WTF with Marc Maron Podcast - Episode 1468 - Bernie Taupin

Episode Date: September 7, 2023

Bernie Taupin is a songwriter responsible for many of the most beloved songs ever recorded. But he actually thinks of himself as a cinematographer, taking what he sees in life and turning those mental snapshots into fantastical stories. Bernie and Marc talk about the origins of his more than 50-years-long partnership with Elton John, his friendship with Alice Cooper, the influence of The Band, and the timelessness of his songs. Sign up here for WTF+ to get the full show archives and weekly bonus material! https://plus.acast.com/s/wtf-with-marc-maron-podcast. Hosted on Acast. See acast.com/privacy for more information.

Be honest. When was the last time you thought about your current business insurance policy? If your existing business insurance policy is renewing on autopilot each year without checking out Zensurance, you're probably spending more than you need. That's why you need to switch to low-cost coverage from Zensurance before your policy renews this year. Zensurance does all the heavy lifting to find a policy, covering only what you need, and policies start at only $19 per month. So if your policy is renewing soon, go to Zensurance and fill out a quote. Zensurance, mind your business.

Hi, it's Terry O'Reilly, host of Under the Influence. Recently, we created an episode on cannabis marketing. With cannabis legalization, it's a brand new challenging marketing category. And I want to let you know we've produced a special bonus podcast episode where I talk to an actual cannabis producer. I wanted to know how a producer becomes licensed, how a cannabis company competes with big corporations, how a cannabis company markets its products in such a highly regulated category, and what the term dignified consumption actually means. I think you'll find the answers interesting and surprising. Hear it now on Under the Influence with Terry O'Reilly. This bonus episode is brought to you by the Ontario Cannabis Store

and ACAS Creative. Lock the gates! Alright, let's do this. How are you, what the fuckers? What the fuck buddies? What the fuckniks? What the fucktuckians? There you go. What the fuckt what the fuck nicks what the fuck tuckians there you go what the fuck tuckians that's i guess that's the kentucky what the fuckers some guy tweeted at me i still look at

it occasionally said i hadn't said that in five years so this is a big day what the fuck, Tuckians? Bernie Taupin. Bernie fucking Taupin. Right? He's the guy who wrote almost all the Elton John songs. He's the songwriting partner of Elton John. He's been writing lyrics almost all the way. He writes the majority of Elton John's lyrics going back to the 60s. That's crazy. That's almost like interviewing a Beatle. So many hits. So many hits. He's got a new memoir coming out. It's called Scattershot,

Life, Music, Elton, and Me. And it's pretty great. I popped around in it. I didn't read it all the way through. A lot of times I don't because I don't want to lead them, but it's kind of the title and he'll tell you himself is this sort of like he was, it's not in a timeline arc, but he writes about Harry Nelson, about John Lennon, about Elton, of course, but he writes about the scene. He writes about meeting Graham Green. I mean, it's just sort of, and he writes the fuck out of it. He writes it, a beautifully written thing, this thing. And it's just a lot of life. He was a cowboy.

Serious. I didn't know that. Maybe I should have. I imagine there's some deep cut, rabbit hole Elton John fans who are like, pfft, how'd you not know that? That Bernie Taupin was a competitive cowboy. How did I not know that? Red Dirt Cowboy, Captain Fantastic, and the.

Yup, there you have it. But it was great. It was a fun conversation. So listen, I'm doing five shows at Helium in St. Louis next week, September 14th through 16th. Then I'll be at Wise Guys in Las Vegas on September 22nd and 23rd for four shows.

Bellingham, Washington, I'll be at the Mount Baker Theater for one show on Saturday, October 14th as part of the Bellingham Exit Festival. And all my October shows in Portland, Oregon at Helium are sold out. There's a Denver show coming up that just went on sale. Yeah, Denver, November 17th and 18th at the Comedy Works South, which I've never been to. I'm a Comedy Works downtown guy. But it was someone's big idea to get me out to the suburbs. Not mine.

We'll see how it goes. I usually do well in Denver, but that's going to, that should be up. That should be up for you. Denver people, more dates forthcoming. The November 11th date in Albuquerque,

that should be going up on sale soon. Be at the chemo, but I don't think it's up there yet, but we'll see. Not many people go to Albuquerque, that should be going up on sale soon, be it the chemo, but I don't think it's up there yet, but we'll see. Not many people go to Albuquerque. For some reason, it's not a great market for some reason. But I grew up there, and I've been looking at that chemo theater since I was a kid. The front of the place is kind of beautiful. It's like an old kind of New Mexico-style deco structure.

It's like an old kind of New Mexico style deco structure. And I've always, I remember years ago, there was a comedy competition in New Mexico. I don't know if it was regional. I don't know if Colorado was involved. But I remember the winner got to perform at the chemo. And I was not him. But anyway, I will be playing there. And it'll be a homecoming. And it'll be something.

Yes. So I think I told you guys about, yeah, I definitely told you that. I've been watching these Don Rickles clips, and they've been going around. I talked to Bill Hader about it, and he's been texting me Rickles stuff and Jonathan Winter stuff. It was just sort of in the ether. It's always there on YouTube. But there was a while there I was like finding great comfort in watching Rickles seethe in Dangerfield. But it turns out, and I'm just finding out about this, that the Don Rickles channel on YouTube has been releasing never before seen specials. And today they, they just released Don Rickles live in Toronto. Now look, you can have

your opinion about Don Rickles and whatever you want, but, uh, if you like Don Rickles, you can go check it out for free on YouTube at the Don Rickles channel. For me, I always see a way to love that guy. So fridge guy update. The Ukrainian fridge guy, Alex is what they call him. As some of you who have been following, you know, he came with his son and it was quite a breakdown. The freezer door hinge broke off, sending ball bearings all over the place. I didn't have the proper valve downstairs. I was wrong about it. And this has been going on for months, for months with this guy. To the point where if he says he's going to come by and fix something, I just take it with a grain of salt.

and fix something, I just take it with a grain of salt. So as some of you know, at the last visit, because the hinge broke, my freezer drawer door has been propped shut with one of the freezer shelves from the inside. And that's been going on for a week or so, even though he got the hinge last week. So it all began again. When are you coming to like, like one of the last texts I sent, look, I get it, man. I'll get a new fridge. Fuck it. Just come fix the hinge.

So I don't have this, this, you know, this propped up door. I can't use the freezer. Just, you know, just, let's just forget about it. Let's call it a day. Let's admit defeat and move on. And he's like, no, I'll come tomorrow. And then that day it was like, I didn't know it was a holiday. I'll come tomorrow. And I'm like, all right. When he's like 12 and three, that was yesterday. So I'm figuring like, well, that's not going to happen. So I went out to lunch

and right when I got out to lunch at 1204, he's calling me. He's like, I'm in front of your house. to lunch at 12.04. He's calling me. He's like, I'm in front of your house. And I'm like, ah, fuck. Make the food to go. Let's go. We've got to go back.

Ran back to the house. And he was there with his son again. So I expected fireworks. I expected, you know, just insanity. He's like, no, today is it. We fix it today. And they pulled the freezer out, they're chipping ice off They replace the hinge And then he's, you know, he says to me, he says

Okay, so he's holding up a thing that's got two tubes on it With some other valve or thing that goes into something else He's like, I can't, you know, put this in because somebody, I don't know if a manufacturer or a installation, I don't know. Uh, they twist tied it in the back. So I can't, uh, I can't, I can't get at it. And I'm like, what do you want to do? Can you just move the fridge out?

He's like, ah, ah let me let me think about it i'm like okay don't yell at me i'm like so he thinks about he's like i come back i'm like of course i mean why why break up this thing we got going there's no no reason to break it up let's let's just keep doing this for as long as you want. I'm on board. But then somebody put it in my head that there's a racket that some people run with where they come to fix the fish and then they slowly keep breaking it until you keep getting more and more parts. But this is not the case. This guy is a veteran fridge,

madman repair guy. You know, this is his, you know, Leviathan man. This, my fridge is his, you know, Leviathan, man. This, my fridge is his fucking Moby Dick. And he's going to, he's going to fix it because like this, like this has been going on for months.

I'm telling you today and yesterday I said, do you want money? He's like, no, no money until we fix. Then I'm like, how much is it going to cost then? As much as a new refrigerator? He goes, nope, maybe 70%. And I was like, holy shit. Well, that's like this kind of fridge, like $10,000. But I think he was kidding because I pressed him on it.

I said, tell me the truth. How much is this all going to cost eventually? He's like, well, maybe 400. And I'm like, fine. All right. Well, we're in. And I look forward to seeing you again on your schedule, of course. So I'll just text you for a while until I get aggravated. And then I'll, I'll tell you, I'm going to buy a new fridge and then you'll come within, you know, three to four days after that. I talked to Naomi Wolf. Whoa, I just fucked it up. I just did her biggest nightmare. I just set up her entire new book. I talked to Naomi Klein and the basis for this whole book that

really turns out to be about late stage capitalism, encroaching fascism, the nature of the tribalized narrative of the second reality, what she calls the mirror world of the right-wing infrastructure, media infrastructure. But it covers a lot of stuff, man. But the basis of it is her being confused with Naomi Wolf. That's what struck the cord eventually and got her into the entire portal of this amazing book she wrote, which I read thoroughly and studied and underlined. I've been wanting to meet Naomi Klein for my entire life, it seems like. I never met her at Air America. I think she was there once or twice and I just wasn't around. I've just been impressed and blown away by her brain and and just her output is spectacular as a liberal guy.

He's full leftist. And, you know, I read that book and I feel a little guilty and a little like I'm not doing my part. But nonetheless, we got to really kind of have a talk jam here for about an hour. And it was just a highlight of my life. So that's going to happen. You'll hear that on Monday. Naomi Klein. Her new book is called Doppelganger, A Trip Into the Mirror World. Her new book is called Doppelganger, A Trip Into the Mirror World I don't know if you've read No Logo or Shock Doctrine or any of her other stuff

But massive thinker, just great I was so happy it went well Now, on another note, I don't know if I'm losing my mind or this is natural. So, okay, here's what happens. Badlands, the Terrence Malick film starring Martin Sheen and Sissy Spacek. This is the big Terrence Malick movie. I think it's probably the first one that really established him as sort of an auteur and a genius, if you want to throw that word around. This is sort of his early masterpiece about these two. He turns out to be a killer. I think it's based on that guy. I think his name's Starkweather, and she's this teenage girl who he kind of kills her dad and drags her along for the ride. who he kind of kills her dad and drags her along for the ride. It's a great movie.

It's a challenging movie emotionally, but it's, I think, one of the great antihero movies of the 70s because despite the psychopathy of Martin Sheen's character and the nature of their relationship, you still kind of like the guy it's fucked up but anyway so i tell kit let's go you know i've seen it but it's been a while and i said it's about a killer it's a guy who kills people for no reason out on the road out on the great plains and sissy's basic Martin Sheen, Warren Oates. She goes, look,

as long as they don't kill animals, I'm fine. I'm like, they don't kill animals. Uh, it's just people. And she's like, okay,

I can handle that. I just don't want to see any animals being killed. And literally within the first 10 to 15 minutes of the film, Warren Oates shoots a dog for no reason. And Kit loudly, because she's Chicago, she goes, I can't believe you. I can't believe you. I mean, what the fuck? And I'm like, I didn't remember. She's like, I'm concerned that we're going to have to leave the theater.

She's like loudly yelling at me because they killed the dog. And I'm like, it didn't even look at the, it didn't even look that real. It didn't even look that real. It's, it's not, you know, it's not real. She's like, I know. And there was a, there was a dead cow in it earlier. Cause he worked. So, so I could tell she's mad sitting next to me. And I'm like, oh my God, I fucked this up. She was mad. And then we sat there for a while and eventually I could feel her soften up a bit. And then I realized after about another 20 minutes, I leaned in and said, uh, I don't remember this movie at all. And she laughed and then about 10 more minutes went by. And I said, uh, I don't think I've ever seen this movie.

I, I don't know. I kind of remember the beginning. I guess it's possible. I watched a bit of it, you know, but it was just, I watched collateral the other night, the Michael Mann movie. And I'm pretty sure I saw that when it came out. I don't know when it came out. It's the one with, and I'm pretty sure I saw that when it came out. I don't know when it came out. It's the one with Jamie Foxx and Tom Cruise where Jamie Foxx plays the cab driver that's been forced into this situation of driving around this assassin by Tom Cruise.

But I don't remember the ending at all. But I feel like I saw the movie. Same with Dog Day Afternoon. Like, did I see that movie? Or am I losing my mind? Is this a natural thing that some movies stick in your brain and some don't? Did I see collateral? Did I not watch all of Badlands? Should I be concerned? I don't know. I certainly remember them now. Collateral is a pretty good later Michael Mann movie. The conceit of it is kind of crazy, but pretty good movie.

All right. So, Bernie Taupin. This is the guy. Daniel is leaving tonight on a plane. Saturday night's all right for fighting. Get a little action in you. Goodbye, yellow brick road. Get back, honky cat.

Get back, honky cat. Boo-ba-da. Ba-you-do. Ba-do-do. B-b-b-penny and the jets. Goodbye, yellow brick. Did I already do that one? Love lies bleeding in my...

And you live your life like a candle in the wind. That's all Bernie, man. And Elton, but Bernie wrote the songs. You want me to do more? Maybe later. So the memoir is called Scattershot, Life, Music, Elton, and Me.

It comes out next Tuesday, September 12th. You can pre-order it now. And this is me and Bernie Toppin. Talkin' Toppin. you need delivered with Uber Eats? Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats. But meatballs, mozzarella balls, and arancini balls? Yes, we deliver those. Moose? No.

But moose head? Yes. Because that's alcohol, and we deliver that too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, groceries, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details.

Death is in our air. This year's most anticipated series, FX's Shogun, only on Disney+. We live and we die. We control nothing beyond that. An epic saga based on the global best-selling novel by James Clavel. To show your true heart

is to risk your life. When I die here, you'll never leave Japan alive. FX's Shogun, a new original series, streaming February 27th, exclusively on Disney+. 18-plus subscription required. T's and C's apply. I was texting one of my producers this morning. I'm like, so is Bernie a sir? Is he a sir? I'm not a sir.

I'm actually a CBE. Yeah. That was just last year. Yeah. What's the difference? Is Elton a sir? Yeah, Elton's a year. Yeah. What's the difference? Is Elton a sir? Yeah, Elton's a sir. Now let me make sure I get this right.

It's MBE is the lowest one. OBE, CBE, sir, knighthood. Knighthood. Yeah. What the hell you got to do to get that? She got me. I don't know why they gave it to me. I mean, I don't even live there.

I haven't lived there for most of my life. Well, I mean, but a CBE, but a knighthood, that's two more up. No, no, one more up. Oh, one more up. Yeah, no, sir is the same as a knighthood. Okay, right. A knighthood is a sir. Right, right.

But like, so why does Kingsley get that and not you? You know what? I don't really give a shit. No, of course. But, you know, it's funny. I never cared about stuff like that. Yeah. In actuality, it's kind of nice.

It's kind of a nice recognition, you know. And I didn't have to do the whole rigmarole of doing anything in England. There's no ceremony? Well, there was, but we did it in L.A., which was much more fun for me because it's like doing it at home. Right, of course. So it worked out great

because all my friends came and it was just a really nice afternoon. Did they send somebody out? No, no, it was done by the British consulate. Oh, okay. Yeah, it actually ended up being kind of fun, you know, and the medals. Yeah, sure. Kind of groovy.

Well, you got it in a little case. Yeah, it's in a little case. Yeah, I mean, that means something. I know it's like, like, it's very odd to me that Mick got one and Keith didn't. And that's got to be, not that Keith would give a shit. Yeah, well, Keith wouldn't have accepted it anyway, you know. And was apparently upset that Mick accepted it, which I don't see why, you know. I don't know.

It's, again, it's all just periphery kind of nonsense. But it's sort of interesting, though, how in those relationships that have gone on for decades between guys like, you know, you and Elton have yours, but Mick and Keith have theirs. Right. But there's still this kind of like, you know, you suck up. Why would you? You know what I mean? Yeah.

Well, they've just made up a different molecules, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's kind of astounding. It's something that you would expect. Yeah.

Absolutely. You know, Mick subscribes to all that. He likes that. He likes playing the sort of country gentleman. Yeah. Yeah. A few years ago, I talked to Alice Cooper, and for some reason, you know, he told me that you guys were really good friends.

And in that moment, I couldn't put it together, you know, how that would happen. Why is that? moment, I couldn't put it together, you know, how that would happen, you know, because I just saw. Why is that? Because at the time, like, you know, Alice, I always associated with a certain type of music, but when you really break down his music, the ballads are really the greatest songs. Yeah, but I don't think it's about the music with Alice. It's the man, you know, and I think everybody, everybody to this point today knows that Alice is just a, you know, all around good guy who plays golf, is a good Christian boy. And, you know, as he always puts it himself, you know, he's playing a character. Sure. So, and he and I are like two peas in a pod.

You know, we get on like a house on fire. We always have. Yeah. We were almost like dorm mates. Really? Oh, yeah. When was that? Well, I mean, late 70s.

Okay. After what? He had put out like two records? Oh, no, no. Well, we actually first met. I met him with Elton probably in 1970, 71. Oh, yeah. When he was still part of the band.

Right. So, and we ended up doing an FM radio show together, like a morning show somewhere in the Midwest. Yeah. And we were both on it together. And obviously back then, you know, our perception of him was completely different then we did think oh man this guy's gonna be a complete weirdo yeah and he was there with i think was it neil was the drummer of uh alice's band yeah i think i think that was his name neil big tall

guy yeah and like about six five you know so that was kind of a bit daunting, too. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But- And he was drinking then, too. Oh, yeah, yeah. No, I mean, and that was early on. So, yeah, he was there, beer can in hand. Yeah. And, but we just got on then, but we didn't really hook up till much later in LA. Yeah.

And we just frequented the same places. Which places were those? All the normal sort of places. 70s? Yeah, 70s, you know, like the Rainbow, the Roxy, the Whiskey, and what have you. Yeah. And, yeah, we just kind of gravitated into the same orbit and really got on, and we would just hang out at each other's house, like, every day, all summer. Yeah.

You know, just drink beer. Yeah. Watch TV. Yeah, it was in play, you know, play pool. Yeah. And we just hung out. We'd go out at night, you know, and that was the days of the Hollywood vampires. Sure.

And, you know, members would come and go, and then they eventually went completely. Oh, people on and off, like Keith Moon, Ringo, John Lennon on occasion, Mickey Dolenz, who else? Oh, Harry Nilsson. Just all the usual crew. As I say, many of them went on to different pastures, and I mean that. Sure. Eternal pastures.

Yeah. But, yeah, I think— But you and Alice remain? I think Alice, you know, Alice and I remain great friends. I just saw him a few months ago at his birthday party. He's out on the road. But he's always out on the road. And he's like Elton.

He doesn't have a phone. Oh, really? So if I need to get a hold of him, I just text his wife. And she'll give him the phone, and we'll get back on it with each other. But, yeah, we've remained great friends. Do you golf? No, good Lord, no. Oh, that's.

He tried to get me into it once, and the only bit I liked was driving the cart. Sure, yeah. That was fun and getting out in the open air. But, no, golf is not my thing. I mean, I'm a complete sports nut. Yeah. Which sport? Soccer?

No, no. Sorry, I'm making assumptions. Football and baseball. Yeah, yeah. You have to understand, you know, I've lived here since 1970, you know. Is it 1970? Yeah, well, I basically stayed here from the moment I got here because everything I wanted to achieve in life was in the U.S. So everything I did before that was a kind of push to get here ultimately. Well, it's interesting because, like, you know, in the book, you write very eloquently. Like, this is like a real book, you know.

You didn't have someone come in and listen to you tell stories. Right. You wrote the hell out of this. Well, I appreciate that. And it reads in the prose. It's beautiful. But, you know, even with whatever contention you have with the English countryside, you write about it, you know, sort of half resentful and half beautiful.

Well, I don't, I have no, there was no contention when I was growing up in the British countryside. Other than you felt like your father pulled you into this farm life. Well, I, no, and I didn't mind that. I didn't resent it at all. In fact, I loved growing up in the English countryside when I was a small child. It's just that my interests ultimately gravitated towards U.S. history, U.S. music. I think it's interesting because in the book, it's weird. I don't think you mention your brother in the entire chapter.

No, I don't. I've got two brothers. Because I thought, oh, this guy's an only child. He's out there playing soldier. Well, you have to remember also my brother and I were scholastically miles apart. He went to what they call grammar school. I went to secondary school. He had his own set of friends.

He was totally into soccer and cricket and all of those things. I was completely a solitary individual. In fact, even in the house that I was born, which was literally, literally in the middle of nowhere. I mean, there was no other kids around. It was just me and my brother. Even then we didn't play together. He'd be kicking a soccer ball around on the lawn. What's the age difference? Just two years. But I've got a younger brother who's 10 years younger than me. So he wasn't born in the same area or the same place. He was born later on. And he's, you know, a U.S., lives here. He's lived here for probably half his life.

Are we close? No, are we close? Yeah, absolutely. We just got back from his daughter's wedding. But he lives in Houston, and so he's a Texas boy. My daughter just started A&M. So she's there. Yeah, So she's an Aggie now, but she's on the rodeo team there too.

The rodeo team? Yeah, yeah. She's a big time barrel racer. Really? Yeah, really good. Very competent. Definitely out-cowboyed me. I mean, you know, I cowboyed for 10 years.

You did? Yeah. Hey, didn't you read my book? Not the whole book. What do you want from me, Bernie? If I... You haven't got to that part. If I read the whole book, then I'll just lead you and say like, well, in the book, so it's better that the stories come up organically. What was the cowboy period? Well, that started in the, well, it was something that I always wanted to gravitate towards. Oh, yeah. From when you were a kid.

Yeah, from when I was a kid. But, you know, I'd lived in L.A. since 1970. I was in the L.A. area all the way through to the early 90s. And by that time, I just said, okay, you know, you've got to go out there and live your dream. And so I did. So I bought a 30-acre horse ranch up in the San Ynez Valley. And you still have it? No.

No, you're not out there anymore. Because I don't cowboy anymore because I blew my shoulder out. But, like, when you say cowboy, like, what are you doing? Well, I was raising horses, and I was going out as a non-pro cutter. Do you know what cutting is? No. Oh, okay. Well, it's an event where you work with cattle, cutting cattle out and keeping them out of the herd.

I'm sure you've seen it. Sure, no, yeah, yeah. It's pretty complex, you know, so anybody who's interested in finding out about it, just go online and look it up. It's like equestrian ballet. It's amazing what these horses do. And you loved it. I loved it. I mean, it's the biggest, outside of sex, it's the number one rush you could probably have. It's just so interesting to me because I don't know you, and obviously everybody in the world grew up with Elton John's music,

and I always knew when I was a kid that you were the guy that wrote them, and on a couple records there's a picture of you. Well, on all the first albums, I think from the first album all the way up to probably Blue Moves and a couple albums after that, my picture was on the album sleeves, you know. And it was always like, who's that guy? I was kind of part of the band, you know. I was part of the gang. You had a pretty good haircut early on? Yeah, yeah.

Haircuts was never my thing. I never liked my hair. It was kind of a long one and then short on top. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It kind of varied, but in the panthenon of looks, my hair was not my number one attribute, I think. But it was of its time. That band in the 70s was right. It's probably why I shaved it all off now. You got rid of it? Yeah, I think. Right, but it was of its time. That band in the 70s was right. It's probably why I shaved it all off now.

You got rid of it? You got it all. Don't even worry about it. But I guess the point that I was getting to was that you were able to live this unique, like in the book, no one necessarily knows you other than the guy that wrote all these amazing songs. But the cowboy information,

I have to assume that's going to be pretty new information for a lot of people. I don't think so. I think our hardcore fan base knows me. Oh, really? Because my sort of pseudonym is the Brown Dirt Cowboy from Captain Fantastic. So that kind of opened the floodgates, and that gave me that character because that's how my character of those two sort of cartoon characters, Elton was the bright, flashy kind of Captain Marvel character.

And I was the sort of earthy, you know, cowboy character. So this has been like in your mind since you were a kid, but then like with Tumbleweed Connection, is that like that cover? Was that sort of a reflection of that? It was definitely I was driving the bus on that one. You know, the thing is, it's kind of interesting if you look back on that, because the album before that, which was what we call the Black Album, the Elton John album, which was a pretty sort of classically driven album, you know, songs like 60 Years On and a lot of those, King Must Die. They were very, as I say, had a classical bent to them. And then we did a complete

360 on, you know, on the next album and did this full on Americana album that was very much influenced by the band. That was your choice? Well, once I heard the band, I realized that I could write those kind of songs. Up to that point, I loved that kind of music, but I didn't think it was commercially viable. So storytelling, basically? That's because that's what I always wanted to do. I'm very uncomfortable with the term songwriter for myself.

I'm uncomfortable slightly. Well, I hate the word poet. Anyone who refers to me as a poet, it's like an anthem. You never refer to yourself as a poet? That's an anthem to me. No, I don't. I'm not a poet. I'm a lyricist.

But in your youth? No. I mean, I dabbled in poetry, but that was poetry. Right. It wasn't song lyrics. So the band, now, did you have an opportunity to spend time with those guys? Oh, yeah. Yeah.

They were friends of mine. In fact, again, sorry to say, in the book. Don't be sorry to say. Later on in the book, you'll read how Rick Danko and I became very, very close friends. He was so sweet, that guy. He was so great. He was the most kinetic person, though, I've ever met in my life. He could not sit still.

Oh, really? Now, I mean, a lot of that had to do with drugs, obviously, and it affected all of us. But for him, I mean, it never was a hindrance to him. Yeah. But he was the most kinetic personality imaginable. But he was also incredibly talented. Unbelievable. I mean, he could pick up anything and play it.

And his voice. Yeah. Well, that was the magic of the band, too. They had three incredible voices in Richard Manuel, Rick, and Levon. Yeah, no doubt. And then they had a great songwriter in Robbie. They were probably my favorite band of all time. It's interesting because they changed a lot of guys.

I mean, Clapton never recovered from the band. No, well, both him and George Harrison wanted to join the band. Yeah. And so, yeah, they had an incredible effect on everybody, but I can't emphasize enough how they gave me the courage to write the kind of stories and songs that I really wanted to write about. And it happened just like that. So after that classically leaning Elton John album, After that classically leaning Elton John album, suddenly we had this, you know, sepia-soaked Americana album. Yeah.

And people, what's great is people accepted that at the time. Sure. And we followed that on with Mad Men, which was kind of a combination of both. Yeah. And my first real vision of America because Tumbleweed was written, all written before we even came to the States. So it was your sort of fantasy perception. It was my fantasy perception of everything from the American West to the Civil War to characters that inhabited. And then Madman was what I perceived of America when I actually got there and drove out to, you know, Middle America and the American West and saw all the places that I'd only dreamt about and heard about in song and fiction and movies.

And I wanted to see the real thing. You know, when I grew up, Roy Rogers and Gene Autry and the Long Ranger didn't cut it for me. Right. You know, I wanted to see the stuff that really affected me was the stuff I heard about in songs. You know, the people like Johnny Orton and Marty Robbins were singing about. And then later Peckinpah and, you know, earlier maybe John Ford a little bit. I couldn't stand John Wayne, but I liked the Vistas. Sure, The Searchers is a big one, huh?

I'm not a Searchers fan. You're not? No, I never understood why anybody thought it was a good movie. It's got an incredibly hokey sense to it. Yeah, but there's that turn in that movie where John Wayne was willing to kill the girl. Yeah, but, you know, some of the peripheral characters were really, really boneheaded. Yeah, I agree. But I also agree with you about the Wild Bunch. Yeah, okay, well, that's number one for me.

But I was much more affected by things like High Noon. Yeah. Red River, I thought, was pretty good. Yeah. And then the early Peckinpah things, like Ride the High Country, was a great movie. That's an unbelievable movie. Yeah, and people don't give that the, I mean, to me, that's much better than The Searchers. Well, that's because he was a studio guy then, so he had to work within the confines of.

Right. Yeah. Right. And I like the Ballad of Cable Hoag. Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's more laconic and a little more laid back. Yeah.

But, yeah, Peckinpah was a master at that. He really knew what the West was like. Yeah. You know what I mean? Even Pat Garrett and Billy the Kid. Great. Even though, you know, the characters are a little off kilter, you know, Chris was, you know, fantastic, but sure didn't look like Billy the Kid. Did you see that movie Old Henry?

Oh, yeah. Oh, my God. Loved that movie. How great is that fucking movie? That movie was fabulous. Because, like, you know, when Tim's just on that porch with that slight angle, you don't know it until the end. Right. But, like, all the way through it. I loved that movie. Hardly anybody, I'm sure, saw it. I talk know it until the end. Right. But you're like all the way through it.

I love that movie. Hardly anybody I'm sure saw it. I talk about it all the time. Oh, good for you. I talk about it with Tim. I always push it. Two thumbs up for me, too. Oh, good, good.

So that's interesting. So Madman was really your interpretation, your first reflection on the country. Yeah, exactly. I mean, I sort of wrote it as a travelogue, you know, my first look at the vistas and characters that inhabited the heartland. Now, let me ask you a question going back to the band in terms of its influence on, you know, three primary British artists that we just talked about. I mean, what was it? Was it it was because it seemed like an honest representation of America? Because, like, all those guys were kind of deep in blues and, you know, Everly Brothers or whatever. But what was it about the band that resonated so deeply?

I mean, I guess you can't speak for Clapton, but, I mean, for yourself. Well, I think it—I mean, I think I'm speaking for probably all of those people that fell into the web of the band. It was completely different. I mean, it was earth shatteringly groundbreaking. You know, I mean, up to that point, in my humble opinion, they invented Americana. Yeah. You know, they had the balls to sing about stuff that seemed completely timeless and from another era and incorporated all of those things. I mean, from the moment that Big Pink started with those toms and tears of rage, you know.

With that origin, yeah. And you kind of go, where is this coming from? Yeah, yeah. You know, it just like it came out of the ether. Yeah. You know, it wasn't rock and roll. It wasn't country. It wasn't blues.

Right. It was just this, it seemed brand new, but it seemed so old at the same time. But all those were represented. They were all represented. But it wasn't. As I said, it seemed old, but it seemed brand new. It seemed so fresh. Yeah.

And they weren't afraid. It wasn't loud either. It was so subtle. Yeah. You know, and I can't, you know, I can't emphasize enough the effect it had on me. And it really, really was the blue touch paper after sort of hearing Marty Robbins sing El Paso years before. You know, it was a continuation of my education into what could be achieved lyrically and musically. Well, I think it's interesting that, and I know this about the blues as well,

that when you were a kid and you were listening to what was available to you that represented America or watching it, that there really wasn't stuff available. That you had to meet a guy who was an American to turn you on to the Lewin brothers. And Lefty Frizzell and Kitty Wells and people like that. But the thing is that that guy was sort of my contact to that kind of music. But a lot of us had those kind of people. That's why the people in Liverpool heard so much of that music because the merchant seaman coming back from abroad, coming back from the States. Liverpool was a hub, a seafaring hub. So, so much music came through that port.

And it's like you think about when Mick met Keith on a platform at Dartford, you know, and one of them had a Robert Johnson album under his arm. The Robert Johnson. You know that he didn't get that Robert Johnson album at a record store. You weren't going to find that there. There was another way he found that. And so that's all of my contemporaries and some of the few beforehand, you know, they found their way to that kind of music by the same kismet that I just happened to be at the house next door to an American serviceman. Yeah. Who was helping out with the British Air Force and had bought these records with him. And when I heard that,

you know, coming out the window, it was like manna from heaven. You know, it was like, you know, what the hell is that? That's not what I'm hearing on the radio. That's not Jim Reeves. That's not Slim Whitman or Roger Miller. That's the real deal, man. Yeah. Yeah. And so it must be, it just kind of must've just blown your mind. I'm getting like a little hairs on my neck just talking about it. But somehow or another, you and Elton were able to, you know, transcend form in a lot of ways. And it's a rare thing. You created your own sound as well.

Well, I think because when I met Elton. What year was that? 1967. Because, like, they re-released that record. What was it, the Regimental Sergeant Zip-Up? Oh, well, that was the first record that we ever made that never got released. Right, exactly. So it wasn't actually re-released.

So it's just new. Because it was never released in the first place. It was just shelved. But it's interesting because on that record, once Empty Sky comes out and stuff, it seemed like you guys were on your way to something totally unique. And that record more reflects the sounds that were happening. Well, I think if you're talking about Empty Sky, you're talking about what was really prevalent at the time.

Everything was, it was in the sort of ashes of psychedelia. the sort of ashes of psychedelia, people were drawing inspiration from science fantasy and science fiction, whether it was King Crimson or Procol Harum, you know, or Pink Floyd. Everybody was mining the same material, you know. And so I was trying, you know, at the time, I was to emulate that too because I was reading a lot of the same material. You felt like you had to? Yeah, I did. I felt I needed, I mean, I liked that stuff. But it was almost like I was grasping for straws because everybody was probably doing it better. Yeah. And I wanted to gravitate on to that sort of a more American-based music,

Americana country. But I guess you could call me in the closet at the time because I didn't think it would be acceptable, which again goes to the band. You know, when the band, I heard that, and I started hearing some of the things like Johnny Cash at Folsom Prison. Oh my God.

And, you know, you hear all this music and you go, you know what? This can, you know, this can be made palatable and commercial. And then, you know, people started realizing the same thing and were jumping onto the same boat too. But it's interesting because with elton and we'll go back to when you met him like you know he's not that guy is he

well elton is a sponge and and let me go back to what i say about when 67 when we met one of the things obviously that we bonded on beside the fact that we wanted to be songwriters we didn't really know how to go about it. So you both sent into a, what was it? Yeah, we answered the ad in the New Musical Express for Liberty Records. And did you know anything about? I didn't even know how to write a song. I didn't know what writing a song meant.

So the Brill Building was out of your, you knew nothing. No, no, no. I wasn't in that caliber. But you knew about it? I was grasping at straws. I wanted to learn how to do it, but I was incapable of it. I mean, I barely understood. I was only a few years out of realizing that the person that sang a song on a record didn't just make it up.

I thought when I was a little kid, I thought, I didn't look underneath and see those names in parentheses underneath. I just thought whoever was singing the song, simply it was theirs and they made it up. I thought that too. It took until like less than 10 years ago, I was talking to Nick Lowe and, you know, I believed like he was writing from some sort of first person point of view. Right. When he wrote The Beast and Me, but it was kind of a monumental thing for me to realize that no songwriters make

things up yeah yeah well that's that's that's the beauty of it for me that is the thing that i have always aspired to do is to invent to tell stories to lend from life but also lend from fiction create your own fiction. Mix it all up together. That's what's fun. That's why I think of myself as a cinematographer. I'm continually poaching from life. So tell me about, so in 67 you meet Elton.

Yeah, so we bonded on music, all kinds of music. The thing is about us is that we have always been appreciative of every genre possible, which is why I think our canon in general has included all kinds of music. You know, influences from, you know, I'm a complete jazzer. It's all I really listen to. Who are your guys? Oh, everybody. Yeah. Ellington, you know. Big band. Coltrane. It's all I really listen to. Who are your guys? Oh, everybody. Yeah. Ellington, Coltrane. It's Charlie Parker's birthday today.

Yeah. And it's not lost on me that the year I started was the year that John Coltrane died. So, you know, 67 I started and he left us. Yeah, yeah. Did you see a lot of those guys? I didn't see enough. I saw quite a few at Shelley's Manhole the first couple of years I was in L.A. I used to go there all the time.

That's interesting. So that's really your thing, and it takes a certain mind to lock into that. But it wasn't back then. I mean, I came to jazz a little later. When I first started with Elton, like Elton didn't listen to country music, and I didn't listen to a lot of soul and R&B, which he was totally into. So we blended all that. He'd say, have you heard this? And I'd say, have you heard that? And we would buy records. And we didn't have much money. But he had a little bit more than me because he was getting more money because he sang on the demos. But back

then, we were just jobbing songwriters trying to make a living. And so we had very little money. So what we had, what we didn't give to his mom, you know, as a throw-in for some rent, you know, we'd spend on records. And what we'd do, we'd go to this place called Musicland in Soho on Barrick Street. And we'd spend all our time in there. And what they would do is they would get the American imports in every week

of albums that weren't going to come out in England for another probably month or two. So we were gravitated to that. So we'd get all this stuff like Electric Ladyland or the first Leonard Cohen album, you know, months before it came out in the UK. It seemed to me that in the late 60s in London, it was crazy with music in terms of everyone trying, like Fleetwood Mac was around, Peter Green was around.

Right. And were you there when Hendrix came over? No, I was on the sort of cusp of, he went out as I came in, kind of literally. But yeah, I mean, it was a veritable minefield of music. And obviously, so much of the blues, you know, later on in the book, you know, my whole friendship with Willie Dixon, which was, you know, one of the biggest, you know, great songwriter friendships of my greatest friendships. When did you meet him? In the 80s. So he was old. Yeah, I spent a great deal of time with him and his family in the last few years of his life. In fact, I was responsible for getting him inducted in the Songwriters Hall of Fame because I was absolutely incensed when I found out that he wasn't in there. He wrote all the good songs.

Hello. And you think about some of the people they put in there, somebody who wrote a couple of songs in the 80s. Right. I was absolutely just went through the roof. And what was your relationship with him? We were just friends. I mean, I made my 40th birthday party. Somebody said to me, what would you like to have at your birthday party? And I said, Willie Dixon, just as a joke. Yeah.

And they got in touch with his people and he turned up. And we just hit it off and I hit it off with his family. Huh. And we just got on like a house on fire. I saw him in the 80s. I loved him dearly. Yeah, I saw him perform. And, in fact, I put together a benefit after he died for the Blues Foundation.

But anyway, how we started that is that so much of the music that he wrote, as I said when I inducted him into the Hall of Fame, I said the bands in the 60s in England, blues bands in the 60s, wouldn't basically have had a set list without Willie Dixon. Yeah, of course. 60s, wouldn't basically have had a set list without Willie Dixon. Yeah, of course. You know? Yeah.

And because of all the blues tours that came to the UK and Europe, they brought all that music and were respected far more in the UK than they were at home. Yeah, yeah. You know, they were treated like kings when they were treated like shit here. Yeah, it took you guys to introduce us to the blues. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly.

And so what we did is we took it back to the States. Yeah, it took you guys to introduce us to the blues. Exactly. Exactly. And so, what we did is we took it back to the States. Yeah. And so, it rebounded back here. Yeah.

But, yeah, I mean, if it wasn't for those guys, I mean, there would be no blues bands in England. And also,

it wouldn't have taken the jump that it did. Like, I'm a Peter Green freak. Right. And like, the way he played guitar to me.

Yeah, he was a magnificent guitar player. It was unbelievable and heavy and sad. It's like Mick Taylor, you know. Yeah, Mick Taylor, too. Mick Taylor's one of the greatest guitarists come out of England. Do you know him? No, I don't.

Never met him. I just assume everyone knows each other. I know most people, but there are significant characters that for some reason I never really ran into. So in 67, when you and Elton start doing this stuff and you're putting together, you know, I guess the songs that ended up on the regimental

Sergeant Zippo. Sergeant Zippo, yeah. What was the, how much were the Beatles hanging over you? Well, the interesting connection with us and the Beatles, I mean, I think the Beatles affected everybody, even if it was subliminally. I don't know.

But the interesting connection with us and the Beatles was we were signed to Dick James Publishing. Dick James published the Beatles. Yeah. So the Beatles would come to Dick James' studio to cut demos sometimes, especially Paul McCartney would do a lot of stuff there. And so there was that connection.

But, I mean, the Beatles affected everybody. In fact, there's a good story about when Elton, before Elton was making records, you know, he used to play on other people's records over at EMI.

Yeah. And we'd go over to EMI and our first encounter with a Beatle of any sort. Elton was doing a novelty record with an English band called the Barren Knights, you know, who used to do these send-ups of the Bee GeGs and all these, you know, contemporary bands. And Paul McCartney just walked into the studio one day because he was working in the next studio doing the White Album. Oh, God, yeah. And we're all looking at each other, you know, it's Paul McCartney, you know, okay.

Act cool, act cool. Yeah. And the thing is, this band, the Baron Knights, had supported the Beatles, so they knew him. And they're all going, hey, what you doing, Paul? Yeah. And Paul goes, oh, I just wrote this song, want to hear it? And he sat down and played Hey Jude. Come on.

No. And so Elton and I, it was like, okay, well, we're not going to forget that one, are we? And I was like, okay, well, we're not going to forget that one, are we? I was like, you know, not unlike the band. Like when I watched the Peter Jackson documentary footage, I think that they had that thing that the band had, which was this alchemy that you can't even explain how these guys just magically pull stuff out of the air sometimes. Right, and I think people try to overthink it too.

You know, people will just indulge themselves to points of insanity. Well, just trying to figure every single millisecond of the Beatles existence, you know, it's okay. You know what? They wrote some of the best pop music of all time, if not the best pop music of all time. Enjoy it as it is. Don't try to figure, you know, go into the studio and take the tracks down and see what such and such was doing. Yeah, it was so natural, though. Did you watch that stuff? Yeah, I did.

I thought it was a little long. A long, but didn't you find there was a humanity to it? I mean, they were around when you were coming up. But, like, for me, I'm like, oh, my God. You really got a sense of their personalities. Yeah, no, no doubt. I mean, it was wonderful. As I said, I could have done with a little less.

There were portions where it seeped a little into boredom, I thought. But then, you know, you'd get something like McCartney playing, you know, get back on the bass, riffing it and writing it basically in front of John on the bass, you know, playing chords on the bass, you know. So things like that were phenomenal. And yeah, it was wonderful. But as I say, you know, I'm not one of those, I'm not a Beatle surgeon who wants to understand every millisecond of their careers. So when you and Elton started working together, I mean, was it initially back and forth collective? Like, were you, you know, were you coming up with verses, alternating? Well, most of the first writing that we did was at his mom's apartment in the Northwood Hills in the suburb of London.

And, you know, we had a bedroom at the back and there was a piano in the front room. So it was kind of like our little Brill building. You know, I'd be writing stuff in the bedroom and I'd take it to the living room and say, here, I just wrote that. What do you think of this? And he'd go, oh, wait a second. Listen, I just wrote this to that last thing that you wrote. And, you know, he'd play me that. And I'd go, that's cool.

You know, we'll go down to Dick James Studio tomorrow and lay these down. Yeah. We'd do demos of them. And that's how we wrote all of those very, very early songs. Were they demos to record for Elton or for anybody? Well, Elton wasn't Elton at that point, you know, so there was no Elton. There was no thought of him actually being a performing artist. That came a few months later. So these were mainly a cross between songs that we were being somewhat forced to write for middle-of-the-road artists who, in those days, you know, depended on songwriters, people like,

that were currently popular, people like Lulu and Cilla Black, Cliff Richard, Engelbert Humperdinck, Tom Jones. Did they record any of your songs? No, no. No, because they were terrible. They weren't good because we weren't good at writing that kind of song. And then ultimately an A&R guy came to work at Dick James who was sort of, I think, bought in to modernize the establishment a little. And he kind of looked at our stuff and said,

quit writing this crap. You know, this is good, what you've been writing on the side here. And he pinpointed a song we'd written called Skyline Pigeon, which was basically one of the first songs we wrote that we went, I think we're onto something here. This is actually quite a good song.

And that literally got covered three times, I think, in the first couple of months. Yeah. And we ultimately recorded it on the first official release, which was Empty Sky. And so this guy really kind of started pushing us in the right direction, a guy called Steve Brown, who actually ended up uh producing the

empty sky album so when you like what is the because jumping around the book you you seem to not have a necessarily have a discipline around around the songwriting it just comes to you i i sometimes wonder i i'm completely undisciplined in certain areas and very disciplined in other areas. But the areas that I'm disciplined in are more banal. You know, it's like I keep a tidy house. I keep my clothes straight. You know, I'm slightly undisciplined in my work ethic because I'm all over the place. And I've got so much I want to do and say that I don't know sometime when to do it and when not to do it.

And should I do this today or should I do this today? Should I go in my studio and work on my art? As far as writing songs, I only ever write songs nowadays and in the last couple of decades when we're going to make a record. You know, Elton will call me and say, I feel like making a record in maybe a couple of months. You know, I want to start thinking about some ideas. That's when I'll start writing. some ideas, that's when I'll start writing. I'm not the textbook songwriter who gets up, goes into the office and that's a kind of Diane Warren thing, which is great. That's a professional songwriter. I don't think of myself in those terms. I've never thought of myself in those terms. As I say, there's a whole bit at the beginning of the book where I question what a songwriter really is,

and I don't think of myself as that. And I don't even think of myself as, I suppose I am a lyricist, but again, somebody asks me what I do, I say I'm a storyteller. What's interesting in the book about, like, you know, because you're very, well, read. I believe so, yeah. Yeah, and that, you know, there was sort of this interesting, you know, because you're very, well, read. I believe so, yeah. And that, you know, there was sort of this interesting encounter with Graham Greene. Right, right.

Who, you know, was arguably one of the greatest novelists of ever. In my estimation, probably the greatest, but I'm sold. Yeah, and it was just, even with the backstory of owning that copy of Mabocas Lolita and stuff that, you know, the actual meeting, you had to sort of frame it in a way that was, well, okay, that's what I got. Well, it was, again, kismet and, you know, a beautiful accident. Yeah. You know, it's just because I'd agreed to meet somebody at the Savoy. Yeah. And it just happened, you know, I thought, okay,

got to go to the Savoy bar. It's a bar that I've never been to and is legendary. Yeah. And boom, there he is, man. You know, and it's like, it's my dream, you know, next to hearing the band album, that was another one of the great moments of my life. And especially the fact that he was not dismissive of me. I wouldn't say he took a shine, but I think he saw that there was a true glimmer of interest there and knowledge.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a great moment when you meet a hero and they're not dismissive or assholes. And I don't think, I can honestly say that's probably the greatest accidental meeting I've ever had in my life. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's a good one. So it's not unlike you to just have a phrase come to your head, set it aside, and build it out later? Oh, yeah. No, absolutely.

And especially in the early days when I was really doing a lot of traveling, my pockets and my travel bag were littered with stuff I'd scrawled on menus, napkins, vomit bags from planes, anything I could get, a hotel stationery. I mean, I used to have a whole box of it. And then when it got to be time to sort of work on an album or work on songs for an album, I'd get all these pieces out and they'd have sort of first lines. They'd have song titles on them. I always liked finding interesting song titles. Um, you know, because when I used to

flip through albums in a record store, the, the things used to appeal to me would be albums that had interesting song titles, you know, um. Something that was kind of mundane, maybe pushed aside. But that was definitely one of the components that I worked with. But a lot of the song titles were taken from lines in the songs. Well, yeah. I mean, the title of a song is usually used in the chorus anyway. But you had to pick which one was going to happen. Yeah, yeah.

So, but I would, I didn't, I mean, I certainly didn't do the Bowie trick of just writing stuff out, throwing it in the air, and then putting it together like a jigsaw puzzle. Oh, yeah, yeah. That was a Burroughs thing, like a cut-up, yeah. Yeah, which is what he did. You know, that wasn't my, the way I like to work, you know.

But, yeah, I mean, I just collected and ultimately pieced things together. I just saw, it was so funny because there was a, which song did, I just watched, I just hosted a screening of Dog Day Afternoon. Oh, yeah, and Amarina. Yeah, it's the opening thing. And that was, Lumet was like, that's the song we want. Yeah, it Amarina. Yeah, is the opening thing. And Lumet was like, that's the song we want. Yeah, it's funny. I mean, everybody says that it doesn't really fit the movie. But now you can't watch the movie without hearing it.

And you understand it totally. Yeah. There is something about seeing those New York streets in the 70s. But this is a song that is basically a country song about the country, not about urban chaos. Right. But for some reason, it fits. Yeah.

And I think that's happened a lot of times with people's songs. You know, you don't think that's, I guess that's the fun of putting music in movies. You know, I think if I'd done anything else in my life, I would have liked to have done that as a job. That would have been fun. It feels like some of the songs, even some of the albums,

unfold like movies. I mean, I don't know how you think about it, but it seems like for some reason, Goodbye Yellow Brick Road plays as a movie. Oh, absolutely. Yeah, I mean, it's definitely the most cinematic of our albums because they are, for the most part, story-driven. I mean, if you think about it,

I think there's only like one, what you would call romantic ballad, love song, if you want, on the album. Everything else is pure filth and about, you know, huge human flotsam and unsavory characters and weird robotic bands. And, you know, yeah, it's kind of like a comic book,

a graphic novel, if you will. For me, though, that moment where, I guess it's, Jocelyn comes in after a funeral for a friend, you know, and then goes into Love, Lies, Bleeding. Right. It's like, that's like one of the greatest moments in music. Well, I'd like to think so.

Yeah, I mean, it's certainly a good, it kicks off the album really well. Oh, it's unbelievable. But, and again, it's like if you want to, it's like Madman Across the Water is, as I said earlier, is like an American travelogue. Yeah. You know, it's a primer for the American West.

And so then when you get into, but then there's a couple records before Goodbye Yellow Brick Rose where you deal with these characters. Yeah, well, I think Don't Shoot Me and Honky Chateau. Yeah, they kind of played middle ground, I think. There was a bit of everything on them. But were you always gunning for hits? Was that part of? Not me. I had no idea about hits.

Never. I think, and I'll tell you what, we never set out to write hits. We set out to write albums. But when I was a kid, I remember Honky Kat was a big hit. Remember, Honky Kat was a big hit. Well, I know that the one thing I do know is that Honky Shatto was our first number one album in the States. Yeah. And then Honky Shatto, I believe, had, I think Rocket Man was on there.

But, you know, Elton is the guy who knows every, every fact about charts. About his work. Yeah. Where they, he knows every place he's played, you know, what the capacity is, when he played it. Yeah. And he knows the same about our music, you know, and how it fared on the Billboard charts. I mean, he's a Billboard devotee. Yeah. He, you know, He just still follows it.

He follows the records, the artists on it. Crocodile Rock was a big hit. That one was everywhere. Yeah, but that was later on. Don't shoot me. Yeah, that was a big hit. And Daniel. Daniel was a big hit, too.

Where did that song come from? Daniel was based on a story in Time magazine that I read on a plane about the Tet Offensive and guys coming back from Vietnam. jungle and the urban cities were sort of ripped on by the people that called them baby killers, which was unfortunate. But the guys that went home to the Midwest were treated like heroes. Right. And so the idea of it was that it's supposed to represent the guys that went back to the midwest and couldn't handle that kind of adoration and it's a fictionalized story about one of them just saying i gotta get out of here and it's about his brother's farewell to him which is saying yeah yeah so it was based that, but you can take it many, many different ways. And that's the beauty of songs. However you want to interpret it, I'm totally down with,

I'm happy with. Well, I think that's the magic of music in general, right? Yeah. Well, I've said this a million times, songs are like abstract art. If you don't understand what the song is about, then come up with your own interpretation. Don't look to me. I'll probably make something up. Well, it's also just how it moves you, right? I mean, you know, because there's that repetition of things, and certain songs will grow with you emotionally as you grow.

Well, everybody gravitates to a song differently, you know, because it might pinpoint an emotional soft spot in their life, you know, whether it's their wedding, whether it's their first child, whether they were going through an emotional upheaval, a breakup at the time, and this song was something that comforted them, which is wonderful. I mean, I think that's terrific. So that person is probably going to associate that song with themselves and that upheaval in their life. And that's a wonderful fact.

I mean, that's the way it should be. I don't want to be selfish with the songs. Yeah, yeah. You know, take them and run with them. Once I've written them, once they're recorded, they belong to the world. Yeah, and I find that even if it's not tethered to an event or an experience,

that just the emotions of the singing of a song, it doesn't have to be tethered to anything. One that still has a lasting effect. Well, I like to think that our songs are timeless. Yeah. They reoccur over the decades. They crop up again, you know, and they keep doing it. And they've done it just recently.

What do you mean recently? Well, I mean, Elton. With Rocketman? No, no. The Dua Lipa-Elton hit, you know, which is a mashup of different songs. Yeah. a mashup of different songs, bringing it to a completely new contemporary graphic. So that in itself is pretty amazing.

It's interesting, too, because of him and the nature of the lyrics, but also there's something about Elton being so front and center as a personality and as a piano player that lends itself to a certain timelessness. Like he is unto himself. Even if the production is of a time, it's still an Elton John song. Well, I'd like to think that people find something in the song that is, you know, remains contemporary through the decades because they really have, you know, stood the test of time and they still sound great. You know, the production on them is fantastic, which is probably why, you know, we haven't had a ton of cover versions of our songs. I mean, we've had plenty of cover versions, but

probably not as many as you might imagine, because people always say, well, the Elton John version is the ultimate you know i'm not going to try and top that yeah yeah that's the one unless you go in a completely different direction with it you know but and we've had great people cover our songs everybody from sinatra to ray charlotte in fact uh the last track that ray charles ever cut in his life was one of our songs oh really which one sorry seems to be the hardest word. Oh, wow. Yeah.

And did you have contact with Ray about it? No, but Elton did because Elton sang on it with him. Oh, yeah. So, in fact, Elton's got outtakes of it with conversations between him and Ray talking about the song and talking about other things as well. Yeah. So that's pretty much a treasure because he died very, very soon after that. And, you know, in terms of, you know, managing success,

do you feel that, you know, for you it was easier to not be front and center? You know, because you were in the sense of like— Well, it's easier to not be front and center? Because you were in the sense of like— Well, it's applicable to my nature. I would never have wanted it. I couldn't live in a fishbowl. I'm such an individualist that I have to be able to walk down the street on my own. Yeah. I mean, if you look at Elton, Elton is probably, I would say, in the top 10 most recognizable people.

It's the opposite of that. Yeah. I mean, totally the most recognizable, in the top 10 most recognizable people. It's the opposite of that. Yeah. I mean, totally the most recognizable person in the world. I mean, some people can walk down the street and be recognized, but Elton John can't walk down the street on his own. I mean, he just can't. I could not do that. I mean, he has structured his life where it works well for him. And I've structured my life where it works well for me.

I like to be able to do things for myself. I don't have a staff, you know. I'm managed by my wife, you know. I have a temporary assistant sometime, not all the time. You know, I've got one at the moment simply because organizing stuff for the book, you know. But no, I have to be able to, I don't want somebody driving me around. But also then, like, you know, as you went through whatever your kind of party days, you weren't, you know, the press didn't get on you and you didn't have to, you know, throw. Well, I don't think they got on a lot of us in those days because social media

didn't exist. Sure. You know, social media, the way it exists now, you can't do anything. But the Stones took a hit. Yeah, but they were very high profile and they probably did things that were in the public eye. Yeah, yeah. You know, what I'm talking about is out of the public eye. In the Caribbean. You know, you could do anything you wanted to do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Now, you can't do anything anywhere.

You can't say anything. You know, it's just, it's a completely different playing field now than it used to be. Sounds like you had a good time in the Bahamas. Oh, I had a great time. I loved it there. I mean, it was kind of my second home. I kind of outstayed my welcome ultimately, which I did in a lot of places, I guess, at a certain point in my life. But I certainly made the most of it while I was at it. Never, no animals or human beings were hurt in the intent of my indulgences. And you got to hang out with Oliver Reed.

Yeah, yeah. And survived. Yeah. Was there ever a line that you got scared of not surviving? No. No, that's good. No, no. I think the scariest thing I ever did was to attempt to freebase in the drug days.

Yeah. And I had the good sense to go, this isn't a rabbit hole I'm going down. Yeah, yeah. I know where this ends. And I walked out of it and escaped what could have been my demise and was demise of others. Either you like your heart about to explode or you don't. Right, exactly. And the fact that five minutes later, you need it again. Yeah. It's not a pretty thing to watch. No, I knew right away that that was not going to work now how are you in elton these days good great just talked to him the other day yeah he's okay yeah oh he's good he had actually

had a fall the other day and had to spend the night and he's he's actually in the south of france right now yeah on vacation he went on vacation as he does at this time of the year always but uh he's got an especially well-deserved vacation after the end of the tour. Yeah. This is the last one? This is it, man. Done.

No more. He's done that before, though, hasn't he? No, not like this. Oh, really? People say that, and it's fabrication. I mean, everybody says that at some point. But let me pose a question to you here. If he were to go back on the road, don't you think he would be just pilloried and crucified?

Absolutely. No, this is it. He's done. He's not going to tour anymore. No more world tours. If he ever did anything again, it might be a residency and do a deep cuts kind of thing, which we've talked about. But it would be at home on home ground. Does he live here too?

He's got a home here, but his main residence is in England, but he's got a place in the south of France and he has a place in Atlanta also. Now, were there times like, and I know you wrote about this in the book and people have talked about it before and made insinuations, where there was a sort of relationship tension between you two? No, I mean, he always happily says that we've never, ever had an argument. He always happily says that we've never, ever had an argument. Yeah. Even in the time that we stepped away from each other in the, I don't know when it was, the mid-80s. Yeah.

It was basically after the Blue Moose album, so whenever that was. Yeah. And that was just, I think that was a geographical separation. You know, it became more prevalent. You know, it became more prevalent. And also, you have to understand, at that particular point in time, we had broken every record there was to break. We had three albums to go into number one straight out of the box,

which had never happened before in Billboard history. Three in a row went straight in at number one. Which ones were those? Captain Fantastic was the first. Rock of the West is next and Blue Moves next. Yeah, yeah. And then, you know, he played two days at Dodger Stadium. We played the biggest stadiums in the States. You know, we'd had number one singles in a row.

It's like, what do you do after that? You know, you've got to kind of step back and go, okay, we have to reassess the whole ball game here. You're not going to keep striking and you're going to strike out at some point and not keep hitting home runs. And I think it just happened by osmosis, naturally, whatever way you want to say. And we took a break from each other for a while, and he did an album with somebody else,

and I did an album with Alice Cooper and worked with a couple of other people. Didn't you do a Starship song? Yeah, I did. Which one? We Built This City. We're single of all time, apparently, according to many magazines, which I wear as a badge of honor. The song has lasted way longer than some of the magazines that depicted it as it were.

Everybody knows the song. Yeah, and everybody knows the song. And, you know, it's been good to my family. I'm not gonna i say in the book i think that you know i asked myself the question if i hadn't written it would i like it and i go no but i did so i stand by it yeah so yeah sure um yeah so and then we by the same baby steps we just got back together eventually and took up like it never happened, you know? Yeah. Well, I mean, and you keep, you know, there's still a lot of hits after that.

Yeah. They keep coming. Absolutely, yeah, yeah. And, you know, the thing is, because he's retired from the road, doesn't mean he's retired from the studio. The guy's not going to sit still, believe me. So we've got plans, you know, to go back in the studio the guy's not going to sit still believe me so we've got plans you know to go back in the studio at some point and um you know nothing written in stone yet but

it's like um he's still playing with some of the same guys from the old days like that original band well yeah they're toured with him yes oh absolutely yeah Davey, Nigel they're both you know still in the band I'm not sure what they're going to do now. I haven't talked to them about that. I plan on seeing Davey soon, so I'll see what he's up to. But I'm sure they'll find plenty of work. I mean, they're the best there is. So there shouldn't be a shortage of jobs out there. So is there anything that – two questions, and they're just coming to me now. Like, you know, out of the entire catalog, which one do you go back to in your mind the most as being a great example of what you do? I don't know.

I mean, there's several. I mean, it's – there's two ways of answering that. You know, people ultimately sometimes always say, what's the best song you've ever written? Yeah, that'd be hard, yeah. And that's hard. I think Duke Ellington said the one that I'm going to do tomorrow. Sure, yeah.

You know? Yeah. But as far as albums, I think it goes in stages. Yeah. You know, I mean,, I love Tumbleweed. I love Mad Men. Yeah. I recently re-listened to it simply because they did the 50th anniversary version of it,

and I had to listen to the pressing. And I thought, dang, this is really a good album. It really stands the test of time. I actually think I like it better than Tumbleweed. Yeah. And I thought, dang, this is really a good album. It really stands the test of time. I actually think I like it better than Tumbleweed. Yeah. I don't know why, but I have a soft spot for Tumbleweed. Yeah. But then I love Captain Fenton.

I mean, Yellow Brick Road, obviously, you know, is a bench point. Yeah. And sonically, that album is just phenomenal. I mean, if you hear a good pressing of it. Yeah. Gus Dudgeon is probably one of the most underrated producers of all time. Yeah. And sonically, that album is just phenomenal. I mean, if you hear a good pressing of it. Gus Dudgeon is probably one of the most underrated producers of all time. Yeah. I think, if anything, we had the best sounding albums of the 70s.

Yeah, for sure. I mean, there are a few other people that made great sounding records. Yeah. But then some of the later albums, I love songs from the West Coast. Yeah. I think that's a really, really fine record. There's an album we made called Made in England, which is a good sounding record and got great songs on it. And then of the later ones recently, I love the album we did with Leon. That's a good record. Yeah, it's a great record. And I wouldn't have known that they had this

love for each other. Well, we toured with Leon in the early days. Leon was at the Troubadour in 1970. Right, yeah. And once said to me in the studio, he said, I haven't told anybody this, but when I saw Elton at the Troubadour in 1970, I turned to Denny Cordell and said, well, my career's over, which was a huge compliment. But I loved that album, and I loved an album we did called The

Diving Board, which was fairly recent. I thought that was a very adult, grown-up album on our part. I think it was a return to simplicity, but it was very literary and very grown up, I suppose, is the best way of putting it. Do you feel like you've done everything you set out to do in terms of up to this point

musically and lyrically? No, I, you know, I... What's the dream? I'd love to make one more great, great record. contemporary but also inhabited by what it takes to make a great Elton John record and what is the Elton John sound at the Elton John piano the Bernie Taupin storytelling but put into a sort of contemporary. And when I say contemporary, I don't mean machine-driven.

I mean just that it sounds fresh and new, but it sounds like Elton John. You ever think of bringing in any of this new generation of jazz guys? I don't think that would work with us. I don't think that would be Elton's thing. He drives the bus when we're in the studio. I leave those decisions up to him. But who knows, you know, it's always an adventure. And as long as it's an adventure, then I'm in for the exploration. It seems like we were talking earlier about, I just remembered something that I was going to pick up on and I didn't,

that you talk about song lyrics as being similar to abstract art. And your work is abstract, is it not? Well, I started in the abstract genre, but... Multimedia kind of stuff? It's more multimedia now. I call them wall sculptures, you know, because they're sort of built on plyboard and built on cedar blocks and they're deconstructed instruments and burnt elements and elements, found elements.

And they're pretty interesting and they're pretty original. There's nobody out. The trouble with when I was doing abstract work was that you end up feeling like you're purloining from your heroes. Yeah. It's the same as music. You start out emulating your heroes. It's like filmmakers start out emulating their heroes and probably still do. Any artist. Yeah, any artist does that. But but you got to find your own voice in the end and that's what happened with me in art i felt that my stuff looked too much like hans hoffman yeah or franz klein you were

just painting i was painting back then now paint isn't even it well it it is involved occasionally if i throw some onto a piece but you know there's most there's text work in it um it's pretty interesting and you do it impulsively do you like just well i i kind of got derailed by writing the book because i went once i realized what i was doing by you these prose pieces, and I suddenly realized, oh, wait a second, I think what I'm doing is writing a book here. So I took it seriously and knuckled down and then got this deal through my agent in New York and got a very good deal on the book. a very good deal on the book. And so I just put nose to grindstone and literally spent probably four or five hours a day for about two years working on the book. Wow. That sounds like the most disciplined you've been about writing. Yeah, there you go. I can't argue without one.

But it shows, I mean, you know, it really shows that there's something about it that shows that you were sort of like taking it seriously. And, you know, I could tell you had like Graham Greene in mind in a certain way in terms of, you know, your descriptions and just how you lay it out. It's not like we did this and then that. Exactly. Well, as I make very clear at the beginning of the book, I never intended it to be A to Z. Yeah. You know, I always wanted it to be nonlinear. I mean, the opening of the book is pretty, you know, as it is.

Yeah. You know, it's got about my childhood. It's got about meeting Elton. But then basically once Elton and I get out of London and get to the States, hence the title of the book, Scattershot, it's a bit like I loaded up the shotgun, put in the shells, pulled the trigger, and wherever the pellets fell is where my narrative went on to. So it's geographical. It's all over the place. Is that how you wrote it too? Yeah, absolutely. So that's sort of It's all over the place. Is that how you wrote it too? Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

So that's sort of in line with the way you do things. I wrote what I felt like writing when I got to the word processor in front of me. What do I want to write about today? You know, the story of Graham Greene would come up, you know, and I go, I'm going to write about that today. Because that's one of those stories.

It's not just like a meeting thing. It's sort of like it had a lifelong kind of resonance. Yeah, definitely. At the end, when I realized that I was, the funny thing is that I never really looked at my contract for the book, you know, because it says you're contracted for so many words and so many pages. I didn't even look at that. I just wrote till I was done. Yeah. And it ended up being over 800 pages. Oh, yeah. So you can understand that I needed a good editor to go, well. But that's a great thing. Yeah. And if you trust your editor and you got to make something. Yeah. It

was tough to make some of the decisions, but I'm very, very happy where the pieces fell. I mean, I think we came up with a very, very condensed version of those 800 pages. Yeah, I think people are going to love it. I hope so. I sure do. And what about, do you ever, like, I mean, it's interesting how, you know, how kind of like, you know, culturally American in a lot of ways. Do you miss England? No.

There you go. Thanks for talking. Oh, thanks, man. Appreciate it. Right? What a life! Scattershot. Life, music, Elton, and me comes out next week,

but you can pre-order it now wherever you get books. Hang out for a second, folks. Are you sure you parked over here? Do you see it anywhere? I think it's back this way. Come on. Hey, you're going the wrong way. Feeling distracted? You're not alone. Whether renting, considering buying a home, or renewing a mortgage, many Canadians are finding it hard to focus with housing costs on their minds.

For free tools and resources to help you manage your home finances and clear your head, visit Canada.ca slash it pays to know a message from the government of Canada. It's winter and you can get anything you need delivered with Uber Eats. Well, almost, almost anything. So no, you can't get snowballs on Uber Eats, but meatballs, mozzarella balls, and arancini balls. Yes, we deliver those. Moose?

No, but moose head? Yes, because that's alcohol and we deliver that too. Along with your favorite restaurant food, groceries, and other everyday essentials. Order Uber Eats now. For alcohol, you must be legal drinking age. Please enjoy responsibly. Product availability varies by region. See app for details.

People, don't forget to sign up for the full Marin if you want the bonus episodes we put out twice a week. We had an extra bonus chat with Todd Berry that we posted this week and next week, some more movie talk with Kit, this time about Mulholland Drive. Sign up using the link in the episode description or go to WTFpod.com and click on WTF Plus. Next week on the show, author and activist, Naomi Klein. I told you she was coming. She's on Monday and Hannah Einbinder from hacks is on Thursday. All right, you guys I'm practicing my slide.

I listened to a little RL Burnside. Uh, my timing's a little loopy, but I, I nail some of it. Indulge me. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. boomer lives monkey in the fonda cat angels everywhere