'm just like trans new yorker like i was born in another place but i was always that yeah i feel that way too my i'm genetically new jersey but i I grew up in New Mexico, but New York was always a thing. So you go to SUNY Purchase and you continue the entertainment. What do you do? I went to Purchase as an acting major. It's a conservatory. Yeah.

So I went there for a year as an acting major. Then I ended up getting asked to take a year off because someone lied about me. Huh? So they keep their ranking by cutting people. Oh, like Juilliard or something. Exactly. They were number two after Juilliard. So it was like a big deal.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And they keep their ranking by cutting people. And so he thought, well, if I sacrifice Amanda, then I'll be less likely to get cut. So he came up with this whole kakanbo story. No shit. And they keep their ranking by cutting people. And so he thought, well, if I sacrifice Amanda, then I'll be like less likely to get cut. Yeah. So he like came up with this whole kakanbo story. And then the. No shit. The white racist teacher believed it and like made it her mission.

Even though I had straight A's the entire year, she heard this story from this person and decided she was going to make it her business to get me kicked out. She couldn't get me kicked out because I had had straight A's the entire year. But then also, like, it served, it made it easy for them. So they were like, okay, well, we'll have you take a year off. So I had my entire, well, I asked my entire class to write letters in support of me. They all did. And I went to the appeal. And the appeal process, they said, we can't take the word of 25 students over a tenured professor.

So we're not going to kick you out. We'll give you a year off. And so I was just like, all right. So I went back and I took my core classes. And then I was like, well, I don't actually want to go back to this conservatory so I can spend the next three years doing Chekhov. Like, I really just actually don't think that's what I want. And then I found out I could create my own major. So I didn't have a black studies major there, but I created, yeah, at the time they do now.

So I created my own major, black studies with a concentration in the visual and performing arts. And then I graduated on time still. And I did the commencement speech and I was able to get in that ass. Yeah. Did, did you teach that tenure professor a lesson? I mean, I think the lesson she learned, you can't know, you can't teach racist white women a lesson. Like they're just, you know, they're convinced that the superiority is what it is. And anything you do outside of that is what serves you. I don't know where that shit comes from. Where racism comes from? Well, just that where people are unchanging in their views and make these generalizations.

Maybe I'm too sensitive and needy of connection. But when I see these people lose their minds on TikTok, it's like, what is that? I mean, I think people are... I would love to... I hope that when I die again, that I get to talk to whoever, however we really got here. So I can understand. We are like faulty machines. You know what'm saying that's for sure yes so i think just some people's faulties faults like are like literally like miswirings that just never got correct and

they let it define them and then because of their blind spot or or whatever they don't want to acknowledge yeah they that's that's what i talking about. The doubling down on intolerance. They own it though. It becomes like, this is the thing that's going to be my thing. And then they justify it intellectually. So what did that black studies major consist of? What did you, how'd you structure it? So you had to combine two schools.

So they had like a school of science, a school of social sciences, a school of theater arts and film and the math, that was math School of Science, and then Liberal Arts. And so I combined theater, arts, and film with social sciences. And so it was black studies, that was the social science part of it, with a concentration in the visual and performing arts. So I was able to keep all of my credits that I had gotten that first year. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I will forever thank the dean at the time,

Richard Nassissi, because he made it possible for me to graduate on time by using common sense versus just, you know, policy. Yeah, yeah. And he was like, if you don't, if you have to take Spanish, you will not graduate on time because of the way it's offered.

You know, sometimes classes are only offered in the spring or whatever, whatever. And he was like, I would like to try to figure out a way for you not to have to take Spanish so that you can graduate on time. Right.

Did you figure it out? He did. Like, he took my transcripts from high school and he was like, you've never gotten lower than an A in every single quarter. How are you with languages?

You know, I'm not, I'm not like a linguistically like gifted person. I took a stupid test in college to get out of a French requirement. I just was like, I'm incapable of this. I mean, I can structurally make it make sense, but it never becomes like fluid. It's always like, this is the word that means this thing. Bolsa.

You know? Bolsa. Right. It seems like the root of it is almost math in terms of switching tenses. And it's like, I can't. I don't have, my brain doesn't do that. Mine neither. So I stayed there and I started doing spoken word.

And so then I got on Deaf Poetry Jam. So that was in college? Mm-hmm. Yeah. So that was before you went, you went to graduate school? Yes. So you started doing Deaf Poetry Jam when you were at SUNY? Yeah.

Yeah. Because that's interesting. Like when I watched the stand-up, because I can tell that you're sort of rooted in that tradition in a way. Really? Yeah. How?

What gives it away? The rhythm? Well, no, there's like, there's a follow-through that isn't fundamentally insecure. You know what? Chris told me something similar chris rock okay when i opened for him yeah he was like you're unflappable right and i was like i don't know how to take that and he was like well even if the joke doesn't land the way you want it to like you're not shaken like you

don't feel the need to like explain it you You're just like, well, that was that. Let's keep moving. Well, that's, I think that is specifically Swamp Poetry chops. Fascinating. I never thought of it that way, but that's true. You know, like, you know, you got to follow through. I'm going somewhere. Yes. Whether you're on board or not, maybe you'll jump on later.

Yes. We're going to get there. Yeah. Yeah. That's different. You know, with a comic, it's usually joke to joke and the struggle is refreshed every time. Yo, Mark. Epiphanies. That's so true. It's like I know where we're ending up. Yeah.

I mean, my stand up changed once I stopped trying to convince the audience I was funny. Right. Well, yeah. Well, that's interesting. So when was that? I mean, because like, okay, so fundamentally, you know, when you're doing the comedy jam stuff, that was its own world. I don't know what that world looks like now, but there was a time,

and I imagine it was around that time, that it was a world. Deaf Poetry Jam was a time. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. And I knew a couple of white dudes that did it, you know, and, you know, I knew a dude that did it, and he was a comic, and then he got into that

because, you know, I think he felt like he could more thoroughly execute his ideas. Right. But, of course, as a true comic, I'm like, you know, come on, dude. What are you doing over there? Come back. Get back into the,

into the, into the real shit. Yeah. But, but for some reason, when I watched you, I understood it. And I also understood the idea of, of having a point of view that is, is almost specifically meant to uplift. Yes. Right. And I, I think that that's a poetic intention in some ways. That, you know, you're speaking a certain truth in a certain way, but it's meant to sort of validate and uplift, whether it's a community or women or whatever. There is self-expression. Of course. You know, but that's that. But it seems like that's special.

You are bonding with experiences uh experiences i think of primarily black women yeah you know honestly i mean you know this like your first special is the entire life that you've lived up until that point every specialist you know well i don't know i feel like that first one though is everything you've done, then you're like, I'm going to get it all and I'm going to make it make sense. Because I don't know that a lot of us at the first one think there's going to be more after that. Right. But I don't think I had the feeling that you're explaining until my last one where like I could see all what, 35 years of experience, you know, in different places. I could see my influences. I could see, you know, my confidence in executing things that I might not have been able to when I was younger.

But I understand what you're saying. I think for my special, my first special, I was just sort of, I fucked it up. How old were you in your first special? I did a half hour for HBO when I was 32, maybe. Mm-hmm. Let's see. Yeah. And I kind of, it was ridiculous.

I mean, it worked out all right because I did something in the middle that I'd never done before. It was completely improvised. Nice. But I was in a different zone. I was in this weird kind of like, man, just wing it zone. The wing it zone is a wild time it is man but you were but so like we talked to me about so this was a period the the spoken word yeah and then you went to graduate school yeah so you know i started doing spoken word

because i was like someone had told me you should rap so i'm the kind of person where like if you suggest that i should try something sure you know, and it's not going to harm me. I'm like, what do I know? Maybe you're right. Maybe you're right. So my homeboy was like, you should rap. You have a good voice. You should rap.

I'm like, okay. So then I started trying to rap. I couldn't rhyme on beat. But you did music though. Well, I eventually could rhyme on beat. But at the time I couldn't rhyme on beat. And I discovered spoken word, which was not a thing that was happening in Orlando. Right. And so it was like, oh, well, this is like rap. But at the time I couldn't write my beat and I discovered spoken word, which was not a thing that was happening in Orlando.

And so it was like, oh, well, this is like rap, but like, I don't got to, like I'm making the beat. And I have written so much, Mark, like I have everything. I have everything. Like when I die, they'll have so many, I'm going to outdo Tupac. Like the posthumous project. You better plan where your estate's going to be. Or you're sort of like, which library? I actually did.

Yeah? Yes. Is it Columbia or where is it? The National African American History Museum of Arts and Culture. Okay. Of History and Culture. And they've agreed? Well, we'll see.

Or not. They'll just get boxes. They'll be like, where'd this come from? Trump's bathroom. Yeah. So I really was like, okay, this come from? Trump's bathroom. Yeah. So I really was like, okay, I'm going to do this spoken word thing. And then I was good at it. It was just one of those things.

You try it and you're like, oh, I actually like this. I'm good at it. And I was able to submit to Deaf Poetry Jam. And then I got selected. I hope that I experience at least one more time in my life the level of joy that I experienced finding out I made Deaf Poetry Jam. I can remember it like right now. It's like in my cells. Yeah.

Are we capable of that level of joy when like a first turn of, you know, validation happens? I don't know. I don't know. I think it's a specific thing. I think you can have as much joy but it'll be different it'll be different right but I know what you mean it's like my first Letterman

I was like euphoria yeah but then you do it and you're like I think I did alright yeah same same

yeah I would have liked to have just stayed in the joy of getting it yes because doing it did not bring me the same joy

I mean like I just got another book deal and it's like, yay! And then you're like, oh, I gotta write. Oh,

dude, I'm never gonna write another book. What's the worst? How'd your last book do? It did well. Yeah? But I think it would've done better

had I just had better support. I don't think it would've done better. But that's always the case with books. Well, I think, you know what? I also just didn't,

there was just a lot of naivete. What was it called? Small D small doses and what was the angle um my podcast is called small doses and people had been really telling me like we'd love for you to put this on paper and somehow sure so small doses my podcast had been about just kind of my ideologies about life and living and thinking yeah so i put that on paper as like a resource. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So there's lists, there's essays, there's stories. I mean, it's a beautiful book. I have my drawings in there. Oh, yeah.

Like it really is a first, it's a first au revoir of work that I can really like stand on. Sure. It's like, this is Amanda. Yeah, yeah. At this time. Nice. But I did, I overtrusted.

The publishing house? All of it. Yeah, the publicists are terrible house all of it yeah the publicists are terrible all of it you just gotta go and then like the publishing I didn't speak to

the woman in marketing until two weeks before and I was like you know I really find it problematic that this is the first time I'm speaking to you and I said it in this

exact tone and she said well you don't have to be angry and let me tell you something you want to see a black woman get angry

tell them they don't have to be angry correct so. So how did that go? That went, I know you didn't just sit up on this phone and tell me I'm angry for telling you that it is actually inappropriate that this is the first time I'm hearing about you because that means you're not doing your job well. And I said to my editor, you can finish this call because I'm going to get angry and we don't want that. Well, that's the thing about publishing and about publicists and publishing. It's notoriously true. They don't have much angle.

It's all on us now. And you know that. Yeah. All right. So you're going to do another book. Yeah. I'm excited. What's this one?

Body Waving Through the Bullshit. Laughing Through Tough Times. Yeah. I mean, listen, I think I've come to realize that my transparency is a big part of my philanthropy.

Like, people really, like, feel like somehow me being honest about my experiences like is very, like, cathartic.

Not just for me, though. That's what I mean, yeah. But, yeah, that's what I felt in that special, you know, because I was watching it and I'm like,'m like all right and then that you know that the center bits and then also the sort of elation of the audience around things that i know nothing about yeah i but i'm not i'm not being seen but i was moved by them being seen my previous email. Right? Yeah. I mean, that was a really beautiful experience for me. Like getting a standing in the middle of a set is like, all right.

Yeah, but I'm watching it and I'm moved, but I don't know that song. Lift every boy. How am I going to know that song? I should. But that's a joke. I do now. Exactly. Right?

Exactly. I mean, there Exactly. Right. Exactly. So I mean, there's an academic, there's an academia and scholarship in my work that just doesn't go away because that's what inspired me to like, I didn't go to college because I wanted to be smarter. I went to college because I was an artist who wanted depth in my work. So that always being there has stayed there. So what was graduate school like? Graduate school was African American Studies at Columbia. Two years? Two years, yep.

And two of the best years ever. I was also a BJ at the time. So I became a BJ on MTV at the same time. Oh, yeah. Was that when you were Amanda Diva? Oh, my God, Mark. I wrote one thing down before you came over. Actually, too.

I wrote Amanda Diva Poetry Jam. And that was enough for me to believe I could talk to you. You know what? You got to know your strengths. I mean, listen. It's fascinating to me that I lived a whole 10 years as another name. It was 10 years? Yes. And that at this point in my life, there are people that I have very strong, full relationships with that know nothing about that time.

Amanda Diva? Yeah. They don't even know that. There's going to be people listening right now. They're like, what the hell are you talking about? Well, let's talk about Amanda Diva then. So you're in graduate school. Yeah. You're doing the, what was the, did you, what was the full degree you were going after? African American studies with a concentration in hip hop. And did you, was that your own construction or did they have that? It was mine because I was also a host on Sirius satellite radio at the time. Amanda Diva was? Yes, I was. It wasn't Sirius XM yet, but my job out of college

was a host on Sirius. And then nine months later. So that was your show business. That was your first sort of like real job and show business was hosting. No. No. I mean, my first real job in show business was on My Brother and Me on Nickelodeon. Okay.

So I've been SAGS since 94. Okay. When was My Brother and Me? How old were you then? 95. I was 12. Oh, so you were, I didn't realize you were a child actress. Yeah, yeah.

How was that time? It was good because my mom was not a momager. So how did you do that show? You were in Florida? Yeah. And they shot there? Yeah, they built like Nickelodeon Studios at Universal. And it's literally five minutes from my house.

Oh, so they needed people. Yeah. They were like, they can drive right over? Great. No shit. Yeah, and so I booked that. And I was only supposed to be on two episodes, but they liked my work,

so they had me on the rest of the season. But I was supposed to be on the full season, and I ended up not being on two more episodes, not because they didn't want me, but because my mom was like, well, we already have a trip planned to Maui. Shout out to Maui. She was like, we already have a trip planned to Maui. Shout out to Maui. She was like, we already have a trip planned to Maui,

so I'm not going to take away that experience from her to do this show. Huh. So that's interesting. So the seed was planted early on, show business. Yeah, I mean, I was always— Were you a Manda diva when you were 12? No. I was loud, though.

Oh, yeah. But I was always just... I knew when I was 11 that I was going to be somebody. I remember having the conversation in my room, like, you know what, you need to start writing on your calendar what you've done every day because people are going to care. They're going to want to know. I like that. Yeah, you were special to you.

I guess, yeah. Well, that's wild because, like, gonna care they're gonna want to know i like that yeah you were special to you i guess yeah well that's it's wild because like uh but you knew it was going to be in in entertainment or in in performing i was just good at it like it was something i didn't have to try okay so moving up back to serious grad school so what is the what is the concentration in hip-hop so because i was at serious at the time they had like all these old school heads that were on the air all the time. So I'm like, I'm in a studio and like in front of me is MC Lyte. To the left of me is Curtis Blow. To the right of me is Grandmaster Flash.

Behind me is Red Alert. So I had access to all of these architects of our culture. So I supplemented all of my essays, all of my papers had interview. Yeah. So it's archival study. Yeah. So I was able to do these. I was able to like make every paper I would somehow make it about hip hop.

I would somehow attach it to hip hop in some sort of way. So you were just going down the hall? Yes. Yeah. Like it was literally like, hey. It's convenient. Like you have all these. I mean, like hey it's convenient like that you you have all these these i mean i think it's perspective right you would call it convenient but it's also just like

these people are here how could i not no yeah i get it i get it but it was fortunate yes that yeah fortuitous i mean i will say this i had already fortuitous is nice i was i had already started working there so i knew that this existed yeah so when i filed for my degree like it was like oh like this is possible yeah so now you you have a master's yeah in african-american studies and hip-hop which now that we're celebrating the 50 years of hip-hop it's fascinating because i put up some like slideshows on instagram the other day it's just like me with all these hip-hop, it's fascinating because I put up some slideshows on Instagram the other day of just me with all these hip-hop people and people are like, wait a minute, you're a hip-hop

icon. I was like, okay, I'll take it. Are you? I believe so. I've been here this whole time. It's never wavered. I mean, I guess I would say I'm not an icon in the same way that someone like Mos Def is, but as someone who was a part of media, I wrote for XX xl i wrote for the source i wrote for all hip-hop.com

like i was a vj on mtv2 you know my my thesis i need to publish my fucking thesis because my thesis is literally my thesis is about the hip-hop album as a continuation of the african-american narrative which is an imperative part of our like existence in this country. Like we didn't get to write our own story. So it, we, you know, we weren't even allowed to write.

Right. So like the, the hip hop album has become like a, a continuation of that as well as a continuation of like the actual verbal tradition of storytelling and keeping culture and, and legacy alive. So like, that's alive so like that's my whole that's my thesis yeah um so like these are not and also like i was on radio like you know

i've i've then i was an artist i've put four albums out like i've contributed in a pure way i'm a dj you know like it's not like i was there because it was cool right it was because it was your passion it was because it was your passion and you felt it was your responsibility and it gave me an identity that I didn't have before so would you call that the the Amanda Diva period yeah absolutely so when does that shift uh that shifted when I turned 30 for what reason reason? Because the music also started to shift. To what? To a less.

Pop? Yeah, to like a less art-based format. Yeah, sure. And a more commercial-based. Less pure. I don't even know if pure is like the word I would use, but like the things that made me love hip-hop just weren't considered paramount anymore.

Yeah, it broke apart, right? There were two schools. Yeah. And so like lyricism and just like the way beats are being made. Also business became so much more like the focus. Yeah. And that was not interesting to me.

Yeah. And so I, and I also, it started to be like, it started to feel like unserious. And I don't know if I was just getting older and I wanted to be more serious. Like I'm going to my Saturn return. I'm like, I gotta, I gotta. But that's sort of like

your point of view is it's commendable because it is sort of purist because there is sort of like, I'd imagine that time was when you saw the sort of entrepreneurial hip hop artists

that were just spreading it all out. And it was, you know, time to make the very big bucks. Yes. And that meant, like, there was time to make the very big bucks. Yes. And that meant like there was a shift in order to do that. Right. Right? Yeah.

And so, I mean, I was, this is like 2011, 2012. Yeah. And, you know, you just start seeing that happen. You're like, okay, this doesn't feel like natural to me. I'm at a time now in my life where I'm like very clearly being able to identify like, oh, this isn't your truth. Like, go here. But there was a long time where I feel like I was just intrinsically doing that. Right.

And also you were like sort of a personality within it. Yeah. And you were a sort of chronicler of it. Yes. And a presenter of it yes but i would imagine at that time and you know when you were 30 you were like i want to be my own well so i was i started making music yeah so like 2006 i put out my first album life experience and then i put out four more after that but i got very disenchanted in that process also because the the business of it was making me hate the music why because you didn't feel like you were getting the attention you deserved well one it just feels like you're just pouring out and not getting anything back

yeah what I love about stand-up is that for my personal experience of stand-up there was a meritocracy like I know that that I'm talking about just mine. I know that that's not the general sense all the time, but I know that like, I would get opportunities because someone would be like, you're funny. Right. You can do this.

Like, it wasn't like, you're pretty, you can do this. It was like, I saw you go on stage and then people laughed. And so will you come and do my thing? Right.

Right. Whereas people would be like, um, in music, it was like, you can sing, but like, what's your story? What producers are you working with? And I'm like, what is it? Did you like the shit? Yeah. Or did you not like the shit? Yeah.

I guess you would start to realize that the actual creativity of it is a tenth of the job. Bro. That blew my fucking mind. Like, so it's 80-20 and the 20 is the art? Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm like, well, what are we? Yeah.

And I like. I don't have that kind of time. I don't have that time. I don't even have that money. And given that you have control issues, that would mean you'd have to delegate responsibility to people to manage the business part of it. So, I was told I was unmanageable. You know, and you're unmanageable also because you're like, well, you can't fucking lead me down a garden path.

You know, because like, it comes back to trust issues. It does come back to trust issues, but it also comes back to like, combining trust issues with you not being a jackass. You know, like that always the case. I mean, how many non jackasses have you met? Like I was too like the comments.

I was like, you're too smart for your own good. It's like, oh, because I peeped what you're doing. Right. I'm like, hey, can we not do that? And then it's like, ah, why won't you just let me, you know, pretend that I'm actually helping you? Well, that's interesting though, because that whole thing where you, you, you know, we're hard on ourselves, right. For whatever reason, you know, and that we think we're doing great work and then you assume people get it, but they don't really get it, but they're looking to

put you in a box somehow. And then they're going to sort of sell within that box so if you don't think that they really understand you or or why are you putting me in a box right but doesn't mean they can't sell you but you know you're going to feel not authentic about it if you have to you know go along with their their uh business model i honestly think mark like only within the last year did I start to become comfortable with the concept of like, okay, I'm a commodity. Yeah. But I think that's only because I became, I knew me, I know me better. Yeah. So it's like, well, if I don't even fully know me, how the fuck can you?

Yeah. I see myself as a commodity in a very boutique way. But I, same. But yo, same. commodity in a very boutique way but i same but yo same like because you you also get people that want to like it's like about discovery and you know we need to get everybody to know you and then you realize like no no no if as long as these 30 people yeah yeah that know me and like me as long as they're pleased sure and i can make an okay living i'm good fine yeah but business people don't understand that well Well, you know what?

I don't desire wealth. Yeah, I don't either. What is that? What is what? Us not desiring wealth? Yeah. We listened when Christopher Wallace said more money, more problems. I guess.

I mean, I don't think that that is because wealth also requires like responsibility that takes away from like my joy. I am not interested in managing wealth. I don't have the desire. I want enough to help when I can help. I want enough to create when I want to create. And I want enough to travel. And eat wherever you want. Yeah.

Honestly, I don't even need that, but that's what I want. I don't get it because I've earned some money and I've saved some money and I don't even really know what to do. I don't know what people are doing with this money. Well, they buy a lot of things. But at a certain point, you're just like, how many things can I buy? It seems to be part of the game. It's like you hit a certain level where you buy the $1,200, you know, hat. You're not wrong. But I found that for me, the wealth thing was

really like, I feel like in retrospect, and even now that my creative journey has always been about trying to own myself. So the most important thing was like, how do I, you know, be my truest self? And I don't know. Yes. Right. So I don't know that that's an economically driven journey. It is. You don't.

It's not. It's not. But like, not everyone has that journey. Many people are just sort of like, this is who I am. This is making money. Right. So but I, you know, I'm literally like constantly all my jokes. And I felt this about your your comedy as well. It's sort of like, well, this is and I felt this about your comedy as well,

is sort of like, well, this is who I am now. If you get it, you get it. But half of this is for me, right? Yes. Wow, you got it. You got me. I always say that, but that's what it is. It's like, this needs to serve y'all and serve me.

Yeah. And then it feels good. Yeah. Like that's where this project came out of. Because I originally was like, okay. The Civics Project? Yeah. And Amanda We Trust.

I mean, originally it started out as like, oh, I'm going to do another special. It's overdue. Yeah. I need to do another special. I need to prove. Yeah, yeah. That's funny. Yeah.

I need to prove to these people that I'm going to do another special. And then, like, we shopped around and people were like, yeah, you know, we're not really into specials right now. Or like, we like you, but we don't like you as much as we did before. Or, you know, we got $5 to give you. Here's 225 cents. Right. We'll let you use our platform.

Right. Yeah. And so my agent was like, I mean, to be honest, I don't know that this is worth your time unless you do it yourself. worth your time if you unless you do it yourself um and i was like okay but of course the you do it yourself thing is very easier said than done but i was like let me just see so then i was like okay do i have enough to like shoot this properly and i thought i did and i was going to do it with with uh jesse collins who's an executive produced my last special. And he's always, that's my brother. And he's just like down for whatever.

But Jesse's heart and his schedule are two different things. Right. So it's like, yeah, I want to do it. And then you look at your schedule, you're like, when the fuck are we going to do this? Yeah. And then I was like, you don't have, like, again, you're not wealthy. So you could shoot this. Yeah.

And it'll be glossy and shiny. Yeah. But you have to fucking promote it. Right. And then get it up somewhere. Were you going to do the YouTube this. Yeah. And it'll be glossy and shiny. Yeah. But you have to fucking promote it. Right. And then get it up somewhere. Were you going to do the YouTube thing? Yeah. So then I was like, okay, I'm going to do all this.

And then I got real with myself. I'm very good at being real with myself. Yeah. So I was like, okay. Yeah. You don't got it like that. So then I saw this footage I had from a previous show. And I was like, this is good footage i could do

something with this yeah so then i was like okay that's what we're gonna do we're gonna take this footage we're gonna do some interstitials yeah that'll bump it up right and then that's what we'll do yeah but then um then we shot the interstitials yeah and then i looked at the footage and i was like that's not the interstitials are so much stronger right And it was one of those things where like we went to shoot these interstitials. You mean talking to people? Talking to, well, we, there's a little arc. There's an arc there. And, you know, the idea is that.

There's a stage performance involved? Because I only saw the stuff on there. Yes. Wait, wait, wait. I'm telling you the story. Okay. Okay. So there was the stage performance.

And then I was doing these interstitials as like a B story. Right. But then when we actually went to shoot the interstitials, you know, you're lucky if you get what you needed. Right. We got such an abundance of dopeness. Yeah. That I was like, maybe we should just make this the project. Right, right.

Because the other part of the stand up was that I didn't intentionally shoot that for a special. Right. So by the time that we got back around to this, those jokes have gotten better, they've gotten more developed, so you're like, I don't know, do I want to give this away when it's lukewarm? I mean, it got laughs

and it did what it could do at that time, but now it's like, I'm fucking murdering this shit. So I was like, so then we decided to just make the interstitials the project and it ended up becoming this documentary um but all of the reason I say this though is that all of this was because I listened to myself the whole route and I checked myself on are you doing this to try to prove to people that you don't even give a fuck about that you're like still funny

or are you doing this because you want to do this because it feels good to do this right and once i checked myself on that it was like oh okay now i know what i need to do yeah i'm very excited i'm very proud of myself mark it's great mark i'm very proud of myself i'm proud of you i can't even believe i'm saying it out loud my chest is burning i'm so proud of myself. I'm proud of you. I can't even believe I'm saying it out loud. My chest is burning. I'm so proud of myself. I might cry. Well, good. I'm glad you feel that way. I really like it.

Yeah, that's great. It's a good feeling. It's nice to have control when you have control, and then you do something where you feel great about it. It's nice to have the control actually matter and not just be some shit that you wanted. Now the project is going to be when you put it out into the world to maintain that feeling you know you're right and i will say this um this is the first time i ever did like a rollout you know where we like actually

like took our time to let people know what we're doing and it has really been actually very um affirming to see how people are like oh oh, my God, we need this. Like, I'm excited about this. Like, I want to be a part of this. I want to understand this. So, you know, it being out in the world in that way is something that means a lot more to me than other stuff I've done. Also because it is intrinsically independent, not just like monetarily, but like in my mind. Like it's something I didn't even know I was going to do.

And it just developed in that way. And it feels like that purity that we talked about. Yeah. And it's also a reaction to the political, you know, hellscape that we're in. Yes. And, you know, its motives are proactive culturally and politically. and its motives are proactive culturally and politically and you're bringing to it the entire spectrum of your education and your need to inform. I mean, I will tell you, I started getting back.

So I toured for six months last year. Wait, now what do you do when you tour? Where do you go? Did you come up in comedy clubs? Yeah, of course. Yeah, where at? In New York. Yeah, which ones do you tour? Where do you go? Do you do, did you come up in comedy clubs? Yeah, of course. Yeah, where at? In New York. Yeah, which ones do you like?

Back then there was The Stand. Yeah, yeah. The original Stand? Mm-hmm, there was the original Stand and there was New York Comedy Club

and You should have the worst. I know, but they put me up though. Yeah, I know. Al Martin. I wasn't, I wasn't choppy enough for the seller yet,

but that's interesting. You know, that difference. You weren't like a killer. No, they weren't a jokester. Um, it took time.

Yeah. And also like I came in to stand up late. I mean, I came in to stand up at 32. So life after a whole life. Yeah. So that helped in some respects right because i didn't have to like figure my voice out like i had to figure out being on stage yeah but i had to

figure out being comfort again like i had to figure out like oh i don't need to convince y'all i'm funny i'm fucking funny yeah so if you want to be on this ride with me yeah join me and it's not an arrogance thing it's just like uh you stop trying to explain jokes and you tell them. Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, I wish I, I get, it takes so long then, like lately, cause I'm rebuilding, I'm doing a new hour. And I, you know, I had no other place to go, but deeper into myself. And you know, there is, I guess I have a hard time sort of balancing the risk. Like a lot of times I'll get off stage and I'll get to the hotel and be like, why did I tell those people that? Really?

Really? Yeah. But it's what you were talking about, that need for some sort of transparency or to evolve into that. Sometimes it's a little weird. Sometimes I start to realize, you know, when you get to a certain place with yourself and your life, it's like in the culture we live in, you know,

you sort of, you kind of feel like, do I need to keep some stuff for myself? Yo, because I'm an oversharer. Right. Like, but this has always been the thing, you know? And I remember my homeboy saying, like, I'm very worried about you because you say too much and this is not a world that's safe they don't people aren't people aren't

yeah protective of that right and so you're like okay even as i'm like preparing this new book and you know you're just like okay you gotta keep some stuff for you um but what stuff ah because i know that this next hour yeah i'm in a i'm in a far more self-deprecating like self-aware place than i've ever been with my stand-up you're critical of yourself yeah and your mistakes that you've come through that i've come through that i'm still trying to figure the fuck out right you know like i just got out of this three-year relationship like that there's gonna be a lot of like well I know where I that guy's going to take a hit I mean it's going to be

a lot harder to write about him than me you know because there's still a certain protectiveness I have sure and you don't a girlfriend of mine years ago brought it to my attention that like I don't get to respond. No. So you have to take that into mind and, you know, decide, you know, how respectful you want to be.

We also just don't want to look like a fucking prick. You know, like that's not the self-awareness I have. I'm like, if I sit up here and I'm like, fuck this nigga. Like, it's like, okay, relax. You were with him for three years. So let's talk about you. To the tango. Let's talk about how the fuck

you were here for three years. Yeah, man. And then I bring my therapist out and we do a shtick, you know. Is he really? No. Oh. I just feel like,

you know, for me, I didn't really like figure out my stand up until LA, which is rare because this is not the place where you really figure it out. You can find a little place you can figure it out. I was isolated out here.

Where were you? Well, just meaning that I came out here and I didn't have a community. I had to just figure it out. How long have you been out here? Since 2015. And I came here knowing that I had done everything I could with New York.

So I had no regrets. It was like, we got to make this fucking work. Right. And then Sam Jay had... She's something. That's my dog. And she had taken me to meet Jamie Flam at the improv. And he was, like, opening the lab.

And they were looking for stuff. What about Dynasty? You ever go to Dynasty? Of course. Yeah. Dynasty. Shout out to Dynasty typewriter. And he was like, hey, you know, if you want to do a show in the lab.

And, you know, what's so hard about L.A. is that, like, there's just not stage time the same way. And there's a million of us out here. Trying to, like, make it make sense. So you've got to figure out, like, what's your currency that's going to make you valuable other than just being funny? So I was able to use, like, oh, well, I have a show. Can I come on your show and you come on my show?

Sure, of course, yeah. Because everyone's trying to just get time. But you did the Insecure for years. I did Insecure, but I started, yeah, but as you know, like I started shooting Insecure in 2016, but then it doesn't air until October. Right.

Right? So, and then people don't really give a fuck until, you know, a few months after. So it didn't like turn, it wasn't that's like an immediate like. Oh,

that's interesting that like, not even that, that model doesn't even fit anymore. No. It's like you do a show, it's like, it'll be on in a year. You can see it in a year,

but I did it. But I did it. But I mean, even by season three of Insecure, I was still doing like 1.30 a.m. spots at the Laugh Factory,

you know, just trying, like I'm still like driving to the, I'm still driving to like Long Beach Laugh Factory and then coming back

up here. That's a big weird room. It's a very cavernous room. Like then coming back here to do some random shit in the patio in Eagle Rock. Yeah.

You know, and then Don Marrera is waking me up to get on stage at 1.30 a.m. because I'm curled up on a banquette in the Laugh Factory. You know, so you're still like doing the things, you know. And then something just kind of turned around, like turned over. When you tour, where do you go? Like what kind of rooms are you doing? Now I'm doing theaters. Yeah. Which we all, not that we all know, but it's like it's like turned over. When you tour, where do you go? Like what kind of rooms are you doing? Now I'm doing theaters. Which we all, not that we all know,

but it's like, it's a different thing. I'm in that hump between like stand, I'm in that hump between comedy clubs and like I'm blowing out the theaters! You know, like there's some places where I can do that. Yeah, me too. Philly always shows up, New York. And they're your people.

It's not just 1.30 in the morning at the Laugh Factory with what's left. Of who's not trying to go home. Yeah, exactly. Just stay one more, one more. That's the worst kind of intro. We got one more. Just stay one more, one more. Please, please.

Get this guy a drink. And so it's a different, but you get spoiled. Yeah. So what happens is you get spoiled because these are your people. Yeah. And now when you come back home, you get spoiled. Yeah. So what happens is you get spoiled because these are your people. Yeah. And now when you come back home, you're trying to do showcase spots at the improv again. And they love you. So they book you because, you know, they fuck with you.

And so does the factory. But you're like, I don't care about these people that I'm speaking to. And I feel like shit doing that. But then, and also Live Nation like took me through a fucking gauntlet last year of fuckery that really fucked with my head. And I needed to just sit down. What, they push you too hard? They just, they didn't do, they didn't promote. And then they tried to cancel my shit.

And then they tried to only pay me half my money. And it was just a basic act of just neglect. It's interesting what you say about, you know, when you perform for your people and then you come back and do the general audience thing. You know, like because I I come from the mindset where it's like, well, that was my original job. My original job as an unknown comic. Yes. Was to perform for anybody. Yes.

And make them laugh that's correct and i still think that way so like but part of me sort of like dude you're old if you don't want to fucking do that well i'll tell you this but i do it so much of my so we talked you said earlier like so much of my work is like to build up, to empower and bring joy. Yeah. But when you're in a room of like mediocre white men, I'm not really trying to empower and bring y'all joy. Yeah. Like I'm not, I'm not saying that I,

I'm not trying to falsely. Thanks for, thanks for including me. I knew you were going to like that. Hey, if the shoe fits and if it doesn't, then you're wearing flip flops. So you're fine.

Okay, good. But it started to feel like i'm trying to convince like or i'm like trying to write to make these people understand this joke and it's like i don't feel like that's my purpose and so i'm with you like i started feeling a crisis of conscience about that and i said you know what you need to do you need to just sit down because you you toured for six months which was its own thing and it burned you out you also have like a negative experience with it so you're still burnt out so like you need to just kind of like sit the fuck down and refresh and i think i'm also at a point

in my stand-up where and some people are gonna listen to be this and be like she's not a real fucking stand-up like see see the voice inside you there's a point there's a point there's a point in my stand- up now where I just feel like I'm not as excited to just go tell jokes. Yeah, you got a higher purpose. I don't know. I just feel like I need something else to get me out the house.

I don't know. I'm the elder in this, so let me know if I sound pretentious. No, no. I understand what you're saying. Like I said before, whether I'm empowering or bringing joy, I don't know. But there's some stuff

I'm working on now that I did at Dynasty Typewriter for a like-minded bunch of people. Not just mediocre white men, but usually disgruntled men and women who are sensitive and creative and somewhat isolated. Yep.

But I didn't know if I could do it at the club. Yeah, so that's sort of the challenge with me now. And it's active because I just went to Salt Lake City, did four shows at a club. Okay. And I was able to do this stuff to show this part of me because, you know, something I did on my last special sort of opened this up. Yeah, but they're still coming to the club because you're coming to the club. I get it, but it's still a club. And

club is weird. It is. It depends. A club is not a theater no matter what. Because they're serving drinks. You're seeing checks drop. Right? There's a layout. It's some weird shit. But you know there's people there that are just sort of like, let's just go to comedy. Well, it's better than

the casino. I won't go to the casino. Because the because i know myself enough shit i won't do it you don't do that there's no reason once and i'm like i'm good no you don't do that no why do that to yourself i know you just i mean i did it well one i was opening for roy wood jr so there was the best he's the best how'd he do at the casino he did really well but it was we were both like wow you know this was an experience I mean I got a joke out of that

that I did on where am I blanking right now what Kimmel or Fallon or Seth Meyers Seth Meyers Jesus Christmas

sorry Seth sorry I haven't eaten today I'm hungry but I did it on that show and it came out of me and Roy

going to like a Morongo or whatever the Mohegan Sun in Connecticut. We're in the Uber. Not Foxwoods. Mohegan Sun. And the driver is like, man, Donald Trump looks really good for his age, doesn't he? And we're both just like, where is this going to go?

Yeah. How is this a setup for us taking the drive to the gig? You know, so, but I just. But that's a weird thing we do. You know, it's like, fuck. But you do it because you're like, well, who am I not to do it? And then you do it. No, no, but I just mean that, you know, we take information like that.

Like I'll get on stage sometimes and I'll look at the audience and be like, there's no way. Yeah. But you know what? We don't fucking know. That's a voice in our head. Yes. And it's like, there's no way that they're going to. But you know what? We don't fucking know. That's a voice in our head. Yes. And it's like, it's a nightmare. Because you don't know.

Sometimes you do. I've been doing it long enough to know when an audience feels weird. Yes. But sometimes, like, I look at people and I make an assumption. And, you know, it's just not correct. But it's also as basic as, like, am I having a good fucking time? Well, I don't know. You know what I mean?

Like, am I having a good time? I'm not having a good time. Let me go home. Are you good at having a good fucking time? Well, I don't know. You know what I mean? Like, am I having a good time? I'm not having a good time. Let me go home. Are you good at having a good time? Yes. Oh, that's good. It took a long time. Like, there was a certain point in my life where my mom would just be just so ecstatic that I'm enjoying myself. What is it? Because, like, you're too hard on

yourself? Is that it? Because I try to figure out why, you know, for me, I'm just, I always say, like why you know for me i'm just i always say like you know uh joy takes too much work and that's fair you know it's freedom you gotta let go yeah and that's yeah that's some exercise but where do you get that what do you where did it come from because like you were hard on yourself or what i mean i was hard on myself i was hard on other people um i also just was waiting for the shoe to drop and so it took time to have to it took a nervous breakdown and then the

rebuilding was that 2019 uh 2020 really for real yeah when you start thinking about killing yourself i mean that's what the fuck happened 20 was covid i was before. What happened was I just filled up. I just never really realized how much of me was based on everybody else. External. Yeah. That's a codependent breakdown. And I'm in a business where they're not protecting you. I was on the real. Yeah. That's a codependent breakdown. And I'm in a business where they're not protecting you. I was on The Real.

Yeah. And let me say, I left The Real and I have my qualms with The Real and I had my nervous breakdown at The Real. But The Real was just like the straw. I mean, the camel had been like, let me up. What was the problem there? You couldn't say what you wanted to say? They were just mean. Oh.

And that's a morning talk show? Yeah. Yeah. And they were just really mean, and it was like, and I went in there thinking I was gonna be in a beautiful place and found out, like,

oh, y'all are fucking mean. Yeah. And I know that may sound juvenile, but, like, who wants to get up at 4.30 a.m. for some fucking mean shit? Yeah. You know, and then

I had, like, a bit nervous break time while I was there. I mean, people, I always say this, people should have known when I came on screen with three cornrows that something was amiss.

But then again, you were relying on other people to make that determination. And I'm like crying, well, I was crying, I cried for,

you know, a good 24 hours. I'm like literally in the makeup chair crying. She can't even do my fucking makeup. I'm just crying. And no one's saying,

you don't have to do the show today. So how long were you in it? I was in the real film. No, how long were you in the breakdown? So I did the show. Yeah.

Went home. Yeah. Proceeded to continue. Then I, well, my assistant was like, okay, I'm calling your mom. So your mom's going to come tomorrow. Oh, so you were just miserable and depressed.

Despair. Because you were locked in. Yeah. Yeah. I just didn't, I couldn't in my mind figure out how I could be myself and be happy. In a general sense. Just that basic. That was it.

How, because clearly being myself is not working for the world. Yeah, I know that one. So how does this shake out? Well, I got to kill myself. That's the math. Yeah, I do a little of that and i also do a little like why don't i just disappear there you go shaking it up yeah fuck it fuck y'all i can

just get out of show business poof yeah i'm gonna start a scuba shop in australia exactly did you get that one did you have fantasize about yes and i think that's healthier than suicide yeah well it is uh but then uh you know my therapist at at the time, I had a really good therapist. She's retired now. But she was like, this feels very daunting for you. And that is a real feeling. Yeah. But as someone on the outside looking in, I want you to know that the only thing that's happening here is you've lost your confidence.

And that is something that we can rebuild. This is not the end of the road for you. This is the beginning. Yeah. You know, and I'm just like, and then she gave me like very practical things. Like you're going to do boxing. Cognitive things.

Yeah, like you're going to do boxing because you are suppressing so much anger because you don't want to live up to the stigma that you have, which is that you're difficult. So now you just suppress it so that you don't look difficult but that doesn't go it doesn't just go away it goes into your tissue it goes into your sure cells and now like it's fucking circulating and circulating and circulating so she was like we're gonna get you in boxing so you need to kinetically the first punch yeah i was like i'm healed yeah yeah sure yeah then she's like you're

gonna do affirmations and she like, what about the secret? And I was like, okay, that's a little too. You had to draw a line. So, man. Yeah, it's not appreciate. I started listening to Paulo Coelho's The Warrior of Light. A homeboy on Instagram had suggested it to me. Started reading that.

And that was like, but I guess the thing, though, is that I took my wellness more seriously than I had ever. Like, you know, people are like, go to like go to therapy you know meditate and I would like dabble but this time I was like if I don't do this I will die right I need help yeah and so but I got the help from me like I didn't abandon myself

and I didn't abandon myself because people around me were like don't abandon yourself it wasn't like we're gonna save you it was like you're going to save you. It was like, you're going to save you. Get fucking focused. And I did. And I had to rebuild myself. And I'm still doing that. It's interesting, right?

Because what we need to be creative people is essentially pretty fragile. And, you know, we build these sort of personalities to deliver the goods right and then when you come back to it you know whether it's abandonment shit or whatever you grew up with that gave you this sort of fragile sense of self you know once you know all the other shit that you put in place to to protect it breaks down. You have no grown-up ability to fucking live in the world. None of it. Yeah. No coping mechanisms.

Yeah, right. I am becoming a grown-up before your eyes. Yeah, I know. Isn't that weird? Literally, like, I, a month ago, realized I have to grow up. Yeah. And that's why my relationship ultimately ended, because I was like, we have to grow up. Yeah's why my relationship ultimately ended because I was like we have to grow up

and he wasn't ready yeah I just don't I don't always I mean I think I'm emotionally like 15 you probably are well there's things to do about that have you ever heard of the cognitive behavioral workbook what is that

I'm telling you it's a game changer yeah because it just gives you, it just takes the esotericness of emotions and makes it really plain. Well, I think what it comes down to is whatever I'm afraid of or whatever's stopping me and whatever caused it is very old stuff. Yeah. And now you're just like this grown person. You're like this child, emotional child in a grown-up body

who's still, you know, and I'm... Letting it live. Right. And I've noticed that, but like, I don't know, I just assume... But there's practical ways,

though, to change that. So he's not just going to catch up? Like, you have to, like, literally commit yourself. What is this cognitive workbook? It's this dope workbook

that really just kind of called that it's a cognitive behavioral work who made that i forgot the author's name you can get it on amazon but cognitive behavioral therapy is literally the no it's the shit yeah it's the practice of like i'm gonna re acting as if yes i get it and uh on a basic level just gives you language and practicum to be happy. Okay. And I think we have to decide, like, I deserve to be fucking happy. Yeah. But a lot of people don't really believe they deserve to be happy.

Why is that? Because they were convinced somehow in their childhood that they didn't deserve it. And it was probably by some fuck shit that had nothing, I know it was some fuck shit that you had nothing to do with. And it's a cycle that continues. And so you internalize it. And it can be something

as basic as like, you fell off your bike and this person said to you, you see, you'll never be able to ride a fucking bike because you ain't shit. And you're like,

I am, you're right. I am not shit. and but there's also the internalizing of your dad's distance and that's was done with a child's mind sure of course so it's in my body yeah based on some based on a brain yeah didn't know what the fuck was going on but blamed itself and even though i'm older i can logically be like oh well this happened yeah but it's cellularly i know that's it and so you got it there's a there is an there is an intelligence there is an intellectualism that has to be applied and i feel like uh when it i feel like i'm coming into like a new spatial awareness about like all that shit yeah

me too and it's like it's it, it's making me a little unstable. Yeah, I know. But it's good. It's like when you start lifting weights and you're like shaking because it's like making, your muscles are trying to get it. And then you keep doing it. Yeah, all right.

We have to keep doing it, Mark. All right, we will, we will. Okay. We'll be better comics. Okay, do we, okay. Can we, did we do it? We did it. We fucking did it.

Good talking to you. Amanda Seals. I enjoyed talking to her. You can get her special In Amanda We Trust at inamandawetrust.com. Watch her HBO special, I Be Knowing on HBO. Hang out for a minute, folks. It's hockey season, and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. hang out for a minute, folks. But chicken tenders, yes, because those are groceries, and we deliver those too, along with your favorite restaurant food, alcohol, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now.

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in Rock City at torontorock.com. Okay, listen, For full Marin listeners, we've got an episode of Mark on Movies posting tomorrow about changing lanes. And if you want to get in the mood for that, about a year ago, we did a bonus episode about Michael Clayton. Why?

Why? Because people are fucking incomprehensible. That is as good a line of dialogue to kind of define our show as it exists in any movie. I feel like that is like 90% of all the questions we have and answers from guests on this show. Paulick saying that line, but certainly I've talked about that line with guests and with, and with people that moment that, uh, I don't know what it is, but I think about it every day in the sense of how we generalize about people. And then you can just be sitting somewhere anywhere where there's people about and realize like, Oh my God, I know nothing about that person's life. We're all similar in a species way, but I don't know, what could that person's life look like?

Right. For example, Argus Hamilton. Now the day doesn't go by where I'm like, what, where, what does that guy do every day? If Argus Hamilton was a, uh, uh, a white collar litigant, do you think that he would have at some point gone through a manic episode and stripped off all of his clothes and ran through the parking lot? Yeah. Cocaine fueled. It wouldn't have been general mania. Right. It would have been like, I'm not sure he hadn't done that. Not as a litigator, but as a just a comic who was having sex with Mitzi Shore in the mid 70s. I think he was probably a lot of naked running around, perhaps outside. Sign up for the full Marin.

Click on the link in the episode description to subscribe or visit WTFpod.com and click on WTF Plus. Here's me and my new guitar. It's an old guitar, 1974 Telecaster Custom. Straight into an old 53 Deluxe. Thank you. guitar solo Thank you. guitar solo Thank you. guitar solo Thank you. Thank you. Boomer lives. Monkey and La Fonda. Cat angels everywhere. Thank you.