WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1464 - Andrew Leland

Episode Date: August 24, 2023

Andrew Leland started having trouble seeing when he was in high school. He learned about his degenerative condition that would slowly render him blind over the course of his life. Now, two decades into his career as a writer, editor and lecturer, Andrew continues to lose his vision and adapt to a world that has a very binary view of blindness. Andrew and Marc talk about technological advancements that help with loss of sight, the complicated emotional response to blindness, and the different factions within the blind community promoting conflicting agendas. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

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Alright, let's do this. How are you what the fuckers, what the fuck buddies, what the fuckeristas? What's happening? I'm Mark Maron and this is my podcast, WTF, welcome to it. I know many of you have been here a while and I definitely appreciate it. So listen, I talked to a guy named Andrew Leland today. Now Andrew Leland, he was a writer, an editor, a lecturer, and I met him before many years ago. I did a panel. It was a lit quake panel with him back in 2010 for The Believer, where he's been a writer since 2003. And so what happened is I was at Superiority Burger in New York the last time I was there having a nice time.

And he's walking or he's being walked by a guy. And I just hear someone behind me go, hey, there's Mark Maron. And I turn around and there's a guy standing there who I don't know. And there's another guy standing there I don't know, but he's got a blind stick. I don't know what you call those. And he's looking right at me and he goes, Mark Maron, do you remember me? We did a panel together in San Francisco and I kind of remembered him, but he wasn't blind then. And, you know, he reintroduced himself as, you know, Andrew Leland. And I was trying to put things together,

but I still couldn't figure it out. How would I not remember a blind guy and uh turns out he wasn't blind yet he had this degenerative disease that progressively made him blind and now he's blind and he's written a book about it and it's called uh the country of the blind a memoir at the end of sight he gave me a copy of it and I I thought, well, I got to take a look at this. And I invited him on the spot. He said, are you coming to Los Angeles? Maybe you could come on the show. And he was planning a trip out here and he came on the show. And this was the conversation of us catching up and talking about the sort of journey through and to blindness. You know, through and to blindness. You know, gratitude is not something that necessarily comes easy for me because it's not that I'm ungrateful. I just don't pay attention to gratitude as much as I should for my health and for the people in my life and for uh, for, you know, not, uh, dying one way or the other,

uh, by accident. And it, it, you'll be, it's just because I think I'm in such a place of hyper kind of panic and my brain's always on fire. So, and I've talked about this before is I don't, I don't really know exactly what happiness looks like. And I'm not sure, I think gratitude is more active than happiness, quote unquote, but I'm usually looking for a certain amount of relief, but that's a, that's sort of a cheat, isn't it? So, you know, it was, it was touching to talk to this guy because this is a guy that's known he was going blind for a long time and it happened gradually, but you know, he is approaching his life and making the adaptations necessary and making decisions around it and understanding a world and a life that he,

he'd never anticipated. Uh, well he did actually, but I'm not sure he anticipated it as actively and now is sort of adjusting and, and embracing it. And that to me is a profound amount of strength. You know, you don't know how you're going to be challenged in this life, but we all will be, whether it's with your own problems or with the problems of people you love. And you don't know what that's going to do to you. You know, obviously, like during COVID, we were all challenged. And now, you know, with the world as it is, we're all challenged. And what do we do? What do we do? Do we think what we're doing is enough?

I don't fucking know, man. All I know is I'm trying to do some new jokes. And I'd like to think I'm on the pulse of something other than just myself. But I don't know that that's true. Listen, I'm at Largo in Los Angeles on Wednesday, September 6th. I'll be doing five shows at Helium in St. Louis, September 14th through 16th. Then I'll be in Las Vegas at the Wise Guys in the Arts District on September 22nd and 23rd for four shows.

And in October, I'm at Helium in Portland. That's Portland, Oregon on October 20th through 22nd for five shows. And in October, I'm at Helium in Portland. That's Portland, Oregon on October 20th through 22nd for five shows. Some of them are already sold out. There are forthcoming dates in Denver and in Albuquerque. I'm doing a night in Albuquerque. Those tickets aren't on sale yet. I'll be at the chemo in November. So heads up, I'll let you know when those go on sale. up. I'll let you know when those go on sale. So look, I've been reading the new book that is forthcoming by Naomi Klein, who is a brilliant, progressive scholar. And I've read parts of the shock doctrine. I've read parts of No Logo, but I've always been overwhelmingly impressed with her. So she's got this new book and I want to know it because I'm going to talk to her. I want to know it. And I think it's her most personal book.

It's really leveling. Between the last couple of books I've read, which are both nonfiction, Jeff Charlotte, who you'll hear on this show, I believe that book's called Undertow, Scenes from a Slow Civil War, and Naomi's book, Doppelganger, A Trip into the Mirror World. It is personal and it really talks about, you know, both of them talk about what is happening. Jeff Charlotte's book undertone specifically about fascism and propaganda and and the very real threat of it. And Naomi Klein also speaks of that. But but she ties together a lot of things that I've been thinking and couldn't quite connect, like the portal to the book is her obsession with being mistaken for Naomi Wolf online mostly. reality of fascist propaganda, the fascist movement, conspiracy theories, and sort of creates a metaphor for that world. And then through that, we get the history of capitalism and where we're at with that, and all this sort of energy that is misdirected into what is a festering fascist movement and into a very real and obvious and happening climate crisis. It's not without humor and without personality and

without, you know, her emotional and personal investment in the story, but it just sort of really kind of rang some bells for me. What am I talking about on stage? What am I really doing? You know, what am I representing up there by deciding to talk about, you know, trauma and as opposed to really, and you know, look, I address fascism. I address anti-Semitism. I address climate. I have for the last two specials.

I seem to always have it there. dress climate I have for the last two specials. I seem to always have it there. But somehow, you know, she gave me a window into what is the fundamental problem at the core of erasing a country's history on purpose and what that means. Like when you talk about book banning and about being against critical race theory or this idea of bodily purity and anti-vaxxing. And she sort of contextualizes it historically and really connects it all to the effects and the disastrous catastrophe of late stage capitalism. And that is sort of the last part of the book. And I don't know if I'm educated properly or really keep that in mind, because in order to keep that in mind, just how much death and pain and the sweat of the enslaved that you eat and wear on your body and use every day, it's dark and overwhelming, but it is true, man.

So how do you go through life avoiding that, you know, with the sort of ideas like, well, I do the best that I can. And, you know, I'm, I'm aware, you know, what, what good is awareness? So like, you know, what good is awareness? So, you know, I'm carrying a lot of that with me and a lot of my own personal struggles in terms of, of psychologically what I'm, I'm sort of going through now and, and also trying to, you know, create, but in, in reading it and in reading about sort of the repercussions of the settling of Europe and North America and manifest destiny and genocide and, you know, how, you know, Christian culture primarily and capitalism is sought to really sort of bury the reality of that and make it and diminish it. And she really talks about that you can't do that for very long because it will start coming out. It will all start coming out. She talks about the, I think they're called the shadow lands of sort of the dark side of the results of historical plunder.

I'm catching up with reservation dogs and I'm realizing this is the voice of the Shadowland. This is the beautiful, emotionally deep, truly authentic voice of a people that was nearly eradicated. And I'm really kind of looking at that with new eyes and watching these shows. I texted Sterling and I really think that reservation dogs is probably the most important TV show and work of film art in the last few decades. In my memory, that in and underground railroad, also a voice of art from the Shadowlands. You know, you hang your hope on these things. I mean, I am moved by it because I'm sort of

attaching it to all this new knowledge that I have. And it's easy to watch it as a surface thing and as a cute show and an emotional show. But the nature, at the core of Reservation Dogs is the survival of a people that was intentionally attempted. There was an intentional, there was an intent on behalf of colonizers to eradicate them from the world.

And that darkness is at the core of the hope and the emotions and the stories of that small but beautiful television show. And now it's even ringing deeper with me now. And the fact that in recent weeks, you know, all I've had to hang my hope, not, and there's nothing to hang my hope on in the face of climate crisis, but in the face of fascism, it's interesting to me that over the last month, you know, outside of, you know, you know, Trump's indictments or whatever, I don't know how many, you know, barrels that shark can swim with, but you know, Trump's indictments or whatever. I don't know how many, you know, barrels that shark can swim with, but you know, he's always surprising and it doesn't seem like justice

is ever really forthcoming. And in terms of the general sort of shameless fascism and hijacking of symbols and language of the left and just anti-Semitism and shop owners being killed for displaying rainbow flags in America. That's an act of domestic terrorism. But it is a point of view that is being championed by almost an entire political party shamelessly. And that's what happens. That's how it all starts. But it's fascinating to me that in light of all this, that the only two things that have given me any sort of uplift or sense of hope

and desire to sort of stay on it are the Barbie movie and Reservation Dogs. It's wild. There's a joy to the spirit of them, but there's also a profound courage to them and something deeply resonant and educational if you really sort of chase down where these things come from. But thank you, Greta. Thank you, Sterling. It's exciting. it's exciting. Okay, so now let's talk to Andrew Leland about, you know, moving through becoming blind. The Country of the Blind, a memoir at the end of site, is available now wherever you get books. And this is a conversation I had with Andrew Leland. I'm glad I ran into him.

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How long have you been in town? Since Friday. And you saw David Chang? How'd that happen? So I used to work at McSweeney's. Right. And when I was there, Lucky Peach started. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

And McSweeney's published that magazine with David Chang. What was there, like eight issues or something? Maybe some. I think there was a little more than that. Really? Yeah, they left McSweeney's published that magazine with David Chang. What was there, like eight issues or something? Maybe some, I think there was a little more than that. Really? Yeah, they left McSweeney's after a while and went off on their own. I kind of liked it. It was a pretty magazine. You wrote for it.

I was reminded of that. You did a thing about cast iron pans. Cast iron pans. Right. Which I never followed your advice, but I always feel guilty now when I've got my weird, rusty cast iron pan. I should do the Marin thing, but I don't. You know what? It's like one of those things, not unlike many things, that I did not commit to.

It's not a lifelong passion. Oh, it makes me feel better. No, man. It's like I get caught up in shit, and then I'm all in for a few, and then I season the pans, or I do the jeans a certain way, or I buy all the albums of one artist, and then a month or two later, I'm like, yeah, it's behind me. You're making me happy.

Yeah. I'm right there with you. I'm a classic, compulsive, slightly manic person that finds over time that all these little exciting things that I get totally obsessed with do not change my emotional or psychological bottom line. But you expect every time you expect them to. This is the one. This is the thing. I don't know if I put that much weight in it, but I like being that engaged.

And I do think that I will stick with it. Well, I know that stuff about Cast Iron, and if I need to re-season one, I will. But there is something about, I don't know, man. Every time I do anything like that, it always seems like right at the same time, everyone else is doing it. Yeah. It's kind of like seasons of television or podcasts.

You know, you're like, it doesn't need to be like Cheers. It doesn't need to be on for 20. You don't need to be Mr. Cast Iron for 30 years. No. I don't need to be the go-to guy. Let it have a good run and then let it go. So when I ran into you, I was at the Superiority Burger and you came up to me or I think the guy that was Jordan Bass. Yeah. He was walking with you and he's like, Mark Maron.

And you're like, hey. And then like I didn't put it together for a second that you had the stick. Uh huh. And and I was talking to you and you're looking right at me and I'm like, what's going on? Yeah. Yeah. Is this for real? You thought I was a faker. It was like a it was like a jackass. No, I didn't. It's weird. I didn't initially think I was a faker. It was like a jackass kind of. No, it's weird. I didn't initially think you was a faker, but I knew that you were a guy that could see. Because you hosted a panel that I was on, and I tried to put that together when that happened. Yeah.

And what I thought of you then. Oh, wow. Yeah, there was a lot going on in that moment. I thought you were being extremely polite and that you didn't totally believe that I had moderated the panel. And you were just like, okay, some weird dudes are accosting me and interrupting my superiority burger. I'm going to be nice so that they leave soon. And then you, you did a book event there. Is that what it was? It was a, it was like a party. My friend Jordan, um, who also was part of the Dave Chang universe until recently, uh, booked the back room there. And yeah,

we had like a dozen people celebrating the publication. That's nice. And then you're like, oh, do you have a book? And you didn't. And I said, you should do the podcast. You're like, I'm going to be in LA this week. I'm like, let's do it. And then you left.

It was unbelievable. And then you came back in and said, I stole my wife's book. It's the only copy she has or something. Yeah. Yeah. And my editor was out there and she just couldn't believe it. Because we were basically like, we just booked Maren randomly. And all props to Jordan because, like, obviously I wouldn't have seen you, but also, like, just he saw you and just the thought pierced like a spear through time.

Like, he remembered the San Francisco panel in 2010. He thought about you and the podcast and me and the book, and it just, like, and I'm amazed that you responded so generously. So I can't believe I'm sitting here right now. But I was trying to remember if you moderated a book event I did at that place. Because I've done two events at the Jewish Community Center in San Francisco. And my feeling about Jews in San Francisco is they're hiding. And that's always been my feeling is that you go to San Francisco. Because they were seriously – and then I figured – I learned it. I guess we're going to ramble on about Jews for a minute.

Sure. Because I think Levi Strauss was a Jew. And I think most of the Jewish aristocracy in the Bay Area were German Jews, which are the worst. See, I come from peasant Jews. You know, Poland, Ukraine, you know, and maybe some German, but not much, mostly, and Russia. That's my stock as well. Yeah. But the German Jews, because my mother's boyfriend is a German Jew, they were the ones that, we can work with Hitler. But they have a different sense of, I think, passing. Because I don't get the feeling that the Jewish community in San Francisco is that Jew-y. Interesting.

But I don't know if you hear that. But I thought, I didn't know if you had moderated me one-on-one. No. But then it was a panel. Interesting. But, you know, I don't know if you hear that. But I thought, I didn't know if you had moderated me one-on-one. No. But then it was a panel. Yeah. And that must have been the weekend I was there to do,

I probably did Robin Williams that weekend, that interview. Wow. Because it was a panel with, who was it? It was Merman. Yep.

Larry Doyle. Yeah. And Daniel Handler. Yeah. And that's where I met Daniel Handler and he eventually ended up doing a WTF. Oh, nice. And Larry Doyle. Yeah. And Daniel Handler. Yeah. And that's where I met Daniel Handler. And he eventually ended up doing a WTF. Oh, nice. And Larry Doyle, I worked with at like, I can't even remember.

Was it Comedy Central? Cranky little fucker, that guy. Yeah. I made an ass of myself on that panel. I remember just being, that was like the first thing like that I'd ever done. And I was like, oh, you live in Baltimore? Like, you must be pretty psyched about The Wire. Because I just like watched The Wire.

Yeah, sure. And he was like, did you watch the show? Like, what are you talking about? Because I just had this like naive like, television must be pretty psyched about The Wire. Because I just watched The Wire, and he was like, did you watch the show? What are you talking about? Because I just had this naive, like, television, city, cool. It's about how fucking horrible it is here. Yeah, but how can you not be psyched about The Wire? See, he was just being a dick. There's nothing not to be psyched about The Wire.

But he chose, in that moment, to make you feel like an idiot. Yes, and I felt that way. Oh, good. Well, I felt like, I'm trying to recall, you were a little snarky, weren't you? I don't think so. I think I was holding on by the seat of my pants. Sometimes that comes off as snarky, when you're

completely terrified and a little bit defensive. I guess so. The thing I remember about meeting you was, you said you're Neil Simon's grandson. And there was no reason for you to know that. So I think my boss, Dave Eggers, must have just told you, I think somehow, to be like, oh yeah, don't worry about the guy

moderating the panel. He's Neil Simon's grandson. You know, he's not one of the German Jews. He's like, you know, good Ukrainian, Latvian Jew. And then you also asked me where I went to college, which I was surprised by, just because I feel like it's one of those questions that, I don't know,

I just like wasn't expecting you to care or, Yeah, but I was. I was trying by just because I feel like it's one of those questions that, that I don't know. I just like, wasn't expecting you to care or right. Yeah. But I was, I was trying to size you up. Yeah. You were sizing me up. You know,

you got, you got a big props for the Neil Simon connection. Sure. What was the college? Oberlin. Oh yeah. That's all right. My,

my late girlfriend went there for a year. The, um, but Neil Simon. So, so that means like Danny Simon was your great uncle. Yeah, yeah. Now I...

How do you know about Danny Simon? Who doesn't know about Danny Simon? Lots of people. There's a weird clip going around that I just saw the other day. Who was it of? Oh, I was watching a doc of... Oh, it was Don Rickles. It was so weird, man, because it's all this weird footage of Don Rickles, and he was at some event.

And there was a drunky lady who kept coming up to him. He was like being interviewed on a TV show. And they were just asking him questions. He was there with some other celebrity. And there was some drunk woman that kept stepping in going, Don, Don, Danny Simon told me to say hi. And he didn't register that. He just registered that she was drunk. And I'm like, I know who Danny Simon told me to say hi. And he didn't register that. He just registered that she was drunk. And I'm like, I know who Danny Simon is.

I took Danny Simon's comedy writing seminar. You did not. I did. Wow. And I could not understand it. I completely did not get it. I just wanted him to like me. I remember, like, all I remember is he had bought an Irish soda bread in Boston for some reason.

And it wasn't what he expected, and he gave it to me. But it was like one of these seminars, it's like two days, eight hours a day, where he's got a system for writing sitcoms. And it's complicated, and there's like diagrams, and he was kind of a cranky old Jew that was running a racket. Wow. I mean, I went, I really, there was one time that he and I spent the day together. We went to some museum and it was kind of like my like eight-year-old version of the Danny Simon comedy seminar where he was just like, let me tell you about the play I wrote. And yeah. But whereas my grandfather, by contrast, like there was never any kind of instruction like that. It

was always just like, I can't even imagine the chip on Danny's shoulder for the entire life, because that's, that's his, you know, fine, the show of shows. But I was a kid and like I knew of it, but it doesn't really carry much. It's not like a huge amount of gravitas. Right. Not as much as being Neil Simon's brother. Yeah. Yeah.

And you could kind of feel the weight of that. Yeah. It's tough. It's tough. I mean, yeah. Did you have a relationship with your grandfather? Yeah, for sure. Yeah.

It's tough. I mean, yeah. Did you have a relationship with your grandfather? Yeah, for sure. Yeah. So you were like there when Matthew Broderick was doing, what is it, Brighton Beach Memoir? Uh-huh. And the other one was?

The other one was? Biloxi Blues. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. He and I went to London, just the two of us. You and Neil? Yeah. I called him Papa.

Yeah. Sure, sure. Whose father is he? He's my mom's dad. Okay. Yeah, I was probably like 12 or something like that. It was an amazing week. We went to see a bunch of plays, including, like, you know, I think he didn't do a lot

of thinking about where, I mean, whatever. We went to, like, a British sex farce that was, like, extremely explicit and very uncomfortable to watch together. Like, people just, like, bent over couches and doing it with each other a lot. But then we also saw, like, a David Mamet play and a Tom Stoppard play. And it was an incredible trip.

So was that, do you have brothers and sisters? I have a half sister, younger sister. Oh, okay. And was that what kind of got you into writing? I mean, my mom is a screenwriter also. What'd she write? Her hits are Moonlight and Valentino, which was Jon Bon Jovi's screen debut. Also, Whoopi Goldberg's

in that, Elizabeth Perkins, Gwyneth Paltrow, Kathleen Turner. Right. About the time when my stepdad died when I was in second grade or something like that. What about your real dad? Real dad? What about him? Where's he? He's in Northern California. I see him tonight. Oh, so you get along with that guy?

He's a good guy. So what, tonight. Oh, so you get along with that guy. He's a good guy. So what, did he split immediately after you were born? They got divorced when I was two. Oh, and then the new guy passed away? Yeah, got hit by a car. Oh, my God. Jogging in the icy Nyack, New York streets. That's terrible.

I agree. But you barely knew the guy. My stepdad? Yeah. He was my stepdad for a couple years. A couple years? But you were two? No, no, no. He was my stepdad for a couple years. A couple years? But you were two? No, no, no.

I was two when my parents got divorced. When Jeff died, I was in like second grade, something like that. Oh, that's terrible. Yeah. Sorry, buddy. Hey, I've had some years in between. A lot of things have happened. A lot of things have happened.

But so what is the sort of trajectory? Because I remember you wrote for, what, McSweeney's, The Believer and stuff? Okay, so yeah, I was at Oberlin College. Did you do, like, were you, like, an editor of the satire magazine or anything? Indeed I was. It was called Oberlin on Oberlin. I inherited it from some other guy.

It was a website, and I loved doing that. And then... You came up with websites already. How old are you? I'm 42. Oh, so you're young. Am I? Good for you, yeah. Okay, cheers. I mean, I'm 59. That doesn are you? I'm 42. Oh, so you're young. Am I? Good for you. Okay, cheers. I mean, I'm 59.

That doesn't seem that distant to me. No, I know, but it's weird when, like, at some point, you think everyone's the same age as you, and then all of a sudden you hit 59 and you're like, what the fuck? How old were these people when I knew them? You know what I mean? Because I have no sense of time, because I don't have children.

You don't have the sense of grown-up time unless you have kids and you can watch them turn into whatever they turn into. I have a 10-year-old and also I've taught a little bit my own version

of the Danny Simon comedy workshop and so I feel like, yeah, hanging out with younger people will do that to you. So you did the satire music or satire mag

and then what? You graduate? No. So then I do an internship at McSweeney's right after Eggers moves it to San Francisco and behind the scenes they're starting the believer magazine so you were living in san francisco that's when for the summer like doing an internship yeah and then i went back to college and they were kind of like look we're starting this magazine we need a

managing editor yeah we know you have a year left in college yeah like would you like the job yeah so i dropped out of college then i moved to san franc like, would you like the job? Yeah. So I dropped out of college. Then I moved to San Francisco. Dave was like, you should read a manual of like the layouts, QuarkXPress layout software on the plane so that when you get here you know how to lay out

the magazine. And I did that job for like eight years. Editing the... Managing editor of the Believer, yeah. That was kind of a great thing, the Believer.

Was it quarterly or was it by month? It was monthly. It started monthly. Now it's fewer. But yeah, it was... I think I wrote a couple of things for that. I did a mailbag. I think you were gone by then, though. No, I wasn't. That's why I was moderating the panel, because it was about a book that we published that was like, because Amy Sedaris had an advice column, and then there were a lot of guest columnists, and I think you were a guest columnist, and I think

everybody on that panel had done it, and it was a book that we published that was collected. Oh, that's why I was there. I had to look that up too. I didn't remember. It had nothing to do with me. It was a booking. It was a book. But it was like you chose us.

Right. Yeah, you reached out to, because my lip site used to write for them a lot. Yeah, yeah. I forgot that you guys were buddies. Oh, yeah, yeah.

He's my best friend. Wow. That guy. I got two best friends. Who was the other one? Jerry Stahl. Okay. Yeah, my best friend, that guy. I got two best friends. Who's the other one? Jerry Stahl. Okay. Yeah, I got the whole spectrum covered.

Somehow, emotionally. But I just saw Loops like that when I was in town. I don't remember who I was sitting with that night. I think I was there myself that night. I think you were, yeah. But, yeah, I spent a lot of time with Sam when I was just back. So that's what you did. So you watched that whole Eggers empire build and happen.

Pretty much. I mean, it was already an empire when I got there, but it definitely grew and it was incredible time. And it was like my grad school and the end of my college. And then what happened after that? Did you write other places? I didn't do a lot of writing during that time. I had like a weird blog that I would just like jazz around on and nobody read it. And then I met my wife, who was a grad student at Berkeley. And then the way that academia works is she got a job in Missouri. And about a year before that, I could just see the writing on the wall that she was not going to get a job at Berkeley and we were going to stay there. And so I kind of preemptively quit because it was golden handcuffs

kind of situation. I wasn't really growing anymore. I did some weird editorial projects around the Bay Area. And then we moved to Columbia, Missouri, where we lived for five years, had a kid. I was still working for the Believer remotely. So wait, what do you mean like editorial projects? How does that work as a freelance editor? What do you do? Like the Oakland Museum of California got a giant grant to build a freaky website. And I was the editor of the freaky website.

So that's like a one-shot payday? No, it was like a, you know, I was on staff for six months or something. Because it was like ongoing. It was kind of like being a curator at the museum, but curating words on their website. And did you have an art background? Like, did you write about art? I was not a writer. I mean, as an editor of The Believer, that's an arts background, right?

Like, we're interviewing whatever. You didn't consider yourself a writer? No, I was not a writer. I mean, I, as an editor, the believer, that's an arts background, right? Like we're interviewing. So you weren't, you didn't consider yourself a writer? No, I didn't. I had a little bit of anxiety about that. Even. I was kind of like, I'm, I'm an editor. I'm in this family of writers. I have this freaky blog that my smart writerly friends say is good. Right. You know what? I wrote like book reviews for the San Francisco Chronicle here and there. Right. But nothing that it was like real. So that's interesting that I don't know that I ever really thought about that, that being an editor is a job unto itself, that it doesn't necessarily imply writing.

It implies organization and curation. Yeah. I mean, it's, yeah, you definitely have to be as intimate with a piece of writing as a writer is, but you're on the other side. You know, think about like, whatever, directing versus acting would be a metaphor. Sure. Yeah. I mean, I've had editors. You've got to kind of, you know,

make things work. Right. Yeah. And you make some enemies of writers. Right. So what did you do? Like, I saw that you did something for the Whitney. I'm a big fan of the Whitney Museum. That was back in my day of like, you know, doing tiny weird art projects. A friend of mine who's in LA now, John Herschend, had this magazine called The Thing that was kind of like McSweeney's. They were just like, one issue was like a couple of cups that the artist Chris Johanson designed. Sure.

And what even was that? That's in my bio. I feel like I took that out of my bio. He and I collaborated on some weird piece of writing. He's great, but if you put a gun to my head, I don't know if I would tell you what that piece of writing was. I was just really proud because talk about not being a writer. I was like, I'm in the catalog for the Whitney Biennial.

But it was probably like 11 words that were all passed through John Hirschen. So take that out of my bio, please. I don't know where we found it. Somebody Googled me. Yeah, somebody did some work. I don't have much. Okay. There's not much.

I mean, I'll give you anything you want. So when do you, and I rarely bring it up like that, but I didn't think you were going to mention it. And I just so happened to have just been at the Whitney. I went to New York, and I'm a proud member of the Whitney Museum. I don't know why. I feel like if I'm going to give to the arts, I'll just do the membership thing. So that means they update me on things. And when I go, I can go right to the front of the line and see the special exhibition.

It's an awesome place. Great place. Yeah. The new Whitney is spectacular. Yeah. I mean, it's like one of the best places to look at art that I've ever been to. That and the Tate in London, the new Tate. Yeah.

In that big industrial space. Incredible. Right? You know what I'm talking about? Oh, yeah. I've been there. It's the best. Yeah.

Yeah. That combine building or whatever the fuck it is. Yeah. That giant hall. Yeah. Yeah. It's the best. Yeah. That combine building or whatever the fuck it is, that giant hall. Yeah. It's mind-blowing. Yeah. So at what point in your life did you get diagnosed with this degenerative thing?

I took a year off of college after my freshman year. And I was back in L.A. I was in L.A. My mom was living in Santa Barbara at that time. And I was, like, interning at KCRW, taking night classes at UCLA, and then I was finally like, okay, this is something that's going on here. With your eyes? Yeah, so we went to the Jules Stein Eye Institute at UCLA.

What was going on? So I had noticed that I had night blindness a lot. Which means? Which means, you know how you go to the movies and you find your seat? Yeah. Yeah, it's pretty easy to do that. I would see the exit sign. I could see the movie fine.

Yeah. But then that, like, finding your way through the legs and the seat of people's seats, empty or not, was impossible. Huh. And so I would, yeah. And my friends would go out into the woods at night and just easily pick their way around trees. And I was walking into trees. But it was really ambiguous.

And I remember my mom even said to me like, it's dark at night, right? Like it's hard to see. And I had this feeling like I wasn't looking hard enough. Because it's just a weird thing. Like nobody talks about night blindness. Isn't that weird though? It's interesting the way that people

initially respond to issues. Like your mom, you know, just is like, no, I mean, you know, just is like, no, I mean, you know, like, but that's what we all do. Totally. I do it to my kid too,

where he's just like really sad. And I'm just like, I don't want him to be sad. So I'm going to like bully him out of being sad. I'm like, what is wrong with you? Don't do that to a child. But I'm just like,

no, you're fine. You're fine. Let's move on. Yeah. The, the sort of, uh,

denial, but like, I learned very weird things about, well, like I had an editor once, uh learned very weird things about, well, like I had an editor once, Jerry Howard. Oh,

wow. Yeah. Yeah. For the Jerusalem syndrome. Right. And, and like, and I can't remember what we were talking about, but it was this very quick exchange where,

you know, where I was talking, I was freaking out about something and, and I just said, it'll be okay. And he goes, or not. And I'm like, wow, that's really true. And then when my girlfriend got sick,

I talked to my mother, and people were like, no, she'll be fine. It's like, no one knows anything. They don't know anything. But you were freaked out enough to go to the doctor. Yeah, I wouldn't even say freaked out enough. I think it was more just like, there needs to be an answer here that's better than like the extremely vague. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Although my dad being a techie bought, had bought

me a modem. This is like, you know, I mean, this is back before I was diagnosed, but in those years when your stepdad, no, my actual dad, uh, he was in California, we were in Santa Fe, New Mexico. And I had this modem I would like post to snowboard, snowboarding message boards. Yeah, well, but then I also like diagnosed myself and found out because there's not a lot of reasons why you would have night blindness. And so I found some like, so you did the early thing of not doing what you're not supposed to do. But it was back then you were supposed to do it because you know, yeah, it was special. Yeah. And there wasn't a whole industry based on people self diagnosing. Exactly. So the Internet was smaller. Back then it was special. Yes. And there wasn't a whole industry based on people self-diagnosing.

Exactly. So the information was more reliable in some way. Yeah. Although it was alarming, too, because it was like, you go blind with this thing. So there was one thing that caused night blindness? I mean, maybe there's others. But, you know, if you Google night blindness teenager or whatever, like night blindness, yeah, there's not a lot of reasons for it. And what's it called?

Retinitis pigmentosa, or RP. Yeah. So you self-diagnosed, and then you went to the doc and got the real diagnosis. Yeah. And he was like, it'll be gradual through your 20s and 30s. And then when you hit middle age, it's going to go off a cliff. And there's nothing you can do about it. And there's no treatment, but science is making leaps and bounds.

So by the time you're in deep trouble, there'll be something. Huh. And I've heard a version of that, you know, like every five years since I was diagnosed. And at a certain point, I'm like, you know, there's a giant breakthrough around the corner. It's been around that corner for long enough. I don't give a shit. Yeah. But I know like it's an odd thing about the senses, I guess, because I know, like, with ears, they've actually done a lot of things.

Yeah, there's cochlear implants. Yeah. And there's good hearing aids. Yeah, yeah. But with eyes, I mean, I don't even know how that starts. There are wild devices that are just being invented that basically it's like a cochlear implant for your eyes. They are?

Yeah, but with giant asterisk. I mean, it's not vision. It's like the same way the mean, it's not vision. It's like the same way the cochlear implant is not hearing. It's a very different... You can't reproduce the kind of full spectrum that the natural senses experience. So, like, what, they

put two cameras in your head? Yeah, they implant a chip in your retina, and that communicates with a camera, and then it artificially stimulates the retina. So, what do you see? You don't know. I don't, I don't know. It sounds like right now it's like, it's not like predator. Remember in predator when you could like see what the predator saw.

Yeah. Right. Yeah. I kind of feel like it's like that a little bit. Like it's like you can see high contrast stuff. So people who are totally blind from RP can now see like if, if like your window was over there and like that was the exit, it might help me orient towards the exit.

Whereas without that, I would really just have to feel around with my cane for example. Oh, so it doesn't shift that much, but I'm not like seeing child's faces or reading print or anything like that. So is there a part of you that's like going to wait this out? And then if they come with some up with something that's amazing, it would just be like,

just do one eye. I want to try it. Uh, yeah, I'm not an early adopter of anything and I'm not going to be an early adopter of that. I wouldn't even get Lasix one eye. I want to try it. Yeah, I'm not an early adopter of anything, and I'm not going to be an early adopter of that. I wouldn't even get Lasix. Yeah.

And also, like, the halfway thing doesn't feel good to me. Like, there's a lot of deaf people who are virulently against cochlear implants. Sure. Because a lot of times they don't work well, and they kind of create more frustration than, I mean, they're transformative for a lot of people. So the arc of this thing, so now you know, and you're in your twenties, right?

Yeah. So like for me, I would be, uh, consumed with panic like every day. You don't, you're not that kind of guy, I guess. I guess not. Yeah. People, people are confused about this part and they don't believe me all the time. Like, well, come on, you're consumed with panic every day. Part of it I think is like being in your twenties and that's just that i was like consumed with putting

that magazine out you know and didn't have a lot of time and didn't want to spend a lot of time thinking about it um and it felt distant you know like the the diagnosis of like middle age at that point in my life did not i didn't have a good sense of like how many miles we had to go right sure it's like that is a thing that like fatherhood or death someday, but like, why am I going to be thinking about fatherhood or death on Tuesday, March 3rd, 2001.

Right. And I can pretty much see. Yeah. I could see everything. I was still driving, you know, and then I think at a certain point I was only driving during the day around then.

Cause it was like probably not the safest thing to do. So you're starting to adapt. Yeah. Yeah. You know, and like in my office, I would wear headphones because it was a big open plan

and it was chaotic. And there was, I would notice people say like, oh no, you gotta, you gotta like tap them on the shoulder because like the intern would come up and just like wave at me and I would just be like staring at my screen

and not see him. So like the peripheral, basically the way it works is there's the night blindness, but then the other thing that starts happening is gradual tunnel vision. And do you see it like that or you just sort of just have a disconnect over here?

Like, do you see like, is it a black ring around your vision? No, because the brain just adapts. So if you imagine like what you can't see, like what is, there's no black hole like behind your head where you can't see, right? It's just like, that's not information that you have.

And so it kind of becomes like that. Like I can see, when I'm looking at your face, I can see basically your eyes and the little bit of your hand that's up there. And that's it. But. And so it kind of becomes like that. Like I can see, when I'm looking at your face, I can see basically your eyes and the little bit of your hand that's up there. Yeah. And that's it.

But I'm not like aware of the edge. Right, right, right. Yeah. It's not like a camera where it's like an iris. Right. Yeah. And things slowly go,

they just go away. I mean, if we could see the time lapse of my vision, it would. But the brain just doesn't. Brain's kind of amazing, right? Yeah, very amazing.

So how do you start to, like, what is the arc of it? When do you start to be compromised to a point where you need help? It's a fat, blurry line because, you know, okay, so I don't drive at night, but that doesn't, that's not a compromise. Sure, you're just like an old person. Right. Then I don't drive during the day. I doesn't, that does not. Sure. You're just like an old person. Right. Then I don't drive during the day. I mean, that's, that's the first major milestone. Right.

And especially because that happened right when my wife and I moved to Missouri, where I left behind the Muni of San Francisco and the BART system and all that. And I'm suddenly like in this small college town where it snows and I'm just like sitting in this house, you know, kind of being like, oh, oh, is she, is she leaving the house? I'm going to get a ride downtown so I can go get a cup of coffee. Oh, wow. And now, are you panicking then? That's when I started to, again, I don't know if there's panic there.

I mean, the way I experience panic, Mark, is like there are moments when I get freaked out. Yeah. But there's not, I feel like you are imagining like a low level terror through my days. And it's much more like just something will come up and confront me and I'll feel very bad and then I'll move on. Well, that's, I think that's healthy. But also like this is not, I, you know, I, but I panic about nothing, you know, and, and the truth, that's just my nature. Profound anxiety. And, but also it's not cancer.

Right. And I imagine that not unlike your brain adapting innately to the compromise in your vision, that some part of you is putting this into perspective. It's not cancer is an important observation, I think. It doesn't hurt, right? I'm just sitting there. And also I've got this cool wife. We've got a dog. it's not cancer is an important observation i think it doesn't hurt right like i'm not i'm just sitting there and also like i've got this cool wife we've got a dog i've got work that's interesting like my life was good so yeah there's this like giant weird terrifying cloud that is a permanent fixture of the horizon but like again like i'm sitting here like what is there to do

about it right now but are you starting to think in terms of being blind? Yeah. Yeah. The real turning point. So stopping driving was, I would say, milestone one. Yeah. And then the even more important milestone was I had started to have more mishaps. Like I hip checked a toddler and just send him hard to the ground. He wasn't injured, but it felt really bad.

And the parent was really pissed. Yeah. Or kicking people's dogs out in the world. And he wasn't injured, but it felt really bad. And the parent was like really pissed, you know, or like kicking people's dogs out. And you don't know it. Yeah. Yeah. And their assumption is like, what's wrong with this guy?

They're just like, is he on drugs? Like, what is his problem? And it felt bad. Yeah. And so I was like, okay,

I need a white cane. And as soon as you kick a toddler with a white cane, they're like, it's, you know, they thank you. Like, Oh,

bless you. Yeah. I have a wonderful day, sir. Stop crying. I'm so sorry that my toddler. They thank you. Like, oh, bless you. Yeah, I have a wonderful day, sir. Stop crying. I'm so sorry that my toddler was in your way. It's their fault. Yeah.

But as soon as that cane comes out, I don't care how much vision you have. Like, you are marked and the whole world treats you differently. And you did that in Missouri? Yep. Although I didn't really use it full time. Like, I owned it.

That's why I bought it in Missouri, but I would keep it folded up in my bag and really only take it out if I was in like a dark bar, if I sensed toddlers in the region. But then when we moved to Massachusetts, which was about like seven or eight years ago now, seven years ago, then I was like, okay, I don't know anybody. I'm going to be a cane user because that was the problem was like, like bringing it out in Missouri, there were people who didn't know I had an eye condition. And so it felt stressful to be like, you know, Oh, did Andrew suddenly go blind? So in Massachusetts, it was like, I'm just an out of the closet guy with a cane. And that's

going to be, and it was a great decision, but there was so much fraudulence because I was like, I could see stuff, but there I was like tapping around. So you felt like a fraud so much. And I still to this day feel like one really, Oh yeah. It's a huge part of this experience for me. Huh. Now, but how are you adjusting? And I know you cover this in the book. I mean, how are you adjusting emotionally, like with your wife? I mean, because I would have to assume that there was some fairly deep conversations about the future.

There should have been. And eventually, like writing the book forced them in some ways yeah uh but there weren't like like there's a scene in the book where lily and i were in new york visiting friends and her family and we went out to a restaurant yeah brooklyn and it's like very dark as restaurants in brooklyn are sure and i had the cane folded up in my pocket this was before we moved to massachusetts i folded up in my bag and i was like finding a bathroom is like up there with like you know going to get more popcorn or go to the bathroom at the movies like i just it's to Massachusetts. I folded it up in my bag and I was like, finding a bathroom is like up there with like, you know, going to get more popcorn

or go to the bathroom at the movies. Like, I just, it's terrible. So I was like, okay, I'm going to use the cane.

Yeah. And I had never talked to her about the cane. I'd never talked to her about cane anxiety. And so I just like produce it. I unfold it. She had not seen it?

She, she knew that I had it, but she'd never seen me use it. Oh, wow. And it's an intense thing. Like she, and it was like,

you know, it zapped her a little bit. So it's sort of like you're introducing something to her and simultaneously to her family and to the entire restaurant. Right. So now, you know, from her point of view, you know, it all converges on this thing that comes out. And so what did she feel? She was like, she kind of said to me, like, you don't need that here. Like, you know, like, why are you using that?

Put that away. And, and, um. That was, but that was, you decided to come out. Yeah. And it wasn't like today's the day. It was really just like, I don't know, I guess now. And, uh, you know, that was rough. That was a rough moment.

And it set me back, you know, but, but then. Set you back how? It set me back. Cause I was like, oh yeah, this is like, it does make me look vulnerable. And like Lily doesn't like it. And like she doesn't like it for a good reason probably. And like all the shame that I felt about it was like validated. And it's a shameful thing, you know.

And this is, by the way. At that point. At that point. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Today I rock it and I'm much more confident with it. But like talk to any person who's gone blind, and I don't care if they've gone totally blind or if they're in my position.

Like, the cane is rough. It is a tough thing to accept. Yeah. Because just like I said, like, it changes the world instantly. Yeah. The way they see you. And did you have to get cane training? Yeah, yeah. Oh, really cane training? Yeah, yeah.

Oh, really? Oh, yeah, yeah. I mean, for a long time, I was just figuring it out on my own. And then when I started to get training, they were like, oh, no, no, no. Because I would just sort of carry it, like, ceremonially, you know? Like, this is this, like, toddler, you know, like, kryptonite. But then they were like, no, no, no. There's a way to use it.

But I wanted to add just about Lily, like, to be fair. Like, she read the first draft of the book and the book and that scene where I was very much like, and then my wife, who is totally unsympathetic. Can totally see. Yeah, excited. She told me to put it away. And then we talked and it was like, oh, no, that was unfair to her. Just springing it on her like that. And so those conversations that you would imagine we would have already had only happened.

But then, but now, yeah. So anyway. What was that, though? Like, you know, after that. Like, you know, you get back to the hotel or wherever you're staying. Yeah. And what was that? What was that conversation?

It took me a minute to, like, simmer down, you know, but I think I said to her. In terms of how she reacted? Yeah. Because I think, you know, she was i said to her in terms of how she reacted yeah because i think you know she was like you look so vulnerable and i was like in in greenpoint like you know like fancy restaurant like who gives a shit like i'm gonna get mugged in the restaurant you know and her point was more just like she she wasn't emotionally prepared for it sure and she had an emotional reaction so it took me a while to realize that, like, you know, I think there's a way in which this experience is very, like, egotistical or like, like, like, it like feeds my ego a little bit. Right. Even though it's like a sad thing. And yeah, there's all that. It's also like, you know, like, this is happening to me. And so I'm the only person who has skin in this game. Right. And so you should just everybody should adapt around me. And, you know, the thing I realized with Lily was like, I have to make room for her emotional response to it, too. And like the practical changes that she has to do. And that is something that has taken a long time. But that is extremely important to our marriage. When you were getting diagnosed and stuff, and like, I don't remember what the timeline is.

Were you together when you got diagnosed? No, I was in college. Yeah, I was. So she knew going in, but I think there, again, there's that sort of functioning sense of denial that kind of puts off the inevitable. And then when it happens, it's still jarring, even if you know it's coming. Totally. Yeah. For both of us. Yeah.

It's still jarring, even if you know it's coming. Totally. Yeah. For both of us. Yeah. And so when you've talked to other people who have lost their sight, have their experiences been similar? Yeah. That's been the amazing thing about publishing this book.

It's like every day I'm getting three emails from people. And it's awesome because there are like people who are born blind, people who have more vision than I do. But there's like, it's just very validating that like I captured something about this experience that speaks to other people with disabilities, which is essentially, you know, other people's feelings that you may not consider your own denial, their denial. And then, you know, the reality of of actually being that vulnerableblown in a lot of ways. And the way that, like, you'll walk into a coffee shop and people will be like, oh, let me protect you from the coffee, right? It's like, no, no, like, I'm good. I'll buy the coffee. So, like, it can swing way too far in the other direction, too. And so those first conversations with your wife and what was the arc of time?

I seem to be using the word arc a lot because there's really an arc here. It's not just a life story. You made a movie. That's right. You went blind. Right. Did I, though? I mean, because I can see a lot of stuff over here.

Yeah, I know. But I mean, well, that's relative. It's sort of like my dad not wanting to use his cane even though he can't walk anymore. Exactly, yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Or like he refuses to get a walker even though he can't walk anymore. Exactly. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Or like he refuses to get a walker. So he'll,

he'll hobble on a cane. I mean, I just, I made the joke though, because like blindness, people only think of it as a binary, you know? And it's like,

you went blind. Oh, okay. So somebody pulled the little cord and the lights went out, but like, it's like your dad with the cane. Like there is such a spectrum and right. And that's been such a mind fuck to like,

try to understand what blindness is and how much of it I get to lay claim to while I can still see six degrees of my visual field. And that's something that you are conceiving only in relation to people's judgment of you. Right. Right. Yeah. Right.

Yeah. I mean, disability and blindness is so social is like a weird revelation that I had like, cause if you're by yourself, you're just the dude doing the thing. Right. Right. Maybe you have to put some tape on a thing

so you can see it or put a bump dot so you can feel it. But that's not disability. That's just like you're making your house better. But as soon as you're out in the world, people are having judgments about you, expectations of what you're capable of doing. So yeah, it's an intensely social experience. Because my experience with you,

even in that brief passing moment, and I don't know you and I haven't known you for a long time. And that like after you and I had the exchange and you acknowledge who I was. And then, you know, after you gave me the book and I and I and I browsed through it and I and I learned a little more. But even before that, I said, of course, because you were looking right at me and you're looking right at me now. And then I was sort of like, well, he used to be able to see. So he knows generally where it's coming from. So even though you can see shapes or whatever, and you do know you can kind of center forms that are moving.

Yes, yes. But also you had a full life of sight. Right. So once the brain adapts to the compromise in your senses and starts to make adjustments. Yeah. You know, that stuff that it's already wired in, you know, based on sounds, you're going to sort of have a sensor

because it seems to me that people who are blind for a lifetime, they're always kind of looking off. I don't know if that'll continue if you continue to lose your sight, but, you know, you were locked in. I've hung out with a lot of blind people. And by the way, I still have some acuity too.

So I could even see like, that's a Gimme Shelter poster over there. Oh, yeah. Oh, so you're not even blind. I'm not even blind. That's what I'm trying to tell you. This is like a giant ruse that I'm pulling over America. This whole thing was just a, you saw a window and you're like, this is my time. I'm going to write a book.

Remember the dad and the cane. That's what it's about. But, like, I have hung out with totally blind people who have been blind for a long time. And they do, you know, lock into your eyes sometimes. And it can be disarming because you're like, oh, can you see me? But, you know, there's, like, this whole world of, like, Stevie Wonder truthers, people who think that Stevie Wonder's faking his blindness for similar reasons. Where, like, he'll, like, you know, catch a falling mic stand and be like, how could a blind guy do that? And it's just, like, making eye contact, catching mic stands, like, buying televisions televisions, all these things that people like think blind people can't do, but they do.

And yeah, it's normal. So the public misconception is you're only blind if you can't see anything. Exactly. And not only that, but that you have to mostly be led places and helpless. But now let me ask you a question about the Gimme Shelter poster. Was it because you're familiar with that poster or you can see the lettering? I can see the lettering. Oh, okay.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it is interesting the way that knowledge informs vision. In other words, like I have a friend, well, I'll talk about myself. Like if I know what something is or if I know where I am, it's much easier to see. You know, I've been sitting here for 10 minutes. Like I had a moment to sort of clock that. But like when I'm moving around, like weird things happen where I'll be like, oh, that's weird that that 11 year old girl has a beard, you know? And then I'll be like, oh, okay. There's like a, there's like a scarf

situation happening or something, you know? But like, so things like that happen more and more as I lose vision. But if I'm like in my kitchen and I know my back is to this East wall, I'm good. I can see a lot more than if I'm moving through the world. What's with all these short bearded people in winter? Exactly. Exactly. So, so how does that, well, I mean, now that you explained it, it's like, you know, blindness is, is relative to, you know, how incapacitated you are to do normal everyday things. I don't know if I'd put it that way. I mean, I just mean that like, you know, just, just cause you can read that poster, you know, doesn't mean like you have peripheral vision. It doesn't mean that you can identify objects on a table if they're too small. It doesn't mean that you, you, you can identify a person with a beard or a scarf. So, I mean, you know, that's legit. Yeah. I mean, yeah. It like

legal blindness, it's, it's such an arbitrary line, right? They were just like, okay, let's, we got to dry lawn stemware. Cause we can't give these benefits to everybody. Like when government assistance programs were built. So they were like, okay, if you can't read the giant E at the top of the chart with corrective lenses, you're legally blind. Or if your visual field has shrunk to the point where, like you said, you can read the Gimme Shelter poster. But then if I'm going to try to get up and leave your studio without my cane, I'm going to like cause $10,000 worth of damage. Nothing in here is worth that much money. Really?

It's $300 worth of damage. Yeah, there you go. Maybe $300. And it probably won't break it. So what is the process of sort of integrating your kid into this and then, you know, things you start doing? Because it seems that the thrust of this thing is that, you know, you're living a normal life. Though it is a disability, that the perception of what blindness is, is a misconception.

And that, you know, there's an argument to be made that people with disabilities, as they adapt, should only be seen as people that have to live life differently. I mean, the thing about my kid is amazing because like every new milestone that I hit where I'm like, okay, I'm buying a cane. What kind of cane? Like, and now I use the cane. You know, or like the screen reader, like my phone talks to me and like, that's this like a cult thing. My kid, like the only dad he's known is a dad with a phone that talks to him who uses a cane. And so for him, it's totally normal. And like, that actually is a powerful thing a phone that talks to him who uses a cane. And so for him, it's totally normal. And like, that actually is a powerful thing for me because I kind of see that normal, that normalcy reflected back.

Right. And I'm like, oh yeah, like this is just a part of our life. Right. And. Well, that's interesting with kids and how, because they are, you know, innately adaptive because they're growing. Yeah. So, so their perception of,

you know, if they're getting what they need emotionally and, and, and hopefully, uh, uh, physically that, you know, they're not going to,

it's like color lines. It's like anything else. If they're not taught that, you know, dad's in trouble, then it's just dad. Right. Yeah.

Yeah. And he hears me making comments. Like we're watching a TV show and there's like a sad blind person and I'm like yelling at the screen and he's like, all right, Yeah. Yeah, and he hears me making comments. Like, we're watching a TV show, and there's, like, a sad, blind person, and I'm, like, yelling at the screen. And he's like, all right, I'm yelling at the screen, too. Like, this is bullshit. Yeah. So, well, that's good.

So he's learning a certain amount of acceptance and tolerance in a broader way than just you running into him occasionally. Right. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He knows not to take it personally when I step on his feet. And how's your wife doing with that? Uh, you know, it's been a journey, but, um, yeah, we, we are in a very different place now than we were when I first started.

What were the fundamental, what were the, the sort of, uh, you know, obstacles other than the first initial cane thing? What continues to sort of. I mean, I think like any marriage there's, um, it's all about negotiating the sort of duties of getting through life together. Right. Right. And I think like, as my, my, the way that I inhabited space and the, like the things figuring out what I was capable of doing or how I had to change my techniques to do that. Like there were, there's all these, there's always these sort of like latency periods where I'm like, like, for example, she would just be like, I thought you were going to clean the kitchen. And like half of that counter is like fucking disgusting. And I would be like, really?

I like wipe down the counter and I'd be like, oh, huh. But then there's that moment where I would get really hurt because I'd be like, don't you remember I'm going blind, you know? And, but then at a certain point I have to be like, it's still not fair to like say I'm going to clean the kitchen and then do a terrible job of it just because I can't see like the kitchen. I can only see like a eighth of the counter at any given moment. So like, but you know, lo and behold, blind people have figured out like if you like split the counter into quadrants and make sure you just like wipe down quadrant one, two, three, four, like you can do a pretty good job wiping down. That's part of the adapting. Yeah. And so like, so, so there's the, but there's always that kind of like push and pull where it's like there's a moment where i'm like i don't realize

it she doesn't realize it there's conflict and then we catch up but see but but that is like sort of the fundamental issue and i think it's something you you deal with in the book in terms of uh you know you're locking into self-pity or victimhood versus, you know, adapting and functioning in life, overriding the self-pity or the need for special treatment. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's easier said than done. You know, there's a friend of mine, Will Butler, who lives in LA, who's a blind guy.

He's kind of like one of my blind mentors. He talked about this phenomenon, like the only blind guy in the room, which is like blind people. There's like a phenomenon. I think another blind person, another blind person, Georgina Clee came up with it, but basically it's like, you kind of feel good being all the attention that, that blindness brings to you. Right. And like you go into the coffee shop and sometimes it's shitty, but sometimes it's like, ah, sir, let me give you like our finest vanilla roast because you are like a weird, you know, and, and some blind people I think really get into that. And so, and in a marriage,

I think you can see it happen, not hopefully in mine, but like, you know, the, the partner becomes a sort of butler when it's like, oh, well he's blind. So I just make him his coffee every day and I do all the dishes and I do everything. And that just seems like that would not work in my home. And I don't want it to work in my home. So I do have to like fight against that inertia, but I can feel, I can feel it in myself. I'm like, we're sitting at this taqueria. I have no idea where the trash can is. We've got this full table of stuff. We've got to take the trash can.

I'm just going to let her do it. And then I have to rage against it and say, no, I will bumble around the taqueria and put that shit away because I don't want to be that only blind guy. But are there moments where you go rage against it and you go, no, and then midway through your wife's like, I'll do it. Yep. I would say like several times a week, yes. But I still rage. I'm still making progress. Thanks for the effort.

It's just that I can't imagine the sort of watching and then just deciding sort of like, okay. Yeah. I mean, the mowing the lawn is a thing where she's like, she's like, I'm really good. You can get a guy to mow your fucking lawn. I don't know. I guess we should. But yeah, she's, she's like, I like the mowing. I like mowing the lawn.

Yeah. I'm like, really? I should probably be doing this. But I mean, I have a whole chapter in there called the male gaze. That's like about my masculinity and like sort of the relationship between masculinity and disability. It is like a masculating a little bit. So what are the experiences with that? I mean, it's like, you know, like we go to the dark restaurant

and like I want to have my hand on her back guiding her through, but I like will put my hand on her shoulder and she'll guide me through. Right. Or like driving is a huge one. Yeah. Like I had no idea that driving and my gender were so intimately linked, but like I grew up in, you know,

I, I, I love driving and just, just like there's something that's like a loss that I feel a lot. It's like, I would just love to drive them around a lot. Yeah. Yeah.

Well, there's that whole thing about, you know, the, the dad who doesn't want to, he knows where he's going. He doesn't need a map. Yeah.

That's a, that would be that form of a masculinity i know where i'm going right i'm driving the car but instead i am the map i control that google maps app with you know precision i curate excellent playlists i i try to hold up my end of the bargain in the passenger seat well what has been the adapting process of you know writing and doing that kind of stuff do are there different i imagine that all that stuff has been made visually impaired sort of tools that you can use, right? There are tools, but it's funny, like, you know,

having grown up my whole life, being able to access the mainstream tech and like having the money to like buy a MacBook Pro, you know, every couple of years, whatever. The world of assistive tech, it's just like second class to the max. It's like you basically, you can only buy things at like the weird secondhand,

not secondhand, but like, you know, like the knockoff of the knockoff and like nothing works quite right. And like the, you know, hell, you can do some basic stuff, but like, it's just not the same experience. Well, that's interesting. So that world of assistive tech is still sort of like Soviet in a way or kind of like, because there's. Assistive tech. Yeah. Is still sort of like Soviet in a way

or kind of like because there's not a huge market. Exactly. So it's relative to, you know, what they can make. Exactly.

But it's interesting because like Apple, for instance, like your iPhone, I'm assuming you have an iPhone. Yeah. Your iPhone, I could in five seconds

get it talking. Like if you like, sure, you know, heaven forbid, went blind right now, you would need to seconds get it talking. Like if you like, you know, heaven forbid went blind right now, you don't need to buy a new phone. Like that thing has built in screen readers. So there is like a kind of interesting mainstream effect there, but like it's that screen reader, like will not work on a lot of the websites that you use. It takes a lot of getting used to. Now, is that a frustration you have? Is that something you rally against?

I am. There is like a dawning politic is that something you rally against i am there is like a dawning politicization that's happening at this moment with me and particularly with the tech stuff which is like what a lot of blind people are all about because it's like you know the problem of blindness is access to information fundamentally and so it is like an important part of it yeah but yeah i do get pissed off because you know it's like i'm a second class citizen all of a sudden and like i don't have a right to like you know, use the website to buy the pajama bottoms that everybody else is buying. Like, why not? Why can't I do that independently?

And you would think that given the number, I would imagine, of visually impaired people, that would be all you need is one blind guy in the main office. Right. And the head office to go like, hey, we're leaving money on the table here. But the head office is not going to hire that guy because they look at him and they're like, I don't even know how he's going to make a PB&J, let alone like swipe into the office, get to the office and like use a computer to do the job. So you've become active in this community in that way? Yeah. I mean, I wrote about him a lot. Like I still think of myself, I keep myself a little removed by being a journalist.

I'm like not quite ready to be like capital A activist, but I'm getting there. Yeah. Well, it's gotta be frustrating at some point. I mean, and it seems to me that, you know, if there is a silver lining, it's that it's given you a very specific voice. Absolutely. I mean, you know, you were asking me about being a writer and like before, what was I writing about? Right. I'm like, I ate a burrito and then wrote a thousand emails at The Believer. A poem by Andrew Leland. Nobody gives a shit. It's pretty good.

Or maybe a dozen people give a shit. But this experience, people are interested in it. But not just interested. It raises awareness. And there are people in the position you're in that just interested, it raises awareness. And there, there are people in the position you're in that don't have a voice. Yes. Right.

And there are people diligently working to advance, you know, technology and socialization of visually impaired people and make life at least, you know, as normal as can be for those people that are unsung heroes in this community. Yeah. I,

you know, it's funny. I like writing the book. I didn't think about that in those terms. Yeah. I, you know, it's funny. I like writing the book. I didn't think about that in those terms. Like, cause I think as a reader, I just hate it when people are like, and this book is important because it's going to make you care about shit. You don't care about it. And I'm like, but I don't care about that shit. So leave me alone. So like, I felt like I really wanted to approach it just as like my interest as like the guy who ate the burrito and was writing the emails. Like, what am I interested in from that perspective? Like the old me as a way to pull everybody else

in and be like, actually, there's wild shit going on in the world of blindness that you should care about. And then as a net effect, people end up with a like hallmark, like, and you should care and make your website accessible. But I feel like if I started from that like politicized place, nobody would care. Well, I, well, it wouldn't be honest to your story either. Yeah. Right. I mean, you know, it's, it's something that's going to unfold as I imagine writing this book that, you know, you, you were sort of just to do basic research in terms of, uh, certain parts of the book, you had to really engage with the community. Totally. Yeah. And like, who, who'd you reach out to? Like, how, how did you go about that part of, uh, putting this together? Yeah. I mean, there's, it's interesting. Cause I think people do tend to. And like, who would you reach out to? Like, how did you go about that part of putting this together? Yeah. I mean, there's it's interesting because I think people do tend to think about like the African-American community. Right. Or like the deaf community.

And there is like a building somewhere where they're like the leaders all gather. Yeah. And it's obviously not like that with blindness either. And there is a group called the National Federation of the Blind who I ended up writing a lot about because they're like the self-described militant blind people. And it's just fascinating. How so? Well, they argue that blindness is an incidental neutral characteristic and that like the only thing, like blindness is an inconvenience, but like it's like hair color. Like, yeah, you got brown hair. Yeah, I'm blind. That's well, that's that seems to be a there's a spectrum of that through all disabilities, it seems, in terms of the ones where people can function. That that point of view is important that, you know, that that is incidental.

We're still functioning people. Yeah. We just need access to to society. Yes. The problem is not in me and in my body. It's in you and failing to make a website that I can use. Right.

Right. Yeah. So that's a really powerful idea, but there's just some, like, interesting, sticky parts of it when you get into the details. Like, so, for example, when, you know how

on street corners you can push a button and then it'll chirp to let you know what's safe to cross? When those were first invented, the NFB said, hell no.

These make it seem like blind people are helpless. You think I can't hear when there's an idling truck, the NFB said, hell no. These make it seem like blind people are helpless. You think I can't hear when there's an idling truck at the corner? Like, no wonder there's a 70% unemployment rate for blind people. And then there was, like, another group of blind people who hate the NFB. And they were like, we need these. You guys are assholes. And so, like, all these, like, crazy battles, like accessible currency, NFB, same thing.

We don't want paper of different sizes for the dollar bill. Like, no, we can figure it out. Right. We're willing to get hit by cars and be taken advantage of financially to maintain our integrity as humans. I mean, you know, that would be what the anti-NFB folks would argue. So yeah, I kind of started finding out all these different factions and there's like, there's like this, also there's this very contemporary movement called the Disability Justice Movement that hates the old school civil rights movement

because they're like, all they care about is blindness. You know, and it's run by white, cisgendered, heterosexual blind guys. What about people with multiple disabilities

who are like, you know, queer women of color, you know, and this sort of like bringing intersectionality into it. And so I was like, interested in those battles and like, there's just like all these different divisions

and it fractures. And so that's why it's just like, uh, just like a leftist politics in general. Indeed. Yeah. Well, and also like, you know, I think I had an assumption that like, okay, so this is a marginalized minority community. It is going to be a largely left-wing group. And it's absolutely not like the NFB in particular is full of Republicans. And there was a, you know, I met a woman at the, at a Braille book fair at a blindness convention. And she was like, you know, I heard, uh, the NFB was a radical organization, but then I looked up radical and dictionary just meant at the root of things, but like, she's a lifelong Republican, but like, there's a lot of blind people who are like Republican in their politics. But then when

it comes to blindness, they're like anarchists. Yeah. Which is which is fascinating. Yeah. So what what who who what are some of the other kind of organizations that you've had to deal with? Like, I mean, or how what how what else is interesting about entering this community in general? Yeah. Well, so like in Massachusetts, when my doctor was like, OK, you are officially legally blind. Yeah. I got access. Is that a, is that a night for a big

dinner or? I was psyched because you talk about imposter syndrome. If somebody is like, I'm feeling like a fraud carrying this cane around. And finally like a doctor with a Harvard email address is like, you are blind. I was like, phew. Okay. I'm in the club. Do you have to carry that in your wallet? I had, they, I got a card. I could show it to you. you got a card. Yeah. Cause then it gets me to ride the bus for free. The NFB would say, why are you riding the bus for free?

Pay like everybody else. But I can if I want to. Uh, but so like once I got access to those services, then there's these like cited Massachusetts government employees who are like teaching me how to use a cane, teaching me how to use Braille. And there was that icky feeling of paternalism a little bit. Like they're just like, Oh, okay. So like this is, you probably don't want to do this. Right. And so, teaching me how to use braille and there was that icky feeling of paternalism a little bit like

they're just like oh okay so like this you probably don't want to do this but right and so that was a big divide of that really drew me to the nfb in particular because i was like where are the blind people who don't feel like this and who aren't going to talk to me like this and i went to a training center in colorado yeah um that's run by the nfb yeah that by blind people. And so like you're, instead of like the sighted Braille teacher who I had from Massachusetts, who was like, I don't know, man, you should probably just use one finger. I don't know why I've seen blind people use more than one finger. And then, you know, a blind person, it's like trying to ride it, learn how to ride a bike from somebody who's like, I've watched a lot of YouTube videos about bicycles.

That's not the guy you want to learn how to ride a bike from. And so it's the same thing with Braille, with canes. And so, but you're out there, I'm standing on a street corner in Denver with a blind guy. I'm wearing vision occluding sleep shades because that's how the training works. Like you want to learn the blind skills. You got to be totally occluded. And he's like, okay, do you think it's safe to cross? And I got to tell you like that experience of being in Colorado with those blind teachers, nothing has made me more, uh, comfortable with the level of vision I have now and where I'm heading than that, that month that I spent with those guys. I can't imagine entering that world where, you know, the idea of being, having black

out glasses. And then, you know, that, where you realize, like, my other senses are going to have to step the fuck up. Yeah, yeah. And that's how a lot of people with no vision live. that my first feeling is like the sensitivity necessary to navigate just by the different vibrations of what you're moving through, but also sound. It's very profound to me. It makes me emotional. The cognitive load is intense.

I've talked to people who have guide dogs, and one of the things that people say about why they get a guide dog is that it kind of relieves some of that cognitive load. Like the guide dog, to be clear, some people think they're like you tell them you want to go to Fifth and Main and the guide dog's like, got it. Well, let's go. Obviously, that's not the case. But, you know, like if you're walking down, you know, imagine walking down a block with a cane, that cane is going to hit every single obstacle between you and the corner, right? Like you hit the newsstand, you hit the construction cone.

The guide dog weaves you in and all of that. And so you can sort of daydream more. And I've heard from blind people who are like, I miss being able to walk and just like space out and think about stuff. And with a guide dog, you sort of can a little bit more. You still have to be like, okay, there's three more blocks before I got to go left. But the cane, like when I was doing cane training like that, I would come back. I felt like I took the LSAT, the SATs, like the P, I just like my brain was set because you're just like, okay, oh, that's not the turn. I would come back. I felt like I took the LSAT, the SATs, like the P I just like my brain was sad because you're just like, okay, Oh, that's not the turn. I got to go a little more.

What is this that I'm feeling like? Oh, that's not a door. That's a wall. You know, it's just like your brain is working so hard. Right. Oh my God. You can't be in your head anymore in a way that's just let it go. Yeah.

Yeah. Oh my God. I mean, you can, but you got to, well, it's only once you find your chair at the cafe that you can start thinking again. Yeah. So how long have you been legally blind? A couple years, probably like five or six years. And have you sensed cognitive shifts like evolving or not quite yet because you can still see the moving shapes?

No, definitely cognitive shifts. Yeah. You know, I use a screen reader, which is basically just my computer and my phone talk to me and people are always amazed at how fast that voice goes. And the thing you have to realize is that like when you reading, like if you're just like glancing at your computer screen right now, you know, if you were going to read a poem, you might slow down, but like, you're just like glancing through like menus and you're going to glance, where's my email go fast. And so the voice goes fast. But like it takes your ear. You have to train your ear to hear it that best.

I've definitely done that. And that's like a cognitive shift for sure. Like listening to this like very Soviet sounding robot read my email at like 100 miles an hour. And tactilely there's a shift too. Like I've noticed like if I try to look for something, like if I left my pen on this table and I tried to look for it visually, it would just be really frustrating. I'm looking around and around and around. Whereas if I could just like do the finger thing and I'll find it much more quickly, but like, I feel self-conscious it's back to the cane thing where like, if you were to see me do that, I'm like patting around and you're like, Oh, blind man patting on table.

It's so sad. But like, realistically, like my life is better when I can just get in there tactile. Right. And that's a cognitive shift that I'm in the middle of. So it seems like a lot of the thrust of being vocal is to change sighted people's perceptions. Definitely. I mean, I don't know if you're this way, but like so much of the time before I used a cane, I just like wished I wore a T-shirt that said like, I have 10% of my visual field. So give me this much space.

And like, there's also these other interesting things I'm thinking about. Basically, I wanted my book to just be like LED scrolling down my chest. Yeah. And so I think the impulse to write the book, you know, wasn't from this activist thing. Like, I want people to understand the experience of blindness. Although, of course, like I'm happy that that happens. Yeah. But really just like this, like kind of self-centered feeling

of like people need to understand what it's like in here right now because it's interesting and hard and weird and funny. And yeah, sure. But we're not like tragic, pathetic people. Right.

Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So like, how's the Braille going? You good? It's very slow. Yeah. It's kind of like if you were to learn German or something.

Yeah. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, it's not another language, but, you know, reading with your fingers, it's a whole new ballgame. But every night, not every night, but, like, I would say five days a week I'm doing it. Yeah. I've got a little bit of Braille. And so, you know, I, like, read the New Yorker. I, like, to get through, like, a single talk of the town piece takes me usually, like, two nights.

But I get there. So you can listen quicker. Oh, my I get there. So you can listen quicker. Oh, my God, yeah. But you can't. And you wrote a piece for the New York Times that was interesting about AI. Oh, yeah. And that, you know, that the, it was a different way of thinking about it because there was this, you know, it directly speaks to the difference between, you know, engaging with a person who is your son. Yeah.

And the convenience of whatever this other thing offers you. What was the event of that? Yeah. So there's this, you know, chat GPT. Yeah. In addition to being able to talk and chat with it, there's also like machine vision. So you can like give it an image and it will be like, this is a photo of Mark Maron standing,

uh, with Andy Richter at Disneyland in front of the magic castle. And then you could, and you know, you could see that picture, you know, but then you could even do the chat thing and you can say like, tell me more about Marin.

And I'd be like, he's wearing a Pantera shirt and ill fitting pants, you know, that can really do the right thing. Right. And for blind people, as you can imagine, this is transformative. And so it's in beta right now, but it's rolling out. So there's this app that as a blind person, like you can hold it up to your fridge and it's like, you've got three quarters of a quart of milk and the expiration date is way past due. And so the piece I wrote, you know, was talking about that. And, you know, I had this experience recently where we went to a Mexican restaurant for the first time since the pandemic. And I was like, oh, shit, I can't read the menu anymore because, you know, it was like up on the boards.

Right, right. And there was this question of like, do I like take a picture and use my phone's, you know, AI to read it, which I can do. I don't have that like the super chat GPT thing yet, but there's still things I could do or like find the menu online and then I could blow it up big enough to read or use text to speech. And I was like, I'm just, I don't feel like doing any of that. But there is actually, there is a few options.

Oh, totally. And I'm delighted that there's, to be clear, like my piece was not like fuck accessibility. of course. Yeah. But,

but then just the reality of my experience was I was like, Hey Lily, what like remind me what the taco options are again. And then my son got all, he piped up. He's 10 and he was like, let me tell him. And it ended up being this like really lovely exchange between us that was better than anything that would have happened. I think whether I was reading it alone with my eyes, if I were able to, or with like the chat GPT thing. thing. And I, so the piece that I wrote was just sort of like, let's not lose sight of the, the sort of interdependence that, uh, is a really valuable part of the disabled experience, uh,

rather than just this focus on independence, which is really important, but I think often becomes the only thing people talk about. Like I want as a blind person to be able to do everything on my own and the experience of being human and particularly the experience of being disabled is a lot about that exchange, that social experience of being. With any kind of person. Yeah. Like, you know, that is the variety of human experience. So, right?

So, like, your kid who you said has only known you as a guy with compromised vision, you know, has made, you know, his adaptation and it's sort of, you know, grown his empathy. And it sort of informs the relationship, you know, you have with him innately. Like, you know, he's not, you know, judging you. Like, he's not like, oh, God, I'm going to have to read this thing for that yet. But it is interesting to me that independence, what it says about independence and about having full independence means that we'd like to have the freedom to make choices about totally keeping other people away from us yeah yeah but i mean the independence is is is exaggerated for everybody right like this is something i thought about writing the book like okay i need a cane and a screen reader to to get through my day but you need glasses and shoes and a car and high-speed internet and like if i took those things away from you, you'd be, you'd be disabled too. Right. Everyone be disabled very quickly.

Yeah. If a few things shut down. Yeah. Yeah. And like the writer, Sarah Hendren has a great article in Wired a long time ago called like all technology is assistive technology. And it's the same idea. Interesting. And so I think that those sorts of moves where I'm like, I'm having this very specific, very sad, very like, you know, intense experience. And then I think if you take a step back and you're like, actually, like, this is all unfiled in the same category of like shit everybody deals with in a way. It makes it easier in some ways and also more powerful to just feel connected again. Yeah. And like what? So what is the prognosis? Are you going to go to black? And like what, so what is the prognosis? Are you going to go to black? I mean, I've talked to a lot of people with RP and there's a range. So there's a chance that like, I'm going to be an 80 year old dude and I've got like four photons left. And like, you know, I could like smash my face up against your, give me shelter poster and be like, I see a giant G, I see a giant I and do that. Yeah.

Or I know people who are totally black, they see nothing also. The interesting thing, getting back to your dad in the cane, is at a certain point, what's the point of smashing my face up against your poster? Sure, yeah, yeah. That's not doing me any favors. It's pride. No, it's not pride.

It's more just like, it's like efficiency. It's like, what am I getting out of smashing my face up against that poster in the end? Like if you, if you were to just say like, if I said, Hey, I'm interested, I've never been in Mark's garage. Like, tell me, describe it for me. And you're like, I got the, point would be not surrendering. Oh. Wait, how would I be surrendering? No, no, I mean it's like you have these other options, and you're choosing to smash your face up against. Why would you be choosing to do that? The choice to smash my face is a bad option, I think.

A bad option, but— It's clinging to sight, and I don't want to cling. That's what I mean. Yeah. Isn't that pride? Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know if it's pride. I mean, I think it's fear.

And I think I got to be careful because there's a lot of blind people who are very much in that clinging place. Yeah. And I have been there and there's still parts of me that are clinging a lot. Yeah, sure, sure. I guess that's different. It is that an aggressive, it's not quite denial, but it's a desire to still have that thing. It is denial. Yeah.

Yeah. You know, and it's still there, but, but, but it, but it like, is it really helping you out?

Like, what is the point? At what point do you just sort of like, all right, yeah, give me the walker. Exactly. Right.

Right. And like, why am I forcing myself to like, walk around like this? When like, taking this time. Yeah. And then,

yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And that's the point. Like if I tried to do everything visually, if I was like, I'm not blind enough to use a screen reader, I can see, which is true. Like if I blow the words up really big on my screen, I don't think I would have been able to finish the book because my eyes fatigue because I'm moving so much more slowly now that I can listen super fast and be, uh, like I'm

efficient. And I imagine your typing is pretty good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Touch typing is an important skill for a blind guy for sure. Yeah. Well, it was great talking to you, and good job in fleshing this out. I'm so glad you chose to have a superiority burger that day and that we got to meet. This is amazing. Do you feel like we did a thorough job? I think so, yeah.

Good. Well, good luck with everything. Thank you. I don't know. Now I'm treating you sort of like, we'll see what happens. We won't. I'll accept it. Yeah.

All right, man. Good talking. Likewise. Well, that was a great human conversation. Again, Andrew's book,

the country of the blind, a memoir at the endight, is available now. Hang out for a minute, people. Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis

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that's Mark's type. This movie, it's in New York. It's morally compromised people. It's Sidney Pollack playing a shitty boss. We've got new bonus episodes twice a week on the full Marin. So sign up by clicking the link in the episode description right now, or go to WTF pod.com and click on wtf plus maria bamford is back on monday

show so whoo yeah get ready for that i i this is i didn't use the metronome i didn't use it this time i okay Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. BOOMER LIVES Boomer lives. Monkey and La Fonda. Cat angels everywhere. I just chased that riff. I don't... I can't answer for it. There was no metronome.

No nothing. It was just sloppy old shit. It came together, though.